January 23, 2025 • 34 mins
Discover how artificial intelligence is revolutionizing the workplace with our special guest, Vic Miles from Microsoft. Vic sheds light on how AI is automating routine tasks, paving the path for employees to engage in more meaningful work that fosters creativity and collaboration. Could this shift be the catalyst that draws employees back to the office for those invaluable face-to-face interactions? We explore this intriguing possibility, bringing historical patterns and current research to the forefront to address the initial resistance to change and highlight AI's potential to enhance employee engagement and drive organizational value.
We also untangle the complexities of steering effective change management strategies within organizations. Drawing from rich narratives and real-world examples, we reveal the essential ingredients for successful change adoption, from clear communication to understanding the "why" behind changes. We stress the importance of a strategic roadmap that leads everyone through the journey, especially in diverse environments like Walmart's international expansion. Through personal anecdotes and lessons learned, we offer actionable insights and strategies for navigating organizational change and leadership in an AI-driven world, ensuring your team is not only prepared but eager to embrace the future.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the 4 Bars podcast.
I'm Ken Leith and I'm PattiLeith.
We're your hosts for somecompelling dialogue, encouraging
our listeners to strengthentheir connections and build
strong communities, lifting eachother up and connecting in ways
that matter.
We named the podcast 4 Bars asa reference to how hard we work
to find a 4 Bars connection onour devices.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
And we wondered what could happen with relationships
if we worked as hard atconnecting.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Let's find out.
Welcome back, vic, and KenLeith is my co-host.
Today.
We're here with Vic Miles, whois with Microsoft.
He is the general manager forindustry strategy in the
Americas.
So, vic, welcome back.
If you didn't catch our lastepisode, vic talked about AI.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
It's fascinating and we kind of want to pick up there
to do that and where do theyreally truly connect change
(01:07):
management and AI?
A couple of things when wethink about that, moving forward
in our conversation too, is howis it impacting it?
You know that AI is.
You know companies arestruggling a little bit today of
do we bring people back intothe workplace or let them work
from home?
Is there a hybrid?
Does AI play a role in that andthat connectivity from your
perspective?
Speaker 3 (01:24):
I think that it certainly will play a role in
whether or not people, whetherthere's a draw for people to
want to come back to the office,so to speak, and I think that,
as we talked about in the firstepisode, is we remove that lower
20 or 30 percent of people'sroles, that, and maybe it's, you
(01:46):
know, doing expense accountsand that kind of thing.
Yes, we remove that.
It's going to free them up,right, and it's going to require
them to do higher order tasks,right, right, and those higher
order tasks are largely aboutcollaboration, right, and so not
working in a vacuum, becauseanything that can be done sort
of in a vacuum by oneself canlikely be done by an artificial
(02:08):
intelligence agent or air bot,yeah, and so I think that it'll
be a natural drive, so anorganic move back to the office,
because, in order to still addvalue, my value used to be
wrapped up in the things that Idid, yes.
Now my value is wrapped up inthe interconnected that I did.
Yes, now my value is wrapped upin the interconnectedness to
the rest of the company I love,and that's gonna, you're gonna
(02:29):
need to do that face to face andI love that thought and I love
the the impact that that reallycan have on connectivity.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
and, as I have been around a while, as I think about
the major technology changesthat have hit the market in the
years that I because I did notgrow up with a computer, so that
ages me a bit we have beenafraid of it since the first big
thing, right, what is thisgoing to do to our ability to
communicate?
(02:56):
And at the end of the day, it'salways made it better.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
It's always made it better.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
It's always made it better.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
I remember my daughter she's 24 now she had a
uh, an ipod, or actually it.
Back then I worked formicrosoft.
It was a zoom, uh-huh, a devicewhich, yeah, for music.
And then she got a phone and Isaid no, you know, you can put
your music on the phone.
She said no, I don't, I don'twant to do that you got the same
reaction I don't know this ismusic and this is the phone
(03:22):
right, even before all the apps.
Right, the phone is for callingmom and know if this is music
and this is the phone right,even before all the apps.
Right, the phone is for callingmom and dad and this is where
you know this is me in the spacethat I live in, and so little
things like that.
I think that hesitancy andwe're going to unpack that today
can be overcome with properchange management and adoption
management.
(03:43):
Maybe is the way to think aboutit, how to get people and I
know you guys do this, you youthink about the, the people side
of the business right.
How do people, how do theyinteract with the brand?
What is the engagement level?
There is this notion of uhengagement.
Um gartner recently uh produceda report that showed that
(04:03):
engagement will go up.
So employee engagement goes upwhen the mundane tasks go away.
So that's where I sort of buildthis perspective on you're
going to want to go back to theoffice.
You're going to, to some degree,need to go back to the office,
because that's where you createvalue.
Now, right, and it will takeaway some of the things that
perhaps you don't like to do.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah, and I think there's.
You know there's a lot ofdialogue now about whether or
not it's totally remote or it'shybrid or or it's all in.
You definitely do get betterdialogue, better collaboration
and better solutions in person,and that's really always been
the case.
I again years ago did mymaster's degree in industrial
(04:43):
psychology and my thesis was ananalysis of computer mediated
communication and what, and thatwas back when we were using
remote bulletin board system,like that's how archaic this was
.
But what we found then is stilltrue today computer generated
communications, whether that'san email or a text or a chat, it
(05:07):
does not solve problems in waysthat you can when you come
together and you talk.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Yes, this is why I like the podcast medium, me too,
and I do lots of long form.
It's pretty well the only sortof media that I consume.
Yeah, is I find you can relatea bit more, right, the video,
the message, comes across evenmore so than the written word,
right?
And so, uh, I used to always dowhite papers and I haven't done
(05:33):
a white paper in years nowbecause it feels like this is
more, uh, more impactful topeople.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
So I I tend to agree yeah, yeah, that's awesome,
that's awesome, that's awesome.
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah.
I was just going to kind ofbring up the concept of change,
that we talked about it a littlebit at the end of the last
podcast, but we want to reallydig deep into what change
management looks like, whatorganizations can do to help
their people change, and then Ialso really want to talk about
(06:02):
what can we as human beings doinside of our own way that we
embrace change to be moreeffective?
So let's start withorganizational change management
.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Yeah, I think that at Microsoft, I've had a chance to
sort of ride the wave oforganizational change.
Yeah, right, and in some casesI'm sort of in the know and
helping to orchestrate, andothers it is sort of forced upon
me and so, and it feelsdifferent both ways.
And so when change comes and italways does, right, so that's
(06:35):
the first thing is to helppeople understand that change is
going to be constant here theweather in Arkansas, I suppose
but it's going to be constanthere, so, but that's not a
problem, like, we need toembrace it and to talk about the
evolution, right of let peopleknow, and you just mentioned it,
right, we went from bulletinboard systems to, you know, the
(06:56):
worldwide web, and now look atus, right, and so there is
change and we get better witheach iteration of change, and so
we find that a slow, dripchange is better than no change,
no change, no change, okay, andthen a cliff, right.
So so, having leaders thinkabout building the muscle of
(07:18):
change, right, and there aresome, and you you work in this
space.
There are some components ofhow you get people to adopt, how
you, how you set theenvironment up so that they can
adopt it.
I don't know if you think aboutthose often or absolutely,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
We do a lot of change management and and it is a
matter of understanding um, whoneeds to know what in order to
embrace the change, and and thenequipping leaders to equip
their people to make that change.
And so every change managementplan that we develop is
comprehensive and has lots oftouch points and yet a
(07:54):
consistency of message as to howthe organization is going to
embrace it.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah, for every plan that an organization might want
to develop for growth, forexample, we'll create a
strategic roadmap and we'regoing to go implement it and it
can be a great plan.
But if people don't come alongon that journey with them and
then it's thrust upon themwithout any prior knowledge of,
hey, we're going to go on thisjourney, we find that there's
(08:21):
stagnation and they don't takeoff at the velocity of which
they thought they wanted to asan organization.
Um and you probably have seensome of that in your career um,
what does that look like whenpeople don't grasp it and say,
oh, get all enthusiastic aboutit and instead they just kind of
wait?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
um, it, and I'm sure some of my team might be
watching this as it publishes,and so they'll get a kick out of
it, but it it's very acute,right?
You say, what does it look like?
It's, it's I'm going to call itfrankly embarrassing when, uh,
from a company standpoint, froma cultural standpoint, to
implement change, come back in ayear and say so, how's it going
(08:58):
?
And people are saying, well, we, how's what going right?
We never actually did it.
Yeah, right, you didn't tell uswhy, you didn't tell us who or
when.
You said we were changing andthat's all we heard.
Right?
And here I have a very specificexample of a change that
occurred in two paths that weretaken.
(09:20):
One path took the anticipationof change approach.
That said, I need to get helpthe people who will be impacted
by the change and affected bythe change.
I need to get them tounderstand what the future looks
like and a curriculum.
So, actually thinking throughin the future world, you're
going to need to know these fivethings, and so you don't even
(09:44):
need to know fully how they, andso you I don't even need to,
you don't even need to knowfully how they interconnect, but
let's introduce you to thesefive things, these five concepts
, and get you to thinking aboutthose.
So then, when the changelaunches and you say, okay,
here's how they, here's howthose five things create value
for the company, you're ready togo on the on the other path.
It was I'm not sure this is agood idea, boy, that sounds
(10:06):
really hard.
Um, you know, how does thisaffect the work I was doing,
right?
So there's just all thesequestions.
None of the questions, thequestions, no answers.
And then time moves on and ayear later we're saying so how's
it going?
And you have one team here andone team I mean.
That's why I call it acute.
You can look at it and say, wow, how did we miss the gap in
(10:31):
acceptance and adoption?
And so my answer would be toanticipate the change.
Especially in publicly tradedcompanies, the change is always
a secret.
We're going to buy this brand,we're going to re-brand, we're
going to restructure, and sonobody says anything.
(10:54):
It's all hush, it's all hush.
And so the big bang almostnever works.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, it's that aha moment that doesn't take off, it
just falls flat.
You said a word that's a smallword that's so critical and
there are a lot of components tochange management that can
enable it or stall it.
But why?
Why is that little word?
That seems to be the thing thatpeople get stuck on.
Because we'll have a client.
(11:20):
I'll say, well, I went in and Iunveiled, here's where we're
going to go, because ourleadership team put this
together.
But within their message point,this is where we're going.
Hopefully it has what your roleis going to be in it.
But they never said why, andI'll give you an example where
it can go bad.
So recently we're working withan organization that is wanting
(11:44):
to hit some lofty goals, and wework predominantly with
companies who either are growingor readying themselves for
growth, and they put togethertheir plan and their mind of
what they were going to go do.
And change is an ever-emballingthing.
As you said, there's no longerchange as a destination.
It's a nonstop journey.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
It's a way of living.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Whether it's technology we've been talking
about that's driving a change,or the economy, something is
driving the change, but the why?
We had our team interview about80, some people within this
organization before we startedthis project with them, because
we always want to know reallywhat's going on and leadership
has their view of it, as theyshould.
(12:25):
But it's the frontline folks,all the way down to the
frontline folks, that areimpacted by change.
So as we spoke to these folksour team what we found is that
one thing was really botheringpeople.
They're being asked to changeagain.
They didn't feel they actuallyknew what the last change, uh,
provided and they're wanting tonow know why.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
But no one was using the word why why is a popular
word with three-year-olds and Ithink as we get older we still
wonder.
We just don't ask and and and.
Good change management startswith that.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
I guess, yeah, agree, uh, the why is is what people
need to buy in, and you mightthink, command and control style
they don't need to buy in.
Yes, right, but in largeorganizations or you know, when
you get above about 100 people,really, yes, you know, you have
people who are running a portionof your business, who feel
fairly involved, right, sort oflarge and in charge on this
(13:23):
topic.
Yeah, right, and so they're not.
They have sort of the.
They've given themselves theautonomy to not change.
If I don't understand the why,then I'm not going to do it.
Why are we going to jump out ofthe plane Again?
Is there something wrong withthe plane and so?
But if you tell them, yes, theplane's going down, so we need
to get back.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Then, yes, and what you said there is just so very
true, is that, um, when changehappens off frequently but it
doesn't really take off, so tospeak, meaning we're not really
seeing the results um, what wefind is there's a bunker
mentality and people kind of puttheir head down going.
You know, I'm not reallyembracing this, I don't really
know why we're doing it.
I'm just going to sit here andtechnology change.
(14:09):
For example, spreadsheet weutilize the term that it's
comfort food.
And so organizations come inyeah, we have this new
technology.
We want you to go.
It's going to be the best thingever.
And there are people, unlessthey have an understanding of
what's the technology, what'sthe value to the organization?
What's the value to me?
Am I going to lose my jobbecause of this new technology?
(14:33):
If they understand that thosethings are not going to be
impacting them negatively, thebig scary thing over their
shoulder goes away.
But until they know that andthat's going to be beneficial,
they're going to hold on totheir spreadsheet and they may
start to put their finger in thewater a little bit, but the
spreadsheets are still going tobe driving the business.
It's interesting.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
We're talking about change and then individuals, but
there are also groups, so thatperson could be enabled by a
person who says you know, Iprefer the spreadsheet anyway,
so just keep sending it that way.
Yes, agreed, right.
And so now we've got a littlefiefdom here that says this is
the way we do it.
I don't know what they told usto change, but is it working for
you.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
This is what we're going to do.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Yeah, so you have to understand that, as an
organizational leader, that it'snot one at a time.
You have these little groups,the collaboration groups, that
you need to change as well.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
One of the techniques we've used in change management
and this goes all the way backto when I was with Food Lion.
We changed the profit-sharingprogram, which was widely held
and at that point in time wasall company stock, and we went
to an Invesco-based fund and wewere sitting around trying to
(15:52):
figure out what the best courseof action would be on the change
management and someone fromInvesco asked us is there
anybody in your organizationthat informally strikes up
conversations about this topic?
And my answer was the truckdrivers.
And so we brought them in firstto answer all of their
(16:13):
questions.
We used that to structure theinformation we shared with
everyone else and set them outto sort of prime the pumps
before the message got out there.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
it was fantastic and it worked so well so you
anticipated it and and sort ofprime the pump with the debts
after many collaborationsessions that you know, we we
realized what a massive changethis was like we want.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
If, if two people sit in a room and try to figure out
all the things, we should tellpeople we're going to miss some
stuff.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Oh gosh, yes.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
So one of the other things that's really interesting
in change management is there'sa cycle that we go through as
humans and the first thing we dowhether we do it for 60 seconds
or 60 days is we resist, right,and then we get a little
curious, and then we explore,and then we get a little curious
, and then we explore, and thenwe make that change and we can
round that corner in a day, orwe can round that quarter in a
quarter, but while we're doingit the organization sees less
(17:18):
productivity, less engagement,and then, when people start
getting interested, it levelsback up, but it's still stalled.
It doesn't really change untilpeople start rounding the curve
to exploration and helpingothers do the same thing.
And so it's it.
Really.
There really is anorganizational component that's
heavily impacted by what's beingsaid in the trenches.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Yeah, I would put this in the category of of
diversity and inclusion, right,because some people need to,
they need different things,right?
And again, when, when you and Ifirst met, it's about
understanding yourself,understanding your peers.
How can you work together?
I mean, we've all, uh, many ofthe professional folks these
(17:58):
days have taken one version ofthe Berkman or the Myers-Briggs
or whatever, right?
And?
And so you learn that, oh, thisperson needs a minute.
I need to give them the ideaand then come back, set up
another meeting this person.
You need to give them the wholestory now, or else they they're
like you're holding somethingback from me, kind of thing,
(18:20):
right?
So they, they want to, so theywant to do that journey in a day
.
The other person, it's no lessthan a week, every single time.
So, knowing that, and so it'sfascinating the work that you do
to help people understandthemselves and then how they're
perceived.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
And leaders play such a large part in connecting the
change to each individual'sneeds and points of view and
helping to shift them, becausethat's really where that work
gets done.
And, to your point, what I needis not going to be what you
need, and so so we can puttogether the best communication
bandage ever, but I'm going tomiss half of it if I'm still
freaking out and, and you know,and some of it won't be what he
(18:59):
needs.
And the manager is the leaderis what is the person in the
driver's seat to be able toconnect those?
Speaker 3 (19:05):
yeah, it's funny.
You said managers and so you.
There's so many levels, right,so you have the, you have the
frontline worker and then theyget managed by someone.
So back to your truck driverexample if the manager's not
bought in, one of the chancesthat the, that the absolutely
their subordinates are going tobe bought in, yeah Right, it's
really low, right, and so justthis notion of change management
(19:27):
really is impactful In the techspace with AI, we're trying to
lead with the value of AI.
Right, and some of thehesitancy that we talked about
in the first episode was aboutwhy would people not adopt Right
in the first episode was aboutwhy would people not adopt, yeah
Right, and it is this why andthe what and what's it going to
(19:48):
do, like, you have to paint thepicture of the future, uh-huh,
right, and yet some people sayjust give me the first step,
yeah Right, so yeah, it'sconflict.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Have you ever had someone within the organization
that doesn't necessarily have atitle, but they are the person
that when the organization comesand says, yes, we're going to
make this change, people kind ofturn their head and they look
to that person and they're kindof what do you think?
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Yes, they exist in every organization.
In some it is the loudestperson, perhaps, or the most
tenured person, or you know, andI don't know.
You have people, connectors,yes, right, you have these folks
who, just everybody, seems tohave a relationship with Right,
right, Business or otherwise.
And it's that person, right,that you'd want to get out front
(20:39):
Absolutely and say and then thequestion would be and perhaps I
would pose this to you to howdo you identify the person?
Like if you're not in the group, because we would all see all
at once.
You say, okay, everybody writedown a number, we all have
numbers and my number's six.
And then who is a person thatyou look to?
And they all write down numberfour immediately, but who?
Speaker 2 (20:59):
else knows that, and we actually will ask the
organization that question doyou know who that person is?
Speaker 1 (21:06):
And then we'll ask the people who are doing the
work, Like who among you isreally influential.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
You'll get one or two people out of 10.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Yeah, you will, and what we like to do and people
listen to them and people wholisten to them can tell you who
they are.
Yes, and you want to bring themand the people who listen to
them can tell you who they are.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yes, and you want to bring them along on the journey
early and not necessarily,excuse me, that they have to be
making the decisions, but youwant to give them information so
they can start to think throughit themselves and give them
enough information so that theycan give you input backwards.
(21:43):
We actually find that whenorganizations start to then have
them go and start havingconversations, they're taking
away that big aha, scary moment,excuse me, to where people then
are going.
Okay, this person who I trust,who is our if you think about
kind of our influencer withinour organization, is saying this
could be a good thing and thenthey also can take things back
(22:04):
to the organization in a waythat says, well, here are some
concerns, and be a liaisonwithin that as part of their
influence.
We find that when organizationsutilize them for their talents
and what they're really viewedas, which is someone that people
trust, the people that aregoing to go through that feel
more comfortable with it andmore readily to adapt.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Yes, I think, about a recent example of sort of
managing change up, if you will.
So the company says we need tomake this change.
In one of the episodes in mypodcast, I interviewed the CEO
of Fasinal and he told a storyabout how, with their
(22:47):
implementation of AI, theyneeded to get the founder on
board the company founder, who'sjust so gently involved and so
he had written a book myprinciples for the company and
leadership, that sort of thing.
So they gave the book to the AI, right, so that is the data set
that it reasoned over.
(23:08):
And then they said, okay, sonow let's ask it questions.
What would the founder say?
And they just asked questionsand the answer came back and it
was always that's what I wouldhave said.
That's what I would have said.
And he said so, that's whatwe're doing, right, so now let's
feed it our our product catalog.
(23:28):
Yes, right, so we don't have tobe afraid the fact that that the
ai might not pick the rightproduct.
I need that person lookingthrough the catalog or searching
, you know, is it the one withthe seven pitch thread that I
want to do or not?
And so, no, the the AI canlearn and know all of that and
so now that sort of smoothed theskids.
(23:49):
Now you still have to implementit and perhaps even change
management becomes a journey.
Everybody has, every companyhas an HR department.
Does every company Mostcompanies now have compliance,
or what are the risk?
Risk, yeah, and so is there achange management?
Yeah.
Will we need it in the newfuture?
Speaker 1 (24:10):
And you know, in the IT space there's certifications
in change management for techimplementations, but there are
so many different types ofchange and so many different
ways of reacting to it that itreally is an ongoing effort and
probably has to have somecheckpoints.
Um, I I learned early in mycareer that people will take as
(24:32):
long to accept change as you getthem right, and so when you say
, hey, this has to be done in acertain period of time, um,
let's have the dialogue that weneed to get there by this time.
They make that movement morequickly.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Yes, that example that I shared earlier about the
two paths taken to change.
The most sort of regretfulpiece of it is the path that was
taken that didn't adopt.
They wanted to ask all the samequestions as in the beginning,
so it was just like we juststart over.
(25:08):
Yeah, okay, so we must gothrough this game to get to the
other side.
And so it was like, oh, wecould have, I mean, the
questions all had answered.
Right, the outcome is going tobe the same.
Now we're considerably delayed.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
I recognize this.
I was working on a change atthe time and we were three
months in and just really hadnot gotten to adoption.
I was frustrated and mytwo-year-old who is now 31, so
he hates when I tell the storyum, I was getting him ready to
go to school and and and Icalled him and found him under
the bed, literally hanging on tothe the, the little beam under
(25:45):
the bed, and I'm like honey,what's the matter?
He's like I'm changed classesand I don't want to go.
And it hit me like like that ishow we all react.
We just, you know, we're notable to say the same things or
hide under the bed, but we allhave that sense of fear when
faced with major change, and soit's so critical that we have an
(26:07):
opportunity to really thinkthrough it and really understand
how that's going to connectwith my needs.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah, you don't want to get run over by the change,
yeah, right, and so youmentioned to tell people that
there will come a time whereadoption is not optional, right,
right, and I think it'simperative that you set up an
environment like that.
Yes, so we're going to keep thespreadsheet.
The database that you get thespreadsheet data from is going
(26:36):
to remain as a safety net, butthe new report is the one that
we want you to use, and in timethat's going off On the 17th of
February it's going off and sothen you will have, when they
see that end of the road, theywill then start to ask all those
questions that they need to ask.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Right, right, yeah, absolutely, which is really,
again, it's just you want tohelp people to get there, to get
to that adoption point, towhere they feel very, very
comfortable with that.
One of the things that weutilize when we go in and we
work with companies is you havethis plan now and you've done
all due diligence and it's alldown and so everyone knows what
(27:14):
to do, but you don't have thatchange management plan and it's
all down and so everyone knowswhat to do, but you don't have
that change management plan.
So one of the things we'd liketo see for an organization to
really be able to executequickly with agility is to have
a corresponding change planwhere they identify who needs to
know.
How's that phased in?
When do they need to know?
What's the message point tothat group who needs to know
(27:37):
one-on-one because it's going toimpact them directly, not in
front of a group.
Those types of questions, thetiming of that all goes into
being either something thatpeople walk away going.
This was good, and again theyalso had their influencer
identified and working out infront of everything to be able
to get their people to go, andworking out in front of
(27:57):
everything to be able to gettheir people to go.
And again we see all kinds ofinteresting outcomes with change
and stuff.
Have you seen an example maybe,of where it went really well?
Speaker 3 (28:10):
You've seen it done really well with change.
I think that it's funny therough spots stick out a bit more
than the ones where it justwent.
Let me ponder a good one.
I think that when I was workingwith Walmart right, lots of
change there as well, in what Iwould call the early days not
(28:32):
quite the early early daysthere's a lot of international
expansion, what I would call theearly days, not quite the early
early days there's a lot ofinternational expansion, and one
of the things that is notunderstood always by the folks
in the field the further downyou go, whatever field looks
like is what it can mean to thecompany, and so when you share,
(28:56):
here's the why.
Yes, there's why we're doingthis.
This is critical for all of us,and so it's not my change, it's
not their change, it's ourchange.
We're going on this journey andyou would find people just
pouring themselves and I was oneof those people just pouring
themselves into making thechange work right.
So converting, you know, theSeiyu stores in Japan or
(29:21):
Seafrost stores in Mexico wassome of the hardest work I've
ever done.
Right, but we understood why,right, we understood that
failure or less than sort ofoptimal performance meant people
in a region don't get groceries.
Okay, okay, right, we're hereto serve these people.
(29:42):
So actually, the change isn'tKevin Turner, our CIO at the
time.
He used to say this is so, notabout you, right?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I remember Kevin.
I didn't see him saying that weeven had.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
You know, he said I put it on paper.
This is not about me, right?
So this and so, yes, if you cantake them out of it and say
we're doing it for the for thegreater good, we're actually
doing it for them, the them thatwe serve, yeah, the them that
pays our paychecks, that kind ofthing.
So I've seen that go reallywell when you rally around a
cause together, and it wasn't achange, it was almost a change
(30:18):
that even our executives had todo.
Yeah, right, and so they neededour.
So it was a request as opposedto a demand.
Okay, right, we need to convertthese stores.
I need your help to do it Right.
That's very different than theyall revealed.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
That's a very different approach and it's a
very welcoming kind of approach.
You know that when you say weneed you, yes, and to be a part
of that.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
I think change.
Change creates uncertainty, anduncertainty can lead to fear,
and fear can lead to a lack ofengagement, and so to rally
people around a common goal is agreat technique for helping
people to stay connected.
We're about out of time, but aswe move towards wrapping up
(31:07):
this compelling dialogue aboutchange, can you share some
thoughts about how leaders canrespond better to change
themselves and help their peoplethrough it as individuals?
Speaker 3 (31:18):
You know, I think I'll pick up where I left off,
not making it about yourself,right?
So, as a leader, understandthat I'm embarking on this
change journey.
Right, because it's and againthe journey might be a day right
Before it just feels normal,the new normal, right.
Right, it's kind of like the bea day right Before it just
(31:39):
feels normal, the new normal.
It's kind of like thepost-COVID period, right, we
didn't have time to think aboutwhat that was going to look like
.
We just came out into a newnormal, and so, first taking
yourself out of it and thenunderstanding and having empathy
for well, if it's bothering me,it's going to amplify down
Right, so it's bothering me, andI have no existential threat
(32:02):
related to this change.
That person who makes $11 anhour may very well see this as,
oh my gosh, this is the end.
Yes, right.
And so bringing that empathyinto it and saying, ok, so now
how do I and right there, you'realready starting in the right
place how do I help the team thebroad team might be thousands
(32:25):
of people, right, adopt thischange?
And so then that becomes yourgoal.
Make your goal getting otherson board versus ramming this
thing through, and making surethat the change actually happens
.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
And that involves getting yourself to a good place
.
It reminds me of the.
You know, put your oxygen maskon first before helping others.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Before we wrap up, one of the things for this
week's viewers I want to ask isagain tell us a little bit about
your podcast and where theycould find that.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Ah, yes, Conversations on Retail is the
name of the channel.
It's a YouTube-based podcastrun by a gentleman by the name
of Matt Pfeiffer, and so he'sgot several hosts on the program
, and I lead a podcast calledBeyond the Tech, where we talk
about the personalities, thetech, where we talk about the,
(33:22):
the personalities, the personasthat that drive tech, the
innovation in market, but arealso fascinating people.
What got them there?
We have we.
We talk about things like thishow did you get to the point
that you were taking on thisadoption of technology or
implementing a new, uh, way towork?
And so, yeah, I invite youraudience to come visit us at
Conversations on Retail.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
I've listened to a few episodes.
That's really why I reached outto you, because I saw the one
you referred to earlier.
I forget his name, but yeah, itwas one of your first ones, I
think.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
I'm still early, so we're still figuring it out.
So I'm learning today.
So you know, we're stillfiguring it out.
Yeah, I'm learning today.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
As are we trust me.
First off, we want to thank youagain for being here, taking
the time and sharing yourknowledge with our viewers and
with ourselves too, so it's veryuseful for us and for Patty and
I.
We just want to thank everyonewho does stop in and watch it.
If watch it.
If you have any questions,please put them.
(34:18):
Go to Four Bars podcast anddrop them in there.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
We'll be sure to answer those and thank you
everyone and join us next time.
Great to see you, Thanks, Bye.
The Four Bars podcast has beenbrought to you by Edges Inc.
A growth advisory firm based inBentonville, Arkansas.
I founded the company in 2001.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Edges promotes growth , people, companies and ideas.
Our team collaboration tool,called Interface Methods, is a
basis for teams to work togethermore collaboratively,
understand each other and acceptdifferences and address
challenges together.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
We also started a non-profit called Unform your
Bias.
We teach kids and their adultinfluencers how to utilize
storytelling as a means toreduce bias in the world.
We hope you'll check us out,subscribe to our podcast and
look at our website.
Welcome to the 4 Bars podcast.
I'm Ken Leith and I'm PattiLeith.
We're your hosts for somecompelling dialogue, encouraging
our listeners to strengthentheir connections and build
strong communities, lifting eachother up and connecting in ways
that matter.
We named the podcast 4 Bars asa reference to how hard we work
to find a 4 Bars connection onour devices.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
And we wondered what could happen with relationships
if we worked as hard atconnecting.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Let's find out.
Welcome back, vic, and KenLeith is my co-host.
Today.
We're here with Vic Miles, whois with Microsoft.
He is the general manager forindustry strategy in the
Americas.
So, vic, welcome back.
If you didn't catch our lastepisode, vic talked about AI.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
It's fascinating and we kind of want to pick up there
to do that and where do theyreally truly connect change
(01:07):
management and AI?
A couple of things when wethink about that, moving forward
in our conversation too, is howis it impacting it?
You know that AI is.
You know companies arestruggling a little bit today of
do we bring people back intothe workplace or let them work
from home?
Is there a hybrid?
Does AI play a role in that andthat connectivity from your
perspective?
Speaker 3 (01:24):
I think that it certainly will play a role in
whether or not people, whetherthere's a draw for people to
want to come back to the office,so to speak, and I think that,
as we talked about in the firstepisode, is we remove that lower
20 or 30 percent of people'sroles, that, and maybe it's, you
(01:46):
know, doing expense accountsand that kind of thing.
Yes, we remove that.
It's going to free them up,right, and it's going to require
them to do higher order tasks,right, right, and those higher
order tasks are largely aboutcollaboration, right, and so not
working in a vacuum, becauseanything that can be done sort
of in a vacuum by oneself canlikely be done by an artificial
(02:08):
intelligence agent or air bot,yeah, and so I think that it'll
be a natural drive, so anorganic move back to the office,
because, in order to still addvalue, my value used to be
wrapped up in the things that Idid, yes.
Now my value is wrapped up inthe interconnected that I did.
Yes, now my value is wrapped upin the interconnectedness to
the rest of the company I love,and that's gonna, you're gonna
(02:29):
need to do that face to face andI love that thought and I love
the the impact that that reallycan have on connectivity.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
and, as I have been around a while, as I think about
the major technology changesthat have hit the market in the
years that I because I did notgrow up with a computer, so that
ages me a bit we have beenafraid of it since the first big
thing, right, what is thisgoing to do to our ability to
communicate?
(02:56):
And at the end of the day, it'salways made it better.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
It's always made it better.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
It's always made it better.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
I remember my daughter she's 24 now she had a
uh, an ipod, or actually it.
Back then I worked formicrosoft.
It was a zoom, uh-huh, a devicewhich, yeah, for music.
And then she got a phone and Isaid no, you know, you can put
your music on the phone.
She said no, I don't, I don'twant to do that you got the same
reaction I don't know this ismusic and this is the phone
(03:22):
right, even before all the apps.
Right, the phone is for callingmom and know if this is music
and this is the phone right,even before all the apps.
Right, the phone is for callingmom and dad and this is where
you know this is me in the spacethat I live in, and so little
things like that.
I think that hesitancy andwe're going to unpack that today
can be overcome with properchange management and adoption
management.
(03:43):
Maybe is the way to think aboutit, how to get people and I
know you guys do this, you youthink about the, the people side
of the business right.
How do people, how do theyinteract with the brand?
What is the engagement level?
There is this notion of uhengagement.
Um gartner recently uh produceda report that showed that
(04:03):
engagement will go up.
So employee engagement goes upwhen the mundane tasks go away.
So that's where I sort of buildthis perspective on you're
going to want to go back to theoffice.
You're going to, to some degree,need to go back to the office,
because that's where you createvalue.
Now, right, and it will takeaway some of the things that
perhaps you don't like to do.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah, and I think there's.
You know there's a lot ofdialogue now about whether or
not it's totally remote or it'shybrid or or it's all in.
You definitely do get betterdialogue, better collaboration
and better solutions in person,and that's really always been
the case.
I again years ago did mymaster's degree in industrial
(04:43):
psychology and my thesis was ananalysis of computer mediated
communication and what, and thatwas back when we were using
remote bulletin board system,like that's how archaic this was
.
But what we found then is stilltrue today computer generated
communications, whether that'san email or a text or a chat, it
(05:07):
does not solve problems in waysthat you can when you come
together and you talk.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Yes, this is why I like the podcast medium, me too,
and I do lots of long form.
It's pretty well the only sortof media that I consume.
Yeah, is I find you can relatea bit more, right, the video,
the message, comes across evenmore so than the written word,
right?
And so, uh, I used to always dowhite papers and I haven't done
(05:33):
a white paper in years nowbecause it feels like this is
more, uh, more impactful topeople.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
So I I tend to agree yeah, yeah, that's awesome,
that's awesome, that's awesome.
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah.
I was just going to kind ofbring up the concept of change,
that we talked about it a littlebit at the end of the last
podcast, but we want to reallydig deep into what change
management looks like, whatorganizations can do to help
their people change, and then Ialso really want to talk about
(06:02):
what can we as human beings doinside of our own way that we
embrace change to be moreeffective?
So let's start withorganizational change management
.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Yeah, I think that at Microsoft, I've had a chance to
sort of ride the wave oforganizational change.
Yeah, right, and in some casesI'm sort of in the know and
helping to orchestrate, andothers it is sort of forced upon
me and so, and it feelsdifferent both ways.
And so when change comes and italways does, right, so that's
(06:35):
the first thing is to helppeople understand that change is
going to be constant here theweather in Arkansas, I suppose
but it's going to be constanthere, so, but that's not a
problem, like, we need toembrace it and to talk about the
evolution, right of let peopleknow, and you just mentioned it,
right, we went from bulletinboard systems to, you know, the
(06:56):
worldwide web, and now look atus, right, and so there is
change and we get better witheach iteration of change, and so
we find that a slow, dripchange is better than no change,
no change, no change, okay, andthen a cliff, right.
So so, having leaders thinkabout building the muscle of
(07:18):
change, right, and there aresome, and you you work in this
space.
There are some components ofhow you get people to adopt, how
you, how you set theenvironment up so that they can
adopt it.
I don't know if you think aboutthose often or absolutely,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
We do a lot of change management and and it is a
matter of understanding um, whoneeds to know what in order to
embrace the change, and and thenequipping leaders to equip
their people to make that change.
And so every change managementplan that we develop is
comprehensive and has lots oftouch points and yet a
(07:54):
consistency of message as to howthe organization is going to
embrace it.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah, for every plan that an organization might want
to develop for growth, forexample, we'll create a
strategic roadmap and we'regoing to go implement it and it
can be a great plan.
But if people don't come alongon that journey with them and
then it's thrust upon themwithout any prior knowledge of,
hey, we're going to go on thisjourney, we find that there's
(08:21):
stagnation and they don't takeoff at the velocity of which
they thought they wanted to asan organization.
Um and you probably have seensome of that in your career um,
what does that look like whenpeople don't grasp it and say,
oh, get all enthusiastic aboutit and instead they just kind of
wait?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
um, it, and I'm sure some of my team might be
watching this as it publishes,and so they'll get a kick out of
it, but it it's very acute,right?
You say, what does it look like?
It's, it's I'm going to call itfrankly embarrassing when, uh,
from a company standpoint, froma cultural standpoint, to
implement change, come back in ayear and say so, how's it going
(08:58):
?
And people are saying, well, we, how's what going right?
We never actually did it.
Yeah, right, you didn't tell uswhy, you didn't tell us who or
when.
You said we were changing andthat's all we heard.
Right?
And here I have a very specificexample of a change that
occurred in two paths that weretaken.
(09:20):
One path took the anticipationof change approach.
That said, I need to get helpthe people who will be impacted
by the change and affected bythe change.
I need to get them tounderstand what the future looks
like and a curriculum.
So, actually thinking throughin the future world, you're
going to need to know these fivethings, and so you don't even
(09:44):
need to know fully how they, andso you I don't even need to,
you don't even need to knowfully how they interconnect, but
let's introduce you to thesefive things, these five concepts
, and get you to thinking aboutthose.
So then, when the changelaunches and you say, okay,
here's how they, here's howthose five things create value
for the company, you're ready togo on the on the other path.
It was I'm not sure this is agood idea, boy, that sounds
(10:06):
really hard.
Um, you know, how does thisaffect the work I was doing,
right?
So there's just all thesequestions.
None of the questions, thequestions, no answers.
And then time moves on and ayear later we're saying so how's
it going?
And you have one team here andone team I mean.
That's why I call it acute.
You can look at it and say, wow, how did we miss the gap in
(10:31):
acceptance and adoption?
And so my answer would be toanticipate the change.
Especially in publicly tradedcompanies, the change is always
a secret.
We're going to buy this brand,we're going to re-brand, we're
going to restructure, and sonobody says anything.
(10:54):
It's all hush, it's all hush.
And so the big bang almostnever works.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, it's that aha moment that doesn't take off, it
just falls flat.
You said a word that's a smallword that's so critical and
there are a lot of components tochange management that can
enable it or stall it.
But why?
Why is that little word?
That seems to be the thing thatpeople get stuck on.
Because we'll have a client.
(11:20):
I'll say, well, I went in and Iunveiled, here's where we're
going to go, because ourleadership team put this
together.
But within their message point,this is where we're going.
Hopefully it has what your roleis going to be in it.
But they never said why, andI'll give you an example where
it can go bad.
So recently we're working withan organization that is wanting
(11:44):
to hit some lofty goals, and wework predominantly with
companies who either are growingor readying themselves for
growth, and they put togethertheir plan and their mind of
what they were going to go do.
And change is an ever-emballingthing.
As you said, there's no longerchange as a destination.
It's a nonstop journey.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
It's a way of living.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Whether it's technology we've been talking
about that's driving a change,or the economy, something is
driving the change, but the why?
We had our team interview about80, some people within this
organization before we startedthis project with them, because
we always want to know reallywhat's going on and leadership
has their view of it, as theyshould.
(12:25):
But it's the frontline folks,all the way down to the
frontline folks, that areimpacted by change.
So as we spoke to these folksour team what we found is that
one thing was really botheringpeople.
They're being asked to changeagain.
They didn't feel they actuallyknew what the last change, uh,
provided and they're wanting tonow know why.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
But no one was using the word why why is a popular
word with three-year-olds and Ithink as we get older we still
wonder.
We just don't ask and and and.
Good change management startswith that.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
I guess, yeah, agree, uh, the why is is what people
need to buy in, and you mightthink, command and control style
they don't need to buy in.
Yes, right, but in largeorganizations or you know, when
you get above about 100 people,really, yes, you know, you have
people who are running a portionof your business, who feel
fairly involved, right, sort oflarge and in charge on this
(13:23):
topic.
Yeah, right, and so they're not.
They have sort of the.
They've given themselves theautonomy to not change.
If I don't understand the why,then I'm not going to do it.
Why are we going to jump out ofthe plane Again?
Is there something wrong withthe plane and so?
But if you tell them, yes, theplane's going down, so we need
to get back.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Then, yes, and what you said there is just so very
true, is that, um, when changehappens off frequently but it
doesn't really take off, so tospeak, meaning we're not really
seeing the results um, what wefind is there's a bunker
mentality and people kind of puttheir head down going.
You know, I'm not reallyembracing this, I don't really
know why we're doing it.
I'm just going to sit here andtechnology change.
(14:09):
For example, spreadsheet weutilize the term that it's
comfort food.
And so organizations come inyeah, we have this new
technology.
We want you to go.
It's going to be the best thingever.
And there are people, unlessthey have an understanding of
what's the technology, what'sthe value to the organization?
What's the value to me?
Am I going to lose my jobbecause of this new technology?
(14:33):
If they understand that thosethings are not going to be
impacting them negatively, thebig scary thing over their
shoulder goes away.
But until they know that andthat's going to be beneficial,
they're going to hold on totheir spreadsheet and they may
start to put their finger in thewater a little bit, but the
spreadsheets are still going tobe driving the business.
It's interesting.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
We're talking about change and then individuals, but
there are also groups, so thatperson could be enabled by a
person who says you know, Iprefer the spreadsheet anyway,
so just keep sending it that way.
Yes, agreed, right.
And so now we've got a littlefiefdom here that says this is
the way we do it.
I don't know what they told usto change, but is it working for
you.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
This is what we're going to do.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Yeah, so you have to understand that, as an
organizational leader, that it'snot one at a time.
You have these little groups,the collaboration groups, that
you need to change as well.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
One of the techniques we've used in change management
and this goes all the way backto when I was with Food Lion.
We changed the profit-sharingprogram, which was widely held
and at that point in time wasall company stock, and we went
to an Invesco-based fund and wewere sitting around trying to
(15:52):
figure out what the best courseof action would be on the change
management and someone fromInvesco asked us is there
anybody in your organizationthat informally strikes up
conversations about this topic?
And my answer was the truckdrivers.
And so we brought them in firstto answer all of their
(16:13):
questions.
We used that to structure theinformation we shared with
everyone else and set them outto sort of prime the pumps
before the message got out there.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
it was fantastic and it worked so well so you
anticipated it and and sort ofprime the pump with the debts
after many collaborationsessions that you know, we we
realized what a massive changethis was like we want.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
If, if two people sit in a room and try to figure out
all the things, we should tellpeople we're going to miss some
stuff.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Oh gosh, yes.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
So one of the other things that's really interesting
in change management is there'sa cycle that we go through as
humans and the first thing we dowhether we do it for 60 seconds
or 60 days is we resist, right,and then we get a little
curious, and then we explore,and then we get a little curious
, and then we explore, and thenwe make that change and we can
round that corner in a day, orwe can round that quarter in a
quarter, but while we're doingit the organization sees less
(17:18):
productivity, less engagement,and then, when people start
getting interested, it levelsback up, but it's still stalled.
It doesn't really change untilpeople start rounding the curve
to exploration and helpingothers do the same thing.
And so it's it.
Really.
There really is anorganizational component that's
heavily impacted by what's beingsaid in the trenches.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Yeah, I would put this in the category of of
diversity and inclusion, right,because some people need to,
they need different things,right?
And again, when, when you and Ifirst met, it's about
understanding yourself,understanding your peers.
How can you work together?
I mean, we've all, uh, many ofthe professional folks these
(17:58):
days have taken one version ofthe Berkman or the Myers-Briggs
or whatever, right?
And?
And so you learn that, oh, thisperson needs a minute.
I need to give them the ideaand then come back, set up
another meeting this person.
You need to give them the wholestory now, or else they they're
like you're holding somethingback from me, kind of thing,
(18:20):
right?
So they, they want to, so theywant to do that journey in a day
.
The other person, it's no lessthan a week, every single time.
So, knowing that, and so it'sfascinating the work that you do
to help people understandthemselves and then how they're
perceived.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
And leaders play such a large part in connecting the
change to each individual'sneeds and points of view and
helping to shift them, becausethat's really where that work
gets done.
And, to your point, what I needis not going to be what you
need, and so so we can puttogether the best communication
bandage ever, but I'm going tomiss half of it if I'm still
freaking out and, and you know,and some of it won't be what he
(18:59):
needs.
And the manager is the leaderis what is the person in the
driver's seat to be able toconnect those?
Speaker 3 (19:05):
yeah, it's funny.
You said managers and so you.
There's so many levels, right,so you have the, you have the
frontline worker and then theyget managed by someone.
So back to your truck driverexample if the manager's not
bought in, one of the chancesthat the, that the absolutely
their subordinates are going tobe bought in, yeah Right, it's
really low, right, and so justthis notion of change management
(19:27):
really is impactful In the techspace with AI, we're trying to
lead with the value of AI.
Right, and some of thehesitancy that we talked about
in the first episode was aboutwhy would people not adopt Right
in the first episode was aboutwhy would people not adopt, yeah
Right, and it is this why andthe what and what's it going to
(19:48):
do, like, you have to paint thepicture of the future, uh-huh,
right, and yet some people sayjust give me the first step,
yeah Right, so yeah, it'sconflict.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Have you ever had someone within the organization
that doesn't necessarily have atitle, but they are the person
that when the organization comesand says, yes, we're going to
make this change, people kind ofturn their head and they look
to that person and they're kindof what do you think?
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Yes, they exist in every organization.
In some it is the loudestperson, perhaps, or the most
tenured person, or you know, andI don't know.
You have people, connectors,yes, right, you have these folks
who, just everybody, seems tohave a relationship with Right,
right, Business or otherwise.
And it's that person, right,that you'd want to get out front
(20:39):
Absolutely and say and then thequestion would be and perhaps I
would pose this to you to howdo you identify the person?
Like if you're not in the group, because we would all see all
at once.
You say, okay, everybody writedown a number, we all have
numbers and my number's six.
And then who is a person thatyou look to?
And they all write down numberfour immediately, but who?
Speaker 2 (20:59):
else knows that, and we actually will ask the
organization that question doyou know who that person is?
Speaker 1 (21:06):
And then we'll ask the people who are doing the
work, Like who among you isreally influential.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
You'll get one or two people out of 10.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Yeah, you will, and what we like to do and people
listen to them and people wholisten to them can tell you who
they are.
Yes, and you want to bring themand the people who listen to
them can tell you who they are.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yes, and you want to bring them along on the journey
early and not necessarily,excuse me, that they have to be
making the decisions, but youwant to give them information so
they can start to think throughit themselves and give them
enough information so that theycan give you input backwards.
(21:43):
We actually find that whenorganizations start to then have
them go and start havingconversations, they're taking
away that big aha, scary moment,excuse me, to where people then
are going.
Okay, this person who I trust,who is our if you think about
kind of our influencer withinour organization, is saying this
could be a good thing and thenthey also can take things back
(22:04):
to the organization in a waythat says, well, here are some
concerns, and be a liaisonwithin that as part of their
influence.
We find that when organizationsutilize them for their talents
and what they're really viewedas, which is someone that people
trust, the people that aregoing to go through that feel
more comfortable with it andmore readily to adapt.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Yes, I think, about a recent example of sort of
managing change up, if you will.
So the company says we need tomake this change.
In one of the episodes in mypodcast, I interviewed the CEO
of Fasinal and he told a storyabout how, with their
(22:47):
implementation of AI, theyneeded to get the founder on
board the company founder, who'sjust so gently involved and so
he had written a book myprinciples for the company and
leadership, that sort of thing.
So they gave the book to the AI, right, so that is the data set
that it reasoned over.
(23:08):
And then they said, okay, sonow let's ask it questions.
What would the founder say?
And they just asked questionsand the answer came back and it
was always that's what I wouldhave said.
That's what I would have said.
And he said so, that's whatwe're doing, right, so now let's
feed it our our product catalog.
(23:28):
Yes, right, so we don't have tobe afraid the fact that that the
ai might not pick the rightproduct.
I need that person lookingthrough the catalog or searching
, you know, is it the one withthe seven pitch thread that I
want to do or not?
And so, no, the the AI canlearn and know all of that and
so now that sort of smoothed theskids.
(23:49):
Now you still have to implementit and perhaps even change
management becomes a journey.
Everybody has, every companyhas an HR department.
Does every company Mostcompanies now have compliance,
or what are the risk?
Risk, yeah, and so is there achange management?
Yeah.
Will we need it in the newfuture?
Speaker 1 (24:10):
And you know, in the IT space there's certifications
in change management for techimplementations, but there are
so many different types ofchange and so many different
ways of reacting to it that itreally is an ongoing effort and
probably has to have somecheckpoints.
Um, I I learned early in mycareer that people will take as
(24:32):
long to accept change as you getthem right, and so when you say
, hey, this has to be done in acertain period of time, um,
let's have the dialogue that weneed to get there by this time.
They make that movement morequickly.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Yes, that example that I shared earlier about the
two paths taken to change.
The most sort of regretfulpiece of it is the path that was
taken that didn't adopt.
They wanted to ask all the samequestions as in the beginning,
so it was just like we juststart over.
(25:08):
Yeah, okay, so we must gothrough this game to get to the
other side.
And so it was like, oh, wecould have, I mean, the
questions all had answered.
Right, the outcome is going tobe the same.
Now we're considerably delayed.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
I recognize this.
I was working on a change atthe time and we were three
months in and just really hadnot gotten to adoption.
I was frustrated and mytwo-year-old who is now 31, so
he hates when I tell the storyum, I was getting him ready to
go to school and and and Icalled him and found him under
the bed, literally hanging on tothe the, the little beam under
(25:45):
the bed, and I'm like honey,what's the matter?
He's like I'm changed classesand I don't want to go.
And it hit me like like that ishow we all react.
We just, you know, we're notable to say the same things or
hide under the bed, but we allhave that sense of fear when
faced with major change, and soit's so critical that we have an
(26:07):
opportunity to really thinkthrough it and really understand
how that's going to connectwith my needs.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah, you don't want to get run over by the change,
yeah, right, and so youmentioned to tell people that
there will come a time whereadoption is not optional, right,
right, and I think it'simperative that you set up an
environment like that.
Yes, so we're going to keep thespreadsheet.
The database that you get thespreadsheet data from is going
(26:36):
to remain as a safety net, butthe new report is the one that
we want you to use, and in timethat's going off On the 17th of
February it's going off and sothen you will have, when they
see that end of the road, theywill then start to ask all those
questions that they need to ask.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Right, right, yeah, absolutely, which is really,
again, it's just you want tohelp people to get there, to get
to that adoption point, towhere they feel very, very
comfortable with that.
One of the things that weutilize when we go in and we
work with companies is you havethis plan now and you've done
all due diligence and it's alldown and so everyone knows what
(27:14):
to do, but you don't have thatchange management plan and it's
all down and so everyone knowswhat to do, but you don't have
that change management plan.
So one of the things we'd liketo see for an organization to
really be able to executequickly with agility is to have
a corresponding change planwhere they identify who needs to
know.
How's that phased in?
When do they need to know?
What's the message point tothat group who needs to know
(27:37):
one-on-one because it's going toimpact them directly, not in
front of a group.
Those types of questions, thetiming of that all goes into
being either something thatpeople walk away going.
This was good, and again theyalso had their influencer
identified and working out infront of everything to be able
to get their people to go, andworking out in front of
(27:57):
everything to be able to gettheir people to go.
And again we see all kinds ofinteresting outcomes with change
and stuff.
Have you seen an example maybe,of where it went really well?
Speaker 3 (28:10):
You've seen it done really well with change.
I think that it's funny therough spots stick out a bit more
than the ones where it justwent.
Let me ponder a good one.
I think that when I was workingwith Walmart right, lots of
change there as well, in what Iwould call the early days not
(28:32):
quite the early early daysthere's a lot of international
expansion, what I would call theearly days, not quite the early
early days there's a lot ofinternational expansion, and one
of the things that is notunderstood always by the folks
in the field the further downyou go, whatever field looks
like is what it can mean to thecompany, and so when you share,
(28:56):
here's the why.
Yes, there's why we're doingthis.
This is critical for all of us,and so it's not my change, it's
not their change, it's ourchange.
We're going on this journey andyou would find people just
pouring themselves and I was oneof those people just pouring
themselves into making thechange work right.
So converting, you know, theSeiyu stores in Japan or
(29:21):
Seafrost stores in Mexico wassome of the hardest work I've
ever done.
Right, but we understood why,right, we understood that
failure or less than sort ofoptimal performance meant people
in a region don't get groceries.
Okay, okay, right, we're hereto serve these people.
(29:42):
So actually, the change isn'tKevin Turner, our CIO at the
time.
He used to say this is so, notabout you, right?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I remember Kevin.
I didn't see him saying that weeven had.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
You know, he said I put it on paper.
This is not about me, right?
So this and so, yes, if you cantake them out of it and say
we're doing it for the for thegreater good, we're actually
doing it for them, the them thatwe serve, yeah, the them that
pays our paychecks, that kind ofthing.
So I've seen that go reallywell when you rally around a
cause together, and it wasn't achange, it was almost a change
(30:18):
that even our executives had todo.
Yeah, right, and so they neededour.
So it was a request as opposedto a demand.
Okay, right, we need to convertthese stores.
I need your help to do it Right.
That's very different than theyall revealed.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
That's a very different approach and it's a
very welcoming kind of approach.
You know that when you say weneed you, yes, and to be a part
of that.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
I think change.
Change creates uncertainty, anduncertainty can lead to fear,
and fear can lead to a lack ofengagement, and so to rally
people around a common goal is agreat technique for helping
people to stay connected.
We're about out of time, but aswe move towards wrapping up
(31:07):
this compelling dialogue aboutchange, can you share some
thoughts about how leaders canrespond better to change
themselves and help their peoplethrough it as individuals?
Speaker 3 (31:18):
You know, I think I'll pick up where I left off,
not making it about yourself,right?
So, as a leader, understandthat I'm embarking on this
change journey.
Right, because it's and againthe journey might be a day right
Before it just feels normal,the new normal, right.
Right, it's kind of like the bea day right Before it just
(31:39):
feels normal, the new normal.
It's kind of like thepost-COVID period, right, we
didn't have time to think aboutwhat that was going to look like
.
We just came out into a newnormal, and so, first taking
yourself out of it and thenunderstanding and having empathy
for well, if it's bothering me,it's going to amplify down
Right, so it's bothering me, andI have no existential threat
(32:02):
related to this change.
That person who makes $11 anhour may very well see this as,
oh my gosh, this is the end.
Yes, right.
And so bringing that empathyinto it and saying, ok, so now
how do I and right there, you'realready starting in the right
place how do I help the team thebroad team might be thousands
(32:25):
of people, right, adopt thischange?
And so then that becomes yourgoal.
Make your goal getting otherson board versus ramming this
thing through, and making surethat the change actually happens
.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
And that involves getting yourself to a good place
.
It reminds me of the.
You know, put your oxygen maskon first before helping others.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Before we wrap up, one of the things for this
week's viewers I want to ask isagain tell us a little bit about
your podcast and where theycould find that.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Ah, yes, Conversations on Retail is the
name of the channel.
It's a YouTube-based podcastrun by a gentleman by the name
of Matt Pfeiffer, and so he'sgot several hosts on the program
, and I lead a podcast calledBeyond the Tech, where we talk
about the personalities, thetech, where we talk about the,
(33:22):
the personalities, the personasthat that drive tech, the
innovation in market, but arealso fascinating people.
What got them there?
We have we.
We talk about things like thishow did you get to the point
that you were taking on thisadoption of technology or
implementing a new, uh, way towork?
And so, yeah, I invite youraudience to come visit us at
Conversations on Retail.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
I've listened to a few episodes.
That's really why I reached outto you, because I saw the one
you referred to earlier.
I forget his name, but yeah, itwas one of your first ones, I
think.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
I'm still early, so we're still figuring it out.
So I'm learning today.
So you know, we're stillfiguring it out.
Yeah, I'm learning today.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
As are we trust me.
First off, we want to thank youagain for being here, taking
the time and sharing yourknowledge with our viewers and
with ourselves too, so it's veryuseful for us and for Patty and
I.
We just want to thank everyonewho does stop in and watch it.
If watch it.
If you have any questions,please put them.
(34:18):
Go to Four Bars podcast anddrop them in there.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
We'll be sure to answer those and thank you
everyone and join us next time.
Great to see you, Thanks, Bye.
The Four Bars podcast has beenbrought to you by Edges Inc.
A growth advisory firm based inBentonville, Arkansas.
I founded the company in 2001.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Edges promotes growth , people, companies and ideas.
Our team collaboration tool,called Interface Methods, is a
basis for teams to work togethermore collaboratively,
understand each other and acceptdifferences and address
challenges together.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
We also started a non-profit called Unform your
Bias.
We teach kids and their adultinfluencers how to utilize
storytelling as a means toreduce bias in the world.
We hope you'll check us out,subscribe to our podcast and
look at our website.
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