July 10, 2025 • 38 mins
Dr. Jason Walker, an internationally recognized expert with dual doctorates in psychology, pulls back the curtain on workplace bullying—a crisis affecting 75% of workers during their careers. Drawing from his own powerful personal experiences, Dr. Walker explains how workplace bullying isn't just "bad behavior" but a public health crisis costing our economy nearly a billion dollars annually.
The conversation draws crucial distinctions between proper performance management and actual bullying. "Holding people accountable is not bullying," Dr. Walker emphasizes, before detailing the true hallmarks of workplace abuse: gossiping, undermining, yelling, and creating fear. He explains how bullies often exhibit the "dark triad" personality traits—narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy—and how they're attracted to hierarchical organizations where they can exercise power.
Most disturbing is how organizations enable abusive behavior through ineffective policies. Dr. Walker reveals that when high performers or leaders are the perpetrators, "zero tolerance" policies are rarely enforced, sending a clear message: "This behavior is okay." The consequences are devastating—from cardiovascular disease and PTSD to suicide in extreme cases—with recovery taking years even after leaving the toxic environment.
For listeners currently experiencing workplace bullying, Dr. Walker offers practical strategies: document everything, seek mental health support, and find allies within the organization. The solution begins with leadership that models respect and addresses inappropriate behavior in real-time, creating cultures where psychological safety thrives.
Ready to create healthier workplace environments where everyone can thrive? Listen to our full discussion with Dr. Walker and discover how addressing workplace bullying can actually increase productivity and revenue by up to 30%.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
okay, so we're talking about something
performance baddish.
That is not bullying.
You were allowed to manage youremployees like you're required
to do that, um, unless, ofcourse, it's a targeted,
targeted approach, but, um,that's not bullying.
Holding people accountable isnot bullying.
Bullying is when you aregossiping, when you are yelling
(00:21):
at someone, you're underminingthem.
Uh, fear-based type.
It's abuse, it's abusivebehavior, and there's a big
distinction there.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome to the 4 Bars podcast.
I'm Ken Leith.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
And I'm Patti Leith.
We're your hosts for somecompelling dialogue, encouraging
our listeners to strengthentheir connections.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
And build strong communities, lifting each other
up and connecting in ways thatmatter.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
We named the podcast 4 Bars as a reference to how
hard we work to find a Four Barsconnection on our devices.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
And we wondered what could happen with relationships
if we worked as hard atconnecting.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Let's find out.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Welcome back to Four Bars.
I'm your co-host, Ken Lee.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
And I'm Patti Lee.
We'd like to welcome Dr JasonWalker.
He is the Director of Healthand Wellness Psychology and
Industrial OrganizationalPsychology graduate programs at
Adler University and an adjunctclinical professor at City
University of Seattle.
A thought leader andtrauma-informed leadership, he
holds dual doctorates in generaland clinical psychology and is
(01:21):
internationally recognized forhis work on workplace violence,
bullying and harassment.
His research reframes workplaceviolence as a public health and
safety crisis, shapingorganizational policy and
leadership practices.
Dr Walker's insights have beenfeatured in Forbes, newsweek,
(01:42):
msn, yahoo and the Globe andMail.
He has authored over 50academic publications and was
appointed a serving member ofthe Order of St John by Her
Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, oneof several national honors
awarded for his leadership andservice.
We are so excited to have himhere with us.
We're interested in justlearning a little bit about you
(02:04):
and your story and what bringsyou to this career that you've
built around this so importanttopic.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Thank you, and I appreciate that.
I grew up in actually a smallcommunity in Canada the Pacific
Northwest, canada, the PacificNorthwest and my family on my
mom's side of the family farmersIn fact, family members we
(02:32):
still have some farms On mydad's side, construction.
For the most part, my parentsworked in government and they
really pushed the importance ofeducation.
So when I left high school, Iwas able to secure a scholarship
to McMaster University where Iwas really interested in
psychology and neuroscience andone of the first people in my
(02:53):
family to go to school certainlymy immediate family and while I
was at Mac McMaster, they had acampus emergency response team,
medical response team, and so Itrained and I became a member
of that team and I really got tounderstand human behavior
differently.
So you would see people whocall 911 for help in a crisis
(03:17):
and I was really fascinated interms of how to bring some
calmness to that piece andinevitably you help people.
I enjoyed my time at Mac andthen I was at the end of my
degree.
I'm like, oh my goodness, whatam I going to do?
And so I didn't get into theprogram that I applied for and
(03:38):
one of my friends said you knowyou should apply to the
University of Toronto.
I'm like sure that's a greatidea.
In the Faculty of Social Work,I'm like I don't even know what
that means, but awesome Like itsounds, clinical like this will
be great.
And so I somehow got into theUniversity of Toronto and in the
social work program and I veryquickly, very quickly, learned
(04:03):
about the intensity and theimportance in terms of clinical
abilities to help other people.
And we had differentresidencies and when you applied
to a residency, they would rankyou, you would rank them, and
there's a certain number ofpeople that didn't get their
placement, and I happened to beone of the chosen few there.
(04:25):
And so we had to line upoutside an advisor's office and
I remember it quite distinctlyshe invited us in, or she's
invited me in.
She said what do you want to dowith your career?
I'm like, well, I would like togo to the Toronto General
Hospital and I would love towork in psychiatry and learn all
the things.
And she said, said, that isfascinating, that's amazing goal
(04:48):
.
Um, you're going to the childabuse team at the children's
hospital, like the what, the wholike, thank you very much, I
look forward to the opportunity.
And so uh went there and uh, uhreally struggled at an early
age, sounds like, was like 20 orsomething like that, dealing
with really hard stuff.
And at one point a supervisortook me aside and was like you
(05:09):
know, you're not very good atthis.
I'm like, well, thank you, likeI'm aware that I'm struggling.
But they said, you know you'reanimated with children, which
was interesting because I treatand still do I treat children to
a degree like a cat, like yougive it, attention, runs away,
you ignore it comes to you.
But she decided to teach me howto do forensic interviews with
(05:30):
children and I got pretty goodat that.
I did end up at Toronto Generalat one point and then worked for
a child protection agency andduring my time in child
protection I was injured on thejob.
I was hurt in an incident andthen encountered another really
critical incident with the child, and in those days we didn't
(05:54):
talk about PTSD, we just didn'tLike it was the year 2002.
And your job was to deal withsomething and then go back to
work.
And your job was to deal withsomething and then go back to
work.
My family and friends after thefact were like we didn't know
who you were anymore.
I would wake up in the middleof the night thinking about my
caseload and you're safe, and itwas very unhealthy.
(06:15):
However, at one point I'm like,okay, I'm done now.
Goodbye Toronto.
And I went to do a PhD in socialwork, university of Calgary.
And so I got there, knew nobody.
My supervisor was end of career.
My closest friend was likedecades older than me and I had
(06:37):
a severe mental health crisis interms of anxiety, depression,
ptsd, and I actually dropped outof my PhD.
And because I, in my mind, Ireally tied my self-worth to
that, to education, I couldn'teven tell my family.
I failed and really went andstruggled in terms of finding
(06:59):
who I was again.
And inevitably, when you'reliving with PTSD and life gets
really hard, you hit a wall.
I hit that wall, I hit thatwall hard and it took a long
time to recover.
But it was actually my dadwho's like hey, look at what
point are you going to get backup?
It doesn't matter how hard youfall.
So I was like, ok, fine.
(07:20):
So I went back to school and Igot a PhD in general psychology
and I studied workplace violence.
I was interested in how commonis it for first responders
police, fire, ambulance to bebullied at work.
And then what are theimplications of that?
And what I found was, generallyspeaking, the population of all
industries 30% of people havebeen bullied in the last six
(07:43):
months at work to some degree.
Now, think about that, themillions of people who work in
the United States.
So it's like, okay, we're abouthigh.
When you look at firstresponders, when you look at
people in academia, hierarchicalstructures, 60% identify as
being bullied in the last sixmonths.
I'm like, oh, that's a lot.
And actually 75% of people intheir career have been bullied.
(08:07):
So I'm like, okay, well, that'sinteresting and I wanted to
explore that more.
And then I thought, you know, Iprobably need more school.
So I was really interested inthe clinical side.
So I went back and I did a PsyDin clinical psych and really
got better at understandinghuman behavior through a
clinical lens, through a lens ofpathology actually.
(08:28):
And then since that time I'vededicated my career to
understanding this phenomenon.
So workplace bullying,workplace harassment, workplace
sexual abuse it's violence andit impacts almost everybody.
So I would like to not onlyidentify what it is, but I think
(08:50):
we need to change our languageand we need to reconceptualize
how we see violence in theworkplace.
It is preventable, right.
It is more than just badbehavior.
People get hurt and it's reallya public health matter because
it impacts so many people in ourcommunities.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
So that has been the emphasis and the interest, the
sheer numbers that you sharedwith us and the impact on the
human element of their lives.
The impact on a business whenit exists in a workplace is a
lot to digest.
If you could and kind of helpto ground our viewers and
(09:33):
listeners on the topic, howwould you define workplace
bullying?
What might it actually looklike?
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Thank you, Great question.
So workplace bullying,workplace harassment?
It's intentional, unwantedconduct and behavior that harms
other people and the test,however, is not whether the
person was thinking intent interms of that harm, intent in
(10:07):
terms of that harm.
But it goes back to does any?
Would a reasonable personconsider the behavior of that
bully unreasonable and unwanted?
So, whether that's someonegossiping about you in the
workplace or withholding ofinformation right so you can't
do your job, it can be.
Not everyone yells right Like.
There's different ways to go toperpetrate that behavior.
It can be smiling to your facein a meeting and cutting you at
(10:31):
the knees after.
It can be anything from beingyelled at to being physically
assaulted.
It can be unwanted sexualcomments.
It can be sexualized touching.
So there's a range of behavior,but it's a pattern.
It's not a one-off, it's apattern of sustainability and
(10:54):
the applications for that arevery severe.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Yeah, that pattern and the litmus test are
important to keep in mind if anindividual is having any tension
in the workplace, to reallyunderstand what is just normal
stress and tension and what issomething to be very concerned
about.
And that's where I think peoplewho can't draw that line
(11:19):
sometimes take it for too long.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Absolutely, and you know it's funny.
You said like draw that line,sometimes take it for too long,
absolutely, um, and you knowit's funny.
You said like draw that line,um, and that's important, uh,
that we actually we think aboutthat, we think about our
language in terms of you shouldbe able to go to work and be
safe, right, like the sundayscaries.
That's not normal.
It's just not normal behavior,like if you're afraid to go to
work on monday, there'ssomething terribly wrong, and
(11:48):
that speaks to psychologicalsafety and that speaks to
engagement and leadership.
And then what we do is we turnto hr to solve the problem right
, and it's like doesn't?
The problem is not solved byrepair, does not start with
human resources, repair startswith leadership.
And if leaders are endorsingthe behavior and if leaders are
(12:14):
promoting that high performerwho is horrible to other people,
it sends the message that thisbehavior is okay and then other
people will do it becausethey're human.
Years ago at a, conference.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
I heard a speaker talk about culture and we were
in Florida and it was abeautiful day and he said hey,
it's a beautiful day.
I'm going to lead with the onesentence you need to remember
about culture and then you cango to the beach if you want to.
But that one sentence isculture is what's rewarded
around here.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Absolutely, and culture eats strategy for life.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
So it works when you have someone that is willing to
step up in terms of addressingthe behavior, stopping a meeting
to say, you know I think I'dreally like to take a moment
here to speak to what you know,whoever just said, or if you're
talking over someone or ifyou're, it's like stopping and
addressing the behavior in realtime, right, and then modeling
(13:17):
actual behavior, actuallypositive behavior.
So what we see to a lot of mostevery organization and this is
my favorite they have a policyon bullying, right, and we have
a zero tolerance policy onbullying and for the most part,
those policies are not worth thepaper that they're written on
Because it's not enforced,especially if it's a high
(13:40):
performer or someone inleadership.
Not enforced, especially ifit's a high performer or someone
in leadership.
And then what employees learnis that not only is it not safe
to go to HR, right, with thatcomplaint, nothing's going to
happen.
Or that person, the perpetrator, guaranteed keep the job,
they'll keep their job.
Number two, you will become abigger target, you might be
(14:01):
moved to a different group, theymight even try and pay you to
go away.
And we observed that in terms ofhey, the colleague down the
hall did a complaint and Inoticed that they don't work
here anymore.
And that's the learning.
It's just wrong Like this,isn't right and it's quite mind
(14:24):
blowing.
So, and especially withorganizations like you know, we
value our people.
Okay, show me, show me that.
Because that toxic individual,that bully, that perpetrator,
damages your culture so severely, productivity goes down, some
of them being bullied.
50% of their time is lostproductivity because they're
worried about where the next,the next dig's coming from,
(14:48):
right like the next.
So some research shows it costsour economy close to a billion
dollars a year.
When you rack up loss ofproductivity, use of aap, people
going on, legal costs, all thatsort of stuff based on people
going to work and harming otherpeople, it really doesn't make
sense to me.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
If nothing else and this will come off a little bit,
maybe cynical but if nothingelse, often businesses pay
attention when they see theirbottom line as being negatively
impacted.
Pay attention when they seetheir bottom line as being
negatively impacted, but in thisscenario it doesn't sound like
that same focus is applied inthe same way Is that accurate.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
So I think that's a really great, great question,
because I think two things arehappening.
We as humans are very good atidentifying tangible things.
So if that high performer whohappens to be a bully and toxic
and all those is performingright and revenue's coming in,
we're not thinking about gee, Iwonder if that person wasn't
(15:52):
here, would others thrive andwould we actually bring in more
money?
So we're very good inorganizations about counting
cents, not dollars, and I thinkthat's part of the problem,
right, like we're very good atyou know, understanding.
Well, you know this person'sperforming at this level and
(16:14):
that's how much money we'vebrought in.
But we're looking at thissuperficial level of success
versus what would it look likeif we had a healthy, safe
culture, because I bet otherpeople would be stepping up.
In fact, data shows that whenyou deal with these problems,
productivity and revenue can goup 30%.
We're not data-driven.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
And many organizations will do a lot to
get a 30% bump.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Absolutely, I would 100%.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
We're the same, we're with you on that one for sure.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
What are some of the common traits that a workplace
bully demonstrates?
What are some of the thingsthat really are going on with
that person's behavior ormindset?
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Of course it depends, however.
Number one it's not gendered.
So men, women, there's nogender differential.
Even when it comes to all thosesexualized type of abuse in the
workplace, higher percentage ofmen are perpetrators.
It happens across gender.
So we can't really look at that.
(17:21):
There's a concept called thedark triad, and so the dark
triad is when narcissism, whichis, it is all about me, right?
The world revolves around me, Iam the reason we are so
successful and the sun rises andsets for me every day.
Okay.
Then we have Machiavellianism,and that's.
I will smile and say hello toyou while I'm stepping on your
(17:43):
neck to get ahead of you, I willdo anything to get what I want.
And then we have psychopathy,where there's some mental health
or personality issues, disorder, issues related to behavior,
when those three things cometogether and there's this lack
of empathy not's not completelydevoid, but lack of empathy.
That's typically where we seethe bullying behavior Like.
(18:06):
Those types of people areincredibly attracted to jobs
where they have a high degree ofautonomy, often in hierarchical
organizations, right, wherethere's rank or, you know let me
start that one again, I'm sorry.
So, hierarchical organizationswhere there's rank.
(18:29):
Whether it's, you know, you'rethe manager, director, vice
president, doesn't matter, right, there's that ladder to climb
where we see that a lot, andit's just prevalent everywhere.
And that's the scary part,right, it's right, it is just so
common in our workplaces.
I mean, incivility in theworkplace is people are rude.
(18:52):
Now, right, I actually don'tremember it ever being this bad
before, though, like being rudeto someone.
That's not bullying.
Bullying is these acts that areactually harming, designed to
harm, right, uh and uh.
We need to be aware of that.
The second piece and here's aquestion that I always get is uh
(19:13):
, well, what happens?
Or someone's being performancemanaged?
Okay, so we're talking aboutsomebody being performance
baddish.
That is not bullying.
You were allowed to manage youremployees like you're required
to do that, um, unless, ofcourse, it's a targeted,
targeted approach, but, um,that's not bullying.
Holding people accountable isnot bullying.
(19:35):
Bullying is when you weregossiping, when you were yelling
at someone, when you'reundermining them, fear-based
type.
It's abuse, it's abusivebehavior, and there's a big
distinction there that thatquestion comes up a lot.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Can you share an example or a story that would
illustrate what some of thelong-term psychological or
emotional impacts are on peoplewho experience this?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, thank you.
So in terms of I'm going tospeak to physical health and
mental health.
So, physical health, what isdocumented in the literature
cardiovascular disease, sleepdisturbances, high blood
pressure, headaches, theinability to concentrate they
(20:23):
have those, those, those thingswhere your nervous system is
highly engaged.
Uh, the mental health gutissues, right, gi issues, all
those things.
The sunday scary things, right.
The mental health piece of thatanxiety, depression at times,
post-traumatic stress disorder,significant sleep and eating
disturbances and, in severecases, suicide.
(20:47):
So people are killingthemselves because of the way
they're being treated at workand that's really powerful and
that that should really worrypeople.
And it's not uncommon where Ialso hear, uh, when I, when I
consult and when I'm working insome organizations, it's like
well, you know, bully, it's kindof like schoolyard bullying.
(21:09):
First of all, it's like right,and who enjoyed that?
First of all.
But there's even worse becauseit's designed to harm and abuse
other people in a place whereyou actually have the right to
go to work and be safe.
So I think, when you considerespecially the psychological
(21:33):
impact, it can last five to 10years after that bullying
incident or after you leave anorganization, and I mean those
are significant long-termeffects.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
And people need assistance to work through them,
the adhaktivats.
They need mental healthassistance generally to work
through the impact.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
And along those lines of needing some help.
When someone goes through thisand let's say then they reach
out for help and maybe theyreach out to you how long is a
recovery?
I know not one size fits all,but what's recovery like?
How long could it take forsomeone to kind of try to get
themselves back to what I wouldcall a normal life?
Speaker 1 (22:26):
um, so, and to get to that, back to that typical
trajectory right in terms ofconfidence and and identity, and
being able to manage anxiety ordepression whenever, that is
the answer, and I really I'msorry because I'm gonna say
something I tell my studentsnever to say.
It depends, right, like itreally depends, yes, uh, and it
depends on the individualthemselves.
It depends on the intensity andduration of what's happened to
them and all these other factorshappening in their lives, but
(22:50):
you're looking at long-termrecovery.
Some people are incrediblyresilient and they're able to,
like, flip a switch and okay,that's over now, and I've
compartmentalized it and I'mmoving on.
The majority of people can't,though, and I think one of the
reasons that they can't is wehave psychological contracts
with our employer, but youexpect to get paid, yeah, you
(23:13):
expect to.
You know you're going to getback, um, like all these things
that we expect from the employer.
You expect to go to work and besafe and be treated well, and
all these sorts of things.
When you're not, and thatcontract is broken and the
psychological safety is very low, almost impossible to get it
back, right, so what happens tothe next employer?
(23:35):
It's like you know, a lot of myfriends are on the dating apps
and they go on all these datesand I love hearing these stories
and I should really charge themmoney for the support that I
provide them, uh, after thesedates.
But, um, it's like, well, howabout the next one?
Because that was a disaster,right, and they're experiencing
(23:57):
that anxiety and for the nextopportunity, similar you know,
not to make light of it, butsimilar in terms of, well, can I
trust the next employer?
Right, and also, where it's youknow where I have concern.
I hear this from people it'snot as bad as the last place.
It's like that is equallytroubling, right, where it's not
(24:19):
, it's not quite as bad, it'slike, okay, so these prevalent
issues, people are likely goingto experience it again and
that's why it's such a big issue, uh, in our society yeah, so
you, you, even when you return,if you make a good recovery,
there's still the strongpossibility that I'm going to
wait for the next shoe to falland I'm going to go with
(24:41):
expectations of it will reoccur.
Yeah, yeah, and that's typicalhuman behavior, but sadly
they're probably right.
However, hopefully by that timethey'll have the tools and
awareness to know what'shappening, if it's going to
happen right, or when bullyingstarts to happen to's happening.
(25:02):
If it's going to happen right,or when bullying starts to
happen to them, if it does, howto identify it and the different
steps they can take to protectthemselves right and the
boundaries that hopefullythey've developed from from that
last experience, so moreresilient for the next
opportunity.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Generally speaking, is there a?
Is there a particular storythat you can share that really
gets into the understanding thatit's happening, dealing with it
and then recovering from it?
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Sure, so I'll use a personal example.
Okay, and you know, keep inmind, this story is not that
long ago and it did a differentjob a few years ago and I was in
a meeting and the boss wasthere and a lot of my colleagues
were in the room as well, and Ihad asked a question that I
(25:55):
felt to be reasonable, it wasrespectful.
I needed clarity on somethingactually quite important and
there was a disconnect betweenwhat was being said by the boss
and what we'd heard from anotherdepartment.
I just need to understand whichwas the true information.
And so I asked the question andthat individual then, for the
(26:18):
next five to seven minutes, whowas known to have a temper,
raised their voice, belittled mein front of my colleagues.
I felt I felt shamed, I feltembarrassed and I felt
disrespected to the point where,when that individual was done I
(26:39):
gave it a few minutes, actuallygot up and I and after I
received a text message fromthem further berating me for
undermining their authority anda few other things.
That was actually recorded andmy colleagues raised concerns
about the behavior.
(26:59):
The information went to humanresources and senior level
people and I remember sittingwith human resources and being
told well, it wasn't that badreally, was it?
I thought, ok, well, this isinteresting.
And I wasn't surprised becausethat was what I experienced in
(27:20):
that organization.
I'd watch it happen to otherpeople, and certainly not the
first person to make a complaint.
Colleagues made complaints, waspromised some sort of review.
Things stopped talking to mefor 10 months and I wasn't
(27:44):
invited to certain meetings andI was not appointed to certain
committees.
And I thought to myself youknow, it was keeping me up at
night.
I was anxious to go into work.
I would avoid when I see thatperson and again, expert in this
, an expert.
(28:05):
But when you're deep insomething, it's like I think I
know what's happening, like it'sclearly bullying, but I don't
know what to do and you can'talways jump out.
I looked for a new job and Iwas lucky and I got one.
Um, but that's when good peopleleave the organization, right.
So there there was that overtact of public humiliation.
(28:26):
And then the covert well, we'renot going to invite them to
this meeting or this receptionor this event or this committee
or whatever.
That is right.
And then the rumors and thegossip around.
We don't really want thatperson right.
And it's like for asking aquestion, because that
individual uh is a bully.
(28:48):
But what was very curious to mewas, uh, the fact, the
organization, they weren't opento addressing it, and so then
it's like, well, if I can'tchange them, I better change me,
uh, and for me it was.
Other opportunity came up, likenice, nice to know you, uh, but
it took me a couple years toactually get over that.
(29:12):
Like I was gun shy about stuff,right, so I still think about
it on occasion.
So I think that impact uh issignificant in terms of the cost
to your psychological, physicalhealth, your self-esteem, all
those things and your identity.
So, um, like those are some ofthe things that you see uh and
(29:34):
experience.
And then your colleagues, likesome are amazing, right, and
they're allies and they'resupportive.
Others are like I am going todistance myself from you because
I do not want to be associatedand become a target as well, and
then that social isolationpiece can be incredibly harming,
and that's often what we see.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
What were some of the ways that you put it in your
past, in your rear view?
What were some?
Speaker 1 (30:00):
of the ways that you put it in your past, in your
rear view.
How did I put it in the rearview?
Well, you know, I talked to mytherapist and, yes, I think
everyone should have a therapist.
They should report it.
Right, that helped.
And I also, you know, sometimesyou have to have a talk with
(30:21):
yourself in terms ofunderstanding who am I, where do
I come from, what's importantto me, what are my values.
And then I remember the momentwhere I was like would I go to
that, that person for advice?
Absolutely not.
And so how much free rent am Igoing to give this right?
Like, how much free rent?
How how long am I going to talkabout this?
Uh and and that was my, myself-talk around I, you know,
(30:44):
like fairly capable person, uhand uh, I can move on and past
that and I will never treatanybody like that right ever
right, um, and I think that wasyou know a good way to, to, to
wrap that up and put it behindme.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Yeah, that's good.
Thank you for sharing that.
It's incredibly vulnerable andtransparent of you to share that
personal story, but I think thepoint that you make with that
is it really can happen toanyone, and even though you know
what you should be doing in themoment.
It's hard to do it right,absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
And we share a lot with leaders of all levels, from
first-time leaders up toC-suite, and one of the things
that's very clear, the way asleadership really should be
structured, as we share withpeople, is every promotion I get
, every opportunity I get to goto a higher level.
(31:40):
I have more responsibility.
But that real responsibility wetalked to first is ensuring the
success of those who really areunder our care, so to speak,
and our watch to help buildtheir success.
And here we're looking at thetotal converse of that and the
fact that people are not onlynot trying to ensure their
(32:02):
success, they're in some waystearing that down, the
opportunities for that.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Absolutely Trying to destroy them, right?
They try to destroy careers,which is also abuse, right?
Because you don't like somebody, yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Yeah, and it's a power struggle.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
It is all it always comes down.
Thank you for saying that itcomes down to power.
Uh, and you know, some peopletalk about, well, that that
person must have low self-esteem.
Sure, absolutely, and they'reprobably narcissistic with
macabre lean tendencies, um, butyou know, really, uh, I think
it's, it's about power.
(32:39):
Yes, right, who does I powerover and how can I retain it?
And I can do that by beingabusive, because fear-based
leadership, right, you'll neverhave the loyalty of the people
around you.
It works, though?
It'll work, but I can tell yourespect-based leadership,
(33:00):
servant-based leadership,transformational leadership.
Those people respect you,follow you and be loyal to you
in a much different way.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
You're absolutely right.
We had the opportunity recentlyin a podcast to have on a
leader from an organization andwe've known him for quite a
while.
But he is known in theworkplace for being a open door
leader and it doesn't matterwhat area of the company,
whether you're on directly underhis responsibility or someone
(33:29):
else's, he always has an opendoor and he is a connector and a
builder.
So when I say builder, he wantspeople to succeed and he shared
with us some of his things.
First is, first and foremost,is to be a good listener, and to
listen first, then ask goodquestions in order to help
provide the best input.
(33:49):
He describes himself as someonewho will communicate directly,
but he does it with goodintentions and a heart for
wanting to ensure that success.
So it's the exact opposite ofwhat we're talking about today's
topic, and it's good to knowthey're out there.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
You know being able to listen, to understand versus
listening to respond issomething that takes people a
long time to do and once you getthere you know inevitably
people want to feel heard andthey want to feel respected.
You can disagree, but it's howyou communicate that and if you
do it with compassion andunderstanding and you're curious
(34:27):
, it's a lot different thanattacking sharp on occasion.
It's also okay to apologize forthat right.
So people know that's not whoyou are and if you make a
(34:54):
mistake, own it, fix it.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
People respect that right.
So, yeah, no, I appreciate thatstory.
Thank you.
Well, as we wrap up this firstpart and Dr Walker will be back
for a part two on this, where weget deeper into the systemic
challenges that an organizationfaces, what advice can you give
to our listeners and viewers whothink they may be witnessing or
(35:15):
being targeted by workplacebullying?
What are some of the thingsthat they can do?
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Sure, thank you.
Targeted by workplace bullying.
What are some of the thingsthat they can do?
Sure, thank you, and I say thisto the people who are targeted
and to witnesses of it like,believe it, it likely is
happening.
Yes, and you know, it's not you, it's them.
First of all, and you know someof things that we, you really
(35:45):
need to start doing isdocumenting in terms of time,
place, event, who was there,what was said, how did it make
you feel?
And when you document it, thenyou start to see the pattern
emerge.
Right, and when that patternemerges because bullies are
really good at trying to augmentreality, like gaslighters,
where you're like, oh, baby, itis me, like maybe it's not
(36:07):
happening, you will see it,you'll see that pattern.
Number two uh, if you're havingsome emotional uh reaction to
what's going on for you, talk toyour health care provider or
speak to someone in mentalhealth, because that will build
your resilience.
Number three find allies.
Find allies in the workplaceand they're out there, and they
(36:28):
will be there to tell you.
It is not you, it's them, I seeit too.
And you can have strategieswith that person, even in terms
of you know, well, if you knowthe boss comes and pulls me
aside in the hallway, do youmind like walking by or just
coming and standing by me, justto kind of shift that dynamic.
But there's a lot of ways wecan help each other in the
(36:49):
workplace as well.
But those are really the topthree things, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for sharing this withus.
We are so excited in the nextepisode, to go deeper into this
systemically and really look athow this is impacting
organizations, whatorganizations can do to change
their culture.
So thank you so much.
This is a tough topic to speakabout and the first time that we
met you, your passion for itand your belief in what this
(37:20):
work can do to build bettersafety in the workplace is so
compelling.
So thank you for being here andsharing them.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
And thank you for our listeners and viewers this
episode and we hope that youjoin us in part two.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Take care.
This podcast has been broughtto you by Edges Inc.
A growth advisory firm based inBentonville, arkansas.
I founded the company in 2001.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Edges promotes growth , people, companies and ideas.
Our team collaboration tool,called Interface Methods, is a
basis for teams to work togethermore collaboratively,
understand each other and acceptdifferences and address
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Speaker 3 (37:56):
We also started a nonprofit called Unform your
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We teach kids and their adultinfluencers how to utilize
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We hope you'll check us out,subscribe to our podcast and
look at our website.
okay, so we're talking about something
performance baddish.
That is not bullying.
You were allowed to manage youremployees like you're required
to do that, um, unless, ofcourse, it's a targeted,
targeted approach, but, um,that's not bullying.
Holding people accountable isnot bullying.
Bullying is when you aregossiping, when you are yelling
(00:21):
at someone, you're underminingthem.
Uh, fear-based type.
It's abuse, it's abusivebehavior, and there's a big
distinction there.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome to the 4 Bars podcast.
I'm Ken Leith.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
And I'm Patti Leith.
We're your hosts for somecompelling dialogue, encouraging
our listeners to strengthentheir connections.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
And build strong communities, lifting each other
up and connecting in ways thatmatter.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
We named the podcast 4 Bars as a reference to how
hard we work to find a Four Barsconnection on our devices.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
And we wondered what could happen with relationships
if we worked as hard atconnecting.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Let's find out.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Welcome back to Four Bars.
I'm your co-host, Ken Lee.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
And I'm Patti Lee.
We'd like to welcome Dr JasonWalker.
He is the Director of Healthand Wellness Psychology and
Industrial OrganizationalPsychology graduate programs at
Adler University and an adjunctclinical professor at City
University of Seattle.
A thought leader andtrauma-informed leadership, he
holds dual doctorates in generaland clinical psychology and is
(01:21):
internationally recognized forhis work on workplace violence,
bullying and harassment.
His research reframes workplaceviolence as a public health and
safety crisis, shapingorganizational policy and
leadership practices.
Dr Walker's insights have beenfeatured in Forbes, newsweek,
(01:42):
msn, yahoo and the Globe andMail.
He has authored over 50academic publications and was
appointed a serving member ofthe Order of St John by Her
Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, oneof several national honors
awarded for his leadership andservice.
We are so excited to have himhere with us.
We're interested in justlearning a little bit about you
(02:04):
and your story and what bringsyou to this career that you've
built around this so importanttopic.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Thank you, and I appreciate that.
I grew up in actually a smallcommunity in Canada the Pacific
Northwest, canada, the PacificNorthwest and my family on my
mom's side of the family farmersIn fact, family members we
(02:32):
still have some farms On mydad's side, construction.
For the most part, my parentsworked in government and they
really pushed the importance ofeducation.
So when I left high school, Iwas able to secure a scholarship
to McMaster University where Iwas really interested in
psychology and neuroscience andone of the first people in my
(02:53):
family to go to school certainlymy immediate family and while I
was at Mac McMaster, they had acampus emergency response team,
medical response team, and so Itrained and I became a member
of that team and I really got tounderstand human behavior
differently.
So you would see people whocall 911 for help in a crisis
(03:17):
and I was really fascinated interms of how to bring some
calmness to that piece andinevitably you help people.
I enjoyed my time at Mac andthen I was at the end of my
degree.
I'm like, oh my goodness, whatam I going to do?
And so I didn't get into theprogram that I applied for and
(03:38):
one of my friends said you knowyou should apply to the
University of Toronto.
I'm like sure that's a greatidea.
In the Faculty of Social Work,I'm like I don't even know what
that means, but awesome Like itsounds, clinical like this will
be great.
And so I somehow got into theUniversity of Toronto and in the
social work program and I veryquickly, very quickly, learned
(04:03):
about the intensity and theimportance in terms of clinical
abilities to help other people.
And we had differentresidencies and when you applied
to a residency, they would rankyou, you would rank them, and
there's a certain number ofpeople that didn't get their
placement, and I happened to beone of the chosen few there.
(04:25):
And so we had to line upoutside an advisor's office and
I remember it quite distinctlyshe invited us in, or she's
invited me in.
She said what do you want to dowith your career?
I'm like, well, I would like togo to the Toronto General
Hospital and I would love towork in psychiatry and learn all
the things.
And she said, said, that isfascinating, that's amazing goal
(04:48):
.
Um, you're going to the childabuse team at the children's
hospital, like the what, the wholike, thank you very much, I
look forward to the opportunity.
And so uh went there and uh, uhreally struggled at an early
age, sounds like, was like 20 orsomething like that, dealing
with really hard stuff.
And at one point a supervisortook me aside and was like you
(05:09):
know, you're not very good atthis.
I'm like, well, thank you, likeI'm aware that I'm struggling.
But they said, you know you'reanimated with children, which
was interesting because I treatand still do I treat children to
a degree like a cat, like yougive it, attention, runs away,
you ignore it comes to you.
But she decided to teach me howto do forensic interviews with
(05:30):
children and I got pretty goodat that.
I did end up at Toronto Generalat one point and then worked for
a child protection agency andduring my time in child
protection I was injured on thejob.
I was hurt in an incident andthen encountered another really
critical incident with the child, and in those days we didn't
(05:54):
talk about PTSD, we just didn'tLike it was the year 2002.
And your job was to deal withsomething and then go back to
work.
And your job was to deal withsomething and then go back to
work.
My family and friends after thefact were like we didn't know
who you were anymore.
I would wake up in the middleof the night thinking about my
caseload and you're safe, and itwas very unhealthy.
(06:15):
However, at one point I'm like,okay, I'm done now.
Goodbye Toronto.
And I went to do a PhD in socialwork, university of Calgary.
And so I got there, knew nobody.
My supervisor was end of career.
My closest friend was likedecades older than me and I had
(06:37):
a severe mental health crisis interms of anxiety, depression,
ptsd, and I actually dropped outof my PhD.
And because I, in my mind, Ireally tied my self-worth to
that, to education, I couldn'teven tell my family.
I failed and really went andstruggled in terms of finding
(06:59):
who I was again.
And inevitably, when you'reliving with PTSD and life gets
really hard, you hit a wall.
I hit that wall, I hit thatwall hard and it took a long
time to recover.
But it was actually my dadwho's like hey, look at what
point are you going to get backup?
It doesn't matter how hard youfall.
So I was like, ok, fine.
(07:20):
So I went back to school and Igot a PhD in general psychology
and I studied workplace violence.
I was interested in how commonis it for first responders
police, fire, ambulance to bebullied at work.
And then what are theimplications of that?
And what I found was, generallyspeaking, the population of all
industries 30% of people havebeen bullied in the last six
(07:43):
months at work to some degree.
Now, think about that, themillions of people who work in
the United States.
So it's like, okay, we're abouthigh.
When you look at firstresponders, when you look at
people in academia, hierarchicalstructures, 60% identify as
being bullied in the last sixmonths.
I'm like, oh, that's a lot.
And actually 75% of people intheir career have been bullied.
(08:07):
So I'm like, okay, well, that'sinteresting and I wanted to
explore that more.
And then I thought, you know, Iprobably need more school.
So I was really interested inthe clinical side.
So I went back and I did a PsyDin clinical psych and really
got better at understandinghuman behavior through a
clinical lens, through a lens ofpathology actually.
(08:28):
And then since that time I'vededicated my career to
understanding this phenomenon.
So workplace bullying,workplace harassment, workplace
sexual abuse it's violence andit impacts almost everybody.
So I would like to not onlyidentify what it is, but I think
(08:50):
we need to change our languageand we need to reconceptualize
how we see violence in theworkplace.
It is preventable, right.
It is more than just badbehavior.
People get hurt and it's reallya public health matter because
it impacts so many people in ourcommunities.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
So that has been the emphasis and the interest, the
sheer numbers that you sharedwith us and the impact on the
human element of their lives.
The impact on a business whenit exists in a workplace is a
lot to digest.
If you could and kind of helpto ground our viewers and
(09:33):
listeners on the topic, howwould you define workplace
bullying?
What might it actually looklike?
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Thank you, Great question.
So workplace bullying,workplace harassment?
It's intentional, unwantedconduct and behavior that harms
other people and the test,however, is not whether the
person was thinking intent interms of that harm, intent in
(10:07):
terms of that harm.
But it goes back to does any?
Would a reasonable personconsider the behavior of that
bully unreasonable and unwanted?
So, whether that's someonegossiping about you in the
workplace or withholding ofinformation right so you can't
do your job, it can be.
Not everyone yells right Like.
There's different ways to go toperpetrate that behavior.
It can be smiling to your facein a meeting and cutting you at
(10:31):
the knees after.
It can be anything from beingyelled at to being physically
assaulted.
It can be unwanted sexualcomments.
It can be sexualized touching.
So there's a range of behavior,but it's a pattern.
It's not a one-off, it's apattern of sustainability and
(10:54):
the applications for that arevery severe.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Yeah, that pattern and the litmus test are
important to keep in mind if anindividual is having any tension
in the workplace, to reallyunderstand what is just normal
stress and tension and what issomething to be very concerned
about.
And that's where I think peoplewho can't draw that line
(11:19):
sometimes take it for too long.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Absolutely, and you know it's funny.
You said like draw that line,sometimes take it for too long,
absolutely, um, and you knowit's funny.
You said like draw that line,um, and that's important, uh,
that we actually we think aboutthat, we think about our
language in terms of you shouldbe able to go to work and be
safe, right, like the sundayscaries.
That's not normal.
It's just not normal behavior,like if you're afraid to go to
work on monday, there'ssomething terribly wrong, and
(11:48):
that speaks to psychologicalsafety and that speaks to
engagement and leadership.
And then what we do is we turnto hr to solve the problem right
, and it's like doesn't?
The problem is not solved byrepair, does not start with
human resources, repair startswith leadership.
And if leaders are endorsingthe behavior and if leaders are
(12:14):
promoting that high performerwho is horrible to other people,
it sends the message that thisbehavior is okay and then other
people will do it becausethey're human.
Years ago at a, conference.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
I heard a speaker talk about culture and we were
in Florida and it was abeautiful day and he said hey,
it's a beautiful day.
I'm going to lead with the onesentence you need to remember
about culture and then you cango to the beach if you want to.
But that one sentence isculture is what's rewarded
around here.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Absolutely, and culture eats strategy for life.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
So it works when you have someone that is willing to
step up in terms of addressingthe behavior, stopping a meeting
to say, you know I think I'dreally like to take a moment
here to speak to what you know,whoever just said, or if you're
talking over someone or ifyou're, it's like stopping and
addressing the behavior in realtime, right, and then modeling
(13:17):
actual behavior, actuallypositive behavior.
So what we see to a lot of mostevery organization and this is
my favorite they have a policyon bullying, right, and we have
a zero tolerance policy onbullying and for the most part,
those policies are not worth thepaper that they're written on
Because it's not enforced,especially if it's a high
(13:40):
performer or someone inleadership.
Not enforced, especially ifit's a high performer or someone
in leadership.
And then what employees learnis that not only is it not safe
to go to HR, right, with thatcomplaint, nothing's going to
happen.
Or that person, the perpetrator, guaranteed keep the job,
they'll keep their job.
Number two, you will become abigger target, you might be
(14:01):
moved to a different group, theymight even try and pay you to
go away.
And we observed that in terms ofhey, the colleague down the
hall did a complaint and Inoticed that they don't work
here anymore.
And that's the learning.
It's just wrong Like this,isn't right and it's quite mind
(14:24):
blowing.
So, and especially withorganizations like you know, we
value our people.
Okay, show me, show me that.
Because that toxic individual,that bully, that perpetrator,
damages your culture so severely, productivity goes down, some
of them being bullied.
50% of their time is lostproductivity because they're
worried about where the next,the next dig's coming from,
(14:48):
right like the next.
So some research shows it costsour economy close to a billion
dollars a year.
When you rack up loss ofproductivity, use of aap, people
going on, legal costs, all thatsort of stuff based on people
going to work and harming otherpeople, it really doesn't make
sense to me.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
If nothing else and this will come off a little bit,
maybe cynical but if nothingelse, often businesses pay
attention when they see theirbottom line as being negatively
impacted.
Pay attention when they seetheir bottom line as being
negatively impacted, but in thisscenario it doesn't sound like
that same focus is applied inthe same way Is that accurate.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
So I think that's a really great, great question,
because I think two things arehappening.
We as humans are very good atidentifying tangible things.
So if that high performer whohappens to be a bully and toxic
and all those is performingright and revenue's coming in,
we're not thinking about gee, Iwonder if that person wasn't
(15:52):
here, would others thrive andwould we actually bring in more
money?
So we're very good inorganizations about counting
cents, not dollars, and I thinkthat's part of the problem,
right, like we're very good atyou know, understanding.
Well, you know this person'sperforming at this level and
(16:14):
that's how much money we'vebrought in.
But we're looking at thissuperficial level of success
versus what would it look likeif we had a healthy, safe
culture, because I bet otherpeople would be stepping up.
In fact, data shows that whenyou deal with these problems,
productivity and revenue can goup 30%.
We're not data-driven.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
And many organizations will do a lot to
get a 30% bump.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Absolutely, I would 100%.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
We're the same, we're with you on that one for sure.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
What are some of the common traits that a workplace
bully demonstrates?
What are some of the thingsthat really are going on with
that person's behavior ormindset?
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Of course it depends, however.
Number one it's not gendered.
So men, women, there's nogender differential.
Even when it comes to all thosesexualized type of abuse in the
workplace, higher percentage ofmen are perpetrators.
It happens across gender.
So we can't really look at that.
(17:21):
There's a concept called thedark triad, and so the dark
triad is when narcissism, whichis, it is all about me, right?
The world revolves around me, Iam the reason we are so
successful and the sun rises andsets for me every day.
Okay.
Then we have Machiavellianism,and that's.
I will smile and say hello toyou while I'm stepping on your
(17:43):
neck to get ahead of you, I willdo anything to get what I want.
And then we have psychopathy,where there's some mental health
or personality issues, disorder, issues related to behavior,
when those three things cometogether and there's this lack
of empathy not's not completelydevoid, but lack of empathy.
That's typically where we seethe bullying behavior Like.
(18:06):
Those types of people areincredibly attracted to jobs
where they have a high degree ofautonomy, often in hierarchical
organizations, right, wherethere's rank or, you know let me
start that one again, I'm sorry.
So, hierarchical organizationswhere there's rank.
(18:29):
Whether it's, you know, you'rethe manager, director, vice
president, doesn't matter, right, there's that ladder to climb
where we see that a lot, andit's just prevalent everywhere.
And that's the scary part,right, it's right, it is just so
common in our workplaces.
I mean, incivility in theworkplace is people are rude.
(18:52):
Now, right, I actually don'tremember it ever being this bad
before, though, like being rudeto someone.
That's not bullying.
Bullying is these acts that areactually harming, designed to
harm, right, uh and uh.
We need to be aware of that.
The second piece and here's aquestion that I always get is uh
(19:13):
, well, what happens?
Or someone's being performancemanaged?
Okay, so we're talking aboutsomebody being performance
baddish.
That is not bullying.
You were allowed to manage youremployees like you're required
to do that, um, unless, ofcourse, it's a targeted,
targeted approach, but, um,that's not bullying.
Holding people accountable isnot bullying.
(19:35):
Bullying is when you weregossiping, when you were yelling
at someone, when you'reundermining them, fear-based
type.
It's abuse, it's abusivebehavior, and there's a big
distinction there that thatquestion comes up a lot.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Can you share an example or a story that would
illustrate what some of thelong-term psychological or
emotional impacts are on peoplewho experience this?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, thank you.
So in terms of I'm going tospeak to physical health and
mental health.
So, physical health, what isdocumented in the literature
cardiovascular disease, sleepdisturbances, high blood
pressure, headaches, theinability to concentrate they
(20:23):
have those, those, those thingswhere your nervous system is
highly engaged.
Uh, the mental health gutissues, right, gi issues, all
those things.
The sunday scary things, right.
The mental health piece of thatanxiety, depression at times,
post-traumatic stress disorder,significant sleep and eating
disturbances and, in severecases, suicide.
(20:47):
So people are killingthemselves because of the way
they're being treated at workand that's really powerful and
that that should really worrypeople.
And it's not uncommon where Ialso hear, uh, when I, when I
consult and when I'm working insome organizations, it's like
well, you know, bully, it's kindof like schoolyard bullying.
(21:09):
First of all, it's like right,and who enjoyed that?
First of all.
But there's even worse becauseit's designed to harm and abuse
other people in a place whereyou actually have the right to
go to work and be safe.
So I think, when you considerespecially the psychological
(21:33):
impact, it can last five to 10years after that bullying
incident or after you leave anorganization, and I mean those
are significant long-termeffects.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
And people need assistance to work through them,
the adhaktivats.
They need mental healthassistance generally to work
through the impact.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
And along those lines of needing some help.
When someone goes through thisand let's say then they reach
out for help and maybe theyreach out to you how long is a
recovery?
I know not one size fits all,but what's recovery like?
How long could it take forsomeone to kind of try to get
themselves back to what I wouldcall a normal life?
Speaker 1 (22:26):
um, so, and to get to that, back to that typical
trajectory right in terms ofconfidence and and identity, and
being able to manage anxiety ordepression whenever, that is
the answer, and I really I'msorry because I'm gonna say
something I tell my studentsnever to say.
It depends, right, like itreally depends, yes, uh, and it
depends on the individualthemselves.
It depends on the intensity andduration of what's happened to
them and all these other factorshappening in their lives, but
(22:50):
you're looking at long-termrecovery.
Some people are incrediblyresilient and they're able to,
like, flip a switch and okay,that's over now, and I've
compartmentalized it and I'mmoving on.
The majority of people can't,though, and I think one of the
reasons that they can't is wehave psychological contracts
with our employer, but youexpect to get paid, yeah, you
(23:13):
expect to.
You know you're going to getback, um, like all these things
that we expect from the employer.
You expect to go to work and besafe and be treated well, and
all these sorts of things.
When you're not, and thatcontract is broken and the
psychological safety is very low, almost impossible to get it
back, right, so what happens tothe next employer?
(23:35):
It's like you know, a lot of myfriends are on the dating apps
and they go on all these datesand I love hearing these stories
and I should really charge themmoney for the support that I
provide them, uh, after thesedates.
But, um, it's like, well, howabout the next one?
Because that was a disaster,right, and they're experiencing
(23:57):
that anxiety and for the nextopportunity, similar you know,
not to make light of it, butsimilar in terms of, well, can I
trust the next employer?
Right, and also, where it's youknow where I have concern.
I hear this from people it'snot as bad as the last place.
It's like that is equallytroubling, right, where it's not
(24:19):
, it's not quite as bad, it'slike, okay, so these prevalent
issues, people are likely goingto experience it again and
that's why it's such a big issue, uh, in our society yeah, so
you, you, even when you return,if you make a good recovery,
there's still the strongpossibility that I'm going to
wait for the next shoe to falland I'm going to go with
(24:41):
expectations of it will reoccur.
Yeah, yeah, and that's typicalhuman behavior, but sadly
they're probably right.
However, hopefully by that timethey'll have the tools and
awareness to know what'shappening, if it's going to
happen right, or when bullyingstarts to happen to's happening.
(25:02):
If it's going to happen right,or when bullying starts to
happen to them, if it does, howto identify it and the different
steps they can take to protectthemselves right and the
boundaries that hopefullythey've developed from from that
last experience, so moreresilient for the next
opportunity.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Generally speaking, is there a?
Is there a particular storythat you can share that really
gets into the understanding thatit's happening, dealing with it
and then recovering from it?
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Sure, so I'll use a personal example.
Okay, and you know, keep inmind, this story is not that
long ago and it did a differentjob a few years ago and I was in
a meeting and the boss wasthere and a lot of my colleagues
were in the room as well, and Ihad asked a question that I
(25:55):
felt to be reasonable, it wasrespectful.
I needed clarity on somethingactually quite important and
there was a disconnect betweenwhat was being said by the boss
and what we'd heard from anotherdepartment.
I just need to understand whichwas the true information.
And so I asked the question andthat individual then, for the
(26:18):
next five to seven minutes, whowas known to have a temper,
raised their voice, belittled mein front of my colleagues.
I felt I felt shamed, I feltembarrassed and I felt
disrespected to the point where,when that individual was done I
(26:39):
gave it a few minutes, actuallygot up and I and after I
received a text message fromthem further berating me for
undermining their authority anda few other things.
That was actually recorded andmy colleagues raised concerns
about the behavior.
(26:59):
The information went to humanresources and senior level
people and I remember sittingwith human resources and being
told well, it wasn't that badreally, was it?
I thought, ok, well, this isinteresting.
And I wasn't surprised becausethat was what I experienced in
(27:20):
that organization.
I'd watch it happen to otherpeople, and certainly not the
first person to make a complaint.
Colleagues made complaints, waspromised some sort of review.
Things stopped talking to mefor 10 months and I wasn't
(27:44):
invited to certain meetings andI was not appointed to certain
committees.
And I thought to myself youknow, it was keeping me up at
night.
I was anxious to go into work.
I would avoid when I see thatperson and again, expert in this
, an expert.
(28:05):
But when you're deep insomething, it's like I think I
know what's happening, like it'sclearly bullying, but I don't
know what to do and you can'talways jump out.
I looked for a new job and Iwas lucky and I got one.
Um, but that's when good peopleleave the organization, right.
So there there was that overtact of public humiliation.
(28:26):
And then the covert well, we'renot going to invite them to
this meeting or this receptionor this event or this committee
or whatever.
That is right.
And then the rumors and thegossip around.
We don't really want thatperson right.
And it's like for asking aquestion, because that
individual uh is a bully.
(28:48):
But what was very curious to mewas, uh, the fact, the
organization, they weren't opento addressing it, and so then
it's like, well, if I can'tchange them, I better change me,
uh, and for me it was.
Other opportunity came up, likenice, nice to know you, uh, but
it took me a couple years toactually get over that.
(29:12):
Like I was gun shy about stuff,right, so I still think about
it on occasion.
So I think that impact uh issignificant in terms of the cost
to your psychological, physicalhealth, your self-esteem, all
those things and your identity.
So, um, like those are some ofthe things that you see uh and
(29:34):
experience.
And then your colleagues, likesome are amazing, right, and
they're allies and they'resupportive.
Others are like I am going todistance myself from you because
I do not want to be associatedand become a target as well, and
then that social isolationpiece can be incredibly harming,
and that's often what we see.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
What were some of the ways that you put it in your
past, in your rear view?
What were some?
Speaker 1 (30:00):
of the ways that you put it in your past, in your
rear view.
How did I put it in the rearview?
Well, you know, I talked to mytherapist and, yes, I think
everyone should have a therapist.
They should report it.
Right, that helped.
And I also, you know, sometimesyou have to have a talk with
(30:21):
yourself in terms ofunderstanding who am I, where do
I come from, what's importantto me, what are my values.
And then I remember the momentwhere I was like would I go to
that, that person for advice?
Absolutely not.
And so how much free rent am Igoing to give this right?
Like, how much free rent?
How how long am I going to talkabout this?
Uh and and that was my, myself-talk around I, you know,
(30:44):
like fairly capable person, uhand uh, I can move on and past
that and I will never treatanybody like that right ever
right, um, and I think that wasyou know a good way to, to, to
wrap that up and put it behindme.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Yeah, that's good.
Thank you for sharing that.
It's incredibly vulnerable andtransparent of you to share that
personal story, but I think thepoint that you make with that
is it really can happen toanyone, and even though you know
what you should be doing in themoment.
It's hard to do it right,absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
And we share a lot with leaders of all levels, from
first-time leaders up toC-suite, and one of the things
that's very clear, the way asleadership really should be
structured, as we share withpeople, is every promotion I get
, every opportunity I get to goto a higher level.
(31:40):
I have more responsibility.
But that real responsibility wetalked to first is ensuring the
success of those who really areunder our care, so to speak,
and our watch to help buildtheir success.
And here we're looking at thetotal converse of that and the
fact that people are not onlynot trying to ensure their
(32:02):
success, they're in some waystearing that down, the
opportunities for that.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Absolutely Trying to destroy them, right?
They try to destroy careers,which is also abuse, right?
Because you don't like somebody, yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Yeah, and it's a power struggle.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
It is all it always comes down.
Thank you for saying that itcomes down to power.
Uh, and you know, some peopletalk about, well, that that
person must have low self-esteem.
Sure, absolutely, and they'reprobably narcissistic with
macabre lean tendencies, um, butyou know, really, uh, I think
it's, it's about power.
(32:39):
Yes, right, who does I powerover and how can I retain it?
And I can do that by beingabusive, because fear-based
leadership, right, you'll neverhave the loyalty of the people
around you.
It works, though?
It'll work, but I can tell yourespect-based leadership,
(33:00):
servant-based leadership,transformational leadership.
Those people respect you,follow you and be loyal to you
in a much different way.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
You're absolutely right.
We had the opportunity recentlyin a podcast to have on a
leader from an organization andwe've known him for quite a
while.
But he is known in theworkplace for being a open door
leader and it doesn't matterwhat area of the company,
whether you're on directly underhis responsibility or someone
(33:29):
else's, he always has an opendoor and he is a connector and a
builder.
So when I say builder, he wantspeople to succeed and he shared
with us some of his things.
First is, first and foremost,is to be a good listener, and to
listen first, then ask goodquestions in order to help
provide the best input.
(33:49):
He describes himself as someonewho will communicate directly,
but he does it with goodintentions and a heart for
wanting to ensure that success.
So it's the exact opposite ofwhat we're talking about today's
topic, and it's good to knowthey're out there.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
You know being able to listen, to understand versus
listening to respond issomething that takes people a
long time to do and once you getthere you know inevitably
people want to feel heard andthey want to feel respected.
You can disagree, but it's howyou communicate that and if you
do it with compassion andunderstanding and you're curious
(34:27):
, it's a lot different thanattacking sharp on occasion.
It's also okay to apologize forthat right.
So people know that's not whoyou are and if you make a
(34:54):
mistake, own it, fix it.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
People respect that right.
So, yeah, no, I appreciate thatstory.
Thank you.
Well, as we wrap up this firstpart and Dr Walker will be back
for a part two on this, where weget deeper into the systemic
challenges that an organizationfaces, what advice can you give
to our listeners and viewers whothink they may be witnessing or
(35:15):
being targeted by workplacebullying?
What are some of the thingsthat they can do?
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Sure, thank you.
Targeted by workplace bullying.
What are some of the thingsthat they can do?
Sure, thank you, and I say thisto the people who are targeted
and to witnesses of it like,believe it, it likely is
happening.
Yes, and you know, it's not you, it's them.
First of all, and you know someof things that we, you really
(35:45):
need to start doing isdocumenting in terms of time,
place, event, who was there,what was said, how did it make
you feel?
And when you document it, thenyou start to see the pattern
emerge.
Right, and when that patternemerges because bullies are
really good at trying to augmentreality, like gaslighters,
where you're like, oh, baby, itis me, like maybe it's not
(36:07):
happening, you will see it,you'll see that pattern.
Number two uh, if you're havingsome emotional uh reaction to
what's going on for you, talk toyour health care provider or
speak to someone in mentalhealth, because that will build
your resilience.
Number three find allies.
Find allies in the workplaceand they're out there, and they
(36:28):
will be there to tell you.
It is not you, it's them, I seeit too.
And you can have strategieswith that person, even in terms
of you know, well, if you knowthe boss comes and pulls me
aside in the hallway, do youmind like walking by or just
coming and standing by me, justto kind of shift that dynamic.
But there's a lot of ways wecan help each other in the
(36:49):
workplace as well.
But those are really the topthree things, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for sharing this withus.
We are so excited in the nextepisode, to go deeper into this
systemically and really look athow this is impacting
organizations, whatorganizations can do to change
their culture.
So thank you so much.
This is a tough topic to speakabout and the first time that we
met you, your passion for itand your belief in what this
(37:20):
work can do to build bettersafety in the workplace is so
compelling.
So thank you for being here andsharing them.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
And thank you for our listeners and viewers this
episode and we hope that youjoin us in part two.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Take care.
This podcast has been broughtto you by Edges Inc.
A growth advisory firm based inBentonville, arkansas.
I founded the company in 2001.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Edges promotes growth , people, companies and ideas.
Our team collaboration tool,called Interface Methods, is a
basis for teams to work togethermore collaboratively,
understand each other and acceptdifferences and address
challenges together.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
We also started a nonprofit called Unform your
Bias.
We teach kids and their adultinfluencers how to utilize
storytelling as a means toreduce bias in the world.
We hope you'll check us out,subscribe to our podcast and
look at our website.
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