April 19, 2023 • 59 mins
Carol talks with Dr. Yasmin Hurd, Director of the Mount Sinai Addiction Institute, about the complex landscape of drug use today. With marijuana available recreationally or medically in most states and new synthetic drugs regularly hitting the market, parents need to know when and how to discuss drugs and drug use with their children. Dr. Hurd shares her insights on two drugs currently making headlines: cannabis and fentanyl. She walks Carol through the benefits and potential risks of cannabis and talks about why fentanyl use is rising and the toll it is taking on its users. Carol and Dr. Hurd answer listener questions and offer advice on how to create an open and supportive environment where kids can honestly discuss their thoughts and questions about drugs.
Follow us at @GroundControlParenting and on groundcontrolparenting.com See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Follow us at @GroundControlParenting and on groundcontrolparenting.com See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Ground Control Parenting, a blog and
now a podcast created for parents raising black and brown children.
I'm the creator and your host, Carol Sutton Lewis. In
this podcast series, I talk with some really interesting people
about the job and the joy of parenting. Today, I
am talking about how parents can get smart and help
their children get smart about drug use with neuroscientists. Doctor
(00:26):
Yasmin Heard. Doctor Hurd, is the director of the Addiction
Institute at Mount Sinai here in New York City, and
she's also Mount Signia's Ward Coleman Chair of Translational Neuroscience.
Her disciplinary research investigates the neurobiology underlying addiction disorders and
related psychiatric illnesses. A major focus of this research is
directed to risk factors of addiction disorders, including genetics, as
(00:48):
well as developmental exposure to cannabis. Now that the majority
of states in the US have legalized or decriminalized marijuana
used for medical and or recreational purposes, the spotlight is
fully on doctor Yasmin Heard and her pioneering work on
the effects of marijuana on the developing brain. Her research
has been featured not only in scientific journals, but also
in popular culture as well. It's been a Time magazine
(01:08):
cover story as well as the focus of documentaries from
CNN and PBS, and she is the perfect expert to
help us learn what we need to know about marijuana
and other drugs. Doctor Hurb was born in Jamaica and
moved here to New York City with her family when
she was a young teen. She's a graduate of Sunny
Binghamton and she completed her pH d at the world
renowned Karlinska Institute in Sweden, where she taught about thirteen
(01:28):
years before coming to Mount SINAI welcome to Ground Control Parenting,
Doctor Hurd.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Thanks for having me. It's really great to talk with you.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I am so thrilled to learn about you and your
work and to discover this scientific superstar in our midst
and who happens to be a black woman. And I'm
so thrilled that you're with us today to share info
on a topic that concerns many parents, what we need
to know and what we need to tell our kids
about drug use, abuse and addiction. So let's get started.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I hope I'll be able to answer some of your
questions help your audience.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
I'm sure you will well. First, let me tell you
that I actually solicited members of the audience to ask
for questions. I got several questions, and I will sprinkle
them into our conversation and at the end, I'll ask
you a few others. Okay, So first, generally speaking, let's
talk about what parents should know about drugs that are
on the market today. So parents come to these discussions
(02:22):
of drug use from a variety of vantage points. Some
of them never went near any drugs, others sort of dabbled,
and some may still use them recreationally, only the legal ones.
But regardless of where you were on that spectrum, it
seems as if parents, with their parenting had on need
to know some basics about current drug use and availability.
(02:45):
So can you talk to me a little bit about
the differences between the drugs in early generations and the
drugs now.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I think that this is one of the issues with
parents today because and with anything, as a parent, I think,
you know, you look at your experience and the experiences
that your children have, but it's always guided by what
you went through, right, and therefore you give your knowledge
to them, and you know your parents did it to you,
and you sometimes obviously rolled your eyes and didn't listen, right,
(03:12):
And it's the same thing. But there's a huge difference
when it comes to drugs. Drugs in you know, even
you know, I don't know how young your audience is,
but even twenty years ago, the drugs are different from
thirty forty, fifty years ago, and a major issue. There
are a couple things. One the wide variety of drugs
(03:33):
that are out there today. You know, when people and
even when cannabis got its heyday with the hippie and
the seventies, you know, these were mainly young adults, people
forget going to college and so on. The potency of
the cannabis even that they use back then so different
and we can talk later more about that than the
(03:54):
potency of the cannabis today. Back then there was really
two strains of cannabis that were available. Today there's a
cornucopia of cannabis strains and that's just one drug. The
same thing goes for when you think about opioids, I mean,
opioids are you know, when you think about drugs, people
think of cannabis as the low, you know, more milder
(04:17):
types of drug versus you know, the what we call it,
you know, like the heavy heater drugs like opioids like
cocaine and heroin. Opioids today so much more potent of
these synthetic drugs. So again you have this broad variety
of substances that teens and young adults and everybody have
access to than you did twenty thirty, forty fifty years ago.
(04:40):
So it is the availability of drugs and it's the
potency of these drugs that are also a huge issue
that there is no way parents today are even even
if they experimented a lot back when they were teens
and young adults, it's nowhere near the same. And also
availability before people had to really oh that to know
(05:05):
someone through this or that, and then they would sneak
and go into oh, everything is available at the click
of a button today for teens and young adults. So
you have those three things and more that have made
this huge I call it perfect storm and why we
have a greater substance use problem today than we did
in the past.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
So, say I'm a parent who has had no experience
with drugs, how does one get a really reliable perspective
on the current state of drugs and drug usage?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
The Internet is a source of good and evil because indeed,
you can kill yourself deep diving in the Internet and
you can read things that are actually not true. I
think perhaps people should start at the National Institute of
Drug Abuse and National Institutes of Alcohol Abuse, the NIEH,
(06:01):
I should say, the NIH organizations. There are also some
local state organizations that also give I think more fundamental
information about substances. But even the NIH, NAIDA and IPlate
those are the two substance use institutes. They have sections
for parents, they have even sections for teens. Schools showed
(06:24):
the Department of Education some states, I don't think all
also provide some information about what drugs they see, and
that's there in terms of for parents as well on
their websites, and also I think could be good sources.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yeah. No, those are great suggestions. So let's dive into
the drugs. Let's first talk about cannabis, because parents need
to get smart on what's out there, and cannabis is
out there for sure. So one of my listeners had
a question, which is shared i'm sure by so many
other parents. With cannabis being legally accessible and so many states,
(07:01):
what should we tell our teens and our younger children
about using cannabis? And I want to start with all
of the reasons why all the pushback you get when
you have these conversations. It's it's less has less impact
than alcohol and tobacco. But you've heard them all, I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Yeah. You know the thing that I think that we
should look at substances and not compare them in the
context of I think about the analogy. Do you prefer
to jump out of the building on the third floor,
fifth floor, tenth floor? You know, I think that is
such a weird comparison. And yes, alcohol and tobacco are
two legal drugs, and now cannabis has joined that. But
(07:45):
if we think about it, alcohol and tobacco have killed
more people in our country than so many other things.
So you can tell your kids, Yeah, alcohol and tobacco
are legal, and now cannabis has joined those ranks. But
those drugs are very deadly. We have learned about those drugs.
We have more data on those drugs, ironically than we
(08:08):
do on cannabis. So now people, you know, use cigarettes
and alcohol in a more manageable recreational level, but not
everyone does, and those people who don't have serious problems,
really serious problems. So I don't want people to downplay
(08:29):
these substances as cannabis, yes, has not become legal, and
I think it should have been decriminalized. I find it
so sad that for so long this war on drugs
was really about putting down and really imprisoning black and
brown people for using cannabis, and it destroyed communities more
(08:49):
so than the substance use did. And so we need
to make sure just because you know, I am definitely
for decriminalization, but I'm not for promotion of cannabis use.
And that's why I think that people sometimes try to
straddle this line. There is no line. There is a
health risk for substance use. We can moderate the amount
(09:10):
of use, just life with tobacco and with alcohol. I
have a glass of wine? Is that a good thing?
Some days when I've come home, it's like on a
Friday night, I'm like, I need a glass of wine.
Do I drink a bottle of wine? No? But some
other people do. And so it's the same thing with cannabis.
So I think that it's now legal and it needs
(09:31):
to be regulated in a manner just like cigarettes and alcohol,
to protect their children. End of the day. For me,
this is about how do you protect it? Doesn't matter
cannabis or anything else. How do you protect those most
vulnerable in our society? And black and brown people have
been the ones who have been persecuted the most and
(09:52):
are the most vulnerable, and they're still the most vulnerable.
I feel with this casualness about can.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Boy, You've said so much there that I'd love to unpack.
And historically the government has participated in this effort to
make cannabis this horrible thing and to scare everyone. They
just say no the reefer madness. And as you've said
in articles I've read the import of that now is
that when you try to scare someone it's something they
(10:23):
get so cynical that they're loath to actually believe any
kind of negativity. And with respect to cannabis, and this
is what I want to talk to you about first,
there are some really positive things there are Your research
is really trying to explore some of the healing properties
of cannabis. Can you just give us a little primer
on the CBD versus the THCHC?
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yeah? You know, so, I start this also by saying,
and this is again people get into this like it
must be black or white. I don't know any substance
any medication, even those that are approved by the FDA
that doesn't have side effects. What we do in medicine
and research is to figure out what are the benefits
of certain things and what are the negative things that
(11:07):
we can hopefully mitigate, and usually we mitigate those by
the dosing by targeting certain individuals who we know if
they have a genetic risk or what other health conditions
they have. So the same thing with cannabis. People think
that cannabis is this one drug and it's not. Cannabis
is actually one of the most complex plants on the planet,
(11:28):
and it's gotten more complex because we have now designed
newer strains, so you have over five hundred chemicals in
this plant. So we had mainly studied THC, which is
the main psychoactive component of cannabis that produces the high,
you know, the euphoria with that impacts negatively on your
(11:49):
short term memory, your motn coordination, and so on, and
that's what we had seen actually had a negative impact
on the developing brain. I wanted to see if because
when we in our human studies we study cannabis, but
in our animal models we studyed THC, one component of cannabis,
so I want to see if there's another component, if
(12:10):
that also did the same, And that's why we started
studying CBD, cannabidial and it's a low percentage cannabinoid in
the plant. And when we studied it, we were very
surprised to see actually that it decreased heroin seeking behavior
in animal models. And then we did human clinical studies
and found that it decreased craving and anxiety in people
(12:32):
with a heroin use disorder. I will tell you many
people in the field, scientists and physicians didn't believe our
results to start, so we got a lot of pushback.
It took us a while to publish that, and now
the whole world is like, oh, CBD. And the people
who used to hate me because they thought I was
anti cannabis, and I'm not anti cannabis. I'm about data
as a scientist and about data. And then now they
(12:54):
loved me because they were like, oh, you're showing that
cannabis can be beneficial, and I'm like, yes, but it's
a specific cannabinoid. It's a specific cannabinoid. And people the
legalization of cannabis came about due to CBD because they
pushed for I don't know if you remember Charlotte's Web,
and it was this little girl called Charlotte and had
(13:15):
epilepsy and her parents were trying to find and I
understand it when your child is sick. They were trying
to get help, and someone said this particular plant they
had heard was helping with people with epilepsy, and they
brought their daughter to Colorado and the strain that they
now developed with CBD's had a higher concentration of CBD
(13:38):
helped to improve her epilepsy.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
But one second, Charlotte's Web is that Charlotte's Web is
the person's name.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
So Charlotte is the young the girl. Charlotte's Web was
a spider this childhood. Yeah, And so they called it
Charlotte's Web, you know, in terms of for the strain,
and they made a thing of yeah. So they made
you know, they made this strain her name for her.
And so one of the things about that was that
it revolutionized people who were trying to legalize cannabis, and
(14:11):
so they said, here, cannabis can can cure epilepsy. And
it actually is now the only so epid dialectsis CBD
that has approved by the FDA to treat childhood forms
too rare childhood forms of epilepsy and even off label
some other caesar disorders. That gave the impetus that, oh,
(14:34):
cannabis can be used as a medicine, but it was CBD.
It wasn't cannabis. So it's important that people understand that
THHC and high THC cannabis strains may have beneficial some
medicinal purposes, and we can talk about that, but CBD
is very different from cannabis. And so you know, people
(14:55):
tried to fuzz the line when they're saying, oh, we
legalized cannabis because CBD were But CBD is not cannabis.
It's a specific cannabinoid.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
If parents can look at marijuana use like they would
look at alcohol use or tobacco use, and I know,
I'm going to stick with alcohol because alcohol, unfortunately, is
still very popular for underage children. The big disadvantage with
respect to cannabis consumption is with alcohol, there's a limit.
I mean, there's some regulations on you know, if you're
(15:27):
driving and you're over the limit. I mean, there are
ways for people outside of the people that have been
with you while you've been taking this to figure out
how much you've taken. And with cannabis, I don't know
if there's a way to tell how much you've taken,
but there's no measure of what is going to be
okay and not dangerous.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Well there you know, more and more research is being
done and there are measures. Obviously, no parent would allow
their child and you should never allow police to take
your child's blood levels. If they take you know, get
your lawyer. You know. At the end of the day,
as I said, I want to protect kids. I don't
think the kids should be locked up and so your
child pulled over, nobody takes their blood. If they take
(16:05):
their blood, then they can get the levels. And we
do know the levels. But I say even to you know,
if you're with someone and they're consuming cannabis, it impacts
on their motor coordination and their cognition. So do not
get in a car with them. The same thing as
if you're with your friends and you're drinking alcohol, have
(16:25):
a designated driver. It's the same way as you would
with alcohol. The same with cannabis. So make sure you
keep safe and you know, the conversations that you have
with your kids that need to be open and honest,
you know that kids are going to experiment. Many of
your is that your parents, many of them fall into
the when they were teens and young adults, they experimented too.
(16:48):
It's about safety. And I say this to my friends kids.
I don't have kids myself. I'm on to everybody. Know
your friends. Do not get into a car with when
someone has consumed, no matter what as it is. And
luckily for many of us who live in cities where
there's uber, your parents will gladly go pick you up
(17:09):
or pay for an uber driver a driver than to
have you go in a car with someone who has consumed.
It's the same thing. It's about safety. Know where your kids,
which party that they're going to, know the home, whether
or not those parents are consumers themselves, what are they
allowing in their you know, the party. But I would
(17:29):
also say, unfortunately, you know, in some cities, especially big
urban cities, guns and with substance use, we have people
not thinking while they're consumed, right, and we have a
lot of young people dying or getting injured because of
guns and you know, and that to me, the combination
(17:50):
people don't talk about, but a lot of the actions
that the impulsive actions a lot of these young people
have is when they have consumed cannabis and other substances.
So cannabis is no different in that condition.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Right, we'll be right back after these messages. Welcome back
to the show. So let's clear up something that I'm
sure many parents don't even know about, or many parents
may not know. Can you become addicted to cannabis. There's
a theory that it's not addictive.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
So that is one of the biggest myths that you
can't get addicted to cannabis. And people then also try to,
you know, thread this needle that oh, it doesn't give
physical dependence versus psychological dependence. Around thirty percent of people
who use cannabis will develop a cannabis use disorder. And
it's the same number as for her and our cocaine.
(18:44):
But it's not because cannabis is as addictive as those
other substances. It's just because more people in the US
use cannabis. And if you look at just you know,
if you truncate that down, even if you look at
ever trying or so on, then perhaps about eleven percent
(19:04):
of people will develop a cannabis use disorder. But it's
the repeated use. You know, people think, Okay, I use
it this time, It's fine, I use it another time
and keep using it. The more you use it, the
greater your chance of developing cannabis use disorder. Not everyone
develops that. What we have seen and this is the
challenge today as compared to the days when your audience
(19:26):
were changes themselves, the potency of THT has gone up
so much that the vulnerability to develop a cannabis use
disorder increases, just like every other substance. The greater that concentration,
that potency of the primary agent in the drug, the greater.
As I said, your chance of developing an addiction so
(19:47):
and a cannabis use disorder. People don't realize it's a
clinically diagnosed disorder. You've lost control over your use. You're
craving the use if you don't take it. People think
that cannabis use disorder doesn't do anything physical to the body,
and that is actually not true. People go through physical withdrawals,
(20:07):
and it's not like alcohol withdrawals are opiate withdrawals. But
they go through withdrawals. They're sleep changes, they're aggressing their anger,
they're sweating, they're physiological and definitely a lot of psychological
issues of stopping subs that they're cannabis used. We see that,
you know, cannabis use disorder changes structural things in the
(20:29):
brain and also how certain neural circuits function similar to
other substance use disorders. So we know that it's not benign.
No one would be taking cannabis, if you know, and
smoking and getting high recreationally and all that, if it
didn't do something.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
For the brain.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
So to say that, oh it doesn't, you know it does.
The question is how much are you using the type
of strain that you're using, how often you're using it
that increases your risk of developing a disorder. And again
I'm going to come back to black and brown I
do think that we have and perhaps again I'm biased,
I'm a black person. You're not improving your chances of
(21:12):
getting to be who you are. The earlier to start
with cannabis, the more potent the cannabis that people are,
the kids are consuming today, it changes their trajectory. And
we want more healthy black and brown adults. And you
don't just miraculously become a healthy adult if your teenage
(21:34):
life is filled with so many other challenges that we
know that black and brown kids go through So I'm
a little bit more perhaps more biased of what are
the things that we need to provide our kids with
so that they can be more successful, and consuming high
potency cannabis does not do that. Will some of them
(21:56):
make it out, absolutely, but not focusing on the people
who make it out. I actually am focusing on the
kids who are most vulnerable, and today kids are There's
so much trauma, there's so much stress, and we know
the combination of cannabis with that exacerbates psychiatric risk, and
(22:19):
that to me is one of the issues as well.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, I know we have talked about that in earlier conversation,
that the stress of the world. I mean another difference
between our listener's youth and now. I mean we probably
we felt really stressed back then.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Absolutely exactly Every generation has their stress.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
But today, yeah, but today, I mean particularly today post pandemic,
where the whole world has been sort of been teetering
with respect to mental wellness. So there's off the charge.
Stress increases for kids teens and so there's a lot
of self medication. And you can tell us a little
(22:57):
bit more about the fascinating discovery with respect to children
who have a predisposition to a psychosis.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yeah, I mean, you know, this has been a debate
for many years where you know a lot of data,
early data had shown that people who tended to have
a risk for schizophrenia for example, or psychosis, they were
the ones who tended to have consumed cannabis. But it
might have been self medicating. And so is it that
(23:28):
it was it the cannabis that induced that, or is
it that they already had the predisposition. But either way,
cannabis seems to have revealed that more or at least sooner.
And so that's one of the issues as well. There
are studies that have replicated those findings. Many they have
studies that have shown that actually it's not a replication,
(23:49):
but it's really about their genetics. There's a combination and
the environment and the environmental stressors that are there. But
it emphasizes one thing we don't know. There are so
many variables that the whole goal is to take away
some of the variables. So if you can take away
cannabis use, and especially high potency cannabis use, you take
(24:13):
away one variable that's increasing the risk for your child.
If you can help them with their stress management without
substance use, Where does cannabis bind in the brain. Why
do people feel that they self medicate and that this
drug could help them with their anxiety or whatever. And
they point to like, we have a natural cannabinoid system
(24:35):
in us, and that's true. It's called the endocannabinoid system,
and that endogenous cannabinoid system when our brain is developing
pren italy in early development, it actually helps to wire
the brain. So it plays a very fundamental role. The
endocannabinoid system is part of many biological processes in our
(24:55):
body and in our brain. It is critical for how
the cells can communicate with each other. You don't need
cannabis to actually get your brain to do some of
the things that you think cannabis is doing. You can
naturally find ways of teasing an impacting your own endogenous
cannabinoid system. And that's where I'm horrible at it, but
(25:16):
I'm gonna say, like aspects of meditation, yoga, you know,
things like that. People, it's like, how do you control
your own brain? That's what we need to teach kids,
because that is your endogenous cannabinoid system. When you take cannabis,
you now actually change your endogenous cannabinoid system, because now
(25:37):
it's so overloaded that it now shuts down parts where
it should not be shut down. So people don't understand
that cannabis is changing our own natural of who we are.
And you can do things and tap into your own
you know. And so as I said, I'm horrible meditating.
(26:00):
I'm actually myself a pretty intense person.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
But I'm not a good meditator either.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
But I'm not a you know, I'm anxious when it
comes to like trying to meet all my deadlines and
so on. But I think the things I'm anxious about
are normal, which I have to make kids realize that
sometimes their world, the things that they're dealing with, is normal,
that they're feeling this anxious and it's fine. I think
that we feel that we must nullify everything right, and
(26:29):
it's biology. It's normal, And I think sometimes just to
make kids realize they're normal.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
No, it's so true. The podcast has had a resident
psychiatrist that comes on every once in a while and
talks to us about this, and he always says, stress
is good. I mean, anxiety is good. The problem is
when you can no longer manage it exactly. But anxiety
is motivational. It is not a bad thing, so.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Exactly, and teaching kids earlier you learn how do you
manage stress? How do you manage anxiety that you can control?
You can have control. I think for me the biggest
thing is and from their children. I won't even wait
till kids are you know, teens. It's about empowerment. Having
your kids realize that they actually control their bodies nobody
(27:13):
else should. And when kids have are grown raised in
that way, I think that they can say no more
to things when substances are offered to them, because they're like,
do I do I want this? Not if my friends
want this. You don't have to judge your friends, even
if you know if all your a lot of your
friends are taking drugs, you have to think, is this
(27:35):
the group you really that reflects you? But this is
about you and not other people. And I think this
is a thing today's world because also social media, they
are there's much more this pressure. There's always a pressure
to be part of a group, but today's world there's
much greater pressure than when your parents. You know your audience, we're.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
All on view now and yes, exactly, so I think
that that kind of pressure no generations ever had before.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
And this is the thing of how do we get
kids come back to themselves? And I think that that's
what's missing today.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
So you know, that's a really helpful perspective because parents
coming to this conversation are worried about something very specific
like drug use, But the bigger lesson is helping our
children learn to cope with things that would make them
want to be dependent on something else to make them
feel better. So part of the conversation about drugs is
(28:33):
the acknowledgment that people do go to legal drugs and
I mean, yep, they have a glass of wine. I
mean we see it in the world. You can't pretend
that no one does that, but that there are other ways.
It's not the panacea. That's not the go to for
feeling better, for helping yourself feel better.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Not feeling better long term, because what happens is then
you need that drug, not just that night, the next night,
the next and then it becomes your crutch when and
no matter how you can say, oh, I'm not addict,
I don't need it, you stop start craving. Oh you
were wrong. That tells you that it's not you. It
(29:15):
was the substance, and that's the issue.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Okay, So anti doctor heard, tell, what do you tell
the many young people that come to you and say,
I mean, as I said, the barn doors, open, the
horses out. It's not we cannot what we could say,
avoid all of this. Avoid cannabis at all costs. You
are forbidden, but for your lifetime. Because I mean, truthfully,
(29:39):
let me, before I finished asking me that question, I'll
back up and say that your research has indicated that,
as we've said, different healing properties, mostly CBD, and that frankly,
the young developing brain can have some negative impact of cannabis.
The young developing brain can also have negative impact from alcohol.
I mean there are other things that So what would
(30:00):
you say is if you've got a teen and they say,
I don't care what you say, I'm going to smoke.
At some point, what do you say to your to
the children that come to you and say and they say, okay,
at what age does it make sense for my brain
to try this?
Speaker 2 (30:15):
I always used to tease my little ones as a gull,
and I would say, wait till your brain has reached
full maturity, which really is like your mid twenties, you know,
Because for whatever reason, we still don't understand it. We
do know that there's a difference of vulnerability for substances
in the developing brain versus the adult brain. So that's
one of the things as well. So the later you
(30:37):
can really get into deep experimentation with drugs, the better
for for you. As I said, we don't know why
we're trying to understand the developing brain in this context,
but that is absolutely clear. So you know, I know
a lot of people probably won't want to wait until
they're midwenty five. I'm like, even question more at thirty now,
(30:57):
but I'm like, you know, but I do think that
it's about educating them about alcohol, nicotine, cannabis. The difference
between alcohol and cannabis today comes back to what we
were talking about earlier potency. So one of the things
that we know is that a lot of teens are
starting younger today, but they're starting with high potency TC.
(31:22):
So when you're having a conversation with your kids, they
have to know that they don't know what's in the cannabis.
That to me is a big, big issue. The alcohol actually,
you know, whether you know it's wine or beer or
they may get into the vodka. You actually know. Another
thing that's happening, which I think probably parents may not
(31:44):
realize with cannabis and some other quote unquote even more
not as hard drugs, is that people have now started
to lace cannabis with synthetic opoids like fentanil. What it
does is that it makes kids addicted much quicker, and
so then it gets their clientele up quickly. So the
(32:07):
conversations you have to have is like where did you
get the Where you know when if you're going to
try it, know where it's coming from. Even some of
the people are dealing it don't even probably know that
it's laced with these things. So the adulterance in cannabis today,
So that's one good thing about legalization is that the
(32:28):
dispensaries and the stores that are given the licenses to
provide recreational cannabis, even though sometimes when they have been
tested they're not necessarily accurate to what they say that
should be in their product, they're getting tested more often
so they're getting better at it. But at least it
shouldn't have fentanil, it shouldn't have other adulterance, and that
(32:50):
to me, at least it comes back as I said earlier,
it's about safety. You know, teens are going to be
exposed to a lot today, much more than they or
in the past. They have to be empowered to be
able to be open to asking questions about the people
who when they're given stuff, and these are the things
(33:11):
that they should, you know, really ask about.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Quick question that occurs to me, does it matter edibles
versus smoking or is it?
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yeah, it does, I mean edibles. I mean, ironically more
people go to the emergency room now for cannabis than
they've ever done before. Why because of edibles. Because edibles
take a longer time to kick in. So by the
time people are like, oh, I'm not feeling anything, let
me eat some more, and they start eating more and
then it gets its really toxic bad levels. They start
(33:38):
then really hallucinating, having trips to the point where then
they end up in the emergency room. So the time
course of the high, the time course of how it
hits the body differs between the smoking and the edibles.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
So that's really good information for us to share with
our kids because they may not know that. And you
can actually at the worst case, save yourself a trip
to the hospital. But in an easier hopefully not that
severe case. Know that if you do ingest whatever age
you are, and hopefully you're an older age, if it
(34:16):
doesn't hit immediately, you know why and you're not you're not.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Just do not keep taking exactly, because that's one of
the things that's really really critical. And edibles, I think
that they've gotten a little better now again if you
buy from reputable stores, reputable but you know companies, because
edibles when they made them, it's not evenly distributed. So
(34:44):
the TC in there, and so you could have something
really next to the piece, next to someone's piece that
they consume and you don't have the same No, they
were not uniform oh interesting, and so that was one
of the things that we saw. And and it's not
just because somebody had a genetic risk.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
It's just that if potency was different exactly. But hopefully
that what with legalization and regulation of the various dispensaries,
hopefully exactly that danger has been.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Even for them. Those companies have found ways of In
the beginning, even they did not have uniformity in all
of their edible pieces. But now it's better.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Huh. Well, that's really good to know now, just as
a side note, The problem with that perspective that the
government took is that they delayed for years researching.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Well, you know, so I'm going to say yes and no.
So what people don't understand about research, perhaps is that
most of the research that's done, at least that's funded
by the National Institutes of Health and Age, it's investigator driven.
So most investigators didn't think that cannabis was a problem,
so they would study cocaine, they would study heroin and nicotine.
(35:52):
So that's why we know a lot about nicotine and alcohol.
We didn't study cannabis because they didn't think that it
was an issue. So it's I think people think that
there was a you know, like this collusion to stop research.
There wasn't. It's just that what research people thought to
study for the developing brain was really alcohol and nicotine,
(36:16):
and for adults it was cocaine. And then when heroin
opio had started to come from opioids. And this is
where I do think that the government should play a
bigger role. We shouldn't wait till people are like dying
before we start to investigate.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Well, just this week, the White House has come out
with a declaring because I wanted to talk about fentanyl.
But this combination of fentanyl and xylazine, which is known
as trenk, it's like an animal tranquilize. Yeah, exactly, and
they've declared it an emerging threat in quotes because that
triggers the ability to start spending money on figuring out
(36:55):
more about it.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Exactly. Salazine started off this little thing and now it's
you know, infiltrated practically the whole us. And this adulterant,
this contaminant with the opioids because people get this big high,
but it's a tranquilizer, it's an animal tranquilizer. It produces
a lot of damage in the body. So again, all
(37:17):
of these synthetic adulterants that are in products that many
people don't realize that they're consuming. I think our society
in this, you know, like this moral issue, the stigma
that comes with it and the criminalization of it just
makes this cycle to make it worse, rather than say,
(37:38):
if we recognize that this is a norm in our
society because this is a drug country, how do we
deal with it is a reflection of us as a society,
and we deal with it by trying to think that okay,
if we lock them up, then it's a way, and
it's not because we're not treating those individuals. All we're
doing is locking them up worsening their addiction because they now,
(38:02):
especially when people come out, they overdose, often become they
go back to the same thing, and you know, it's
just this cycle. So for me, if we really want
to help society, we need to be more open about
substance use as we are about you know, every disorder
and treated as such, and that I think would also
(38:23):
help parents and discussions and kids themselves. You know, a
lot of teens don't want to do things. It's the
pressure and so yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Right, right, yeah, I agree that Asa s asked about
how you develop an open communication with your child about drugs,
and it really does speak to what you're saying. We
are a society that uses drugs. I mean, we medicate
with drugs. I mean we even fd provement right absolutely,
(38:52):
and as opposed to there being this camp of people
who have nothing to do with it. In this camp
of people who I'm now saying drugs, any kind of
stimulant of any kind, it's in the world, and so
we have to just say.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
No does not work. It doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
It doesn't work at all. I want to get back
to fenyl, but just a little more because it's become
this big buzzword now, I mean it is can you
it's a synthetic opioid? Me, it's man made? Then?
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, it's like nearly one hundredfold more potent than morphine.
It is extremely potent, and.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
It's killing more people than heroin now correct? Right?
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Right? Yeah, So here's my night take because I'm not
I don't know about fentanyl. Do people take it by
itself or does it only get put into drugs, so,
you know, other drugs.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Yeah, so it's both. So in the beginning when they
started to put fentanyl in, why one, it's cheaper for
them to make and to ship to the US. You remember,
like you know when people to ship heroin, they're big
blocks and so on these as I just said, it's like,
if it's like fifty times more potent than heroin, you
(40:00):
just need a little amount of it. So you could
put it, you could ship it or hide it, I
should say, in a much easier way than you could heroin.
So it came a lot through China, and then China
went through Mexico, and the Mexico and through and people
then started becoming more addicted to it, so that God,
as it said, their clientele increased the lug. You get
more people addicted. Yes, people are dying more, but the
(40:23):
addiction kicks in much faster now when people have gotten addicted.
Now many people are choosing fentanyl. So initially it was
just that they were they were using heroin. Fentanyl happened
to be in there. There are now kits that people
can buy, even for in hospital. There are some harm
(40:43):
reduction sites where they'll test your drug for you to
show whether or not there's any fentanyl in there. But
now there are people so addicted to fentanyl, to that huge,
huge high that they're choosing it, and that is more
dangerous and again obviously that's why there's more deaths and
(41:03):
so correct. So we keep evolving. So you know, we
went from the prescription opioids, then those who got clapped down,
then people switched to a heroine, and then now people
are switching to fentanyl. This is the problem that we have.
Addiction is real. Addiction is deadly because you know, people think, oh,
(41:26):
just stop, just say no, it's not that easy. It
has completely taken over the brain. And even when people
don't want to, they don't want to lose their friends
and families, their homes, right themselves, and even their lives.
It is so powerful and I don't think people understand
(41:46):
the restructuring, physical restructuring of the brain that occurs that
changes that individual.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Well. One of our listeners, gwen A, was noting that
it's a topic high school. It's it's a big topic
around schools, and she's asked about how we talk to
our teens about it, and it sounds like, I mean,
we've given lots of ways to first of all, to
define what it is and then to know that it's
something to be avoided at all costs. So this concept
of narcan, I mean darkan being.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Is then antagonist. So NARCN so your opioid receptors in
your brain, the opioids bind to it, and so NARCN
is the antagonist that kicks them off.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
AH.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
One of the things about fentanyl, it is so potent
that you may need even narkan would quickly like reverses
an overdose from heroin fentanil. You may need even three
times narcan and then fentanyl in the body. It will
get kicked off and it'll come back on. Kicked off,
come back on. That's to tell you again the deadly
(42:51):
nature of fentanyl. So narcn is really important and I
do think that it should be everywhere in our society
today in terms of even schools. But you know, going
back to Gwenna and the questions, I do think waiting
till your teens are teens. It's also I think start
kids about those having open discussions. I think our society
(43:13):
treats drugs and same way. When do you start talking
about sex with your kids? Do you wait until they
are eighteen? No, hopefully you're talking and having discussions about
things before it becomes an issue. And as I said,
you know, for me, why do you need the drug?
I think often it's like kids learn about question themselves
(43:37):
why am I doing this? Why am I going to?
And it doesn't have to be about drugs. If it's
the same questions are asked for other things the same
way that you ask drugs, then the drug thing doesn't
become so stressful to talk to your kids about. And
I think this is the thing we make them into
these big conversations. Have those conversations all the time. The
(44:00):
news is showing you every day have those conversations. Did
you know about this? You know what's fentanil talked? You know?
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Right? Yeah, right, Yeah, I think you're right. We perhaps
the way that some parents feel about talking with their
children about sex, we do. We kind of sort of
get built up for this conversation. And that actually leads
me to another question I want to ask you about,
and that is that so many parents, because of their
own historic drug use, recreational drug use. I mean, assuming
(44:30):
a parent was not addicted, but if parents went through
recreational drug use and stopped at some point or didn't stop,
they feel that they are they're being hypocritical when they
tell their children sort of wait or because they can
remember that when they were fifteen, eighteen, whatever, they didn't wait.
We have to based in great part in what you
(44:52):
said at the onset that it's a different world of
drugs out there. Yeah. So there are a lot of
things to respond. Firstus that it's a different world. This
is not your drugs and these are different drugs. And secondly,
this sort of the admission of drug use is so fraught.
I think parents can get caught up in that part.
(45:13):
I mean, the question is you know when your child
says to you, well, you know, what did you use?
I remember having that moment where it's like do I
what do I say? But but I think a good
answer to that is that's almost relevant. I mean it
doesn't matter. I understand the temptation, but let me tell
you that it's different. I mean it's like, you know,
if I would never advise any child of mine to
(45:35):
drink what was that alcohol? That was just grain great?
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Exactly?
Speaker 1 (45:41):
So any thoughts on how parents should approach this if
in fact they because we're describing we are describing a
world in which some people have had recreational drug use
and may even still have recreational drug use that they manage,
and they manage well, and they're not addicted, and they
treat it. They treat say I'm sticking with marijuana for that.
They treat it like a glass of wine or you know,
(46:02):
periodically and they're fine bits. And so that how a
parent who is sort of in that frame of mind
talk to their child about sort of just not just
say no, but wait a minute or right.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
But you know, the funny thing is, I think those
parents actually have a better chance of connecting with their kids,
the parents who have never used, you know, they may
even have this. Well I never did you know right
that context, And as we said, and you reiterated, this
is a different world back then. You are not going
(46:39):
to die from like being something being laced with fentanyl.
Their risk is much higher today. Yeah, So I think
it's being honest with Yes, I experimented. You know today
I'm more scared. And I think talking to your kids
about the fear, it's not about them. It's not about
(47:00):
the stigma and the so on. It's about your fear
and your love for them. And I think everybody resonates
that I am important that somebody loves me, and that's
my mother, my father, my unt my grandparents, and that
open conversation. You know, I am afraid because of this.
(47:21):
I understand that you want to try it, but really
understand first what you're using, who are you getting it from,
and know that this is a very potent drug. Perhaps
you can use one of the cannabis strains from the
eighties and the nineties, you know, to four presentac there
(47:43):
is nothing wrong with that. You know, can make a
joke of things. How your kids not that it has
to be is how do you have open conversation, so
everybody to know their kids of like, what gives that opportunity.
But it is all about caring. It's not about I
don't want you to do this. And they are. Their
(48:04):
brains are developing in a manner where yes, I'm being
a neuroscientist, now forgive me. You know, their prefrontal cortex
is not yet fully mature, so decision making is complicated
by the fact that other brain structures called the below
the cortex, the subcortical structures that are really craving social
(48:28):
connectivity and acceptance, those are much more prominent. And the
brain areas that are also more sensitive to reward are
also more heightened. So finding things that your teen finds
rewarding can sometimes overcompensate for the drug thing because their
neural circuits about reward is so high. That's why I
(48:51):
said the love this the unconditional thing. It's important for teens.
They may act like, oh yeah, I don't you know
that hug they do. It is when people feel that
they matter. It starts early. Their life is important. That's
what you're as a parent. You know, you want them
(49:12):
to be the best adult and their best self and
drugs can change that trajectory, not forever. Like you said,
there are some parents who had a substance use disorder
when they were younger and were able to control it
and get back their lives, and they can say that
to their kids.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Or they just used it and enjoyed it and they
stop using it exactly. They didn't even it didn't even
graduate to a disorder.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Exactly, but they can say I did that, but today
I would be so scared for my younger self because
of where drugs are today, and they can put it
in that context. I mean, like I said, I think
being honest is better than to say, you know, don't
do drugs. So with that said, I'm going to tell
that my friends all paid when I went to call,
(50:00):
I had never even drank out all so they all joke.
And I always tell that, you know that I became
a neuroscientists who study addiction, they find funny. So they're like, yes,
but and you never have tried anything, you know. So
my friends we said, when I'm eighty, We're all going
to open up the drugs in my safe, you know,
and real CARTI but at least I know those drugs
(50:22):
are pure exactly.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
Well, this has been so so so helpful. I'm just looking.
We had some listener questions and we seem to have
covered them all. Actually, there's one we've talked about the
opening up about drug experimentation, and then how one question
about how we talked with our children about mental health
and drug use. And we've talked about that because if
(50:46):
we can we find that our children are interested because
they make it will feel make them feel better, perhaps
we can explore what it is they are trying to
feel better about.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
And I'm sorry I also say you also know your family.
If your family has a history of certain mental health disorders,
you know that your child might have a risk. Right,
So these are things again early on, how do you
even get a psychologist to help your child? You know,
(51:18):
to make sure that these co occurring disorders are met
earlier than later. And so those are the things I
think as well.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
And the same would be if you have someone in
your family who has a substance exactly issue. There is
a genetic component to that, so.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
You have to also just again open acknowledgment. That's you
know you might have a risk, the same thing we
would say for cancer. That's why I think you know
this whole thing of stigma with addiction. If your family
has a risk for a very breast cancer, so on,
you'll have your daughter start having a mammogram much earlier
than her peers do. Why this is her family risk.
(51:55):
So it's being open about that and certain cancers. You
know you shouldn't do this because you may have a risk.
The same thing you can say to your team so
that they know their family history.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
I'll ask you the listener question. But before I just
wanted to say this. I've said this to you before.
What's so interesting to me is the sort of dueling
circumstances of cannabis being so much now in the forefront,
I mean, legalized in almost every state, and all of
this unknown. But what's so interesting is I have family
(52:30):
member and I have lots of friends who are looking
to get in the cannabis business. And when I knew
I was going to one of my sons is and
I talked to him as I was talking to you,
and I confirm that the companies with the key works
highly highly support this kind of research absolutely because everyone,
I mean, they want to be safe, they want their
(52:51):
consumers to be safe.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
And I'm going to come back to you know, I said,
I mean, most of our research is on CBD for
the medicinal parts. When I look at the cannabis in
terms of mental health risk, I look at development and TC.
We do know, and there's some research being done, and
thank goodness that maybe a little TC might help certain
kids with certain genetic developmental disorders. So TC might indeed
(53:17):
for some individuals be important their for some of the
disorders that they have. And that's why you need research,
and all the companies should be supporting research, because then
we will know what is the ratio of this cannabinoid
versus that, and for which individuals there is no medication
on this planet FD approved or otherwise that will work
(53:39):
perfectly for everyone. I mean, even when I talk about
the diagnosis of cannabis use disorder, most psychiatric diagnoses are
kind of arbitrary, in part because we don't yet have
exact biological markers to say you have this degree of
this disorder this degree. And we know that substance use
(54:00):
disorders they run a range, and we call them mild, modern,
and severe now but the same thing medications will be
for some subgroups of those individuals for this medication may
work for them. Another medication may work for another, and
that's where science and medicine needs to be. And cannabis
may help for this particular disorder, but it might worsen others.
(54:21):
So you have to know what will work for you.
And that's why gasat the companies that are going into
the space. It benefits them that perhaps one of their
products may turn out to be, you know, the next
big thing to help X disorder.
Speaker 1 (54:38):
Right. One final listener question which I thought was interesting
and I'm not sure that you will know this answer,
but I'll ask you because of your work in CBD.
She asked what can safely be taken for extreme chronic pain?
And what I'm interpreting that because people have said that
CBD can help, But is there a danger I guess
of relying on CB. I guess for parents and for
(55:01):
children alike, and children use CBD for chronic pain.
Speaker 2 (55:05):
There's no research on kids for chronic pain, like I
mentioned earlier, CBD for like you know, seizure disorders, More
and more research are being done. The pain studies are
also for the most part done on adults. We don't
know the dose range for CBD, and we don't even
know if CBD by itself will alleviate pain. There may
(55:25):
be again some need for a little TC, but I
will say that I know a eighty something year old
woman chronic pain most of her adult life CBD. She's
skipping around. I'm telling her, she's acting like she's twenty one.
She's still remember she is over eighty, you know, And
other people tried it and it doesn't work. So that's
(55:45):
why I said, you need research to figure out who
benefits and who doesn't. And most of the clinical research
done with CBD is at very high doses versus what
you can buy in your you know, local, you know, boutique.
Ten and twenty milligram CBD is not what's being looked
at clinically. It's more over two hundred milligrams, so, you know,
(56:07):
so things like that, we don't really know yet what
will be the right cutoff and also for which particular pain.
So pain is also this huge umbrella term, so most
likely for more inflammatory type pain. As I said my
older lady, that indicates that a lot of her pain
was inflammatory, and that will be you know, I think
(56:31):
where many people are looking today. So even as we're
doing some pain research, but it's still at research level.
Speaker 1 (56:37):
Right now, Wow, this has been such an informative conversation.
I've loved hearing all this and having this conversation with you.
So I bet I'm going to wrap it up here
and say thank you so much. As just before you go,
I'm going to do ask you to do what I
ask all my guests to do, and it is to
(56:57):
participate in a version of the Lightning Round GCP Groundctoral
Parenting Lightning Round. Just two questions and for our listening audience,
I did not tell her this ahead of times.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
No, you did not, So now I'm feeling like, uh oh,
I'm in school again. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (57:11):
One is do you have a favorite poem or saying?
Did your mom have a favorite poem or saying or
something you remember well?
Speaker 2 (57:19):
Right now remembering one of the things that my mom
to the mom used to say, No good deed goes
unpunished and the path to hell us paind with good intentions,
So you know, I always trying to help people. And
then yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (57:32):
I'd say no GOODI goes unpunished on a regular basis.
Speaker 2 (57:35):
That's so funny.
Speaker 1 (57:36):
Yeah I do. And then finally, do you have any
favorite children's books that you remember from when you were growing.
Speaker 2 (57:42):
Up or well, you know, I grew up in Jamaica
and we used to have a Nancy Stories. Oh Nancy, yeah, yeah,
so you know, so some of those and but one
of my it's it's a children's book, but it's an
adult book as well. The Places You'll Go. Oh yes, yes,
doctor SEUs, doctor Sus, you know, yeah, exactly, doctor Sus.
(58:05):
And I don't know why it has resonated throughout my life,
The Places You'll Go, And I think.
Speaker 1 (58:10):
Yeah, well, that is the magic of children's books. And
that's why I asked, because children's books, no matter how
old we are, it can be inspiring and make us
feel great. Great answers, great information. Thank you, Thank you
so much. I thank you the listeners, thank you, and
thank you to the listeners for sending in questions. But
this has been great.
Speaker 2 (58:29):
Thanks so much, Carol appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (58:31):
I hope everyone listening enjoyed this conversation and that you'll
come back for more. Please rate, review, and subscribe wherever
you listen to podcasts, and tell your friends. For more
parenting info and advice, please check out the ground Control
Parenting blog at groundcontrol parenting dot com. You can also
find us on Instagram and Facebook at Ground Control Parenting
(58:51):
and on LinkedIn under Carol Sutton Lewis. The Ground Control
Parenting with Carol Sutton Lewis podcast is a part of
the Seneca Women Podcast now in partnership with iHeartMedia. Until
the next time, take care and thanks for listening.
Hello, and welcome to Ground Control Parenting, a blog and
now a podcast created for parents raising black and brown children.
I'm the creator and your host, Carol Sutton Lewis. In
this podcast series, I talk with some really interesting people
about the job and the joy of parenting. Today, I
am talking about how parents can get smart and help
their children get smart about drug use with neuroscientists. Doctor
(00:26):
Yasmin Heard. Doctor Hurd, is the director of the Addiction
Institute at Mount Sinai here in New York City, and
she's also Mount Signia's Ward Coleman Chair of Translational Neuroscience.
Her disciplinary research investigates the neurobiology underlying addiction disorders and
related psychiatric illnesses. A major focus of this research is
directed to risk factors of addiction disorders, including genetics, as
(00:48):
well as developmental exposure to cannabis. Now that the majority
of states in the US have legalized or decriminalized marijuana
used for medical and or recreational purposes, the spotlight is
fully on doctor Yasmin Heard and her pioneering work on
the effects of marijuana on the developing brain. Her research
has been featured not only in scientific journals, but also
in popular culture as well. It's been a Time magazine
(01:08):
cover story as well as the focus of documentaries from
CNN and PBS, and she is the perfect expert to
help us learn what we need to know about marijuana
and other drugs. Doctor Hurb was born in Jamaica and
moved here to New York City with her family when
she was a young teen. She's a graduate of Sunny
Binghamton and she completed her pH d at the world
renowned Karlinska Institute in Sweden, where she taught about thirteen
(01:28):
years before coming to Mount SINAI welcome to Ground Control Parenting,
Doctor Hurd.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Thanks for having me. It's really great to talk with you.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I am so thrilled to learn about you and your
work and to discover this scientific superstar in our midst
and who happens to be a black woman. And I'm
so thrilled that you're with us today to share info
on a topic that concerns many parents, what we need
to know and what we need to tell our kids
about drug use, abuse and addiction. So let's get started.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I hope I'll be able to answer some of your
questions help your audience.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
I'm sure you will well. First, let me tell you
that I actually solicited members of the audience to ask
for questions. I got several questions, and I will sprinkle
them into our conversation and at the end, I'll ask
you a few others. Okay, So first, generally speaking, let's
talk about what parents should know about drugs that are
on the market today. So parents come to these discussions
(02:22):
of drug use from a variety of vantage points. Some
of them never went near any drugs, others sort of dabbled,
and some may still use them recreationally, only the legal ones.
But regardless of where you were on that spectrum, it
seems as if parents, with their parenting had on need
to know some basics about current drug use and availability.
(02:45):
So can you talk to me a little bit about
the differences between the drugs in early generations and the
drugs now.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I think that this is one of the issues with
parents today because and with anything, as a parent, I think,
you know, you look at your experience and the experiences
that your children have, but it's always guided by what
you went through, right, and therefore you give your knowledge
to them, and you know your parents did it to you,
and you sometimes obviously rolled your eyes and didn't listen, right,
(03:12):
And it's the same thing. But there's a huge difference
when it comes to drugs. Drugs in you know, even
you know, I don't know how young your audience is,
but even twenty years ago, the drugs are different from
thirty forty, fifty years ago, and a major issue. There
are a couple things. One the wide variety of drugs
(03:33):
that are out there today. You know, when people and
even when cannabis got its heyday with the hippie and
the seventies, you know, these were mainly young adults, people
forget going to college and so on. The potency of
the cannabis even that they use back then so different
and we can talk later more about that than the
(03:54):
potency of the cannabis today. Back then there was really
two strains of cannabis that were available. Today there's a
cornucopia of cannabis strains and that's just one drug. The
same thing goes for when you think about opioids, I mean,
opioids are you know, when you think about drugs, people
think of cannabis as the low, you know, more milder
(04:17):
types of drug versus you know, the what we call it,
you know, like the heavy heater drugs like opioids like
cocaine and heroin. Opioids today so much more potent of
these synthetic drugs. So again you have this broad variety
of substances that teens and young adults and everybody have
access to than you did twenty thirty, forty fifty years ago.
(04:40):
So it is the availability of drugs and it's the
potency of these drugs that are also a huge issue
that there is no way parents today are even even
if they experimented a lot back when they were teens
and young adults, it's nowhere near the same. And also
availability before people had to really oh that to know
(05:05):
someone through this or that, and then they would sneak
and go into oh, everything is available at the click
of a button today for teens and young adults. So
you have those three things and more that have made
this huge I call it perfect storm and why we
have a greater substance use problem today than we did
in the past.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
So, say I'm a parent who has had no experience
with drugs, how does one get a really reliable perspective
on the current state of drugs and drug usage?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
The Internet is a source of good and evil because indeed,
you can kill yourself deep diving in the Internet and
you can read things that are actually not true. I
think perhaps people should start at the National Institute of
Drug Abuse and National Institutes of Alcohol Abuse, the NIEH,
(06:01):
I should say, the NIH organizations. There are also some
local state organizations that also give I think more fundamental
information about substances. But even the NIH, NAIDA and IPlate
those are the two substance use institutes. They have sections
for parents, they have even sections for teens. Schools showed
(06:24):
the Department of Education some states, I don't think all
also provide some information about what drugs they see, and
that's there in terms of for parents as well on
their websites, and also I think could be good sources.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yeah. No, those are great suggestions. So let's dive into
the drugs. Let's first talk about cannabis, because parents need
to get smart on what's out there, and cannabis is
out there for sure. So one of my listeners had
a question, which is shared i'm sure by so many
other parents. With cannabis being legally accessible and so many states,
(07:01):
what should we tell our teens and our younger children
about using cannabis? And I want to start with all
of the reasons why all the pushback you get when
you have these conversations. It's it's less has less impact
than alcohol and tobacco. But you've heard them all, I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Yeah. You know the thing that I think that we
should look at substances and not compare them in the
context of I think about the analogy. Do you prefer
to jump out of the building on the third floor,
fifth floor, tenth floor? You know, I think that is
such a weird comparison. And yes, alcohol and tobacco are
two legal drugs, and now cannabis has joined that. But
(07:45):
if we think about it, alcohol and tobacco have killed
more people in our country than so many other things.
So you can tell your kids, Yeah, alcohol and tobacco
are legal, and now cannabis has joined those ranks. But
those drugs are very deadly. We have learned about those drugs.
We have more data on those drugs, ironically than we
(08:08):
do on cannabis. So now people, you know, use cigarettes
and alcohol in a more manageable recreational level, but not
everyone does, and those people who don't have serious problems,
really serious problems. So I don't want people to downplay
(08:29):
these substances as cannabis, yes, has not become legal, and
I think it should have been decriminalized. I find it
so sad that for so long this war on drugs
was really about putting down and really imprisoning black and
brown people for using cannabis, and it destroyed communities more
(08:49):
so than the substance use did. And so we need
to make sure just because you know, I am definitely
for decriminalization, but I'm not for promotion of cannabis use.
And that's why I think that people sometimes try to
straddle this line. There is no line. There is a
health risk for substance use. We can moderate the amount
(09:10):
of use, just life with tobacco and with alcohol. I
have a glass of wine? Is that a good thing?
Some days when I've come home, it's like on a
Friday night, I'm like, I need a glass of wine.
Do I drink a bottle of wine? No? But some
other people do. And so it's the same thing with cannabis.
So I think that it's now legal and it needs
(09:31):
to be regulated in a manner just like cigarettes and alcohol,
to protect their children. End of the day. For me,
this is about how do you protect it? Doesn't matter
cannabis or anything else. How do you protect those most
vulnerable in our society? And black and brown people have
been the ones who have been persecuted the most and
(09:52):
are the most vulnerable, and they're still the most vulnerable.
I feel with this casualness about can.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Boy, You've said so much there that I'd love to unpack.
And historically the government has participated in this effort to
make cannabis this horrible thing and to scare everyone. They
just say no the reefer madness. And as you've said
in articles I've read the import of that now is
that when you try to scare someone it's something they
(10:23):
get so cynical that they're loath to actually believe any
kind of negativity. And with respect to cannabis, and this
is what I want to talk to you about first,
there are some really positive things there are Your research
is really trying to explore some of the healing properties
of cannabis. Can you just give us a little primer
on the CBD versus the THCHC?
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yeah? You know, so, I start this also by saying,
and this is again people get into this like it
must be black or white. I don't know any substance
any medication, even those that are approved by the FDA
that doesn't have side effects. What we do in medicine
and research is to figure out what are the benefits
of certain things and what are the negative things that
(11:07):
we can hopefully mitigate, and usually we mitigate those by
the dosing by targeting certain individuals who we know if
they have a genetic risk or what other health conditions
they have. So the same thing with cannabis. People think
that cannabis is this one drug and it's not. Cannabis
is actually one of the most complex plants on the planet,
(11:28):
and it's gotten more complex because we have now designed
newer strains, so you have over five hundred chemicals in
this plant. So we had mainly studied THC, which is
the main psychoactive component of cannabis that produces the high,
you know, the euphoria with that impacts negatively on your
(11:49):
short term memory, your motn coordination, and so on, and
that's what we had seen actually had a negative impact
on the developing brain. I wanted to see if because
when we in our human studies we study cannabis, but
in our animal models we studyed THC, one component of cannabis,
so I want to see if there's another component, if
(12:10):
that also did the same, And that's why we started
studying CBD, cannabidial and it's a low percentage cannabinoid in
the plant. And when we studied it, we were very
surprised to see actually that it decreased heroin seeking behavior
in animal models. And then we did human clinical studies
and found that it decreased craving and anxiety in people
(12:32):
with a heroin use disorder. I will tell you many
people in the field, scientists and physicians didn't believe our
results to start, so we got a lot of pushback.
It took us a while to publish that, and now
the whole world is like, oh, CBD. And the people
who used to hate me because they thought I was
anti cannabis, and I'm not anti cannabis. I'm about data
as a scientist and about data. And then now they
(12:54):
loved me because they were like, oh, you're showing that
cannabis can be beneficial, and I'm like, yes, but it's
a specific cannabinoid. It's a specific cannabinoid. And people the
legalization of cannabis came about due to CBD because they
pushed for I don't know if you remember Charlotte's Web,
and it was this little girl called Charlotte and had
(13:15):
epilepsy and her parents were trying to find and I
understand it when your child is sick. They were trying
to get help, and someone said this particular plant they
had heard was helping with people with epilepsy, and they
brought their daughter to Colorado and the strain that they
now developed with CBD's had a higher concentration of CBD
(13:38):
helped to improve her epilepsy.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
But one second, Charlotte's Web is that Charlotte's Web is
the person's name.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
So Charlotte is the young the girl. Charlotte's Web was
a spider this childhood. Yeah, And so they called it
Charlotte's Web, you know, in terms of for the strain,
and they made a thing of yeah. So they made
you know, they made this strain her name for her.
And so one of the things about that was that
it revolutionized people who were trying to legalize cannabis, and
(14:11):
so they said, here, cannabis can can cure epilepsy. And
it actually is now the only so epid dialectsis CBD
that has approved by the FDA to treat childhood forms
too rare childhood forms of epilepsy and even off label
some other caesar disorders. That gave the impetus that, oh,
(14:34):
cannabis can be used as a medicine, but it was CBD.
It wasn't cannabis. So it's important that people understand that
THHC and high THC cannabis strains may have beneficial some
medicinal purposes, and we can talk about that, but CBD
is very different from cannabis. And so you know, people
(14:55):
tried to fuzz the line when they're saying, oh, we
legalized cannabis because CBD were But CBD is not cannabis.
It's a specific cannabinoid.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
If parents can look at marijuana use like they would
look at alcohol use or tobacco use, and I know,
I'm going to stick with alcohol because alcohol, unfortunately, is
still very popular for underage children. The big disadvantage with
respect to cannabis consumption is with alcohol, there's a limit.
I mean, there's some regulations on you know, if you're
(15:27):
driving and you're over the limit. I mean, there are
ways for people outside of the people that have been
with you while you've been taking this to figure out
how much you've taken. And with cannabis, I don't know
if there's a way to tell how much you've taken,
but there's no measure of what is going to be
okay and not dangerous.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Well there you know, more and more research is being
done and there are measures. Obviously, no parent would allow
their child and you should never allow police to take
your child's blood levels. If they take you know, get
your lawyer. You know. At the end of the day,
as I said, I want to protect kids. I don't
think the kids should be locked up and so your
child pulled over, nobody takes their blood. If they take
(16:05):
their blood, then they can get the levels. And we
do know the levels. But I say even to you know,
if you're with someone and they're consuming cannabis, it impacts
on their motor coordination and their cognition. So do not
get in a car with them. The same thing as
if you're with your friends and you're drinking alcohol, have
(16:25):
a designated driver. It's the same way as you would
with alcohol. The same with cannabis. So make sure you
keep safe and you know, the conversations that you have
with your kids that need to be open and honest,
you know that kids are going to experiment. Many of
your is that your parents, many of them fall into
the when they were teens and young adults, they experimented too.
(16:48):
It's about safety. And I say this to my friends kids.
I don't have kids myself. I'm on to everybody. Know
your friends. Do not get into a car with when
someone has consumed, no matter what as it is. And
luckily for many of us who live in cities where
there's uber, your parents will gladly go pick you up
(17:09):
or pay for an uber driver a driver than to
have you go in a car with someone who has consumed.
It's the same thing. It's about safety. Know where your kids,
which party that they're going to, know the home, whether
or not those parents are consumers themselves, what are they
allowing in their you know, the party. But I would
(17:29):
also say, unfortunately, you know, in some cities, especially big
urban cities, guns and with substance use, we have people
not thinking while they're consumed, right, and we have a
lot of young people dying or getting injured because of
guns and you know, and that to me, the combination
(17:50):
people don't talk about, but a lot of the actions
that the impulsive actions a lot of these young people
have is when they have consumed cannabis and other substances.
So cannabis is no different in that condition.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Right, we'll be right back after these messages. Welcome back
to the show. So let's clear up something that I'm
sure many parents don't even know about, or many parents
may not know. Can you become addicted to cannabis. There's
a theory that it's not addictive.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
So that is one of the biggest myths that you
can't get addicted to cannabis. And people then also try to,
you know, thread this needle that oh, it doesn't give
physical dependence versus psychological dependence. Around thirty percent of people
who use cannabis will develop a cannabis use disorder. And
it's the same number as for her and our cocaine.
(18:44):
But it's not because cannabis is as addictive as those
other substances. It's just because more people in the US
use cannabis. And if you look at just you know,
if you truncate that down, even if you look at
ever trying or so on, then perhaps about eleven percent
(19:04):
of people will develop a cannabis use disorder. But it's
the repeated use. You know, people think, Okay, I use
it this time, It's fine, I use it another time
and keep using it. The more you use it, the
greater your chance of developing cannabis use disorder. Not everyone
develops that. What we have seen and this is the
challenge today as compared to the days when your audience
(19:26):
were changes themselves, the potency of THT has gone up
so much that the vulnerability to develop a cannabis use
disorder increases, just like every other substance. The greater that concentration,
that potency of the primary agent in the drug, the greater.
As I said, your chance of developing an addiction so
(19:47):
and a cannabis use disorder. People don't realize it's a
clinically diagnosed disorder. You've lost control over your use. You're
craving the use if you don't take it. People think
that cannabis use disorder doesn't do anything physical to the body,
and that is actually not true. People go through physical withdrawals,
(20:07):
and it's not like alcohol withdrawals are opiate withdrawals. But
they go through withdrawals. They're sleep changes, they're aggressing their anger,
they're sweating, they're physiological and definitely a lot of psychological
issues of stopping subs that they're cannabis used. We see that,
you know, cannabis use disorder changes structural things in the
(20:29):
brain and also how certain neural circuits function similar to
other substance use disorders. So we know that it's not benign.
No one would be taking cannabis, if you know, and
smoking and getting high recreationally and all that, if it
didn't do something.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
For the brain.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
So to say that, oh it doesn't, you know it does.
The question is how much are you using the type
of strain that you're using, how often you're using it
that increases your risk of developing a disorder. And again
I'm going to come back to black and brown I
do think that we have and perhaps again I'm biased,
I'm a black person. You're not improving your chances of
(21:12):
getting to be who you are. The earlier to start
with cannabis, the more potent the cannabis that people are,
the kids are consuming today, it changes their trajectory. And
we want more healthy black and brown adults. And you
don't just miraculously become a healthy adult if your teenage
(21:34):
life is filled with so many other challenges that we
know that black and brown kids go through So I'm
a little bit more perhaps more biased of what are
the things that we need to provide our kids with
so that they can be more successful, and consuming high
potency cannabis does not do that. Will some of them
(21:56):
make it out, absolutely, but not focusing on the people
who make it out. I actually am focusing on the
kids who are most vulnerable, and today kids are There's
so much trauma, there's so much stress, and we know
the combination of cannabis with that exacerbates psychiatric risk, and
(22:19):
that to me is one of the issues as well.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, I know we have talked about that in earlier conversation,
that the stress of the world. I mean another difference
between our listener's youth and now. I mean we probably
we felt really stressed back then.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Absolutely exactly Every generation has their stress.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
But today, yeah, but today, I mean particularly today post pandemic,
where the whole world has been sort of been teetering
with respect to mental wellness. So there's off the charge.
Stress increases for kids teens and so there's a lot
of self medication. And you can tell us a little
(22:57):
bit more about the fascinating discovery with respect to children
who have a predisposition to a psychosis.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yeah, I mean, you know, this has been a debate
for many years where you know a lot of data,
early data had shown that people who tended to have
a risk for schizophrenia for example, or psychosis, they were
the ones who tended to have consumed cannabis. But it
might have been self medicating. And so is it that
(23:28):
it was it the cannabis that induced that, or is
it that they already had the predisposition. But either way,
cannabis seems to have revealed that more or at least sooner.
And so that's one of the issues as well. There
are studies that have replicated those findings. Many they have
studies that have shown that actually it's not a replication,
(23:49):
but it's really about their genetics. There's a combination and
the environment and the environmental stressors that are there. But
it emphasizes one thing we don't know. There are so
many variables that the whole goal is to take away
some of the variables. So if you can take away
cannabis use, and especially high potency cannabis use, you take
(24:13):
away one variable that's increasing the risk for your child.
If you can help them with their stress management without
substance use, Where does cannabis bind in the brain. Why
do people feel that they self medicate and that this
drug could help them with their anxiety or whatever. And
they point to like, we have a natural cannabinoid system
(24:35):
in us, and that's true. It's called the endocannabinoid system,
and that endogenous cannabinoid system when our brain is developing
pren italy in early development, it actually helps to wire
the brain. So it plays a very fundamental role. The
endocannabinoid system is part of many biological processes in our
(24:55):
body and in our brain. It is critical for how
the cells can communicate with each other. You don't need
cannabis to actually get your brain to do some of
the things that you think cannabis is doing. You can
naturally find ways of teasing an impacting your own endogenous
cannabinoid system. And that's where I'm horrible at it, but
(25:16):
I'm gonna say, like aspects of meditation, yoga, you know,
things like that. People, it's like, how do you control
your own brain? That's what we need to teach kids,
because that is your endogenous cannabinoid system. When you take cannabis,
you now actually change your endogenous cannabinoid system, because now
(25:37):
it's so overloaded that it now shuts down parts where
it should not be shut down. So people don't understand
that cannabis is changing our own natural of who we are.
And you can do things and tap into your own
you know. And so as I said, I'm horrible meditating.
(26:00):
I'm actually myself a pretty intense person.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
But I'm not a good meditator either.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
But I'm not a you know, I'm anxious when it
comes to like trying to meet all my deadlines and
so on. But I think the things I'm anxious about
are normal, which I have to make kids realize that
sometimes their world, the things that they're dealing with, is normal,
that they're feeling this anxious and it's fine. I think
that we feel that we must nullify everything right, and
(26:29):
it's biology. It's normal, And I think sometimes just to
make kids realize they're normal.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
No, it's so true. The podcast has had a resident
psychiatrist that comes on every once in a while and
talks to us about this, and he always says, stress
is good. I mean, anxiety is good. The problem is
when you can no longer manage it exactly. But anxiety
is motivational. It is not a bad thing, so.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Exactly, and teaching kids earlier you learn how do you
manage stress? How do you manage anxiety that you can control?
You can have control. I think for me the biggest
thing is and from their children. I won't even wait
till kids are you know, teens. It's about empowerment. Having
your kids realize that they actually control their bodies nobody
(27:13):
else should. And when kids have are grown raised in
that way, I think that they can say no more
to things when substances are offered to them, because they're like,
do I do I want this? Not if my friends
want this. You don't have to judge your friends, even
if you know if all your a lot of your
friends are taking drugs, you have to think, is this
(27:35):
the group you really that reflects you? But this is
about you and not other people. And I think this
is a thing today's world because also social media, they
are there's much more this pressure. There's always a pressure
to be part of a group, but today's world there's
much greater pressure than when your parents. You know your audience, we're.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
All on view now and yes, exactly, so I think
that that kind of pressure no generations ever had before.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
And this is the thing of how do we get
kids come back to themselves? And I think that that's
what's missing today.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
So you know, that's a really helpful perspective because parents
coming to this conversation are worried about something very specific
like drug use, But the bigger lesson is helping our
children learn to cope with things that would make them
want to be dependent on something else to make them
feel better. So part of the conversation about drugs is
(28:33):
the acknowledgment that people do go to legal drugs and
I mean, yep, they have a glass of wine. I
mean we see it in the world. You can't pretend
that no one does that, but that there are other ways.
It's not the panacea. That's not the go to for
feeling better, for helping yourself feel better.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Not feeling better long term, because what happens is then
you need that drug, not just that night, the next night,
the next and then it becomes your crutch when and
no matter how you can say, oh, I'm not addict,
I don't need it, you stop start craving. Oh you
were wrong. That tells you that it's not you. It
(29:15):
was the substance, and that's the issue.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Okay, So anti doctor heard, tell, what do you tell
the many young people that come to you and say,
I mean, as I said, the barn doors, open, the
horses out. It's not we cannot what we could say,
avoid all of this. Avoid cannabis at all costs. You
are forbidden, but for your lifetime. Because I mean, truthfully,
(29:39):
let me, before I finished asking me that question, I'll
back up and say that your research has indicated that,
as we've said, different healing properties, mostly CBD, and that frankly,
the young developing brain can have some negative impact of cannabis.
The young developing brain can also have negative impact from alcohol.
I mean there are other things that So what would
(30:00):
you say is if you've got a teen and they say,
I don't care what you say, I'm going to smoke.
At some point, what do you say to your to
the children that come to you and say and they say, okay,
at what age does it make sense for my brain
to try this?
Speaker 2 (30:15):
I always used to tease my little ones as a gull,
and I would say, wait till your brain has reached
full maturity, which really is like your mid twenties, you know,
Because for whatever reason, we still don't understand it. We
do know that there's a difference of vulnerability for substances
in the developing brain versus the adult brain. So that's
one of the things as well. So the later you
(30:37):
can really get into deep experimentation with drugs, the better
for for you. As I said, we don't know why
we're trying to understand the developing brain in this context,
but that is absolutely clear. So you know, I know
a lot of people probably won't want to wait until
they're midwenty five. I'm like, even question more at thirty now,
(30:57):
but I'm like, you know, but I do think that
it's about educating them about alcohol, nicotine, cannabis. The difference
between alcohol and cannabis today comes back to what we
were talking about earlier potency. So one of the things
that we know is that a lot of teens are
starting younger today, but they're starting with high potency TC.
(31:22):
So when you're having a conversation with your kids, they
have to know that they don't know what's in the cannabis.
That to me is a big, big issue. The alcohol actually,
you know, whether you know it's wine or beer or
they may get into the vodka. You actually know. Another
thing that's happening, which I think probably parents may not
(31:44):
realize with cannabis and some other quote unquote even more
not as hard drugs, is that people have now started
to lace cannabis with synthetic opoids like fentanil. What it
does is that it makes kids addicted much quicker, and
so then it gets their clientele up quickly. So the
(32:07):
conversations you have to have is like where did you
get the Where you know when if you're going to
try it, know where it's coming from. Even some of
the people are dealing it don't even probably know that
it's laced with these things. So the adulterance in cannabis today,
So that's one good thing about legalization is that the
(32:28):
dispensaries and the stores that are given the licenses to
provide recreational cannabis, even though sometimes when they have been
tested they're not necessarily accurate to what they say that
should be in their product, they're getting tested more often
so they're getting better at it. But at least it
shouldn't have fentanil, it shouldn't have other adulterance, and that
(32:50):
to me, at least it comes back as I said earlier,
it's about safety. You know, teens are going to be
exposed to a lot today, much more than they or
in the past. They have to be empowered to be
able to be open to asking questions about the people
who when they're given stuff, and these are the things
(33:11):
that they should, you know, really ask about.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Quick question that occurs to me, does it matter edibles
versus smoking or is it?
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yeah, it does, I mean edibles. I mean, ironically more
people go to the emergency room now for cannabis than
they've ever done before. Why because of edibles. Because edibles
take a longer time to kick in. So by the
time people are like, oh, I'm not feeling anything, let
me eat some more, and they start eating more and
then it gets its really toxic bad levels. They start
(33:38):
then really hallucinating, having trips to the point where then
they end up in the emergency room. So the time
course of the high, the time course of how it
hits the body differs between the smoking and the edibles.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
So that's really good information for us to share with
our kids because they may not know that. And you
can actually at the worst case, save yourself a trip
to the hospital. But in an easier hopefully not that
severe case. Know that if you do ingest whatever age
you are, and hopefully you're an older age, if it
(34:16):
doesn't hit immediately, you know why and you're not you're not.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Just do not keep taking exactly, because that's one of
the things that's really really critical. And edibles, I think
that they've gotten a little better now again if you
buy from reputable stores, reputable but you know companies, because
edibles when they made them, it's not evenly distributed. So
(34:44):
the TC in there, and so you could have something
really next to the piece, next to someone's piece that
they consume and you don't have the same No, they
were not uniform oh interesting, and so that was one
of the things that we saw. And and it's not
just because somebody had a genetic risk.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
It's just that if potency was different exactly. But hopefully
that what with legalization and regulation of the various dispensaries,
hopefully exactly that danger has been.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Even for them. Those companies have found ways of In
the beginning, even they did not have uniformity in all
of their edible pieces. But now it's better.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Huh. Well, that's really good to know now, just as
a side note, The problem with that perspective that the
government took is that they delayed for years researching.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Well, you know, so I'm going to say yes and no.
So what people don't understand about research, perhaps is that
most of the research that's done, at least that's funded
by the National Institutes of Health and Age, it's investigator driven.
So most investigators didn't think that cannabis was a problem,
so they would study cocaine, they would study heroin and nicotine.
(35:52):
So that's why we know a lot about nicotine and alcohol.
We didn't study cannabis because they didn't think that it
was an issue. So it's I think people think that
there was a you know, like this collusion to stop research.
There wasn't. It's just that what research people thought to
study for the developing brain was really alcohol and nicotine,
(36:16):
and for adults it was cocaine. And then when heroin
opio had started to come from opioids. And this is
where I do think that the government should play a
bigger role. We shouldn't wait till people are like dying
before we start to investigate.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Well, just this week, the White House has come out
with a declaring because I wanted to talk about fentanyl.
But this combination of fentanyl and xylazine, which is known
as trenk, it's like an animal tranquilize. Yeah, exactly, and
they've declared it an emerging threat in quotes because that
triggers the ability to start spending money on figuring out
(36:55):
more about it.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Exactly. Salazine started off this little thing and now it's
you know, infiltrated practically the whole us. And this adulterant,
this contaminant with the opioids because people get this big high,
but it's a tranquilizer, it's an animal tranquilizer. It produces
a lot of damage in the body. So again, all
(37:17):
of these synthetic adulterants that are in products that many
people don't realize that they're consuming. I think our society
in this, you know, like this moral issue, the stigma
that comes with it and the criminalization of it just
makes this cycle to make it worse, rather than say,
(37:38):
if we recognize that this is a norm in our
society because this is a drug country, how do we
deal with it is a reflection of us as a society,
and we deal with it by trying to think that okay,
if we lock them up, then it's a way, and
it's not because we're not treating those individuals. All we're
doing is locking them up worsening their addiction because they now,
(38:02):
especially when people come out, they overdose, often become they
go back to the same thing, and you know, it's
just this cycle. So for me, if we really want
to help society, we need to be more open about
substance use as we are about you know, every disorder
and treated as such, and that I think would also
(38:23):
help parents and discussions and kids themselves. You know, a
lot of teens don't want to do things. It's the
pressure and so yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Right, right, yeah, I agree that Asa s asked about
how you develop an open communication with your child about drugs,
and it really does speak to what you're saying. We
are a society that uses drugs. I mean, we medicate
with drugs. I mean we even fd provement right absolutely,
(38:52):
and as opposed to there being this camp of people
who have nothing to do with it. In this camp
of people who I'm now saying drugs, any kind of
stimulant of any kind, it's in the world, and so
we have to just say.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
No does not work. It doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
It doesn't work at all. I want to get back
to fenyl, but just a little more because it's become
this big buzzword now, I mean it is can you
it's a synthetic opioid? Me, it's man made? Then?
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, it's like nearly one hundredfold more potent than morphine.
It is extremely potent, and.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
It's killing more people than heroin now correct? Right?
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Right? Yeah, So here's my night take because I'm not
I don't know about fentanyl. Do people take it by
itself or does it only get put into drugs, so,
you know, other drugs.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Yeah, so it's both. So in the beginning when they
started to put fentanyl in, why one, it's cheaper for
them to make and to ship to the US. You remember,
like you know when people to ship heroin, they're big
blocks and so on these as I just said, it's like,
if it's like fifty times more potent than heroin, you
(40:00):
just need a little amount of it. So you could
put it, you could ship it or hide it, I
should say, in a much easier way than you could heroin.
So it came a lot through China, and then China
went through Mexico, and the Mexico and through and people
then started becoming more addicted to it, so that God,
as it said, their clientele increased the lug. You get
more people addicted. Yes, people are dying more, but the
(40:23):
addiction kicks in much faster now when people have gotten addicted.
Now many people are choosing fentanyl. So initially it was
just that they were they were using heroin. Fentanyl happened
to be in there. There are now kits that people
can buy, even for in hospital. There are some harm
(40:43):
reduction sites where they'll test your drug for you to
show whether or not there's any fentanyl in there. But
now there are people so addicted to fentanyl, to that huge,
huge high that they're choosing it, and that is more
dangerous and again obviously that's why there's more deaths and
(41:03):
so correct. So we keep evolving. So you know, we
went from the prescription opioids, then those who got clapped down,
then people switched to a heroine, and then now people
are switching to fentanyl. This is the problem that we have.
Addiction is real. Addiction is deadly because you know, people think, oh,
(41:26):
just stop, just say no, it's not that easy. It
has completely taken over the brain. And even when people
don't want to, they don't want to lose their friends
and families, their homes, right themselves, and even their lives.
It is so powerful and I don't think people understand
(41:46):
the restructuring, physical restructuring of the brain that occurs that
changes that individual.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Well. One of our listeners, gwen A, was noting that
it's a topic high school. It's it's a big topic
around schools, and she's asked about how we talk to
our teens about it, and it sounds like, I mean,
we've given lots of ways to first of all, to
define what it is and then to know that it's
something to be avoided at all costs. So this concept
of narcan, I mean darkan being.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Is then antagonist. So NARCN so your opioid receptors in
your brain, the opioids bind to it, and so NARCN
is the antagonist that kicks them off.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
AH.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
One of the things about fentanyl, it is so potent
that you may need even narkan would quickly like reverses
an overdose from heroin fentanil. You may need even three
times narcan and then fentanyl in the body. It will
get kicked off and it'll come back on. Kicked off,
come back on. That's to tell you again the deadly
(42:51):
nature of fentanyl. So narcn is really important and I
do think that it should be everywhere in our society
today in terms of even schools. But you know, going
back to Gwenna and the questions, I do think waiting
till your teens are teens. It's also I think start
kids about those having open discussions. I think our society
(43:13):
treats drugs and same way. When do you start talking
about sex with your kids? Do you wait until they
are eighteen? No, hopefully you're talking and having discussions about
things before it becomes an issue. And as I said,
you know, for me, why do you need the drug?
I think often it's like kids learn about question themselves
(43:37):
why am I doing this? Why am I going to?
And it doesn't have to be about drugs. If it's
the same questions are asked for other things the same
way that you ask drugs, then the drug thing doesn't
become so stressful to talk to your kids about. And
I think this is the thing we make them into
these big conversations. Have those conversations all the time. The
(44:00):
news is showing you every day have those conversations. Did
you know about this? You know what's fentanil talked? You know?
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Right? Yeah, right, Yeah, I think you're right. We perhaps
the way that some parents feel about talking with their
children about sex, we do. We kind of sort of
get built up for this conversation. And that actually leads
me to another question I want to ask you about,
and that is that so many parents, because of their
own historic drug use, recreational drug use. I mean, assuming
(44:30):
a parent was not addicted, but if parents went through
recreational drug use and stopped at some point or didn't stop,
they feel that they are they're being hypocritical when they
tell their children sort of wait or because they can
remember that when they were fifteen, eighteen, whatever, they didn't wait.
We have to based in great part in what you
(44:52):
said at the onset that it's a different world of
drugs out there. Yeah. So there are a lot of
things to respond. Firstus that it's a different world. This
is not your drugs and these are different drugs. And secondly,
this sort of the admission of drug use is so fraught.
I think parents can get caught up in that part.
(45:13):
I mean, the question is you know when your child
says to you, well, you know, what did you use?
I remember having that moment where it's like do I
what do I say? But but I think a good
answer to that is that's almost relevant. I mean it
doesn't matter. I understand the temptation, but let me tell
you that it's different. I mean it's like, you know,
if I would never advise any child of mine to
(45:35):
drink what was that alcohol? That was just grain great?
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Exactly?
Speaker 1 (45:41):
So any thoughts on how parents should approach this if
in fact they because we're describing we are describing a
world in which some people have had recreational drug use
and may even still have recreational drug use that they manage,
and they manage well, and they're not addicted, and they
treat it. They treat say I'm sticking with marijuana for that.
They treat it like a glass of wine or you know,
(46:02):
periodically and they're fine bits. And so that how a
parent who is sort of in that frame of mind
talk to their child about sort of just not just
say no, but wait a minute or right.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
But you know, the funny thing is, I think those
parents actually have a better chance of connecting with their kids,
the parents who have never used, you know, they may
even have this. Well I never did you know right
that context, And as we said, and you reiterated, this
is a different world back then. You are not going
(46:39):
to die from like being something being laced with fentanyl.
Their risk is much higher today. Yeah, So I think
it's being honest with Yes, I experimented. You know today
I'm more scared. And I think talking to your kids
about the fear, it's not about them. It's not about
(47:00):
the stigma and the so on. It's about your fear
and your love for them. And I think everybody resonates
that I am important that somebody loves me, and that's
my mother, my father, my unt my grandparents, and that
open conversation. You know, I am afraid because of this.
(47:21):
I understand that you want to try it, but really
understand first what you're using, who are you getting it from,
and know that this is a very potent drug. Perhaps
you can use one of the cannabis strains from the
eighties and the nineties, you know, to four presentac there
(47:43):
is nothing wrong with that. You know, can make a
joke of things. How your kids not that it has
to be is how do you have open conversation, so
everybody to know their kids of like, what gives that opportunity.
But it is all about caring. It's not about I
don't want you to do this. And they are. Their
(48:04):
brains are developing in a manner where yes, I'm being
a neuroscientist, now forgive me. You know, their prefrontal cortex
is not yet fully mature, so decision making is complicated
by the fact that other brain structures called the below
the cortex, the subcortical structures that are really craving social
(48:28):
connectivity and acceptance, those are much more prominent. And the
brain areas that are also more sensitive to reward are
also more heightened. So finding things that your teen finds
rewarding can sometimes overcompensate for the drug thing because their
neural circuits about reward is so high. That's why I
(48:51):
said the love this the unconditional thing. It's important for teens.
They may act like, oh yeah, I don't you know
that hug they do. It is when people feel that
they matter. It starts early. Their life is important. That's
what you're as a parent. You know, you want them
(49:12):
to be the best adult and their best self and
drugs can change that trajectory, not forever. Like you said,
there are some parents who had a substance use disorder
when they were younger and were able to control it
and get back their lives, and they can say that
to their kids.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Or they just used it and enjoyed it and they
stop using it exactly. They didn't even it didn't even
graduate to a disorder.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Exactly, but they can say I did that, but today
I would be so scared for my younger self because
of where drugs are today, and they can put it
in that context. I mean, like I said, I think
being honest is better than to say, you know, don't
do drugs. So with that said, I'm going to tell
that my friends all paid when I went to call,
(50:00):
I had never even drank out all so they all joke.
And I always tell that, you know that I became
a neuroscientists who study addiction, they find funny. So they're like, yes,
but and you never have tried anything, you know. So
my friends we said, when I'm eighty, We're all going
to open up the drugs in my safe, you know,
and real CARTI but at least I know those drugs
(50:22):
are pure exactly.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
Well, this has been so so so helpful. I'm just looking.
We had some listener questions and we seem to have
covered them all. Actually, there's one we've talked about the
opening up about drug experimentation, and then how one question
about how we talked with our children about mental health
and drug use. And we've talked about that because if
(50:46):
we can we find that our children are interested because
they make it will feel make them feel better, perhaps
we can explore what it is they are trying to
feel better about.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
And I'm sorry I also say you also know your family.
If your family has a history of certain mental health disorders,
you know that your child might have a risk. Right,
So these are things again early on, how do you
even get a psychologist to help your child? You know,
(51:18):
to make sure that these co occurring disorders are met
earlier than later. And so those are the things I
think as well.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
And the same would be if you have someone in
your family who has a substance exactly issue. There is
a genetic component to that, so.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
You have to also just again open acknowledgment. That's you
know you might have a risk, the same thing we
would say for cancer. That's why I think you know
this whole thing of stigma with addiction. If your family
has a risk for a very breast cancer, so on,
you'll have your daughter start having a mammogram much earlier
than her peers do. Why this is her family risk.
(51:55):
So it's being open about that and certain cancers. You
know you shouldn't do this because you may have a risk.
The same thing you can say to your team so
that they know their family history.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
I'll ask you the listener question. But before I just
wanted to say this. I've said this to you before.
What's so interesting to me is the sort of dueling
circumstances of cannabis being so much now in the forefront,
I mean, legalized in almost every state, and all of
this unknown. But what's so interesting is I have family
(52:30):
member and I have lots of friends who are looking
to get in the cannabis business. And when I knew
I was going to one of my sons is and
I talked to him as I was talking to you,
and I confirm that the companies with the key works
highly highly support this kind of research absolutely because everyone,
I mean, they want to be safe, they want their
(52:51):
consumers to be safe.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
And I'm going to come back to you know, I said,
I mean, most of our research is on CBD for
the medicinal parts. When I look at the cannabis in
terms of mental health risk, I look at development and TC.
We do know, and there's some research being done, and
thank goodness that maybe a little TC might help certain
kids with certain genetic developmental disorders. So TC might indeed
(53:17):
for some individuals be important their for some of the
disorders that they have. And that's why you need research,
and all the companies should be supporting research, because then
we will know what is the ratio of this cannabinoid
versus that, and for which individuals there is no medication
on this planet FD approved or otherwise that will work
(53:39):
perfectly for everyone. I mean, even when I talk about
the diagnosis of cannabis use disorder, most psychiatric diagnoses are
kind of arbitrary, in part because we don't yet have
exact biological markers to say you have this degree of
this disorder this degree. And we know that substance use
(54:00):
disorders they run a range, and we call them mild, modern,
and severe now but the same thing medications will be
for some subgroups of those individuals for this medication may
work for them. Another medication may work for another, and
that's where science and medicine needs to be. And cannabis
may help for this particular disorder, but it might worsen others.
(54:21):
So you have to know what will work for you.
And that's why gasat the companies that are going into
the space. It benefits them that perhaps one of their
products may turn out to be, you know, the next
big thing to help X disorder.
Speaker 1 (54:38):
Right. One final listener question which I thought was interesting
and I'm not sure that you will know this answer,
but I'll ask you because of your work in CBD.
She asked what can safely be taken for extreme chronic pain?
And what I'm interpreting that because people have said that
CBD can help, But is there a danger I guess
of relying on CB. I guess for parents and for
(55:01):
children alike, and children use CBD for chronic pain.
Speaker 2 (55:05):
There's no research on kids for chronic pain, like I
mentioned earlier, CBD for like you know, seizure disorders, More
and more research are being done. The pain studies are
also for the most part done on adults. We don't
know the dose range for CBD, and we don't even
know if CBD by itself will alleviate pain. There may
(55:25):
be again some need for a little TC, but I
will say that I know a eighty something year old
woman chronic pain most of her adult life CBD. She's
skipping around. I'm telling her, she's acting like she's twenty one.
She's still remember she is over eighty, you know, And
other people tried it and it doesn't work. So that's
(55:45):
why I said, you need research to figure out who
benefits and who doesn't. And most of the clinical research
done with CBD is at very high doses versus what
you can buy in your you know, local, you know, boutique.
Ten and twenty milligram CBD is not what's being looked
at clinically. It's more over two hundred milligrams, so, you know,
(56:07):
so things like that, we don't really know yet what
will be the right cutoff and also for which particular pain.
So pain is also this huge umbrella term, so most
likely for more inflammatory type pain. As I said my
older lady, that indicates that a lot of her pain
was inflammatory, and that will be you know, I think
(56:31):
where many people are looking today. So even as we're
doing some pain research, but it's still at research level.
Speaker 1 (56:37):
Right now, Wow, this has been such an informative conversation.
I've loved hearing all this and having this conversation with you.
So I bet I'm going to wrap it up here
and say thank you so much. As just before you go,
I'm going to do ask you to do what I
ask all my guests to do, and it is to
(56:57):
participate in a version of the Lightning Round GCP Groundctoral
Parenting Lightning Round. Just two questions and for our listening audience,
I did not tell her this ahead of times.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
No, you did not, So now I'm feeling like, uh oh,
I'm in school again. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (57:11):
One is do you have a favorite poem or saying?
Did your mom have a favorite poem or saying or
something you remember well?
Speaker 2 (57:19):
Right now remembering one of the things that my mom
to the mom used to say, No good deed goes
unpunished and the path to hell us paind with good intentions,
So you know, I always trying to help people. And
then yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (57:32):
I'd say no GOODI goes unpunished on a regular basis.
Speaker 2 (57:35):
That's so funny.
Speaker 1 (57:36):
Yeah I do. And then finally, do you have any
favorite children's books that you remember from when you were growing.
Speaker 2 (57:42):
Up or well, you know, I grew up in Jamaica
and we used to have a Nancy Stories. Oh Nancy, yeah, yeah,
so you know, so some of those and but one
of my it's it's a children's book, but it's an
adult book as well. The Places You'll Go. Oh yes, yes,
doctor SEUs, doctor Sus, you know, yeah, exactly, doctor Sus.
(58:05):
And I don't know why it has resonated throughout my life,
The Places You'll Go, And I think.
Speaker 1 (58:10):
Yeah, well, that is the magic of children's books. And
that's why I asked, because children's books, no matter how
old we are, it can be inspiring and make us
feel great. Great answers, great information. Thank you, Thank you
so much. I thank you the listeners, thank you, and
thank you to the listeners for sending in questions. But
this has been great.
Speaker 2 (58:29):
Thanks so much, Carol appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (58:31):
I hope everyone listening enjoyed this conversation and that you'll
come back for more. Please rate, review, and subscribe wherever
you listen to podcasts, and tell your friends. For more
parenting info and advice, please check out the ground Control
Parenting blog at groundcontrol parenting dot com. You can also
find us on Instagram and Facebook at Ground Control Parenting
(58:51):
and on LinkedIn under Carol Sutton Lewis. The Ground Control
Parenting with Carol Sutton Lewis podcast is a part of
the Seneca Women Podcast now in partnership with iHeartMedia. Until
the next time, take care and thanks for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.