May 15, 2025 • 50 mins
From a mud-stuck vehicle in the Democratic Republic of Congo to the halls of George Mason University, Dr. Charles Davidson's journey in peace-building offers profound insights into human connection across seemingly insurmountable divides. As both Director of Research and Practice at the Center for Applied Peace Strategies and President of Innovations in Peacebuilding, Davidson brings decades of on-the-ground experience working directly with former child soldiers and armed groups in some of the world's most dangerous conflict zones.
Davidson's approach to peacebuilding turns conventional wisdom on its head. Rather than operating from fortified compounds or implementing preconceived solutions, he advocates for deep listening, local ownership, and economic opportunity as pathways to sustainable peace. His work demonstrates that whether you're negotiating with armed groups in Africa or managing office conflicts in America, the fundamental principles remain the same: recognize our shared humanity, listen before formulating solutions, and understand the legitimate needs driving seemingly destructive behaviors.
One story particularly illuminates Davidson's impact – a young Congolese woman rescued from forced marriage in an armed group who, with just two pregnant goats as startup capital, built a thriving business and opened a sewing school for other vulnerable women. She even became the organization's first African donor, gifting two goats to another survivor. This powerful transformation underscores Davidson's belief that providing economic alternatives and respect-building opportunities creates sustainable peace dividends far more effectively than traditional intervention methods.
Davidson challenges us all to be peacebuilders in our everyday lives, emphasizing that personal transformation precedes societal change. By examining our own biases, practicing deep listening, and seeking to understand the legitimate needs driving others' actions, we can contribute to peace regardless of our profession. Whether you're fascinated by international relations, conflict resolution in your workplace, or personal growth, this conversation offers practical wisdom for building stronger connections across our increasingly divided world. Follow Dr. Davidson's work, get involved, or simply apply his insights to your daily interactions—peace building begins with each of us.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All of a sudden, somebody yelled something in the
local dialect and the driverstomped on the gas and the truck
popped out of the mud and wewere on our way.
Wow, and it was in that momentthat I almost felt ashamed.
I'm like, why was I so afraid?
What did I think was going tohappen, and why did I think that
these people would do anythingother than help me?
And that is another big pointin my life where it's like it
(00:24):
occurred to me that no matterwhere you go in the world, no
matter how far away quoteunquote someplace feels you will
never not be around humanbeings.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Welcome to the Four Bars podcast.
I'm Ken Leith.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
And I'm Patti Leith.
We are your host for somecompelling dialogue, encouraging
our listeners to strengthentheir connections and build
strong communities lifting eachother up and connecting in ways
that matter.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
We named the podcast Four Bars as a reference to how
hard we work to find a Four Barsconnection on our devices and
we wondered what could happenwith relationships if we worked
as hard at connecting.
Let's find out.
Welcome back to Four Barspodcast.
I'm one of your hosts, kenLeith.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
And I'm Patti Leith.
Welcome back.
We're excited to have you andexcited about our guest.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Yes, this episode we have, dr Charles Davidson.
Charles, we've known for quitea while now and Charles is
actually visiting here in town,so appreciate that.
Give you a little information,charles.
I'm going to read a little bithere.
Charles is a director ofresearch and practice at the
Center for Applied PeaceStrategies at George Mason
University.
Additionally, charles ispresident of Innovation and
(01:27):
Peace Building, that's right.
Can you tell us a little bitabout those and about your roles
?
Sure?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yes, yeah, fascinating career that you have
.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I appreciate that.
Yeah Well, it's good to see youguys.
I think the first time I've metyou in person, right?
I've known you for like fouryears, but it's the first time
I've met you in person.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I've known you for like four years, but it's the
first time.
Today we started in yourpolitical leadership academy
there at.
Jmu and it was all remotebecause it was during the
pandemic.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
I think you were part of the very first
co-coordinator.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yeah, it's good to be here.
Yeah, I mean, frankly, I've gotmy dream job.
It's something that I've workedtoward my entire adult life as
the director for research andpractice at the Center for
Applied Peace Strategies atGeorge Mason.
We are we're breaking newground in starting a university
(02:17):
excuse me, university levelcenter that is working to
integrate all of the talents andabilities that the university,
that George Mason University hasin engineering and business and
education and art andtechnology and law, trying to
pull together talents fromacross those fields to think
really scalably, sustainably,strategically about peace
(02:40):
building issues that haveplagued places for a long time
and, additionally, innovationsin Peace.
Building is actually anorganization that I started here
at Northwest Arkansas back in2009, which has been going ever
since, and we, you know,obviously we innovate
peacebuilding strategies withthat, too, very much on the
ground.
We lead a global team invarious strategic places around
(03:03):
the world and have done so for along time.
But those two institutions aretwo separate institutions that I
run in my time.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Fantastic, fantastic.
You just came back from a trade.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
I did.
Yeah, I just got back fromBurundi, which is kind of in the
heart of the Great Lakes regionof Africa and East Africa.
It's a fantastic place.
I kind of call Burundi like myAfrican home.
I've got a godson there becauseI've worked there for so long.
Yeah, it's really central to alot of the programming we do in
South Sudan, the DemocraticRepublic of the Congo and
(03:38):
Burundi itself.
So it's a great place that Istay and then people we come, we
meet our teams from all overthat region to strategize there.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
That's meaningful work and it sounds like it's
very rewarding, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
I mean, it's hard work.
I think the things you see onInstagram are sort of the
glamorous shots that we get totake when stuff goes well, but
the vast majority of leadership,as you know, is the crap rolls
uphill.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
So I'm always like blocking for other people to be
able to do their work, and youknow, when I was a young guy on
the ground getting to do thiswork firsthand, it was always a
challenge.
But as our work has grown andhas been able to impact more
places, we get to equip more andmore people on our teams to do
this work, and so, as a leader,it's really at this point I'm
(04:32):
just clearing the way for a verytalented group of people that
work with and for us.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
I think that's very well said, because we have that
conversation a lot with ourclients and because so many
people who want to go intoleadership, they want to lead
people.
It sounds really glamorous andit is really rewarding, but
there are just moments where itis the toughest thing to do.
And, yeah, each time we go upthe ladder, or each one one rung
(04:59):
higher, that means that we areone step away from probably why
we started working there.
Yeah, and now we areresponsible for other people's
success yeah, you know I was.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I was something I'm trying to do.
Less is, uh like scrolling youknow me too.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah, it's amazing the time you save it's
ridiculous how much time youwaste.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah, no, it's ridiculous how much time you
waste no, I it's like oh mygoodness, yeah, uh no, just the
other day I I was scrolling andI saw something that actually
really quite motivated me.
Stuck in my head is that she uh, it was just this woman that
she said what if your?
What if your job keeps gettingharder because you keep leveling
up?
yeah and it was like oh yeah,maybe, maybe, maybe that's what
(05:44):
that is right.
And I think that there's alwaysshortcomings and challenges.
You can always, always, alwaysbe a better leader.
Like I think that leadership isone of those inexhaustible
virtues.
Yes, like you're never going tobe 100% kind, you're never
going to be 100% loving, and Ithink leadership is there.
Like there's always going to besomething you can do a little
bit better.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Tell us how you came to pursue this career.
It's so impactful yeah, sure,and I think many of our
listeners and viewers want tomake a greater impact.
How did you come to be in theroles that you're in, and just
what's your path here?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Sure, I started here in Northwest Arkansas.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
I went on a trip with some friends to a prison in
Bolivia called San Pedro, okay,and at the time the prison let
groups of people in likemissionaries and other people
that came to serve thepopulation inside the prison,
groups of people in likemissionaries and other people
that came to serve thepopulation inside the prison.
(06:46):
Um, and we were aimingspecifically, um, just to uh
bring gifts to the children thatactually lived inside of that
prison with their uh family, whowere incarcerated, okay, and
you know, we brought them giftsand toys and just to tell, I
think, have them feel seen, tohave them them feel appreciated,
(07:08):
to tell them that their livesmatter.
And as I was in that prison, Ijust had this overwhelming sense
that these children were payingthe price of their parents'
crimes, right, nothingparticularly profound, really,
quite literal, right, but I wasoverwhelmed with that idea of
children paying the price oftheir parents' crimes.
(07:28):
And so I came home and I guessthis was probably 2007-ish, and
I remember Googling childrenpaying the price of their
parents' crimes, and whatreturned on the Google search
was just stories, war zone afterwar zone after war zone, of of
(07:49):
that, that phrase being used,and I was young, I mean, I guess
I was at that point, I was like22, and I didn't know what to
do with that information.
I just I, um, I took out a sheetof notebook paper and I I did
more and more research aboutwar-torn countries and I I wrote
them down on this sheet ofpaper and I remember nail more
and more research about war-torncountries and I I wrote them
down on this sheet of paper andI remember nailing it into my
doorframe, um, between my livingroom, my kitchen, and so every
(08:14):
day I would pass by it and Ijust would have to think and
pray about, like you know, howcan my life be spent in such a
way that I could impact theseplaces?
I went to my mentor at the timeand I don't exactly know how I
worded it, but I know it wassomething about spending my life
(08:34):
in service of vulnerablepopulations in war affected
countries, and he said what doyou know about doing that?
I was 22 or 23, right, not?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
a lot, not a lot, that's right.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah.
And he said well, then Isuggest that you leave and you
not come back until you do.
And he said if you don't, I'llnever forget this.
He said if you don't doanything quote unquote
meaningful for the next fiveyears, if you don't start a
project for the next five years,are you going to be okay with
just learning?
And I said yeah, and he saidthen I suggest that you leave
and you're not come back untilyou know more.
(09:05):
And so that's what I did.
I just I started I would waittables and work at restaurants,
local people, to watch what washappening as far as conflict
resolution was concerned in thatcountry.
But I did that because I didn'thave any money I didn't get, I
(09:33):
didn't even know really whatlike the, like the, the US
Institute of Peace was, or likewhat the Peace Corps was.
I just I was, I was veryignorant and undereducated in
that in that way, and so I justdid the best I could with what I
had, yes and the.
And the way that you did it onthe shoestring budget that I had
was you get there and then youspend no money, and the way that
(09:55):
you do that is by connectingwith local peace builders.
So I remember sleeping on likebunk beds and couches.
There was even a night I spenton a concrete floor under a like
a a bug net was even a night Ispent on a concrete floor under
a like a bug net, and at thetime I I lamented it.
I'm like you know, I'm not, I'mnot plugged into these big ngos
.
I'm not, I'm not a governmentservant, I'm not working for the
us department of state, likeI'm just this guy sleeping ona
(10:15):
concrete floor.
Um, but in hindsight it was, itwas a best case scenario.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Because, like.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
What I learned was how to see peace building and
conflict resolution through theeyes of local people, people who
were experiencing the conflictand not as some outsider behind
a wall of a compound of aninstitution, right, and so I
think for me that reallyinformed my work of getting
behind local peace builders inthat way, and so I greatly
(10:48):
appreciate that path, instead oflamenting it anymore.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Now that's wonderful and obviously the foresight of
your mentor to say go out andexperience and learn from it.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
And whether it was a challenging way to go do it.
But he probably saw somethingwithin you.
I imagine that said that youhad some kind of passion that he
was seeing.
Yeah, that you were probablyfeeling.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
And he was really good at that.
Like he, looking back, like alot of these guys and women who
invested in me like now that I'mfour years old, seeing how how
do I say this Like how likeuseless I was to them, they were
doing it because they wereinvesting in me, because they
(11:36):
cared about me Right, I didn'thave anything to offer them.
And he did this with a lot, of,a lot of young, young guys and
girls like saying, like, what doyou want to do?
Um, how can I invest in you asa leader?
And, looking back, I'm like itwas a, it was an extreme act of
selflessness, yeah, yeah, um,and so I had my career to thank
(11:57):
him for yeah, so that's, that'sexciting, and yeah we?
Speaker 2 (12:01):
I know we've talked a lot over the years about about
the key fundamental things thatcan bring about peace building.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Can you speak to some of that um, yeah, so um, I
think the the key that you haveto start with is that these
principles do not change basedon your context.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
People look at me and they're like this guy's been to
all these countries andDonald's work and blah, blah,
blah.
Right, but like there's nothingthat I do in the Democratic
Republic of Congo that you can'tdo here in Northwest Arkansas
when it comes to peace buildingand conflict resolution.
Right, because we are all human.
Yes, the concepts remain thesame.
Yes, um, and actually I I havea story about that.
(12:50):
If, if you tell, yeah I'mbeleaguering the stories.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Yeah, this is what it's all about, so fast forward,
uh, several years.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
I, I um that moment of investing right now.
Now we've started a few, a fewprograms and I found myself in
the democratic Republic of theCongo.
Um, and I had made a plan to gothere and we had advertised it
on our website that I was going,but it was just to a few
(13:25):
followers, somehow.
A group of former childcombatants found out that we
were coming to the DRC and theysaid you're coming to where we
are, would you come listen to usabout our mission?
We are former child combatants.
And they had left the armedgroups and they had started
(13:46):
their own program demobilizingand reintegrating children from
from the groups.
And I was like, yes, I will, Iwill listen to you, yes.
And so that was like 48 hoursbefore we were supposed to leave
, 24 hours before we weresupposed to leave, they said we
have told the armed groups aboutyou coming.
They want to meet with you too.
Oh, wow, groups about youcoming.
(14:08):
They want to meet with you too.
Oh, wow, yeah, what like?
Why?
Why would you?
So now pause there, like, inhindsight, as a professional
like you have to meet with armedgroups if you're going to build
peace.
Right, true, you do.
But as a young guy I'm like Ididn't, I didn't know that and
it was very intimidating.
Oh, you can imagine thingsother.
Yeah, and so we, we showed upand we got into a toyota land
cruise or whatever.
It was, four by four to go wayout into um kind of a rural area
(14:32):
.
Um, that was fairly and stillis fairly notorious for armed
group action, right.
Um and uh, we, we drove out andour vehicle got stuck in some
mud and we had gone down areally kind of notorious road
where, if the sun was to go downon that road, it would turn
(14:55):
into a really bad situation.
You don't want to be on thatroad at night, but to move ahead
was to go on foot into the bushlike into this very rural area
and at this point kind of like alot of that uncertainty and
that ignorance and that anxietyabout the area that I'd never
been to, at this point kind ofcame to a point.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
And.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
I started to not panic by any means, but just get
nervous.
What's going to happen withthis?
And where am I?
And what am I doing?
Like, why did I not take a jobas a zookeeper, or like which?
By the way, zookeepers areamazing, um, uh, but oftentimes
they don't have to deal with, um, armed groups.
And so, all of a sudden, peoplejust started coming out of this
(15:43):
tall grass out of nowhere.
I don't know where they'recoming from.
It was women in brightlycolored Congolese dresses and
men who had on like sport coatsand like muck boots rubber boots
, yeah, and then I, you know,it's like, again, I assumed the
worst, right, because now I'mafraid, and stuff.
And really, without sayinganything at all to me or asking
(16:04):
for anything, they just startedto rock our vehicle back and
forth, um push, and then throwhay under the the wheels and
rocks under the wheels, and allof a sudden, somebody yelled
something in the local dialectand and the driver stomped on
the gas and the truck popped outof the mud and we were on our
way.
Wow, right, and and it.
It was in that moment that Ialmost felt ashamed.
(16:26):
I'm like, why was I so afraid,right?
What did I think was going tohappen?
And why did I think that thesepeople would do anything other
than help me?
Right, and that is another bigpoint in my life where it's like
it occurred to me that nomatter where you go in the world
, no matter how far away quote,unquote someplace feels you will
never not be around humanbeings.
(16:46):
And we went on to meet with thearmed group leaders and we've
been there ever since,demobilizing both combatants and
child combatants.
It's been 10 years now we'vebeen working there.
And so, to get to your question,the number one thing is, when
you're working with conflictresolution and peace building in
(17:09):
your own context is, first ofall, remember that you're
working with humans and thinkabout how you yourself would
respond in the situation thatyou are attempting to resolve or
to impact.
Are attempting to resolve or toimpact, whether you're one of
the combatants in the situationor whether you're a third party
(17:30):
mediator.
You should be able, in somerespect, to empathize with what
they're going through.
In many respects, like I'mnever going to know what it's
like to be a child combatant.
Ever, no matter how much Istudy it, I will never know what
it feels like to feel that kindof hopelessness and abandonment
, et cetera.
But I try, you know, like I, II try to empathize.
And the same goes when I have afight with my wife.
(17:52):
I try to put my myself in mywife's shoes and think what if
I'm having a deal with this jerk?
you know, and and he's, he's ina bad mood, right, Um.
And the second thing then, onceyou've dealt dealt with your
the need to empathize as much aspossible, when it's possible,
is to, um, to listen deeply,deeply, deeply and I don't mean
(18:13):
here, I mean listen, uh, to whatthey're saying.
And after you've listened andyou've patiently taken in the
information, then then start tothink, yeah, about what you've
heard, yes, right, because mygoodness, if you're not, if
you're not allowing, yourself tohear everything before then
start to think yeah about whatyou've heard.
Yes, right, because, my goodness, if you're not, if you're not
allowing yourself to heareverything before you start to
think and formulate, you havestopped listening.
Um, and I know this sounds kindof like cliche in a way, but
(18:35):
like it's at the heart of whatwe do, because it's so darn hard
yeah, it's very hard toactually do it.
And then, um, then take actionat that point.
Then then, once you'veprocessed the information, give
it a try, try to solve it, yeah,and then, lastly, after you've
tried to solve it, reflect onyour actions.
And we call it in our fieldit's called reflective versus
(18:59):
reflexive action, wherereflection you kind of think
about what you did, butreflexivity is then adjusting
your behavior and trying itagain.
And one of my favorite peacebuilders and a colleague of mine
at GMU, at George Mason, susanAllen, um, dr Susan Allen, she
says and then just keep showingup, because it will draw that
(19:21):
cycle of listen, think, act,reflect, listen, think, act,
reflect.
We'll wear you out, but you gotto keep showing up.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
You know, as you're talking and sharing.
First of all, thank you forsharing the story, but I think
about some of the things we justdo in our everyday work, and
there are so many human thingsthat occur in the world that are
either parallel or they're soclose to being similar but yet
different.
So, for example, we work withpeople all the time who are just
(19:51):
you know, they're in theirenvironment, they're in their
work environment or theircommunity environment, and we
have these times where we don'tlisten first or we judge based
upon the way that person looks,because we might be fearful of
them.
And so one of the things we talkabout frequently is that in
order to move beyond thosewhether they're biases or those
(20:14):
fears first thing we have to dois we have to listen and we have
to spot a difference, thatwhere they may be different than
us.
And once we do that, then wecan figure out how can we have,
how can we adjust if they'redifferent from us, to have a
better engagement to whetherit's introducing ourselves or
working with them.
And then we have to do once wehave to start that it's not
(20:37):
always going to go so well, sowe have to keep trying and
getting better at it.
Each time it's the same as ifwe're.
If I want to go and I haven'tworked out for a while, and
occasionally that happens I haveto get back in it and I have to
reteach my body even to go dothose things.
Yeah, that's right.
And then, on our side, too, thelast element we talked about,
after you keep trying, is yousometimes just got to take a
(20:58):
step back and laugh, becausemost of these things that we
deal with, often they're allmanageable, but people think
they're insurmountable at times.
You're managing a differenttype in a more critical
environment, but they're stillto your point.
People yeah, that's right, andit's the same things that can
(21:19):
occur there.
So I really it's kind ofconnecting that in there a
little bit about, wow, you'redoing this.
Dangerous at times were also,but you're doing it because you
are compelled to do it, becauseyou're passionate about it,
because it makes a difference.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Yeah, so I love that part of it yeah, and I, as I was
listening to you, I again asimilar thought.
These are the fundamentals ofinfluence.
They are the fundamentals ofconflict resolution yeah whether
you're in a war-torn area andmeeting with armed combatants or
you're at work.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
There's a lot of similarity in that approach.
Now, one of the things you'vementioned in previous
conversations with us is thatproviding economic opportunities
for some of the young men whowould choose to go into the
armed combatants.
And young women and young women, yes, that are choosing to go
into that.
(22:14):
Can you speak to that a littlebit, because I think that's also
really very applicable fordomestic?
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, without a doubt .
No matter where you go in theworld, young people are seeking
sources of respect yes, yes.
Viable sources, yeah,sustainable, yes um, and and you
know, I I have to be reallycareful with the word choice
when it comes to a minor in inan armed combat situation like
(22:43):
it, no matter, no matter howmuch of a choice it appears uh,
if, if this is a, if this issomebody under the age of 18,
they've been coerced.
Yeah right, um.
And so, generally speaking, thenot generally speaking, I would
say definitely the.
The theme there is, whetheryou're in the united states or
(23:05):
you're in the drc, or you're inthe DRC, or you're in
Afghanistan, wherever, if youare living a life where you
reach a certain age and youstart to realize that the cards
that you've been dealt arelikely not going to be
sufficient for the goals thatsociety tells you are necessary
(23:27):
for your success and yourrespect, you are going to start
looking for alternatives tothose cards.
Yeah Right, and in the DRC andin other places where child
combatants um are a uh, presentphenomenon, um, the, the
societal expectations,especially of young men, but
(23:48):
also of young women, butespecially of young men, is to
say, in order to be a man, youare going to need to get married
, you're going to need to have ajob, you need to be able to
provide for yourself.
But also a lot of young peoplewill look around and say, man,
I'm hungry, I don't have accessto medicine, I can't afford
education.
And so all these systems thatsay here's how you rise
(24:08):
legitimately, through education,through getting married,
through society they don't haveaccess to.
And then along comes you knowtheir cousin or their friend or
just, or just a random armedgroup member and says you can
find respect and sustainabilityat the other end of this AK 47.
Right, are you going to take it?
They're, they're given, they'regiven the option to to take up
(24:29):
arms and to to become a part ofan armed group that says if you
join our armed group, you willfind respect, you will find food
, you will find what you need tosucceed.
Um, that, that type ofphenomenon you find right here
in the United States.
I mean, I spent a good portionof my childhood in in in Memphis
, tennessee, and, like um, therewas gang culture there.
It's the same thing, you knowgangs come along and say, hey,
(24:51):
you have a place with us, youbelong with us.
Uh, violence is a part of ouridentity, but that's how we gain
respect, et cetera, et cetera.
So it's not unique to waraffected countries by having
some grind.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
And faster than anything.
Um, as you think about yourwork and and what lies ahead in
the future, what are some of thebiggest goals that you have,
Jeez?
Speaker 1 (25:18):
I number one.
I really want to equip othersto do what I've done.
I'm only 40, but like I feelolder, like like 40 feels other
than 39, yeah, in a way that 39doesn't necessarily support 38,
um, and I'm realizing that liketo to truly make a broader
(25:43):
impact is is not to get super,super, super good at what you do
and and procure all this moneyand and, but it's to empower
other people too.
Right, cause the more peoplethat think about peace, um, the
more peace there will be.
Um, so I'm, I'm, I'm working ashard as I can, um, to ensure
that anybody that comes to methat says I want to do what you
do, that I open up as many doorsas possible for them to do that
(26:05):
.
It's why I love teaching, it'swhy we have just a litany of
interns at Innovations inPeacebuilding and at GMU.
But professionally, we've gotgoals that say that there would
be no country in the worldexperiencing civil war or armed
(26:25):
group action that doesn't have apresence, that doesn't have a
professional presence from ourorganizations in it.
Like, I would really like tohave players in these, in these
spaces, trying to solve theseproblems.
Um, and it's such a bigquestion I I really like allow
myself to think about that,because it's always like today's
(26:48):
problems are predominant, right, um, but I I also think that,
um, I would really and we'reworking on this at george mason
um, I really want to change theway that people think about um,
the intersection of business andpeace and government policies
(27:10):
and peace, where a lot of times,when you think about peace work
, it's like it's this ngo orit's this charity that's doing
this thing over here, right, but?
But a lot of the answers, a lotof the sustainable and scalable
answers for peace building, Ithink, lie in um, in the ways
that a lot of powerful forcescould slightly change their
behavior, and actually whatwe're arguing is that it doesn't
(27:34):
just have to be for benevolence, it doesn't just have to be
that it's the right thing to do,that like.
There's a lot of examples outthere that show that peace is
actually profitable.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
And that if you could turn an area away from conflict
, that businesses would actuallythrive, if they could even
measure in the medium and longterm.
And so that's one thing.
It's a big thing when you talkabout, like, what do you want to
do in the future is tonormativize the idea that peace
and stability is actually reallybeneficial for people that have
(28:11):
access to existing powerstructures.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
And that makes a lot of sense.
As I think about that, there isstuff that has been written
about the fact that where dobusinesses, where do they see
growth, in what countries in thefuture?
And it's not unusual to hearthat growth will come in Africa
at some point, and it'shappening now for sure.
(28:36):
And so that's part of thateconomic opportunity of bringing
that growth there.
We should be able to helpfurther move people away from
violence more and towardsbuilding building a career, if
you would say, and then I wouldimagine education will follow.
(28:56):
That be more higher educationopportunities for a broader
spectrum of people.
Would that be true?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
yeah, I think that it's like I go back to your
question, patty, about um, theeconomics.
Yeah, I kind of got sidetrackedon like respect etc.
But like um, it doesn't take awhole lot for for a young man or
young woman who would otherwisepick up um a weapon and go into
armed groups to, to have accessto self-sustainability right, a
(29:24):
couple hundred bucks, yes, toput it through vocational
training and they become abarber instead of a fighter.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
I think, thinking on large scales like this, though,
ken, it's going to take thecollective action of local
governments, local powerstructures, local businesses way
, way more than outsiders Okay.
Structures local businesses way, way more than outsiders Okay,
right.
I think there's like this kindof this neocolonial mindset that
(29:51):
we have to get out of asprofessionals that think that we
possess the answers.
Indeed, we, as a professionalpeace practitioner and
strategist, like, yes, I do haveideas and answers, but unless
local people, unless thoseexperiencing conflict, want
peace more than I want it forthem, it will never succeed yeah
(30:13):
, and they have to be the onesthat you facilitate, but they
have to be the ones that come upwith it yeah, I have to be
really careful how I talk aboutthis, because it's it's it's
actually a really like, like hottopic in in terms of like, what
is the role of the outsider?
yes okay, um, and rightly so Iagree.
(30:36):
But, um, there are some whowould argue that if there were
systems and strategies in placefor areas that are experiencing
conflict to solve themselves, itwould yeah, and that's not just
in the DRC, right, that's inhere in the United States.
(30:57):
Here in the United States aswell.
There's like entrenched cyclesof conflict that sometimes it
takes an outsider to come in andbe like have you thought about
it this way?
Right, and that's, I think,like the main purpose of the
outside peace strategist orpeace builder is to bring
networks of ideas and innovationand theories and say have you
(31:17):
thought about it this way?
Right.
But ultimately, what you saidis that unless the ideas for
peace and sustainability comefrom the minds of locals,
they're not going to succeed.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Because it's not me that wakes up thinking every day
about how I'm going to get mynext meal if I don't commit an
act of violence Right, or it'snot me that has to think about
my child who might leave and bekilled tomorrow in an armed
group.
Right Action right.
They are the ones who wake upand think every day about how
they would solve it if theycould.
And so listening to localsabout their ideas for peace and
(31:52):
then running it through oureducation network's experiences
and saying here's how I think wecould accomplish this I think
that's the main role of thepeace builder.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
So you really are playing a role of facilitating.
You're bringing ideas and yetyou're facilitating their
discussion.
Role of the peace builder soyou really are playing a role as
facilitating without bringingideas, and and.
And yet you're facilitatingtheir discussion, which leads to
the development of theapplicable ideas for them and
the adoption I think that'sright, yeah, yeah that's kind of
how we do strategic planning Ican see our firm.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yes, you know, we can't come in and tell you what
to do.
Do you work with humans?
Speaker 2 (32:21):
you work with humans.
Right, you work with humans.
There's a commonality.
Imagine that Right, and yearsago I went to a class offered by
a guy named Bob Pine.
He's retired now, but great,great information, and one of
the things that he said was keywhen you're teaching is create
(32:41):
experiences where people come upwith their own data love it
yeah, and I mean it just stuckwith me.
I was probably 25 nice and I.
I design everything that we doyeah, yeah, the uh do it not,
not to you, but with you.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
100, yeah, not for you, yeah and and I think to add
to that toward goals andmeasures of success that have
been designed by them.
Right, yes, right, it's soimportant, it's really wild,
right.
Yeah, like the things that wethink we need as Americans.
Yeah, even if somebody inanother culture had a billion
(33:17):
dollars, they still wouldn'twant the thing that we want a
lot of times.
Right, it's just not a part,right, and so things that we
oftentimes feel like, well, thiswould be a great measure of
success.
If we're going for, you know,peace in this area, folks are
like, yeah, we don't need that.
Thank you, though.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Yeah, you know, that's very true.
I think the other thing too is,you know, talking about change
A lot of this, we're talkingabout change.
A lot of this we're talkingabout change is it always plays
out the human element of.
I'm going to be a whole lotmore open to change, under two
conditions.
One is I'm creating the change.
It's my idea had something todo, sure.
(33:55):
Or two is that I became and yousaid it, I became part of a
group and I was informed aboutideas, and then I had a voice to
share about what those ideascould be.
Now I'm willing to be an ownerof that change and to help that
change, versus, again to yourpoint of not having a voice and
(34:17):
not being a part of it and justsomeone, whether it's an
organization like ours, cominginto a business from the outside
, or someone coming from theoutside into a country, who's
going to say this, this is whatyou should do, without actually
speaking to them first, whichsounds like that's a whole lot
of frankly devastating examplesto the contrary.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yeah, you know yeah, because one thing that I think
you can like sort of witness inthis is if you come in with the
money, you're going to findsomebody to listen who will
listen to you, right Like, andthat's where it gets super
(35:00):
dangerous.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Because if you know person X, y and person Z, you
know they see that you're goingto pay them and the alternative
is to let their kids go hungry,like they're going to do
whatever you tell them to.
Yeah, but as an outsider, ifyou're not strategizing, it will
almost certainly make thingsworse.
And again, I think it's truehere too.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yeah.
I agree, I agree, certainlymake things worse.
Yeah, um, and again, I thinkit's true here too.
Yeah, I agree, but can youshare a story that that really
was uplifting and sort ofaffirms what you know?
Yeah, I got here at the firstplace wait, uh, what was the
last part?
That affirms why you're doingthis.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Oh my goodness you know what, why, how.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
What brought you here ?
Speaker 1 (35:42):
there was a young.
I tell the story all the time.
There is this young woman.
I'm gonna not say her name,okay, but she is congolese and
if you come to enough of ourevents, you'll, you'll see um
we'll.
We talk about her a lot because,um, she was taken into, uh, the
armed groups in the DRC as achild bride and my understanding
(36:07):
is that her quoting husbanddied and she was given to
another gentleman intersectedwith our program and was we
alongside the locals that wework with, provided a path out
(36:28):
for her and at the time ourprogram was less refined and our
working alongside localcaretakers psychologically,
mental and emotional andphysical health, nutritional
health, new clothes, you know.
(36:50):
They gave her time and herpeers time to adjust right
before going back into hervillage.
The local caretakers there areoutstanding at that.
But then, as our program kickedin, it was now she's back and
we gave her two pregnant goats,um, as we did all the combat the
former combatants, um, andstarted helping her think
(37:13):
through, like, what are yougoing to do with this investment
and what do you want to do withwith the near term of your life
?
And um, so you know she was justa kid and we gave her these
goats and then we left, becausea huge part of what we do is
come in, uh, enact the localstrategy that we partner with,
and then we get out because it's, it's not our place, right,
(37:36):
it's, it's, it's local people'splace.
Um, well, so just sort of notrandomly, but but kind of
randomly, we went back to hervillage, like I guess it was
maybe two and a half, threeyears later and yeah, I don't
know, maybe a year and a half, Ihonestly don't remember it was
a good amount of time.
uh, we found her, like justrandomly, like whoa, hey, whoa,
(38:00):
you've a huge herd of goats.
Like all of a sudden, wow, andit was dozens.
She had just done really well,like she listened to what we,
you know, advised her to do ongoat husbandry.
Then the veterinarian that wepaid to accompany these kids and
their goats was doing a greatjob and she was succeeding.
And we said so what do you donext?
(38:22):
And she said I want to be aseamstress, I want to make
clothing.
And uh, she's like I'm going tosell a couple of my goats to
buy a, uh, sewing machine, right?
So I, you know, I don'tremember if it was it was maybe
like 10, 12 goats that she had.
(38:42):
And I have a rule, y'all, like Idon't interrupt processes when
my emotions get high.
I like you gotta let theprocess play out right.
But for some reason I justcouldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't
and I said, nah, I'm gonna buyyou a sewing machine personally,
not with my organization'smoney.
I just can't.
I can't stand the thought ofyou selling your goats at this
point, like you're, you'resucceeding, you're crushing it.
(39:02):
And I did, bought her a sewingmachine and then, just a few
days later, after we left, um,we got word, uh that she had
decided um to to donate two ofher goats to our organization,
(39:25):
thereby becoming the Africancontinent's first donor to our
organization.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah, and she said I want to give.
I want to give you these goatsso that you can give them to the
next young lady that you findthat has lived out my situation,
so that she can have the sameopportunity that I had.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Wow, what an amazing story, yeah I still get
goosebumps.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Yeah, no, I every time I tell a story, I'd like I
try not to cry, right?
So then this is not the end ofthe story.
So then we yeah, we like passedon the goats and we found
another young lady and it was anamazing thing, right.
So then more time passed, andthis time it was more time than
the previous window, right?
And then again we find ourselfin her village and now she's a
(40:09):
grown woman and she has dozensof goats at this point, like she
is, and my understanding isthat she became one of the most
like powerful not powerful, butlike most influential.
You know, I don't want to usethe term rich, but like well
apportioned individuals in hervillage.
Okay, and she took that sewingmachine that we gave her when
(40:29):
she was still a girl, and shedid so well with it that she
opened up a seamstress shop thatagain she said I want more
young ladies to have theopportunity that I've had, and
so she turned it into apart-time sewing school for
vulnerable young ladies, and soshe introduced us to all these
girls that she was teaching howto sew and she showed us their
products.
And again she's just crushingit.
(40:52):
Like every time I learn abouther, it's like.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Because it's not just that her life improved, it's
that her life improved and herheart was oriented in such a way
that she wanted others to sharein her success.
And so, um, at our last gala,um, we actually had a ton of her
products that we gave away toour donors, um, that she made
for us oh wow, that's reallyreally cool wow yeah, no.
(41:15):
So it's like that.
It's that one great story, onelife.
You know, like if if we spentour entire lives such that one
young lady would leave thesegroups, would it be worth it?
Yeah, and the answer isabsolutely it would, because you
never know what that nextcatalyzing moment might be.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
Yeah, she's creating opportunities and safety for
others.
That's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Yeah, wonderful story , thank you for sharing.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
Yeah, wonderful story.
Thank you for sharing, yeah,but I want to I don't know if I
may like you know these stories,like they're great, and I think
that when I first started this,this is what I hoped my life
would matter for.
And who knows what's going tohappen in the next 20, 30 years
of doing more of this right,what's going to happen in the
(42:04):
next 20, 30 years of doing moreof this right, but like, if, if
there's people listening to thispodcast, like y'all like you
don't have to start an NGO andwork in war-affected countries
to be a peace builder, um, andand ultimately, like the
greatest thing that we can do isto be peaceful people, yes,
like your example, the thingsthat you choose to do today as a
peace builder with those thatyou are interacting with, that
(42:25):
is the most important thing youcan do, period.
And if you can't get that partof your life in line, don't feel
like you then have to dosomething that's even more
challenging where you try toaffect other environments.
Um, make sure that you arerefining yourself as well, right
, and y'all like I'm not I'm notthere yet.
Like I've been a quote, unquotepeace builder for 20 years,
(42:49):
right, and I'm still not there.
And I and unless I become asaint before I die, I it's it's
likely that I won't Right, butbut let's, I just want to
encourage your listeners like tonot forget that, that part of
it that if we could allintrospect about our own
behavior, peace building as aprofession wouldn't be um a
viable option, because yeah yeah, yeah that makes total sense.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
I think, um, as I hear that you know, our tagline
is really it's exploring goodconnections in life and work and
communities, and the workyou're doing is connecting.
You're connecting to groups ofpeople and you're helping them
make connections, and I justfind it to be this.
It is to your point and I thinkit's very well said.
(43:37):
It's something that shouldconvey everywhere, regardless of
where you're at, to be able towork towards this in order to
create good lives, create goodexperiences for people and give
them the opportunities.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Yeah, and as we kind of think about wrapping up, this
has been amazing.
Can you share with ourlisteners and viewers things to
consider when they are findingthemselves really wanting to
make an impact?
Either in their community oroutside of their community.
I think what you just shared isa really great first step.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
What are some of the other things that you can
encourage them to be doing andthinking?
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So I think.
Secondly, like when you turnoutward to do right, I think we
have to start with the B Firstbe peaceful yes right.
Then then start thinking aboutthe dude, and.
And one of my first things Itell all my students I teach at
george mason um university, Ialso teach at george washington
university all my students I sayokay, the first thing we have
(44:39):
to consider is augustinphilosophy.
St Augustine, st Augustine,however you want to pronounce it
what he taught us is philosophyof the good right that.
His contention was that there'sno such thing as an evil person
.
There are evil acts, yes, butevil people, yes, uh, but evil
(45:02):
people, uh.
He.
He challenged um and and he, uh, he.
He challenges us to think aboutum, the, the, the math, like
kind of the algebra of, of howpeople consider their actions,
and and and, even something thatappears to be something that,
excuse me, even something thatis a bad action.
(45:23):
We have to think about whypeople chose that action, um,
and he even gives this exampleof um attempting for himself to
remember a time where he didsomething that was just purely
evil, purely wrong, where hecouldn't ascribe any anything
good to his choice.
(45:43):
And he said aha, there was atime where I jumped over a stone
wall with my friends and Istole a bunch of pears off of a
pear tree.
And then we jumped back overthe stone wall and ran away, and
it was a purely evil act,because we weren't hungry, we
didn't need the pears, we didn'tsell the pears, we didn't give
the pears away.
In fact, my understanding aboutthe conclusion is that they
(46:04):
just wasted them, like theythrew them into a field and left
Right, yeah, and then, if mymemory serves me correct, it was
actually in his recantationsthat he wrote later that he said
no, I was wrong.
Even then, I was wrong, thatwhat I was looking for, the good
(46:25):
that I was seeking in that act,was fellowship, that what my
heart wanted was to feel inunion with my friends.
And so, yes, the act was evil,but the good that I uncovered
was I wanted to feel close to myfriends, right?
So scrutinizing the way that weconclude about how we're
judging other people's behaviorsright is, in my opinion, the
(46:46):
first thing that we have to do.
Right again, this is notcondoning bad actions, it is not
telling you that you shouldn'tjudge things that are people are
choosing to do poorly, but whatwe have to interrogate is why
do we think they're doing that?
And then start there, right?
So that's where you go next,and then from there, it depends
(47:09):
on how engaged you want to be asa peace builder, right, but
investing your time intolistening to situations,
studying situations, investingyour time into finding out what
are the basic human needs thatpeople are perhaps missing?
Because it's not, you.
Think about Maslow's hierarchyof needs.
It's not just food, water,shelter, protection, right.
(47:30):
Think about self-actualization,think about mental health,
think about connections andfamily and community and the
sense of belonging.
Think about identity andcultural belonging, right.
It's at that point you canstart to discover if you want to
be a peace builder, finding outwhat it is that is leading
people to feel a sense ofdeprivation.
(47:54):
This is, in peace theory, theidea of relative deprivation.
This person has a thing that Idon't have and therefore I'm
going to take it A lot of timescan be explained in that that
sort of like analysis of whatpeople need, and you can
discover those needs bylistening, respect, love,
(48:14):
belonging.
Yeah, it's just asking andstudying and thinking.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Fantastic.
Sorry that got a little heady.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
No, so compelling, so thinking yeah, yeah, fantastic,
sorry that got a little heady,no, so compelling, so compelling
, I love that True.
Yeah, anything else you want toshare before we wrap it up?
Speaker 1 (48:31):
No, like I said, I want to invest personally in
people.
I hope that our listeners dotoo.
We offer a lot in the ways ofhelping people orient in this
field, so check outinnovationsandpeacebuildingorg,
google Applied Peace StrategyCenter for Applied Peace
(48:52):
Strategies at George MasonUniversity.
There's lots of ways tointeract with what we're doing.
If they want to donate toeither organization, they're
both tax-adaptable organizations, but money is only the
beginning of how people cansupport what we do.
So, connect with us, find outmore.
We'd love to have you along forthe ride, and viewers and
(49:14):
listeners.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
We will have that information on our
4BarsPodcastcom website in ourresources section, so you'll be
able to find the informationthat you're mentioning and any
other resources that we haverelated to that.
Speaker 3 (49:30):
Great and we want to thank you again, dr Charles
Davidson, for being here Again.
Wonderful reality of whatyou're impacting the folks who
are all part of this and othersaround the world.
So thank you, yeah, Thanks forhaving me, thank you.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Thank you and listeners thanks.
We'll see you next time.
The 4 Bars Podcast has beenbrought to you by Edges Inc.
A growth advisory firm based inBentonville, arkansas.
I founded the company in 2001.
Speaker 3 (49:56):
Edges promotes growth , people, companies and ideas.
Our team collaboration tool,called Interface Methods, is a
basis for teams to work togethermore collaboratively,
understand each other and acceptdifferences and address
challenges together.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
We also started a non-profit called Unform your
Bias.
We teach kids and their adultinfluencers how to utilize
storytelling as a means toreduce bias in the world.
We hope you'll check us out,subscribe to our podcast and
look at our website.
All of a sudden, somebody yelled something in the
local dialect and the driverstomped on the gas and the truck
popped out of the mud and wewere on our way.
Wow, and it was in that momentthat I almost felt ashamed.
I'm like, why was I so afraid?
What did I think was going tohappen, and why did I think that
these people would do anythingother than help me?
And that is another big pointin my life where it's like it
(00:24):
occurred to me that no matterwhere you go in the world, no
matter how far away quoteunquote someplace feels you will
never not be around humanbeings.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Welcome to the Four Bars podcast.
I'm Ken Leith.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
And I'm Patti Leith.
We are your host for somecompelling dialogue, encouraging
our listeners to strengthentheir connections and build
strong communities lifting eachother up and connecting in ways
that matter.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
We named the podcast Four Bars as a reference to how
hard we work to find a Four Barsconnection on our devices and
we wondered what could happenwith relationships if we worked
as hard at connecting.
Let's find out.
Welcome back to Four Barspodcast.
I'm one of your hosts, kenLeith.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
And I'm Patti Leith.
Welcome back.
We're excited to have you andexcited about our guest.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Yes, this episode we have, dr Charles Davidson.
Charles, we've known for quitea while now and Charles is
actually visiting here in town,so appreciate that.
Give you a little information,charles.
I'm going to read a little bithere.
Charles is a director ofresearch and practice at the
Center for Applied PeaceStrategies at George Mason
University.
Additionally, charles ispresident of Innovation and
(01:27):
Peace Building, that's right.
Can you tell us a little bitabout those and about your roles
?
Sure?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yes, yeah, fascinating career that you have
.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I appreciate that.
Yeah Well, it's good to see youguys.
I think the first time I've metyou in person, right?
I've known you for like fouryears, but it's the first time
I've met you in person.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I've known you for like four years, but it's the
first time.
Today we started in yourpolitical leadership academy
there at.
Jmu and it was all remotebecause it was during the
pandemic.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
I think you were part of the very first
co-coordinator.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yeah, it's good to be here.
Yeah, I mean, frankly, I've gotmy dream job.
It's something that I've workedtoward my entire adult life as
the director for research andpractice at the Center for
Applied Peace Strategies atGeorge Mason.
We are we're breaking newground in starting a university
(02:17):
excuse me, university levelcenter that is working to
integrate all of the talents andabilities that the university,
that George Mason University hasin engineering and business and
education and art andtechnology and law, trying to
pull together talents fromacross those fields to think
really scalably, sustainably,strategically about peace
(02:40):
building issues that haveplagued places for a long time
and, additionally, innovationsin Peace.
Building is actually anorganization that I started here
at Northwest Arkansas back in2009, which has been going ever
since, and we, you know,obviously we innovate
peacebuilding strategies withthat, too, very much on the
ground.
We lead a global team invarious strategic places around
(03:03):
the world and have done so for along time.
But those two institutions aretwo separate institutions that I
run in my time.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Fantastic, fantastic.
You just came back from a trade.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
I did.
Yeah, I just got back fromBurundi, which is kind of in the
heart of the Great Lakes regionof Africa and East Africa.
It's a fantastic place.
I kind of call Burundi like myAfrican home.
I've got a godson there becauseI've worked there for so long.
Yeah, it's really central to alot of the programming we do in
South Sudan, the DemocraticRepublic of the Congo and
(03:38):
Burundi itself.
So it's a great place that Istay and then people we come, we
meet our teams from all overthat region to strategize there.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
That's meaningful work and it sounds like it's
very rewarding, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
I mean, it's hard work.
I think the things you see onInstagram are sort of the
glamorous shots that we get totake when stuff goes well, but
the vast majority of leadership,as you know, is the crap rolls
uphill.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
So I'm always like blocking for other people to be
able to do their work, and youknow, when I was a young guy on
the ground getting to do thiswork firsthand, it was always a
challenge.
But as our work has grown andhas been able to impact more
places, we get to equip more andmore people on our teams to do
this work, and so, as a leader,it's really at this point I'm
(04:32):
just clearing the way for a verytalented group of people that
work with and for us.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
I think that's very well said, because we have that
conversation a lot with ourclients and because so many
people who want to go intoleadership, they want to lead
people.
It sounds really glamorous andit is really rewarding, but
there are just moments where itis the toughest thing to do.
And, yeah, each time we go upthe ladder, or each one one rung
(04:59):
higher, that means that we areone step away from probably why
we started working there.
Yeah, and now we areresponsible for other people's
success yeah, you know I was.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I was something I'm trying to do.
Less is, uh like scrolling youknow me too.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah, it's amazing the time you save it's
ridiculous how much time youwaste.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah, no, it's ridiculous how much time you
waste no, I it's like oh mygoodness, yeah, uh no, just the
other day I I was scrolling andI saw something that actually
really quite motivated me.
Stuck in my head is that she uh, it was just this woman that
she said what if your?
What if your job keeps gettingharder because you keep leveling
up?
yeah and it was like oh yeah,maybe, maybe, maybe that's what
(05:44):
that is right.
And I think that there's alwaysshortcomings and challenges.
You can always, always, alwaysbe a better leader.
Like I think that leadership isone of those inexhaustible
virtues.
Yes, like you're never going tobe 100% kind, you're never
going to be 100% loving, and Ithink leadership is there.
Like there's always going to besomething you can do a little
bit better.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Tell us how you came to pursue this career.
It's so impactful yeah, sure,and I think many of our
listeners and viewers want tomake a greater impact.
How did you come to be in theroles that you're in, and just
what's your path here?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Sure, I started here in Northwest Arkansas.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
I went on a trip with some friends to a prison in
Bolivia called San Pedro, okay,and at the time the prison let
groups of people in likemissionaries and other people
that came to serve thepopulation inside the prison,
groups of people in likemissionaries and other people
that came to serve thepopulation inside the prison.
(06:46):
Um, and we were aimingspecifically, um, just to uh
bring gifts to the children thatactually lived inside of that
prison with their uh family, whowere incarcerated, okay, and
you know, we brought them giftsand toys and just to tell, I
think, have them feel seen, tohave them them feel appreciated,
(07:08):
to tell them that their livesmatter.
And as I was in that prison, Ijust had this overwhelming sense
that these children were payingthe price of their parents'
crimes, right, nothingparticularly profound, really,
quite literal, right, but I wasoverwhelmed with that idea of
children paying the price oftheir parents' crimes.
(07:28):
And so I came home and I guessthis was probably 2007-ish, and
I remember Googling childrenpaying the price of their
parents' crimes, and whatreturned on the Google search
was just stories, war zone afterwar zone after war zone, of of
(07:49):
that, that phrase being used,and I was young, I mean, I guess
I was at that point, I was like22, and I didn't know what to
do with that information.
I just I, um, I took out a sheetof notebook paper and I I did
more and more research aboutwar-torn countries and I I wrote
them down on this sheet ofpaper and I remember nail more
and more research about war-torncountries and I I wrote them
down on this sheet of paper andI remember nailing it into my
doorframe, um, between my livingroom, my kitchen, and so every
(08:14):
day I would pass by it and Ijust would have to think and
pray about, like you know, howcan my life be spent in such a
way that I could impact theseplaces?
I went to my mentor at the timeand I don't exactly know how I
worded it, but I know it wassomething about spending my life
(08:34):
in service of vulnerablepopulations in war affected
countries, and he said what doyou know about doing that?
I was 22 or 23, right, not?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
a lot, not a lot, that's right.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah.
And he said well, then Isuggest that you leave and you
not come back until you do.
And he said if you don't, I'llnever forget this.
He said if you don't doanything quote unquote
meaningful for the next fiveyears, if you don't start a
project for the next five years,are you going to be okay with
just learning?
And I said yeah, and he saidthen I suggest that you leave
and you're not come back untilyou know more.
(09:05):
And so that's what I did.
I just I started I would waittables and work at restaurants,
local people, to watch what washappening as far as conflict
resolution was concerned in thatcountry.
But I did that because I didn'thave any money I didn't get, I
(09:33):
didn't even know really whatlike the, like the, the US
Institute of Peace was, or likewhat the Peace Corps was.
I just I was, I was veryignorant and undereducated in
that in that way, and so I justdid the best I could with what I
had, yes and the.
And the way that you did it onthe shoestring budget that I had
was you get there and then youspend no money, and the way that
(09:55):
you do that is by connectingwith local peace builders.
So I remember sleeping on likebunk beds and couches.
There was even a night I spenton a concrete floor under a like
a a bug net was even a night Ispent on a concrete floor under
a like a bug net, and at thetime I I lamented it.
I'm like you know, I'm not, I'mnot plugged into these big ngos
.
I'm not, I'm not a governmentservant, I'm not working for the
us department of state, likeI'm just this guy sleeping ona
(10:15):
concrete floor.
Um, but in hindsight it was, itwas a best case scenario.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Because, like.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
What I learned was how to see peace building and
conflict resolution through theeyes of local people, people who
were experiencing the conflictand not as some outsider behind
a wall of a compound of aninstitution, right, and so I
think for me that reallyinformed my work of getting
behind local peace builders inthat way, and so I greatly
(10:48):
appreciate that path, instead oflamenting it anymore.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Now that's wonderful and obviously the foresight of
your mentor to say go out andexperience and learn from it.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
And whether it was a challenging way to go do it.
But he probably saw somethingwithin you.
I imagine that said that youhad some kind of passion that he
was seeing.
Yeah, that you were probablyfeeling.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
And he was really good at that.
Like he, looking back, like alot of these guys and women who
invested in me like now that I'mfour years old, seeing how how
do I say this Like how likeuseless I was to them, they were
doing it because they wereinvesting in me, because they
(11:36):
cared about me Right, I didn'thave anything to offer them.
And he did this with a lot, of,a lot of young, young guys and
girls like saying, like, what doyou want to do?
Um, how can I invest in you asa leader?
And, looking back, I'm like itwas a, it was an extreme act of
selflessness, yeah, yeah, um,and so I had my career to thank
(11:57):
him for yeah, so that's, that'sexciting, and yeah we?
Speaker 2 (12:01):
I know we've talked a lot over the years about about
the key fundamental things thatcan bring about peace building.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Can you speak to some of that um, yeah, so um, I
think the the key that you haveto start with is that these
principles do not change basedon your context.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
People look at me and they're like this guy's been to
all these countries andDonald's work and blah, blah,
blah.
Right, but like there's nothingthat I do in the Democratic
Republic of Congo that you can'tdo here in Northwest Arkansas
when it comes to peace buildingand conflict resolution.
Right, because we are all human.
Yes, the concepts remain thesame.
Yes, um, and actually I I havea story about that.
(12:50):
If, if you tell, yeah I'mbeleaguering the stories.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Yeah, this is what it's all about, so fast forward,
uh, several years.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
I, I um that moment of investing right now.
Now we've started a few, a fewprograms and I found myself in
the democratic Republic of theCongo.
Um, and I had made a plan to gothere and we had advertised it
on our website that I was going,but it was just to a few
(13:25):
followers, somehow.
A group of former childcombatants found out that we
were coming to the DRC and theysaid you're coming to where we
are, would you come listen to usabout our mission?
We are former child combatants.
And they had left the armedgroups and they had started
(13:46):
their own program demobilizingand reintegrating children from
from the groups.
And I was like, yes, I will, Iwill listen to you, yes.
And so that was like 48 hoursbefore we were supposed to leave
, 24 hours before we weresupposed to leave, they said we
have told the armed groups aboutyou coming.
They want to meet with you too.
Oh, wow, groups about youcoming.
(14:08):
They want to meet with you too.
Oh, wow, yeah, what like?
Why?
Why would you?
So now pause there, like, inhindsight, as a professional
like you have to meet with armedgroups if you're going to build
peace.
Right, true, you do.
But as a young guy I'm like Ididn't, I didn't know that and
it was very intimidating.
Oh, you can imagine thingsother.
Yeah, and so we, we showed upand we got into a toyota land
cruise or whatever.
It was, four by four to go wayout into um kind of a rural area
(14:32):
.
Um, that was fairly and stillis fairly notorious for armed
group action, right.
Um and uh, we, we drove out andour vehicle got stuck in some
mud and we had gone down areally kind of notorious road
where, if the sun was to go downon that road, it would turn
(14:55):
into a really bad situation.
You don't want to be on thatroad at night, but to move ahead
was to go on foot into the bushlike into this very rural area
and at this point kind of like alot of that uncertainty and
that ignorance and that anxietyabout the area that I'd never
been to, at this point kind ofcame to a point.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
And.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
I started to not panic by any means, but just get
nervous.
What's going to happen withthis?
And where am I?
And what am I doing?
Like, why did I not take a jobas a zookeeper, or like which?
By the way, zookeepers areamazing, um, uh, but oftentimes
they don't have to deal with, um, armed groups.
And so, all of a sudden, peoplejust started coming out of this
(15:43):
tall grass out of nowhere.
I don't know where they'recoming from.
It was women in brightlycolored Congolese dresses and
men who had on like sport coatsand like muck boots rubber boots
, yeah, and then I, you know,it's like, again, I assumed the
worst, right, because now I'mafraid, and stuff.
And really, without sayinganything at all to me or asking
(16:04):
for anything, they just startedto rock our vehicle back and
forth, um push, and then throwhay under the the wheels and
rocks under the wheels, and allof a sudden, somebody yelled
something in the local dialectand and the driver stomped on
the gas and the truck popped outof the mud and we were on our
way.
Wow, right, and and it.
It was in that moment that Ialmost felt ashamed.
(16:26):
I'm like, why was I so afraid,right?
What did I think was going tohappen?
And why did I think that thesepeople would do anything other
than help me?
Right, and that is another bigpoint in my life where it's like
it occurred to me that nomatter where you go in the world
, no matter how far away quote,unquote someplace feels you will
never not be around humanbeings.
(16:46):
And we went on to meet with thearmed group leaders and we've
been there ever since,demobilizing both combatants and
child combatants.
It's been 10 years now we'vebeen working there.
And so, to get to your question,the number one thing is, when
you're working with conflictresolution and peace building in
(17:09):
your own context is, first ofall, remember that you're
working with humans and thinkabout how you yourself would
respond in the situation thatyou are attempting to resolve or
to impact.
Are attempting to resolve or toimpact, whether you're one of
the combatants in the situationor whether you're a third party
(17:30):
mediator.
You should be able, in somerespect, to empathize with what
they're going through.
In many respects, like I'mnever going to know what it's
like to be a child combatant.
Ever, no matter how much Istudy it, I will never know what
it feels like to feel that kindof hopelessness and abandonment
, et cetera.
But I try, you know, like I, II try to empathize.
And the same goes when I have afight with my wife.
(17:52):
I try to put my myself in mywife's shoes and think what if
I'm having a deal with this jerk?
you know, and and he's, he's ina bad mood, right, Um.
And the second thing then, onceyou've dealt dealt with your
the need to empathize as much aspossible, when it's possible,
is to, um, to listen deeply,deeply, deeply and I don't mean
(18:13):
here, I mean listen, uh, to whatthey're saying.
And after you've listened andyou've patiently taken in the
information, then then start tothink, yeah, about what you've
heard, yes, right, because mygoodness, if you're not, if
you're not allowing, yourself tohear everything before then
start to think yeah about whatyou've heard.
Yes, right, because, my goodness, if you're not, if you're not
allowing yourself to heareverything before you start to
think and formulate, you havestopped listening.
Um, and I know this sounds kindof like cliche in a way, but
(18:35):
like it's at the heart of whatwe do, because it's so darn hard
yeah, it's very hard toactually do it.
And then, um, then take actionat that point.
Then then, once you'veprocessed the information, give
it a try, try to solve it, yeah,and then, lastly, after you've
tried to solve it, reflect onyour actions.
And we call it in our fieldit's called reflective versus
(18:59):
reflexive action, wherereflection you kind of think
about what you did, butreflexivity is then adjusting
your behavior and trying itagain.
And one of my favorite peacebuilders and a colleague of mine
at GMU, at George Mason, susanAllen, um, dr Susan Allen, she
says and then just keep showingup, because it will draw that
(19:21):
cycle of listen, think, act,reflect, listen, think, act,
reflect.
We'll wear you out, but you gotto keep showing up.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
You know, as you're talking and sharing.
First of all, thank you forsharing the story, but I think
about some of the things we justdo in our everyday work, and
there are so many human thingsthat occur in the world that are
either parallel or they're soclose to being similar but yet
different.
So, for example, we work withpeople all the time who are just
(19:51):
you know, they're in theirenvironment, they're in their
work environment or theircommunity environment, and we
have these times where we don'tlisten first or we judge based
upon the way that person looks,because we might be fearful of
them.
And so one of the things we talkabout frequently is that in
order to move beyond thosewhether they're biases or those
(20:14):
fears first thing we have to dois we have to listen and we have
to spot a difference, thatwhere they may be different than
us.
And once we do that, then wecan figure out how can we have,
how can we adjust if they'redifferent from us, to have a
better engagement to whetherit's introducing ourselves or
working with them.
And then we have to do once wehave to start that it's not
(20:37):
always going to go so well, sowe have to keep trying and
getting better at it.
Each time it's the same as ifwe're.
If I want to go and I haven'tworked out for a while, and
occasionally that happens I haveto get back in it and I have to
reteach my body even to go dothose things.
Yeah, that's right.
And then, on our side, too, thelast element we talked about,
after you keep trying, is yousometimes just got to take a
(20:58):
step back and laugh, becausemost of these things that we
deal with, often they're allmanageable, but people think
they're insurmountable at times.
You're managing a differenttype in a more critical
environment, but they're stillto your point.
People yeah, that's right, andit's the same things that can
(21:19):
occur there.
So I really it's kind ofconnecting that in there a
little bit about, wow, you'redoing this.
Dangerous at times were also,but you're doing it because you
are compelled to do it, becauseyou're passionate about it,
because it makes a difference.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Yeah, so I love that part of it yeah, and I, as I was
listening to you, I again asimilar thought.
These are the fundamentals ofinfluence.
They are the fundamentals ofconflict resolution yeah whether
you're in a war-torn area andmeeting with armed combatants or
you're at work.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
There's a lot of similarity in that approach.
Now, one of the things you'vementioned in previous
conversations with us is thatproviding economic opportunities
for some of the young men whowould choose to go into the
armed combatants.
And young women and young women, yes, that are choosing to go
into that.
(22:14):
Can you speak to that a littlebit, because I think that's also
really very applicable fordomestic?
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, without a doubt .
No matter where you go in theworld, young people are seeking
sources of respect yes, yes.
Viable sources, yeah,sustainable, yes um, and and you
know, I I have to be reallycareful with the word choice
when it comes to a minor in inan armed combat situation like
(22:43):
it, no matter, no matter howmuch of a choice it appears uh,
if, if this is a, if this issomebody under the age of 18,
they've been coerced.
Yeah right, um.
And so, generally speaking, thenot generally speaking, I would
say definitely the.
The theme there is, whetheryou're in the united states or
(23:05):
you're in the drc, or you're inthe DRC, or you're in
Afghanistan, wherever, if youare living a life where you
reach a certain age and youstart to realize that the cards
that you've been dealt arelikely not going to be
sufficient for the goals thatsociety tells you are necessary
(23:27):
for your success and yourrespect, you are going to start
looking for alternatives tothose cards.
Yeah Right, and in the DRC andin other places where child
combatants um are a uh, presentphenomenon, um, the, the
societal expectations,especially of young men, but
(23:48):
also of young women, butespecially of young men, is to
say, in order to be a man, youare going to need to get married
, you're going to need to have ajob, you need to be able to
provide for yourself.
But also a lot of young peoplewill look around and say, man,
I'm hungry, I don't have accessto medicine, I can't afford
education.
And so all these systems thatsay here's how you rise
(24:08):
legitimately, through education,through getting married,
through society they don't haveaccess to.
And then along comes you knowtheir cousin or their friend or
just, or just a random armedgroup member and says you can
find respect and sustainabilityat the other end of this AK 47.
Right, are you going to take it?
They're, they're given, they'regiven the option to to take up
(24:29):
arms and to to become a part ofan armed group that says if you
join our armed group, you willfind respect, you will find food
, you will find what you need tosucceed.
Um, that, that type ofphenomenon you find right here
in the United States.
I mean, I spent a good portionof my childhood in in in Memphis
, tennessee, and, like um, therewas gang culture there.
It's the same thing, you knowgangs come along and say, hey,
(24:51):
you have a place with us, youbelong with us.
Uh, violence is a part of ouridentity, but that's how we gain
respect, et cetera, et cetera.
So it's not unique to waraffected countries by having
some grind.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
And faster than anything.
Um, as you think about yourwork and and what lies ahead in
the future, what are some of thebiggest goals that you have,
Jeez?
Speaker 1 (25:18):
I number one.
I really want to equip othersto do what I've done.
I'm only 40, but like I feelolder, like like 40 feels other
than 39, yeah, in a way that 39doesn't necessarily support 38,
um, and I'm realizing that liketo to truly make a broader
(25:43):
impact is is not to get super,super, super good at what you do
and and procure all this moneyand and, but it's to empower
other people too.
Right, cause the more peoplethat think about peace, um, the
more peace there will be.
Um, so I'm, I'm, I'm working ashard as I can, um, to ensure
that anybody that comes to methat says I want to do what you
do, that I open up as many doorsas possible for them to do that
(26:05):
.
It's why I love teaching, it'swhy we have just a litany of
interns at Innovations inPeacebuilding and at GMU.
But professionally, we've gotgoals that say that there would
be no country in the worldexperiencing civil war or armed
(26:25):
group action that doesn't have apresence, that doesn't have a
professional presence from ourorganizations in it.
Like, I would really like tohave players in these, in these
spaces, trying to solve theseproblems.
Um, and it's such a bigquestion I I really like allow
myself to think about that,because it's always like today's
(26:48):
problems are predominant, right, um, but I I also think that,
um, I would really and we'reworking on this at george mason
um, I really want to change theway that people think about um,
the intersection of business andpeace and government policies
(27:10):
and peace, where a lot of times,when you think about peace work
, it's like it's this ngo orit's this charity that's doing
this thing over here, right, but?
But a lot of the answers, a lotof the sustainable and scalable
answers for peace building, Ithink, lie in um, in the ways
that a lot of powerful forcescould slightly change their
behavior, and actually whatwe're arguing is that it doesn't
(27:34):
just have to be for benevolence, it doesn't just have to be
that it's the right thing to do,that like.
There's a lot of examples outthere that show that peace is
actually profitable.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
And that if you could turn an area away from conflict
, that businesses would actuallythrive, if they could even
measure in the medium and longterm.
And so that's one thing.
It's a big thing when you talkabout, like, what do you want to
do in the future is tonormativize the idea that peace
and stability is actually reallybeneficial for people that have
(28:11):
access to existing powerstructures.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
And that makes a lot of sense.
As I think about that, there isstuff that has been written
about the fact that where dobusinesses, where do they see
growth, in what countries in thefuture?
And it's not unusual to hearthat growth will come in Africa
at some point, and it'shappening now for sure.
(28:36):
And so that's part of thateconomic opportunity of bringing
that growth there.
We should be able to helpfurther move people away from
violence more and towardsbuilding building a career, if
you would say, and then I wouldimagine education will follow.
(28:56):
That be more higher educationopportunities for a broader
spectrum of people.
Would that be true?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
yeah, I think that it's like I go back to your
question, patty, about um, theeconomics.
Yeah, I kind of got sidetrackedon like respect etc.
But like um, it doesn't take awhole lot for for a young man or
young woman who would otherwisepick up um a weapon and go into
armed groups to, to have accessto self-sustainability right, a
(29:24):
couple hundred bucks, yes, toput it through vocational
training and they become abarber instead of a fighter.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
I think, thinking on large scales like this, though,
ken, it's going to take thecollective action of local
governments, local powerstructures, local businesses way
, way more than outsiders Okay.
Structures local businesses way, way more than outsiders Okay,
right.
I think there's like this kindof this neocolonial mindset that
(29:51):
we have to get out of asprofessionals that think that we
possess the answers.
Indeed, we, as a professionalpeace practitioner and
strategist, like, yes, I do haveideas and answers, but unless
local people, unless thoseexperiencing conflict, want
peace more than I want it forthem, it will never succeed yeah
(30:13):
, and they have to be the onesthat you facilitate, but they
have to be the ones that come upwith it yeah, I have to be
really careful how I talk aboutthis, because it's it's it's
actually a really like, like hottopic in in terms of like, what
is the role of the outsider?
yes okay, um, and rightly so Iagree.
(30:36):
But, um, there are some whowould argue that if there were
systems and strategies in placefor areas that are experiencing
conflict to solve themselves, itwould yeah, and that's not just
in the DRC, right, that's inhere in the United States.
(30:57):
Here in the United States aswell.
There's like entrenched cyclesof conflict that sometimes it
takes an outsider to come in andbe like have you thought about
it this way?
Right, and that's, I think,like the main purpose of the
outside peace strategist orpeace builder is to bring
networks of ideas and innovationand theories and say have you
(31:17):
thought about it this way?
Right.
But ultimately, what you saidis that unless the ideas for
peace and sustainability comefrom the minds of locals,
they're not going to succeed.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Because it's not me that wakes up thinking every day
about how I'm going to get mynext meal if I don't commit an
act of violence Right, or it'snot me that has to think about
my child who might leave and bekilled tomorrow in an armed
group.
Right Action right.
They are the ones who wake upand think every day about how
they would solve it if theycould.
And so listening to localsabout their ideas for peace and
(31:52):
then running it through oureducation network's experiences
and saying here's how I think wecould accomplish this I think
that's the main role of thepeace builder.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
So you really are playing a role of facilitating.
You're bringing ideas and yetyou're facilitating their
discussion.
Role of the peace builder soyou really are playing a role as
facilitating without bringingideas, and and.
And yet you're facilitatingtheir discussion, which leads to
the development of theapplicable ideas for them and
the adoption I think that'sright, yeah, yeah that's kind of
how we do strategic planning Ican see our firm.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yes, you know, we can't come in and tell you what
to do.
Do you work with humans?
Speaker 2 (32:21):
you work with humans.
Right, you work with humans.
There's a commonality.
Imagine that Right, and yearsago I went to a class offered by
a guy named Bob Pine.
He's retired now, but great,great information, and one of
the things that he said was keywhen you're teaching is create
(32:41):
experiences where people come upwith their own data love it
yeah, and I mean it just stuckwith me.
I was probably 25 nice and I.
I design everything that we doyeah, yeah, the uh do it not,
not to you, but with you.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
100, yeah, not for you, yeah and and I think to add
to that toward goals andmeasures of success that have
been designed by them.
Right, yes, right, it's soimportant, it's really wild,
right.
Yeah, like the things that wethink we need as Americans.
Yeah, even if somebody inanother culture had a billion
(33:17):
dollars, they still wouldn'twant the thing that we want a
lot of times.
Right, it's just not a part,right, and so things that we
oftentimes feel like, well, thiswould be a great measure of
success.
If we're going for, you know,peace in this area, folks are
like, yeah, we don't need that.
Thank you, though.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Yeah, you know, that's very true.
I think the other thing too is,you know, talking about change
A lot of this, we're talkingabout change.
A lot of this we're talkingabout change is it always plays
out the human element of.
I'm going to be a whole lotmore open to change, under two
conditions.
One is I'm creating the change.
It's my idea had something todo, sure.
(33:55):
Or two is that I became and yousaid it, I became part of a
group and I was informed aboutideas, and then I had a voice to
share about what those ideascould be.
Now I'm willing to be an ownerof that change and to help that
change, versus, again to yourpoint of not having a voice and
(34:17):
not being a part of it and justsomeone, whether it's an
organization like ours, cominginto a business from the outside
, or someone coming from theoutside into a country, who's
going to say this, this is whatyou should do, without actually
speaking to them first, whichsounds like that's a whole lot
of frankly devastating examplesto the contrary.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yeah, you know yeah, because one thing that I think
you can like sort of witness inthis is if you come in with the
money, you're going to findsomebody to listen who will
listen to you, right Like, andthat's where it gets super
(35:00):
dangerous.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Because if you know person X, y and person Z, you
know they see that you're goingto pay them and the alternative
is to let their kids go hungry,like they're going to do
whatever you tell them to.
Yeah, but as an outsider, ifyou're not strategizing, it will
almost certainly make thingsworse.
And again, I think it's truehere too.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yeah.
I agree, I agree, certainlymake things worse.
Yeah, um, and again, I thinkit's true here too.
Yeah, I agree, but can youshare a story that that really
was uplifting and sort ofaffirms what you know?
Yeah, I got here at the firstplace wait, uh, what was the
last part?
That affirms why you're doingthis.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Oh my goodness you know what, why, how.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
What brought you here ?
Speaker 1 (35:42):
there was a young.
I tell the story all the time.
There is this young woman.
I'm gonna not say her name,okay, but she is congolese and
if you come to enough of ourevents, you'll, you'll see um
we'll.
We talk about her a lot because,um, she was taken into, uh, the
armed groups in the DRC as achild bride and my understanding
(36:07):
is that her quoting husbanddied and she was given to
another gentleman intersectedwith our program and was we
alongside the locals that wework with, provided a path out
(36:28):
for her and at the time ourprogram was less refined and our
working alongside localcaretakers psychologically,
mental and emotional andphysical health, nutritional
health, new clothes, you know.
(36:50):
They gave her time and herpeers time to adjust right
before going back into hervillage.
The local caretakers there areoutstanding at that.
But then, as our program kickedin, it was now she's back and
we gave her two pregnant goats,um, as we did all the combat the
former combatants, um, andstarted helping her think
(37:13):
through, like, what are yougoing to do with this investment
and what do you want to do withwith the near term of your life
?
And um, so you know she was justa kid and we gave her these
goats and then we left, becausea huge part of what we do is
come in, uh, enact the localstrategy that we partner with,
and then we get out because it's, it's not our place, right,
(37:36):
it's, it's, it's local people'splace.
Um, well, so just sort of notrandomly, but but kind of
randomly, we went back to hervillage, like I guess it was
maybe two and a half, threeyears later and yeah, I don't
know, maybe a year and a half, Ihonestly don't remember it was
a good amount of time.
uh, we found her, like justrandomly, like whoa, hey, whoa,
(38:00):
you've a huge herd of goats.
Like all of a sudden, wow, andit was dozens.
She had just done really well,like she listened to what we,
you know, advised her to do ongoat husbandry.
Then the veterinarian that wepaid to accompany these kids and
their goats was doing a greatjob and she was succeeding.
And we said so what do you donext?
(38:22):
And she said I want to be aseamstress, I want to make
clothing.
And uh, she's like I'm going tosell a couple of my goats to
buy a, uh, sewing machine, right?
So I, you know, I don'tremember if it was it was maybe
like 10, 12 goats that she had.
(38:42):
And I have a rule, y'all, like Idon't interrupt processes when
my emotions get high.
I like you gotta let theprocess play out right.
But for some reason I justcouldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't
and I said, nah, I'm gonna buyyou a sewing machine personally,
not with my organization'smoney.
I just can't.
I can't stand the thought ofyou selling your goats at this
point, like you're, you'resucceeding, you're crushing it.
(39:02):
And I did, bought her a sewingmachine and then, just a few
days later, after we left, um,we got word, uh that she had
decided um to to donate two ofher goats to our organization,
(39:25):
thereby becoming the Africancontinent's first donor to our
organization.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah, and she said I want to give.
I want to give you these goatsso that you can give them to the
next young lady that you findthat has lived out my situation,
so that she can have the sameopportunity that I had.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Wow, what an amazing story, yeah I still get
goosebumps.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Yeah, no, I every time I tell a story, I'd like I
try not to cry, right?
So then this is not the end ofthe story.
So then we yeah, we like passedon the goats and we found
another young lady and it was anamazing thing, right.
So then more time passed, andthis time it was more time than
the previous window, right?
And then again we find ourselfin her village and now she's a
(40:09):
grown woman and she has dozensof goats at this point, like she
is, and my understanding isthat she became one of the most
like powerful not powerful, butlike most influential.
You know, I don't want to usethe term rich, but like well
apportioned individuals in hervillage.
Okay, and she took that sewingmachine that we gave her when
(40:29):
she was still a girl, and shedid so well with it that she
opened up a seamstress shop thatagain she said I want more
young ladies to have theopportunity that I've had, and
so she turned it into apart-time sewing school for
vulnerable young ladies, and soshe introduced us to all these
girls that she was teaching howto sew and she showed us their
products.
And again she's just crushingit.
(40:52):
Like every time I learn abouther, it's like.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Because it's not just that her life improved, it's
that her life improved and herheart was oriented in such a way
that she wanted others to sharein her success.
And so, um, at our last gala,um, we actually had a ton of her
products that we gave away toour donors, um, that she made
for us oh wow, that's reallyreally cool wow yeah, no.
(41:15):
So it's like that.
It's that one great story, onelife.
You know, like if if we spentour entire lives such that one
young lady would leave thesegroups, would it be worth it?
Yeah, and the answer isabsolutely it would, because you
never know what that nextcatalyzing moment might be.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
Yeah, she's creating opportunities and safety for
others.
That's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Yeah, wonderful story , thank you for sharing.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
Yeah, wonderful story.
Thank you for sharing, yeah,but I want to I don't know if I
may like you know these stories,like they're great, and I think
that when I first started this,this is what I hoped my life
would matter for.
And who knows what's going tohappen in the next 20, 30 years
of doing more of this right,what's going to happen in the
(42:04):
next 20, 30 years of doing moreof this right, but like, if, if
there's people listening to thispodcast, like y'all like you
don't have to start an NGO andwork in war-affected countries
to be a peace builder, um, andand ultimately, like the
greatest thing that we can do isto be peaceful people, yes,
like your example, the thingsthat you choose to do today as a
peace builder with those thatyou are interacting with, that
(42:25):
is the most important thing youcan do, period.
And if you can't get that partof your life in line, don't feel
like you then have to dosomething that's even more
challenging where you try toaffect other environments.
Um, make sure that you arerefining yourself as well, right
, and y'all like I'm not I'm notthere yet.
Like I've been a quote, unquotepeace builder for 20 years,
(42:49):
right, and I'm still not there.
And I and unless I become asaint before I die, I it's it's
likely that I won't Right, butbut let's, I just want to
encourage your listeners like tonot forget that, that part of
it that if we could allintrospect about our own
behavior, peace building as aprofession wouldn't be um a
viable option, because yeah yeah, yeah that makes total sense.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
I think, um, as I hear that you know, our tagline
is really it's exploring goodconnections in life and work and
communities, and the workyou're doing is connecting.
You're connecting to groups ofpeople and you're helping them
make connections, and I justfind it to be this.
It is to your point and I thinkit's very well said.
(43:37):
It's something that shouldconvey everywhere, regardless of
where you're at, to be able towork towards this in order to
create good lives, create goodexperiences for people and give
them the opportunities.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Yeah, and as we kind of think about wrapping up, this
has been amazing.
Can you share with ourlisteners and viewers things to
consider when they are findingthemselves really wanting to
make an impact?
Either in their community oroutside of their community.
I think what you just shared isa really great first step.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
What are some of the other things that you can
encourage them to be doing andthinking?
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So I think.
Secondly, like when you turnoutward to do right, I think we
have to start with the B Firstbe peaceful yes right.
Then then start thinking aboutthe dude, and.
And one of my first things Itell all my students I teach at
george mason um university, Ialso teach at george washington
university all my students I sayokay, the first thing we have
(44:39):
to consider is augustinphilosophy.
St Augustine, st Augustine,however you want to pronounce it
what he taught us is philosophyof the good right that.
His contention was that there'sno such thing as an evil person
.
There are evil acts, yes, butevil people, yes, uh, but evil
(45:02):
people, uh.
He.
He challenged um and and he, uh, he.
He challenges us to think aboutum, the, the, the math, like
kind of the algebra of, of howpeople consider their actions,
and and and, even something thatappears to be something that,
excuse me, even something thatis a bad action.
(45:23):
We have to think about whypeople chose that action, um,
and he even gives this exampleof um attempting for himself to
remember a time where he didsomething that was just purely
evil, purely wrong, where hecouldn't ascribe any anything
good to his choice.
(45:43):
And he said aha, there was atime where I jumped over a stone
wall with my friends and Istole a bunch of pears off of a
pear tree.
And then we jumped back overthe stone wall and ran away, and
it was a purely evil act,because we weren't hungry, we
didn't need the pears, we didn'tsell the pears, we didn't give
the pears away.
In fact, my understanding aboutthe conclusion is that they
(46:04):
just wasted them, like theythrew them into a field and left
Right, yeah, and then, if mymemory serves me correct, it was
actually in his recantationsthat he wrote later that he said
no, I was wrong.
Even then, I was wrong, thatwhat I was looking for, the good
(46:25):
that I was seeking in that act,was fellowship, that what my
heart wanted was to feel inunion with my friends.
And so, yes, the act was evil,but the good that I uncovered
was I wanted to feel close to myfriends, right?
So scrutinizing the way that weconclude about how we're
judging other people's behaviorsright is, in my opinion, the
(46:46):
first thing that we have to do.
Right again, this is notcondoning bad actions, it is not
telling you that you shouldn'tjudge things that are people are
choosing to do poorly, but whatwe have to interrogate is why
do we think they're doing that?
And then start there, right?
So that's where you go next,and then from there, it depends
(47:09):
on how engaged you want to be asa peace builder, right, but
investing your time intolistening to situations,
studying situations, investingyour time into finding out what
are the basic human needs thatpeople are perhaps missing?
Because it's not, you.
Think about Maslow's hierarchyof needs.
It's not just food, water,shelter, protection, right.
(47:30):
Think about self-actualization,think about mental health,
think about connections andfamily and community and the
sense of belonging.
Think about identity andcultural belonging, right.
It's at that point you canstart to discover if you want to
be a peace builder, finding outwhat it is that is leading
people to feel a sense ofdeprivation.
(47:54):
This is, in peace theory, theidea of relative deprivation.
This person has a thing that Idon't have and therefore I'm
going to take it A lot of timescan be explained in that that
sort of like analysis of whatpeople need, and you can
discover those needs bylistening, respect, love,
(48:14):
belonging.
Yeah, it's just asking andstudying and thinking.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Fantastic.
Sorry that got a little heady.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
No, so compelling, so thinking yeah, yeah, fantastic,
sorry that got a little heady,no, so compelling, so compelling
, I love that True.
Yeah, anything else you want toshare before we wrap it up?
Speaker 1 (48:31):
No, like I said, I want to invest personally in
people.
I hope that our listeners dotoo.
We offer a lot in the ways ofhelping people orient in this
field, so check outinnovationsandpeacebuildingorg,
google Applied Peace StrategyCenter for Applied Peace
(48:52):
Strategies at George MasonUniversity.
There's lots of ways tointeract with what we're doing.
If they want to donate toeither organization, they're
both tax-adaptable organizations, but money is only the
beginning of how people cansupport what we do.
So, connect with us, find outmore.
We'd love to have you along forthe ride, and viewers and
(49:14):
listeners.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
We will have that information on our
4BarsPodcastcom website in ourresources section, so you'll be
able to find the informationthat you're mentioning and any
other resources that we haverelated to that.
Speaker 3 (49:30):
Great and we want to thank you again, dr Charles
Davidson, for being here Again.
Wonderful reality of whatyou're impacting the folks who
are all part of this and othersaround the world.
So thank you, yeah, Thanks forhaving me, thank you.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Thank you and listeners thanks.
We'll see you next time.
The 4 Bars Podcast has beenbrought to you by Edges Inc.
A growth advisory firm based inBentonville, arkansas.
I founded the company in 2001.
Speaker 3 (49:56):
Edges promotes growth , people, companies and ideas.
Our team collaboration tool,called Interface Methods, is a
basis for teams to work togethermore collaboratively,
understand each other and acceptdifferences and address
challenges together.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
We also started a non-profit called Unform your
Bias.
We teach kids and their adultinfluencers how to utilize
storytelling as a means toreduce bias in the world.
We hope you'll check us out,subscribe to our podcast and
look at our website.
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