September 3, 2025 • 54 mins
Sandra Flach shares her family's journey with Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder and provides essential knowledge for foster and adoptive parents raising children with prenatal alcohol exposure.
• FASD affects 1 in 20 children in the United States—more prevalent than autism
• Only 10% of children with FASD display the facial features needed for diagnosis
• Prenatal alcohol exposure permanently alters brain structure and function
• There is no safe amount of alcohol during pregnancy and no safe time to drink
• Symptoms often intensify during teenage years as executive function demands increase
• Children with FASD may be chronologically one age but developmentally much younger
• Brain-based parenting focuses on understanding behaviors as brain differences
• Breaking tasks into smaller steps and creating routines helps children succeed
• Helping children understand their diagnosis empowers them to self-advocate
• The Justice for Orphans website and "Hope for the FASD Journey" support group provide resources
If this episode encouraged you, please share it with someone who may need it and subscribe so you don't miss what's coming next.
The Link to Sandra's website is JusticeForOrphansNY.org
You can find her at:
Instagram: @afc_journey and @sandraflach_jfo
Facebook: @the Adoption & Foster Care Journey and @Sandra Flach
I'd love to hear from you! Send me a text!
Connect with me on Instagram: @Fosterparentwell
@nicoletbarlow https://www.instagram.com/nicoletbarlow/
Website: https://nicoletbarlow.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome to the Foster Parent Well podcast, where we
have real candid, faith-filledconversations about all things
foster care, adoption and trauma.
I'm your host, nicole T Barlow.
I'm a certified parent trainer,a certified health coach and an
adoptive parent myself.
This is a space where you canfind support so that you can
care for your kids with asteadfast faith, endurance and
(00:32):
joy.
I want you to foster parentwell, so let's jump in.
Hey friends, welcome back tothe show.
(00:57):
It is just past Labor Day andlet me tell you it is back to
school and it came in hot thisyear.
If your house has been anythinglike mine, you know the chaos
is real New schools, newroutines and basically trying to
survive the emotional Olympicsthat comes with all of it.
Y'all.
Our house has been a mess, so Ihaven't posted a podcast in a
(01:22):
few weeks because, well, I mean,that's just where we are.
I'm sure you guys get it, butwe are back.
I am breathing.
The people in my household arebreathing.
Well, mostly we're breathingand we're ready to dive in.
Today we are kicking off FASDAwareness Month with an
(01:42):
incredible guest, sandra Flack.
She is a mom of eight childrenfive through adoption, one
kinship and four international.
Her youngest two are teensdiagnosed with fetal alcohol
spectrum disorder.
With over 30 years of parentingexperience and 20 plus years as
an adoptive parent, she trulyunderstands the difficult road
(02:05):
of parenting children, withtrauma histories, y'all, and she
is still in the trenches withus.
If you haven't heard of FASD orfetal alcohol spectrum disorders
, you are not alone.
It's one of the mostunderdiagnosed and misunderstood
brain-based disabilities outthere, and yet it's way more
(02:25):
common than people think.
And here's the deal.
If you're parenting kids fromhard places, especially in
foster care or adoption, fasdshould absolutely be on your
radar.
It affects behavior, learning,relationships and how our kids
experience the world, and if wedon't understand it, we can't
(02:46):
respond with the connection andsupport our kids so desperately
need.
So whether you know FASD is apart of your family story or
you're just beginning to wonderif it might be, this episode is
absolutely for you.
Sandra brings the truth, thescience and the heart, so let's
get into it.
All right, welcome to the show,sandra.
(03:06):
I'm so excited to have you on.
Introduce yourself.
Tell our audience a little bitabout you, about what you do and
how you got here.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Oh, my goodness.
So I'm Sandra Flack.
First and foremost, I'm anadoptive mom.
My husband and I have eightchildren, five through adoption,
one came as a kinshipConfession.
We never had it on our plan tobecome an adoptive or foster
parent or any of that, althoughwe firmly believe in James 1.27.
(03:36):
So when we had the opportunityto open our home to a relative
who needed a place to go thatwas safe, we did that, and then
the Lord really just opened ourhearts and or maybe I should say
broke our hearts, you know, forthe least of these.
And then we pursued, severalyears later, international
adoption where we ultimatelybrought home a sibling group of
(03:57):
four children from Ukraine, andthat really started our
adventure.
That opened the door forfounding our nonprofit Justice
for Orphans, starting ourpodcast, which was at one time a
radio show on a Christian talkradio station that was local.
And then, as our journeycontinued and I ended up, you
(04:18):
know our children got diagnosed.
Our youngest two got diagnosedwith fetal alcohol syndrome.
That set us on a lifelongjourney of really learning and
trying to support them and learneverything we could.
And the more I learned, themore I recognized how prevalent
FASD is among the fosteradoption kinship population and
how every parent needs tounderstand this.
(04:40):
So we started offering training.
I started speaking more andmore on it and my heart is just
really to support and encourageand equip, foster and adoptive
parents, especially moms.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
I know your resources have been, and all of your
trainings and the podcasts thatyou do have been so helpful for
me in kind of researching somethings in our journey, but how
did you get to an FASD diagnosis?
So, first of all, what is FASD?
Because you mentioned that yourkids were diagnosed with FASD.
(05:14):
What is that and how did youget to that diagnosis?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, that's a great question and it's a loaded one.
So for everybody to know thatFASD is fetal alcohol spectrum
disorder and it is actually inand of itself it's not a
diagnosis, but it's the umbrella.
Under FASD are the diagnosissuch as fetal alcohol syndrome,
the most severe end of thespectrum which my two boys are
(05:39):
diagnosed with.
But there's also ARNDalcohol-related
neurodevelopmental disorder,partial fetal alcohol syndrome,
and then NDPAE, which I think,if I remember, is like
neurodevelopmental partialalcohol effect.
I don't know, I can't rememberall of them, but they're all
(06:00):
under there.
And so my boys got diagnosed.
We didn't know anything aboutanything when we started this
adoption process, our kinshipplacement.
When she came in, because shecame to us, she didn't go into
foster care, so we didn't evenhave the advantage of having
taken the foster care trainingclasses that parents have to
(06:21):
take.
So we didn't know about trauma.
We didn't know anything aboutanything and we didn't even know
we should know anything aboutanything.
That's how bad it was back in1999.
But then we adopted, fastforward to our international,
our kids who came in fromUkraine, and by that time I knew
enough to read a book aboutattachment.
And then somebody said youshould learn something about
(06:43):
fetal alcohol syndrome becauseit's common in kids adopted from
Eastern Europe.
So I'm like okay.
So I did a little researchonline about that and it was
scary and dark and I was like,oh yeah, well, we're not going
to, that's not going to happento us.
And you know, miraculouslyenough, our first three kids
came home from Ukraine and wewere sort of lulled into
(07:03):
thinking we were good at this.
And we were sort of lulled intothinking we were good at this
and we knew what we were doing.
There was a lot of craziness,but not major big behaviors that
made it hard.
And then we traveled for theyoungest sibling a few years
later and the second.
We met him in the orphanage.
We were like, yeah, we are notequipped to bring this
five-year-old home.
This is harder than bringinghome the three other ones at the
(07:23):
same time and I highly suspectthat there's that fetal alcohol
thing going on here.
So we ended up after we did gethome.
We were home about a year and wesought diagnosis.
So actually, so the youngestone, so the youngest two of our
Ukrainian kids they were six andeight at the time they both got
diagnosed by a developmentalpediatrician with fetal alcohol
(07:46):
syndrome and they got diagnosedpretty easily because I believe
they had the facial features,which is there's classic facial
features.
If the facial features arepresent, you'll get a diagnosis
of fetal alcohol syndrome.
Unfortunately, doctors rely onthe facial features in order to
diagnose most of the time andonly about 10% of kids with FASD
(08:12):
actually have the facialfeatures.
So there's about 90% of thekids out there who aren't
getting diagnosed becausedoctors are relying still on
those facial features.
Also, because we were aninternational adoption, we did
have translated court documentsfrom Ukraine that listed the
parents as alcoholics.
So that helped and also becauseit was an international
(08:34):
adoption, I believe there was nobirth mom to shame, so this
doctor felt pretty comfortablegiving this diagnosis.
I find in the States it's reallyhard to get a diagnosis because
doctors don't like to shamebirth moms.
Not only are they looking forfacial features, they're also
(08:55):
looking for maternal admissionof alcohol consumption during
pregnancy and with foster andadoption.
We don't often have thatinformation.
We might know there was druguse and if there was drug use it
is highly likely there wasalcohol and alcohol is more
harmful than the drugs.
Even so, it's hard to get adiagnosis.
We were able to get one.
(09:16):
They also got diagnosed withADHD and pretty much what
happened.
The doctor gave us a pamphleton ADHD much what happened.
The doctor gave us a pamphleton ADHD, the diagnosis of FAS
and ADHD, and said have a niceday there was like nothing
offered after that.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
So it was like, yeah, still no help there.
Yeah, that that is hard.
And because I feel like I meaneven recently, I know in our
area when we went throughtraining 13 years ago, it wasn't
part of our training to gothrough foster care or whatever.
Now in our state they have justswitched over the training and
(09:55):
in doing training there is asection on substance use in
utero and we do focus mainly onalcohol because of the effects
of alcohol.
But I didn't get thatinformation coming through and
still, even though it's in thatinformation that we train in the
(10:15):
beginning, I find that there'sjust not a whole lot of
information on what it actuallylooks like.
What it actually looks like.
So when you went to pick upyour fourth, the fourth child in
the sibling group, what was itthat made you say, hey, this is
different and we may need tolook at FAS?
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yeah, so he was out of control.
He was five years old andhonestly, there obviously was
the trauma piece because he hadbeen in the orphanage since a
newborn till the age of five.
So there was definitely trauma.
And the thing with FASD is theprimary symptoms of FASD very
(10:58):
much overlap with the samesymptoms of trauma, overlap with
the same symptoms of trauma.
And so sometimes parents andthis was me too like, is this
from the trauma, is this fromthe alcohol?
And probably the answer is yes,it's from both, because they're
very much the same symptoms.
But if you do have both traumaand prenatal exposure to alcohol
(11:19):
, the symptoms, the behaviors,are compounded.
It's harder, like next levelhard.
So we just saw this little kidwho was like a wild animal and
very impulsive, didn't have goodcommunication skills, didn't
have good language, couldn'treally communicate very well
even in his own language, justout of control, and he was tiny.
(11:45):
There was just those things.
And then, once we did get himhome, it was like we couldn't
keep him off the top of therefrigerator.
He was just very impulsive, hadno concept of right or wrong,
or we said no, not to do this,and he would just go do this and
would just rock.
(12:07):
You know, there was a lot ofrocking, there was a lot of
rhythmic stuff, there was a lotof sensory stuff, so all of
these things.
So we sought a counselor whospecializes in adoption and I
brought it up to her and shesaid I agree that it's probably
fetal alcohol syndrome and sherecommended us pursuing that
diagnosis with the developmentalpediatrician.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah, I think.
Plus you mentioned that he hadthe facial features of fetal
alcohol.
So there are some verydistinguished facial features
that come with some forms ofthat diagnosis, but that's not
always true.
So why does it affect kids,sometimes with facial features
(12:50):
and sometimes it doesn't?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah.
So what happens is, in orderfor the facial features to be
affected, alcohol would have tohave been consumed during the
pregnancy, on days 15 through 18of gestation, so when the face
is being formed in utero, ifalcohol is introduced, alcohol
isn't filtered out, it crossesthe placental barrier.
(13:14):
I've heard another trainer saythe phrase if mom drinks, baby
drinks, so it's toxic, it's ateratogen, it alters cells, it
kills cells and so on, justthose very few days during the
pregnancy.
If mom drinks, then the face isaffected and those classic
(13:34):
features will present.
Mom could be drinking all theother days, but not those days.
And then there's still alcoholexposure and the brain is
affected, but the face won't be.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Well, days, 15 through 18, I mean they probably
don't even know that they'repregnant, right, yeah, I mean I
wonder how much that comes intoplay and in a lot of situations,
not because the mom is analcoholic or has a drinking
problem, but just becausethey're even a casual drinker
(14:09):
that doesn't know that they'repregnant yet have been
prenatally exposed.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
That is higher than autism, which I believe the
number for autism is one in 35.
And it is because most peopledrink and you know this doesn't
just affect alcoholic drugaddict moms.
(14:33):
Right, this is.
You know, a lot of women drinkand unless you're planning a
pregnancy and watching thecalendar and you're avoiding
alcohol, you could be drinkingalcohol.
The calendar and you'reavoiding alcohol, you could be
drinking alcohol just casually,a glass of wine every weekend.
And if you're pregnant it canaffect the development of the
baby because there's no knownsafe amount of alcohol, there's
(14:55):
no known safe time in apregnancy and there's no safe
type of alcohol.
So it's like Russian roulette.
You really don't want to takethat chance because there's so
many different variables to theimpact that the alcohol could
have.
Our daughter who came in throughkinship, her mom had died of
(15:16):
cancer.
Her mom had a career, she wasin her 30s, she was single and
she was not an alcoholic.
But she also had another healthcondition and was told she
could never conceive.
So she was about 10, 12 weeksinto her pregnancy when she
suddenly realized, much to herjoy, that she was pregnant,
(15:37):
because she didn't think shecould ever have children.
But even during those first,say, 10 weeks she was just
drinking.
Maybe she went out every Fridaynight with girlfriends after
work and had a couple glasses ofwine.
That is all it takes, becausefast forward everything that I
now know as primary symptoms ofFASD.
Our daughter, who came in askinship, has all of those
(16:00):
symptoms and she's now 35.
And there's still things rightthat it's still obvious.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yeah Well, I mean I could see how that could come
into play pretty regularly.
And I mean I have heard a shiftin the rhetoric around what is
safe to consume when you'repregnant and there are doctors
that are saying now, hey, it'sokay to have a glass of wine
(16:27):
every now and then.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, and one of my daughters is expecting her first
baby and she was upset becauseshe was told she couldn't have
sushi, because she loves sushiand you can't have raw fish.
And I said, did they sayanything about alcohol?
And she was like no, I don'tthink they did and I'm like
don't drink anything.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah Well, I mean, when you have seen the effects,
it's like I think sometimespeople downplay trauma too with
the kind of rhetoric that kidsare resilient, that they're
going to overcome, that it iswhat it is right.
But when you see it up close,when you understand the back
ends of what has happened andhow it affects kids, you're like
(17:09):
you understand the magnitude ofthe impact that trauma actually
has on a child's life.
I think it's the same, don'tyou, that when you see the
effects of how it changes achild's life if they have been
exposed in utero, I would thinkthat it completely changes your
(17:30):
perspective on alcohol, evensocially.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
And FASD is a lifelong physicaldisability that affects the
brain and the body of people whowere exposed in utero and it
alters brain cells, it killsbrain cells and it literally
changes the function andstructure of the brain.
And while progress can be madeand we know, we hear a lot in
(17:58):
the trauma community aboutneuroplasticity right, the brain
is plastic.
So, yes, new neural pathwayscan be formed and that kind of
thing.
But so far the research isindicating that maybe the FASD
brain is not as plastic becausealcohol was introduced, because
(18:19):
the harm that has come.
The brain is formed from bottomto top and as alcohol is
introduced it kills and alterscells.
So if you think about thoseneural pathways, it's like
they're broken, they'redestroyed and by the time you
get to the top of the brain theprefrontal cortex, executive
function, all of those thingseverything is off kilter.
(18:40):
So there's just so much thatyou're going to gain.
So that's why these individuals, our kids, need so much in the
way of support and services,possibly lifelong.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah, I can see that it feels a lot more like a
traumatic brain injury yes, verymuch so Than emotional trauma,
because we do talk a lot on thispodcast about how kids can heal
from trauma, how to helpsupport healing and all of those
things.
But I that my research.
(19:12):
I have seen the same thingswhere the, the there are
limitations to what that lookslike with fetal alcohol.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Yeah, and I mean our kids can become very successful,
they can learn lots of things,but it is really an invisible
disability because most kids,unless they have the facial
features and I find the averageperson doesn't even see the
facial features we can recognizesomebody with Down syndrome,
but you're not so quickly goingto recognize somebody with FAS,
(19:45):
even if they have the facialfeatures.
The symptoms are behavioral, soit looks like defiance and
disobedience and rebellion andall of that when really it's not
that they're giving us a hardtime or choosing to do those
things.
They're having a hard time.
They really can't function andmeet the expectations that we
have on them because their brainworks differently.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Yeah, well, you talked about you know, in your
youngest you noticed right awaythat there were differences.
But I have seen, and one of thethings we're starting to
research in one of our kids isthat sometimes some of those
symptoms don't really start toshow until they enter the
teenage years or young adulthoodbecause of the changes that are
(20:33):
taking place in the brain andthe things that are required of
kids or young adults, you know,in that age range.
So can you explain that alittle bit about why that is?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Exactly.
You hit the nail on the headbecause that's what happened to
us.
We got the diagnosis but therereally wasn't anything out there
.
And when I did get home afterthe diagnosis and then I opened
the computer again and did alittle research back then this
going several years back theonly thing I found about FAS was
if your kid has a diagnosis ofthat, they're facing a future of
(21:04):
addiction, homelessness,incarceration, high rates of
suicide.
So I was like I think I'll justshut the computer off and I'm
not going to look at thatanymore.
But what we had found at thetime was I had a copy of the
Connected Child by Dr Purvis andwe dove into Empower to Connect
and the Connected Child and allthe TBRI stuff and applied all
(21:25):
of those things and they helpedus.
We got connection, attachment,made great gains with our two
youngest plus our other kids aswe began to understand the
impacts of trauma.
But then they became teenagersand it was like what is going on
here, because we do haveconnection and attachment, like
why are all these crazy thingshappening?
(21:45):
So, yeah, when different agesand different stages and, of
course, as you know, whenteenagers were starting to get
the hormones, are kicking in allof that, the chemistry changes
and it becomes more obvious alsobecause as they become involved
in, like middle school, highschool expectations are set on
(22:07):
the kids that they really can'tmeet it.
There begins to become thiswider gap between where our kids
are and where theirneurotypical peers are and they
kind of get left behind and itbecomes very challenging and
parents begin to struggle and wesee these things as behaviors
and we are trying to fix thebehaviors without really
(22:29):
understanding there's really abrain-based condition going on
here behind the behaviors and weneed to support our kids.
So when my boys began to go offthe tracks, that's when I began
to really dive in and pursueand learn everything I could
about FASD and thankfully bythen there was a little more out
there and the more I was ableto learn and get professional
(22:50):
training to help my kids, themore I was like.
Every adoptive and fosterparent needs to know this
because it affects probably 80%of kids in foster and adoptive
placements.
That's a lot and most are notdiagnosed and parents don't know
.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Sure, absolutely Well , we didn't really look at that
as a diagnosis for any of ourkids.
Our kids came to us nine yearsago and there was one child that
has some more severe diagnosesand they had mentioned probably
some sort of exposure, but mostlikely more drug exposure.
(23:28):
But we hadn't looked at thatfor our other children.
But now that my kids areentering some of my kids are
entering adulthood, we see areally big gap in what they are
able to do and what their peersare able to do.
And I know when we train fosterparents now that I train this
(23:52):
section, this module on exposurein utero we talk about how kids
can regurgitate informationoften, but that when they're
required to think, when they'rerequired to problem solve, when
they're required to use more ofthat executive function part of
(24:14):
their brain, that criticalthinking part of their brain,
then that's when they struggle.
So can you tell us why thathappens?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yeah, as they get older, you mean.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yes, as they get older.
I mean because when they'reyounger their days are kind of
laid out.
I mean our kids don't have todo a lot of thinking about the
structure of their day and theirschedule and all of their
things, and even in school a lotof it is one plus one is two.
Just remembering one plus oneis two and there may be some
(24:51):
memory issues that we have seenin the past.
But when they get to an agewhere it's like, okay, well, now
you have to take thisinformation and think through it
and kind of form your ownopinion, they struggle doing
that sort of task.
And as a teenager enteringadulthood and thinking about
(25:15):
life on their own and planningfor their future and putting
things in place that are movingthem towards that future in
place that are moving themtowards that future, we've seen
a really big gap in what theyare able to do on their own
without constant instruction andlaying it out.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah, and a lot of that that you listed is really
executive function, which ishighly impacted by alcohol
exposure.
So planning, organizing,linking cause and effect this is
one of the reasons whyconsequences don't really work
with our kids with FASD, becausetheir brain can't make that
link between oh, I did thisthing and now I'm suffering the
(25:57):
consequences, I'm in school,suspension, or I've had my cell
phone taken away or whatever.
It is partly because ofshort-term memory challenges.
They're already moved on.
Their brain has moved on to thenext thing, so they haven't
really retained the incidentthat caused them to get the
consequence.
And then you have to be able tolink okay, so I did this thing.
(26:19):
Here's my consequence.
I don't like this consequence,so therefore I'm not going to do
that behavior again.
There's a disconnect.
They don't link those thingstogether, so they have a really
hard time learning fromconsequences.
And then the planning, theorganizing, impulse control is
also controlled.
Our impulses are controlled byexecutive function.
(26:40):
So when there's poor executivefunction, there's poor impulse
control.
Decision making is also part ofthat and things like language,
like you mentioned, they canrepeat or regurgitate, but then
there's no execution of theinformation because they don't
really understand it.
They might be able to repeat it, that doesn't mean they
understand it or they look likethey understand what we're
(27:03):
talking about and then they canbe agreeing with us.
I just I had a few years ago, abig conversation with my teenage
son, 15 years old.
It's very important for 15 yearold boys to understand
boundaries right, goodboundaries, good words.
And you know good behavior.
You know appropriate boundaries, appropriate words, and we were
(27:23):
.
I was having this greatconversation with him about
appropriate words, appropriateboundaries, appropriate words,
and we were.
I was having this greatconversation with him about
appropriate words, appropriateboundaries.
It appeared like he wastracking with me.
We were having a greatconversation.
He was yep, yeah, you're right,yeah, yeah.
And just something made me askat the end of the conversation
do you know what appropriatemeans?
And he was like, no, what doesthat mean?
And I could have left thatconversation thinking we are all
(27:45):
good here and he just he, youknow, he didn't know what that
was.
So we simplified it down tothis very simple script of good
words, good boundaries, you knowpractice.
What that was reminded him allthe time and every time he goes
anywhere church, when he wasgoing to school out in the
community.
(28:05):
Now he has a part-time job, hegoes to work Good words, good
boundaries Because he couldunderstand that and he can
remember that.
But he had a hard time withappropriate.
And then a few years later, hewas getting ready to go
somewhere and it was a very warmspring day and he was trying to
put on winter boots.
He just wanted to stuff hisfeet in the boots and go and I'm
like no, wear your sneakers.
(28:26):
It's going to be like 75 today.
No, I'm going to wear theseboots.
No, wear your sneakers.
He's like no, I'm just going towear these.
And I was like those are notappropriate.
And he said I didn't sayanything wrong because in his
mind he'd learned appropriatehad to do with words.
He couldn't then bring thatover to apply to things like
(28:47):
clothing or maybe television ormusic or whatever right.
So they have a hard time withlanguage and communication as
well and they also tend to bevery concrete, literal thinkers.
So as our kids get older andthings like money, understanding
and managing money and time, asour kids get older and things
like money, understanding andmanaging money and time, as our
kids get older and they'rehaving to do that, they also
(29:09):
have a hard time managing thosethings.
One of my boys had, when hestarted working, had all of this
money.
He would cash these paychecksand put the money in his wallet.
And we were like you need abank account because you can't
carry all this cash around withyou.
And he said no, the bank justtakes your money.
And we were like, yeah, it does, but it keeps it safe.
But see to him if he couldn'tsee it?
(29:31):
He didn't have it so hecouldn't trust that the bank
would have it and he ended uplosing a bunch of his money.
His wallet got lost.
So then we insisted on the bankaccount and we were able to
show him.
Now you have this bank app.
You can see your money on yourphone.
It is in there.
You have this debit card.
You can access it.
But it was examples like that.
(29:52):
As our kids get older, thingslike car insurance is very
nebulous, right?
What is car insurance exactly?
Because we had one of our kidsget in big trouble not paying
their car insurance, becausethat's very abstract and they
have a hard time understandingit.
So, especially as they get intomiddle school, high school and
beyond, that's when you reallybegin to see the challenges
(30:15):
individuals who are prenatallyexposed face, because they have
a hard time managing time, thosethings and I didn't mention.
I want to mention slowprocessing pace, because that's
a huge one for our kids andthat's where they have a hard
time catching everything that'sspoken to them.
So you know, they mightsometimes we say they catch
every third word or maybe theyonly catch something at the very
(30:38):
end that was said.
So if you give them a long listof things to do, they'll most
likely only do the last thingthat was said.
So if you give them a long listof things to do, they'll most
likely only do the last thingthat was said because they
didn't catch it all.
So it really becomes achallenge when kids are in
school and the teacher calls onthem and they're supposed to
respond with an answer instantlyand they can't, and then the
teacher assumes they're notpaying attention or they were
(30:59):
fooling around or they don'tcare or whatever.
But they have a hard timeresponding in the moment.
They need extra time, they needless words spoken to them and
they need, you know, we need tokeep it more simplified
sometimes and slow it down.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Oh, all of that is just such good information and I
think you gave some really goodtips.
But how do you parentdifferently?
Right, if you suspect FAS, fasdyou have a diagnosis or not,
but you suspect it how do youparent differently than you
(31:37):
would parent, saying, using TBRIor the connected child or
something like that?
Like what are the differencesthat you would do from
traditional trauma parenting?
Speaker 2 (31:48):
So I think that TBRI, the traditional trauma
parenting, lays a perfectfoundation for this because they
marry so well together WithFASD.
We've learned to take abrain-based approach which
really TBRI takes intoconsideration trauma-impacted
brain development and thenthat's going to impact behavior.
(32:09):
So we need to take the historyinto consideration, right.
So with our kids who wereexposed to alcohol in utero,
their brain has been alsoaffected.
So we need to take that intoconsideration as well.
So the big question I trainparents to look for, or to
always ask, is what does mychild's brain have to do with
(32:29):
this behavior?
Right, when it comes to anyexpectation, can their brain do
this?
So you know, a big part ofprenatal exposure is also we
used to call it dismaturity.
The language is now kind ofleaning more towards
developmental timeline.
So a lot of times our kids areyounger cognitively,
(32:50):
developmentally, socially rightthan their neurotypical peers.
You can see it with trauma andit's also very common in kids
with FASD.
So, taking into consideration,if I have a 12-year-old and I
want them to go clean their roomand I say, go clean your room,
if developmentally we find themto really be more like six,
(33:11):
we're going to need to set ourexpectation on cleaning that
room, at what a six-year-old cando, because that's where they
are.
Can they gain steps and growand get better?
Yes, over time maybe, but wehave to meet them where they're
at.
So with any expectation wealways have to figure out our
best guess.
Where are they developmentally,cognitively?
(33:33):
Is this even a reasonableexpectation?
So, because if you have afive-year-old who's having a
hard time in kindergarten andthey can't sit still and they're
not following directions andthey have a hard time sharing
and you know the school'scalling every day and
everything's just disastrous andthe child doesn't even want to
go and they're crying all thetime, if they've been prenatally
exposed and we can figure out,you know, really they're more
(33:54):
like two adults.
We don't put two-year-olds inkindergarten all day and expect
them to sit still, so possiblythey're just not ready for
kindergarten.
So we have to always look atthe expectation.
Can their brain match thatright?
Is their brain able to even dothat?
What are the things?
(34:15):
So I always, when I work withfamilies and when I teach this,
I go through all the primarysymptoms of FASD and when you
know them and then you're havinga hard time, your child's
having a hard time withsomething and then we look at
okay, so what primary symptomcomes into play here?
Right?
So if you're expecting a childto do something that they really
can't do, how can we help themto be able to do that?
(34:36):
What accommodations could comeinto play?
And the way we've done it isknowing, like, for example, our
son.
You know we have a lot of landthat, a lot of lawn mowing that
needs to be done in thesummertime.
You know we have a teenage sonand you know you would think any
teenage son would love to geton a riding zero turn lawnmower
(34:57):
and spend their day making.
You know we are paying, likewe'll pay you to do this, and he
just was so overwhelmed andwould flat out refuse.
And then the more I learnedabout this, about FASD and
understanding you know what?
We have a huge yard.
It's overwhelming.
He doesn't really know where tostart.
He doesn't know where to gonext, he doesn't know when he's
(35:18):
done, he doesn't have a goodgrasp on time.
So he'll be out there for 15minutes and think he's been out
there for two hours and come inlike fried and done.
So if you don't understand whatyou're looking at, it looks
like we have a lazy teenager whojust doesn't want to work.
But when we factored in, well,you know what.
He also has sensory issues, sohe would benefit from some noise
(35:41):
canceling headphones whilemowing.
He needs a timer, so he knowsokay, at least stay out there
for 30 minutes.
And then dad started going outwith him, because our son also
needs a lot of and not everybodywith an FASD has this, but our
son, our youngest son, is soimpacted that he really requires
one-on-one guidance for mosttasks.
(36:03):
He can feed himself and dresshimself and things like that.
However, to stay on task andcomplete a task and know what to
do and follow the steps, heneeds support and guidance.
So my husband will go out withhim and my husband will either
be also mowing or he'll use theweed whacker.
But he'll tell my son okay,just do this section here from
(36:26):
here to here.
And then when he's done withthat, my husband will say okay,
now do this section.
So we've sectioned it off.
And then he's made a routineout of.
These are the order we do thesections in each week.
So it becomes very routine andjust taking all of those things
into consideration andunderstanding, we just can't say
go mow the lawn.
That's a huge, overwhelming task, but breaking it down into
(36:47):
smaller steps and taking intoconsideration his symptoms and
how we can support each one ofthose, he can learn to mow the
lawn and he can do a pretty goodjob at it, although then
there's very odd things, nicole,like the one day he was
supposed to be mowing the lawn.
He was literally driving themower up and down the driveway
for like an hour.
I thought he was out theremowing the lawn.
(37:07):
No, he's driving up and downthe paved driveway, not mowing
anything, but was out there foran hour and I'm like, could you
have at least drive on the grassand cut it, so there, so
there's like no rhyme or reason,but that's where, like, his
brain had him just going up anddown the driveway and it's like
okay.
(37:28):
So sometimes it's just likethat's the FASD brain yeah, yeah
, gosh.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Well, how much do your kids know about their
diagnosis and how do you balance, like sharing with them their
limitations and stillencouraging them to be at their
best?
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Yeah, those are great questions Because when I didn't
know in the early days of this,we didn't talk about it so much
.
But as I began to learn, then Ibegan to talk about the brain
more and more at home and madeit very normal to talk about the
brain and how everybody'sbrains work differently.
And because I know my boys havememory challenges, I make sure
(38:14):
that when I've done somethingwhere I forgot, I went to the
store, I got this list of stuffand, oh my gosh, I completely
forgot to get milk, like it wason my list, and I walked out
without it.
I can point out to them momforgot.
Everybody forgets thingssometimes so that they don't
feel so, because they face somany challenges every day.
They feel like failures all thetime and that's we start seeing
(38:35):
secondary symptoms whichinclude things like depression,
aggression, frustration,symptoms which include things
like depression, aggression,frustration.
There's a whole list of thingsbecause their brain has to work
so much harder to do what theaverage person can do.
It's frustrating and exhausting.
So I try to normalize talkingabout the brain and talking
about the symptoms, and so myyounger son, who's now 19, he
(39:00):
understands because he'llsometimes say oh, brain, think
he knows he has a hard time.
We talk about FASD all the time.
He'll sometimes say you don'tknow how hard FASD is and I'm
like tell me, tell me what'shard, tell me why you have a
hard time being in school.
Right, there's too many people.
He'll tell me it's too loud,there's too much talking,
(39:20):
there's fire drills, like allthose things overwhelmed him.
So he had a very modifiedschool day when he was in school
.
So we've normalized it with him.
But then my next older son hedoes not want to have a
disability, he does not want tobe identified as that, did not
(39:40):
want to even really talk aboutit.
So the way we do it with him iswith.
But he knows he's got certainchallenges and they had IEPs in
school.
And my son who's now he'll be22 soon he works but he has a
job with our family business.
So he gets accommodations,although I don't think he
realizes he gets accommodationsbecause, it's understood, he
(40:03):
does drive.
My younger son may never drive,but this son does drive.
However, he was having a reallyhard time one day at work and he
got in trouble because he wastold to do one thing which was,
I think, change a tire.
He was in the middle of thatand then all of a sudden an
employer is, his older brothersaid I need you to go do this
(40:25):
right now, you need to go pickup these parts right now.
And my and so the son with the,with the FASD, was like I'm
send, you know, send the otherguy, I'm doing this, right?
Well, you're not supposed totell the boss what to do.
But so there was this littlekerfuffle at work and then
afterwards I heard about itlater that night and I said so
(40:45):
why was that hard?
And because I already knew, youknow, kids with FASD have a
really hard time transitioningfrom one task to the next.
They also get hyper-focused.
We call it perseveration.
They get hyper-focused on whatthey're doing, so it's hard for
them to move to the next thing.
So he was told to do the tire,to change the tire.
(41:07):
So he was all in, focused onthat.
So he had a really hard timestopping in the middle of that
task, transitioning to the nextthing.
You told me to do this.
This is a very literal,concrete thing.
So his brain has a hard timedoing that.
So then, having theconversation with him, so, yeah,
it's hard for you to changegears so fast, right?
(41:28):
And he was like, yeah, I don'tlike doing that.
And I said, well, that is apart of how your brain works.
Because of the FASD, next timemaybe tell your boss.
Can I finish this first?
Try to have that conversation.
I have a hard time switchinggears.
And we've made sure that hisemployer, even though it's a
family employer, understands thesymptoms of FASD.
(41:50):
I've given documentation justso that they can take that into
consideration.
He's also a volunteerfirefighter, this son.
However, because of his sizeand because of other health
conditions, he can't do interiorfirefighting.
But he took an exteriorfirefighting course and had
accommodations for that becausehe had had an IEP.
He is another one that has slowprocessing pace.
(42:13):
He also requires things to beread to him, so he's very
hands-on and thrives in thatarea.
So most of the course washands-on, except for at the end
of each module there was amultiple choice test and so he
had accommodations.
The test questions would beread to him and he could give
his answer verbally, and thatworked out great for most of the
(42:36):
course.
But there was one module wherethe instructor was different and
he read the test questions andhe read them fast.
So it was a test question,multiple choice answer options
and then he'd be on to the nextquestion and my son hadn't
picked his answer yet and thenhe was like falling behind.
But he advocated for himselfbecause he came home very
(42:56):
frustrated and I said you have ahard time catching verbal
information.
That's part of FASD.
You can go back and ask forthem to give you that test over
and read the question slowernext time.
And he did, he advocated forhimself, they allowed him to
take it a second time and hepassed it because they
understood we have to just readit a little slower and give them
(43:17):
a little more time to answer.
So it's important that theyunderstand their symptoms and
they understand FASD, if theyhave it, so that they can
advocate for themselves whenthey get older.
So it just depends on the kidand their age.
I find the younger the kids are, the more we can normalize.
Talking about the brain,everybody's brain works
differently, everybody hasdifferent strengths and
(43:39):
everybody needs help indifferent ways.
But talking about the brain howthe brain works and then
talking about it in the sense ofsymptoms, your brain works this
way.
You're going to need extra helpwith this.
You're going to need this listto help you remember the steps.
Things like that, I think, canhelp our kids learn about
themselves and what help thatthey need, and to be able to
(44:01):
advocate for themselves even asthey get older.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
That's awesome.
I mean I love the equippingthat you're doing with your kids
and the empowering that you'redoing that you're still
explaining you know how theirbrain works.
You're explaining some of thelimitations or some of the
struggles that they may have,but you're empowering them to
(44:25):
advocate for themselves, to finda way to work with those things
, to still be able to accomplisha task.
So I mean I think that isreally amazing.
How do you this kind of goeshand in hand but especially as
kids are moving into teenage andadulthood, how do you help them
(44:47):
have their own voice, havetheir own opinion, make their
own choices?
But if they're developmentallyless than teenager adult,
mentally less than teenageradult, right, how do you balance
letting them have their voiceand stepping in when they need
it?
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Yeah, every kid is different and FASD is a spectrum
, right.
Not every kid is going topresent with every symptom and
at different stages you may seedifferent symptoms develop.
And it's been challenging,especially as they get older.
Our one son drives, the otherone may not drive.
And when he turned 16, peoplewere asking him oh, because
(45:30):
where we live, you can get alearner's permit to drive when
you're 16.
And people were asking him,much to my like.
I was trying to like no, no, no, don't ask them that you know.
And he would say to me oh,you're mean, you won't let me
get a driver's license.
And I said, well, okay, butfirst, in order to get a
driver's license, you have topass a written test.
And he was like oh really,because he was like not wanting
(45:53):
anything to do with it.
And then I said the other thingis is like where would you go if
you had a driver's license?
And he was like, hmm, texas,now we live in New York, so he
doesn't know anybody in Texas.
And so it's like, yeah, I don'tthink you're quite ready for
this driver's license thing yet.
Because that's one of thescariest things is they can't
(46:15):
necessarily make wise decisionsabout where to go.
That's safe.
Make wise decisions about whereto go, that's safe.
So when safety comes into playbecause this son can drive the
lawnmower, he can ride afour-wheeler, he can drive a
golf cart, he can drive thingsand do really well with that but
when he's riding in the carwith me going somewhere, he has
a lot of anxiety about the carin front of us and the car
(46:37):
coming up alongside of us.
And so, first of all, I'm noteven sure how he would do in
traffic, but being able to makea safe choice about where to go.
Our other son, who's thefirefighter, who does drive he
did in the very beginning we'vediscovered he went someplace
that was not safe for him to go,so we had to have a big
(46:57):
conversation about that and Ithink he over time got it.
But being able to just havethose conversations so that
they're, you know, giving themvoice.
Like we know you want to be avolunteer firefighter.
You know we support you in that.
We know that you want to likeright now that son wants to quit
(47:19):
his actual job and repair golfcarts.
So we had to explain you knowyou're so good at doing hands-on
things and repairing things andthat's a great side hustle, but
you can't quit your likeeveryday job.
To do that there's not enough.
You need health insurance, youneed to be able to pay bills.
You're not going to be able todo that, so this would be
(47:42):
something you could do on theside, but you're not going to
quit your day job.
So you know he just thoughtwell, I've, I've repaired two
golf carts, I have a businessnow and it's like that's not
really how this works.
So coming alongside and try toteach and mentor and and and
invite other people, like he'sgot an older brother who's a
great mentor that helps him atwork.
(48:04):
But it is challenging becauseour kids and what kids do none
of them like to be told what todo.
But I find, especially with myyoungest, he needs to be told
what to do throughout the daywith just basic daily tasks,
like it's time to brush yourteeth, it's time to go get
dressed, you need to weardeodorant.
And at 19, he'll say I don'tlike to brush my teeth.
(48:27):
I'm like, well, but we brushour teeth every day before we
leave the house, so he's more.
That's where he requires moreone-on-one and every kid is
different, right?
So he's requiring more.
Kids with FASD can haveanywhere from a low IQ to a very
high IQ, so it can be anywhere.
(48:48):
So one of mine has a low IQ,one has more of an average IQ.
So it's just.
Every kid is different.
Knowing where they're at,understanding what supports
they're going to need and givingthem voice and teaching them
about this so that they canadvocate for themselves is
really important going into thefuture.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
Sandra.
All of that is just invaluableinformation for parents to have
and to be able to research andto know that this is even a
thing for the majority of usthat we don't.
We're not, most of us are notresearching this and looking
into it.
So if parents want to learnmore, if they want to find you,
(49:32):
where can they?
Speaker 2 (49:32):
find you.
Oh, thanks so much.
So if you go to our website,which is justicefororphansnyorg,
we have a whole section on ourwebsite dedicated to our foster
and adoption resources, which mypodcast is the Adoption and
Foster Care Journey.
So you can find the podcast onall the major platforms.
(49:53):
We have social media also theAdoption and Foster Care Journey
and at our Justice for Orphanswebsite, there's a whole section
dedicated to the adoption andfoster care journey.
Very, very soon anyway, it'sgoing through some major
overhauls.
If you go to our website andjust look at training or FASD
resources, you'll find it allthere, but in the updated
(50:16):
website we have a whole sectionthat's adoption and foster care
journey, which includes thetraining that I do for foster
and adoptive parents andprofessionals as well, as we
have a support group called Hopefor the FASD Journey.
It's an online support groupfor parents of kiddos with FASD,
whether they're diagnosed ornot, and we have parents who
(50:37):
have kids as young as five.
Many of us have older kids.
It is faith-based, we pray witheach other, we encourage each
other and that's a great way tostay connected and really find
your tribe, because we know weneed adoptive and foster parents
, need each other and if,especially, you're parenting
kids who've been prenatallyexposed, it's next level crazy.
(50:58):
So we like really need eachother.
So that's on there as well asthe podcast, and you can also
reach out to me through thewebsite as well.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
And I will also say you guys, I'll put a link to
this but Sandra has written abook that's kind of told her
their journey through adoptionand you guys, I read this book
in like two and a half days.
Like I will say, sandra, likemy kids were not very happy with
me reading this book because Istayed up all night and was
super cranky the next day but Icould not put it down.
(51:29):
I mean, it was just so good theway that it's written and just,
I think, learning about howother people get into this space
and what their journey lookslike I think is always so
amazing.
It's amazing to see otherpeople that are walking the same
path that we are, and you're sohonest throughout the book.
(51:51):
I think it's really refreshing.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
Oh well, thank you.
So that book is my first bookis Orphans no More A Journey
Back to the Father.
So that is our adoption story,as well as what I learned about
our spiritual adoption aschildren of God through being an
adoptive parent.
And then I actually haveanother book coming out,
probably late fall, and it is adevotional for foster and
adoptive moms and it's calledSoul Care Saturday 52 Devotions
(52:19):
for Foster and Adoptive Moms.
So stay tuned to my socialmedia and our website for that,
because that'll be released thisfall.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
Awesome, I am super excited.
Well, sandra, thank you so muchfor sharing with us today and
being such a great resource forthe foster and adoptive
community.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
Oh, thanks so much, Nicole.
I appreciate the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
What a great conversation.
I'm so grateful for Sandra andthe wisdom that she brought
today.
Fasd is big and complex andhonestly it can feel very
overwhelming.
But knowledge is power.
When we understand what'sreally going on in our kids'
brains and bodies, we can tradefrustration for compassion and
reaction for connection.
(53:01):
That's the work.
If this episode stirredsomething in you, maybe gave you
some clarity or maybe evenbrought up some grief for you,
just know that you are not alone.
I see you.
You're doing hard work ofshowing up for your kids in ways
the world may never fullyunderstand, and that matters.
If this episode encouraged you,would you share it with someone
(53:23):
else who may need it?
And, if you haven't already, goahead and subscribe so you
don't miss what's coming up next.
We've got more powerfulconversations in the lineup this
month.
Let me pray over us as we close.
Father.
Thank you for every parentlistening right now.
You know the weight they carryand the love they pour out,
(53:44):
especially when it's not easyand when the path isn't clear.
Give them supernatural strengthand wisdom and peace.
Help them see their childthrough your eyes and remind
them that they are not alone,that you go before them, you are
behind them and you are notalone, that you go before them,
you are behind them and you areright beside them.
(54:04):
Fill their homes with grace andpatience and moments of joy,
even in the chaos.
We love you, lord.
We trust you In Jesus' name,amen, thank you.
Welcome to the Foster Parent Well podcast, where we
have real candid, faith-filledconversations about all things
foster care, adoption and trauma.
I'm your host, nicole T Barlow.
I'm a certified parent trainer,a certified health coach and an
adoptive parent myself.
This is a space where you canfind support so that you can
care for your kids with asteadfast faith, endurance and
(00:32):
joy.
I want you to foster parentwell, so let's jump in.
Hey friends, welcome back tothe show.
(00:57):
It is just past Labor Day andlet me tell you it is back to
school and it came in hot thisyear.
If your house has been anythinglike mine, you know the chaos
is real New schools, newroutines and basically trying to
survive the emotional Olympicsthat comes with all of it.
Y'all.
Our house has been a mess, so Ihaven't posted a podcast in a
(01:22):
few weeks because, well, I mean,that's just where we are.
I'm sure you guys get it, butwe are back.
I am breathing.
The people in my household arebreathing.
Well, mostly we're breathingand we're ready to dive in.
Today we are kicking off FASDAwareness Month with an
(01:42):
incredible guest, sandra Flack.
She is a mom of eight childrenfive through adoption, one
kinship and four international.
Her youngest two are teensdiagnosed with fetal alcohol
spectrum disorder.
With over 30 years of parentingexperience and 20 plus years as
an adoptive parent, she trulyunderstands the difficult road
(02:05):
of parenting children, withtrauma histories, y'all, and she
is still in the trenches withus.
If you haven't heard of FASD orfetal alcohol spectrum disorders
, you are not alone.
It's one of the mostunderdiagnosed and misunderstood
brain-based disabilities outthere, and yet it's way more
(02:25):
common than people think.
And here's the deal.
If you're parenting kids fromhard places, especially in
foster care or adoption, fasdshould absolutely be on your
radar.
It affects behavior, learning,relationships and how our kids
experience the world, and if wedon't understand it, we can't
(02:46):
respond with the connection andsupport our kids so desperately
need.
So whether you know FASD is apart of your family story or
you're just beginning to wonderif it might be, this episode is
absolutely for you.
Sandra brings the truth, thescience and the heart, so let's
get into it.
All right, welcome to the show,sandra.
(03:06):
I'm so excited to have you on.
Introduce yourself.
Tell our audience a little bitabout you, about what you do and
how you got here.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Oh, my goodness.
So I'm Sandra Flack.
First and foremost, I'm anadoptive mom.
My husband and I have eightchildren, five through adoption,
one came as a kinshipConfession.
We never had it on our plan tobecome an adoptive or foster
parent or any of that, althoughwe firmly believe in James 1.27.
(03:36):
So when we had the opportunityto open our home to a relative
who needed a place to go thatwas safe, we did that, and then
the Lord really just opened ourhearts and or maybe I should say
broke our hearts, you know, forthe least of these.
And then we pursued, severalyears later, international
adoption where we ultimatelybrought home a sibling group of
(03:57):
four children from Ukraine, andthat really started our
adventure.
That opened the door forfounding our nonprofit Justice
for Orphans, starting ourpodcast, which was at one time a
radio show on a Christian talkradio station that was local.
And then, as our journeycontinued and I ended up, you
(04:18):
know our children got diagnosed.
Our youngest two got diagnosedwith fetal alcohol syndrome.
That set us on a lifelongjourney of really learning and
trying to support them and learneverything we could.
And the more I learned, themore I recognized how prevalent
FASD is among the fosteradoption kinship population and
how every parent needs tounderstand this.
(04:40):
So we started offering training.
I started speaking more andmore on it and my heart is just
really to support and encourageand equip, foster and adoptive
parents, especially moms.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
I know your resources have been, and all of your
trainings and the podcasts thatyou do have been so helpful for
me in kind of researching somethings in our journey, but how
did you get to an FASD diagnosis?
So, first of all, what is FASD?
Because you mentioned that yourkids were diagnosed with FASD.
(05:14):
What is that and how did youget to that diagnosis?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, that's a great question and it's a loaded one.
So for everybody to know thatFASD is fetal alcohol spectrum
disorder and it is actually inand of itself it's not a
diagnosis, but it's the umbrella.
Under FASD are the diagnosissuch as fetal alcohol syndrome,
the most severe end of thespectrum which my two boys are
(05:39):
diagnosed with.
But there's also ARNDalcohol-related
neurodevelopmental disorder,partial fetal alcohol syndrome,
and then NDPAE, which I think,if I remember, is like
neurodevelopmental partialalcohol effect.
I don't know, I can't rememberall of them, but they're all
(06:00):
under there.
And so my boys got diagnosed.
We didn't know anything aboutanything when we started this
adoption process, our kinshipplacement.
When she came in, because shecame to us, she didn't go into
foster care, so we didn't evenhave the advantage of having
taken the foster care trainingclasses that parents have to
(06:21):
take.
So we didn't know about trauma.
We didn't know anything aboutanything and we didn't even know
we should know anything aboutanything.
That's how bad it was back in1999.
But then we adopted, fastforward to our international,
our kids who came in fromUkraine, and by that time I knew
enough to read a book aboutattachment.
And then somebody said youshould learn something about
(06:43):
fetal alcohol syndrome becauseit's common in kids adopted from
Eastern Europe.
So I'm like okay.
So I did a little researchonline about that and it was
scary and dark and I was like,oh yeah, well, we're not going
to, that's not going to happento us.
And you know, miraculouslyenough, our first three kids
came home from Ukraine and wewere sort of lulled into
(07:03):
thinking we were good at this.
And we were sort of lulled intothinking we were good at this
and we knew what we were doing.
There was a lot of craziness,but not major big behaviors that
made it hard.
And then we traveled for theyoungest sibling a few years
later and the second.
We met him in the orphanage.
We were like, yeah, we are notequipped to bring this
five-year-old home.
This is harder than bringinghome the three other ones at the
(07:23):
same time and I highly suspectthat there's that fetal alcohol
thing going on here.
So we ended up after we did gethome.
We were home about a year and wesought diagnosis.
So actually, so the youngestone, so the youngest two of our
Ukrainian kids they were six andeight at the time they both got
diagnosed by a developmentalpediatrician with fetal alcohol
(07:46):
syndrome and they got diagnosedpretty easily because I believe
they had the facial features,which is there's classic facial
features.
If the facial features arepresent, you'll get a diagnosis
of fetal alcohol syndrome.
Unfortunately, doctors rely onthe facial features in order to
diagnose most of the time andonly about 10% of kids with FASD
(08:12):
actually have the facialfeatures.
So there's about 90% of thekids out there who aren't
getting diagnosed becausedoctors are relying still on
those facial features.
Also, because we were aninternational adoption, we did
have translated court documentsfrom Ukraine that listed the
parents as alcoholics.
So that helped and also becauseit was an international
(08:34):
adoption, I believe there was nobirth mom to shame, so this
doctor felt pretty comfortablegiving this diagnosis.
I find in the States it's reallyhard to get a diagnosis because
doctors don't like to shamebirth moms.
Not only are they looking forfacial features, they're also
(08:55):
looking for maternal admissionof alcohol consumption during
pregnancy and with foster andadoption.
We don't often have thatinformation.
We might know there was druguse and if there was drug use it
is highly likely there wasalcohol and alcohol is more
harmful than the drugs.
Even so, it's hard to get adiagnosis.
We were able to get one.
(09:16):
They also got diagnosed withADHD and pretty much what
happened.
The doctor gave us a pamphleton ADHD much what happened.
The doctor gave us a pamphleton ADHD, the diagnosis of FAS
and ADHD, and said have a niceday there was like nothing
offered after that.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
So it was like, yeah, still no help there.
Yeah, that that is hard.
And because I feel like I meaneven recently, I know in our
area when we went throughtraining 13 years ago, it wasn't
part of our training to gothrough foster care or whatever.
Now in our state they have justswitched over the training and
(09:55):
in doing training there is asection on substance use in
utero and we do focus mainly onalcohol because of the effects
of alcohol.
But I didn't get thatinformation coming through and
still, even though it's in thatinformation that we train in the
(10:15):
beginning, I find that there'sjust not a whole lot of
information on what it actuallylooks like.
What it actually looks like.
So when you went to pick upyour fourth, the fourth child in
the sibling group, what was itthat made you say, hey, this is
different and we may need tolook at FAS?
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yeah, so he was out of control.
He was five years old andhonestly, there obviously was
the trauma piece because he hadbeen in the orphanage since a
newborn till the age of five.
So there was definitely trauma.
And the thing with FASD is theprimary symptoms of FASD very
(10:58):
much overlap with the samesymptoms of trauma, overlap with
the same symptoms of trauma.
And so sometimes parents andthis was me too like, is this
from the trauma, is this fromthe alcohol?
And probably the answer is yes,it's from both, because they're
very much the same symptoms.
But if you do have both traumaand prenatal exposure to alcohol
(11:19):
, the symptoms, the behaviors,are compounded.
It's harder, like next levelhard.
So we just saw this little kidwho was like a wild animal and
very impulsive, didn't have goodcommunication skills, didn't
have good language, couldn'treally communicate very well
even in his own language, justout of control, and he was tiny.
(11:45):
There was just those things.
And then, once we did get himhome, it was like we couldn't
keep him off the top of therefrigerator.
He was just very impulsive, hadno concept of right or wrong,
or we said no, not to do this,and he would just go do this and
would just rock.
(12:07):
You know, there was a lot ofrocking, there was a lot of
rhythmic stuff, there was a lotof sensory stuff, so all of
these things.
So we sought a counselor whospecializes in adoption and I
brought it up to her and shesaid I agree that it's probably
fetal alcohol syndrome and sherecommended us pursuing that
diagnosis with the developmentalpediatrician.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah, I think.
Plus you mentioned that he hadthe facial features of fetal
alcohol.
So there are some verydistinguished facial features
that come with some forms ofthat diagnosis, but that's not
always true.
So why does it affect kids,sometimes with facial features
(12:50):
and sometimes it doesn't?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah.
So what happens is, in orderfor the facial features to be
affected, alcohol would have tohave been consumed during the
pregnancy, on days 15 through 18of gestation, so when the face
is being formed in utero, ifalcohol is introduced, alcohol
isn't filtered out, it crossesthe placental barrier.
(13:14):
I've heard another trainer saythe phrase if mom drinks, baby
drinks, so it's toxic, it's ateratogen, it alters cells, it
kills cells and so on, justthose very few days during the
pregnancy.
If mom drinks, then the face isaffected and those classic
(13:34):
features will present.
Mom could be drinking all theother days, but not those days.
And then there's still alcoholexposure and the brain is
affected, but the face won't be.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Well, days, 15 through 18, I mean they probably
don't even know that they'repregnant, right, yeah, I mean I
wonder how much that comes intoplay and in a lot of situations,
not because the mom is analcoholic or has a drinking
problem, but just becausethey're even a casual drinker
(14:09):
that doesn't know that they'repregnant yet have been
prenatally exposed.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
That is higher than autism, which I believe the
number for autism is one in 35.
And it is because most peopledrink and you know this doesn't
just affect alcoholic drugaddict moms.
(14:33):
Right, this is.
You know, a lot of women drinkand unless you're planning a
pregnancy and watching thecalendar and you're avoiding
alcohol, you could be drinkingalcohol.
The calendar and you'reavoiding alcohol, you could be
drinking alcohol just casually,a glass of wine every weekend.
And if you're pregnant it canaffect the development of the
baby because there's no knownsafe amount of alcohol, there's
(14:55):
no known safe time in apregnancy and there's no safe
type of alcohol.
So it's like Russian roulette.
You really don't want to takethat chance because there's so
many different variables to theimpact that the alcohol could
have.
Our daughter who came in throughkinship, her mom had died of
(15:16):
cancer.
Her mom had a career, she wasin her 30s, she was single and
she was not an alcoholic.
But she also had another healthcondition and was told she
could never conceive.
So she was about 10, 12 weeksinto her pregnancy when she
suddenly realized, much to herjoy, that she was pregnant,
(15:37):
because she didn't think shecould ever have children.
But even during those first,say, 10 weeks she was just
drinking.
Maybe she went out every Fridaynight with girlfriends after
work and had a couple glasses ofwine.
That is all it takes, becausefast forward everything that I
now know as primary symptoms ofFASD.
Our daughter, who came in askinship, has all of those
(16:00):
symptoms and she's now 35.
And there's still things rightthat it's still obvious.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yeah Well, I mean I could see how that could come
into play pretty regularly.
And I mean I have heard a shiftin the rhetoric around what is
safe to consume when you'repregnant and there are doctors
that are saying now, hey, it'sokay to have a glass of wine
(16:27):
every now and then.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, and one of my daughters is expecting her first
baby and she was upset becauseshe was told she couldn't have
sushi, because she loves sushiand you can't have raw fish.
And I said, did they sayanything about alcohol?
And she was like no, I don'tthink they did and I'm like
don't drink anything.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah Well, I mean, when you have seen the effects,
it's like I think sometimespeople downplay trauma too with
the kind of rhetoric that kidsare resilient, that they're
going to overcome, that it iswhat it is right.
But when you see it up close,when you understand the back
ends of what has happened andhow it affects kids, you're like
(17:09):
you understand the magnitude ofthe impact that trauma actually
has on a child's life.
I think it's the same, don'tyou, that when you see the
effects of how it changes achild's life if they have been
exposed in utero, I would thinkthat it completely changes your
(17:30):
perspective on alcohol, evensocially.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
And FASD is a lifelong physicaldisability that affects the
brain and the body of people whowere exposed in utero and it
alters brain cells, it killsbrain cells and it literally
changes the function andstructure of the brain.
And while progress can be madeand we know, we hear a lot in
(17:58):
the trauma community aboutneuroplasticity right, the brain
is plastic.
So, yes, new neural pathwayscan be formed and that kind of
thing.
But so far the research isindicating that maybe the FASD
brain is not as plastic becausealcohol was introduced, because
(18:19):
the harm that has come.
The brain is formed from bottomto top and as alcohol is
introduced it kills and alterscells.
So if you think about thoseneural pathways, it's like
they're broken, they'redestroyed and by the time you
get to the top of the brain theprefrontal cortex, executive
function, all of those thingseverything is off kilter.
(18:40):
So there's just so much thatyou're going to gain.
So that's why these individuals, our kids, need so much in the
way of support and services,possibly lifelong.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah, I can see that it feels a lot more like a
traumatic brain injury yes, verymuch so Than emotional trauma,
because we do talk a lot on thispodcast about how kids can heal
from trauma, how to helpsupport healing and all of those
things.
But I that my research.
(19:12):
I have seen the same thingswhere the, the there are
limitations to what that lookslike with fetal alcohol.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Yeah, and I mean our kids can become very successful,
they can learn lots of things,but it is really an invisible
disability because most kids,unless they have the facial
features and I find the averageperson doesn't even see the
facial features we can recognizesomebody with Down syndrome,
but you're not so quickly goingto recognize somebody with FAS,
(19:45):
even if they have the facialfeatures.
The symptoms are behavioral, soit looks like defiance and
disobedience and rebellion andall of that when really it's not
that they're giving us a hardtime or choosing to do those
things.
They're having a hard time.
They really can't function andmeet the expectations that we
have on them because their brainworks differently.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Yeah, well, you talked about you know, in your
youngest you noticed right awaythat there were differences.
But I have seen, and one of thethings we're starting to
research in one of our kids isthat sometimes some of those
symptoms don't really start toshow until they enter the
teenage years or young adulthoodbecause of the changes that are
(20:33):
taking place in the brain andthe things that are required of
kids or young adults, you know,in that age range.
So can you explain that alittle bit about why that is?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Exactly.
You hit the nail on the headbecause that's what happened to
us.
We got the diagnosis but therereally wasn't anything out there
.
And when I did get home afterthe diagnosis and then I opened
the computer again and did alittle research back then this
going several years back theonly thing I found about FAS was
if your kid has a diagnosis ofthat, they're facing a future of
(21:04):
addiction, homelessness,incarceration, high rates of
suicide.
So I was like I think I'll justshut the computer off and I'm
not going to look at thatanymore.
But what we had found at thetime was I had a copy of the
Connected Child by Dr Purvis andwe dove into Empower to Connect
and the Connected Child and allthe TBRI stuff and applied all
(21:25):
of those things and they helpedus.
We got connection, attachment,made great gains with our two
youngest plus our other kids aswe began to understand the
impacts of trauma.
But then they became teenagersand it was like what is going on
here, because we do haveconnection and attachment, like
why are all these crazy thingshappening?
(21:45):
So, yeah, when different agesand different stages and, of
course, as you know, whenteenagers were starting to get
the hormones, are kicking in allof that, the chemistry changes
and it becomes more obvious alsobecause as they become involved
in, like middle school, highschool expectations are set on
(22:07):
the kids that they really can'tmeet it.
There begins to become thiswider gap between where our kids
are and where theirneurotypical peers are and they
kind of get left behind and itbecomes very challenging and
parents begin to struggle and wesee these things as behaviors
and we are trying to fix thebehaviors without really
(22:29):
understanding there's really abrain-based condition going on
here behind the behaviors and weneed to support our kids.
So when my boys began to go offthe tracks, that's when I began
to really dive in and pursueand learn everything I could
about FASD and thankfully bythen there was a little more out
there and the more I was ableto learn and get professional
(22:50):
training to help my kids, themore I was like.
Every adoptive and fosterparent needs to know this
because it affects probably 80%of kids in foster and adoptive
placements.
That's a lot and most are notdiagnosed and parents don't know
.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Sure, absolutely Well , we didn't really look at that
as a diagnosis for any of ourkids.
Our kids came to us nine yearsago and there was one child that
has some more severe diagnosesand they had mentioned probably
some sort of exposure, but mostlikely more drug exposure.
(23:28):
But we hadn't looked at thatfor our other children.
But now that my kids areentering some of my kids are
entering adulthood, we see areally big gap in what they are
able to do and what their peersare able to do.
And I know when we train fosterparents now that I train this
(23:52):
section, this module on exposurein utero we talk about how kids
can regurgitate informationoften, but that when they're
required to think, when they'rerequired to problem solve, when
they're required to use more ofthat executive function part of
(24:14):
their brain, that criticalthinking part of their brain,
then that's when they struggle.
So can you tell us why thathappens?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yeah, as they get older, you mean.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yes, as they get older.
I mean because when they'reyounger their days are kind of
laid out.
I mean our kids don't have todo a lot of thinking about the
structure of their day and theirschedule and all of their
things, and even in school a lotof it is one plus one is two.
Just remembering one plus oneis two and there may be some
(24:51):
memory issues that we have seenin the past.
But when they get to an agewhere it's like, okay, well, now
you have to take thisinformation and think through it
and kind of form your ownopinion, they struggle doing
that sort of task.
And as a teenager enteringadulthood and thinking about
(25:15):
life on their own and planningfor their future and putting
things in place that are movingthem towards that future in
place that are moving themtowards that future, we've seen
a really big gap in what theyare able to do on their own
without constant instruction andlaying it out.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah, and a lot of that that you listed is really
executive function, which ishighly impacted by alcohol
exposure.
So planning, organizing,linking cause and effect this is
one of the reasons whyconsequences don't really work
with our kids with FASD, becausetheir brain can't make that
link between oh, I did thisthing and now I'm suffering the
(25:57):
consequences, I'm in school,suspension, or I've had my cell
phone taken away or whatever.
It is partly because ofshort-term memory challenges.
They're already moved on.
Their brain has moved on to thenext thing, so they haven't
really retained the incidentthat caused them to get the
consequence.
And then you have to be able tolink okay, so I did this thing.
(26:19):
Here's my consequence.
I don't like this consequence,so therefore I'm not going to do
that behavior again.
There's a disconnect.
They don't link those thingstogether, so they have a really
hard time learning fromconsequences.
And then the planning, theorganizing, impulse control is
also controlled.
Our impulses are controlled byexecutive function.
(26:40):
So when there's poor executivefunction, there's poor impulse
control.
Decision making is also part ofthat and things like language,
like you mentioned, they canrepeat or regurgitate, but then
there's no execution of theinformation because they don't
really understand it.
They might be able to repeat it, that doesn't mean they
understand it or they look likethey understand what we're
(27:03):
talking about and then they canbe agreeing with us.
I just I had a few years ago, abig conversation with my teenage
son, 15 years old.
It's very important for 15 yearold boys to understand
boundaries right, goodboundaries, good words.
And you know good behavior.
You know appropriate boundaries, appropriate words, and we were
(27:23):
.
I was having this greatconversation with him about
appropriate words, appropriateboundaries, appropriate words,
and we were.
I was having this greatconversation with him about
appropriate words, appropriateboundaries.
It appeared like he wastracking with me.
We were having a greatconversation.
He was yep, yeah, you're right,yeah, yeah.
And just something made me askat the end of the conversation
do you know what appropriatemeans?
And he was like, no, what doesthat mean?
And I could have left thatconversation thinking we are all
(27:45):
good here and he just he, youknow, he didn't know what that
was.
So we simplified it down tothis very simple script of good
words, good boundaries, you knowpractice.
What that was reminded him allthe time and every time he goes
anywhere church, when he wasgoing to school out in the
community.
(28:05):
Now he has a part-time job, hegoes to work Good words, good
boundaries Because he couldunderstand that and he can
remember that.
But he had a hard time withappropriate.
And then a few years later, hewas getting ready to go
somewhere and it was a very warmspring day and he was trying to
put on winter boots.
He just wanted to stuff hisfeet in the boots and go and I'm
like no, wear your sneakers.
(28:26):
It's going to be like 75 today.
No, I'm going to wear theseboots.
No, wear your sneakers.
He's like no, I'm just going towear these.
And I was like those are notappropriate.
And he said I didn't sayanything wrong because in his
mind he'd learned appropriatehad to do with words.
He couldn't then bring thatover to apply to things like
(28:47):
clothing or maybe television ormusic or whatever right.
So they have a hard time withlanguage and communication as
well and they also tend to bevery concrete, literal thinkers.
So as our kids get older andthings like money, understanding
and managing money and time, asour kids get older and things
like money, understanding andmanaging money and time, as our
kids get older and they'rehaving to do that, they also
(29:09):
have a hard time managing thosethings.
One of my boys had, when hestarted working, had all of this
money.
He would cash these paychecksand put the money in his wallet.
And we were like you need abank account because you can't
carry all this cash around withyou.
And he said no, the bank justtakes your money.
And we were like, yeah, it does, but it keeps it safe.
But see to him if he couldn'tsee it?
(29:31):
He didn't have it so hecouldn't trust that the bank
would have it and he ended uplosing a bunch of his money.
His wallet got lost.
So then we insisted on the bankaccount and we were able to
show him.
Now you have this bank app.
You can see your money on yourphone.
It is in there.
You have this debit card.
You can access it.
But it was examples like that.
(29:52):
As our kids get older, thingslike car insurance is very
nebulous, right?
What is car insurance exactly?
Because we had one of our kidsget in big trouble not paying
their car insurance, becausethat's very abstract and they
have a hard time understandingit.
So, especially as they get intomiddle school, high school and
beyond, that's when you reallybegin to see the challenges
(30:15):
individuals who are prenatallyexposed face, because they have
a hard time managing time, thosethings and I didn't mention.
I want to mention slowprocessing pace, because that's
a huge one for our kids andthat's where they have a hard
time catching everything that'sspoken to them.
So you know, they mightsometimes we say they catch
every third word or maybe theyonly catch something at the very
(30:38):
end that was said.
So if you give them a long listof things to do, they'll most
likely only do the last thingthat was said.
So if you give them a long listof things to do, they'll most
likely only do the last thingthat was said because they
didn't catch it all.
So it really becomes achallenge when kids are in
school and the teacher calls onthem and they're supposed to
respond with an answer instantlyand they can't, and then the
teacher assumes they're notpaying attention or they were
(30:59):
fooling around or they don'tcare or whatever.
But they have a hard timeresponding in the moment.
They need extra time, they needless words spoken to them and
they need, you know, we need tokeep it more simplified
sometimes and slow it down.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Oh, all of that is just such good information and I
think you gave some really goodtips.
But how do you parentdifferently?
Right, if you suspect FAS, fasdyou have a diagnosis or not,
but you suspect it how do youparent differently than you
(31:37):
would parent, saying, using TBRIor the connected child or
something like that?
Like what are the differencesthat you would do from
traditional trauma parenting?
Speaker 2 (31:48):
So I think that TBRI, the traditional trauma
parenting, lays a perfectfoundation for this because they
marry so well together WithFASD.
We've learned to take abrain-based approach which
really TBRI takes intoconsideration trauma-impacted
brain development and thenthat's going to impact behavior.
(32:09):
So we need to take the historyinto consideration, right.
So with our kids who wereexposed to alcohol in utero,
their brain has been alsoaffected.
So we need to take that intoconsideration as well.
So the big question I trainparents to look for, or to
always ask, is what does mychild's brain have to do with
(32:29):
this behavior?
Right, when it comes to anyexpectation, can their brain do
this?
So you know, a big part ofprenatal exposure is also we
used to call it dismaturity.
The language is now kind ofleaning more towards
developmental timeline.
So a lot of times our kids areyounger cognitively,
(32:50):
developmentally, socially rightthan their neurotypical peers.
You can see it with trauma andit's also very common in kids
with FASD.
So, taking into consideration,if I have a 12-year-old and I
want them to go clean their roomand I say, go clean your room,
if developmentally we find themto really be more like six,
(33:11):
we're going to need to set ourexpectation on cleaning that
room, at what a six-year-old cando, because that's where they
are.
Can they gain steps and growand get better?
Yes, over time maybe, but wehave to meet them where they're
at.
So with any expectation wealways have to figure out our
best guess.
Where are they developmentally,cognitively?
(33:33):
Is this even a reasonableexpectation?
So, because if you have afive-year-old who's having a
hard time in kindergarten andthey can't sit still and they're
not following directions andthey have a hard time sharing
and you know the school'scalling every day and
everything's just disastrous andthe child doesn't even want to
go and they're crying all thetime, if they've been prenatally
exposed and we can figure out,you know, really they're more
(33:54):
like two adults.
We don't put two-year-olds inkindergarten all day and expect
them to sit still, so possiblythey're just not ready for
kindergarten.
So we have to always look atthe expectation.
Can their brain match thatright?
Is their brain able to even dothat?
What are the things?
(34:15):
So I always, when I work withfamilies and when I teach this,
I go through all the primarysymptoms of FASD and when you
know them and then you're havinga hard time, your child's
having a hard time withsomething and then we look at
okay, so what primary symptomcomes into play here?
Right?
So if you're expecting a childto do something that they really
can't do, how can we help themto be able to do that?
(34:36):
What accommodations could comeinto play?
And the way we've done it isknowing, like, for example, our
son.
You know we have a lot of landthat, a lot of lawn mowing that
needs to be done in thesummertime.
You know we have a teenage sonand you know you would think any
teenage son would love to geton a riding zero turn lawnmower
(34:57):
and spend their day making.
You know we are paying, likewe'll pay you to do this, and he
just was so overwhelmed andwould flat out refuse.
And then the more I learnedabout this, about FASD and
understanding you know what?
We have a huge yard.
It's overwhelming.
He doesn't really know where tostart.
He doesn't know where to gonext, he doesn't know when he's
(35:18):
done, he doesn't have a goodgrasp on time.
So he'll be out there for 15minutes and think he's been out
there for two hours and come inlike fried and done.
So if you don't understand whatyou're looking at, it looks
like we have a lazy teenager whojust doesn't want to work.
But when we factored in, well,you know what.
He also has sensory issues, sohe would benefit from some noise
(35:41):
canceling headphones whilemowing.
He needs a timer, so he knowsokay, at least stay out there
for 30 minutes.
And then dad started going outwith him, because our son also
needs a lot of and not everybodywith an FASD has this, but our
son, our youngest son, is soimpacted that he really requires
one-on-one guidance for mosttasks.
(36:03):
He can feed himself and dresshimself and things like that.
However, to stay on task andcomplete a task and know what to
do and follow the steps, heneeds support and guidance.
So my husband will go out withhim and my husband will either
be also mowing or he'll use theweed whacker.
But he'll tell my son okay,just do this section here from
(36:26):
here to here.
And then when he's done withthat, my husband will say okay,
now do this section.
So we've sectioned it off.
And then he's made a routineout of.
These are the order we do thesections in each week.
So it becomes very routine andjust taking all of those things
into consideration andunderstanding, we just can't say
go mow the lawn.
That's a huge, overwhelming task, but breaking it down into
(36:47):
smaller steps and taking intoconsideration his symptoms and
how we can support each one ofthose, he can learn to mow the
lawn and he can do a pretty goodjob at it, although then
there's very odd things, nicole,like the one day he was
supposed to be mowing the lawn.
He was literally driving themower up and down the driveway
for like an hour.
I thought he was out theremowing the lawn.
(37:07):
No, he's driving up and downthe paved driveway, not mowing
anything, but was out there foran hour and I'm like, could you
have at least drive on the grassand cut it, so there, so
there's like no rhyme or reason,but that's where, like, his
brain had him just going up anddown the driveway and it's like
okay.
(37:28):
So sometimes it's just likethat's the FASD brain yeah, yeah
, gosh.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Well, how much do your kids know about their
diagnosis and how do you balance, like sharing with them their
limitations and stillencouraging them to be at their
best?
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Yeah, those are great questions Because when I didn't
know in the early days of this,we didn't talk about it so much
.
But as I began to learn, then Ibegan to talk about the brain
more and more at home and madeit very normal to talk about the
brain and how everybody'sbrains work differently.
And because I know my boys havememory challenges, I make sure
(38:14):
that when I've done somethingwhere I forgot, I went to the
store, I got this list of stuffand, oh my gosh, I completely
forgot to get milk, like it wason my list, and I walked out
without it.
I can point out to them momforgot.
Everybody forgets thingssometimes so that they don't
feel so, because they face somany challenges every day.
They feel like failures all thetime and that's we start seeing
(38:35):
secondary symptoms whichinclude things like depression,
aggression, frustration,symptoms which include things
like depression, aggression,frustration.
There's a whole list of thingsbecause their brain has to work
so much harder to do what theaverage person can do.
It's frustrating and exhausting.
So I try to normalize talkingabout the brain and talking
about the symptoms, and so myyounger son, who's now 19, he
(39:00):
understands because he'llsometimes say oh, brain, think
he knows he has a hard time.
We talk about FASD all the time.
He'll sometimes say you don'tknow how hard FASD is and I'm
like tell me, tell me what'shard, tell me why you have a
hard time being in school.
Right, there's too many people.
He'll tell me it's too loud,there's too much talking,
(39:20):
there's fire drills, like allthose things overwhelmed him.
So he had a very modifiedschool day when he was in school
.
So we've normalized it with him.
But then my next older son hedoes not want to have a
disability, he does not want tobe identified as that, did not
(39:40):
want to even really talk aboutit.
So the way we do it with him iswith.
But he knows he's got certainchallenges and they had IEPs in
school.
And my son who's now he'll be22 soon he works but he has a
job with our family business.
So he gets accommodations,although I don't think he
realizes he gets accommodationsbecause, it's understood, he
(40:03):
does drive.
My younger son may never drive,but this son does drive.
However, he was having a reallyhard time one day at work and he
got in trouble because he wastold to do one thing which was,
I think, change a tire.
He was in the middle of thatand then all of a sudden an
employer is, his older brothersaid I need you to go do this
(40:25):
right now, you need to go pickup these parts right now.
And my and so the son with the,with the FASD, was like I'm
send, you know, send the otherguy, I'm doing this, right?
Well, you're not supposed totell the boss what to do.
But so there was this littlekerfuffle at work and then
afterwards I heard about itlater that night and I said so
(40:45):
why was that hard?
And because I already knew, youknow, kids with FASD have a
really hard time transitioningfrom one task to the next.
They also get hyper-focused.
We call it perseveration.
They get hyper-focused on whatthey're doing, so it's hard for
them to move to the next thing.
So he was told to do the tire,to change the tire.
(41:07):
So he was all in, focused onthat.
So he had a really hard timestopping in the middle of that
task, transitioning to the nextthing.
You told me to do this.
This is a very literal,concrete thing.
So his brain has a hard timedoing that.
So then, having theconversation with him, so, yeah,
it's hard for you to changegears so fast, right?
(41:28):
And he was like, yeah, I don'tlike doing that.
And I said, well, that is apart of how your brain works.
Because of the FASD, next timemaybe tell your boss.
Can I finish this first?
Try to have that conversation.
I have a hard time switchinggears.
And we've made sure that hisemployer, even though it's a
family employer, understands thesymptoms of FASD.
(41:50):
I've given documentation justso that they can take that into
consideration.
He's also a volunteerfirefighter, this son.
However, because of his sizeand because of other health
conditions, he can't do interiorfirefighting.
But he took an exteriorfirefighting course and had
accommodations for that becausehe had had an IEP.
He is another one that has slowprocessing pace.
(42:13):
He also requires things to beread to him, so he's very
hands-on and thrives in thatarea.
So most of the course washands-on, except for at the end
of each module there was amultiple choice test and so he
had accommodations.
The test questions would beread to him and he could give
his answer verbally, and thatworked out great for most of the
(42:36):
course.
But there was one module wherethe instructor was different and
he read the test questions andhe read them fast.
So it was a test question,multiple choice answer options
and then he'd be on to the nextquestion and my son hadn't
picked his answer yet and thenhe was like falling behind.
But he advocated for himselfbecause he came home very
(42:56):
frustrated and I said you have ahard time catching verbal
information.
That's part of FASD.
You can go back and ask forthem to give you that test over
and read the question slowernext time.
And he did, he advocated forhimself, they allowed him to
take it a second time and hepassed it because they
understood we have to just readit a little slower and give them
(43:17):
a little more time to answer.
So it's important that theyunderstand their symptoms and
they understand FASD, if theyhave it, so that they can
advocate for themselves whenthey get older.
So it just depends on the kidand their age.
I find the younger the kids are, the more we can normalize.
Talking about the brain,everybody's brain works
differently, everybody hasdifferent strengths and
(43:39):
everybody needs help indifferent ways.
But talking about the brain howthe brain works and then
talking about it in the sense ofsymptoms, your brain works this
way.
You're going to need extra helpwith this.
You're going to need this listto help you remember the steps.
Things like that, I think, canhelp our kids learn about
themselves and what help thatthey need, and to be able to
(44:01):
advocate for themselves even asthey get older.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
That's awesome.
I mean I love the equippingthat you're doing with your kids
and the empowering that you'redoing that you're still
explaining you know how theirbrain works.
You're explaining some of thelimitations or some of the
struggles that they may have,but you're empowering them to
(44:25):
advocate for themselves, to finda way to work with those things
, to still be able to accomplisha task.
So I mean I think that isreally amazing.
How do you this kind of goeshand in hand but especially as
kids are moving into teenage andadulthood, how do you help them
(44:47):
have their own voice, havetheir own opinion, make their
own choices?
But if they're developmentallyless than teenager adult,
mentally less than teenageradult, right, how do you balance
letting them have their voiceand stepping in when they need
it?
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Yeah, every kid is different and FASD is a spectrum
, right.
Not every kid is going topresent with every symptom and
at different stages you may seedifferent symptoms develop.
And it's been challenging,especially as they get older.
Our one son drives, the otherone may not drive.
And when he turned 16, peoplewere asking him oh, because
(45:30):
where we live, you can get alearner's permit to drive when
you're 16.
And people were asking him,much to my like.
I was trying to like no, no, no, don't ask them that you know.
And he would say to me oh,you're mean, you won't let me
get a driver's license.
And I said, well, okay, butfirst, in order to get a
driver's license, you have topass a written test.
And he was like oh really,because he was like not wanting
(45:53):
anything to do with it.
And then I said the other thingis is like where would you go if
you had a driver's license?
And he was like, hmm, texas,now we live in New York, so he
doesn't know anybody in Texas.
And so it's like, yeah, I don'tthink you're quite ready for
this driver's license thing yet.
Because that's one of thescariest things is they can't
(46:15):
necessarily make wise decisionsabout where to go.
That's safe.
Make wise decisions about whereto go, that's safe.
So when safety comes into playbecause this son can drive the
lawnmower, he can ride afour-wheeler, he can drive a
golf cart, he can drive thingsand do really well with that but
when he's riding in the carwith me going somewhere, he has
a lot of anxiety about the carin front of us and the car
(46:37):
coming up alongside of us.
And so, first of all, I'm noteven sure how he would do in
traffic, but being able to makea safe choice about where to go.
Our other son, who's thefirefighter, who does drive he
did in the very beginning we'vediscovered he went someplace
that was not safe for him to go,so we had to have a big
(46:57):
conversation about that and Ithink he over time got it.
But being able to just havethose conversations so that
they're, you know, giving themvoice.
Like we know you want to be avolunteer firefighter.
You know we support you in that.
We know that you want to likeright now that son wants to quit
(47:19):
his actual job and repair golfcarts.
So we had to explain you knowyou're so good at doing hands-on
things and repairing things andthat's a great side hustle, but
you can't quit your likeeveryday job.
To do that there's not enough.
You need health insurance, youneed to be able to pay bills.
You're not going to be able todo that, so this would be
(47:42):
something you could do on theside, but you're not going to
quit your day job.
So you know he just thoughtwell, I've, I've repaired two
golf carts, I have a businessnow and it's like that's not
really how this works.
So coming alongside and try toteach and mentor and and and
invite other people, like he'sgot an older brother who's a
great mentor that helps him atwork.
(48:04):
But it is challenging becauseour kids and what kids do none
of them like to be told what todo.
But I find, especially with myyoungest, he needs to be told
what to do throughout the daywith just basic daily tasks,
like it's time to brush yourteeth, it's time to go get
dressed, you need to weardeodorant.
And at 19, he'll say I don'tlike to brush my teeth.
(48:27):
I'm like, well, but we brushour teeth every day before we
leave the house, so he's more.
That's where he requires moreone-on-one and every kid is
different, right?
So he's requiring more.
Kids with FASD can haveanywhere from a low IQ to a very
high IQ, so it can be anywhere.
(48:48):
So one of mine has a low IQ,one has more of an average IQ.
So it's just.
Every kid is different.
Knowing where they're at,understanding what supports
they're going to need and givingthem voice and teaching them
about this so that they canadvocate for themselves is
really important going into thefuture.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
Sandra.
All of that is just invaluableinformation for parents to have
and to be able to research andto know that this is even a
thing for the majority of usthat we don't.
We're not, most of us are notresearching this and looking
into it.
So if parents want to learnmore, if they want to find you,
(49:32):
where can they?
Speaker 2 (49:32):
find you.
Oh, thanks so much.
So if you go to our website,which is justicefororphansnyorg,
we have a whole section on ourwebsite dedicated to our foster
and adoption resources, which mypodcast is the Adoption and
Foster Care Journey.
So you can find the podcast onall the major platforms.
(49:53):
We have social media also theAdoption and Foster Care Journey
and at our Justice for Orphanswebsite, there's a whole section
dedicated to the adoption andfoster care journey.
Very, very soon anyway, it'sgoing through some major
overhauls.
If you go to our website andjust look at training or FASD
resources, you'll find it allthere, but in the updated
(50:16):
website we have a whole sectionthat's adoption and foster care
journey, which includes thetraining that I do for foster
and adoptive parents andprofessionals as well, as we
have a support group called Hopefor the FASD Journey.
It's an online support groupfor parents of kiddos with FASD,
whether they're diagnosed ornot, and we have parents who
(50:37):
have kids as young as five.
Many of us have older kids.
It is faith-based, we pray witheach other, we encourage each
other and that's a great way tostay connected and really find
your tribe, because we know weneed adoptive and foster parents
, need each other and if,especially, you're parenting
kids who've been prenatallyexposed, it's next level crazy.
(50:58):
So we like really need eachother.
So that's on there as well asthe podcast, and you can also
reach out to me through thewebsite as well.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
And I will also say you guys, I'll put a link to
this but Sandra has written abook that's kind of told her
their journey through adoptionand you guys, I read this book
in like two and a half days.
Like I will say, sandra, likemy kids were not very happy with
me reading this book because Istayed up all night and was
super cranky the next day but Icould not put it down.
(51:29):
I mean, it was just so good theway that it's written and just,
I think, learning about howother people get into this space
and what their journey lookslike I think is always so
amazing.
It's amazing to see otherpeople that are walking the same
path that we are, and you're sohonest throughout the book.
(51:51):
I think it's really refreshing.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
Oh well, thank you.
So that book is my first bookis Orphans no More A Journey
Back to the Father.
So that is our adoption story,as well as what I learned about
our spiritual adoption aschildren of God through being an
adoptive parent.
And then I actually haveanother book coming out,
probably late fall, and it is adevotional for foster and
adoptive moms and it's calledSoul Care Saturday 52 Devotions
(52:19):
for Foster and Adoptive Moms.
So stay tuned to my socialmedia and our website for that,
because that'll be released thisfall.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
Awesome, I am super excited.
Well, sandra, thank you so muchfor sharing with us today and
being such a great resource forthe foster and adoptive
community.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
Oh, thanks so much, Nicole.
I appreciate the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
What a great conversation.
I'm so grateful for Sandra andthe wisdom that she brought
today.
Fasd is big and complex andhonestly it can feel very
overwhelming.
But knowledge is power.
When we understand what'sreally going on in our kids'
brains and bodies, we can tradefrustration for compassion and
reaction for connection.
(53:01):
That's the work.
If this episode stirredsomething in you, maybe gave you
some clarity or maybe evenbrought up some grief for you,
just know that you are not alone.
I see you.
You're doing hard work ofshowing up for your kids in ways
the world may never fullyunderstand, and that matters.
If this episode encouraged you,would you share it with someone
(53:23):
else who may need it?
And, if you haven't already, goahead and subscribe so you
don't miss what's coming up next.
We've got more powerfulconversations in the lineup this
month.
Let me pray over us as we close.
Father.
Thank you for every parentlistening right now.
You know the weight they carryand the love they pour out,
(53:44):
especially when it's not easyand when the path isn't clear.
Give them supernatural strengthand wisdom and peace.
Help them see their childthrough your eyes and remind
them that they are not alone,that you go before them, you are
behind them and you are notalone, that you go before them,
you are behind them and you areright beside them.
(54:04):
Fill their homes with grace andpatience and moments of joy,
even in the chaos.
We love you, lord.
We trust you In Jesus' name,amen, thank you.
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