I Don’t Even Like Women? Breaking Lies, Building Sisterhood in Church with Natalie Runion

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hey.
Hey friends.
And welcome back to Faithfield Woman.
Today we are gonna dig intowhy it is so important that we show
up and that we build communityin our our churches, in our neighborhoods,
why we become friends andcollaborators in our communities
with other women and what theimpact of that truly is.

(00:21):
Today I have a great guestinterview with the author of her
most recent book, I Don't EvenLike Women and Other Lies We Tell
Ourselves.
It's a great interview.
I think you're going to relateto so many things she shares and
how you might have felt in thepast as well and how we can change
the environment, in theatmosphere in our churches and our

(00:42):
communities so that we cancome together and just do what God
has intended for us to do whenwe work together as women in community.
Hey friend, are you cravingdeeper faith, renewed purpose and
more joy in your everyday life?
Welcome to Faith Heeled Womanthat helps Christian women grow spiritually
pursue God's calling andembrace the abundant life he has

(01:03):
for you.
I'm Kristen, an encourager,mentor, entrepreneur, wife and mom
here to uplift, equip andinspire you with faith filled conversations
and biblical wisdom.
Subscribe now so you nevermiss an episode and join our faith
fueled community for more encouragement.
Hi.
Today on the podcast I wouldlike to welcome our guest, Natalie

(01:23):
Runyon.
She is an author and she's thecreator of the community Raised to
Stay.
She has written three books.
Her newest one is called IDon't Even Like Women.
Her past books are Raised toStay in the house that Jesus Built.
She also works alongside herhusband to help churches improve
their cultures so that they'rehealthier cultures for all of us

(01:44):
to show up, come together andjust be the hands and feet of Christ.
So I'm excited for thisconversation because we're going
to talk about just the powerand the impact that we have in our
communities and in our churches.
We're going to talk about theimportance of of women in these communities
and how coming together, howworking together, how being open
hearted and just developingfriendships and community is so important

(02:07):
not just for us and ourhearts, but for our communities.
And I just hope that thisepisode will just inspire you and
encourage you to be morewelcoming and inviting in your own
homes and your communities andyour churches.
So I want to welcome Natalie.
Natalie, welcome to the show.
Oh thanks for having me Kristen.
Good to be here.
Oh, thanks.
So Natalie, I would love it ifyou could tell us a little bit about

(02:28):
life or what life's look like.
The other thing I forgot tomention is Natalie's also held many
other positions like a worshippastor and a women's pastor.
I know you've done lots ofmusic ministry as well, so I'd love
if you just shared a littlebit about your background and what
you're up to now.
Yeah, well, I'm a pastor'skid, grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio.
We currently live in Kentucky.

(02:48):
I've been married to myhusband for 19 years, and we have
two daughters who are 13 and 16.
One just started driving last week.
So we're in the throes ofteenage parenting right now, but
grew up in the pastor's home.
Incredible childhood and ministry.
We were deeply wounded at apretty pivotal point in my life where
it changed my trajectory fromwanting to go to a Christian college

(03:11):
to going to a very publicuniversity where I had to wrestle
with my faith a ton.
I had atheist professors.
I ended up being a science major.
So I was really kind oftelling the Lord, hey, if this is
your church, if these are yourpeople, no, thank you.
I'm going to go do ministry elsewhere.
And I believed that I could,and I still do believe that ministry
is everywhere we go as peopleof God.

(03:33):
And it was in that that I gotinvolved with a ministry called Campus
Crusade for Christ at mycollege campus and started leading
worship.
And the Lord really broke myheart for his people through worship.
And I graduated.
I was a gym teacher by day andI was a worship leader by weekend.
And around 33 was able to gofull time into chur staff leadership

(03:54):
and did that up until the Lordbirthed raised this day back in 2022,
where I started an onlinecommunity and started really talking
through.
Look, a lot of us have beenwounded by God's people, but God
is still good.
How can we wrestle with thatrelationship with the church but
also still stay connected to Jesus?
And so the last five yearshave been me producing content for

(04:16):
the church through socialmedia, through books, through traveling
and doing conferences andchurch services and consultation
where I basically am able to share.
God has used the church tobreak me and heal me.
And it's now where I'm in thisposition of even raising my own kids
and teaching them as best Ican with my husband and I to trust

(04:36):
God before we trust in people,that we're going to be disappointed
in people.
But God is still good and faithful.
And I think this is a commonconversation that a lot of us were
afraid to have until now.
And so that's really my hope,is that this platform opens up hard
and holy conversations in away that points us to Jesus.
So good.
And yeah, you're so right.
I mean, how many.

(04:57):
If you talk to five women, 100women, or, you know, men too.
I'm not excluding them fromthat, what you just talked about.
But will they say to you,like, ah, yes, like, I went to a
church or this person at thechurch or this path, like, something's
happened to them, whether itwas in childhood, you know, with
their church experience, or asa grown, you know, person.
But it's so true.

(05:18):
And a lot of times we justwant to kind of run away from it
or from that church.
And it's not that we don'twant to be there, but like you said,
people just.
They don't know what to dowith it.
Right.
Like, they don't know how tograpple with it and then move forward
in a healthy way or feelhealthy about the church.
And so it is something.
It is really important howyou're opening up those conversations
and you're helping people opentheir hearts and reframe.

(05:42):
I think, you know, like, okay,maybe this happened to you, but it's
just like any other part ofour lives.
Things can happen and we haveto process it and work through it
and then decide how to move forward.
Right.
In the healthiest way thatwe're able to.
So I think that's so great.
Yeah.
And, you know, thedeconstruction movement really picked
up in 2019, prior to Covid.

(06:02):
Then Covid happened, and allof us had reasons to leave church
and watch online.
And I think a lot of peoplewere in some ways looking for an
excuse to not have to get upevery Sunday and do the religious
toil of getting their familiesready for church.
And, you know, couple thatwith the deconstruction movement,
the Me Too Church Toomovement, where people started coming
forward with sexual abuseallegations, many of them legit,

(06:26):
others of them not.
We kind of had a perfect stormfor, you know, kind of a church bashing
season where everybody onlinewas now kind of coming at the church.
And I realized in that momentthat it's okay to detangle from some
things that were placed on usas women, as children in the church
without completely burning itall down.

(06:47):
And I think that that was kindof like a lot of us had matches in
our hands.
Like, I want to see the wholething go down, but the church is
God's idea, and anything thatGod's idea is a good idea.
And if the gates of hell can'tprevail against the church, then
sexual abuse and things likedeconstruction for the purposes of
destruction aren't going toburn down the house.
God is going to continue toelevate his church and his bride

(07:10):
until he comes back.
Yeah, yeah.
What would you say as youstepped more into this work than
just then being in full timeministry inside of the church, what
would you say has been thebiggest shift you're seeing happen
Right.
Over those last five years?
Goodness.
I am seeing revival breakingout in churches and Gen Z is, is

(07:33):
really kind of leading thatcharge, primarily because Gen Z is
a generation that values transparency.
So when pastors are honest,when churches are transparent, when
leadership is, is offeringclarity, there is something so kind
about pastors not trying todefend the church leaders, not trying
to God's house, but saying,oh, you've been hurt, tell me about

(07:55):
that.
Or oh, you grew up in thisenvironment and now you're questioning
things.
Let's wrestle with thosequestions together.
And so I am seeing a churchthat is slowly starting to welcome
criticism, welcometransparency, welcome third parties
coming in and saying, let'sreally look at the financial framework
of this house.
Let's look at your schedulingand your staffing.

(08:17):
And really what's happening isthat transparency is proving to people
that the church can be thesafest place on the planet when we're
willing to submit to theauthority of Jesus Christ and work
together in unity to bringthat peace and to bring that community
that we're meant to be for our neighborhoods.
Yeah, I love that.
Okay, so let's dig in a littlebit to your most recent book.

(08:39):
You know, I know obviously inthe book you talk about the title,
right?
Which is I Don't even Like Women.
But would you just share withus about why you wrote the book and
what you've heard from women?
Right.
About.
About the book and about the concept.
In 2020ish, I had been aworship leader for 20 years and I

(08:59):
got moved into full timewomen's ministry.
And I didn't want it, I didn'task for it.
It was kind of like, do it ordon't have a job.
And I remember getting calledinto my boss's office and he's like,
look, you're a great worshipleader, but we need you to take women's
ministry.
And I literally looked at theman and said, why would.
Why?
I don't even like women.
Like, I've never once said Iwant to be a women's pastor.

(09:20):
I've never even been to awomen's ministry thing.
And I think growing up I hadseen women's ministry done so poorly
you know, it was like teaparties and country club kind of
activity.
And I just didn't want to bepart of something that wasn't inclusive
and wasn't invitational.
And it was in that five yearsof being their women's pastor that
I really had my heart brokenfor the women of the house.

(09:42):
And I realized that it wasn'tthat I didn't like women.
It was that I didn't likemyself in some areas.
And so being around otherwomen highlighted my own insecurities
of not feeling wanted, notfeeling validated.
Like you said, these arethings from our past that started
on the playground when we werein elementary school that have followed
us through high school and college.
And in that starting, raisedto stay, traveling, resigning from

(10:07):
that position, hearing otherwomen tell me their stories.
Every time I got into a carfrom an airport and I met the pastor's
wife, I met the woman leadingthe conference, I would say, how
did you get into this?
And they would say, you know,I don't know.
I don't even like women.
And it was nine times out often that a woman would tell me that.
And I thought, we need to talkabout this.
Like, why is it that we say,not just that, but we just spew these

(10:30):
lies about each other?
Women are so mean.
Women are so catty.
Women are so emotional.
Women are such drama queen.
And what does scripture saythat actually debunks those lies
or rewrites the scripts for usthat tells us who we are as daughters,
not who we are according topop culture?
Absolutely.
I mean, I think you're so right.
And it.
I mean, first of all, it'sthroughout all of culture that we

(10:54):
hear these things, right?
These messages about women.
If you're a leader and you'retoo strong of a leader, or if you're
outspoken, then we're the Bword, like some bad word, Right?
Or not.
Not a nice construed word.
But if it's a man, it's like,oh, he's assertive and he's powerful.
But for whatever reason, it'slike, we can never win with culture,
right?
We can never win, whether it'swithin a church or outside of a church.

(11:15):
Like you said, there's allthese messages that women are told
about themselves and aboutother women.
And what would you say aboutthat, though?
Would you say that part ofthat is to just keep us dimmed and
keep us so that we aren'tstepping into all the purpose God
has for us, both individuallyand as a community of women?
I think it's both And I thinkthat the enemy has been lying to

(11:36):
women since the garden when hemade Eve question if God actually
said, don't eat the fruit fromthe tree.
I mean, Satan is constantlytrying to rewrite the scripts in
our brain, from what the wordsays about us to what he wants us
to believe about ourselves,that we're powerless, that we're
second place, that we don'thave a position, that we don't have
any influence or authority tobring the Great Commission and the

(11:57):
Great Command into this world.
And so it starts in the garden.
And then with that fall, eventhough there's a redemptive arc to
our story, there is still afallen world that we live in.
Then you start adding theHollywood narrative into this.
And if you think about themovies we grew up on in the 90s,
it was mean Girls, Gossip Girl.
I mean, we were being told, ifyou want to survive, then you have

(12:19):
to be at the top.
You have to be the queen bee.
You have to be the mostbeautiful, the skinniest, the most
popular.
And then those narrativesstart being written over us by other
women, not only our friends,but our moms and our friends, moms
and our bosses.
And now all of thosenarratives are getting piled up on
to silence us and to feelinglike we're never going to be good

(12:39):
enough and that we don'tactually have anything of value to
bring.
And in that, we then lessenour power when we're united, because
now we're in competition.
We see each other as thecompetition rather than a collaborator.
And when we look in Scripture,we see a constant arc of women really
rallying together to do thingsthat change the trajectory of peace,

(13:04):
of the gospel story.
Even in that story of Mary and Elizabeth.
Like, we see so many examplesof what happens when women actually
work together and work towardskingdom goals.
Absolutely.
It's so true.
Yeah.
I mean, I don't know there's asingle woman that could say, you
know, if we were talking tothem, that, like, they didn't experience
some of that.
Right.
Or.
Or those words used about themor that they've heard those.

(13:25):
So it is true.
So what would you say?
I guess the first question Ihave is, why is it.
Well, let's talk about friendships.
Right.
This is obviously somethingyou talk about in the book is like,
why is it so competitive?
Instead of, like you said,collaborative as women, both community,
but also in friendships.
Like, why is it hard as a girland a woman to make friendships,

(13:45):
even in the church?
So what can you share with usabout that?
I was thinking about this alot because I started going back
to my journals from high school.
And it starts with like, dating.
It's like there's a small poolof men, there's a bigger pool of
women.
And.
And you know, you see peoplestart pairing off in college.
People start getting married sooner.
Some start having babiessooner, others get jobs first.
And it feels like for women,there are fewer seats at the dating

(14:09):
table, at the marriage table,at the baby table, at the job promotion
table in the church.
And because there feels to belike fewer seats or fewer opportunities,
it's like this game of musicalchairs where women are kind of circling
each other like, that's myseat, like, I'm not going to share
the seat with you.
And when the music stops, whenour biological clocks hit, when we

(14:31):
start to feel panic, thenrather than be generous and say,
oh no, you can have my seatbecause I believe there are other
seats for me, we startknocking chairs out from each other.
Because we've been taught thatthere's only one or two seats at
a table for us.
And when we get into thatspace, we become really insecure.
We don't operate in our authority.

(14:52):
We also compromise ourintegrity and our values.
And in the church, when thatstarts to happen, then women's ministry
kind of becomes like thisshark infested waters of like, that's
my microphone or that's myministry or that's my friend.
And we forget that we'recalled to pull up chairs, not to
create these silos of who wentto college together and who's grown

(15:15):
up in ministry and who's beenhere the longest.
So we can see how thoseearthly scripts and narratives get
transferred to the church.
Because we are human people,imperfect people carrying a perfect
gospel that we have to know weare going to have to subject ourselves
under the authority of Christto operate in that pureness as daughters.

(15:37):
Yeah, so.
Yeah, so, but I guess thequestion is, you explain that really
well.
But, like, why do you thinkit's so difficult for women other
than, like you said, like,it's, it's because we feel like there's
not enough, you know, sothere's this whole, like, what do
you call that?
Scarcity mindset.
There's, you know, all theseother kind of things going on, maybe
swirling around our head and,you know, not really getting caught

(16:00):
up in that.
Instead of what, like yousaid, what God says about women,
about each of us.
So why is it still sodifficult for us, even women that
say, you know, you know, we'vewalked, you know, in our faith you
know, like you said, we'retrying to participate and yet we
still struggle with this.
I think we walk into churchsettings and we expect it to be different
from the world.
And then when it's not, it'slike we have no tolerance for it.

(16:23):
We expect our jobs in secularmarkets, we expect a little bit of
that there.
We expect it in playgroupswith moms who don't know Jesus in
our whatever.
But when we walk into achurch, we have a hope that it's
going to be different.
And then when it's not, whenwe go into women's ministry or we
go into the church sanctuaryand it's still siloed by different

(16:45):
cast of people or by differentsituations or who's a parent who's
not, who's married, who's not,we become, I think, like double disappointed.
And then coming in with ourown fears of rejection, our own fears
of not being wanted, our pastexperiences of other churches where
things have happened and we'recarrying that trauma with us.
And so it's really hard for usto be welcoming and inclusive of

(17:08):
other women when we ourselvesdon't feel welcomed or included.
So I think that's reallywhat's stopping a lot of women from
going to conferences, going tothe women's Bible study, because
they don't want to bedisappointed by the ones who should
know better.
Absolutely.
So, I mean, yeah, I mean, sowhat do we, what do we do about that?
Right?
Like how do we one become theperson that's welcoming other women

(17:30):
in?
Right.
How do we heal our hearts sothat we are open hearted towards
other women?
And then also how do we just,how do we say yes to ourselves, like
to go and trust that likewe're going to step through something
and then find, you know, thatwe will find women that are.
Well, for me personally, I'vehad to acknowledge the fact that

(17:51):
I am, I am broken as a human woman.
I am not fully hold or heal.
We won't be that until we getto heaven.
And so I've had to really beintentional myself about not isolating.
And it's really easy for us tobe like, I'm just so busy.
I have a business, I havechildren, I have a full time job,

(18:11):
I'll get to community in my50s when everybody's retired or kids
are out of the house, we thinkI'll do it then.
Yeah, but we forget that, likewe need each other right now.
And not just each other.
I need women who have alreadybeen where I am and have already
raised Their kids have alreadyretired from their jobs, who have
successfully launched theirchildren into the world and are modeling

(18:36):
for me where I want to be in20 years.
And then I need women in their20s who I can invest in, who I can
also do the same thing for.
And if I just sit in my houseand I wait for people to come to
me or I wait for the phone toring, with every passing day that
it doesn't, I become moreremoved and more fearful of putting
myself out there.

(18:56):
And so I, me personally, I'mthe one who's sending texts like,
let's grab coffee today.
I'm in town for five days.
Do you have time to go getdinner, come over with your spouse
and have dinner with my family?
Like, I'm having to be so intentional.
And then when I go intochurch, I actually know people because
I've done the most horriblething in my mind that could possibly

(19:18):
do, I could do.
And that's put myself outthere and risk being denied or risk
being rejected.
But I've been so pleasantlysurprised at 45 years old, how many
other women in their 30s andin their 50s are so wanting to be
with me not because of who Iam or what I do, but because they
too are looking for sisterhoodin some way, shape or form.

(19:41):
Yeah, to me it's shocking.
So I have a lot of close girlfriends.
I didn't meet most of themthrough my church or, you know, or
that sort of thing.
Although, I mean, a lot ofthem are obviously Christian and
faith based people, whether I,they're my, my closest best friends
in person.
And then of course, I've metpeople online through small groups
I'm in and things like that.
But I talked to so many women,both locally and, you know, across

(20:04):
the country, and a lot of themstruggle with having friendships,
like real, true, deep, deepfriendships within the, inside the
church or outside the churchor both.
And so I, and to me it's, Idon't say it's shocking because I
see it all over the place.
But for me, like, my brotheris saying that, he's like, you're
so intentional, right, with myfriendships, I'm so intentional with

(20:25):
investing in my friendshipsand putting the time right.
Like, I put a lot of time into that.
But you're right, so manypeople I think, think, oh, one day,
one day I will win.
Or we're afraid, like you just said.
Like, it's scary to putourselves out there and to meet a
new friend or to extend theinvitation because what if they say
no?
What if we're rejected.

(20:46):
What if it's not?
They're not who we thoughtthey were.
But I love in Jenny Allen'sbook Find you'd People, she talks
about what Professor Jeffreyhall says, which is it takes that
investment of time.
Right.
And you talk about that too.
Time and commitment.
But it takes, they say, thedata says 50 hours to make a casual
friend, 90 hours to become afriend, and over 200 hours to become

(21:09):
a best friend.
And I think most of us aren'twilling to put in the time.
And I don't think we realizehow much time it takes to make a
friend.
It's not because youencountered somebody twice and then
you feel like, gosh, theydidn't really pay much attention
to me the third time.
It takes a lot more time andface to face, you know, or however
it is, like zoom or regular.

(21:30):
And so I think a lot ofpeople, we have a misconception of
that.
We'll just make friends afterone retreat or we'll make friends.
And I hope we'll make afriendly acquaintance.
But it doesn't mean they're afriend yet.
Right?
Because it takes deeper connection.
It takes that time.
So what would you just sayabout that?
Well, I think about in likeelementary school, we were forced

(21:51):
in those 200 hours offriendship because we had to sit
together in classes and wewere at lunch tables and we were
at recess.
I mean, it was eight hours aday of having to kind of find your
people.
And I think we get spoiled by that.
We graduate from college andwe have to start over again.
And that exhausting.
Or we go into the workforceout of high school and we have to
start over again, this processof making new friends.

(22:12):
And I think of the poem thatwe used to sing in Girl Scouts.
Make new friends but keep the old.
One is silver and the other is gold.
There is value in newfriendships, but there is such a
deep value in old friendshipsbecause you've done the time together,
you've put in those hours.
And, you know, I'm like you.
I travel, I'll meet people andwe'll speak together at a conference.
And what's been really neat isthere are some that I'm acquaintances

(22:36):
with now.
We just kind of catch up onsocial media.
But there are one or two whohave become golden girls in my life.
The ones who will send me thetext message at midnight, who will
send me a word ofencouragement that will mail me a
package that will say, let'sjust get away for a weekend and go
pray.
Like, those are the ones thatare sticking, and they're the rare
ones.
I think that's also somethingreally important to note.

(22:57):
I'm not running around with anentourage of women.
I've got one or two that aremy golden friends, and then I've
got the silver friends, and Ilove them, my.
My newer friends.
But I think it's reallyimportant for women to understand
that at 45 or 50, you may nothave 12, you may not have 24, you
may have three, but those arethe ones that God has really wrapped
you up in with that timecommitment, and that's all you can

(23:19):
have to offer.
Great.
Like, but it's better.
You know, it's.
What is that?
Scripture?
And that says that it's one orone is good, two is better, but of
three strands, it's not easily broken.
That's speaking of the Holy Spirit.
I believe in the.
In the Trinity, but I alsobelieve it's true of friendship,
too.
Yeah, well, and I think youbring up a good point, which is,
yeah, you're never going to.

(23:39):
You're not going to typicallyhave more than a.
A small group of close, closefriends that you can go to with anything,
right?
And because one, it's.
It's hard to maintain that.
That level of time, just.
Just in that way.
But.
So the goal is to at leasthave one close, meaningful relationship,
you know, especially a female relationship.

(24:00):
I mean, you know, obviouslywe're not really talking so much
about, like, marriage andthose things as much today, but.
And then you're gonna havecircles go out from there, right,
of friendships and community.
So then you do want the people that.
Yeah, you can reach out to agroup of women and say, hey, I would
love to have you guys over.
Let's meet for coffee.
Let's, you know, do something.
So you're gonna have different circles.
I have women in myneighborhood where some of them I

(24:22):
don't see very often.
Some of them I do, but I will text.
Others will text sometimes tome, like, hey, who can go walking?
Right?
Who can go walking?
And one time, sometimes it'sone person, sometimes it's four or
five of us.
Like, it's just kind of who's free.
But, like, there's differentcircles of friendship and how regularly
I see those women.
So we're going to havedifferent circles.
But that also helps bring us together.

(24:44):
Right.
That helps strengthen thecommunity because you don't have
to be the closest friend, right.
That doesn't have to be yourmidnight person that you call, but
it's somebody that, you know,like, I Have some girlfriends, they
might call me at midnight.
They're not my closest,closest friends, but they know if
their daughter needed to bepicked up from school because I have
a flexible schedule, like,they put me on their list, you know,

(25:06):
because they do know that myschedule is more open.
And of course, I would dropeverything, right, Unless I was in
the middle of.
Unless it was emergency, inthe middle of an interview, and go
help them, right?
So there's just thesedifferent levels.
And so I think it's importantto know that too, right.
That everybody meet.
Doesn't need to become yourclosest friend, but they can be your
acquaintances.
They can be casual friendsthat you enjoy spending time with,

(25:28):
you know, in a.
In a different type of setting.
So, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
And like, our neighbor, wehave a cul de sac here, and I'm the
old one.
Everybody's got little babies,and my kids are the big kids.
And yeah, neighbor across theway, like, she's not a believer.
I believe she will be at some point.
But she brings over a freshloaf of sourdough bread once a week.
And I just thought about that.
I was like, you know, I lovehow without even knowing Jesus necessarily,

(25:52):
this woman knows she has a gift.
She has a love of giving.
And she does so much beauty inour neighborhood by bringing those
loaves of sour bread to justour doors once a week.
And I was thinking, like,what's my sourdough?
What is it that I have tooffer that I can bless one or two
or three women with that?
I know it might be rising as I run?

(26:13):
It may not be something that'sbeautiful, it may not be perfect,
but it's something that I'moffering as a communication point.
And I think sometimes we hoardwhat we have because we don't think
it's pretty enough or it'sgood enough.
And she's just trying everything.
She's trying bagels, she'strying muffins, she's trying cookies,
and she's bringing them to our door.
Like, I don't know if they'regood or not.
You tell me.
And I think that that'smetaphorically so beautiful just

(26:35):
to think, like, what do I havethat I am holding back because I
don't think it's good enough,but that another woman would feast
on for a week.
Yes.
Oh, my gosh, that's so true.
I mean, so I also live in acul de sac, and while I don't see
my neighbors, we don't gettogether all the time.
We do, you know, invite eachOther over, you know, sometimes just
the ladies, sometimes theladies, the guys and the girls.

(26:57):
But at Christmas time forsure, or like when new neighbor moves
in, right?
We'll definitely kind of, weall bring each other stuff.
Some of us like myself, bringbaked goods that I make.
Other people are like, I don'thave the time, they just drop something,
whatever it is off.
And our, our newest neighbor,I guess in the cul de sac, she's
been here, she moved herduring COVID and you know, she's
always texting like, oh mygosh, you guys are just so nice.

(27:18):
And I would say most of mycourt is Christian.
It identifies, you know, Christians.
But we don't all talk aboutour faith all the time.
And we definitely havedifferent views on different topics,
you know, and yet.
But the point is, is we're alljust open hearted towards each other
regardless of where we arewith our viewpoints, our politics,
our faith.

(27:38):
It doesn't really matter.
We are neighbors, right?
And so to your point, we justshare what we have.
We share our homes sometimeswith each other.
And you bring up a good point.
I think sometimes people hesitate.
Not only like, what do theyhave that they can give, right?
Like I have girlfriends thatif they start crocheting or they
start doing some thing forChristmas, they'll give the thing

(28:01):
that they, they've beenmaking, right?
To some, to some of us, whichis so beautiful because I bake, I
cook, I do all that, but I'mnot, I'm not a sewer or a crocheter
so that I don't have that gift anyways.
But it's like sometimes you'reso right.
People think like, oh, thisisn't enough, this isn't good enough
or oh, it's only homemade.
Instead of realizing like Ihave so many friends that they don't

(28:22):
cook, right?
I mean I have a lot of womenfriends that cook, but I have other
women friends that they don'tcook very often.
So like bringing themsomething that you made and you didn't
just go get at the store.
I'm.
Sometimes they're like, wow,this is so good.
Like I would never have made,taken the time.
Even my mom says that, youknow, I'm one of five.
She's like, I if it, if itwasn't under 20 minutes to make it,
it was never going to happen.
Whereas I'll be like, oh, ittook like four hours.

(28:42):
Like it's fine, like, you knowwhat I mean?
But because we all havedifferent abilities and interests
and I would just encouragewomen listening to Say, hey, it doesn't
have to be anything.
It can literally be thatyou're the person that invites people
in, or like you said, you'rethe person that was thinking of your
neighbor.
You don't have to be evenclose to them.
They don't have to be, youknow, Christian, but that they said
something and maybe theyseemed a little down and you dropped

(29:04):
flowers off on their porch.
Right.
It's, it's like if what's inyour heart.
And a lot of times it's thoselittle tiny promptings.
And when we listen to them, Ithink more of those happen, more
of those come, and we get toshow up in the world in these little
ways.
But they actually have a big impact.
Yes.
And that's why in the taglineof my book, it's, I don't even like

(29:24):
women and other lies that getin the way of sacred sisterhood.
And I think about what thoselies are, and I think a couple of
the lies, and I don't evenreally write about this in the book
so much, but I think that oneof the lies is, is that my sacred
sisters have to be my best friends.
When I think of the wordsacred, I think of it just being
a safe friend.
I don't think of it as beinglike, braid our hairs and, you know,

(29:46):
going to Chicago for girlsweekends every couple of months.
What this is, is I'm going tobe a sanctuary for any woman who
needs a place of rest.
And if that is food, if that'spicking up their child, if that is
a phone call, any woman shouldbe able to look at me and say, that's
a sacred sister.
That's a safe sister.
That's a set apart sister.

(30:08):
And I think the lie is, as weare Christian women, is that all
of my friends have to be Christians.
And I think about that and I'mlike, well, in an ideal world, maybe
if we've grown up in thechurch or we went to Christian college,
that's been our narrative.
But really, some of the mostsafest sisters I have met have been
outside of the church.
And I think that's somethingthat we need to be open to for our

(30:32):
own growth, but also forevangelical reasons.
Like, we are to be the lightof the world, the salt of the earth.
Like we are to go in and to bethat woman.
And so what better way than tolike introduce other people to Jesus?
And so I want to debunk thatlie that like all of our sisters
have to be Christian, becauseI think that really does limit us

(30:54):
to not Just proximity topeople, but also to growing and to
practicing the GreatCommission that we've been called
to take out.
Absolutely.
I mean, I have, you know, likeI said, I have plenty of friends.
I mean, I have some that, youknow, they might believe in God.
They wouldn't really.
They don't really know thatthey call themselves a Christian,
but they're kind of strugglingwith, what do I think about all this?

(31:14):
Because they see some of thedarkness in the world and they just
can't quite grapple with it yet.
But you know what?
Over years of knowing them,sometimes we'll be on a walk by ourselves
and they'll find they'll,like, we'll have this very deep conversation
about God and about why might.
Why does he let that happen?
And so over time, you know,some of those things come up because

(31:37):
like you said, how we are inthe world, how we are handling things,
how we seem calmer or we seemto process all the darkness or all
of the things that.
Don't get me wrong, there's somuch good, but there's also.
Right.
The other side of it.
And the other thing is I.Yeah, some of my closest friends,
you know, are Jewish.
Like, whatever.
Like, it's.
It's all over the place, youknow, and it's.

(31:58):
It's important.
Right.
We get different perspectives.
We have different types ofconversations, you know, and like
you said, our.
Our job isn't just to befriends with other Christians, you
know, it's.
Yeah.
Anyway, so I absolutely agreewith what you said about that.
That I love that.
So what else would you justshare with us about, I think so many

(32:19):
women.
And when you share in yourbook about one of the reasons maybe
we struggle with kind of beingthat safe space, that sacred sister,
or finding that, you know, inthe world or in the church is the.
We feel, like you said, we'vebeen hurt, we've been persecuted.
We feel like it's that we'rebeing compared right.
To the other women, forwhatever reason, the way we dress,
the way they come off.

(32:40):
They already have people inthe church, they know, you know,
we feel like an outsider.
But what else would you justshare with us about that?
Like, how do we, I guess,overcome that?
How do we allow ourselves tobe more opened?
For me, it's been encouragingto go to the scriptures and to look
at historically how God usedwomen together.
Excuse me, women together, toreally propel his gospel forward.

(33:02):
And when I see my sisters asmy collaborators and not my competition,
it almost begins to challengeme of, wow, what could we accomplish
together.
And so when we look at healthychurch ladies, we have to realize
that we make up a huge portionof the local church.
And when we look at our handsand what we're in, we're in kids

(33:22):
ministry, we're in youthministry, we're in administration.
Some of us are preaching andteaching and leading worship.
When you see at how muchinfluence we have in the church,
it is vital that we are healthy.
And so I look at like therelationship between Deborah and
JL we know they weren't likenecessarily friends.
You know, Deborah was sittingunder her palm of Deborah.
She was showing up every day,rightly judging the people of Israel

(33:44):
through hearing from God.
And then we have Jael, a tentdwelling woman who's just minding
her own business, moving herfamily city to city, as the Lord
says, go.
And together, somehow the Lordunites these women to overcome an
enemy and SISERA.
And then 40 years of peacefalls on Israel because of the obedience
of Deborah to speak what Godhad given her and the actions of

(34:06):
Jael to actually execute whatneeded to be done.
And I think that had Deborahtried to micromanage Jael or if JL
thought, well, I'm not as goodas Deborah at this, they could have
not seen 40 years of peace in Israel.
And so for us as women in thechurch, we have to stop worrying
about what other women aredoing, how they're operating.
We got to get our eyes fixedon our own hearts, our own journeys,

(34:28):
and begin to invite women into partner with us in what God is
doing.
And that is where we're goingto see peace in the church.
We're going to see it in thatElizabeth and Mary relationship,
where Mary goes running toElizabeth and says like, hey, you're
pregnant.
I'm pregnant.
Elizabeth's been dying for a child.
She looks at Mary, she couldhave been like, hey, Mary, way to
steal my thunder.
I've been wanting a kid forthis long.

(34:49):
Now you're coming in andyou're going to give birth to the
son of God.
Like, that's crazy.
No, Mary and them are standingtogether and Elizabeth starts prophesying
over what Mary is carrying.
Not in competition with, butin collaboration with.
Because we all know Elizabethwas carrying John the Baptist, who
would be the holy harbingerfor Jesus, which would go be a forerunner
for him, which means that youand I are constantly in partnership,

(35:13):
either a forerunner for eachother's gifts or a partner and a
sister in the faith tochampion what the other carries.
What I carry is not incompetition with what any other woman
carries.
So that's a very long answerto just encourage the women to say,
like, if we could justunderstand the power that we have
in collaboration in thechurch, we could literally see an
enemy defeated through ourunity, through the power of the Holy

(35:35):
Spirit, and bring more peopleback into the safety of the sanctuary
of our local churches simplyby being the daughters God has called
us to be.
Oh my gosh, that's so good.
Also, I wanted to take aminute to let you know, if you haven't
already, on my website, I haveseveral really powerful workbooks.
Some of them are five dayworkbooks and some of them are a

(35:57):
15 day divisional, but theyare workbooks that are totally free
to download that can help youreignite your passion.
Just get back in touch withthe things that God has put on your
heart that you are interestedin and how he might want to use you.
Moving forward.
We have a joyful devotionaland so many other things.
But if you want to be inspiredand encouraged as you walk to deepen

(36:21):
your faith, to deepen yourrelationships, and to move forward
to everything God has for you,head over to KristenFitch.com, grab
whichever workbook resonatesmost with your devotional and come
join my community.
Let me empower and uplift youeach week.
Yeah, and you also talk about that.
I think sometimes we forgetthat every interaction we have with

(36:45):
another woman, right?
Younger, older, same age, isan opportunity and that we, we forget
that we are influencing.
Right?
I think you say you wereinfluencing every female and what
would you just share with usabout that?
Because it's so importantwhether they're a young person, you
know, or whether they're olderor the older women, you know, obviously
influencing older.

(37:05):
But I think a lot of us forgetpeople are always watching and people
are always taking note.
I mean, we see therelationship between Ruth and Naomi
and that whole dialogue ofwhere you go, I go, your people will
be my people, your God will bemy God.
I mean that, that's oneexample of multi generational loyalty
that could have been trauma,bonded, but actually ended up being
a really healthy example ofwhy older women need younger women.

(37:27):
Younger people need older women.
We even see Paul talking toTimothy and praising the lowest and
the Eunice that was inTimothy's life, his grandmother and
his mother.
And that's why so many timeswomen, I think we have to ask ourselves,
like, who's my lowest andwho's my Eunice?
Who is it that is going to beto be mentoring me?
Who am I going to Be mentoring.
And the church is really goodat elevating young people because

(37:49):
they have all of the newestbells and whistles, all the technology,
but we can't have a bunch oflittle young people whose frontal
lobes haven't even formed yet,not having women who have already
gone before them feeding into them.
And so this is reallyimportant that older women understand
that you're not done yet ifyou still have air in your lungs.

(38:10):
We need you 80 year old womento be mentoring us in our 50s and
our 40s and our 30s so that wecan mentor those in their teens and
twenties.
And that is why I have such astrong passion for multi generational
leadership in the church.
To avoid and basicallysomething going instinct, like an
entire generation goinginstinct because we extinct because

(38:34):
we are not valuing what theybring to the table.
Oh my gosh, it's so good.
And you know, if you payattention to what people say, like
for instance, younger people,when I listen to some of the younger
young ladies, I guess, right.
High school, coming out ofhigh school into college because
of the impact of all themessages they're being bombarded

(38:55):
with.
Not that when we were growingup there weren't messages, but it's
definitely right more theamount or it can be right depending
on how much you're on yourphone or social and stuff.
But I'll hear them sometimesand it's like, oh, my hair doesn't
look perfect.
Oh, my curls.
You know, it's like they're soworried about the perfect picture
and they're so worried about.
And it's like, you know, if Ihave a relationship with some of
them, I'll, you know, I'lljust have to like say to them in

(39:17):
a note or say to them inperson, you have always looked beautiful
inside and out.
Like you've.
Their hair's never looked like.
It's like they're so focusedon this detail which doesn't matter.
And oh, by the way, it neverwas even a thing.
But it's like to your point,it's like we always have this opportunity
to be encouraging women and touplift them and to let them know

(39:38):
like who they are and what wesee, right?
And what we see, what we seeand who they're becoming.
And I think the other, theother point of that is a lot of times
this is a struggle witheveryone, men and women, but we're
not present.
We don't realize that we're socaught up in our own busyness, our
own to do lists, our phones,whatever it might be that we aren't

(39:59):
present.
And so we're missing those opportunities.
Right.
We're missing thoseopportunities to encourage uplift,
to mentor, to have aconversation, to have missed the
look someone had that theyjust maybe are having the hardest
day.
But we just walked right by them.
We didn't say hello, we didn'tsay something.
Right.
Even in the grocery store.
So, you know, I think that's abig thing, is, is a lot of us, people

(40:21):
in general, that Christianswere not being present and we're
missing those opportunitiesthat God wanted us to actually connect
with that person in that moment.
Yeah.
And to speak to the Gen X women.
And that would be us, I'massuming, like, you know, we didn't
have a model of this and Idon't mean to dog the generation
before us.
The baby boomers had their ownchallenges, the traditionalists had

(40:43):
their own challenges, butreally Gen X has become the forgotten
generation within the church.
We've been this bridgegeneration that we didn't have it
modeled for us from babyboomer women, especially how to lead.
And you think about like ussitting down and having this conversation,
like how rich this would havebeen for me as a 20 year old to listen

(41:04):
to a conversation like this ofsomeone 20 years ahead of me and
think, oh, I'm going to be fine.
This is going to be all right.
We didn't have this model for us.
So to the Gen X generation,we've got to do a little bit of like
more work than what we realizebecause we're having to recruit,
like literally createsomething that had not existed before
and that is women discipling a generation.

(41:25):
We have not had that unless wesought it out, unless there was a
woman who was just on fire inthe church.
Some of us have been takenunder wings, but I would say 95%
we've had to try to figure itout on our own as a generation.
So this is going to be a lotharder work for us mentally and spiritually
because some of us feel alittle jaded, like where were the
mentors for us?

(41:46):
So it should feel a little bituncomfortable because you're basically
blazing a trail that was notblazed for you.
And as a generation, I dobelieve we are pioneers in some of
this work that's happening inthe church.
That's really good.
And I'm glad you brought thatup because, yeah, it's a good point.
And it wasn't even one thathad crossed my mind.
But it makes so much sense, right?
Being from obviously havingjust being a couple years older than

(42:08):
you so yeah, absolutely,that's, that's a really good point.
And you know, I think that'sanother point is like you said there,
there you talked aboutearlier, there is a revival in the
church, right.
A lot of people that I followor see, right.
That are really involved inthat, especially you know, going
to campuses and doing allthese things, you, you're seeing
it, right?
Just this, this fire for Christ.

(42:29):
I just saw an article theother day, right.
In the uk, I think churchattendance with people, the Gen Xers
has really exploded recently.
So that's so exciting.
But to your point, I thinkyou're right, there's so that's,
you know, that's going on,that's happening.
But then like you said, theGen Xers, I think you're right.
A lot of us have sort of beenon this really curvy path.

(42:50):
You know, everyone's pathlooks a little bit different, you
know.
So whether it was like yousaid, people said, oh, I'm going
to go do online church, I'mgonna, whatever it is.
I think you're right though.
A lot of us didn't havesomebody like all my family was Christians,
people of faith.
But you're right, they weremore the people that didn't talk
about faith so much.
You just had your faith andyou practiced your faith.
But it was much more of aprivate thing, you know what I mean?

(43:13):
Like you go to, you do go tochurch, you do this.
But it wasn't, I didn't growup evangelical or anything like that.
And so it was, it was more ofa, like you do these things, you
know, maybe read the Bible,you know, those types of things.
But like you said, I didn'thave a older or woman mentor when
I was 20 or 30 or.
I mean I had some people insome church groups I was in, but

(43:34):
they, we all came together ina bigger group.
So it wasn't like a one on onewhere I would go and talk to them.
So I think, think it's a, itreally is a strong and good point
that you bring up that ifyou're somebody more towards our
age, that we can still findthose things and we can definitely
be part of that for youngerwomen and that we're called to do
that.
Yeah.
And it's going to be uncomfortable.

(43:54):
I mean, I can remember, I meanthe greatest gift that I got out
of going to a publicuniversity that wasn't Christian
was having an online ministrylike Campus Crusade where discipleship
was a core value of that ministry.
So rather than thinking ofyourself, Jen, Exer as like, oh,
I've got to like, like solvethe problems of the 20 year old.
You know, really what you areis you're just being available, which

(44:18):
I think we often felt like wewere inconveniences, like if we needed
something that we were goingto be putting somebody out rather
than really opening up theirarms and saying, hey, I want you
in my life.
And so that's, that's going tofeel uncomfortable.
It's going to be like askingsomebody out on a date to ask someone
to be your mentor.
That's going to feel reallyalmost like kind of traumatizing
for some of us.

(44:38):
But then also to inviteyounger women and say, hey, if you
have time, I'd love to buy youa cup of coffee.
That's actually like scary toobecause we feel that rejection or
we feel, I don't know if Ihave the answers.
We don't have to have the answers.
We just need to be available.
Yeah.
And sometimes it might juststart with as simply as saying like,
hey, you know, like I'm hereif you ever want to, you know, you

(44:59):
need an ear, someone tolisten, or you just need a prayer.
Right.
Or so sometimes it just, itdoesn't even have to be an invitation
to do something yet.
It's just letting them know,like, I'm available to you and let
them decide, you know, what I,you know, it might be a month later
that they're like, gosh, Ireally could use someone to listen
to me that I feel like is a,you know, a kind of a older, more

(45:23):
maybe settled, in some ways person.
And so, you know, sometimesit's just the letting them know,
like, I'm available to you.
Let me ask you this.
What other message maybe thatwe haven't really dove into yet would
you just want to share withwomen or encourage women or just,
just kind of, you know, get,get the message out to them.
Well, you had said earliertalking about like how when women

(45:44):
lead with passion, when womenlead with emotion, like there's always
these negative stigmas.
And I, I just want toreiterate kind of what we've been
saying, but like God createdwomen different on purpose.
Like we are the feminine heartof the Father.
He didn't make us as a side thought.
We aren't like second place.
He made us with great intentionality.
And so when I hear people saywomen are so emotional or women are

(46:06):
so dramatic or women are suchdrama queens or whatever it is, like
those are all ways of likesaying things that we don't really
actually want to say, whichis, I don't feel like I was ever
heard.
I don't feel like people valuewhat I have to say.
We use these blanketstatements to actually define these
moments of insecurity where wedid feel like a second thought, we

(46:29):
did feel like we had to getlouder to be seen.
We did feel like we had tocompete seat to get that seat at
the table.
And to remind you that God isso for you, he, he is not up there
thinking, a man could havedone this better or oh, you're too
emotional for that.
Like, we've got to get betterat being able to describe women in
a way that doesn't make itsound negative.

(46:51):
Because really, at the end ofthe day, when I go into a meeting
and I cry, it's not becauseI'm unhinged.
It's because when the presenceof God hits me, I weep in the presence
of God.
And when I am working towardssomething that feels justice driven
or I'm passionate about seeingpeople healed and I cry, it's not
because I lack emotional awareness.
It's because as a woman, whenthe Holy Spirit touches my heart,

(47:13):
that's going to be my response.
So women, you don't have totry to become like a man to lead
or to do anything.
You just need to lead from thefeminine heart of the Father.
Emotional regulation is really important.
And I talk about emotional IQin the book because we don't want
to go in and steamroll roomsand not have emotional awareness.
But also we don't have to dumbdown how God created us and dress

(47:35):
a certain way and speak acertain way just to try to be something
that we're not.
And so just remember, like,you are beautiful and perfect as
God made you.
You're not a second thought.
He's perfect in all he creates.
But there is always space forpersonal development and growth and
to search our own hearts andask the Lord, where have I been using
my emotions to manipulate?

(47:57):
Where have I been using myfemininity in a way that has been
more manipulative thanscriptural and biblical?
And those are just good thingsfor us to ask ourselves when we have
to say, oh, it's me.
Hi, I'm the problem.
It's me.
Because sometimes women, weare the problem.
Which is why biblicalaccountability and having mentors
in our lives is so important.

(48:19):
Absolutely.
So much of that.
Wow.
So I would just add to that, Ithink, for first of all, as women,
at least at this age, I findthat so many people and I, you know,
I don't Love the word.
But midlife women, a lot of ushave allowed our voices to be, we

(48:41):
hesitate, I guess, sometimesto speak up or to, to use our voice
to express ourselves.
And it's because of theculture, it's because it could be
church, but it's.
That has happened.
And so a lot of times we nowhave to get that confidence back,
right?
Like pray to God.
Like, I, I want to speak, Iwant to share, you know, I want to,
you know, like you said, Iwant to be in the rooms.

(49:02):
And that means I need to beable to use my voice.
I need to be confident thatGod has me and wants me there and
I have something to share,something to say.
So I would just encourage women.
You, you know, we are meant tobe there.
And like you said, we might doit different, say it different, but
we do have to know that wehave a voice and that we don't want
to say nothing because we'renot sure if we're going to be, you

(49:27):
know, criticized.
I even live in a house of allmen, right?
My husband and three sons,college age sons.
And it can be trickysometimes, you know, because they
don't.
We literally like the Mars and Venus.
I will say something andthey'll be like, you're so off.
What are you talking about?
Like, they just, just we, wekind of drew a lot.
And so, you know, and I haveto, I have to make sure that I don't

(49:49):
get overly sensitive to thatbecause they're not trying to be
criticized, critical orcriticize me.
It can come off that way, butthey just, that's not how something
hits them.
That's not how they perceive something.
And I just have to be reallycareful and remind myself, right?
I was designed to come intorooms and be different.
I was designed, like you said,with this feminine heart.

(50:11):
And so I just encourage womenjust because you end up in rooms,
whether it's in your home oryour work environment or your community
or your church.
And you're not, you might bethe only woman sometimes, right?
And it's okay, like, you canstill speak, you, you still have
some things to share and sodon't let your light be dimmed.

(50:31):
But I would also say Iinterviewed a lady years ago or two
years ago and she, I think sheworks with people in pr, but she
said, women, just like yousaid about personal development,
we have to learn how to speak confidently.
And what that means is like,instead of saying like, well, I think,
or we use these little wordsthat diminish what we're trying to
say.
And so she taught, she teachesanyone, but especially women, how

(50:53):
to speak with more authorityby just shifting some of our language
just slightly.
But it's kind of what you saidis by keep, by continuing to keep
grow in our faith and in ourpersonal development, we learn how
to speak with more authorityso that people hear us.
I think.
Which is really important.
I think as well, yeah, it was.

(51:15):
Really mind boggling for mewhen I went through an emotional
IQ course to already know thatas a woman who's 59 and a brunette
and larger built, that when Iwalk into a room, just my presence
can come off as intimidatingto especially men who have certain
biases towards women based offof their relationship with their

(51:38):
mom, their relationship withtheir wives and their daughters.
And I remember hearing thatand thinking, that's so unfair because
a man can walk in and look anyway.
And I'm not triggered by anyof that necessarily.
But the fact that just my merepresence walking into a room can
shift a room is bothempowering and terrifying.
And then when I went into fulltime ministry and knowing that speaking

(52:00):
on a platform, that even thetimbre of my voice, the shrillness
of my voice could impact themen sitting in the room who were
screamed at by their mothersor abused by their wives.
And again, I'm thinking, well,this isn't fair because we could
say this about men too, thatmen yelling from the pulpit or singing
at a certain level wouldtraumatize women who had father issues.

(52:24):
But for whatever reason,studies were showing that when men
heard a woman's pitch at acertain level that they were less
likely to hear what that womanwas saying.
All of that was so eye openingto me to think when I go into a room,
I already have to work alittle bit harder than a man has
to work.
And that's not biblical,that's just reality.
And so in this fallen world,where that is a reality that I cannot

(52:47):
escape, what is my spiritualresponsibility before I step into
a meeting with mental health?
I'm going to pray, I'm goingto ask for supernatural self control,
the heart of the father.
I'm going to ask the Lord togive me everything.
You were just talking aboutjust being able to speak with self
awareness, with confidence.
The Father will give that tous because we're his daughters and
he's that good.

(53:08):
And so I don't want any of usto see these as bottlenecks for us
in leadership.
It's just more awareness of,okay, God, I can't do anything without
your strength, without youranointing, without Your authority.
And as I have stepped intohigher levels of leadership where
I am the only woman in theroom, the Lord has made it less about
being the only woman in theroom and being a reflection of the

(53:29):
heart's father as a daughter.
And that shifts my posture.
Absolutely.
Oh, my gosh.
Okay, so we're going to wrap up.
So last couple questions.
So now that you've written thebook, you obviously one of the messages
you share is basically how wecan all come together in community
as women.
How are coming together incollaboration instead of competition

(53:51):
literally can change the church.
It can change the work.
I shouldn't say it does changethe church.
It does change the world.
But what would you say now to women?
Like, you know, the book titlewas I Don't even like women.
So what would you say is likeyour heart for women?
Now, you shared a little bitabout that earlier, but just like
as we wrap up, what else wouldyou share about that?
You know, I think about thescripture that talks about how we

(54:13):
have to love God, love people, love.
Love is a bare minimum when itcomes to the kingdom.
Like, we just need to lovepeople well, but liking people is
a completely different scenario.
And what I'm hearing fromwomen and what I'm seeing as I'm
traveling is that as we havethis conversation, that a lot of
the reason women don't likeeach other is because they're just
not with each other.

(54:33):
But the minute that they're atthe altars praying together, the
minute they stay an extra 10minutes and have that meal together
after an event or they hangout after church and they have that
cup of coffee betweenservices, that women walk away from
each other and truly do think,man, that was a really positive experience.
I really actually like them.
And I would just say this toyou women, that a lot of the reason

(54:54):
we don't like each other isbecause we're not with each other.
And it isn't about wanting tobe the bff.
It's simply saying at the endof the day, I'm really glad that
God made women and I'm reallyglad that I'm not the only woman
and that I don't have to dothis alone.
And that is the heart cry ofthis book is that none of us have
have to do this thing calledbeing a woman alone.

(55:15):
Oh, my God, I love that.
You know, what came to methere was.
It's that often it is justsharing a meal or just being available
again, being present in thoseextra moments.
You know, I remember I haven't.
Well, I mean, not in the lastyear or so, but when I've gone to
conferences, you know, itdoesn't have to be a faith conference,
any kind of conference.

(55:35):
It could have been in tech.
It could have been anything.
And I would often be there by myself.
Right.
I didn't know anybody becauseI was going to some conference across
the country where sometimes aspeaker, but sometimes just.
Just attending.
And I would just go because Ijust felt like this is where I needed
to go or for a job I had atthe time.
And I would always be sointentional in that room, that networking

(55:56):
room, that I'd say, I'm goingto go and talk to the person that's
just standing there by themselves.
Because I feel.
I don't.
I feel uncomfortable.
I feel all alone.
But they look like they do, too.
So you know what?
I can go and start aconversation with them.
And I would, every time.
But it doesn't mean, like yousaid, it doesn't mean that I became.
They became a close connectionfor forever.
But you know, what I did is Iwas the person that just welcomed

(56:18):
other people and let them feelcomfortable in a room where I didn't
feel comfortable.
And so like you said, it'sgoing and grabbing that cup of coffee
or staying after church for afew minutes to chit chat with whoever
just to say hello.
And so I think you're right.
It's giving that little bit ofextra time makes a big difference.
Absolutely.
Oh, my gosh.

(56:38):
So, last question.
What is fueling you right nowinto summer?
August?
What's just fueling you upright now?
Well, first of all, summer ismy favorite, but this transition
from summer to fall is, like, beautiful.
Kentucky is stunning.
I think Virginia is probablykind of the same.
You get all the colors, youget all of the.
The beauty.
So right now, I love Hobby lobby.

(57:00):
I love fall candles.
I love all things pumpkin.
I am about ready to flip myhouse and my children get involved
in this.
My parents live with us.
My mom gets involved with this.
So what is fueling me rightnow, it is the promise of color and
fall.
And I am enjoying all of that.
And then I also am just reallyloving the age my kids are in, getting
to watch them go through firstdances and football games and driving.

(57:24):
It really is true thatparenting is, like one of the sweetest
things that we get to do.
And so I'm really surprised athow much I love being a teenage mom
or a mom of teenagers.
I'm really enjoying this season.
Oh, I love that.
Okay, so Natalie, can youshare with Everybody, how can they
connect with you, Learn aboutyour books, your community and all
that good stuff?
We mostly hang out over onInstagram under Raised to Stay.

(57:48):
That's where most of thecommunity is.
And then under Natalie Runyonon Facebook.
And then all books are on Amazon.
Barnes and Noble Books Books,a million Christian book.
You can get all three books there.
I Don't Even Like Women comesout September 2nd.
Oh my gosh.
So good.
We'll definitely go and checkthat book out.
If this conversation resonatedwith you and Natalie, I just want
to thank you for coming on andsharing your heart, sharing the importance

(58:10):
of us as women, understandingour, our role.
And by role, I just mean thatwhen we come together that literally
everything shifts, that we.
I think earlier you said weliterally change the temperature
of the community, right?
By a like working together andcollaborating as women in our churches
and our communities and in our homes.
And so I love that you justshared this with us today because

(58:32):
I think it was inspiring and Ihope that it encourages each of us
to just be a little moreopened that we are willing to invite
others into life, do life withus, and that maybe we're open to
mentoring or being there forother women.
So thank you for joining us.
Thank you.
As I wrap up today's episode,I just wanted to share two other

(58:55):
ideas or quotes with you thatI hope will just enrich even further
what we shared in today's episode.
The first is by Jenny Allenfrom her book Find you'd People.
She is talking about basicallythat we have to put effort forth,
right, to find our people, ourcommunities, our tribe, our fronts.

(59:17):
And she says it's choosing toprioritize each other again and again,
committing consistent timeeach day in and day out.
Sometimes that means we gethurt and sometimes it means we are
simply inconvenienced.
Then later she goes on to say,but these days, too many of us are
experts at quitting each other.
And most of us can figure outa way to hide from everyone while

(59:37):
we do it.
What I am calling you toinstead, what Paul was calling us
to, what God is calling us to,is a wholly different supernatural
mindset that is guarded,supplied and filled with Christ Jesus.
He is the way we think,relate, speak, reconcile, forgive
and love.
Because we've been given suchabundance, we give away our abundance.

(59:59):
This is our story.
This is how we live out the gospel.
And then she says, we chooseto be the inconvenienced for the
sake of each other.
If you think about it,friendship, all relationships really
is a giant inconvenience, atleast if we're doing it right.
And the inconvenience chosenagain and again changes us, wakes
us up, makes us laugh and loveand hope and dream.

(01:00:20):
Yeah, intertwining my lifewith other people is inconvenient,
but I'll take that kind oftrouble again and again over the
ease and emptiness of tryingto go it alone, to leave behind our
loneliness and enjoy thereward of community.
We have to keep showing up,keep being vulnerable, keep coming
to the table, be together,work together, and share life together
over and over again.

(01:00:40):
Then one day we look up andrealize our friendships have grown
deep.
Oh, how good is that?
And how much is that justreinforcing what Natalie shared with
us today and what we sharedabout some of the things in her book,
that it can be hard to bevulnerable, to put ourselves out
there, into communities, inour churches, in our neighborhoods,

(01:01:01):
to make, you know, just towork with other women.
But remember, what we want todo is we want to be contributors.
We want to come together andnot be there out of competition or
feel like there is somepecking order, because that is not
the intent of God's heart.
And it shouldn't be the intentof our hearts either.

(01:01:22):
The other thing I want toshare with you is from the book the
Turquoise Table, which isabout finding community and connection
in your own front yard byKristen Schell.
And if you haven't read herbook, it's a beautiful book, but
it's basically about putting apicnic table in the front yard because
that's when she can theninvite people in her neighborhood

(01:01:43):
over just for a quick cup ofcoffee where you don't have to have
your house ready and preparedor have a meal prepared.
But the overall idea of thebook is just inviting people into
our homes and our lives.
And in this case, in yourfront yard, not your home, necessarily,
but it's all about having theheart to do life with each other,
much like Natalie talks about,much like find you'd people talks

(01:02:05):
about.
So I just want to share thislittle bit with you from her book.
Kristin says, I started usingthe phrase gather small and love
deep long before I fullyrealized what it meant.
And she's talking about theidea of the table in her front yard,
which she painted turquoise, Ithink, because she liked the color,
because it also stood out.
But then she goes on to say,at first I would ask myself, doubting,

(01:02:28):
is this enough?
Is it enough to know myneighbors by name to spend an hour
simply having coffee with onlya handful of people?
Does it matter if all I do isnod my head with pursed lips and
a wrinkled brow while a friendshares her heart, is it enough to
wave at a jogger?
Does inviting half a dozenpeople for donuts in the front yard
matter with the magnitude ofproblems in the world?

(01:02:50):
Do these small gatherings atthe table matter?
And she says it took a whilefor my heart to catch up to my head.
My impulsive side, you know,the one that painted the picnic table
turquoise and plopped it inthe front yard, believed without
a shred of doubt that beingpresent in the front yard matters.
I recognize it now as faith.
Not something I control or doon my own, but God's gift to me to

(01:03:11):
keep going, to keep sitting atthe table, to keep loving my neighbors
as he intends for us all to do.
I was hearing faint whispersof encouragement as I realized God
was saying it matters to mewhen you show up, I'm at work.
Hospitality always feels smallwhen you hold it in your hands.
It's not until you let it gorelease like an offering that you

(01:03:33):
see how extravagant andhallowed it is.
Sometimes I don't feelanything happening, which in our
instant gratification andquick fix society feels like failure.
Building Community Investingin the lives right in front of us
requires us to take the long view.
Eugene Peterson refers to thistype of relationship, relationship
building as the long obediencein the same direction.

(01:03:57):
How beautiful is that?
So if you needed just a littlebit more encouragement after my conversation
today, I hope that JennyAllen's words and Kristen Schell's
words and Natalie's words helpencourage you in your own lives to
be the person that invitesother people in, that invites other

(01:04:17):
people to feel welcome andseen and that they have a seat at
the table, whether it's insideyour church or at a gathering or
in your neighborhood ormeeting for coffee or even in your
front yard.
And if you have a story toshare that's about you felt the same
way that you know, you weren'teven sure that you didn't.
You liked other women becauseof sometimes how you felt or your

(01:04:40):
past, but you really knew deepdown that you needed the connection
community of women.
If you found yourself when youdecided to be open hearted and welcome
others in that, it changedyour community, it changed your life,
it changed the temperature ofyour community.
I'd love to hear about it.
You can reach out to me on Instagram.

(01:05:01):
You can DM me, I'm Kristen Fitch.
Or you can reach me on mywebsite kristenfitch.com through
the contact form.
Thanks again for listening tothe show.
And if you if you enjoyedtoday's episode, we would love it
if you could take a minute toleave a rating and review on Apple
podcast because it helps ourshow get discovered by more people.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}I Don’t Even Like Women? Breaking Lies, Building Sisterhood in Church with Natalie Runion