May 7, 2025 • 40 mins
What if seven simple words could change the way we connect with others on the path to peace? In this powerful episode of HIListically Speaking, Hilary Russo sits down with James Twyman, a New York Times Best-Selling Author (The Moses Code), spiritual teacher, and the “Peace Troubadour” to explore how one profound phrase. “I Don’t Know, Maybe, I Love You.” Now the title of his latest book, this open-hearted reply sparked a movement towards healing our global village and even the most divided, intimate relationships. From confronting polarization in today’s world to embracing curiosity over certainty, James, who is also an Episcopal Priest and founder of the Namaste Village spiritual community in Mexico, shares personal stories, spiritual insights, and his mission to De-Polarize a culture stuck in conflict. Together, we discuss the importance of compassion, the courage to engage with opposing perspectives, and the magic that happens when we prioritize love over being right. Tune in and discover how peace begins with one brave, honest conversation at a time.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
James Twyman (00:02):
Beyond the world of duality, there is an
experience that I can access right now that
has nothing to do with this world.
So will there ever be a time when there are
no wars, no conflicts?
Probably not, but there can be that in my
mind.
Hilary Russo (00:18):
What if kind words can end an argument or
diffuse an upset in a matter with somebody
else?
So, in this world where political strife
and social unrest is really pulling people
apart, the need for solutions is urgent.
How do we find ways to bridge these divides
or heal fractured relationships and have a
(00:40):
better understanding in such a polarized
time?
I want you to brace yourself, because a
plan for peace is about to surround you
like a warm blanket.
For over three decades, he has been a
global force for peace, guiding millions
through synchronized meditations, spreading
(01:01):
messages of unity.
As a New York Times bestselling author, he
has over 24 books, including the Moses Code,
and he's a musician with 22 albums to his
name.
James Twyman, the peace troubadour.
You have touched so many lives around the
world, but now you are here.
You're tackling one of the greatest
(01:21):
challenges we face today the depolarization
that's fracturing families, businesses and
really entire nations.
And your latest book and I'm going to say
it like I would say it to somebody else I
don't know, maybe I love you offers more
than just a call to awareness.
It's really a movement to bring people
(01:42):
together.
It is such an honor to have you on
HIListically Speaking.
It is a gift, and thank you for being here
on the show.
James Twyman (01:49):
Well, thank you, Hilary.
It's an honor for me to be able to share
and to be with you and everyone on this
beautiful program.
Hilary Russo (01:56):
So first I want to start.
Did I say the book correctly?
Because to me it seemed like a statement to
break that wall between somebody else when
you're having the relationship, when you're
having the conversation.
James Twyman (02:06):
You said it exactly exactly as it was said
originally.
In fact, I'll tell you the story of how it
all happened.
I was talking to my younger brother on the
phone.
Now, as younger brothers can sometimes be,
he always wants to prove himself and beat
me at whatever it is we're playing, whether
it's a game of basketball or an argument,
(02:28):
and he tends to be better informed than me
on a lot of things.
So we were talking and we do also tend to
have different sides of the argument and I
realized that he was winning.
So I just said Kenny, I don't know, maybe I
love you.
(02:48):
And the argument just ended right there,
and I realized in that moment that
something magical had just happened when I
didn't defend myself and I didn't assert
myself and try and make him wrong, a space
opened where we could come together rather
than be pushed further apart.
And isn't that the issue that we're facing
(03:10):
so often today In our need to be right, or
what I like to call the pandemic of being
right?
This is, I think, the real core In
enforcing this.
We push each other away rather than trying
to find the commonality, and three simple
statements I don't know, maybe I love you
can be a beginning to bringing not only a
(03:34):
couple of people together, but the whole
world.
Hilary Russo (03:37):
Yeah, and I'm curious in that moment, when
you had that conversation with Kenny, did
you know that there was a book in what you
stated?
I mean, where, at that point, did it happen?
James Twyman (03:49):
I did not.
In fact, I was determined not to write a
book.
I'd written 23 books at that point and I
was just kind of finished, not really
wanting to do all the work.
I figured I had said what I had wanted to
say.
And then what happened?
(04:09):
Back in September I was on a concert tour
on the East Coast and I drove from Portland,
oregon, all the way to the East Coast and I
was up in northern New Hampshire with a
friend of mine who was sponsoring an event
I was doing, and that night he and his wife
and I went out to dinner and I didn't
realize that his wife owned a small
(04:31):
publishing company, and so we were chatting
and I said to her I don't intend to write
any more books, but if I did, this is the
one I would write.
And I told her about this and she said if
you write that book, I will publish it, and
that that the interest was enough to spark
(04:51):
me and get me moving.
I think I started writing that night along
the East Coast and then back to Portland,
as I talk to people about what's happening
in their lives, their opinions, about
what's happening in the country, in the
world, and honoring and respecting other
people, regardless of whether they agree
with me or don't.
(05:31):
I could feel something begin to open and I
realized that this is an important book.
This is an important movement, because I
realized right away that this is not just
here's the book.
It's not just a book to read, but it's a
movement to join.
And if we can get thousands or even
millions of people saying I'm going to be a
depolarizing agent, I'm going to focus my
(05:51):
attention on bringing people back together,
if enough of us do that, then the solution
will occur naturally and on its own.
So that's what I'm hoping this book will do
is begin that conversation its own.
Hilary Russo (06:05):
So that's what I'm hoping this book will do
is begin that conversation.
And what can?
Is the book kind of like a companion guide
where you follow along, Because obviously
the book just came out.
I have not had a chance to read it, but
just in knowing it and hearing about it and
learning about it from what I've read about
you and knowing who you are, I can imagine
it's like having that companion by your
(06:26):
side.
James Twyman (06:27):
It is.
I love to write stories and when I thought
about writing this as just a strict
nonfiction how-to book, it didn't excite me.
But when I was driving along the East Coast
and then all the way back to Oregon in my
van, I started having conversations with
(06:48):
people and I realized that it's in the
interactions where the magic happens.
One example would be when I was in New
Jersey, where you are now.
I was visiting probably my dearest friend,
someone I've known for 30 years, someone
who, if you ask anyone who knows her, they
will tell you that she's the holiest, most
(07:10):
loving person they've ever known.
And yet in sitting down with her, I
realized that she was a MAGA enthusiast and
I was shocked by that.
You can probably tell just from that that I
am not a MAGA enthusiast.
And because I love her so much, I listened
(07:31):
to her.
I didn't immediately jump in and say how in
the world could someone as loving as you
and then go on.
Instead, I just held still and held respect
and listened to her perspective and
realized that it's not about me agreeing
with her, but it's about us holding space
(07:53):
for the other to feel respected.
Something that is so simple, something that
we were all taught in kindergarten and yet
seems to have been thrown out the window so
often today.
So, with that story and many others, there
was another case where I visited a couple
of friends in Maine, two very dear friends,
(08:15):
very spiritual people and they were asking
the question this is right before the
election, by the way when I was writing the
book.
So we didn't know what was going to happen.
And my friend, bill, asked how would a sage
vote?
If a sage or an enlightened being were to
step into the voting booth, how would they
vote?
(08:35):
And that was an interesting question.
And I think the answer is they would listen
in the moment.
They would not have all of the preconceived
ideas and judgments, they would simply hold
still and listen and follow the inspiration
that they receive.
So all of these interactions, whether they
be people who agree with me or people who
(08:56):
didn't agree with me, but we chose to
listen to one another, to respect one
another.
I chose to say to my friend, for example I
don't know, maybe all I know is I love you.
That was enough to open up the space,
because the truth is, Hilary, and I'm sure
you know this, I don't know and you don't
(09:17):
know for sure.
None of us know for sure anything.
We have our beliefs, we have our opinions,
and that's great.
But I don't know for sure what needs to
happen.
Maybe there's something I'm going to learn
from you that can help me go deeper.
Hilary Russo (09:35):
All I know for sure is that there needs to
be a foundation of love present, otherwise
we go nowhere and it's such a simple
(09:58):
formula, but it really works about how that
very short dialogue and statement can
diffuse a situation, and I felt it even
though you weren't specifically talking to
me in response to something I said, and I
think that's the big distinction, isn't it?
It's responding rather than reacting.
(10:20):
Right.
There's really something that there's a
difference there.
And, look, I would imagine those listening
and tuning in or even watching on YouTube.
There are people in your life that you love,
that do not agree with your beliefs on
certain things, who you voted for.
All of these things are going to come into
your life and it's learning how to be okay,
(10:45):
not having to be understood right and not
being agreed with all the time.
You know yeah, it's such a simple statement.
James Twyman (10:56):
It really is so simple.
Hilary Russo (10:58):
So simple.
So where do you go with that Once you say
that, and what if there is conflict?
Like what if it's heated and that doesn't
diffuse the situation?
James Twyman (11:10):
Well, it may not always be diffused.
I know that it's up to me and not you.
It's not about me teaching someone else
what they should do or say or how they
should think.
It's about me watching my own mind,
noticing when I have polarizing thoughts or
when I want to make someone wrong.
(11:31):
Even if I know they are wrong, right Still.
It's about respect and opening up a space
of curiosity, to be curious.
Well, how did you come to that belief?
What happened in your life that led you to
believe that, if I can ask questions
instead of reacting once again, responding
(11:54):
instead of reacting a dialogue happens so
often.
There's no dialogue, there's just.
I believe this and you believe that I'm
right.
Right, you're wrong.
We either go like this or we go like that.
We we fight or we separate, but we don't
get anywhere.
And and what we need today is to move in a
(12:15):
positive direction because, as we all know,
we are moving in such a negative, such a
divisive direction that it's becoming very,
very dangerous for many, many people.
And it's up to me, even in a situation like
you mentioned, where it can become very
difficult.
I remember when I was driving out east to
(12:36):
go on this tour, I stopped in Minneapolis,
where my father lives, and spent a few days
with him.
Well, it would be hard to be more different
than my father and I in almost everything
that we believe or any position that we
hold, and it was hard.
It was really hard for me to listen to him
(12:58):
and his beliefs and I wanted to get in
there and I wanted to teach him or to
change him.
To get in there and I wanted to teach him
or to change him.
But I thought, okay, if I'm going to do
this, I need to begin where it's closest.
I need to begin with my own family, and
that meant just listening to my father,
appreciating my father and not trying to
(13:19):
change him.
You know he sits, you know, in his chair
watching a certain news channel all day
long, so it's no surprise that he would be.
You know, all of these ideas would be
filtered through his mind, so I have to
have some compassion for that.
Once again, it's about me doing the work,
not expecting someone else to do the work.
(13:40):
If I'm going to be a depolarizing agent, it
has to start and end in one place, which is
my own mind and my own willingness to be
curious about what you think.
Hilary Russo (13:53):
Do you think that goes back to feeling
unsafe?
Oh sure, knowing that somebody so close to
you you know a parent, you know that's the
closest thing to you that they're feeling
something that goes back to a feeling of
safety.
James Twyman (14:07):
Yeah, I think that's true, and in any
disagreement is, if we all want to be right,
we all want to think that that our position
is the correct position, whether it is or
whether it isn't.
The thing that is frustrating to me,
however, is when.
Okay, so I am an Episcopal priest, as you
(14:29):
know, and so I take literally the things
that Jesus asked us to do and the way he
asked us to live, and so when people call
themselves a Christian and they claim that,
but do the exact opposite, that's
frustrating to me.
Now, the first thing I have to do is to
(14:51):
realize that there is a shadow here that
I'm not looking at.
How do I do the opposite?
How am I not willing to live this?
I know that when I have a strong reaction
to something, there's a lesson for me, a
healing for me.
So that's always the first place.
(15:12):
That's where we begin is what do I have to
learn here?
If I'm being frustrated by people who claim
one thing and do another, how am I doing
that and how can I heal that first, so that
when I encounter those people, I'm not
going to have a reactionary opinion, I'm
going to have a compassionate way of
holding them, so that maybe we can come
(15:34):
together in ways that would have been
impossible before.
Hilary Russo (15:37):
Yeah, so how did that resolve with dad?
James Twyman (15:40):
Well, I just got off the phone with him
right before the interview and it's good.
Yeah, yes, we do avoid certain topics.
That's what we sometimes have to do, and
that's just so that we can remember that
it's not about our opinions.
It's about the fact that we love each other,
and sometimes we have to be selective about
(16:02):
what we share or the subjects that we cross,
because if we're not careful we're going to
get into dicey territory, where the work
gets a little bit harder.
So when I talk to my father, I just
remember that I love him and he loves me,
and it doesn't matter if we agree or don't
agree.
(16:23):
We just need to hold that space and let
that love expand so that the differences
don't mean as much as we think they do.
Hilary Russo (16:30):
I think there's a point where in this
modern day and time, especially the digital
age, we are overwhelmed with so much
information.
We're watching television, we're swiping
our phones, we're going to hear opinions,
whether they are far to the left or the
right.
Nothing too drastic to either side is good.
(16:50):
But in that moment, where do we come back
to center and say to ourselves first, it's
okay that I don't know, I'm not in danger,
I love this person and that's what matters
most, right.
James Twyman (17:07):
Exactly, that's what matters most.
Hilary Russo (17:10):
Yeah, and the other thing is, I feel, going
back to the digital age, there was a time
when we didn't really talk about religion
and politics like we do now, almost like
we're opening our diaries and just
everything's just coming out and it's like
us versus them.
You know, how do you deal with that as
someone who is somebody that people come to
(17:32):
in the spiritual and religious world?
How do you approach that?
James Twyman (17:38):
Well, I remember, first of all, that, in
this time that we find ourselves in, we all
live in very small echo chambers and
everything we believe is echoing back at us,
for example, in our social media.
It watches us and it sees what we click on
(18:00):
to what we like, and then it keeps feeding
that very thing to us, and when that
happens, it reinforces this idea that I am
right about my beliefs, because everyone
else is telling me I'm right because of
these algorithms, and so the pandemic of
being right, you know, becomes like
(18:21):
concrete.
I must be right because the people that I
listen to agree with me.
But the reason all these people agree with
me is because it's getting filtered through
my beliefs and it's keeping out anything
that's different, anything that will give
me a better, more inclusive view of what's
(18:42):
going on, and sometimes that means seeking
out or listening to some of the people or,
you know, whether it be online or in
broadcast, to the people.
That may not always give us the exact
answer that we want, maybe a different
(19:05):
perspective and to not necessarily agree
with it, but to be open.
Once again, I don't know, maybe I love you,
to always keep that loving heart open so
that I can hear, I can be curious, I can
listen rather than attack when someone
disagrees with me.
(19:26):
I mean, we have become so polarized and
this is why a movement is needed today.
We have become so polarized and this is why
a movement is needed today.
We need people who commit themselves to
saying I want to be part of this.
So what I suggest?
(19:47):
Obviously you know.
I hope people read the book, because I
think it does have a lot of fun stories in
it and ways that we can do that.
But, more important, I invite people to go
to the website, which is de-polarizecom,
where we're going to have trainings, we're
going to have ways of people beginning to
interact together so that we can really
start a movement and not just have
individuals, but to have some cohesive
(20:08):
element where people can come together and
work together and achieve what may seem
impossible together Peace in a level that
we can't even imagine right now.
Hilary Russo (20:19):
So I just want to remind folks.
Father James Twyman, you are an Episcopal
priest.
I do want to give you a give moment to just
share that.
But also, if you're interested in his book,
it is called I don't know, maybe I love you
and also we will drop information on your
(20:41):
website that depolarized.
Is that what it is?
Depolarizedcom.
James Twyman (20:45):
D-polarizedcom.
Hilary Russo (20:47):
Okay, we'll put that in the notes as well,
as well as a link to the book which just
came out.
What is your hope for this book Like?
What is the true vision you see?
James Twyman (21:00):
Good question.
Yeah, I remember back in the day there was
always so much focus on getting on the list,
making sure you can put bestseller behind
the title and a lot of that also.
There was a certain keeping up with the
Joneses.
You know, you know all of the other authors
(21:20):
and you want to make sure you're in sitting
at the cool table in the high school
cafeteria.
That's almost what it's like.
Luckily, I've given up on all of that.
That's all gone.
Hilary Russo (21:32):
Did that happen?
Did giving up on it happen after you became
a New York Times bestselling author?
Easy to say, when you have that.
James Twyman (21:40):
Maybe, maybe, good point.
A friend of mine yesterday sent me an email.
He said remember, this is not a sprint,
it's a marathon.
So it's not just about how many books you
sell the first week, because if you're
trying to get on, say, the New York Times
best seller list, it's all about what you
(22:00):
sell in a given week.
So a lot of focus goes into that.
But really starting a movement, especially
like this one, it's a slow process and I am
much more interested in that than I am in
just a quick flash in the pan.
(22:21):
I'll be doing many more interviews like
this one.
I'll hopefully be speaking to many other
people about this and hopefully the book is
going to begin to get some attention,
because the need is so great.
I think everyone agrees with this, no
matter what side we're on.
We've got to find a way to come together
here or we're in big trouble, because if we
(22:41):
keep moving in that you know, opposite
direction, it's like a rubber band.
The tension of the rubber band is greatest
right before it snaps.
Now here's the thing, Hilary, maybe it
needs to snap, I don't know.
Maybe I don't know, maybe Maybe something
has to happen that's very dramatic in order
to catch our attention.
(23:03):
Unfortunately, this is how human beings
tend to operate it's only when we have to
look at something that we actually do look
at something.
So this is why it helps me to stay open and
let go of my judgment say about what's
happening politically right now.
It would be easy for me to say that's wrong,
(23:25):
that shouldn't happen, but the truth is I
don't know what needs to happen.
I have my opinion, you have your opinion.
We have whatever compassionate response
know what needs to happen.
I have my opinion, you have your opinion.
We have whatever compassionate response we
believe needs to happen.
But maybe something new and different is in
store and maybe it will be brought about
through some difficult happening.
Hilary Russo (23:46):
I don't know, but I'm open to that and this
book I think is is hopefully going to be
part of a much larger awakening, a movement
where people begin talking about this more
and realizing that they can have an impact,
that they can help change this from the
inside out I will say, when this first came
(24:08):
into my space, I was just taken by the
title, because I saw the words I don't know,
which many of us know, we don't know and we
always question things, but it was the I
love you that really pulled me in, because
it's the desire to want to feel accepted
and validated and loved, right.
(24:28):
So hopefully that title alone, before
people even know what this is about, could
make that shift, you know.
So a question I have for you, and thank you
for sharing everything you've shared so far.
You have your Namaste Village down in
Mexico.
You travel around the world, you play your
(24:50):
music, the piece Trour I love that title,
by the way and there's so many different
sides to who you are.
But how did the faith side come into your
space when to make that powerful choice to
become a priest?
Where did that happen, and has it always
been like that?
James Twyman (25:10):
I think it's always been like that.
I was raised in a very Catholic family and
I can remember being a very young boy and
being an altar boy and feeling something so
deep that I cannot even speak about it.
There was a resonance or a frequency that
was vibrating and being raised the way I
(25:33):
was, that just meant you were supposed to
be a priest.
So when I was 18, right after high school,
I joined the Franciscans and I thought that
was my path.
But I wasn't ready so I left, continued to
live a very spiritual life, but it opened
up.
I began to get much more into metaphysical
(25:53):
teachings and A Course in Miracles and go
into unity churches, and it really expanded
my horizon.
However, at the same time I always did feel
a resonance with what I'll call the mother
church.
From a Christian perspective, that would be
(26:14):
my Catholic upbringing, or now the
Episcopalian, which is so close to the
Catholic.
But I've also always been very
interreligious.
So that started back in 1994 when a friend
of mine gave me a sheet of paper that had
the peace prayers from the 12 major
religions of the world on them and I picked
(26:36):
up my guitar and just began to play what I
was hearing and within one hour, I put all
12 of the prayers to music and I knew from
that moment on that this would form the
foundation of my life.
I started being called the peace troubadour
and traveling to countries that were at war
or conflict and sharing these prayers in
(26:58):
this concert, and so that opened up a whole
nother realm.
And then, of course, seven years ago seven
and a half years ago founding this village
in Mexico, namaste Village.
That has been just a truly blessed thing.
We have 40 houses or apartments.
They're almost always full.
(27:18):
It's an inter-spiritual community, so we
have people who are Buddhist, jewish, hindu,
you name it.
We got it all, so it makes it very unique.
And yet here I am now, back in Portland,
and I'm focusing more on my Franciscan
calling.
Many Episcopalians and Anglicans don't know
(27:40):
that there are orders like the Franciscan
order within the Episcopal Church as well.
So I'm a professed member of an Episcopal
Franciscan order, because Francis, 800
years ago, encountered so many of the
things we're talking about here today.
He lived in a very polarized time and yet
(28:01):
his voice and his call to simply live this
and not use words, as much as the vibration.
In fact, my favorite quote from Francis is
when he said, our only job is to teach the
gospel wherever we go, but only when
necessary to use words.
(28:23):
To me, that's what this is all about.
It's also what this book is about.
It's about the frequency, the willingness
to enter into every interaction with
curiosity and openness, and maybe, if we do
that, a new renaissance will be born.
When Francis was alive 800 years ago, it
was the end of the dark ages.
(28:44):
Maybe this is the end of a dark age right
now.
Maybe we're coming into a time of great
light.
As Francis inspired then, maybe we can
inspire that today, where we look back at
this time, even a few years from now, and
say it's amazing how things have changed
and how close together we are now.
Hilary Russo (29:05):
Wouldn't that be something?
Wouldn't that be something and just
thinking about that from a perspective of
curiosity.
I don't know, maybe right, it just opens
the mind to just thinking, taking it the
positive way, where we're conditioned to go
to the negative, it's easier.
(29:26):
We have a lazy brain.
It needs to feel safe and protected.
That's how it does that.
But what if we are retraining our brain to
go in the direction of curiosity and an
inquisitive nature and the possibility that
everything's going to be okay?
but let's come from a space of, of
nurturing and caring and peace and love,
(29:47):
and you know you're going to have the
people out there that are like this isn't
Woodstock y'all, but why not?
Why can like this isn't Woodstock y'all,
but why not?
Why can't it be a global Woodstock?
Why can't we do that with the informed
state that we have and the education and
going back to the most simplistic place of
just being a human being?
That's right, right.
(30:08):
I think we've lost sight of that.
James Twyman (30:09):
Oh yeah, you know, these are such simple
ideas.
Once again, we learned most of a force in
the middle that says nope, this is where
it's happening, this is the heart, this is
(30:41):
where we can heal.
We're not going to heal by asserting our
rightness, because all that does is assert
someone else's wrongness and we just get
pushed further and further apart else's
wrongness, and we just get pushed further
and further apart.
So it takes a committed group of people,
even if it's a small group.
Who is it?
Wasn't it Margaret Mead who said never
think that a small, dedicated group of
(31:04):
people can change the world?
In fact, it's the only thing that ever has.
Maybe that's what we need to just even have
a small group of people who say I am
committed to this.
Here's something that's interesting that
shows how quickly this can happen.
That's what we need to just even have a
small group of people who say I am
committed to this.
Here's something that's interesting that
shows how quickly this can happen.
I mentioned St Francis of Assisi, who lived
800 years ago.
(31:24):
And Francis, all he did was he didn't try
and start an order or a movement, he just
said I want to live this to the highest
degree possible.
That became magnetic and it began
attracting first men to join him.
And then, when Claire decided that she was
going to leave probably the wealthiest,
(31:46):
most noble family in Assisi and join women,
began to be magnetized toward her.
So the first order of Franciscans are the
priests and brothers.
The second order are what they call the
poor Clares, the order that Claire started.
But then there was the third order.
Francis started an order of laypeople who
(32:07):
wanted to be able to live this according to
their own life, you know, with families and
jobs, but to somehow live this in an
authentic way.
One of the things that they had to commit
to was that they would never bear arms.
Right by the time Francis died, a quarter
of all of Europe were third order
(32:29):
Franciscans, a quarter within 20 years,
maybe less.
Right To the point that the feudal system
which was always warring kingdom against
kingdom, city against city, fell apart
because they could no longer raise an army
because there were so many people who had
(32:49):
taken vows of nonviolence.
So if we can do the same, if we can all
take the vows of depolarization and say I
am going to be an active depolarizer, maybe
the same thing can happen where.
It's not that we're trying to change things.
The structure just falls apart because the
support, the foundation of it all, is no
(33:11):
longer there.
Hilary Russo (33:12):
Maybe that could happen in our own lifetime.
Do you think world peace is possible?
James Twyman (33:18):
that's a good question.
We could talk about that a lot, but what
I'll say?
If we want to get metaphysical and I know
that's a lot of what your show is all about
the answer would be no, because this, this
world, is where we work stuff out.
Okay, this is where we do the work of
(33:39):
depolarization, of unification, and we live
in a dualistic world where it's this and
that right, and in the world of this and
that, there is always going to be conflict.
There's going to be my needs over your
needs, your interest over my interest, and
(34:00):
people trying to be powerful hold on to
their power, and this will always lead to
conflict.
Now, is it possible that there is a shift
that is so far beyond our imagination?
That could happen?
Yeah, the way this world is established.
Hilary Russo (34:18):
now I believe that there is a world beyond
this one.
James Twyman (34:22):
So I'm a student of A Course in Miracles
and there's a lesson there that says beyond
this world is a world that I want.
Okay, so beyond the world of separation,
beyond the world of duality, there is an
experience that I can access right now that
has nothing to do with this world.
So will there ever be a time when there are
(34:43):
no wars, no conflicts?
Hilary Russo (34:45):
Probably not, but there can be that in my
mind.
James Twyman (34:49):
In my experience, and if enough of us share
that, who knows?
Maybe I don't know I love you.
I think I just like hearing that you're
going to end everything with that you know,
every time I've given a talk on this that's
really what convinced me to write the book
is every time I've given a talk, it sticks.
(35:12):
People walk away and I'll overhear a
conversation two days later and they'll go.
Oh I don't know, maybe I love you Like wow,
they're integrating it in a playful way.
Maybe that's what we need is more
playfulness.
Hilary Russo (35:27):
Maybe we need more playfulness.
I love that you say that.
What if there's more play in our lives and
we go back to remembering that the child
part of ourselves that could, you know,
just enjoy being on the playground with
other children rather than really putting
all the stuff that we've learned over the
(35:47):
years that has created a lot of unrest and
disease really right, wouldn't that be nice.
Wouldn't that be nice.
It's possible, but it's really up to each
and every one of us ourselves, right?
James Twyman (36:02):
I don't know, maybe I love you Yep.
That's why we need a movement.
So, once again, I hope people will go to
the website and get enlisted in this
movement, because I think that if enough of
us, if even that small enough of us, if
even that small group of truly committed
people can activate this, I think it could
change the world.
Hilary Russo (36:21):
Yeah, and going back to children, is this a
book?
I mean, can you see yourself writing a
children's version of this?
James Twyman (36:29):
You know that's an interesting idea.
I've never thought of that.
If the book starts to take off, I think I
will and you can say you planted the idea
in my head.
I would love to see that happen?
Hilary Russo (36:41):
I really do.
I think that would be amazing.
Yes, so before I let you go, if you don't
mind, I'd love to play a little game with
you that.
I do with my guests, it's what I call brain
candy Basically with my guests.
It's what I call brain candy, basically
word association.
Okay, and these are words that you've said
(37:03):
during this conversation.
Here we go love, no disagreement oh well.
Curiosity.
James Twyman (37:11):
Yes.
Hilary Russo (37:12):
Safety.
James Twyman (37:15):
Good.
Hilary Russo (37:16):
Movement.
James Twyman (37:18):
Essential.
Hilary Russo (37:21):
Peace, music, delight, deep polarized.
You're good at this Namaste.
Can we just end there?
I like that.
I like that.
Maybe one, one more, but it's going to be a
statement, I don't know maybe I love you.
(37:44):
Let's do this let's do this absolutely.
What a joy to have you here.
Uh, you are a light and a gift, and I would
love to see everything that you want for
this book and this world to happen, because
I'm on it too, and I just want to say I
really appreciate you, but is there
(38:07):
something that you'd like to leave with
those who are tuning in to HIListically
Speaking?
James Twyman (38:12):
Yes, be courageous and be curious.
We can do this together if each one of us
makes the commitment to be the change that
we want to see in the world.
We can't expect it to happen out here until
it happens in here and in here.
(38:33):
But it takes courage.
It's going to mean stepping away from our
comfort zone, but in a way that can heal,
in a way that can unify.
So, once again, be courageous, be curious
and let's do this together.
Hilary Russo (38:50):
Let's do this.
Thank you, let's do this.
Thank you.
I don't know, maybe I love you.
If you are going to put one book into your
library right now, this is it.
The link to grab it is in the notes of this
podcast episode with James Twyman, and you
can also find more on his movement at
d-polarizecom.
(39:13):
All of that is in the notes of this podcast,
so take a look and get in touch and if this
episode has touch, moved and inspired you
in any way and I imagine it has pay it
forward.
Share the love, share the movement and
bring more eyes and ears to this
conversation so that we can make a
difference, and let me know that you're
tuning in and what you think about this
(39:34):
episode.
Leave a thoughtful response.
I read every single one of your kind words
and I am so grateful.
HIListically Speaking is edited by 2 Market
Media with music by Lipbone Redding and
supported by you.
I'm so grateful that you join me week after
week and, as James shared on this show
during this conversation.
We don't have all the answers, do we, but
(39:56):
we do have a responsibility to create the
space of curiosity.
I don't know, maybe I love you.
And, on that note, I do love you.
I'm leaving you and I'm sending hugs your
way.
Be well, okay, that's it.
Be well, okay, that's it.
Beyond the world of duality, there is an
experience that I can access right now that
has nothing to do with this world.
So will there ever be a time when there are
no wars, no conflicts?
Probably not, but there can be that in my
mind.
Hilary Russo (00:18):
What if kind words can end an argument or
diffuse an upset in a matter with somebody
else?
So, in this world where political strife
and social unrest is really pulling people
apart, the need for solutions is urgent.
How do we find ways to bridge these divides
or heal fractured relationships and have a
(00:40):
better understanding in such a polarized
time?
I want you to brace yourself, because a
plan for peace is about to surround you
like a warm blanket.
For over three decades, he has been a
global force for peace, guiding millions
through synchronized meditations, spreading
(01:01):
messages of unity.
As a New York Times bestselling author, he
has over 24 books, including the Moses Code,
and he's a musician with 22 albums to his
name.
James Twyman, the peace troubadour.
You have touched so many lives around the
world, but now you are here.
You're tackling one of the greatest
(01:21):
challenges we face today the depolarization
that's fracturing families, businesses and
really entire nations.
And your latest book and I'm going to say
it like I would say it to somebody else I
don't know, maybe I love you offers more
than just a call to awareness.
It's really a movement to bring people
(01:42):
together.
It is such an honor to have you on
HIListically Speaking.
It is a gift, and thank you for being here
on the show.
James Twyman (01:49):
Well, thank you, Hilary.
It's an honor for me to be able to share
and to be with you and everyone on this
beautiful program.
Hilary Russo (01:56):
So first I want to start.
Did I say the book correctly?
Because to me it seemed like a statement to
break that wall between somebody else when
you're having the relationship, when you're
having the conversation.
James Twyman (02:06):
You said it exactly exactly as it was said
originally.
In fact, I'll tell you the story of how it
all happened.
I was talking to my younger brother on the
phone.
Now, as younger brothers can sometimes be,
he always wants to prove himself and beat
me at whatever it is we're playing, whether
it's a game of basketball or an argument,
(02:28):
and he tends to be better informed than me
on a lot of things.
So we were talking and we do also tend to
have different sides of the argument and I
realized that he was winning.
So I just said Kenny, I don't know, maybe I
love you.
(02:48):
And the argument just ended right there,
and I realized in that moment that
something magical had just happened when I
didn't defend myself and I didn't assert
myself and try and make him wrong, a space
opened where we could come together rather
than be pushed further apart.
And isn't that the issue that we're facing
(03:10):
so often today In our need to be right, or
what I like to call the pandemic of being
right?
This is, I think, the real core In
enforcing this.
We push each other away rather than trying
to find the commonality, and three simple
statements I don't know, maybe I love you
can be a beginning to bringing not only a
(03:34):
couple of people together, but the whole
world.
Hilary Russo (03:37):
Yeah, and I'm curious in that moment, when
you had that conversation with Kenny, did
you know that there was a book in what you
stated?
I mean, where, at that point, did it happen?
James Twyman (03:49):
I did not.
In fact, I was determined not to write a
book.
I'd written 23 books at that point and I
was just kind of finished, not really
wanting to do all the work.
I figured I had said what I had wanted to
say.
And then what happened?
(04:09):
Back in September I was on a concert tour
on the East Coast and I drove from Portland,
oregon, all the way to the East Coast and I
was up in northern New Hampshire with a
friend of mine who was sponsoring an event
I was doing, and that night he and his wife
and I went out to dinner and I didn't
realize that his wife owned a small
(04:31):
publishing company, and so we were chatting
and I said to her I don't intend to write
any more books, but if I did, this is the
one I would write.
And I told her about this and she said if
you write that book, I will publish it, and
that that the interest was enough to spark
(04:51):
me and get me moving.
I think I started writing that night along
the East Coast and then back to Portland,
as I talk to people about what's happening
in their lives, their opinions, about
what's happening in the country, in the
world, and honoring and respecting other
people, regardless of whether they agree
with me or don't.
(05:31):
I could feel something begin to open and I
realized that this is an important book.
This is an important movement, because I
realized right away that this is not just
here's the book.
It's not just a book to read, but it's a
movement to join.
And if we can get thousands or even
millions of people saying I'm going to be a
depolarizing agent, I'm going to focus my
(05:51):
attention on bringing people back together,
if enough of us do that, then the solution
will occur naturally and on its own.
So that's what I'm hoping this book will do
is begin that conversation its own.
Hilary Russo (06:05):
So that's what I'm hoping this book will do
is begin that conversation.
And what can?
Is the book kind of like a companion guide
where you follow along, Because obviously
the book just came out.
I have not had a chance to read it, but
just in knowing it and hearing about it and
learning about it from what I've read about
you and knowing who you are, I can imagine
it's like having that companion by your
(06:26):
side.
James Twyman (06:27):
It is.
I love to write stories and when I thought
about writing this as just a strict
nonfiction how-to book, it didn't excite me.
But when I was driving along the East Coast
and then all the way back to Oregon in my
van, I started having conversations with
(06:48):
people and I realized that it's in the
interactions where the magic happens.
One example would be when I was in New
Jersey, where you are now.
I was visiting probably my dearest friend,
someone I've known for 30 years, someone
who, if you ask anyone who knows her, they
will tell you that she's the holiest, most
(07:10):
loving person they've ever known.
And yet in sitting down with her, I
realized that she was a MAGA enthusiast and
I was shocked by that.
You can probably tell just from that that I
am not a MAGA enthusiast.
And because I love her so much, I listened
(07:31):
to her.
I didn't immediately jump in and say how in
the world could someone as loving as you
and then go on.
Instead, I just held still and held respect
and listened to her perspective and
realized that it's not about me agreeing
with her, but it's about us holding space
(07:53):
for the other to feel respected.
Something that is so simple, something that
we were all taught in kindergarten and yet
seems to have been thrown out the window so
often today.
So, with that story and many others, there
was another case where I visited a couple
of friends in Maine, two very dear friends,
(08:15):
very spiritual people and they were asking
the question this is right before the
election, by the way when I was writing the
book.
So we didn't know what was going to happen.
And my friend, bill, asked how would a sage
vote?
If a sage or an enlightened being were to
step into the voting booth, how would they
vote?
(08:35):
And that was an interesting question.
And I think the answer is they would listen
in the moment.
They would not have all of the preconceived
ideas and judgments, they would simply hold
still and listen and follow the inspiration
that they receive.
So all of these interactions, whether they
be people who agree with me or people who
(08:56):
didn't agree with me, but we chose to
listen to one another, to respect one
another.
I chose to say to my friend, for example I
don't know, maybe all I know is I love you.
That was enough to open up the space,
because the truth is, Hilary, and I'm sure
you know this, I don't know and you don't
(09:17):
know for sure.
None of us know for sure anything.
We have our beliefs, we have our opinions,
and that's great.
But I don't know for sure what needs to
happen.
Maybe there's something I'm going to learn
from you that can help me go deeper.
Hilary Russo (09:35):
All I know for sure is that there needs to
be a foundation of love present, otherwise
we go nowhere and it's such a simple
(09:58):
formula, but it really works about how that
very short dialogue and statement can
diffuse a situation, and I felt it even
though you weren't specifically talking to
me in response to something I said, and I
think that's the big distinction, isn't it?
It's responding rather than reacting.
(10:20):
Right.
There's really something that there's a
difference there.
And, look, I would imagine those listening
and tuning in or even watching on YouTube.
There are people in your life that you love,
that do not agree with your beliefs on
certain things, who you voted for.
All of these things are going to come into
your life and it's learning how to be okay,
(10:45):
not having to be understood right and not
being agreed with all the time.
You know yeah, it's such a simple statement.
James Twyman (10:56):
It really is so simple.
Hilary Russo (10:58):
So simple.
So where do you go with that Once you say
that, and what if there is conflict?
Like what if it's heated and that doesn't
diffuse the situation?
James Twyman (11:10):
Well, it may not always be diffused.
I know that it's up to me and not you.
It's not about me teaching someone else
what they should do or say or how they
should think.
It's about me watching my own mind,
noticing when I have polarizing thoughts or
when I want to make someone wrong.
(11:31):
Even if I know they are wrong, right Still.
It's about respect and opening up a space
of curiosity, to be curious.
Well, how did you come to that belief?
What happened in your life that led you to
believe that, if I can ask questions
instead of reacting once again, responding
(11:54):
instead of reacting a dialogue happens so
often.
There's no dialogue, there's just.
I believe this and you believe that I'm
right.
Right, you're wrong.
We either go like this or we go like that.
We we fight or we separate, but we don't
get anywhere.
And and what we need today is to move in a
(12:15):
positive direction because, as we all know,
we are moving in such a negative, such a
divisive direction that it's becoming very,
very dangerous for many, many people.
And it's up to me, even in a situation like
you mentioned, where it can become very
difficult.
I remember when I was driving out east to
(12:36):
go on this tour, I stopped in Minneapolis,
where my father lives, and spent a few days
with him.
Well, it would be hard to be more different
than my father and I in almost everything
that we believe or any position that we
hold, and it was hard.
It was really hard for me to listen to him
(12:58):
and his beliefs and I wanted to get in
there and I wanted to teach him or to
change him.
To get in there and I wanted to teach him
or to change him.
But I thought, okay, if I'm going to do
this, I need to begin where it's closest.
I need to begin with my own family, and
that meant just listening to my father,
appreciating my father and not trying to
(13:19):
change him.
You know he sits, you know, in his chair
watching a certain news channel all day
long, so it's no surprise that he would be.
You know, all of these ideas would be
filtered through his mind, so I have to
have some compassion for that.
Once again, it's about me doing the work,
not expecting someone else to do the work.
(13:40):
If I'm going to be a depolarizing agent, it
has to start and end in one place, which is
my own mind and my own willingness to be
curious about what you think.
Hilary Russo (13:53):
Do you think that goes back to feeling
unsafe?
Oh sure, knowing that somebody so close to
you you know a parent, you know that's the
closest thing to you that they're feeling
something that goes back to a feeling of
safety.
James Twyman (14:07):
Yeah, I think that's true, and in any
disagreement is, if we all want to be right,
we all want to think that that our position
is the correct position, whether it is or
whether it isn't.
The thing that is frustrating to me,
however, is when.
Okay, so I am an Episcopal priest, as you
(14:29):
know, and so I take literally the things
that Jesus asked us to do and the way he
asked us to live, and so when people call
themselves a Christian and they claim that,
but do the exact opposite, that's
frustrating to me.
Now, the first thing I have to do is to
(14:51):
realize that there is a shadow here that
I'm not looking at.
How do I do the opposite?
How am I not willing to live this?
I know that when I have a strong reaction
to something, there's a lesson for me, a
healing for me.
So that's always the first place.
(15:12):
That's where we begin is what do I have to
learn here?
If I'm being frustrated by people who claim
one thing and do another, how am I doing
that and how can I heal that first, so that
when I encounter those people, I'm not
going to have a reactionary opinion, I'm
going to have a compassionate way of
holding them, so that maybe we can come
(15:34):
together in ways that would have been
impossible before.
Hilary Russo (15:37):
Yeah, so how did that resolve with dad?
James Twyman (15:40):
Well, I just got off the phone with him
right before the interview and it's good.
Yeah, yes, we do avoid certain topics.
That's what we sometimes have to do, and
that's just so that we can remember that
it's not about our opinions.
It's about the fact that we love each other,
and sometimes we have to be selective about
(16:02):
what we share or the subjects that we cross,
because if we're not careful we're going to
get into dicey territory, where the work
gets a little bit harder.
So when I talk to my father, I just
remember that I love him and he loves me,
and it doesn't matter if we agree or don't
agree.
(16:23):
We just need to hold that space and let
that love expand so that the differences
don't mean as much as we think they do.
Hilary Russo (16:30):
I think there's a point where in this
modern day and time, especially the digital
age, we are overwhelmed with so much
information.
We're watching television, we're swiping
our phones, we're going to hear opinions,
whether they are far to the left or the
right.
Nothing too drastic to either side is good.
(16:50):
But in that moment, where do we come back
to center and say to ourselves first, it's
okay that I don't know, I'm not in danger,
I love this person and that's what matters
most, right.
James Twyman (17:07):
Exactly, that's what matters most.
Hilary Russo (17:10):
Yeah, and the other thing is, I feel, going
back to the digital age, there was a time
when we didn't really talk about religion
and politics like we do now, almost like
we're opening our diaries and just
everything's just coming out and it's like
us versus them.
You know, how do you deal with that as
someone who is somebody that people come to
(17:32):
in the spiritual and religious world?
How do you approach that?
James Twyman (17:38):
Well, I remember, first of all, that, in
this time that we find ourselves in, we all
live in very small echo chambers and
everything we believe is echoing back at us,
for example, in our social media.
It watches us and it sees what we click on
(18:00):
to what we like, and then it keeps feeding
that very thing to us, and when that
happens, it reinforces this idea that I am
right about my beliefs, because everyone
else is telling me I'm right because of
these algorithms, and so the pandemic of
being right, you know, becomes like
(18:21):
concrete.
I must be right because the people that I
listen to agree with me.
But the reason all these people agree with
me is because it's getting filtered through
my beliefs and it's keeping out anything
that's different, anything that will give
me a better, more inclusive view of what's
(18:42):
going on, and sometimes that means seeking
out or listening to some of the people or,
you know, whether it be online or in
broadcast, to the people.
That may not always give us the exact
answer that we want, maybe a different
(19:05):
perspective and to not necessarily agree
with it, but to be open.
Once again, I don't know, maybe I love you,
to always keep that loving heart open so
that I can hear, I can be curious, I can
listen rather than attack when someone
disagrees with me.
(19:26):
I mean, we have become so polarized and
this is why a movement is needed today.
We have become so polarized and this is why
a movement is needed today.
We need people who commit themselves to
saying I want to be part of this.
So what I suggest?
(19:47):
Obviously you know.
I hope people read the book, because I
think it does have a lot of fun stories in
it and ways that we can do that.
But, more important, I invite people to go
to the website, which is de-polarizecom,
where we're going to have trainings, we're
going to have ways of people beginning to
interact together so that we can really
start a movement and not just have
individuals, but to have some cohesive
(20:08):
element where people can come together and
work together and achieve what may seem
impossible together Peace in a level that
we can't even imagine right now.
Hilary Russo (20:19):
So I just want to remind folks.
Father James Twyman, you are an Episcopal
priest.
I do want to give you a give moment to just
share that.
But also, if you're interested in his book,
it is called I don't know, maybe I love you
and also we will drop information on your
(20:41):
website that depolarized.
Is that what it is?
Depolarizedcom.
James Twyman (20:45):
D-polarizedcom.
Hilary Russo (20:47):
Okay, we'll put that in the notes as well,
as well as a link to the book which just
came out.
What is your hope for this book Like?
What is the true vision you see?
James Twyman (21:00):
Good question.
Yeah, I remember back in the day there was
always so much focus on getting on the list,
making sure you can put bestseller behind
the title and a lot of that also.
There was a certain keeping up with the
Joneses.
You know, you know all of the other authors
(21:20):
and you want to make sure you're in sitting
at the cool table in the high school
cafeteria.
That's almost what it's like.
Luckily, I've given up on all of that.
That's all gone.
Hilary Russo (21:32):
Did that happen?
Did giving up on it happen after you became
a New York Times bestselling author?
Easy to say, when you have that.
James Twyman (21:40):
Maybe, maybe, good point.
A friend of mine yesterday sent me an email.
He said remember, this is not a sprint,
it's a marathon.
So it's not just about how many books you
sell the first week, because if you're
trying to get on, say, the New York Times
best seller list, it's all about what you
(22:00):
sell in a given week.
So a lot of focus goes into that.
But really starting a movement, especially
like this one, it's a slow process and I am
much more interested in that than I am in
just a quick flash in the pan.
(22:21):
I'll be doing many more interviews like
this one.
I'll hopefully be speaking to many other
people about this and hopefully the book is
going to begin to get some attention,
because the need is so great.
I think everyone agrees with this, no
matter what side we're on.
We've got to find a way to come together
here or we're in big trouble, because if we
(22:41):
keep moving in that you know, opposite
direction, it's like a rubber band.
The tension of the rubber band is greatest
right before it snaps.
Now here's the thing, Hilary, maybe it
needs to snap, I don't know.
Maybe I don't know, maybe Maybe something
has to happen that's very dramatic in order
to catch our attention.
(23:03):
Unfortunately, this is how human beings
tend to operate it's only when we have to
look at something that we actually do look
at something.
So this is why it helps me to stay open and
let go of my judgment say about what's
happening politically right now.
It would be easy for me to say that's wrong,
(23:25):
that shouldn't happen, but the truth is I
don't know what needs to happen.
I have my opinion, you have your opinion.
We have whatever compassionate response
know what needs to happen.
I have my opinion, you have your opinion.
We have whatever compassionate response we
believe needs to happen.
But maybe something new and different is in
store and maybe it will be brought about
through some difficult happening.
Hilary Russo (23:46):
I don't know, but I'm open to that and this
book I think is is hopefully going to be
part of a much larger awakening, a movement
where people begin talking about this more
and realizing that they can have an impact,
that they can help change this from the
inside out I will say, when this first came
(24:08):
into my space, I was just taken by the
title, because I saw the words I don't know,
which many of us know, we don't know and we
always question things, but it was the I
love you that really pulled me in, because
it's the desire to want to feel accepted
and validated and loved, right.
(24:28):
So hopefully that title alone, before
people even know what this is about, could
make that shift, you know.
So a question I have for you, and thank you
for sharing everything you've shared so far.
You have your Namaste Village down in
Mexico.
You travel around the world, you play your
(24:50):
music, the piece Trour I love that title,
by the way and there's so many different
sides to who you are.
But how did the faith side come into your
space when to make that powerful choice to
become a priest?
Where did that happen, and has it always
been like that?
James Twyman (25:10):
I think it's always been like that.
I was raised in a very Catholic family and
I can remember being a very young boy and
being an altar boy and feeling something so
deep that I cannot even speak about it.
There was a resonance or a frequency that
was vibrating and being raised the way I
(25:33):
was, that just meant you were supposed to
be a priest.
So when I was 18, right after high school,
I joined the Franciscans and I thought that
was my path.
But I wasn't ready so I left, continued to
live a very spiritual life, but it opened
up.
I began to get much more into metaphysical
(25:53):
teachings and A Course in Miracles and go
into unity churches, and it really expanded
my horizon.
However, at the same time I always did feel
a resonance with what I'll call the mother
church.
From a Christian perspective, that would be
(26:14):
my Catholic upbringing, or now the
Episcopalian, which is so close to the
Catholic.
But I've also always been very
interreligious.
So that started back in 1994 when a friend
of mine gave me a sheet of paper that had
the peace prayers from the 12 major
religions of the world on them and I picked
(26:36):
up my guitar and just began to play what I
was hearing and within one hour, I put all
12 of the prayers to music and I knew from
that moment on that this would form the
foundation of my life.
I started being called the peace troubadour
and traveling to countries that were at war
or conflict and sharing these prayers in
(26:58):
this concert, and so that opened up a whole
nother realm.
And then, of course, seven years ago seven
and a half years ago founding this village
in Mexico, namaste Village.
That has been just a truly blessed thing.
We have 40 houses or apartments.
They're almost always full.
(27:18):
It's an inter-spiritual community, so we
have people who are Buddhist, jewish, hindu,
you name it.
We got it all, so it makes it very unique.
And yet here I am now, back in Portland,
and I'm focusing more on my Franciscan
calling.
Many Episcopalians and Anglicans don't know
(27:40):
that there are orders like the Franciscan
order within the Episcopal Church as well.
So I'm a professed member of an Episcopal
Franciscan order, because Francis, 800
years ago, encountered so many of the
things we're talking about here today.
He lived in a very polarized time and yet
(28:01):
his voice and his call to simply live this
and not use words, as much as the vibration.
In fact, my favorite quote from Francis is
when he said, our only job is to teach the
gospel wherever we go, but only when
necessary to use words.
(28:23):
To me, that's what this is all about.
It's also what this book is about.
It's about the frequency, the willingness
to enter into every interaction with
curiosity and openness, and maybe, if we do
that, a new renaissance will be born.
When Francis was alive 800 years ago, it
was the end of the dark ages.
(28:44):
Maybe this is the end of a dark age right
now.
Maybe we're coming into a time of great
light.
As Francis inspired then, maybe we can
inspire that today, where we look back at
this time, even a few years from now, and
say it's amazing how things have changed
and how close together we are now.
Hilary Russo (29:05):
Wouldn't that be something?
Wouldn't that be something and just
thinking about that from a perspective of
curiosity.
I don't know, maybe right, it just opens
the mind to just thinking, taking it the
positive way, where we're conditioned to go
to the negative, it's easier.
(29:26):
We have a lazy brain.
It needs to feel safe and protected.
That's how it does that.
But what if we are retraining our brain to
go in the direction of curiosity and an
inquisitive nature and the possibility that
everything's going to be okay?
but let's come from a space of, of
nurturing and caring and peace and love,
(29:47):
and you know you're going to have the
people out there that are like this isn't
Woodstock y'all, but why not?
Why can like this isn't Woodstock y'all,
but why not?
Why can't it be a global Woodstock?
Why can't we do that with the informed
state that we have and the education and
going back to the most simplistic place of
just being a human being?
That's right, right.
(30:08):
I think we've lost sight of that.
James Twyman (30:09):
Oh yeah, you know, these are such simple
ideas.
Once again, we learned most of a force in
the middle that says nope, this is where
it's happening, this is the heart, this is
(30:41):
where we can heal.
We're not going to heal by asserting our
rightness, because all that does is assert
someone else's wrongness and we just get
pushed further and further apart else's
wrongness, and we just get pushed further
and further apart.
So it takes a committed group of people,
even if it's a small group.
Who is it?
Wasn't it Margaret Mead who said never
think that a small, dedicated group of
(31:04):
people can change the world?
In fact, it's the only thing that ever has.
Maybe that's what we need to just even have
a small group of people who say I am
committed to this.
Here's something that's interesting that
shows how quickly this can happen.
That's what we need to just even have a
small group of people who say I am
committed to this.
Here's something that's interesting that
shows how quickly this can happen.
I mentioned St Francis of Assisi, who lived
800 years ago.
(31:24):
And Francis, all he did was he didn't try
and start an order or a movement, he just
said I want to live this to the highest
degree possible.
That became magnetic and it began
attracting first men to join him.
And then, when Claire decided that she was
going to leave probably the wealthiest,
(31:46):
most noble family in Assisi and join women,
began to be magnetized toward her.
So the first order of Franciscans are the
priests and brothers.
The second order are what they call the
poor Clares, the order that Claire started.
But then there was the third order.
Francis started an order of laypeople who
(32:07):
wanted to be able to live this according to
their own life, you know, with families and
jobs, but to somehow live this in an
authentic way.
One of the things that they had to commit
to was that they would never bear arms.
Right by the time Francis died, a quarter
of all of Europe were third order
(32:29):
Franciscans, a quarter within 20 years,
maybe less.
Right To the point that the feudal system
which was always warring kingdom against
kingdom, city against city, fell apart
because they could no longer raise an army
because there were so many people who had
(32:49):
taken vows of nonviolence.
So if we can do the same, if we can all
take the vows of depolarization and say I
am going to be an active depolarizer, maybe
the same thing can happen where.
It's not that we're trying to change things.
The structure just falls apart because the
support, the foundation of it all, is no
(33:11):
longer there.
Hilary Russo (33:12):
Maybe that could happen in our own lifetime.
Do you think world peace is possible?
James Twyman (33:18):
that's a good question.
We could talk about that a lot, but what
I'll say?
If we want to get metaphysical and I know
that's a lot of what your show is all about
the answer would be no, because this, this
world, is where we work stuff out.
Okay, this is where we do the work of
(33:39):
depolarization, of unification, and we live
in a dualistic world where it's this and
that right, and in the world of this and
that, there is always going to be conflict.
There's going to be my needs over your
needs, your interest over my interest, and
(34:00):
people trying to be powerful hold on to
their power, and this will always lead to
conflict.
Now, is it possible that there is a shift
that is so far beyond our imagination?
That could happen?
Yeah, the way this world is established.
Hilary Russo (34:18):
now I believe that there is a world beyond
this one.
James Twyman (34:22):
So I'm a student of A Course in Miracles
and there's a lesson there that says beyond
this world is a world that I want.
Okay, so beyond the world of separation,
beyond the world of duality, there is an
experience that I can access right now that
has nothing to do with this world.
So will there ever be a time when there are
(34:43):
no wars, no conflicts?
Hilary Russo (34:45):
Probably not, but there can be that in my
mind.
James Twyman (34:49):
In my experience, and if enough of us share
that, who knows?
Maybe I don't know I love you.
I think I just like hearing that you're
going to end everything with that you know,
every time I've given a talk on this that's
really what convinced me to write the book
is every time I've given a talk, it sticks.
(35:12):
People walk away and I'll overhear a
conversation two days later and they'll go.
Oh I don't know, maybe I love you Like wow,
they're integrating it in a playful way.
Maybe that's what we need is more
playfulness.
Hilary Russo (35:27):
Maybe we need more playfulness.
I love that you say that.
What if there's more play in our lives and
we go back to remembering that the child
part of ourselves that could, you know,
just enjoy being on the playground with
other children rather than really putting
all the stuff that we've learned over the
(35:47):
years that has created a lot of unrest and
disease really right, wouldn't that be nice.
Wouldn't that be nice.
It's possible, but it's really up to each
and every one of us ourselves, right?
James Twyman (36:02):
I don't know, maybe I love you Yep.
That's why we need a movement.
So, once again, I hope people will go to
the website and get enlisted in this
movement, because I think that if enough of
us, if even that small enough of us, if
even that small group of truly committed
people can activate this, I think it could
change the world.
Hilary Russo (36:21):
Yeah, and going back to children, is this a
book?
I mean, can you see yourself writing a
children's version of this?
James Twyman (36:29):
You know that's an interesting idea.
I've never thought of that.
If the book starts to take off, I think I
will and you can say you planted the idea
in my head.
I would love to see that happen?
Hilary Russo (36:41):
I really do.
I think that would be amazing.
Yes, so before I let you go, if you don't
mind, I'd love to play a little game with
you that.
I do with my guests, it's what I call brain
candy Basically with my guests.
It's what I call brain candy, basically
word association.
Okay, and these are words that you've said
(37:03):
during this conversation.
Here we go love, no disagreement oh well.
Curiosity.
James Twyman (37:11):
Yes.
Hilary Russo (37:12):
Safety.
James Twyman (37:15):
Good.
Hilary Russo (37:16):
Movement.
James Twyman (37:18):
Essential.
Hilary Russo (37:21):
Peace, music, delight, deep polarized.
You're good at this Namaste.
Can we just end there?
I like that.
I like that.
Maybe one, one more, but it's going to be a
statement, I don't know maybe I love you.
(37:44):
Let's do this let's do this absolutely.
What a joy to have you here.
Uh, you are a light and a gift, and I would
love to see everything that you want for
this book and this world to happen, because
I'm on it too, and I just want to say I
really appreciate you, but is there
(38:07):
something that you'd like to leave with
those who are tuning in to HIListically
Speaking?
James Twyman (38:12):
Yes, be courageous and be curious.
We can do this together if each one of us
makes the commitment to be the change that
we want to see in the world.
We can't expect it to happen out here until
it happens in here and in here.
(38:33):
But it takes courage.
It's going to mean stepping away from our
comfort zone, but in a way that can heal,
in a way that can unify.
So, once again, be courageous, be curious
and let's do this together.
Hilary Russo (38:50):
Let's do this.
Thank you, let's do this.
Thank you.
I don't know, maybe I love you.
If you are going to put one book into your
library right now, this is it.
The link to grab it is in the notes of this
podcast episode with James Twyman, and you
can also find more on his movement at
d-polarizecom.
(39:13):
All of that is in the notes of this podcast,
so take a look and get in touch and if this
episode has touch, moved and inspired you
in any way and I imagine it has pay it
forward.
Share the love, share the movement and
bring more eyes and ears to this
conversation so that we can make a
difference, and let me know that you're
tuning in and what you think about this
(39:34):
episode.
Leave a thoughtful response.
I read every single one of your kind words
and I am so grateful.
HIListically Speaking is edited by 2 Market
Media with music by Lipbone Redding and
supported by you.
I'm so grateful that you join me week after
week and, as James shared on this show
during this conversation.
We don't have all the answers, do we, but
(39:56):
we do have a responsibility to create the
space of curiosity.
I don't know, maybe I love you.
And, on that note, I do love you.
I'm leaving you and I'm sending hugs your
way.
Be well, okay, that's it.
Be well, okay, that's it.
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