January 25, 2023 • 52 mins
Carol’s focus on college admissions continues with a favorite from the archives: her convo with Eric Furda and Jacques Steinberg, authors of The College Conversation. Eric, the former Dean of Admissions at the University of Pennsylvania, and Jacques Steinberg, an award-winning education journalist, share their expert advice on how your teen should be applying to college from start to finish, and how you can engage and offer support. They break down “The C’s” that students should look for as they research colleges: Culture, Curriculum, Community, Conclusions, and Cost. Carol’s expansive conversation with Jacques and Eric also covers best practices for freshman success, and even what to do if your child wants to transfer. Listen to lessen the stress as your family moves through a new chapter of your teen’s life. Follow @GroundControlParenting and visit www.groundcontrolparenting.com See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Ground Control Parenting. I'm the creator
and your host, Carol Sutton Lewis. I wanted to finish
up the college admissions conversations we've been having this month
with a favorite from the archives, featuring two more college
admissions experts. This conversation was taped in one so you'll
hear a bit about how the pandemic was more directly
impacting the process. But there's so much timeless, great advice
(00:28):
in this episode I just had to bring it back,
So let's get started today. I am thrilled to welcome
two great guys, a team of experts to talk about
the subject near and dear to so many parents, the
college admissions process. Jaques Steinberg is the New York Times
bestselling author, a former New York Times education journalist, and
(00:48):
a member of the board of the National Association for
College Admissions Counseling, and he's also provided his college emissions
expertise during several appearances on The Today Show. Eric Ferda
spent decades immersed in college admissions process, first as the
executive director of Admissions at Columbia University and then there's
a Dean of Admissions of the university of Pennsylvania, and
(01:09):
now Eric has taken his talent to the other side
of the process as he's joined the college counseling team
at William Penn Charter School in Philadelphia. These two college
admissions experts have banded together to write a College Conversation,
a practical companion for parents to guide their children along
the path to higher education, which was published last fall.
(01:29):
Welcome to Ground Control Parenting, Jacques and Eric. Thank you, Carol,
Thanks for having us Carol, great to be with you again. Yes,
it's so great to have you both here. Eric, we
have known each other for quite some time and have
worked together over the years to help parents and students
feel more comfortable about the college emissions process. And I
had the pleasure of meeting Jacques through Eric when you
(01:50):
both asked me to chat with you about some of
the issues you were focusing on in your book, The
College Conversation. This is a really great book that provides
parents with a step by step approach to having important
conversations during the college admissions process, and some of them
can be really tough. With less stress and more success,
and I want to spend time talking about all the
(02:11):
helpful guidance that you give parents on how to support
their children as they navigate their way to college. But
before we do, I just like to take a few
minutes at the start to talk about the potentially more
stressful conversations parents and children are having these days as
they focus on college plans during the pandemic. So let's
just start there. I'm curious to hear your impressions of
(02:32):
the impact of this, this current circumstance on both the
process for the people on the inside, the college admissions
and directors and the high school counselors, and then the
impact on the students. And starting with the people on
the inside, are the fundamentals the same despite the differences
in the way that students have to approach the process.
(02:53):
I'll start with you Eric, Well, well, thank you. And
you know, there is so much within the framing your question,
which is fantastic because you know, you're recognizing that they're
students and families. There's individuals on the high school side
as counselors, and then the individuals within the college admission
offices themselves, and and you asked about that group, you know,
(03:16):
just stepping out of the pend admission office at the
end of and making that transition and knowing you know,
the work that's in front of them, you know, working remotely,
having the committees convene, and so I would answer the
question as they're continuing their work in the same thoughtful
manner as they always have. I had experience, you know,
(03:38):
needing to do this remotely because we started that last March.
When we finished when I really think about it, was
a year ago, Carol, when we last stepped off of
the college you know campus at the University of Pennsylvania,
and so you know, some of the muscles have been
trained in order to do this work, and so I
think the fundamentals are still there, while obviously needing to
(03:59):
adjust to how work is getting accomplished. That is actually
good news, eric Um, because I think a lot of parents,
uh and students are really freaked out by the fact
that so much has changed. It's really important for them
to hear that the people that are in the Emissions
office are doing the same work that they always do,
which is looking at applications and trying to construct students profiles.
(04:22):
And just because they may not have as much of
one kind of information as they used to there, this
is what they're used to doing. Isn't that right, just
pulling students profiles together, Yes, and needing to go through
the different components of the application. And Jack and I
actually go through the components of the application in the book.
So wait, and you can really put each layer on
top of each other. We call it a mosaic, right shock,
(04:44):
And that's that's what they're doing in the admission offices
right now. And Jock, let me ask you about your
thinking on how this is impacting UM students and parents
as they start to think about their approach, thinking about
parents of juniors who are just starting the process, but
they're starting it in such an unusual circumstance. Um, how
(05:05):
do you think that parents, and I'm focusing on parents
right now because that's our our listeners, how do you
think that parents should um calm their children with respect
to starting this process in this current circumstance. Well, and
first of all, is just to be honest that this
is already a bewildering process for families of of high
(05:26):
school juniors and younger and and we've just layered a
pandemic on top of it, a pandemic that is ongoing.
So I think first just acknowledging it's really hard, and
if it feels hard, UM, that that's a normal response
and UH, and and that that should be recognized. UM.
On the other hand, there are some things that should
(05:47):
give you comfort. First of all, Eric's point, UM that
you know, standardized test scores may be test optional. UM.
You may not have uh immediately completed extracurricular activities. UM,
you may not have been in a physical classroom. And
yet we heard Eric say that the fundamentals of this
process are the same. UM. Admissions officers are gonna work
(06:09):
extra hard uh to really get a sense of the
whole student, that holistic process that mosaic Eric mentioned, and
so that should give families confidence. Another thing that should
give them confidence is that, UM, the colleges have really
rallied in terms of putting online resources UH tours, information sessions,
(06:30):
opportunities for chat and and they've really up to their game.
And so it is possible to take the measure of
a school online in ways that would not possible a
year ago. And then I would say the third thing
to give comfort is that we all have to take
the long view. If you're a junior in high school, UM,
you're talking about entering college. No sooner than the fall
(06:51):
of and we're talking about a four year experience. So
I hope that while recognizing that something hard uh seems
even harder um, that there are lots of reasons to
just sort of bring calm and confidence to this as well.
That that's that's a great shock. You know, you're you're
mentioning that the colleges have really done an incredible job
(07:14):
of moving a lot of their visiting experience online. Reminds
me that there may be some ways that parents and
students can use the online process together. I mean, normally
we would say go visit the schools, and and normally
now parents would leave that to the student. But might
it not be a good idea for parents and students
(07:35):
to sit together in front of the computer and pretend
they're on a college visit. Well, one of one of
my favorite parts of the College Conversation is when you,
Carol describe visiting a campus with your daughter and the
dynamic that you both have, and it's unbelievably instructive in
terms of your respective roles and things you did together
and and things that you did separately. And and we
(07:57):
talk a lot at the front of the book in
part inspired by you about parents and child UM sort
of co creating ground rules, UM guard rails and boundaries,
and so this is a perfect example. Are you going
to take a virtual tour together or are you going
to take them separately and compare notes? Are you going
to attend that information session together and and sit their
(08:20):
shoulder to shoulder or are you each going to do
it on your own? Does your child want you to
do it at all? UM? These are absolutely the right questions,
and parent and child or adult and child can can
kind of figure out together. Just as a side note,
I would say to parents that are looking at this,
you still have to have a master calendar, because I've
been looking online and you have to actually sign up
(08:41):
for these things even though they're virtual. So the the
concept of UM planning out a trip. While you don't
have to leave your room, you do have to make
plans in terms of timing. So I love the concept
of parents sitting in another room and comparing notes. It's
I think it's always helpful, as it was when I
visited a physic with my children, to have another pair
(09:01):
of eyes, I mean not judging eyes, but just another
pair of eyes who will catch something that the student
might miss. So I like that idea, and and that
actually segways very nicely into one of my favorite things
in the book, which I talk about all the time,
which is the index what I call the Index Card Challenge,
which is a game that parents and students and their
children can play um and in terms of helping children
(09:27):
know themselves and and know the process and define their
expectations for college. Just so the parents listening, now, I
am not going to go through the entirety of this
wonderful book. You're going to have to go get this
book and read it on your own, as I highly
recommend you do. But I'm just gonna highlight a few
sections of the book that I found were particularly interesting
and helpful and novel ways to look at this process. So,
(09:48):
first of all, there are lots of interactive things in
the book, lots of activities you can do together, And
the first one is the Index Card Challenge. And Eric,
since this is sort of your baby, or at least
I first heard of it from you, why don't you
talk a little bit of about what that index card
um challenges? Certainly, and I think you should. You know,
you can coin that term. I love it. I've never
(10:09):
heard that your next card challenge, which so joqu and I.
You know, we we recognize the technology age that we're in,
but we like scribbling down notes. But it's this concept
of writing down your ideas when they come to you.
Maybe it's a parking lot idea that you need to
revisit later on. But this is really in the college conversation,
how we want both student and family members to really
(10:33):
imagine for themselves what their college experience, characteristics, attributes, as
we call them, just jot down, you know, free form
maybe six words, six ideas about what the college environment
that they hope to see themselves in as a student.
To do that, and Jock and I really discussed to
(10:55):
have them do this exercise separately, so that you know,
on one side of the room as a student with
an index card jotting down whatever the keywords and attributes
are for the college experience that they hope for, and
then the parent doing the same thing through the lens
of what they feel would be kind of the ideal
college experience. And in Prens, Jacques put you know, it's
(11:16):
it's not gonna be perfect, right, but the whole point
here is alignment. And we talk a great deal in
the college conversation about alignment. So when you come back
together with those index cards, you're gonna see some words
that are identical, some words that may have the same meaning,
they're just different ways of describing it. And then you know,
further down, maybe some ideas that are not in line
(11:40):
with each other, which is fine, this is a conversation starter,
but to understand what that starting point is like where
there's overlap, and in those points where maybe we need
to have a discussion later on because we're hoping for
two very different things. It's really the roughest of rough drafts.
It's it's associating its words and phrases and and one
(12:02):
of the things that I love that Eric embeds into
this exercise is do not write down the names of
specific colleges too early for that that don't come and
and don't write a description of a college so specifically
that it's obvious of what it is that it's it's
really just sort of attributes. I've thought a lot about
(12:23):
this index card challenge because I wish it had been
around when I was going through this process with my children,
and as I describe it to others, one of the
things that I suggest that parents and students uh do
independently is got down in addition to the attributes that
you'll be looking for or you'll be looking for for
your child, things that most excite you and most concern
(12:45):
you about the process. So, Eric, the next part of
this is you write this down and then you get
back together, and then you share them and and then
you kind of put them away for a while. Isn't
that right? I mean, you you hold onto them, you do.
And you know, Carol, what you have done with the
book book is exactly what Jack and I had hoped for.
You took a concept and you iterated on it in
a way that you know, also write down what it's
(13:08):
going to excite you the most. I mean, that's wonderful.
It's like thinking of the positive. It's like I am
really looking forward to whatever it is. And so you know,
that's what we hope for with our with our readers,
is that they're going to take this and just fly
with it in different directions. This is the first of
about a dozen activities that we have in the book,
(13:28):
but there's gonna be times later on where you may
need some grounding for ground control parenting, right you're gonna
have to come back with some grounding to say, Okay,
I'm really moving in a direction and I'm excited by it.
But then you're gonna check yourself just to say, Okay,
maybe I'm going in a different direction and that's what
research is about and that's fantastic. Or are you excited
(13:51):
about something that is actually leading you away from what
the goal really is? Because I had the greatest tour
guide wonderful, while did you really find that those other
pieces that really matter to you We're we're there? And
so maybe I'll just put it this way to sum
it up, is how relevant is that index card now
(14:12):
that you've changed, you've grown, you're going through this process.
Maybe some of those pieces have changed because of your
own learning, and that's wonderful. Recognize that it's great. One
other thing about this sharing of the index card early
on is that it encourages the beginning of a conversation.
If you the parents say I think they should they
(14:35):
really love a school that's really remote with a thousand students,
and the student says, I really want an urban campus
with with a thousand people in my class, as opposed
to in the school you're so early in the process
that you can talk about this non judgmentally. You're not
at loggerheads. You can just learn and parents, the thing
about this, you should really just listen. The point of
(14:56):
this is not so that your child here's what you think.
It's more so that so that you hear what your
child think. And I think and I think that that's
something that comes throughout the book that parents should really
listen to their children along the way. No, it's a
lot of these conversations starters are intended to be a
little bit one sided, and that you, as a parent
(15:17):
or another adult in a child's life, are going to
get that conversation going. And then as you say, um,
sort of hang back and listen. And yet we don't
again in the spirit of ground control parenting, UM, we
don't want you to abdicate your role as a parent.
You have life experience, UM, you know your child. UM,
you have a financial interest in this, and there may
(15:38):
be some financial boundaries. So UM, we we don't want
you to be passive. But but those those ground rules
that we talked about co creating at the beginning, UM,
can can facilitate I want to skip ahead to another
exercise in terms of beginning the college search. And that
is the famous Eric for to four seas, but it's
actually four plus one. See and these are the um
(16:03):
ways that parents can help their children navigate through the many,
many college Opsin's okay, you've you've gotten past the early
stages where you have a sense of what you might like,
and now you have to take a look at the
colleges that exist and figure out how you can pull
make your college list. So there are four sees that
that you guys have talked about in this book, UM,
(16:25):
that you can use as a as a guideline to
how how you should find your college. You can you
can split them up. I'll start with you, do you
want to talk about the first couple of seas? First
of all, it's important. We're going to talk about the
four seas and will divide and conquer. I'll do too,
and Eric will do too. UM. But families listening, they
(16:46):
should make these their own. UM. They can edit these
categories and they don't have to be so neat. Maybe
there's different letters that work better for them. But we
see this as sort of been initial framing as Eric
seit earlier, to make your own. So it's it's sort
of yardstick, a rude brick. As you are UM as
a young person looking at colleges and as a parent
(17:06):
helping support that process. And and these are UM categories
that you can look at colleges against and start to differentiate.
So the first C is culture UM. What is the
history and mission of that institution? UM? How does that
mission resonate with your child as a potential applicant today? UM?
How does that mission resonate on campus today? So as
(17:30):
you start to look at colleges, UM, they can look
a lot alike when you look at something like culture UM,
at least as we've defined it, Suddenly they start to
look a little bit different. And and as in the
spirit of the index card, you can keep a record
of your impressions, your child can, whether it's on a
legal pad, index card, spreadsheet, Google dot, your phone, whatever works. UM.
(17:54):
The second C is curriculum. And we're really talking about
beyond the listing of majors and programs that a school offers,
or even whether certain courses are required, what's the design
and aim of the courses your child might take over
four years. As you start to look at curriculum as
defined by that suddenly colleges start to look different, some
(18:16):
will start to pop um, some will start to fall.
And I will throw to my co author for the
the sees three and s four will before i've before
we get to the second two seas, I want to
a couple of questions about the questions about UM the
first two culture, which makes all the sense in the
(18:37):
world that the vibe of the campus, the way the
students interact, the way it feels, is something that students
can't get at this very moment. And so I've been
thinking about what some other ways of of getting a
sense of the culture. Clearly you'll be able to look online,
and too many universities credits. They have put a lot
of resources into trying to uh, trying to display their culture,
(19:02):
trying to give students a sense of what it's like.
But but what are some of the other ways that
a student can can sort of sense culture. Maybe they
can reach out to current students or I mean, it's
it's a harder thing to do virtually, don't you think. Yeah? So,
I mean my background is as a journalist, and I
would encourage young people and parents to be very journalistic.
(19:24):
Your freeze reach out UM, you may have to do
some leg work online, but think of the conversations you
could have online with Pick your student organization that you're
particularly interested in. UM. Maybe this is an institution that
says that it really does a great job on inclusion
(19:45):
and and and diversity and equity. UM, Well let's test
them on that. There are probably a series of organizations
you could reach out to. Your child could reach out
to UM, have a FaceTime call, have a zoom call,
ask your questions as if you were and no, you're
not going to have that serendipitous bump into somebody in
the cafeteria and ask them a question. UM. But it's
(20:08):
possible to learn a lot through technology. UM. Also, we're
hopeful that UM by the spring of two UM as
students have received admissions decisions, including acceptances, perhaps it will
be possible then perhaps it will be possible in the
fall of twenty one to visit. But if you're willing
(20:30):
to work a little bit harder and and use technology
to reach out, I would argue that you could learn
a lot about culture UM as well as just as
a spoiler alert, a sea that is coming up community
which is very related to to culture. Same thing UM
that sort of journalistic outreach can teach you a lot.
And and that is a great segue to you Eric
(20:51):
to talk about the other two seas. So I think
that's a great segue that Jacques set up and that
the seas are interconnected and culture and curriculum, you know,
can come together in some ways. As an example, while
there's some subjects within the within the curriculum that all
students will take because it's building on the culture of
(21:12):
the institution, maybe it's a foundational course that all students
will take because it really feeds into the history and
makes it relevant today. Community. How often families do you
hear from admission offices that we admit students from the
round the world? Fifty States, Washington, d C, Puerto Rico,
A two countries are represented in the class. You know,
(21:34):
here's that the demographic background of the class. And that's
all you know. It's it's reporting, is it. It's helping individuals,
families understand where the student body is coming from. The
difference between that and community is Okay, you have all
these people, how are you going to help plan for
them actually to learn from and with one another? And
(21:56):
this is where we can't just leave it to chance.
And as Jacques said, we do want some erendipity and
we want those unplanned excursions to take place. While if
you think about the people who are on a campus
physically and even virtually, because that has to be established
as well, is what are the spaces, what are the programs,
(22:16):
what are the college houses like? You know, what is
that main place, the main green, the college green, the
steps in front of the library, the walk that goes
through the campus, pulling on places that I'm really familiar
with here is you know? And then how do those
individuals that have been admitted as a class come together?
And that's really the foundation of community and all the
(22:40):
relationships that you would like to see grow, not only
in the student body, but then also with the faculty.
How do you facilitate those interactions and that creates the
larger communities that a student will experience. So what's really
exciting for students is you kind of know what it
is that you're looking for. Some times on this particular
(23:01):
type of student, I'm going to look for the research labs.
I'm going to look for the music room. Jock is
looking for, you know, the newspaper, and you know, as
you continue to grow, it becomes the newspaper and the
lab and and that's what we really want to see happen.
And so community is not fixed. It does have that
(23:22):
growth mindset, and we hope that students will expand their
circles and their communities as they go through their four years.
And and in terms of questions, you can ask doing
this sort of journalistic due diligence, hey, what sort of
community is this? Whether you're inditionally starting your due diligence
online and eventually in person, how supportive is that community?
Is it cutthroat or is it kind? Um? How happy
(23:46):
are the students? I mean there are campuses that that
tend to be some happier than others. Obviously you can't
over generalize, and but just by asking a range of
students questions like that, are students helpful to each other
or competitive with each other? Or maybe it's some kind
of a mix um, How how supportive is the institution
(24:06):
if if you're struggling, Um, these are all I would
say expansions of that definition of community. And the fourth
C would be so the fourth seas conclusions. Families are
looking for outcomes, and you know this is a time investment.
It's a financial investment, it's an emotional investment as an
(24:29):
investment in so many different dimensions. And you want to
have a sense of, you know, what opportunities are there
beyond graduation, certainly, and so you could think about statistics
of graduate school placement jobs right out of graduation, look
at alumni surveys five, fifteen, twenty years later, you know,
(24:49):
so you have more of a longitudinal sense of what
the graduates are doing. And I would actually bring it
even closer in particularly as you're taking a look at
schools and thinking about what's the And this goes to
what joacqu was saying before about the wellness of students
as well. What's the retention rate from your first year
of college to the second year of college? How many
students are returning? A lot of the national statistics, most
(25:12):
of the federal data on graduation rates are after six years,
six years. I mean, many families, Carol that are listening
to your podcast right now aren't thinking six years. They're like, honey,
you know, son, you're graduating after four years. So how
realistic is that under the best of circumstances, And you know,
(25:32):
really looking at those markers to see what those conclusions are,
outcomes are for many students and families. And where do
you find that information? Is it on the website quite often?
And Jacques and I reference students to the Common Data Set,
which is a rich data set that is collected. And
(25:53):
if you just put it in the name of any
school that you're looking at and put in Common Data Set,
there's there's data around graduation rates. There's also if you'd
like to see a larger then instead of going school
by school, federal database from the National Center for Education Statistics.
And if you pull up the n c e S
(26:16):
data right now, you're going to see cohorts that entered
in two thousand thirteen. So you're gonna be looking at this.
I just ran this data and I see two thousand thirteen.
I must have done something wrong. No, you haven't, because
they're reporting out six year graduation rates and it lags
a little bit with federal data being collected. So that's
a national database that families can look to. You know,
(26:39):
it strikes me that this is information that's really helpful
for parents because your your child may not be as
focused on this as a as an issue that should
be of great concern, but if you're helping him or
her sort through a lot of different options. If they
are indifferentness to several schools and one of them has
a really low rate of students going from the first
(27:00):
to the second year successfully, that's a data point that
needs to be talked about. And so this might be
an area where parents can actually dive in on their
own to get this information. Here's this instance where parents
can actually do some helpful journalistic digging on their own
and and also bring that parent perspective of of of
knowing that the long view is important return on investment.
(27:22):
There are colleges in this country where three of every
four students don't graduate in six years, let alone four.
That data is knowable and a student might not pay
attention to it um but we as parents can bring
it at least to their attention. Do you look look
at the odds of graduating and that's a really good
It's a really good time to do this now, because
(27:44):
you're not saying to your child you won't be able
to get out of this school in this number of
years because of something you're doing, but more that this
school has a for whatever reason, students are having trouble
with this so it's actually it helps the child begin
to think of this college experience as something that they're
actually going to be doing and their parents has faith
in them to do. But but that there are other
(28:05):
forces that interfere. So it's it's actually it's a good
part of the conversation to have before you're narrowing it
down to one or two schools. We'll be right back
after these messages. Welcome back to the show. So now
I'm going to ask about that fifth. See. Let's see
that the four plus C and that is costs, which
(28:27):
for every parent who is sending a child to school,
that that for them may be the first see. But
we talked about this in your book. This is one
of the things I talked with you about that the
importance of having these conversations with your child early on
to talk about costs openly. How should a student be
looking at the costs and and what should the family
(28:48):
do together about them? Yeah, and and as you point out,
just because we're ranking this the fifth or the fourth
plus one um, we know that for so many families
it's the number one one. See, it's the number one factor.
It's a luxury um to not worry about cost. And
this may be the first time in the life of
(29:08):
your family that you've had a conversation about money. UM,
that that you, as a parent or adults in their
life have talked about what your earnings are, what your
savings are, what you're willing to spend on college in
addition to what you've saved for it, what your expectation
is from your child and UM, really really difficult conversation
(29:29):
to have, but but the right moment to have it early. UM.
It would be heartbreaking for a student to get far
down the line in terms of falling in love with
a particular college that's never going to be realistic from
a financial perspective. So having those guidelines and guard rails
and really educating yourselves early about colleges that have need
(29:52):
based aid and and merit based aid. You know, aid
based on um your financial wherewithal versus aid based on
how you may have performed in school or performed on tests,
and and knowing which schools offer which um uh, the
difference between an in state public university and what that
(30:12):
expense might be I'm compared to a private institution and
so UM difficult important to have early. So let me
ask you guys about this debate, which you actually raised
in in your book about the the On the one hand,
(30:34):
you have the value of a liberal art education, and
parents should encourage their children to learn for learning sake
and to not not enter college and spend every moment
of college trying to figure out what kind of job
you're going to get, because the goal is to expand
your mind and it's it's it's a wonderful place to
(30:54):
do that, versus the reality of, uh, you're going into
debt to have this education. You should have some sense
of what your aspirations are going out in very early
stages before you even go in, to have a sense
of how large a debt you're going to end up
with and whether that should impact what school you go to.
(31:16):
I mean, you you referenced someone in the book that
sort of talked about it was such a privilege and
a luxury to be able to not think about what
job you wanted. But but as as one who benefited
from a liberal arts education, I strongly um I am
not as much in favor of having to decide ahead
of time that you have to get a job that
(31:37):
pays X and that coloring your entire college career. How
do you guys think about this? But I think some
of this goes to the start of the book that
that Jack and I as we were discussing the outline
for the college conversation is we questioned at the beginning
why college, And so we didn't die right into okay,
(32:01):
this is you know, even before the index card, it
was really thinking about, you know, what are the options
for an individual who's leaving high school, leaving secondary school
and recognizing the multiple paths that are available. And so
by the time you get to this, you know, I'm
going to college, it's going to be a four year college.
(32:22):
What do I study? You already have some sense that
the experience matters. Yes, they're still gonna be conclusions, outcomes,
return on investment, but you've already had this mindset that
this is what I want to pursue because I do
understand that the future is completely uncertain and that there's
a value to this education that's going to be durable
(32:45):
and not so specific. Training. And we talk about training,
We talk about technical institutions as an opportunity to go
into you know, jobs that you could see them right now.
I wish I had some of them as we're like
living at home and doors are breaking and water is
coming through the like everything that's happening. And because the
real skills, while also thinking about through a four year degree,
(33:10):
there's going to be courses that are more more practical.
The liberal arts and sciences has utilitarian value to it.
Now on top of that, you may know how to
code or have some other skill set. It's the combination
of both that we think is going to be the
most durable and and at least we want families to
(33:31):
talk about this early. And the three of us are
our products of a liberal arts education, and it taught
us arguably how to think, how to write, how to
ask questions, how to be a citizen. UM, you know,
as a history major, which taught me how to write
and prepared me for a career in journalism nonfiction writing. UM.
(33:52):
I think that it's important though as as families look
at the fifth se cost um. If a student no
is that they are interested in engineering, UM, that they've
got that passion heading in UM to the extent it's
possible to know as an eighteen year old UM that
can inform how much debt UH that the student and
(34:13):
family might want to take on because it's knowable what
those careers pay in the first five years out of college,
and you can build that into your financial UM. If
you are thinking, UM that you want to do something
that's a little softer UH teaching UH journalism. UM, that
knowledge and what the income might be in the first
five years can also inform the cost and and maybe
(34:36):
that steers you toward a particular institution because UM, knowing
what you're going to have to pay back that debt
UM will will inform choices. So it's we certainly we
want to be practical UM in terms of of of
job prospects. And it's Charlie Javis from UH and an
(34:57):
organization called Frank who is really articulate in the book
on this about looking at potential careers and and for
those listening students or parents or students, UM, if your
child has no idea what they want to study in college,
that's more than okay, that's in large part the purpose
of that education. UM. But but some really do and
(35:17):
and some of these data points can be helpful on cost.
So just to wrap this up, it really seems that's
so valuable to have these cost conversations, these college cost
conversations early, even though they're uncomfortable, even though, as you said,
it might be the first time. And I would encourage
parents not to be defensive about this or you know,
(35:39):
some people feel like what they make and how much
they have is Many people feel it's very private and
you're sharing this information, um reluctantly, but sharing your the
sharing the information about your your thinking about the costs
and what you can afford, can be really helpful, not
only to help choose you're going, but if the student
(36:01):
understands that its family is making an investment in their education,
it might motivate them on those days in college when
they have to decide where they really feel like doing
something or not. But I do think it's healthy and
practical for them to have some understanding that there's there's
an investment being made, which, um, you're mature enough to
be a part of understanding. And you may if you're
(36:23):
working on campus for work study or whatever, you may
have to take a role in paying for the education.
So it's again, I think it's really great to start
this before you're looking at the acceptance and dealing with
the reality of a particular school. So we're gonna throw
We're gonna throw a little curveball into this on you, Carol,
because came up with a six C. Okay, so this
(36:47):
is a temporary ce. But the six C is probably
the coronavirus sadly, And so as you think about the
rubric of of things that you're looking at, community, culture,
cost inclusions, UM, curriculum. UM, how about throwing in a
category sadly for for juniors and and families of juniors. UM.
(37:09):
What are the various ways that the coronavirus helps you
size up a college or university? It may be something
as basic as their admissions policies. We are now test
optional for this fall, um. But also UM, this may
have changed your calculation as a family in terms of distance.
You know, a year ago we were happy to get
(37:29):
on that six hour plane ride. But you know, knowing
what we know now, maybe that four hour car ride
as the radius. So it shouldn't dominate, UM, the conversation,
but it certainly could be a factor. How how strict
is that campus expecting to be in the fall in
terms of on campus learning? UM. Maybe it makes you
(37:51):
rethink that that university with the eighty thousand uh capacity
football stadium UM, or maybe it doesn't. Maybe you're making
that long view that we talked about at the outset
and and Okay, for the first year, I can weather
it and and then hopefully will all sort of be
the clear. But at least um to note it, to
(38:11):
surface it, to to elevate it. It's an unfortunate six seed,
but I think it's really important. Families have been together
for a year and it may really have changed the dynamic.
Everything looks a little different, and so it's really important
to figure out how that impacts the college process. The
final thing I want to talk about is um something
(38:33):
that you raise in your book, and it's so under
discussed in the college application process, and it's the transition process.
It's the fact that once you're in, you're not done.
I mean you're once you even made the decisions where
you're going, there's still, as you guys say in the book,
a bit of a road from that day after you
(38:53):
know where you're going to college to the end of
your first year. Eric, You've you've you've been on outside.
Is it true that colleges really do watch what happens
after they admit you. You can't just like stop the
next day and stuff going to class absolutely and the
you know, there's two frames here. You know, one is
(39:14):
we want students to be ready once they enter college.
And so they've made it this far, it's not time
to completely let down. Uh maybe some deceleration, they've been stressed.
We want to recognize that. Wild also, let let's finish
the year out and and make sure that you're ending
on on on a high note. The other piece here,
(39:35):
and then I'll turn to Jacques because the the full
transition was really you know, something that he ran with
is you know, in the stage of social media and
a lot of families, tens of thousands of families not
celebrating those students who were admitted, but thinking about those
that were not admitted. You know, just making sure that
students from a discipline side, And this is big in
(39:56):
the news right now. The common application won't have discipline
question on the application anymore, uh, starting with with next
year's platform. So you know, we're just making sure that
that students, as they're continuing to live their young lives,
that you know, some mistakes that they make that get
amplified through social media, that they're not now jeopardizing something
(40:19):
that they work so hard for I actually want to
just pick up on that for just a second, because
it's two things. I mean, social media. You can tell
your children social media is not your friend when you
are in this process, any part of the process. And
so there are two things. One sort of being a
responsible citizen. You should not um crow or I mean,
(40:40):
you should really take your life experiences. Um you should
think very carefully about how you display what's happening for
you know, under the knowing well that it is not
happening the same for everyone else. But also, it's not
just you and your social media. Since it's social, it's public.
People can take what you have put on your social
(41:01):
media and send it to the admissions office. And they do,
and so students do and parents do. I mean this
it's it's it's amazing and and and it's kind of
sad but true that just because they think all of
their friends are cool and nobody would wrap them out.
It's the universe is much bigger than um just your
(41:24):
friends and um. The fury of a parent who for
whom his child it didn't work out is is big.
So so just no, I mean you can parents, you
can tell your children that this actually happens. It's it's
not a myth. But um, Jock, do you want to
talk a little bit more about the transition process, what
(41:45):
else parents can do to help? Yeah, I mean we
we wanted to make sure we we say at the
point in the book where your child finds out where
they're going to college makes their deposit, um, that they
as parents are not done with Eric and me yet,
and that we want to be there with them through
the end of the first year. Um. We want to
(42:06):
arm you as parents to be able to sort your child,
support your child through that summer before they go away,
then while they actually go away, and and to be
checking in again. Co create rules on when are you
going to check in? How are you going to check in?
No one knows your child as well as you do. Um,
you're gonna hear things on the phone. You're going to
see things facetiming and zooming. UM about that will give
(42:29):
you a sense of how they're doing. Are they feeling overwhelmed?
Are they happy? Are are they sad? Are they depressed?
And in particular, um, when they come home at Thanksgiving
or Christmas, Um, they may well say to you that
they're not happy to the point that they want to
transfer and UM. Eric and I spend some time in
the book UM talking about what we call the transfer conversation.
(42:53):
Really some some prompts to ask your child to get
a sense of whether, UM, it's a case that they
haven't made friends, or they haven't found the right activity,
or or maybe this isn't quite the right situation for them.
You make the best decision you can as a student
and family with the choices you have in the information
you have, but ultimately you can't know before you go.
(43:16):
And UM and I am the parent of a transfer
and there are many of us out there, There are
many transfer students. I think it's certainly possible, Eric, that
as a result of the sixth CE the coronavirus UM,
that there may be more students chanceering because the they
didn't have the opportunity to visit places, or maybe they
chose to stay close to home the first year, maybe
(43:39):
they chose UM Community College and what have you. And
we rarely wanted to arm families from what we describe
as the transfer conversation. And it's important for those listening
to know transfer is not failure, Transfer is empowering and
UH and sometimes UM, your child changes from the moment
they put in that deposit to the moment they show
(44:00):
up on campus or maybe as a result of being
on campus. This is a teenage brain, um and and
a teenage person and so um, it was really important
to us to to to have families know that that's
a potential outcome and and it's one that can be
worked through. You guys have a really helpful list of
(44:22):
kinds of conversations that parents should be having with their
children about this transition, and and one that really rung
true to me was defining failure and success. So many
of us, you know, our children worked so hard in
high school, and they they go off with an expectation
that they're going to do as well in college as
they did in high school. If they're going to a
(44:44):
very academically rigorous college, they're gonna be surrounded by people
who all expect to be at the top of their class.
So invariably there's going to be a point at which
they're going to find out that they're not the smartest
person in the room. If they ever were, they are
not now. Um And I'm I think it's really helpful
for parents to be able to send their children off
(45:04):
with an understanding that failure and success as they have
viewed it in high school, it's different in college. I
mean there there's it has as much to do with
your work outside the classroom as it does in the classroom. Um.
Having said that, though, I would also say that it's
helpful to have a conversation when you can set some
sort of expectations, and I don't mean specific grade expectations,
(45:26):
but an expectation that the purpose in college is to
do the absolute best you can, the best effort. Um.
I think some parents are so relieved that this process
is over and they send their child off and everybody's
all smiles, and it becomes tough if the child doesn't
do as well as they thought, and they they don't
want to tell their parents it. It becomes complicated. And
(45:47):
that Actually there's one other thing I want to say
before I ask you guys about this. It's really important
that early on after your child is in that you
have the conversation about access to two things medical records
and grades. Now, every student has the ability to not
give you access. They do not have to, and so
I would suggest happiness conversation when everybody's very happy, and
(46:10):
and write not before not as you're dropping them off.
And I say that because, well, the medical one is
pretty easy. I mean, you know, it's it's a terrible
thing that you can't know when your child is sick
because the rules are they can't contact you unless the
child is gives you permission, and God forbid the child
be unable to do that. But the great thing I
(46:30):
personally speaking, I insisted that all my children give me access.
I never took it. The goal was not to see
how they were doing, but if they had gotten into
any real trouble to your point, shock, if they got depressed,
if there was something that was really if I couldn't
get from them what was troubling them, it's really helpful
from a parent's perspective to know what's going on, and
not having access to any of the information can be
(46:52):
very frustrating. Well, I think the the the continuum of
secondary school to college through this len of the transition.
But then also another guard rail that Jocque and I
always talk about is, and you framed it perfectly, Carol,
is what are the expectations? And it really is about
not just showing up but doing the best that you can.
(47:15):
And that may sound like a luxury position to have
everything's not gonna happen just because you put the best
effort in. But that is the expectation, and then the
other pieces to follow. Let let's face it, all the
greats in science in writing the number of times our
book was edited, and I'm not putting up in that
in that category. The reality is most things don't work
(47:37):
out the first, second, third, fourth, fifth time. And I
know in the final maybe seven to eight years that
I was at ten just trying to convince a group
of high achieving students who had those types of expectations
that you know you're going to stumble and that may
be reflected in a grade that may be reflected and
(47:58):
not getting into the accap hell group that you wanted
to get into, or you know, some other group that
you really strive for. So it really is a challenge though,
and this is where all you know, take so much
responsibility being in college admissions for such a long period
of time, is we set a certain expectation that you're
going to do these things you get into college, and
(48:19):
then we say, okay, it's all right, Uh, no, failure
is okay, but just don't get enough okay, right, And
so as adults, we have to, you know, really think
about what it is that we're trying to communicate and
make sure that our children and that young people had
that understanding that it doesn't always work out. Mm hmmm,
yeah no. And then the flip side that is, the
(48:40):
schools have a lot of resources and we can encourage
our children to use them. Um a lot of resources
to help with the school expects that not everybody is
going to get everything their tutoring programs. There's academic resources
and that's another one of the things that you guys
talk about in terms of success and failure. Well, guys,
you know, we've only covered just the team bit of
your book, but it's it's a really such a wonderful resource.
(49:03):
I was thrilled to be a part of it, a
teeny part of it. But you guys have done such
a good service because it's lovely to have a guide
to know what questions to ask. We don't know what
we don't know, and so you guys have done a
great job in helping us figure that out. And now
I'm gonna wrap it up, but I'm going to ask
you guys to please lay my GCP bonus round. I
(49:25):
have two quick questions. One is and and you know
you can divide these up. You can divide them up
amongst the two of you. A favorite poem and two
favorite children's books? Does anyone have a favorite poem? Jacques
the writer that you are. Yeah, it's it's a little
bit of a cliche poem, but it's so apropos to
what we're talking about here. The Robert Frost. Uh, you know,
(49:46):
stopping by woods on a snowy evening, you know, two
two roads diverged in the in the wood. And uh,
we're talking about choices and and and possibilities and and
what lays that, you know, what, what lies down various
acts and that that that poem has has always spoken
to me, as has has Robert Frost in particular. That's great,
(50:07):
that's great. Eric. Would you like to submit a poem
or a contribute a poem? Or do you want to
talk about children's books? You have littler one so you
may be closer to the children's book arena. That's right. Well,
actually for for a poem, and I know it's used
usually for other circumstances. It's become adopted to be used
for other circumstances. But Ryan Hold neighbor. You know in
(50:29):
this college process, you know, God give me the strength.
I think that applies in a lot of different ways
in life and what we're facing right now with life.
So again, know that it was adopted for other circumstances,
but I think we need that strength every day. And
you know, thinking of books, maybe it's more of what
I enjoyed than my children. But Winnie the Pooh, you know,
(50:50):
the free loving tigger love, you know, the bouncy one.
And I just think all the personalities that come across
there are relevant today. Absolutely. You know, I had not
thought about When the po in a while, but you're
absolutely right. You've got Tigger bouncing off the walls. You've
got or who is just we're all or these days
(51:14):
I'm gonna have to pull that one off the shelf
and then look at it again. So I thank you
guys so much. Thank you for being with me. It's
so great to see you again. And best of luck.
With a college conversation, I urge everyone listening to get
a copy, even if you're not quite the college parent yet.
It talks about middle school. But thank you guys so much.
Thank you Carol. What a pleasure. You've been such great guests,
(51:38):
and I thank you so much, Eric and John for
taking the time to be here today. I hope everyone
listening enjoyed this conversation and that you'll come back for more.
Please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts,
and tell your friends. For more parenting info and advice,
please check out the Ground Control Parenting blog at ground
control parenting dot com. You can also find us on
(52:00):
Instagram and Facebook at ground Control Parenting and on LinkedIn
under Carol Sutton Lewis. The Ground Control Parenting with Carol
Sutton Lewis podcast is a part of the Seneca Women
Podcast Network in partnership with iHeartMedia. Until the next time,
take care and thanks for listening.
Hello, and welcome to Ground Control Parenting. I'm the creator
and your host, Carol Sutton Lewis. I wanted to finish
up the college admissions conversations we've been having this month
with a favorite from the archives, featuring two more college
admissions experts. This conversation was taped in one so you'll
hear a bit about how the pandemic was more directly
impacting the process. But there's so much timeless, great advice
(00:28):
in this episode I just had to bring it back,
So let's get started today. I am thrilled to welcome
two great guys, a team of experts to talk about
the subject near and dear to so many parents, the
college admissions process. Jaques Steinberg is the New York Times
bestselling author, a former New York Times education journalist, and
(00:48):
a member of the board of the National Association for
College Admissions Counseling, and he's also provided his college emissions
expertise during several appearances on The Today Show. Eric Ferda
spent decades immersed in college admissions process, first as the
executive director of Admissions at Columbia University and then there's
a Dean of Admissions of the university of Pennsylvania, and
(01:09):
now Eric has taken his talent to the other side
of the process as he's joined the college counseling team
at William Penn Charter School in Philadelphia. These two college
admissions experts have banded together to write a College Conversation,
a practical companion for parents to guide their children along
the path to higher education, which was published last fall.
(01:29):
Welcome to Ground Control Parenting, Jacques and Eric. Thank you, Carol,
Thanks for having us Carol, great to be with you again. Yes,
it's so great to have you both here. Eric, we
have known each other for quite some time and have
worked together over the years to help parents and students
feel more comfortable about the college emissions process. And I
had the pleasure of meeting Jacques through Eric when you
(01:50):
both asked me to chat with you about some of
the issues you were focusing on in your book, The
College Conversation. This is a really great book that provides
parents with a step by step approach to having important
conversations during the college admissions process, and some of them
can be really tough. With less stress and more success,
and I want to spend time talking about all the
(02:11):
helpful guidance that you give parents on how to support
their children as they navigate their way to college. But
before we do, I just like to take a few
minutes at the start to talk about the potentially more
stressful conversations parents and children are having these days as
they focus on college plans during the pandemic. So let's
just start there. I'm curious to hear your impressions of
(02:32):
the impact of this, this current circumstance on both the
process for the people on the inside, the college admissions
and directors and the high school counselors, and then the
impact on the students. And starting with the people on
the inside, are the fundamentals the same despite the differences
in the way that students have to approach the process.
(02:53):
I'll start with you Eric, Well, well, thank you. And
you know, there is so much within the framing your question,
which is fantastic because you know, you're recognizing that they're
students and families. There's individuals on the high school side
as counselors, and then the individuals within the college admission
offices themselves, and and you asked about that group, you know,
(03:16):
just stepping out of the pend admission office at the
end of and making that transition and knowing you know,
the work that's in front of them, you know, working remotely,
having the committees convene, and so I would answer the
question as they're continuing their work in the same thoughtful
manner as they always have. I had experience, you know,
(03:38):
needing to do this remotely because we started that last March.
When we finished when I really think about it, was
a year ago, Carol, when we last stepped off of
the college you know campus at the University of Pennsylvania,
and so you know, some of the muscles have been
trained in order to do this work, and so I
think the fundamentals are still there, while obviously needing to
(03:59):
adjust to how work is getting accomplished. That is actually
good news, eric Um, because I think a lot of parents,
uh and students are really freaked out by the fact
that so much has changed. It's really important for them
to hear that the people that are in the Emissions
office are doing the same work that they always do,
which is looking at applications and trying to construct students profiles.
(04:22):
And just because they may not have as much of
one kind of information as they used to there, this
is what they're used to doing. Isn't that right, just
pulling students profiles together, Yes, and needing to go through
the different components of the application. And Jack and I
actually go through the components of the application in the book.
So wait, and you can really put each layer on
top of each other. We call it a mosaic, right shock,
(04:44):
And that's that's what they're doing in the admission offices
right now. And Jock, let me ask you about your
thinking on how this is impacting UM students and parents
as they start to think about their approach, thinking about
parents of juniors who are just starting the process, but
they're starting it in such an unusual circumstance. Um, how
(05:05):
do you think that parents, and I'm focusing on parents
right now because that's our our listeners, how do you
think that parents should um calm their children with respect
to starting this process in this current circumstance. Well, and
first of all, is just to be honest that this
is already a bewildering process for families of of high
(05:26):
school juniors and younger and and we've just layered a
pandemic on top of it, a pandemic that is ongoing.
So I think first just acknowledging it's really hard, and
if it feels hard, UM, that that's a normal response
and UH, and and that that should be recognized. UM.
On the other hand, there are some things that should
(05:47):
give you comfort. First of all, Eric's point, UM that
you know, standardized test scores may be test optional. UM.
You may not have uh immediately completed extracurricular activities. UM,
you may not have been in a physical classroom. And
yet we heard Eric say that the fundamentals of this
process are the same. UM. Admissions officers are gonna work
(06:09):
extra hard uh to really get a sense of the
whole student, that holistic process that mosaic Eric mentioned, and
so that should give families confidence. Another thing that should
give them confidence is that, UM, the colleges have really
rallied in terms of putting online resources UH tours, information sessions,
(06:30):
opportunities for chat and and they've really up to their game.
And so it is possible to take the measure of
a school online in ways that would not possible a
year ago. And then I would say the third thing
to give comfort is that we all have to take
the long view. If you're a junior in high school, UM,
you're talking about entering college. No sooner than the fall
(06:51):
of and we're talking about a four year experience. So
I hope that while recognizing that something hard uh seems
even harder um, that there are lots of reasons to
just sort of bring calm and confidence to this as well.
That that's that's a great shock. You know, you're you're
mentioning that the colleges have really done an incredible job
(07:14):
of moving a lot of their visiting experience online. Reminds
me that there may be some ways that parents and
students can use the online process together. I mean, normally
we would say go visit the schools, and and normally
now parents would leave that to the student. But might
it not be a good idea for parents and students
(07:35):
to sit together in front of the computer and pretend
they're on a college visit. Well, one of one of
my favorite parts of the College Conversation is when you,
Carol describe visiting a campus with your daughter and the
dynamic that you both have, and it's unbelievably instructive in
terms of your respective roles and things you did together
and and things that you did separately. And and we
(07:57):
talk a lot at the front of the book in
part inspired by you about parents and child UM sort
of co creating ground rules, UM guard rails and boundaries,
and so this is a perfect example. Are you going
to take a virtual tour together or are you going
to take them separately and compare notes? Are you going
to attend that information session together and and sit their
(08:20):
shoulder to shoulder or are you each going to do
it on your own? Does your child want you to
do it at all? UM? These are absolutely the right questions,
and parent and child or adult and child can can
kind of figure out together. Just as a side note,
I would say to parents that are looking at this,
you still have to have a master calendar, because I've
been looking online and you have to actually sign up
(08:41):
for these things even though they're virtual. So the the
concept of UM planning out a trip. While you don't
have to leave your room, you do have to make
plans in terms of timing. So I love the concept
of parents sitting in another room and comparing notes. It's
I think it's always helpful, as it was when I
visited a physic with my children, to have another pair
(09:01):
of eyes, I mean not judging eyes, but just another
pair of eyes who will catch something that the student
might miss. So I like that idea, and and that
actually segways very nicely into one of my favorite things
in the book, which I talk about all the time,
which is the index what I call the Index Card Challenge,
which is a game that parents and students and their
children can play um and in terms of helping children
(09:27):
know themselves and and know the process and define their
expectations for college. Just so the parents listening, now, I
am not going to go through the entirety of this
wonderful book. You're going to have to go get this
book and read it on your own, as I highly
recommend you do. But I'm just gonna highlight a few
sections of the book that I found were particularly interesting
and helpful and novel ways to look at this process. So,
(09:48):
first of all, there are lots of interactive things in
the book, lots of activities you can do together, And
the first one is the Index Card Challenge. And Eric,
since this is sort of your baby, or at least
I first heard of it from you, why don't you
talk a little bit of about what that index card
um challenges? Certainly, and I think you should. You know,
you can coin that term. I love it. I've never
(10:09):
heard that your next card challenge, which so joqu and I.
You know, we we recognize the technology age that we're in,
but we like scribbling down notes. But it's this concept
of writing down your ideas when they come to you.
Maybe it's a parking lot idea that you need to
revisit later on. But this is really in the college conversation,
how we want both student and family members to really
(10:33):
imagine for themselves what their college experience, characteristics, attributes, as
we call them, just jot down, you know, free form
maybe six words, six ideas about what the college environment
that they hope to see themselves in as a student.
To do that, and Jock and I really discussed to
(10:55):
have them do this exercise separately, so that you know,
on one side of the room as a student with
an index card jotting down whatever the keywords and attributes
are for the college experience that they hope for, and
then the parent doing the same thing through the lens
of what they feel would be kind of the ideal
college experience. And in Prens, Jacques put you know, it's
(11:16):
it's not gonna be perfect, right, but the whole point
here is alignment. And we talk a great deal in
the college conversation about alignment. So when you come back
together with those index cards, you're gonna see some words
that are identical, some words that may have the same meaning,
they're just different ways of describing it. And then you know,
further down, maybe some ideas that are not in line
(11:40):
with each other, which is fine, this is a conversation starter,
but to understand what that starting point is like where
there's overlap, and in those points where maybe we need
to have a discussion later on because we're hoping for
two very different things. It's really the roughest of rough drafts.
It's it's associating its words and phrases and and one
(12:02):
of the things that I love that Eric embeds into
this exercise is do not write down the names of
specific colleges too early for that that don't come and
and don't write a description of a college so specifically
that it's obvious of what it is that it's it's
really just sort of attributes. I've thought a lot about
(12:23):
this index card challenge because I wish it had been
around when I was going through this process with my children,
and as I describe it to others, one of the
things that I suggest that parents and students uh do
independently is got down in addition to the attributes that
you'll be looking for or you'll be looking for for
your child, things that most excite you and most concern
(12:45):
you about the process. So, Eric, the next part of
this is you write this down and then you get
back together, and then you share them and and then
you kind of put them away for a while. Isn't
that right? I mean, you you hold onto them, you do.
And you know, Carol, what you have done with the
book book is exactly what Jack and I had hoped for.
You took a concept and you iterated on it in
a way that you know, also write down what it's
(13:08):
going to excite you the most. I mean, that's wonderful.
It's like thinking of the positive. It's like I am
really looking forward to whatever it is. And so you know,
that's what we hope for with our with our readers,
is that they're going to take this and just fly
with it in different directions. This is the first of
about a dozen activities that we have in the book,
(13:28):
but there's gonna be times later on where you may
need some grounding for ground control parenting, right you're gonna
have to come back with some grounding to say, Okay,
I'm really moving in a direction and I'm excited by it.
But then you're gonna check yourself just to say, Okay,
maybe I'm going in a different direction and that's what
research is about and that's fantastic. Or are you excited
(13:51):
about something that is actually leading you away from what
the goal really is? Because I had the greatest tour
guide wonderful, while did you really find that those other
pieces that really matter to you We're we're there? And
so maybe I'll just put it this way to sum
it up, is how relevant is that index card now
(14:12):
that you've changed, you've grown, you're going through this process.
Maybe some of those pieces have changed because of your
own learning, and that's wonderful. Recognize that it's great. One
other thing about this sharing of the index card early
on is that it encourages the beginning of a conversation.
If you the parents say I think they should they
(14:35):
really love a school that's really remote with a thousand students,
and the student says, I really want an urban campus
with with a thousand people in my class, as opposed
to in the school you're so early in the process
that you can talk about this non judgmentally. You're not
at loggerheads. You can just learn and parents, the thing
about this, you should really just listen. The point of
(14:56):
this is not so that your child here's what you think.
It's more so that so that you hear what your
child think. And I think and I think that that's
something that comes throughout the book that parents should really
listen to their children along the way. No, it's a
lot of these conversations starters are intended to be a
little bit one sided, and that you, as a parent
(15:17):
or another adult in a child's life, are going to
get that conversation going. And then as you say, um,
sort of hang back and listen. And yet we don't
again in the spirit of ground control parenting, UM, we
don't want you to abdicate your role as a parent.
You have life experience, UM, you know your child. UM,
you have a financial interest in this, and there may
(15:38):
be some financial boundaries. So UM, we we don't want
you to be passive. But but those those ground rules
that we talked about co creating at the beginning, UM,
can can facilitate I want to skip ahead to another
exercise in terms of beginning the college search. And that
is the famous Eric for to four seas, but it's
actually four plus one. See and these are the um
(16:03):
ways that parents can help their children navigate through the many,
many college Opsin's okay, you've you've gotten past the early
stages where you have a sense of what you might like,
and now you have to take a look at the
colleges that exist and figure out how you can pull
make your college list. So there are four sees that
that you guys have talked about in this book, UM,
(16:25):
that you can use as a as a guideline to
how how you should find your college. You can you
can split them up. I'll start with you, do you
want to talk about the first couple of seas? First
of all, it's important. We're going to talk about the
four seas and will divide and conquer. I'll do too,
and Eric will do too. UM. But families listening, they
(16:46):
should make these their own. UM. They can edit these
categories and they don't have to be so neat. Maybe
there's different letters that work better for them. But we
see this as sort of been initial framing as Eric
seit earlier, to make your own. So it's it's sort
of yardstick, a rude brick. As you are UM as
a young person looking at colleges and as a parent
(17:06):
helping support that process. And and these are UM categories
that you can look at colleges against and start to differentiate.
So the first C is culture UM. What is the
history and mission of that institution? UM? How does that
mission resonate with your child as a potential applicant today? UM?
How does that mission resonate on campus today? So as
(17:30):
you start to look at colleges, UM, they can look
a lot alike when you look at something like culture UM,
at least as we've defined it, Suddenly they start to
look a little bit different. And and as in the
spirit of the index card, you can keep a record
of your impressions, your child can, whether it's on a
legal pad, index card, spreadsheet, Google dot, your phone, whatever works. UM.
(17:54):
The second C is curriculum. And we're really talking about
beyond the listing of majors and programs that a school offers,
or even whether certain courses are required, what's the design
and aim of the courses your child might take over
four years. As you start to look at curriculum as
defined by that suddenly colleges start to look different, some
(18:16):
will start to pop um, some will start to fall.
And I will throw to my co author for the
the sees three and s four will before i've before
we get to the second two seas, I want to
a couple of questions about the questions about UM the
first two culture, which makes all the sense in the
(18:37):
world that the vibe of the campus, the way the
students interact, the way it feels, is something that students
can't get at this very moment. And so I've been
thinking about what some other ways of of getting a
sense of the culture. Clearly you'll be able to look online,
and too many universities credits. They have put a lot
of resources into trying to uh, trying to display their culture,
(19:02):
trying to give students a sense of what it's like.
But but what are some of the other ways that
a student can can sort of sense culture. Maybe they
can reach out to current students or I mean, it's
it's a harder thing to do virtually, don't you think. Yeah? So,
I mean my background is as a journalist, and I
would encourage young people and parents to be very journalistic.
(19:24):
Your freeze reach out UM, you may have to do
some leg work online, but think of the conversations you
could have online with Pick your student organization that you're
particularly interested in. UM. Maybe this is an institution that
says that it really does a great job on inclusion
(19:45):
and and and diversity and equity. UM, Well let's test
them on that. There are probably a series of organizations
you could reach out to. Your child could reach out
to UM, have a FaceTime call, have a zoom call,
ask your questions as if you were and no, you're
not going to have that serendipitous bump into somebody in
the cafeteria and ask them a question. UM. But it's
(20:08):
possible to learn a lot through technology. UM. Also, we're
hopeful that UM by the spring of two UM as
students have received admissions decisions, including acceptances, perhaps it will
be possible then perhaps it will be possible in the
fall of twenty one to visit. But if you're willing
(20:30):
to work a little bit harder and and use technology
to reach out, I would argue that you could learn
a lot about culture UM as well as just as
a spoiler alert, a sea that is coming up community
which is very related to to culture. Same thing UM
that sort of journalistic outreach can teach you a lot.
And and that is a great segue to you Eric
(20:51):
to talk about the other two seas. So I think
that's a great segue that Jacques set up and that
the seas are interconnected and culture and curriculum, you know,
can come together in some ways. As an example, while
there's some subjects within the within the curriculum that all
students will take because it's building on the culture of
(21:12):
the institution, maybe it's a foundational course that all students
will take because it really feeds into the history and
makes it relevant today. Community. How often families do you
hear from admission offices that we admit students from the
round the world? Fifty States, Washington, d C, Puerto Rico,
A two countries are represented in the class. You know,
(21:34):
here's that the demographic background of the class. And that's
all you know. It's it's reporting, is it. It's helping individuals,
families understand where the student body is coming from. The
difference between that and community is Okay, you have all
these people, how are you going to help plan for
them actually to learn from and with one another? And
(21:56):
this is where we can't just leave it to chance.
And as Jacques said, we do want some erendipity and
we want those unplanned excursions to take place. While if
you think about the people who are on a campus
physically and even virtually, because that has to be established
as well, is what are the spaces, what are the programs,
(22:16):
what are the college houses like? You know, what is
that main place, the main green, the college green, the
steps in front of the library, the walk that goes
through the campus, pulling on places that I'm really familiar
with here is you know? And then how do those
individuals that have been admitted as a class come together?
And that's really the foundation of community and all the
(22:40):
relationships that you would like to see grow, not only
in the student body, but then also with the faculty.
How do you facilitate those interactions and that creates the
larger communities that a student will experience. So what's really
exciting for students is you kind of know what it
is that you're looking for. Some times on this particular
(23:01):
type of student, I'm going to look for the research labs.
I'm going to look for the music room. Jock is
looking for, you know, the newspaper, and you know, as
you continue to grow, it becomes the newspaper and the
lab and and that's what we really want to see happen.
And so community is not fixed. It does have that
(23:22):
growth mindset, and we hope that students will expand their
circles and their communities as they go through their four years.
And and in terms of questions, you can ask doing
this sort of journalistic due diligence, hey, what sort of
community is this? Whether you're inditionally starting your due diligence
online and eventually in person, how supportive is that community?
Is it cutthroat or is it kind? Um? How happy
(23:46):
are the students? I mean there are campuses that that
tend to be some happier than others. Obviously you can't
over generalize, and but just by asking a range of
students questions like that, are students helpful to each other
or competitive with each other? Or maybe it's some kind
of a mix um, How how supportive is the institution
(24:06):
if if you're struggling, Um, these are all I would
say expansions of that definition of community. And the fourth
C would be so the fourth seas conclusions. Families are
looking for outcomes, and you know this is a time investment.
It's a financial investment, it's an emotional investment as an
(24:29):
investment in so many different dimensions. And you want to
have a sense of, you know, what opportunities are there
beyond graduation, certainly, and so you could think about statistics
of graduate school placement jobs right out of graduation, look
at alumni surveys five, fifteen, twenty years later, you know,
(24:49):
so you have more of a longitudinal sense of what
the graduates are doing. And I would actually bring it
even closer in particularly as you're taking a look at
schools and thinking about what's the And this goes to
what joacqu was saying before about the wellness of students
as well. What's the retention rate from your first year
of college to the second year of college? How many
students are returning? A lot of the national statistics, most
(25:12):
of the federal data on graduation rates are after six years,
six years. I mean, many families, Carol that are listening
to your podcast right now aren't thinking six years. They're like, honey,
you know, son, you're graduating after four years. So how
realistic is that under the best of circumstances, And you know,
(25:32):
really looking at those markers to see what those conclusions are,
outcomes are for many students and families. And where do
you find that information? Is it on the website quite often?
And Jacques and I reference students to the Common Data Set,
which is a rich data set that is collected. And
(25:53):
if you just put it in the name of any
school that you're looking at and put in Common Data Set,
there's there's data around graduation rates. There's also if you'd
like to see a larger then instead of going school
by school, federal database from the National Center for Education Statistics.
And if you pull up the n c e S
(26:16):
data right now, you're going to see cohorts that entered
in two thousand thirteen. So you're gonna be looking at this.
I just ran this data and I see two thousand thirteen.
I must have done something wrong. No, you haven't, because
they're reporting out six year graduation rates and it lags
a little bit with federal data being collected. So that's
a national database that families can look to. You know,
(26:39):
it strikes me that this is information that's really helpful
for parents because your your child may not be as
focused on this as a as an issue that should
be of great concern, but if you're helping him or
her sort through a lot of different options. If they
are indifferentness to several schools and one of them has
a really low rate of students going from the first
(27:00):
to the second year successfully, that's a data point that
needs to be talked about. And so this might be
an area where parents can actually dive in on their
own to get this information. Here's this instance where parents
can actually do some helpful journalistic digging on their own
and and also bring that parent perspective of of of
knowing that the long view is important return on investment.
(27:22):
There are colleges in this country where three of every
four students don't graduate in six years, let alone four.
That data is knowable and a student might not pay
attention to it um but we as parents can bring
it at least to their attention. Do you look look
at the odds of graduating and that's a really good
It's a really good time to do this now, because
(27:44):
you're not saying to your child you won't be able
to get out of this school in this number of
years because of something you're doing, but more that this
school has a for whatever reason, students are having trouble
with this so it's actually it helps the child begin
to think of this college experience as something that they're
actually going to be doing and their parents has faith
in them to do. But but that there are other
(28:05):
forces that interfere. So it's it's actually it's a good
part of the conversation to have before you're narrowing it
down to one or two schools. We'll be right back
after these messages. Welcome back to the show. So now
I'm going to ask about that fifth. See. Let's see
that the four plus C and that is costs, which
(28:27):
for every parent who is sending a child to school,
that that for them may be the first see. But
we talked about this in your book. This is one
of the things I talked with you about that the
importance of having these conversations with your child early on
to talk about costs openly. How should a student be
looking at the costs and and what should the family
(28:48):
do together about them? Yeah, and and as you point out,
just because we're ranking this the fifth or the fourth
plus one um, we know that for so many families
it's the number one one. See, it's the number one factor.
It's a luxury um to not worry about cost. And
this may be the first time in the life of
(29:08):
your family that you've had a conversation about money. UM,
that that you, as a parent or adults in their
life have talked about what your earnings are, what your
savings are, what you're willing to spend on college in
addition to what you've saved for it, what your expectation
is from your child and UM, really really difficult conversation
(29:29):
to have, but but the right moment to have it early. UM.
It would be heartbreaking for a student to get far
down the line in terms of falling in love with
a particular college that's never going to be realistic from
a financial perspective. So having those guidelines and guard rails
and really educating yourselves early about colleges that have need
(29:52):
based aid and and merit based aid. You know, aid
based on um your financial wherewithal versus aid based on
how you may have performed in school or performed on tests,
and and knowing which schools offer which um uh, the
difference between an in state public university and what that
(30:12):
expense might be I'm compared to a private institution and
so UM difficult important to have early. So let me
ask you guys about this debate, which you actually raised
in in your book about the the On the one hand,
(30:34):
you have the value of a liberal art education, and
parents should encourage their children to learn for learning sake
and to not not enter college and spend every moment
of college trying to figure out what kind of job
you're going to get, because the goal is to expand
your mind and it's it's it's a wonderful place to
(30:54):
do that, versus the reality of, uh, you're going into
debt to have this education. You should have some sense
of what your aspirations are going out in very early
stages before you even go in, to have a sense
of how large a debt you're going to end up
with and whether that should impact what school you go to.
(31:16):
I mean, you you referenced someone in the book that
sort of talked about it was such a privilege and
a luxury to be able to not think about what
job you wanted. But but as as one who benefited
from a liberal arts education, I strongly um I am
not as much in favor of having to decide ahead
of time that you have to get a job that
(31:37):
pays X and that coloring your entire college career. How
do you guys think about this? But I think some
of this goes to the start of the book that
that Jack and I as we were discussing the outline
for the college conversation is we questioned at the beginning
why college, And so we didn't die right into okay,
(32:01):
this is you know, even before the index card, it
was really thinking about, you know, what are the options
for an individual who's leaving high school, leaving secondary school
and recognizing the multiple paths that are available. And so
by the time you get to this, you know, I'm
going to college, it's going to be a four year college.
(32:22):
What do I study? You already have some sense that
the experience matters. Yes, they're still gonna be conclusions, outcomes,
return on investment, but you've already had this mindset that
this is what I want to pursue because I do
understand that the future is completely uncertain and that there's
a value to this education that's going to be durable
(32:45):
and not so specific. Training. And we talk about training,
We talk about technical institutions as an opportunity to go
into you know, jobs that you could see them right now.
I wish I had some of them as we're like
living at home and doors are breaking and water is
coming through the like everything that's happening. And because the
real skills, while also thinking about through a four year degree,
(33:10):
there's going to be courses that are more more practical.
The liberal arts and sciences has utilitarian value to it.
Now on top of that, you may know how to
code or have some other skill set. It's the combination
of both that we think is going to be the
most durable and and at least we want families to
(33:31):
talk about this early. And the three of us are
our products of a liberal arts education, and it taught
us arguably how to think, how to write, how to
ask questions, how to be a citizen. UM, you know,
as a history major, which taught me how to write
and prepared me for a career in journalism nonfiction writing. UM.
(33:52):
I think that it's important though as as families look
at the fifth se cost um. If a student no
is that they are interested in engineering, UM, that they've
got that passion heading in UM to the extent it's
possible to know as an eighteen year old UM that
can inform how much debt UH that the student and
(34:13):
family might want to take on because it's knowable what
those careers pay in the first five years out of college,
and you can build that into your financial UM. If
you are thinking, UM that you want to do something
that's a little softer UH teaching UH journalism. UM, that
knowledge and what the income might be in the first
five years can also inform the cost and and maybe
(34:36):
that steers you toward a particular institution because UM, knowing
what you're going to have to pay back that debt
UM will will inform choices. So it's we certainly we
want to be practical UM in terms of of of
job prospects. And it's Charlie Javis from UH and an
(34:57):
organization called Frank who is really articulate in the book
on this about looking at potential careers and and for
those listening students or parents or students, UM, if your
child has no idea what they want to study in college,
that's more than okay, that's in large part the purpose
of that education. UM. But but some really do and
(35:17):
and some of these data points can be helpful on cost.
So just to wrap this up, it really seems that's
so valuable to have these cost conversations, these college cost
conversations early, even though they're uncomfortable, even though, as you said,
it might be the first time. And I would encourage
parents not to be defensive about this or you know,
(35:39):
some people feel like what they make and how much
they have is Many people feel it's very private and
you're sharing this information, um reluctantly, but sharing your the
sharing the information about your your thinking about the costs
and what you can afford, can be really helpful, not
only to help choose you're going, but if the student
(36:01):
understands that its family is making an investment in their education,
it might motivate them on those days in college when
they have to decide where they really feel like doing
something or not. But I do think it's healthy and
practical for them to have some understanding that there's there's
an investment being made, which, um, you're mature enough to
be a part of understanding. And you may if you're
(36:23):
working on campus for work study or whatever, you may
have to take a role in paying for the education.
So it's again, I think it's really great to start
this before you're looking at the acceptance and dealing with
the reality of a particular school. So we're gonna throw
We're gonna throw a little curveball into this on you, Carol,
because came up with a six C. Okay, so this
(36:47):
is a temporary ce. But the six C is probably
the coronavirus sadly, And so as you think about the
rubric of of things that you're looking at, community, culture,
cost inclusions, UM, curriculum. UM, how about throwing in a
category sadly for for juniors and and families of juniors. UM.
(37:09):
What are the various ways that the coronavirus helps you
size up a college or university? It may be something
as basic as their admissions policies. We are now test
optional for this fall, um. But also UM, this may
have changed your calculation as a family in terms of distance.
You know, a year ago we were happy to get
(37:29):
on that six hour plane ride. But you know, knowing
what we know now, maybe that four hour car ride
as the radius. So it shouldn't dominate, UM, the conversation,
but it certainly could be a factor. How how strict
is that campus expecting to be in the fall in
terms of on campus learning? UM. Maybe it makes you
(37:51):
rethink that that university with the eighty thousand uh capacity
football stadium UM, or maybe it doesn't. Maybe you're making
that long view that we talked about at the outset
and and Okay, for the first year, I can weather
it and and then hopefully will all sort of be
the clear. But at least um to note it, to
(38:11):
surface it, to to elevate it. It's an unfortunate six seed,
but I think it's really important. Families have been together
for a year and it may really have changed the dynamic.
Everything looks a little different, and so it's really important
to figure out how that impacts the college process. The
final thing I want to talk about is um something
(38:33):
that you raise in your book, and it's so under
discussed in the college application process, and it's the transition process.
It's the fact that once you're in, you're not done.
I mean you're once you even made the decisions where
you're going, there's still, as you guys say in the book,
a bit of a road from that day after you
(38:53):
know where you're going to college to the end of
your first year. Eric, You've you've you've been on outside.
Is it true that colleges really do watch what happens
after they admit you. You can't just like stop the
next day and stuff going to class absolutely and the
you know, there's two frames here. You know, one is
(39:14):
we want students to be ready once they enter college.
And so they've made it this far, it's not time
to completely let down. Uh maybe some deceleration, they've been stressed.
We want to recognize that. Wild also, let let's finish
the year out and and make sure that you're ending
on on on a high note. The other piece here,
(39:35):
and then I'll turn to Jacques because the the full
transition was really you know, something that he ran with
is you know, in the stage of social media and
a lot of families, tens of thousands of families not
celebrating those students who were admitted, but thinking about those
that were not admitted. You know, just making sure that
students from a discipline side, And this is big in
(39:56):
the news right now. The common application won't have discipline
question on the application anymore, uh, starting with with next
year's platform. So you know, we're just making sure that
that students, as they're continuing to live their young lives,
that you know, some mistakes that they make that get
amplified through social media, that they're not now jeopardizing something
(40:19):
that they work so hard for I actually want to
just pick up on that for just a second, because
it's two things. I mean, social media. You can tell
your children social media is not your friend when you
are in this process, any part of the process. And
so there are two things. One sort of being a
responsible citizen. You should not um crow or I mean,
(40:40):
you should really take your life experiences. Um you should
think very carefully about how you display what's happening for
you know, under the knowing well that it is not
happening the same for everyone else. But also, it's not
just you and your social media. Since it's social, it's public.
People can take what you have put on your social
(41:01):
media and send it to the admissions office. And they do,
and so students do and parents do. I mean this
it's it's it's amazing and and and it's kind of
sad but true that just because they think all of
their friends are cool and nobody would wrap them out.
It's the universe is much bigger than um just your
(41:24):
friends and um. The fury of a parent who for
whom his child it didn't work out is is big.
So so just no, I mean you can parents, you
can tell your children that this actually happens. It's it's
not a myth. But um, Jock, do you want to
talk a little bit more about the transition process, what
(41:45):
else parents can do to help? Yeah, I mean we
we wanted to make sure we we say at the
point in the book where your child finds out where
they're going to college makes their deposit, um, that they
as parents are not done with Eric and me yet,
and that we want to be there with them through
the end of the first year. Um. We want to
(42:06):
arm you as parents to be able to sort your child,
support your child through that summer before they go away,
then while they actually go away, and and to be
checking in again. Co create rules on when are you
going to check in? How are you going to check in?
No one knows your child as well as you do. Um,
you're gonna hear things on the phone. You're going to
see things facetiming and zooming. UM about that will give
(42:29):
you a sense of how they're doing. Are they feeling overwhelmed?
Are they happy? Are are they sad? Are they depressed?
And in particular, um, when they come home at Thanksgiving
or Christmas, Um, they may well say to you that
they're not happy to the point that they want to
transfer and UM. Eric and I spend some time in
the book UM talking about what we call the transfer conversation.
(42:53):
Really some some prompts to ask your child to get
a sense of whether, UM, it's a case that they
haven't made friends, or they haven't found the right activity,
or or maybe this isn't quite the right situation for them.
You make the best decision you can as a student
and family with the choices you have in the information
you have, but ultimately you can't know before you go.
(43:16):
And UM and I am the parent of a transfer
and there are many of us out there, There are
many transfer students. I think it's certainly possible, Eric, that
as a result of the sixth CE the coronavirus UM,
that there may be more students chanceering because the they
didn't have the opportunity to visit places, or maybe they
chose to stay close to home the first year, maybe
(43:39):
they chose UM Community College and what have you. And
we rarely wanted to arm families from what we describe
as the transfer conversation. And it's important for those listening
to know transfer is not failure, Transfer is empowering and
UH and sometimes UM, your child changes from the moment
they put in that deposit to the moment they show
(44:00):
up on campus or maybe as a result of being
on campus. This is a teenage brain, um and and
a teenage person and so um, it was really important
to us to to to have families know that that's
a potential outcome and and it's one that can be
worked through. You guys have a really helpful list of
(44:22):
kinds of conversations that parents should be having with their
children about this transition, and and one that really rung
true to me was defining failure and success. So many
of us, you know, our children worked so hard in
high school, and they they go off with an expectation
that they're going to do as well in college as
they did in high school. If they're going to a
(44:44):
very academically rigorous college, they're gonna be surrounded by people
who all expect to be at the top of their class.
So invariably there's going to be a point at which
they're going to find out that they're not the smartest
person in the room. If they ever were, they are
not now. Um And I'm I think it's really helpful
for parents to be able to send their children off
(45:04):
with an understanding that failure and success as they have
viewed it in high school, it's different in college. I
mean there there's it has as much to do with
your work outside the classroom as it does in the classroom. Um.
Having said that, though, I would also say that it's
helpful to have a conversation when you can set some
sort of expectations, and I don't mean specific grade expectations,
(45:26):
but an expectation that the purpose in college is to
do the absolute best you can, the best effort. Um.
I think some parents are so relieved that this process
is over and they send their child off and everybody's
all smiles, and it becomes tough if the child doesn't
do as well as they thought, and they they don't
want to tell their parents it. It becomes complicated. And
(45:47):
that Actually there's one other thing I want to say
before I ask you guys about this. It's really important
that early on after your child is in that you
have the conversation about access to two things medical records
and grades. Now, every student has the ability to not
give you access. They do not have to, and so
I would suggest happiness conversation when everybody's very happy, and
(46:10):
and write not before not as you're dropping them off.
And I say that because, well, the medical one is
pretty easy. I mean, you know, it's it's a terrible
thing that you can't know when your child is sick
because the rules are they can't contact you unless the
child is gives you permission, and God forbid the child
be unable to do that. But the great thing I
(46:30):
personally speaking, I insisted that all my children give me access.
I never took it. The goal was not to see
how they were doing, but if they had gotten into
any real trouble to your point, shock, if they got depressed,
if there was something that was really if I couldn't
get from them what was troubling them, it's really helpful
from a parent's perspective to know what's going on, and
not having access to any of the information can be
(46:52):
very frustrating. Well, I think the the the continuum of
secondary school to college through this len of the transition.
But then also another guard rail that Jocque and I
always talk about is, and you framed it perfectly, Carol,
is what are the expectations? And it really is about
not just showing up but doing the best that you can.
(47:15):
And that may sound like a luxury position to have
everything's not gonna happen just because you put the best
effort in. But that is the expectation, and then the
other pieces to follow. Let let's face it, all the
greats in science in writing the number of times our
book was edited, and I'm not putting up in that
in that category. The reality is most things don't work
(47:37):
out the first, second, third, fourth, fifth time. And I
know in the final maybe seven to eight years that
I was at ten just trying to convince a group
of high achieving students who had those types of expectations
that you know you're going to stumble and that may
be reflected in a grade that may be reflected and
(47:58):
not getting into the accap hell group that you wanted
to get into, or you know, some other group that
you really strive for. So it really is a challenge though,
and this is where all you know, take so much
responsibility being in college admissions for such a long period
of time, is we set a certain expectation that you're
going to do these things you get into college, and
(48:19):
then we say, okay, it's all right, Uh, no, failure
is okay, but just don't get enough okay, right, And
so as adults, we have to, you know, really think
about what it is that we're trying to communicate and
make sure that our children and that young people had
that understanding that it doesn't always work out. Mm hmmm,
yeah no. And then the flip side that is, the
(48:40):
schools have a lot of resources and we can encourage
our children to use them. Um a lot of resources
to help with the school expects that not everybody is
going to get everything their tutoring programs. There's academic resources
and that's another one of the things that you guys
talk about in terms of success and failure. Well, guys,
you know, we've only covered just the team bit of
your book, but it's it's a really such a wonderful resource.
(49:03):
I was thrilled to be a part of it, a
teeny part of it. But you guys have done such
a good service because it's lovely to have a guide
to know what questions to ask. We don't know what
we don't know, and so you guys have done a
great job in helping us figure that out. And now
I'm gonna wrap it up, but I'm going to ask
you guys to please lay my GCP bonus round. I
(49:25):
have two quick questions. One is and and you know
you can divide these up. You can divide them up
amongst the two of you. A favorite poem and two
favorite children's books? Does anyone have a favorite poem? Jacques
the writer that you are. Yeah, it's it's a little
bit of a cliche poem, but it's so apropos to
what we're talking about here. The Robert Frost. Uh, you know,
(49:46):
stopping by woods on a snowy evening, you know, two
two roads diverged in the in the wood. And uh,
we're talking about choices and and and possibilities and and
what lays that, you know, what, what lies down various
acts and that that that poem has has always spoken
to me, as has has Robert Frost in particular. That's great,
(50:07):
that's great. Eric. Would you like to submit a poem
or a contribute a poem? Or do you want to
talk about children's books? You have littler one so you
may be closer to the children's book arena. That's right. Well,
actually for for a poem, and I know it's used
usually for other circumstances. It's become adopted to be used
for other circumstances. But Ryan Hold neighbor. You know in
(50:29):
this college process, you know, God give me the strength.
I think that applies in a lot of different ways
in life and what we're facing right now with life.
So again, know that it was adopted for other circumstances,
but I think we need that strength every day. And
you know, thinking of books, maybe it's more of what
I enjoyed than my children. But Winnie the Pooh, you know,
(50:50):
the free loving tigger love, you know, the bouncy one.
And I just think all the personalities that come across
there are relevant today. Absolutely. You know, I had not
thought about When the po in a while, but you're
absolutely right. You've got Tigger bouncing off the walls. You've
got or who is just we're all or these days
(51:14):
I'm gonna have to pull that one off the shelf
and then look at it again. So I thank you
guys so much. Thank you for being with me. It's
so great to see you again. And best of luck.
With a college conversation, I urge everyone listening to get
a copy, even if you're not quite the college parent yet.
It talks about middle school. But thank you guys so much.
Thank you Carol. What a pleasure. You've been such great guests,
(51:38):
and I thank you so much, Eric and John for
taking the time to be here today. I hope everyone
listening enjoyed this conversation and that you'll come back for more.
Please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts,
and tell your friends. For more parenting info and advice,
please check out the Ground Control Parenting blog at ground
control parenting dot com. You can also find us on
(52:00):
Instagram and Facebook at ground Control Parenting and on LinkedIn
under Carol Sutton Lewis. The Ground Control Parenting with Carol
Sutton Lewis podcast is a part of the Seneca Women
Podcast Network in partnership with iHeartMedia. Until the next time,
take care and thanks for listening.
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