August 7, 2025 • 43 mins
What happens when you bring together art, architecture, and landscape design with a clear mission to "create places people love"? The answer lies in Northwest Arkansas's remarkable transformation from a collection of small towns to a vibrant urban landscape that draws visitors and new residents from across the country.
Jessica Hester, CEO and principal architect at Verdant Studio, along with Dayton Castleman, their director of creative placemaking, take us behind the scenes of their innovative work that's helping shape a region experiencing unprecedented growth. While celebrating their firm's upcoming 10-year anniversary, they explain how creative placemaking serves as a powerful tool for connecting communities and establishing authentic identities in spaces that might otherwise lack personality.
The conversation offers fascinating insights into the unique dynamics of Northwest Arkansas's development compared to traditional urban revitalization. Unlike typical gentrification patterns where artists help revitalize blighted areas, Northwest Arkansas is experiencing true urbanization—building cities where there simply weren't cities before. With approximately 32 new residents arriving daily, the challenges of infrastructure, transportation, and maintaining community character become increasingly complex.
Verdant's approach prioritizes density over sprawl, mixed-use developments over isolated residential areas, and adaptive reuse of historic structures whenever possible. Their work demonstrates how thoughtful design can address practical needs while simultaneously creating the "cool vibe" that distinguishes Northwest Arkansas from other rapidly growing regions.
Whether you're interested in urban planning, community development, or the intersection of art and architecture, this episode offers valuable perspectives on building spaces that genuinely connect people. As Dayton reminds us, "Intentionality can cost a million dollars, or it can cost a hundred dollars"—suggesting that communities of any size and budget can benefit from the principles of creative placemaking. Subscribe now to hear more conversations about strengthening connections and building vibrant communities.
Follow and stay connected:
Website: fourbarspodcast.com
YouTube: youtube.com/@FourBarsPodcast
Instagram: @edges_Inc
Facebook: EDGES Inc.
LinkedIn: EDGES Inc.
Never miss an update—follow, subscribe, and join the conversation!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the 4.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Bars Podcast.
I'm Ken Leith and I'm PattiLeith.
We're your hosts for somecompelling dialogue, encouraging
our listeners to strengthentheir connections and build
strong communities, lifting eachother up and connecting in ways
that matter.
We named the podcast 4 Bars asa reference to how hard we work
to find a 4 Bars connection onour devices.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
And we wondered what could happen with relationships
if we worked as hard atconnecting.
Let's find out.
Welcome to Four Bars Podcast.
I'm one of your hosts, Ken Lee.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
And I'm co-host.
Patty Leith, welcome, it'sgreat to have you here.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
So we are joined today by Jessica Hester, who is
the CEO and principal architectat Verdant Studio, along with
Dayton Castleman, who's directorof creative placemaking and
artist lead.
Welcome to Four Bars, thanks.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Thank you, welcome.
It's great to have you here.
Yeah, great to be here, thankyou.
Well, we are excited to hearabout what Verdant Studio has
been doing in the area, in theregion, and I think you also are
setting some great standardsfor other communities to take a
look at.
So we're really excited,jessica, I'll start with you.
(01:08):
What was your inspiration tostart Verdant and can you tell
us about it?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Yeah, of course.
So I started Verdant Studio 10years ago in five days.
So we are almost on our 10 yearbirthday.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
That's fantastic.
That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Yeah, and I started it a girl on a laptop on my
couch and dining room tablebefore.
That was cool and grew it overthe years to become what it is
today and we've had a variety ofamazing things happen and some
really big challenges that havehappened, but everything has
(01:45):
just created this team that isso synergistic and really
dedicated to creating placespeople love.
That is our mission in thisworld is creating places people
love, and I do that with thehelp of Dayton and an incredible
design team.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, fantastic, fantastic.
Can you describe the servicesthat you provide?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Yeah, of course.
So, unlike a typicalarchitecture firm that just
delivers blueprints, at the endwe do that we also.
So we call that our kind ofcapital, a architecture
deliverables.
But we also have Dayton on ourteam doing creative placemaking,
and I'm actually going to letDayton talk about the ins and
outs of all the services he does, because there's a wide breadth
(02:31):
there.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Can you tell us about what creative placemaking is?
Some of our viewers may notknow.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
It's something that I only discovered the terminology
of creative placemaking, a fewyears ago, and it was in my
effort to reconcile mybackground as an artist, but an
artist that has been focused onartwork in public spaces for
about 25 years and where thatintersects with the architecture
(03:02):
engineering, construction world, with the architecture
engineering, construction world,and so the term placemaking, or
creative placemaking, is onethat's used to describe, as I've
come to understand it, theintersection of landscape,
whether that's landscape design,whether that's landscape
(03:22):
engineering, architecture, andthe creative arts.
So at that point, I think iswhere is how I understand
creative place making?
And I I think of it at thatintersection?
Because in order for effectiveplace making to take place, I
(03:45):
think that the the architecturehas to be mindful of what's
going on related to the art orrelated to landscape.
Landscape needs to be mindfulof the others, and then even the
artwork and the way that itmight um, shape or um or give uh
identity to the rest of it hasto be mindful of what the
(04:05):
architecture and the landscapeis doing so.
They create an interrelatedfield of influences.
Creative placemaking is a wayof describing when.
If in this three-way dance,when art takes the lead, okay,
and there are placemaking.
(04:26):
There are examples ofplacemaking where you could say
that architecture's taken thelead and making this place a
place that people want tocongregate or that they feel a
sense of ownership over oridentify with, and there are
instances where the landscapearchitect or, you know, engineer
(04:46):
is the one who has is thatdiscipline, that's kind of taken
the lead in how those interplaymy background's in visual art
and sculpture, and so naturallyI gravitate toward that art
taking the lead oftentimes, orwhen, when there's an
opportunity for that to happen,um, so uh so as a three-way
(05:13):
dance, it's really acollaborative integration of
ideas.
Every time, yeah, in the placetogether how exciting it is.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
The way that I like to tell people about it is we
make places cool yeah, we canall get that yeah that's amazing
here in northwest arkansas.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
I think that's the people who come visit.
That's one of the things youhear is it's a cool vibe within
the region.
Yeah and uh, you can't go veryfar around here without seeing
artwork integrated into somewhat, looking at least from outside
not being an expert in thatseemingly seamlessly interwoven
within the, whether it'sarchitecture or just, uh, parks,
(05:52):
whatever it may be, even thebuildings, yeah, for sure the,
the real estate development thatled the way in um.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
I think creating the momentum that you're describing
for everything to be, for withinevery dimension of the building
of the community, for artworkto be carefully considered is
Crystal Bridges as the firstreal, major, visible investment
(06:22):
that literally made Bentonvillea place that people wanted to be
in a way that they never hadbefore.
So all of a sudden, you haveimmediately a regional and
national tourism draw overnightIn late 2011 into 2012.
(06:42):
So with that case study or thatprecedent, you know taking the
lead.
I think what it's done is it'ssort of um created an
expectation and a type ofreverberation that causes
everyone else that wants tocreate interesting places to
(07:03):
follow suit yeah, no, then thatthat makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Um, I think timing, because you mentioned you're
coming up on your 10-yearanniversary.
I think last year crystalbridges just had their 10-year
anniversary, so your timing waspretty.
Last year we've been 13 years.
Yeah, oh actually 13.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Okay, but it's our time flies, that's okay I can
remember walking in there in 12for their opening.
They opened late in 12.
It was uh, 11, 11, 11, was it11?
Speaker 4 (07:29):
yeah it was november of 11, but a lot of people saw
it around january of 2012because, hey, there's holidays.
So yeah I think the first majorum influx of visitors was
around the holidays in 2011,2012.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
So and I knew well, I knew I used to run those trails
back behind where that yeahwhere they were building.
I knew then that it was goingto transform, yeah, this
community.
But I knew when I walked inthat it was like this is
sticking around and what hastranspired in the 13 years since
has been just really afascinating um evolution of the
(08:08):
prevalence of art in many forms,right.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
So, yeah, it's been really fun to see and it's been
very visible as it's occurredsome of my first experiences
with art and public spaces innorthwest Arkansas were coming
from the architecture side,because oftentimes architects
and as Jessica knows, there's apremium to be had with,
(08:36):
especially when the client hasart in their scope with having
someone to think critically andcarefully and excellently about
that.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yeah, it's been a real joy to watch not only the
influence of Virta and theirarchitecture and design
interiors team deploy incredibleprojects across the region and
nationally, but to see whatDayton has done, not just on our
projects but other otherarchitecture projects across the
(09:08):
region and nationally.
He the legacy that's being leftbehind is a really it's a real
privilege to be a part of that,and not just for Dayton's sake,
but when you talk to peopleabout the vine which is the
metal awning around 8th StreetMarket, or the Arrow in downtown
Bentonville, people know whatthose things are.
They have memories andexperiences around those pieces
(09:31):
of art that Dayton has createdand deployed and so it's just
really great to be a part ofthat story for them.
It's fascinating, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
And, as I think about it, and we had a conversation
not long ago and I thought aboutplaces where I've been where
they kind of like went through aprocess of revitalization.
We talked a little bit aboutthe fact that there was art and
artists who came in andincredible culinary young people
bringing in culinary and musicand shifting kind of
(10:01):
revitalizing.
Is that kind of a recipe thatyou see?
Or how does that happen?
Because it did, as I think,back now to where the square
used to be kind of shut down at5 o'clock years ago 18 years or
so many years ago when I gothere, and now it's full of life
all the time.
I have a lot to say on that.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
I know you do.
I know you do because you'reone of the artists.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
I want to give you the first no, but specifically
related to that idea of theartist's role.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
The artist's role in the middle of all of it.
It is a critical role.
I think I will say this beforeyou jump into your story, which
is we are privileged inNorthwest Arkansas to be able to
have incredible quality of lifethat is being subsidized and
influenced beyond what thetypical kind of gentrification
and growth pattern would be, andso I think we get to live in.
(10:59):
You know, the nickname forNorthwest Arkansas is Oz, and
there's a lot.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
there's a reason for that.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
It is a glorious place to exist and I think we
all get we all get to benefitfrom from that investment.
I think if you're looking atcities beyond Northwest Arkansas
that are more like a moretypical growth pattern, it is
often and Dayton will talk aboutthis, but it is often the
artists it is.
It is the people whoton willtalk about this, but it is often
the artist it is.
It is the people who arewilling to get creative put in
(11:28):
the work, come up with somesolution that's crazy and out of
the box and they really get theenergy back into spaces and
that didn't have it before.
Um, there's just so much gritin that and I think a lot of
gentrification requires grit.
That's well said.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
However, I don't think of Northwest Arkansas in
terms of revitalization.
I agree, and I understand theway, that we do have these kind
of legacy older downtowns whichhave older architecture, older
infrastructure.
They bear the signs of a lot oflarger urban area downtown, so
(12:11):
on and so forth but you don'thave the blight in the same way
that you see in major urbancenters.
But there's just not enoughmoney to keep up with everything
that needs to be kept up with.
What you do have in northwestArkansas is just good,
old-fashioned urbanization.
In other words, we're buildinga city where there really wasn't
a city before.
(12:32):
Now there are cities, but we'retalking about what people from
cities don't refer to as cities.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Right.
Speaker 4 (12:39):
These are quaint little small towns.
They've got a square with a fewhistoric buildings and that's
cute, but it's not a city.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Let's be real.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
We're really actually combining these nodes that the
smaller cities represent intothis large metro urban area.
Each city retains its uniquecharacter and its sovereignty,
what it's allowed to mess withand not mess with, but, um, but
(13:09):
overall, you just have a lot offarmland that's now turning into
urban area and filling in thosegaps and we have, um, the uh,
predictable resistance to thatchange of landscape, which I
understand.
It was that possibility that acity might grow up here.
(13:32):
That brought me here.
So I'm on the other side of thecoin, which just like, yeah,
build, build, let's make, let'sturn it into a city, which is
part of the fun of being here.
But, um, so, because I don'tthink it's revitalization,
because, because I think it'surbanization, I think some of
the dynamics that are present,with projects that are taking
(13:57):
what are areas that may have atone point had their day in the
sun and are now, um, on theirheels, bringing those series
back, I don't see a lot of that.
What I see is just peoplegetting to think brand new about
what it would be like to builda world-class museum for example
(14:17):
yeah, which is why crystalbridges what was it?
uh, I can't remember thepublication they put out an
article and the title of thearticle was is crystal bridges
the most woke museum in america?
And it's because they had anopportunity, starting in 2011,
to create a museum that thoughtdifferently about the way
(14:40):
museums might operate and thatwas being recognized.
So the whole region reflectsthat same kind of we get to make
this up and we get to maybe doit ideally or do it differently.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah, yeah, which is fascinating yeah, it really has
been neat to to be a part of it.
Can you speak a little bit tothe the role that that art and
creative placemaking lays in acommunity and how that lifts up
the community?
Speaker 4 (15:10):
the first thing that needs to happen in a community
is people need to be able to besheltered and fed and safe, and
that's a rule of architectureRight, and of engineering and of
landscape and of communities.
So I don't want to aggrandizeart because it adds a particular
(15:31):
and interesting dimension to it, without saying that the
fundamental need of anycommunity is good architecture,
good infrastructure, goodplanning, et cetera, et cetera,
good landscaping, drainage,utilities that's what
communities really, really need.
(15:52):
What I've enjoyed about art isits unique ability to, in poetic
ways, to tease out the um, thepersonality or the character of
the history, and its unique waysof communities.
(16:13):
Yeah, um, much in the way that,like, our hearts have to keep
beating and our lungs have tokeep working for us to be
upright and having thisconversation, um, but the things
that we would describe thatmake us up or that make us
unique or important asindividuals are not that I have
(16:35):
a working heartbeat and aworking brain, and lungs work.
It's, there's.
There's an intangible dimensionto that.
You see some of it, I describedsome of it, but there's
something intangible dimensionto that.
You see some of it, I describesome of it, but there's
something else that makes me,and I think art has a way of, in
the spaces between landscapeand architecture, the connective
(16:57):
tissue, to elucidate thosekinds of things Right.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Okay, to elucidate those kinds of things Right okay
, and we've had a running lookat what is community as we have
been involved in this podcastand it really not to
oversimplify, but it reallycomes down to people, places and
activities.
Right, and you're bringing inthe place part of it for the
(17:21):
people to come together.
Right, and you're bringing inthe place part of it for the
people to come together.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Right, yeah, right.
One way that we think aboutplacemaking other than making
places cool is that it embeds asense of authenticity in a place
that may otherwise have nopersonality.
It may have no kind of zhuzhabout it until we get involved
(17:54):
and we start to deploy bits andpieces that give it its
uniqueness and interest, andthose are ways to engage the
community too.
So those are all intentionaldeployments to give not only
just moments of joy, becausesome of our art is just about
experiencing the beauty of it,but sometimes it's about
experiencing being part ofcreating it.
(18:14):
We do projects where we ask thecommunity to come and
participate with various piecesof deploying the art, especially
if it's a temporary piece, andthat's a great way to bring
people together, and art isuniquely placed in the world to
bring people together in acompletely unbiased and pure way
(18:36):
that a lot of other things justcan't do.
Yeah, yeah, very very cool yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
And, as we're talking about the different buildings,
you talk about crystal bridgesand one of the things I've
really recently what we've hadis also the heartland hold
health institute is open andthey've invited people in and so
now you've got the beauty ofcrystal bridges with a, you know
, an incredible architecture.
To your point is and for thosewho've never been here, it's
located down in a low area,partially, I would imagine,
(19:06):
because it's health protectedagainst the weather, hopefully
the way it is I think it wasintentionally set there because
of its relationship to thatstream and, generally speaking,
that holler real estate isworthless because it's so
difficult to build them.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
It's very, very, very difficult to build things and
holler with the live streamthrough it?
Yeah, stream going through,because everyone has a stream
going yes it is literally theproduct of erosion and you want
to build in that field oferosion?
Go for it listen um, but it'svery challenging and very
expensive to do well, so I thinkthat has more to do with it.
(19:45):
It's like you could buy up allthe cheap, worthless holler land
for nothing.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
As long as you have the money on the back end.
Speaker 4 (19:55):
Well, eventually, but for a long time it's not worth
anything Like there's walkingtrails.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
You're saving on the front end and spending it on the
back end and finishing, so tospeak.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Yeah, but I don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I think it has a lot to do with just that, you do
have this beautiful and then,within you know, a couple
hundred feet, you've got the newHeartland Whole Health
Institute, which is incrediblebecause it's art and they're
going to have what I read theother day is probably going to
be one of the largest greenroofs in the country?
Well, that's the Alice VaughanSchool of Medicine.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Yes, From an architecture perspective, both
of those buildings areincredible pieces of
architecture and art themselves.
The architect that designed thedesign crystal bridges won the
AIA gold medal a few years afterhe completed that project,
which is one of the highestawards in our field and
(20:49):
well-deserved.
It's an incredible piece ofarchitecture.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
He also did, I think, the Kansas City Ballet.
Yeah, his portfolio isextensive.
Like the buildings, you canwalk in and know that he did it.
They have a personality oftheir own.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
When I first got here again, none of this was really
here at that point.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
I didn't know it was coming in.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
But one thing I did notice was there was art and I
never went and I guess I couldsay I was a little closed-minded
on this.
When I got here, one of theearly things, patty asked me she
goes would you like to go tothe craft fair?
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Oh, which was?
That's a huge part of ourculture and I didn't realize
that.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
I was like no, thank you, I'm going to go out on my
bicycle instead and cycle.
But having come to then, itjust kind of was like it didn't
go away and it's still here andpeople all over.
I found to be able to go to thecrafts, but they bring their
own art.
Our farmer's markets have allthat.
It plays a big role here,doesn't it?
(21:48):
From your perspective?
Speaker 3 (21:50):
It definitely does.
The craft fairs in northwestArkansas are some of the most
attended craft fairs in thecountry.
They are.
People travel from all over thecountry to come to them, and
Dane can tell you why.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Yeah well, I mean, I think my arrival in Northwest
Arkansas was definitely due topaying attention to the sort of
rarefied international artconversation that Crystal
Bridges represents.
But it's important to rememberthat Crystal Bridges didn't
bring art to Northwest Arkansas,that the arts and crafts in
particular, especially withfunctional pottery, um, glass
(22:28):
and other forms uh, poor peoplelike wood have existed here for
very long time now as most artsdo.
When you're talking aboutgenerally poor people making art
, they were, they skewed towardthe functional, and so, um,
sometimes the functional artsand crafts get um, are you know,
(22:52):
people.
I think their perception isthat they take a back seat to um
, the uh, the ivory tower artthat crystal Bridges represents.
But the community that makesthose things and that brought
that up has always been here,and that's another interesting
dimension that you have tonavigate and be cognizant of.
(23:15):
In fact, a great example ofthat is the architecture of the
Whole Health Institute, whichincorporates the only term.
I've heard it referred to asgiraffe stone.
Okay, there's a giraffe stone,which is a type of stone work
that you see occasionally in um,arkansas.
(23:37):
I've seen it just almanila'sparticular way of building a
wall with stone that is somewhatlike almost hexagonal in the
way that the stones are puttogether.
Maybe they're stackedvertically rather than
horizontally, and so it createsa very distinct pattern, and
(23:58):
that is a like Ozark, vernaculartype of architecture which was
developed because it waspractical for some reason.
I don't know the whole historyof it, but you'll see it out in
the woods in Arkansas.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, now you see it.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
Now they mention it Now, you see it, it was adapted
to the facade of the stoneworkof the whole Elk Institute.
Wow, that's fascinating, thatintersection of that indigenous
kind of arts, crafty sort ofcraftsmanship, and the
intersection of that with, like,the world-class stuff that
(24:33):
crystal bridge represents I liketo how the work that you're
doing is supporting the urbanurbanization that's taking place
here you introduced me to urbanland institute, and so I
thought you'd be particularlysuited to talk about that from
(24:56):
um perspective that rememberswhen like pinnacle was was cow
feed.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
I don't remember.
I do remember that.
I say I don't remember whengennacle was a cow feed.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
I do.
Yeah, I think we've touched abit on like the difference
between what we've experiencedversus like a true
gentrification, like coming inafter a massive flight and
blight, and things like that.
What we're experiencing is, asa metro region, is a massive
(25:26):
amount of sprawl and there are alot of challenges with sprawl.
One of the biggest ones we'regoing to we are experiencing now
and will continue to experience, is the upkeep, maintenance and
expansion of utilities, andit's an enormous challenge for
Northwest Arkansas.
It's not the sexy part of whatwe do and I think it's really
(25:49):
important as we continue tothink about placemaking, as we
continue, as a region, to thinkabout growth, to prioritize
density, to prioritize infill,to prioritize spaces that bring
communities together instead ofcreate more distance apart from
one another and then just putmore strain on our taxes and
(26:12):
infrastructure.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
Yeah, yeah, when urbanizing, to be able to
utilize the lessons that we'velearned from the negative
aspects of suburbanization andthe just kind of continual
movement outward from the citycenter and isolation, ultimately
(26:34):
, from the city center as aresult um, I hope that northwest
arkansas and I know there are alot of people working and
making concern effort to ensurethat this happens is that we are
planning right now to preventthat from happening Correct,
correct, correct.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Well, and as an architecture firm, we prioritize
in full projects.
We prioritize projects that aregoing to put less burden on our
systems in our city and providecommunity space for the people
that we serve and our clients.
Doesn't mean we don't do someof the other stuff.
We'd absolutely do.
But, whenever we can.
We're going to take an oldbuilding like our office, which
(27:14):
was originally the milk plantfor the city of Rogers, designed
125 years ago by Carnation, andwe're going to turn it into an
office.
We're going to make it a usablespace.
We're going to we're going toinvite the community in to do
things um and um.
We're going to do that for anybuilding.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Anybody will let us get into and there are plenty of
opportunities in the region,for sure.
Exactly like the, the momentarywas the old craft place.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Right as far as that, and having spent a lot, you'd
say there are plenty, though Iwould say, like, compared to the
older industrial and warehouseinfrastructure that'll like,
let's say, compare the potentialrehabilitation sites in chicago
to oh yeah, oh yeah, they'regonna have a lot of that
(28:04):
opportunity compared to us,correct?
And you know, once thecarnation plant is taken up and
the Tyson plant and the craftplant, they actually start to
get lower in number, which is aninteresting conundrum.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Yeah, I wish there were more old buildings, yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
That were worth doing something.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Yeah, it would be.
I wish there were hundreds andhundreds of them.
Adaptive reuse is one of ourprimary services, and so, yeah,
it'd be great if we had more ofthem, but it sure is fun to work
on the ones we do have.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Yeah, as you look at the growth of Northwest Arkansas
, people outside of NorthwestArkansas look at that as one
entity, but it's reallycomprised of several smaller,
with their own city centers andtheir own kind of look and feel
to their communities.
Sure, and so integrating thoseis all part of the growth and
expansion as well, correct, andthat does open up more
(29:02):
opportunity, it would seem, forolder buildings and things like
that yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
I think there is a finite amount of buildings that
were built 100 years ago Sureyeah, and as we, as a community
of architects and developers inNorthwest Arkansas, adapt those
buildings to be functionalspaces, there will be no more of
them and we will hit the end ofthat.
And we because we are such afast growing area with amazing
(29:30):
investment we are getting fewerand fewer of those opportunities
very, very quickly, and sothat's just part of it, and
there's not.
That's not a bad thing or agood thing.
It just is the result ofincredible development.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
yeah, yeah, a lot of what we're seeing.
Um, as far as you know, thingsthat are potentially coming
being voted on locally by allthe jurisdictions are starting
to also look at now multi-use,more multi-use.
And I think when you said, youknow you get farther out, people
can get isolated, but multi-usetends to ensure that they don't
, because it gives them theopportunity to live, shop, play
(30:05):
all in their communities.
How do you see that becoming animportant role, or do you see
it becoming an important part ofthe healthy growth of Northwest
Arkansas?
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Yeah, I'll jump in on that one.
So multifunction buildings caneither be developments that are
vertically integrated, caneither be developments that are
vertically integrated, so groundfloor commercial spaces with
residential spaces above, orthey can be horizontal
developments that are planned tobe built around a community.
(30:33):
So you have layers of importantinfrastructure.
You have kind of a new towncenter surrounded by shop that
includes shopping andrestaurants and things like that
, and then as you get out youhave high-d.
So townhomes, apartments,things like that, and then
single family homes, that kindof ring it.
As we build new town centers, aswe build on the kind of
(30:56):
periphery of what we're doingright now, the more new town
centers we can put, the better.
As we build at the center ofour current urban spaces, the
more infill projects that arevertically integrated, mixed use
spaces, the better.
So it's a critical thing for usto do.
Otherwise we're going to end upwith massive amounts of housing
(31:19):
on the periphery with noservices available to people,
where you'd have to get in a carand drive 15, 20 minutes to get
a gallon of milk yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
Yeah, I was just on a technical assistance panel for
the city of centered oh wow,okay, resort urban land
institute small citiesinitiative, which is
specifically geared towardhelping those what would turn
into the bedroom suburbcommunities, um to help them
think more carefully about theircity centers, avoid some of
(31:50):
that, and um forgot where I wasgoing with that.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
But well, you were talking about there's an effort
to there is a massive effort bythe urban land institute, with a
high level of investment tohelp our cities do better.
Speaker 4 (32:06):
Those smaller cities to provide the resources that
they need, especially the onesthat are not the Roger
Springdale, fanville, Benvillesto have the type, have access to
the type of answers andactivities they need to do
better, yeah, the type ofanswers and activities they need
to do.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yeah, and I think many of the relatively larger
cities that you just namedSpringdale, bentonville, rogers
have been doing planning formany, many years.
Our firm actually participatedin the facilitation of
Springdale 2020, which tookplace back in 2002, 2003.
(32:45):
So there's been a vision forwhere we've been to that that it
has been many years in theworks and some of these other
communities that are smaller andspringing up really haven't had
that much to envision thatgrowth until recently.
So I love that Urban LandInstitute is doing that work.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
When was Northwest Arkansas Council started?
Because I believe NorthwestArkansas Council was kind of
formed to help.
To help with that yes,especially with the four main
cities, as it features to help.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yes, and I'm not recalling when, but it was
sometime, sometime in the last15 years, I think.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Yeah so yeah, I don't , I don't know and I you know,
just like any new entity,they've run into challenges and
hurdles that they've had toovercome.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I don't know how much we want to talk about that, but
yeah, well, I think the trickis collaborative planning in
advance of the growth right.
That's kind of sums it up.
Yeah, yeah, it's something thatthat communities need to be
coming together and envisioningbeyond right next year for sure,
and in in our larger citiesthat is easy.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
They have big planning departments and people
who are experts in that.
They can bring in outsideconsultants to to help.
Our smaller cities don't evenhave a planning department, much
less anything else.
So, um, that's whereorganizations like the urban
land institute and the regionalcouncil can.
Can this come right?
(34:19):
Assist?
Speaker 1 (34:19):
yeah, no, I agree with that.
It's just like, um, with someof our clients who are in
utilities.
Um, they have small.
What many people don't know ismany the vast majority of
utilities are very small acrossthe country and whether that is
water and sewer, electric,whatever it may be, but the way
that works within the industrieswe found is that they are
(34:41):
supported by a lot of the largerutilities who give them
expertise and understanding ofhow to do things differently and
help them improve, and so thatwas one of the things I think
that was we're talking aboutthis, that kind of cooperative
effort, because right now, thebig topics are you mentioned it
it's, you know it's, it's waterdrainage, it's sewage and a hand
(35:04):
deal.
That's a 40, 50 year oldproblem and people are now
saying, well, it should be done.
Well, it should have beenstarted 40, 50 years ago.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
But now everyone has to deal if you're going to
continue to grow and then do so40, 50 years ago nobody in
northwest arkansas knew thatexactly biggest retailer by
volume in the world, or create acity within, or that tyson was
going to become the biggestretailer by volume in the world,
or create a city within a city,or that.
Tyson was going to be thelargest meat producer in the
world.
You know if people knew thatand could have looked into the
future and said you know, thepopulation of this region is
(35:33):
going to septuple.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Yes, right.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
And buy a bit thinking about it and buying
cheap land, but they weren't.
You know most of them.
Yeah, that of them, yeah,that's true.
Yeah, you end up in that.
I know another infrastructureannoyance for a lot of people,
especially those who have livedhere for a long time, is the way
that traffic and the volumethat's created by all the growth
(36:02):
of population is overwhelmingwhat were pretty easy to
navigate.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
On average, 32 people move to Northwest Arkansas a
day, which is an enormous amountof people when you think about
it.
We are consistently in the top10, if not the top five fastest
growing regions in the country,which is amazing to be doing
what we do Like.
It's a great place to be doingwhat we're doing.
(36:30):
It's and it's we really have.
We have a lot of compassion forour friends at the city
government that have to managethat.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Yeah, yeah, well, as we kind of near the end of our
discussion, one of the thingsI'd really love to hear from you
all is for people who aren'tlisteners and viewers that
aren't in Northwest Arkansaswhat tips can you give them or
what can you share with them tobe thinking about their own
communities and developing them?
Speaker 3 (36:58):
Wow, yeah, I think if you're creating places that are
authentic to you, then you'regoing to be creating great
places.
If you're putting your heartand soul and some grit into it,
there's going to be a greatoutcome.
Every city's got its own uniquechallenges and we've talked a
lot about what ours are and Ithink there's some lessons
learned from that.
(37:18):
I think there's a lot to belearned from the growth that
we've experienced and how tomanage that and how to get ahead
of it and just you know, ifyour heart's in it, it'll be
amazing.
Yeah, that's what I would say.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
One word that I like to describe the thing that
distinguishes one place fromanother is intentionality, and
the great thing aboutintentionality is that it can
cost a million dollars, or itcan cost a hundred dollars, and
so, while our community has thebenefit of tremendous investment
(37:55):
in the way that art and designhas been deployed intentionally
in the community, as apreacher's kid who grew up to be
an artist, I can assure youthat that type of intentionality
and creative placemaking canstill happen, even on modest
budgets, if it's done with, Ithink, with integrity, and if
(38:21):
it's done with imagination.
Yeah, so that's what I would say.
You know, sometimes I feel badabout talking about Northwest
Arkansas in the way that I do,because very few places in the
history of the world have hadjust the same set of conditions.
Yes, they've coalesced in thesame place.
That's created the type ofdynamic that we're talking about
(38:41):
Very few, and so you know tosay, hey, hey, you should do it
like us, you know we wouldn'tsay that you should also have
like you know a few fortune 500companies.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Yeah right, fortune one understand but so but you
know their city is unique, it'sgot a, it's got a unique place
in in the culture and thecommunity and tap into that
uniqueness in whatever way ispossible.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
Yeah, so the imaginative intentionality on
whatever budget you've got.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
And for artists who want to enhance their
communities.
What advice would you give?
Your story and how you came tobe here is that's a difficult
question.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
It may be content for an entire other podcast.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
I say I make that happen.
There are a lot of things goingon.
Speaker 4 (39:33):
Because those artists , they have to have a job.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 4 (39:36):
They have to make a living in a perfect world.
I will say very briefly, though, that, though that you know, an
art ecosystem is composed notonly of artists but of patrons
and collectors, and while thereseems to have been an upsurge of
artists in the nwa artecosystem, there has not been
(40:00):
any kind of miraculous upsurgein the patron or collecting uh
part of the economy.
So you've got a little bit of alopsided um creative economy in
northwest aren't all, with moreproducers than consumers, and
that's something that takes andI'm not a scientist, I'm not a
sociologist but that takesdecades of time to maybe begin
(40:23):
to come around.
So that's a long game.
I think Right now it's tough.
Like I said, that's a wholepodcast.
Yeah, all right, that's fair,that's fair.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Well, what do you want to leave us with, or our
viewers and listeners, aboutVerdant and what you have going
on in the future?
Speaker 4 (40:46):
More risk-taking about burden and what you have
going on in the future.
Risk taking, more risk taking.
So we began.
I think I feel like jessica isa risk taker.
She took a risk on me, justbringing me on board, um, when
she did, and um, and even justas the type of employee that I
was, um I go.
You know, I don't doarchitectural drawings.
I'm useless In my respect.
So, and that fit my personalitypretty well, and we are going
(41:12):
to continue to take risks andwe're going to continue to take
our lumps and we're going tocontinue to.
I'm a big fan of failure andgrowth, you know.
I continue to.
I'm a big fan of failure andgross, you know together it's
not a whole lot I like aboutspace s or space x or Elon Musk,
but I get the like continuallyblowing up rockets, because you
(41:37):
learn something every time whenyou blow up a rocket this is
true although he has a lot ofmoney to do that.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Right, I get it.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
So we'd like to really scale back our failure.
Speaker 4 (41:48):
Yeah, we try to mitigate that, that's fair.
Yeah, it's quite as high risk,it's fact.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Well, this is amazing and thought-provoking and I
think viewers and listeners aregoing to take back some of what
they've thought about and reallynotice more and and and become
more active in in trying to be aan influence portion of what
creative space making iscreative place making.
(42:16):
Ken, you want to wrap it up.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Yeah, first, again, thank you for your time today.
I think that, uh, laterlisteners will have a better
understanding.
I have a better understanding.
I have a better understandingof how it all comes together and
it's not just magical and it'snot always planned.
Sometimes it is kind of justthe right timing and things of
that nature.
But, yes, we do want to saythank you.
I want to thank you to ourlisteners.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Yes, and viewers.
Speaker 4 (42:41):
Also thank you to our listeners.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
Yes, and please subscribe listeners and viewers
so that you can learn more, andif there are materials related
to what we've talked about todaythat you want us to put in our
website, we'd be happy to dothat.
And listeners and viewers, youcan see that at
fourBarsPodcastcom.
Have a great day.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Thank you.
The 4 Bars Podcast has beenbrought to you by Edges Inc.
A growth advisory firm based inBentonville, arkansas.
I founded the company in 2001.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Edges promotes growth , people, companies and ideas.
Our team collaboration tool,called Interface Methods, is a
basis for teams to work togethermore collaboratively,
understand each other and acceptdifferences and address
challenges together.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
We also started a nonprofit called Unform your
Bias.
We teach kids and their adultinfluencers how to utilize
storytelling as a means toreduce bias in the world.
We hope you'll check us out,subscribe to our podcast and
look at our website.
Welcome to the 4.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Bars Podcast.
I'm Ken Leith and I'm PattiLeith.
We're your hosts for somecompelling dialogue, encouraging
our listeners to strengthentheir connections and build
strong communities, lifting eachother up and connecting in ways
that matter.
We named the podcast 4 Bars asa reference to how hard we work
to find a 4 Bars connection onour devices.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
And we wondered what could happen with relationships
if we worked as hard atconnecting.
Let's find out.
Welcome to Four Bars Podcast.
I'm one of your hosts, Ken Lee.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
And I'm co-host.
Patty Leith, welcome, it'sgreat to have you here.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
So we are joined today by Jessica Hester, who is
the CEO and principal architectat Verdant Studio, along with
Dayton Castleman, who's directorof creative placemaking and
artist lead.
Welcome to Four Bars, thanks.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Thank you, welcome.
It's great to have you here.
Yeah, great to be here, thankyou.
Well, we are excited to hearabout what Verdant Studio has
been doing in the area, in theregion, and I think you also are
setting some great standardsfor other communities to take a
look at.
So we're really excited,jessica, I'll start with you.
(01:08):
What was your inspiration tostart Verdant and can you tell
us about it?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Yeah, of course.
So I started Verdant Studio 10years ago in five days.
So we are almost on our 10 yearbirthday.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
That's fantastic.
That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Yeah, and I started it a girl on a laptop on my
couch and dining room tablebefore.
That was cool and grew it overthe years to become what it is
today and we've had a variety ofamazing things happen and some
really big challenges that havehappened, but everything has
(01:45):
just created this team that isso synergistic and really
dedicated to creating placespeople love.
That is our mission in thisworld is creating places people
love, and I do that with thehelp of Dayton and an incredible
design team.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, fantastic, fantastic.
Can you describe the servicesthat you provide?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Yeah, of course.
So, unlike a typicalarchitecture firm that just
delivers blueprints, at the endwe do that we also.
So we call that our kind ofcapital, a architecture
deliverables.
But we also have Dayton on ourteam doing creative placemaking,
and I'm actually going to letDayton talk about the ins and
outs of all the services he does, because there's a wide breadth
(02:31):
there.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Can you tell us about what creative placemaking is?
Some of our viewers may notknow.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
It's something that I only discovered the terminology
of creative placemaking, a fewyears ago, and it was in my
effort to reconcile mybackground as an artist, but an
artist that has been focused onartwork in public spaces for
about 25 years and where thatintersects with the architecture
(03:02):
engineering, construction world, with the architecture
engineering, construction world,and so the term placemaking, or
creative placemaking, is onethat's used to describe, as I've
come to understand it, theintersection of landscape,
whether that's landscape design,whether that's landscape
(03:22):
engineering, architecture, andthe creative arts.
So at that point, I think iswhere is how I understand
creative place making?
And I I think of it at thatintersection?
Because in order for effectiveplace making to take place, I
(03:45):
think that the the architecturehas to be mindful of what's
going on related to the art orrelated to landscape.
Landscape needs to be mindfulof the others, and then even the
artwork and the way that itmight um, shape or um or give uh
identity to the rest of it hasto be mindful of what the
(04:05):
architecture and the landscapeis doing so.
They create an interrelatedfield of influences.
Creative placemaking is a wayof describing when.
If in this three-way dance,when art takes the lead, okay,
and there are placemaking.
(04:26):
There are examples ofplacemaking where you could say
that architecture's taken thelead and making this place a
place that people want tocongregate or that they feel a
sense of ownership over oridentify with, and there are
instances where the landscapearchitect or, you know, engineer
(04:46):
is the one who has is thatdiscipline, that's kind of taken
the lead in how those interplaymy background's in visual art
and sculpture, and so naturallyI gravitate toward that art
taking the lead oftentimes, orwhen, when there's an
opportunity for that to happen,um, so uh so as a three-way
(05:13):
dance, it's really acollaborative integration of
ideas.
Every time, yeah, in the placetogether how exciting it is.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
The way that I like to tell people about it is we
make places cool yeah, we canall get that yeah that's amazing
here in northwest arkansas.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
I think that's the people who come visit.
That's one of the things youhear is it's a cool vibe within
the region.
Yeah and uh, you can't go veryfar around here without seeing
artwork integrated into somewhat, looking at least from outside
not being an expert in thatseemingly seamlessly interwoven
within the, whether it'sarchitecture or just, uh, parks,
(05:52):
whatever it may be, even thebuildings, yeah, for sure the,
the real estate development thatled the way in um.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
I think creating the momentum that you're describing
for everything to be, for withinevery dimension of the building
of the community, for artworkto be carefully considered is
Crystal Bridges as the firstreal, major, visible investment
(06:22):
that literally made Bentonvillea place that people wanted to be
in a way that they never hadbefore.
So all of a sudden, you haveimmediately a regional and
national tourism draw overnightIn late 2011 into 2012.
(06:42):
So with that case study or thatprecedent, you know taking the
lead.
I think what it's done is it'ssort of um created an
expectation and a type ofreverberation that causes
everyone else that wants tocreate interesting places to
(07:03):
follow suit yeah, no, then thatthat makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Um, I think timing, because you mentioned you're
coming up on your 10-yearanniversary.
I think last year crystalbridges just had their 10-year
anniversary, so your timing waspretty.
Last year we've been 13 years.
Yeah, oh actually 13.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Okay, but it's our time flies, that's okay I can
remember walking in there in 12for their opening.
They opened late in 12.
It was uh, 11, 11, 11, was it11?
Speaker 4 (07:29):
yeah it was november of 11, but a lot of people saw
it around january of 2012because, hey, there's holidays.
So yeah I think the first majorum influx of visitors was
around the holidays in 2011,2012.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
So and I knew well, I knew I used to run those trails
back behind where that yeahwhere they were building.
I knew then that it was goingto transform, yeah, this
community.
But I knew when I walked inthat it was like this is
sticking around and what hastranspired in the 13 years since
has been just really afascinating um evolution of the
(08:08):
prevalence of art in many forms,right.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
So, yeah, it's been really fun to see and it's been
very visible as it's occurredsome of my first experiences
with art and public spaces innorthwest Arkansas were coming
from the architecture side,because oftentimes architects
and as Jessica knows, there's apremium to be had with,
(08:36):
especially when the client hasart in their scope with having
someone to think critically andcarefully and excellently about
that.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yeah, it's been a real joy to watch not only the
influence of Virta and theirarchitecture and design
interiors team deploy incredibleprojects across the region and
nationally, but to see whatDayton has done, not just on our
projects but other otherarchitecture projects across the
(09:08):
region and nationally.
He the legacy that's being leftbehind is a really it's a real
privilege to be a part of that,and not just for Dayton's sake,
but when you talk to peopleabout the vine which is the
metal awning around 8th StreetMarket, or the Arrow in downtown
Bentonville, people know whatthose things are.
They have memories andexperiences around those pieces
(09:31):
of art that Dayton has createdand deployed and so it's just
really great to be a part ofthat story for them.
It's fascinating, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
And, as I think about it, and we had a conversation
not long ago and I thought aboutplaces where I've been where
they kind of like went through aprocess of revitalization.
We talked a little bit aboutthe fact that there was art and
artists who came in andincredible culinary young people
bringing in culinary and musicand shifting kind of
(10:01):
revitalizing.
Is that kind of a recipe thatyou see?
Or how does that happen?
Because it did, as I think,back now to where the square
used to be kind of shut down at5 o'clock years ago 18 years or
so many years ago when I gothere, and now it's full of life
all the time.
I have a lot to say on that.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
I know you do.
I know you do because you'reone of the artists.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
I want to give you the first no, but specifically
related to that idea of theartist's role.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
The artist's role in the middle of all of it.
It is a critical role.
I think I will say this beforeyou jump into your story, which
is we are privileged inNorthwest Arkansas to be able to
have incredible quality of lifethat is being subsidized and
influenced beyond what thetypical kind of gentrification
and growth pattern would be, andso I think we get to live in.
(10:59):
You know, the nickname forNorthwest Arkansas is Oz, and
there's a lot.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
there's a reason for that.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
It is a glorious place to exist and I think we
all get we all get to benefitfrom from that investment.
I think if you're looking atcities beyond Northwest Arkansas
that are more like a moretypical growth pattern, it is
often and Dayton will talk aboutthis, but it is often the
artists it is.
It is the people whoton willtalk about this, but it is often
the artist it is.
It is the people who arewilling to get creative put in
(11:28):
the work, come up with somesolution that's crazy and out of
the box and they really get theenergy back into spaces and
that didn't have it before.
Um, there's just so much gritin that and I think a lot of
gentrification requires grit.
That's well said.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
However, I don't think of Northwest Arkansas in
terms of revitalization.
I agree, and I understand theway, that we do have these kind
of legacy older downtowns whichhave older architecture, older
infrastructure.
They bear the signs of a lot oflarger urban area downtown, so
(12:11):
on and so forth but you don'thave the blight in the same way
that you see in major urbancenters.
But there's just not enoughmoney to keep up with everything
that needs to be kept up with.
What you do have in northwestArkansas is just good,
old-fashioned urbanization.
In other words, we're buildinga city where there really wasn't
a city before.
(12:32):
Now there are cities, but we'retalking about what people from
cities don't refer to as cities.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Right.
Speaker 4 (12:39):
These are quaint little small towns.
They've got a square with a fewhistoric buildings and that's
cute, but it's not a city.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Let's be real.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
We're really actually combining these nodes that the
smaller cities represent intothis large metro urban area.
Each city retains its uniquecharacter and its sovereignty,
what it's allowed to mess withand not mess with, but, um, but
(13:09):
overall, you just have a lot offarmland that's now turning into
urban area and filling in thosegaps and we have, um, the uh,
predictable resistance to thatchange of landscape, which I
understand.
It was that possibility that acity might grow up here.
(13:32):
That brought me here.
So I'm on the other side of thecoin, which just like, yeah,
build, build, let's make, let'sturn it into a city, which is
part of the fun of being here.
But, um, so, because I don'tthink it's revitalization,
because, because I think it'surbanization, I think some of
the dynamics that are present,with projects that are taking
(13:57):
what are areas that may have atone point had their day in the
sun and are now, um, on theirheels, bringing those series
back, I don't see a lot of that.
What I see is just peoplegetting to think brand new about
what it would be like to builda world-class museum for example
(14:17):
yeah, which is why crystalbridges what was it?
uh, I can't remember thepublication they put out an
article and the title of thearticle was is crystal bridges
the most woke museum in america?
And it's because they had anopportunity, starting in 2011,
to create a museum that thoughtdifferently about the way
(14:40):
museums might operate and thatwas being recognized.
So the whole region reflectsthat same kind of we get to make
this up and we get to maybe doit ideally or do it differently.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah, yeah, which is fascinating yeah, it really has
been neat to to be a part of it.
Can you speak a little bit tothe the role that that art and
creative placemaking lays in acommunity and how that lifts up
the community?
Speaker 4 (15:10):
the first thing that needs to happen in a community
is people need to be able to besheltered and fed and safe, and
that's a rule of architectureRight, and of engineering and of
landscape and of communities.
So I don't want to aggrandizeart because it adds a particular
(15:31):
and interesting dimension to it, without saying that the
fundamental need of anycommunity is good architecture,
good infrastructure, goodplanning, et cetera, et cetera,
good landscaping, drainage,utilities that's what
communities really, really need.
(15:52):
What I've enjoyed about art isits unique ability to, in poetic
ways, to tease out the um, thepersonality or the character of
the history, and its unique waysof communities.
(16:13):
Yeah, um, much in the way that,like, our hearts have to keep
beating and our lungs have tokeep working for us to be
upright and having thisconversation, um, but the things
that we would describe thatmake us up or that make us
unique or important asindividuals are not that I have
(16:35):
a working heartbeat and aworking brain, and lungs work.
It's, there's.
There's an intangible dimensionto that.
You see some of it, I describedsome of it, but there's
something intangible dimensionto that.
You see some of it, I describesome of it, but there's
something else that makes me,and I think art has a way of, in
the spaces between landscapeand architecture, the connective
(16:57):
tissue, to elucidate thosekinds of things Right.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Okay, to elucidate those kinds of things Right okay
, and we've had a running lookat what is community as we have
been involved in this podcastand it really not to
oversimplify, but it reallycomes down to people, places and
activities.
Right, and you're bringing inthe place part of it for the
(17:21):
people to come together.
Right, and you're bringing inthe place part of it for the
people to come together.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Right, yeah, right.
One way that we think aboutplacemaking other than making
places cool is that it embeds asense of authenticity in a place
that may otherwise have nopersonality.
It may have no kind of zhuzhabout it until we get involved
(17:54):
and we start to deploy bits andpieces that give it its
uniqueness and interest, andthose are ways to engage the
community too.
So those are all intentionaldeployments to give not only
just moments of joy, becausesome of our art is just about
experiencing the beauty of it,but sometimes it's about
experiencing being part ofcreating it.
(18:14):
We do projects where we ask thecommunity to come and
participate with various piecesof deploying the art, especially
if it's a temporary piece, andthat's a great way to bring
people together, and art isuniquely placed in the world to
bring people together in acompletely unbiased and pure way
(18:36):
that a lot of other things justcan't do.
Yeah, yeah, very very cool yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
And, as we're talking about the different buildings,
you talk about crystal bridgesand one of the things I've
really recently what we've hadis also the heartland hold
health institute is open andthey've invited people in and so
now you've got the beauty ofcrystal bridges with a, you know
, an incredible architecture.
To your point is and for thosewho've never been here, it's
located down in a low area,partially, I would imagine,
(19:06):
because it's health protectedagainst the weather, hopefully
the way it is I think it wasintentionally set there because
of its relationship to thatstream and, generally speaking,
that holler real estate isworthless because it's so
difficult to build them.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
It's very, very, very difficult to build things and
holler with the live streamthrough it?
Yeah, stream going through,because everyone has a stream
going yes it is literally theproduct of erosion and you want
to build in that field oferosion?
Go for it listen um, but it'svery challenging and very
expensive to do well, so I thinkthat has more to do with it.
(19:45):
It's like you could buy up allthe cheap, worthless holler land
for nothing.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
As long as you have the money on the back end.
Speaker 4 (19:55):
Well, eventually, but for a long time it's not worth
anything Like there's walkingtrails.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
You're saving on the front end and spending it on the
back end and finishing, so tospeak.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Yeah, but I don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I think it has a lot to do with just that, you do
have this beautiful and then,within you know, a couple
hundred feet, you've got the newHeartland Whole Health
Institute, which is incrediblebecause it's art and they're
going to have what I read theother day is probably going to
be one of the largest greenroofs in the country?
Well, that's the Alice VaughanSchool of Medicine.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Yes, From an architecture perspective, both
of those buildings areincredible pieces of
architecture and art themselves.
The architect that designed thedesign crystal bridges won the
AIA gold medal a few years afterhe completed that project,
which is one of the highestawards in our field and
(20:49):
well-deserved.
It's an incredible piece ofarchitecture.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
He also did, I think, the Kansas City Ballet.
Yeah, his portfolio isextensive.
Like the buildings, you canwalk in and know that he did it.
They have a personality oftheir own.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
When I first got here again, none of this was really
here at that point.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
I didn't know it was coming in.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
But one thing I did notice was there was art and I
never went and I guess I couldsay I was a little closed-minded
on this.
When I got here, one of theearly things, patty asked me she
goes would you like to go tothe craft fair?
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Oh, which was?
That's a huge part of ourculture and I didn't realize
that.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
I was like no, thank you, I'm going to go out on my
bicycle instead and cycle.
But having come to then, itjust kind of was like it didn't
go away and it's still here andpeople all over.
I found to be able to go to thecrafts, but they bring their
own art.
Our farmer's markets have allthat.
It plays a big role here,doesn't it?
(21:48):
From your perspective?
Speaker 3 (21:50):
It definitely does.
The craft fairs in northwestArkansas are some of the most
attended craft fairs in thecountry.
They are.
People travel from all over thecountry to come to them, and
Dane can tell you why.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Yeah well, I mean, I think my arrival in Northwest
Arkansas was definitely due topaying attention to the sort of
rarefied international artconversation that Crystal
Bridges represents.
But it's important to rememberthat Crystal Bridges didn't
bring art to Northwest Arkansas,that the arts and crafts in
particular, especially withfunctional pottery, um, glass
(22:28):
and other forms uh, poor peoplelike wood have existed here for
very long time now as most artsdo.
When you're talking aboutgenerally poor people making art
, they were, they skewed towardthe functional, and so, um,
sometimes the functional artsand crafts get um, are you know,
(22:52):
people.
I think their perception isthat they take a back seat to um
, the uh, the ivory tower artthat crystal Bridges represents.
But the community that makesthose things and that brought
that up has always been here,and that's another interesting
dimension that you have tonavigate and be cognizant of.
(23:15):
In fact, a great example ofthat is the architecture of the
Whole Health Institute, whichincorporates the only term.
I've heard it referred to asgiraffe stone.
Okay, there's a giraffe stone,which is a type of stone work
that you see occasionally in um,arkansas.
(23:37):
I've seen it just almanila'sparticular way of building a
wall with stone that is somewhatlike almost hexagonal in the
way that the stones are puttogether.
Maybe they're stackedvertically rather than
horizontally, and so it createsa very distinct pattern, and
(23:58):
that is a like Ozark, vernaculartype of architecture which was
developed because it waspractical for some reason.
I don't know the whole historyof it, but you'll see it out in
the woods in Arkansas.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, now you see it.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
Now they mention it Now, you see it, it was adapted
to the facade of the stoneworkof the whole Elk Institute.
Wow, that's fascinating, thatintersection of that indigenous
kind of arts, crafty sort ofcraftsmanship, and the
intersection of that with, like,the world-class stuff that
(24:33):
crystal bridge represents I liketo how the work that you're
doing is supporting the urbanurbanization that's taking place
here you introduced me to urbanland institute, and so I
thought you'd be particularlysuited to talk about that from
(24:56):
um perspective that rememberswhen like pinnacle was was cow
feed.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
I don't remember.
I do remember that.
I say I don't remember whengennacle was a cow feed.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
I do.
Yeah, I think we've touched abit on like the difference
between what we've experiencedversus like a true
gentrification, like coming inafter a massive flight and
blight, and things like that.
What we're experiencing is, asa metro region, is a massive
(25:26):
amount of sprawl and there are alot of challenges with sprawl.
One of the biggest ones we'regoing to we are experiencing now
and will continue to experience, is the upkeep, maintenance and
expansion of utilities, andit's an enormous challenge for
Northwest Arkansas.
It's not the sexy part of whatwe do and I think it's really
(25:49):
important as we continue tothink about placemaking, as we
continue, as a region, to thinkabout growth, to prioritize
density, to prioritize infill,to prioritize spaces that bring
communities together instead ofcreate more distance apart from
one another and then just putmore strain on our taxes and
(26:12):
infrastructure.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
Yeah, yeah, when urbanizing, to be able to
utilize the lessons that we'velearned from the negative
aspects of suburbanization andthe just kind of continual
movement outward from the citycenter and isolation, ultimately
(26:34):
, from the city center as aresult um, I hope that northwest
arkansas and I know there are alot of people working and
making concern effort to ensurethat this happens is that we are
planning right now to preventthat from happening Correct,
correct, correct.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Well, and as an architecture firm, we prioritize
in full projects.
We prioritize projects that aregoing to put less burden on our
systems in our city and providecommunity space for the people
that we serve and our clients.
Doesn't mean we don't do someof the other stuff.
We'd absolutely do.
But, whenever we can.
We're going to take an oldbuilding like our office, which
(27:14):
was originally the milk plantfor the city of Rogers, designed
125 years ago by Carnation, andwe're going to turn it into an
office.
We're going to make it a usablespace.
We're going to we're going toinvite the community in to do
things um and um.
We're going to do that for anybuilding.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Anybody will let us get into and there are plenty of
opportunities in the region,for sure.
Exactly like the, the momentarywas the old craft place.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Right as far as that, and having spent a lot, you'd
say there are plenty, though Iwould say, like, compared to the
older industrial and warehouseinfrastructure that'll like,
let's say, compare the potentialrehabilitation sites in chicago
to oh yeah, oh yeah, they'regonna have a lot of that
(28:04):
opportunity compared to us,correct?
And you know, once thecarnation plant is taken up and
the Tyson plant and the craftplant, they actually start to
get lower in number, which is aninteresting conundrum.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Yeah, I wish there were more old buildings, yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
That were worth doing something.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Yeah, it would be.
I wish there were hundreds andhundreds of them.
Adaptive reuse is one of ourprimary services, and so, yeah,
it'd be great if we had more ofthem, but it sure is fun to work
on the ones we do have.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Yeah, as you look at the growth of Northwest Arkansas
, people outside of NorthwestArkansas look at that as one
entity, but it's reallycomprised of several smaller,
with their own city centers andtheir own kind of look and feel
to their communities.
Sure, and so integrating thoseis all part of the growth and
expansion as well, correct, andthat does open up more
(29:02):
opportunity, it would seem, forolder buildings and things like
that yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
I think there is a finite amount of buildings that
were built 100 years ago Sureyeah, and as we, as a community
of architects and developers inNorthwest Arkansas, adapt those
buildings to be functionalspaces, there will be no more of
them and we will hit the end ofthat.
And we because we are such afast growing area with amazing
(29:30):
investment we are getting fewerand fewer of those opportunities
very, very quickly, and sothat's just part of it, and
there's not.
That's not a bad thing or agood thing.
It just is the result ofincredible development.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
yeah, yeah, a lot of what we're seeing.
Um, as far as you know, thingsthat are potentially coming
being voted on locally by allthe jurisdictions are starting
to also look at now multi-use,more multi-use.
And I think when you said, youknow you get farther out, people
can get isolated, but multi-usetends to ensure that they don't
, because it gives them theopportunity to live, shop, play
(30:05):
all in their communities.
How do you see that becoming animportant role, or do you see
it becoming an important part ofthe healthy growth of Northwest
Arkansas?
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Yeah, I'll jump in on that one.
So multifunction buildings caneither be developments that are
vertically integrated, caneither be developments that are
vertically integrated, so groundfloor commercial spaces with
residential spaces above, orthey can be horizontal
developments that are planned tobe built around a community.
(30:33):
So you have layers of importantinfrastructure.
You have kind of a new towncenter surrounded by shop that
includes shopping andrestaurants and things like that
, and then as you get out youhave high-d.
So townhomes, apartments,things like that, and then
single family homes, that kindof ring it.
As we build new town centers, aswe build on the kind of
(30:56):
periphery of what we're doingright now, the more new town
centers we can put, the better.
As we build at the center ofour current urban spaces, the
more infill projects that arevertically integrated, mixed use
spaces, the better.
So it's a critical thing for usto do.
Otherwise we're going to end upwith massive amounts of housing
(31:19):
on the periphery with noservices available to people,
where you'd have to get in a carand drive 15, 20 minutes to get
a gallon of milk yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
Yeah, I was just on a technical assistance panel for
the city of centered oh wow,okay, resort urban land
institute small citiesinitiative, which is
specifically geared towardhelping those what would turn
into the bedroom suburbcommunities, um to help them
think more carefully about theircity centers, avoid some of
(31:50):
that, and um forgot where I wasgoing with that.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
But well, you were talking about there's an effort
to there is a massive effort bythe urban land institute, with a
high level of investment tohelp our cities do better.
Speaker 4 (32:06):
Those smaller cities to provide the resources that
they need, especially the onesthat are not the Roger
Springdale, fanville, Benvillesto have the type, have access to
the type of answers andactivities they need to do
better, yeah, the type ofanswers and activities they need
to do.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yeah, and I think many of the relatively larger
cities that you just namedSpringdale, bentonville, rogers
have been doing planning formany, many years.
Our firm actually participatedin the facilitation of
Springdale 2020, which tookplace back in 2002, 2003.
(32:45):
So there's been a vision forwhere we've been to that that it
has been many years in theworks and some of these other
communities that are smaller andspringing up really haven't had
that much to envision thatgrowth until recently.
So I love that Urban LandInstitute is doing that work.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
When was Northwest Arkansas Council started?
Because I believe NorthwestArkansas Council was kind of
formed to help.
To help with that yes,especially with the four main
cities, as it features to help.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yes, and I'm not recalling when, but it was
sometime, sometime in the last15 years, I think.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Yeah so yeah, I don't , I don't know and I you know,
just like any new entity,they've run into challenges and
hurdles that they've had toovercome.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I don't know how much we want to talk about that, but
yeah, well, I think the trickis collaborative planning in
advance of the growth right.
That's kind of sums it up.
Yeah, yeah, it's something thatthat communities need to be
coming together and envisioningbeyond right next year for sure,
and in in our larger citiesthat is easy.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
They have big planning departments and people
who are experts in that.
They can bring in outsideconsultants to to help.
Our smaller cities don't evenhave a planning department, much
less anything else.
So, um, that's whereorganizations like the urban
land institute and the regionalcouncil can.
Can this come right?
(34:19):
Assist?
Speaker 1 (34:19):
yeah, no, I agree with that.
It's just like, um, with someof our clients who are in
utilities.
Um, they have small.
What many people don't know ismany the vast majority of
utilities are very small acrossthe country and whether that is
water and sewer, electric,whatever it may be, but the way
that works within the industrieswe found is that they are
(34:41):
supported by a lot of the largerutilities who give them
expertise and understanding ofhow to do things differently and
help them improve, and so thatwas one of the things I think
that was we're talking aboutthis, that kind of cooperative
effort, because right now, thebig topics are you mentioned it
it's, you know it's, it's waterdrainage, it's sewage and a hand
(35:04):
deal.
That's a 40, 50 year oldproblem and people are now
saying, well, it should be done.
Well, it should have beenstarted 40, 50 years ago.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
But now everyone has to deal if you're going to
continue to grow and then do so40, 50 years ago nobody in
northwest arkansas knew thatexactly biggest retailer by
volume in the world, or create acity within, or that tyson was
going to become the biggestretailer by volume in the world,
or create a city within a city,or that.
Tyson was going to be thelargest meat producer in the
world.
You know if people knew thatand could have looked into the
future and said you know, thepopulation of this region is
(35:33):
going to septuple.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Yes, right.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
And buy a bit thinking about it and buying
cheap land, but they weren't.
You know most of them.
Yeah, that of them, yeah,that's true.
Yeah, you end up in that.
I know another infrastructureannoyance for a lot of people,
especially those who have livedhere for a long time, is the way
that traffic and the volumethat's created by all the growth
(36:02):
of population is overwhelmingwhat were pretty easy to
navigate.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
On average, 32 people move to Northwest Arkansas a
day, which is an enormous amountof people when you think about
it.
We are consistently in the top10, if not the top five fastest
growing regions in the country,which is amazing to be doing
what we do Like.
It's a great place to be doingwhat we're doing.
(36:30):
It's and it's we really have.
We have a lot of compassion forour friends at the city
government that have to managethat.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Yeah, yeah, well, as we kind of near the end of our
discussion, one of the thingsI'd really love to hear from you
all is for people who aren'tlisteners and viewers that
aren't in Northwest Arkansaswhat tips can you give them or
what can you share with them tobe thinking about their own
communities and developing them?
Speaker 3 (36:58):
Wow, yeah, I think if you're creating places that are
authentic to you, then you'regoing to be creating great
places.
If you're putting your heartand soul and some grit into it,
there's going to be a greatoutcome.
Every city's got its own uniquechallenges and we've talked a
lot about what ours are and Ithink there's some lessons
learned from that.
(37:18):
I think there's a lot to belearned from the growth that
we've experienced and how tomanage that and how to get ahead
of it and just you know, ifyour heart's in it, it'll be
amazing.
Yeah, that's what I would say.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
One word that I like to describe the thing that
distinguishes one place fromanother is intentionality, and
the great thing aboutintentionality is that it can
cost a million dollars, or itcan cost a hundred dollars, and
so, while our community has thebenefit of tremendous investment
(37:55):
in the way that art and designhas been deployed intentionally
in the community, as apreacher's kid who grew up to be
an artist, I can assure youthat that type of intentionality
and creative placemaking canstill happen, even on modest
budgets, if it's done with, Ithink, with integrity, and if
(38:21):
it's done with imagination.
Yeah, so that's what I would say.
You know, sometimes I feel badabout talking about Northwest
Arkansas in the way that I do,because very few places in the
history of the world have hadjust the same set of conditions.
Yes, they've coalesced in thesame place.
That's created the type ofdynamic that we're talking about
(38:41):
Very few, and so you know tosay, hey, hey, you should do it
like us, you know we wouldn'tsay that you should also have
like you know a few fortune 500companies.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Yeah right, fortune one understand but so but you
know their city is unique, it'sgot a, it's got a unique place
in in the culture and thecommunity and tap into that
uniqueness in whatever way ispossible.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
Yeah, so the imaginative intentionality on
whatever budget you've got.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
And for artists who want to enhance their
communities.
What advice would you give?
Your story and how you came tobe here is that's a difficult
question.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
It may be content for an entire other podcast.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
I say I make that happen.
There are a lot of things goingon.
Speaker 4 (39:33):
Because those artists , they have to have a job.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 4 (39:36):
They have to make a living in a perfect world.
I will say very briefly, though, that, though that you know, an
art ecosystem is composed notonly of artists but of patrons
and collectors, and while thereseems to have been an upsurge of
artists in the nwa artecosystem, there has not been
(40:00):
any kind of miraculous upsurgein the patron or collecting uh
part of the economy.
So you've got a little bit of alopsided um creative economy in
northwest aren't all, with moreproducers than consumers, and
that's something that takes andI'm not a scientist, I'm not a
sociologist but that takesdecades of time to maybe begin
(40:23):
to come around.
So that's a long game.
I think Right now it's tough.
Like I said, that's a wholepodcast.
Yeah, all right, that's fair,that's fair.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Well, what do you want to leave us with, or our
viewers and listeners, aboutVerdant and what you have going
on in the future?
Speaker 4 (40:46):
More risk-taking about burden and what you have
going on in the future.
Risk taking, more risk taking.
So we began.
I think I feel like jessica isa risk taker.
She took a risk on me, justbringing me on board, um, when
she did, and um, and even justas the type of employee that I
was, um I go.
You know, I don't doarchitectural drawings.
I'm useless In my respect.
So, and that fit my personalitypretty well, and we are going
(41:12):
to continue to take risks andwe're going to continue to take
our lumps and we're going tocontinue to.
I'm a big fan of failure andgrowth, you know.
I continue to.
I'm a big fan of failure andgross, you know together it's
not a whole lot I like aboutspace s or space x or Elon Musk,
but I get the like continuallyblowing up rockets, because you
(41:37):
learn something every time whenyou blow up a rocket this is
true although he has a lot ofmoney to do that.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Right, I get it.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
So we'd like to really scale back our failure.
Speaker 4 (41:48):
Yeah, we try to mitigate that, that's fair.
Yeah, it's quite as high risk,it's fact.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Well, this is amazing and thought-provoking and I
think viewers and listeners aregoing to take back some of what
they've thought about and reallynotice more and and and become
more active in in trying to be aan influence portion of what
creative space making iscreative place making.
(42:16):
Ken, you want to wrap it up.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Yeah, first, again, thank you for your time today.
I think that, uh, laterlisteners will have a better
understanding.
I have a better understanding.
I have a better understandingof how it all comes together and
it's not just magical and it'snot always planned.
Sometimes it is kind of justthe right timing and things of
that nature.
But, yes, we do want to saythank you.
I want to thank you to ourlisteners.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Yes, and viewers.
Speaker 4 (42:41):
Also thank you to our listeners.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
Yes, and please subscribe listeners and viewers
so that you can learn more, andif there are materials related
to what we've talked about todaythat you want us to put in our
website, we'd be happy to dothat.
And listeners and viewers, youcan see that at
fourBarsPodcastcom.
Have a great day.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Thank you.
The 4 Bars Podcast has beenbrought to you by Edges Inc.
A growth advisory firm based inBentonville, arkansas.
I founded the company in 2001.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Edges promotes growth , people, companies and ideas.
Our team collaboration tool,called Interface Methods, is a
basis for teams to work togethermore collaboratively,
understand each other and acceptdifferences and address
challenges together.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
We also started a nonprofit called Unform your
Bias.
We teach kids and their adultinfluencers how to utilize
storytelling as a means toreduce bias in the world.
We hope you'll check us out,subscribe to our podcast and
look at our website.
Popular Podcasts
Fudd Around And Find Out
UConn basketball star Azzi Fudd brings her championship swag to iHeart Women’s Sports with Fudd Around and Find Out, a weekly podcast that takes fans along for the ride as Azzi spends her final year of college trying to reclaim the National Championship and prepare to be a first round WNBA draft pick. Ever wonder what it’s like to be a world-class athlete in the public spotlight while still managing schoolwork, friendships and family time? It’s time to Fudd Around and Find Out!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.