June 26, 2025 • 29 mins
The way we process information fundamentally shapes how we communicate, collaborate, and connect with others. In this illuminating episode, we dive deep into the "Tree vs Forest" dimension of the Interface Methods connectivity tool – exploring the profound difference between internal processors (Trees) who prefer thinking before speaking, and external processors (Forests) who develop their thoughts through conversation.
This distinction goes far beyond simple personality differences. As we explain, these processing preferences are behavioral, not hardwired, meaning anyone can adapt their approach once they understand the dynamics at play. Through compelling real-world examples, we reveal how these different processing styles can either create friction or foster remarkable collaboration when properly understood.
We share a fascinating case study of a high-level executive relationship nearly derailed by this very communication gap, and how simple awareness transformed their collaboration. You'll discover that neither style inherently predicts success – in one organization's sales team, top performers were evenly split between internal and external processors. The key difference? The top performers understood how to leverage their natural preferences while adapting to others.
For team leaders, this episode offers practical strategies to ensure balanced participation that honors both processing styles, including a revealing poker chip exercise that transforms group dynamics. Sales professionals and customer service representatives will gain valuable insights for recognizing and adapting to customer processing preferences, creating more productive interactions.
Whether you're building teams, managing relationships, or simply trying to connect more effectively with the people in your life, understanding the Tree vs Forest dynamic will transform how you communicate. Visit getedges.com/inter-face-methods to learn more about our connectivity tool and discover resources to help you build stronger, more effective connections.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How do I need to look at data?
Am I going to be output bigpicture?
Yeah, I need to details.
He's able to give him thatgranular detail, or he was able
to stay up high, yeah, so thetool really does enlighten
people and help them feel morecomfortable.
That was one of the things hesaid is he helped him to feel
more prepared for, morecomfortable, and that's why he
had very strong results and he'sstill there again today With so
(00:23):
top performer.
Welcome to the fourars podcast.
I'm Ken Leith and I'm Patti.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Leith, we're your hosts for some compelling
dialogue, encouraging ourlisteners to strengthen their
connections.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
And build strong communities, lifting each other
up and connecting in ways thatmatter.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
We named the podcast 4 Bars as a reference to how
hard we work to find a 4 Barsconnection on our devices.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
And we wondered what could happen with relationships
if we worked as hard atconnecting.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Let's find out.
Hi, welcome back to 4BARspodcast.
I'm Patti Lee co-host and Ihave with me yes, and I'm your
co-host.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Ken Lee, yeah, glad you'd be back.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
We've gotten some feedback that there was an
interest in and a desire to hearmore about our connectivity
tool.
A few weeks back we put out anepisode where we talked about
the importance of understandingthe level of detail of the
individual that you are speakingwith and really connecting your
(01:19):
message to reach their detaillevel needs.
You may remember we called itchanging leaf and evergreen.
There are two other componentsto this tool that help people
connect, and so we're going totalk about the second component
to this tool.
We call this preference tree andforest, because there are
(01:43):
people who have a preference toprocess their thinking
externally we call them forests.
They have a preference to bearound others.
And then there are folks whoprefer to do their thinking
internally before speaking outloud, and we call them trees.
That preference is for thatanalysis to take place in their
(02:05):
heads, and this really doesimpact how we communicate.
So we thought we'd dig a littlebit deeper into that and we'll
do another episode where we getinto just the basic concepts of
influence.
But, hem, can you share alittle bit about this particular
dimension of our connectivity,why it's important?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yeah, and just for our visitors, what we have here
today these are part of a toolthat Patty created with actually
with a client was the firstiteration of it back in 2001.
No, excuse me, four, yeah, 2004.
So it's been quite a while.
Yeah, I've been through a lotof iterations and the tool is
(02:49):
called interface methods and soit really as Patty said it's.
It is a behavioral instrument.
So beauty of that means is notin our wiring or the way we're
wired in our DNA so we can learnquickly about and we can adapt.
And in this particular area,when we talk about the fact that
someone's an internal processorversus an external processor,
(03:11):
some of those characteristicsare that the internal processor
may not be comfortable if theyare asked to come in and
brainstorm yeah, unless they'vebeen given an agenda up front or
if they're a subject matterexpert to that.
So they just have to have alittle time.
And sometimes they get judgedif they don't have an agenda.
They think it through becausethey're not quite ready.
During a meeting and we'veactually heard people share
(03:31):
things like well, they wereusing up oxygen in the room and
they don't care about what we'retrying to do.
None of which is true,absolutely, they just need to
have it where they arecomfortable with that.
Absolutely, they just need tohave it where they are
comfortable with that.
And, conversely, you have theperson, as you identified, who
is the forest, and that personis very comfortable at having
(03:52):
dialogue on the fly.
I like to think of them when Ishare with people, and I'm
talking about these.
Is that internal processor?
They are just consuming itinternally, but then they're
ready to share and that externalprocessor?
They're the people you seewalking around the office or
wherever it may be.
They're collecting pieces of apuzzle that they're working on,
(04:14):
whether it's solving a problem,taking their strategy higher,
whatever it may be, and each ofthose pieces are key to them to
come up and develop their ideaand take it from an idea and, if
you think about it, an analogyis going from zero to 60, or
from concept to reality andthey're able to do that.
And then, when we get to theend of that, two different
(04:35):
methodologies how do they cometogether?
How does that look and what aresome of the bumps?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
that people have to worry about and maybe make sure
that they don't fall into yeah,so so I want to.
Before answering that, I wantto kind of dissect it a little
bit and say that it's importantto know what your preference is,
and most of you watching thisare going to have a good, a good
feel for what that is.
If you aren't sure, youprobably like a little of both.
You can take the tool and learnwhat degree you have that
(05:08):
preference.
But I think it's also reallyimportant, in addition to
understanding myself, is tounderstand that these
differences exist on anycommunity or team or even inside
of your family whereconversations are taking place.
Right, and then getting back toyour questions, around that, I
(05:29):
think it is kind of how can Icontribute differently and how
can we allocate for that in agroup?
So I think, from an individualstandpoint, if I have a
preference to think thingsthrough first, if I am more
internal in my focus and we callthis that I prefer the tree
(05:53):
method, if I have that, what Ineed to do to participate well
with people who don't is, firstof all, not judge them don't is,
first of all, not judge themand, second of all, understand
that in any group meeting Imight be asked to participate.
So do your best to find outwhat's going to get addressed in
(06:15):
a meeting and prepare inadvance so that when the time
comes to discuss some of theseideas, some of these ideas, you
have that opportunity right andI'll speak to the team and in a
larger group here in a minute.
But let's say that you are anindividual who prefers that
external focus, that what I wantto do is talk it out loud while
(06:39):
I'm thinking about it.
So people who prefer the treemethod do that analysis in their
head before they talk.
People who prefer the forestmethod talk through those things
, and the way that they caninteract with people who don't
is, first of all, not to judgethem, to understand that they
(07:02):
need thought time and, second ofall, is to say, hey, I'm just
thinking out loud, and here'sthe reason for that.
When a person who has thatforest preference starts talking
about something, if they'retalking to somebody who has a
tree preference, that personwill think they're done at the
end.
When they're not, they arestill thinking about it and each
(07:23):
conversation changes it.
The other thing that you reallywant to do is challenge
yourself to finalize thatdiscussion so that you can
create a go-do and then bereally specific with people
around you what that go-do mightbe.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
No, that's well said, and one of the things people
will ask us it's like well, ifI'm not getting you touched on
this, if I'm not getting what Iknow, what do I do?
Well, we tell people our method, also, our preferred style.
It is not necessarily an excusebefore we all say, well, if I
(08:05):
didn't get it, what do I do?
Well, one thing that internalprocesses can do is recap the
highlights of what they pickedup on and what they've had time
to think of after that meetingand send it out to the people
who are were attending, whichgives them several things.
Number one gives them morepieces of data and it can add to
the richness of that meeting.
Secondarily, it will also letpeople know that you have
(08:25):
something to offer, you areengaged, and that you then have
them probably come into you andsay how can we get that during
the meeting, where we can allbuild off of it during the
meeting.
For those people who aredifferent, who are more big
picture and external not bigpicture, but more external-
processes.
So that part there is somethingthat we can all pick up and very
easily do if we find ourselvesin that scenario.
(08:47):
In that situation, if we are anexternal processor one of the
times I'll talk to and I'm avery big external processor and
you are an external processor itis that sometimes we have to
take a breath and give theinternal processors time to
share.
Also and we've actually hadeven within our own team years
ago, we had someone say I havesomething to contribute, but the
(09:11):
room was going so quick, theyneeded time, they needed some
time.
So when someone does notcontribute and you want to make
sure that you don't, make surethat we have intentionality
around, making sure thateveryone has a voice in the room
at that point in time, and ifthey're not ready, it's okay.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
And I want to speak a little bit to the group
dynamics.
You sort of mentioned it, butwhen you bring a group of people
together, it's highly likelyit's not always going to be the
case, but it's highly likelyyou're going to have people in
that group that have bothpreferences right, absolutely.
And I will say that justbecause a person is outgoing
(09:48):
doesn't mean that they prefer totalk through things out loud.
So there is, on this tool, abig difference between
extroversion and introversion.
On a tool like, say, theMyers-Briggs and the tree forest
preference, I personally am amore introverted person.
On the Myers-Briggs and thetree forest preference, I
personally am a more introvertedperson on the Myers-Briggs.
(10:08):
I like my downtime, I like mycave time and that helps me
replenish my energy.
But I'm also a forestpreference.
So my behavioral preference isto talk through the things that
I'm thinking about.
They get better through thatdialogue.
But the individualunderstanding of this is it's
(10:33):
really important not to attachcharacteristics to an individual
that really might not be thereAgreed.
So a person who wants to thinkthrough things in advance isn't
necessarily more introverted,and so you can't always tell by
how outgoing an individual isReally.
What it comes down to is howwilling is a person to talk
(10:55):
through something that theyhaven't given much thought to?
And people who prefer theforest want that.
People who prefer the tree arehighly uncomfortable with that.
Neither is right or wrong, andin a group, both dynamics are
going to be at play.
When we do our team building,utilizing this tool to help
(11:18):
those team members build thestronger connections, we do an
activity where we put a topic onthe table that is somewhat
familiar, because we don't wantpeople who have the tree
preference to not be able tocontribute at all but they
haven't had a lot of time tothink through it, and we give
everybody five or eight pokerchips, depending on how much
(11:41):
time we have.
And when an individual speaksfor every sentence they say they
have to play a chip.
Yes, so what that does is in agroup of eight or 10 people, it
spreads out the contribution andmany of our teams walk away
saying, hey, this is a reallygreat strategy.
Let's publish good details inadvance so everybody can prepare
(12:02):
and let's really balance theinput and contributions so that
everybody has a chance to dothat, because in a team that is,
one of the biggest challengesto collaboration is people who
prefer the forest will talk,while people who prefer the tree
will listen.
Both of us are doing that very,very well, and yet what happens
(12:27):
is people who prefer the treewill not contribute to those
ideas unless there's been areally good agenda that they've
had access to and have had timeto prepare.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
No, and that makes total sense and we see this play
out on a regular basis inreality.
And then when we do a groupenvironment, like you were
saying and teaching this, you'lleven see some of the forest put
a chip in and slide it back.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
We were in one where we used pennies and they were
buying them.
Forests were buying chips fromtrees.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
So it is a preference , and you mentioned that you are
an introvert on Myers-Briggs.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Yeah, I like my downtime.
I wake up in the morning, Iwant my coffee, my meditation
time, the time with the puppy.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
You're great in front of clients, with them all day
long, but at the end of the day,to your point, when you get
home, you're ready to go.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
I want to listen to a book or read a book for a
little while.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yes, and the difference there is, myself
being the very strong porist andthe extrovert at the.
You know, go through the wholeday.
Interaction, and you know it'sgood interaction that makes me
feel good and energy.
And I go home and it's likewhat's next?
Yeah, who else do I get toengage with?
Yeah, and that's the uniquedifference of people who have
(13:40):
different styles.
In this case, you know wherethe Myers-Briggs component of
this comes in and comparing itto the differences of them.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yeah, so Myers-Briggs is a personality tool and the
interface methods tool is basedon behavioral science, and we
chose to do it that way becausewe wanted to highlight things
that really do impact teamdynamics but that are very
adaptable.
So if I determine that you areprocessing different from me, I
(14:11):
can do adaptations behaviorallyto help our interactions be
smoother.
Whereas on a personality tool,we are kind of who we are and we
can proudly wear that badge andpeople will understand that.
But it's not really built ondimensions that a person can
change, and that's the bigdifference between a personality
tool and a behavioral tool.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Because one is requiring change and the other
is adapting Right.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Give people an understanding ofthis too.
It is you know, we're talkingabout some things that are we've
seen kind of vaguely but reallife situations.
It plays out and there can bereally what's done well, really
(14:53):
strong communication, reallystrong collaboration for better
outcomes, um, but when it can go, sometimes you have to pay
attention to that.
Years ago we were working.
You'll remember this we had aclient and that client had
worked and been part of this,utilizing this tool for a while
and they were very comfortablewith it.
And we were having a I think wewere having a meeting one day
(15:17):
and we got a call from one ofthe presidents of that company
and that president said well,I'd like to talk to you.
Come to my office when you geta chance.
So we set a meeting, went andsat down and talked and what was
shared was that the presidenthad taken someone who was in a
vice president's role and haddecided they were doing a great
job.
There was an opening,interviewed other people and
(15:38):
then this person, this candidate, got the job.
And so this candidate gotpromoted to the SVP role, which
was now reporting directly tothe president, whereas it wasn't
reporting to a different personprior, of course, to an SVP.
And now the reason we got thecall is that the president said
something's happened,something's wrong, and I think
(16:00):
the comment was I think I mayhave done something to hurt this
person's career.
So that's very serious.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Within an organization at that level.
Yeah, and so what happened fromthere was, the conversation we
had was in asking questionsabout what's changed, and then
one of the biggest changes wewere told is that the person was
always very reliable,understood the business, and now
, since the change, this personwas going in and trying to enact
(16:25):
on things that hadn't beensettled, they hadn't been
finalized, they were in theearly stages of discussion, and
when we went and talked to theperson who had been promoted I'm
going to ask you to kind offill in some blanks there, if
you would.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
So the individual who had been promoted had a
preference for the tree methodand wanted to think through
things before speaking andwasn't participating as much in
ideation sessions as the personin the president's role wanted
them to be.
So that was one challenge andthe person in the president's
(17:02):
role articulated that.
But another challenge was thatbecause a person with a tree
preference is done when theyspeak, they assume you have done
that due diligence as well, andthen you also are done when you
speak and so we are ready tomove ahead.
That was not the case.
The president was stillarticulating and ideating and
(17:24):
trying to get the otherindividual to participate and
they weren't done.
And essentially what that persontold us was they will say to do
something and then come backand say they didn't say that.
And that was our first clue.
Like this is a simpledifference in how you want to
(17:47):
process.
So we gave the person who hadjust been promoted some tips
around preparation and andasking are we ready to move
ahead?
Which actually is good for thesituation to ask that question
because it helps bring closureto the ideation.
And then we gave tips to thepresident that said make sure
(18:08):
you're saying I'm just talkingout loud and make sure that you
are giving that individualenough preparation time to
participate.
So these were big things thatwere very easy to solve once we
realized what was going on, andyet could have been a career
derailer but most certainlywould have impacted the team
(18:30):
that they were able to become,and they worked together for
many years and created so manyamazing things.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Well, not only that.
It wasn't too long ago that thepresident, we happened to be in
a meeting and the presidentsaid not prompted by us.
It wasn't too long ago that thepresident, we happened to be in
a meeting and the presidentsaid not prompted by us, but in
talking to the group, by the way, I'm just talking out loud
right now we're not done and soagain, it sticks, it's a habit
that they adapted and it worksout really well.
And again, the tools here withininterface methods, because it
(19:01):
is behavioral.
It is first off a choicebecause it's easy to learn.
So once I learn it about myself, then there are techniques that
we can utilize to identify that, even if the other person
hasn't taken interface methods,you can start to ask certain
questions.
We actually have customers whoutilize this on their KPIs and
(19:21):
they'll do it with prospects.
They'll do it with customers,with their vendor partners, and
they will ask certain questionsto know, oh, this person is more
of an external processor,they're ready to go?
Well, this person asked forsome downtime, or they're quiet
if they're not quite ready, sothey start to put on their KPIs.
I think this person is a certainarea.
So in the three areas that youmentioned earlier, that is
(19:43):
something where they can now,with good confidence, feel okay,
I can identify their three keycore areas of their behavioral
styles and preferences in thesemethods and then I can tailor my
dialogue with them.
If I do that, I have a betteropportunity to keep them in a
dialogue, better opportunity toconnect, and if I can do that,
(20:03):
then of course I can influencebetter Yep and ultimately
achieve the goals that we'relooking for.
And we do hear from thefeedback from our customers, as
we know that it makes adifference in the overall
productivity of the organizationand the relationships that they
develop across the board.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
And our customers tell us that people understand
it so well that it's so easy toadapt and they start really
respecting these differences andthen taking steps to ensure
that the collaboration can beequal across all people and that
builds a sense of welcoming andbelonging in an organization as
(20:42):
well.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Yeah, and we will be doing as you mentioned earlier
in the future.
Here we will be doing the thirdarea that we'll talk about,
which is focusing on influence.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yeah, and I want to talk a little bit about the use
of the interface methods tool insales and services,
particularly this tree forestfactor.
So I'm going to give a coupleof examples before we wrap up.
Let's say Ken is a preferredtree and I am a preferred forest
, and let's say that I am thecustomer or prospect.
(21:17):
If Ken is going to service myconcerns, provide a good
customer experience for me,provide good customer service
for me, listen to the thingsthat I'm concerned about.
I, as an external processor,I'm going to want him to engage
in that conversation discussionyes, right in the here and now
(21:41):
um.
So if your customer service umand and you're a tree and your
customer is a forest, there's afew things that you can do to
participate in that um.
One is and mostly ideal extractwhat you can in advance of the
discussion, if at all possible,from the customer so that you
(22:05):
can prepare before having them.
If you are working customerservice on a desk that is taking
a lot of calls back to back,maybe create the top 10
scenarios that you're dealingwith so that you can talk
through those scenarios on thefly with a customer who is more
external.
And a third option is for youto say I am going to need to
(22:31):
research that If you'll give mea few minutes I can get back to
you.
Or if you'll give me a few days, but make sure that you, you
know, whatever commitment youmake to them, you get back to
them in that time, right?
I think the same is if Ken is asalesperson as a tree, I am a
forest prospect.
Ken, can you speak a little bitto how that the tree can
(22:54):
prepare to do well in a salesenvironment?
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Yes, and actually I'm going to go back to reality
here.
Yeah, Again a real casescenario with a customer of ours
and the client.
In a large meeting of leadersthere was a question that came
up about well, maybe we shouldhave more people who are
external processors as salesleaders, our sales executives.
And then someone spoke up andsaid well, why is that?
(23:22):
Well, because they can connect.
Well, we asked them to do alittle research and come to find
out.
They were about 50-50 of theirtop 10 best overall salespeople,
sales executives.
They had both externalprocessors and internal
processors and in fact, numberone in the organization was a
(23:43):
very strong internal processorwho needed time to think, and we
had had the opportunity to getto know him actually out in this
field environment, meeting withtheir team.
What he did was he prepared, asyou said, in advance for
scenarios, and he said that hewasn't just for that customer
(24:03):
scenarios, and he said that hewasn't just for that customer.
He prepared based upon whatthings customers might bring up
who were not within that companybut had similar kinds of needs.
So it helped them be ultraprepared and then, because of
that, he was very at ease andvery fluid having dialogues,
change of directions thatweren't anticipated.
Because of that, he was alsovery detail-oriented.
(24:25):
Because of that, his work heput in so he could get as
granular if that person was alsoan internal processor.
But to what we talked about lasttime one of the first area that
we look at is you know, as faras how do I need to look at data
?
Am I going to be output bigpicture?
Yeah, or I need the details.
He's able to give him thatgranular detail, or he was able
(24:47):
to stay up high?
Yeah.
So the tool really doesenlighten people and help them
feel more comfortable that wasone of the things he said.
Is it helped him to feel moreprepared, more comfortable, and
that's why he had very strongresults and he's still there
again today with very strongresults Still top performer.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, and one of the things that he did was that was
one of the options I put on thetable was he had thought through
the most common scenarios andso he was very able to talk on
the fly about those things.
But let's say the tables areturned and I am the forest and
Ken is the tree, but I amselling to him or I am providing
(25:29):
customer service to him.
So if I'm providing customerservice to him, one of the
things I'm going to notice is hewill be very thoughtful in how
he puts the information outthere to me.
I'll ask questions.
He may pause before he answers.
That should be a littleindicator for us that you're
(25:51):
probably working with someonewho needs a little bit of time
to think before they talk.
Yes, two things are true aboutthat.
If you immediately startcreating possible solutions,
either in a sales interaction ora customer service interaction,
they will need some time toconsider it.
(26:11):
So allow that.
Don't expect them to jump inand give you feedback
immediately, and this is goingto be hard.
So, generally speaking, when I'ma forest selling to a person
who's a tree, it probably is atwo part interaction.
I'm going to gather informationand suggest solutions they're
(26:35):
going to need to consider it andthink about it, and we'll
follow up on a dialogue, that is, you know, later in the time
when we're providing customerservice.
If I am quickly talking throughthe solutions, how's that sound
?
They really haven't had thetime to consider it.
(26:56):
So use your ears to find theclues that say maybe they need
it and then offer that to them.
Right, and again, the morepreparation you can give them in
advance, the better thatdiscussion is going to go.
So, in a sales situation, if Iknow that I'm working with
somebody who is a treepreference, I might send them
something just before themeeting to say, hey, we're going
(27:18):
to be thinking about thesethings, or maybe a day prior, so
that there is better dialogue.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
You know, and we do that in our training and
facilitation too- we absolutelydo and, again, I think Sneak
peeks yeah, that's very, verytrue.
No, so I encourage anyone whois watching today to try this
out, try it out In a safeenvironment.
And so, if you like, go to ourwebsite to learn more at
(27:45):
interpacemethodscom and justperuse through there.
You'll get some informationthat'll give you some insights.
Again, we do have a portalthere.
You can sign up for it, and wedo have we have a student
version of that.
Yeah, that is a very low costfor those students who they
think about I'm in college orI'm getting ready to go to
college, and it helps them tounderstand how to connect better
(28:07):
.
We've actually done this withsome colleges, with their
resident directors and residentassistants, so that's something
where they can do that.
We also have services, serviceswithin that and some of the
tools we have in there.
We have video vignettes whereyou can go in and look in a
retail environment.
We have vignettes, but we alsohave some if you are looking at
(28:28):
it from a perspective of anoffice environment, so you can
connect in that way.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
The dashboard is pretty powerful, so if this is
something you want to learn moreabout, it's pretty easy to get
in.
Also, reach out to us.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
We can have a conversation with you, yes, so
again, thank you for your timetoday and we'll look forward to
seeing you soon.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, we'll look forward to it.
Have a great day.
The 4 Bars Podcast has beenbrought to you by Edges Inc.
A growth advisory firm based inBentonville, arkansas.
I founded the company in 2001.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Edges promotes growth people, companies and ideas.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Our team collaboration tool, called
Interface Methods, is a basisfor teams to work together more
collaboratively, understand eachother and accept differences
and address challenges together.
We also started a non-profitcalled Unform your Bias.
We teach kids and their adultinfluencers how to utilize
storytelling as a means toreduce bias in the world.
We hope you'll check us out,subscribe to our podcast and
look at our website.
How do I need to look at data?
Am I going to be output bigpicture?
Yeah, I need to details.
He's able to give him thatgranular detail, or he was able
to stay up high, yeah, so thetool really does enlighten
people and help them feel morecomfortable.
That was one of the things hesaid is he helped him to feel
more prepared for, morecomfortable, and that's why he
had very strong results and he'sstill there again today With so
(00:23):
top performer.
Welcome to the fourars podcast.
I'm Ken Leith and I'm Patti.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Leith, we're your hosts for some compelling
dialogue, encouraging ourlisteners to strengthen their
connections.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
And build strong communities, lifting each other
up and connecting in ways thatmatter.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
We named the podcast 4 Bars as a reference to how
hard we work to find a 4 Barsconnection on our devices.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
And we wondered what could happen with relationships
if we worked as hard atconnecting.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Let's find out.
Hi, welcome back to 4BARspodcast.
I'm Patti Lee co-host and Ihave with me yes, and I'm your
co-host.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Ken Lee, yeah, glad you'd be back.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
We've gotten some feedback that there was an
interest in and a desire to hearmore about our connectivity
tool.
A few weeks back we put out anepisode where we talked about
the importance of understandingthe level of detail of the
individual that you are speakingwith and really connecting your
(01:19):
message to reach their detaillevel needs.
You may remember we called itchanging leaf and evergreen.
There are two other componentsto this tool that help people
connect, and so we're going totalk about the second component
to this tool.
We call this preference tree andforest, because there are
(01:43):
people who have a preference toprocess their thinking
externally we call them forests.
They have a preference to bearound others.
And then there are folks whoprefer to do their thinking
internally before speaking outloud, and we call them trees.
That preference is for thatanalysis to take place in their
(02:05):
heads, and this really doesimpact how we communicate.
So we thought we'd dig a littlebit deeper into that and we'll
do another episode where we getinto just the basic concepts of
influence.
But, hem, can you share alittle bit about this particular
dimension of our connectivity,why it's important?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yeah, and just for our visitors, what we have here
today these are part of a toolthat Patty created with actually
with a client was the firstiteration of it back in 2001.
No, excuse me, four, yeah, 2004.
So it's been quite a while.
Yeah, I've been through a lotof iterations and the tool is
(02:49):
called interface methods and soit really as Patty said it's.
It is a behavioral instrument.
So beauty of that means is notin our wiring or the way we're
wired in our DNA so we can learnquickly about and we can adapt.
And in this particular area,when we talk about the fact that
someone's an internal processorversus an external processor,
(03:11):
some of those characteristicsare that the internal processor
may not be comfortable if theyare asked to come in and
brainstorm yeah, unless they'vebeen given an agenda up front or
if they're a subject matterexpert to that.
So they just have to have alittle time.
And sometimes they get judgedif they don't have an agenda.
They think it through becausethey're not quite ready.
During a meeting and we'veactually heard people share
(03:31):
things like well, they wereusing up oxygen in the room and
they don't care about what we'retrying to do.
None of which is true,absolutely, they just need to
have it where they arecomfortable with that.
Absolutely, they just need tohave it where they are
comfortable with that.
And, conversely, you have theperson, as you identified, who
is the forest, and that personis very comfortable at having
(03:52):
dialogue on the fly.
I like to think of them when Ishare with people, and I'm
talking about these.
Is that internal processor?
They are just consuming itinternally, but then they're
ready to share and that externalprocessor?
They're the people you seewalking around the office or
wherever it may be.
They're collecting pieces of apuzzle that they're working on,
(04:14):
whether it's solving a problem,taking their strategy higher,
whatever it may be, and each ofthose pieces are key to them to
come up and develop their ideaand take it from an idea and, if
you think about it, an analogyis going from zero to 60, or
from concept to reality andthey're able to do that.
And then, when we get to theend of that, two different
(04:35):
methodologies how do they cometogether?
How does that look and what aresome of the bumps?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
that people have to worry about and maybe make sure
that they don't fall into yeah,so so I want to.
Before answering that, I wantto kind of dissect it a little
bit and say that it's importantto know what your preference is,
and most of you watching thisare going to have a good, a good
feel for what that is.
If you aren't sure, youprobably like a little of both.
You can take the tool and learnwhat degree you have that
(05:08):
preference.
But I think it's also reallyimportant, in addition to
understanding myself, is tounderstand that these
differences exist on anycommunity or team or even inside
of your family whereconversations are taking place.
Right, and then getting back toyour questions, around that, I
(05:29):
think it is kind of how can Icontribute differently and how
can we allocate for that in agroup?
So I think, from an individualstandpoint, if I have a
preference to think thingsthrough first, if I am more
internal in my focus and we callthis that I prefer the tree
(05:53):
method, if I have that, what Ineed to do to participate well
with people who don't is, firstof all, not judge them don't is,
first of all, not judge themand, second of all, understand
that in any group meeting Imight be asked to participate.
So do your best to find outwhat's going to get addressed in
(06:15):
a meeting and prepare inadvance so that when the time
comes to discuss some of theseideas, some of these ideas, you
have that opportunity right andI'll speak to the team and in a
larger group here in a minute.
But let's say that you are anindividual who prefers that
external focus, that what I wantto do is talk it out loud while
(06:39):
I'm thinking about it.
So people who prefer the treemethod do that analysis in their
head before they talk.
People who prefer the forestmethod talk through those things
, and the way that they caninteract with people who don't
is, first of all, not to judgethem, to understand that they
(07:02):
need thought time and, second ofall, is to say, hey, I'm just
thinking out loud, and here'sthe reason for that.
When a person who has thatforest preference starts talking
about something, if they'retalking to somebody who has a
tree preference, that personwill think they're done at the
end.
When they're not, they arestill thinking about it and each
(07:23):
conversation changes it.
The other thing that you reallywant to do is challenge
yourself to finalize thatdiscussion so that you can
create a go-do and then bereally specific with people
around you what that go-do mightbe.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
No, that's well said, and one of the things people
will ask us it's like well, ifI'm not getting you touched on
this, if I'm not getting what Iknow, what do I do?
Well, we tell people our method, also, our preferred style.
It is not necessarily an excusebefore we all say, well, if I
(08:05):
didn't get it, what do I do?
Well, one thing that internalprocesses can do is recap the
highlights of what they pickedup on and what they've had time
to think of after that meetingand send it out to the people
who are were attending, whichgives them several things.
Number one gives them morepieces of data and it can add to
the richness of that meeting.
Secondarily, it will also letpeople know that you have
(08:25):
something to offer, you areengaged, and that you then have
them probably come into you andsay how can we get that during
the meeting, where we can allbuild off of it during the
meeting.
For those people who aredifferent, who are more big
picture and external not bigpicture, but more external-
processes.
So that part there is somethingthat we can all pick up and very
easily do if we find ourselvesin that scenario.
(08:47):
In that situation, if we are anexternal processor one of the
times I'll talk to and I'm avery big external processor and
you are an external processor itis that sometimes we have to
take a breath and give theinternal processors time to
share.
Also and we've actually hadeven within our own team years
ago, we had someone say I havesomething to contribute, but the
(09:11):
room was going so quick, theyneeded time, they needed some
time.
So when someone does notcontribute and you want to make
sure that you don't, make surethat we have intentionality
around, making sure thateveryone has a voice in the room
at that point in time, and ifthey're not ready, it's okay.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
And I want to speak a little bit to the group
dynamics.
You sort of mentioned it, butwhen you bring a group of people
together, it's highly likelyit's not always going to be the
case, but it's highly likelyyou're going to have people in
that group that have bothpreferences right, absolutely.
And I will say that justbecause a person is outgoing
(09:48):
doesn't mean that they prefer totalk through things out loud.
So there is, on this tool, abig difference between
extroversion and introversion.
On a tool like, say, theMyers-Briggs and the tree forest
preference, I personally am amore introverted person.
On the Myers-Briggs and thetree forest preference, I
personally am a more introvertedperson on the Myers-Briggs.
(10:08):
I like my downtime, I like mycave time and that helps me
replenish my energy.
But I'm also a forestpreference.
So my behavioral preference isto talk through the things that
I'm thinking about.
They get better through thatdialogue.
But the individualunderstanding of this is it's
(10:33):
really important not to attachcharacteristics to an individual
that really might not be thereAgreed.
So a person who wants to thinkthrough things in advance isn't
necessarily more introverted,and so you can't always tell by
how outgoing an individual isReally.
What it comes down to is howwilling is a person to talk
(10:55):
through something that theyhaven't given much thought to?
And people who prefer theforest want that.
People who prefer the tree arehighly uncomfortable with that.
Neither is right or wrong, andin a group, both dynamics are
going to be at play.
When we do our team building,utilizing this tool to help
(11:18):
those team members build thestronger connections, we do an
activity where we put a topic onthe table that is somewhat
familiar, because we don't wantpeople who have the tree
preference to not be able tocontribute at all but they
haven't had a lot of time tothink through it, and we give
everybody five or eight pokerchips, depending on how much
(11:41):
time we have.
And when an individual speaksfor every sentence they say they
have to play a chip.
Yes, so what that does is in agroup of eight or 10 people, it
spreads out the contribution andmany of our teams walk away
saying, hey, this is a reallygreat strategy.
Let's publish good details inadvance so everybody can prepare
(12:02):
and let's really balance theinput and contributions so that
everybody has a chance to dothat, because in a team that is,
one of the biggest challengesto collaboration is people who
prefer the forest will talk,while people who prefer the tree
will listen.
Both of us are doing that very,very well, and yet what happens
(12:27):
is people who prefer the treewill not contribute to those
ideas unless there's been areally good agenda that they've
had access to and have had timeto prepare.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
No, and that makes total sense and we see this play
out on a regular basis inreality.
And then when we do a groupenvironment, like you were
saying and teaching this, you'lleven see some of the forest put
a chip in and slide it back.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
We were in one where we used pennies and they were
buying them.
Forests were buying chips fromtrees.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
So it is a preference , and you mentioned that you are
an introvert on Myers-Briggs.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Yeah, I like my downtime.
I wake up in the morning, Iwant my coffee, my meditation
time, the time with the puppy.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
You're great in front of clients, with them all day
long, but at the end of the day,to your point, when you get
home, you're ready to go.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
I want to listen to a book or read a book for a
little while.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yes, and the difference there is, myself
being the very strong porist andthe extrovert at the.
You know, go through the wholeday.
Interaction, and you know it'sgood interaction that makes me
feel good and energy.
And I go home and it's likewhat's next?
Yeah, who else do I get toengage with?
Yeah, and that's the uniquedifference of people who have
(13:40):
different styles.
In this case, you know wherethe Myers-Briggs component of
this comes in and comparing itto the differences of them.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yeah, so Myers-Briggs is a personality tool and the
interface methods tool is basedon behavioral science, and we
chose to do it that way becausewe wanted to highlight things
that really do impact teamdynamics but that are very
adaptable.
So if I determine that you areprocessing different from me, I
(14:11):
can do adaptations behaviorallyto help our interactions be
smoother.
Whereas on a personality tool,we are kind of who we are and we
can proudly wear that badge andpeople will understand that.
But it's not really built ondimensions that a person can
change, and that's the bigdifference between a personality
tool and a behavioral tool.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Because one is requiring change and the other
is adapting Right.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Give people an understanding ofthis too.
It is you know, we're talkingabout some things that are we've
seen kind of vaguely but reallife situations.
It plays out and there can bereally what's done well, really
(14:53):
strong communication, reallystrong collaboration for better
outcomes, um, but when it can go, sometimes you have to pay
attention to that.
Years ago we were working.
You'll remember this we had aclient and that client had
worked and been part of this,utilizing this tool for a while
and they were very comfortablewith it.
And we were having a I think wewere having a meeting one day
(15:17):
and we got a call from one ofthe presidents of that company
and that president said well,I'd like to talk to you.
Come to my office when you geta chance.
So we set a meeting, went andsat down and talked and what was
shared was that the presidenthad taken someone who was in a
vice president's role and haddecided they were doing a great
job.
There was an opening,interviewed other people and
(15:38):
then this person, this candidate, got the job.
And so this candidate gotpromoted to the SVP role, which
was now reporting directly tothe president, whereas it wasn't
reporting to a different personprior, of course, to an SVP.
And now the reason we got thecall is that the president said
something's happened,something's wrong, and I think
(16:00):
the comment was I think I mayhave done something to hurt this
person's career.
So that's very serious.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Within an organization at that level.
Yeah, and so what happened fromthere was, the conversation we
had was in asking questionsabout what's changed, and then
one of the biggest changes wewere told is that the person was
always very reliable,understood the business, and now
, since the change, this personwas going in and trying to enact
(16:25):
on things that hadn't beensettled, they hadn't been
finalized, they were in theearly stages of discussion, and
when we went and talked to theperson who had been promoted I'm
going to ask you to kind offill in some blanks there, if
you would.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
So the individual who had been promoted had a
preference for the tree methodand wanted to think through
things before speaking andwasn't participating as much in
ideation sessions as the personin the president's role wanted
them to be.
So that was one challenge andthe person in the president's
(17:02):
role articulated that.
But another challenge was thatbecause a person with a tree
preference is done when theyspeak, they assume you have done
that due diligence as well, andthen you also are done when you
speak and so we are ready tomove ahead.
That was not the case.
The president was stillarticulating and ideating and
(17:24):
trying to get the otherindividual to participate and
they weren't done.
And essentially what that persontold us was they will say to do
something and then come backand say they didn't say that.
And that was our first clue.
Like this is a simpledifference in how you want to
(17:47):
process.
So we gave the person who hadjust been promoted some tips
around preparation and andasking are we ready to move
ahead?
Which actually is good for thesituation to ask that question
because it helps bring closureto the ideation.
And then we gave tips to thepresident that said make sure
(18:08):
you're saying I'm just talkingout loud and make sure that you
are giving that individualenough preparation time to
participate.
So these were big things thatwere very easy to solve once we
realized what was going on, andyet could have been a career
derailer but most certainlywould have impacted the team
(18:30):
that they were able to become,and they worked together for
many years and created so manyamazing things.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Well, not only that.
It wasn't too long ago that thepresident, we happened to be in
a meeting and the presidentsaid not prompted by us.
It wasn't too long ago that thepresident, we happened to be in
a meeting and the presidentsaid not prompted by us, but in
talking to the group, by the way, I'm just talking out loud
right now we're not done and soagain, it sticks, it's a habit
that they adapted and it worksout really well.
And again, the tools here withininterface methods, because it
(19:01):
is behavioral.
It is first off a choicebecause it's easy to learn.
So once I learn it about myself, then there are techniques that
we can utilize to identify that, even if the other person
hasn't taken interface methods,you can start to ask certain
questions.
We actually have customers whoutilize this on their KPIs and
(19:21):
they'll do it with prospects.
They'll do it with customers,with their vendor partners, and
they will ask certain questionsto know, oh, this person is more
of an external processor,they're ready to go?
Well, this person asked forsome downtime, or they're quiet
if they're not quite ready, sothey start to put on their KPIs.
I think this person is a certainarea.
So in the three areas that youmentioned earlier, that is
(19:43):
something where they can now,with good confidence, feel okay,
I can identify their three keycore areas of their behavioral
styles and preferences in thesemethods and then I can tailor my
dialogue with them.
If I do that, I have a betteropportunity to keep them in a
dialogue, better opportunity toconnect, and if I can do that,
(20:03):
then of course I can influencebetter Yep and ultimately
achieve the goals that we'relooking for.
And we do hear from thefeedback from our customers, as
we know that it makes adifference in the overall
productivity of the organizationand the relationships that they
develop across the board.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
And our customers tell us that people understand
it so well that it's so easy toadapt and they start really
respecting these differences andthen taking steps to ensure
that the collaboration can beequal across all people and that
builds a sense of welcoming andbelonging in an organization as
(20:42):
well.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Yeah, and we will be doing as you mentioned earlier
in the future.
Here we will be doing the thirdarea that we'll talk about,
which is focusing on influence.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yeah, and I want to talk a little bit about the use
of the interface methods tool insales and services,
particularly this tree forestfactor.
So I'm going to give a coupleof examples before we wrap up.
Let's say Ken is a preferredtree and I am a preferred forest
, and let's say that I am thecustomer or prospect.
(21:17):
If Ken is going to service myconcerns, provide a good
customer experience for me,provide good customer service
for me, listen to the thingsthat I'm concerned about.
I, as an external processor,I'm going to want him to engage
in that conversation discussionyes, right in the here and now
(21:41):
um.
So if your customer service umand and you're a tree and your
customer is a forest, there's afew things that you can do to
participate in that um.
One is and mostly ideal extractwhat you can in advance of the
discussion, if at all possible,from the customer so that you
(22:05):
can prepare before having them.
If you are working customerservice on a desk that is taking
a lot of calls back to back,maybe create the top 10
scenarios that you're dealingwith so that you can talk
through those scenarios on thefly with a customer who is more
external.
And a third option is for youto say I am going to need to
(22:31):
research that If you'll give mea few minutes I can get back to
you.
Or if you'll give me a few days, but make sure that you, you
know, whatever commitment youmake to them, you get back to
them in that time, right?
I think the same is if Ken is asalesperson as a tree, I am a
forest prospect.
Ken, can you speak a little bitto how that the tree can
(22:54):
prepare to do well in a salesenvironment?
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Yes, and actually I'm going to go back to reality
here.
Yeah, Again a real casescenario with a customer of ours
and the client.
In a large meeting of leadersthere was a question that came
up about well, maybe we shouldhave more people who are
external processors as salesleaders, our sales executives.
And then someone spoke up andsaid well, why is that?
(23:22):
Well, because they can connect.
Well, we asked them to do alittle research and come to find
out.
They were about 50-50 of theirtop 10 best overall salespeople,
sales executives.
They had both externalprocessors and internal
processors and in fact, numberone in the organization was a
(23:43):
very strong internal processorwho needed time to think, and we
had had the opportunity to getto know him actually out in this
field environment, meeting withtheir team.
What he did was he prepared, asyou said, in advance for
scenarios, and he said that hewasn't just for that customer
(24:03):
scenarios, and he said that hewasn't just for that customer.
He prepared based upon whatthings customers might bring up
who were not within that companybut had similar kinds of needs.
So it helped them be ultraprepared and then, because of
that, he was very at ease andvery fluid having dialogues,
change of directions thatweren't anticipated.
Because of that, he was alsovery detail-oriented.
(24:25):
Because of that, his work heput in so he could get as
granular if that person was alsoan internal processor.
But to what we talked about lasttime one of the first area that
we look at is you know, as faras how do I need to look at data
?
Am I going to be output bigpicture?
Yeah, or I need the details.
He's able to give him thatgranular detail, or he was able
(24:47):
to stay up high?
Yeah.
So the tool really doesenlighten people and help them
feel more comfortable that wasone of the things he said.
Is it helped him to feel moreprepared, more comfortable, and
that's why he had very strongresults and he's still there
again today with very strongresults Still top performer.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, and one of the things that he did was that was
one of the options I put on thetable was he had thought through
the most common scenarios andso he was very able to talk on
the fly about those things.
But let's say the tables areturned and I am the forest and
Ken is the tree, but I amselling to him or I am providing
(25:29):
customer service to him.
So if I'm providing customerservice to him, one of the
things I'm going to notice is hewill be very thoughtful in how
he puts the information outthere to me.
I'll ask questions.
He may pause before he answers.
That should be a littleindicator for us that you're
(25:51):
probably working with someonewho needs a little bit of time
to think before they talk.
Yes, two things are true aboutthat.
If you immediately startcreating possible solutions,
either in a sales interaction ora customer service interaction,
they will need some time toconsider it.
(26:11):
So allow that.
Don't expect them to jump inand give you feedback
immediately, and this is goingto be hard.
So, generally speaking, when I'ma forest selling to a person
who's a tree, it probably is atwo part interaction.
I'm going to gather informationand suggest solutions they're
(26:35):
going to need to consider it andthink about it, and we'll
follow up on a dialogue, that is, you know, later in the time
when we're providing customerservice.
If I am quickly talking throughthe solutions, how's that sound
?
They really haven't had thetime to consider it.
(26:56):
So use your ears to find theclues that say maybe they need
it and then offer that to them.
Right, and again, the morepreparation you can give them in
advance, the better thatdiscussion is going to go.
So, in a sales situation, if Iknow that I'm working with
somebody who is a treepreference, I might send them
something just before themeeting to say, hey, we're going
(27:18):
to be thinking about thesethings, or maybe a day prior, so
that there is better dialogue.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
You know, and we do that in our training and
facilitation too- we absolutelydo and, again, I think Sneak
peeks yeah, that's very, verytrue.
No, so I encourage anyone whois watching today to try this
out, try it out In a safeenvironment.
And so, if you like, go to ourwebsite to learn more at
(27:45):
interpacemethodscom and justperuse through there.
You'll get some informationthat'll give you some insights.
Again, we do have a portalthere.
You can sign up for it, and wedo have we have a student
version of that.
Yeah, that is a very low costfor those students who they
think about I'm in college orI'm getting ready to go to
college, and it helps them tounderstand how to connect better
(28:07):
.
We've actually done this withsome colleges, with their
resident directors and residentassistants, so that's something
where they can do that.
We also have services, serviceswithin that and some of the
tools we have in there.
We have video vignettes whereyou can go in and look in a
retail environment.
We have vignettes, but we alsohave some if you are looking at
(28:28):
it from a perspective of anoffice environment, so you can
connect in that way.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
The dashboard is pretty powerful, so if this is
something you want to learn moreabout, it's pretty easy to get
in.
Also, reach out to us.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
We can have a conversation with you, yes, so
again, thank you for your timetoday and we'll look forward to
seeing you soon.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, we'll look forward to it.
Have a great day.
The 4 Bars Podcast has beenbrought to you by Edges Inc.
A growth advisory firm based inBentonville, arkansas.
I founded the company in 2001.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Edges promotes growth people, companies and ideas.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Our team collaboration tool, called
Interface Methods, is a basisfor teams to work together more
collaboratively, understand eachother and accept differences
and address challenges together.
We also started a non-profitcalled Unform your Bias.
We teach kids and their adultinfluencers how to utilize
storytelling as a means toreduce bias in the world.
We hope you'll check us out,subscribe to our podcast and
look at our website.
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