October 18, 2025 • 35 mins
When medicine gets messy—overlapping symptoms, normal labs, no clear path—most systems fall back on short visits and narrow playbooks. We went the other way. With Dr. Michael Scoma, an infectious disease and immunology specialist, we explore how long COVID, post-vaccine syndromes, POTS, mast cell activation, ME/CFS, and chronic tick-borne infections often collide in the same patient, and why solving them demands patience, pattern recognition, and care that doesn’t end at the 15‑minute mark.
Dr. Scoma shares a practical framework for treating complex illness: start with a deep history, map trends over time, test thoughtfully, and iterate based on results—not rigid protocols. We dive into hypotheses around persistent spike or viral fragments in tissues, the limitations of current diagnostics compared with conditions like HIV, and why some of the sickest patients need two-hour intakes, one-hour follow-ups, and access between visits. He explains how telemedicine and concierge-style availability help stabilize bedbound or homebound patients and how “old-school” medicine—listening, observing, adapting—still outperforms a rush to more tests.
We also wade into the nuance around vaccines, schedules, and public trust. Dr. Scoma acknowledges life-saving benefits while highlighting unanswered questions about long-term effects for a subset of patients and the need for better biomarkers, larger trials, and honest risk-benefit conversations. Beyond labels like “integrative,” he argues for whole-person infectious disease care that bridges gut, immune, autonomic, and environmental factors—because complex illness rarely respects specialty lines.
If you’ve been told “your labs are normal” but your life isn’t, this conversation offers clarity, validation, and a working roadmap. Subscribe, share with someone who needs a thoughtful clinician’s perspective, and leave a review to help more listeners find the show.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
Well, hello, and welcome back to the Healthy
Living Podcast.
I'm your host, Joe Grumbine, andtoday we've got a very special
guest.
His name's Dr.
Michael Scoma, and he's aninfectious disease doctor,
distinguishing himself as one ofNew York's most sought-after
practitioners.
After completing his training atthe prestigious Yale-New Haven
(00:23):
Hospital, Dr.
Scoma manages a vibrantinpatient and outpatient
practice dedicated to thediagnosis and treatment of an
extensive array of complex,infectious, and immunologic
conditions.
And that's just the tip of theiceberg.
Dr.
Skoma, welcome to the show.
I really just want to jump intoour conversation.
(00:45):
It sounds like you're dealingwith a lot of things that affect
a lot of people today and maybedon't have clear answers.
(01:06):
That's something that came to merecently with somebody who had
lupus.
SPEAKER_01 (01:20):
Joe, thank you very much for having me.
It's a pleasure to be here.
To your point, there's a lotthat I deal with on a daily
basis as an infectious diseaseimmunology doctor.
And that's what still drives meso much with respect to my
passion towards it, is uh whenyou had mentioned that really is
(01:42):
just the tip of the iceberg.
I deal with a lot of very variedum scenarios and presentations
on a daily basis, both in thehospital, outside the hospital.
Um, you know, infectious diseaseand immunology are very
all-encompassing.
Different organ systems,different types of patients,
(02:03):
immunocompromised patients,post-surgical patients,
neurosurgical, orthosurgical,plastics, cardiothoracic, uh,
all of the medicine specialties,uh, profoundly immunocompromised
patients, as well as what iskind of my biggest passion is
more of the outpatientlandscape, um, which I deal with
(02:26):
a lot of uh they shouldn't beesoteric.
I mean, everybody should knowabout these things, Joe.
But the thing is, is they're notvery well understood and kind
of, I, to my opinion, um havethe validation that they, that
they and the urgency that theyrequire in the conventional
medical setting.
And those are, to your point,what you had mentioned, uh
(02:48):
disease entities like post-COVIDsyndrome, i.e., long COVID,
post-vaccination related issues,uh, myalgic encephalamyelitis,
chronic fatigue syndrome, uh,downstream events due to the
inflammation, such as mast celland autonomic dysfunction, um
the chronic neurologicaltick-borne illnesses and uh uh
(03:10):
parasites are another one thatare certainly not limited to
just endemic areas and things ofthat nature.
They're they're very presenthere.
Uh, and these are things thatcause a tremendous degree of um
not necessarily mortality, butmorbidity and diminished quality
of life in a lot of the peoplethat are afflicted.
(03:31):
Because many of these people inthe outpatient setting, many are
young and otherwise fairlyhealthy.
And they're just struck down bythese horrible, you know,
neuroimmune autonomic processeswith not a lot to go on in terms
of FDA authorized treatments andthe proper uh uh randomized
(03:52):
double-blind placebo-controlledstudies, um, the way uh other
more conventional, quote unquoteconventional aspects of medicine
uh are are equipped to dealwith.
So it's a challenge.
It's a challenge.
SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
You you've taken on this gigantic um problem, which
which is multifaceted and andmulti-pronged, and you almost in
some ways have to step back andlook at it from a big picture to
to see certain patterns, I wouldimagine.
(04:26):
And then in other cases, you gotto jump deep into the middle of
it to you know to to wadethrough the trenches and see
what's really going on.
Um, I know that with Lymedisease, it seems like it's
become uh more prevalent asthese ticks are spreading around
and or maybe it's just beingmore diagnosed, you know.
I think we have a lot ofsymptoms or or conditions that
(04:48):
you've mentioned that you know,it seems like they're increasing
in numbers, but again, were theyjust previously misdiagnosed?
SPEAKER_01 (05:03):
I think it's a couple of different things, Joe.
I think one, um there's Ibelieve since since COVID has
been about, um, I do think thatas pertains to some of these
issues, as pertains to uh uh uhmast cell or chronic fatigue
(05:23):
syndrome, myalgiaencephalamyelitis, um,
recrudescent tick-borneinfections, you know, a lot of
these things end up being uhdownstream byproducts andor
reactivated by COVID.
So, you know, there was a NewYork Times piece that had that
that basically referred to uhthe incidence of what we call
POTS, P O T Shield orthostatictachycardic syndrome.
SPEAKER_00 (05:46):
I recently met a few people suffering with that, and
it's it's extremely common.
SPEAKER_01 (05:51):
If you just talk to anyone, they'll tell they'll
give you the history.
It's not, you don't need a tolltable test in some instances.
It's really just given byhistory.
And all of the incidences ofthese things have, you know,
quintupled in terms of uhincreased incidences.
I I think that it's to somedegree an increased awareness,
better diagnostics, despite themnot being where they need to be.
(06:15):
Um, but at the same time, it'sto your point, um, it's very
nuanced because a lot of thesedisease patterns, a lot of you
do look for patterns.
That is a hallmark of infectiousdisease in general.
You know, you can get somepatient in the hospital that's
been hospitalized for threemonths, and you're asked to
consult on them on hospital daynumber 90.
(06:36):
You know, you're looking at thegeneral pattern of things,
what's going on, uh, what'stheir, you know, what's the,
what's, you know, what's what'sbeen going on and things like
that.
But uh essentially, um uh manyof these outpatient issues that
I deal with, uh, they overlap uha lot.
Uh so that's why it is somewhatum nuanced with respect to uh
(06:59):
differing out what is reallyjust long COVID, what is long
COVID plus reactivated uhBartonella, or um what is how
much is possible mast cellcontributing.
It's very nuanced, but that'swhy when I deal with these
patients in the outpatientsetting, um, you know, I'm very
readily reachable.
I really much run it kind oflike a concierge type practice.
(07:22):
Um because I've I have notjoked, but I have, you know,
said to these patients, youknow, the complexity of these
patients, they really kind of doneed their own personal doctor
because they're so complicatedand it's so nuanced.
And there's nothing FDAapproved.
And, you know, some of thepeople I have, they're more mild
to moderate.
You know, they can function,they can hold down a job, a
(07:45):
career, a family.
They're struggling, but they cando it.
But then there's that otherpretty large amount of people
where, you know, they've seen20, 30 people prior to me.
And when they're coming to me,they are uh bedbound, homebound.
Um, and it's it's devastating.
I mean, it bothers me.
It's absolutely devastating.
And the most concerning aspectis that we don't have the
(08:08):
answers that we truly do need.
You know, we have not defineddiscrete mechanisms, what's the
on-off switch in these patients?
What is the specific definedtreatment for these patients?
Um, and that's what's sodifficult as well.
Um, it entails a lot ofcreativity and a lot of
ingenuity.
And that's what I do pridemyself on, in particular with
(08:32):
respect to the outpatientsetting and dealing with these
patients.
And the, you know, fortunate,I've been fortunate because of
telemedicine and and uh X andwhat have you.
My reach is able to extend farbeyond New York City, where I'm
based.
Um, however, to across thecountry as well as to other
countries.
I treat a lot of patients in theEU, the UK, Saudi Arabia, New
(08:55):
Zealand, Australia, uh,Singapore, they could be reached
anywhere.
So it's it's it's pretty prettyinteresting.
SPEAKER_00 (09:02):
You created a very um effective position because
with your type of practice thethe blood work and the scans and
the you know the diagnostictools are really integral to
your treatment, much more sothan sitting in a room with
(09:22):
them, where in some cases beingin a room with somebody makes
all the difference in the worldand not so much the other way
around.
And I suspect with you know thetechnology we have today, you're
able to start collecting hugeamounts of data from the
different um cases you'reworking with, and and maybe you
(09:42):
know you're in a position to bemaking breakthroughs, I would
imagine.
SPEAKER_01 (09:47):
That's the ultimate hope.
Uh, I have been able to, I mean,with respect to data, there's a
lot of data to analyze.
People come to me, you know,sick for many, many, many years.
They've amassed a tremendousamount of data.
The question is how tosynthesize it and what to do
with it.
Knowing, though, that all thedata that we can have with a lot
(10:10):
of these outpatient conditionsthat I deal with, it's only so
good.
You know, we're not 100% wherewe really need to be.
You know, for example, with longCOVID, for example, we have a
strong hypothesis that is verybiologically plausible that this
is probably due to viralpersistence and persistent spike
that's embedded itself, whetherit's in the central nervous
(10:32):
system or the small bloodvessels, the vascular
endothelium or the gut or whathave you.
Um, however, at the same time,um we um at the end of the day,
we really kind of don't knowfully uh, you know, it we're
we're we really don't have themarkers that we need to have,
(10:54):
the same way we do, for example,such as HIV, where we're not
able to measure viral load,we're not able to measure a re a
reputable um uh spike levelcirculating in the blood, or
we're not able to take tissuesamples and measure the amount
of spike that's in the tissues.
So while there is a lot of data,it's got to be looked at
appropriately and with a with itwith a grain of salt, because at
(11:17):
the end of the day, a lot ofthese things are kind of
clinical based.
Um and in terms of, I mean, I'ma results-driven guy, I'm a
results-driven person for againmany things that in conventional
wisdom is well, there's nothingto do, right?
There's nothing FDA approved,there's no trials, too bad.
Just be in bed for another fiveyears and lose out on the rest
of your life.
(11:37):
I wish you to obviously acceptthat.
Um, so that said, uh it's a lotof clinical sense, a lot of
history taking and seeing whatis the trend in this patient,
what has worked on them in thepast, what is not, what are
their worst symptoms, what uh,you know, things of that nature.
Um so it actually really it'sit's extremely, it's extremely
(11:59):
nuanced and and and um and veryinteresting.
Um, but at the same time, it'salmost a little primitive.
It really takes you back to likeyour medical school days where
you're told to do a full historyin physical, we lose a lot of
that medicine because especiallyin the hospital, number of
patients that you see, thevolume, the metrics.
Now, fortunately, that doesn'tapply to me so much because I'm
(12:21):
a private practitioner.
So I'm not a I'm not asystems-based guy.
Um, I do round at a couple oflarge hospitals, but as an
affiliate, not an employee.
So, with respect to theoutpatient setting, I'm allowed
to be able to spend the amountof time that is required for
these patients because 15minutes is not going to cut it.
It's more like two hours for aninitial consultation, an hour
(12:44):
for follow-ups, uh, beingavailable in between when we run
into any issues.
And that's really how you kindof get to um, I mean, in terms
of the best results possiblewith respect to these types of
patients.
SPEAKER_00 (12:56):
I couldn't agree with you more.
I, you know, in going throughworking with oncologists, and I
finally found one that this guytakes the time and he spends
time with me.
And we've we've we've come upwith solutions that you know the
the the big industry didn't comeup with.
And you know, you mentioned um,you know, FDA-approved
(13:18):
treatments and you know,standard of care and all of
these things that you knowinsurance is gonna cover or not,
um, that hospitals can allow.
Um, do you consider yourself tobe an integrative practitioner?
SPEAKER_01 (13:31):
So integrative is interesting because I I
personally I'm an allopathic MD.
However, the and which is youknow largely prescribing you
know medications, mayberecommending supplements, but I
will say a lot of people thathave seen me, they've been
there, done that in every typeof supplement, every type of
naturopathic or homeopathicregimen.
(13:54):
To me, integrative means whatreally every doctor really
should be.
You need to look at the wholeperson, you need to look at
every system.
Um, I understand that there'sthe allopathic MDs, which these
are the guys that justsynthesize the data and
prescribe, you know.
Um, and then there's theintegrative that does more of
like the self-pay uh exams interms of looking at the uh oat
(14:18):
tests and the gut microbiometests and the mycotoxins and
utilizing different types of umherbals or hyperbarics or ozone
or this or that.
Um, to me, again, these are justthese kind of defined, but I
think probably albeitincorrectly defined niches.
Any really good physician, in myopinion, should be integrative
(14:41):
by way of just how they uhpractice and look towards
things.
And yes, I think one of thefields that lends itself most to
that is infectious disease,because you really are looking
at the whole person, every organsystem, whether it's my septic
patients that are in thehospital, in the ICU, in in
multi-system failure, versus myoutpatients, you know,
(15:05):
20-year-old with long COVID,autonomic dysfunction and mast
cell, who can barely stand forfive minutes a day because of
the severity of the disease.
So I I I draw um, there'sactually a lot of similarities
to it, to be honest with you.
SPEAKER_00 (15:19):
Okay.
All right.
Well, I again I I I'm I deeplyrespect what you're doing
because you're doing things theway that I I wish more
physicians would.
And I I I understand that, youknow, there's the the medical
school and the business part ofit and and the politics and the
insurance and all the it's waymore complicated than people
(15:40):
think, you know, you can grouppeople into groups, but yet I
know some people are willing to,you know, go outside of that and
and do it the way it needs to bedone.
And you know, spending time withpeople, um taking time to to
review the data, to even just totalk to people.
(16:01):
Like if you have a five-minuteconsultation with somebody, you
can only ask them so much.
You only have so much to workfrom.
Uh your snapshot is focused onwhatever.
SPEAKER_01 (16:11):
Very limited, very limited.
SPEAKER_00 (16:13):
You've got a 20-minute or an hour or two
hours, you're able to fill in alot of those little spots and
maybe see a thing that youwouldn't see with that brief
consultation.
You know, the old days, like youtalked about, you know, doctors
used to come to your house,they'd they'd they'd have a meal
with your family, and you know,maybe that's revealing my age a
(16:33):
bit, but you know, it was it wasstill a thing when I was a kid.
And um that's so long in thepast now.
So even finding a doctor thatwill, you know, have a private
practice not bound by the youknow, the the like you say, the
metrics of this whole thing.
You gotta get these amount ofpeople in, you gotta, here's
your caseload today, you gottado it.
(16:55):
And it's up to you.
Well, that's you know,insurmountable for most people.
And you know, doctors are someof the most uh overworked people
in the world.
So I I'm I'm really um impressedwith that.
SPEAKER_01 (17:09):
Um, you know, you know, I I I have done I have
done house call ho house visitsto patients.
You know, if you have a patientwith severe MECFS or long COVID
and it's a it's a it's a youngpatient, and they're that you
know, they are simply not ableto be out to an office set
setting or what have you, or ifthey expend their energy to to
(17:33):
to to too much of a degree, theywill be crashed out for weeks.
I have gone to people'sresidences to do those
consultations.
Again, it's a balance betweenhow much time I have or whatnot,
but have I done it?
Yes.
And when you talk about like itis really what I'm a generally
younger guy, um, you know, I'vegot you know two young kids,
(17:56):
wife, I'm a younger guy as awhole, but in terms of my
approach, it's very old school,much like my father before me,
who did infectious disease.
Um, it's more of an old schoolmentality that especially with
these outpatients that I takecare of, it's really just it's a
therapeutic relationship thatyou're harboring over time.
Because there are things that Icontinue to find out about these
(18:19):
patients, maybe something theyleft out, something that comes
to light from how they'rebehaving upon implementing
treatment.
These are like real-time thingsthat um can only be harbored
with uh a close workingtherapeutic relationship.
But you know, it's very timeconsuming and it's a it's it's
long days than a lot of hours.
(18:40):
And it's not it's not foreveryone.
And to your point about medicalschool and and education, they
don't teach you those types ofthings with respect to um
running a running a business,running a private practice, you
know, having you know, buildingup building a building a niche,
building a patient following,dealing with insurance, dealing
(19:03):
with prior authorizations.
It's a it's it's it's a lot.
Dealing with other familymembers, it's a lot.
SPEAKER_00 (19:09):
I I get it.
My dad was a surgeon, so I I Ilearned a lot about the politics
of hospitals and the the thenightmares of insurance and all
this stuff.
And uh, you know, I um I I Ihave awareness beyond what a lot
of people do without having amedical background.
And and talking about, you know,influences, I think that's
(19:32):
important.
Um I think that people talkabout a lot of things.
There's a lot of information outthere now in ways that there
didn't used to be.
A lot of misinformation on allsides.
And I think that people um aredriven by their feelings and
(19:53):
their proclivities more than umlooking at data and looking at
at evidence-based uh answers.
Um, and they don't do theresearch as much as you know,
they hear a thing from somebodythey believe.
Um, we've got huge swings backand forth.
You know, you've got uhpharmaceutical companies that,
(20:15):
you know, spend huge amounts ofmonies uh influence curriculums
of medical schools, and youknow, they're they're driven by
making money.
I mean, that's their that'stheir business, is to, you know,
they're a business.
Um, granted, they they areresponsible for discovering
medicines that save lives.
(20:36):
And so there's this you knowsort of double-edged sword to
everything.
Then you've got politics, andyou've got, you know, um you got
um presidents and their cabinetsthat are very deeply connected
to healthcare and others thatyou know seem to not be so
interested.
(20:56):
We've got one right now umthat's very deeply um involved.
And you know, what do you thinkabout all of this RFK stuff that
you know, I think he's got somegood ideas and some terrible
ideas all wrapped up into a bowlof soup.
And that's just my thoughts.
What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_01 (21:16):
Uh I think RFK, RFK, I think RFK's uh proclivity uh
towards calling out more orbringing attention to more uh uh
preventative measures, healthierliving, uh dietary issues, um,
environmental exposures, chronicdiseases.
(21:38):
Um I think obviously,specifically somebody who deals
with a lot of these kind of morechronic complex uh issues, um,
uh that is something that Ithink is uh rather refreshing.
You know, I have a lot a lot ofmy patients.
Um, they may be, you know, quitepolitically oriented to either
end of the aisle.
I tend to just wait in thecenter.
(21:59):
Um, but um, you know, many nomatter what their leanings were,
I think everybody the sentimentwas they were very excited about
RFK because particularly in hisSenate confirmation hearing, you
know, he brought about termssuch as chronic Lyme disease and
long COVID and uh, you know,things of that nature that are
not going to typically beuttered by many in the realm of
(22:23):
government because I mean itgets it's bigger than me, but I
just think that on a whole,there may not be a whole ton of
money to kind of be made onthese types of things.
And I think that they kind ofjust go by the waist side.
I mean, why we don't have ahundred clinical trials, you
know, multiple, multiple, youknow, billion-dollar funded
(22:44):
clinical trials on some of theseuh disease processes, where you
look at the metrics of thequality of life and these
processes, such as the MECFS,the myolgic encephalamitis
chronic fatigue syndrome, isranked the highest in the in the
(23:05):
lowest quality of life, evenbeyond that of stage four
cancers.
I have had patients tell me,doctor, I would rather have
stage four pancreatic cancerthan have then be dealt with a
Bell score zero to 10 severeMECFS where I can't move, I
can't speak, I can't have thethe the the shades, the the the
(23:28):
shades open uh because of thelight sensitivity, they can't
eat, they can't, it's very veryvery horrible.
Um, so I think that he does uhshine a light on um a lot of
these processes that do need uhto be brought about.
Um, I think as pertains to uhsome other aspects with respect
to vaccinations and things ofthat nature, um I don't know.
(23:52):
I think that's probably more ofa personalized decision more
than anything else, uh, in my inmy opinion.
And again, I'm dealing with I'mdealing with people who are uh
very concerned about some of thevaccines, particularly the mRNA
vaccines.
Not that the mRNA technology isnew, those have been around for
decades, but um this is adefinitely an evolving thing as
(24:13):
pertains to the mRNA COVIDvaccines because uh we just
don't have long-term data pointson any of these things.
And there was a study that cameout a couple of years ago that
irked a lot of my patients.
It came from Yale, which iswhere I did my fellowship
training.
They do a lot of research therefor long COVID.
Uh, there's some top peoplethere, uh MDs as well as PhDs.
(24:35):
And they did a sampling ofhealthy controls.
So, not people with long COVIDor anything, just healthy
patients that had received anmRNA vaccine.
And they looked at theiraccurate measured blood levels
of spike and they quantified ityear by year by year over four
years.
And the levels, Joe, justincreased and increased and
increased and increased.
That irked a lot of my a lot ofmy patients in particular, being
(24:58):
that we think that possiblyspike protein is the thing that
drives a lot of these illnesses.
This was something that wassupposed to be like every other
virus uh uh respiratory vaccine.
You take it, it wanes after sixmonths, get another one.
This is very, very different.
I've not seen anything like thisin 20 years of practicing.
I never saw anything like COVIDin 20 years of practicing.
(25:19):
When they first came into thehospital, I'd never seen any
sort of a pathogen like this.
Right.
So I'm not surprised that we'regetting all this downstream
sequelae with the vaccines andand post-COVID sequele and
post-vaccine injury.
It doesn't unfortunately doesn'tsurprise me at all.
SPEAKER_00 (25:36):
And I I think a lot of it had to do with, you know,
the the seriousness of thedisease.
So they had to respond with uhfrankly a rushed solution, and
there wasn't the time to get allthat data because there just
wasn't the time.
They had to had to come up withsomething and and yeah, I can't
I can't fault, I can't faultthem.
SPEAKER_01 (25:57):
I mean, when you have a respiratory when it when
you have something that's avirus, you know, we don't have a
great uh r arsenal ofmedications against viruses, the
way we do bacteria or fungi ormycobacterium.
So it's gonna be very unlikelyyou're gonna come out uh in the
setting of a world of a of a ofa once-in-a-lifetime pop, you
(26:19):
know, probable pandemic with aneffective antiviral that's going
to target these things.
It's gonna keep mutating andit's not gonna happen.
So naturally, the the inkling isgonna be towards um, or the
tendency is gonna be towardscoming up with a vaccine.
Um and, you know, they did go uhmore of the mRNA route.
I'm not 100% exactly sure why,but their intention was to
(26:42):
basically target uh what wasthought to be with the limited
research available, but which ishas proved to be correct, the
most virulent aspect of theCOVID virus, which is the spike
protein.
Um, it's just a question of whathave we kind of gotten ourselves
into with giving vaccinations topeople where it has been
responsible for longer-termproduction of the spike protein,
(27:05):
which could be.
I say could be because we don'tknow, of course, no, more than
we know could be could becausing issues.
I say to my patients, I knowenough to know, I know a lot,
but I certainly do not knoweverything.
And that pertains obviously toall of medicine, but
particularly as pertains tothese more uh nuanced uh uh
issues that I deal with in theoutpatient uh setting.
SPEAKER_00 (27:27):
Well, on the topic, I I know we're gonna run short
on time again.
And I as I told you from thebeginning, I I think we we we
have a ability to have severalconversations over this stuff in
the future.
But vaccines in general, youknow, I I grew up in the 60s and
70s, and we had, I don't know, ahalf a dozen vaccines that we
(27:49):
were all finished by the time wewere, I don't know, 10 or 11
years old.
Um, you got your boosters, Ithink, when you were, I don't
know, nine or ten years old, andyou were done.
And that was it.
There was no more vaccines.
Um and then all of a sudden nowyou fast forward to you know 50
years later, and kids aregetting 20, 30 vaccines, and I
(28:13):
know that I'm not in any waysaying vaccines are not
effective because they are.
They've they've they'veeliminated diseases, they've
saved millions of lives, butevery disease is an a lethal
disease, and there are diseasesthat you know historically the
body has you know overcome.
(28:35):
You you get it once, you getthrough it, and you're okay.
Um, what are your thoughts justgenerally about the the trend of
you know, this everybody'sgetting a million vaccines and
boosters are forever?
SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
I mean, it's it's like you said, there's there's
definitely a massive increase inthe vaccination schedule.
Um, I think that it is probablygeared uh more to, you know,
again, more towards uh, youknow, prevention, uh, you know,
uh uh a uh prevention of ofthese uh uh uh you know uh
(29:10):
illnesses which are comingabout.
Um but at the same time, um, youknow, we are seeing at the same
time, you know, increasedincidences of uh autism and
increased, not not not to, youknow, I can't obviously
completely draw a parallel, butwe are seeing increased
incidences of a lot of theseproblems.
And again, uh we don't have a uhI think the amount of data that
(29:33):
we necessarily need um to reallyfully exclude exclude uh such
such relationships.
Um I know, you know, personallyfrom for my children, you know,
I may be a doctor, but I my wifeabsolutely functions as you
know, doctor for the for the forour two kids.
Absolutely.
And and definitely um when wehave gone to our pediatrician,
(29:54):
and for example, my little onewas scheduled to get four in one
session, she's like, there's noway.
Of breaking it up into, youknow, at least a couple of
sessions is just too much.
Um I I do I yeah, I do I dodefinitely see that as a as a
significant trend.
Um I guess the question is iswhere we're gonna go looking
forward in terms of is thissomething that's gonna basically
(30:16):
stay or is this something that'sgonna be scaled back a little
bit?
And I think that's gonna haveultimately probably come from uh
the healthcare agencies andgovernment policies and things
of that nature.
The problem is it's just verynuanced.
I don't think we have the bestuh answers to a lot of these
questions.
SPEAKER_00 (30:32):
Agreed.
Agreed.
Well, uh Dr.
Skoma, this has been a rivetingconversation, and like I said, I
think we just barely touchedbullet points.
I would love to have you backand and go deeper into a number
of these topics.
Um, is there sort of a uh athought that you want to leave
(30:53):
our listeners with um withregards to your work and your
practice?
SPEAKER_01 (30:57):
You know, I am basically uh I mean, I'm
somebody who basically I'm doingwhat I love to be doing.
Um this is something I think weneed to, I think we need to
bring med, I mean, if it'spossible, I think medicine, I
think there's gonna be a tidewhere medicine is gonna go.
Uh the systems are always gonnabe there, but there's gonna be
(31:19):
this drive more from less uhsystem-based medicine to more
uh, I believe, private practice,more individualized,
personalized medicine, uh,because I just believe that the
two are very incomparable interms of the healthcare and the
attention that can be providedto these patients.
(31:41):
So I'm thinking that we may seesome degree of a shift.
And if I could be, for example,an uh you know, an example of
that shift, um, then then so beit.
Um, but uh by all means, I thinkthat um, you know, we need to
look at these things uh very uh,you know, uh uh through uh an
appropriate lens uh uh and andcomprehensive.
(32:04):
And um I'm just very happy to beobviously doing what I'm doing,
and I certainly appreciate uhhaving been uh on your program.
SPEAKER_00 (32:11):
Wonderful.
I I certainly hope you're right.
I I I agree.
I believe that's what that'swhat the community needs, that's
what that's what humanity needsare are private practice doctors
that are able to we just needmore doctors, probably, that are
qualified because that's reallysort of a dynamic of you got all
(32:31):
these people that need treatmentand only so many people that can
offer it and and all of that.
But meanwhile, you're on theright side of things.
How does somebody get a hold ofyou?
How does somebody reach out?
You know, this is you'resomebody that literally anybody
that's listening here um mightbe able to help.
SPEAKER_01 (32:52):
Yeah, so I can um I it can be reached on my website.
It's um Michael R Scoma MD, justlike it's spelled basically.com.
Um, I'm very easily searchableon Google.
I post on X, um, very readilyreachable.
My numbers, uh, office uh officeuh email address are readily
(33:13):
available on the website, uhonline.
Um uh but that would be theeasiest way to reach me in terms
of the website.
It has my office numbersavailable on it.
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
Beautiful.
Well, thank you so much forjoining us today.
And again, I welcome you to comeback.
I've got so much more I'd liketo talk about.
And um just grateful that youcould join us.
SPEAKER_01 (33:32):
Thank you so much.
That'd be great.
Thank you again, Joe.
SPEAKER_00 (33:35):
Beautiful.
This has been another episode ofthe Healthy Living Podcast.
I'm your host, Joe Grumbine, andI want to thank all the
listeners for making the showpossible, and we will see you
next time.
Well, hello, and welcome back to the Healthy
Living Podcast.
I'm your host, Joe Grumbine, andtoday we've got a very special
guest.
His name's Dr.
Michael Scoma, and he's aninfectious disease doctor,
distinguishing himself as one ofNew York's most sought-after
practitioners.
After completing his training atthe prestigious Yale-New Haven
(00:23):
Hospital, Dr.
Scoma manages a vibrantinpatient and outpatient
practice dedicated to thediagnosis and treatment of an
extensive array of complex,infectious, and immunologic
conditions.
And that's just the tip of theiceberg.
Dr.
Skoma, welcome to the show.
I really just want to jump intoour conversation.
(00:45):
It sounds like you're dealingwith a lot of things that affect
a lot of people today and maybedon't have clear answers.
(01:06):
That's something that came to merecently with somebody who had
lupus.
SPEAKER_01 (01:20):
Joe, thank you very much for having me.
It's a pleasure to be here.
To your point, there's a lotthat I deal with on a daily
basis as an infectious diseaseimmunology doctor.
And that's what still drives meso much with respect to my
passion towards it, is uh whenyou had mentioned that really is
(01:42):
just the tip of the iceberg.
I deal with a lot of very variedum scenarios and presentations
on a daily basis, both in thehospital, outside the hospital.
Um, you know, infectious diseaseand immunology are very
all-encompassing.
Different organ systems,different types of patients,
(02:03):
immunocompromised patients,post-surgical patients,
neurosurgical, orthosurgical,plastics, cardiothoracic, uh,
all of the medicine specialties,uh, profoundly immunocompromised
patients, as well as what iskind of my biggest passion is
more of the outpatientlandscape, um, which I deal with
(02:26):
a lot of uh they shouldn't beesoteric.
I mean, everybody should knowabout these things, Joe.
But the thing is, is they're notvery well understood and kind
of, I, to my opinion, um havethe validation that they, that
they and the urgency that theyrequire in the conventional
medical setting.
And those are, to your point,what you had mentioned, uh
(02:48):
disease entities like post-COVIDsyndrome, i.e., long COVID,
post-vaccination related issues,uh, myalgic encephalamyelitis,
chronic fatigue syndrome, uh,downstream events due to the
inflammation, such as mast celland autonomic dysfunction, um
the chronic neurologicaltick-borne illnesses and uh uh
(03:10):
parasites are another one thatare certainly not limited to
just endemic areas and things ofthat nature.
They're they're very presenthere.
Uh, and these are things thatcause a tremendous degree of um
not necessarily mortality, butmorbidity and diminished quality
of life in a lot of the peoplethat are afflicted.
(03:31):
Because many of these people inthe outpatient setting, many are
young and otherwise fairlyhealthy.
And they're just struck down bythese horrible, you know,
neuroimmune autonomic processeswith not a lot to go on in terms
of FDA authorized treatments andthe proper uh uh randomized
(03:52):
double-blind placebo-controlledstudies, um, the way uh other
more conventional, quote unquoteconventional aspects of medicine
uh are are equipped to dealwith.
So it's a challenge.
It's a challenge.
SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
You you've taken on this gigantic um problem, which
which is multifaceted and andmulti-pronged, and you almost in
some ways have to step back andlook at it from a big picture to
to see certain patterns, I wouldimagine.
(04:26):
And then in other cases, you gotto jump deep into the middle of
it to you know to to wadethrough the trenches and see
what's really going on.
Um, I know that with Lymedisease, it seems like it's
become uh more prevalent asthese ticks are spreading around
and or maybe it's just beingmore diagnosed, you know.
I think we have a lot ofsymptoms or or conditions that
(04:48):
you've mentioned that you know,it seems like they're increasing
in numbers, but again, were theyjust previously misdiagnosed?
SPEAKER_01 (05:03):
I think it's a couple of different things, Joe.
I think one, um there's Ibelieve since since COVID has
been about, um, I do think thatas pertains to some of these
issues, as pertains to uh uh uhmast cell or chronic fatigue
(05:23):
syndrome, myalgiaencephalamyelitis, um,
recrudescent tick-borneinfections, you know, a lot of
these things end up being uhdownstream byproducts andor
reactivated by COVID.
So, you know, there was a NewYork Times piece that had that
that basically referred to uhthe incidence of what we call
POTS, P O T Shield orthostatictachycardic syndrome.
SPEAKER_00 (05:46):
I recently met a few people suffering with that, and
it's it's extremely common.
SPEAKER_01 (05:51):
If you just talk to anyone, they'll tell they'll
give you the history.
It's not, you don't need a tolltable test in some instances.
It's really just given byhistory.
And all of the incidences ofthese things have, you know,
quintupled in terms of uhincreased incidences.
I I think that it's to somedegree an increased awareness,
better diagnostics, despite themnot being where they need to be.
(06:15):
Um, but at the same time, it'sto your point, um, it's very
nuanced because a lot of thesedisease patterns, a lot of you
do look for patterns.
That is a hallmark of infectiousdisease in general.
You know, you can get somepatient in the hospital that's
been hospitalized for threemonths, and you're asked to
consult on them on hospital daynumber 90.
(06:36):
You know, you're looking at thegeneral pattern of things,
what's going on, uh, what'stheir, you know, what's the,
what's, you know, what's what'sbeen going on and things like
that.
But uh essentially, um uh manyof these outpatient issues that
I deal with, uh, they overlap uha lot.
Uh so that's why it is somewhatum nuanced with respect to uh
(06:59):
differing out what is reallyjust long COVID, what is long
COVID plus reactivated uhBartonella, or um what is how
much is possible mast cellcontributing.
It's very nuanced, but that'swhy when I deal with these
patients in the outpatientsetting, um, you know, I'm very
readily reachable.
I really much run it kind oflike a concierge type practice.
(07:22):
Um because I've I have notjoked, but I have, you know,
said to these patients, youknow, the complexity of these
patients, they really kind of doneed their own personal doctor
because they're so complicatedand it's so nuanced.
And there's nothing FDAapproved.
And, you know, some of thepeople I have, they're more mild
to moderate.
You know, they can function,they can hold down a job, a
(07:45):
career, a family.
They're struggling, but they cando it.
But then there's that otherpretty large amount of people
where, you know, they've seen20, 30 people prior to me.
And when they're coming to me,they are uh bedbound, homebound.
Um, and it's it's devastating.
I mean, it bothers me.
It's absolutely devastating.
And the most concerning aspectis that we don't have the
(08:08):
answers that we truly do need.
You know, we have not defineddiscrete mechanisms, what's the
on-off switch in these patients?
What is the specific definedtreatment for these patients?
Um, and that's what's sodifficult as well.
Um, it entails a lot ofcreativity and a lot of
ingenuity.
And that's what I do pridemyself on, in particular with
(08:32):
respect to the outpatientsetting and dealing with these
patients.
And the, you know, fortunate,I've been fortunate because of
telemedicine and and uh X andwhat have you.
My reach is able to extend farbeyond New York City, where I'm
based.
Um, however, to across thecountry as well as to other
countries.
I treat a lot of patients in theEU, the UK, Saudi Arabia, New
(08:55):
Zealand, Australia, uh,Singapore, they could be reached
anywhere.
So it's it's it's pretty prettyinteresting.
SPEAKER_00 (09:02):
You created a very um effective position because
with your type of practice thethe blood work and the scans and
the you know the diagnostictools are really integral to
your treatment, much more sothan sitting in a room with
(09:22):
them, where in some cases beingin a room with somebody makes
all the difference in the worldand not so much the other way
around.
And I suspect with you know thetechnology we have today, you're
able to start collecting hugeamounts of data from the
different um cases you'reworking with, and and maybe you
(09:42):
know you're in a position to bemaking breakthroughs, I would
imagine.
SPEAKER_01 (09:47):
That's the ultimate hope.
Uh, I have been able to, I mean,with respect to data, there's a
lot of data to analyze.
People come to me, you know,sick for many, many, many years.
They've amassed a tremendousamount of data.
The question is how tosynthesize it and what to do
with it.
Knowing, though, that all thedata that we can have with a lot
(10:10):
of these outpatient conditionsthat I deal with, it's only so
good.
You know, we're not 100% wherewe really need to be.
You know, for example, with longCOVID, for example, we have a
strong hypothesis that is verybiologically plausible that this
is probably due to viralpersistence and persistent spike
that's embedded itself, whetherit's in the central nervous
(10:32):
system or the small bloodvessels, the vascular
endothelium or the gut or whathave you.
Um, however, at the same time,um we um at the end of the day,
we really kind of don't knowfully uh, you know, it we're
we're we really don't have themarkers that we need to have,
(10:54):
the same way we do, for example,such as HIV, where we're not
able to measure viral load,we're not able to measure a re a
reputable um uh spike levelcirculating in the blood, or
we're not able to take tissuesamples and measure the amount
of spike that's in the tissues.
So while there is a lot of data,it's got to be looked at
appropriately and with a with itwith a grain of salt, because at
(11:17):
the end of the day, a lot ofthese things are kind of
clinical based.
Um and in terms of, I mean, I'ma results-driven guy, I'm a
results-driven person for againmany things that in conventional
wisdom is well, there's nothingto do, right?
There's nothing FDA approved,there's no trials, too bad.
Just be in bed for another fiveyears and lose out on the rest
of your life.
(11:37):
I wish you to obviously acceptthat.
Um, so that said, uh it's a lotof clinical sense, a lot of
history taking and seeing whatis the trend in this patient,
what has worked on them in thepast, what is not, what are
their worst symptoms, what uh,you know, things of that nature.
Um so it actually really it'sit's extremely, it's extremely
(11:59):
nuanced and and and um and veryinteresting.
Um, but at the same time, it'salmost a little primitive.
It really takes you back to likeyour medical school days where
you're told to do a full historyin physical, we lose a lot of
that medicine because especiallyin the hospital, number of
patients that you see, thevolume, the metrics.
Now, fortunately, that doesn'tapply to me so much because I'm
(12:21):
a private practitioner.
So I'm not a I'm not asystems-based guy.
Um, I do round at a couple oflarge hospitals, but as an
affiliate, not an employee.
So, with respect to theoutpatient setting, I'm allowed
to be able to spend the amountof time that is required for
these patients because 15minutes is not going to cut it.
It's more like two hours for aninitial consultation, an hour
(12:44):
for follow-ups, uh, beingavailable in between when we run
into any issues.
And that's really how you kindof get to um, I mean, in terms
of the best results possiblewith respect to these types of
patients.
SPEAKER_00 (12:56):
I couldn't agree with you more.
I, you know, in going throughworking with oncologists, and I
finally found one that this guytakes the time and he spends
time with me.
And we've we've we've come upwith solutions that you know the
the the big industry didn't comeup with.
And you know, you mentioned um,you know, FDA-approved
(13:18):
treatments and you know,standard of care and all of
these things that you knowinsurance is gonna cover or not,
um, that hospitals can allow.
Um, do you consider yourself tobe an integrative practitioner?
SPEAKER_01 (13:31):
So integrative is interesting because I I
personally I'm an allopathic MD.
However, the and which is youknow largely prescribing you
know medications, mayberecommending supplements, but I
will say a lot of people thathave seen me, they've been
there, done that in every typeof supplement, every type of
naturopathic or homeopathicregimen.
(13:54):
To me, integrative means whatreally every doctor really
should be.
You need to look at the wholeperson, you need to look at
every system.
Um, I understand that there'sthe allopathic MDs, which these
are the guys that justsynthesize the data and
prescribe, you know.
Um, and then there's theintegrative that does more of
like the self-pay uh exams interms of looking at the uh oat
(14:18):
tests and the gut microbiometests and the mycotoxins and
utilizing different types of umherbals or hyperbarics or ozone
or this or that.
Um, to me, again, these are justthese kind of defined, but I
think probably albeitincorrectly defined niches.
Any really good physician, in myopinion, should be integrative
(14:41):
by way of just how they uhpractice and look towards
things.
And yes, I think one of thefields that lends itself most to
that is infectious disease,because you really are looking
at the whole person, every organsystem, whether it's my septic
patients that are in thehospital, in the ICU, in in
multi-system failure, versus myoutpatients, you know,
(15:05):
20-year-old with long COVID,autonomic dysfunction and mast
cell, who can barely stand forfive minutes a day because of
the severity of the disease.
So I I I draw um, there'sactually a lot of similarities
to it, to be honest with you.
SPEAKER_00 (15:19):
Okay.
All right.
Well, I again I I I'm I deeplyrespect what you're doing
because you're doing things theway that I I wish more
physicians would.
And I I I understand that, youknow, there's the the medical
school and the business part ofit and and the politics and the
insurance and all the it's waymore complicated than people
(15:40):
think, you know, you can grouppeople into groups, but yet I
know some people are willing to,you know, go outside of that and
and do it the way it needs to bedone.
And you know, spending time withpeople, um taking time to to
review the data, to even just totalk to people.
(16:01):
Like if you have a five-minuteconsultation with somebody, you
can only ask them so much.
You only have so much to workfrom.
Uh your snapshot is focused onwhatever.
SPEAKER_01 (16:11):
Very limited, very limited.
SPEAKER_00 (16:13):
You've got a 20-minute or an hour or two
hours, you're able to fill in alot of those little spots and
maybe see a thing that youwouldn't see with that brief
consultation.
You know, the old days, like youtalked about, you know, doctors
used to come to your house,they'd they'd they'd have a meal
with your family, and you know,maybe that's revealing my age a
(16:33):
bit, but you know, it was it wasstill a thing when I was a kid.
And um that's so long in thepast now.
So even finding a doctor thatwill, you know, have a private
practice not bound by the youknow, the the like you say, the
metrics of this whole thing.
You gotta get these amount ofpeople in, you gotta, here's
your caseload today, you gottado it.
(16:55):
And it's up to you.
Well, that's you know,insurmountable for most people.
And you know, doctors are someof the most uh overworked people
in the world.
So I I'm I'm really um impressedwith that.
SPEAKER_01 (17:09):
Um, you know, you know, I I I have done I have
done house call ho house visitsto patients.
You know, if you have a patientwith severe MECFS or long COVID
and it's a it's a it's a youngpatient, and they're that you
know, they are simply not ableto be out to an office set
setting or what have you, or ifthey expend their energy to to
(17:33):
to to too much of a degree, theywill be crashed out for weeks.
I have gone to people'sresidences to do those
consultations.
Again, it's a balance betweenhow much time I have or whatnot,
but have I done it?
Yes.
And when you talk about like itis really what I'm a generally
younger guy, um, you know, I'vegot you know two young kids,
(17:56):
wife, I'm a younger guy as awhole, but in terms of my
approach, it's very old school,much like my father before me,
who did infectious disease.
Um, it's more of an old schoolmentality that especially with
these outpatients that I takecare of, it's really just it's a
therapeutic relationship thatyou're harboring over time.
Because there are things that Icontinue to find out about these
(18:19):
patients, maybe something theyleft out, something that comes
to light from how they'rebehaving upon implementing
treatment.
These are like real-time thingsthat um can only be harbored
with uh a close workingtherapeutic relationship.
But you know, it's very timeconsuming and it's a it's it's
long days than a lot of hours.
(18:40):
And it's not it's not foreveryone.
And to your point about medicalschool and and education, they
don't teach you those types ofthings with respect to um
running a running a business,running a private practice, you
know, having you know, buildingup building a building a niche,
building a patient following,dealing with insurance, dealing
(19:03):
with prior authorizations.
It's a it's it's it's a lot.
Dealing with other familymembers, it's a lot.
SPEAKER_00 (19:09):
I I get it.
My dad was a surgeon, so I I Ilearned a lot about the politics
of hospitals and the the thenightmares of insurance and all
this stuff.
And uh, you know, I um I I Ihave awareness beyond what a lot
of people do without having amedical background.
And and talking about, you know,influences, I think that's
(19:32):
important.
Um I think that people talkabout a lot of things.
There's a lot of information outthere now in ways that there
didn't used to be.
A lot of misinformation on allsides.
And I think that people um aredriven by their feelings and
(19:53):
their proclivities more than umlooking at data and looking at
at evidence-based uh answers.
Um, and they don't do theresearch as much as you know,
they hear a thing from somebodythey believe.
Um, we've got huge swings backand forth.
You know, you've got uhpharmaceutical companies that,
(20:15):
you know, spend huge amounts ofmonies uh influence curriculums
of medical schools, and youknow, they're they're driven by
making money.
I mean, that's their that'stheir business, is to, you know,
they're a business.
Um, granted, they they areresponsible for discovering
medicines that save lives.
(20:36):
And so there's this you knowsort of double-edged sword to
everything.
Then you've got politics, andyou've got, you know, um you got
um presidents and their cabinetsthat are very deeply connected
to healthcare and others thatyou know seem to not be so
interested.
(20:56):
We've got one right now umthat's very deeply um involved.
And you know, what do you thinkabout all of this RFK stuff that
you know, I think he's got somegood ideas and some terrible
ideas all wrapped up into a bowlof soup.
And that's just my thoughts.
What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_01 (21:16):
Uh I think RFK, RFK, I think RFK's uh proclivity uh
towards calling out more orbringing attention to more uh uh
preventative measures, healthierliving, uh dietary issues, um,
environmental exposures, chronicdiseases.
(21:38):
Um I think obviously,specifically somebody who deals
with a lot of these kind of morechronic complex uh issues, um,
uh that is something that Ithink is uh rather refreshing.
You know, I have a lot a lot ofmy patients.
Um, they may be, you know, quitepolitically oriented to either
end of the aisle.
I tend to just wait in thecenter.
(21:59):
Um, but um, you know, many nomatter what their leanings were,
I think everybody the sentimentwas they were very excited about
RFK because particularly in hisSenate confirmation hearing, you
know, he brought about termssuch as chronic Lyme disease and
long COVID and uh, you know,things of that nature that are
not going to typically beuttered by many in the realm of
(22:23):
government because I mean itgets it's bigger than me, but I
just think that on a whole,there may not be a whole ton of
money to kind of be made onthese types of things.
And I think that they kind ofjust go by the waist side.
I mean, why we don't have ahundred clinical trials, you
know, multiple, multiple, youknow, billion-dollar funded
(22:44):
clinical trials on some of theseuh disease processes, where you
look at the metrics of thequality of life and these
processes, such as the MECFS,the myolgic encephalamitis
chronic fatigue syndrome, isranked the highest in the in the
(23:05):
lowest quality of life, evenbeyond that of stage four
cancers.
I have had patients tell me,doctor, I would rather have
stage four pancreatic cancerthan have then be dealt with a
Bell score zero to 10 severeMECFS where I can't move, I
can't speak, I can't have thethe the the shades, the the the
(23:28):
shades open uh because of thelight sensitivity, they can't
eat, they can't, it's very veryvery horrible.
Um, so I think that he does uhshine a light on um a lot of
these processes that do need uhto be brought about.
Um, I think as pertains to uhsome other aspects with respect
to vaccinations and things ofthat nature, um I don't know.
(23:52):
I think that's probably more ofa personalized decision more
than anything else, uh, in my inmy opinion.
And again, I'm dealing with I'mdealing with people who are uh
very concerned about some of thevaccines, particularly the mRNA
vaccines.
Not that the mRNA technology isnew, those have been around for
decades, but um this is adefinitely an evolving thing as
(24:13):
pertains to the mRNA COVIDvaccines because uh we just
don't have long-term data pointson any of these things.
And there was a study that cameout a couple of years ago that
irked a lot of my patients.
It came from Yale, which iswhere I did my fellowship
training.
They do a lot of research therefor long COVID.
Uh, there's some top peoplethere, uh MDs as well as PhDs.
(24:35):
And they did a sampling ofhealthy controls.
So, not people with long COVIDor anything, just healthy
patients that had received anmRNA vaccine.
And they looked at theiraccurate measured blood levels
of spike and they quantified ityear by year by year over four
years.
And the levels, Joe, justincreased and increased and
increased and increased.
That irked a lot of my a lot ofmy patients in particular, being
(24:58):
that we think that possiblyspike protein is the thing that
drives a lot of these illnesses.
This was something that wassupposed to be like every other
virus uh uh respiratory vaccine.
You take it, it wanes after sixmonths, get another one.
This is very, very different.
I've not seen anything like thisin 20 years of practicing.
I never saw anything like COVIDin 20 years of practicing.
(25:19):
When they first came into thehospital, I'd never seen any
sort of a pathogen like this.
Right.
So I'm not surprised that we'regetting all this downstream
sequelae with the vaccines andand post-COVID sequele and
post-vaccine injury.
It doesn't unfortunately doesn'tsurprise me at all.
SPEAKER_00 (25:36):
And I I think a lot of it had to do with, you know,
the the seriousness of thedisease.
So they had to respond with uhfrankly a rushed solution, and
there wasn't the time to get allthat data because there just
wasn't the time.
They had to had to come up withsomething and and yeah, I can't
I can't fault, I can't faultthem.
SPEAKER_01 (25:57):
I mean, when you have a respiratory when it when
you have something that's avirus, you know, we don't have a
great uh r arsenal ofmedications against viruses, the
way we do bacteria or fungi ormycobacterium.
So it's gonna be very unlikelyyou're gonna come out uh in the
setting of a world of a of a ofa once-in-a-lifetime pop, you
(26:19):
know, probable pandemic with aneffective antiviral that's going
to target these things.
It's gonna keep mutating andit's not gonna happen.
So naturally, the the inkling isgonna be towards um, or the
tendency is gonna be towardscoming up with a vaccine.
Um and, you know, they did go uhmore of the mRNA route.
I'm not 100% exactly sure why,but their intention was to
(26:42):
basically target uh what wasthought to be with the limited
research available, but which ishas proved to be correct, the
most virulent aspect of theCOVID virus, which is the spike
protein.
Um, it's just a question of whathave we kind of gotten ourselves
into with giving vaccinations topeople where it has been
responsible for longer-termproduction of the spike protein,
(27:05):
which could be.
I say could be because we don'tknow, of course, no, more than
we know could be could becausing issues.
I say to my patients, I knowenough to know, I know a lot,
but I certainly do not knoweverything.
And that pertains obviously toall of medicine, but
particularly as pertains tothese more uh nuanced uh uh
issues that I deal with in theoutpatient uh setting.
SPEAKER_00 (27:27):
Well, on the topic, I I know we're gonna run short
on time again.
And I as I told you from thebeginning, I I think we we we
have a ability to have severalconversations over this stuff in
the future.
But vaccines in general, youknow, I I grew up in the 60s and
70s, and we had, I don't know, ahalf a dozen vaccines that we
(27:49):
were all finished by the time wewere, I don't know, 10 or 11
years old.
Um, you got your boosters, Ithink, when you were, I don't
know, nine or ten years old, andyou were done.
And that was it.
There was no more vaccines.
Um and then all of a sudden nowyou fast forward to you know 50
years later, and kids aregetting 20, 30 vaccines, and I
(28:13):
know that I'm not in any waysaying vaccines are not
effective because they are.
They've they've they'veeliminated diseases, they've
saved millions of lives, butevery disease is an a lethal
disease, and there are diseasesthat you know historically the
body has you know overcome.
(28:35):
You you get it once, you getthrough it, and you're okay.
Um, what are your thoughts justgenerally about the the trend of
you know, this everybody'sgetting a million vaccines and
boosters are forever?
SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
I mean, it's it's like you said, there's there's
definitely a massive increase inthe vaccination schedule.
Um, I think that it is probablygeared uh more to, you know,
again, more towards uh, youknow, prevention, uh, you know,
uh uh a uh prevention of ofthese uh uh uh you know uh
(29:10):
illnesses which are comingabout.
Um but at the same time, um, youknow, we are seeing at the same
time, you know, increasedincidences of uh autism and
increased, not not not to, youknow, I can't obviously
completely draw a parallel, butwe are seeing increased
incidences of a lot of theseproblems.
And again, uh we don't have a uhI think the amount of data that
(29:33):
we necessarily need um to reallyfully exclude exclude uh such
such relationships.
Um I know, you know, personallyfrom for my children, you know,
I may be a doctor, but I my wifeabsolutely functions as you
know, doctor for the for the forour two kids.
Absolutely.
And and definitely um when wehave gone to our pediatrician,
(29:54):
and for example, my little onewas scheduled to get four in one
session, she's like, there's noway.
Of breaking it up into, youknow, at least a couple of
sessions is just too much.
Um I I do I yeah, I do I dodefinitely see that as a as a
significant trend.
Um I guess the question is iswhere we're gonna go looking
forward in terms of is thissomething that's gonna basically
(30:16):
stay or is this something that'sgonna be scaled back a little
bit?
And I think that's gonna haveultimately probably come from uh
the healthcare agencies andgovernment policies and things
of that nature.
The problem is it's just verynuanced.
I don't think we have the bestuh answers to a lot of these
questions.
SPEAKER_00 (30:32):
Agreed.
Agreed.
Well, uh Dr.
Skoma, this has been a rivetingconversation, and like I said, I
think we just barely touchedbullet points.
I would love to have you backand and go deeper into a number
of these topics.
Um, is there sort of a uh athought that you want to leave
(30:53):
our listeners with um withregards to your work and your
practice?
SPEAKER_01 (30:57):
You know, I am basically uh I mean, I'm
somebody who basically I'm doingwhat I love to be doing.
Um this is something I think weneed to, I think we need to
bring med, I mean, if it'spossible, I think medicine, I
think there's gonna be a tidewhere medicine is gonna go.
Uh the systems are always gonnabe there, but there's gonna be
(31:19):
this drive more from less uhsystem-based medicine to more
uh, I believe, private practice,more individualized,
personalized medicine, uh,because I just believe that the
two are very incomparable interms of the healthcare and the
attention that can be providedto these patients.
(31:41):
So I'm thinking that we may seesome degree of a shift.
And if I could be, for example,an uh you know, an example of
that shift, um, then then so beit.
Um, but uh by all means, I thinkthat um, you know, we need to
look at these things uh very uh,you know, uh uh through uh an
appropriate lens uh uh and andcomprehensive.
(32:04):
And um I'm just very happy to beobviously doing what I'm doing,
and I certainly appreciate uhhaving been uh on your program.
SPEAKER_00 (32:11):
Wonderful.
I I certainly hope you're right.
I I I agree.
I believe that's what that'swhat the community needs, that's
what that's what humanity needsare are private practice doctors
that are able to we just needmore doctors, probably, that are
qualified because that's reallysort of a dynamic of you got all
(32:31):
these people that need treatmentand only so many people that can
offer it and and all of that.
But meanwhile, you're on theright side of things.
How does somebody get a hold ofyou?
How does somebody reach out?
You know, this is you'resomebody that literally anybody
that's listening here um mightbe able to help.
SPEAKER_01 (32:52):
Yeah, so I can um I it can be reached on my website.
It's um Michael R Scoma MD, justlike it's spelled basically.com.
Um, I'm very easily searchableon Google.
I post on X, um, very readilyreachable.
My numbers, uh, office uh officeuh email address are readily
(33:13):
available on the website, uhonline.
Um uh but that would be theeasiest way to reach me in terms
of the website.
It has my office numbersavailable on it.
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
Beautiful.
Well, thank you so much forjoining us today.
And again, I welcome you to comeback.
I've got so much more I'd liketo talk about.
And um just grateful that youcould join us.
SPEAKER_01 (33:32):
Thank you so much.
That'd be great.
Thank you again, Joe.
SPEAKER_00 (33:35):
Beautiful.
This has been another episode ofthe Healthy Living Podcast.
I'm your host, Joe Grumbine, andI want to thank all the
listeners for making the showpossible, and we will see you
next time.
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