With Statista reporting there are 35 million Instagram users in the UK, social media platforms are a powerful tool to build brand awareness and convert followers into loyal customers.
Given this season is a focus on all things branding I was keen to speak to an expert content creator.
In this episode, I hear from Estée Lalonde, CEO and founder of bodycare brand MIRROR WATER. The brand champions mirror work and self-care, inspired by Estée’s quest to find effective relaxation tools during the pandemic. Estée has enjoyed a long career working within social media building a following of over 677k before founding her brand in 2021 which has already amassed a following of 35k.
She shares her advice on how to build your brand through social media, why doing the initial creative work on your brand is crucial for success and how DM’ing one of your idols (in this case Bobbi Brown) can be the motivation you need to keep going.
Estée’s advice:
- Always start with a good business plan
- Branding so important; to start with, concentrate on aspirational visuals that can then inform further work
- Don’t rush this stage:
- Create mood boards
- Take care of yourself and go with your intuition
- Get to the essence of what you want
- Settle on a name, which will take you in the right direction
- Look for a designer to support you and ensure you click with them, build that relationship to a point of trust
- Be strategic on social; post regularly and expect this to be a slow build
- Social media can help you launch, it is a big time commitment however it will pay dividends
- Brand instagramming is harder than being a social media influencer (owned content v earned, DM FF&M to find out more on this)
- Posting every day becomes a burden so look at process and systems to help you on this
- You can’t do it all so be clear on what success looks like and work backwards
- Keep it lean - less is more in all things in business, focus on one thing and do it well rather than trying to post on multiple platforms all the time
- Take time to reflect on what you’re doing and enjoy it
- Expect to be overwhelmed at times; but hang on it there!
If you'd like to contact Estée you can reach her via @esteelalonde on Instagram
FF&M enables you to own your own PR.
DM us on instagram @fallowfieldmason
Host Juliet Fallowfield LinkedIn
Submit a guest via this link
Submit a question for the next guest
Recorded, edited & published by Juliet Fallowfield, 2023 MD & Founder of PR & Communications consultancy for startups Fallow, Field & Mason.
FF&M recommends:
- LastPass the password-keeping site that syncs between devices.
- Google Workspace is brilliant for small businesses
- Buzzsprout podcast 'how to' & hosting directory
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to season 10 of How ToStart Up, the podcast helping
you start and scale yourbusiness with advice from
entrepreneurs on what to do now,next, or never when scaling your
company.
This season, we're focusing onall things brand.
So you'll hear from a series ofamazing entrepreneurs on what
they've learned in their ownjourneys.
hosted by me, JulietFallowfield, founder of the B
(00:20):
Corp certified PR andcommunications consultancy,
Fallowfield and Mason.
Our mission is to enable you toearn your communications
in-House with a long-term view.
With Statista reporting, thereare over 35 million Instagram
users in the UK.
Social media platforms areclearly a powerful tool to build
brand awareness and convertfollowers into loyal customers.
(00:42):
Given this season is a focus onall things branding, I was keen
to speak to an expert contentcreator.
In this episode, we hear fromEstée LaLonde, CEO and founder
of body care brand, MirrorWater.
Estéee has enjoyed a long careerworking within social media,
building a following of over677, 000 followers before
founding her brand in 2021,which was already a master
(01:03):
following of 35, 000.
She shares in this episode, heradvice on how to build your
brand through social media, whydoing the initial creative work
on your brand is crucial forsuccess and how DMing one of
your idols, in this case, BobbyBrown, can be the motivation you
need to keep going.
Juliet (01:20):
Thank you, Estée so much for joining How To Start Up
today.
Especially for our brandingseason, which kicks off in 2024.
So if we're recording end ofNovember, 2023, so it's not
away.
Um, But given I've seen you onInstagram, I followed you for
years.
I saw your launch of Mirrorwaterand oh my good God, is it a
delicious, amazing brand youhave built such an incredible
(01:42):
brand so quickly,congratulations.
Estee (01:44):
Thank you.
I feel like I needed to hearthat because there are so many
ups and downs and I feel likeI'm in a bit of a down right
now, so thank you for sayingthat.
Juliet (01:52):
It's so interesting because every person I speak to
and everyone I meet in the coworking office I use as well is
like, it's a roller coaster.
You have to be all right withthat.
And I'm like, I'm not, but I'mat peace with the fact it
exists.
But I'm sorry to hear thatyou're in one of those down
bits, but the good news is itmeans you're just about to be on
Estee (02:08):
Exactly.
And that's what I keep tellingmyself when I'm having like
anxiety fever dreams at night.
I'm like, it's only gonna getbetter.
Juliet (02:15):
Yeah, Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And I think, oh my goodness,there's so much I want to talk
to you about because given therise of social media and links
to mental health, looking at theethos behind mirror water in the
sense it looks back to mirrorwork, you're looking in the
mirror, you're doing the selfreflection.
It's sort of the antithesis ofsocial media, isn't it?
(02:36):
So do you maybe want tointroduce the brand and why you
started
Estee (02:39):
Definitely.
So, my name is Estée.
First of all, I am originallyfrom Canada.
For those people listening thathear an accent, I'm originally
from Canada, but I've lived inLondon for 15 years, which is
absolutely wild because I don'tknow where the time went, I feel
like just yEstéerday I movedhere, but anyway, in that time,
I discovered the world ofblogging and YouTube and all of
(03:02):
those things when it was verynew to the world.
Not everyone was doing it, thereweren't that many beauty
YouTubers in the world, and nowof course there's hundreds of
billions of creators, but it wasa very different time.
And the reason I really lookedto blogging, was so I could find
a sense of community in a placewhere I just moved.
(03:25):
I moved to this new, completelydifferent world, and I felt
super homesick.
And as you alluded to, I talk alot about mental health, and
it's something that's followedme through my life ever since I
was Honestly, my first memory offeeling depressed, I was around
six years old.
So it's one of those things thatI didn't realize at the time,
obviously when I'm six, butlooking back, I see those
(03:46):
patterns as early as six.
So when I moved to this newcountry, I felt really lost.
I felt I didn't have my place tobelong, I didn't have any
family, I didn't have anyfriends, and I discovered this
world of beauty and vlogging,and for me, it was so much more
about the lipstick and the facemoisturizer.
It was a way to connect withpeople in this new place that I
(04:09):
decided to live, and that's howmy career started.
It was really organic, I wasn'tlooking to start a career
through social media, it wasreally a hobby that I was doing
in my spare time.
And slowly, I gained a followingand decided to quit my part time
jobs and try blogging for thefirst year.
I said I was going to givemyself a year to really try
(04:31):
this.
And luckily it panned outbecause I don't know what I
would do otherwise.
So for the past sort of 14years, I've been doing that.
So I've worked in the beautyworld.
I've tried every single productunder the sun.
I've had some amazing brandcollaborations and I've done
that more on an endorsement dealbasis where, you know, a brand
will come to me.
(04:52):
They want me to promote thelaunch of their new product and
I put that in a YouTube videoBut I've always wanted to really
have my own brand my own Thingto really sink my teeth into I
had been to so many founderevents where you know Nicola
from Neom was launching her newcandle and we were being told
(05:13):
how she did that.
And then, Margaret fromAmoravidza would launch a new
product and I would be there.
And I just, I thought it wasamazing that these women were
creating these brands.
And I just always wanted to knowmore and more.
So for me, it was always lessabout the beauty product and
more about how did you get thatmade?
Like, where did you source thepackaging?
Like, how did you actually makea product?
Juliet (05:34):
So entrepreneurial brain already ticking of like, hang
on, they're doing it.
What were you just waiting forthat kind of moment of clarity
as to what your product wouldbe?
You always knew it was going tohappen, but in 2021, what was it
that made you go that, that'sit?
Estee (05:50):
To be honest, it was the pandemic.
I think, like you said, you hitthe nail on the head.
I didn't know what that productwas going to be.
I didn't want to just launchsomething for the sake of
launching something.
I knew that if I launchedsomething, I would have one go
at it.
And it had to be good.
And I couldn't really find thatniche.
And I was looking, okay?
(06:10):
I was really looking.
But when the pandemic happened Ihad just gone through a breakup.
It was brutal.
I was in my 30s.
I had just adopted my littledoggy, who, if you're watching
this, you can see her in thebackground.
She's from Greece and she was alittle anxious mess.
She wouldn't even look at me inthe eyes.
She was so scared of me.
And I just felt like my worldwas collapsing.
(06:32):
And I thought, what am I doing?
I'm living in the UK.
Like my family's not here.
And during that time when I wasfeeling really depressed and
stressed, I found myself turningto the ritual of bathing a lot,
and that has always been in mylife.
But especially during thepandemic, I was like in my bath
every single day.
And.
For those people that strugglewith mental health, you'll know
(06:55):
that sometimes even having ashower or having a bath seems
like the biggest hurdle.
And it's like something you justdon't even have the energy for
that.
So for me to have a bath inthose days, I wasn't really
working very much, all my workhad dried up during the
pandemic.
Nobody was paying me to put alipstick in a video at that
time.
And I just thought, Oh God, whatwould I do without having a
bath?
And then I just started thinkingabout.
(07:16):
bathing and how much I loved it.
And I just went into this rabbithole of researching the benefits
of bathing and why I liked it somuch and products that I could
buy to upgrade my bath timeritual.
And I started to realize,really, there weren't that many
brands doing it in a way thatfelt aligned to who I was, a 30
something burnt out millennial.
(07:39):
I felt like a lot of the brandswere maybe targeting an older
demographic.
So that was a light bulb momentfor me.
Juliet (07:44):
Yeah, amazing.
Well, thank you for doing itbecause I know a lot of people
benefit from it as well, but Ilove the fact that you've
launched a brand that's sohonest about why you've done it
and the benefits.
It's not necessarily thecosmetic benefit.
It's the ritual.
It's the experience.
It's the self care.
It's the recognition that youneed some help and that is so
important for anyone in any jobever, but especially I think for
(08:08):
entrepreneurs, freelancers,contractors, who don't have the
security of a work community ora regular paycheck, so I think
it's a huge achievement for whatyou've done.
Have you, and this is a bigquestion, have you enjoyed
Estee (08:21):
yes, I can answer that very quickly.
It's the best thing I've everdone.
It's the hardest thing I've everdone way harder than anyone
could ever prepare you for andI've been prepared because like
I said, I've got access to somany founders and everyone says,
this is very hard and it reallyis worse than you think but that
(08:42):
being said I've I was really upfor a challenge.
I can make a YouTube video withmy eyes closed by now and I was
looking for something to get meout of my comfort zone.
I love growing, I love beingchallenged and doing things that
I'd never done before.
I didn't even know what the termMOQ meant.
Minimum order quantity.
That's not my world.
So I just was learning all ofthese things that I felt like a
(09:04):
fish out of water
Juliet (09:05):
Yeah, it's that thrill, isn't it?
And I think I hit the kind ofyear and a half mark and I.
was conscious of the fact thatthat learning curve that was so
steep of I've learned how tobuild a website, I've learned
how to set up Xero, I now knowhow to employ people, I know how
to fire people, like all of thatlearning wasn't plateauing.
It's still pretty significant.
There's always more you're goingto learn, but the adrenaline was
wearing off and it was wearingthin and that burnout is really
(09:30):
real.
And that's something I'd love totalk to you in a little bit
later on about.
That side of the business, butgiven the season is all around
branding, the fact you've builtan amazing brand through social
media, I, I think first andforemost, but correct me if I'm
wrong on that, but how did yougo about your brand?
How did you
Estee (09:47):
Well, for me, branding is so important.
If you don't have a strongbranding, you might as well
forget about it.
That's the way I think.
I love branding.
visual things.
I am a visual person, butequally, sometimes I feel like
you need the visual side, butyou also need to be a realistic
of what works on social media.
So I feel like we're at a nicespace between, being an
(10:09):
aspirational designy type ofbrand, but also, we can hop on
TikTok and have a good time.
So it's been actually quiteinteresting trying to bridge
those two worlds.
But I started first of all bycreating mood boards, so that
was the most fun part and I wishI could go back in time and just
spend a few more weeks doingthat because it's so important
(10:31):
and luckily I had time on myside because it was during the
pandemic.
And all I had was time and itwas a really creative period of,
I would have fresh flowers on mydesk and I'd be listening to my
ambient music and I'd getPinterest up and just be super
creative.
And that is really important.
So don't rush that phase.
If you're someone listening,who's thinking about starting
(10:52):
something, even something assimple as water rippling, what
color is the water?
How big are the ripples?
Really learning about what youfeel in your gut, and I think
intuition is super importantwhen it comes to branding and
that's why you have to take careof yourself because if you don't
take care of yourself, it'sreally difficult to be able to
know what your intuition issaying.
(11:14):
I think so many of us are.
out of touch with our innerworlds and I'm actually
experiencing that right nowwhere I just feel a little
distant from myself and it's soeasy to get away from yourself
when we're running around anddoing eight million things but
that branding period I feel likeyou just need to take yourself
to a cabin and forget the worldfor a minute and get to the
(11:37):
essence of what you want thebrand to
Juliet (11:39):
Well, I mean, this might be a stupid question, but some
people at the beginning, it canfeel completely overwhelming.
It's like, I've got to launch aproduct and I have to get it
salvages immediately.
And it's like, well, step one, Ipresume it is the core of the
product.
What does the product do andwhat is it going to serve to
your clients?
What problem is it going tosolve for them?
Did you get your ingredients andthe kind of, practical element
of what the product was going toserve before you then did the
(12:01):
design,
Estee (12:02):
I did the design before I did the products.
So, I basically created allthese mood boards, and I came up
with the name.
I knew I wanted that name, and Iknew I wanted this particular
vibe.
And then the first thing I didwas found a designer.
Her name is Manueli, she'samazing, I couldn't have
launched the brand without her.
And she took my ideas, which isreally a bunch of nothingness,
(12:22):
and she turned it into whateveryone sees now as Mirror
Water.
So she's really instrumental increating the brand.
So I would say It's worth themoney to hire someone who has a
design eye and can turn aconcept into a real thing.
so that was the first
Juliet (12:37):
because the concept you can get really lost because it's
so huge and it's so endless, youcan go, go, go.
It's, it's, It's hard to containyour enthusiasm as well.
Finding someone, I think in anyelement of business to pull you
out of the weeds and help.
See big picture and go, and I'mgoing to realize this for you.
So did you meet her and justhave a really good connection
that you knew she couldtranslate this for you?
Estee (12:59):
Well, I was recommended her through my friend Yenna.
She's the founder of somethingcalled Gel Cream and I've known
her for years.
And she said, you should checkout this girl, Manuely.
I worked with her before and Ijust knew it.
I knew before I even met herthat it would be aligned.
And then when she came back tome with the logo, I thought.
That's not what I was picturing,but it's even better than what I
was picturing.
(13:19):
And I think when you're startingsomething, you really have to
give people the freedom to dowhat they do best.
The trust has to be there,obviously.
And you can't just trustblindly, but equally, if you
hire someone and you believe inthem, then you have to let them
fly with that.
And that's how I approach all ofmy team members within reason.
Juliet (13:39):
Someone said, let people be good.
If you're paying them the money,just let them be better than you
at things.
And I was like, yes, freedom.
And that's how you want to betreated by your colleagues as
well.
You have obviously built anincredible Instagram following.
I think we often forget thatpeople start with blogging and
the rise of social media hasbeen a quick one.
I was in an interview the otherday with Peony Lim and she said
(14:00):
I was a fashion student at theCourthold and she said I just
started blogging and now we allthink of her as an Instagrammer.
And the same with you, you'vegot 677, 000 followers on
Instagram.
Mirror Water has 35, 000followers on Instagram.
That is a big number.
How, first of all, do you managethe anxiety around that?
Because I'm sure that is a realthing.
Estee (14:19):
a great question, and I think the anxiety has really
changed over time.
I didn't have any anxiety in thebeginning because I was young
and it was all very exciting andI didn't really understand what
that meant.
Now that I'm a little bit olderand I recently just got engaged
and I'm excited to hopefullystart a family soon, that number
and that feeling is morestressful than probably ever
(14:42):
before for me.
Just because I'm really Into myprivacy.
And a lot of my friends nowdon't do this.
Whereas in the beginning, all ofmy friends were creators.
So it was normal to post abouteverything that you did.
But now, a lot of the peoplethat I hang out with, I'm the
odd one out by postingeverything.
And it feels more unnatural tome now, than it did then.
(15:04):
That being said, I don't knowwhat I would do without it.
Because if I don't post everyday, I'm like, I don't know what
to do with myself.
It's become such a habit.
And I love it.
Juliet (15:14):
Yeah, it's your job and it's what you get paid to do.
And was it a case you just builtan organic following year on
year and you're putting contentthat was getting engagement that
lead to more shares and more Isthat how it sort of came about
or were you really going afterit and really strategic about
building that
Estee (15:28):
It was a mix of both.
I think in the sense that I wasstrategic because I was posting
consistently, I was going toevents and I was meeting other
people, so I guess there's astrategic element there, but I
wasn't doing things.
necessarily just for viewseither.
I didn't have like that bigboom.
Wow.
Like she just gained 200,000followers.
(15:49):
I never had that.
It's always been a consistentthing.
And I think just over time, alot happens in 15 years.
I've met a lot of people in 15years.
So.
When I walk into a room, I knowa lot of people there because
I've seen them 800,000 times.
It's not something that justhappens overnight.
It's relationships that youbuild and cultivate over time.
And it's interesting because Isee a lot of TikTok people or
(16:13):
whatever now, and they get hugeovernight.
in a way I envy it because wow,that's A lot different than like
working for 15 years.
Well, I know it's just differentto the way I experienced it, but
I can't do what they do I don'tknow how to do what they do
That's such a skill and i'm likei'm fascinated by it and I can't
(16:35):
really get my brain around whatthey do So, fair play to them.
That's its own entity but I justwonder how they would deal with
that sort of overnight success,but That being said, they don't
necessarily have the legacy andthe connections of, knowing the
journalists and knowing allthese people, but I guess in
this day and age it doesn'treally matter as much.
Juliet (16:55):
mean, it's so weird.
And I think a lot of peoplethink they're experts in
Instagram and, TikTok and socialmedia.
And I spoke to Jeremy Jaunceyonce, founder of Beautiful
Destinations.
He said, if anyone tells youthey understand the algorithm,
they're lying.
It changes every half an hourand it's like, okay, we can be
at peace.
that All of us are testing andtrying and learning, but going
back to Mirror Water and itslaunch, how fundamental was
(17:17):
social media in the launch ofMIRROR
Estee (17:18):
WATER It was everything.
It was really the only tool thatI had.
I think, of course, in so manyways, because I had my platform
that I built, it was a huge legup in so many ways, obviously,
and a lot of people don't havethat.
So I feel really grateful forthat.
But on the other hand, You havea lot of extra eyeballs looking
at you and not wanting you tofail, but waiting for you to
(17:40):
fail, I would say, it feels likesometimes.
I mean, that's maybe my anxietytalking, but that's how I felt.
Juliet (17:46):
You've got more to lose.
Estee (17:47):
I felt an extra pressure to launch something because
everybody's watching.
So, that,
Juliet (17:54):
And you care about your followers and you don't want to
do them wrong.
You want to give them somethingthat you really genuinely think
will benefit them, which iscoming from an authentic place.
I have to say you're the leastinfluency influencer ever.
You're so genuine and
Estee (18:08):
Oh, I wish I could be more influency because
everyone's always telling melike you need to get better
about speaking about yourselfAnd you need to get more
confident.
Like this is just who I am.
Okay?
But thank you But social mediawas everything and I started
building this community Before Ieven knew what products I was
going to have.
(18:28):
So I started the mirror waterInstagram.
It was just a vibe it was justpictures of Bathrooms and yeah,
I know
Juliet (18:36):
I remember watching going, what is going on here?
This is really
Estee (18:39):
I want to get back to that.
Actually.
That's something i'm working onUh, but that was very exciting
and people were like, what isshe doing?
What is she gonna launch?
There was all this speculation.
I don't think people thought Idon't know, but I don't think
people knew the extent to whichI'd been working on something.
I think maybe they just thoughtit was going to be like a mood
board or a podcast or somethinglike that.
(19:00):
I don't know, but I don't thinkthey thought I was going to
launch a physical product.
So that was quite surprising, Ithink, to a lot of people.
And honestly, to myself.
Juliet (19:08):
Well, it's working, so it's great and I love it.
Um, And I think maybe forlisteners, it's important to say
that you were coming from aworld where you were posting
organic content on your ownInstagram handle, you're working
with brands as journalist would,as an influencer would to
product and launches that youcould talk about and give your
opinion on.
So it's, it's much more of a PRpiece of content.
(19:28):
Now you've got a brand channelwith.
It's products you're selling andyou may have built a website and
linked it to Shopify orsomething else where you can
commercialize your Instagram forMirrorwater in a different way
that you were commercializingyour Instagram for Estéee
Lauderon.
I a lot of people get confused.
It's like, we want to work withinfluencers and we want to work
on social media.
It's like, there's a differencebetween what type of content
(19:49):
you're putting out there andbuilding.
And could you maybe give a quickoverview is the difference
between organic and paid social?
Estee (19:56):
well, first of all, running the brand's Instagram is
completely different to runningmy own personal Instagram.
And I thought I would be prettynatural at doing the brand's
Instagram, but actually it's acompletely different skill set
and it's a lot harder.
So it's very hard for a brand toget Instagram followers and
likes and comments because it'sa brand and not a lot of people
(20:17):
engage with a brand.
So that's been a huge learningcurve there.
So I'll just park that thought,but obviously organic social is
unpaid.
And that's something that again,because I did it for so long, 15
years, it's so natural for me topromote a product for free.
I've done, I do that all thetime.
That's what I usually do.
Sometimes a bigger brand willcome to me and say we would love
(20:39):
to pay you to get thisguaranteed content.
And that's great.
But for the most part, for myentire career, I was just.
Gifted products, and if I likedit, I would speak about it, and
it wasn't really whether or notthey would pay me or not.
I think that's changed a lot nowEspecially with the rise of UGC
creators.
That is something that I wish Ithought of back then, because it
is genius! And I was doing thatfor free to grow my own
(21:04):
audience.
So UGC creators, for anyonelistening, user generated
content, all brands are lookingfor natural looking content
without having to pay a hugepremium to pay an influencer,
5,000 pounds or something likethat.
So you'll pay a UGC creator like500 pounds and they'll create a
bunch of assets for you to makeit look more natural.
(21:26):
That's a whole other world,isn't it?
Juliet (21:28):
Yeah and also when you're looking at your mirror
water channel, you can.
Boost posts and you can putmoney behind posts and pay for
it to reach people rather thanorganic content where it can
just get to people through thealgorithm and people engaging
and sharing means more Instagramthinks more people want to
engage and share so it'll serveit up more often and it's so
(21:48):
interesting because you're doingthe both, you're
Estee (21:50):
Yeah, and also, paid media is a whole other thing
that I need to really get into.
But just because you put 20pounds behind a post you might
get more likes, whatever, butthat doesn't necessarily mean
More purchases, and we have beenworking with a paid media
specialist, and we've beentesting and trialing and putting
money behind some of our posts,anyway, it's not really
(22:11):
converting, and there's an artto that as well, you have to
really think about the creativebehind the paid media that
you're putting out there as wellthat's a whole, that's a full
time job in itself which isreally difficult,
Juliet (22:24):
Well, in the world of marketing, my day job is in
communications and we enablefounders to own their own PR and
storytelling and it's comingfrom an in house role before
seeing that creative directorspeak to the journalist.
It's dreamy and that's what Ilove, but there's so many parts
of the marketing bucket that alot of people like.
Well, I can design my own logo,I can do my own paid social, I
(22:45):
can do my own PR.
You actually have to learn theseskills and there's a reason
there's lots of big brands thathave big marketing departments.
It shouldn't just be dismissedas something that you can just
do off the cuff.
And a lot of people have saidthis as well, is you have to
test and learn, you have to trythings, see what works, see what
doesn't work, learn from it, A,B test, everything.
So.
Do one thing A and another thingB and then look at the results
(23:07):
and compare them to see whatworks in your newsletter.
Send out, split it in half, A,B, test it.
Look at the content and contentis king and it just, oh, we
should say queen.
It is amazing how that feedsinto your brand that feeds into
the loyalty of your follower oryour client, or even the repeat
client, because you startputting content out that jars
(23:27):
with them and be like, Oh, maybethis brand isn't for me.
It is a craft and it's somethingthat I guess you'll never
exhaust.
You can always learn more from,
Estee (23:35):
You're so right and I don't think I fully realized
that before I started doing thison my own because I thought I'm
creative I can figure this outbut you know what I probably
could but it is such a longprocess and it's an expensive
process like you said you'retrialing things all the time
when you're a Startup brand andyou're a team of three people,
(23:56):
time is so precious and to goand monitor all these AB
newsletters and stuff.
That's that takes a day at leastto do something like that.
And that's something that a lotof times you don't have and the
money You also don't have themoney.
Juliet (24:08):
Yeah.
It's a real conflict, isn't it?
Because you, you want to learnto do it yourself because you
want to understand it, but thattakes twice as long than getting
somebody else who's an expert,who's got efficiencies because
they've already done it before,but paying someone else.
It takes money and then time tomanage that person.
And it's the forever that dancethat I don't think I've solved
yet.
Someone said, just throw moneyat people who are much better at
(24:29):
you at stuff.
It's well, when we're looking atbudgets, like how much, how, for
how long, and gut feeling for mehas been such a helpful thing.
It's so interesting what yousaid earlier about listening to
yourself and.
Checking in with your intuitionbecause if you're ha, if you're
exhausted, if you haven't sleptand you're feeling particularly
anxious about something, yourintuition might not be as on
point as it can be.
(24:49):
So yeah, that self care oh mygoodness.
I, yeah.
So important.
Estee (24:54):
It really is.
Juliet (24:55):
Has your social media strategy for mWater evolved
since you've launched?
Because it's been nearly justover two years, I think, since
you launched.
Has it changed dramatically?
Estee (25:05):
So you're speaking to me at an interesting time because I
feel like the first year wereally started to put those
roots down, figure out who weare, just getting in the rhythm
of posting every day.
That's a lot to do.
And then I think sometimes itdoes get away from you a little
bit.
And I, as the founder, there'sonly so many things I can really
have eyeballs on and Reallydelve into, I'm dealing with
(25:28):
things like logistics,packaging, legal, formulations,
sometimes when it gets to theInstagram grid, I'm like, just
post it, like we need to putsomething up.
I think now that it's been twoyears I'm really looking at it
now.
Okay.
What was this brand when Ilaunched it?
And where are we now?
And let's not think about toomuch about how we got here, but
(25:49):
let's just check in.
So I'm actually, I really wantto re strategize because I think
something's not working for me.
So I just need to re strategize.
And it's like one of thosethings where you're so involved
in it, every little detail,which really most people don't
even notice, but I notice.
And I'm excited about that.
And I think there's nothingwrong with reinventing yourself
and just going back to basics.
(26:11):
I think, for me, launching thebrand, I wanted to do everything
all at once.
That's who I am.
I think I can do it all.
But,
Juliet (26:18):
I think every founder is that and they go, yeah.
it's going to be great.
It's I'm really tired.
Estee (26:23):
Yeah.
Trade shows, events, pop upssales, collaborations, podcasts,
it's a lot.
And I was actually speaking toMargaret, who is the founder of
Amoravidza, amazing skincarebrand, and I was talking to her
about this and she said,sometimes you need to shrink to
grow.
(26:44):
And it hit me at just theperfect moment.
And I feel like that's what Iwant to do now.
I just want Stop with all thisextra stuff that I think is
really, cause you have people inyour ear saying you need to get
this product in everybody'shands and do this.
Let's just bring it back.
The world is not going to stopand let's just regroup for a
second here.
Juliet (27:04):
Well, then you're looking really closely then at
the foundation.
And if you get the foundationsright, that core base solid
thing that you're going tospringboard off, it's more
secure and.
Confident you are about that,the quicker you then will grow
when you're ready.
And less is more is the thingthat keeps coming up for me in
the last few months.
It's actually maybe our teamsize is great at four people and
we don't want any more peoplecause we've tried it.
(27:26):
It hasn't worked.
And what is the perfect clientmix?
Less is more and it's lessinvoices.
It's less payrolls.
and then you can focus on thingsand do it really well and enjoy
it.
And I think that's the thingthat maybe both of us have
struggled with this year isactually.
Taking this time to actuallyenjoy what we're doing, because
it's so much work that you canfeel overwhelmed and it doesn't
become enjoyable.
(27:46):
So for me, it's exactly thesame.
It's pulling it back, reallyconcentrating on what are we
trying to achieve?
So yeah, I think less, less ismore and having that core
foundation because when you arethen tired or overwhelmed,
that's what pulls you back.
I think it's that belief thatit's right.
Estee (28:03):
yeah.
And I just also wanted to add tothat point, which I think it can
be so difficult when you'relooking at Instagram and TikTok
and all these like brands withlike billions of orders in the
background and I'm doing thisand we're doing that.
It's very easy to think that'swhat I want.
I want to be the biggest bathand body care brand and I want
to launch in Sephora and I wantto do this.
And I do want all of thosethings, but.
(28:27):
It's okay to just start slow andI think sometimes I can get a
little carried away with myselflike running before I can walk
and actually there's No timelineon things.
You don't have to launch inevery single retailer.
The first year you launch abrand at first of all, that's
unrealistic anyway.
So, yeah I like what you justsaid and I think that's the
(28:49):
approach I'm going to take tothis next year coming up
Juliet (28:53):
With social media and mirror water, if there'd been
some pitfalls that you've lookedback on and gone, Oh, right.
Learned the hard way on thatone.
So
Estee (29:01):
many.
Oh gosh, just maybe postingthings that are a little off
brand, things that like maybenot everyone cares about, I
think, oh god, I think back to aparticular post and that should
not have been posted.
It's not a particular pitfall interms of something I've done,
and I regret but a difficultthing for me in terms of social
(29:22):
media is have finding newfollowers and like fans of the
brand obviously a lot of peoplefollow me and then go over to
the brand But I think thedifficult thing is then okay How
can we expand the community topeople who maybe haven't watched
me for years?
That's a really big challengeactually any advice i'm we'd
love to take it
Juliet (29:42):
Oh, the scalability of extricating the founder, it's in
every business that I've satnear and so works and we all
talk about it, that if it is tobecome bigger than you, it first
dawned on me, someone said tome, I said to her, like, how
does it feel to be selfemployed?
And she said, well, I'm not selfemployed.
I'm employed.
It's just by a company that Istarted.
I'm an employee and part of ateam just happened to be that
(30:04):
the person that started thebusiness was me a few years ago.
And I was like, so nice toseparate yourself, but it isn't
all you.
But that also means how do wefind clients if it isn't me
talking to people and how canthe business scale without me?
If I were to disappear for sixmonths, then what would happen?
So we've had lots of chatsrecently about it and it's
really exciting and actually tosee the team have these ideas
without me is what's soexciting.
(30:25):
So getting the right peoplearound you, I think is so
important.
It's a really interesting onebecause you have built it off
the back of your brand as yourown influence.
But I think it's such abeautiful qualitative product,
the word of mouth from yourexisting community and your
clients with beauty speciallywill fly.
I have no doubt.
Estee (30:42):
Thank you.
I think it's, starting to getthere.
And I think also a retailpartners help with that.
Somebody walks into Space NK,they see the product, they don't
know who founded it.
So I'm hopeful.
Juliet (30:53):
And is there a golden piece of advice that you would
give to a new founder thinkingabout starting a brand?
Estee (30:59):
Oh, gosh, have a good business plan.
Juliet (31:02):
Really?
Estee (31:03):
Yeah, that was really the ticket for me.
And if anyone's launched acompany, you redo that business
plan 800, 000 times a year and,all of that.
But I think to have that planand to really map it out, have a
deck look at it, refer to it.
I think that's really important.
If that's not so much like aphilosophical piece of advice,
(31:25):
it's more of a practical thing,but I do think it's really
important.
Juliet (31:28):
Amazing.
And one thing we do is from theguest from the previous episode
has a question for the nextguest and it was Black Tomatoes
founder, Tom Marchant, who's inthe travel space and actually he
mentioned something on hispodcast, I need to go and look
up, he said, Oh, we do thesetrips where we get people lost
and we send them out into thewilderness and they can't be
looking at their phones.
I was like, take me on thattrip.
His advice, cause we had a verysort of heart to heart
(31:50):
conversation as well.
And he said, when was theclosest moment you thought you
just got to stop?
And
Estee (31:56):
what was it that pulled you back from it?
And he did say, everyone hasthem regularly.
And it's what was the momentthat you were like, you know
what?
This has got to end.
Oh, no, there's a glimmer.
I'm going to follow that.
So for you, is there a pointwhere you're like, no.
You know what?
I have never had that feelingfor the whole point of this
until I want to say last week.
(32:18):
So, yeah, last week sometimesthings just don't work out and
when multiple things don't workout and things are getting
stressful and you just thinkGod, is there hope here?
That's the, yeah, one more,don't hit me now because I'm
about to lose it.
I think that was the first timeI ever felt that in two years
(32:41):
was last week.
And I actually, for the firsttime, took yEstéerday off and
the weekend off and I've justbeen, I don't even know what
I've been doing.
I've been in a daze.
You're talking to me today, I'vecome out the other side, which
is good.
But I think things do get on topof you.
And I think the glimmer of hopeis I have an amazing team and
(33:05):
they believe in it.
And I've always believed in it.
And I think sometimes it's okayto have a little wobble, but I
think sometimes it's is this youhear of so many brands failing
every single day, like they're,it's really difficult, but yeah,
last week was tough.
I didn't know if I was going tocome out of it, but I'm out of
it.
And I think it's just you'rerunning on such low energy.
(33:25):
I think like when you're afounder, you're pulling from
wherever you can to get throughand it's resilience.
Basically having a company isresilience and it's rejection
every single day.
It's eventually going to knockyou down, and for all of the
highs, there are a hundred lows.
So, I just need another littlehigh.
I think that's what I need.
Another little hit of somethingsoon, please, God.
Juliet (33:48):
It's so true.
It's that sort of validation.
I've had a few of those tidalwaves that kind of get you and
you're like underwater swim.
Okay, come back up another one.
And then you're like, I don'tthink there's another straw that
can break this camel's back.
It's broken.
But then something will happenthat will go, Oh my goodness.
Okay.
It's okay.
It's like for me, someone Ireally respect in our industry
replied about being a mentor forme.
(34:09):
And I was like.
She replied, even if she doesn'tdo it, the fact she's given it
the time of day is amazing.
Estee (34:15):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Little things like that.
Actually, I messaged Bobbi Brownon Instagram and I said, can I
like talk to you about my brand?
She said, I've seen it onInstagram.
It looks great.
I was like, that was the thingthat pulled me out.
Juliet (34:26):
Bobbi Brown said, great.
I mean, retire now.
You've You've done it.
it.
Estee (34:31):
She doesn't know the ins and outs, just that, that's
Juliet (34:34):
But to me, that's not Bobbi Brown saying it's great,
which is amazing.
It's you having that tiny littlebit of energy left to message
Bobbi Brown.
And you did that, not her.
You made yourself go,
Estee (34:46):
And be willing to get rejected again.
Juliet (34:48):
yes.
And also take potentiallyanother hit.
Cause the more you put outthere, the more potentially you
can come back and knock you.
It is bloody hard.
And yeah it's.
For me, people make or break itand that resilience, I was
thinking when you were sayingabout resilience and rejection,
I didn't think I could hateanything more than online
dating, but sometimes with selfemployment, I'm like, this is
(35:08):
even harder.
Please don't make me do this.
Estee (35:10):
Oh my gosh, I loved dating.
I'm engaged now, but dating ismy favorite thing in the world,
but it's all over for me now.
Juliet (35:18):
Oh my goodness.
Okay.
Right.
This is a whole separate podcastepisode where you can mentor me
on that.
Estee (35:24):
I love it.
I don't know why.
Juliet (35:25):
Do you have a question for our next guest?
Estee (35:28):
I'm just really trying to think and be honest because I
had a question prepared, but nowI'm in this, what do I really
want?
I guess my next question is whatis really the dream for your
company and when do you think,if ever, would you be satisfied
with where it is?
Juliet (35:47):
oh, that is a good one.
Okay.
I'm
Estee (35:50):
because I think a lot of us are like, you're always, I
always see this quote where it'syeah, it's never enough kind of
thing.
And it's probably not.
But I'm curious to see if thenext guest has reached inner
peace.
Juliet (36:02):
Yeah.
Okay.
Really interesting.
Thank you so much, Estée.
It's been fascinating talking toyou and thank you for being so
honest about everything.
think
Estee (36:09):
Thank you so much for having me.
I think this has beentherapeutic for me because like
I said, I've been like goingthrough something.
So I think this is just what Ineeded to get on with the day.
I really hope you've enjoyedthis conversation, you can find
a recap of all the advice sokindly shared by guests in the
show notes, along with ourcontact details.
We'd love it if you could rateand review or share this podcast
because it really does helpother people discover it.
(36:30):
To incentivize this a little, Iwould very happily offer you one
of our PR guides on how to shareeditorial coverage legally, just
DM us or send us an email.
Hello at fallowfieldmason.
com with review in the title andwe'll share it on.
Welcome to season 10 of How ToStart Up, the podcast helping
you start and scale yourbusiness with advice from
entrepreneurs on what to do now,next, or never when scaling your
company.
This season, we're focusing onall things brand.
So you'll hear from a series ofamazing entrepreneurs on what
they've learned in their ownjourneys.
hosted by me, JulietFallowfield, founder of the B
(00:20):
Corp certified PR andcommunications consultancy,
Fallowfield and Mason.
Our mission is to enable you toearn your communications
in-House with a long-term view.
With Statista reporting, thereare over 35 million Instagram
users in the UK.
Social media platforms areclearly a powerful tool to build
brand awareness and convertfollowers into loyal customers.
(00:42):
Given this season is a focus onall things branding, I was keen
to speak to an expert contentcreator.
In this episode, we hear fromEstée LaLonde, CEO and founder
of body care brand, MirrorWater.
Estéee has enjoyed a long careerworking within social media,
building a following of over677, 000 followers before
founding her brand in 2021,which was already a master
(01:03):
following of 35, 000.
She shares in this episode, heradvice on how to build your
brand through social media, whydoing the initial creative work
on your brand is crucial forsuccess and how DMing one of
your idols, in this case, BobbyBrown, can be the motivation you
need to keep going.
Juliet (01:20):
Thank you, Estée so much for joining How To Start Up
today.
Especially for our brandingseason, which kicks off in 2024.
So if we're recording end ofNovember, 2023, so it's not
away.
Um, But given I've seen you onInstagram, I followed you for
years.
I saw your launch of Mirrorwaterand oh my good God, is it a
delicious, amazing brand youhave built such an incredible
(01:42):
brand so quickly,congratulations.
Estee (01:44):
Thank you.
I feel like I needed to hearthat because there are so many
ups and downs and I feel likeI'm in a bit of a down right
now, so thank you for sayingthat.
Juliet (01:52):
It's so interesting because every person I speak to
and everyone I meet in the coworking office I use as well is
like, it's a roller coaster.
You have to be all right withthat.
And I'm like, I'm not, but I'mat peace with the fact it
exists.
But I'm sorry to hear thatyou're in one of those down
bits, but the good news is itmeans you're just about to be on
Estee (02:08):
Exactly.
And that's what I keep tellingmyself when I'm having like
anxiety fever dreams at night.
I'm like, it's only gonna getbetter.
Juliet (02:15):
Yeah, Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And I think, oh my goodness,there's so much I want to talk
to you about because given therise of social media and links
to mental health, looking at theethos behind mirror water in the
sense it looks back to mirrorwork, you're looking in the
mirror, you're doing the selfreflection.
It's sort of the antithesis ofsocial media, isn't it?
(02:36):
So do you maybe want tointroduce the brand and why you
started
Estee (02:39):
Definitely.
So, my name is Estée.
First of all, I am originallyfrom Canada.
For those people listening thathear an accent, I'm originally
from Canada, but I've lived inLondon for 15 years, which is
absolutely wild because I don'tknow where the time went, I feel
like just yEstéerday I movedhere, but anyway, in that time,
I discovered the world ofblogging and YouTube and all of
(03:02):
those things when it was verynew to the world.
Not everyone was doing it, thereweren't that many beauty
YouTubers in the world, and nowof course there's hundreds of
billions of creators, but it wasa very different time.
And the reason I really lookedto blogging, was so I could find
a sense of community in a placewhere I just moved.
(03:25):
I moved to this new, completelydifferent world, and I felt
super homesick.
And as you alluded to, I talk alot about mental health, and
it's something that's followedme through my life ever since I
was Honestly, my first memory offeeling depressed, I was around
six years old.
So it's one of those things thatI didn't realize at the time,
obviously when I'm six, butlooking back, I see those
(03:46):
patterns as early as six.
So when I moved to this newcountry, I felt really lost.
I felt I didn't have my place tobelong, I didn't have any
family, I didn't have anyfriends, and I discovered this
world of beauty and vlogging,and for me, it was so much more
about the lipstick and the facemoisturizer.
It was a way to connect withpeople in this new place that I
(04:09):
decided to live, and that's howmy career started.
It was really organic, I wasn'tlooking to start a career
through social media, it wasreally a hobby that I was doing
in my spare time.
And slowly, I gained a followingand decided to quit my part time
jobs and try blogging for thefirst year.
I said I was going to givemyself a year to really try
(04:31):
this.
And luckily it panned outbecause I don't know what I
would do otherwise.
So for the past sort of 14years, I've been doing that.
So I've worked in the beautyworld.
I've tried every single productunder the sun.
I've had some amazing brandcollaborations and I've done
that more on an endorsement dealbasis where, you know, a brand
will come to me.
(04:52):
They want me to promote thelaunch of their new product and
I put that in a YouTube videoBut I've always wanted to really
have my own brand my own Thingto really sink my teeth into I
had been to so many founderevents where you know Nicola
from Neom was launching her newcandle and we were being told
(05:13):
how she did that.
And then, Margaret fromAmoravidza would launch a new
product and I would be there.
And I just, I thought it wasamazing that these women were
creating these brands.
And I just always wanted to knowmore and more.
So for me, it was always lessabout the beauty product and
more about how did you get thatmade?
Like, where did you source thepackaging?
Like, how did you actually makea product?
Juliet (05:34):
So entrepreneurial brain already ticking of like, hang
on, they're doing it.
What were you just waiting forthat kind of moment of clarity
as to what your product wouldbe?
You always knew it was going tohappen, but in 2021, what was it
that made you go that, that'sit?
Estee (05:50):
To be honest, it was the pandemic.
I think, like you said, you hitthe nail on the head.
I didn't know what that productwas going to be.
I didn't want to just launchsomething for the sake of
launching something.
I knew that if I launchedsomething, I would have one go
at it.
And it had to be good.
And I couldn't really find thatniche.
And I was looking, okay?
(06:10):
I was really looking.
But when the pandemic happened Ihad just gone through a breakup.
It was brutal.
I was in my 30s.
I had just adopted my littledoggy, who, if you're watching
this, you can see her in thebackground.
She's from Greece and she was alittle anxious mess.
She wouldn't even look at me inthe eyes.
She was so scared of me.
And I just felt like my worldwas collapsing.
(06:32):
And I thought, what am I doing?
I'm living in the UK.
Like my family's not here.
And during that time when I wasfeeling really depressed and
stressed, I found myself turningto the ritual of bathing a lot,
and that has always been in mylife.
But especially during thepandemic, I was like in my bath
every single day.
And.
For those people that strugglewith mental health, you'll know
(06:55):
that sometimes even having ashower or having a bath seems
like the biggest hurdle.
And it's like something you justdon't even have the energy for
that.
So for me to have a bath inthose days, I wasn't really
working very much, all my workhad dried up during the
pandemic.
Nobody was paying me to put alipstick in a video at that
time.
And I just thought, Oh God, whatwould I do without having a
bath?
And then I just started thinkingabout.
(07:16):
bathing and how much I loved it.
And I just went into this rabbithole of researching the benefits
of bathing and why I liked it somuch and products that I could
buy to upgrade my bath timeritual.
And I started to realize,really, there weren't that many
brands doing it in a way thatfelt aligned to who I was, a 30
something burnt out millennial.
(07:39):
I felt like a lot of the brandswere maybe targeting an older
demographic.
So that was a light bulb momentfor me.
Juliet (07:44):
Yeah, amazing.
Well, thank you for doing itbecause I know a lot of people
benefit from it as well, but Ilove the fact that you've
launched a brand that's sohonest about why you've done it
and the benefits.
It's not necessarily thecosmetic benefit.
It's the ritual.
It's the experience.
It's the self care.
It's the recognition that youneed some help and that is so
important for anyone in any jobever, but especially I think for
(08:08):
entrepreneurs, freelancers,contractors, who don't have the
security of a work community ora regular paycheck, so I think
it's a huge achievement for whatyou've done.
Have you, and this is a bigquestion, have you enjoyed
Estee (08:21):
yes, I can answer that very quickly.
It's the best thing I've everdone.
It's the hardest thing I've everdone way harder than anyone
could ever prepare you for andI've been prepared because like
I said, I've got access to somany founders and everyone says,
this is very hard and it reallyis worse than you think but that
(08:42):
being said I've I was really upfor a challenge.
I can make a YouTube video withmy eyes closed by now and I was
looking for something to get meout of my comfort zone.
I love growing, I love beingchallenged and doing things that
I'd never done before.
I didn't even know what the termMOQ meant.
Minimum order quantity.
That's not my world.
So I just was learning all ofthese things that I felt like a
(09:04):
fish out of water
Juliet (09:05):
Yeah, it's that thrill, isn't it?
And I think I hit the kind ofyear and a half mark and I.
was conscious of the fact thatthat learning curve that was so
steep of I've learned how tobuild a website, I've learned
how to set up Xero, I now knowhow to employ people, I know how
to fire people, like all of thatlearning wasn't plateauing.
It's still pretty significant.
There's always more you're goingto learn, but the adrenaline was
wearing off and it was wearingthin and that burnout is really
(09:30):
real.
And that's something I'd love totalk to you in a little bit
later on about.
That side of the business, butgiven the season is all around
branding, the fact you've builtan amazing brand through social
media, I, I think first andforemost, but correct me if I'm
wrong on that, but how did yougo about your brand?
How did you
Estee (09:47):
Well, for me, branding is so important.
If you don't have a strongbranding, you might as well
forget about it.
That's the way I think.
I love branding.
visual things.
I am a visual person, butequally, sometimes I feel like
you need the visual side, butyou also need to be a realistic
of what works on social media.
So I feel like we're at a nicespace between, being an
(10:09):
aspirational designy type ofbrand, but also, we can hop on
TikTok and have a good time.
So it's been actually quiteinteresting trying to bridge
those two worlds.
But I started first of all bycreating mood boards, so that
was the most fun part and I wishI could go back in time and just
spend a few more weeks doingthat because it's so important
(10:31):
and luckily I had time on myside because it was during the
pandemic.
And all I had was time and itwas a really creative period of,
I would have fresh flowers on mydesk and I'd be listening to my
ambient music and I'd getPinterest up and just be super
creative.
And that is really important.
So don't rush that phase.
If you're someone listening,who's thinking about starting
(10:52):
something, even something assimple as water rippling, what
color is the water?
How big are the ripples?
Really learning about what youfeel in your gut, and I think
intuition is super importantwhen it comes to branding and
that's why you have to take careof yourself because if you don't
take care of yourself, it'sreally difficult to be able to
know what your intuition issaying.
(11:14):
I think so many of us are.
out of touch with our innerworlds and I'm actually
experiencing that right nowwhere I just feel a little
distant from myself and it's soeasy to get away from yourself
when we're running around anddoing eight million things but
that branding period I feel likeyou just need to take yourself
to a cabin and forget the worldfor a minute and get to the
(11:37):
essence of what you want thebrand to
Juliet (11:39):
Well, I mean, this might be a stupid question, but some
people at the beginning, it canfeel completely overwhelming.
It's like, I've got to launch aproduct and I have to get it
salvages immediately.
And it's like, well, step one, Ipresume it is the core of the
product.
What does the product do andwhat is it going to serve to
your clients?
What problem is it going tosolve for them?
Did you get your ingredients andthe kind of, practical element
of what the product was going toserve before you then did the
(12:01):
design,
Estee (12:02):
I did the design before I did the products.
So, I basically created allthese mood boards, and I came up
with the name.
I knew I wanted that name, and Iknew I wanted this particular
vibe.
And then the first thing I didwas found a designer.
Her name is Manueli, she'samazing, I couldn't have
launched the brand without her.
And she took my ideas, which isreally a bunch of nothingness,
(12:22):
and she turned it into whateveryone sees now as Mirror
Water.
So she's really instrumental increating the brand.
So I would say It's worth themoney to hire someone who has a
design eye and can turn aconcept into a real thing.
so that was the first
Juliet (12:37):
because the concept you can get really lost because it's
so huge and it's so endless, youcan go, go, go.
It's, it's, It's hard to containyour enthusiasm as well.
Finding someone, I think in anyelement of business to pull you
out of the weeds and help.
See big picture and go, and I'mgoing to realize this for you.
So did you meet her and justhave a really good connection
that you knew she couldtranslate this for you?
Estee (12:59):
Well, I was recommended her through my friend Yenna.
She's the founder of somethingcalled Gel Cream and I've known
her for years.
And she said, you should checkout this girl, Manuely.
I worked with her before and Ijust knew it.
I knew before I even met herthat it would be aligned.
And then when she came back tome with the logo, I thought.
That's not what I was picturing,but it's even better than what I
was picturing.
(13:19):
And I think when you're startingsomething, you really have to
give people the freedom to dowhat they do best.
The trust has to be there,obviously.
And you can't just trustblindly, but equally, if you
hire someone and you believe inthem, then you have to let them
fly with that.
And that's how I approach all ofmy team members within reason.
Juliet (13:39):
Someone said, let people be good.
If you're paying them the money,just let them be better than you
at things.
And I was like, yes, freedom.
And that's how you want to betreated by your colleagues as
well.
You have obviously built anincredible Instagram following.
I think we often forget thatpeople start with blogging and
the rise of social media hasbeen a quick one.
I was in an interview the otherday with Peony Lim and she said
(14:00):
I was a fashion student at theCourthold and she said I just
started blogging and now we allthink of her as an Instagrammer.
And the same with you, you'vegot 677, 000 followers on
Instagram.
Mirror Water has 35, 000followers on Instagram.
That is a big number.
How, first of all, do you managethe anxiety around that?
Because I'm sure that is a realthing.
Estee (14:19):
a great question, and I think the anxiety has really
changed over time.
I didn't have any anxiety in thebeginning because I was young
and it was all very exciting andI didn't really understand what
that meant.
Now that I'm a little bit olderand I recently just got engaged
and I'm excited to hopefullystart a family soon, that number
and that feeling is morestressful than probably ever
(14:42):
before for me.
Just because I'm really Into myprivacy.
And a lot of my friends nowdon't do this.
Whereas in the beginning, all ofmy friends were creators.
So it was normal to post abouteverything that you did.
But now, a lot of the peoplethat I hang out with, I'm the
odd one out by postingeverything.
And it feels more unnatural tome now, than it did then.
(15:04):
That being said, I don't knowwhat I would do without it.
Because if I don't post everyday, I'm like, I don't know what
to do with myself.
It's become such a habit.
And I love it.
Juliet (15:14):
Yeah, it's your job and it's what you get paid to do.
And was it a case you just builtan organic following year on
year and you're putting contentthat was getting engagement that
lead to more shares and more Isthat how it sort of came about
or were you really going afterit and really strategic about
building that
Estee (15:28):
It was a mix of both.
I think in the sense that I wasstrategic because I was posting
consistently, I was going toevents and I was meeting other
people, so I guess there's astrategic element there, but I
wasn't doing things.
necessarily just for viewseither.
I didn't have like that bigboom.
Wow.
Like she just gained 200,000followers.
(15:49):
I never had that.
It's always been a consistentthing.
And I think just over time, alot happens in 15 years.
I've met a lot of people in 15years.
So.
When I walk into a room, I knowa lot of people there because
I've seen them 800,000 times.
It's not something that justhappens overnight.
It's relationships that youbuild and cultivate over time.
And it's interesting because Isee a lot of TikTok people or
(16:13):
whatever now, and they get hugeovernight.
in a way I envy it because wow,that's A lot different than like
working for 15 years.
Well, I know it's just differentto the way I experienced it, but
I can't do what they do I don'tknow how to do what they do
That's such a skill and i'm likei'm fascinated by it and I can't
(16:35):
really get my brain around whatthey do So, fair play to them.
That's its own entity but I justwonder how they would deal with
that sort of overnight success,but That being said, they don't
necessarily have the legacy andthe connections of, knowing the
journalists and knowing allthese people, but I guess in
this day and age it doesn'treally matter as much.
Juliet (16:55):
mean, it's so weird.
And I think a lot of peoplethink they're experts in
Instagram and, TikTok and socialmedia.
And I spoke to Jeremy Jaunceyonce, founder of Beautiful
Destinations.
He said, if anyone tells youthey understand the algorithm,
they're lying.
It changes every half an hourand it's like, okay, we can be
at peace.
that All of us are testing andtrying and learning, but going
back to Mirror Water and itslaunch, how fundamental was
(17:17):
social media in the launch ofMIRROR
Estee (17:18):
WATER It was everything.
It was really the only tool thatI had.
I think, of course, in so manyways, because I had my platform
that I built, it was a huge legup in so many ways, obviously,
and a lot of people don't havethat.
So I feel really grateful forthat.
But on the other hand, You havea lot of extra eyeballs looking
at you and not wanting you tofail, but waiting for you to
(17:40):
fail, I would say, it feels likesometimes.
I mean, that's maybe my anxietytalking, but that's how I felt.
Juliet (17:46):
You've got more to lose.
Estee (17:47):
I felt an extra pressure to launch something because
everybody's watching.
So, that,
Juliet (17:54):
And you care about your followers and you don't want to
do them wrong.
You want to give them somethingthat you really genuinely think
will benefit them, which iscoming from an authentic place.
I have to say you're the leastinfluency influencer ever.
You're so genuine and
Estee (18:08):
Oh, I wish I could be more influency because
everyone's always telling melike you need to get better
about speaking about yourselfAnd you need to get more
confident.
Like this is just who I am.
Okay?
But thank you But social mediawas everything and I started
building this community Before Ieven knew what products I was
going to have.
(18:28):
So I started the mirror waterInstagram.
It was just a vibe it was justpictures of Bathrooms and yeah,
I know
Juliet (18:36):
I remember watching going, what is going on here?
This is really
Estee (18:39):
I want to get back to that.
Actually.
That's something i'm working onUh, but that was very exciting
and people were like, what isshe doing?
What is she gonna launch?
There was all this speculation.
I don't think people thought Idon't know, but I don't think
people knew the extent to whichI'd been working on something.
I think maybe they just thoughtit was going to be like a mood
board or a podcast or somethinglike that.
(19:00):
I don't know, but I don't thinkthey thought I was going to
launch a physical product.
So that was quite surprising, Ithink, to a lot of people.
And honestly, to myself.
Juliet (19:08):
Well, it's working, so it's great and I love it.
Um, And I think maybe forlisteners, it's important to say
that you were coming from aworld where you were posting
organic content on your ownInstagram handle, you're working
with brands as journalist would,as an influencer would to
product and launches that youcould talk about and give your
opinion on.
So it's, it's much more of a PRpiece of content.
(19:28):
Now you've got a brand channelwith.
It's products you're selling andyou may have built a website and
linked it to Shopify orsomething else where you can
commercialize your Instagram forMirrorwater in a different way
that you were commercializingyour Instagram for Estéee
Lauderon.
I a lot of people get confused.
It's like, we want to work withinfluencers and we want to work
on social media.
It's like, there's a differencebetween what type of content
(19:49):
you're putting out there andbuilding.
And could you maybe give a quickoverview is the difference
between organic and paid social?
Estee (19:56):
well, first of all, running the brand's Instagram is
completely different to runningmy own personal Instagram.
And I thought I would be prettynatural at doing the brand's
Instagram, but actually it's acompletely different skill set
and it's a lot harder.
So it's very hard for a brand toget Instagram followers and
likes and comments because it'sa brand and not a lot of people
(20:17):
engage with a brand.
So that's been a huge learningcurve there.
So I'll just park that thought,but obviously organic social is
unpaid.
And that's something that again,because I did it for so long, 15
years, it's so natural for me topromote a product for free.
I've done, I do that all thetime.
That's what I usually do.
Sometimes a bigger brand willcome to me and say we would love
(20:39):
to pay you to get thisguaranteed content.
And that's great.
But for the most part, for myentire career, I was just.
Gifted products, and if I likedit, I would speak about it, and
it wasn't really whether or notthey would pay me or not.
I think that's changed a lot nowEspecially with the rise of UGC
creators.
That is something that I wish Ithought of back then, because it
is genius! And I was doing thatfor free to grow my own
(21:04):
audience.
So UGC creators, for anyonelistening, user generated
content, all brands are lookingfor natural looking content
without having to pay a hugepremium to pay an influencer,
5,000 pounds or something likethat.
So you'll pay a UGC creator like500 pounds and they'll create a
bunch of assets for you to makeit look more natural.
(21:26):
That's a whole other world,isn't it?
Juliet (21:28):
Yeah and also when you're looking at your mirror
water channel, you can.
Boost posts and you can putmoney behind posts and pay for
it to reach people rather thanorganic content where it can
just get to people through thealgorithm and people engaging
and sharing means more Instagramthinks more people want to
engage and share so it'll serveit up more often and it's so
(21:48):
interesting because you're doingthe both, you're
Estee (21:50):
Yeah, and also, paid media is a whole other thing
that I need to really get into.
But just because you put 20pounds behind a post you might
get more likes, whatever, butthat doesn't necessarily mean
More purchases, and we have beenworking with a paid media
specialist, and we've beentesting and trialing and putting
money behind some of our posts,anyway, it's not really
(22:11):
converting, and there's an artto that as well, you have to
really think about the creativebehind the paid media that
you're putting out there as wellthat's a whole, that's a full
time job in itself which isreally difficult,
Juliet (22:24):
Well, in the world of marketing, my day job is in
communications and we enablefounders to own their own PR and
storytelling and it's comingfrom an in house role before
seeing that creative directorspeak to the journalist.
It's dreamy and that's what Ilove, but there's so many parts
of the marketing bucket that alot of people like.
Well, I can design my own logo,I can do my own paid social, I
(22:45):
can do my own PR.
You actually have to learn theseskills and there's a reason
there's lots of big brands thathave big marketing departments.
It shouldn't just be dismissedas something that you can just
do off the cuff.
And a lot of people have saidthis as well, is you have to
test and learn, you have to trythings, see what works, see what
doesn't work, learn from it, A,B test, everything.
So.
Do one thing A and another thingB and then look at the results
(23:07):
and compare them to see whatworks in your newsletter.
Send out, split it in half, A,B, test it.
Look at the content and contentis king and it just, oh, we
should say queen.
It is amazing how that feedsinto your brand that feeds into
the loyalty of your follower oryour client, or even the repeat
client, because you startputting content out that jars
(23:27):
with them and be like, Oh, maybethis brand isn't for me.
It is a craft and it's somethingthat I guess you'll never
exhaust.
You can always learn more from,
Estee (23:35):
You're so right and I don't think I fully realized
that before I started doing thison my own because I thought I'm
creative I can figure this outbut you know what I probably
could but it is such a longprocess and it's an expensive
process like you said you'retrialing things all the time
when you're a Startup brand andyou're a team of three people,
(23:56):
time is so precious and to goand monitor all these AB
newsletters and stuff.
That's that takes a day at leastto do something like that.
And that's something that a lotof times you don't have and the
money You also don't have themoney.
Juliet (24:08):
Yeah.
It's a real conflict, isn't it?
Because you, you want to learnto do it yourself because you
want to understand it, but thattakes twice as long than getting
somebody else who's an expert,who's got efficiencies because
they've already done it before,but paying someone else.
It takes money and then time tomanage that person.
And it's the forever that dancethat I don't think I've solved
yet.
Someone said, just throw moneyat people who are much better at
(24:29):
you at stuff.
It's well, when we're looking atbudgets, like how much, how, for
how long, and gut feeling for mehas been such a helpful thing.
It's so interesting what yousaid earlier about listening to
yourself and.
Checking in with your intuitionbecause if you're ha, if you're
exhausted, if you haven't sleptand you're feeling particularly
anxious about something, yourintuition might not be as on
point as it can be.
(24:49):
So yeah, that self care oh mygoodness.
I, yeah.
So important.
Estee (24:54):
It really is.
Juliet (24:55):
Has your social media strategy for mWater evolved
since you've launched?
Because it's been nearly justover two years, I think, since
you launched.
Has it changed dramatically?
Estee (25:05):
So you're speaking to me at an interesting time because I
feel like the first year wereally started to put those
roots down, figure out who weare, just getting in the rhythm
of posting every day.
That's a lot to do.
And then I think sometimes itdoes get away from you a little
bit.
And I, as the founder, there'sonly so many things I can really
have eyeballs on and Reallydelve into, I'm dealing with
(25:28):
things like logistics,packaging, legal, formulations,
sometimes when it gets to theInstagram grid, I'm like, just
post it, like we need to putsomething up.
I think now that it's been twoyears I'm really looking at it
now.
Okay.
What was this brand when Ilaunched it?
And where are we now?
And let's not think about toomuch about how we got here, but
(25:49):
let's just check in.
So I'm actually, I really wantto re strategize because I think
something's not working for me.
So I just need to re strategize.
And it's like one of thosethings where you're so involved
in it, every little detail,which really most people don't
even notice, but I notice.
And I'm excited about that.
And I think there's nothingwrong with reinventing yourself
and just going back to basics.
(26:11):
I think, for me, launching thebrand, I wanted to do everything
all at once.
That's who I am.
I think I can do it all.
But,
Juliet (26:18):
I think every founder is that and they go, yeah.
it's going to be great.
It's I'm really tired.
Estee (26:23):
Yeah.
Trade shows, events, pop upssales, collaborations, podcasts,
it's a lot.
And I was actually speaking toMargaret, who is the founder of
Amoravidza, amazing skincarebrand, and I was talking to her
about this and she said,sometimes you need to shrink to
grow.
(26:44):
And it hit me at just theperfect moment.
And I feel like that's what Iwant to do now.
I just want Stop with all thisextra stuff that I think is
really, cause you have people inyour ear saying you need to get
this product in everybody'shands and do this.
Let's just bring it back.
The world is not going to stopand let's just regroup for a
second here.
Juliet (27:04):
Well, then you're looking really closely then at
the foundation.
And if you get the foundationsright, that core base solid
thing that you're going tospringboard off, it's more
secure and.
Confident you are about that,the quicker you then will grow
when you're ready.
And less is more is the thingthat keeps coming up for me in
the last few months.
It's actually maybe our teamsize is great at four people and
we don't want any more peoplecause we've tried it.
(27:26):
It hasn't worked.
And what is the perfect clientmix?
Less is more and it's lessinvoices.
It's less payrolls.
and then you can focus on thingsand do it really well and enjoy
it.
And I think that's the thingthat maybe both of us have
struggled with this year isactually.
Taking this time to actuallyenjoy what we're doing, because
it's so much work that you canfeel overwhelmed and it doesn't
become enjoyable.
(27:46):
So for me, it's exactly thesame.
It's pulling it back, reallyconcentrating on what are we
trying to achieve?
So yeah, I think less, less ismore and having that core
foundation because when you arethen tired or overwhelmed,
that's what pulls you back.
I think it's that belief thatit's right.
Estee (28:03):
yeah.
And I just also wanted to add tothat point, which I think it can
be so difficult when you'relooking at Instagram and TikTok
and all these like brands withlike billions of orders in the
background and I'm doing thisand we're doing that.
It's very easy to think that'swhat I want.
I want to be the biggest bathand body care brand and I want
to launch in Sephora and I wantto do this.
And I do want all of thosethings, but.
(28:27):
It's okay to just start slow andI think sometimes I can get a
little carried away with myselflike running before I can walk
and actually there's No timelineon things.
You don't have to launch inevery single retailer.
The first year you launch abrand at first of all, that's
unrealistic anyway.
So, yeah I like what you justsaid and I think that's the
(28:49):
approach I'm going to take tothis next year coming up
Juliet (28:53):
With social media and mirror water, if there'd been
some pitfalls that you've lookedback on and gone, Oh, right.
Learned the hard way on thatone.
So
Estee (29:01):
many.
Oh gosh, just maybe postingthings that are a little off
brand, things that like maybenot everyone cares about, I
think, oh god, I think back to aparticular post and that should
not have been posted.
It's not a particular pitfall interms of something I've done,
and I regret but a difficultthing for me in terms of social
(29:22):
media is have finding newfollowers and like fans of the
brand obviously a lot of peoplefollow me and then go over to
the brand But I think thedifficult thing is then okay How
can we expand the community topeople who maybe haven't watched
me for years?
That's a really big challengeactually any advice i'm we'd
love to take it
Juliet (29:42):
Oh, the scalability of extricating the founder, it's in
every business that I've satnear and so works and we all
talk about it, that if it is tobecome bigger than you, it first
dawned on me, someone said tome, I said to her, like, how
does it feel to be selfemployed?
And she said, well, I'm not selfemployed.
I'm employed.
It's just by a company that Istarted.
I'm an employee and part of ateam just happened to be that
(30:04):
the person that started thebusiness was me a few years ago.
And I was like, so nice toseparate yourself, but it isn't
all you.
But that also means how do wefind clients if it isn't me
talking to people and how canthe business scale without me?
If I were to disappear for sixmonths, then what would happen?
So we've had lots of chatsrecently about it and it's
really exciting and actually tosee the team have these ideas
without me is what's soexciting.
(30:25):
So getting the right peoplearound you, I think is so
important.
It's a really interesting onebecause you have built it off
the back of your brand as yourown influence.
But I think it's such abeautiful qualitative product,
the word of mouth from yourexisting community and your
clients with beauty speciallywill fly.
I have no doubt.
Estee (30:42):
Thank you.
I think it's, starting to getthere.
And I think also a retailpartners help with that.
Somebody walks into Space NK,they see the product, they don't
know who founded it.
So I'm hopeful.
Juliet (30:53):
And is there a golden piece of advice that you would
give to a new founder thinkingabout starting a brand?
Estee (30:59):
Oh, gosh, have a good business plan.
Juliet (31:02):
Really?
Estee (31:03):
Yeah, that was really the ticket for me.
And if anyone's launched acompany, you redo that business
plan 800, 000 times a year and,all of that.
But I think to have that planand to really map it out, have a
deck look at it, refer to it.
I think that's really important.
If that's not so much like aphilosophical piece of advice,
(31:25):
it's more of a practical thing,but I do think it's really
important.
Juliet (31:28):
Amazing.
And one thing we do is from theguest from the previous episode
has a question for the nextguest and it was Black Tomatoes
founder, Tom Marchant, who's inthe travel space and actually he
mentioned something on hispodcast, I need to go and look
up, he said, Oh, we do thesetrips where we get people lost
and we send them out into thewilderness and they can't be
looking at their phones.
I was like, take me on thattrip.
His advice, cause we had a verysort of heart to heart
(31:50):
conversation as well.
And he said, when was theclosest moment you thought you
just got to stop?
And
Estee (31:56):
what was it that pulled you back from it?
And he did say, everyone hasthem regularly.
And it's what was the momentthat you were like, you know
what?
This has got to end.
Oh, no, there's a glimmer.
I'm going to follow that.
So for you, is there a pointwhere you're like, no.
You know what?
I have never had that feelingfor the whole point of this
until I want to say last week.
(32:18):
So, yeah, last week sometimesthings just don't work out and
when multiple things don't workout and things are getting
stressful and you just thinkGod, is there hope here?
That's the, yeah, one more,don't hit me now because I'm
about to lose it.
I think that was the first timeI ever felt that in two years
(32:41):
was last week.
And I actually, for the firsttime, took yEstéerday off and
the weekend off and I've justbeen, I don't even know what
I've been doing.
I've been in a daze.
You're talking to me today, I'vecome out the other side, which
is good.
But I think things do get on topof you.
And I think the glimmer of hopeis I have an amazing team and
(33:05):
they believe in it.
And I've always believed in it.
And I think sometimes it's okayto have a little wobble, but I
think sometimes it's is this youhear of so many brands failing
every single day, like they're,it's really difficult, but yeah,
last week was tough.
I didn't know if I was going tocome out of it, but I'm out of
it.
And I think it's just you'rerunning on such low energy.
(33:25):
I think like when you're afounder, you're pulling from
wherever you can to get throughand it's resilience.
Basically having a company isresilience and it's rejection
every single day.
It's eventually going to knockyou down, and for all of the
highs, there are a hundred lows.
So, I just need another littlehigh.
I think that's what I need.
Another little hit of somethingsoon, please, God.
Juliet (33:48):
It's so true.
It's that sort of validation.
I've had a few of those tidalwaves that kind of get you and
you're like underwater swim.
Okay, come back up another one.
And then you're like, I don'tthink there's another straw that
can break this camel's back.
It's broken.
But then something will happenthat will go, Oh my goodness.
Okay.
It's okay.
It's like for me, someone Ireally respect in our industry
replied about being a mentor forme.
(34:09):
And I was like.
She replied, even if she doesn'tdo it, the fact she's given it
the time of day is amazing.
Estee (34:15):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Little things like that.
Actually, I messaged Bobbi Brownon Instagram and I said, can I
like talk to you about my brand?
She said, I've seen it onInstagram.
It looks great.
I was like, that was the thingthat pulled me out.
Juliet (34:26):
Bobbi Brown said, great.
I mean, retire now.
You've You've done it.
it.
Estee (34:31):
She doesn't know the ins and outs, just that, that's
Juliet (34:34):
But to me, that's not Bobbi Brown saying it's great,
which is amazing.
It's you having that tiny littlebit of energy left to message
Bobbi Brown.
And you did that, not her.
You made yourself go,
Estee (34:46):
And be willing to get rejected again.
Juliet (34:48):
yes.
And also take potentiallyanother hit.
Cause the more you put outthere, the more potentially you
can come back and knock you.
It is bloody hard.
And yeah it's.
For me, people make or break itand that resilience, I was
thinking when you were sayingabout resilience and rejection,
I didn't think I could hateanything more than online
dating, but sometimes with selfemployment, I'm like, this is
(35:08):
even harder.
Please don't make me do this.
Estee (35:10):
Oh my gosh, I loved dating.
I'm engaged now, but dating ismy favorite thing in the world,
but it's all over for me now.
Juliet (35:18):
Oh my goodness.
Okay.
Right.
This is a whole separate podcastepisode where you can mentor me
on that.
Estee (35:24):
I love it.
I don't know why.
Juliet (35:25):
Do you have a question for our next guest?
Estee (35:28):
I'm just really trying to think and be honest because I
had a question prepared, but nowI'm in this, what do I really
want?
I guess my next question is whatis really the dream for your
company and when do you think,if ever, would you be satisfied
with where it is?
Juliet (35:47):
oh, that is a good one.
Okay.
I'm
Estee (35:50):
because I think a lot of us are like, you're always, I
always see this quote where it'syeah, it's never enough kind of
thing.
And it's probably not.
But I'm curious to see if thenext guest has reached inner
peace.
Juliet (36:02):
Yeah.
Okay.
Really interesting.
Thank you so much, Estée.
It's been fascinating talking toyou and thank you for being so
honest about everything.
think
Estee (36:09):
Thank you so much for having me.
I think this has beentherapeutic for me because like
I said, I've been like goingthrough something.
So I think this is just what Ineeded to get on with the day.
I really hope you've enjoyedthis conversation, you can find
a recap of all the advice sokindly shared by guests in the
show notes, along with ourcontact details.
We'd love it if you could rateand review or share this podcast
because it really does helpother people discover it.
(36:30):
To incentivize this a little, Iwould very happily offer you one
of our PR guides on how to shareeditorial coverage legally, just
DM us or send us an email.
Hello at fallowfieldmason.
com with review in the title andwe'll share it on.
Popular Podcasts
Good Game with Sarah Spain
Good Game is your one-stop shop for the biggest stories in women’s sports. Every day, host Sarah Spain gives you the stories, stakes, stars and stats to keep up with your favorite women’s teams, leagues and athletes. Through thoughtful insight, witty banter, and an all around good time, Sarah and friends break down the latest news, talk about the games you can’t miss, and debate the issues of the day. Don’t miss interviews with the people of the moment, whether they be athletes, coaches, reporters, or celebrity fans.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Crime Junkie
If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people.