April 23, 2025 • 39 mins
What if healing your body image started with connection—not correction? In this episode of HIListically Speaking, Hilary Russo and therapist Deb Schachter, co-author of Body Image Inside Out, explore how our early relationships, emotional patterns, and self-talk shape the way we see ourselves. From personal stories to powerful metaphors like the rotary, they unpack how emotions live in the body and how curiosity, compassion, and mindfulness can transform our inner dialogue.
Perfect for anyone navigating body image, trauma-informed healing, or looking to build a healthier relationship with themselves—from the inside out.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Deb Schachter (00:00):
99% we feel of body image spikes are
related to something relational, whether
it's, you know, a micro moment or a bigger
moment.
Am I going to belong at this party or feel
good about you know, this date?
So as we start to track these things, the
sensations that we feel in our body because
our nervous system is reacting to our
experience both with feelings and
(00:21):
sensations it can go so quickly from
something I feel in my body to something I
feel about my body.
Hilary Russo (00:28):
I had one of those days when every mirror I
passed felt like I was looking at the enemy,
no matter what I did, no matter who told me
I looked great.
And let me tell you, chris is great about
doing that.
He's always saying you look beautiful, you
look lovely.
But when we don't believe it ourselves, no
matter how much black we wear to slim
ourselves, I saw the fat kid.
(00:50):
I saw the fat kid and it didn't matter,
right.
Have you had days like that?
I imagine you have.
It's natural.
But I will say this those days do happen
less and less, because I've learned how to
build a healthy relationship with my body.
And that really got me thinking about a
topic that comes up often.
(01:11):
Probably you've had these conversations too,
with friends, with family.
I hear it all the time.
What if your body's story held a key to
deeper healing?
What if the way we see ourselves isn't just
about mirrors and measurements, but about
connection and curiosity and
(01:31):
self-compassion?
How about that?
Today we're diving into the complex world
of body image.
I know it might be a little unsettling, but
it's important that we have these
conversations how it's shaped us, how it
holds us back and how we can transform that
relationship with self.
(01:52):
I couldn't ask for a better guest to
explore this topic Deb Schachter.
She's a therapist and she's Boston's
leading clinician in body image and eating
disorder recovery.
Deb, you've been helping people unpack
their body story for years the struggles,
the resilience and the wisdom that it holds
for three decades and I love this book that
(02:14):
you have, that you co-wrote with your dear
friend Whitney and we're going to talk
about Whitney too and the fact that you
bring in love and humor and mindfulness and
curiosity and self-compassion.
All the fact that you bring in love and
humor and mindfulness and curiosity and
self-compassion, all the things that you
have created in this body self-approach.
We're digging in.
Let's go there Awesome.
(02:34):
Where do you want to start?
Let me see, I believe I was about five
years old.
No, oh, this isn't a session, never mind,
just kidding.
Deb Schachter (02:42):
Well, I actually had one thought when you
were talking about, um, something like
don't worry, this isn't going to be too bad
or something.
And we that's how we always start our
workshops.
We've been running workshops together for
over 20 years and we always start by saying
don't worry, we're not going to make you
dance like a leaf, we're not going to make
you stand in front of a mirror naked and
name your favorite body part.
(03:03):
We're going to do this in a way that feels
interesting and funny and creative, where
people can't believe there could be
something creative about this process,
because it's actually turning our body
image inside out and really getting to know
it and really developing our relationship
with our body image.
So that's very different than trying to
change the way you think about your body.
Hilary Russo (03:23):
That's a really good way of putting it to
like building the relationship.
I'm constantly saying that it's not about
getting rid of a feeling, it's not about
disliking a part of yourself.
It's really about loving all parts right,
and we talk about parts work, obviously, in
the work that we do, but when it really
comes to all 2000 parts of our body right
(03:44):
and that includes every year that we're on
this planet there are going to be things
that we like and dislike about ourselves.
But it's the same thing as having a
relationship with someone else.
You might not love everything about that
person, but you still have a relationship
with that person.
So why are we not starting thinking about
that way about ourselves?
Deb Schachter (04:03):
Exactly, and most people don't even realize
that they can have a relationship with
their body image, that there is space
between us and our body image.
Most people just think we're one in the
same right and how we feel about ourselves
is how we look, and getting space in there
is really what Whitney and I are all about.
I always describe it as sort of getting the
jaws of life in between you and your body
(04:26):
image and starting to create more of a
dialogue, because there actually is so much
information in there and, as you said, the
negative body image is important as the
positive body image.
Learning more about why our body image is
spiking is where the gold is, so we really
want to get people to start to bring that
curiosity so we can start to unpack what's
actually in there rather than try and
(04:47):
override it.
Hilary Russo (04:48):
You've been doing this for a long time.
You know I mentioned and I think I even
read that you've been doing this for about
30 years, being a therapist but also
focusing on this area.
Can we go back to where this all started,
Like, how did you decide this would be your
focus?
How did Whitney come into the story?
And I want to talk about Whitney too,
(05:09):
because she's not here, but you both wrote
this amazing book, had this program, but
there's a story behind that and I'd love to
unpack that for those tuning in.
Deb Schachter (05:17):
It's actually really related to what we're
talking to.
So I mean, I always say I started, I became
a therapist before I knew I was a therapist.
When I was a young kid I was obsessed with
people like Harriet Tubman and Annie
Sullivan, who was Helen Keller's teacher.
I just thought this idea of working on the
healing modalities was just the coolest
(05:37):
thing from the time.
I was very small, I didn't really realize
what therapy was until I started therapy in
my 20s, which is actually when I had an
eating disorder myself.
So I started therapy and then I ended up
going to grad school and when I got out I
really was working with all kinds of
different folks.
But really this both the issue obviously of
(05:58):
eating disorders was interesting to me and
there wasn't a lot that was being talked
about body, about body image.
So for those first few years I was kind of
winging it and figuring it out as I went.
And then Whitney happened to reach out.
She was newly a graduate herself and was
really interested in kind of the work that
I was doing.
At that point I had developed a practice
and was running groups and we met.
(06:19):
She had just come off being in the Olympics
herself as a rower had an eating disorder
in that process herself, which makes sense.
She was a lightweight and there's so much
pressure around body size.
And we met and became fast friends and
bonding over all kinds of things, but
started talking about body image in a way
that we didn't plan on, but it just
(06:41):
happened and what we started to discover
was A what it's like to be able to really
be open about what's happening there
without someone else, either like you said,
oh you look beautiful, or that's silly, or
you know but just really bringing a huge
amount of curiosity and compassion to the
experience.
And when we did that, we realized there's
(07:02):
so much more that's happening that affects
our body image than we have any idea,
because we started to track for each other
oh, when I'm in this situation, my body
image is spiking and started to again.
Then bring that curiosity.
Whoa, that's fascinating.
I just had dinner with my dad and it was
really hard and I came home and all I could
think about was how huge my belly felt in
(07:24):
my jeans.
You know there's reasons that this stuff is
so connected, and so the more that we can
learn to decode that and understand all of
the ways that these things inform one
another.
It's a totally different ballgame.
So we started running workshops over 20
years ago.
They were small, they were in, you know,
gym basements and yoga studios and
(07:46):
ultimately we they got bigger and we um,
you know, kept running them, started
running them even for clinicians, and then
we decided at the you know, beginning of
2019 to write a book, because we felt like
the layout of the workshop really led
itself to be a perfect kind of um flow for
a workbook.
So, even though it's a smaller book, it's
(08:07):
not just a workbook.
It actually has exercises to really do what
I'm talking about all this breaking it down
and translating really giving people those
tools.
Hilary Russo (08:15):
I love that, so it's like a companion, if
you can't attend the workshop.
It's the pocket companion that you can take
with you, and those are good things to look
back on.
You know, and have that available to you.
If you can't attend the workshop, or even
if you you know financials as well if you
can't afford a workshop, If you can't have
Deb and Whitney with you 24-7, you can have
(08:38):
them poking in your ear saying, hey, Right.
Deb Schachter (08:42):
Totally, and so much of the book is really
anecdotal about clients, so that people
really I mean that's so much of what I do
in my practice too is the more you know we
have so much shame about this topic, even
though everybody's taking in the same
messages, we all feel like it shouldn't
bother us, which is a crazy conundrum.
So to share the stories of you know these
different folks and and how compelling
(09:04):
their story is of why they're, how their
body image stepped in to try and help which
is really the language we use that our body
image is really more of like a hero or a
heroine trying to help us manage something
we don't know how else to manage.
So giving those anecdotes and you're like,
oh gosh, that makes so much sense.
She had this ill sibling and you know she
wanted to just keep herself really together,
(09:24):
so her parents didn't worry about her and
that ended up going into its own direction.
You know, those are the kinds of things
that we really need to understand more and
give voice to.
Hilary Russo (09:32):
And the connection like everything you're
saying is connection.
We don't do anything alone.
And I think when we hear I know, when I
read books and as I'm in the process of
finishing mine, I love adding the antidotes.
I love reading the antidotes because it
reminds us we're not alone in the battle.
Deb Schachter (09:50):
A thousand percent.
Hilary Russo (09:52):
Even be my own antidotes, even be your own
as the authors of the book.
It's like you're human, we're going through
it.
We're not just teaching and telling, we're
also sharing as human beings, sisters,
basically.
Deb Schachter (10:04):
Whit and I actually, in the introduction,
tell our story, kind of the one I just told,
and we each had a name.
This was before we knew anything about
internal family systems or parts work, but
we each had a name.
I mean we had many names, but for each
other I'm sorry for ourselves that we
shared with the other.
So Whitney's was fat temp because she was
after the Olympics, you know, in some
(10:25):
basement at Harvard where she needed to be
after leaving the Olympics, going through
divorce, and just needed something that had
a steady paycheck that she could count on.
But she felt so out of shape because she
had been in this epic experience.
Also was temping, which didn't feel very
fancy after you know a very impressive
career.
And I was crazy raisin because I was 33 and
(10:46):
dating and miserable and had just broken up
with someone of many years and felt like I
was going on these dates on it.
It was just when internet dating was
starting to be a big thing.
So I felt crazy and I felt like I was
shriveling up because I grew up in
California and all of a sudden I have these
lines on my face.
So all of my worries about?
All of a sudden I'm getting too old, so so
fat temp and crazy raisin we talk about
with like so much love and endearment now.
Hilary Russo (11:09):
Yeah, and that's the humor, right.
I mean we say these silly things like in
the moment it sucked with a capital S, but
as we move through it and we look back on
some of the things we really were upset
about or were hurt about, and it doesn't
take away the upset, it certainly is not
demeaning or lessening someone's upsets or
traumas, but when we look back on those
(11:30):
things, I think that's where the humor is
such an important part of the healing.
Deb Schachter (11:34):
It's sort of the humanity the humor and the
humanity Like, oh God, this poor woman,
whatever her experience, is sitting on the
floor sobbing over 20 pairs of jeans.
It's about so much more than the jeans,
right?
Hilary Russo (11:46):
It also sounds like the name of a band Fat
Temp and the Crazy Raisins.
Deb Schachter (11:52):
Oh my God, I love that, and I know Whitney
will too.
That's great, I love it.
Hilary Russo (11:56):
I think about that myself and I've shared
this many times on HIListically Speaking,
that when I was 14 years old 13, 14, around
that time I actually dealt with some
serious like weight issues and I know back
then I didn't know why, you know the
control, why am I, why am I going to that
direction?
But I actually went to a weight loss camp
(12:19):
and affectionately we called it fat camp,
right.
And then there was a TV show that came out,
a reality show I don't know like 10, 15
years ago, called Fat Camp, and it wound up
being my Fat Camp.
It was my camp, it was the one where I
stayed, yeah, and there were many of those
back in the 80s, right, there were tons of
those camps and they've grown in a way
(12:48):
where they're more of a health and wellness
facility and camp rather than just eat a
piece of toast with cottage cheese and
blueberries and call it a day.
So finding the humor in it is important.
But as we get older, as we learn, as we
have skills, as we get more in touch with
ourselves, I think there's that element and
you and I talked about this before of that
nervous system regulation, knowing what's
(13:09):
showing up when the body is is talking to
you and are you truly listening?
Right, yeah, and so can we.
Can we touch on that a little bit?
Deb Schachter (13:18):
Absolutely.
I guess the first thing that comes to mind
I'm going to bridge it a little bit, if
that's okay is that one of one of our early
tools is really looking at what we call a
rotary.
We live in Boston so we have these crazy
rotaries that go round and round.
So we talk about this idea that if we start,
you know, we label and really get clear
about what might've triggered our
(13:38):
experience.
So if I use that example from before, you
know having dinner maybe with a parent that
that was really difficult.
We start with that experience and we can
actually help people track what their
rotary looks like.
So, have a big experience, have big
feelings very quickly that can move into.
I don't feel good about my body and these
are all the things I'm going to do to fix
it.
So we're really moving around the rotary
(13:59):
and when you do that with people, they're
so blown away because they all have their
own unique rotaries, even though there's so
much universality to that.
So to bring that into what you were asking,
so often what happens is when we have a
relational experience I mean 99%.
We feel of eating disorder, of body image
spikes are related to something relational,
(14:20):
whether it's a micro moment or a bigger
moment, am I going to belong at this party
or feel good about this date?
So as we start to track these things, the
sensations that we feel in our body because
our nervous system is reacting to our
experience both with feelings and
sensations it can go so quickly from
(14:41):
something I feel in my body to something I
feel about my body.
So when people often say things like I
literally feel like I'm gaining weight
sitting here talking to you, my fat, my
fingers look bigger, my, you know butt is
spreading on the chair, whatever it is,
that's likely something really emotional
that's getting expressed through those
(15:02):
sensations and because we obviously all get
these messages about our bodies not being
right and that they need to be fixed, it
becomes this really compelling way to try
and manage that overwhelm of emotions and
sensations.
So that's my, that's my bridge.
I hope that makes sense.
Hilary Russo (15:17):
Perfect, yeah, yeah, and you know, I think
it's really being aware of those sensations
right, because you know, in the nervous
system you're having the autonomic, the
somatic, the, the emotional and the
cognitive side of things, right.
So being aware of where it's coming from
(15:39):
and showing up for you is important because,
yeah, you can sit there and be like, oh my
God, I'm so bloated, I shouldn't have had
that piece of cake.
It's not the cake, right?
Why are we making the cake?
The enemy?
Deb Schachter (15:50):
Totally Well, because it gives us something
to focus on and blame something going right.
And something we can fix.
Right, Right, I mean, I just had this
conversation with somebody yesterday and we
were saying what if what's happening in the
body is really this information that we
need to be able to do whatever we want to
do next?
And what if we can slow that down enough to
(16:11):
really translate it?
So in our book, really starting to look at
the words that people use, because they're
really the words for the nervous system,
right, so it could be buzzy, it could be
tingly, it could be droopy, it could be
scratchy that when you get people to start
to actually describe my belly, my bloated
(16:33):
belly feels like do, do, do, do, do.
And this is where this is one of my
favorite things is starting to see how
these descriptors actually relate to other
contexts in their life that they may not
even realize which is really cool.
Hilary Russo (16:48):
Can.
Deb Schachter (16:48):
I give you an example.
Hilary Russo (16:49):
Yeah, please do.
Deb Schachter (16:50):
Because sometimes I think examples are
helpful.
So I run a group for women over 40 and one
of the women in the group I think you'll
relate to this, I think based on your age
reference, but she was talking about being
14 or whatever, 14, 15, and wanting to look
a certain way in her Sassoon jeans, which
just made me go you just dated us I know
(17:11):
exactly I was like.
I think I remember those.
They were related to the hair products, I
don't even know, anyway, but she was
talking about how she just wanted her body
to look the same and I was like, well, what
does that mean?
So she was describing she kept going with
her arms, like you know, like a column,
like I want.
I don't want there to be any difference, I
want it to be one long line.
And then I asked her what else was
(17:32):
happening in your life at that time?
And that was right, when her mom, who was
already quite mentally ill, really got
dysregulated and her dad had to come in and
actually remove her from the home.
So if you think about the language she's
kept saying, I just want my body to look
the same, I just want all the lines to look
the same.
And I asked her so when you hear about the
(17:53):
same versus different, and what did you
want to be the same?
And she thought, oh my God, like I just
went through the biggest change in my life.
That was terrifying.
So if we think about that language the same
and change starting to get people thinking
about what words they're using, and
especially when it, when it does line up
with these events in our lives that feel so
profound, yeah, okay, so we're talking
(18:14):
about the book as well as part of your
process, and I really want to mention it
because we haven't done it so much.
Hilary Russo (18:20):
Show it up too.
So it's body image inside out, a
revolutionary approach to body image
healing, with Deb Schachter and her
coauthor and very dear friend, whitney Otto,
who is a former Olympic athlete.
Deb Schachter (18:33):
It's a softback and we've got all kinds of
like exercises and things you can do, love
that.
Hilary Russo (18:38):
So it is kind of a workbook and a book.
Deb Schachter (18:41):
Absolutely Love that you can read it either
way, you can read it for content.
But if you want to do the exercises and we
always say, do which ones feel resonate for
you we have like mad libs where you're kind
of like filling in, like if my body were
blah, blah, blah, then I would feel more
blah, blah, blah.
Now you're really dating us.
Sorry, I know I am.
So we've thrown out Sassoon, we've thrown
out mad libs.
Hilary Russo (19:01):
And then, at the end of this, we're going
to have a contest to say how old are both
of us Exactly?
I love my Gen X self Exactly Speaking about
that, you know you're.
You said women over 40.
So we're talking about people who are
perimenopause, menopausal post.
You know where are you seeing that?
Deb Schachter (19:20):
as most of your, the people that are
picking up this book, or I'd say no,
although you know, I think that's a really
important audience and we actually, in the
podcasts that we've been doing, we got so
many requests from particularly dietitians
who work with that age group, because that
is an age where our body obviously maybe
(19:41):
change, is changing in a variety of ways
that don't make sense to us, and so I think
that can really lend itself to having that
important conversation about again what's
happening in our life and how that affects
how we see ourselves, especially when our
bodies are actually changing, whatever that
may be, whether it's weight and size or hot
flashes or whatever it is.
So, yes, yes, yes, that's a great
population, but really one of my favorite
(20:03):
things about this book is anybody can read
it.
We all have feeling, we all have bodies and
we all have feelings about them, and we
have so few places to know how to talk
about them in productive ways.
So when we started, when I started to tell
people about the book like I was getting my
teeth cleaned by my dentist who's, you know,
he's probably in his sixties and he was
like, is it weird that I want to read the
book?
Like is that?
(20:23):
And I was like that's awesome.
And when we actually did a very early
taping for our taping that's dating me to
some video for for an Instagram post.
Whitney has actually has her own podcast
with another Olympic athlete called
Untrained, and we were using her producer
and in the middle of our thing he said can
(20:45):
I talk about?
When I went to LL Bean yesterday and I had
to buy the bigger shorts and they were felt
like a tent but the smaller ones were too
tight and it was so awesome.
We were like, please, can we talk about
your shorts?
This is the work.
So everybody wants to talk about this.
They just don't know how.
Hilary Russo (21:01):
That's such a good way of putting it.
Everyone wants to talk about it, but they
don't know how.
There is no one out there that probably
doesn't struggle in some capacity with
their body image, even an Olympic athlete
at the best form that they are.
I was just watching something the other day
with somebody who was a pageant, you know,
(21:22):
in Miss USA, and a lot of times I think we
think that's the group that's going to be
suffering the most, like, oh, the
supermodels have to eat a carrot a day, or,
you know, those who are Olympic athletes
are on a very strict diet.
But it's like we're human and it's not just.
I don't think anymore.
I think we are now well, not that yes,
we're still human.
What I mean is I don't think it's only
(21:44):
about the outside anymore.
I think people are really in touch with
what it means to live well, optimally,
holistically, whatever the term is you want
to use.
People are more in alignment with that
longevity.
So a book like this is also tapping into
that side of things.
Like you have to be able to have a good
(22:05):
image of who you are and why, and how
you're showing up in this world and how you
want to live well.
But if you're not in a good relationship
with yourself.
Deb Schachter (22:14):
You're just going to keep having that same
cyclical conversation and putting yourself
down exactly, exactly, and that's why we
use the rotary, because we do a second
rotary where we bring in our tools.
We have sort of three muscles which are
mindful awareness, curiosity and compassion.
Those are kind of the body image inside out
muscles, and from there we really build
(22:35):
that out so that when you get to these
moments where these spikes happen, you can
actually start to decode it and ultimately
be more connected to yourself.
And that's really Whitney's a coach,
actually she's an executive coach, and so
she used it, brought in the word resourcing,
which I think is wonderful.
It's like if we can decode what our body
image is saying, then we can start to
(22:56):
really figure out what we actually need.
So that could be anything, that could be a
big fat.
No, because we don't want to go to the you
know, whatever it is PTA event or it might
be.
I need more of something, more more quiet,
more stillness, more nature, more
connection.
So even something as simple as my arms are
(23:16):
should be more toned or something can
actually get us to.
I need more boundaries.
Hilary Russo (23:25):
That's just not always physical.
Deb Schachter (23:27):
Yeah, it's totally not, and it's why I love,
love.
We talk a lot about jealousy and
idealization, and if we can start to lean
into some of those things and actually
again, rather than you shouldn't be jealous,
you're fabulous, but really think who are
you jealous of and why?
Then you can start to really figure out
what is it about their butt or their arms
or their you know thighs that that make
(23:50):
their life the way it is.
What is it about their life?
And you imagine that body gives them that
you actually really want, and it's so often
ease, connection, joy, and that's what we
want to help people work on.
Hilary Russo (24:04):
Yeah, that's great.
Love that so much.
And just for those, as a reminder, deb has
this amazing book she's co-authored with a
dear friend called Body Image Inside Out.
This is a really wonderful companion to
have.
There you go.
You're so good at the Vanna White.
It's a great book to have.
(24:24):
And do you have an audio version?
Deb Schachter (24:27):
We don't, yet we're working on it.
We're working on it we just got asked to
have it translated in Lebanese though,
which I'm so pumped about.
I feel so honored.
But we're working on that, and we do do
workshops right.
We're most focused right now on a big
workshop we're going to be doing in the
early fall for clinicians and anybody who
(24:47):
works with body image, so that could be
personal trainers, uh, you know, physical
therapists, teachers, doctors, um
therapists, nutritionists, that kind of
thing, and then we're I'm sure we'll be
doing more also um in-person and virtual
workshops as well.
Hilary Russo (25:03):
And we'll put all of that in the podcast
notes how to get in touch with you and
Whitney, how to grab this book All of that
will be in the notes of this podcast
episode.
So, and if you're touched, moved and
inspired by this conversation, if this is
something that resonates with you or you're
like, oh, I know somebody who could really
use this conversation, pay it forward,
y'all, like, pay it forward, share it.
(25:24):
Yeah, that's my little Southern.
I live down South for a while, so I have
not gotten rid of the y'all.
But you know, pay it forward, share it.
This is a collective, it's a community
effort what we're doing here on this planet.
So do that.
And then, you know, pick up the book.
So there'll be a lot of opportunities to
see how you can bring this into your life.
(25:45):
And, you know, making one change can make a
difference, one small change making one
change can make a difference, one small
change.
You don't have to do it all, you don't have
to do the mad libs, you don't have to do
any of the exercises.
You can read it, you can jump around, right,
it's a book, you can jump around Totally.
Deb Schachter (25:58):
You can read what resonates for you.
But I always say to people if you want to
do one thing, which is really at the core
of our work, it's just starting to notice
when your body image gets louder.
So it's going from I look like shit today.
I hate the way I look.
I'm so fill in the blank to wow.
My body image is really loud today.
(26:19):
The things I'm saying to myself are really
nasty.
That's a huge jump and a real opportunity
to start to practice, just starting to
track your body image and really start to
think of it, almost like you're tracking
the weather, and start to move one step
away from your body image.
So that's what I always give when I give
one nugget, that's the one.
Hilary Russo (26:37):
That's a good one too, because negative
self talk is so big.
I mean, look our brains.
As you know, as a therapist and being in
the space as well, the brain loves to go to
the negative.
It is a negative Nelly.
That's what keeps us alive and safe.
So if we can just make one small change on
how we're talking to ourselves like I hate
my body, I feel fat too I'm working on
(26:59):
making a positive change in the right
direction.
That in itself has the same outcome, just a
different message.
Deb Schachter (27:06):
Yeah, totally, and just saying, wow, it's
really loud today.
My body image is loud today.
That is very different.
Yeah, and accepting it.
I love that.
The, the, it's very loud today, it's just
(27:27):
being aware and yeah, definitely.
Hilary Russo (27:30):
So where would you like to see things go
with this book, with the whole idea?
Deb Schachter (27:34):
of what you're doing Like what's?
Hilary Russo (27:36):
what's your view on how you see things
going forward?
Deb Schachter (27:39):
Oh, I love that, so I think our fantasy
would be.
I don't know if you know Dr Becky.
She's a great parenting coach.
Hilary Russo (27:46):
Do you?
Deb Schachter (27:46):
know her at all.
I do not.
Oh my gosh, you got to check her out.
She's amazing, she's wonderful.
She just has these great nuggets that are
just so accessible.
So she's really taught.
She's really taught the different, a
different language for how you relate to
your kids.
Very similar, lots of curiosity.
So for us it's the same thing.
It's like what if, when you go to the
(28:07):
doctor and you were to say my body image is
really loud and they'd say so, what's going
on in your life?
Why do you think that might be Like people
starting to to share that perspective?
That body image has a much greater function
and that negative body image is I kind of
describe it like an indicator light on our
car, like you know windshield, wiper, fluid
(28:27):
and low battery charge that it's just an
indicator light that something else is
happening.
So if we could have that in more settings
teachers, pts you know so many people that
come face to face with this and don't know
how to respond so that people have more
skillful ways to say that's usually a sign
that something else is happening in your
life.
I wonder what that might be.
Maybe that's something you can work on,
(28:48):
whether it's in your own therapy or journal
or whatever, but starting to really build a
practice of noticing when your body image
gets louder and really trusting and
believing, just like a headache, that it's
trying to tell you something but there's
something else that's that's bumping it up
and that that's an opportunity to to lean
in.
Hilary Russo (29:05):
Love that Okay.
Deb Schachter (29:07):
Teachers.
I would love it to be more in schools.
We're really trying to get it to counselors
at schools, places where this stuff is
popping up everywhere.
Hilary Russo (29:15):
There is always room for improvement and
growth, right For sure.
Tree never stops growing.
Why should we?
So?
Yeah, I love that, so is there anything
else you want to share that we haven't
covered, because I'm going to play a little
game with you, but I want to give you an
opportunity that maybe I haven't tapped on,
something that you'd really like to hit.
Deb Schachter (29:37):
The only other thing I guess I would say is
that the biggest aha in the book was
chapter five.
So we chapter four is was this notion of we
carry our stories in our bodies, as you
were just describing our body image is the
longest relationship.
I'm sorry.
Our body is the longest relationship we'll
ever have, right?
The?
longest relationship we'll ever have is
with our own body.
(29:57):
So we, you know we're writing all about how
it holds our story and all this like
somatic stuff.
And somewhere in the middle I texted
Whitney and I was like, oh my God, chapter
four is going to have a baby.
It's definitely another chapter coming
through and it's become really the seminal
workshop.
Chapter.
Workshop kind of focus is this idea that
body image and relationships there's a huge
(30:19):
interplay there, that that's really
everything.
So really empowering people to get curious
about what happens in our body image, in
relationships, both historically in terms
of how we were mirrored, what was reflected
back to us, maybe not even related to our
body image, but what we took in when we
were young, about who we were, what we were
capable of, what our strengths and
weaknesses were, what we might be needed to
(30:41):
be more of or less of, to stay connected,
as you said, survival, and then how that
can also inform, ultimately inform how we
see our bodies and how changing our bodies
becomes a tempting way to stay more
connected and, ultimately, to really notice.
In the moment when you leave, like what you
were saying, I feel like all of a sudden my
stomach's so bloated when we leave, an
(31:02):
experience where, all of a sudden, we're
focused on our body.
Why do I?
What do I feel so full of?
What am I really holding inside?
Maybe it's unexpressed anger, maybe it's
hurt, you know, really starting to track
the interplay between our relationships,
both historically and in current day, and
really notice how that affects our body
image, cause that's ultimately I we really
believe, that's that's where all the gold
(31:24):
is, is in that interplay.
Hilary Russo (31:26):
Love that.
How difficult was it to write a book with
someone else?
Like, how did you divide those duties with
Whitney?
Deb Schachter (31:32):
Oh, it's such a great question.
We both feel so unclear about how any of
this happened.
At this point we're both our heads are
still spinning.
But what was so cool, honestly, was that so
much of the nature of it, the flow of it
made sense, but we learned so much more
about what we knew as we wrote, so we
really wrote most of it together, about
what we knew as we wrote, so we really
wrote most of it together.
I mean, there were truly, I think maybe
(31:53):
hundreds of iterations of edits.
Whitney's husband is actually a CBT expert
and author, so he was amazing.
My husband is a scientist but an excellent
punctuation master, so we had lots of eyes
on it.
But really the actual content more.
I think the coolest part was that all these
things came out that we didn't know existed,
and how to say, how do you decode, but how
(32:14):
do you actually break that down in an
exercise.
But it really was very collaborative.
We did very little.
I mean we did a lot independently once it
was down, but all the editing, but really
we wrote it together and Whitney really
brought in this beautiful piece at the end
around the resourcing, I think we didn't
know exactly where we'd land and it
ultimately was like what do you do now that
you have all this information?
(32:35):
And those last couple chapters are really
her swan song.
They're beautiful and really using a lot of
different tactics to get more.
How do we learn how to resonate and what
resonates for our body?
And, as Mary Oliver says, let the soft
animal body which we always love, love what
it loves.
You know, how do we really let our animal
body inside kind of lead us to what our
(32:56):
truth is?
So, um, anyway.
So we really it was very collaborative, um,
not always easy, but very collaborative in
terms of really what we wanted to bring to
the world.
Hilary Russo (33:05):
Yeah, to work well together.
It was meant to be.
I love that about the soft body inside.
Yeah, isn't that beautiful.
Let love that about the soft body inside.
Yeah, isn't that beautiful.
Let the let the soft animal body of your,
let the soft animal body love what it loves.
I love that quote.
Yeah, so like I felt that, like I'm like,
yeah, like really giving it some nurturing.
(33:26):
How often do we nurture ourselves?
Look that I mean it's that's part of the
work I do is the self nurturing approach
when I'm working as a havening practitioner,
but it makes I'm like thinking about that
so helpful when you can say oh, I feel this,
so what do I need?
Deb Schachter (33:40):
what needs nurturing?
What?
Hilary Russo (33:42):
needs.
I feel so depleted.
Deb Schachter (33:44):
After you know this really hard day at work
where I'd have fire 10 people or something.
What do I need?
What do I need to take in?
What do I need?
Maybe it's to just release whatever.
Hilary Russo (33:55):
So yeah, yeah, learning.
Deb Schachter (33:57):
That is so pretty.
Hilary Russo (33:58):
I love that.
That's a great way to to lead into the next
thing, but actually that's a good way to
close this.
But I still got something for you.
Um, I play a little game with my guests
called Brain Candy.
It is a rapid fire game, meaning that I've
been writing down words that Deb has been
saying during this conversation.
(34:18):
I'm going to throw one word out at you that
you said.
I want you to come back and say the first
word that comes to mind.
Deb Schachter (34:24):
A little word, sort of like free
association.
Yeah, exactly what it is.
Hilary Russo (34:27):
It's a word association game, so I'll throw
the word out.
You come back, have a little brain candy
fun, you ready.
Deb Schachter (34:40):
Okay, I'm ready.
Okay, here we go.
Self-talk, self-listen, compassion,
softness, resilience.
Hilary Russo (34:45):
Breath.
Relationship To Regulation.
Relationship Two Regulation Rhythm,
mindfulness, spaciousness, resourcing,
listening, body Image Two words I know.
Deb Schachter (35:05):
Inside out Body Self.
Hilary Russo (35:11):
Multidimensional.
Oh, I like that.
Yeah, it definitely is.
And since body self was one word.
Deb Schachter (35:20):
That was what we originally called
ourselves before the body image inside out.
So we realized that was a verb to turn our
body inside out.
We were the body self.
Which is this idea that it's such a
multi-dimensional experience of body image
that there are all these dimensions
happening in there.
Hilary Russo (35:33):
It's not just, you know, screen or
billboard or tv I have one more that I'm
gonna throw out at you.
Deb Schachter (35:40):
It's two words okay, because we got to end
with a little humor oh gosh okay um, crazy
raisin.
Hilary Russo (35:46):
Hmm, fat temp.
Deb Schachter (35:49):
Like you go right, you're throwing it back
to whitney yeah, crazy raisin, and also, I
would say, I guess, compassion.
God bless her 32 year old heart if I could
tell her, you know, 25 years later she was
gonna write a book yeah what would you tell
yourself?
Hilary Russo (36:06):
what would you tell yourself, deb?
You're gonna get me to cry now, then my
work here is done.
Deb Schachter (36:14):
That's what I say all the time.
You're going to write a book about crazy
raising.
You're going to write a book about how
scary it is to be single at 32 and all your
friends are dating and you're actually
going to make it to 41 and still be single,
and then you're going to meet this amazing
human.
So it's all going to be okay.
Hilary Russo (36:30):
That checks all the T's and the I's Exactly.
Oh, I love that.
That's so great.
Thank you so much for being here.
Is there anything that you would want to
share with those who are tuning in?
Deb Schachter (36:43):
God, I think you covered it so beautifully.
I feel so lucky.
I feel like one of the challenges in this
is sort of some of it can feel, you know,
like you're sort of saying the same things
over and over, and I feel like the way you
ask questions today was just really
fantastic and really got us talking about a
lot of things that I don't get to talk
about as much.
So I really appreciate your, your lens on
all of it.
So I think I think we covered it.
Hilary Russo (37:04):
I appreciate that I always say and people
who tune into the show know that I feel
like every person I have on this show is
like a masterclass for me too.
Deb Schachter (37:12):
You know, I don't know everything Right.
Hilary Russo (37:15):
And so I sit here with amazing guests like
yourself and I think, gosh, I just want to
hang with her.
I gotcha, I gotta get up to Boston.
Yeah, totally, it's a conversation more
than anything.
We're human beings.
We have to have these open conversations
and I'm really glad you felt that way.
Deb Schachter (37:31):
But you asked great questions.
You really did Thank you so much.
Hilary Russo (37:35):
My pleasure, pleasure having you here.
Thank you.
Deb Schachter (37:38):
Thank you so much.
Hilary Russo (37:39):
All right, my friend, if you find that this
conversation has been helpful, if you know
somebody who might find it valuable,
consider paying it forward, passing it
along.
You know, do yourself a favor, make sure
that you are downloading HIListically
Speaking, so that you have these episodes
when you need them the most.
Pay it forward, leave a rating, a review.
It's always appreciated.
(38:01):
And you know I'm going to connect you with
Deb.
So I promise you that if you are interested
in getting in touch with her or connecting
with her, or even grabbing the book Body
Image Inside Out, a book that she co-wrote
with her dear friend and former Olympian,
Whitney Otto, I'm going to put that all in
the notes of this podcast so you don't have
to search for it.
You can just click the button, grab the
(38:21):
book, get in touch with her, follow her and
make that connection right, because it's
all about connection.
We also talked about self-regulation during
this conversation, and you know that is my
jam, so I want you to check out one of my
Havening Happy Hours.
Come and join me live online.
I do these every month.
It's a chance to self-regulate and
self-soothe, for self-care, with
(38:42):
self-havening and neuroscience on your side.
I welcome you and I would love to see you
there, and I think the best way to close
this is to mention part of that poem by
Mary Oliver that Deb mentioned.
It's called Wild Geese, and I leave you
with this.
You don't have to be good, you don't have
to walk on your knees for hundreds of miles
(39:05):
through the desert, repenting.
You only have to let the soft animal of
your body love what it loves.
How about that?
(39:26):
So, on that note, know that I love you, I
believe in you and I'm sending hugs, your
mountains in her eyes.
99% we feel of body image spikes are
related to something relational, whether
it's, you know, a micro moment or a bigger
moment.
Am I going to belong at this party or feel
good about you know, this date?
So as we start to track these things, the
sensations that we feel in our body because
our nervous system is reacting to our
experience both with feelings and
(00:21):
sensations it can go so quickly from
something I feel in my body to something I
feel about my body.
Hilary Russo (00:28):
I had one of those days when every mirror I
passed felt like I was looking at the enemy,
no matter what I did, no matter who told me
I looked great.
And let me tell you, chris is great about
doing that.
He's always saying you look beautiful, you
look lovely.
But when we don't believe it ourselves, no
matter how much black we wear to slim
ourselves, I saw the fat kid.
(00:50):
I saw the fat kid and it didn't matter,
right.
Have you had days like that?
I imagine you have.
It's natural.
But I will say this those days do happen
less and less, because I've learned how to
build a healthy relationship with my body.
And that really got me thinking about a
topic that comes up often.
(01:11):
Probably you've had these conversations too,
with friends, with family.
I hear it all the time.
What if your body's story held a key to
deeper healing?
What if the way we see ourselves isn't just
about mirrors and measurements, but about
connection and curiosity and
(01:31):
self-compassion?
How about that?
Today we're diving into the complex world
of body image.
I know it might be a little unsettling, but
it's important that we have these
conversations how it's shaped us, how it
holds us back and how we can transform that
relationship with self.
(01:52):
I couldn't ask for a better guest to
explore this topic Deb Schachter.
She's a therapist and she's Boston's
leading clinician in body image and eating
disorder recovery.
Deb, you've been helping people unpack
their body story for years the struggles,
the resilience and the wisdom that it holds
for three decades and I love this book that
(02:14):
you have, that you co-wrote with your dear
friend Whitney and we're going to talk
about Whitney too and the fact that you
bring in love and humor and mindfulness and
curiosity and self-compassion.
All the fact that you bring in love and
humor and mindfulness and curiosity and
self-compassion, all the things that you
have created in this body self-approach.
We're digging in.
Let's go there Awesome.
(02:34):
Where do you want to start?
Let me see, I believe I was about five
years old.
No, oh, this isn't a session, never mind,
just kidding.
Deb Schachter (02:42):
Well, I actually had one thought when you
were talking about, um, something like
don't worry, this isn't going to be too bad
or something.
And we that's how we always start our
workshops.
We've been running workshops together for
over 20 years and we always start by saying
don't worry, we're not going to make you
dance like a leaf, we're not going to make
you stand in front of a mirror naked and
name your favorite body part.
(03:03):
We're going to do this in a way that feels
interesting and funny and creative, where
people can't believe there could be
something creative about this process,
because it's actually turning our body
image inside out and really getting to know
it and really developing our relationship
with our body image.
So that's very different than trying to
change the way you think about your body.
Hilary Russo (03:23):
That's a really good way of putting it to
like building the relationship.
I'm constantly saying that it's not about
getting rid of a feeling, it's not about
disliking a part of yourself.
It's really about loving all parts right,
and we talk about parts work, obviously, in
the work that we do, but when it really
comes to all 2000 parts of our body right
(03:44):
and that includes every year that we're on
this planet there are going to be things
that we like and dislike about ourselves.
But it's the same thing as having a
relationship with someone else.
You might not love everything about that
person, but you still have a relationship
with that person.
So why are we not starting thinking about
that way about ourselves?
Deb Schachter (04:03):
Exactly, and most people don't even realize
that they can have a relationship with
their body image, that there is space
between us and our body image.
Most people just think we're one in the
same right and how we feel about ourselves
is how we look, and getting space in there
is really what Whitney and I are all about.
I always describe it as sort of getting the
jaws of life in between you and your body
(04:26):
image and starting to create more of a
dialogue, because there actually is so much
information in there and, as you said, the
negative body image is important as the
positive body image.
Learning more about why our body image is
spiking is where the gold is, so we really
want to get people to start to bring that
curiosity so we can start to unpack what's
actually in there rather than try and
(04:47):
override it.
Hilary Russo (04:48):
You've been doing this for a long time.
You know I mentioned and I think I even
read that you've been doing this for about
30 years, being a therapist but also
focusing on this area.
Can we go back to where this all started,
Like, how did you decide this would be your
focus?
How did Whitney come into the story?
And I want to talk about Whitney too,
(05:09):
because she's not here, but you both wrote
this amazing book, had this program, but
there's a story behind that and I'd love to
unpack that for those tuning in.
Deb Schachter (05:17):
It's actually really related to what we're
talking to.
So I mean, I always say I started, I became
a therapist before I knew I was a therapist.
When I was a young kid I was obsessed with
people like Harriet Tubman and Annie
Sullivan, who was Helen Keller's teacher.
I just thought this idea of working on the
healing modalities was just the coolest
(05:37):
thing from the time.
I was very small, I didn't really realize
what therapy was until I started therapy in
my 20s, which is actually when I had an
eating disorder myself.
So I started therapy and then I ended up
going to grad school and when I got out I
really was working with all kinds of
different folks.
But really this both the issue obviously of
(05:58):
eating disorders was interesting to me and
there wasn't a lot that was being talked
about body, about body image.
So for those first few years I was kind of
winging it and figuring it out as I went.
And then Whitney happened to reach out.
She was newly a graduate herself and was
really interested in kind of the work that
I was doing.
At that point I had developed a practice
and was running groups and we met.
(06:19):
She had just come off being in the Olympics
herself as a rower had an eating disorder
in that process herself, which makes sense.
She was a lightweight and there's so much
pressure around body size.
And we met and became fast friends and
bonding over all kinds of things, but
started talking about body image in a way
that we didn't plan on, but it just
(06:41):
happened and what we started to discover
was A what it's like to be able to really
be open about what's happening there
without someone else, either like you said,
oh you look beautiful, or that's silly, or
you know but just really bringing a huge
amount of curiosity and compassion to the
experience.
And when we did that, we realized there's
(07:02):
so much more that's happening that affects
our body image than we have any idea,
because we started to track for each other
oh, when I'm in this situation, my body
image is spiking and started to again.
Then bring that curiosity.
Whoa, that's fascinating.
I just had dinner with my dad and it was
really hard and I came home and all I could
think about was how huge my belly felt in
(07:24):
my jeans.
You know there's reasons that this stuff is
so connected, and so the more that we can
learn to decode that and understand all of
the ways that these things inform one
another.
It's a totally different ballgame.
So we started running workshops over 20
years ago.
They were small, they were in, you know,
gym basements and yoga studios and
(07:46):
ultimately we they got bigger and we um,
you know, kept running them, started
running them even for clinicians, and then
we decided at the you know, beginning of
2019 to write a book, because we felt like
the layout of the workshop really led
itself to be a perfect kind of um flow for
a workbook.
So, even though it's a smaller book, it's
(08:07):
not just a workbook.
It actually has exercises to really do what
I'm talking about all this breaking it down
and translating really giving people those
tools.
Hilary Russo (08:15):
I love that, so it's like a companion, if
you can't attend the workshop.
It's the pocket companion that you can take
with you, and those are good things to look
back on.
You know, and have that available to you.
If you can't attend the workshop, or even
if you you know financials as well if you
can't afford a workshop, If you can't have
Deb and Whitney with you 24-7, you can have
(08:38):
them poking in your ear saying, hey, Right.
Deb Schachter (08:42):
Totally, and so much of the book is really
anecdotal about clients, so that people
really I mean that's so much of what I do
in my practice too is the more you know we
have so much shame about this topic, even
though everybody's taking in the same
messages, we all feel like it shouldn't
bother us, which is a crazy conundrum.
So to share the stories of you know these
different folks and and how compelling
(09:04):
their story is of why they're, how their
body image stepped in to try and help which
is really the language we use that our body
image is really more of like a hero or a
heroine trying to help us manage something
we don't know how else to manage.
So giving those anecdotes and you're like,
oh gosh, that makes so much sense.
She had this ill sibling and you know she
wanted to just keep herself really together,
(09:24):
so her parents didn't worry about her and
that ended up going into its own direction.
You know, those are the kinds of things
that we really need to understand more and
give voice to.
Hilary Russo (09:32):
And the connection like everything you're
saying is connection.
We don't do anything alone.
And I think when we hear I know, when I
read books and as I'm in the process of
finishing mine, I love adding the antidotes.
I love reading the antidotes because it
reminds us we're not alone in the battle.
Deb Schachter (09:50):
A thousand percent.
Hilary Russo (09:52):
Even be my own antidotes, even be your own
as the authors of the book.
It's like you're human, we're going through
it.
We're not just teaching and telling, we're
also sharing as human beings, sisters,
basically.
Deb Schachter (10:04):
Whit and I actually, in the introduction,
tell our story, kind of the one I just told,
and we each had a name.
This was before we knew anything about
internal family systems or parts work, but
we each had a name.
I mean we had many names, but for each
other I'm sorry for ourselves that we
shared with the other.
So Whitney's was fat temp because she was
after the Olympics, you know, in some
(10:25):
basement at Harvard where she needed to be
after leaving the Olympics, going through
divorce, and just needed something that had
a steady paycheck that she could count on.
But she felt so out of shape because she
had been in this epic experience.
Also was temping, which didn't feel very
fancy after you know a very impressive
career.
And I was crazy raisin because I was 33 and
(10:46):
dating and miserable and had just broken up
with someone of many years and felt like I
was going on these dates on it.
It was just when internet dating was
starting to be a big thing.
So I felt crazy and I felt like I was
shriveling up because I grew up in
California and all of a sudden I have these
lines on my face.
So all of my worries about?
All of a sudden I'm getting too old, so so
fat temp and crazy raisin we talk about
with like so much love and endearment now.
Hilary Russo (11:09):
Yeah, and that's the humor, right.
I mean we say these silly things like in
the moment it sucked with a capital S, but
as we move through it and we look back on
some of the things we really were upset
about or were hurt about, and it doesn't
take away the upset, it certainly is not
demeaning or lessening someone's upsets or
traumas, but when we look back on those
(11:30):
things, I think that's where the humor is
such an important part of the healing.
Deb Schachter (11:34):
It's sort of the humanity the humor and the
humanity Like, oh God, this poor woman,
whatever her experience, is sitting on the
floor sobbing over 20 pairs of jeans.
It's about so much more than the jeans,
right?
Hilary Russo (11:46):
It also sounds like the name of a band Fat
Temp and the Crazy Raisins.
Deb Schachter (11:52):
Oh my God, I love that, and I know Whitney
will too.
That's great, I love it.
Hilary Russo (11:56):
I think about that myself and I've shared
this many times on HIListically Speaking,
that when I was 14 years old 13, 14, around
that time I actually dealt with some
serious like weight issues and I know back
then I didn't know why, you know the
control, why am I, why am I going to that
direction?
But I actually went to a weight loss camp
(12:19):
and affectionately we called it fat camp,
right.
And then there was a TV show that came out,
a reality show I don't know like 10, 15
years ago, called Fat Camp, and it wound up
being my Fat Camp.
It was my camp, it was the one where I
stayed, yeah, and there were many of those
back in the 80s, right, there were tons of
those camps and they've grown in a way
(12:48):
where they're more of a health and wellness
facility and camp rather than just eat a
piece of toast with cottage cheese and
blueberries and call it a day.
So finding the humor in it is important.
But as we get older, as we learn, as we
have skills, as we get more in touch with
ourselves, I think there's that element and
you and I talked about this before of that
nervous system regulation, knowing what's
(13:09):
showing up when the body is is talking to
you and are you truly listening?
Right, yeah, and so can we.
Can we touch on that a little bit?
Deb Schachter (13:18):
Absolutely.
I guess the first thing that comes to mind
I'm going to bridge it a little bit, if
that's okay is that one of one of our early
tools is really looking at what we call a
rotary.
We live in Boston so we have these crazy
rotaries that go round and round.
So we talk about this idea that if we start,
you know, we label and really get clear
about what might've triggered our
(13:38):
experience.
So if I use that example from before, you
know having dinner maybe with a parent that
that was really difficult.
We start with that experience and we can
actually help people track what their
rotary looks like.
So, have a big experience, have big
feelings very quickly that can move into.
I don't feel good about my body and these
are all the things I'm going to do to fix
it.
So we're really moving around the rotary
(13:59):
and when you do that with people, they're
so blown away because they all have their
own unique rotaries, even though there's so
much universality to that.
So to bring that into what you were asking,
so often what happens is when we have a
relational experience I mean 99%.
We feel of eating disorder, of body image
spikes are related to something relational,
(14:20):
whether it's a micro moment or a bigger
moment, am I going to belong at this party
or feel good about this date?
So as we start to track these things, the
sensations that we feel in our body because
our nervous system is reacting to our
experience both with feelings and
sensations it can go so quickly from
(14:41):
something I feel in my body to something I
feel about my body.
So when people often say things like I
literally feel like I'm gaining weight
sitting here talking to you, my fat, my
fingers look bigger, my, you know butt is
spreading on the chair, whatever it is,
that's likely something really emotional
that's getting expressed through those
(15:02):
sensations and because we obviously all get
these messages about our bodies not being
right and that they need to be fixed, it
becomes this really compelling way to try
and manage that overwhelm of emotions and
sensations.
So that's my, that's my bridge.
I hope that makes sense.
Hilary Russo (15:17):
Perfect, yeah, yeah, and you know, I think
it's really being aware of those sensations
right, because you know, in the nervous
system you're having the autonomic, the
somatic, the, the emotional and the
cognitive side of things, right.
So being aware of where it's coming from
(15:39):
and showing up for you is important because,
yeah, you can sit there and be like, oh my
God, I'm so bloated, I shouldn't have had
that piece of cake.
It's not the cake, right?
Why are we making the cake?
The enemy?
Deb Schachter (15:50):
Totally Well, because it gives us something
to focus on and blame something going right.
And something we can fix.
Right, Right, I mean, I just had this
conversation with somebody yesterday and we
were saying what if what's happening in the
body is really this information that we
need to be able to do whatever we want to
do next?
And what if we can slow that down enough to
(16:11):
really translate it?
So in our book, really starting to look at
the words that people use, because they're
really the words for the nervous system,
right, so it could be buzzy, it could be
tingly, it could be droopy, it could be
scratchy that when you get people to start
to actually describe my belly, my bloated
(16:33):
belly feels like do, do, do, do, do.
And this is where this is one of my
favorite things is starting to see how
these descriptors actually relate to other
contexts in their life that they may not
even realize which is really cool.
Hilary Russo (16:48):
Can.
Deb Schachter (16:48):
I give you an example.
Hilary Russo (16:49):
Yeah, please do.
Deb Schachter (16:50):
Because sometimes I think examples are
helpful.
So I run a group for women over 40 and one
of the women in the group I think you'll
relate to this, I think based on your age
reference, but she was talking about being
14 or whatever, 14, 15, and wanting to look
a certain way in her Sassoon jeans, which
just made me go you just dated us I know
(17:11):
exactly I was like.
I think I remember those.
They were related to the hair products, I
don't even know, anyway, but she was
talking about how she just wanted her body
to look the same and I was like, well, what
does that mean?
So she was describing she kept going with
her arms, like you know, like a column,
like I want.
I don't want there to be any difference, I
want it to be one long line.
And then I asked her what else was
(17:32):
happening in your life at that time?
And that was right, when her mom, who was
already quite mentally ill, really got
dysregulated and her dad had to come in and
actually remove her from the home.
So if you think about the language she's
kept saying, I just want my body to look
the same, I just want all the lines to look
the same.
And I asked her so when you hear about the
(17:53):
same versus different, and what did you
want to be the same?
And she thought, oh my God, like I just
went through the biggest change in my life.
That was terrifying.
So if we think about that language the same
and change starting to get people thinking
about what words they're using, and
especially when it, when it does line up
with these events in our lives that feel so
profound, yeah, okay, so we're talking
(18:14):
about the book as well as part of your
process, and I really want to mention it
because we haven't done it so much.
Hilary Russo (18:20):
Show it up too.
So it's body image inside out, a
revolutionary approach to body image
healing, with Deb Schachter and her
coauthor and very dear friend, whitney Otto,
who is a former Olympic athlete.
Deb Schachter (18:33):
It's a softback and we've got all kinds of
like exercises and things you can do, love
that.
Hilary Russo (18:38):
So it is kind of a workbook and a book.
Deb Schachter (18:41):
Absolutely Love that you can read it either
way, you can read it for content.
But if you want to do the exercises and we
always say, do which ones feel resonate for
you we have like mad libs where you're kind
of like filling in, like if my body were
blah, blah, blah, then I would feel more
blah, blah, blah.
Now you're really dating us.
Sorry, I know I am.
So we've thrown out Sassoon, we've thrown
out mad libs.
Hilary Russo (19:01):
And then, at the end of this, we're going
to have a contest to say how old are both
of us Exactly?
I love my Gen X self Exactly Speaking about
that, you know you're.
You said women over 40.
So we're talking about people who are
perimenopause, menopausal post.
You know where are you seeing that?
Deb Schachter (19:20):
as most of your, the people that are
picking up this book, or I'd say no,
although you know, I think that's a really
important audience and we actually, in the
podcasts that we've been doing, we got so
many requests from particularly dietitians
who work with that age group, because that
is an age where our body obviously maybe
(19:41):
change, is changing in a variety of ways
that don't make sense to us, and so I think
that can really lend itself to having that
important conversation about again what's
happening in our life and how that affects
how we see ourselves, especially when our
bodies are actually changing, whatever that
may be, whether it's weight and size or hot
flashes or whatever it is.
So, yes, yes, yes, that's a great
population, but really one of my favorite
(20:03):
things about this book is anybody can read
it.
We all have feeling, we all have bodies and
we all have feelings about them, and we
have so few places to know how to talk
about them in productive ways.
So when we started, when I started to tell
people about the book like I was getting my
teeth cleaned by my dentist who's, you know,
he's probably in his sixties and he was
like, is it weird that I want to read the
book?
Like is that?
(20:23):
And I was like that's awesome.
And when we actually did a very early
taping for our taping that's dating me to
some video for for an Instagram post.
Whitney has actually has her own podcast
with another Olympic athlete called
Untrained, and we were using her producer
and in the middle of our thing he said can
(20:45):
I talk about?
When I went to LL Bean yesterday and I had
to buy the bigger shorts and they were felt
like a tent but the smaller ones were too
tight and it was so awesome.
We were like, please, can we talk about
your shorts?
This is the work.
So everybody wants to talk about this.
They just don't know how.
Hilary Russo (21:01):
That's such a good way of putting it.
Everyone wants to talk about it, but they
don't know how.
There is no one out there that probably
doesn't struggle in some capacity with
their body image, even an Olympic athlete
at the best form that they are.
I was just watching something the other day
with somebody who was a pageant, you know,
(21:22):
in Miss USA, and a lot of times I think we
think that's the group that's going to be
suffering the most, like, oh, the
supermodels have to eat a carrot a day, or,
you know, those who are Olympic athletes
are on a very strict diet.
But it's like we're human and it's not just.
I don't think anymore.
I think we are now well, not that yes,
we're still human.
What I mean is I don't think it's only
(21:44):
about the outside anymore.
I think people are really in touch with
what it means to live well, optimally,
holistically, whatever the term is you want
to use.
People are more in alignment with that
longevity.
So a book like this is also tapping into
that side of things.
Like you have to be able to have a good
(22:05):
image of who you are and why, and how
you're showing up in this world and how you
want to live well.
But if you're not in a good relationship
with yourself.
Deb Schachter (22:14):
You're just going to keep having that same
cyclical conversation and putting yourself
down exactly, exactly, and that's why we
use the rotary, because we do a second
rotary where we bring in our tools.
We have sort of three muscles which are
mindful awareness, curiosity and compassion.
Those are kind of the body image inside out
muscles, and from there we really build
(22:35):
that out so that when you get to these
moments where these spikes happen, you can
actually start to decode it and ultimately
be more connected to yourself.
And that's really Whitney's a coach,
actually she's an executive coach, and so
she used it, brought in the word resourcing,
which I think is wonderful.
It's like if we can decode what our body
image is saying, then we can start to
(22:56):
really figure out what we actually need.
So that could be anything, that could be a
big fat.
No, because we don't want to go to the you
know, whatever it is PTA event or it might
be.
I need more of something, more more quiet,
more stillness, more nature, more
connection.
So even something as simple as my arms are
(23:16):
should be more toned or something can
actually get us to.
I need more boundaries.
Hilary Russo (23:25):
That's just not always physical.
Deb Schachter (23:27):
Yeah, it's totally not, and it's why I love,
love.
We talk a lot about jealousy and
idealization, and if we can start to lean
into some of those things and actually
again, rather than you shouldn't be jealous,
you're fabulous, but really think who are
you jealous of and why?
Then you can start to really figure out
what is it about their butt or their arms
or their you know thighs that that make
(23:50):
their life the way it is.
What is it about their life?
And you imagine that body gives them that
you actually really want, and it's so often
ease, connection, joy, and that's what we
want to help people work on.
Hilary Russo (24:04):
Yeah, that's great.
Love that so much.
And just for those, as a reminder, deb has
this amazing book she's co-authored with a
dear friend called Body Image Inside Out.
This is a really wonderful companion to
have.
There you go.
You're so good at the Vanna White.
It's a great book to have.
(24:24):
And do you have an audio version?
Deb Schachter (24:27):
We don't, yet we're working on it.
We're working on it we just got asked to
have it translated in Lebanese though,
which I'm so pumped about.
I feel so honored.
But we're working on that, and we do do
workshops right.
We're most focused right now on a big
workshop we're going to be doing in the
early fall for clinicians and anybody who
(24:47):
works with body image, so that could be
personal trainers, uh, you know, physical
therapists, teachers, doctors, um
therapists, nutritionists, that kind of
thing, and then we're I'm sure we'll be
doing more also um in-person and virtual
workshops as well.
Hilary Russo (25:03):
And we'll put all of that in the podcast
notes how to get in touch with you and
Whitney, how to grab this book All of that
will be in the notes of this podcast
episode.
So, and if you're touched, moved and
inspired by this conversation, if this is
something that resonates with you or you're
like, oh, I know somebody who could really
use this conversation, pay it forward,
y'all, like, pay it forward, share it.
(25:24):
Yeah, that's my little Southern.
I live down South for a while, so I have
not gotten rid of the y'all.
But you know, pay it forward, share it.
This is a collective, it's a community
effort what we're doing here on this planet.
So do that.
And then, you know, pick up the book.
So there'll be a lot of opportunities to
see how you can bring this into your life.
(25:45):
And, you know, making one change can make a
difference, one small change making one
change can make a difference, one small
change.
You don't have to do it all, you don't have
to do the mad libs, you don't have to do
any of the exercises.
You can read it, you can jump around, right,
it's a book, you can jump around Totally.
Deb Schachter (25:58):
You can read what resonates for you.
But I always say to people if you want to
do one thing, which is really at the core
of our work, it's just starting to notice
when your body image gets louder.
So it's going from I look like shit today.
I hate the way I look.
I'm so fill in the blank to wow.
My body image is really loud today.
(26:19):
The things I'm saying to myself are really
nasty.
That's a huge jump and a real opportunity
to start to practice, just starting to
track your body image and really start to
think of it, almost like you're tracking
the weather, and start to move one step
away from your body image.
So that's what I always give when I give
one nugget, that's the one.
Hilary Russo (26:37):
That's a good one too, because negative
self talk is so big.
I mean, look our brains.
As you know, as a therapist and being in
the space as well, the brain loves to go to
the negative.
It is a negative Nelly.
That's what keeps us alive and safe.
So if we can just make one small change on
how we're talking to ourselves like I hate
my body, I feel fat too I'm working on
(26:59):
making a positive change in the right
direction.
That in itself has the same outcome, just a
different message.
Deb Schachter (27:06):
Yeah, totally, and just saying, wow, it's
really loud today.
My body image is loud today.
That is very different.
Yeah, and accepting it.
I love that.
The, the, it's very loud today, it's just
(27:27):
being aware and yeah, definitely.
Hilary Russo (27:30):
So where would you like to see things go
with this book, with the whole idea?
Deb Schachter (27:34):
of what you're doing Like what's?
Hilary Russo (27:36):
what's your view on how you see things
going forward?
Deb Schachter (27:39):
Oh, I love that, so I think our fantasy
would be.
I don't know if you know Dr Becky.
She's a great parenting coach.
Hilary Russo (27:46):
Do you?
Deb Schachter (27:46):
know her at all.
I do not.
Oh my gosh, you got to check her out.
She's amazing, she's wonderful.
She just has these great nuggets that are
just so accessible.
So she's really taught.
She's really taught the different, a
different language for how you relate to
your kids.
Very similar, lots of curiosity.
So for us it's the same thing.
It's like what if, when you go to the
(28:07):
doctor and you were to say my body image is
really loud and they'd say so, what's going
on in your life?
Why do you think that might be Like people
starting to to share that perspective?
That body image has a much greater function
and that negative body image is I kind of
describe it like an indicator light on our
car, like you know windshield, wiper, fluid
(28:27):
and low battery charge that it's just an
indicator light that something else is
happening.
So if we could have that in more settings
teachers, pts you know so many people that
come face to face with this and don't know
how to respond so that people have more
skillful ways to say that's usually a sign
that something else is happening in your
life.
I wonder what that might be.
Maybe that's something you can work on,
(28:48):
whether it's in your own therapy or journal
or whatever, but starting to really build a
practice of noticing when your body image
gets louder and really trusting and
believing, just like a headache, that it's
trying to tell you something but there's
something else that's that's bumping it up
and that that's an opportunity to to lean
in.
Hilary Russo (29:05):
Love that Okay.
Deb Schachter (29:07):
Teachers.
I would love it to be more in schools.
We're really trying to get it to counselors
at schools, places where this stuff is
popping up everywhere.
Hilary Russo (29:15):
There is always room for improvement and
growth, right For sure.
Tree never stops growing.
Why should we?
So?
Yeah, I love that, so is there anything
else you want to share that we haven't
covered, because I'm going to play a little
game with you, but I want to give you an
opportunity that maybe I haven't tapped on,
something that you'd really like to hit.
Deb Schachter (29:37):
The only other thing I guess I would say is
that the biggest aha in the book was
chapter five.
So we chapter four is was this notion of we
carry our stories in our bodies, as you
were just describing our body image is the
longest relationship.
I'm sorry.
Our body is the longest relationship we'll
ever have, right?
The?
longest relationship we'll ever have is
with our own body.
(29:57):
So we, you know we're writing all about how
it holds our story and all this like
somatic stuff.
And somewhere in the middle I texted
Whitney and I was like, oh my God, chapter
four is going to have a baby.
It's definitely another chapter coming
through and it's become really the seminal
workshop.
Chapter.
Workshop kind of focus is this idea that
body image and relationships there's a huge
(30:19):
interplay there, that that's really
everything.
So really empowering people to get curious
about what happens in our body image, in
relationships, both historically in terms
of how we were mirrored, what was reflected
back to us, maybe not even related to our
body image, but what we took in when we
were young, about who we were, what we were
capable of, what our strengths and
weaknesses were, what we might be needed to
(30:41):
be more of or less of, to stay connected,
as you said, survival, and then how that
can also inform, ultimately inform how we
see our bodies and how changing our bodies
becomes a tempting way to stay more
connected and, ultimately, to really notice.
In the moment when you leave, like what you
were saying, I feel like all of a sudden my
stomach's so bloated when we leave, an
(31:02):
experience where, all of a sudden, we're
focused on our body.
Why do I?
What do I feel so full of?
What am I really holding inside?
Maybe it's unexpressed anger, maybe it's
hurt, you know, really starting to track
the interplay between our relationships,
both historically and in current day, and
really notice how that affects our body
image, cause that's ultimately I we really
believe, that's that's where all the gold
(31:24):
is, is in that interplay.
Hilary Russo (31:26):
Love that.
How difficult was it to write a book with
someone else?
Like, how did you divide those duties with
Whitney?
Deb Schachter (31:32):
Oh, it's such a great question.
We both feel so unclear about how any of
this happened.
At this point we're both our heads are
still spinning.
But what was so cool, honestly, was that so
much of the nature of it, the flow of it
made sense, but we learned so much more
about what we knew as we wrote, so we
really wrote most of it together, about
what we knew as we wrote, so we really
wrote most of it together.
I mean, there were truly, I think maybe
(31:53):
hundreds of iterations of edits.
Whitney's husband is actually a CBT expert
and author, so he was amazing.
My husband is a scientist but an excellent
punctuation master, so we had lots of eyes
on it.
But really the actual content more.
I think the coolest part was that all these
things came out that we didn't know existed,
and how to say, how do you decode, but how
(32:14):
do you actually break that down in an
exercise.
But it really was very collaborative.
We did very little.
I mean we did a lot independently once it
was down, but all the editing, but really
we wrote it together and Whitney really
brought in this beautiful piece at the end
around the resourcing, I think we didn't
know exactly where we'd land and it
ultimately was like what do you do now that
you have all this information?
(32:35):
And those last couple chapters are really
her swan song.
They're beautiful and really using a lot of
different tactics to get more.
How do we learn how to resonate and what
resonates for our body?
And, as Mary Oliver says, let the soft
animal body which we always love, love what
it loves.
You know, how do we really let our animal
body inside kind of lead us to what our
(32:56):
truth is?
So, um, anyway.
So we really it was very collaborative, um,
not always easy, but very collaborative in
terms of really what we wanted to bring to
the world.
Hilary Russo (33:05):
Yeah, to work well together.
It was meant to be.
I love that about the soft body inside.
Yeah, isn't that beautiful.
Let love that about the soft body inside.
Yeah, isn't that beautiful.
Let the let the soft animal body of your,
let the soft animal body love what it loves.
I love that quote.
Yeah, so like I felt that, like I'm like,
yeah, like really giving it some nurturing.
(33:26):
How often do we nurture ourselves?
Look that I mean it's that's part of the
work I do is the self nurturing approach
when I'm working as a havening practitioner,
but it makes I'm like thinking about that
so helpful when you can say oh, I feel this,
so what do I need?
Deb Schachter (33:40):
what needs nurturing?
What?
Hilary Russo (33:42):
needs.
I feel so depleted.
Deb Schachter (33:44):
After you know this really hard day at work
where I'd have fire 10 people or something.
What do I need?
What do I need to take in?
What do I need?
Maybe it's to just release whatever.
Hilary Russo (33:55):
So yeah, yeah, learning.
Deb Schachter (33:57):
That is so pretty.
Hilary Russo (33:58):
I love that.
That's a great way to to lead into the next
thing, but actually that's a good way to
close this.
But I still got something for you.
Um, I play a little game with my guests
called Brain Candy.
It is a rapid fire game, meaning that I've
been writing down words that Deb has been
saying during this conversation.
(34:18):
I'm going to throw one word out at you that
you said.
I want you to come back and say the first
word that comes to mind.
Deb Schachter (34:24):
A little word, sort of like free
association.
Yeah, exactly what it is.
Hilary Russo (34:27):
It's a word association game, so I'll throw
the word out.
You come back, have a little brain candy
fun, you ready.
Deb Schachter (34:40):
Okay, I'm ready.
Okay, here we go.
Self-talk, self-listen, compassion,
softness, resilience.
Hilary Russo (34:45):
Breath.
Relationship To Regulation.
Relationship Two Regulation Rhythm,
mindfulness, spaciousness, resourcing,
listening, body Image Two words I know.
Deb Schachter (35:05):
Inside out Body Self.
Hilary Russo (35:11):
Multidimensional.
Oh, I like that.
Yeah, it definitely is.
And since body self was one word.
Deb Schachter (35:20):
That was what we originally called
ourselves before the body image inside out.
So we realized that was a verb to turn our
body inside out.
We were the body self.
Which is this idea that it's such a
multi-dimensional experience of body image
that there are all these dimensions
happening in there.
Hilary Russo (35:33):
It's not just, you know, screen or
billboard or tv I have one more that I'm
gonna throw out at you.
Deb Schachter (35:40):
It's two words okay, because we got to end
with a little humor oh gosh okay um, crazy
raisin.
Hilary Russo (35:46):
Hmm, fat temp.
Deb Schachter (35:49):
Like you go right, you're throwing it back
to whitney yeah, crazy raisin, and also, I
would say, I guess, compassion.
God bless her 32 year old heart if I could
tell her, you know, 25 years later she was
gonna write a book yeah what would you tell
yourself?
Hilary Russo (36:06):
what would you tell yourself, deb?
You're gonna get me to cry now, then my
work here is done.
Deb Schachter (36:14):
That's what I say all the time.
You're going to write a book about crazy
raising.
You're going to write a book about how
scary it is to be single at 32 and all your
friends are dating and you're actually
going to make it to 41 and still be single,
and then you're going to meet this amazing
human.
So it's all going to be okay.
Hilary Russo (36:30):
That checks all the T's and the I's Exactly.
Oh, I love that.
That's so great.
Thank you so much for being here.
Is there anything that you would want to
share with those who are tuning in?
Deb Schachter (36:43):
God, I think you covered it so beautifully.
I feel so lucky.
I feel like one of the challenges in this
is sort of some of it can feel, you know,
like you're sort of saying the same things
over and over, and I feel like the way you
ask questions today was just really
fantastic and really got us talking about a
lot of things that I don't get to talk
about as much.
So I really appreciate your, your lens on
all of it.
So I think I think we covered it.
Hilary Russo (37:04):
I appreciate that I always say and people
who tune into the show know that I feel
like every person I have on this show is
like a masterclass for me too.
Deb Schachter (37:12):
You know, I don't know everything Right.
Hilary Russo (37:15):
And so I sit here with amazing guests like
yourself and I think, gosh, I just want to
hang with her.
I gotcha, I gotta get up to Boston.
Yeah, totally, it's a conversation more
than anything.
We're human beings.
We have to have these open conversations
and I'm really glad you felt that way.
Deb Schachter (37:31):
But you asked great questions.
You really did Thank you so much.
Hilary Russo (37:35):
My pleasure, pleasure having you here.
Thank you.
Deb Schachter (37:38):
Thank you so much.
Hilary Russo (37:39):
All right, my friend, if you find that this
conversation has been helpful, if you know
somebody who might find it valuable,
consider paying it forward, passing it
along.
You know, do yourself a favor, make sure
that you are downloading HIListically
Speaking, so that you have these episodes
when you need them the most.
Pay it forward, leave a rating, a review.
It's always appreciated.
(38:01):
And you know I'm going to connect you with
Deb.
So I promise you that if you are interested
in getting in touch with her or connecting
with her, or even grabbing the book Body
Image Inside Out, a book that she co-wrote
with her dear friend and former Olympian,
Whitney Otto, I'm going to put that all in
the notes of this podcast so you don't have
to search for it.
You can just click the button, grab the
(38:21):
book, get in touch with her, follow her and
make that connection right, because it's
all about connection.
We also talked about self-regulation during
this conversation, and you know that is my
jam, so I want you to check out one of my
Havening Happy Hours.
Come and join me live online.
I do these every month.
It's a chance to self-regulate and
self-soothe, for self-care, with
(38:42):
self-havening and neuroscience on your side.
I welcome you and I would love to see you
there, and I think the best way to close
this is to mention part of that poem by
Mary Oliver that Deb mentioned.
It's called Wild Geese, and I leave you
with this.
You don't have to be good, you don't have
to walk on your knees for hundreds of miles
(39:05):
through the desert, repenting.
You only have to let the soft animal of
your body love what it loves.
How about that?
(39:26):
So, on that note, know that I love you, I
believe in you and I'm sending hugs, your
mountains in her eyes.
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