July 23, 2025 • 66 mins
What happens when love isn't enough? When trauma runs so deep that having your child live at home becomes unsafe for everyone involved? This raw, vulnerable conversation with Anna Bernacki pulls back the curtain on one of foster care and adoption's most painful realities – the moment when residential treatment becomes necessary.
Anna brings a uniquely powerful perspective as both an adoptee herself and an adoptive mother to four children through foster care. She shares the heartbreaking journey of having two children require residential placement, walking us through the complex emotions of loving from a distance. With unflinching honesty, she describes the shame that engulfed her when realizing her home couldn't provide what her daughter needed, the PTSD she developed from traumatic experiences before placement, and the guilt that haunted her with every empty seat at the dinner table.
Yet within this painful story emerges profound wisdom. Anna explains how distance sometimes allows authentic attachment to form where proximity once created threat. She details practical strategies for maintaining connection – setting clear boundaries for phone calls, explaining unavailability in advance to ease anxiety, and showing up consistently despite verbal abuse or rejection. Her insights into how siblings process this separation will resonate with any parent navigating the impact on their whole family system.
Perhaps most valuable is Anna's candid discussion of faith through uncertainty. She wrestles openly with trusting God's plan while sometimes losing hope that healing will come in her lifetime – a tension many parents in crisis understand deeply. Her vulnerability creates space for others to acknowledge similar struggles without shame.
For those walking similar paths, this conversation offers confirmation you're not alone. For those supporting families in crisis, it provides crucial perspective on the complexity of these decisions. And for anyone connected to the foster care world, it issues a powerful call to develop more trauma-informed systems at every level.
Whether you're currently facing these impossible choices or simply want to better understand the full spectrum of foster care and adoption experiences, this episode will expand your compassion and challenge preconceived notions about what successful parenting looks like in the shadow of severe trauma.
Anna's IG: @Anna.Bernacki
I'd love to hear from you! Send me a text!
Connect with me on Instagram: @Fosterparentwell
@nicoletbarlow https://www.instagram.com/nicoletbarlow/
Website: https://nicoletbarlow.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey friend, welcome back to the Foster Parent Well
podcast.
We're doing something specialthis summer because, let's be
real, summer is loud andschedules are wild.
So, in the spirit of keepingthings simple and soul-filling,
we're hitting rewind All summerlong.
I'll be sharing some of myfavorite episodes from the past,
conversations that encouragedme, challenged me and reminded
(00:22):
me that God is still workingeven when life feels messy.
If you're new here, it's theperfect time to jump in, and if
you've been around for a while,think of this like a little
refresher, like your spiritualiced coffee on a hot summer day.
So let's soak in some truth,lean into God's grace and keep
showing up for the hard and holywork that we've been called to.
(00:43):
Let's jump into this Rewindepisode.
Welcome to the Foster ParentWell podcast, where we have real
candid, faith-filledconversations about all things
foster care, adoption and trauma.
(01:04):
I'm your host, nicole T Barlow.
I'm a certified parent trainer,a certified health coach and an
adoptive parent myself.
This is a space where you canfind support so that you can
care for your kids with asteadfast faith, endurance and
joy.
I want you to foster parentwell, so let's jump in.
Welcome to the Foster ParentWell podcast.
(01:41):
My name is Nicole T Barlow andI am your host.
Well, today, you guys, we have alittle bit of a longer podcast
for you, and I got to be honest,I'm a little nervous about this
one.
I open up in this podcasttelling a part of our foster
(02:01):
care and adoption story that wehave not really told publicly
yet.
I mean, our community, thepeople that are in our lives in
real life, know this part of ourstory, but I have not shared
this on the podcast before.
But I do think some of theseharder conversations, digging
into some of these harder topics, are so important.
(02:25):
But I would ask you this Iwould ask that you give us grace
.
We are trying to navigate thesereally difficult and hard
conversations with grace, butthere may be times where we say
something or where you knowsomething comes out in a way
(02:46):
that is received differentlythan we mean it, and so I want
to preface this podcast by justsaying you know, I think, as
adoptive parents, we love ourkids.
We would lay down our lives forour kids.
We would lay down our lives forour kids and we want to honor
(03:10):
our kids and their stories.
But also, if we are not sayingthe hard things, if we're not
talking about the realchallenges of foster care, of
adoption, of trauma and theeffects of trauma, then we're
doing a disservice to everybody.
We're alienating foster parents, adoptive parents that are
(03:35):
going through some of thesebigger challenges because, you
guys, this is stuff that nobodyis really talking about.
So my guest today is AnnaBernacki.
She's a wife and a mom to fourchildren who were adopted
through foster care, and as anadoptee herself.
Anna's life has been shaped bythe profound themes of identity,
(03:58):
belonging and unconditionallove.
She brings a deeply personalperspective to her work as an
educator for foster and adoptivefamilies, especially those
navigating the complexities ofspecial needs parenting.
As a mother of two children whohave required placement in
residential treatment facilities, anna knows the heartbreak and
(04:20):
perseverance it takes to lovefrom a distance.
She has walked the difficultpath of advocating for her
children's safety and healing,while striving to maintain
connection and fosterrestoration within her family.
In the midst of these challenges, anna has leaned on her faith,
finding strength in God'spromises and hope in His ability
(04:42):
to bring beauty from brokenness.
And hope in his ability tobring beauty from brokenness and
that's what we're going to betalking to Anna about today is
when you have kids that need tolive outside of the home, that
need to be placed outside of thehome, whether for a short
season or for a longer season.
How do we navigate thosechallenges?
So let's jump right in.
(05:02):
Well, welcome, anna to the show.
I'm so excited to have you heretoday, and I've really been
looking forward to thisconversation because I think
that what we're going to discusstoday can really be impactful
for so many people.
So, as we get started, tell mea little bit about your story
(05:23):
and how you got into foster carein the adoption world.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
So I actually am adopted myself, so adoption was
more normal than anything elseto me.
My siblings are adopted as well.
None of us are biologicallyrelated, so having a family that
was not biologically related toeach other was my normal.
Something I always searched for, always wanted, was that
(05:50):
biological connection.
It defines a lot of mychildhood.
Honestly, I really just wouldlay in bed and dream about it.
I wanted that so badly and so,after getting married and
thinking about family, I wantedbiological children more than
anything else in the world.
And then God said nope, that'snot my plan for your life.
(06:13):
So we ended up kind of exploringdifferent adoption avenues and
really landed back with thereare children who need homes.
Right now we have extrabedrooms in our home.
Let's fill them, and we reallywanted to do sibling groups.
So that's what we did.
(06:33):
We started fostering and weended up adopting our first two
placements after 18 months.
So it was super fast case.
We did not expect that at all.
We thought we'd foster and havekind of a revolving door for a
while, but that did not happenat all.
And then we got two youngerchildren and we have now.
(06:57):
That was a much longer case,but we have now adopted them as
well.
So we have four adoptedchildren through the foster care
system.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Oh, wow, that's awesome.
Well, what was your viewgrowing up being adopted?
What was your view of adoption?
I know you said you kind ofalways dreamed of your
biological that side of yourfamily, but did you have a good
experience being adopted?
Did you have a negativeexperience?
(07:24):
I know everybody's experiencesvary so much.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, I think I never knew any other adoptees when I
was younger.
So you know, as a child youbelieve the narrative that
you're given.
Right, it's beautiful.
God created you to be in ourfamily.
You were born for us.
(08:02):
You know kind of that narrativeand it was 18.
Wow, and even then it wasreally hard to find.
So I mean now with the internetit's a lot easier.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
That was pretty common back then that things
were done that way, right it?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
was.
Yeah, it was very common.
But I think it added an elementthat a lot of people today may
not understand, becauseadoptions are typically more
open, or at least you know whothe parents are.
There's more information givennow.
Um, so that was definitely astruggle.
(08:36):
Growing up, there was thatinternal struggle of like I
should feel fine here.
I was told I had no traumabecause I was straight Well, I
wasn't straight from thehospital.
I was taken straight from thehospital and then I was in
foster care for a very shorttime before placed in my
adoptive family.
So I don't know, I just neverthought of myself as having
(08:57):
trauma.
I've lived this beautiful lifeand I really did.
I was very privileged.
I had a wonderful childhoodgrowing up and then as an adult
and going through the adoptionprocess with my own kids and
watching them grieve becausethey knew their parents and
watching them grieve, I was like, oh, this is what I missed out
(09:20):
on.
This is those same feelings Ihad.
I just didn't have a parent toconnect that to.
So it was kind of this mysteryfeeling of why am I grieving
people I don't even know?
I don't even know their name,and so then I was able to kind
of connect the dots and realize.
And then I started grieving allover.
I didn't really grieve myadoption and process all of that
(09:41):
until I was an adult andwalking my own kids through it.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Wow, that's amazing how watching their experience
kind of gives context to whatyou were feeling and I'm sure
you were able to be much moreempathetic to them in their
grief, since you I mean you wereprocessing in real time your
own stuff Exactly.
Yeah, well, how has traumaimpacted your kids and your
family now, like as an adult,and I mean you've you talked
(10:14):
about how that has kind ofstirred things up in you, but
what have you seen as theimpacts of of trauma on your
family?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I mean the impacts of trauma on our family are
tremendous.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
I know like what area doesn't it touch right, right,
right.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, it is tremendous and I think you know
there's a broad spectrum.
Each one of our children hastheir own struggles and I don't
think I mean we have manydiagnoses between all the kids.
It's not.
We certainly do not have atypical family.
I don't even know what thatlooks like, I have no context
(10:51):
for what that is but each onehas really struggled in their
own way.
So our two oldest kids wereadopted at well.
They came to us at six and 10.
We're adopted at well.
They came to us at six and 10and then we're adopted at eight
and 11.
I think just the way theirbirthdays fall, so it was eight
(11:12):
and 11.
Um, and because they were olderand experienced so much more
trauma in the home, like theirstory is still unfolding, we
still find new things out, andit was truly a horrific.
I mean you look at asix-year-old.
I have another six-year-old nowand I look at her and I'm like
(11:34):
the stuff that that child wentthrough before coming to our
home is so unreal andunbelievable.
It's a world that so manypeople cannot even comprehend,
and so I think kind of seeingtheir struggles in a different
(11:55):
way Now.
Our younger two had a lot ofprenatal trauma, so that comes
out in a different way.
Yes, we got them straight fromthe hospital.
That does not spare them fromtrauma.
It does not.
So it's been very, verydifferent.
Our older kids have definitelystruggled with more mental
(12:16):
illness because of how thetrauma has affected their brain.
It's not it's not the samebrain as a healthy, typical
child.
So that has been really hard.
Our oldest daughter, when shewas, I want to say I think she
(12:36):
was 14.
She had some bullying at schoolthat we did not know about.
She's very quiet and doesn'treally share a lot.
So when we finally found outwhat was happening, she was
already really really strugglingwith wanting to still be alive
and be with us.
She had no self-worth, did notthink that she had any reason to
(13:00):
still be here.
So we ended up in the hospitalpretty rapidly two times in a
row and it was recommended to usthat she go to a residential
treatment facility.
So she went to a 90 day programin and out Absolutely
incredible.
She's thriving ever sincereally found herself worth, not
(13:24):
to say she doesn't have hermoments.
She doesn't ever struggle, shecertainly does, but she is doing
so incredible.
She did the work.
It's been.
It's been amazing.
So that was just kind of ourhappily ever after story with um
that.
And then we had our seconddaughter, who we knew when she
(13:45):
walked in that door at six yearsold.
That child was something else,like she was.
We were not naive to what wewere getting ourselves into and
many people said you're reallygoing to adopt her?
Yeah, we are, because we wereher fifth home in six months.
Wow, and it just I mean I'lllet you put the puzzle pieces
(14:10):
together on that one as to why.
So it was very challenging, butat the time we didn't have other
children in the home.
We didn't have.
We had the capacity to handleit and in a six year old you
it's much more manageablebecause they're little and you
can handle it.
So after she was adopted, thereseemed to be this huge lull in
(14:34):
all of the behaviors it reallygave her.
It seemed to give her thesecurity she needed.
She knew she wasn't goinganywhere, she was with us
forever.
This was her home.
It really gave her thatsecurity for a while Honestly a
couple of years and theneverything exploded again.
I think she was 12.
Everything exploded again andit's been a nonstop cycle since
(14:59):
then.
It's been very, very difficult.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Anna, do you think that?
And I ask this question becausethis is part of what we have
seen both in our own home and inother people that are facing
similar journeys?
We also have a child that livesin residential and has gone
(15:22):
through the hospital cycles, andone of the things that I
noticed is there is a hugeuptake at puberty.
Yes, when puberty hits, it'slike the trauma accelerates
times 30.
Yes, and it just becomes reallyhard for our kids and it just
(15:44):
becomes really hard for our kids.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
100% yes, I would love to do research on that.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
I'm sure they're out there somewhere, but it
definitely is.
It has to be a thing it is.
Well, I mean, I'm currentlywatching some other families
that have had kids that havebeen adopted and in their homes
for years, and now that they'reentering puberty it's a whole
different shift.
(16:12):
So we may have some listenersthat don't understand the world
of hospitalizations andresidential and all of that kind
of stuff.
So will you explain twodifferent things to me the
difference between, like acrisis, hospitalization,
stabilization kind of thing andresidential.
What does that mean?
(16:34):
What are the differences andwhat types of behaviors lead
kids to like?
What would lead you to say, hey, I think this child needs a
little more care.
Sure.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
So, starting with hospitalization, um, it
definitely would be those, likeyou said, crisis in the home,
where it can.
It's usually more of anisolated incident, um, where
you're having whether it'ssuicidal ideation, whether it's
a plan, whether it'sself-harming, basically, or
(17:09):
thoughts of injuring or hurtingother people in the home.
It's usually those things wherein this moment, right now, I
cannot, I can no longer keepthis child safe.
So then you have to call.
Sometimes now with my oldestdaughter, she came to us and we
(17:32):
figured it out and I was able totake her into the hospital and
went through the evaluationprocess with her.
With my younger one, it wasmore of that crisis.
We had to call 911 and had tohave help come into the home.
So it really kind of of theprocess is very different
between those two.
Even like that, those are twoeven different, whole different
worlds.
(17:52):
So once you end up in that er,all bets are off, like you are
out of control, things justhappen, and then they usually,
if it's they, they'll do anevaluation on them If they
determine that they need to bestabilized.
Maybe they haven't been takingtheir medication and they need
to get back on it, adjustmedication, are not on
(18:13):
medication at all, but justreally need some intensive
therapies.
Then they will go ahead andhospitalize.
Usually that's the max I'veseen it is two weeks.
Yeah, so usually like a, it istwo weeks, yeah, so usually
that's the same week to twoweeks.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, I think the max we've seen is like 10 days,
that kind of two week, two weeksetting.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah, and usually by then you know the child has
stabilized, you've been able towork on some things between home
and the child Were there, werethere miscommunication things,
were there, behaviors betweenboth, you know, between parents
and child.
That needed to be addressed Wassomething that the parent was
doing, triggering something fromthe past, and that was the
(18:58):
reaction and behavior.
You know there's a lot of um,there's a lot of factors that go
into that, so you can, um,adjust and kind of get out of
that cycle and thehospitalization will break the
cycle and you're good to go andthat's all you need.
But then there are other timeswhere that is a repeated cycle
(19:22):
and it's happening way toofrequently, way too often, way
too often, and it's just thatthat hospitalization is no
longer working.
Um, our case was really uniquein that we had so, from the
first call, a police officeractually came into our home who
(19:44):
was clearly not trauma informed.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
It's the worst we have had it.
We had a police officer come inand say I will take off my belt
right now and give it to yourmom, and I'm like what?
Speaker 2 (19:58):
oh, we had the opposite.
Oh, we had the opposite.
This police officer filed areport against us to dcfs
because they assumed that nochild would want to end their
life or hurt themselves unlessthey were being abused in the
home.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Oh no.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
So while he witnessed absolutely nothing, he could
not grasp that a child, thatthere wasn't another factor.
So he reported us and we had togo through a full investigation
.
But what ended up happening inthat investigation, which is
wild to me, is that they endedup determining it was unfounded
(20:38):
against us as parents, but theyended up determining that the
child was a danger to our home.
Yeah, so they forced us toresidential treatment.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Which we it was very much on our radar.
We were in the process.
Actually, we had alreadyapplied, we were in the process
of finding a place.
We were in the process.
Actually, we had alreadyapplied.
We were in the process offinding a place.
We were already there, yeah,but it sped it up and so it was
very odd circumstances how thathappened, yeah, and then they
kind of threatened us that if wedid not follow through with it
(21:09):
then we would lose all of ourkids.
So, yeah, scary, very veryscary.
It really is.
So that was very oddcircumstances, but again it was
already on our radar.
We were not naive to the factthat we were heading that
direction.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah, yeah, we are our experience.
So we did one kind of crisisthing pretty early on after
adoption.
We are the same.
We kind of knew that this childhad a lot of diagnoses.
We didn't know all of them, butyou know, we knew that there
were a lot of diagnoses and thatthis was going to be not an
(21:54):
easy road for her just long term.
But we didn't see any kind ofthe behaviors on the front end
that we saw post-adoption.
Post-adoption adoption was verytriggering for her Interesting.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Yeah, one of her other siblings.
So we adopted a sibling groupof five.
One of her other siblings wasjust the opposite, had a really
hard time before adoption, andadoption settled everything for
(22:41):
her, that kind of set things inmotion, and so she went to the
hospital.
Probably the first time shewent to the hospital was
probably a week after adoption,and then we had, we had a period
of time where we kind ofstabilized her.
Everything was fine.
But then we got started on thehospital cycles pretty rapidly
(23:04):
and what we found I think forkids that have attachment
struggles specifically issometimes that hospital provides
a little bit of an attachmentreprieve.
Yes, so they have noaccountability, they have no
relationships they have.
(23:24):
They're not vulnerable, youknow, like they are when they're
in close relationship withpeople.
And so that became somethingthat she actually was actively
working towards was getting tothe hospital on a regular basis,
because she liked that it gaveher body a little reprieve from
(23:48):
those close relationships thather brain was saying, hey, this
isn't safe, this isn't safe, youknow people aren't safe.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
We noticed that too.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
And I think that's so common where they start this
cycle.
I always tell parents that cometo me that have you know that
are starting to see some ofthese bigger behaviors.
Hold off as long as you can onhospital stays and not to say
that you don't have to go thatroute, because sometimes you do
(24:20):
have to go that route.
It is needed, it is necessary.
But if you have a child thatstruggles with attachment and
has diagnoses around attachment,that hospital stay can actually
make things worse, not better.
I have seen it in kids thatdon't have the same level of
(24:42):
attachment struggles.
I have seen it do great thingsright and really give them a
chance to get their medicationin order and to stabilize them.
But I think it's a differentstory sometimes for kids that
have a higher level ofattachment struggle.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah, 100%.
I agree with that.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Well, when you have a child that's in out-of-home
placement, I think I felt somuch shame placement I think I
felt so much shame in thebeginning that my child couldn't
be at home and we were kind ofthe same way.
We got to a place where it wasvery unsafe for our other kids
(25:29):
and it was being bumped upagainst that.
You know, we might face somedifferent things if anything
happened in the home, because weknew there were struggles and
so, anyway, that's part of thereason we sought out longer term
care the way that we did.
(25:49):
But I think people have thisidea that placing them somewhere
else, either for a couple ofmonths and in our area I don't
know about you, anna, but in ourarea most residential
facilities will keep a childthree to six months at a time
because that's all insurancewill take care of, take care of.
(26:12):
But I think I thought if I placethem outside of the home, then
that I haven't done enough, Ihaven't been able to stick it
out, I haven't been able to lovethis child enough to help them
heal, right.
So I want you to talk aboutthat a little bit.
(26:34):
But then I think the other ideais that once they're placed
somewhere else, that we don'thave a role to play, and I think
that's very wrong too.
I think we can still remainvery, very active, very present
in in their journey and theirhealing and all of their stuff
as they go along.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Yeah, so as the shame , oh, my goodness, the shame.
Yes, it is so real and I think,well, mental health as a whole
has such a stigma to it, whichit shouldn't, but it does in our
society.
So we're already have thatissue and that that we're
(27:16):
battling.
But then there's also the selftoo.
As mothers, our job, like atthe core of who we are as a
mother, is to love and protectyour children, and nowhere in
any of the books do they say youmay not be the one to do that.
(27:38):
Yeah, right, like it's allabout.
They need to be with the motherand you need to nurture and
love and give of yourself andall of these things.
And then you realize, wait, I'mnot enough, I can't do this,
and that is a horrible feeling,it is absolutely horrible and I
(27:59):
really, really struggled withthat.
I was just so devastated withmyself, like there were layers
to the grief, when my daughterleft.
I was devastated with myselfthat I wasn't capable of being
the mother she needed me to be,which we'll circle back to that.
(28:19):
But then also, she's not in thehome room floor and the clothes
in the laundry, and there'sjust so much the pictures that
pop up on your phone.
(28:39):
There's so many things thatjust snap you back to reality,
like, oh my goodness, she's nothere.
The empty seat at the dinnertable, it was absolutely
horrific.
And then you have your otherchildren grieving her loss and
they're coming to you crying Imiss her.
I miss her when is she cominghome?
And you have to say I don'tknow, and it's going to be a
long time.
And so there's so many layersto the guilt.
(29:02):
You feel guilty that you'reputting this harm on your
children and that you can'tfunction and you're sad and you
weren't enough.
And so that was a huge processfor me.
And I will say this, and I amprobably going to say this about
10 more times while we'retalking moms need to be in
therapy.
If you are parenting kids fromhard places whether they're in
(29:26):
residential or not, it doesn'tmatter If you are parenting a
child from a hard place, youneed to be in therapy.
And this is a hill I will dieon, because, as moms, we do give
and we always say well, thattakes away resources from the
family.
It takes time.
I don't have time.
The reality is you have an hour.
You have an hour a week.
You can find an hour you can,you can figure out somewhere in
(29:49):
the budget to get that copay orwhatever.
And because it is so importantand it has allowed me to have
the capacity to be a good motherand to be the mother that my
other children need.
It is not taking away, it isadding to my family.
Yeah, that's just another sidenote.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Well, I do want to say, though, while you're
talking about that, though, itis very, very important that
your therapist is traumainformed, so that you are
getting feedback thatunderstands the complexity of
what your situation is, becausea therapist that doesn't
understand that is going to makethings worse.
Shame wise for you, very true,and how they're directing you to
(30:33):
handle things.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yes, that is very true, and I'm spoiled because
I've been with my therapist forthree years now and I love her
and she knows every aspect of mylife.
But she truly walked me throughthe grief.
She had been with me throughthe past several years,
obviously, and building up tothis, she told me that we needed
to do residential, long beforeI considered it and I was like
(30:58):
no, you don't understand.
You don't understand, I couldnever do that.
I'm not doing that to my child,I'm going to maintain a
connection.
And she really sat there andwas like no, and it was after my
daughter left and, processingthrough all this, I was actually
diagnosed with PTSD from whathad happened in the home and
(31:18):
that was the biggest light bulbfor me going Whoa, it was bad.
Yeah, it that was.
It was real, I wasn'texaggerating, I wasn't making
(31:42):
this up and it it was very real.
And so therapy is just soimportant because you have to be
able to process these thingsWell and to have an outside
perspective just to go no, thisis what that is.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
I had told my therapist I'm like I understand
secondary trauma because I knewall the lingo.
I knew all the things.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Sure Right.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
This is not secondary trauma.
This is primary trauma.
You are being abused.
This is a domestic violencesituation.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
And in our situation.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
It was and it wasn't her fault.
It's just.
Her brain works as if she's inactive combat 24-7, just because
of all the abuse sheexperienced.
All the way up Her brain wiredto say people are not safe,
right, and so totally defendingherself constantly against
(32:43):
threats that aren't really there, but on the receiving end of
things to have somebody say thisis not secondary trauma.
You are not just taking on hertrauma, you are actually like
this is primary trauma.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Yeah, and I think it's important.
We never want to say negativethings about our children
because we want to protect them,we want to protect their future
, and saying that we are abusedby our kids really does give a
different people view that,differently than what we
actually mean and what we'resaying.
However, the reality is, Ithink acknowledging that for
(33:20):
myself was, and realizing thiswas an abusive relationship.
We were mother, daughter andthis was such an abusive and
toxic relationship and removingus from the same space and
having the opportunity to laythat foundation and rebuild is
exactly what we needed.
(33:40):
Because I'm not saying thingsare great now, I'm not saying we
have it all figured out.
It's not.
It's horrible still, but itwould have and I don't say this
to be dramatic or negative inany way, but I truly believe
that if in the at that pointresidential hadn't happened, one
(34:04):
or all of us would probably bedead by now.
Yeah, and I think that that isthat's not to be funny or
dramatic.
It's really true.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
It's real life.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Yeah, yes, and I had to step away from it to
acknowledge that and realizethat, because I thought I could
fix it and I thought I could doit.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Yep, well, we're told that, you know, I think so much
.
I love all the trauma training.
I love, you know, theconnection aspect of things and
the ability for human contact tohelp our brains heal I think is
real right.
But I think a lot of times weminimize the impact of trauma.
(34:50):
We minimize how much it damagesthe brain and I don't think
minimizing that when we speakhelps anybody.
Because it is serious.
Like our kids are not justresilient, they're just going to
go about their day.
(35:10):
Like people need to understandjust how serious these impacts
of trauma are.
It is not our kids.
My child that struggles themost, is the most compassionate
the most, the most.
I mean, she is the sweetestperson, but trauma has changed
(35:36):
her brain, it just has.
It has, and there's no wayaround it and we are not enough
to fix it.
There was a couple of years agothere was something that had a
devastating incident with achild that was adopted or
whatever, and somebody there wasan influencer kind of in the
(36:02):
foster care and adoption spacethat got up and made the
statement that no child is toomuch, they're not too much, and
every child needs to know thatthey're not too much.
They're not too much and everychild needs to know that they're
not too much.
And I agree with that whenyou're talking about a child and
(36:23):
a person and who they are attheir core.
But the reality is is sometimesthe trauma is too much, and
when we say things, blanketstatements like that, to make
people feel good, it doesn'thelp anybody, because then what
I felt was a bunch of shame,that I was not enough, that I
(36:49):
was placing that on my child,that I should have been enough,
that on my child, that I shouldhave been enough.
And the fact is is I can't be.
I can't be enough all the time.
I have limits to my body andwhat I can handle and the other
people in my household havelimits to what they can handle.
And in their bodies and youknow what she has limits as to
(37:12):
what.
We're trying to force her inthese boxes without any support,
right Like she has limits as towhat.
We're trying to force her inthese boxes without any support,
right Like she has limits as towhat she can handle and she
needed extra support and extracare that we just weren't able
to give her.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
And I think that's interesting.
Oh sorry.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
I was just going to say.
I would love to know, like youknow, just kind of your thoughts
on that and how, as moms, wecan kind of get over that hump
of not being enough.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Yeah, I mean I don't know that we ever fully get over
it.
Yeah, I mean, there's thatself-doubt and there's that
guilt all the time.
Yeah, do I question myself Isthis the right facility?
Did I put her in the rightplace?
Are we doing too much?
(38:38):
But there was something you saidactually made me think of a
conversation I had with someoneelse who's in a similar boat and
because mom meaning bio mom anddad hurt them so much that just
the relationship of they don'tfeel safe in.
Just because I am mom and myhusband is dad, just because of
those titles alone, they we'reforcing them into this
relationship that is soterrifying to them.
And that was such a profoundmoment when we had this
conversation because my husbandand I looked at each other like,
oh my goodness, we're sittinghere in these family sessions
(39:01):
going, but we love you, we wantyou home, get better, do the
things, come home.
And she's probably going.
That's really scary.
I don't want to, and for us,home is safe.
Mom and dad is safe.
Why wouldn't you want to behere versus a facility where
(39:24):
you're watching fights happenand getting involved in the
things?
Why?
You know the amount of incidentreports I get.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
You are not alone.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
You are not alone.
Oh my goodness, it's been awful, it's been a really bad week
with that, but you want to justscream at them Like we're safe.
Have we not proved that to you?
Like now she's been in our homelonger than she ever was in her
biological family's home, andso you, as a mom, you're like
(39:58):
come on, what is wrong here?
Am I?
How am I not enough?
How am I not giving enough?
And the reality is I never can,because of that trauma, if
anything.
Being mom and constantly beingin her face trying to prove
(40:18):
myself is actually making itworse.
And when that clicked this wasjust this week.
So it's not like I have a tonof like, oh wow, then everything
changed.
But I can see how nowapproaching things differently
may make a huge difference andI'm hopeful.
I don't know, but I think thatgoes back to we have that guilt
(40:43):
and we think that we're notenough.
Maybe we just can't be everbecause of who we are.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's so good and one of the
things that I have seen with mydaughter is I she actually we
have built a better relationshipwith her not being in our home
Interesting we have, because ithas allowed me to pour into her
(41:12):
without me being that threat ofbeing that mom, right, yeah, so
she could build thatrelationship with me and
actually I mean I am the onethat she will call.
I mean I would say herattachment to me has grown, it
has solidified.
I'm the one that she calls.
(41:35):
If she's melting down, ifsomething's going on at the
facility and she's upset and sheneeds to be regulated, she will
call me.
And so it's like that bond hasgrown while she's been away.
But I've had to be veryintentional about that right
Making sure.
I think it takes a lot moreintentionality from me to grow
(41:58):
that relationship while she'snot physically with me every day
.
But I mean I think it'sactually been really good for us
to have a little space so thatI can pour into her and build
that relationship from adistance where it's a little bit
safer for her in her mind, andso I know that you stay
(42:22):
connected.
I mean you're talking abouttherapy sessions with her and
all that kind of stuff.
So what are some ways?
If somebody has a child in anout-of-home placement, what are
some ways that they can keepbeing mom, what are some ways
that they can stay connected andkind of build that attachment
while a child's not at home?
Speaker 2 (42:41):
So I think when we're talking about attachment issues
, I would have told you a yearago that her and I had a very
strong attachment and we werevery, very close.
I think now, looking back, itwas not a real attachment, it
was a survival attachment.
I viewed it as very real.
For her, it was transactional.
(43:03):
Having that type ofrelationship with me and acting
like she was very close with memade it safe for her and gave
her that safety.
So when that all came crashingdown, I was devastated.
I'm like it's all been fake.
She wasn't my, but the realityis I had to refocus.
(43:26):
No, it was her way of survivingin her mind.
She had to act like the try andbe the favorite and be the good
child and be, because that washow she was going to remain safe
around me.
And then she just couldn't keepup the facade anymore.
So in a way, we're building fromalmost nothing and that has
(43:52):
been very hard and I thinkinitially and I don't know if
you experienced this too for usshe's been gone eight months now
, so we're still I don't know,that sounds like such a long
time yet we're still so much inthe beginning stages of that
repair work and it's been really, really hard.
(44:14):
It has not been pretty, it hasbeen very, very ugly, um, and we
don't have I I can't say thatwe it's distance has been good
for us.
I mean, we're not down eachother's throats, I guess you
know like we're not.
You know there is that safety,but I think that that has been
(44:36):
really hard.
I mean, there are, I would say,more phone calls than not where
I'm getting called and cussedout, yeah, but then there's also
those phone calls wheresomething happened and she needs
to talk to mom right now.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
So it's.
It's interesting.
I'm like wait, you just gotdone cussing me out.
Why now you need me?
Okay, um, but I think that isall a part of that repair work
and that building thatfoundation is okay.
Just because you did that to me, I'm still available when you
need me for the hard things, yes, yes.
(45:13):
Yes, and it's hard and I havehad to set boundaries.
I have, and I have had timeswhere I'm like this was too much
, I need to take a few days, andwe've set those boundaries with
the facility ahead of time.
I'm not just ignoring her.
Hey, you went too far this time.
Mom's got a lot of other stuffgoing on too.
(45:34):
I just I need a break.
We're going to call a timeoutand for 48 hours we're just
going to block no phone callsand then in 48 hours, when
you've had time to kind ofregulate, calm down, then we can
talk again.
So I think setting thoseboundaries of I'm still here for
you you don't get to treat melike that though and that's been
(45:55):
really, really important.
Also, what has been reallyimportant, too, is setting the
boundary.
I don't know why, but she lovesto call during dinner.
That's just the time that isher favorite to call, and so we
kind of had to set that boundaryas well.
Like, hey, we are going tofocus, cause I was jumping up
every time to answer that phonecall, like, and then I'm
(46:17):
removing myself from the table,or if it's a rough phone call,
the kids are being exposed to it, and that's not fair to the
ones who are still here.
They need our attention, theyneed that dinner time as a
family and everything.
So we had to set that boundaryof if you call between these
hours we're not going to answer,we just aren't.
You can call us later and wewill, but we're not going to
(46:40):
answer during these hours.
Does she still call multipletimes a week during those hours?
Absolutely, but it alleviatedthat.
Well, why are you ignoring mycalls Now?
She knows She'll still try, butshe knows that we're not
ignoring the calls.
She knows that after well, shehas a pretty strict time too
that she can't call after.
(47:01):
But you know, after certainhours if the sorry we're not
answering, if they really needto get a hold of us, it'll be,
it'll come from a different lineand I'll know.
You know that I that I need toanswer.
So just really being upfrontand setting those boundaries has
really alleviated a lot of theanxiety around her end of
(47:24):
maintaining that connection andI didn't really realize that at
first, how much that, how muchanxiety she has because I mean,
get it, she's 13, she's gettingdropped off.
I was there for an hour to signsome paperwork and then I left
yeah and so I'm that's.
That's traumatic for a 13 yearold yeah, very traumatic,
(47:46):
especially for any 13 year old,let alone having the history
that she had.
So having those clearexpectations and those
boundaries, while it's helpingus and protecting our sanity and
our time with the family athome, it's also easing her
anxiety, too.
Around it.
She knows when she can call,when we will answer, when we're
(48:09):
going to be available, and Ithink that's really important to
set those very clear boundaries.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
I've seen that too.
I have some weekends where I dotraining for the whole weekend
and I let her know ahead of timehey, I'm training this weekend,
so I'm not going to beavailable, and it keeps her mind
from going to a place Now shestill may call, right, but it
(48:36):
keeps her mind from going to aplace of they don't want to
answer.
Like it sets that boundary.
That it's not about that, it'sthat I'm because I think in our
case my daughter quickly goes tothey don't want to answer,
they're rejecting me and soletting her know up front this
is not what.
That is right.
(48:57):
Like I just have times whereI'm not available.
It doesn't mean that you're notimportant, that I'm not going
to answer your call, that I'mnot going to meet your needs,
but just know that you knowduring this time I can't be
available.
I agree that that has probablyeased some of her anxiety.
(49:17):
On our side, I love thoseboundaries that you're setting
within the structure of yourrelationship, that you're saying
, hey, these are my boundaries,I'm not going to be treated in a
way that is unsafe for me.
And I think it's important forparents to know that you don't
have to accept dangerousbehavior.
(49:42):
You can set boundaries thatmake it safe for you as well.
I think I didn't know thatearly on.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
No, I didn't either.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
I would literally just sit there and take the
abuse like physical abuse andjust be like this is what I'm
supposed to do, this is what itlooks like, to be here, no
matter what, yeah, and I thinkthat is not always a good thing
and I think you know that thatis not always a good thing.
(50:12):
Well, I think I know that someresidential facilities have
different policies, havedifferent, you know, and we have
to adhere to whatever theirstuff is.
I know, in our case, we havebeen very grateful to be able to
, like I can bring in food, Ican even.
We're at a point in our journeywe are a little further along
(50:36):
on our journey than you are andI think in the beginning that it
was a lot harder, that distancewas a lot harder, but we are
like seven years in to doing thehospitals and residentials.
I mean we're on likehospitalization, I don't know
number 40, 50.
(50:57):
I stopped counting at somepoint.
And so you know we have beendoing this for a very long time
and I think in the beginning itwas more like what you're
explaining.
I think now we're in a patternwhere their relationship is
actually growing and gettingbetter, but we also have some
(51:22):
flexibility where she is now,because we are further along in
the process and we have a goodrelationship.
The facility that she's in nowis like it's like her fourth
time there and so they know us,we know the situation and, like
I took her to the movies, shewanted to go see the new Mufasa
(51:47):
movie.
We went and, you know, hung outat the movies and I think some
of those things have been verybeneficial as well, because we
do get to have, even in themidst of her being placed
somewhere else, we do get tohave some normal, more normal
mother-daughter moments.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
Yeah, very much looking forward to that.
It's hard.
So the facility that we're atright now, it has a phase system
.
Okay, so you have to.
It's most restricted in phaseone.
Then you kind of graduate andthe restrictions become less.
We're still in phase one, yeah,after eight months.
(52:24):
So she's not able to.
I mean, she has to prove thatshe can be safe to leave the
facility.
Sure, and we're not there yet.
So those are times that I and Ikind of try and dangle the
carrot, like we can do thesethings if you just do the work
and we're just not there yet.
So I'm very excited.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
A lot of times, like those carrots can actually be,
like our kids can sabotagethemselves because they have in
their mind that they're not evergoing to get there, you know,
and so it just creates a veryodd dynamic, but I'll give you
hope those stages do.
They do come to where you knowyou're able to have more
(53:11):
flexibility, or whatever, towhere you know you're able to
have more flexibility, orwhatever.
Well, one other thing that Iwant to ask is how has having a
child placed outside of the homeimpacted the other kids in the
home?
Um, and your family, yourhusband, your family unit?
The way the family works right,like I it, it changes when a
(53:33):
child is, is not there full time.
So, um, how have you seen thatimpact the other kids in your
home?
Speaker 2 (53:41):
It impact them tremendously.
So we have a very large age gap, um, between our two sets of
siblings.
There is a seven year age gapgap there and the little ones
adored their older sisters likethey adore, adored, as if they
don't still.
They absolutely still adorethem, um, so that has been
(54:05):
really difficult and I thinkthey were young enough when my
oldest was gone and she was onlygone for three months, so they
it didn't impact them in thesame way.
Now, um, my youngest daughterand the one who's in residential
now shared a room.
So they, that was very, veryhard, many tears.
(54:29):
I can't sleep without her here.
Where is she?
When is she coming back?
I mean, they were so bonded andreally had just such a sweet
relationship, even though therewas this huge age gap.
It was just the sweetestrelationship between the two of
them.
So that was very, verydevastating and over time it's
(54:51):
she's just kind of accepted itand she doesn't really ask about
her a whole lot, doesn't, whichis also odd.
I don't know.
I don't know.
She's only six.
You know, she's processingthings in her own way.
Now, my little guy, he was, ohno, it all happened on his
(55:13):
fourth birthday, um, the wholething started on his birthday.
Um, so he was just four whenshe left and that was very, very
difficult for him.
He still, I mean, middle of thenight we'll get up and cry.
I just want her home.
When is she coming home?
Very, very hard on him.
(55:36):
His preschool teacher said heprays for her every day during
his snack time prayer.
So that's hard to hear.
And then obviously, my oldest,that's her biological sister and
she's gone and there's so manylayers to it.
One she went throughresidential too and was like I
(55:59):
did it, I got out and moved on.
What's your problem, right?
So there's that aspect of twowildly different reasons for
going, wildly differentpersonalities to begin with,
like those two could not beanywhere different even though
they're sisters.
So I think there's so manyemotions in our home.
(56:21):
My husband is.
He deals with it in verydifferent ways.
He's absolutely devastated byit.
I think his comes out in alittle bit more in anger.
You know why?
Why weren't we enough and whycan't you come?
Why can't you just do what you?
You haven't laid out?
You have the roadmap, do it andcome home.
(56:43):
Um, so we all have dealt with itin different ways, where for me
it's been more that emotional,the like we talk about the guilt
, the struggles of why wasn't Ienough, and then just not having
all of my children here hasbeen very hard.
I'm used to doing things forfour kids and now I have three.
(57:04):
You know I don't have toconsider and it feels wrong to
not consider the one, but Idon't have to, so that has been
really, really challenging.
One thing that has been hugefor us well, really, two things
one and they go together, butone is really surrounding
ourselves with people whounderstand trauma and the
(57:27):
effects of trauma, not only forthe sake of understanding what
happened with our daughter, butalso understanding that this is
very traumatic for our kids too,on top of their other trauma.
So this we got another layerand you know, you think of there
should be no more trauma in theadoptive home.
(57:49):
Well, sorry, we just there's awhole lot right now.
So it's it's been really hardand we really have to surround
ourselves and, in the sameaspect, we have to distance
ourselves from people who don'tunderstand it or who are very
judgmental or are painting analternate narrative of what's
(58:10):
happening.
And we just had to distanceourselves because I'm sorry,
it's one of the times me right,but truly, your words are so
hurtful and we're already so rawthat we can't.
We just can't, and that's justbeen a boundary that we've had
just that too.
Speaker 1 (58:30):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's great to give parents
permission, you know, really inin that space to do both things
to bring some people close andto let them see, you know the
the raw of what's going on.
You know, making sure that thatthat group is very safe, but
(58:54):
also to distance yourself fromsome other influences that may
not be speaking life into yourfamily.
Okay, so I have a question thatI didn't tell you about
beforehand, but just as we'retalking, I would love to know,
like, if you could change onething about the mental health
system I have to choose just one.
(59:20):
Wait a minute.
Speaker 2 (59:23):
We could do a whole series on that.
Amen, amen.
Speaker 1 (59:28):
But if you could change one thing like, what
would be the biggest thing thatyou would change?
Speaker 2 (59:32):
But if you could change one thing like what would
be the biggest thing that youwould change?
I think honestly, truly, thatall therapists, anyone who comes
into contact, nurses, doctors,even social workers, police
(59:56):
officers, any paramedics,anybody who is going to come in
contact with someone who hasmental health struggles,
whatever they are, they have tobe trauma informed, they have to
understand the effects oftrauma, because you would think
that that's common sense andthat they all are and they all
would understand it, but it'sactually really rare for
somebody to understand it, andthat is such a disservice to not
(01:00:18):
only the patients but thefamilies and their caregivers
too.
Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree, and I was very
surprised about that.
Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
I was too, I was too.
Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
There is no trauma awareness in those circles.
I was too.
I was too like in crisisstabilization.
Like how do things go together.
How is this helpful?
How is this helpful?
Right, and I know that that's avery little piece of the puzzle
, but I think it goes to hey,we're not really thinking
through these things, like,we're just kind of going through
(01:01:08):
the motions, we're not reallybeing trauma informed, we're not
thinking through about what'sbest for these kids and how to
set them up for success, how tohelp them heal, but we're just
kind of going through themotions and all of it.
Yeah Well, anna, as we wrap up,what do you, what would you say
, has, like, helped you getthrough all of this turmoil and
(01:01:33):
chaos?
Right, because this is hard,this is hard stuff, this is real
hard stuff.
So, what do you lean on?
What do you look to?
Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
I mean, honestly, my faith in God.
That is the only thing that hasgotten us through this.
I truly don't know how anybodycould face the things that we've
had to face without him thereand I think, having to fully
trust that he has a plan in allof this, when it makes zero
(01:02:08):
sense from my perspective, likeum hello, this makes zero sense.
And he does have a plan, though, and I don't understand it and
I don't see it at all.
I can't even remotelycomprehend it.
But there is a plan and I thinkone of the biggest things too
that I've lately reallystruggled with and I was
(01:02:29):
actually just telling a friendthis last night lately really
struggled with, and I wasactually just telling a friend
this last night I can say that Itrust him and and I truly do, I
trust him.
I trust that he is carrying.
I mean, he is carrying usthrough this.
There's no way.
It's not just I trust that hewill, he is, but I think
sometimes I'm losing that hopethat he will heal her and that
(01:02:54):
we will see the other side ofthis, and that is something I am
really struggling with andreally trying to grasp onto.
Is that hope, the hope that andsome people may think that
they're the same, but I cantrust that he's good, while also
being like I'm losing hope thatyou're going to actually fix
(01:03:14):
this and I'm going to see it inmy lifetime.
And so that has been.
I mean, I'm not going to saythat, oh, my walk of faith has
been great and wonderful andeverything's perfect.
But without that and withoutGod carrying our family through
this, I truly don't know wherewe would be.
That has been everything.
Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
Yeah, yeah, I agree, and I do think sometimes that
wrestling is good right.
Like sometimes those moments,because those places in our
heart of unbelief are there, youknow, I feel like I live in the
constant posture of I believe,Lord, help my unbelief, because
because I do, I do trust, I dobelieve.
(01:03:57):
But there are still those areasthat that kind of pinprick, you
know, do you really in this,like you know, right, this too,
Um.
So I love that you put that outthere.
Well, Anna, I reallyappreciated this conversation
today and I think it's going tobe so helpful for so many
(01:04:17):
parents to not feel alone,because I think a lot of times
when we're facing more escalatedstuff, more elevated behaviors,
I think we can even beyondregular foster care and adoption
aloneness.
Like we, it goes a step furtherthat sometimes we feel
segregated even within theadoption and foster care
(01:04:39):
community, 100%, 100%.
So I appreciate you being heretoday.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, Thank you for havingme.
If you know somebody that isfacing similar challenges, would
you send them this episode?
I really desire for foster andadoptive parents to know that
(01:05:01):
they are not alone, that thereare lots of people that are
facing similar challenges.
Let me pray for us as we wrapup today.
Lord God, thank you so much thatwe can come together and talk
about these hard and difficultthings.
Lord, thank you that we canspeak with grace and receive
(01:05:24):
things with grace.
Help us walk in discernment.
Lord, these challenges in ourhome are hard.
Help us to know that we werenever meant to be enough.
We were meant to be dependenton you.
Lord, give parents grace today.
Give them grace today.
Help them cast away all theguilt, all the shame, and just
(01:05:50):
walk in grace.
Lord, you are good.
Comfort us in these challengingmoments.
Be our strength.
Give us discernment how to walkthese paths in obedience to you
and in honor and love to ourkids.
Lord, we are so thankful thatwe don't have to walk this path
alone.
We love you.
(01:06:11):
We trust you In Jesus' name,amen.
Hey friend, welcome back to the Foster Parent Well
podcast.
We're doing something specialthis summer because, let's be
real, summer is loud andschedules are wild.
So, in the spirit of keepingthings simple and soul-filling,
we're hitting rewind All summerlong.
I'll be sharing some of myfavorite episodes from the past,
conversations that encouragedme, challenged me and reminded
(00:22):
me that God is still workingeven when life feels messy.
If you're new here, it's theperfect time to jump in, and if
you've been around for a while,think of this like a little
refresher, like your spiritualiced coffee on a hot summer day.
So let's soak in some truth,lean into God's grace and keep
showing up for the hard and holywork that we've been called to.
(00:43):
Let's jump into this Rewindepisode.
Welcome to the Foster ParentWell podcast, where we have real
candid, faith-filledconversations about all things
foster care, adoption and trauma.
(01:04):
I'm your host, nicole T Barlow.
I'm a certified parent trainer,a certified health coach and an
adoptive parent myself.
This is a space where you canfind support so that you can
care for your kids with asteadfast faith, endurance and
joy.
I want you to foster parentwell, so let's jump in.
Welcome to the Foster ParentWell podcast.
(01:41):
My name is Nicole T Barlow andI am your host.
Well, today, you guys, we have alittle bit of a longer podcast
for you, and I got to be honest,I'm a little nervous about this
one.
I open up in this podcasttelling a part of our foster
(02:01):
care and adoption story that wehave not really told publicly
yet.
I mean, our community, thepeople that are in our lives in
real life, know this part of ourstory, but I have not shared
this on the podcast before.
But I do think some of theseharder conversations, digging
into some of these harder topics, are so important.
(02:25):
But I would ask you this Iwould ask that you give us grace
.
We are trying to navigate thesereally difficult and hard
conversations with grace, butthere may be times where we say
something or where you knowsomething comes out in a way
(02:46):
that is received differentlythan we mean it, and so I want
to preface this podcast by justsaying you know, I think, as
adoptive parents, we love ourkids.
We would lay down our lives forour kids.
We would lay down our lives forour kids and we want to honor
(03:10):
our kids and their stories.
But also, if we are not sayingthe hard things, if we're not
talking about the realchallenges of foster care, of
adoption, of trauma and theeffects of trauma, then we're
doing a disservice to everybody.
We're alienating foster parents, adoptive parents that are
(03:35):
going through some of thesebigger challenges because, you
guys, this is stuff that nobodyis really talking about.
So my guest today is AnnaBernacki.
She's a wife and a mom to fourchildren who were adopted
through foster care, and as anadoptee herself.
Anna's life has been shaped bythe profound themes of identity,
(03:58):
belonging and unconditionallove.
She brings a deeply personalperspective to her work as an
educator for foster and adoptivefamilies, especially those
navigating the complexities ofspecial needs parenting.
As a mother of two children whohave required placement in
residential treatment facilities, anna knows the heartbreak and
(04:20):
perseverance it takes to lovefrom a distance.
She has walked the difficultpath of advocating for her
children's safety and healing,while striving to maintain
connection and fosterrestoration within her family.
In the midst of these challenges, anna has leaned on her faith,
finding strength in God'spromises and hope in His ability
(04:42):
to bring beauty from brokenness.
And hope in his ability tobring beauty from brokenness and
that's what we're going to betalking to Anna about today is
when you have kids that need tolive outside of the home, that
need to be placed outside of thehome, whether for a short
season or for a longer season.
How do we navigate thosechallenges?
So let's jump right in.
(05:02):
Well, welcome, anna to the show.
I'm so excited to have you heretoday, and I've really been
looking forward to thisconversation because I think
that what we're going to discusstoday can really be impactful
for so many people.
So, as we get started, tell mea little bit about your story
(05:23):
and how you got into foster carein the adoption world.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
So I actually am adopted myself, so adoption was
more normal than anything elseto me.
My siblings are adopted as well.
None of us are biologicallyrelated, so having a family that
was not biologically related toeach other was my normal.
Something I always searched for, always wanted, was that
(05:50):
biological connection.
It defines a lot of mychildhood.
Honestly, I really just wouldlay in bed and dream about it.
I wanted that so badly and so,after getting married and
thinking about family, I wantedbiological children more than
anything else in the world.
And then God said nope, that'snot my plan for your life.
(06:13):
So we ended up kind of exploringdifferent adoption avenues and
really landed back with thereare children who need homes.
Right now we have extrabedrooms in our home.
Let's fill them, and we reallywanted to do sibling groups.
So that's what we did.
(06:33):
We started fostering and weended up adopting our first two
placements after 18 months.
So it was super fast case.
We did not expect that at all.
We thought we'd foster and havekind of a revolving door for a
while, but that did not happenat all.
And then we got two youngerchildren and we have now.
(06:57):
That was a much longer case,but we have now adopted them as
well.
So we have four adoptedchildren through the foster care
system.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Oh, wow, that's awesome.
Well, what was your viewgrowing up being adopted?
What was your view of adoption?
I know you said you kind ofalways dreamed of your
biological that side of yourfamily, but did you have a good
experience being adopted?
Did you have a negativeexperience?
(07:24):
I know everybody's experiencesvary so much.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, I think I never knew any other adoptees when I
was younger.
So you know, as a child youbelieve the narrative that
you're given.
Right, it's beautiful.
God created you to be in ourfamily.
You were born for us.
(08:02):
You know kind of that narrativeand it was 18.
Wow, and even then it wasreally hard to find.
So I mean now with the internetit's a lot easier.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
That was pretty common back then that things
were done that way, right it?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
was.
Yeah, it was very common.
But I think it added an elementthat a lot of people today may
not understand, becauseadoptions are typically more
open, or at least you know whothe parents are.
There's more information givennow.
Um, so that was definitely astruggle.
(08:36):
Growing up, there was thatinternal struggle of like I
should feel fine here.
I was told I had no traumabecause I was straight Well, I
wasn't straight from thehospital.
I was taken straight from thehospital and then I was in
foster care for a very shorttime before placed in my
adoptive family.
So I don't know, I just neverthought of myself as having
(08:57):
trauma.
I've lived this beautiful lifeand I really did.
I was very privileged.
I had a wonderful childhoodgrowing up and then as an adult
and going through the adoptionprocess with my own kids and
watching them grieve becausethey knew their parents and
watching them grieve, I was like, oh, this is what I missed out
(09:20):
on.
This is those same feelings Ihad.
I just didn't have a parent toconnect that to.
So it was kind of this mysteryfeeling of why am I grieving
people I don't even know?
I don't even know their name,and so then I was able to kind
of connect the dots and realize.
And then I started grieving allover.
I didn't really grieve myadoption and process all of that
(09:41):
until I was an adult andwalking my own kids through it.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Wow, that's amazing how watching their experience
kind of gives context to whatyou were feeling and I'm sure
you were able to be much moreempathetic to them in their
grief, since you I mean you wereprocessing in real time your
own stuff Exactly.
Yeah, well, how has traumaimpacted your kids and your
family now, like as an adult,and I mean you've you talked
(10:14):
about how that has kind ofstirred things up in you, but
what have you seen as theimpacts of of trauma on your
family?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I mean the impacts of trauma on our family are
tremendous.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
I know like what area doesn't it touch right, right,
right.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, it is tremendous and I think you know
there's a broad spectrum.
Each one of our children hastheir own struggles and I don't
think I mean we have manydiagnoses between all the kids.
It's not.
We certainly do not have atypical family.
I don't even know what thatlooks like, I have no context
(10:51):
for what that is but each onehas really struggled in their
own way.
So our two oldest kids wereadopted at well.
They came to us at six and 10.
We're adopted at well.
They came to us at six and 10and then we're adopted at eight
and 11.
I think just the way theirbirthdays fall, so it was eight
(11:12):
and 11.
Um, and because they were olderand experienced so much more
trauma in the home, like theirstory is still unfolding, we
still find new things out, andit was truly a horrific.
I mean you look at asix-year-old.
I have another six-year-old nowand I look at her and I'm like
(11:34):
the stuff that that child wentthrough before coming to our
home is so unreal andunbelievable.
It's a world that so manypeople cannot even comprehend,
and so I think kind of seeingtheir struggles in a different
(11:55):
way Now.
Our younger two had a lot ofprenatal trauma, so that comes
out in a different way.
Yes, we got them straight fromthe hospital.
That does not spare them fromtrauma.
It does not.
So it's been very, verydifferent.
Our older kids have definitelystruggled with more mental
(12:16):
illness because of how thetrauma has affected their brain.
It's not it's not the samebrain as a healthy, typical
child.
So that has been really hard.
Our oldest daughter, when shewas, I want to say I think she
(12:36):
was 14.
She had some bullying at schoolthat we did not know about.
She's very quiet and doesn'treally share a lot.
So when we finally found outwhat was happening, she was
already really really strugglingwith wanting to still be alive
and be with us.
She had no self-worth, did notthink that she had any reason to
(13:00):
still be here.
So we ended up in the hospitalpretty rapidly two times in a
row and it was recommended to usthat she go to a residential
treatment facility.
So she went to a 90 day programin and out Absolutely
incredible.
She's thriving ever sincereally found herself worth, not
(13:24):
to say she doesn't have hermoments.
She doesn't ever struggle, shecertainly does, but she is doing
so incredible.
She did the work.
It's been.
It's been amazing.
So that was just kind of ourhappily ever after story with um
that.
And then we had our seconddaughter, who we knew when she
(13:45):
walked in that door at six yearsold.
That child was something else,like she was.
We were not naive to what wewere getting ourselves into and
many people said you're reallygoing to adopt her?
Yeah, we are, because we wereher fifth home in six months.
Wow, and it just I mean I'lllet you put the puzzle pieces
(14:10):
together on that one as to why.
So it was very challenging, butat the time we didn't have other
children in the home.
We didn't have.
We had the capacity to handleit and in a six year old you
it's much more manageablebecause they're little and you
can handle it.
So after she was adopted, thereseemed to be this huge lull in
(14:34):
all of the behaviors it reallygave her.
It seemed to give her thesecurity she needed.
She knew she wasn't goinganywhere, she was with us
forever.
This was her home.
It really gave her thatsecurity for a while Honestly a
couple of years and theneverything exploded again.
I think she was 12.
Everything exploded again andit's been a nonstop cycle since
(14:59):
then.
It's been very, very difficult.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Anna, do you think that?
And I ask this question becausethis is part of what we have
seen both in our own home and inother people that are facing
similar journeys?
We also have a child that livesin residential and has gone
(15:22):
through the hospital cycles, andone of the things that I
noticed is there is a hugeuptake at puberty.
Yes, when puberty hits, it'slike the trauma accelerates
times 30.
Yes, and it just becomes reallyhard for our kids and it just
(15:44):
becomes really hard for our kids.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
100% yes, I would love to do research on that.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
I'm sure they're out there somewhere, but it
definitely is.
It has to be a thing it is.
Well, I mean, I'm currentlywatching some other families
that have had kids that havebeen adopted and in their homes
for years, and now that they'reentering puberty it's a whole
different shift.
(16:12):
So we may have some listenersthat don't understand the world
of hospitalizations andresidential and all of that kind
of stuff.
So will you explain twodifferent things to me the
difference between, like acrisis, hospitalization,
stabilization kind of thing andresidential.
What does that mean?
(16:34):
What are the differences andwhat types of behaviors lead
kids to like?
What would lead you to say, hey, I think this child needs a
little more care.
Sure.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
So, starting with hospitalization, um, it
definitely would be those, likeyou said, crisis in the home,
where it can.
It's usually more of anisolated incident, um, where
you're having whether it'ssuicidal ideation, whether it's
a plan, whether it'sself-harming, basically, or
(17:09):
thoughts of injuring or hurtingother people in the home.
It's usually those things wherein this moment, right now, I
cannot, I can no longer keepthis child safe.
So then you have to call.
Sometimes now with my oldestdaughter, she came to us and we
(17:32):
figured it out and I was able totake her into the hospital and
went through the evaluationprocess with her.
With my younger one, it wasmore of that crisis.
We had to call 911 and had tohave help come into the home.
So it really kind of of theprocess is very different
between those two.
Even like that, those are twoeven different, whole different
worlds.
(17:52):
So once you end up in that er,all bets are off, like you are
out of control, things justhappen, and then they usually,
if it's they, they'll do anevaluation on them If they
determine that they need to bestabilized.
Maybe they haven't been takingtheir medication and they need
to get back on it, adjustmedication, are not on
(18:13):
medication at all, but justreally need some intensive
therapies.
Then they will go ahead andhospitalize.
Usually that's the max I'veseen it is two weeks.
Yeah, so usually like a, it istwo weeks, yeah, so usually
that's the same week to twoweeks.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, I think the max we've seen is like 10 days,
that kind of two week, two weeksetting.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah, and usually by then you know the child has
stabilized, you've been able towork on some things between home
and the child Were there, werethere miscommunication things,
were there, behaviors betweenboth, you know, between parents
and child.
That needed to be addressed Wassomething that the parent was
doing, triggering something fromthe past, and that was the
(18:58):
reaction and behavior.
You know there's a lot of um,there's a lot of factors that go
into that, so you can, um,adjust and kind of get out of
that cycle and thehospitalization will break the
cycle and you're good to go andthat's all you need.
But then there are other timeswhere that is a repeated cycle
(19:22):
and it's happening way toofrequently, way too often, way
too often, and it's just thatthat hospitalization is no
longer working.
Um, our case was really uniquein that we had so, from the
first call, a police officeractually came into our home who
(19:44):
was clearly not trauma informed.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
It's the worst we have had it.
We had a police officer come inand say I will take off my belt
right now and give it to yourmom, and I'm like what?
Speaker 2 (19:58):
oh, we had the opposite.
Oh, we had the opposite.
This police officer filed areport against us to dcfs
because they assumed that nochild would want to end their
life or hurt themselves unlessthey were being abused in the
home.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Oh no.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
So while he witnessed absolutely nothing, he could
not grasp that a child, thatthere wasn't another factor.
So he reported us and we had togo through a full investigation
.
But what ended up happening inthat investigation, which is
wild to me, is that they endedup determining it was unfounded
(20:38):
against us as parents, but theyended up determining that the
child was a danger to our home.
Yeah, so they forced us toresidential treatment.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Which we it was very much on our radar.
We were in the process.
Actually, we had alreadyapplied, we were in the process
of finding a place.
We were in the process.
Actually, we had alreadyapplied.
We were in the process offinding a place.
We were already there, yeah,but it sped it up and so it was
very odd circumstances how thathappened, yeah, and then they
kind of threatened us that if wedid not follow through with it
(21:09):
then we would lose all of ourkids.
So, yeah, scary, very veryscary.
It really is.
So that was very oddcircumstances, but again it was
already on our radar.
We were not naive to the factthat we were heading that
direction.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah, yeah, we are our experience.
So we did one kind of crisisthing pretty early on after
adoption.
We are the same.
We kind of knew that this childhad a lot of diagnoses.
We didn't know all of them, butyou know, we knew that there
were a lot of diagnoses and thatthis was going to be not an
(21:54):
easy road for her just long term.
But we didn't see any kind ofthe behaviors on the front end
that we saw post-adoption.
Post-adoption adoption was verytriggering for her Interesting.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Yeah, one of her other siblings.
So we adopted a sibling groupof five.
One of her other siblings wasjust the opposite, had a really
hard time before adoption, andadoption settled everything for
(22:41):
her, that kind of set things inmotion, and so she went to the
hospital.
Probably the first time shewent to the hospital was
probably a week after adoption,and then we had, we had a period
of time where we kind ofstabilized her.
Everything was fine.
But then we got started on thehospital cycles pretty rapidly
(23:04):
and what we found I think forkids that have attachment
struggles specifically issometimes that hospital provides
a little bit of an attachmentreprieve.
Yes, so they have noaccountability, they have no
relationships they have.
(23:24):
They're not vulnerable, youknow, like they are when they're
in close relationship withpeople.
And so that became somethingthat she actually was actively
working towards was getting tothe hospital on a regular basis,
because she liked that it gaveher body a little reprieve from
(23:48):
those close relationships thather brain was saying, hey, this
isn't safe, this isn't safe, youknow people aren't safe.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
We noticed that too.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
And I think that's so common where they start this
cycle.
I always tell parents that cometo me that have you know that
are starting to see some ofthese bigger behaviors.
Hold off as long as you can onhospital stays and not to say
that you don't have to go thatroute, because sometimes you do
(24:20):
have to go that route.
It is needed, it is necessary.
But if you have a child thatstruggles with attachment and
has diagnoses around attachment,that hospital stay can actually
make things worse, not better.
I have seen it in kids thatdon't have the same level of
(24:42):
attachment struggles.
I have seen it do great thingsright and really give them a
chance to get their medicationin order and to stabilize them.
But I think it's a differentstory sometimes for kids that
have a higher level ofattachment struggle.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah, 100%.
I agree with that.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Well, when you have a child that's in out-of-home
placement, I think I felt somuch shame placement I think I
felt so much shame in thebeginning that my child couldn't
be at home and we were kind ofthe same way.
We got to a place where it wasvery unsafe for our other kids
(25:29):
and it was being bumped upagainst that.
You know, we might face somedifferent things if anything
happened in the home, because weknew there were struggles and
so, anyway, that's part of thereason we sought out longer term
care the way that we did.
(25:49):
But I think people have thisidea that placing them somewhere
else, either for a couple ofmonths and in our area I don't
know about you, anna, but in ourarea most residential
facilities will keep a childthree to six months at a time
because that's all insurancewill take care of, take care of.
(26:12):
But I think I thought if I placethem outside of the home, then
that I haven't done enough, Ihaven't been able to stick it
out, I haven't been able to lovethis child enough to help them
heal, right.
So I want you to talk aboutthat a little bit.
(26:34):
But then I think the other ideais that once they're placed
somewhere else, that we don'thave a role to play, and I think
that's very wrong too.
I think we can still remainvery, very active, very present
in in their journey and theirhealing and all of their stuff
as they go along.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Yeah, so as the shame , oh, my goodness, the shame.
Yes, it is so real and I think,well, mental health as a whole
has such a stigma to it, whichit shouldn't, but it does in our
society.
So we're already have thatissue and that that we're
(27:16):
battling.
But then there's also the selftoo.
As mothers, our job, like atthe core of who we are as a
mother, is to love and protectyour children, and nowhere in
any of the books do they say youmay not be the one to do that.
(27:38):
Yeah, right, like it's allabout.
They need to be with the motherand you need to nurture and
love and give of yourself andall of these things.
And then you realize, wait, I'mnot enough, I can't do this,
and that is a horrible feeling,it is absolutely horrible and I
(27:59):
really, really struggled withthat.
I was just so devastated withmyself, like there were layers
to the grief, when my daughterleft.
I was devastated with myselfthat I wasn't capable of being
the mother she needed me to be,which we'll circle back to that.
(28:19):
But then also, she's not in thehome room floor and the clothes
in the laundry, and there'sjust so much the pictures that
pop up on your phone.
(28:39):
There's so many things thatjust snap you back to reality,
like, oh my goodness, she's nothere.
The empty seat at the dinnertable, it was absolutely
horrific.
And then you have your otherchildren grieving her loss and
they're coming to you crying Imiss her.
I miss her when is she cominghome?
And you have to say I don'tknow, and it's going to be a
long time.
And so there's so many layersto the guilt.
(29:02):
You feel guilty that you'reputting this harm on your
children and that you can'tfunction and you're sad and you
weren't enough.
And so that was a huge processfor me.
And I will say this, and I amprobably going to say this about
10 more times while we'retalking moms need to be in
therapy.
If you are parenting kids fromhard places whether they're in
(29:26):
residential or not, it doesn'tmatter If you are parenting a
child from a hard place, youneed to be in therapy.
And this is a hill I will dieon, because, as moms, we do give
and we always say well, thattakes away resources from the
family.
It takes time.
I don't have time.
The reality is you have an hour.
You have an hour a week.
You can find an hour you can,you can figure out somewhere in
(29:49):
the budget to get that copay orwhatever.
And because it is so importantand it has allowed me to have
the capacity to be a good motherand to be the mother that my
other children need.
It is not taking away, it isadding to my family.
Yeah, that's just another sidenote.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Well, I do want to say, though, while you're
talking about that, though, itis very, very important that
your therapist is traumainformed, so that you are
getting feedback thatunderstands the complexity of
what your situation is, becausea therapist that doesn't
understand that is going to makethings worse.
Shame wise for you, very true,and how they're directing you to
(30:33):
handle things.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yes, that is very true, and I'm spoiled because
I've been with my therapist forthree years now and I love her
and she knows every aspect of mylife.
But she truly walked me throughthe grief.
She had been with me throughthe past several years,
obviously, and building up tothis, she told me that we needed
to do residential, long beforeI considered it and I was like
(30:58):
no, you don't understand.
You don't understand, I couldnever do that.
I'm not doing that to my child,I'm going to maintain a
connection.
And she really sat there andwas like no, and it was after my
daughter left and, processingthrough all this, I was actually
diagnosed with PTSD from whathad happened in the home and
(31:18):
that was the biggest light bulbfor me going Whoa, it was bad.
Yeah, it that was.
It was real, I wasn'texaggerating, I wasn't making
(31:42):
this up and it it was very real.
And so therapy is just soimportant because you have to be
able to process these thingsWell and to have an outside
perspective just to go no, thisis what that is.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
I had told my therapist I'm like I understand
secondary trauma because I knewall the lingo.
I knew all the things.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Sure Right.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
This is not secondary trauma.
This is primary trauma.
You are being abused.
This is a domestic violencesituation.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
And in our situation.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
It was and it wasn't her fault.
It's just.
Her brain works as if she's inactive combat 24-7, just because
of all the abuse sheexperienced.
All the way up Her brain wiredto say people are not safe,
right, and so totally defendingherself constantly against
(32:43):
threats that aren't really there, but on the receiving end of
things to have somebody say thisis not secondary trauma.
You are not just taking on hertrauma, you are actually like
this is primary trauma.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Yeah, and I think it's important.
We never want to say negativethings about our children
because we want to protect them,we want to protect their future
, and saying that we are abusedby our kids really does give a
different people view that,differently than what we
actually mean and what we'resaying.
However, the reality is, Ithink acknowledging that for
(33:20):
myself was, and realizing thiswas an abusive relationship.
We were mother, daughter andthis was such an abusive and
toxic relationship and removingus from the same space and
having the opportunity to laythat foundation and rebuild is
exactly what we needed.
(33:40):
Because I'm not saying thingsare great now, I'm not saying we
have it all figured out.
It's not.
It's horrible still, but itwould have and I don't say this
to be dramatic or negative inany way, but I truly believe
that if in the at that pointresidential hadn't happened, one
(34:04):
or all of us would probably bedead by now.
Yeah, and I think that that isthat's not to be funny or
dramatic.
It's really true.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
It's real life.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Yeah, yes, and I had to step away from it to
acknowledge that and realizethat, because I thought I could
fix it and I thought I could doit.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Yep, well, we're told that, you know, I think so much
.
I love all the trauma training.
I love, you know, theconnection aspect of things and
the ability for human contact tohelp our brains heal I think is
real right.
But I think a lot of times weminimize the impact of trauma.
(34:50):
We minimize how much it damagesthe brain and I don't think
minimizing that when we speakhelps anybody.
Because it is serious.
Like our kids are not justresilient, they're just going to
go about their day.
(35:10):
Like people need to understandjust how serious these impacts
of trauma are.
It is not our kids.
My child that struggles themost, is the most compassionate
the most, the most.
I mean, she is the sweetestperson, but trauma has changed
(35:36):
her brain, it just has.
It has, and there's no wayaround it and we are not enough
to fix it.
There was a couple of years agothere was something that had a
devastating incident with achild that was adopted or
whatever, and somebody there wasan influencer kind of in the
(36:02):
foster care and adoption spacethat got up and made the
statement that no child is toomuch, they're not too much, and
every child needs to know thatthey're not too much.
They're not too much and everychild needs to know that they're
not too much.
And I agree with that whenyou're talking about a child and
(36:23):
a person and who they are attheir core.
But the reality is is sometimesthe trauma is too much, and
when we say things, blanketstatements like that, to make
people feel good, it doesn'thelp anybody, because then what
I felt was a bunch of shame,that I was not enough, that I
(36:49):
was placing that on my child,that I should have been enough,
that on my child, that I shouldhave been enough.
And the fact is is I can't be.
I can't be enough all the time.
I have limits to my body andwhat I can handle and the other
people in my household havelimits to what they can handle.
And in their bodies and youknow what she has limits as to
(37:12):
what.
We're trying to force her inthese boxes without any support,
right Like she has limits as towhat.
We're trying to force her inthese boxes without any support,
right Like she has limits as towhat she can handle and she
needed extra support and extracare that we just weren't able
to give her.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
And I think that's interesting.
Oh sorry.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
I was just going to say.
I would love to know, like youknow, just kind of your thoughts
on that and how, as moms, wecan kind of get over that hump
of not being enough.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Yeah, I mean I don't know that we ever fully get over
it.
Yeah, I mean, there's thatself-doubt and there's that
guilt all the time.
Yeah, do I question myself Isthis the right facility?
Did I put her in the rightplace?
Are we doing too much?
(38:38):
But there was something you saidactually made me think of a
conversation I had with someoneelse who's in a similar boat and
because mom meaning bio mom anddad hurt them so much that just
the relationship of they don'tfeel safe in.
Just because I am mom and myhusband is dad, just because of
those titles alone, they we'reforcing them into this
relationship that is soterrifying to them.
And that was such a profoundmoment when we had this
conversation because my husbandand I looked at each other like,
oh my goodness, we're sittinghere in these family sessions
(39:01):
going, but we love you, we wantyou home, get better, do the
things, come home.
And she's probably going.
That's really scary.
I don't want to, and for us,home is safe.
Mom and dad is safe.
Why wouldn't you want to behere versus a facility where
(39:24):
you're watching fights happenand getting involved in the
things?
Why?
You know the amount of incidentreports I get.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
You are not alone.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
You are not alone.
Oh my goodness, it's been awful, it's been a really bad week
with that, but you want to justscream at them Like we're safe.
Have we not proved that to you?
Like now she's been in our homelonger than she ever was in her
biological family's home, andso you, as a mom, you're like
(39:58):
come on, what is wrong here?
Am I?
How am I not enough?
How am I not giving enough?
And the reality is I never can,because of that trauma, if
anything.
Being mom and constantly beingin her face trying to prove
(40:18):
myself is actually making itworse.
And when that clicked this wasjust this week.
So it's not like I have a tonof like, oh wow, then everything
changed.
But I can see how nowapproaching things differently
may make a huge difference andI'm hopeful.
I don't know, but I think thatgoes back to we have that guilt
(40:43):
and we think that we're notenough.
Maybe we just can't be everbecause of who we are.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's so good and one of the
things that I have seen with mydaughter is I she actually we
have built a better relationshipwith her not being in our home
Interesting we have, because ithas allowed me to pour into her
(41:12):
without me being that threat ofbeing that mom, right, yeah, so
she could build thatrelationship with me and
actually I mean I am the onethat she will call.
I mean I would say herattachment to me has grown, it
has solidified.
I'm the one that she calls.
(41:35):
If she's melting down, ifsomething's going on at the
facility and she's upset and sheneeds to be regulated, she will
call me.
And so it's like that bond hasgrown while she's been away.
But I've had to be veryintentional about that right
Making sure.
I think it takes a lot moreintentionality from me to grow
(41:58):
that relationship while she'snot physically with me every day
.
But I mean I think it'sactually been really good for us
to have a little space so thatI can pour into her and build
that relationship from adistance where it's a little bit
safer for her in her mind, andso I know that you stay
(42:22):
connected.
I mean you're talking abouttherapy sessions with her and
all that kind of stuff.
So what are some ways?
If somebody has a child in anout-of-home placement, what are
some ways that they can keepbeing mom, what are some ways
that they can stay connected andkind of build that attachment
while a child's not at home?
Speaker 2 (42:41):
So I think when we're talking about attachment issues
, I would have told you a yearago that her and I had a very
strong attachment and we werevery, very close.
I think now, looking back, itwas not a real attachment, it
was a survival attachment.
I viewed it as very real.
For her, it was transactional.
(43:03):
Having that type ofrelationship with me and acting
like she was very close with memade it safe for her and gave
her that safety.
So when that all came crashingdown, I was devastated.
I'm like it's all been fake.
She wasn't my, but the realityis I had to refocus.
(43:26):
No, it was her way of survivingin her mind.
She had to act like the try andbe the favorite and be the good
child and be, because that washow she was going to remain safe
around me.
And then she just couldn't keepup the facade anymore.
So in a way, we're building fromalmost nothing and that has
(43:52):
been very hard and I thinkinitially and I don't know if
you experienced this too for usshe's been gone eight months now
, so we're still I don't know,that sounds like such a long
time yet we're still so much inthe beginning stages of that
repair work and it's been really, really hard.
(44:14):
It has not been pretty, it hasbeen very, very ugly, um, and we
don't have I I can't say thatwe it's distance has been good
for us.
I mean, we're not down eachother's throats, I guess you
know like we're not.
You know there is that safety,but I think that that has been
(44:36):
really hard.
I mean, there are, I would say,more phone calls than not where
I'm getting called and cussedout, yeah, but then there's also
those phone calls wheresomething happened and she needs
to talk to mom right now.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
So it's.
It's interesting.
I'm like wait, you just gotdone cussing me out.
Why now you need me?
Okay, um, but I think that isall a part of that repair work
and that building thatfoundation is okay.
Just because you did that to me, I'm still available when you
need me for the hard things, yes, yes.
(45:13):
Yes, and it's hard and I havehad to set boundaries.
I have, and I have had timeswhere I'm like this was too much
, I need to take a few days, andwe've set those boundaries with
the facility ahead of time.
I'm not just ignoring her.
Hey, you went too far this time.
Mom's got a lot of other stuffgoing on too.
(45:34):
I just I need a break.
We're going to call a timeoutand for 48 hours we're just
going to block no phone callsand then in 48 hours, when
you've had time to kind ofregulate, calm down, then we can
talk again.
So I think setting thoseboundaries of I'm still here for
you you don't get to treat melike that though and that's been
(45:55):
really, really important.
Also, what has been reallyimportant, too, is setting the
boundary.
I don't know why, but she lovesto call during dinner.
That's just the time that isher favorite to call, and so we
kind of had to set that boundaryas well.
Like, hey, we are going tofocus, cause I was jumping up
every time to answer that phonecall, like, and then I'm
(46:17):
removing myself from the table,or if it's a rough phone call,
the kids are being exposed to it, and that's not fair to the
ones who are still here.
They need our attention, theyneed that dinner time as a
family and everything.
So we had to set that boundaryof if you call between these
hours we're not going to answer,we just aren't.
You can call us later and wewill, but we're not going to
(46:40):
answer during these hours.
Does she still call multipletimes a week during those hours?
Absolutely, but it alleviatedthat.
Well, why are you ignoring mycalls Now?
She knows She'll still try, butshe knows that we're not
ignoring the calls.
She knows that after well, shehas a pretty strict time too
that she can't call after.
(47:01):
But you know, after certainhours if the sorry we're not
answering, if they really needto get a hold of us, it'll be,
it'll come from a different lineand I'll know.
You know that I that I need toanswer.
So just really being upfrontand setting those boundaries has
really alleviated a lot of theanxiety around her end of
(47:24):
maintaining that connection andI didn't really realize that at
first, how much that, how muchanxiety she has because I mean,
get it, she's 13, she's gettingdropped off.
I was there for an hour to signsome paperwork and then I left
yeah and so I'm that's.
That's traumatic for a 13 yearold yeah, very traumatic,
(47:46):
especially for any 13 year old,let alone having the history
that she had.
So having those clearexpectations and those
boundaries, while it's helpingus and protecting our sanity and
our time with the family athome, it's also easing her
anxiety, too.
Around it.
She knows when she can call,when we will answer, when we're
(48:09):
going to be available, and Ithink that's really important to
set those very clear boundaries.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
I've seen that too.
I have some weekends where I dotraining for the whole weekend
and I let her know ahead of timehey, I'm training this weekend,
so I'm not going to beavailable, and it keeps her mind
from going to a place Now shestill may call, right, but it
(48:36):
keeps her mind from going to aplace of they don't want to
answer.
Like it sets that boundary.
That it's not about that, it'sthat I'm because I think in our
case my daughter quickly goes tothey don't want to answer,
they're rejecting me and soletting her know up front this
is not what.
That is right.
(48:57):
Like I just have times whereI'm not available.
It doesn't mean that you're notimportant, that I'm not going
to answer your call, that I'mnot going to meet your needs,
but just know that you knowduring this time I can't be
available.
I agree that that has probablyeased some of her anxiety.
(49:17):
On our side, I love thoseboundaries that you're setting
within the structure of yourrelationship, that you're saying
, hey, these are my boundaries,I'm not going to be treated in a
way that is unsafe for me.
And I think it's important forparents to know that you don't
have to accept dangerousbehavior.
(49:42):
You can set boundaries thatmake it safe for you as well.
I think I didn't know thatearly on.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
No, I didn't either.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
I would literally just sit there and take the
abuse like physical abuse andjust be like this is what I'm
supposed to do, this is what itlooks like, to be here, no
matter what, yeah, and I thinkthat is not always a good thing
and I think you know that thatis not always a good thing.
(50:12):
Well, I think I know that someresidential facilities have
different policies, havedifferent, you know, and we have
to adhere to whatever theirstuff is.
I know, in our case, we havebeen very grateful to be able to
, like I can bring in food, Ican even.
We're at a point in our journeywe are a little further along
(50:36):
on our journey than you are andI think in the beginning that it
was a lot harder, that distancewas a lot harder, but we are
like seven years in to doing thehospitals and residentials.
I mean we're on likehospitalization, I don't know
number 40, 50.
(50:57):
I stopped counting at somepoint.
And so you know we have beendoing this for a very long time
and I think in the beginning itwas more like what you're
explaining.
I think now we're in a patternwhere their relationship is
actually growing and gettingbetter, but we also have some
(51:22):
flexibility where she is now,because we are further along in
the process and we have a goodrelationship.
The facility that she's in nowis like it's like her fourth
time there and so they know us,we know the situation and, like
I took her to the movies, shewanted to go see the new Mufasa
(51:47):
movie.
We went and, you know, hung outat the movies and I think some
of those things have been verybeneficial as well, because we
do get to have, even in themidst of her being placed
somewhere else, we do get tohave some normal, more normal
mother-daughter moments.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
Yeah, very much looking forward to that.
It's hard.
So the facility that we're atright now, it has a phase system
.
Okay, so you have to.
It's most restricted in phaseone.
Then you kind of graduate andthe restrictions become less.
We're still in phase one, yeah,after eight months.
(52:24):
So she's not able to.
I mean, she has to prove thatshe can be safe to leave the
facility.
Sure, and we're not there yet.
So those are times that I and Ikind of try and dangle the
carrot, like we can do thesethings if you just do the work
and we're just not there yet.
So I'm very excited.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
A lot of times, like those carrots can actually be,
like our kids can sabotagethemselves because they have in
their mind that they're not evergoing to get there, you know,
and so it just creates a veryodd dynamic, but I'll give you
hope those stages do.
They do come to where you knowyou're able to have more
(53:11):
flexibility, or whatever, towhere you know you're able to
have more flexibility, orwhatever.
Well, one other thing that Iwant to ask is how has having a
child placed outside of the homeimpacted the other kids in the
home?
Um, and your family, yourhusband, your family unit?
The way the family works right,like I it, it changes when a
(53:33):
child is, is not there full time.
So, um, how have you seen thatimpact the other kids in your
home?
Speaker 2 (53:41):
It impact them tremendously.
So we have a very large age gap, um, between our two sets of
siblings.
There is a seven year age gapgap there and the little ones
adored their older sisters likethey adore, adored, as if they
don't still.
They absolutely still adorethem, um, so that has been
(54:05):
really difficult and I thinkthey were young enough when my
oldest was gone and she was onlygone for three months, so they
it didn't impact them in thesame way.
Now, um, my youngest daughterand the one who's in residential
now shared a room.
So they, that was very, veryhard, many tears.
(54:29):
I can't sleep without her here.
Where is she?
When is she coming back?
I mean, they were so bonded andreally had just such a sweet
relationship, even though therewas this huge age gap.
It was just the sweetestrelationship between the two of
them.
So that was very, verydevastating and over time it's
(54:51):
she's just kind of accepted itand she doesn't really ask about
her a whole lot, doesn't, whichis also odd.
I don't know.
I don't know.
She's only six.
You know, she's processingthings in her own way.
Now, my little guy, he was, ohno, it all happened on his
(55:13):
fourth birthday, um, the wholething started on his birthday.
Um, so he was just four whenshe left and that was very, very
difficult for him.
He still, I mean, middle of thenight we'll get up and cry.
I just want her home.
When is she coming home?
Very, very hard on him.
(55:36):
His preschool teacher said heprays for her every day during
his snack time prayer.
So that's hard to hear.
And then obviously, my oldest,that's her biological sister and
she's gone and there's so manylayers to it.
One she went throughresidential too and was like I
(55:59):
did it, I got out and moved on.
What's your problem, right?
So there's that aspect of twowildly different reasons for
going, wildly differentpersonalities to begin with,
like those two could not beanywhere different even though
they're sisters.
So I think there's so manyemotions in our home.
(56:21):
My husband is.
He deals with it in verydifferent ways.
He's absolutely devastated byit.
I think his comes out in alittle bit more in anger.
You know why?
Why weren't we enough and whycan't you come?
Why can't you just do what you?
You haven't laid out?
You have the roadmap, do it andcome home.
(56:43):
Um, so we all have dealt with itin different ways, where for me
it's been more that emotional,the like we talk about the guilt
, the struggles of why wasn't Ienough, and then just not having
all of my children here hasbeen very hard.
I'm used to doing things forfour kids and now I have three.
(57:04):
You know I don't have toconsider and it feels wrong to
not consider the one, but Idon't have to, so that has been
really, really challenging.
One thing that has been hugefor us well, really, two things
one and they go together, butone is really surrounding
ourselves with people whounderstand trauma and the
(57:27):
effects of trauma, not only forthe sake of understanding what
happened with our daughter, butalso understanding that this is
very traumatic for our kids too,on top of their other trauma.
So this we got another layerand you know, you think of there
should be no more trauma in theadoptive home.
(57:49):
Well, sorry, we just there's awhole lot right now.
So it's it's been really hardand we really have to surround
ourselves and, in the sameaspect, we have to distance
ourselves from people who don'tunderstand it or who are very
judgmental or are painting analternate narrative of what's
(58:10):
happening.
And we just had to distanceourselves because I'm sorry,
it's one of the times me right,but truly, your words are so
hurtful and we're already so rawthat we can't.
We just can't, and that's justbeen a boundary that we've had
just that too.
Speaker 1 (58:30):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's great to give parents
permission, you know, really inin that space to do both things
to bring some people close andto let them see, you know the
the raw of what's going on.
You know, making sure that thatthat group is very safe, but
(58:54):
also to distance yourself fromsome other influences that may
not be speaking life into yourfamily.
Okay, so I have a question thatI didn't tell you about
beforehand, but just as we'retalking, I would love to know,
like, if you could change onething about the mental health
system I have to choose just one.
(59:20):
Wait a minute.
Speaker 2 (59:23):
We could do a whole series on that.
Amen, amen.
Speaker 1 (59:28):
But if you could change one thing like, what
would be the biggest thing thatyou would change?
Speaker 2 (59:32):
But if you could change one thing like what would
be the biggest thing that youwould change?
I think honestly, truly, thatall therapists, anyone who comes
into contact, nurses, doctors,even social workers, police
(59:56):
officers, any paramedics,anybody who is going to come in
contact with someone who hasmental health struggles,
whatever they are, they have tobe trauma informed, they have to
understand the effects oftrauma, because you would think
that that's common sense andthat they all are and they all
would understand it, but it'sactually really rare for
somebody to understand it, andthat is such a disservice to not
(01:00:18):
only the patients but thefamilies and their caregivers
too.
Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree, and I was very
surprised about that.
Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
I was too, I was too.
Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
There is no trauma awareness in those circles.
I was too.
I was too like in crisisstabilization.
Like how do things go together.
How is this helpful?
How is this helpful?
Right, and I know that that's avery little piece of the puzzle
, but I think it goes to hey,we're not really thinking
through these things, like,we're just kind of going through
(01:01:08):
the motions, we're not reallybeing trauma informed, we're not
thinking through about what'sbest for these kids and how to
set them up for success, how tohelp them heal, but we're just
kind of going through themotions and all of it.
Yeah Well, anna, as we wrap up,what do you, what would you say
, has, like, helped you getthrough all of this turmoil and
(01:01:33):
chaos?
Right, because this is hard,this is hard stuff, this is real
hard stuff.
So, what do you lean on?
What do you look to?
Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
I mean, honestly, my faith in God.
That is the only thing that hasgotten us through this.
I truly don't know how anybodycould face the things that we've
had to face without him thereand I think, having to fully
trust that he has a plan in allof this, when it makes zero
(01:02:08):
sense from my perspective, likeum hello, this makes zero sense.
And he does have a plan, though, and I don't understand it and
I don't see it at all.
I can't even remotelycomprehend it.
But there is a plan and I thinkone of the biggest things too
that I've lately reallystruggled with and I was
(01:02:29):
actually just telling a friendthis last night lately really
struggled with, and I wasactually just telling a friend
this last night I can say that Itrust him and and I truly do, I
trust him.
I trust that he is carrying.
I mean, he is carrying usthrough this.
There's no way.
It's not just I trust that hewill, he is, but I think
sometimes I'm losing that hopethat he will heal her and that
(01:02:54):
we will see the other side ofthis, and that is something I am
really struggling with andreally trying to grasp onto.
Is that hope, the hope that andsome people may think that
they're the same, but I cantrust that he's good, while also
being like I'm losing hope thatyou're going to actually fix
(01:03:14):
this and I'm going to see it inmy lifetime.
And so that has been.
I mean, I'm not going to saythat, oh, my walk of faith has
been great and wonderful andeverything's perfect.
But without that and withoutGod carrying our family through
this, I truly don't know wherewe would be.
That has been everything.
Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
Yeah, yeah, I agree, and I do think sometimes that
wrestling is good right.
Like sometimes those moments,because those places in our
heart of unbelief are there, youknow, I feel like I live in the
constant posture of I believe,Lord, help my unbelief, because
because I do, I do trust, I dobelieve.
(01:03:57):
But there are still those areasthat that kind of pinprick, you
know, do you really in this,like you know, right, this too,
Um.
So I love that you put that outthere.
Well, Anna, I reallyappreciated this conversation
today and I think it's going tobe so helpful for so many
(01:04:17):
parents to not feel alone,because I think a lot of times
when we're facing more escalatedstuff, more elevated behaviors,
I think we can even beyondregular foster care and adoption
aloneness.
Like we, it goes a step furtherthat sometimes we feel
segregated even within theadoption and foster care
(01:04:39):
community, 100%, 100%.
So I appreciate you being heretoday.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, Thank you for havingme.
If you know somebody that isfacing similar challenges, would
you send them this episode?
I really desire for foster andadoptive parents to know that
(01:05:01):
they are not alone, that thereare lots of people that are
facing similar challenges.
Let me pray for us as we wrapup today.
Lord God, thank you so much thatwe can come together and talk
about these hard and difficultthings.
Lord, thank you that we canspeak with grace and receive
(01:05:24):
things with grace.
Help us walk in discernment.
Lord, these challenges in ourhome are hard.
Help us to know that we werenever meant to be enough.
We were meant to be dependenton you.
Lord, give parents grace today.
Give them grace today.
Help them cast away all theguilt, all the shame, and just
(01:05:50):
walk in grace.
Lord, you are good.
Comfort us in these challengingmoments.
Be our strength.
Give us discernment how to walkthese paths in obedience to you
and in honor and love to ourkids.
Lord, we are so thankful thatwe don't have to walk this path
alone.
We love you.
(01:06:11):
We trust you In Jesus' name,amen.
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