October 29, 2025 • 32 mins
A single sentence can split a life in two. When Joe got the call confirming squamous cell carcinoma, everything he’d been building—his nonprofit healing garden, a growing podcast, a community of practitioners—had to be measured against one urgent reality: protect energy and choose what truly heals. We open the door to the whole journey, from the first “it’s probably nothing” exam to the blunt specialist, the tough biopsy, and the searing clarity that comes with facing mortality at 58 while planning to live to 120.
What follows is not a rejection of medicine, but a parallel track. Joe schedules oncology visits while activating decades of plant knowledge: cannabis oil, no-sugar nutrition, soursop tea, and other low-risk, high-upside supports. A combo ceremony becomes a turning point, forcing a hard audit of his life and the relationships that drain or restore. The garden he tends becomes a sanctuary for healers who often need healing themselves, as we explore what it means to conserve and circulate energy when you’re fighting for your future.
We go deep into preparation and integration with a Navajo medicine woman and her partner, restoring ceremony to the land: ayahuasca for insight, peyote for prayer, and fire as a teacher that quiets a racing mind. Joe shares the simple rule that guided every decision—help more than harm—and the way better questions drew the right people and tools into reach. Along the way, we talk about agency, humility, and the practical steps anyone can take to set boundaries, seek aligned care, and build a circle that gives back what you give away.
If you’re navigating illness, burnout, or a season of radical change, this conversation offers clear takeaways: protect your energy, choose deliberately, and let science and spirit walk side by side. If this resonates, follow the show, share it with someone who needs strength today, and leave a review to help more listeners find their way here.
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SPEAKER_01 (00:02):
Well, hello, and welcome back to the Healthy
Living Podcast.
I'm your host, Joe Grumbine, andtoday we have back with us a
very special guest, RaviKathuria.
And um, every once in a while aguest comes along where our
conversation just starts goingdeep.
And I'm like, you know what, wegotta just keep this going.
(00:22):
And so last week we weretalking, we finished the
episode, and then we juststarted talking.
And about a half an hour intoit, I'm like, wait a minute, you
know, we gotta we gotta do thislive.
So Ruby, welcome back.
It's so great to have you uhback on the show with us.
SPEAKER_00 (00:41):
Oh, absolutely, Joe.
My my pleasure.
Thank you for uh having me back.
I enjoyed our conversation lasttime, and and especially our our
our conversation post um thepodcast, right?
When we were just talking.
And um I was um I was amazed tohear about your journey of
(01:05):
overcoming cancer.
And I think so many people needto listen to that and benefit
from it.
Uh I would love for you to sharethat journey, what you went
through, how you have managed uhto replace those cancer cells
with healthy cells, make themhealthier back again, right?
(01:28):
And and how have you redirected,retargeted, um you know,
rechanneled uh cancer tobecoming healthy again.
I think that's a beautifulstory.
Uh, it needs to be told, itneeds to be heard, and everybody
who is um you know is dealingwith either cancer or or another
(01:49):
disease, uh needs to bepractical, really.
SPEAKER_01 (01:52):
You know, it it's all the same stuff.
You know, when you get to theworld of the soul, you get to
the world of the spirit, it'sall energy, it's all like
there's things that are helpingyou and things in your way.
And it doesn't really matter.
It could be cancer, it could bean addiction, it could be a bad
(02:13):
habit, it could be a badattitude, it could be a bad
relationship.
It's it's really it's all thesame.
SPEAKER_00 (02:19):
Yes, it really is.
So uh tell us, Joe, tell us,tell us uh from the very
beginning, yeah.
Uh about about what what youknow how you discovered it and
and uh what was your reaction toit?
How did you respond to it?
Sure, sure.
The challenge comes up in yourlife, how do you respond to it?
SPEAKER_01 (02:42):
Well, and this has been a crazy story.
Like, you know, when when I wassharing it with you, I was
really sharing from theperspective of yours and my
journey were not that different.
And that, you know, you came toit from a little easier road
than I did in just simplydiscovering something you
enjoyed and being able to pursuethat.
(03:05):
Mine came at me with a wake-upcall that said, you cannot
ignore me, and uh you havechoices to make.
And and you know, a preface toall this, and I'll probably add
some pieces that we didn't talkabout, is and I think I
mentioned I have a nonprofitwhere we have a two and a half
acre botanical garden here, andwe use it for healing.
(03:28):
And um, my wife and I have beenworking this property for 30
years, and um we started thenonprofit about three years ago,
and about a year and a half intoit, everything's going well.
Like we're we got these programsworking with mental health
patients, special needspatients, healers are coming in,
(03:50):
and we're doing retreats and allthis wonderful stuff.
And the next thing I know, I'mrealizing as I'm going along, I
got this lump on my neck.
And I've always been a guy whoworks on, I mean, I formulate
natural products for a living tohelp people heal.
This is what I do.
So I've worked with plants andnatural healing all my life, and
(04:14):
I've just like the body knowshow to fix itself.
So I just said, you know, I gotsome kind of a stress thing or
uh uh a lymph swollen gland, oryou know, my body will fix it.
Well, going along, it's notgetting fixed.
Finally, you know, I haven'tbeen to a doctor in years, but I
finally like I I gotta get thislooked at, it's not going away.
(04:35):
So I go to this doctor, brandnew, never met him before.
And you know, by that time I'vegot you know, it's prominent.
You can't you can't deny it.
Like everybody, you know a girlwith big breasts, everybody
looks well.
I had the lump on my neck,everybody was looking at my neck
instead of my eyes, and so I waslike, okay, uh, it's time to get
(04:57):
this thing, you know, corrected.
It's becoming a distraction.
So I go to this doctor, and he'slike, Well, you're so healthy,
you know, it can't be cancer.
So he says, It's probably somefatty tissue or something.
And they did a ultrasound andthey determined it wasn't like a
liquid, but it was a solid mass.
(05:18):
That didn't tell him much, butit it rules some things out.
And he said, Well, we should weshould do some further scans,
but I don't want to worry you.
He goes, 'I'm 95% sure it's notcancer.' I can't tell you it's
not, but I'm I'm pretty sureit's not.
So I'm like, okay, whatever,I'll put it on hold.
I'm not a vain person.
And so for me, I'm like, I don'tcare.
(05:40):
You know, you want to look at myneck, look at my neck.
I got work to do.
And so I put it off.
Another nine months goes by, andit's not not going away.
It's getting a little bigger, alittle bigger, a little bigger.
Finally, I'm like, all right, Igotta go back.
He's like, Well, we need to getyou another scan.
So I get another scan, and I Ithey send me the results, and I
(06:01):
look at it and it said, possiblesquamous cell carcinoma.
And I'm like, oh crap, that'scancer.
And I said, Well, if it sayspossible, I gotta go and you
know, we gotta rule that out.
So I go back again, and he says,Again, I'm I'm I can't stress,
you're so healthy.
(06:21):
Like, if this was cancerous, youwould be shriveled up by now.
Like it would be consuming you.
It would, you wouldn't be ableto swallow, you wouldn't be able
to eat, you'd be a fraction ofwhat you were.
And I'm like, all right, but I'mnot gonna quit now.
When they say it might besomething, I'm like, I gotta
rule it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:40):
Yeah, let's investigate.
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
So he goes, Well, you need to go to this ENT
specialist and he'll he'll checkyou out.
So I go over there, and this isuh an Eastern European guy.
I don't know who's from, buthe's you know, they're very
straightforward, you know, uhcultural.
And he was, in my opinion, verydirect, like he had no bedside
(07:03):
manner.
He says, I'm pretty sure this iscancer.
And I'm like, Well, screw you,you know, I don't want to get
like and and and and so now allof a sudden my world's starting
to get, you know, I'm like,whoa, wait a minute, that's a
whole different point of view.
SPEAKER_00 (07:20):
That's right.
All this while I thought it was,and and now it suddenly it's in
my face.
SPEAKER_01 (07:25):
Yeah, yeah.
And he says, the only way we'regonna know for sure is a biopsy.
And I'm like, I don't wantanybody cutting into me, you
know.
So I have all these ideas aboutnatural health, and I hear all
these stories about somebodygets a biopsy, next thing you
know, it spreads.
And I'm like, and I tell theguy, I go, Well, I got you know
intrepidation about this.
(07:46):
I don't really want you cuttinginto me, plus I don't like you,
you know, and so yes, yes, I I II want to like and trust the you
were as direct to him as he wasto you, yeah, yeah.
But I don't have time to go andgo find another doctor, and and
you know, it's not really aboutwho I like, it's about are you
(08:06):
qualified?
And I did some research, andthis guy had had, you know, he
had the experience and it's whathe did for a living.
And so he says, Well, there'sthree kinds of biopsies.
You can get a little punch,needle punch, or you can get a
larger needle punch, or you canget a piece taken out.
(08:26):
He says, if we do a littleneedle punch and we don't get
the right piece, it won't tellus what we need to know, or it
might give us false results.
If we do a larger piece, thesame thing's possible.
If I cut a piece out, we'll besure that we'll be able to
identify this problem andpossibly do future genetic
testing.
I'm like, well, if you're gonnacut me, just cut me.
(08:48):
You know, do the do the onethat'll do the most good, even
if it might do the most harm.
At this point, I'm like, I gottatake some chances here.
I gotta, I gotta have somefaith.
And I've always had a verystrong faith.
And so I've always said, well, Ibelieve I'm here for a purpose.
I know I'm working towards thispurpose, and I don't believe
(09:10):
that I'm gonna just get likethrown to the wolves over
something.
So I says, go ahead.
So I go in there, he gets thething cut out, and and then he
was shocked because I didn'twant any pin medication.
I'm like, no, I'll just sufferthrough this.
I'm not gonna go put drugs in mybody, too, you know.
So a little put off by that.
I'm like, yeah, f you, you know,you don't like me, I don't fuck
(09:32):
you either.
And I don't want you and so thatwas kind of my way to you know
put a little stab back at him.
And and you know, I I'm like,look, if I'm going through this,
I want to feel it.
I want to know what's happening,I want to know my body.
If my body's not telling me thetruth, well, great, you're
gonna, you know, tell me thetruth about the pain.
So I suffered through that, andand um two weeks later, almost
(09:56):
exactly October 4th, 2024, I geta phone call from him, and he
said, Um, your pathology cameback, and you have squamous cell
carcinoma, and I need to referyou to an oncologist.
And that was an experience I'llremember forever, that moment.
(10:17):
Yeah, you know, like in yourlife, you get a handful of
snapshots, and like peopleremember the day when Kennedy
got assassinated, or theyremember 11, or they remember
some big uh you know,life-changing incident.
Like it just like goes andsears, like you get branded
almost.
SPEAKER_00 (10:37):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (10:38):
Well, that one was that for me, and and um, so I
got hit with this.
I go from I'm a healthy guy onmy path, master of my own
destiny, uh to you have cancerand it's gonna kill you if you
don't do something about it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:53):
Right, right.
Sorry, yeah.
Sorry, I apologize for that.
SPEAKER_01 (10:56):
No, no, no, it's okay.
So this is a wake-up call to methat is like uh it took me a
minute.
Like I'm I'm a pretty adjustingguy.
I've been through a lot of mylife and a lot of losses and a
lot of risk taking.
You know, I'm an entrepreneur,but man, this one was like
(11:18):
somebody took a big two by fourand just knocked me out cold,
and I'm yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:24):
What did you feel, Joe?
Did you feel uh uh you alwaysyou know you always you you were
for sure scared, but what didyou feel?
Did you feel a betrayal?
What what was the feeling thatwent through my do you felt that
oh my body I have taken care ofit so well?
I've been in nature, done this.
Why so what is it?
What was your what was it was ashock?
SPEAKER_01 (11:46):
It was really just a shock, like like walking around
the corner and seeing somethingyou've never seen before, and
you're and and and it's it's nota good thing, like it's
unfamiliar territory, but it wasthere fear?
SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
Were you afraid for yourself or afraid of the pain?
What is it?
What is it that was troublingyou?
SPEAKER_01 (12:06):
It was a an immediate reminder of my
mortality that said, Okay, youknow, you go through life like a
kid, like I have this little kidsalad, like I'm just gonna go
forever, and one day I'll die,and whatever, but you don't
think about that, and then allof a sudden it's like, wait a
minute, no, this is for real.
SPEAKER_00 (12:27):
Like now, I'm looking at this, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
I'm seeing like the end of my life.
Like, if if I go and don't dosomething about it, I see a road
that takes me right to the endof my life, and it's not a very
long road, and yeah, and not soJoe, do your listeners know how
old you are?
SPEAKER_00 (12:45):
I'm 50 years old, yeah.
You're 59, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:50):
So I was uh 58 when I got diagnosed, and in my
opinion, I have plans to live120.
SPEAKER_00 (12:56):
So like so you're only midpoint, you're not even
midpoint, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (13:01):
I'm I'm not I'm I'm just coming into midlife right
now, so yes, yes, a lot ofliving to do, and I'm not like
in any way, shape, or formthinking about you know my my
end of life right now.
And you know, I feel like I'mjust coming into my own.
Like some people, some of themasters really came into their
(13:23):
own in their 60s.
That was like the time when theydeveloped their um their
philosophy or theirunderstanding of life, and they
began their work.
And I feel me, that's that'swhere I'm at.
I'm like I spent my whole lifesort of training to learn to do
the things I'm learning to donow, and then now I'm able to
(13:44):
begin teaching.
SPEAKER_00 (13:45):
Now now it's everything has come into focus.
Right.
It has it has converged, and nowyou are you can be the most uh
emphatic, the most create thebiggest impact, right?
SPEAKER_01 (13:58):
Right, I I I and I was right there, like with my
nonprofit, and I was building acommunity.
This podcast was starting to go.
I was already about a year and ahalf into this podcast, so it
was starting to guests werecoming to me instead of me going
out trying to find guests, andand I'm like, uh, I was starting
(14:18):
to attract um medicine peopleand healers to the garden, and
I'm like excited, likeeverything's happening.
I'm working with different plantmedicines and sweat lodge, and
and I'm I I feel like okay, it'sall happening.
Like my life's dream is startingto blossom, and then all of a
sudden, wham.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
Yes, it's it's a party pooper has arrived.
Yeah, well, and and then don'tdon't yeah, don't stop my dance,
yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:47):
Yeah, and and and but I realized very quickly that
I had to change my priorities,and I did a medicine called
combo, and it's uh derived froma frog.
And what you do is, you know,it's an indigenous medicine from
South America, and you sit andyou you meditate and you pray
(15:10):
and you do this little ritual,and then the medicine person um
burns little dots in your armand then puts this medicine in
these little dots, and what itdoes, it's what it's the
weirdest thing in the world, butyou feel it, and it literally
goes through your body and itlike looks for the problem,
(15:32):
whatever the problem is in yourlife, and it goes and it goes
here and here and here.
And I felt it go into my neck,it went into these other places,
and what it does is it makes youpurge and you throw up, and then
all of a sudden you feel hot,you feel cold, it like does all
these things to your senses, andthen you throw up, and then you
(15:53):
integrate it for the nextseveral days, then they take it
off, and then you go back and itcomes back, it doesn't last very
long, maybe a half an hour orso, and then you go back and you
you come back to your regularlife.
But what happened to me?
I became aware of all thesethings in my life that had to
go.
(16:13):
And I had a business that I had,an office, and a warehouse, and
all these employees, and I hadall these relationships that I
made excuses for and spent a lotof time with, and I had all
these things in my life, and allof a sudden in my mind, I'm
like, all this stuff has to go,and they were not co to you,
(16:34):
yeah, yeah.
They didn't serve me, and andnot only did they not serve me,
but I became aware that ifsomething doesn't serve you,
it's taking you so like if youhave a relationship, like you
and I have a relationship now,and and when we talk, I feel
like you're giving me just asmuch energy as I'm giving you,
(16:57):
and so we just share.
It's it's it's I don't walk awaytired, I don't walk away.
And and that's a healthyrelationship, even though we've
only known each other for a fewhours.
SPEAKER_00 (17:09):
That's right.
That's right.
No, how beautiful it is becauseenergy has to flow back and
forth, right?
Yes, there are there are places,there are people and places
where you go, but they drainyour energy, right?
They don't fill you with energy,but energy has to flow back
because you may be an energygiver, but nobody is an infinite
(17:30):
energy giver.
You have to, they need to pickenergy back up in order to be
able to give, right?
It it only gets recycled.
Energy is only going in in fromone place to another, right?
SPEAKER_01 (17:43):
It has to be well, and you know it's interesting
because with the gardens ofhope, I'm working with a number
of different, I don't know, wecan call them healers, medicine
people, shamans, whatever youwant to call them.
Yeah, most of them are veryhumble people, they don't want
to give themselves a title, butthey're just people like you
trying to help.
And and but what they do a lotof times is they give themselves
(18:05):
away too much.
And yes, I watch them after theydo a ceremony, and and then
they're you just tell they'reexhausted.
I'm like, well, come back hereand heal.
SPEAKER_00 (18:14):
So for you need to replenish the healers, need to
replenish themselves.
And this is important.
SPEAKER_01 (18:22):
I recognize that, so I said, Well, my garden is to
help heal the healers so thatthey can continue to heal, you
know.
SPEAKER_00 (18:29):
And um, but meanwhile, in in my mind, I'm
like, how did you find this uhthis drug, this frog drug?
How did you find it?
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
I mean, now you know somebody was um this is a crazy
story, and you know, we're onlygonna probably get through part
of this conversation, we'll justkeep going and the next time
we'll continue it.
But um, I've been trying tobuild a community of healers for
the longest time, and we didthis event um with a uh uh my
(18:59):
next door neighbor in thebusiness, and he um was a guy
who made um the medium that theygrow mushrooms from, and so he
was working with medicine.
I was working with medicine.
I didn't really want to do theevent, but something told me do
the event because it's a lot ofwork to host an event on your
property.
You know, have all these peoplecome in and all it's chaos.
(19:20):
Anyways, we had a little alittle issues with the event in
the beginning, and I said, youknow what, keep going, let's
just do it.
It's gonna bring us what weneed.
And one of the speakers, uh, wehad a number of speakers from
around the world.
People came and givepresentations, and one of the
speakers um came and did alittle podcast interview, and
(19:44):
she was talking about she's aNavajo medicine woman, and she
was talking about preparation umfor medicine and and integration
afterwards.
So it's like, you know, peopledo a lot of you know, ayahuasca
and peyote and all thesedifferent medicines, but they
just go in and do it like a youknow, bull in a china shop, and
(20:06):
they don't think about preparingyour body, preparing your mind,
treating with with uh.
And and when she talked aboutthat, I said, Wow, I like what
you're saying.
I want you to come over and seethe garden.
And uh she had a partner uh whodoes ceremony with her named
(20:27):
Salvador, and they're notromantically involved, they just
work together spiritually.
And I said, you know, come onout, we can record a podcast
episode, share a meal, and youcan at least see the gardens.
I think maybe we could be a goodfit.
So they come right away.
She's like, Okay, I'll clear mymy calendar.
And she is like almost two hoursaway.
(20:48):
It's not like she didn't liveright around the corner.
And about a week later, shecomes out with her partner and
one of the other members of hertribe, and we were planning on
taking a bunch of pictures andrecording a bunch of stuff, and
I was gonna give her a littletour, we're gonna share a meal
and be done with it.
We never took a picture, wenever recorded a word, we just
(21:14):
talked and talked and shared abeautiful meal.
And before I knew it, it wasnine o'clock at night.
And I was like, wow, there'ssomething here.
And shortly after that, um, shecalled me back and she said, I'd
like to do an ayahuasca ceremonyjust for a handful of people and
try the gardens out, and you canwe can just get to know each
(21:37):
other.
And I said, Perfect.
So the next weekend she came outand I was already looking to do
this medicine, and I had anotherpractitioner that was planning
to do it, but we hadn'tscheduled yet.
And I told her about that.
She says, Well, I can serve you,combo.
And I said, Beautiful.
I'd rather you do it since we'regetting to know each other.
(21:58):
So we sat down by the side of mystream and we made a beautiful
little space, a little beach onthe side of my stream, and we
created a sacred place, and wedid it.
And that was our firstinteraction as a healer, um, you
know, and myself, and all threeof them were there, and it was
(22:19):
just beautiful, like they wereso connected to the medicine,
and they cared, like theygenuinely cared about helping
me.
And and you could tell it wasn'tjust you know going through a
mumbo jumbo and saying somewords and throwing some incense.
It was like yeah, you I felt theconnection of their energy.
SPEAKER_00 (22:40):
You felt the energy.
What gave you the confidence tonot try regular medicine,
conventional medicine, or notdepend on it as much?
SPEAKER_01 (22:51):
And initially, I mean, how do you you know you I
began I began the walk, we'remaking appointments.
So when the doctor diagnosed me,I had to start making
appointments with theoncologist.
So I did.
I was going down both roadsparallel, so I had a I it, but
(23:11):
it took me three weeks to get anappointment with the with the
first oncologist, and so Iwasn't gonna wait.
Yeah, so I already worked withcannabis medicine and I make
oil, and I was gonna go, okay,well, I've seen that help a lot
of people's cancer.
I was doing my own research, Iwas already on a no-sugar diet,
(23:32):
and so I knew that that wasgonna be helpful.
Um, I started taking sour saptea.
I started going and using someum natural therapies that seemed
to be pretty commonplace.
A lot of people were talkingabout doing these things, so and
they didn't have a negative sideeffect.
So I said, well, my um scalethat I put everything on is is
(24:00):
it likely to help me and can ithurt me?
And and so if the answer is it'slikely to help me, but it really
can't hurt me, then I'llprobably try it, no matter what,
and give it a shot.
If it is likely to help me, andit probably won't hurt me, but
it might, then I'll be a littlemore cautious, but I'll still
(24:24):
probably try it.
And as the risk starts to gethigher and the reward starts to
get less, I'm gonna be lesslikely to want to try it.
So I'm trying to be practical.
Yes, I'm also I I have anintuition, I have a connection
with spirit, and I believe thatI have answers inside of me that
(24:48):
I can unlock.
And so I try to leave thosedoors open.
Now, mind you, through thistime, my whole life I've tried
to meditate, and I've alwaysstruggled.
I have a very active brain, I'ma Gemini, I'm always got ideas,
and and so I'll sit down, I'lleven go in my sauna and I'll sit
(25:11):
down and I do box breathing, andI'll breathe in, count to four,
hold it, count to four, breatheout, count to four, hold it,
count to four, and do that overand over again.
Or I'll sit with a candle or afire, and for moments, brief
moments, I'll go into abeautiful place and then I'll
get distracted again.
(25:32):
And all my life I've struggledwith this, and I've gone to
church, I've gone to temples,I've gone to the mountains, I've
you know, really like alwaystrying to access that because I
know there's beauty in that, andI've always struggled.
So I said, Well, I startedworking with peyote about eight
(25:53):
years ago, working with a um uhnorthern Cheyenne medicine man,
and that medicine speaks to meum in a good way, and it helps
me with that.
You sit with the fire and youfind your connection to creator
and your own spirit in the fire,and you just spend your time
(26:15):
looking at the fire, and it's II with the medicine, you get a
it kind of I think helps you toopen the doorway in your mind
and your spirit, and it quietsthose little monkeys that want
to talk, and um it helps.
And so I found a connection tothat, but during COVID, I lost
(26:36):
my connection to that.
The the people that were workingwith, they both died.
And um, so I went a couple ofyears and I didn't have access
to this, I didn't know anybody.
Like, you can't put an ad in thenewspaper going looking for a
medicine man to to put up ateepee in my backyard, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (26:54):
It's uh it has to just come.
But your your story is is sofascinating because you have uh
you have recovered from cancerand you have built your own
treatment pack, right?
(27:15):
Which uh which is centered onthings that people are not
familiar with, but people whoare suffering from cancer, uh I
do not know how it will apply tothem, but they need to
investigate, they need to theyneed to understand that nature
is here to help us.
(27:37):
Absolutely.
Nature is here to help us, andwhatever I I say this often is
that whatever problem we find,you know, of course, with our
minds, but even with our bodies,whatever goes wrong, nature has
a solution for it.
Yes, nature has a solution.
You say, Okay, this is wrongwith my body, nature has a
solution.
(27:57):
It's a matter of finding outwhat is that solution and how
effective it is in helping dealwith that.
When you find that, the bodyresponds.
And and your story when youshared it with me, I was I was
struck on how God bless you forbeing so successful in healing
yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (28:17):
Well, I wanna I wanna what I'm trying to do is
is deliver the preface to thisbecause we didn't really talk
about a lot of this stuff, andthen I'm gonna do a little fast
forward and then we'll continuethe conversation the next time
and we'll continue into it.
But through this, this was thebeginning.
And I found out that FlorinaThreehawk, who's the medicine
(28:40):
woman I was telling you about,she also served peyote.
And I says, Wow, we should weshould sit with this.
And so she brought that medicineback to my property.
And the first ceremony we did,it's a prayer.
You pray and you sing and youdrum and you and you sit with
(29:01):
this medicine and the fire, andit's literally you're up all
night and it's intense, it's noteasy.
Um, and sometimes you throw up,sometimes you just you're okay.
But when I did it, my prayer,and and you know, when I say
prayer, it can be an intention,it can be a thought, it, you
know, it it's it's it's it's howit's a thing you're you're
(29:25):
seeking.
And I said, I need to understandthis because I'm still puzzled,
you know.
You tell me cancer, but theneverybody has a different
understanding.
Medicine doesn't even know whatcancer is, and and so I said, I
need to understand my problem.
That was my first prayer, andthen over weeks we did it again,
(29:47):
and I did a total of about sixor seven sessions, and the first
prayer was to seekunderstanding, and then all of a
sudden, that next several weeks,I I was approached by many
people that were like, Oh, I Iheard you have this problem.
Here, I I have some answers.
Here, read this book, here this.
(30:09):
And people were just coming tome from all places.
And I start looking at all thisinformation and I'm like, whoa,
that's it, doesn't all agreewith each other.
And I'm like, okay, I'm getting
Well, hello, and welcome back to the Healthy
Living Podcast.
I'm your host, Joe Grumbine, andtoday we have back with us a
very special guest, RaviKathuria.
And um, every once in a while aguest comes along where our
conversation just starts goingdeep.
And I'm like, you know what, wegotta just keep this going.
(00:22):
And so last week we weretalking, we finished the
episode, and then we juststarted talking.
And about a half an hour intoit, I'm like, wait a minute, you
know, we gotta we gotta do thislive.
So Ruby, welcome back.
It's so great to have you uhback on the show with us.
SPEAKER_00 (00:41):
Oh, absolutely, Joe.
My my pleasure.
Thank you for uh having me back.
I enjoyed our conversation lasttime, and and especially our our
our conversation post um thepodcast, right?
When we were just talking.
And um I was um I was amazed tohear about your journey of
(01:05):
overcoming cancer.
And I think so many people needto listen to that and benefit
from it.
Uh I would love for you to sharethat journey, what you went
through, how you have managed uhto replace those cancer cells
with healthy cells, make themhealthier back again, right?
(01:28):
And and how have you redirected,retargeted, um you know,
rechanneled uh cancer tobecoming healthy again.
I think that's a beautifulstory.
Uh, it needs to be told, itneeds to be heard, and everybody
who is um you know is dealingwith either cancer or or another
(01:49):
disease, uh needs to bepractical, really.
SPEAKER_01 (01:52):
You know, it it's all the same stuff.
You know, when you get to theworld of the soul, you get to
the world of the spirit, it'sall energy, it's all like
there's things that are helpingyou and things in your way.
And it doesn't really matter.
It could be cancer, it could bean addiction, it could be a bad
(02:13):
habit, it could be a badattitude, it could be a bad
relationship.
It's it's really it's all thesame.
SPEAKER_00 (02:19):
Yes, it really is.
So uh tell us, Joe, tell us,tell us uh from the very
beginning, yeah.
Uh about about what what youknow how you discovered it and
and uh what was your reaction toit?
How did you respond to it?
Sure, sure.
The challenge comes up in yourlife, how do you respond to it?
SPEAKER_01 (02:42):
Well, and this has been a crazy story.
Like, you know, when when I wassharing it with you, I was
really sharing from theperspective of yours and my
journey were not that different.
And that, you know, you came toit from a little easier road
than I did in just simplydiscovering something you
enjoyed and being able to pursuethat.
(03:05):
Mine came at me with a wake-upcall that said, you cannot
ignore me, and uh you havechoices to make.
And and you know, a preface toall this, and I'll probably add
some pieces that we didn't talkabout, is and I think I
mentioned I have a nonprofitwhere we have a two and a half
acre botanical garden here, andwe use it for healing.
(03:28):
And um, my wife and I have beenworking this property for 30
years, and um we started thenonprofit about three years ago,
and about a year and a half intoit, everything's going well.
Like we're we got these programsworking with mental health
patients, special needspatients, healers are coming in,
(03:50):
and we're doing retreats and allthis wonderful stuff.
And the next thing I know, I'mrealizing as I'm going along, I
got this lump on my neck.
And I've always been a guy whoworks on, I mean, I formulate
natural products for a living tohelp people heal.
This is what I do.
So I've worked with plants andnatural healing all my life, and
(04:14):
I've just like the body knowshow to fix itself.
So I just said, you know, I gotsome kind of a stress thing or
uh uh a lymph swollen gland, oryou know, my body will fix it.
Well, going along, it's notgetting fixed.
Finally, you know, I haven'tbeen to a doctor in years, but I
finally like I I gotta get thislooked at, it's not going away.
(04:35):
So I go to this doctor, brandnew, never met him before.
And you know, by that time I'vegot you know, it's prominent.
You can't you can't deny it.
Like everybody, you know a girlwith big breasts, everybody
looks well.
I had the lump on my neck,everybody was looking at my neck
instead of my eyes, and so I waslike, okay, uh, it's time to get
(04:57):
this thing, you know, corrected.
It's becoming a distraction.
So I go to this doctor, and he'slike, Well, you're so healthy,
you know, it can't be cancer.
So he says, It's probably somefatty tissue or something.
And they did a ultrasound andthey determined it wasn't like a
liquid, but it was a solid mass.
(05:18):
That didn't tell him much, butit it rules some things out.
And he said, Well, we should weshould do some further scans,
but I don't want to worry you.
He goes, 'I'm 95% sure it's notcancer.' I can't tell you it's
not, but I'm I'm pretty sureit's not.
So I'm like, okay, whatever,I'll put it on hold.
I'm not a vain person.
And so for me, I'm like, I don'tcare.
(05:40):
You know, you want to look at myneck, look at my neck.
I got work to do.
And so I put it off.
Another nine months goes by, andit's not not going away.
It's getting a little bigger, alittle bigger, a little bigger.
Finally, I'm like, all right, Igotta go back.
He's like, Well, we need to getyou another scan.
So I get another scan, and I Ithey send me the results, and I
(06:01):
look at it and it said, possiblesquamous cell carcinoma.
And I'm like, oh crap, that'scancer.
And I said, Well, if it sayspossible, I gotta go and you
know, we gotta rule that out.
So I go back again, and he says,Again, I'm I'm I can't stress,
you're so healthy.
(06:21):
Like, if this was cancerous, youwould be shriveled up by now.
Like it would be consuming you.
It would, you wouldn't be ableto swallow, you wouldn't be able
to eat, you'd be a fraction ofwhat you were.
And I'm like, all right, but I'mnot gonna quit now.
When they say it might besomething, I'm like, I gotta
rule it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:40):
Yeah, let's investigate.
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
So he goes, Well, you need to go to this ENT
specialist and he'll he'll checkyou out.
So I go over there, and this isuh an Eastern European guy.
I don't know who's from, buthe's you know, they're very
straightforward, you know, uhcultural.
And he was, in my opinion, verydirect, like he had no bedside
(07:03):
manner.
He says, I'm pretty sure this iscancer.
And I'm like, Well, screw you,you know, I don't want to get
like and and and and so now allof a sudden my world's starting
to get, you know, I'm like,whoa, wait a minute, that's a
whole different point of view.
SPEAKER_00 (07:20):
That's right.
All this while I thought it was,and and now it suddenly it's in
my face.
SPEAKER_01 (07:25):
Yeah, yeah.
And he says, the only way we'regonna know for sure is a biopsy.
And I'm like, I don't wantanybody cutting into me, you
know.
So I have all these ideas aboutnatural health, and I hear all
these stories about somebodygets a biopsy, next thing you
know, it spreads.
And I'm like, and I tell theguy, I go, Well, I got you know
intrepidation about this.
(07:46):
I don't really want you cuttinginto me, plus I don't like you,
you know, and so yes, yes, I I II want to like and trust the you
were as direct to him as he wasto you, yeah, yeah.
But I don't have time to go andgo find another doctor, and and
you know, it's not really aboutwho I like, it's about are you
(08:06):
qualified?
And I did some research, andthis guy had had, you know, he
had the experience and it's whathe did for a living.
And so he says, Well, there'sthree kinds of biopsies.
You can get a little punch,needle punch, or you can get a
larger needle punch, or you canget a piece taken out.
(08:26):
He says, if we do a littleneedle punch and we don't get
the right piece, it won't tellus what we need to know, or it
might give us false results.
If we do a larger piece, thesame thing's possible.
If I cut a piece out, we'll besure that we'll be able to
identify this problem andpossibly do future genetic
testing.
I'm like, well, if you're gonnacut me, just cut me.
(08:48):
You know, do the do the onethat'll do the most good, even
if it might do the most harm.
At this point, I'm like, I gottatake some chances here.
I gotta, I gotta have somefaith.
And I've always had a verystrong faith.
And so I've always said, well, Ibelieve I'm here for a purpose.
I know I'm working towards thispurpose, and I don't believe
(09:10):
that I'm gonna just get likethrown to the wolves over
something.
So I says, go ahead.
So I go in there, he gets thething cut out, and and then he
was shocked because I didn'twant any pin medication.
I'm like, no, I'll just sufferthrough this.
I'm not gonna go put drugs in mybody, too, you know.
So a little put off by that.
I'm like, yeah, f you, you know,you don't like me, I don't fuck
(09:32):
you either.
And I don't want you and so thatwas kind of my way to you know
put a little stab back at him.
And and you know, I I'm like,look, if I'm going through this,
I want to feel it.
I want to know what's happening,I want to know my body.
If my body's not telling me thetruth, well, great, you're
gonna, you know, tell me thetruth about the pain.
So I suffered through that, andand um two weeks later, almost
(09:56):
exactly October 4th, 2024, I geta phone call from him, and he
said, Um, your pathology cameback, and you have squamous cell
carcinoma, and I need to referyou to an oncologist.
And that was an experience I'llremember forever, that moment.
(10:17):
Yeah, you know, like in yourlife, you get a handful of
snapshots, and like peopleremember the day when Kennedy
got assassinated, or theyremember 11, or they remember
some big uh you know,life-changing incident.
Like it just like goes andsears, like you get branded
almost.
SPEAKER_00 (10:37):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (10:38):
Well, that one was that for me, and and um, so I
got hit with this.
I go from I'm a healthy guy onmy path, master of my own
destiny, uh to you have cancerand it's gonna kill you if you
don't do something about it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:53):
Right, right.
Sorry, yeah.
Sorry, I apologize for that.
SPEAKER_01 (10:56):
No, no, no, it's okay.
So this is a wake-up call to methat is like uh it took me a
minute.
Like I'm I'm a pretty adjustingguy.
I've been through a lot of mylife and a lot of losses and a
lot of risk taking.
You know, I'm an entrepreneur,but man, this one was like
(11:18):
somebody took a big two by fourand just knocked me out cold,
and I'm yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:24):
What did you feel, Joe?
Did you feel uh uh you alwaysyou know you always you you were
for sure scared, but what didyou feel?
Did you feel a betrayal?
What what was the feeling thatwent through my do you felt that
oh my body I have taken care ofit so well?
I've been in nature, done this.
Why so what is it?
What was your what was it was ashock?
SPEAKER_01 (11:46):
It was really just a shock, like like walking around
the corner and seeing somethingyou've never seen before, and
you're and and and it's it's nota good thing, like it's
unfamiliar territory, but it wasthere fear?
SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
Were you afraid for yourself or afraid of the pain?
What is it?
What is it that was troublingyou?
SPEAKER_01 (12:06):
It was a an immediate reminder of my
mortality that said, Okay, youknow, you go through life like a
kid, like I have this little kidsalad, like I'm just gonna go
forever, and one day I'll die,and whatever, but you don't
think about that, and then allof a sudden it's like, wait a
minute, no, this is for real.
SPEAKER_00 (12:27):
Like now, I'm looking at this, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
I'm seeing like the end of my life.
Like, if if I go and don't dosomething about it, I see a road
that takes me right to the endof my life, and it's not a very
long road, and yeah, and not soJoe, do your listeners know how
old you are?
SPEAKER_00 (12:45):
I'm 50 years old, yeah.
You're 59, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:50):
So I was uh 58 when I got diagnosed, and in my
opinion, I have plans to live120.
SPEAKER_00 (12:56):
So like so you're only midpoint, you're not even
midpoint, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (13:01):
I'm I'm not I'm I'm just coming into midlife right
now, so yes, yes, a lot ofliving to do, and I'm not like
in any way, shape, or formthinking about you know my my
end of life right now.
And you know, I feel like I'mjust coming into my own.
Like some people, some of themasters really came into their
(13:23):
own in their 60s.
That was like the time when theydeveloped their um their
philosophy or theirunderstanding of life, and they
began their work.
And I feel me, that's that'swhere I'm at.
I'm like I spent my whole lifesort of training to learn to do
the things I'm learning to donow, and then now I'm able to
(13:44):
begin teaching.
SPEAKER_00 (13:45):
Now now it's everything has come into focus.
Right.
It has it has converged, and nowyou are you can be the most uh
emphatic, the most create thebiggest impact, right?
SPEAKER_01 (13:58):
Right, I I I and I was right there, like with my
nonprofit, and I was building acommunity.
This podcast was starting to go.
I was already about a year and ahalf into this podcast, so it
was starting to guests werecoming to me instead of me going
out trying to find guests, andand I'm like, uh, I was starting
(14:18):
to attract um medicine peopleand healers to the garden, and
I'm like excited, likeeverything's happening.
I'm working with different plantmedicines and sweat lodge, and
and I'm I I feel like okay, it'sall happening.
Like my life's dream is startingto blossom, and then all of a
sudden, wham.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
Yes, it's it's a party pooper has arrived.
Yeah, well, and and then don'tdon't yeah, don't stop my dance,
yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:47):
Yeah, and and and but I realized very quickly that
I had to change my priorities,and I did a medicine called
combo, and it's uh derived froma frog.
And what you do is, you know,it's an indigenous medicine from
South America, and you sit andyou you meditate and you pray
(15:10):
and you do this little ritual,and then the medicine person um
burns little dots in your armand then puts this medicine in
these little dots, and what itdoes, it's what it's the
weirdest thing in the world, butyou feel it, and it literally
goes through your body and itlike looks for the problem,
(15:32):
whatever the problem is in yourlife, and it goes and it goes
here and here and here.
And I felt it go into my neck,it went into these other places,
and what it does is it makes youpurge and you throw up, and then
all of a sudden you feel hot,you feel cold, it like does all
these things to your senses, andthen you throw up, and then you
(15:53):
integrate it for the nextseveral days, then they take it
off, and then you go back and itcomes back, it doesn't last very
long, maybe a half an hour orso, and then you go back and you
you come back to your regularlife.
But what happened to me?
I became aware of all thesethings in my life that had to
go.
(16:13):
And I had a business that I had,an office, and a warehouse, and
all these employees, and I hadall these relationships that I
made excuses for and spent a lotof time with, and I had all
these things in my life, and allof a sudden in my mind, I'm
like, all this stuff has to go,and they were not co to you,
(16:34):
yeah, yeah.
They didn't serve me, and andnot only did they not serve me,
but I became aware that ifsomething doesn't serve you,
it's taking you so like if youhave a relationship, like you
and I have a relationship now,and and when we talk, I feel
like you're giving me just asmuch energy as I'm giving you,
(16:57):
and so we just share.
It's it's it's I don't walk awaytired, I don't walk away.
And and that's a healthyrelationship, even though we've
only known each other for a fewhours.
SPEAKER_00 (17:09):
That's right.
That's right.
No, how beautiful it is becauseenergy has to flow back and
forth, right?
Yes, there are there are places,there are people and places
where you go, but they drainyour energy, right?
They don't fill you with energy,but energy has to flow back
because you may be an energygiver, but nobody is an infinite
(17:30):
energy giver.
You have to, they need to pickenergy back up in order to be
able to give, right?
It it only gets recycled.
Energy is only going in in fromone place to another, right?
SPEAKER_01 (17:43):
It has to be well, and you know it's interesting
because with the gardens ofhope, I'm working with a number
of different, I don't know, wecan call them healers, medicine
people, shamans, whatever youwant to call them.
Yeah, most of them are veryhumble people, they don't want
to give themselves a title, butthey're just people like you
trying to help.
And and but what they do a lotof times is they give themselves
(18:05):
away too much.
And yes, I watch them after theydo a ceremony, and and then
they're you just tell they'reexhausted.
I'm like, well, come back hereand heal.
SPEAKER_00 (18:14):
So for you need to replenish the healers, need to
replenish themselves.
And this is important.
SPEAKER_01 (18:22):
I recognize that, so I said, Well, my garden is to
help heal the healers so thatthey can continue to heal, you
know.
SPEAKER_00 (18:29):
And um, but meanwhile, in in my mind, I'm
like, how did you find this uhthis drug, this frog drug?
How did you find it?
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
I mean, now you know somebody was um this is a crazy
story, and you know, we're onlygonna probably get through part
of this conversation, we'll justkeep going and the next time
we'll continue it.
But um, I've been trying tobuild a community of healers for
the longest time, and we didthis event um with a uh uh my
(18:59):
next door neighbor in thebusiness, and he um was a guy
who made um the medium that theygrow mushrooms from, and so he
was working with medicine.
I was working with medicine.
I didn't really want to do theevent, but something told me do
the event because it's a lot ofwork to host an event on your
property.
You know, have all these peoplecome in and all it's chaos.
(19:20):
Anyways, we had a little alittle issues with the event in
the beginning, and I said, youknow what, keep going, let's
just do it.
It's gonna bring us what weneed.
And one of the speakers, uh, wehad a number of speakers from
around the world.
People came and givepresentations, and one of the
speakers um came and did alittle podcast interview, and
(19:44):
she was talking about she's aNavajo medicine woman, and she
was talking about preparation umfor medicine and and integration
afterwards.
So it's like, you know, peopledo a lot of you know, ayahuasca
and peyote and all thesedifferent medicines, but they
just go in and do it like a youknow, bull in a china shop, and
(20:06):
they don't think about preparingyour body, preparing your mind,
treating with with uh.
And and when she talked aboutthat, I said, Wow, I like what
you're saying.
I want you to come over and seethe garden.
And uh she had a partner uh whodoes ceremony with her named
(20:27):
Salvador, and they're notromantically involved, they just
work together spiritually.
And I said, you know, come onout, we can record a podcast
episode, share a meal, and youcan at least see the gardens.
I think maybe we could be a goodfit.
So they come right away.
She's like, Okay, I'll clear mymy calendar.
And she is like almost two hoursaway.
(20:48):
It's not like she didn't liveright around the corner.
And about a week later, shecomes out with her partner and
one of the other members of hertribe, and we were planning on
taking a bunch of pictures andrecording a bunch of stuff, and
I was gonna give her a littletour, we're gonna share a meal
and be done with it.
We never took a picture, wenever recorded a word, we just
(21:14):
talked and talked and shared abeautiful meal.
And before I knew it, it wasnine o'clock at night.
And I was like, wow, there'ssomething here.
And shortly after that, um, shecalled me back and she said, I'd
like to do an ayahuasca ceremonyjust for a handful of people and
try the gardens out, and you canwe can just get to know each
(21:37):
other.
And I said, Perfect.
So the next weekend she came outand I was already looking to do
this medicine, and I had anotherpractitioner that was planning
to do it, but we hadn'tscheduled yet.
And I told her about that.
She says, Well, I can serve you,combo.
And I said, Beautiful.
I'd rather you do it since we'regetting to know each other.
(21:58):
So we sat down by the side of mystream and we made a beautiful
little space, a little beach onthe side of my stream, and we
created a sacred place, and wedid it.
And that was our firstinteraction as a healer, um, you
know, and myself, and all threeof them were there, and it was
(22:19):
just beautiful, like they wereso connected to the medicine,
and they cared, like theygenuinely cared about helping
me.
And and you could tell it wasn'tjust you know going through a
mumbo jumbo and saying somewords and throwing some incense.
It was like yeah, you I felt theconnection of their energy.
SPEAKER_00 (22:40):
You felt the energy.
What gave you the confidence tonot try regular medicine,
conventional medicine, or notdepend on it as much?
SPEAKER_01 (22:51):
And initially, I mean, how do you you know you I
began I began the walk, we'remaking appointments.
So when the doctor diagnosed me,I had to start making
appointments with theoncologist.
So I did.
I was going down both roadsparallel, so I had a I it, but
(23:11):
it took me three weeks to get anappointment with the with the
first oncologist, and so Iwasn't gonna wait.
Yeah, so I already worked withcannabis medicine and I make
oil, and I was gonna go, okay,well, I've seen that help a lot
of people's cancer.
I was doing my own research, Iwas already on a no-sugar diet,
(23:32):
and so I knew that that wasgonna be helpful.
Um, I started taking sour saptea.
I started going and using someum natural therapies that seemed
to be pretty commonplace.
A lot of people were talkingabout doing these things, so and
they didn't have a negative sideeffect.
So I said, well, my um scalethat I put everything on is is
(24:00):
it likely to help me and can ithurt me?
And and so if the answer is it'slikely to help me, but it really
can't hurt me, then I'llprobably try it, no matter what,
and give it a shot.
If it is likely to help me, andit probably won't hurt me, but
it might, then I'll be a littlemore cautious, but I'll still
(24:24):
probably try it.
And as the risk starts to gethigher and the reward starts to
get less, I'm gonna be lesslikely to want to try it.
So I'm trying to be practical.
Yes, I'm also I I have anintuition, I have a connection
with spirit, and I believe thatI have answers inside of me that
(24:48):
I can unlock.
And so I try to leave thosedoors open.
Now, mind you, through thistime, my whole life I've tried
to meditate, and I've alwaysstruggled.
I have a very active brain, I'ma Gemini, I'm always got ideas,
and and so I'll sit down, I'lleven go in my sauna and I'll sit
(25:11):
down and I do box breathing, andI'll breathe in, count to four,
hold it, count to four, breatheout, count to four, hold it,
count to four, and do that overand over again.
Or I'll sit with a candle or afire, and for moments, brief
moments, I'll go into abeautiful place and then I'll
get distracted again.
(25:32):
And all my life I've struggledwith this, and I've gone to
church, I've gone to temples,I've gone to the mountains, I've
you know, really like alwaystrying to access that because I
know there's beauty in that, andI've always struggled.
So I said, Well, I startedworking with peyote about eight
(25:53):
years ago, working with a um uhnorthern Cheyenne medicine man,
and that medicine speaks to meum in a good way, and it helps
me with that.
You sit with the fire and youfind your connection to creator
and your own spirit in the fire,and you just spend your time
(26:15):
looking at the fire, and it's II with the medicine, you get a
it kind of I think helps you toopen the doorway in your mind
and your spirit, and it quietsthose little monkeys that want
to talk, and um it helps.
And so I found a connection tothat, but during COVID, I lost
(26:36):
my connection to that.
The the people that were workingwith, they both died.
And um, so I went a couple ofyears and I didn't have access
to this, I didn't know anybody.
Like, you can't put an ad in thenewspaper going looking for a
medicine man to to put up ateepee in my backyard, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (26:54):
It's uh it has to just come.
But your your story is is sofascinating because you have uh
you have recovered from cancerand you have built your own
treatment pack, right?
(27:15):
Which uh which is centered onthings that people are not
familiar with, but people whoare suffering from cancer, uh I
do not know how it will apply tothem, but they need to
investigate, they need to theyneed to understand that nature
is here to help us.
(27:37):
Absolutely.
Nature is here to help us, andwhatever I I say this often is
that whatever problem we find,you know, of course, with our
minds, but even with our bodies,whatever goes wrong, nature has
a solution for it.
Yes, nature has a solution.
You say, Okay, this is wrongwith my body, nature has a
solution.
(27:57):
It's a matter of finding outwhat is that solution and how
effective it is in helping dealwith that.
When you find that, the bodyresponds.
And and your story when youshared it with me, I was I was
struck on how God bless you forbeing so successful in healing
yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (28:17):
Well, I wanna I wanna what I'm trying to do is
is deliver the preface to thisbecause we didn't really talk
about a lot of this stuff, andthen I'm gonna do a little fast
forward and then we'll continuethe conversation the next time
and we'll continue into it.
But through this, this was thebeginning.
And I found out that FlorinaThreehawk, who's the medicine
(28:40):
woman I was telling you about,she also served peyote.
And I says, Wow, we should weshould sit with this.
And so she brought that medicineback to my property.
And the first ceremony we did,it's a prayer.
You pray and you sing and youdrum and you and you sit with
(29:01):
this medicine and the fire, andit's literally you're up all
night and it's intense, it's noteasy.
Um, and sometimes you throw up,sometimes you just you're okay.
But when I did it, my prayer,and and you know, when I say
prayer, it can be an intention,it can be a thought, it, you
know, it it's it's it's it's howit's a thing you're you're
(29:25):
seeking.
And I said, I need to understandthis because I'm still puzzled,
you know.
You tell me cancer, but theneverybody has a different
understanding.
Medicine doesn't even know whatcancer is, and and so I said, I
need to understand my problem.
That was my first prayer, andthen over weeks we did it again,
(29:47):
and I did a total of about sixor seven sessions, and the first
prayer was to seekunderstanding, and then all of a
sudden, that next several weeks,I I was approached by many
people that were like, Oh, I Iheard you have this problem.
Here, I I have some answers.
Here, read this book, here this.
(30:09):
And people were just coming tome from all places.
And I start looking at all thisinformation and I'm like, whoa,
that's it, doesn't all agreewith each other.
And I'm like, okay, I'm getting
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