April 3, 2025 • 48 mins
Have you ever experienced that moment of frustration when someone isn't approaching a task "the right way" – meaning your way? That universal feeling stands at the heart of disconnection in our relationships, and it's exactly what we tackle in this enlightening episode.
Ken and Patti take us behind the scenes of their growth advisory firm Edges and reveal the origin story of their behavioral assessment tool, Interface Methods. Unlike psychological assessments that identify relatively fixed traits, Interface Methods focuses on three key behavioral differences that can be adapted: detail orientation, idea processing, and influencing style. These differences affect every interaction we have, whether with colleagues, clients, or even spouses.
We share fascinating real-world examples that will have you nodding in recognition – from the infamous "dishwasher stacking debates" that plague many relationships to the surprising case of a CFO whose seemingly disorganized filing system was actually perfect for his cognitive style. What makes these stories so powerful is how they illuminate the judgment that underlies most disconnection: "You're not doing it right."
Organizations using Interface Methods for team building and onboarding report seeing team integration accelerate by 60-65% compared to traditional methods. Why? Because when team members understand each other's natural preferences – whether they're "Evergreens" who thrive on structure and detailed execution or "Changing Leaves" who focus on big-picture outcomes – they can adapt their communication styles accordingly rather than expecting everyone to work like they do.
The beauty of this approach lies in its practicality. Once you recognize these behavioral patterns, you can leverage differences as strengths rather than sources of conflict. This episode offers concrete strategies for improving connections in every area of your life – from professional teams to personal relationships.
Try spotting these behavioral differences in your next interaction. Notice if someone prefers details or big-picture thinking. Then adapt your approach accordingly and watch how quickly your connection strengthens. Share your experiences with us at fourbarspodcast.com, where we're building a community dedicated to meaningful connection.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the 4.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Bars podcast.
I'm Ken Leith and I'm PattiLeith.
We're your hosts for somecompelling dialogue, encouraging
our listeners to strengthentheir connections and build
strong communities, lifting eachother up and connecting in ways
that matter.
We named the podcast 4 Bars asa reference to how hard we work
to find a 4 Bars connection onour devices.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
And we wondered what could happen with relationships
if we worked as hard atconnecting.
Let's find out.
Welcome back to Four Bars.
I'm one of your hosts, Ken Lee.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
And I'm Patti Lee.
Welcome back.
It's good to see you again.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Indeed, you're going to notice that this week is
Patti and I together here and wehad some feedback and some
questions about informationabout four bars that some of our
viewers wanted to know a littlebit more about, and also how
did four bars?
And exploring good connectionsin life, business and community.
(00:53):
How's that connected to what wedo for a profession, for our
job?
And so today we're going totalk a little bit about that,
share some information aboutsome of the things we utilize,
just to give some background onthat.
I want to start talk a littlebit about that, share some
information about some of thethings we utilize, just to give
some background on that.
I want to start with a littlebit about our company, which is
called Edges, which Pallystarted back in 2001.
(01:15):
Could you give us a littlebackstory on that?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Yeah, so Edges stands for.
I'm big on acronyms, Ken is notas much, but he goes with it.
It stands for Everyday.
Growth Equals Success, and Istarted as a one-person shop
doing leadership, coaching andtraining, and we have evolved.
Ken joined me in 2006.
We have evolved into a growthadvisory firm where we work with
(01:39):
organizations to plan for theirgrowth and to develop their
communication and their teammembers in order to meet their
growth goals.
We have a lot of fun with it.
We've had some amazingexperiences in doing that.
Work pieces is this you knowthis concept of connecting
(02:05):
deeply with one another in waysthat help us work out our
challenges together, and sowe've done a lot of work in this
space.
That is specifically related toconnectivity and engagement and
that's kind of how it connects.
We have also done quite a bitof work in our coaching and
helping people explore theirconnections, not only at work
(02:27):
but also in their personal lives, in their families, friends,
community work, civic groups, etcetera.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Now that's a good way to explain that.
So, thank you Really, whatPatty said, our business really
is about helping otherbusinesses grow, and we do that
with several differentmethodologies and focuses for
those businesses that involvepeople from the C-suite down to
the folks in the front line,because that is the best way we
(02:58):
have found to really geteveryone engaged and everyone
moving in the same direction geteveryone engaged and everyone
moving in the same direction.
Some of the key pieces thatcome along with that are, yes,
understanding.
Do I have a good plan?
Do I have a roadmap for growththat I can share, that I can
(03:19):
measure, that I can adjust ifwe're not moving in the
direction we need to get to ormoving quick enough?
Also, of course, then what arethe processes that we have and
are they aligned?
Do people understand them fully?
Do they understand where thereare transitions, things of that
nature?
Two big pieces that I'll go to aslightly different area of the
business here that make all ofthis happen.
(03:40):
And people ask us frequently,when we go in to meet a new
potential client, what is itthat we do a little differently?
While we focus on those otherareas and we do also do
executive and leadershipcoaching.
We do focus on culture andcommunication a lot because to
make everything take off, tomake it really as productive as
(04:03):
can be and have peopleunderstand that they're in a
workplace where they understandtheir roles and they understand
how they're going to interactwith others and what those
engagements might look likeWithout them.
People don't necessarilygravitate towards that and then
there can be some stagnation,there can be some stalling.
(04:24):
One of the tools that we use,which was created and Patty will
give us a story here in just asecond on that is a tool called
Interface Methods, which is abehavioral tool, and we're going
to talk a little bit todayabout how that tool also helps
people and helps businesses growand how they intersect.
(04:45):
Could you talk a little bitabout the tool yeah, I will what
the name of the tool is andeverything.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yeah, I will.
I started working on the toolnot long after I started the
business and in fact, I hadreally thought through the
strategic plan for the businesseven before starting it
strategic plan for the businesseven before starting it.
But I, after doing someresearch, realized that a team's
(05:11):
inability to work together camedown to one prevalent thought,
which is you're not doing itright.
And I can sort of see ourseven-year-old granddaughter
saying that to the five-year-oldwhen I talk about it.
But as team members, we expectpeople to work like we do, and
(05:34):
that was keeping, and it doeskeep, but I realized it was
keeping people from reallycoming together and working
together.
So I started working on a toolthat helped us build a stronger
interface.
That's why we call it InterfaceMethods.
We were originally going tocall it Connect Me, and the team
that was working with me atthis time I know watches the
podcast.
(05:54):
You'll laugh about it,remembering that we opted away
from that because it soundedlike it was a dating site.
So we went with InterfaceMethods.
We wanted to put together abehavioral tool that identified
those differences and we foundthat there were three of them
and when you, when I explainthem, you'll think about not
only your work teams, but alsopeople in communities that you
(06:19):
interact in and people in yourfamily.
The three differences were howmuch detail do we want?
Some people want a lot.
They want to execute process.
They want to be very meticulousabout it.
Some people do not.
They want to think more aboutwhat we're going to do than how
we're going to do it and theywant to stay bigger picture.
When those are different, wejudge the other person's
(06:40):
capabilities.
Second item is how do we processour ideas and how do they go
from zero to 60?
Some of us like to do thatinternally and some of us like
to do that externally.
When it's different, we thinkthe other doesn't have enough
commitment to engage in the waythat we want them to, and we'll
(07:01):
share a little more as we getdeeper into this.
And then the last item is howdo we influence Behaviorally?
What language do we pick whenwe're trying to convince someone
to do something differently?
There are cautious influencerswho are more diplomatic and more
cautious in the way theypresent their message, and there
are direct influencers who aremore forthright and a little
(07:23):
more concise in the way theypresent their message.
These two languages cause ajudgment.
Not only do they cause ajudgment, they cause a
disconnect that keeps us fromgetting our message across, so
super important in anyconnection that we have, whether
it's being married, interactingwith our kids, or people in our
(07:44):
workplace.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
No, it's very true.
It interacts and connects intoall areas of where we live and
as far as all humans, um, likeany great thing or good thing
that is utilized out there,because it doesn't necessarily
get done in a vacuum, and youand your team at the time also
had some assistance from theoutside.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
We did.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Can you talk a little bit about the origin of that
and how that intersected andhelped?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, we did.
We had a client and they arestill a client.
They've been a fantasticbusiness partner for us over the
last 24 years.
And one of their people cameand asked me if I knew of a tool
that was behavioral in naturerather than psychological, and
easier to remember than theMyers-Briggs and a little more
(08:33):
team focused than some of theothers that were out on the
market, like the DISC or theBerkman.
And I said to him you know, I'mworking on one and my
background is in industrialorganizational psychology.
And he laughed.
But he's like you're serious,aren't you?
And I said I am.
And he asked me to tell himabout it.
And I was originally working onthis tool to present at a
(08:56):
mentoring conference for womenwomen in networking conference
and I was designing it toconnect people who were
different so that they couldhelp each other value those
differences.
Yeah, and so I explained allthat to him and and it was
February and he said, um, whatwould it take for us to have it
(09:20):
ready by March?
Uh, by May?
And I said, well, um, I'd needa steering committee that can
meet with me several timesduring that time.
And he asked if he could get adiscount on it for a period of
years, so I gave him a five-yeardiscount.
They're still using it and Iholed up in a coffee shop for
(09:44):
two days and finished the tooland develop the spreadsheet to
generate the feedback.
So that's how it came to be andit has gone through 20
iterations since it was in anExcel spreadsheet.
Now it's online.
Now we have a learning hub.
So lots of fun doing it and afantastic business partner.
The management committee thatworked with my steering
(10:05):
committee consisted of eightmanagers at different levels in
that organization to really helpus get it on point for the
behavioral feedback that teammembers needed in order to not
judge each other and tointentionally adapt for a better
outcome.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Very good.
Thank you, yeah, because itreally brings the richness to.
How do things actually becomewhat they are, so to speak?
And one of the things thatoften people ask us is how does
this behavioral instrumentactually help a business grow?
Okay, because people ask whatis it?
(10:44):
And it's a behavioral tool thatcan help people and one of the
differences, for example, isthat the behavioral tool and
it's is something that, becauseit's behavioral, we can adapt,
we can adjust as, once weunderstand how to utilize it and
the impact of it, how toidentify certain key things
within interactions with othersAgain, good connections and
(11:07):
business and community and lifeand so, with the other
difference there or thatdifference there lies in
psychological assessments andtools.
Really, we don't change ourwiring very easily and you can
speak to this here also in asecond While we can't adapt
behaviorally.
So that's one of the uniquedifferences, why this is a tool
(11:29):
that can really help peopleinteract in a day-to-day basis
in their offices, with theirclients, within their vendor
partners and things like that.
The tool is very effective forthat and we'll give some
examples today as we talk howthat plays out a little bit.
What does that look like?
(11:50):
What do those interactionsentail?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, so personality tools are a little more
ingrained.
When I take a personalityinstrument, whether it's as a
coaching or to queue up a teambuilding, we learn a lot about
ourselves and each other, butwe're not necessarily
identifying characteristics thatwe can adapt or change.
They're sort of inherent in ournature, and so the behavioral
(12:14):
tool is identifyingcharacteristics that can change
if we want them to.
But in order for that to tooccur, we have to recognize the
difference, not as somethingthat is, oh, you're not doing it
right, but something that isreally like, oh, you're coming
at this from a different angle.
I bet between us we can make abetter, whatever right so yeah,
(12:38):
no, that's very good.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Um, because do people do?
They may not let out that sound, but they have a face.
It's on the inside.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
It's on the inside.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
And probably for everyone who is watching today.
It is something that you'veexperienced in your personal
life, in your business life.
As Patty said, this engagementactually works in every phase of
life.
Yes, with children over acertain age of about 13.
13, yeah, and also with spousesand family members Again, just
(13:14):
with friends.
Even we have utilized this, forexample, with married couples.
We've utilized this tool.
I will say it all went well.
There was no bloodshed,everyone took something out of
it and there was a lot of fun.
A fun example is one couple ofthis and talking about some of
(13:36):
the differences.
One of the members was very,very detail-oriented with
respect to that and organized,organizes things very, very well
.
Most of us would love to aspireto that, but in their situation
, she will do things such asensure that everything's aligned
(13:58):
in the pantry a certain way andthat, um, whereas most people
just put it in there andprobably put it in certain areas
close by, but align every label.
Just do these things that areimportant to her, and it keeps
her life moving forward withrespect to as all of us have
something in our lives that wedo, um.
Another thing is how we stack adishwasher, um, and you knew
(14:20):
that there could be discussionsabout dishwashers and we'll talk
about dishwashing a bit.
But her husband is different,dramatically different.
He appreciates the fact thatshe stacks the cans and does all
that, but that's not his thing,so he's not always putting them
back.
That can lead to someconversations that you have
(14:40):
there about that and stackingthe dishwasher.
I will say conversation is veryinteresting.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
I would love to have you delve a little bit into that
and I will add to yeah, so thisgets at that difference of
detail and structure that wewant, where some people are very
detailed and very structured,they want process, steps, they
want to be able to implement andto maintain what they've put in
place.
(15:08):
Um, and, and this particularcouple, she is that person stack
.
I mean, we used to mess withher at christmas uh parties
where we would go in and justturn the labels in her pantry
slightly so that it would justirritate her and we'd all laugh
about it.
But she was very, very strongin the structure and her husband
(15:30):
is less structured and so whenit comes down to stacking the
dishwasher, the more structuredin a couple almost always wants
to restack behind the lessstructured because it is not
meeting the structuralguidelines.
So we were at a we wereactually at my son's graduation
(15:57):
when he texted her a picture ofthe dishwasher as a joke to say,
hey, can I start this, becauseshe's always resecting it behind
him.
And this came out at ourcouples workshop.
So anyway, it's a funny umdifference that many of us have
and we are often attracted topeople who process very
differently from us because it'scool, you complete me and then,
(16:18):
and then you don't, then you'rejust doing it wrong just for
clarity.
We're not referring to me we'renot scenario, just want to make
sure.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Yeah, we're similar in that scenario although you
are more structured than I am, Iam the person that does some
restacking the dishwasheroccasionally.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Yes, and I'm like well, why did I do it in the
first place?
Speaker 1 (16:37):
And I can understand that feeling also.
I've come to learn that.
But again it's something thatwhen we know these differences,
they become more benign.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
But again it's something that when we know
these differences, they becomemore benign and they don't
become things that create stressor friction, because we just
understand they are justdifferent ways of doing it.
Good connections is thewillingness to show up as you're
comfortable showing up, butthen read the room to see where
you might need to adapt in orderto make that connection
(17:13):
stronger, in order to be able tocommunicate in a way that has
greater influence, in order tobe able to support a person in
the way that they need to besupported.
That's what builds strongrelationships, it's what builds
strong community and strongbusinesses yeah.
Back in 2012,.
I published a book and thedishwasher segment is in there
(17:34):
called Judge, not A Guide toInfluence People who Think
Differently.
Yes, and it really is aboutthese differences.
You don't have to take the toolto look for them, to recognize
them and to go ooh, you have alot more detail than me, so I
need to present this with thelevel of detail that you need.
Or the opposite is true oh, youare not thinking about the
(17:55):
detail, so I don't need to showit to you.
I need to talk in terms ofoutcomes, and our natural
tendency is to think oh, you'renot, you're not thinking about
the detail here.
You should let me give it toyou.
And that's not what works whenwe're interacting with people
who just want a different levelof structure in their work.
Absolutely, and the reality ofit is in that difference, this
(18:18):
level of detail, the level ofstructure.
The people who are verystructured are extremely good at
process and implementation andtaking the actions that are
necessary to meet the goals, andthe people who prefer to be big
picture, more visionary, morewhole to parts, are talking in
(18:41):
terms of outcomes and goals.
Both are needed in anythingthat you do.
Actions have to lead to goals,and one of the biggest
challenges in a company that'sgrowing is I'm doing a lot of
work and it's not getting me thegoals that I want, and so you
have to connect those, and ittakes people from both
(19:01):
preferences to come together tomake the work as robust as
possible.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yes, and we are diving in a bit now more into
the interface methods tool andtalking about that, could you
also share the names of thedifferent pieces?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yeah, I can.
And so the individual whoprefers structure, process,
parts to whole is called anevergreen.
And so, if you think about theevergreen, they are consistent
and stable and they don't changea whole lot.
The person who prefers thestrategy, the vision, the bigger
picture and the outcomes theylook at things from whole to
(19:40):
parts.
They're called a changing leafbecause they are ever changing,
they are dynamically looking atthings, they are thinking in a
circular fashion rather than alinear fashion and so those
differences and there's acontinuum.
You can be sort of balanced, youcan be moderate, you can be
really strong.
(20:00):
I'm really strong on thechanging leaf side, but it is
not ability.
So as a strong changing leaf,I've always been really good at
math.
I can balance the books and Ido for our company balance the
books and be very meticulous inthe way that I do that.
(20:20):
I don't make mistakes when I doit, but when I am done, it has
used an enormous amount ofenergy in my psyche.
Um, because that adaptationdoes take energy.
What I want to do when I'm donedoing the books outside of
drink a good glass of wine is,um, I want to, I want to design
something, because that's whatgives me energy in the changing
(20:42):
leaf side of me right, very good.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
And just to point to, not everyone kind of looks the
same, you know, when it comes tosays, oh, this person is more
structured, this person is lessstructured, need more detail
versus less detail.
For example, one of our clientsthey had done, they had grown
and so they built anotherfacility and they moved offices.
(21:08):
Of course, they had movers comein and move the offices.
The CFO of this organizationyou may remember this and he was
very good at what he does, butwe think people who have more
structure versus not having morestructure.
They would have a look like yousaid everything filed, maybe
(21:30):
put in a certain way, labeled acertain way.
He happened to be someone whodid not need all the structure
as a CFO, but he could stilllocate things and I'll give you
an example he would have a stackof files on his desk that he
just seemed to keep and theywould be this size sometimes, um
, but I could.
(21:51):
Also he's going to his officeand was never surprised when he
said I want to show yousomething that we're talking
about and he would look at thispile and just reach into a
folder area and be able to pullout.
Yeah, and he needed, withouthaving any labeling to it or
anything.
I'll fast forward to it, saythat when they did move his
stuff over, they went ahead andfiled everything.
(22:13):
It put him in disarray forabout six months before he
really got comfortable again andstuff.
So these things do happen, butwe don't all look the same in
how we make all this work for us.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah, and in that particular scenario you may
remember that he was a changinglead, yes, and we were surprised
, because we do oftenstereotypically expect something
from a certain role.
Because he was a CFO.
We thought, oh, structure,right.
Yes, and this was early in theuse of the tool.
And what we've come to find outis it really doesn't matter
(22:47):
what your role is.
You can be in either workpreference.
It's just a matter of makingyour work preference work for
the expectations of your role.
And he had done that.
And if you are one of theseless structured people like I am
, you can.
I've got files and I knowexactly where they are.
Ken was asking me the other dayhe's like I'll go downstairs
(23:10):
and get it for you.
Where is it?
And I said, oh, it's in a fileabout this far, about this far
down.
And we both laughed like that'ssort of I know where it is, but
it doesn't look.
It doesn't look structured tothe outside eye.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yeah, it doesn't yeah , but it's a methodology that
works for that person, so tospeak.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Now, on this one, you're more balanced.
You want to talk a little bitabout that?
Yeah, I am You're what we calla connector.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah, so between the changing leaf and the evergreen,
my score was pretty much in themiddle, what we call the middle
set quadrant there.
That area there allows if youthink of it, it's almost like
being bilingual being able tospeak easily move back and forth
between two languages.
In this case, it's easily beingable to move back and forth
(23:58):
between adapting to someoneelse's style.
Yeah, someone who's lessstructured and someone who's
more structured.
I am a changing leaf, as Pattysaid, but I'm balanced.
Someone who's more structured.
I am a changing leaf, as Pattysaid, but I'm balanced.
With that, I always triedespecially in my corporate world
where I worked on beforejoining Edges, I was always
(24:20):
looking to ensure that I triedto make the best decision and
look at all the points of dataand I would sometimes be looking
at something that was more of adetailed kind of solution and
sometimes it was more of I wasgiving information that was more
big picture and not giving allthe detail.
(24:42):
I asked her to come out andwork with my company and work
with my leadership team in orderto be able to take them through
an executive coaching program.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
And the important thing here is, we still got
married.
Yes, just saying.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
I had people at my old job who said that wasn't
going to happen once you had mypsychological wiring.
But what I found out throughthe coaching process that Patty
took them through was, insteadof helping them by giving them
best information, I was actuallynot empowering them.
And I got feedback from them inthese one-on-one meetings that
(25:30):
I would have with them as partof the coaching, which was very
helpful for me, because what itallowed me to do was then to
realize why I thought I wasdoing stuff with good intention.
I was really impeding theirgrowth.
This is what I found that Ineeded to do was to be able to
if I'm going to make decisionsbased upon needing sometimes in
my mind, needing to have moredata, sometimes being a big
picture, to look into theoutcomes.
I needed to share with them mythought process and be able to
(25:52):
really let them understand whysometimes I chose one, why
sometimes I chose the otherinstead of being more consistent
, because being consistent isvery good for people often, um,
but what I did was I took aboutthree months and for any time I
was involved with working withthem on a decision, I had to be
very intentional aboutexplaining the why.
(26:14):
Why was it that I chose thismore details over here versus
maybe something that was alarger, more systemic solution
over here and it really what Isaw was incredible.
It was a wonderful experiencefor me I think for them too is I
actually saw them becomeempowered the way I wanted them
to and they got very confidentin being able to make the same
(26:36):
decisions and they we're not ourdecisions don't have to always
be the same way anyway, theyjust need to have a good outcome
.
But they were able to beconfident in their choice of the
decisions and they could alwayscome and ask me about it.
But I saw them grow as a resultof that and for me that was
very rewarding, because now Iwas kind of living what I wanted
(26:59):
to do originally with them butwasn't doing for them.
So, yeah, that's a littlebackground on that one.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, that's interesting, you know, and I
think this difference is verysignificant when teams are
working together, because we tryhard to really read the other
person and then respondaccordingly to what we see.
But we have a very strongpenchant for the level of detail
(27:26):
we think is necessary to workthrough a problem, which is what
leads to this.
You know, oh, you're not doingit right.
You know you need too muchdetail.
Stop, you're killing my ideas.
Or, on the other side of that,you're not thinking about the
detail is, or on the other sideof that, you're not thinking
about the detail.
One of the things that I havenoticed with you being balanced.
You are very good at what wecall connecting.
(27:46):
You're very good at taking theidea and really thinking about
the parts that will lead to itand then also identifying parts
of our processes that may not beleading to our goals.
But I have noticed too thatwhen I'm really big picture you,
you can go there with me, butyou, you'll have a tendency to
(28:08):
try to fill in the detailsbecause I'm not thinking about
it Right.
And so we do sort of try toadapt and help each other think
through the things that don'tcome quite as naturally, but
when I'm prompted to go deeperinto the details, I can yes.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
I just it takes a lot of brain power and you can
almost smell it burning in there.
It energizes teams.
We see that on a regular basisonce they understand these
differences and that thesedifferences and the that these
differences actually arepowerful.
These differences are thingsthat can enable them to achieve
more together.
And we see it and we utilize it.
(28:53):
For example, we utilize this uhtool when we start an
engagement with a team fordividing their roadmap and
helping them kind of set off andmake sure that they can execute
that roadmap.
Um, we do it when we talk,start talking about processes,
because it's so important tounderstand sometimes who's in
the room and what.
(29:14):
What are their preferences inthese areas, these key
behavioral areas that you wantto make sure sometimes you have
a good balance.
If you have everyone who's bigpicture, you're going to be very
innovative and people are goingto have these really great
ideas.
But what you may lack is theability to turn those ideas and
(29:35):
concept into execution.
It's something that isdeliverable.
So you might find that yourefficiencies go down.
You may find that you're notgoing to market with as many
things.
You're getting conceptual ideasbut you're not really building
them all the way out.
And, conversely, if you havefolks who are predominantly
(29:56):
those folks who are moredetail-oriented, more evergreens
in the room that are working onit, they're going to make sure
it's going to be functional thatit's connecting the dyes.
Those folks who are moredetail-oriented, more evergreens
in the room that are working onit, they're going to make sure
it's going to be functional thatit's connecting the dots A to B
, c.
But typically, what you're notgoing to you might be missing
not necessarily would be, butyou might be missing is that
innovation side that reallypushes it.
(30:17):
So you might find yourselfsliding a little bit with
respect to your competition,staying up with them.
So that's where these thingscome in.
They become bigger issues fororganizations.
Whether you're small or large,they have impact and I know
personal lives.
Let's go ahead.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Well, I was just going to also make, while we're
talking about this detailstructure thing, we have a
tendency to connect more withpeople who want the same level
of detail that we do.
I've even noticed in classeswhere somebody who is an
evergreen is speaking and theevergreens are leaning in to
(30:54):
listen, right, because they'regetting what they need, and the
changing leaves are sitting backlike, oh, it's too much detail
for me, um, and vice versa,right, um, and so one of the
things that that that we've seenin in our work is that there's
a tendency to want to hirepeople more like you and and
(31:16):
that will really impact the workthe team can get done and slant
it more one way or another,when really all ideas need good
execution strategies and allactivities should be leading to
goals and outcomes.
And with only one or two peoplewho prefer detail, the ideas
(31:39):
don't get airborne, and viceversa, with only one or two
people who prefer the ideas,they don't get a lot of
creativity and innovation.
So these are things to thinkabout as you're thinking about
staffing your team.
We often are more comfortablewith somebody that gets us, and
(32:02):
then that's sort of whether werealize it or not, that sort of
comes across in the interviewand the next thing you know your
team is not as balanced asmight benefit the work that your
team does together.
Yeah just a food for thought.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
That is very, very good and something that is
something to keep top of mindtoo.
Again, we've seen some funinteractions over the years,
yeah, so would you tell us aboutone or two?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, I think one of the most substantial was an
organization that was growingpretty rapidly and their CEO was
a changing leaf and their COOwas an evergreen and initially
the difference was substantialenough to sort of drive them a
bit nuts.
(32:52):
But they began quickly torealize together they make a
whole person or together theycan build a really great
strategic plan from the top tothe bottom.
And they got to where theywould really sort of talk about
this in, you know, in staffmeetings like hey, can you ever
(33:14):
green?
That for me?
And and the recognition thatYou're different, you bring
details to the table and andlet's call each other to work
together, was a lot of fun tosee.
And then he would say to her Imay not be coming up with enough
(33:34):
ideas, let's spitball this andlet's spend a little time in
creative land, and so those werekind of fun.
But at the end of the day theyworked together for many years
and they'll both still tell youit was a.
It was a difference that servedthem and their companies
amazingly well.
(33:56):
We also see this differenceoften in married couples, as we
mentioned with the story at thebeginning and the dishwasher
story.
Yes, but you think about amarried couple or a partner, uh,
your significant other?
You don't have to be married,your significant other?
Um, if there's a differencehere, one of you wants to show
(34:17):
up on vacation in a place, findthe location you're staying on
the way and figure out youractivities Once you get there.
I'm not person in ourrelationship.
I've been known to book anAirbnb on the way to the
destination, but what I findoften is there's some really
(34:39):
cool things that if I had doneit a little more planfully, I
would be able to partake inbecause, like all the
snowmobiles are booked or youknow whatever, whereas on the
evergreen side, that vacation isgenerally planned in a
spreadsheet.
And you know we had and myfriends all tease me because I'm
(35:00):
usually the show up and lookgirl but we did have a big
birthday planned for you in 2020.
And I planned a trip for 14people to go to Napa and it was
on a spreadsheet and my friendswere all like how is she doing
this?
But I had all the details.
We ended up not taking the tripbecause it was in May of 2020.
(35:20):
Yes, and the pandemic createdthe trip.
That never was, but that'ssomething else that can be fun
if you let it be.
It can also be super annoyingif you want to plan everything
and I don't, or I want to planeverything and you don't, right,
and so yeah, yeah and again.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Patty created this and we are practitioners, we
utilize this with clients allthe time, but we have some of
the same challenges sometimesand we could we just get in a
day-to-day yeah scenario.
Um, I'll talk about.
one of those is we had thisreally, really organized and uh,
detail-oriented office managerworking for us yeah she was
(36:03):
exceptional and she was with usa long time and she patty being
when in that range that shetalked about, kind of balanced
in the middle.
What we call select is whereit's moderately your preference
or where it's called chosen,which is a very strong
preference.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
And I'm out here, chosen, on the changing the
slating.
I want to ideate, I want toinnovate, I don't want things to
be the same and I A to B, to X,to one.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
And where your hand was, there's a numerical not
just names for those areas butalso a numerical number.
And so she's a 16 changing leadOut of 16.
Which out of six is yeah, so ifour hand was that far on the
spectrum.
Next, our office manager was a16, evergreen herself.
(36:54):
So opposites, both reallyexceptional what they do.
But the way it plays outsometimes is, even with the best
of intentions, you know, wekind of get busy in day to day.
We can't stop, and sometimes,as a person working with someone
changing leaves, will give theamount of detail they want to
(37:14):
receive to the evergreen, um,thinking okay, I gave them
everything they needed.
But for someone who reallyneeds those details to be
productive and who builds aroundthose details, um, it could be
something that prohibits them orsomething that can frustrate
them.
And indeed there is a littlebit where Julie just struggled a
bit with some of that, and shedid not to any fault of her own.
(37:37):
She just wasn't getting thedetail and she didn't say
anything at first about it.
She's like trying to figure itout like a lot of people do in
their workplace.
So finally she came and talkedto Patty and said I'm struggling
a little bit to get what youneed.
And then they talked about itand it was really just simply
about she needed more detail andPatty was giving her changing
(37:59):
leaf language.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah, I was.
I was giving her more outcomes,like what we're going to do,
not how we're going to do it andchanging leaves and if you're
watching this and you haven'ttaken the tool, you probably
know which one you are changingleaves.
Um, we have a tendency to getfrustrated when someone needs
more data, because then should Ijust do it, right?
Um, but what she asked for waslegit.
(38:22):
If I gave her enough detail toget her started, she could
deliver the work in a way thatthat I needed, and then I would
not have to do.
But I also needed an adaptationfrom her.
Um, she was extremely detailoriented, so if she would send
me an email needing something,it might be in the 12th
(38:45):
paragraph, and I never get thatdeep into the detail, like I
skim it once I get past thefirst or second paragraph.
And so I asked her you know,can you put if you need an
action in the subject lineaction needed, and can you put
it in the first paragraph andhighlight it, because then I
could look for the detail Ineeded to give her what she
(39:07):
needed.
But I didn't miss it because Ididn't go into the detail, and
so that was an importantadaptation that she and I made
too.
We just loved working together.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
And it took a little time.
I mean, like with anything, oneof the things we tell people
frequently and we share withthem is sometimes you have to
just kind of go back a few timesand have a little fun with it,
Don't?
When someone's trying to makethe adaptation, it may take a
little bit of time At first.
(39:37):
What you provided Julie wasmore detail, but still not what
she needed enough, and one ofthe things you wrote was still
kind of high level even the wayyou wrote it.
But once you figured that, outyou got very, very, uh in tune
with exactly what she needed,but it's your willingness at
that time.
We tell everyone to keep goingback and trying and then
sometimes just simply to laughabout, yeah, differences we have
(39:58):
a six-step process forinfluence.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
The first step is, uh , figure out, spot that there's
a difference, like some peoplecome into the mix not expecting
there to be a difference, andand so you've got to.
You've got to spot thedifference and then you have to
figure out what that differenceis.
This tool gives you anopportunity to just look at
three different areas thatmatter a whole lot, and if you
(40:21):
see a difference there and adaptto that, that makes a huge
difference.
Um, the third is craft youradaptation.
And the fourth one is keeptrying, like we were doing.
The fifth one is let's talkabout it, develop a common
language, so that we're not justthrowing our hands up when we
(40:42):
get too much or not enoughdetail, but we're in fact saying
this is much better, but let'swork on it here or there, and we
can give each other thatfeedback.
And then, as Ken said, thesixth step is laugh a lot like
you gotta have fun with thisstuff.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
I spend a lot of time when it's a work related thing,
and if we're not, we're at home.
So if you're having a challengein either place, it can just be
something that feels likesometimes it's overwhelming it,
but really it's not and that'sthe great thing about that.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Well, and as we wrap up, if you have listened to this
and you are thinking aboutpeople in your personal life or
your work, you know your workcommunities or your civic
community groups and you havesome fun stories about these
differences, we'd love for youto share them with us on our
website, 4barspodcastcom.
(41:34):
And when I started this, I toldyou that this is only one of
three.
There are two others there's.
How do I process my ideas andthen how do I influence?
We're going to tackle those insubsequent podcasts so we don't
run for too long and lose yourinterest, but we'd love to get
more feedback from you all onthe types of things you'd like
(41:56):
for us to cover.
There is one thing I want to sayabout the interface methods
tool.
Ken mentioned the differencesand the continuum, mentioned the
differences and the continuum.
We try not to use the wordspectrum, because one of the
things that we look at is thesedifferences should not be seen
(42:19):
in a light that is hey,something's wrong with you, and
so the tool itself is not ameasure of ability.
So as such, it's not a hiringtool, but we do have a lot of
clients that use it to onboardtheir teams and they do see
better engagement.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Yes, they do Generally about, on average from
the measurements, about 60% to65% faster are they compared to
someone or an organization thatdoesn't do it?
And the reason they get that isbecause when someone comes on
board to an organization thatuses an onboarding tool, that
person who's part of theironboarding takes the interface
(42:57):
tool and once you take theinterface tool, then you
actually become part of.
You put in who your leader isand then you go on to a report
that shows everyone who reportsthat leader and their behavioral
styles.
Typically, when we are new inan environment could be work,
could be social, could bewhatever.
(43:18):
Where's a little bit of feelingout, developing language, trust
, that goes on.
But then one of the key thingsabout that is generally is I
need to know several thingsabout the person before I can
start to really have dialogue.
Start that's significant startto have trust with them, even if
my job is to onboard someone.
So what happens here is the newteam sees the behavioral
(43:44):
preferences so they know how toapproach and how to interact
with this person in the way thatthat person would prefer.
And that's the key to this.
Anyone can adapt.
Yeah, it's the willingness toadapt that really brings it to
life and make success.
And then the other side of thatis that the person who comes on
(44:05):
board they see everyone on thatreport so they can interact and
adapt to their methodologies,so it really is brings to life
much more quickly thatrelationship and that person can
feel better and more productivesooner when they go to a new
organization.
Yeah, so it's great onboardingtool, absolutely, I think.
The other thing for me, when Ithink about the utilizing tools
(44:30):
like this and interface methods,again it goes back to we
started earlier with the factthat how does it help companies
grow?
And it helps companies growbecause people can utilize these
tools internally, but we alsohave clients who utilize it very
strongly externally.
They listen to keys because youcan pick up on keys Is someone
(44:50):
talking more in detail or arethey talking about outcomes?
Yeah, then I can adapt mylanguage to them.
We have clients who utilizethis with customers that are
existing customers.
We have them that utilize itwhen they are prospecting and
asking questions and hearing theway they are and they may or
may not be exactly right, but byadapting towards where they
(45:10):
hear that that person isutilizing the language of what
it does is it allows them toconnect better.
Yeah, and if I connect better,I have a better chance to
influence, and I have a betterchance to influence, I have a
better chance to get the outcomethat I'm seeking yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
So it matters a lot, this difference in if I'm going
to sell to you, if I'm going toservice you with, you know, deal
with a challenge that you mighthave, or process something for
you as a vendor to you.
You know, the customer serviceaspect of this matters a lot
because we would like to receivea sales message and a customer
(45:48):
service solution in the level ofdetail we think it's needed for
a situation, not the level youthink it's needed, right, and so
that's a good takeaway as well,and we can get into a little
more of that in subsequentpodcasts.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
I will also say that youmentioned fourbarspodcastcom.
If you want more data, like yousaid, please just let us know.
Again, today's podcast camefrom input from viewers and we
want to hear from viewers whatyou would like to hear on topics
(46:27):
, potential future topics forguests that we would bring on
things of that nature.
Also, when you go to four bodspodcast, if you could subscribe
to our podcast, they get moreinformation from us there and we
are going to be installing intheir opportunity store.
We will be installing certainkinds of tools that listeners
who are subscribed can go in andthey can utilize those tools
(46:49):
for them, whether it's done inyour personal life or in your
professional life, and we'll letyou know when those are being
uploaded from segment to segment, episode to episode of that
nature.
Again, we want to thank you fortaking the time to be with us
again today and, as you headforward into the rest of your
week, uh, try some of these out.
(47:10):
If you want to have some fun,you go to a patty sometimes.
That's my uh idea of fun.
It really isn't all that fun,but go to a?
Um like a services place, alowe's home depot, listen to the
way that people ask questionsand interact with the folks who
work there.
Are they asking questions aboutdetails?
(47:30):
That person is more likelygoing to be an evergreen.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Or you could go to a bar and see how much detail you
can get out of the bartenderwhen you ask them questions.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
That's another way to do it.
That is another way to do itbut I probably won't ask them
any questions.
I ask a lot of questions.
But when it?
Speaker 2 (47:50):
comes to stories.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
Absolutely.
It's a good way to get peopleto share.
So again, thank you for beinghere and we look forward to our
next podcast.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
We look forward to our next podcast with you.
Have a great week.
The Four Bars Podcast has beenbrought to you by Edges Inc.
A growth advisory firm based inBentonville, arkansas.
I founded the company in 2001.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
Edges promotes growth of people, companies and ideas.
Our team collaboration tool,called Interface Methods, is a
basis for teams to work togethermore collaboratively,
understand each other and acceptdifferences and address
challenges together.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
We also started a nonprofit called Unform your
Bias.
We teach kids and their adultinfluencers how to utilize
storytelling as a means toreduce bias in the world.
We hope you'll check us out,subscribe to our podcast and
look at our website.
Welcome to the 4.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Bars podcast.
I'm Ken Leith and I'm PattiLeith.
We're your hosts for somecompelling dialogue, encouraging
our listeners to strengthentheir connections and build
strong communities, lifting eachother up and connecting in ways
that matter.
We named the podcast 4 Bars asa reference to how hard we work
to find a 4 Bars connection onour devices.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
And we wondered what could happen with relationships
if we worked as hard atconnecting.
Let's find out.
Welcome back to Four Bars.
I'm one of your hosts, Ken Lee.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
And I'm Patti Lee.
Welcome back.
It's good to see you again.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Indeed, you're going to notice that this week is
Patti and I together here and wehad some feedback and some
questions about informationabout four bars that some of our
viewers wanted to know a littlebit more about, and also how
did four bars?
And exploring good connectionsin life, business and community.
(00:53):
How's that connected to what wedo for a profession, for our
job?
And so today we're going totalk a little bit about that,
share some information aboutsome of the things we utilize,
just to give some background onthat.
I want to start talk a littlebit about that, share some
information about some of thethings we utilize, just to give
some background on that.
I want to start with a littlebit about our company, which is
called Edges, which Pallystarted back in 2001.
(01:15):
Could you give us a littlebackstory on that?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Yeah, so Edges stands for.
I'm big on acronyms, Ken is notas much, but he goes with it.
It stands for Everyday.
Growth Equals Success, and Istarted as a one-person shop
doing leadership, coaching andtraining, and we have evolved.
Ken joined me in 2006.
We have evolved into a growthadvisory firm where we work with
(01:39):
organizations to plan for theirgrowth and to develop their
communication and their teammembers in order to meet their
growth goals.
We have a lot of fun with it.
We've had some amazingexperiences in doing that.
Work pieces is this you knowthis concept of connecting
(02:05):
deeply with one another in waysthat help us work out our
challenges together, and sowe've done a lot of work in this
space.
That is specifically related toconnectivity and engagement and
that's kind of how it connects.
We have also done quite a bitof work in our coaching and
helping people explore theirconnections, not only at work
(02:27):
but also in their personal lives, in their families, friends,
community work, civic groups, etcetera.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Now that's a good way to explain that.
So, thank you Really, whatPatty said, our business really
is about helping otherbusinesses grow, and we do that
with several differentmethodologies and focuses for
those businesses that involvepeople from the C-suite down to
the folks in the front line,because that is the best way we
(02:58):
have found to really geteveryone engaged and everyone
moving in the same direction geteveryone engaged and everyone
moving in the same direction.
Some of the key pieces thatcome along with that are, yes,
understanding.
Do I have a good plan?
Do I have a roadmap for growththat I can share, that I can
(03:19):
measure, that I can adjust ifwe're not moving in the
direction we need to get to ormoving quick enough?
Also, of course, then what arethe processes that we have and
are they aligned?
Do people understand them fully?
Do they understand where thereare transitions, things of that
nature?
Two big pieces that I'll go to aslightly different area of the
business here that make all ofthis happen.
(03:40):
And people ask us frequently,when we go in to meet a new
potential client, what is itthat we do a little differently?
While we focus on those otherareas and we do also do
executive and leadershipcoaching.
We do focus on culture andcommunication a lot because to
make everything take off, tomake it really as productive as
(04:03):
can be and have peopleunderstand that they're in a
workplace where they understandtheir roles and they understand
how they're going to interactwith others and what those
engagements might look likeWithout them.
People don't necessarilygravitate towards that and then
there can be some stagnation,there can be some stalling.
(04:24):
One of the tools that we use,which was created and Patty will
give us a story here in just asecond on that is a tool called
Interface Methods, which is abehavioral tool, and we're going
to talk a little bit todayabout how that tool also helps
people and helps businesses growand how they intersect.
(04:45):
Could you talk a little bitabout the tool yeah, I will what
the name of the tool is andeverything.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yeah, I will.
I started working on the toolnot long after I started the
business and in fact, I hadreally thought through the
strategic plan for the businesseven before starting it
strategic plan for the businesseven before starting it.
But I, after doing someresearch, realized that a team's
(05:11):
inability to work together camedown to one prevalent thought,
which is you're not doing itright.
And I can sort of see ourseven-year-old granddaughter
saying that to the five-year-oldwhen I talk about it.
But as team members, we expectpeople to work like we do, and
(05:34):
that was keeping, and it doeskeep, but I realized it was
keeping people from reallycoming together and working
together.
So I started working on a toolthat helped us build a stronger
interface.
That's why we call it InterfaceMethods.
We were originally going tocall it Connect Me, and the team
that was working with me atthis time I know watches the
podcast.
(05:54):
You'll laugh about it,remembering that we opted away
from that because it soundedlike it was a dating site.
So we went with InterfaceMethods.
We wanted to put together abehavioral tool that identified
those differences and we foundthat there were three of them
and when you, when I explainthem, you'll think about not
only your work teams, but alsopeople in communities that you
(06:19):
interact in and people in yourfamily.
The three differences were howmuch detail do we want?
Some people want a lot.
They want to execute process.
They want to be very meticulousabout it.
Some people do not.
They want to think more aboutwhat we're going to do than how
we're going to do it and theywant to stay bigger picture.
When those are different, wejudge the other person's
(06:40):
capabilities.
Second item is how do we processour ideas and how do they go
from zero to 60?
Some of us like to do thatinternally and some of us like
to do that externally.
When it's different, we thinkthe other doesn't have enough
commitment to engage in the waythat we want them to, and we'll
(07:01):
share a little more as we getdeeper into this.
And then the last item is howdo we influence Behaviorally?
What language do we pick whenwe're trying to convince someone
to do something differently?
There are cautious influencerswho are more diplomatic and more
cautious in the way theypresent their message, and there
are direct influencers who aremore forthright and a little
(07:23):
more concise in the way theypresent their message.
These two languages cause ajudgment.
Not only do they cause ajudgment, they cause a
disconnect that keeps us fromgetting our message across, so
super important in anyconnection that we have, whether
it's being married, interactingwith our kids, or people in our
(07:44):
workplace.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
No, it's very true.
It interacts and connects intoall areas of where we live and
as far as all humans, um, likeany great thing or good thing
that is utilized out there,because it doesn't necessarily
get done in a vacuum, and youand your team at the time also
had some assistance from theoutside.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
We did.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Can you talk a little bit about the origin of that
and how that intersected andhelped?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, we did.
We had a client and they arestill a client.
They've been a fantasticbusiness partner for us over the
last 24 years.
And one of their people cameand asked me if I knew of a tool
that was behavioral in naturerather than psychological, and
easier to remember than theMyers-Briggs and a little more
(08:33):
team focused than some of theothers that were out on the
market, like the DISC or theBerkman.
And I said to him you know, I'mworking on one and my
background is in industrialorganizational psychology.
And he laughed.
But he's like you're serious,aren't you?
And I said I am.
And he asked me to tell himabout it.
And I was originally working onthis tool to present at a
(08:56):
mentoring conference for womenwomen in networking conference
and I was designing it toconnect people who were
different so that they couldhelp each other value those
differences.
Yeah, and so I explained allthat to him and and it was
February and he said, um, whatwould it take for us to have it
(09:20):
ready by March?
Uh, by May?
And I said, well, um, I'd needa steering committee that can
meet with me several timesduring that time.
And he asked if he could get adiscount on it for a period of
years, so I gave him a five-yeardiscount.
They're still using it and Iholed up in a coffee shop for
(09:44):
two days and finished the tooland develop the spreadsheet to
generate the feedback.
So that's how it came to be andit has gone through 20
iterations since it was in anExcel spreadsheet.
Now it's online.
Now we have a learning hub.
So lots of fun doing it and afantastic business partner.
The management committee thatworked with my steering
(10:05):
committee consisted of eightmanagers at different levels in
that organization to really helpus get it on point for the
behavioral feedback that teammembers needed in order to not
judge each other and tointentionally adapt for a better
outcome.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Very good.
Thank you, yeah, because itreally brings the richness to.
How do things actually becomewhat they are, so to speak?
And one of the things thatoften people ask us is how does
this behavioral instrumentactually help a business grow?
Okay, because people ask whatis it?
(10:44):
And it's a behavioral tool thatcan help people and one of the
differences, for example, isthat the behavioral tool and
it's is something that, becauseit's behavioral, we can adapt,
we can adjust as, once weunderstand how to utilize it and
the impact of it, how toidentify certain key things
within interactions with othersAgain, good connections and
(11:07):
business and community and lifeand so, with the other
difference there or thatdifference there lies in
psychological assessments andtools.
Really, we don't change ourwiring very easily and you can
speak to this here also in asecond While we can't adapt
behaviorally.
So that's one of the uniquedifferences, why this is a tool
(11:29):
that can really help peopleinteract in a day-to-day basis
in their offices, with theirclients, within their vendor
partners and things like that.
The tool is very effective forthat and we'll give some
examples today as we talk howthat plays out a little bit.
What does that look like?
(11:50):
What do those interactionsentail?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, so personality tools are a little more
ingrained.
When I take a personalityinstrument, whether it's as a
coaching or to queue up a teambuilding, we learn a lot about
ourselves and each other, butwe're not necessarily
identifying characteristics thatwe can adapt or change.
They're sort of inherent in ournature, and so the behavioral
(12:14):
tool is identifyingcharacteristics that can change
if we want them to.
But in order for that to tooccur, we have to recognize the
difference, not as somethingthat is, oh, you're not doing it
right, but something that isreally like, oh, you're coming
at this from a different angle.
I bet between us we can make abetter, whatever right so yeah,
(12:38):
no, that's very good.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Um, because do people do?
They may not let out that sound, but they have a face.
It's on the inside.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
It's on the inside.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
And probably for everyone who is watching today.
It is something that you'veexperienced in your personal
life, in your business life.
As Patty said, this engagementactually works in every phase of
life.
Yes, with children over acertain age of about 13.
13, yeah, and also with spousesand family members Again, just
(13:14):
with friends.
Even we have utilized this, forexample, with married couples.
We've utilized this tool.
I will say it all went well.
There was no bloodshed,everyone took something out of
it and there was a lot of fun.
A fun example is one couple ofthis and talking about some of
(13:36):
the differences.
One of the members was very,very detail-oriented with
respect to that and organized,organizes things very, very well
.
Most of us would love to aspireto that, but in their situation
, she will do things such asensure that everything's aligned
(13:58):
in the pantry a certain way andthat, um, whereas most people
just put it in there andprobably put it in certain areas
close by, but align every label.
Just do these things that areimportant to her, and it keeps
her life moving forward withrespect to as all of us have
something in our lives that wedo, um.
Another thing is how we stack adishwasher, um, and you knew
(14:20):
that there could be discussionsabout dishwashers and we'll talk
about dishwashing a bit.
But her husband is different,dramatically different.
He appreciates the fact thatshe stacks the cans and does all
that, but that's not his thing,so he's not always putting them
back.
That can lead to someconversations that you have
(14:40):
there about that and stackingthe dishwasher.
I will say conversation is veryinteresting.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
I would love to have you delve a little bit into that
and I will add to yeah, so thisgets at that difference of
detail and structure that wewant, where some people are very
detailed and very structured,they want process, steps, they
want to be able to implement andto maintain what they've put in
place.
(15:08):
Um, and, and this particularcouple, she is that person stack
.
I mean, we used to mess withher at christmas uh parties
where we would go in and justturn the labels in her pantry
slightly so that it would justirritate her and we'd all laugh
about it.
But she was very, very strongin the structure and her husband
(15:30):
is less structured and so whenit comes down to stacking the
dishwasher, the more structuredin a couple almost always wants
to restack behind the lessstructured because it is not
meeting the structuralguidelines.
So we were at a we wereactually at my son's graduation
(15:57):
when he texted her a picture ofthe dishwasher as a joke to say,
hey, can I start this, becauseshe's always resecting it behind
him.
And this came out at ourcouples workshop.
So anyway, it's a funny umdifference that many of us have
and we are often attracted topeople who process very
differently from us because it'scool, you complete me and then,
(16:18):
and then you don't, then you'rejust doing it wrong just for
clarity.
We're not referring to me we'renot scenario, just want to make
sure.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Yeah, we're similar in that scenario although you
are more structured than I am, Iam the person that does some
restacking the dishwasheroccasionally.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Yes, and I'm like well, why did I do it in the
first place?
Speaker 1 (16:37):
And I can understand that feeling also.
I've come to learn that.
But again it's something thatwhen we know these differences,
they become more benign.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
But again it's something that when we know
these differences, they becomemore benign and they don't
become things that create stressor friction, because we just
understand they are justdifferent ways of doing it.
Good connections is thewillingness to show up as you're
comfortable showing up, butthen read the room to see where
you might need to adapt in orderto make that connection
(17:13):
stronger, in order to be able tocommunicate in a way that has
greater influence, in order tobe able to support a person in
the way that they need to besupported.
That's what builds strongrelationships, it's what builds
strong community and strongbusinesses yeah.
Back in 2012,.
I published a book and thedishwasher segment is in there
(17:34):
called Judge, not A Guide toInfluence People who Think
Differently.
Yes, and it really is aboutthese differences.
You don't have to take the toolto look for them, to recognize
them and to go ooh, you have alot more detail than me, so I
need to present this with thelevel of detail that you need.
Or the opposite is true oh, youare not thinking about the
(17:55):
detail, so I don't need to showit to you.
I need to talk in terms ofoutcomes, and our natural
tendency is to think oh, you'renot, you're not thinking about
the detail here.
You should let me give it toyou.
And that's not what works whenwe're interacting with people
who just want a different levelof structure in their work.
Absolutely, and the reality ofit is in that difference, this
(18:18):
level of detail, the level ofstructure.
The people who are verystructured are extremely good at
process and implementation andtaking the actions that are
necessary to meet the goals, andthe people who prefer to be big
picture, more visionary, morewhole to parts, are talking in
(18:41):
terms of outcomes and goals.
Both are needed in anythingthat you do.
Actions have to lead to goals,and one of the biggest
challenges in a company that'sgrowing is I'm doing a lot of
work and it's not getting me thegoals that I want, and so you
have to connect those, and ittakes people from both
(19:01):
preferences to come together tomake the work as robust as
possible.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yes, and we are diving in a bit now more into
the interface methods tool andtalking about that, could you
also share the names of thedifferent pieces?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yeah, I can.
And so the individual whoprefers structure, process,
parts to whole is called anevergreen.
And so, if you think about theevergreen, they are consistent
and stable and they don't changea whole lot.
The person who prefers thestrategy, the vision, the bigger
picture and the outcomes theylook at things from whole to
(19:40):
parts.
They're called a changing leafbecause they are ever changing,
they are dynamically looking atthings, they are thinking in a
circular fashion rather than alinear fashion and so those
differences and there's acontinuum.
You can be sort of balanced, youcan be moderate, you can be
really strong.
(20:00):
I'm really strong on thechanging leaf side, but it is
not ability.
So as a strong changing leaf,I've always been really good at
math.
I can balance the books and Ido for our company balance the
books and be very meticulous inthe way that I do that.
(20:20):
I don't make mistakes when I doit, but when I am done, it has
used an enormous amount ofenergy in my psyche.
Um, because that adaptationdoes take energy.
What I want to do when I'm donedoing the books outside of
drink a good glass of wine is,um, I want to, I want to design
something, because that's whatgives me energy in the changing
(20:42):
leaf side of me right, very good.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
And just to point to, not everyone kind of looks the
same, you know, when it comes tosays, oh, this person is more
structured, this person is lessstructured, need more detail
versus less detail.
For example, one of our clientsthey had done, they had grown
and so they built anotherfacility and they moved offices.
(21:08):
Of course, they had movers comein and move the offices.
The CFO of this organizationyou may remember this and he was
very good at what he does, butwe think people who have more
structure versus not having morestructure.
They would have a look like yousaid everything filed, maybe
(21:30):
put in a certain way, labeled acertain way.
He happened to be someone whodid not need all the structure
as a CFO, but he could stilllocate things and I'll give you
an example he would have a stackof files on his desk that he
just seemed to keep and theywould be this size sometimes, um
, but I could.
(21:51):
Also he's going to his officeand was never surprised when he
said I want to show yousomething that we're talking
about and he would look at thispile and just reach into a
folder area and be able to pullout.
Yeah, and he needed, withouthaving any labeling to it or
anything.
I'll fast forward to it, saythat when they did move his
stuff over, they went ahead andfiled everything.
(22:13):
It put him in disarray forabout six months before he
really got comfortable again andstuff.
So these things do happen, butwe don't all look the same in
how we make all this work for us.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah, and in that particular scenario you may
remember that he was a changinglead, yes, and we were surprised
, because we do oftenstereotypically expect something
from a certain role.
Because he was a CFO.
We thought, oh, structure,right.
Yes, and this was early in theuse of the tool.
And what we've come to find outis it really doesn't matter
(22:47):
what your role is.
You can be in either workpreference.
It's just a matter of makingyour work preference work for
the expectations of your role.
And he had done that.
And if you are one of theseless structured people like I am
, you can.
I've got files and I knowexactly where they are.
Ken was asking me the other dayhe's like I'll go downstairs
(23:10):
and get it for you.
Where is it?
And I said, oh, it's in a fileabout this far, about this far
down.
And we both laughed like that'ssort of I know where it is, but
it doesn't look.
It doesn't look structured tothe outside eye.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yeah, it doesn't yeah , but it's a methodology that
works for that person, so tospeak.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Now, on this one, you're more balanced.
You want to talk a little bitabout that?
Yeah, I am You're what we calla connector.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah, so between the changing leaf and the evergreen,
my score was pretty much in themiddle, what we call the middle
set quadrant there.
That area there allows if youthink of it, it's almost like
being bilingual being able tospeak easily move back and forth
between two languages.
In this case, it's easily beingable to move back and forth
(23:58):
between adapting to someoneelse's style.
Yeah, someone who's lessstructured and someone who's
more structured.
I am a changing leaf, as Pattysaid, but I'm balanced.
Someone who's more structured.
I am a changing leaf, as Pattysaid, but I'm balanced.
With that, I always triedespecially in my corporate world
where I worked on beforejoining Edges, I was always
(24:20):
looking to ensure that I triedto make the best decision and
look at all the points of dataand I would sometimes be looking
at something that was more of adetailed kind of solution and
sometimes it was more of I wasgiving information that was more
big picture and not giving allthe detail.
(24:42):
I asked her to come out andwork with my company and work
with my leadership team in orderto be able to take them through
an executive coaching program.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
And the important thing here is, we still got
married.
Yes, just saying.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
I had people at my old job who said that wasn't
going to happen once you had mypsychological wiring.
But what I found out throughthe coaching process that Patty
took them through was, insteadof helping them by giving them
best information, I was actuallynot empowering them.
And I got feedback from them inthese one-on-one meetings that
(25:30):
I would have with them as partof the coaching, which was very
helpful for me, because what itallowed me to do was then to
realize why I thought I wasdoing stuff with good intention.
I was really impeding theirgrowth.
This is what I found that Ineeded to do was to be able to
if I'm going to make decisionsbased upon needing sometimes in
my mind, needing to have moredata, sometimes being a big
picture, to look into theoutcomes.
I needed to share with them mythought process and be able to
(25:52):
really let them understand whysometimes I chose one, why
sometimes I chose the otherinstead of being more consistent
, because being consistent isvery good for people often, um,
but what I did was I took aboutthree months and for any time I
was involved with working withthem on a decision, I had to be
very intentional aboutexplaining the why.
(26:14):
Why was it that I chose thismore details over here versus
maybe something that was alarger, more systemic solution
over here and it really what Isaw was incredible.
It was a wonderful experiencefor me I think for them too is I
actually saw them becomeempowered the way I wanted them
to and they got very confidentin being able to make the same
(26:36):
decisions and they we're not ourdecisions don't have to always
be the same way anyway, theyjust need to have a good outcome
.
But they were able to beconfident in their choice of the
decisions and they could alwayscome and ask me about it.
But I saw them grow as a resultof that and for me that was
very rewarding, because now Iwas kind of living what I wanted
(26:59):
to do originally with them butwasn't doing for them.
So, yeah, that's a littlebackground on that one.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, that's interesting, you know, and I
think this difference is verysignificant when teams are
working together, because we tryhard to really read the other
person and then respondaccordingly to what we see.
But we have a very strongpenchant for the level of detail
(27:26):
we think is necessary to workthrough a problem, which is what
leads to this.
You know, oh, you're not doingit right.
You know you need too muchdetail.
Stop, you're killing my ideas.
Or, on the other side of that,you're not thinking about the
detail is, or on the other sideof that, you're not thinking
about the detail.
One of the things that I havenoticed with you being balanced.
You are very good at what wecall connecting.
(27:46):
You're very good at taking theidea and really thinking about
the parts that will lead to itand then also identifying parts
of our processes that may not beleading to our goals.
But I have noticed too thatwhen I'm really big picture you,
you can go there with me, butyou, you'll have a tendency to
(28:08):
try to fill in the detailsbecause I'm not thinking about
it Right.
And so we do sort of try toadapt and help each other think
through the things that don'tcome quite as naturally, but
when I'm prompted to go deeperinto the details, I can yes.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
I just it takes a lot of brain power and you can
almost smell it burning in there.
It energizes teams.
We see that on a regular basisonce they understand these
differences and that thesedifferences and the that these
differences actually arepowerful.
These differences are thingsthat can enable them to achieve
more together.
And we see it and we utilize it.
(28:53):
For example, we utilize this uhtool when we start an
engagement with a team fordividing their roadmap and
helping them kind of set off andmake sure that they can execute
that roadmap.
Um, we do it when we talk,start talking about processes,
because it's so important tounderstand sometimes who's in
the room and what.
(29:14):
What are their preferences inthese areas, these key
behavioral areas that you wantto make sure sometimes you have
a good balance.
If you have everyone who's bigpicture, you're going to be very
innovative and people are goingto have these really great
ideas.
But what you may lack is theability to turn those ideas and
(29:35):
concept into execution.
It's something that isdeliverable.
So you might find that yourefficiencies go down.
You may find that you're notgoing to market with as many
things.
You're getting conceptual ideasbut you're not really building
them all the way out.
And, conversely, if you havefolks who are predominantly
(29:56):
those folks who are moredetail-oriented, more evergreens
in the room that are working onit, they're going to make sure
it's going to be functional thatit's connecting the dyes.
Those folks who are moredetail-oriented, more evergreens
in the room that are working onit, they're going to make sure
it's going to be functional thatit's connecting the dots A to B
, c.
But typically, what you're notgoing to you might be missing
not necessarily would be, butyou might be missing is that
innovation side that reallypushes it.
(30:17):
So you might find yourselfsliding a little bit with
respect to your competition,staying up with them.
So that's where these thingscome in.
They become bigger issues fororganizations.
Whether you're small or large,they have impact and I know
personal lives.
Let's go ahead.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Well, I was just going to also make, while we're
talking about this detailstructure thing, we have a
tendency to connect more withpeople who want the same level
of detail that we do.
I've even noticed in classeswhere somebody who is an
evergreen is speaking and theevergreens are leaning in to
(30:54):
listen, right, because they'regetting what they need, and the
changing leaves are sitting backlike, oh, it's too much detail
for me, um, and vice versa,right, um, and so one of the
things that that that we've seenin in our work is that there's
a tendency to want to hirepeople more like you and and
(31:16):
that will really impact the workthe team can get done and slant
it more one way or another,when really all ideas need good
execution strategies and allactivities should be leading to
goals and outcomes.
And with only one or two peoplewho prefer detail, the ideas
(31:39):
don't get airborne, and viceversa, with only one or two
people who prefer the ideas,they don't get a lot of
creativity and innovation.
So these are things to thinkabout as you're thinking about
staffing your team.
We often are more comfortablewith somebody that gets us, and
(32:02):
then that's sort of whether werealize it or not, that sort of
comes across in the interviewand the next thing you know your
team is not as balanced asmight benefit the work that your
team does together.
Yeah just a food for thought.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
That is very, very good and something that is
something to keep top of mindtoo.
Again, we've seen some funinteractions over the years,
yeah, so would you tell us aboutone or two?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, I think one of the most substantial was an
organization that was growingpretty rapidly and their CEO was
a changing leaf and their COOwas an evergreen and initially
the difference was substantialenough to sort of drive them a
bit nuts.
(32:52):
But they began quickly torealize together they make a
whole person or together theycan build a really great
strategic plan from the top tothe bottom.
And they got to where theywould really sort of talk about
this in, you know, in staffmeetings like hey, can you ever
(33:14):
green?
That for me?
And and the recognition thatYou're different, you bring
details to the table and andlet's call each other to work
together, was a lot of fun tosee.
And then he would say to her Imay not be coming up with enough
(33:34):
ideas, let's spitball this andlet's spend a little time in
creative land, and so those werekind of fun.
But at the end of the day theyworked together for many years
and they'll both still tell youit was a.
It was a difference that servedthem and their companies
amazingly well.
(33:56):
We also see this differenceoften in married couples, as we
mentioned with the story at thebeginning and the dishwasher
story.
Yes, but you think about amarried couple or a partner, uh,
your significant other?
You don't have to be married,your significant other?
Um, if there's a differencehere, one of you wants to show
(34:17):
up on vacation in a place, findthe location you're staying on
the way and figure out youractivities Once you get there.
I'm not person in ourrelationship.
I've been known to book anAirbnb on the way to the
destination, but what I findoften is there's some really
(34:39):
cool things that if I had doneit a little more planfully, I
would be able to partake inbecause, like all the
snowmobiles are booked or youknow whatever, whereas on the
evergreen side, that vacation isgenerally planned in a
spreadsheet.
And you know we had and myfriends all tease me because I'm
(35:00):
usually the show up and lookgirl but we did have a big
birthday planned for you in 2020.
And I planned a trip for 14people to go to Napa and it was
on a spreadsheet and my friendswere all like how is she doing
this?
But I had all the details.
We ended up not taking the tripbecause it was in May of 2020.
(35:20):
Yes, and the pandemic createdthe trip.
That never was, but that'ssomething else that can be fun
if you let it be.
It can also be super annoyingif you want to plan everything
and I don't, or I want to planeverything and you don't, right,
and so yeah, yeah and again.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Patty created this and we are practitioners, we
utilize this with clients allthe time, but we have some of
the same challenges sometimesand we could we just get in a
day-to-day yeah scenario.
Um, I'll talk about.
one of those is we had thisreally, really organized and uh,
detail-oriented office managerworking for us yeah she was
(36:03):
exceptional and she was with usa long time and she patty being
when in that range that shetalked about, kind of balanced
in the middle.
What we call select is whereit's moderately your preference
or where it's called chosen,which is a very strong
preference.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
And I'm out here, chosen, on the changing the
slating.
I want to ideate, I want toinnovate, I don't want things to
be the same and I A to B, to X,to one.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
And where your hand was, there's a numerical not
just names for those areas butalso a numerical number.
And so she's a 16 changing leadOut of 16.
Which out of six is yeah, so ifour hand was that far on the
spectrum.
Next, our office manager was a16, evergreen herself.
(36:54):
So opposites, both reallyexceptional what they do.
But the way it plays outsometimes is, even with the best
of intentions, you know, wekind of get busy in day to day.
We can't stop, and sometimes,as a person working with someone
changing leaves, will give theamount of detail they want to
(37:14):
receive to the evergreen, um,thinking okay, I gave them
everything they needed.
But for someone who reallyneeds those details to be
productive and who builds aroundthose details, um, it could be
something that prohibits them orsomething that can frustrate
them.
And indeed there is a littlebit where Julie just struggled a
bit with some of that, and shedid not to any fault of her own.
(37:37):
She just wasn't getting thedetail and she didn't say
anything at first about it.
She's like trying to figure itout like a lot of people do in
their workplace.
So finally she came and talkedto Patty and said I'm struggling
a little bit to get what youneed.
And then they talked about itand it was really just simply
about she needed more detail andPatty was giving her changing
(37:59):
leaf language.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah, I was.
I was giving her more outcomes,like what we're going to do,
not how we're going to do it andchanging leaves and if you're
watching this and you haven'ttaken the tool, you probably
know which one you are changingleaves.
Um, we have a tendency to getfrustrated when someone needs
more data, because then should Ijust do it, right?
Um, but what she asked for waslegit.
(38:22):
If I gave her enough detail toget her started, she could
deliver the work in a way thatthat I needed, and then I would
not have to do.
But I also needed an adaptationfrom her.
Um, she was extremely detailoriented, so if she would send
me an email needing something,it might be in the 12th
(38:45):
paragraph, and I never get thatdeep into the detail, like I
skim it once I get past thefirst or second paragraph.
And so I asked her you know,can you put if you need an
action in the subject lineaction needed, and can you put
it in the first paragraph andhighlight it, because then I
could look for the detail Ineeded to give her what she
(39:07):
needed.
But I didn't miss it because Ididn't go into the detail, and
so that was an importantadaptation that she and I made
too.
We just loved working together.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
And it took a little time.
I mean, like with anything, oneof the things we tell people
frequently and we share withthem is sometimes you have to
just kind of go back a few timesand have a little fun with it,
Don't?
When someone's trying to makethe adaptation, it may take a
little bit of time At first.
(39:37):
What you provided Julie wasmore detail, but still not what
she needed enough, and one ofthe things you wrote was still
kind of high level even the wayyou wrote it.
But once you figured that, outyou got very, very, uh in tune
with exactly what she needed,but it's your willingness at
that time.
We tell everyone to keep goingback and trying and then
sometimes just simply to laughabout, yeah, differences we have
(39:58):
a six-step process forinfluence.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
The first step is, uh , figure out, spot that there's
a difference, like some peoplecome into the mix not expecting
there to be a difference, andand so you've got to.
You've got to spot thedifference and then you have to
figure out what that differenceis.
This tool gives you anopportunity to just look at
three different areas thatmatter a whole lot, and if you
(40:21):
see a difference there and adaptto that, that makes a huge
difference.
Um, the third is craft youradaptation.
And the fourth one is keeptrying, like we were doing.
The fifth one is let's talkabout it, develop a common
language, so that we're not justthrowing our hands up when we
(40:42):
get too much or not enoughdetail, but we're in fact saying
this is much better, but let'swork on it here or there, and we
can give each other thatfeedback.
And then, as Ken said, thesixth step is laugh a lot like
you gotta have fun with thisstuff.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
I spend a lot of time when it's a work related thing,
and if we're not, we're at home.
So if you're having a challengein either place, it can just be
something that feels likesometimes it's overwhelming it,
but really it's not and that'sthe great thing about that.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Well, and as we wrap up, if you have listened to this
and you are thinking aboutpeople in your personal life or
your work, you know your workcommunities or your civic
community groups and you havesome fun stories about these
differences, we'd love for youto share them with us on our
website, 4barspodcastcom.
(41:34):
And when I started this, I toldyou that this is only one of
three.
There are two others there's.
How do I process my ideas andthen how do I influence?
We're going to tackle those insubsequent podcasts so we don't
run for too long and lose yourinterest, but we'd love to get
more feedback from you all onthe types of things you'd like
(41:56):
for us to cover.
There is one thing I want to sayabout the interface methods
tool.
Ken mentioned the differencesand the continuum, mentioned the
differences and the continuum.
We try not to use the wordspectrum, because one of the
things that we look at is thesedifferences should not be seen
(42:19):
in a light that is hey,something's wrong with you, and
so the tool itself is not ameasure of ability.
So as such, it's not a hiringtool, but we do have a lot of
clients that use it to onboardtheir teams and they do see
better engagement.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Yes, they do Generally about, on average from
the measurements, about 60% to65% faster are they compared to
someone or an organization thatdoesn't do it?
And the reason they get that isbecause when someone comes on
board to an organization thatuses an onboarding tool, that
person who's part of theironboarding takes the interface
(42:57):
tool and once you take theinterface tool, then you
actually become part of.
You put in who your leader isand then you go on to a report
that shows everyone who reportsthat leader and their behavioral
styles.
Typically, when we are new inan environment could be work,
could be social, could bewhatever.
(43:18):
Where's a little bit of feelingout, developing language, trust
, that goes on.
But then one of the key thingsabout that is generally is I
need to know several thingsabout the person before I can
start to really have dialogue.
Start that's significant startto have trust with them, even if
my job is to onboard someone.
So what happens here is the newteam sees the behavioral
(43:44):
preferences so they know how toapproach and how to interact
with this person in the way thatthat person would prefer.
And that's the key to this.
Anyone can adapt.
Yeah, it's the willingness toadapt that really brings it to
life and make success.
And then the other side of thatis that the person who comes on
(44:05):
board they see everyone on thatreport so they can interact and
adapt to their methodologies,so it really is brings to life
much more quickly thatrelationship and that person can
feel better and more productivesooner when they go to a new
organization.
Yeah, so it's great onboardingtool, absolutely, I think.
The other thing for me, when Ithink about the utilizing tools
(44:30):
like this and interface methods,again it goes back to we
started earlier with the factthat how does it help companies
grow?
And it helps companies growbecause people can utilize these
tools internally, but we alsohave clients who utilize it very
strongly externally.
They listen to keys because youcan pick up on keys Is someone
(44:50):
talking more in detail or arethey talking about outcomes?
Yeah, then I can adapt mylanguage to them.
We have clients who utilizethis with customers that are
existing customers.
We have them that utilize itwhen they are prospecting and
asking questions and hearing theway they are and they may or
may not be exactly right, but byadapting towards where they
(45:10):
hear that that person isutilizing the language of what
it does is it allows them toconnect better.
Yeah, and if I connect better,I have a better chance to
influence, and I have a betterchance to influence, I have a
better chance to get the outcomethat I'm seeking yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
So it matters a lot, this difference in if I'm going
to sell to you, if I'm going toservice you with, you know, deal
with a challenge that you mighthave, or process something for
you as a vendor to you.
You know, the customer serviceaspect of this matters a lot
because we would like to receivea sales message and a customer
(45:48):
service solution in the level ofdetail we think it's needed for
a situation, not the level youthink it's needed, right, and so
that's a good takeaway as well,and we can get into a little
more of that in subsequentpodcasts.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
I will also say that youmentioned fourbarspodcastcom.
If you want more data, like yousaid, please just let us know.
Again, today's podcast camefrom input from viewers and we
want to hear from viewers whatyou would like to hear on topics
(46:27):
, potential future topics forguests that we would bring on
things of that nature.
Also, when you go to four bodspodcast, if you could subscribe
to our podcast, they get moreinformation from us there and we
are going to be installing intheir opportunity store.
We will be installing certainkinds of tools that listeners
who are subscribed can go in andthey can utilize those tools
(46:49):
for them, whether it's done inyour personal life or in your
professional life, and we'll letyou know when those are being
uploaded from segment to segment, episode to episode of that
nature.
Again, we want to thank you fortaking the time to be with us
again today and, as you headforward into the rest of your
week, uh, try some of these out.
(47:10):
If you want to have some fun,you go to a patty sometimes.
That's my uh idea of fun.
It really isn't all that fun,but go to a?
Um like a services place, alowe's home depot, listen to the
way that people ask questionsand interact with the folks who
work there.
Are they asking questions aboutdetails?
(47:30):
That person is more likelygoing to be an evergreen.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Or you could go to a bar and see how much detail you
can get out of the bartenderwhen you ask them questions.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
That's another way to do it.
That is another way to do itbut I probably won't ask them
any questions.
I ask a lot of questions.
But when it?
Speaker 2 (47:50):
comes to stories.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
Absolutely.
It's a good way to get peopleto share.
So again, thank you for beinghere and we look forward to our
next podcast.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
We look forward to our next podcast with you.
Have a great week.
The Four Bars Podcast has beenbrought to you by Edges Inc.
A growth advisory firm based inBentonville, arkansas.
I founded the company in 2001.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
Edges promotes growth of people, companies and ideas.
Our team collaboration tool,called Interface Methods, is a
basis for teams to work togethermore collaboratively,
understand each other and acceptdifferences and address
challenges together.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
We also started a nonprofit called Unform your
Bias.
We teach kids and their adultinfluencers how to utilize
storytelling as a means toreduce bias in the world.
We hope you'll check us out,subscribe to our podcast and
look at our website.
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