July 24, 2025 • 31 mins
What happens when the same behaviors that would prompt immediate police intervention on the street are normalized behind office doors? Dr. Jason Walker, a dual-doctorate psychologist and internationally recognized expert on workplace violence, bullying, and harassment, takes us on a compelling journey exploring this dangerous double standard.
"Why is it if you are touched sexually in an unwanted way, if you were on the street, the cops would show up? But you're at work and you're like, well, you know, talk to your manager...we'll go to HR...we're going to have to document. Who are we protecting here?" This provocative question frames our deep dive into how workplace bullying, harassment, and sexual abuse continue to thrive in professional environments.
Dr. Walker reveals how organizational blind spots and misplaced priorities create systems that protect perpetrators rather than victims. He explains why approximately 30% of American workers, a staggering 48.3 million people, experience workplace bullying within any six-month period, and why traditional responses fall devastatingly short. From the limitations of HR investigations to the dangerous practice of protecting high-performing "rainmakers" who bully, we explore the systemic failures that normalize workplace violence.
Beyond identifying problems, Dr. Walker provides transformative solutions for creating psychologically safe workplaces. He outlines practical steps organizations can take: explicitly including psychological safety in mission statements, training leaders to intervene when witnessing harmful behaviors, revamping benefit structures to properly support employees, and implementing truly effective reporting systems. For individuals experiencing workplace bullying, he offers thoughtful guidance on documentation, self-protection, and knowing when to seek a healthier work environment.
Join us for this essential conversation about workplace dignity and safety. Whether you're an organizational leader wanting to create a healthier culture or someone navigating a toxic work environment, this episode provides the clarity and tools needed to recognize, address, and prevent workplace bullying. Because as Dr. Walker emphasizes: "You have the right to go to work and be safe, and part of that is your psychological safety."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Why is it?
Speaker 1 (00:01):
if you are touched sexually in an unwanted way.
If you were on the street, thecops would show up right.
But you're at work and you'relike, well, you know, you talk
to your manager and then I want,you know, we'll go to HR, we're
going to have a conversation,we're going to have to document,
right, and what is that about?
Like, who are we protectinghere?
(00:22):
Because it really looks like weprotect the perpetrator.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Welcome to the 4 Bars podcast.
I'm Ken.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Leith, and I'm Patti Leith.
We're your hosts for somecompelling dialogue, encouraging
our listeners to strengthentheir connections and build
strong communities, lifting eachother up and connecting in ways
that matter.
We named the podcast 4 Bars asa reference to how hard we work
to find a Four Bars connectionon our devices.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
And we wondered what could happen with relationships
if we worked as hard atconnecting.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Let's find out.
Welcome back to Four BarsPodcast.
I'm Patti Leith, your co-host.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
And I'm Dan Leith.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
We'd like to welcome.
Dr Jason Walker is the Directorof Health and Wellness
Psychology and IndustrialOrganizational Psychology
graduate programs at AdlerUniversity and an adjunct
clinical professor at CityUniversity of Seattle.
A thought leader intrauma-informed leadership, he
holds dual doctorates in generaland clinical psychology and is
(01:19):
internationally recognized forhis work on workplace violence,
bullying and harassment.
His research reframes workplaceviolence as a public health and
safety crisis, shapingorganizational policy and
leadership practices.
Dr Walker's insights have beenfeatured in Forbes, newsweek,
msn, yahoo and the Globe andMail.
(01:42):
He has authored over 50academic publications and was
appointed a serving member ofthe Order of St John by Her
Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, oneof several national honors
awarded for his leadership andservice.
We are so excited to have himhere with us.
If you didn't get the firstpart of this, you have to watch
it.
It's amazingly compelling andwe are so excited to have you
(02:05):
back, dr Walker.
Thank you for being here.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Yes, thank you.
Welcome back.
In the first episode if youweren't able to join us.
Dr Walker walked us throughreally what workplace bullying
can look like, how it can impactpeople, through what could be
some of the strategies foridentifying it, seeking
(02:31):
assistance with that and evenrecovery of that.
So through this episode we'regoing to go a bit deeper in some
additional topics there andjust provide some more
information for those of you whomaybe are seeing this occur,
maybe have experienced yourself,and these hopefully will have
you walking away with some toolsthat will help better equip you
(02:52):
if you find yourself in thatunfortunate situation.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Yeah, I think the last episode got deeper into
what is it, how do I know ifit's happening to me and what do
I do about it.
We talked a bit about theimpact on corporations, the cost
and the impact on culture, butwe want to get more systemic in
this episode.
Why do you think companiessometimes allow the bullying
(03:15):
behavior to continue to go on,and what blind spots enable it?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Great question, and I think it's one of those things
where it's, in that, too hard totouch pile.
Bullying, harassment, sexualabuse is, in this, too hard to
touch pile, and we don't reallytrain people how to touch the
hard stuff, so quite often, itis better, in the minds of some
people, to ignore, to avoid, uh,and to hope that something will
(03:43):
go away.
The problem being, though, hopeis not a strategy, and while
you're waiting right for this tomagically disappear and you
have a legal obligation toprotect your employees and keep
them safe, they're gettingharmed, so I think that's the
first thing we need to thinkabout.
(04:03):
Why do organizations not dealwith it as well?
Because it's often the highperformer and it's often the
leader and human resourcedepartments, and there are great
HR people, there's great HRdepartments out there.
Inevitably, though, hr is thereto protect the organization, not
(04:23):
there to protect you as theworker, and if a complaint is
filed and you have a policy thatoften, like I said before,
isn't necessarily worth thepaper it's written on, when
there's an investigation, we'reasking people with no
investigative experience and Iknow that because I teach HR and
we don't't teach them this togo and investigate something
(04:45):
serious, and it doesn't reallymake sense.
So how that lens is looked atis was the policy followed, was
there a policy breach?
And what we really need to belooking at is was the behavior
unwanted and harmful and isthere a pattern of it?
So I think those are some ofthe key reasons, but especially
(05:10):
when it's your rainmaker, whenyour rainmaker is acting in a
toxic, unsafe way bullying,harassment, sexual abuse,
whatever that is we tend to turna blind eye and it's completely
unacceptable.
Yeah, we tend to turn a blindeye, and it's completely
unacceptable.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Yeah, I remember having a conversation many years
ago with the CEO who wassharing some, some behavior that
any high level leader had inthe organization and and ended
with it's not acceptable.
And I said, well, how long hasit been going on?
And the response was five years.
And I said, well, then,probably in larger companies.
(05:48):
I see it more often, but therethere is a a balance between the
(06:13):
advocacy for the individual andthe organization.
But but investigations areoften, to your point, done
they're done by the HRdepartment and they are not
equipped with all the skills toreally figure out what's going
on.
Yeah, as you think about whatan organization can do
(06:38):
culturally to set the stage forthis not to be allowed, what are
some of those things?
Speaker 1 (06:44):
You know, I think that starts with a deep dive.
A deep dive into who are we andwhat do we believe in.
And uh believe I have workedover the last I don't even want
to say how long I've beenworking for now, uh but pretty
much everyone, or everyorganization, says how much they
value their people and it'slike those are nice words, but
we need to see it in action.
Employees need to see it inaction, employees need to see
(07:06):
that in action.
So if you are an organizationthat values people, put people
over process, it's not reallythat hard.
Look at the policies that youhave in the organization and are
they driven and created in sucha way where they're trauma,
informed, to help people, or arethey a tool, a tool of
(07:27):
discipline, right, or a tool ofpunishment?
And that's actually, you know,just going a little adjacent to
that.
Different types of.
There's different types ofbullies out there.
There's gaslighting bullies,the administrative narcissists,
all these.
One type of bully uses policyas a weapon.
So they know the system reallyreally well and put barriers in
(07:48):
place for you, right, and hidebehind policy or procedure
protocol to suggest that theirbehavior is OK, right.
So think about, like what, whatpolicies you have.
Secondly, certainly up here inCanada the requirement is like
once a year there's a workplacebullying training and here's the
(08:10):
thing there's no standard as towhat that looks like.
I've been in organizationswhere it's like a two three hour
, two, three hour seminar or anonline guided learning that
takes like a day.
I was in one organization it itwas 10 minutes 10 minutes.
They spoke to it and someonewho has no experience in
(08:32):
bullying and harassment andbasically pointed us to the
policy.
So if you are embracing a workculture where you believe in
psychological safety, where youwant employees to feel heard and
you want them to feel respectedand trusted, then invest in
that piece and you want them tofeel respected and trusted, then
invest in that piece.
And maybe it shouldn't be oncea year, right, it's almost as
(08:53):
interesting as a performancereview, right, that we do once a
year and what we should reallybe doing all the time.
But you know, add psychologicalsafety and discussions about
bullying.
Add it to your team meetings.
Like how many?
I was speaking at a conferencethe other day and I said show of
hands, how many people speak tobullying, harassment and sexual
(09:14):
abuse in the leadership meeting?
Nobody.
How about a team meeting,nobody.
How about, you know, like theweekly team briefings, and a few
people put their hands up.
It's like, right, we don't eventalk about it, we don't even
talk about it.
We don't even talk about itbecause we've normalized the
(09:34):
behavior and then we forget.
It's not acceptable.
So I think those are somethings organizations can do.
And then, when someone isharming someone else, deal with
it, but give that person anopportunity and a performance
improvement plan.
Like unless they're really, youknow, causing a high safety
risk, we have to act immediately.
Like try and support thatperson.
Do not promote that person, donot move the complainant to a
(09:58):
different department.
Like deal with the issue andthen show other employees.
This is not acceptable.
If you're in a meeting andsomeone says something sexist or
gendered or harmful, or theytalk over someone else, stop the
meeting, take a step back.
You know, I'd like to revisitwhat was just said here, because
it's not okay.
Right, like be that leader inthe organization.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Those are things that make a difference.
Dan, if someone in anenvironment is unsure, they feel
I think we talked about in thefirst session that they can
maybe feel that there's somebullying going on.
At what point in time does thatbullying turn into a criminal
(10:41):
offense?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Oh, that's interesting and thank you for
bringing that up, and so can I.
I'd like to use a story, andI'd like you to picture for a
moment.
You're at the grocery store,okay, and you got your groceries
.
You're standing in line.
You're wondering why it's goingto cost you so much money to
have two bags of groceries where, before you know, you'd have
four.
You're going through that inyour head and then someone else
(11:04):
someone walks up to you and theystart threatening you.
Going through that in your head, and then someone else, someone
walks up to you and they startthreatening you, right, and they
get in your.
They get in your space andmaybe they do assault you.
Maybe they brush up against you, maybe they push you or they
shove you, Maybe they're yellingat you, maybe they're trying to
touch you in a sexual wayGuaranteed, although someone
might not immediately step in,guaranteed.
(11:25):
Someone is calling the police,right, and so then the police
show up and they have videoevidence, right, and they have
witness statements and thatindividual is likely going to be
arrested and charged.
Right.
Then they go through the courtsystem.
And why is it that when we go towork, there's a different set
(11:45):
of rules, and when you're inthat grocery store, you're not
going to be asked to, you know,I just need you to step back and
document.
And, by the way, I need you tobe professional and calm, right,
because in society we know thatviolence is violence and we
know that violent acts are notacceptable.
But then you go to work andit's like, well, you know, jason
(12:09):
, it's not really that bad right, and you know document.
But I need you to stayprofessional, maybe, you know,
just try and avoid them, right?
And, by the way, can you sit inthat meeting with them?
Because you wouldn't go back tothe grocery store with that
person the next day, right backto the grocery store with that
(12:29):
person the next day, right?
So it's a different set ofbizarre rules and that criminal
piece and non-lawyer, everystate is different, every
province is different.
But why is it if you are touchedsexually in an unwanted way?
If you were on the street, thecops would show up, right.
But you're at work and you'relike well, you know, you talk to
your manager, and then I like,well, you know, you talk to your
manager and then I want, youknow, we'll go to hr, we're
(12:51):
gonna have conversation, we'regonna have to document, right.
And what is that about?
Like, who are we protectinghere?
Because it really looks like weprotect the perpetrator or
we're protecting theorganization, right.
So I would argue that the testof criminal behavior is the same
(13:14):
as it is on the street, but wejust treat it differently at
work, and it's completelyunacceptable, completely
unacceptable.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
And so an organization can identify,
define behaviorally what is notacceptable and then hold people
accountable for that behavior.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yes, getting back to the criminal piece of the
criminal act, you know,organizations have really lost
the moral authority to governthemselves when it comes to
bullying, harassment and sexualabuse at work.
Right, and what is interestingto me, because there's like
(14:02):
there's an inspector general foreverything right, this is all
these independent bodies, butwhen it comes to these three
issues impacting there's about161 million people work in the
US and if 30%, to varyingdegrees, have been bullied in
the last six months I'm nottalking career, I'm not talking
(14:24):
a year, even half a year that's48.3 million people.
Where do they go Like?
What is the avenue they cantake to be protected?
So I think you know part ofwhat we need to do in terms of
solution is have independent IGtype bodies that investigate
(14:45):
these issues, then holdorganizations and individuals
accountable at a civil level, ata work, labor law level and
also a criminal level.
That is how we'll make change.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
Yeah, and here in the US for some infractions they
can be criminally prosecuted bythe organization or by the
individual to which they happen,but not all.
And I also will say there is acontinuum of egregiousness on
the behavior.
So there's really awful andterrible things that you would
(15:20):
get arrested on the street fordoing, and then there might be
things that are more subtle andmore manipulative that you
wouldn't really be noticed doing.
So all of those fit into thecategory of what categorizes
workplace bullying, but there isa continuum of egregiousness,
yeah absolutely and those moreegregious.
(15:40):
You would recommend anorganization handle them as they
would stealing or violentoutburst with a gun or a knife.
Would you recommend that theirhand-.
You can't do that Right, youcan't do that.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
That's against the law.
You cannot do that.
So don't protect that person,right?
What are you doing?
You need to give your head ashake.
And the other piece of that is,for these issues, it's
preventable.
It is preventable.
There's intervention methodslike we can assess it, we can
diagnose it, we can see it.
You can then intervene to fixit.
(16:19):
And then postvention measurestoo, right?
So if we were actually to lookat this issue in a holistic way,
there's multiple points rightwhere we can do something
differently.
But again, I think it's likeit's this too hard to touch pile
and although you know, when48.3 million people are
(16:41):
experiencing it at any giventime, it's just easier not to,
and it's easier to blame thetarget.
You're too sensitive, right?
That's not what they meant.
They're a good, they're a goodguy and dismiss it and it's,
it's.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
It's just not okay within an organization to
leaders and maybe they justagain didn't have their eyes
really on what was going on andthey want to ensure that they
have safe folks who work on themwithin their responsibility and
(17:19):
their employment while they'rethere during the work day.
What can these organizations doto prevent bullying and, very,
very importantly, create a saferwork environment for everyone
there?
What, in your experience?
How do they start that journey?
What's it look like?
Speaker 1 (17:37):
So I think organizations need to walk the
talk, and I was asked a similarquestion the other day around,
like how do you know whereyou're going to work with an
organization?
There's going to be problems,right.
Like how do you know?
And it's like you don't untilyou're in it, but there's some
telltale signs, right.
And number one is clicking onthe website.
(17:59):
Clicking on the website toapply for a job.
And have you ever done that?
And it's first of all, it takesyou to a different site.
Then you have to create anaccount, fair enough.
Then they want all thisinformation, Sure, no problem.
But then you upload your CV andit's going to put it all in
credit and it doesn't do it,right.
And so then you got to go like,how complicated is it to get in
(18:22):
the door?
That should be an indicator foryou, versus LinkedIn, where
it's like you press a button andoff, it goes, right, and you
know the moment of contactshould start, you know, raising
your awareness as to whereyou're going to work.
Because what that says to me isoh, this is a process over
people, organization, right,like there's some ticking of
(18:42):
boxes and it's about youfollowing what they need, or
what they think they need versusyou as an individual getting to
know this organization.
Organizations need to walk thetalk and if they believe in
their people, then it should bepeople over process when it
comes to issues that are arisingor you're witnessing behavior
(19:03):
that is unacceptable.
Concerning bullying-typebehavior, gossip, stop it.
You as the leader, right.
If someone starts to gossipwith you about somebody else in
a harmful way, stop theconversation, model the behavior
right and, like I've saidbefore, like in meetings or
whatever that is, stop, stopwhat's happening and address it,
(19:26):
and you can do that in a verysafe way.
But it's also talking about itand having systems that are safe
for people to report, knowingthat their voice is going to be
heard.
They might you know what?
Sometimes it's not bullying atall.
I've been involved in matterswhere it's performance, it's a
(19:47):
performance issue oh, you'rebullying me for it.
And it's like.
Matters where it's performance,it's a performance issue, you
know you're bullying me for itand it's like well, it's not, it
doesn't meet the test, right,irrelevant, they should still
have the opportunity to complain, to put in that complaint,
knowing it'll be investigated,they'll be heard, right, and the
outcome needs to be transparentto people because other people
(20:08):
are watching.
Right, other people arewatching.
That's how people are learning.
So if you want to have apsychologically safe environment
, start talking about it andthen start showing it and show
up in the right way in order totackle some of these harder
issues.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
I know you hit this in the last podcast, but can you
remind our viewers andlisteners what the test is?
What are the things that reallyqualify this as bullying versus
?
We have some junction and it'snot.
It's not, we're hacking,tendering.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Bullying.
It's an unwanted act that isharmful and designed to hurt
people, so it's not necessarilyabout well.
Was that their intent?
It's more so.
Would any reasonable person seethis as unwanted behavior?
Speaker 3 (20:56):
And a pattern.
You also said and a pattern.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Yeah, and it's not a one-off.
People have bad days, thingshappen and you can apologize and
shift.
Okay, right, and it's not aone-off.
Like people have bad data, likethings happen and people you
can apologize and shift, okay,right, but it's a pattern.
you see the pattern of behavior,and that's why I was talking
about documentation, becausepeople are always like, well, I
don't know, it's like we'lldocument and then you can see it
.
You know, if you're good atspreadsheet, you can put that in
a spreadsheet and you can seewhere and when it's happening
(21:21):
and that trend, because the bestpredictor of future behavior is
past behavior to a large degree, unless someone actually wants
to change.
So you're not going to see lessof it, you'll see more of it.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Yeah yeah.
And as you think about anorganization framing their
culture, we do a lot of work andreally encourage leadership to
identify the cultural tenets,the values the organization
wants to embrace and then shapethe culture to meet that.
Because in our view culture iswhat people do when no one's
(21:55):
looking.
What recommendations would yougive an organization to include
this really importantpsychological safety element in
their cultural expectations?
Speaker 1 (22:09):
The majority of places I've worked certainly in
conference rooms, in boardrooms,in classrooms even will have
the mission and value of thatinstitution somewhere.
Right, it's on a plaque, it'son a whatever on the wall.
Revise it to includepsychological safety.
That's the first step.
Actually, put words to it If webelieve in that and we want our
(22:31):
workers to come and feel safeand be safe and be productive
and supported and all thosethings.
Put it in your mission, put itin your values so people can see
it and hold you accountable tothat.
And then you've got to startshowing it.
And that can be differentthings, like your benefits
program.
Certainly in Canada it isprescribed to us, right, if
(22:52):
you're lucky enough to havebenefit and it's like well,
that's interesting and you havethe right.
You know, pardon me, you canoften have access to counseling,
but why is it three sessions?
Why is it?
Hi?
How are you Fix the problem?
Nice to see you.
It's almost unethical.
Or, you know, if I want moremassage and less acupuncture,
(23:16):
why can't I have that?
You know, like why?
What are we doing asorganizations in terms of making
things employee-centered andasking people what do you need,
what do you want?
We can't do everything, butwe'll hear you.
We'll at least hear you.
It's like a range of thingsorganizations can do.
(23:37):
And again, going back to whatwe talked earlier, start talking
about it in meetings.
Going back to what we talkedearlier, start talking about it
in meetings.
And if you're a leader or ifyou're a consultant going into
an organization, look at thedepartments that have the
highest turnover Right, becausepeople are not beating down the
door of human resources toreport abuse at work.
They're not why, generallyspeaking, it's unsafe.
(24:00):
Secondly, often nothing happens.
Thirdly, you become biggertarget and when people ask my
advice in terms of what do I do,it's like well, look at your
values in terms of what do youand how are you going to protect
yourself?
Sometimes it's not safe tospeak up.
Sometimes it's safer to lookfor a new job, and that's what
the majority of people do, andthat's where you see the highest
(24:22):
turnover rates, right in thatwork group.
And then the people that staythey're there out of fear, right
, they're surviving, and I don'treally want to work in an
organization where the goal isto survive, and I do hear that a
lot right, so I I think we needto look at that differently too
(24:42):
.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
And there's a financial reason for an
organization to put this frontand center.
Can you speak to that a littlebit?
This costs workplaces a lot ofmoney.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
A lot of money, yeah, and it costs you lost
productivity and you know, 50%of the time.
So, for an individual who'sbeing bullied at work or abused
at work, 50% of their time lostproductivity because they're
worried about what's going tohappen to them.
Increased use of employeeassistance, increased time off,
(25:16):
increased medication right,Short-term disability, long-term
disability lawsuits andreputational damage.
I'm sure you've heard it whereit's like oh, you don't want to
work there.
They're not good to people,it's not who you want to be.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
And it's very clear yeah, especially as you've
helped to define it today what abad, toxic, bullying
environment could look like.
Conversely, what we see alsofrom some what we believe to be
some very strong,cultural-focused companies,
where one of the commonalitiesin these companies is people you
(25:57):
mentioned psychological safetythat people feel comfortable
being who they are when theywalk through that door.
They don't have to change whothey are when they walk through
that door.
What they have to do is abideby the standards and the values
of that organization and theproductivity requirements, but
(26:19):
they can still do it while beingthemselves and without fear.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Absolutely and I like how you said that, like being
accountable to theprofessionalism and conduct and
expectations.
Like you as an employee,there's a test you need to meet
and some people like reallystruggle with that.
Like you cannot send peopleemails with capital L, like
you're yelling at them.
You cannot go into someone'soffice and yell at them right or
(26:45):
intentionally be horrible.
You cannot do that and thatneeds to be held to account for
sure.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Yeah, Well, as we wrap up this very compelling
dialogue about whatorganizations can do, is there
anything you want to leave ourlisteners and viewers with about
this topic?
As a last piece of advice, sure.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Thank you, I do.
Workplace bullying, workplaceharassment, workplace sexual
abuse is violence and it impactsthe majority of us in our
career.
It is serious, it is harmful,it hurts our mental health, it
hurts our physical health.
(27:30):
It is preventable and,generally speaking, we can do
better and we need to hold eachother to a higher standard and
we need to hold organizations totheir values.
Right, and if someone isperpetrating abuse at work, they
need to be dealt with.
You have the right to go towork and be safe, and part of
(27:52):
that is your psychologicalsafety.
A big part of that is.
And so what?
I ask people, whether it's aclient, whether it's a colleague
, whether it's student, whateverfriend.
I talk about three things.
Number one to get yourselfright, whether it's an
organization or whether you'rean individual in the
organization, you need to havethe ability to dream big.
(28:12):
And by dreaming big, it allowsyou to be innovative.
And until we're innovative, westart rethinking some of the
structurally violent systemsthat we work in.
Right, and policies work, theydo, but they're designed to work
the way they were written, soit doesn't mean that it's
(28:33):
actually helpful to people,right?
So until we're in a place wherewe can rewire and rethink and
reimagine what safety in theworkplace looks like.
We just have to keep dreamingbig.
Number two I encourage people todo what's right, not what's
easy, and that is really hardand, like I mentioned, like that
too hard to touch pile oh, somebullying.
(28:55):
Well, you know, maybe it'll goaway, maybe it'll no.
You as a leader, you as anindividual, you need to be able
to touch that pile right and uhand do something with it in a
safe and positive way.
And if you don't know how, youneed to get trained on how to do
that.
And then, lastly, people reallyneed to finish what they start,
(29:15):
because there's a lot of pridewhen it comes to that.
So if you are actually anorganization that puts people
over process, that valuespsychological safety, then do it
.
Do it and show it, and not oncea year, but every day, in every
(29:38):
way, which should be a safeplace and dealing with issues of
bullying, harassment and sexualabuse, violence in a different
way, then I think we're reallygoing to change the trajectory
of what it's like to go to work,and wouldn't that be great,
wouldn't that be great.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Well, we will have some of your articles and
resources on our website as thisepisode drops.
How can people reach you?
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Sure, you can reach out to me at Adler University,
you can follow me on LinkedIn oryou can follow me in Forbes,
forbescom, where I'm a writerthere, and I'd love to hear from
you.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Some of the Forbes articles are amazing.
That's how I learned about you.
So, yeah, yeah.
So thank you, viewers for, for,and listeners for watching, and
and and weighing in on thisvery important topic.
Thank you, dr Walker, for beinghere and, ken, is there
(30:41):
anything you want to end up with?
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Just that.
If you are listening or viewingand you find yourself in any of
the situations that Dr Walkerhas shared with us over these
two podcasts, we woulddefinitely encourage you to take
those steps to find resourcesto be able to help find
assistance and put yourself in asafer environment, and then
(31:04):
find some good guidance that canhelp you take those next steps,
once you're out of that, torecovery, because no one should
have to deal with that.
So again, thank you, dr Walter,or Dr Walter, we truly
appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
The Four Bars podcast has been brought to you by
Edges Inc.
A growth advisory firm based inBentonville, arkansas.
I founded the company in 2001.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Edges promotes growth , people, companies and ideas.
Our team collaboration tool,called Interface Methods, is a
basis for teams to work togethermore collaboratively,
understand each other and acceptdifferences and address
challenges together.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
We also started a non-profit called Unform your
Bias.
We teach kids and their adultinfluencers how to utilize
storytelling as a means toreduce bias in the world.
We hope you'll check us out,subscribe to our podcast and
look at our website.
Why is it?
Speaker 1 (00:01):
if you are touched sexually in an unwanted way.
If you were on the street, thecops would show up right.
But you're at work and you'relike, well, you know, you talk
to your manager and then I want,you know, we'll go to HR, we're
going to have a conversation,we're going to have to document,
right, and what is that about?
Like, who are we protectinghere?
(00:22):
Because it really looks like weprotect the perpetrator.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Welcome to the 4 Bars podcast.
I'm Ken.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Leith, and I'm Patti Leith.
We're your hosts for somecompelling dialogue, encouraging
our listeners to strengthentheir connections and build
strong communities, lifting eachother up and connecting in ways
that matter.
We named the podcast 4 Bars asa reference to how hard we work
to find a Four Bars connectionon our devices.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
And we wondered what could happen with relationships
if we worked as hard atconnecting.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Let's find out.
Welcome back to Four BarsPodcast.
I'm Patti Leith, your co-host.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
And I'm Dan Leith.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
We'd like to welcome.
Dr Jason Walker is the Directorof Health and Wellness
Psychology and IndustrialOrganizational Psychology
graduate programs at AdlerUniversity and an adjunct
clinical professor at CityUniversity of Seattle.
A thought leader intrauma-informed leadership, he
holds dual doctorates in generaland clinical psychology and is
(01:19):
internationally recognized forhis work on workplace violence,
bullying and harassment.
His research reframes workplaceviolence as a public health and
safety crisis, shapingorganizational policy and
leadership practices.
Dr Walker's insights have beenfeatured in Forbes, newsweek,
msn, yahoo and the Globe andMail.
(01:42):
He has authored over 50academic publications and was
appointed a serving member ofthe Order of St John by Her
Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, oneof several national honors
awarded for his leadership andservice.
We are so excited to have himhere with us.
If you didn't get the firstpart of this, you have to watch
it.
It's amazingly compelling andwe are so excited to have you
(02:05):
back, dr Walker.
Thank you for being here.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Yes, thank you.
Welcome back.
In the first episode if youweren't able to join us.
Dr Walker walked us throughreally what workplace bullying
can look like, how it can impactpeople, through what could be
some of the strategies foridentifying it, seeking
(02:31):
assistance with that and evenrecovery of that.
So through this episode we'regoing to go a bit deeper in some
additional topics there andjust provide some more
information for those of you whomaybe are seeing this occur,
maybe have experienced yourself,and these hopefully will have
you walking away with some toolsthat will help better equip you
(02:52):
if you find yourself in thatunfortunate situation.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Yeah, I think the last episode got deeper into
what is it, how do I know ifit's happening to me and what do
I do about it.
We talked a bit about theimpact on corporations, the cost
and the impact on culture, butwe want to get more systemic in
this episode.
Why do you think companiessometimes allow the bullying
(03:15):
behavior to continue to go on,and what blind spots enable it?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Great question, and I think it's one of those things
where it's, in that, too hard totouch pile.
Bullying, harassment, sexualabuse is, in this, too hard to
touch pile, and we don't reallytrain people how to touch the
hard stuff, so quite often, itis better, in the minds of some
people, to ignore, to avoid, uh,and to hope that something will
(03:43):
go away.
The problem being, though, hopeis not a strategy, and while
you're waiting right for this tomagically disappear and you
have a legal obligation toprotect your employees and keep
them safe, they're gettingharmed, so I think that's the
first thing we need to thinkabout.
(04:03):
Why do organizations not dealwith it as well?
Because it's often the highperformer and it's often the
leader and human resourcedepartments, and there are great
HR people, there's great HRdepartments out there.
Inevitably, though, hr is thereto protect the organization, not
(04:23):
there to protect you as theworker, and if a complaint is
filed and you have a policy thatoften, like I said before,
isn't necessarily worth thepaper it's written on, when
there's an investigation, we'reasking people with no
investigative experience and Iknow that because I teach HR and
we don't't teach them this togo and investigate something
(04:45):
serious, and it doesn't reallymake sense.
So how that lens is looked atis was the policy followed, was
there a policy breach?
And what we really need to belooking at is was the behavior
unwanted and harmful and isthere a pattern of it?
So I think those are some ofthe key reasons, but especially
(05:10):
when it's your rainmaker, whenyour rainmaker is acting in a
toxic, unsafe way bullying,harassment, sexual abuse,
whatever that is we tend to turna blind eye and it's completely
unacceptable.
Yeah, we tend to turn a blindeye, and it's completely
unacceptable.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Yeah, I remember having a conversation many years
ago with the CEO who wassharing some, some behavior that
any high level leader had inthe organization and and ended
with it's not acceptable.
And I said, well, how long hasit been going on?
And the response was five years.
And I said, well, then,probably in larger companies.
(05:48):
I see it more often, but therethere is a a balance between the
(06:13):
advocacy for the individual andthe organization.
But but investigations areoften, to your point, done
they're done by the HRdepartment and they are not
equipped with all the skills toreally figure out what's going
on.
Yeah, as you think about whatan organization can do
(06:38):
culturally to set the stage forthis not to be allowed, what are
some of those things?
Speaker 1 (06:44):
You know, I think that starts with a deep dive.
A deep dive into who are we andwhat do we believe in.
And uh believe I have workedover the last I don't even want
to say how long I've beenworking for now, uh but pretty
much everyone, or everyorganization, says how much they
value their people and it'slike those are nice words, but
we need to see it in action.
Employees need to see it inaction, employees need to see
(07:06):
that in action.
So if you are an organizationthat values people, put people
over process, it's not reallythat hard.
Look at the policies that youhave in the organization and are
they driven and created in sucha way where they're trauma,
informed, to help people, or arethey a tool, a tool of
(07:27):
discipline, right, or a tool ofpunishment?
And that's actually, you know,just going a little adjacent to
that.
Different types of.
There's different types ofbullies out there.
There's gaslighting bullies,the administrative narcissists,
all these.
One type of bully uses policyas a weapon.
So they know the system reallyreally well and put barriers in
(07:48):
place for you, right, and hidebehind policy or procedure
protocol to suggest that theirbehavior is OK, right.
So think about, like what, whatpolicies you have.
Secondly, certainly up here inCanada the requirement is like
once a year there's a workplacebullying training and here's the
(08:10):
thing there's no standard as towhat that looks like.
I've been in organizationswhere it's like a two three hour
, two, three hour seminar or anonline guided learning that
takes like a day.
I was in one organization it itwas 10 minutes 10 minutes.
They spoke to it and someonewho has no experience in
(08:32):
bullying and harassment andbasically pointed us to the
policy.
So if you are embracing a workculture where you believe in
psychological safety, where youwant employees to feel heard and
you want them to feel respectedand trusted, then invest in
that piece and you want them tofeel respected and trusted, then
invest in that piece.
And maybe it shouldn't be oncea year, right, it's almost as
(08:53):
interesting as a performancereview, right, that we do once a
year and what we should reallybe doing all the time.
But you know, add psychologicalsafety and discussions about
bullying.
Add it to your team meetings.
Like how many?
I was speaking at a conferencethe other day and I said show of
hands, how many people speak tobullying, harassment and sexual
(09:14):
abuse in the leadership meeting?
Nobody.
How about a team meeting,nobody.
How about, you know, like theweekly team briefings, and a few
people put their hands up.
It's like, right, we don't eventalk about it, we don't even
talk about it.
We don't even talk about itbecause we've normalized the
(09:34):
behavior and then we forget.
It's not acceptable.
So I think those are somethings organizations can do.
And then, when someone isharming someone else, deal with
it, but give that person anopportunity and a performance
improvement plan.
Like unless they're really, youknow, causing a high safety
risk, we have to act immediately.
Like try and support thatperson.
Do not promote that person, donot move the complainant to a
(09:58):
different department.
Like deal with the issue andthen show other employees.
This is not acceptable.
If you're in a meeting andsomeone says something sexist or
gendered or harmful, or theytalk over someone else, stop the
meeting, take a step back.
You know, I'd like to revisitwhat was just said here, because
it's not okay.
Right, like be that leader inthe organization.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Those are things that make a difference.
Dan, if someone in anenvironment is unsure, they feel
I think we talked about in thefirst session that they can
maybe feel that there's somebullying going on.
At what point in time does thatbullying turn into a criminal
(10:41):
offense?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Oh, that's interesting and thank you for
bringing that up, and so can I.
I'd like to use a story, andI'd like you to picture for a
moment.
You're at the grocery store,okay, and you got your groceries
.
You're standing in line.
You're wondering why it's goingto cost you so much money to
have two bags of groceries where, before you know, you'd have
four.
You're going through that inyour head and then someone else
(11:04):
someone walks up to you and theystart threatening you.
Going through that in your head, and then someone else, someone
walks up to you and they startthreatening you, right, and they
get in your.
They get in your space andmaybe they do assault you.
Maybe they brush up against you, maybe they push you or they
shove you, Maybe they're yellingat you, maybe they're trying to
touch you in a sexual wayGuaranteed, although someone
might not immediately step in,guaranteed.
(11:25):
Someone is calling the police,right, and so then the police
show up and they have videoevidence, right, and they have
witness statements and thatindividual is likely going to be
arrested and charged.
Right.
Then they go through the courtsystem.
And why is it that when we go towork, there's a different set
(11:45):
of rules, and when you're inthat grocery store, you're not
going to be asked to, you know,I just need you to step back and
document.
And, by the way, I need you tobe professional and calm, right,
because in society we know thatviolence is violence and we
know that violent acts are notacceptable.
But then you go to work andit's like, well, you know, jason
(12:09):
, it's not really that bad right, and you know document.
But I need you to stayprofessional, maybe, you know,
just try and avoid them, right?
And, by the way, can you sit inthat meeting with them?
Because you wouldn't go back tothe grocery store with that
person the next day, right backto the grocery store with that
(12:29):
person the next day, right?
So it's a different set ofbizarre rules and that criminal
piece and non-lawyer, everystate is different, every
province is different.
But why is it if you are touchedsexually in an unwanted way?
If you were on the street, thecops would show up, right.
But you're at work and you'relike well, you know, you talk to
your manager, and then I like,well, you know, you talk to your
manager and then I want, youknow, we'll go to hr, we're
(12:51):
gonna have conversation, we'regonna have to document, right.
And what is that about?
Like, who are we protectinghere?
Because it really looks like weprotect the perpetrator or
we're protecting theorganization, right.
So I would argue that the testof criminal behavior is the same
(13:14):
as it is on the street, but wejust treat it differently at
work, and it's completelyunacceptable, completely
unacceptable.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
And so an organization can identify,
define behaviorally what is notacceptable and then hold people
accountable for that behavior.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yes, getting back to the criminal piece of the
criminal act, you know,organizations have really lost
the moral authority to governthemselves when it comes to
bullying, harassment and sexualabuse at work.
Right, and what is interestingto me, because there's like
(14:02):
there's an inspector general foreverything right, this is all
these independent bodies, butwhen it comes to these three
issues impacting there's about161 million people work in the
US and if 30%, to varyingdegrees, have been bullied in
the last six months I'm nottalking career, I'm not talking
(14:24):
a year, even half a year that's48.3 million people.
Where do they go Like?
What is the avenue they cantake to be protected?
So I think you know part ofwhat we need to do in terms of
solution is have independent IGtype bodies that investigate
(14:45):
these issues, then holdorganizations and individuals
accountable at a civil level, ata work, labor law level and
also a criminal level.
That is how we'll make change.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
Yeah, and here in the US for some infractions they
can be criminally prosecuted bythe organization or by the
individual to which they happen,but not all.
And I also will say there is acontinuum of egregiousness on
the behavior.
So there's really awful andterrible things that you would
(15:20):
get arrested on the street fordoing, and then there might be
things that are more subtle andmore manipulative that you
wouldn't really be noticed doing.
So all of those fit into thecategory of what categorizes
workplace bullying, but there isa continuum of egregiousness,
yeah absolutely and those moreegregious.
(15:40):
You would recommend anorganization handle them as they
would stealing or violentoutburst with a gun or a knife.
Would you recommend that theirhand-.
You can't do that Right, youcan't do that.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
That's against the law.
You cannot do that.
So don't protect that person,right?
What are you doing?
You need to give your head ashake.
And the other piece of that is,for these issues, it's
preventable.
It is preventable.
There's intervention methodslike we can assess it, we can
diagnose it, we can see it.
You can then intervene to fixit.
(16:19):
And then postvention measurestoo, right?
So if we were actually to lookat this issue in a holistic way,
there's multiple points rightwhere we can do something
differently.
But again, I think it's likeit's this too hard to touch pile
and although you know, when48.3 million people are
(16:41):
experiencing it at any giventime, it's just easier not to,
and it's easier to blame thetarget.
You're too sensitive, right?
That's not what they meant.
They're a good, they're a goodguy and dismiss it and it's,
it's.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
It's just not okay within an organization to
leaders and maybe they justagain didn't have their eyes
really on what was going on andthey want to ensure that they
have safe folks who work on themwithin their responsibility and
(17:19):
their employment while they'rethere during the work day.
What can these organizations doto prevent bullying and, very,
very importantly, create a saferwork environment for everyone
there?
What, in your experience?
How do they start that journey?
What's it look like?
Speaker 1 (17:37):
So I think organizations need to walk the
talk, and I was asked a similarquestion the other day around,
like how do you know whereyou're going to work with an
organization?
There's going to be problems,right.
Like how do you know?
And it's like you don't untilyou're in it, but there's some
telltale signs, right.
And number one is clicking onthe website.
(17:59):
Clicking on the website toapply for a job.
And have you ever done that?
And it's first of all, it takesyou to a different site.
Then you have to create anaccount, fair enough.
Then they want all thisinformation, Sure, no problem.
But then you upload your CV andit's going to put it all in
credit and it doesn't do it,right.
And so then you got to go like,how complicated is it to get in
(18:22):
the door?
That should be an indicator foryou, versus LinkedIn, where
it's like you press a button andoff, it goes, right, and you
know the moment of contactshould start, you know, raising
your awareness as to whereyou're going to work.
Because what that says to me isoh, this is a process over
people, organization, right,like there's some ticking of
(18:42):
boxes and it's about youfollowing what they need, or
what they think they need versusyou as an individual getting to
know this organization.
Organizations need to walk thetalk and if they believe in
their people, then it should bepeople over process when it
comes to issues that are arisingor you're witnessing behavior
(19:03):
that is unacceptable.
Concerning bullying-typebehavior, gossip, stop it.
You as the leader, right.
If someone starts to gossipwith you about somebody else in
a harmful way, stop theconversation, model the behavior
right and, like I've saidbefore, like in meetings or
whatever that is, stop, stopwhat's happening and address it,
(19:26):
and you can do that in a verysafe way.
But it's also talking about itand having systems that are safe
for people to report, knowingthat their voice is going to be
heard.
They might you know what?
Sometimes it's not bullying atall.
I've been involved in matterswhere it's performance, it's a
(19:47):
performance issue oh, you'rebullying me for it.
And it's like.
Matters where it's performance,it's a performance issue, you
know you're bullying me for itand it's like well, it's not, it
doesn't meet the test, right,irrelevant, they should still
have the opportunity to complain, to put in that complaint,
knowing it'll be investigated,they'll be heard, right, and the
outcome needs to be transparentto people because other people
(20:08):
are watching.
Right, other people arewatching.
That's how people are learning.
So if you want to have apsychologically safe environment
, start talking about it andthen start showing it and show
up in the right way in order totackle some of these harder
issues.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
I know you hit this in the last podcast, but can you
remind our viewers andlisteners what the test is?
What are the things that reallyqualify this as bullying versus
?
We have some junction and it'snot.
It's not, we're hacking,tendering.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Bullying.
It's an unwanted act that isharmful and designed to hurt
people, so it's not necessarilyabout well.
Was that their intent?
It's more so.
Would any reasonable person seethis as unwanted behavior?
Speaker 3 (20:56):
And a pattern.
You also said and a pattern.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Yeah, and it's not a one-off.
People have bad days, thingshappen and you can apologize and
shift.
Okay, right, and it's not aone-off.
Like people have bad data, likethings happen and people you
can apologize and shift, okay,right, but it's a pattern.
you see the pattern of behavior,and that's why I was talking
about documentation, becausepeople are always like, well, I
don't know, it's like we'lldocument and then you can see it
.
You know, if you're good atspreadsheet, you can put that in
a spreadsheet and you can seewhere and when it's happening
(21:21):
and that trend, because the bestpredictor of future behavior is
past behavior to a large degree, unless someone actually wants
to change.
So you're not going to see lessof it, you'll see more of it.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Yeah yeah.
And as you think about anorganization framing their
culture, we do a lot of work andreally encourage leadership to
identify the cultural tenets,the values the organization
wants to embrace and then shapethe culture to meet that.
Because in our view culture iswhat people do when no one's
(21:55):
looking.
What recommendations would yougive an organization to include
this really importantpsychological safety element in
their cultural expectations?
Speaker 1 (22:09):
The majority of places I've worked certainly in
conference rooms, in boardrooms,in classrooms even will have
the mission and value of thatinstitution somewhere.
Right, it's on a plaque, it'son a whatever on the wall.
Revise it to includepsychological safety.
That's the first step.
Actually, put words to it If webelieve in that and we want our
(22:31):
workers to come and feel safeand be safe and be productive
and supported and all thosethings.
Put it in your mission, put itin your values so people can see
it and hold you accountable tothat.
And then you've got to startshowing it.
And that can be differentthings, like your benefits
program.
Certainly in Canada it isprescribed to us, right, if
(22:52):
you're lucky enough to havebenefit and it's like well,
that's interesting and you havethe right.
You know, pardon me, you canoften have access to counseling,
but why is it three sessions?
Why is it?
Hi?
How are you Fix the problem?
Nice to see you.
It's almost unethical.
Or, you know, if I want moremassage and less acupuncture,
(23:16):
why can't I have that?
You know, like why?
What are we doing asorganizations in terms of making
things employee-centered andasking people what do you need,
what do you want?
We can't do everything, butwe'll hear you.
We'll at least hear you.
It's like a range of thingsorganizations can do.
(23:37):
And again, going back to whatwe talked earlier, start talking
about it in meetings.
Going back to what we talkedearlier, start talking about it
in meetings.
And if you're a leader or ifyou're a consultant going into
an organization, look at thedepartments that have the
highest turnover Right, becausepeople are not beating down the
door of human resources toreport abuse at work.
They're not why, generallyspeaking, it's unsafe.
(24:00):
Secondly, often nothing happens.
Thirdly, you become biggertarget and when people ask my
advice in terms of what do I do,it's like well, look at your
values in terms of what do youand how are you going to protect
yourself?
Sometimes it's not safe tospeak up.
Sometimes it's safer to lookfor a new job, and that's what
the majority of people do, andthat's where you see the highest
(24:22):
turnover rates, right in thatwork group.
And then the people that staythey're there out of fear, right
, they're surviving, and I don'treally want to work in an
organization where the goal isto survive, and I do hear that a
lot right, so I I think we needto look at that differently too
(24:42):
.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
And there's a financial reason for an
organization to put this frontand center.
Can you speak to that a littlebit?
This costs workplaces a lot ofmoney.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
A lot of money, yeah, and it costs you lost
productivity and you know, 50%of the time.
So, for an individual who'sbeing bullied at work or abused
at work, 50% of their time lostproductivity because they're
worried about what's going tohappen to them.
Increased use of employeeassistance, increased time off,
(25:16):
increased medication right,Short-term disability, long-term
disability lawsuits andreputational damage.
I'm sure you've heard it whereit's like oh, you don't want to
work there.
They're not good to people,it's not who you want to be.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
And it's very clear yeah, especially as you've
helped to define it today what abad, toxic, bullying
environment could look like.
Conversely, what we see alsofrom some what we believe to be
some very strong,cultural-focused companies,
where one of the commonalitiesin these companies is people you
(25:57):
mentioned psychological safetythat people feel comfortable
being who they are when theywalk through that door.
They don't have to change whothey are when they walk through
that door.
What they have to do is abideby the standards and the values
of that organization and theproductivity requirements, but
(26:19):
they can still do it while beingthemselves and without fear.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Absolutely and I like how you said that, like being
accountable to theprofessionalism and conduct and
expectations.
Like you as an employee,there's a test you need to meet
and some people like reallystruggle with that.
Like you cannot send peopleemails with capital L, like
you're yelling at them.
You cannot go into someone'soffice and yell at them right or
(26:45):
intentionally be horrible.
You cannot do that and thatneeds to be held to account for
sure.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Yeah, Well, as we wrap up this very compelling
dialogue about whatorganizations can do, is there
anything you want to leave ourlisteners and viewers with about
this topic?
As a last piece of advice, sure.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Thank you, I do.
Workplace bullying, workplaceharassment, workplace sexual
abuse is violence and it impactsthe majority of us in our
career.
It is serious, it is harmful,it hurts our mental health, it
hurts our physical health.
(27:30):
It is preventable and,generally speaking, we can do
better and we need to hold eachother to a higher standard and
we need to hold organizations totheir values.
Right, and if someone isperpetrating abuse at work, they
need to be dealt with.
You have the right to go towork and be safe, and part of
(27:52):
that is your psychologicalsafety.
A big part of that is.
And so what?
I ask people, whether it's aclient, whether it's a colleague
, whether it's student, whateverfriend.
I talk about three things.
Number one to get yourselfright, whether it's an
organization or whether you'rean individual in the
organization, you need to havethe ability to dream big.
(28:12):
And by dreaming big, it allowsyou to be innovative.
And until we're innovative, westart rethinking some of the
structurally violent systemsthat we work in.
Right, and policies work, theydo, but they're designed to work
the way they were written, soit doesn't mean that it's
(28:33):
actually helpful to people,right?
So until we're in a place wherewe can rewire and rethink and
reimagine what safety in theworkplace looks like.
We just have to keep dreamingbig.
Number two I encourage people todo what's right, not what's
easy, and that is really hardand, like I mentioned, like that
too hard to touch pile oh, somebullying.
(28:55):
Well, you know, maybe it'll goaway, maybe it'll no.
You as a leader, you as anindividual, you need to be able
to touch that pile right and uhand do something with it in a
safe and positive way.
And if you don't know how, youneed to get trained on how to do
that.
And then, lastly, people reallyneed to finish what they start,
(29:15):
because there's a lot of pridewhen it comes to that.
So if you are actually anorganization that puts people
over process, that valuespsychological safety, then do it
.
Do it and show it, and not oncea year, but every day, in every
(29:38):
way, which should be a safeplace and dealing with issues of
bullying, harassment and sexualabuse, violence in a different
way, then I think we're reallygoing to change the trajectory
of what it's like to go to work,and wouldn't that be great,
wouldn't that be great.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Well, we will have some of your articles and
resources on our website as thisepisode drops.
How can people reach you?
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Sure, you can reach out to me at Adler University,
you can follow me on LinkedIn oryou can follow me in Forbes,
forbescom, where I'm a writerthere, and I'd love to hear from
you.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Some of the Forbes articles are amazing.
That's how I learned about you.
So, yeah, yeah.
So thank you, viewers for, for,and listeners for watching, and
and and weighing in on thisvery important topic.
Thank you, dr Walker, for beinghere and, ken, is there
(30:41):
anything you want to end up with?
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Just that.
If you are listening or viewingand you find yourself in any of
the situations that Dr Walkerhas shared with us over these
two podcasts, we woulddefinitely encourage you to take
those steps to find resourcesto be able to help find
assistance and put yourself in asafer environment, and then
(31:04):
find some good guidance that canhelp you take those next steps,
once you're out of that, torecovery, because no one should
have to deal with that.
So again, thank you, dr Walter,or Dr Walter, we truly
appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
The Four Bars podcast has been brought to you by
Edges Inc.
A growth advisory firm based inBentonville, arkansas.
I founded the company in 2001.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Edges promotes growth , people, companies and ideas.
Our team collaboration tool,called Interface Methods, is a
basis for teams to work togethermore collaboratively,
understand each other and acceptdifferences and address
challenges together.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
We also started a non-profit called Unform your
Bias.
We teach kids and their adultinfluencers how to utilize
storytelling as a means toreduce bias in the world.
We hope you'll check us out,subscribe to our podcast and
look at our website.
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