Nic offers a solution for the industry's labor crisis. He discusses his approach to challenges and difficulties. In addition, he shares how he adapts as a foreigner to fit in and lessons from working in complex and political situations in his career. He ends with some advice for aspiring individuals.
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David Kong (00:02):
This is David Kong, the founder and principal of DEI
Advisors.
We are a nonprofit organizationdedicated to empowering
individuals.
Realize their careeraspirations.
We are delighted to welcomeNicholas Graff, the Associate
Dean of the Jonathan Center forHospitality at New York
(00:22):
University.
Welcome to the show,
Nicolas Graff (00:24):
Nick.
Thank you David.
Glad to be here and thanks forthe invitation.
David Kong (00:30):
It's great to have you.
I know how busy you are.
Thanks for taking that time.
A lot of people have probablyseen you at the NYU conference,
and you've been around thespeaking circuit.
Also, I think people know you,but some may not know how you
ended up being where you aretoday and doing a great
wonderful work that you do now,and perhaps you can share.
(00:53):
Your career journey startingfrom when you were, I understand
you were being trained as, youwere trained as a professional
chef.
Nicolas Graff (01:01):
Absolutely.
I, in fact, so I was born inSwitzerland, and I'm a high
school dropout.
My parents wanted me to pursue auniversity.
They themselves didn't go toyour university, so they wanted
me to be a.
To get a college degree, but Iwasn't I wasn't ready for it at,
1617.
I wasn't ready for it.
So I was able to do anapprenticeship, a chef
(01:24):
apprenticeship in Switzerland,which is a.
Regarded career pathway.
When you think about it,Switzerland and Germany, about
70% of the people never go tocollege.
They get a job and a career viathe apprenticeship model.
And Switzerland is doing justfine with that.
Now at towards the end of myapprenticeship program where
(01:44):
you, so you work for most of theweek and then you go to school
one.
About two days a week.
Towards the end of it, the theowner of the restaurant I was
working at went bankrupt.
And so gave me a shock and Ithought if I wanted to achieve
my goal, which was my dream toown a restaurant, I also needed
to learn a little more of themanagement side of things.
So it was luckily within theSwissa.
(02:07):
Educational system, I was ableto get back into higher
education and I got my bachelordegree from hotel school in
Switzerland.
And then I, I discovered newskills.
I discovered that I actuallyliked reading books and and I
was pretty good in finance.
At the end of the, at the end ofthe bachelor degree, they.
(02:27):
The school was launching a newMBA program together with H E C
Luanne.
And and they said, do you wanna,do, you wanna do an mba?
And, you can do it part-time andyou'd be teaching assistant
part-time.
And I said, is that is thatgonna be free?
And they said, yeah, free ofcharge.
You're getting paid for theteaching assistant position.
I said, why not?
So I got my mba and during theMBA time, I met with a number of
(02:50):
professors that inspired me.
Stayed with us Uhhu maker, who'sthe dean of U N L V and others.
And one of them, Mike Olson, whounfortunately passed away a
couple of years ago just reallyinspired me.
And he said, why don't you do aPhD with me?
And I said, fit with you.
Why not?
What's a PhD by the way?
And so I went to Blacksburg,Virginia.
(03:11):
And I remember we, we landed in,in Reagan airport in DC and we
were delayed by a day due to atotal blackout on the East
coast.
And so I had a car rental.
I took the cheapest one.
But when I got to the car rentalshop, they said you were
supposed to be here yesterday.
And I said, I'm sorry, We weredelayed and they say, okay, the
only car left was a yellowMustang.
And so I a bright yellowMustang.
(03:33):
And so I was upgraded and I tookthat bright yellow Mustang and
driving up to Blacksburg andsomething.
So I was there at Virginia Tech,got my PhD in finance and And
the rest is pretty much history.
Then I, I taught the Universityof Houston, went back in Europe
at Lesh, at Luanne, at at EssecBusiness School.
And and I'm now here at nyu.
So that's a little bit myjourney.
David Kong (03:56):
That's been a spectacular journey, but it's
interesting that you mentionedthe professor.
Is that help that guides you andhelp get you into the PhD
program and, No doubt that gaveyou a lot of mentoring.
It really speaks to theimportance of networking and
finding advocates and mentorsalong the way.
Well done.
(04:17):
Thank you.
Now you are West National, but Ithink you just got your green
card, right?
So you are US immigrant as well,and you lived in different
countries.
Tell us how did you Try to fitin as a foreigner in many ways.
How do you find the ability toadapt to different cultures and
different languages anddifferent ways of how things are
(04:39):
done?
Nicolas Graff (04:41):
It's it's, it hasn't been always easy, number
one, so you have to be Steadfastin your, in, in, in your
journey?
I think and resiliencesometimes, but I think it's
about curiosity.
You need to be curious aboutothers.
I've always, I.
Being a people person.
So I like being with people andso you have to be open-minded,
curious, of course, respectful.
(05:03):
And the curiosity also needs tobe curiosity about differences.
You need to be you need to beaware of the others.
And and be curious about, whythey may be different in, in, in
the way they behave or in theway they think.
And so I, I've made a, a fewmistakes along the way.
Mistakes of not understandingsome sensitivities.
(05:24):
And I remember when I got backin the US and I, I've been in
and out of the US for the past20 years.
Between my study and In the USon the west coast in Newport.
And, but when I came back aboutfive years ago the notion of
diversity, for instance andequity inclusion and all of
these subjects was reallygrowing had grown for years, but
(05:47):
was really front and center andwhich it wasn't.
15 years ago when I got my PhD.
It wasn't the same discussion.
And it's isn't the samediscussion back in Europe when
you think about Europe.
I lived in France.
It's not about equity, it'sabout equality, which is very
different.
It's the French said it'sliberty, equality, and what is
it?
(06:09):
Which is another word.
So that's the foundation of theFrench Republic.
And and so equality is verydifferent from equity.
Equality is everybody's equal.
Equity is you treat people in anequitable way which by the way
happens to be differentdepending on.
On, on, on each individual'sbackground and all of these very
subtle differences.
(06:30):
You have to be aware of them.
You have to be aware and curiousabout learning about them.
So that's, that, that's onething.
In terms of adapting to othercultures, other behaviors and.
I remember I, I took a, at nyu Itook a couple of courses we have
on, things like microaggressionsand it stuck with me really
(06:50):
because I took that course and.
A few weeks later, I met withsome new students and asked one
of the students, Hey, where areyou from?
And that student was Asian, wasan Asian student.
And and he said, I'm from LongIsland.
And I was, that's great.
And, but all of a sudden Ithought, is that could've been
perceived as an kind of anaggression.
You're asking me because I'mAsian, right?
(07:12):
You're not asking me because youreally wanna know me.
You're asking me cause I'm Asianand all of these things were
things I was not aware back inEurope.
And so you simply have to becurious.
To be able to adapt tosituations that are sometimes
very subtly different and notobviously different.
The language is an obviousthing.
I got used to have a fairlythick French accent.
(07:34):
I think I've been working on itsometimes it comes back and I, I
just.
Take it as it's a funny thing,as long as people understand me.
It just, I just take it as, witha pinch of salt and some humor.
I, I guess now in terms of beingan immigrant, it's been it's
been rough over the past aboutthe past, I would say 18 months.
I.
When the pandemic hit, I was atthe very early stage of my green
(07:56):
card application.
And and at the time when thepandemic hit, everything shut
down, the government started to,former President Trump started
to make decisions aboutimmigration and and so I was
worried.
I was probably calling my.
Immigration lawyer on a weeklybasis to know, is that affecting
me?
Is that new executive orderaffecting me?
(08:17):
And and as long as you don'thave some sense of, I had job
security, but I didn't haveimmigration security and so it
was really a hard.
Period.
With all the anxiety that camewith the pandemic, with the
black Lives Matter movementwith, all of these things, there
was a lot of emotions.
And finally when I received agreen card and September last
(08:38):
year and and that was such arelief and, you can finally make
plans and projections.
I guess it's the.
It's the outcome of beingresilient as well which I
mentioned early on.
No,
David Kong (08:50):
no doubt about that.
That's good advice.
Congratulations again on gettinga green card.
And by the way, you speak with avery distinguished French
accent.
There's absolutely nothingwrong.
A lot of people probably love itbe included.
So lemme summarize what I think,what you said about.
Fitting in, in difficult incomplex environment is that you
(09:13):
take an interest.
You Curious and you askquestions, but you're respectful
and you want to pay attention tosubtleties.
Those are just wonderful andsafe advice.
I appreciate sharing that.
Let's talk about working in theacademia world because it's
notorious for being complex andpolitical sometimes It's no
(09:36):
doubt difficult.
So share with us some lessonsthat you've learned working in
complex and politicalenvironments.
Nicolas Graff (09:44):
I think it's you have different systems in our
head.
You have the tenure tracksystem, and you have a tenure
track system.
And I've been working in both.
When I started at the Universityof Houston and Virginia Tech
Essec Business School in France,they were all tenure track types
of systems.
And in essence, what happensthere is you have series of
(10:06):
three years to prove to yourpeers that you are worthy of
getting tenured and you are onlyworthy of getting tenured if you
publish enough in academicjournals.
And and and.
So there's no, the way youevaluate it is really you're
evaluated by a committee ofpeers and you evaluate it then
(10:26):
by your dean and and so you haveto work laterally and you have
to work up, right?
So you have to make sure, youhave to make sure your boss
respects you, the dean.
So you have to manage up and youhave to manage laterally your
colleagues, because you are,some of them may end up in your.
Evaluation committee.
So you have to be also respectedby your peers which is a
(10:49):
challenge in in, in educationbecause you're not really
evaluated by students in thatcontext.
And which, has a lot of you canbe very critical about that
system that, put students awayfrom making the tenure decision.
So you have to be aware of that.
You have to be aware of thetensions.
Some faculty, they need torespect you, but not too much.
(11:09):
You don't wanna, you don't wannabe too smart to, create shadows
on them.
So you have to be just aware ofup and, the management up and
the colleagues just to make surethat you navigate through that
system.
Enough.
And I've always.
Done that by being, true tomyself.
So I've never lied because Ithink if you're not true to
yourself, it's gonna, it'sgonna, get you at some point
(11:32):
you're gonna make a mistake.
And and people will just realizethat you are not true to
yourself.
And so they will.
Keep that against you.
So you have to be true toyourself.
You have to be honest.
You have to be direct, butstill, while being aware of the
environment and thesensitivities of your peers and
bosses.
But you have to be, I think youhave to be honest.
(11:52):
And again, I think the, I alwaysconsider myself as a, a.
Continuous students because Ilearn every day.
And so the, I go back to thatnotion of curiosity.
You need to be also constantlylearning from, your peers from
others.
It's always been helpful to me.
Now, in, in the otherenvironment, which is the one
I'm currently in, which is anon-tenure track environment,
(12:14):
faculty are contract faculty.
We renew their contract everytwo, three or five years.
And the evaluation isessentially based on student
success which is something Ipersonally value greatly.
And I think it's it's a verygood system compared to the
other one.
And then myself, I'm evaluatedby my boss the dean of the
school who my contract everythree years.
(12:36):
So the political environment,I've had a hard, I'd say I had a
hard of time.
Adjusting to it at nyu.
I thought NYU is a giganticuniversity 65,000 students.
It's a 13 or 14 billion yearlybudget.
It has, includes a hospital,Langone hospital system.
(12:57):
We have all of these differentschools and colleges.
So it's a big, it's a big, it'sa big, it's a big corporation.
In many ways we not for profitbut, it's run like a
corporation.
We have a lot of real estate inManhattan as you can imagine.
And, that's complicated tomanage.
And so you.
Things, were going slower than Iexpected at nyu.
(13:19):
So I became a little bitimpatient early on in my tenure
here.
So I just had to learn that, I'mon different timeframe now.
I'm in my position.
I'm thinking about the next fiveto 10 years as opposed to the
next two.
And so I had to learn that andmake the adjustment and became
increasingly patient, whichdoesn't mean I'm not, I don't
want things to, to be, things tobe done.
(13:40):
But I'm, I've learned to bepatient in complex environment
and bureaucratic and politicalenvironment, you have to be
patient.
Yeah, no, I agree with you.
David Kong (13:50):
Yeah in complex and political environments.
But I also heard you say andvery wisely, a few things that
you do very well, which is yoube true to yourself.
You do a good job, you earn therespect of others around you,
and you are respectful to them.
They're respectful to you.
And by the way, don't outshinethem too much.
(14:10):
Don't be a threat to otherpeople that, that's really good
advice.
Let's talk about the spectacularjourney that you've been on and
the achievements you've beenable to accomplish.
What are some of thecontributing factors to your
success?
Nicolas Graff (14:30):
I, I think I've said I think I've said yes in my
life much more often than Isaid.
No.
Even when someone, like what Isaid when Luanne said, do you
want to do an mba?
That wasn't part of my careerplan.
I, my career plan was, do thechef apprenticeship, learn the
(14:51):
cooking skills.
Then go to Luanne, get yourbachelor in hotel management to
get the management skills andthen open your restaurants.
That was my plan, that was mydream.
But then they came up withsomething I had never thought of
and I said, it's free.
I can learn.
I can continue to learn.
I can earn another credential, Ican meet other people.
(15:12):
Yes, I'll do it.
And so I did it, and then whenMike Olson said, do you want to
do a PhD?
I honestly, I didn't know whatPhD meant.
Not at all.
And he, the guy who was smart,the smartest guy I've ever met,
his knowledge base was gigantic.
He knew everything.
I've always tried to findsomething he didn't know that I
(15:33):
knew and I failed to that.
So he was such a a wonderful.
Human being number one, but alsosuch a clever man.
And so when he said, do youwanna do your PhD?
I just said, yes.
I took the chance.
I said, I can always own myrestaurants because these skills
I carry them with me.
But if I do that a PhD and I'mgonna learn new skills.
I'm gonna learn, new knowledgeit's gonna expand my frontiers.
(15:57):
I remember taking courses.
I took so many courses instatistics.
Or in econometrics these kindsof things.
I, do I ever use them?
Yes.
Sometimes in my research, but Imostly use them intellectually
to frame problems conceptually.
And so it's been incrediblyuseful.
So first advice is to,successful careers say yes more
(16:20):
often than no.
And I remember when Luanne cameand said, Do you wanna be a
teaching assistant?
I said, yes.
And they said, okay, you can,you teach finance.
But in, in the English program.
So I took when I was at theschool there, I took the program
in French.
And my English wasn't reallygood.
And they said can you teach thatin English?
And I said, yes.
(16:40):
And I really didn't know if Icould.
But, I took all of my courage.
I took some English, additionalEnglish lessons, and I started
to teach in English.
And that contributed to mysuccess in in, in the program,
in the MBA program, andcontributed to my success then
in my PhD program.
And then, hopefully contributedto my success here at nyu.
(17:01):
So saying yes, even if it's,even if the steps seems a little
high.
A lot of people can figure itout.
So that's one two, I come backto that notion of curiosity and
always being curious about newthings.
That's probably the, with theSay Yes, be curious, stick to
(17:22):
your, to, to your truth, trueself.
And I did that in one of my lastjob when I.
I took a job in Switzerland andwith the hotel schools that had
been acquired by a Frenchprivate equity firm.
And there's nothing wrong withprivate equity firm but I think
they, their profit obsessionclashes too much with the
(17:43):
educational.
Goal of higher education.
So I took the job well, paidnear close to my family in a
beautiful setting, the ALPMountains.
And I, at some point I said, no,be true to yourself.
And I quit.
I quit the job and and I took astep back in a way I was, chief
Academic Officer.
I'm associate dean.
(18:03):
It's different environment.
NYU is much bigger, but.
I took a step down in a way butI think it, it's on paper
because the reality is I took astep up.
I joined the US in New York, nyuI've never met so many leaders
like yourself of the industry,thanks to the NYU conference.
So I think, by being true toyourself, you're gonna, you're
(18:26):
gonna find a way where youreally fit.
And I think right now I foundthat I'm probably here to stay
for a while, as long as NYUwants me.
Because I think it's a greatfit.
So I said a lot of time, yes, I,I remain curious.
And stay true to myself.
Even if it meant sometimestaking a step perceptually step
(18:46):
down, something you would thinkit's a step down, but it, but
actually isn't.
David Kong (18:51):
Yeah.
I, that's a wonderful story.
I, I appreciate you sharingthat.
And you talk about curiosity,continuous learning, not being
afraid to take a risk and alsosometimes recognizing that it's
not the right job and not beingafraid.
To make a change because youultimately want to be true to
(19:14):
yourself.
Those are just wonderful lessonsand advice that you're sharing.
I appreciate that.
Now I have no doubt many of us,we've all faced challenges and
difficulties and sometimesdisappointments.
And you alluded to the stressthat you were under during the
pandemic because you're waitingfor the green card and there's
(19:34):
some factors working againstyou.
And no doubt, that's atremendous challenge.
Can you share with us yourapproach to challenges?
Nicolas Graff (19:45):
First I think it's always better to face
challenges when you're withsomeone together, with other
people.
That's the strength of we,right?
Whether it's, it might.
In a personal life.
I, I sh I have a wonderful wife,Stephanie, and and we were in it
together.
And and like any lastingmarriage, I guess e everyone
(20:06):
who's gone has lasting marriage,that you're gonna go through
some challenging times what,whatever they are.
But luckily I was with Stephanieand so the morning I, I woke up
and, Totally panicking aboutthat immigration status.
She was calm and quiet and shewas able to take me out of that
panic mode.
And the next day it was her whowas having some anxiety issues.
(20:29):
And then, and I was the one whowas able to, help her get past
that.
So I think it's always easier toface challenges when you're not
alone.
I think that's number one.
And that's true in business too.
That's true at work.
That's true in your career.
When you have colleagues ofmentors and advocates who can
help you cope with some of your,career related challenges.
(20:51):
It's always better.
And I'm looking, everyinstitution I've worked, I can
have, I can say I have at leastone or two.
People that I consider as closefriends, that I've made close
friends with, and that Iconsider as mentors.
And so I can pick up my phoneand I can say, Hey, this is what
I'm facing right now.
(21:11):
What do you think?
And and so again, the power ofhaving friends and mentors and
partners that's probably one ofthe best way to to cope with.
With challenges.
The other one is resilience.
I think how our industry haslearned that from the pandemic,
we are gonna get through thisand I remember, when.
You were on the webinar with theother with that group CEOs and
(21:34):
Chris and we still had ArneSorensen in 2020.
Everybody was saying, we gonnaget through it.
It's hard.
It's probably the hardest thingwe've ever faced as industry,
but we gonna get through it.
And indeed industry got throughit.
And and that's a matter ofresilience and, Deep belief
that, there's another meaning tolife or to business or to things
(21:56):
that it's not captured in amoment that may be very
challenging.
And so you're gonna get past it.
There a trajectory to life or tobusiness that's the trajectory
is not gonna change.
There may be a bump in the road,but the tr trajectory is not
gonna change.
And you have to keep that inmind.
You have to keep the faith init.
I tell my students that,constantly because so many of my
(22:17):
students when the hotelindustry, overnight shut, shut
down and they were about tograduate you had to tell them
something, right?
You had to to tell them, there'sit's.
It's will be tough for the next,and we didn't really know back
then.
We thought it was like couple ofmonths maybe, hopefully by, and
it took longer.
But once it rebounds, then therewill be plenty opportunities.
(22:40):
People will be dying to hireyou.
And this is exactly what'shappening today.
People are dying to hire ourstudents and so you just have to
have to take the long viewsometimes and not get dragged
down by.
By the short term challengeyou're facing.
So I think deans would be my myapproach my, my different
approaches to coping withchallenges.
David Kong (23:01):
Yeah.
No, that's a, again very goodadvice.
You talked earlier about havinga network that you can lean on
and building a team that you cantrust and can get you through
challenges.
I think those things are soimportant and then having a
belief and a faith in order tofind the resilience, that's also
(23:21):
really important because whenyou're going through a really
difficult situation, you do needto find hope and that hope comes
from yourself.
You've gotta be able to must upthe courage to believe in
yourself and believe in a team,and that's how we can get
through it.
That's great advice.
Thank you.
Now switching gears, you'vetalked about, this industry's
(23:44):
labor situation.
Before the pandemic, the laborsituation, I would call it a
pretty severe challenge, butafter the pandemic, it's an
outright crisis.
But you've made a comment thatthe industry's labor crisis is
not due to a lack of talent.
Can you elaborate on that?
Nicolas Graff (24:04):
It's I think there's talent out there.
I think the challenge theindustry, we.
Now is there is talent and thereis, they are good jobs and it's,
there's no, there's a missingmatching mechanism.
And the matching mechanismhistorically was people really
wanted to join the industry.
The industry had a goodreputation and.
(24:27):
And a lot of people wanted toget jobs in, in an industry
that's, that makes people dream,right?
Travel is about, dreaming aboutplaces, going somewhere and
enjoying, new experiences.
But I think for a couple ofyears, and that predates a
little bit the pandemic, I thinkthe industry took it for granted
a few years prior to thepandemic and I'd say hotel
(24:48):
school and hospitality programstoo.
We took it for granted.
People want to do a career inhospitality management.
And the reality is not so muchanymore because the perception
that people have.
Developed, and that's beenaccelerated by the pandemic.
The perception is that the jobsare, frontline jobs only.
(25:10):
They're housekeeping jobs,they're front of the house jobs
and that there's nothing beyondthat and that there's nothing
around it.
So people are not aware of theentirety of the hotel industry
when it comes to jobs.
They don't know.
Jobs at the headquarter.
They certainly don't know jobsin the back of the house as much
(25:30):
as they know the front of thehouse.
They don't know that there's agood career in hotel finance.
You can be, director of financeis a great job.
They don't necessarily know the,revenue management.
They don't know that we haveengineers they don't know we
have all of that technologycomponent.
Now, nowadays in in, in theindustry, they still focus on
the central of their jobs thatwere very visibly affected by
(25:54):
the pandemic because they werethe first one that we had to, as
an industry, we had to furloughor let go.
And they were the most visibleones.
And so I think the industry, andI know that, eh, n l a and
others are working on it to chto change the perception, to
change the branding of theindustry when it comes to a
career.
(26:14):
Offering good career choices andgood career pathways.
It's gonna take a while.
It's gonna take a while.
I also think that we all knowthat in this country we have an
education, a higher educationcrisis.
So it's not, you have a hotelindustry labor crisis.
You have talent pool that's nolonger able to match with the
(26:35):
jobs that are available.
And on top of it, you have ahigher education crisis, which
is, it's in the news every day.
We're talking about student debtand issues about funding for
college degrees and.
I don't think everyone needs acollege degree.
Look at me.
I have one ultimately, but Ididn't necessarily have to have
one.
I could have had a great careerwithout one.
(26:56):
Because there is a system inSwitzerland that allow for
people to go through a careerpathway without necessarily
having to pay for college.
And paying for college isexpensive.
It's an expensive proposition.
If I look at nyu, NYU'sexpensive.
No question about it.
It's one of the best.
University in the country butalso it's very expensive to
operate.
(27:17):
When you think about the cost ofoperating in Manhattan it's
extremely expensive.
You when you have faculty andstaff in Manhattan, you have to
pay them more than if you are inanother city.
But because cost of living istoo expensive, so it's very
expensive.
And not every job, especially inour industry, especially the
early jobs, Allow for payingback that student debt.
(27:40):
And so when you graduate and youhave 50, 60,$120,000 in debt,
you question whether you want totake a first job at 35,000 a
year.
You, you look at it and say,Hey, And I know that's in, maybe
2, 3, 5 years down the road, Ican make 85,000.
But am I willing to carry thatstudent debt for five years
(28:04):
while I'm making 35 to 55,000?
So there's a challenge there.
And so you have really threethings.
Industry lost branding power asa as a for talent.
People who.
Questioning the valueproposition of the industry and
young graduate to carry loads ofdebt.
And so there has to, things haveto change.
(28:26):
And I think the, on the industryis working on providing better
working environments with moreflexible scheduling on property
and et cetera, et cetera, whichis a great.
A great a great way great thingsto do on higher education also
need to do something and so wetold you about a project we
have, which is a project ofbringing that Swiss
(28:48):
apprenticeship model in, in theus which would hopefully award
a, an associate degree by NYU atthe fraction of the cost of a
traditional bachelor degree.
And and we gonna focus on, A fewcareer pathways to, to begin
with.
We're gonna focus on hotelshotel operations.
We're gonna focus on sales andmarketing.
We're gonna focus on eventmanagement to start with and see
(29:11):
if it if it works.
We would focus on high schoolstudents in their junior and
senior year.
They would work part-time as anapprentice, graduate from high
school after their senior yeartransfer to the NYU Associate
Program degree and graduatewithin another year.
And they get paid.
Because they get paid as anapprentice and they get their
education at the fraction of thecost.
(29:31):
So I think that's one way Highereducation also needs, need to
change.
So the hotel industry needs tochange.
Higher education needs to changeto.
Get that matching mechanism backin place.
David Kong (29:43):
Yeah, no I wish you much success with that and I
applaud you for starting thatprogram because that's a similar
program to some countries inEurope have that, Switzerland,
Germany, and others.
And it's proven.
And if you go back to theobjective of lowering the cost
of tuition to earn a collegedegree and creating a pathway
(30:05):
and giving people.
On the job training from theget-go.
I think those are all wonderfulthings.
I wish you much success withthat.
Thank you.
We're coming to the end of ourtime, but before I let you go,
would you be kind enough toshare some advice to women and
minority groups who are tryingto get ahead but find it
(30:26):
difficult?
Nicolas Graff (30:28):
I, I would say it's, Take advantage of any kind
of networking opportunities youmay have and open up, reach out
to people are willing to helpand support.
I'll give you an example.
I we've launched at nyu, we'velaunched last year.
We've launched an incubator fornew startups and founders who
(30:51):
wants to get early stage fundingand.
So when we launched theincubator program.
It's open to NYU student, everyNYU student in alumni.
So we had some press coverageand a week later I had a woman
from Indian background.
I think she's second generationfrom India.
(31:12):
Her parents own small hotel.
And and she said to me, she saidlook, I, here, this is my
startup id, but I'm strugglingfinding people I can talk to.
And she said I graduated from acollege, a community college on
the West coast, and she said, Ijust don't know anyone in the
industry.
(31:32):
That I can talk to, to get, myproduct piloted in a hotel and
she said you at NYU have allthis network.
What can you do to help me?
And so I broke my own route andI said we are gonna, we are
gonna take that startup and weare gonna, we're gonna have her
into the incubator program sothat she can meet all of our
mentors and investors and giveher the advice.
So she's the perfect example ofwhat women and minorities have
(31:56):
to do.
They have to reach out, theyhave to say, oh, I read about
that guy who's At nyu, he talksabout all of the networking
opportunities he's giving to hisstudents.
Let me talk to him and seewhether he's willing to give
some of it to me.
And she did that.
She reached out and I broke myown rule to, to help her.
So people need to reach out.
(32:16):
I think if you if you reach outthe worst you can get is just
someone who can just won'trespond.
That's the worst is the persondoesn't respond.
It, it doesn't cost anything toreach out to people and seek
advice and guidance.
Look, we, we have as theMarriott Sorenson Center for
Hospitality Leadership at HowardUniversity.
We soon have new programs andthe new I think that they're
(32:39):
looking at the major inhospitality and tourism
management and.
We invited 20 students at theconference, both in November and
in, in, in June to volunteertogether without students.
And the feedback from theseminority, men and women was, we
didn't realize that it was soeasy to talk to senior leaders.
(33:01):
We never knew about that.
And and so I, I think just thatfeedback makes me say Reach out
to people.
They can be senior executives,presidents, whatever.
Reach out to them.
You never know.
They may respond, and if theydo, it's gonna help you a great
David Kong (33:16):
way.
Yeah, that, that's excellentadvice.
I've always believed in beingproactive, taking charge, and
your advice of reaching out.
It's actually.
Not as difficult as one.
I think that's excellent advice.
Thank you so much and Nickappreciate all the sage advice
you've dispensed today and alsoyour time.
(33:38):
I know you are extremely busy.
Thank you again.
And to the audience if you enjoytoday's interview, there are
plenty more on our website.
It's d ei advisors.
Dot org.
We hope to see you on ourwebsite, the advisor.org.
Thank you again.
Nicolas Graff (33:56):
Thank you, David.
Thank
David Kong (33:58):
you.
This is David Kong, the founder and principal of DEI
Advisors.
We are a nonprofit organizationdedicated to empowering
individuals.
Realize their careeraspirations.
We are delighted to welcomeNicholas Graff, the Associate
Dean of the Jonathan Center forHospitality at New York
(00:22):
University.
Welcome to the show,
Nicolas Graff (00:24):
Nick.
Thank you David.
Glad to be here and thanks forthe invitation.
David Kong (00:30):
It's great to have you.
I know how busy you are.
Thanks for taking that time.
A lot of people have probablyseen you at the NYU conference,
and you've been around thespeaking circuit.
Also, I think people know you,but some may not know how you
ended up being where you aretoday and doing a great
wonderful work that you do now,and perhaps you can share.
(00:53):
Your career journey startingfrom when you were, I understand
you were being trained as, youwere trained as a professional
chef.
Nicolas Graff (01:01):
Absolutely.
I, in fact, so I was born inSwitzerland, and I'm a high
school dropout.
My parents wanted me to pursue auniversity.
They themselves didn't go toyour university, so they wanted
me to be a.
To get a college degree, but Iwasn't I wasn't ready for it at,
1617.
I wasn't ready for it.
So I was able to do anapprenticeship, a chef
(01:24):
apprenticeship in Switzerland,which is a.
Regarded career pathway.
When you think about it,Switzerland and Germany, about
70% of the people never go tocollege.
They get a job and a career viathe apprenticeship model.
And Switzerland is doing justfine with that.
Now at towards the end of myapprenticeship program where
(01:44):
you, so you work for most of theweek and then you go to school
one.
About two days a week.
Towards the end of it, the theowner of the restaurant I was
working at went bankrupt.
And so gave me a shock and Ithought if I wanted to achieve
my goal, which was my dream toown a restaurant, I also needed
to learn a little more of themanagement side of things.
So it was luckily within theSwissa.
(02:07):
Educational system, I was ableto get back into higher
education and I got my bachelordegree from hotel school in
Switzerland.
And then I, I discovered newskills.
I discovered that I actuallyliked reading books and and I
was pretty good in finance.
At the end of the, at the end ofthe bachelor degree, they.
(02:27):
The school was launching a newMBA program together with H E C
Luanne.
And and they said, do you wanna,do, you wanna do an mba?
And, you can do it part-time andyou'd be teaching assistant
part-time.
And I said, is that is thatgonna be free?
And they said, yeah, free ofcharge.
You're getting paid for theteaching assistant position.
I said, why not?
So I got my mba and during theMBA time, I met with a number of
(02:50):
professors that inspired me.
Stayed with us Uhhu maker, who'sthe dean of U N L V and others.
And one of them, Mike Olson, whounfortunately passed away a
couple of years ago just reallyinspired me.
And he said, why don't you do aPhD with me?
And I said, fit with you.
Why not?
What's a PhD by the way?
And so I went to Blacksburg,Virginia.
(03:11):
And I remember we, we landed in,in Reagan airport in DC and we
were delayed by a day due to atotal blackout on the East
coast.
And so I had a car rental.
I took the cheapest one.
But when I got to the car rentalshop, they said you were
supposed to be here yesterday.
And I said, I'm sorry, We weredelayed and they say, okay, the
only car left was a yellowMustang.
And so I a bright yellowMustang.
(03:33):
And so I was upgraded and I tookthat bright yellow Mustang and
driving up to Blacksburg andsomething.
So I was there at Virginia Tech,got my PhD in finance and And
the rest is pretty much history.
Then I, I taught the Universityof Houston, went back in Europe
at Lesh, at Luanne, at at EssecBusiness School.
And and I'm now here at nyu.
So that's a little bit myjourney.
David Kong (03:56):
That's been a spectacular journey, but it's
interesting that you mentionedthe professor.
Is that help that guides you andhelp get you into the PhD
program and, No doubt that gaveyou a lot of mentoring.
It really speaks to theimportance of networking and
finding advocates and mentorsalong the way.
Well done.
(04:17):
Thank you.
Now you are West National, but Ithink you just got your green
card, right?
So you are US immigrant as well,and you lived in different
countries.
Tell us how did you Try to fitin as a foreigner in many ways.
How do you find the ability toadapt to different cultures and
different languages anddifferent ways of how things are
(04:39):
done?
Nicolas Graff (04:41):
It's it's, it hasn't been always easy, number
one, so you have to be Steadfastin your, in, in, in your
journey?
I think and resiliencesometimes, but I think it's
about curiosity.
You need to be curious aboutothers.
I've always, I.
Being a people person.
So I like being with people andso you have to be open-minded,
curious, of course, respectful.
(05:03):
And the curiosity also needs tobe curiosity about differences.
You need to be you need to beaware of the others.
And and be curious about, whythey may be different in, in, in
the way they behave or in theway they think.
And so I, I've made a, a fewmistakes along the way.
Mistakes of not understandingsome sensitivities.
(05:24):
And I remember when I got backin the US and I, I've been in
and out of the US for the past20 years.
Between my study and In the USon the west coast in Newport.
And, but when I came back aboutfive years ago the notion of
diversity, for instance andequity inclusion and all of
these subjects was reallygrowing had grown for years, but
(05:47):
was really front and center andwhich it wasn't.
15 years ago when I got my PhD.
It wasn't the same discussion.
And it's isn't the samediscussion back in Europe when
you think about Europe.
I lived in France.
It's not about equity, it'sabout equality, which is very
different.
It's the French said it'sliberty, equality, and what is
it?
(06:09):
Which is another word.
So that's the foundation of theFrench Republic.
And and so equality is verydifferent from equity.
Equality is everybody's equal.
Equity is you treat people in anequitable way which by the way
happens to be differentdepending on.
On, on, on each individual'sbackground and all of these very
subtle differences.
(06:30):
You have to be aware of them.
You have to be aware and curiousabout learning about them.
So that's, that, that's onething.
In terms of adapting to othercultures, other behaviors and.
I remember I, I took a, at nyu Itook a couple of courses we have
on, things like microaggressionsand it stuck with me really
(06:50):
because I took that course and.
A few weeks later, I met withsome new students and asked one
of the students, Hey, where areyou from?
And that student was Asian, wasan Asian student.
And and he said, I'm from LongIsland.
And I was, that's great.
And, but all of a sudden Ithought, is that could've been
perceived as an kind of anaggression.
You're asking me because I'mAsian, right?
(07:12):
You're not asking me because youreally wanna know me.
You're asking me cause I'm Asianand all of these things were
things I was not aware back inEurope.
And so you simply have to becurious.
To be able to adapt tosituations that are sometimes
very subtly different and notobviously different.
The language is an obviousthing.
I got used to have a fairlythick French accent.
(07:34):
I think I've been working on itsometimes it comes back and I, I
just.
Take it as it's a funny thing,as long as people understand me.
It just, I just take it as, witha pinch of salt and some humor.
I, I guess now in terms of beingan immigrant, it's been it's
been rough over the past aboutthe past, I would say 18 months.
I.
When the pandemic hit, I was atthe very early stage of my green
(07:56):
card application.
And and at the time when thepandemic hit, everything shut
down, the government started to,former President Trump started
to make decisions aboutimmigration and and so I was
worried.
I was probably calling my.
Immigration lawyer on a weeklybasis to know, is that affecting
me?
Is that new executive orderaffecting me?
(08:17):
And and as long as you don'thave some sense of, I had job
security, but I didn't haveimmigration security and so it
was really a hard.
Period.
With all the anxiety that camewith the pandemic, with the
black Lives Matter movementwith, all of these things, there
was a lot of emotions.
And finally when I received agreen card and September last
(08:38):
year and and that was such arelief and, you can finally make
plans and projections.
I guess it's the.
It's the outcome of beingresilient as well which I
mentioned early on.
No,
David Kong (08:50):
no doubt about that.
That's good advice.
Congratulations again on gettinga green card.
And by the way, you speak with avery distinguished French
accent.
There's absolutely nothingwrong.
A lot of people probably love itbe included.
So lemme summarize what I think,what you said about.
Fitting in, in difficult incomplex environment is that you
(09:13):
take an interest.
You Curious and you askquestions, but you're respectful
and you want to pay attention tosubtleties.
Those are just wonderful andsafe advice.
I appreciate sharing that.
Let's talk about working in theacademia world because it's
notorious for being complex andpolitical sometimes It's no
(09:36):
doubt difficult.
So share with us some lessonsthat you've learned working in
complex and politicalenvironments.
Nicolas Graff (09:44):
I think it's you have different systems in our
head.
You have the tenure tracksystem, and you have a tenure
track system.
And I've been working in both.
When I started at the Universityof Houston and Virginia Tech
Essec Business School in France,they were all tenure track types
of systems.
And in essence, what happensthere is you have series of
(10:06):
three years to prove to yourpeers that you are worthy of
getting tenured and you are onlyworthy of getting tenured if you
publish enough in academicjournals.
And and and.
So there's no, the way youevaluate it is really you're
evaluated by a committee ofpeers and you evaluate it then
(10:26):
by your dean and and so you haveto work laterally and you have
to work up, right?
So you have to make sure, youhave to make sure your boss
respects you, the dean.
So you have to manage up and youhave to manage laterally your
colleagues, because you are,some of them may end up in your.
Evaluation committee.
So you have to be also respectedby your peers which is a
(10:49):
challenge in in, in educationbecause you're not really
evaluated by students in thatcontext.
And which, has a lot of you canbe very critical about that
system that, put students awayfrom making the tenure decision.
So you have to be aware of that.
You have to be aware of thetensions.
Some faculty, they need torespect you, but not too much.
(11:09):
You don't wanna, you don't wannabe too smart to, create shadows
on them.
So you have to be just aware ofup and, the management up and
the colleagues just to make surethat you navigate through that
system.
Enough.
And I've always.
Done that by being, true tomyself.
So I've never lied because Ithink if you're not true to
yourself, it's gonna, it'sgonna, get you at some point
(11:32):
you're gonna make a mistake.
And and people will just realizethat you are not true to
yourself.
And so they will.
Keep that against you.
So you have to be true toyourself.
You have to be honest.
You have to be direct, butstill, while being aware of the
environment and thesensitivities of your peers and
bosses.
But you have to be, I think youhave to be honest.
(11:52):
And again, I think the, I alwaysconsider myself as a, a.
Continuous students because Ilearn every day.
And so the, I go back to thatnotion of curiosity.
You need to be also constantlylearning from, your peers from
others.
It's always been helpful to me.
Now, in, in the otherenvironment, which is the one
I'm currently in, which is anon-tenure track environment,
(12:14):
faculty are contract faculty.
We renew their contract everytwo, three or five years.
And the evaluation isessentially based on student
success which is something Ipersonally value greatly.
And I think it's it's a verygood system compared to the
other one.
And then myself, I'm evaluatedby my boss the dean of the
school who my contract everythree years.
(12:36):
So the political environment,I've had a hard, I'd say I had a
hard of time.
Adjusting to it at nyu.
I thought NYU is a giganticuniversity 65,000 students.
It's a 13 or 14 billion yearlybudget.
It has, includes a hospital,Langone hospital system.
(12:57):
We have all of these differentschools and colleges.
So it's a big, it's a big, it'sa big, it's a big corporation.
In many ways we not for profitbut, it's run like a
corporation.
We have a lot of real estate inManhattan as you can imagine.
And, that's complicated tomanage.
And so you.
Things, were going slower than Iexpected at nyu.
(13:19):
So I became a little bitimpatient early on in my tenure
here.
So I just had to learn that, I'mon different timeframe now.
I'm in my position.
I'm thinking about the next fiveto 10 years as opposed to the
next two.
And so I had to learn that andmake the adjustment and became
increasingly patient, whichdoesn't mean I'm not, I don't
want things to, to be, things tobe done.
(13:40):
But I'm, I've learned to bepatient in complex environment
and bureaucratic and politicalenvironment, you have to be
patient.
Yeah, no, I agree with you.
David Kong (13:50):
Yeah in complex and political environments.
But I also heard you say andvery wisely, a few things that
you do very well, which is yoube true to yourself.
You do a good job, you earn therespect of others around you,
and you are respectful to them.
They're respectful to you.
And by the way, don't outshinethem too much.
(14:10):
Don't be a threat to otherpeople that, that's really good
advice.
Let's talk about the spectacularjourney that you've been on and
the achievements you've beenable to accomplish.
What are some of thecontributing factors to your
success?
Nicolas Graff (14:30):
I, I think I've said I think I've said yes in my
life much more often than Isaid.
No.
Even when someone, like what Isaid when Luanne said, do you
want to do an mba?
That wasn't part of my careerplan.
I, my career plan was, do thechef apprenticeship, learn the
(14:51):
cooking skills.
Then go to Luanne, get yourbachelor in hotel management to
get the management skills andthen open your restaurants.
That was my plan, that was mydream.
But then they came up withsomething I had never thought of
and I said, it's free.
I can learn.
I can continue to learn.
I can earn another credential, Ican meet other people.
(15:12):
Yes, I'll do it.
And so I did it, and then whenMike Olson said, do you want to
do a PhD?
I honestly, I didn't know whatPhD meant.
Not at all.
And he, the guy who was smart,the smartest guy I've ever met,
his knowledge base was gigantic.
He knew everything.
I've always tried to findsomething he didn't know that I
(15:33):
knew and I failed to that.
So he was such a a wonderful.
Human being number one, but alsosuch a clever man.
And so when he said, do youwanna do your PhD?
I just said, yes.
I took the chance.
I said, I can always own myrestaurants because these skills
I carry them with me.
But if I do that a PhD and I'mgonna learn new skills.
I'm gonna learn, new knowledgeit's gonna expand my frontiers.
(15:57):
I remember taking courses.
I took so many courses instatistics.
Or in econometrics these kindsof things.
I, do I ever use them?
Yes.
Sometimes in my research, but Imostly use them intellectually
to frame problems conceptually.
And so it's been incrediblyuseful.
So first advice is to,successful careers say yes more
(16:20):
often than no.
And I remember when Luanne cameand said, Do you wanna be a
teaching assistant?
I said, yes.
And they said, okay, you can,you teach finance.
But in, in the English program.
So I took when I was at theschool there, I took the program
in French.
And my English wasn't reallygood.
And they said can you teach thatin English?
And I said, yes.
(16:40):
And I really didn't know if Icould.
But, I took all of my courage.
I took some English, additionalEnglish lessons, and I started
to teach in English.
And that contributed to mysuccess in in, in the program,
in the MBA program, andcontributed to my success then
in my PhD program.
And then, hopefully contributedto my success here at nyu.
(17:01):
So saying yes, even if it's,even if the steps seems a little
high.
A lot of people can figure itout.
So that's one two, I come backto that notion of curiosity and
always being curious about newthings.
That's probably the, with theSay Yes, be curious, stick to
(17:22):
your, to, to your truth, trueself.
And I did that in one of my lastjob when I.
I took a job in Switzerland andwith the hotel schools that had
been acquired by a Frenchprivate equity firm.
And there's nothing wrong withprivate equity firm but I think
they, their profit obsessionclashes too much with the
(17:43):
educational.
Goal of higher education.
So I took the job well, paidnear close to my family in a
beautiful setting, the ALPMountains.
And I, at some point I said, no,be true to yourself.
And I quit.
I quit the job and and I took astep back in a way I was, chief
Academic Officer.
I'm associate dean.
(18:03):
It's different environment.
NYU is much bigger, but.
I took a step down in a way butI think it, it's on paper
because the reality is I took astep up.
I joined the US in New York, nyuI've never met so many leaders
like yourself of the industry,thanks to the NYU conference.
So I think, by being true toyourself, you're gonna, you're
(18:26):
gonna find a way where youreally fit.
And I think right now I foundthat I'm probably here to stay
for a while, as long as NYUwants me.
Because I think it's a greatfit.
So I said a lot of time, yes, I,I remain curious.
And stay true to myself.
Even if it meant sometimestaking a step perceptually step
(18:46):
down, something you would thinkit's a step down, but it, but
actually isn't.
David Kong (18:51):
Yeah.
I, that's a wonderful story.
I, I appreciate you sharingthat.
And you talk about curiosity,continuous learning, not being
afraid to take a risk and alsosometimes recognizing that it's
not the right job and not beingafraid.
To make a change because youultimately want to be true to
(19:14):
yourself.
Those are just wonderful lessonsand advice that you're sharing.
I appreciate that.
Now I have no doubt many of us,we've all faced challenges and
difficulties and sometimesdisappointments.
And you alluded to the stressthat you were under during the
pandemic because you're waitingfor the green card and there's
(19:34):
some factors working againstyou.
And no doubt, that's atremendous challenge.
Can you share with us yourapproach to challenges?
Nicolas Graff (19:45):
First I think it's always better to face
challenges when you're withsomeone together, with other
people.
That's the strength of we,right?
Whether it's, it might.
In a personal life.
I, I sh I have a wonderful wife,Stephanie, and and we were in it
together.
And and like any lastingmarriage, I guess e everyone
(20:06):
who's gone has lasting marriage,that you're gonna go through
some challenging times what,whatever they are.
But luckily I was with Stephanieand so the morning I, I woke up
and, Totally panicking aboutthat immigration status.
She was calm and quiet and shewas able to take me out of that
panic mode.
And the next day it was her whowas having some anxiety issues.
(20:29):
And then, and I was the one whowas able to, help her get past
that.
So I think it's always easier toface challenges when you're not
alone.
I think that's number one.
And that's true in business too.
That's true at work.
That's true in your career.
When you have colleagues ofmentors and advocates who can
help you cope with some of your,career related challenges.
(20:51):
It's always better.
And I'm looking, everyinstitution I've worked, I can
have, I can say I have at leastone or two.
People that I consider as closefriends, that I've made close
friends with, and that Iconsider as mentors.
And so I can pick up my phoneand I can say, Hey, this is what
I'm facing right now.
(21:11):
What do you think?
And and so again, the power ofhaving friends and mentors and
partners that's probably one ofthe best way to to cope with.
With challenges.
The other one is resilience.
I think how our industry haslearned that from the pandemic,
we are gonna get through thisand I remember, when.
You were on the webinar with theother with that group CEOs and
(21:34):
Chris and we still had ArneSorensen in 2020.
Everybody was saying, we gonnaget through it.
It's hard.
It's probably the hardest thingwe've ever faced as industry,
but we gonna get through it.
And indeed industry got throughit.
And and that's a matter ofresilience and, Deep belief
that, there's another meaning tolife or to business or to things
(21:56):
that it's not captured in amoment that may be very
challenging.
And so you're gonna get past it.
There a trajectory to life or tobusiness that's the trajectory
is not gonna change.
There may be a bump in the road,but the tr trajectory is not
gonna change.
And you have to keep that inmind.
You have to keep the faith init.
I tell my students that,constantly because so many of my
(22:17):
students when the hotelindustry, overnight shut, shut
down and they were about tograduate you had to tell them
something, right?
You had to to tell them, there'sit's.
It's will be tough for the next,and we didn't really know back
then.
We thought it was like couple ofmonths maybe, hopefully by, and
it took longer.
But once it rebounds, then therewill be plenty opportunities.
(22:40):
People will be dying to hireyou.
And this is exactly what'shappening today.
People are dying to hire ourstudents and so you just have to
have to take the long viewsometimes and not get dragged
down by.
By the short term challengeyou're facing.
So I think deans would be my myapproach my, my different
approaches to coping withchallenges.
David Kong (23:01):
Yeah.
No, that's a, again very goodadvice.
You talked earlier about havinga network that you can lean on
and building a team that you cantrust and can get you through
challenges.
I think those things are soimportant and then having a
belief and a faith in order tofind the resilience, that's also
(23:21):
really important because whenyou're going through a really
difficult situation, you do needto find hope and that hope comes
from yourself.
You've gotta be able to must upthe courage to believe in
yourself and believe in a team,and that's how we can get
through it.
That's great advice.
Thank you.
Now switching gears, you'vetalked about, this industry's
(23:44):
labor situation.
Before the pandemic, the laborsituation, I would call it a
pretty severe challenge, butafter the pandemic, it's an
outright crisis.
But you've made a comment thatthe industry's labor crisis is
not due to a lack of talent.
Can you elaborate on that?
Nicolas Graff (24:04):
It's I think there's talent out there.
I think the challenge theindustry, we.
Now is there is talent and thereis, they are good jobs and it's,
there's no, there's a missingmatching mechanism.
And the matching mechanismhistorically was people really
wanted to join the industry.
The industry had a goodreputation and.
(24:27):
And a lot of people wanted toget jobs in, in an industry
that's, that makes people dream,right?
Travel is about, dreaming aboutplaces, going somewhere and
enjoying, new experiences.
But I think for a couple ofyears, and that predates a
little bit the pandemic, I thinkthe industry took it for granted
a few years prior to thepandemic and I'd say hotel
(24:48):
school and hospitality programstoo.
We took it for granted.
People want to do a career inhospitality management.
And the reality is not so muchanymore because the perception
that people have.
Developed, and that's beenaccelerated by the pandemic.
The perception is that the jobsare, frontline jobs only.
(25:10):
They're housekeeping jobs,they're front of the house jobs
and that there's nothing beyondthat and that there's nothing
around it.
So people are not aware of theentirety of the hotel industry
when it comes to jobs.
They don't know.
Jobs at the headquarter.
They certainly don't know jobsin the back of the house as much
(25:30):
as they know the front of thehouse.
They don't know that there's agood career in hotel finance.
You can be, director of financeis a great job.
They don't necessarily know the,revenue management.
They don't know that we haveengineers they don't know we
have all of that technologycomponent.
Now, nowadays in in, in theindustry, they still focus on
the central of their jobs thatwere very visibly affected by
(25:54):
the pandemic because they werethe first one that we had to, as
an industry, we had to furloughor let go.
And they were the most visibleones.
And so I think the industry, andI know that, eh, n l a and
others are working on it to chto change the perception, to
change the branding of theindustry when it comes to a
career.
(26:14):
Offering good career choices andgood career pathways.
It's gonna take a while.
It's gonna take a while.
I also think that we all knowthat in this country we have an
education, a higher educationcrisis.
So it's not, you have a hotelindustry labor crisis.
You have talent pool that's nolonger able to match with the
(26:35):
jobs that are available.
And on top of it, you have ahigher education crisis, which
is, it's in the news every day.
We're talking about student debtand issues about funding for
college degrees and.
I don't think everyone needs acollege degree.
Look at me.
I have one ultimately, but Ididn't necessarily have to have
one.
I could have had a great careerwithout one.
(26:56):
Because there is a system inSwitzerland that allow for
people to go through a careerpathway without necessarily
having to pay for college.
And paying for college isexpensive.
It's an expensive proposition.
If I look at nyu, NYU'sexpensive.
No question about it.
It's one of the best.
University in the country butalso it's very expensive to
operate.
(27:17):
When you think about the cost ofoperating in Manhattan it's
extremely expensive.
You when you have faculty andstaff in Manhattan, you have to
pay them more than if you are inanother city.
But because cost of living istoo expensive, so it's very
expensive.
And not every job, especially inour industry, especially the
early jobs, Allow for payingback that student debt.
(27:40):
And so when you graduate and youhave 50, 60,$120,000 in debt,
you question whether you want totake a first job at 35,000 a
year.
You, you look at it and say,Hey, And I know that's in, maybe
2, 3, 5 years down the road, Ican make 85,000.
But am I willing to carry thatstudent debt for five years
(28:04):
while I'm making 35 to 55,000?
So there's a challenge there.
And so you have really threethings.
Industry lost branding power asa as a for talent.
People who.
Questioning the valueproposition of the industry and
young graduate to carry loads ofdebt.
And so there has to, things haveto change.
(28:26):
And I think the, on the industryis working on providing better
working environments with moreflexible scheduling on property
and et cetera, et cetera, whichis a great.
A great a great way great thingsto do on higher education also
need to do something and so wetold you about a project we
have, which is a project ofbringing that Swiss
(28:48):
apprenticeship model in, in theus which would hopefully award
a, an associate degree by NYU atthe fraction of the cost of a
traditional bachelor degree.
And and we gonna focus on, A fewcareer pathways to, to begin
with.
We're gonna focus on hotelshotel operations.
We're gonna focus on sales andmarketing.
We're gonna focus on eventmanagement to start with and see
(29:11):
if it if it works.
We would focus on high schoolstudents in their junior and
senior year.
They would work part-time as anapprentice, graduate from high
school after their senior yeartransfer to the NYU Associate
Program degree and graduatewithin another year.
And they get paid.
Because they get paid as anapprentice and they get their
education at the fraction of thecost.
(29:31):
So I think that's one way Highereducation also needs, need to
change.
So the hotel industry needs tochange.
Higher education needs to changeto.
Get that matching mechanism backin place.
David Kong (29:43):
Yeah, no I wish you much success with that and I
applaud you for starting thatprogram because that's a similar
program to some countries inEurope have that, Switzerland,
Germany, and others.
And it's proven.
And if you go back to theobjective of lowering the cost
of tuition to earn a collegedegree and creating a pathway
(30:05):
and giving people.
On the job training from theget-go.
I think those are all wonderfulthings.
I wish you much success withthat.
Thank you.
We're coming to the end of ourtime, but before I let you go,
would you be kind enough toshare some advice to women and
minority groups who are tryingto get ahead but find it
(30:26):
difficult?
Nicolas Graff (30:28):
I, I would say it's, Take advantage of any kind
of networking opportunities youmay have and open up, reach out
to people are willing to helpand support.
I'll give you an example.
I we've launched at nyu, we'velaunched last year.
We've launched an incubator fornew startups and founders who
(30:51):
wants to get early stage fundingand.
So when we launched theincubator program.
It's open to NYU student, everyNYU student in alumni.
So we had some press coverageand a week later I had a woman
from Indian background.
I think she's second generationfrom India.
(31:12):
Her parents own small hotel.
And and she said to me, she saidlook, I, here, this is my
startup id, but I'm strugglingfinding people I can talk to.
And she said I graduated from acollege, a community college on
the West coast, and she said, Ijust don't know anyone in the
industry.
(31:32):
That I can talk to, to get, myproduct piloted in a hotel and
she said you at NYU have allthis network.
What can you do to help me?
And so I broke my own route andI said we are gonna, we are
gonna take that startup and weare gonna, we're gonna have her
into the incubator program sothat she can meet all of our
mentors and investors and giveher the advice.
So she's the perfect example ofwhat women and minorities have
(31:56):
to do.
They have to reach out, theyhave to say, oh, I read about
that guy who's At nyu, he talksabout all of the networking
opportunities he's giving to hisstudents.
Let me talk to him and seewhether he's willing to give
some of it to me.
And she did that.
She reached out and I broke myown rule to, to help her.
So people need to reach out.
(32:16):
I think if you if you reach outthe worst you can get is just
someone who can just won'trespond.
That's the worst is the persondoesn't respond.
It, it doesn't cost anything toreach out to people and seek
advice and guidance.
Look, we, we have as theMarriott Sorenson Center for
Hospitality Leadership at HowardUniversity.
We soon have new programs andthe new I think that they're
(32:39):
looking at the major inhospitality and tourism
management and.
We invited 20 students at theconference, both in November and
in, in, in June to volunteertogether without students.
And the feedback from theseminority, men and women was, we
didn't realize that it was soeasy to talk to senior leaders.
(33:01):
We never knew about that.
And and so I, I think just thatfeedback makes me say Reach out
to people.
They can be senior executives,presidents, whatever.
Reach out to them.
You never know.
They may respond, and if theydo, it's gonna help you a great
David Kong (33:16):
way.
Yeah, that, that's excellentadvice.
I've always believed in beingproactive, taking charge, and
your advice of reaching out.
It's actually.
Not as difficult as one.
I think that's excellent advice.
Thank you so much and Nickappreciate all the sage advice
you've dispensed today and alsoyour time.
(33:38):
I know you are extremely busy.
Thank you again.
And to the audience if you enjoytoday's interview, there are
plenty more on our website.
It's d ei advisors.
Dot org.
We hope to see you on ourwebsite, the advisor.org.
Thank you again.
Nicolas Graff (33:56):
Thank you, David.
Thank
David Kong (33:58):
you.
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