August 27, 2025 • 40 mins
Summary
In this episode, Jerry Vinci speaks with Marcy Sagel, founder of MSA Interiors, about the transformative power of thoughtful design in senior living. They discuss how design can enhance tenant satisfaction, support aging in place, and drive business results. Marcy shares her journey in interior design, the launch of her new venture Designer Bank aimed at bridging knowledge gaps in the industry, and the importance of creating spaces that feel like home for older adults. The conversation also touches on the evolution of senior living design, common missteps in development, and the significance of measuring design impact on occupancy and retention rates. Marcy emphasizes the need for innovative design solutions that prioritize dignity, functionality, and connection for seniors.
Learn More:
- Connect with Marcy Sagel
- Learn more about MSA Interiors
Takeaways
- Thoughtful design can significantly enhance tenant satisfaction.
- The launch of Designer Bank aims to fill knowledge gaps in design education.
- Senior living design should feel residential, not institutional.
- Lighting is crucial for senior living spaces to enhance functionality.
- Design must consider the unique needs of seniors, especially in memory care.
- Common missteps in senior living development include inefficient layouts.
- Designing for dignity is essential in creating senior living environments.
- Innovative technology can improve connectivity for seniors.
- Understanding the end-of-life care needs is vital in senior living design.
- The future of senior living will focus on integrating technology and thoughtful design.
Chapters
00:00 Welcome to From Leads to Leases - A Senior Living Business Podcast
01:37 Marcy Sagel's Interior Design Journey and Vision
03:33 What is Designer Bank?
06:31 Bridging the Knowledge Gap in Design Education
09:33 Transitioning from Residential to Commercial Design
10:46 How Redlining Cabinets Changed the Course of Marcy's Career
13:13 Evolving Senior Living Design
16:24 Enhancing Senior Living Units for Comfort
18:06 Measuring Design Impact on ROI
21:05 Research and Community Input when Planning Interior Design
24:22 Common Missteps in Senior Living Development
25:55 Designing for the End Game
29:53 Understanding Long-Term Care Needs
33:25 Design Elements for Dignity and Safety
35:51 Innovations in Senior Living Interiors
Keywords
senior living, interior design, community design, aging in place, thoughtful design, commercial design, senior care, design impact, memory care, design innovations
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're initially as an independent person moving into a
community, you're picking something based on design.
And I try to go out there and tell people really need to look
at the end game because what arethose services?
You need to look at all of thosedifferent things that could be a
problem. So you just have to look at
things a little bit differently than just, oh, is it a beautiful
community. What if your community's
(00:20):
interior design wasn't just about aesthetics, but was the
key to increasing occupancy, reducing turnover, and creating
a real sense of home for older adults?
Today's guest has spent over 30 years proving just how powerful
thoughtful design can be. Welcome to From Leeds to Leases
ACCR Growth podcast that helps senior living providers
(00:41):
transform their complex challenges into opportunities.
Listen in for stories from industry leaders, innovative
strategies and insights, and with our expertise, learn how to
increase occupancy faster, Guaranteed.
Welcome back to another episode from Lisa Lisa's, the podcast
that dives deep into the senior living and senior care
(01:02):
industries, bringing you insights, strategies, and
stories from the experts at the forefront of innovation,
leadership, and care. I'm your host, Jerry Vinci, CEO
of CCR Growth, and for those of you who don't know about us, CCR
Growth is a full service marketing and growth agency that
is exclusive to the senior living industry.
And through this podcast, I'm here to guide you through the
evolving landscape of senior care, exploring the innovations,
(01:25):
strategies, and leadership insights that are shaping the
future of the industry. So whether you're a provider, a
caregiver, or an industry leader, this show is here to
help you make informed decisionsand create meaningful impact.
So today I'm joined by Marcy Sagal, Founder and Principal of
MSA Interiors. With over 3 decades of
experience in commercial interior design, Marcy's LED
(01:46):
projects across multifamily, student housing and senior
living. Her firm is known for
transforming spaces in a way that not only looks beautiful,
but actually enhances tenant satisfaction, supports aging in
place, and drives real business results like accelerated lease
ups and increased NOI. Marcy's approach blends smart
design with empathy and strategy, and I think you'll
(02:09):
walk away from this conversationrethinking what design can
actually do. So Marcy, welcome to the show.
I'm so glad to have you here. Jerry, thank you so much for
having me. I'm excited to be on your show.
Thank you. Absolutely.
It's a pleasure talking with creative individuals.
I always like to start with the the origins story.
I think that's always interesting.
What first drew you to interior design, and what's kept you
(02:29):
inspired through the decades? So when I was young and a little
girl, I had an incredible sense of fashion and style and would
have different interior designers working on her house,
some good, some not so good. And so she would always, I'm an
only daughter, I have two brothers.
And so she would always ask my opinion and I would add my kind
(02:53):
of opinion and I'd look at things that were presented and
started to formulate bigger opinions as I got a little bit
older and was a little bit more versed into how design worked.
And so I helped design a lot of our house as things move
forward. And I felt like this was
definitely a passion for me froma very, very young age.
(03:17):
And I liked it so much that, youknow, I decided to start my
career in that. And so I studied graphic design
and interior design and just howthose two kind of connected for
me were a very large part of howI got into this business.
And I know you recently launcheda second venture Designer bank.
Can you share the vision behind it and how it fits into your
(03:41):
mission as a mentor? Sure.
So you know, when you own a company and you are the
principal and you are growing your business, you learn a lot
about yourself as an employer. You learn a lot about yourself
as a design leader. And over the years, not only are
you growing in those two categories, but you're trying to
(04:03):
grow your employees. And so there's a lot of training
involved and a lot of, you know,what I call a good, bad and
indifferent things that I've done over the years.
And so you grow these processes and you figure out how to work
most efficiently and how to makepeople feel comfortable in their
job. And you train them in different
categories of being a designer. With that, we work on very large
(04:25):
jobs. And what I found was a lot of
designers have only one aspect of design and may not have all
of the aspects that we're looking for.
And so we had to train people nomatter how much experience they
had. And what we found was that we
were basically training people over the over and over and over
again with the same kind of expertise that we wanted in each
(04:48):
of our designers. And so I thought there was
something missing. What I found was that we have
some what I call good Nuggets tooffer other designers out there.
And we decided that we were going to start doing these
training modules that any designer, architect or person
wanting to learn in this industry could learn from.
(05:09):
And so we were doing 30 minute modules in what we would call
beginner, intermediate and advanced courses that would be
very, very inexpensive that commercial designers or anyone
that was a designer that wanted to learn how to be a commercial
designer could get from a lot ofour training.
And so I've been working on scripting currently and the
(05:29):
scripting is the most important part of these modules.
And then everyone in my office is going to participate in these
learning modules and we're goingto launch them and they'll be
available to anyone that wants them.
And I would say probably in the next three to six months, we'll
be launching some of them, but we hope to be launching 37 of
them. And people can pick and choose
(05:50):
what categories. For example, we want to teach
people how to render and we do all of our own rendering in
house. It's fast, it's quick, it's
very, very high level. And so we want other people to
learn how to do that. And so, so rendering would have
sort of a beginner, an intermediate and advanced course
in rendering. And by the end, you should know
(06:10):
quite a bit about rendering and can kind of take it from there.
And then eventually when we're doing these online, we hope to
eventually have some in person trainings around the country
that we can also launch and havepeople sign up and come in
person. So that's kind of where we're
we're going with Designer Bank. I love it.
That's so cool. Thanks.
(06:31):
Why do you think there's such a knowledge gap for people?
Is the education system failing when it comes to training or is
it this on the job training thatsomebody just has to acquire so.
Commercial designers work in whatever the architectural firms
work in. And right now the larger the
jobs, the more the architecturalfirms are working.
They work in what is Revit. It's an, you know, an Autodesk,
(06:54):
it was CAD and now it's Revit. So everyone's working in Revit.
Revit's expensive and it takes alot of training.
And even if you've trained forever in Revit, you're never
going to know completely all there is to know about Revit
because it's, it's just got so many levels to it.
And for designers, there's a lotof work around.
(07:15):
That's what I like to call it. Where architects, it's been
really designed for architects, but for designers it's really
got a lot of workarounds. So we're going to be talking
about a lot of that in the training.
We're going to be giving the gaps that there are for interior
designers. When you go to school, you don't
necessarily learn how to be a commercial designer.
(07:38):
You learn what I call basics only.
There's only a handful of designer schools out there that
are training people in Revit andtraining them well so that they
can come out and work in it efficiently.
And so we're going to just fill the gaps that there are out of
school. And not only that, if you're an
architect and you're doing into your design, there are a lot of
(07:59):
different scenarios that you're going to learn through the
training module. So it's really for advanced
architects, it's for beginner interior designers that want to
learn how to be a commercial designer and filling those needs
sort of with some training. I know exactly what you mean.
I mean, one of my undergraduate degrees was in graphic design.
(08:19):
It was very different. What you learn in the program in
school versus what you learn in the field.
And whatever your agency is working on at the time is what
you become proficient in. So that makes sense.
Yeah. And I think, you know, I've
guest spoken at a lot of universities that teach sort of
like a master's in real estate. And you know, you're working
(08:40):
with a lot of developers in those courses that have never
ever dealt with design. And basically my course is
always to teach them how to select things that are not what
they necessarily like, but are what's right for the
architecture, what's right for, you know, that audience that's
going to be leasing from you, let's say in multi family.
(09:01):
So I kind of give them what I would do for any client.
We give them inspirations and webreak them up into groups in the
class and we have them as a group understand what their
competitors have visually. And so they can see what they
have visually for the amenity and for the units.
And then we have them pick what might be best for them for that
(09:23):
market to rent. And, and it's really kind of
fascinating. And by the end, I think that
they have a good understanding of how to select inspirations
and direction of where the building's going to go.
A lot of people too, they start in residential design and then
they eventually, some people pivot like you pivoted into the
commercial space. What pulled you towards the
commercial space, and specifically what pulled you
(09:44):
towards senior living? So it's a really good question.
And the answer to that is, is that I love residential design
because it's so creative, but commercial design is, it's a
knowledge base and you have to have skills that you have to
learn along the way, especially for senior living, there are
(10:06):
things that you need to know about materials and adaptability
and different needs that seniorshave.
And it's different than any other type of commercial design.
So when I did residential, I love it, but I'm dealing with
individual clients is a challenge in itself.
And as as much as I find it creative, I really prefer
(10:30):
dealing on the corporate side orthe development side because I
feel like the ability to design a whole building is a lot more
effective and a lot more challenging and a lot more
interesting from an outcome for me anyway.
So that was definitely why I went into commercial design.
Last time we spoke to, you were telling me a story about how you
save a client hundreds of thousands of dollars by
(10:52):
redlining cabinetry specs. How did you How did that change
the course of your career? Yeah, well, I had a mentor who
was an architect who brought me into a very, very large project,
got me started in the multifamily arena, and he kind
of guided me along the process. And now the reason he he came to
(11:12):
me was because I knew cabinetry.And so I had a lot of experience
in cabinetry was helping a lot of I was working with a lot of
cabinetry lines to help them design what they were producing
for their audience. And I took a look at his
drawings and I said, well, wow, why would anybody put this?
(11:33):
If this door's too tall, it's going to warp.
It's over what we would call thenatural height of a door for
cabinetry. And if it's made of wood, it's
going to 100% warp. And we don't need this many
cabinetry for rental. And there's way too many
drawers. Drawers fail.
It's the first thing that fails in cabinetry, especially when
you're getting a lot of wear andtear like in, you know, rental
(11:56):
units and that kind of thing. And it just didn't make any
sense. So he's like, well, why don't
you just redline it for me and tell me what you would cut out?
And I said, well, I'm going to tell you what I'm going to cut
out from a price perspective, and then I'm going to make a
list of wear and tear, what we should try to take out and have
less of. We don't need, you know, it's
(12:16):
not like a residential home where you need to have, you
know, 20 or 30 drawers in a kitchen.
You know, we need to have utensil drawers.
We need to have daily cutlery drawers.
We need to have, you know, different types of drawers
depending on, you know, high, how high level it is.
So let's cut some of those out because they're going to fail
(12:38):
and that's what we're going to end up having to fix.
So he listened. It saved him hundreds of
thousands of dollars in cabinetry right across the
board. And, and he's like, I want to do
this again because I had no ideawe can save that amount of
money. And and then we could use that
money to basically we ended up putting a Chihuly fixture in the
(12:59):
lobby that we saved from the cabinetry.
So there's so many different ways you can save in the units
themselves and still give in a really high level unit without
wasting money on things that youdon't necessarily need so.
I love that. I love that.
I'm curious to what are some of the key ways senior living
(13:19):
design needs to evolve beyond the institutional look that a
lot of places still carry today?So people want to walk in and
feel like they're in a high level residence.
You know, you want to walk in and you want to see high level
furniture, high level finishes. You want to see a bar area, you
want to see a cooked kitchen that everybody might be able to
(13:41):
share, A quiet reading area, a fireplace area, lots of
different nooks that you can go to.
A gaming area, a area for peopleto play games, an area for
people to, you know, have like amovie night or an area for
people to gather for a Sunday service.
There's so many different thingsthat you need, but we make it
(14:03):
feel more residential. We don't make it feel like it's
an old school health, you know, space.
We really give it that residential hotel feel that
makes people feel like they walkin and they go, wow, this is
where I want to be. This feels like me, This is high
level and it has all of these different amenities that I've
(14:23):
never seen even before. And, you know, garden areas,
walking paths, all of those wonderful things that we now do
in senior living that make it a lot more residential feel.
What do you think senior living residents value most in their
environments? So obviously the units are
really, really important. When you're bringing someone in
(14:44):
for their walkthrough tour, their unit is going to be most
important. But you also need to have the
wow factor. And you want people to feel like
they're walking through a space that feels like they'd feel very
comfortable bringing any family members or friends to come and
visit. And the unit got to have that,
you know, space that looks really fantastic, but you also
(15:06):
need it to feel special. And so we make the finishes feel
very special. And we also have a lot of key
factors that we like to do in the units, like, you know,
adding lighting, you know, just basic lighting.
You know, old school, they didn't have any kind of lighting
on the ceiling or fans or any ofthat kind of thing.
(15:27):
You'd walk in and you'd have to put lamps that you actually have
to turn on before you walk in the room.
Well, that's not really great for seniors.
That's not easy, you know, I have a hard time seeing
sometimes. So I want to walk into a room
and the light comes on and or I hit a switch and all of them
come on. Those things really make a big
difference. I want to feel like if I want to
(15:47):
leave my door open, I can leave my door open and not have to
feel so shut in and by myself. And so there's all these
different things that you can add to the units that make them
feel a lot more special. Adding TV areas and not only the
bedroom, but also in the living room areas as well, wherever you
may want to put it. You know, let's say you want to
sit at your kitchen table and you want to be able to watch the
(16:10):
news in the morning while you'rehaving your coffee that you
don't have to go back into the living room to do that.
So just really being more thoughtful and and more
directive with with what you're going to do for each of the
individual units is super important.
I would think too, from an operational standpoint, you're
saving on energy costs and you're also saving on safety
issues too. If somebody has mobility
(16:32):
challenges and they're having toget up and down just to just to
turn on a lighter to something in their unit, I think that's
another added value. Yeah.
And we used to always put carpetin bedrooms and carpets kind of
a sometimes it can be a trip andfall for a senior.
And so, you know, the flooring is just, you know, new, new
lines of flooring that we're putting in now and senior
(16:53):
living. And it's just so many new ways
of technology that we're adding to each of these vending
machines so that, you know, people don't have to necessarily
run to, you know, let's say Acvsto go get just basic things like
maybe a Tylenol or a band aids or just simple things that they
(17:15):
may just want to have, you know,available to them.
And again, I'm not saying it's Tylenol or band aids, but using
that as an example for, you know, just basic things that you
would get at a pharmacy that youdon't have to run out for.
So just adding those kinds of, you know, things we have, you
know, sometimes we do like a loaner, like we can loan a
(17:37):
vacuum cleaner or a, you know, cleaning equipment or those
kinds of things. If you want to do your space
yourself and you know, you want to clean your unit and have it
fresh and you don't want to havesomebody come in and do it for
you. There's things that, you know,
we have all these new sort of technology things that we can
do, a loaner, you know, library or whatever you want to do for
(17:59):
books or online. All of those things Add all
kinds of interest to any of the senior living things that we do.
One of the things that you talked about was design driving
ROI. How is that measured?
Is that typically just, you know, we redesigned the space
and since redesigning the space we've seen more lease UPS or our
(18:20):
conversion rate is higher or ourretention rate is better than it
was before. How are you measuring that?
Or how are they measuring that? So if it's a new build, it's
obviously you're, you're measuring from lease UPS from
zero to wherever it goes. And we look at it in the time
frame. So they in their development
plans and financials, they have a period of time that they want
(18:41):
to be at a certain percent leased up and we typically are
way ahead of their lease up schedule.
And I get, I followed that because I find it very exciting
to make sure that we're hitting the mark on the design and of
course the price point and everything else all plays into
it. But we do follow it and we like
to kind of track where we are. But you know, you're also
looking at for any of the renovations, you know, a lot of
(19:05):
them are dated and you know, different ownerships feel
different needs in different, you know, communities to either
update the higher end communities because they're
making more dollars per unit or even keeping some of their lower
end properties updated because you know, they, they need to
keep it looking fresh. And you're, you've got so much
competition out there. So all of these different things
(19:26):
are all trackable. They're trackable by percentages
of dollars and percentages of time and percentages of how full
the, you know, that particular senior living community fills
up. In your experience, too, have
there been certain features or adaptable spaces that have
translated into better ROI? Typically, on average, yeah.
(19:48):
Every time we install one of these fountains, we get more
movements. I would say there's not one
thing in particular. It's sort of a lot of things and
the units and the amenities are really both equally important.
Some people are really just looking at the units, while
other people want the whole community and the activities and
everything else that are going to play into it to be a part of
(20:10):
their decision making. And you know, some of the
companies that run these programs do a better job at the
daily activities and keep it incredibly full with an activity
director that is really engaged.Age and looking for new and
important things. So that that's also a big
factor. People are moving to a community
(20:32):
to socialize usually and they'relooking initially to be
independent and socialized. And then from there things may
decline and they may need more help and services.
So they may go to an assisted living portion of it and then of
course, sometimes to a memory care.
So initially when people come in, they are looking for
(20:54):
socialization. What are you going to give me
that keeps me with other people,dining activities, social
engagement that they can't get an independent living at home?
I know with commercial properties, obviously planning
is such a huge aspect of this. What research or community input
do you gather beforehand? We do a lot of research on our
(21:16):
own. They give us initially a packet
of marketing research, but what we're looking for is who are
their biggest competitors all inthe area?
What are they providing? What are their amenities look
like? What are their units look like?
We photograph them. We go and photograph them and
then we put them on a board so we can see what they look like
(21:39):
and what they're missing. And we'll make a list of what
they're missing, try to hit thatarea and engage with putting
those amenities in that the other communities don't have and
the units adding more features that you know, might be more
unique and interesting. And that's really how we grow
and design from the beginning. Are there specific data points
(22:01):
that influence your design decisions?
So it's always we, we come up with our list when we're
starting to design, but it's, it's a group decision.
So whoever the group is that owns it, the development group,
they also have a team of people that we have to work with and we
all make the decisions together.So they're made as a team so
(22:22):
that everybody's on board. They feel like they've made
those decisions as a group and everybody's on board to move
forward with what those design decisions are.
How complex is that process? Like is that too many cooks in
the kitchen scenario sometimes? Sometimes is.
It usually pretty smooth. Yeah, we have groups that it's
super smooth and it's super buttoned up.
And then we have other groups that there's just so many people
(22:44):
sitting at the table for those meetings that we're like, OK,
we're going to leave you guys with this inspiration package
and this list of what we think we want to do for the amenities
and space plans. And then we're going to let you
come back to us and give us a decision in terms of what
directions. And if it's still unclear, then
we'll have another meeting and we'll all focus in on different
(23:04):
areas, units and amenities, typically separate so that we
don't get too many decisions made in one day.
We definitely find that if there's too many cooks, too many
decisions is too difficult of a task.
So we'll break it up into different areas to make it a
little bit more easy, easier to kind of make those decisions as
a group. That's definitely a smart way to
go, but I just feel like gettinga consensus on something like
(23:27):
that because everybody has a, a different vision and idea of
what, how they can perceive thisspace.
Even though you're the expert, they're still, I mean, it's the
same with us. We can design an ad campaign or
website, but sometimes the the operator sees a different vision
and then everything has to change based on that.
Yeah. My favorite is when you get a
branding company involved and they're picking branding before
(23:47):
we've done the design. And I'm like, wait a second, why
are we going to follow a branding before we've come up
with a direction that's best forthe community?
So I always like to figure out the direction for the community
and work in tandem with the branding group so that we make
sure we're all on the same page,branding and marketing to the
(24:09):
same audience, rather than branding dictating or design
dictating. It really is a combination is,
you know, it's very important for us to figure all that out
together, but not be directive from one over the other.
Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense.
I want to talk about the developer aspect of this because
I know right now there's so manynew development projects
(24:31):
underway. As the population of older
adults continues to increase forthe next decade and a half,
roughly, what are the most common missteps developers make
when planning for senior living interiors?
That's a great question. I think there's a lot of things
that are missed, to be honest with you, and there's some
developers that do it incrediblywell and other developers that
(24:52):
are trying to get into the arenaand they're just thinking about
what they do for a market rate apartment and not necessarily
for a senior apartment. So I guess to answer that, I
would say the biggest thing thatI would probably see is that the
units need to be bigger and easier to get around and flow.
(25:12):
I think what I see a lot of times that architects do on a
new build is that they will put the closet between the bedroom
and the bathroom. OK, that's probably my biggest
misstep that I see for seniors because seniors may need to use
the washroom more frequently during the evening and to have
to go all the way from your bedroom through a walk in closet
(25:36):
to a bathroom is not really efficient for a senior.
So I always explain that to architects.
I'm like, we really need to havethe bathroom there and then put
the closet on the other side because it needs to be a quick
short step from the bedroom to the bathroom.
That's probably the biggest misstep that I see.
And you also mentioned how important it is to understand
(25:57):
that this move to senior living is potentially somebody's last
home. I mean, I, I that has to weigh
on the design choices and, and even just from the design lens
overall when you're planning a project, I mean, how do you, how
do you factor that in? So I'm having experienced this a
number of times on a personal level with my mother who needed
(26:17):
memory care and my aunt who needed memory care, and I cared
for both of them. It's a challenge because when
you're looking at a community, if you're an independent senior
living, it's one area that is, you know, wonderful if you want
to be socialized and have, you know, dining and activities with
lots of other people. But ultimately you really need
(26:41):
to be looking at the other portion of senior living, which
is the assisted and the memory care and what you might need at
the end stage and how well that community is going to give you
those services and what their regulations are.
Because the regulations are really key.
(27:01):
Some of these places basically take over your life.
Even with the family making decisions.
They have rules and regulations,and you have to follow those
rules and regulations and it becomes very complex, especially
in the memory care area. So you have to be prepared for
some of those things at the end game.
(27:21):
And it's not to say that everyone needs that, but when
you're looking for a community, you need to look at that.
And it's really, really important because things change
from an independent all the way to the memory care and, and
there's some odd things in between that you need to be
looking at. Some of those are what are the
rules and regulations with medication, with facilities on,
(27:42):
on, on, you know, on the premise, what do they offer?
What kind of facilities do they have and how do they work with
you on that? You know, it's very, very
important. So those are things to look at
when you're looking at putting someone into a community or
putting yourself into a community.
It's all great if you're able todrive and get yourself places
(28:02):
and, you know, have a more independent living.
I have an uncle who's 96 years old and he is very independent,
plays bridge every day. And you know, is, is, is very
capable of doing everything. So he hasn't needed any of those
services. But if you do need some of those
services, it's really, really important to look at those as a
(28:22):
family or an individual when you're picking a community.
It's interesting, you could probably say that the higher the
level of care, the lower the focus is on design.
Yeah, and that's. Just kind of unfortunate.
You're initially as an independent person moving into a
community, you're picking something based on design.
And I try to go out there and tell people you really need to
(28:43):
look at the end game because what are those services?
What's the ratio of people to staff, which is really, really,
really important. And you tend to find the higher
end you pay for a community, thesmaller the ratio is.
But every single group has different, you know, issues and
(29:04):
you need to look at all of thosedifferent things that could be a
problem. And so you just have to look at
things a little bit differently than just, oh, is it a beautiful
community. You know, from a user
standpoint, you need to be picking something that has a
smaller ratio of staff to individual people at the end
game. And if not, you'll be hiring
(29:24):
your own care along with paying the overhead of that facility.
And I have experienced that personally.
So and design them so I understand what that looks like.
I didn't know to ask those questions at the beginning.
I had no idea that I needed to know what that was.
I also didn't understand that they have their own medical
(29:45):
director and that medical director is making decisions
that you may not agree with. So you have to make sure you ask
those questions upfront. It's amazing the, I don't say
the lack of education, but the lack of awareness, I think that
most people have around senior living and the different levels
of care until they actually haveto face it for the first time.
(30:06):
That's one of the goals that we have as a marketing agencies,
the communities we we managed not only to educate their
audience on the amenities and the features and the benefits of
living there, but also about those different levels of care
and when they kick in. And to to start creating that
narrative with people early on in their decision making
process. So they're not left in the last
moments of a crisis trying to figure out what level of care do
(30:29):
I need? What is this going to cost?
How am I going to pay for this? All those types of things we're
trying to trying to help them figure out ahead of time.
So it's it's definitely challenging.
I because I experienced this so early on with my mother at a
young age. My mom had Lewy bodies and she
was sick in her 60s. What was interesting is they
(30:49):
didn't know that it was Louis bodies at the time until the end
of sort of more towards the end because of where we're located
in Baltimore. But you know, what I didn't
understand were some of the needs that are so different from
a person walking around to a person being bedridden.
And so you know what those services are are just so key.
(31:12):
So I also, I didn't understand long term care until I,
fortunately my mother had long term care and she had a really
good long term care plan. And so I was able to get some
experience with that. And at the time, you know, it
made me look at do I need long term care?
Should I have long term care? And the answer, of course, was
(31:33):
yes, you know, everybody should have long term care unless you
want to deplete every single ounce of money that you've
earned over a lifetime because it's expensive to care as you
get to a certain age and you have certain medical conditions
or. And so, you know, I talk, I talk
about that a lot to a lot of different friends and family
members. And I'm on the board of
Alzheimer's for the state of Maryland.
(31:55):
So I learn about a lot of different things that, you know,
I'm Privy to from looking at different research and that kind
of thing. And Maryland happens to be one
of the top in the country for Alzheimer's.
So we're small state, but we have a very large population
with Alzheimer's. And a lot of it from the
research looks like diet and exercise and those kinds of
(32:19):
things. But you know, it's so important
to understand what your needs are, if you need that kind of
care and, and what that level ofcare costs.
And I, you know, I talk about that to different people and I,
I tell people why you're you're young, you know, get some long
term care. It's inexpensive when you're
younger. And look at that and see what
(32:40):
you might need. You know, one in three people
become, I think, disabled in a lifetime.
And so it's important to look atthat and make sure that you have
some kind of coverage so that you're being cared for in a kind
and compassionate way. Yeah.
And one in three adults over theage of 80 have Alzheimer's.
That's correct. That's a staggering statistic.
(33:00):
It is staggering, but they are making strides.
I have seen some research with some new drugs that are coming
out on the market that are really being quite effective so
that that's positive and you know, we're excited to see where
that goes. There's been some really great
new drugs that are coming out that I think are really going to
be super helpful for slowing theprocess down any day.
(33:21):
We hope to have any kind of research that changes that.
Yeah, yeah, it's terrible and scary disease for sure.
Talking about the end game too. What design elements can
directly support that phase? So people are living with
dignity, safety and comfort in those situations.
So one of the things that I found in a most of the
communities that I've visited, and I've visited many, many
(33:44):
communities over the States is that, you know, you have fire
doors and you have fire ratings and things that you have to
have. But an Alzheimer's patient who's
walking, they're walking a lot, they're moving around a lot.
There's a phase that they go through where they're touching
everything, looking at everything, walking up and down
the corridors constantly. But if they're locked in the
(34:06):
room, some of them can't even figure out how to open their
door because the doors are too heavy.
So, you know, there's just thesesimple little magnets that you
can put that can keep the door open so that you don't have to
feel locked in your room. But it still has the fire rated
door. So there's all these different
things that you can do. And you can buy that little
(34:27):
magnet for like I think it's $30online.
I recommend it to everyone, by the way.
And you know, it's just super helpful for making the person
feel like they're not locked in to their room without anybody
peeking in on them and being able to to see that they're OK.
You know, one thing I've learned, staff is super busy
(34:47):
because every level of care is needed.
Once you're in memory care, you've got the people walking
around, you've got the people chatting with you.
And then you have the people that are basically some unable
to talk, some able to, unable tofeed themselves, some unable to
bathe and get themselves dressedor need help figuring out how to
(35:08):
get dressed in the morning, you know, or getting undressed for
night. There's so many different levels
of care and the staff is stretched and they're stretched
thin every single day. And so anything that you can do
as a family member to help out is, is greatly appreciated.
So, you know, from a design standpoint, I think I love that
(35:29):
magnet. I also like keeping things very
simple. When you get to memory care,
it's about keeping things simplified.
Not too many items in the room, not too many accessories, not
too many breakable things because they will break, they
will touch them, they will fall on the floor and break.
So really, keeping things simplified from a design
standpoint is really best. Looking towards the future too,
(35:53):
well, I guess now into the future we could say what are
some of the most exciting innovations or trends that
you're seeing that are influencing senior living
interiors now and into the future?
A lot of digitized things movinginto the technology of things.
You know, the one thing that youfind with seniors as they
decline the ability to use theirphone and how that translates
(36:15):
into feeling connected to their family, There's just so many new
trends coming out and computers and Zoom.
You know, it's really great to be able to FaceTime or Zoom and
see your loved one. And we want to make Zoom Rooms.
And we want to make, you know, you can have different people in
the community show you, you know, set it up for you, get it
(36:35):
ready for you and to give you that connection so that if
somebody can't visit you and they're out of state, this gives
you that you feel like you're being there in the same room
with them. It just feels really special.
So those took technology things are super, super vital to
keeping a senior living person happy and feeling connected.
(36:56):
You're saying a physical zoom room?
A room they. Would go into we're setting up a
lot of those and not just regular market rate communities,
but also in the senior living. They love them, they're super
popular. People can help you do it.
It's really easy to do. You can have the person at the
community set up the zoom with your family members.
You can set them up pretty regularly and then a person
(37:17):
comes and gets you brings you into the Zoom room or you can
just do a simple FaceTime. But you know, most of the time
they need help setting all of that up or getting it going.
But it really it really helps them feel connected and they
don't feel abandoned. So I think those are really
important technology things thatare really kind of moving
forward for seniors. My last question for you, there
were two innovations you had already mentioned the creating
(37:38):
mini marts in the community as well as better lighting
automation. Are there other things that you
think are missing in modern senior communities?
More lighting developers have tospend more money on the
lighting. I know they they want to reduce
it because of cost, but that is one thing you really, really
need to do is add additional lighting.
Seniors have a hard time seeing their eyesight's declining, and
(38:02):
it's a fact through any ophthalmologist or optometrist
that the better light that you have, the more you feel like you
can accomplish things. And so it's really important to
get good lighting in the units, not just the community.
That's great, my. Number one, yeah.
Marcy, thank you so much for such a great conversation.
Where can our audience go to learn more about MSA Interiors
(38:24):
or connect with you? We're certainly online at
msainteriors.com and we'll happyto answer any questions anyone
has. Feel free to reach out.
Our contact is right on our website and and we're happy to
share any of that information. What about designer Bank?
Is that going to have a separateURL or is that on the?
(38:44):
Same. It's going to be
designerbank.com. It has not launched yet.
So we're looking at anywhere from three to six months until
we launch that and we'll have itup on our website when we do
launch. Awesome.
Yeah. And we'll, we'll add it to the
show notes as soon as it goes live to I want people to be able
to find that. Awesome.
As we wrap up today's episode, Iwant to extend a huge thank you
to you, Marcy Sagal, for joiningus and sharing your rich
(39:07):
insights on what it truly means to design for dignity,
functionality, and connection. From rethinking materials to
creating spaces that feel like home, your work is changing the
conversation around what senior living can and should feel like.
So if you want to learn more about MSA Interiors or connect
with Marcy directly, we've included her LinkedIn and
company website in the show notes.
(39:28):
As always, we hope you found this episode insightful and
inspiring. Don't forget to subscribe to our
podcast on your favorite platforms.
And stay tuned for more episodeswhere we continue to explore the
evolving world of senior care, covering everything from
innovative care models and leadership strategies to family
support technology in the futureof aging.
And also remember that From Leads to Leads isn't just an
(39:48):
audio experience. We're also a video podcast.
So if you want to see the video versions of our episodes, make
sure to subscribe to our YouTubeor Spotify channels.
I'm Jerry Vincey, CEO of CCR growth.
Thank you for joining us on FromLeads to Leases.
Please like, subscribe and sharethis episode with anyone who
might find it useful. I'm truly grateful for your time
and attention. So until next time, lead with
(40:09):
strategy and with heart. Chat with you again soon.
Thanks so much, Marcy. Thanks, Jerry.
I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me.
Thanks for listening to From Leads to Leases.
Are you ready to fill your roomsfaster and increase occupancy?
Visit ccrgrowth.com to learn about our Senior Growth
Innovation Suite, a proven system to generate highly
(40:29):
qualified tour ready leads, accelerate sales and reduce
acquisition costs. Let's connect and turn your
challenges into opportunities. See you next.
Time.
You're initially as an independent person moving into a
community, you're picking something based on design.
And I try to go out there and tell people really need to look
at the end game because what arethose services?
You need to look at all of thosedifferent things that could be a
problem. So you just have to look at
things a little bit differently than just, oh, is it a beautiful
community. What if your community's
(00:20):
interior design wasn't just about aesthetics, but was the
key to increasing occupancy, reducing turnover, and creating
a real sense of home for older adults?
Today's guest has spent over 30 years proving just how powerful
thoughtful design can be. Welcome to From Leeds to Leases
ACCR Growth podcast that helps senior living providers
(00:41):
transform their complex challenges into opportunities.
Listen in for stories from industry leaders, innovative
strategies and insights, and with our expertise, learn how to
increase occupancy faster, Guaranteed.
Welcome back to another episode from Lisa Lisa's, the podcast
that dives deep into the senior living and senior care
(01:02):
industries, bringing you insights, strategies, and
stories from the experts at the forefront of innovation,
leadership, and care. I'm your host, Jerry Vinci, CEO
of CCR Growth, and for those of you who don't know about us, CCR
Growth is a full service marketing and growth agency that
is exclusive to the senior living industry.
And through this podcast, I'm here to guide you through the
evolving landscape of senior care, exploring the innovations,
(01:25):
strategies, and leadership insights that are shaping the
future of the industry. So whether you're a provider, a
caregiver, or an industry leader, this show is here to
help you make informed decisionsand create meaningful impact.
So today I'm joined by Marcy Sagal, Founder and Principal of
MSA Interiors. With over 3 decades of
experience in commercial interior design, Marcy's LED
(01:46):
projects across multifamily, student housing and senior
living. Her firm is known for
transforming spaces in a way that not only looks beautiful,
but actually enhances tenant satisfaction, supports aging in
place, and drives real business results like accelerated lease
ups and increased NOI. Marcy's approach blends smart
design with empathy and strategy, and I think you'll
(02:09):
walk away from this conversationrethinking what design can
actually do. So Marcy, welcome to the show.
I'm so glad to have you here. Jerry, thank you so much for
having me. I'm excited to be on your show.
Thank you. Absolutely.
It's a pleasure talking with creative individuals.
I always like to start with the the origins story.
I think that's always interesting.
What first drew you to interior design, and what's kept you
(02:29):
inspired through the decades? So when I was young and a little
girl, I had an incredible sense of fashion and style and would
have different interior designers working on her house,
some good, some not so good. And so she would always, I'm an
only daughter, I have two brothers.
And so she would always ask my opinion and I would add my kind
(02:53):
of opinion and I'd look at things that were presented and
started to formulate bigger opinions as I got a little bit
older and was a little bit more versed into how design worked.
And so I helped design a lot of our house as things move
forward. And I felt like this was
definitely a passion for me froma very, very young age.
(03:17):
And I liked it so much that, youknow, I decided to start my
career in that. And so I studied graphic design
and interior design and just howthose two kind of connected for
me were a very large part of howI got into this business.
And I know you recently launcheda second venture Designer bank.
Can you share the vision behind it and how it fits into your
(03:41):
mission as a mentor? Sure.
So you know, when you own a company and you are the
principal and you are growing your business, you learn a lot
about yourself as an employer. You learn a lot about yourself
as a design leader. And over the years, not only are
you growing in those two categories, but you're trying to
(04:03):
grow your employees. And so there's a lot of training
involved and a lot of, you know,what I call a good, bad and
indifferent things that I've done over the years.
And so you grow these processes and you figure out how to work
most efficiently and how to makepeople feel comfortable in their
job. And you train them in different
categories of being a designer. With that, we work on very large
(04:25):
jobs. And what I found was a lot of
designers have only one aspect of design and may not have all
of the aspects that we're looking for.
And so we had to train people nomatter how much experience they
had. And what we found was that we
were basically training people over the over and over and over
again with the same kind of expertise that we wanted in each
(04:48):
of our designers. And so I thought there was
something missing. What I found was that we have
some what I call good Nuggets tooffer other designers out there.
And we decided that we were going to start doing these
training modules that any designer, architect or person
wanting to learn in this industry could learn from.
(05:09):
And so we were doing 30 minute modules in what we would call
beginner, intermediate and advanced courses that would be
very, very inexpensive that commercial designers or anyone
that was a designer that wanted to learn how to be a commercial
designer could get from a lot ofour training.
And so I've been working on scripting currently and the
(05:29):
scripting is the most important part of these modules.
And then everyone in my office is going to participate in these
learning modules and we're goingto launch them and they'll be
available to anyone that wants them.
And I would say probably in the next three to six months, we'll
be launching some of them, but we hope to be launching 37 of
them. And people can pick and choose
(05:50):
what categories. For example, we want to teach
people how to render and we do all of our own rendering in
house. It's fast, it's quick, it's
very, very high level. And so we want other people to
learn how to do that. And so, so rendering would have
sort of a beginner, an intermediate and advanced course
in rendering. And by the end, you should know
(06:10):
quite a bit about rendering and can kind of take it from there.
And then eventually when we're doing these online, we hope to
eventually have some in person trainings around the country
that we can also launch and havepeople sign up and come in
person. So that's kind of where we're
we're going with Designer Bank. I love it.
That's so cool. Thanks.
(06:31):
Why do you think there's such a knowledge gap for people?
Is the education system failing when it comes to training or is
it this on the job training thatsomebody just has to acquire so.
Commercial designers work in whatever the architectural firms
work in. And right now the larger the
jobs, the more the architecturalfirms are working.
They work in what is Revit. It's an, you know, an Autodesk,
(06:54):
it was CAD and now it's Revit. So everyone's working in Revit.
Revit's expensive and it takes alot of training.
And even if you've trained forever in Revit, you're never
going to know completely all there is to know about Revit
because it's, it's just got so many levels to it.
And for designers, there's a lotof work around.
(07:15):
That's what I like to call it. Where architects, it's been
really designed for architects, but for designers it's really
got a lot of workarounds. So we're going to be talking
about a lot of that in the training.
We're going to be giving the gaps that there are for interior
designers. When you go to school, you don't
necessarily learn how to be a commercial designer.
(07:38):
You learn what I call basics only.
There's only a handful of designer schools out there that
are training people in Revit andtraining them well so that they
can come out and work in it efficiently.
And so we're going to just fill the gaps that there are out of
school. And not only that, if you're an
architect and you're doing into your design, there are a lot of
(07:59):
different scenarios that you're going to learn through the
training module. So it's really for advanced
architects, it's for beginner interior designers that want to
learn how to be a commercial designer and filling those needs
sort of with some training. I know exactly what you mean.
I mean, one of my undergraduate degrees was in graphic design.
(08:19):
It was very different. What you learn in the program in
school versus what you learn in the field.
And whatever your agency is working on at the time is what
you become proficient in. So that makes sense.
Yeah. And I think, you know, I've
guest spoken at a lot of universities that teach sort of
like a master's in real estate. And you know, you're working
(08:40):
with a lot of developers in those courses that have never
ever dealt with design. And basically my course is
always to teach them how to select things that are not what
they necessarily like, but are what's right for the
architecture, what's right for, you know, that audience that's
going to be leasing from you, let's say in multi family.
(09:01):
So I kind of give them what I would do for any client.
We give them inspirations and webreak them up into groups in the
class and we have them as a group understand what their
competitors have visually. And so they can see what they
have visually for the amenity and for the units.
And then we have them pick what might be best for them for that
(09:23):
market to rent. And, and it's really kind of
fascinating. And by the end, I think that
they have a good understanding of how to select inspirations
and direction of where the building's going to go.
A lot of people too, they start in residential design and then
they eventually, some people pivot like you pivoted into the
commercial space. What pulled you towards the
commercial space, and specifically what pulled you
(09:44):
towards senior living? So it's a really good question.
And the answer to that is, is that I love residential design
because it's so creative, but commercial design is, it's a
knowledge base and you have to have skills that you have to
learn along the way, especially for senior living, there are
(10:06):
things that you need to know about materials and adaptability
and different needs that seniorshave.
And it's different than any other type of commercial design.
So when I did residential, I love it, but I'm dealing with
individual clients is a challenge in itself.
And as as much as I find it creative, I really prefer
(10:30):
dealing on the corporate side orthe development side because I
feel like the ability to design a whole building is a lot more
effective and a lot more challenging and a lot more
interesting from an outcome for me anyway.
So that was definitely why I went into commercial design.
Last time we spoke to, you were telling me a story about how you
save a client hundreds of thousands of dollars by
(10:52):
redlining cabinetry specs. How did you How did that change
the course of your career? Yeah, well, I had a mentor who
was an architect who brought me into a very, very large project,
got me started in the multifamily arena, and he kind
of guided me along the process. And now the reason he he came to
(11:12):
me was because I knew cabinetry.And so I had a lot of experience
in cabinetry was helping a lot of I was working with a lot of
cabinetry lines to help them design what they were producing
for their audience. And I took a look at his
drawings and I said, well, wow, why would anybody put this?
(11:33):
If this door's too tall, it's going to warp.
It's over what we would call thenatural height of a door for
cabinetry. And if it's made of wood, it's
going to 100% warp. And we don't need this many
cabinetry for rental. And there's way too many
drawers. Drawers fail.
It's the first thing that fails in cabinetry, especially when
you're getting a lot of wear andtear like in, you know, rental
(11:56):
units and that kind of thing. And it just didn't make any
sense. So he's like, well, why don't
you just redline it for me and tell me what you would cut out?
And I said, well, I'm going to tell you what I'm going to cut
out from a price perspective, and then I'm going to make a
list of wear and tear, what we should try to take out and have
less of. We don't need, you know, it's
(12:16):
not like a residential home where you need to have, you
know, 20 or 30 drawers in a kitchen.
You know, we need to have utensil drawers.
We need to have daily cutlery drawers.
We need to have, you know, different types of drawers
depending on, you know, high, how high level it is.
So let's cut some of those out because they're going to fail
(12:38):
and that's what we're going to end up having to fix.
So he listened. It saved him hundreds of
thousands of dollars in cabinetry right across the
board. And, and he's like, I want to do
this again because I had no ideawe can save that amount of
money. And and then we could use that
money to basically we ended up putting a Chihuly fixture in the
(12:59):
lobby that we saved from the cabinetry.
So there's so many different ways you can save in the units
themselves and still give in a really high level unit without
wasting money on things that youdon't necessarily need so.
I love that. I love that.
I'm curious to what are some of the key ways senior living
(13:19):
design needs to evolve beyond the institutional look that a
lot of places still carry today?So people want to walk in and
feel like they're in a high level residence.
You know, you want to walk in and you want to see high level
furniture, high level finishes. You want to see a bar area, you
want to see a cooked kitchen that everybody might be able to
(13:41):
share, A quiet reading area, a fireplace area, lots of
different nooks that you can go to.
A gaming area, a area for peopleto play games, an area for
people to, you know, have like amovie night or an area for
people to gather for a Sunday service.
There's so many different thingsthat you need, but we make it
(14:03):
feel more residential. We don't make it feel like it's
an old school health, you know, space.
We really give it that residential hotel feel that
makes people feel like they walkin and they go, wow, this is
where I want to be. This feels like me, This is high
level and it has all of these different amenities that I've
(14:23):
never seen even before. And, you know, garden areas,
walking paths, all of those wonderful things that we now do
in senior living that make it a lot more residential feel.
What do you think senior living residents value most in their
environments? So obviously the units are
really, really important. When you're bringing someone in
(14:44):
for their walkthrough tour, their unit is going to be most
important. But you also need to have the
wow factor. And you want people to feel like
they're walking through a space that feels like they'd feel very
comfortable bringing any family members or friends to come and
visit. And the unit got to have that,
you know, space that looks really fantastic, but you also
(15:06):
need it to feel special. And so we make the finishes feel
very special. And we also have a lot of key
factors that we like to do in the units, like, you know,
adding lighting, you know, just basic lighting.
You know, old school, they didn't have any kind of lighting
on the ceiling or fans or any ofthat kind of thing.
(15:27):
You'd walk in and you'd have to put lamps that you actually have
to turn on before you walk in the room.
Well, that's not really great for seniors.
That's not easy, you know, I have a hard time seeing
sometimes. So I want to walk into a room
and the light comes on and or I hit a switch and all of them
come on. Those things really make a big
difference. I want to feel like if I want to
(15:47):
leave my door open, I can leave my door open and not have to
feel so shut in and by myself. And so there's all these
different things that you can add to the units that make them
feel a lot more special. Adding TV areas and not only the
bedroom, but also in the living room areas as well, wherever you
may want to put it. You know, let's say you want to
sit at your kitchen table and you want to be able to watch the
(16:10):
news in the morning while you'rehaving your coffee that you
don't have to go back into the living room to do that.
So just really being more thoughtful and and more
directive with with what you're going to do for each of the
individual units is super important.
I would think too, from an operational standpoint, you're
saving on energy costs and you're also saving on safety
issues too. If somebody has mobility
(16:32):
challenges and they're having toget up and down just to just to
turn on a lighter to something in their unit, I think that's
another added value. Yeah.
And we used to always put carpetin bedrooms and carpets kind of
a sometimes it can be a trip andfall for a senior.
And so, you know, the flooring is just, you know, new, new
lines of flooring that we're putting in now and senior
(16:53):
living. And it's just so many new ways
of technology that we're adding to each of these vending
machines so that, you know, people don't have to necessarily
run to, you know, let's say Acvsto go get just basic things like
maybe a Tylenol or a band aids or just simple things that they
(17:15):
may just want to have, you know,available to them.
And again, I'm not saying it's Tylenol or band aids, but using
that as an example for, you know, just basic things that you
would get at a pharmacy that youdon't have to run out for.
So just adding those kinds of, you know, things we have, you
know, sometimes we do like a loaner, like we can loan a
(17:37):
vacuum cleaner or a, you know, cleaning equipment or those
kinds of things. If you want to do your space
yourself and you know, you want to clean your unit and have it
fresh and you don't want to havesomebody come in and do it for
you. There's things that, you know,
we have all these new sort of technology things that we can
do, a loaner, you know, library or whatever you want to do for
(17:59):
books or online. All of those things Add all
kinds of interest to any of the senior living things that we do.
One of the things that you talked about was design driving
ROI. How is that measured?
Is that typically just, you know, we redesigned the space
and since redesigning the space we've seen more lease UPS or our
(18:20):
conversion rate is higher or ourretention rate is better than it
was before. How are you measuring that?
Or how are they measuring that? So if it's a new build, it's
obviously you're, you're measuring from lease UPS from
zero to wherever it goes. And we look at it in the time
frame. So they in their development
plans and financials, they have a period of time that they want
(18:41):
to be at a certain percent leased up and we typically are
way ahead of their lease up schedule.
And I get, I followed that because I find it very exciting
to make sure that we're hitting the mark on the design and of
course the price point and everything else all plays into
it. But we do follow it and we like
to kind of track where we are. But you know, you're also
looking at for any of the renovations, you know, a lot of
(19:05):
them are dated and you know, different ownerships feel
different needs in different, you know, communities to either
update the higher end communities because they're
making more dollars per unit or even keeping some of their lower
end properties updated because you know, they, they need to
keep it looking fresh. And you're, you've got so much
competition out there. So all of these different things
(19:26):
are all trackable. They're trackable by percentages
of dollars and percentages of time and percentages of how full
the, you know, that particular senior living community fills
up. In your experience, too, have
there been certain features or adaptable spaces that have
translated into better ROI? Typically, on average, yeah.
(19:48):
Every time we install one of these fountains, we get more
movements. I would say there's not one
thing in particular. It's sort of a lot of things and
the units and the amenities are really both equally important.
Some people are really just looking at the units, while
other people want the whole community and the activities and
everything else that are going to play into it to be a part of
(20:10):
their decision making. And you know, some of the
companies that run these programs do a better job at the
daily activities and keep it incredibly full with an activity
director that is really engaged.Age and looking for new and
important things. So that that's also a big
factor. People are moving to a community
(20:32):
to socialize usually and they'relooking initially to be
independent and socialized. And then from there things may
decline and they may need more help and services.
So they may go to an assisted living portion of it and then of
course, sometimes to a memory care.
So initially when people come in, they are looking for
(20:54):
socialization. What are you going to give me
that keeps me with other people,dining activities, social
engagement that they can't get an independent living at home?
I know with commercial properties, obviously planning
is such a huge aspect of this. What research or community input
do you gather beforehand? We do a lot of research on our
(21:16):
own. They give us initially a packet
of marketing research, but what we're looking for is who are
their biggest competitors all inthe area?
What are they providing? What are their amenities look
like? What are their units look like?
We photograph them. We go and photograph them and
then we put them on a board so we can see what they look like
(21:39):
and what they're missing. And we'll make a list of what
they're missing, try to hit thatarea and engage with putting
those amenities in that the other communities don't have and
the units adding more features that you know, might be more
unique and interesting. And that's really how we grow
and design from the beginning. Are there specific data points
(22:01):
that influence your design decisions?
So it's always we, we come up with our list when we're
starting to design, but it's, it's a group decision.
So whoever the group is that owns it, the development group,
they also have a team of people that we have to work with and we
all make the decisions together.So they're made as a team so
(22:22):
that everybody's on board. They feel like they've made
those decisions as a group and everybody's on board to move
forward with what those design decisions are.
How complex is that process? Like is that too many cooks in
the kitchen scenario sometimes? Sometimes is.
It usually pretty smooth. Yeah, we have groups that it's
super smooth and it's super buttoned up.
And then we have other groups that there's just so many people
(22:44):
sitting at the table for those meetings that we're like, OK,
we're going to leave you guys with this inspiration package
and this list of what we think we want to do for the amenities
and space plans. And then we're going to let you
come back to us and give us a decision in terms of what
directions. And if it's still unclear, then
we'll have another meeting and we'll all focus in on different
(23:04):
areas, units and amenities, typically separate so that we
don't get too many decisions made in one day.
We definitely find that if there's too many cooks, too many
decisions is too difficult of a task.
So we'll break it up into different areas to make it a
little bit more easy, easier to kind of make those decisions as
a group. That's definitely a smart way to
go, but I just feel like gettinga consensus on something like
(23:27):
that because everybody has a, a different vision and idea of
what, how they can perceive thisspace.
Even though you're the expert, they're still, I mean, it's the
same with us. We can design an ad campaign or
website, but sometimes the the operator sees a different vision
and then everything has to change based on that.
Yeah. My favorite is when you get a
branding company involved and they're picking branding before
(23:47):
we've done the design. And I'm like, wait a second, why
are we going to follow a branding before we've come up
with a direction that's best forthe community?
So I always like to figure out the direction for the community
and work in tandem with the branding group so that we make
sure we're all on the same page,branding and marketing to the
(24:09):
same audience, rather than branding dictating or design
dictating. It really is a combination is,
you know, it's very important for us to figure all that out
together, but not be directive from one over the other.
Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense.
I want to talk about the developer aspect of this because
I know right now there's so manynew development projects
(24:31):
underway. As the population of older
adults continues to increase forthe next decade and a half,
roughly, what are the most common missteps developers make
when planning for senior living interiors?
That's a great question. I think there's a lot of things
that are missed, to be honest with you, and there's some
developers that do it incrediblywell and other developers that
(24:52):
are trying to get into the arenaand they're just thinking about
what they do for a market rate apartment and not necessarily
for a senior apartment. So I guess to answer that, I
would say the biggest thing thatI would probably see is that the
units need to be bigger and easier to get around and flow.
(25:12):
I think what I see a lot of times that architects do on a
new build is that they will put the closet between the bedroom
and the bathroom. OK, that's probably my biggest
misstep that I see for seniors because seniors may need to use
the washroom more frequently during the evening and to have
to go all the way from your bedroom through a walk in closet
(25:36):
to a bathroom is not really efficient for a senior.
So I always explain that to architects.
I'm like, we really need to havethe bathroom there and then put
the closet on the other side because it needs to be a quick
short step from the bedroom to the bathroom.
That's probably the biggest misstep that I see.
And you also mentioned how important it is to understand
(25:57):
that this move to senior living is potentially somebody's last
home. I mean, I, I that has to weigh
on the design choices and, and even just from the design lens
overall when you're planning a project, I mean, how do you, how
do you factor that in? So I'm having experienced this a
number of times on a personal level with my mother who needed
(26:17):
memory care and my aunt who needed memory care, and I cared
for both of them. It's a challenge because when
you're looking at a community, if you're an independent senior
living, it's one area that is, you know, wonderful if you want
to be socialized and have, you know, dining and activities with
lots of other people. But ultimately you really need
(26:41):
to be looking at the other portion of senior living, which
is the assisted and the memory care and what you might need at
the end stage and how well that community is going to give you
those services and what their regulations are.
Because the regulations are really key.
(27:01):
Some of these places basically take over your life.
Even with the family making decisions.
They have rules and regulations,and you have to follow those
rules and regulations and it becomes very complex, especially
in the memory care area. So you have to be prepared for
some of those things at the end game.
(27:21):
And it's not to say that everyone needs that, but when
you're looking for a community, you need to look at that.
And it's really, really important because things change
from an independent all the way to the memory care and, and
there's some odd things in between that you need to be
looking at. Some of those are what are the
rules and regulations with medication, with facilities on,
(27:42):
on, on, you know, on the premise, what do they offer?
What kind of facilities do they have and how do they work with
you on that? You know, it's very, very
important. So those are things to look at
when you're looking at putting someone into a community or
putting yourself into a community.
It's all great if you're able todrive and get yourself places
(28:02):
and, you know, have a more independent living.
I have an uncle who's 96 years old and he is very independent,
plays bridge every day. And you know, is, is, is very
capable of doing everything. So he hasn't needed any of those
services. But if you do need some of those
services, it's really, really important to look at those as a
(28:22):
family or an individual when you're picking a community.
It's interesting, you could probably say that the higher the
level of care, the lower the focus is on design.
Yeah, and that's. Just kind of unfortunate.
You're initially as an independent person moving into a
community, you're picking something based on design.
And I try to go out there and tell people you really need to
(28:43):
look at the end game because what are those services?
What's the ratio of people to staff, which is really, really,
really important. And you tend to find the higher
end you pay for a community, thesmaller the ratio is.
But every single group has different, you know, issues and
(29:04):
you need to look at all of thosedifferent things that could be a
problem. And so you just have to look at
things a little bit differently than just, oh, is it a beautiful
community. You know, from a user
standpoint, you need to be picking something that has a
smaller ratio of staff to individual people at the end
game. And if not, you'll be hiring
(29:24):
your own care along with paying the overhead of that facility.
And I have experienced that personally.
So and design them so I understand what that looks like.
I didn't know to ask those questions at the beginning.
I had no idea that I needed to know what that was.
I also didn't understand that they have their own medical
(29:45):
director and that medical director is making decisions
that you may not agree with. So you have to make sure you ask
those questions upfront. It's amazing the, I don't say
the lack of education, but the lack of awareness, I think that
most people have around senior living and the different levels
of care until they actually haveto face it for the first time.
(30:06):
That's one of the goals that we have as a marketing agencies,
the communities we we managed not only to educate their
audience on the amenities and the features and the benefits of
living there, but also about those different levels of care
and when they kick in. And to to start creating that
narrative with people early on in their decision making
process. So they're not left in the last
moments of a crisis trying to figure out what level of care do
(30:29):
I need? What is this going to cost?
How am I going to pay for this? All those types of things we're
trying to trying to help them figure out ahead of time.
So it's it's definitely challenging.
I because I experienced this so early on with my mother at a
young age. My mom had Lewy bodies and she
was sick in her 60s. What was interesting is they
(30:49):
didn't know that it was Louis bodies at the time until the end
of sort of more towards the end because of where we're located
in Baltimore. But you know, what I didn't
understand were some of the needs that are so different from
a person walking around to a person being bedridden.
And so you know what those services are are just so key.
(31:12):
So I also, I didn't understand long term care until I,
fortunately my mother had long term care and she had a really
good long term care plan. And so I was able to get some
experience with that. And at the time, you know, it
made me look at do I need long term care?
Should I have long term care? And the answer, of course, was
(31:33):
yes, you know, everybody should have long term care unless you
want to deplete every single ounce of money that you've
earned over a lifetime because it's expensive to care as you
get to a certain age and you have certain medical conditions
or. And so, you know, I talk, I talk
about that a lot to a lot of different friends and family
members. And I'm on the board of
Alzheimer's for the state of Maryland.
(31:55):
So I learn about a lot of different things that, you know,
I'm Privy to from looking at different research and that kind
of thing. And Maryland happens to be one
of the top in the country for Alzheimer's.
So we're small state, but we have a very large population
with Alzheimer's. And a lot of it from the
research looks like diet and exercise and those kinds of
(32:19):
things. But you know, it's so important
to understand what your needs are, if you need that kind of
care and, and what that level ofcare costs.
And I, you know, I talk about that to different people and I,
I tell people why you're you're young, you know, get some long
term care. It's inexpensive when you're
younger. And look at that and see what
(32:40):
you might need. You know, one in three people
become, I think, disabled in a lifetime.
And so it's important to look atthat and make sure that you have
some kind of coverage so that you're being cared for in a kind
and compassionate way. Yeah.
And one in three adults over theage of 80 have Alzheimer's.
That's correct. That's a staggering statistic.
(33:00):
It is staggering, but they are making strides.
I have seen some research with some new drugs that are coming
out on the market that are really being quite effective so
that that's positive and you know, we're excited to see where
that goes. There's been some really great
new drugs that are coming out that I think are really going to
be super helpful for slowing theprocess down any day.
(33:21):
We hope to have any kind of research that changes that.
Yeah, yeah, it's terrible and scary disease for sure.
Talking about the end game too. What design elements can
directly support that phase? So people are living with
dignity, safety and comfort in those situations.
So one of the things that I found in a most of the
communities that I've visited, and I've visited many, many
(33:44):
communities over the States is that, you know, you have fire
doors and you have fire ratings and things that you have to
have. But an Alzheimer's patient who's
walking, they're walking a lot, they're moving around a lot.
There's a phase that they go through where they're touching
everything, looking at everything, walking up and down
the corridors constantly. But if they're locked in the
(34:06):
room, some of them can't even figure out how to open their
door because the doors are too heavy.
So, you know, there's just thesesimple little magnets that you
can put that can keep the door open so that you don't have to
feel locked in your room. But it still has the fire rated
door. So there's all these different
things that you can do. And you can buy that little
(34:27):
magnet for like I think it's $30online.
I recommend it to everyone, by the way.
And you know, it's just super helpful for making the person
feel like they're not locked in to their room without anybody
peeking in on them and being able to to see that they're OK.
You know, one thing I've learned, staff is super busy
(34:47):
because every level of care is needed.
Once you're in memory care, you've got the people walking
around, you've got the people chatting with you.
And then you have the people that are basically some unable
to talk, some able to, unable tofeed themselves, some unable to
bathe and get themselves dressedor need help figuring out how to
(35:08):
get dressed in the morning, you know, or getting undressed for
night. There's so many different levels
of care and the staff is stretched and they're stretched
thin every single day. And so anything that you can do
as a family member to help out is, is greatly appreciated.
So, you know, from a design standpoint, I think I love that
(35:29):
magnet. I also like keeping things very
simple. When you get to memory care,
it's about keeping things simplified.
Not too many items in the room, not too many accessories, not
too many breakable things because they will break, they
will touch them, they will fall on the floor and break.
So really, keeping things simplified from a design
standpoint is really best. Looking towards the future too,
(35:53):
well, I guess now into the future we could say what are
some of the most exciting innovations or trends that
you're seeing that are influencing senior living
interiors now and into the future?
A lot of digitized things movinginto the technology of things.
You know, the one thing that youfind with seniors as they
decline the ability to use theirphone and how that translates
(36:15):
into feeling connected to their family, There's just so many new
trends coming out and computers and Zoom.
You know, it's really great to be able to FaceTime or Zoom and
see your loved one. And we want to make Zoom Rooms.
And we want to make, you know, you can have different people in
the community show you, you know, set it up for you, get it
(36:35):
ready for you and to give you that connection so that if
somebody can't visit you and they're out of state, this gives
you that you feel like you're being there in the same room
with them. It just feels really special.
So those took technology things are super, super vital to
keeping a senior living person happy and feeling connected.
(36:56):
You're saying a physical zoom room?
A room they. Would go into we're setting up a
lot of those and not just regular market rate communities,
but also in the senior living. They love them, they're super
popular. People can help you do it.
It's really easy to do. You can have the person at the
community set up the zoom with your family members.
You can set them up pretty regularly and then a person
(37:17):
comes and gets you brings you into the Zoom room or you can
just do a simple FaceTime. But you know, most of the time
they need help setting all of that up or getting it going.
But it really it really helps them feel connected and they
don't feel abandoned. So I think those are really
important technology things thatare really kind of moving
forward for seniors. My last question for you, there
were two innovations you had already mentioned the creating
(37:38):
mini marts in the community as well as better lighting
automation. Are there other things that you
think are missing in modern senior communities?
More lighting developers have tospend more money on the
lighting. I know they they want to reduce
it because of cost, but that is one thing you really, really
need to do is add additional lighting.
Seniors have a hard time seeing their eyesight's declining, and
(38:02):
it's a fact through any ophthalmologist or optometrist
that the better light that you have, the more you feel like you
can accomplish things. And so it's really important to
get good lighting in the units, not just the community.
That's great, my. Number one, yeah.
Marcy, thank you so much for such a great conversation.
Where can our audience go to learn more about MSA Interiors
(38:24):
or connect with you? We're certainly online at
msainteriors.com and we'll happyto answer any questions anyone
has. Feel free to reach out.
Our contact is right on our website and and we're happy to
share any of that information. What about designer Bank?
Is that going to have a separateURL or is that on the?
(38:44):
Same. It's going to be
designerbank.com. It has not launched yet.
So we're looking at anywhere from three to six months until
we launch that and we'll have itup on our website when we do
launch. Awesome.
Yeah. And we'll, we'll add it to the
show notes as soon as it goes live to I want people to be able
to find that. Awesome.
As we wrap up today's episode, Iwant to extend a huge thank you
to you, Marcy Sagal, for joiningus and sharing your rich
(39:07):
insights on what it truly means to design for dignity,
functionality, and connection. From rethinking materials to
creating spaces that feel like home, your work is changing the
conversation around what senior living can and should feel like.
So if you want to learn more about MSA Interiors or connect
with Marcy directly, we've included her LinkedIn and
company website in the show notes.
(39:28):
As always, we hope you found this episode insightful and
inspiring. Don't forget to subscribe to our
podcast on your favorite platforms.
And stay tuned for more episodeswhere we continue to explore the
evolving world of senior care, covering everything from
innovative care models and leadership strategies to family
support technology in the futureof aging.
And also remember that From Leads to Leads isn't just an
(39:48):
audio experience. We're also a video podcast.
So if you want to see the video versions of our episodes, make
sure to subscribe to our YouTubeor Spotify channels.
I'm Jerry Vincey, CEO of CCR growth.
Thank you for joining us on FromLeads to Leases.
Please like, subscribe and sharethis episode with anyone who
might find it useful. I'm truly grateful for your time
and attention. So until next time, lead with
(40:09):
strategy and with heart. Chat with you again soon.
Thanks so much, Marcy. Thanks, Jerry.
I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me.
Thanks for listening to From Leads to Leases.
Are you ready to fill your roomsfaster and increase occupancy?
Visit ccrgrowth.com to learn about our Senior Growth
Innovation Suite, a proven system to generate highly
(40:29):
qualified tour ready leads, accelerate sales and reduce
acquisition costs. Let's connect and turn your
challenges into opportunities. See you next.
Time.
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