Facing the unimaginable pain of losing a child, Anna Ratnathicam Diab opens her heart to share the story of her daughter Carolina, who passed away suddenly at age 11 during a family trip to Uganda in 2019. What unfolds is a raw, honest conversation about navigating grief's unpredictable terrain and finding meaningful ways to honor a child's memory.
Anna vividly recalls Carolina's vibrant personality—her love of bright colors, her notorious sweet tooth, and her habit of wearing "pattern on pattern on pattern" that made her mother chuckle. When describing the day Carolina died after complaining of a headache, Anna doesn't shy away from the brutal reality of those moments in a remote hospital, making impossible decisions no parent should face. The scene of local women gathering outside the hospital in the dark early morning hours, standing silent vigil with Anna in her grief, creates an unforgettable image of human connection transcending language and culture.
Rather than following predictable stages, Anna describes grief as waves—initially constant and overwhelming, gradually becoming smaller and more predictable over time. "There's still moments that suddenly trip me up," she shares. "Now I know you just have to sit in it and it will pass and you'll put yourself back together again."
Five years after Carolina's death, Anna has discovered unexpected pathways to healing: maintaining relationships with Carolina's friends, finding places to honor her memory (including a street intersection named for Carolina outside her elementary school), and remaining open to spiritual connections.
Perhaps the most powerful moment comes when Anna recalls experiencing genuine joy again while watching a UCLA basketball game—something she and Carolina had enjoyed together. "It felt foreign...but in a good way," she explains. "Like oh yeah, I will feel this again." Her message to other bereaved parents cuts through platitudes to offer the one truth she could have absorbed in early grief: "You will feel joy again."
Whether you're navigating your own grief journey or supporting someone who is, this conversation offers profound insights into how we carry both our losses and our capacity for joy forward.
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Lisa Danylchuk (00:19):
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(02:58):
Welcome back to the how we CanHeal podcast.
Today, our guest is AnnaRatnathacam Diab.
Anna and I met as high schoolstudents visiting the UCLA
campus and we're friendsthroughout our college years
together there.
Today we talk about herdaughter, Carolina Diab, who
passed away in 2019.
Anna shares her experiences asa parent, the story of the day
(03:23):
Carolina passed Heads up this isvery appropriately an emotional
story and how Anna's foundhealing after the trauma of
losing her daughter.
Anna shares about the many waysconnection has been helpful in
the wake of such a profound loss.
She shares her efforts to stayopen to a sense of spiritual
connection, her dedication toher sons having as magical a
(03:47):
life as Carolina did, and sheidentifies the supports that
helped her navigate thewhirlwind of emotions that come
with this kind of loss.
This episode is in honor ofCarolina, of my brother, matt,
who we talk about a bit here too, and of anyone you've loved who
you can't call or curl up nextto anymore.
It's also an offering to anyonewho's lost a child a trauma so
(04:12):
visceral that we don't oftentalk about it in the open and
the way we do here today.
I hope this conversation givesyou comfort, courage and,
especially if you've lost achild yourself, the knowledge
that, while your experience is,of course, unique, you're not
alone in your grief.
I hope you'll join me today inhonoring those we've loved and
(04:33):
lost and in giving the mostmassive hug to my dear friend
and our guest here today, AnnaDiab.
I was thinking, when kind ofleading up to this, about when
we met right.
.
.
I thought about that thismorning on my run.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (04:51):
actually Did you yeah, I really did.
Lisa Danylchuk (04:55):
The like blue super shuttle right.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (04:57):
The super shuttle, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (04:58):
On the way from LAX to Westwood to go check out
UCLA, I was trying to rememberwhat time of year that was.
It must have been like spring,because you've already been
accepted.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (05:10):
but there's still springtime.
Lisa Danylchuk (05:15):
We were what 17?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (05:18):
I would have still been 17.
Lisa Danylchuk (05:20):
Oh my goodness, like more than half a lifetime
ago.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (05:24):
Literally , yeah, yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (05:25):
Yeah, what do you remember from that?
That day?
That weekend we met.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (05:31):
I don't remember much.
I know you and I tried to go toa fraternity party.
Of course we did I don'tremember that, but I don't
actually remember anything UCLArelated that we did or
accomplished, and I don't evenknow if we got into a party, but
I know we tried.
That's so funny, I don'tremember.
Lisa Danylchuk (05:46):
I just remember meeting you in the super shuttle
and being like oh okay, cool,Someone else from my hometown,
she seems pretty cool, she wantsto go here too.
And then fast forward.
You ended up becoming reallyclose with Marietta, one of my
roommates.
So many fun stories that won'tmake it onto this podcast.
That will stay forever in therealm of no social media and no
video evidence so much better.
(06:07):
But I am really grateful that wemet and that we know each other
and we're here today to talkabout, like, the not so fun
things, not so much the fratparties, but more the hardest
things we go through in life.
You know, when I was at UCLA,my older brother passed away.
I was 22.
He was 25.
And then in 2019, december, youlost your daughter on a trip
(06:29):
with your family and that wasreally sudden.
And so now we have thisconnection that, like you never
want to have with anyone, but Ithink is also really powerful
and really helpful when thosethings do happen, to find those
people who have been throughsomething similar it's never
going to be the same but who canjust kind of grasp like, oh, I
(06:52):
have a taste for where you areright now.
Right, so I'm curious for youjust to back up a little.
I want to say Carolina's name,carolina, and I want to just
sort of almost invite her intothe space.
You and I talk about being likeyou're a science major and we're
like, very logical.
And then there's this spiritualelement that comes with loss at
(07:12):
times and sometimes it can behard to lean into that, but I
was doing yoga before this, as Ido, and I was thinking about
her and I was thinking about how, sometimes, when I'm doing
therapy sessions, I really feelsomeone with us, like we're
talking about someone who'ssessions.
I really feel someone with usLike we're talking about someone
who's passed and I really feelthem, and so I just wanted to
like open the door to that, solike having her here with us.
(07:32):
Like my producer sometimescomes on.
She's not here today, butshe'll be in the background on
the Zoom and you don't see herface and you don't hear her
voice, but she's just sort ofthere.
You know, while we're at it, wecan invite Matt too, we can
invite whoever, but just to likekeep that presence with us and
that presence alive.
Does that work for you?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (07:49):
It does, and this is where you've helped
me.
You know I struggle with how doI connect or how do I feel her
presence, and that I still havea lot of work to do.
So I appreciate you saying thatand it encourages me to be a
little more open to that.
Lisa Danylchuk (08:07):
Yeah, yeah.
So I want to hear your story,Carolina's story.
How did she come to be in yourworld?
Did you always want a family?
How did you feel about having adaughter?
I know as a podcast host, I'mnot supposed to ask you 12
questions at the same time, butjust let us know what.
What was that?
How did she come into your life?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (08:27):
I knew I always, like you, I have two
brothers, so growing up havingsiblings was just my norm, and
so I knew I wanted to have afamily, and my husband felt the
same when he got married.
He also came from three kidsgrowing up together, and so it
was just kind of assumed thatthat's what we would do.
But it certainly was.
(08:48):
You know, that moment you seethat positive pregnancy test,
it's like whoa, whoa, whoa.
Lisa Danylchuk (08:54):
Maybe I wasn't quite ready.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (08:55):
You know there's a fear that sets in.
I was excited.
I'm one of those miserablepregnant people.
I was sick all the time so Iwasn't excited.
Really, yeah, the idea wasexciting.
Lisa Danylchuk (09:06):
What do you remember about her birth, her
early years?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (09:10):
Her birth was easy, thank goodness.
I felt like.
Lisa Danylchuk (09:13):
I paid my dues pregnant and the early years
were.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (09:16):
I mean, you know it changes your whole
world, obviously, and I found itrather isolating I was young
among my friends to have kids.
I was 28.
And you know, I'm used to justworking and that's what I have
to talk about, and I havefriends who have similar things
to talk about, and suddenly allI had to talk about was how I
(09:37):
went to Target that day.
Lisa Danylchuk (09:40):
Which is a huge accomplishment, by the way.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (09:43):
It is, but when you say it out loud
it's like oh.
Lisa Danylchuk (09:46):
Right.
People are like okay if they'renot in that world.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (09:50):
Right.
So I mean I look back and ofcourse I would do it all again,
but those were hard early years.
Carolee was easy enough, but Ididn't.
I'm not a baby mom.
I needed her to grow up alittle bit and then I was better
.
Lisa Danylchuk (10:10):
Yeah, yeah.
And what was she like?
What personality did you seeemerging?
What were some of the funmoments with her as she started
to get older?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (10:15):
She was always funny, kind of silly,
happy.
I mean I'm sure I thought shewas difficult at the time, but
no, the minute my middle my sonwas born.
You know.
She took him under her wing andshe was the boss and he looked
up to her and she exploited thatto the best of her abilities
and she bounced around.
She wanted to do what herfriends were doing.
Lisa Danylchuk (10:37):
What are some of the things that have become
signs of hurt to you?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (10:43):
Some of them are I don't think generic
is the right word but thingslike rainbows and bright colors,
which are not obviously uniquejust to her.
But she was in a phase whereshe was colors and patterns.
You know, my husband used tosay she dresses pattern on
pattern on pattern.
When I see, especially if I see, another kid around the same
age dressed like that, it makesme kind of chuckle to myself
(11:06):
remembering that.
You know that parent probablylooked at their child and said
here we go, here we go today.
Yeah, candy, everyone seems toassociate her with sweets and
candy.
She loved it, was proud of herobsession flaunted it.
I have these TikTok videos ofher now in her account and so
many of them are her likesneaking candy around the house
(11:27):
or hiding wrappers, and it'sfunny.
Lisa Danylchuk (11:32):
Did you ever find those wrappers?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (11:34):
Yes, yes, when she was live, yes, I found
stashes of them.
And then even that last, maybeup to a year after she died, I
found wrappers here and there,and it was funny.
Lisa Danylchuk (11:44):
Wow, that must have been funny but also a
little bit hard, like a littlemoment of connection to her.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (11:50):
For sure yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (11:52):
I ask these questions because I know a big
part of you continuing to talkabout what you went through,
which is obviously like one ofthe most difficult things anyone
can go through, is like keepingher, her spirit, alive and
keeping her with us andremembering some of those things
that might seem funny or justdaily.
You know daily things eatingcandy, wearing bright colors.
(12:14):
For both of us, we experienceda loss that happened really
quickly and I know you were on atrip in Uganda and, honestly,
like I've just never.
I think I learned about whathappened from your Facebook post
, which said something to theeffect of this is never supposed
to happen or it was neversupposed to be this way, which I
can totally relate to.
Do you want to tell the storyof what happened when you lost
(12:38):
her, or does that feel like, oh,I've gone through that so many
times or it might be too painful?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (12:43):
No, I can can talk about it.
I think it's hard and emotional, but I always feel a catharsis
to it after, like it's not heronly story, but it's still her
story.
Yeah, and it's part of it.
Lisa Danylchuk (12:54):
I mean, I'd love to hear it, just as your friend
, if you want to share yeah,we'd probably been in Uganda
four days, I think.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (13:01):
At that point everyone was fine.
You've traveled a lot Like wewere jet lagged and probably
dehydrated and we celebrated.
She had the best last day.
We didn't know that at the time, but they threw a birthday
party for her at the lodge thatevening.
And the next day we got on asmall flight to go more remote
and she was complaining of aheadache and we were trying to
(13:23):
pack up and I'm sure I wassnippy, you know, like just
drink some water.
She wouldn't drink water, butit was nothing crazy.
We got on the flight and we gotto the lodge.
Julian, my middle, had eatensomething funky.
That didn't agree with him, sohe wanted to lie down and she
said she did too.
And we were eating lunch.
My dad and my brother and hisgirlfriend were there and my
(13:45):
youngest was there and myhusband came back and said she's
throwing up, she's asking foryou.
So I was kind of like okay.
I walked back to our room atthis lodge and she was sick on
the bed and she looked at me andshe said mama, I don't want to
(14:09):
die.
And you know, as a parent, youknow, I said of course you're
not, let's move over to theother bed.
We'll get you cleaned up,you'll be fine.
And she looked at Julian andsaid Julian, I love you.
And she was unconsciousprobably 10 minutes later.
Lisa Danylchuk (14:31):
Wow.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (14:32):
And so we got.
The camp nurse was there, Camparranged for a ride to the
hospital.
They said we're going to go tothe farther one, it's better,
and we spent the next 14 hoursthere.
She never regainedconsciousness, but we were.
You don't think of the worst.
You can't imagine.
It was like it's going to befine.
Lisa Danylchuk (14:51):
Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (14:52):
But it was just a lot with Medivac and
we had approval to go to Nairobiwith her and I think we just
thought and hoped like, okay,that's going to happen, we're
going to go to a bigger hospitaland it's going to be fine.
My brother's girlfriend, liz,stayed back at the camp with the
boys.
It was the middle of the nightand my dad and brother were
trying to work with the moneyback and going back and forth
(15:14):
with the drivers.
Suddenly I felt her heart ratein her chest and it was not
normal.
I yelled for the doctor and thenext two hours were chest
compressions and intubation andall the things that you don't
ever want to see.
And after a while it becameclear that it wasn't going to.
She wasn't going to make it.
(15:35):
There were two doctors and Isaid is anything going to change
?
And she said how long till yourbrother and dad get here?
And I said probably 20 minutes.
They were in the car and wewere texting and she said we can
keep going till then.
And I was just like if this, isit like, if it's not going to
change, just stop pressing onher.
And she said are you sure?
And I said yeah, wow, yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (16:03):
It's just the most painful experience, and I
mean, my mind goes to worst casescenario all the time oh my god
, is she okay?
Oh my god, is this going tohappen?
To fix this and make sure she'sokay.
At the same time, though,you're describing this like no,
it's going to be fine.
It's going to be fine likewe're going to.
We have to right because youhave to, because there's no
(16:25):
other option, like the onlyoption is get you to the next
care and get you better and getyou better.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (16:31):
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (16:32):
Oh I.
I feel like there's a momentthere of acceptance or surrender
for you to say if it's notgoing to change, just let her be
.
What do you have a sense ofwhat happened for you in that
moment or what led you to thatchoice?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (16:53):
I knew Gibran had already realized it.
I was hanging on so hard that Icouldn't see it.
You know, when you kind ofbalance out with a partner in
any situation, one person'sstruggling, the other kind of
buoys the opposite directionjust to keep it even and I was
so firm that it's okay, eventhough no, I mean, all the signs
(17:16):
around me showed that it wasn't, but my brain couldn't even go
there yeah just the way thatdoctor looked at me and said it
won't make a difference.
I had to let her be so intenseto watch chest compressions and
it was was a lot, so I just saidplease stop pressing on her.
Lisa Danylchuk (17:32):
I think of how we respond emotionally in those
moments.
I feel like I would just break.
And what do I mean by that?
Like your heartbreak, your bodyor everything breaks in half,
or you're like crying, or likedid you hug Gibran?
Did you collapse on the floor?
Do you remember, even after yourealized like this might be it,
(17:57):
this is it, yeah I don't thinkwe hugged if we did it was, it
was not right away yeah
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (18:05):
I remember I texted my brother and
my dad because they were goingto walk into it being done, just
so they knew.
And then I crawled into the bedwith her and I yelled for a
blanket and I sobbed and Icalled a handful of people that
I, for me, I don't know I had tolike scream it out there.
And then I remember they said Ihad to get out of the room,
(18:27):
they had to prep her forwhatever they do and it was a
remote hospital and so when youwalk outside the door of the
room, you walk to the outside.
That was the pediatric wing andit was dark.
It was three in the morning andthere was like a dirt hill and
there were all these eyes in thedark and it was all the women
from the nearby.
(18:48):
I'm sure words spread quickly.
That American Child was thereand they probably heard.
I'm sure they heard everythingthose last couple hours and they
were all sniffling and one ofthem moved over.
There was one bench and for meto sit there and it was in
hindsight, it was so beautiful.
(19:08):
But yeah, I did collapse on thedirt at one point I remember I
just couldn't hold myself up.
Yeah, I cried.
I probably made really strangecrying sounds.
Lisa Danylchuk (19:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (19:21):
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (19:24):
So the people there were sad with you were
supportive you or present orwitnessing what was happening.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (19:32):
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (19:33):
And we're offering some some sense of care
or what they could.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (19:37):
They were , they couldn't, they didn't
speak English, we didn't speak,they just sat there for the next
.
It was probably two or threehours before an ambulance got
there to to take her.
Yeah, and they followed us tothe ambulance and I remember
when they shut the door and Iturned around and they all put
their right hand up these women.
(19:57):
It was the most striking humanthing maybe I've ever seen wow.
Lisa Danylchuk (20:04):
How did that impact you in the moment
emotionally?
Did you feel like it helped orsupported you at all?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (20:11):
I felt supported.
I was swirling in my mind.
I noted it.
I don't think I could take itin as much as I could after,
when I realized how remarkableit was that they were there in
the middle of the night.
They didn't know us, but theywere feeling for us.
Yeah, it's quite meaningful tome now.
Lisa Danylchuk (20:30):
What has sustained you in facing this
loss?
You mentioned calling peopleright away, just needing to
shout out what was happeningthose first few minutes, hours,
days.
There's so much shock.
What helped you then, andwhat's helped in the years that
have passed since then?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (20:54):
It's probably the same, just in a
different way.
Just people showing up showingus that they were thinking about
Carolina it wasn't about noteven the boys yet and Giovanna
myself, it was just think of her.
Just the logistics of bringingsomeone back internationally is
(21:16):
daunting and piled on.
Why you're doing it?
It was a lot that part's blurry, but a Facebook page was put up
right away and I spent, youknow, the dark hours, sleepless
hours of the night reading thesemessages and some people I knew
, and some people I didn't atall, and they were thinking of
Carolina and that helped so much.
And since then, of course, it'sless intense, right Anytime
(21:41):
after someone passes, as timemarches on, but people like you
who just remind me that she'snot forgotten.
I think what I panicked with,especially soon after she died,
was that how, what if she'sforgotten?
What if people don't rememberafter this, after the funeral is
(22:02):
over, after the first year isover?
But they haven't.
People continue to remind meand that's for me, a really big
bit of peace.
Lisa Danylchuk (22:12):
I know I was even thinking when you were
talking about the birthday partyshe had.
She loved her birthday, rightLoved, and I share that.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (22:20):
You are one of those people, aren't you?
Oh yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (22:23):
I love my birthday.
It went from birthday to birthweek to birthday month, birthday
month.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (22:27):
Oh yeah, yeah, she was trending towards.
She would have been that.
Lisa Danylchuk (22:29):
She was trending right.
I feel this kindred spirit withher there like hey, I see you
and I think of her for at leastthe latter half of December,
right, because there's thisjoyous birthday and then there's
a day that she passed so closetogether and I imagine,
especially with the holidaysright there, that's just
wrecking emotionally for you,like so much, so much right
(22:54):
there packed into a short periodof time.
I'm always thinking of herduring that time and the joy of
the birthday and the celebrating, and then you know, oh, how old
would she be right now, right,and then also just the
recognition of what people leavebehind, the impact of all the
(23:17):
relationships and all maybe thehopes or the dreams or the other
things.
At UCLA, right, interpersonalcommunication studies, and you
know we had studied ElizabethKubler-Ross's stages of grief.
I remember just being like F,all these pamphlets that are
(23:38):
like so organized and left brainso linear, like first there's
this and I do think there'ssomething that shifts between
the first few days or weeks andthe first few months or the
first year.
But it was just.
I mean, I described it like ifmy life before this were a piece
, were a puzzle and I werepiecing it together.
(23:59):
Someone just took the puzzlepieces, soak them up in like a
smoothie, threw them in theblender and then poured it out
on the table and I got to makesomething out of it.
There wasn't like, oh, I'm sosad.
I mean, of course I was sad, ohI'm angry, of course I was, but
like it didn't.
For me it didn't come throughlike shock, denial, anger,
(24:24):
acceptance.
It was just a big mix.
I think that in and of itselfwas challenging right, like I
had never been through somethinglike that before.
So it was just like how do Ieven?
I think that's why yoga is sogood for me, it was just like
breathe and notice.
Whatever notice, however it is,you don't even have to label it
.
So what was it like initially?
And how would you describe itemotionally a few years on?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (24:50):
Same as you.
There were no stages of grief,no one tried to hand me a
pamphlet, thank goodness.
But there was certainly aperiod of shock.
Even though you knew, yourbrain knew what had happened,
you couldn't even reallyunderstand it.
I think that swirl of I neverfelt angry, but just confused
(25:13):
and sadness that first year Ithink for most it's just kind of
unrelenting and you don't knowwhen or where you're going to
feel, brushed down by whateveremotion.
I found that very unstablefeeling in that first year.
Since then the waves aresmaller.
(25:35):
Usually they're predictable.
You know obvious days like theanniversary, and you know
there's a bittersweet to herbirthday or family occasions
where you know that personshould be there.
There's still moments thatsuddenly trip me up.
Now I know you just have to sitin it and it will pass and
(25:57):
you'll put yourself backtogether again.
Lisa Danylchuk (26:00):
Like waves really.
I relate to that a lot and Iremember just the weight of the
first year, almost it feelingconstant at first and then
having little moments of mayberelief and the little moments
getting longer and then it'sstarting to feel more like, oh,
there's these chunks of griefcoming through and the rest of
(26:21):
my there's something else, thatI'm standing on, and that those
waves are coming through ratherthan just being tossed around in
the current as you go.
It's like, oh, okay, now thisis a wave and this is a wave,
and then, further on, getting tothe sense of really knowing,
almost expecting it and beingable to ride it for the longest
time.
Right around the anniversary ofhis death, which was in July,
(26:44):
like a day or two before, Iwould just be like so off
emotionally and I would maybehave planned to take the
anniversary day off.
I might've planned to go for awalk or, you know do something
that made me feel a little bitmore connected to him or was a
you know dedication or anoffering, but it would usually
(27:06):
be a few days before and I'd belike what is happening?
It always shocked me how muchyour body knows these things at
such a deep level and yourpsyche is just so attuned, even
if waking, conscious, wise,you're like I'm just doing this
today, right?
Did you experience that too,those moments where you like
don't know, you didn't see itcoming and it just kind of waves
(27:30):
over you still?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (27:32):
I still do, and it's that build up right
.
You were saying like a few daysbefore the week before.
That's the worst part.
Yeah, it's interesting to mebecause the worst already
happened, so that initially itfelt like maybe she died again
on that day.
But there's still some sortthat's the worst part.
Yeah, it's interesting to mebecause the worst already
happened, so initially it feltlike maybe she died again on
that day, but there's still somesort of anxiety approaching,
especially that day and even amonth before my sleep starts
(27:53):
getting really funky.
I can't control it, I just waitfor it to be done.
Lisa Danylchuk (28:01):
These things are big and as much as you love
someone is, as much as it feelspainful when they're gone, and
so for anyone listening who'sgoing through this, you're not
alone.
When it's messy and it can bereally gnarly emotionally in a
way that I don't think we canreally capture in words, but I
do think it helps to know thatthere are other people out here
(28:24):
and it's not something wrongwith you to grieve in this way.
In fact, it's like reallynormal and helpful to be able to
connect with it and process itin the way that works best for
you.
Anna Ratnathicam Dia (28:36):
Absolutely , I think, sharing and being
open and being reminded, eventhough everyone's story is
unique, obviously because theirrelationship is unique, I have
found it so helpful to be.
I don't know how else I can beother than open, but that's,
it's helpful.
Lisa Danylchuk (28:53):
Yeah, and you said that even when I asked you
do you want to talk about thison the podcast?
You're like it seems to behelpful to stay open and share,
and I think there's connectionon the other side of it seems to
be helpful to stay open andshare, and I think there's
connection on the other side ofthat too.
Right, like absolutely yeah.
So we talked a little bit aboutthis.
How have your thoughts orbeliefs changed since December
(29:15):
of 2019?
Like, what has shifted in youand the way you think, feel and
the way you are in the world?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (29:24):
shifted in you and the way you think,
feel and the way you are in theworld.
I don't know if my husband andkids would say the same, but I
think I've let go of a lot.
I'm one of those who I likecontrol.
I like managing and having myducks in a row and we all know
that you can't always have yourducks in a row but this this
pulled everything out fromunderneath me.
I couldn't control it and Ithink it has softened.
(29:48):
I still like to control thingsand I still like ducks in a row,
but I think I've let go of alot of the deeper need for
control.
I think I'm more open to otherpeople and just enjoying being
present, and that's probably mybiggest shift being more present
(30:11):
, more picky about where Ichoose to be present, maybe but,
really being present, beingpresent for my boys has been a
big one.
Lisa Danylchuk (30:19):
And that perspective with loss is really
powerful of like.
None of this is guaranteed andfor me that it helps with just
being present with life.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (30:33):
It does, and there's still, obviously,
all those moments that are sofrustrating and irritating, but
I now catch myself mayberemembering that this will pass
and, like you said, nothing ispromised.
It is a good, broaderperspective than I had before.
Lisa Danylchuk (30:51):
And you also mentioned being more intentional
about where you're present,right Like, where is your
attention and is this reallythat important?
Do I need to be renting outmental space in my brain for
this little hiccup about work orthis technology, frustration or
whatever else is happening, soit can kind of recenter you that
way too.
Anna Ratnathicam Dia (31:11):
Absolutely .
Lisa Danylchuk (31:13):
And in terms of spirituality, where do you land
with that?
Is it still a challenge?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (31:18):
It's still a challenge.
I'm not religious and even if Iwere, I joined a grief group
for a couple of years because ofCOVID.
But there was one couple inthere and they were very
religious and this shatteredthat for them, because they're
like yeah we kind of know whereshe is, but how could this
happen?
And so I don't know that.
That would give me an obviousbit of assurance that she's
(31:41):
somewhere.
But I believe she's somewhere.
I don't believe that you justdisappear, but I don't know
where she is and I don't knowhow to find her.
Not yet, I'm trying.
Lisa Danylchuk (31:55):
And there are these little moments like I
think you messaged me when youwere in Kauai and there was a
rainbow and a hummingbird orsomething like this moments that
you just feel.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (32:04):
And it sounds so hokey, but but I felt
it.
Lisa Danylchuk (32:07):
Yeah, and that's the part that I feel is
important to trust.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (32:12):
Yeah, you , you actually told me that I
think it was about a bush.
This was years ago.
Yes, that lit up for you, yes,and you were using that as an
example to coach me, like noone's going to tell you
otherwise, like no one can tellyou that that was or was not
Matt, and that helps me toremember, to open myself up in
those moments, that maybe, maybe, it can be her.
Lisa Danylchuk (32:34):
Yes, oh, I love that you remember the bush too.
I remember the bush, I rememberthe bush, and this was 20 years
ago, solid, more, oh, wow.
I was driving on Montana fromBrentwood towards Santa Monica,
going to yoga, as we do, andthere's a curve in the road and
I think it's a golf course thatyou're curving along the edge of
yeah, there is.
(32:56):
And right in front of you Idon't know if it's still there
there was a bush and there weresome flowers on it.
Don't know if it's still there.
There was a bush and there weresome flowers on it.
They were pink and blooming and, for whatever reason, they were
like vibrant alive, not so muchI mean visually, but there was
just a aura or a feeling and Ijust felt like that's my brother
, like it's confusing to sayhe's not here in body, but I
(33:19):
felt such a vibe from it and Ihad this moment of like, okay,
like I.
I don't get that, but sure Come.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (33:27):
So you accepted it right away.
Lisa Danylchuk (33:29):
Bush or be the thing that I'm driving towards,
that I'll turn and drive around,but just anything like you're
going to be here with me, great.
And the thing I love about someof those moments is that I
wasn't looking for it in themoment, because sometimes people
are like, oh you poor sad,grieving person, you're just
making stuff up because you'reso attached.
Maybe that's just someinternalized criticism, but I
(33:51):
feel like sometimes people kindof come from that really logical
place where they're like, oh,you don't know.
Like, oh, I don't know, but I'mchoosing to trust that this
means something and I can'texplain it.
Some of them are a little morestark.
Or you share the story of like ahummingbird and a rainbow and
people are like, oh, they getthat.
Those are common symbols, right?
(34:12):
I had a hawk that followed me.
I was moving from Seattle,which is where I lived, when he
passed back down to California.
I was driving down the Oregoncoast and I swear like from
Portland out to the coast anddown there was this bird and I
had the old Acura Integra.
I remember that car.
You remember that car?
I do.
You've been in that car andthis bird was following my car
(34:35):
for miles, like from Portland,somewhere between Portland and
the coast, and then south Mileslike hours.
I would look up oh it's stillthere.
Oh, it's still there.
How do I explain this?
This is the most random thingSomeone might be like.
There was some piece of preystuck to the top of your car and
it was chasing it or whatever,but it just felt like a sign.
(34:57):
It just felt like something.
It just felt like a visit.
For me.
It was really important to notget stuck in my head about it
and just felt like something.
It just felt like a visit forme.
It was really important to notget stuck in my head about it
and just be like okay, hi, andthen to even speak out loud
whatever I might want to say atthe moment.
Hey, matt, I'm moving fromSeattle back down.
I have a couple more classes totake at UCLA.
I miss you.
Whatever.
To speak it out loud sometimeshelped too.
(35:18):
Do you ever have a chance to dothat?
To like speak out loud or write.
Does that happen for you?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (35:25):
I do.
Actually, I've not been writingso much this year.
We're in a temporary rentalwhile we redo our house and I
used to only write to her inCarolina's room.
I would go sit there with myjournal and write to her.
I don't have a space for herright now, so I have not been
writing as much, but I'll talkto her somehow I can do that.
(35:46):
So I must in those moments atleast hope enough that she can
hear me.
Lisa Danylchuk (35:52):
And what would you say to her right now if she
were on a call?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (35:56):
Oh, I would start crying yeah, yeah, I
would just tell her I miss her.
I think that's all I could getout so far.
Lisa Danylchuk (36:03):
I think one of the hardest things is like
that's it, that's the beginning,middle end of like that
manifestation of this spirit,this person.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (36:10):
Yeah, it's hard not to think about all
the things they don't get to do.
Lisa Danylchuk (36:17):
Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (36:18):
Matt doesn't get to meet Isabella.
I know Helena doesn't get togrow up.
We doesn't get to meet Isabella.
I know Carolina doesn't get togrow up, we don't get to figure
out.
What would she do, what wouldshe be like?
I think those are the harderthoughts 100%.
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (36:32):
There might be parents who are a week out, a
month out, a year out or 20years out listening to this.
Yeah, what would you say toother parents who've lost a
child?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (36:43):
20 years out listening to this, what
would you say to other parentswho've lost a child?
I know for me not that I didn'twant to hear anything, but I
couldn't take in.
The grief will morph, it willbe different, it will be easier.
I didn't want to hear that.
I didn't want to sit in mygrief forever.
Like you said, at one year yourealize I don't want my life to
be dominated by losing Matt.
You knew I didn't want that.
(37:03):
Realize I don't want my life tobe dominated by losing Matt.
You knew I didn't want that.
I don't want my life defined bythis loss.
It's now part of my story butit's not going to run my life.
But I think I thought if I takein that, the grief will change,
it will morph, it'll be fartheraway from the days when
Carolina was here.
I didn't want that, even thoughI didn't want to exist in that
(37:27):
relentless wave.
Someone said once something tothe effect of, if you look at it
, not in a morbid way but nowyou're living and getting closer
to the day when you'll be withher again.
Whatever that means was abetter spin on it for me.
Lisa Danylchuk (37:43):
Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (37:44):
The only thing I could tell someone that
I would have been able to takein was that you will feel joy
again.
Lisa Danylchuk (37:50):
Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (37:51):
Not that I wasn't happy in moments, but
like actual joy.
And I remember when I felt itfor the first time because it
caught me and I kind of stoppedfor a minute and it was the
silliest reason you'll laugh,but but I felt it and I knew it
was pure and it was proof to melike this will it won't be okay,
(38:13):
but it will be okay.
Lisa Danylchuk (38:14):
What was it?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (38:16):
It must've been just over a year
ago after Carolina died, somaybe it was spring of 21 and
UCLA basketball was I don't knowif they were in March madness
or approaching it, but they hadthe game and we had it on me and
it was COVID.
Everyone was home anyway and itwas exciting and you know we
used to go like we would campout for those games, so it was
(38:40):
something that I knew.
I used to enjoy and I got socaught up into the game and kind
of like yelled and clappedwhatever good thing had happened
, and that was the moment Iimmediately stopped because it
felt so foreign.
Lisa Danylchuk (38:52):
Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (38:53):
But it felt foreign in a good way, Like
oh yeah, I will feel this again.
Lisa Danylchuk (38:57):
Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (38:58):
But it was.
It was very strange and silly.
Lisa Danylchuk (39:01):
Yeah, it like really drew you in and there's
so many associations with thatfrom the past.
And then all of a, sudden.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (39:07):
Where is that coming from?
Yeah, and that was nice to feel.
Lisa Danylchuk (39:12):
I love that that it was a basketball game.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (39:16):
Oh my gosh.
Lisa Danylchuk (39:16):
I don't know if you've ever met my friend from
growing up.
She's my best friend my wholelife, katrina, we call each
other Weenie.
She caught one time time wewere on the phone.
It was maybe a year ish out andI don't know what it was, but I
laughed and she went oh, weenie, you laughed.
I haven't heard you laugh in solong and I was like oh right,
(39:36):
like wow, wow, like I didn'tnotice it so much, but she, she
did.
And then when she reflectedthat, I was like, yeah, it's
been rough, right, like youhaven't heard me laugh in a year
, but it does come back right,it does come back.
Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (39:54):
It does come back if you allow it to,
and and I want it.
I want it to um, yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (40:01):
And I can just imagine Carolina, like right by
your side, like go, go, go.
She probably watched some UCLAbasketball with you.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (40:08):
I may have dragged her to Vegas a
couple of times for March.
Madness, yes, you did.
I love that the two of us went.
She didn't really care, but Imade her go.
Lisa Danylchuk (40:17):
She's like yay trip with mama.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (40:18):
Sounds great.
We had fun right.
Lisa Danylchuk (40:20):
Yeah, that's amazing.
You mentioned earlier a griefgroup.
Would you recommend that tofolks?
I know it's so individual, butare there any resources or
places?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (40:34):
or websites or things that helped
you navigate through.
I joined the grief group.
Jabron came with me the firsttime.
He's like this is not for me,that was okay.
We grieved on our own path.
We didn't try to do it together.
I don't even know if I liked it.
I don't know if you like griefgroups, but I don't know if I
felt anything from it initially.
But I knew I had work to do andI didn't know what it looked
(40:55):
like and so I threw myself into.
I'm going to do this griefgroup on my own.
I wanted to do family grieftherapy for the boys.
Covid hit just a few monthslater, so our options were
limited.
To have kids sit on a couch andstare at a computer screen and
try to do art therapy doesn'twork well.
But I felt we all needed to dosome sort of work at least the
(41:16):
first year.
And Gibran and I did grieftherapy on our own.
So it was a lot, but I justfelt like I just need to see
what sticks.
I don't regret any of it.
It was easy to do all that.
Not easy, but it was COVID.
We weren't going anywhere.
So to have a few meetings aweek online was fine.
It was something to do.
Lisa Danylchuk (41:36):
I think it's important, like you said, it's
not like you're going to like itnecessarily, but just finding
what sticks.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (41:42):
Yeah, my grief group ended up, but you
just can't take in someoneelse's loss when you're so raw
yourself, and so it took a whilefor me to actually feel like I
could incorporate their storiesand connect with them.
Yeah, I'm glad I did it for me,just to be reminded that you're
not alone.
Even though your loss is unique, it's not just you.
Yeah, I think it's important totry something.
(42:05):
Yeah, just to dig in myselfinto a hole and throw a blanket
over my head Like I wanted tolive.
I wanted to be present formyself, for my kids.
Lisa Danylchuk (42:14):
Yeah, so it was a conscious choice.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (42:16):
It was a conscious choice.
I knew I couldn't do nothing.
Lisa Danylchuk (42:21):
Did you ever try yoga?
No, do nothing, did you?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (42:30):
ever try yoga.
No, next time in LA we're goingto go to a class.
Lisa Danylchuk (42:32):
Okay, I've tried a couple of times and I'm
probably pretty terrible at it,but I would be open to trying.
Yeah, that was like the thingthat stuck for me before that.
I was doing so many thingsoutdoors.
All this stuff and outdoors issomething that's really healing
for me now, but at the time Iwas just like yoga, this is,
it's doing something.
Yeah, I can't explain it, butthat led to this whole career
trajectory of like trying tofigure it out.
Like why was that the thing forme and why is that the thing
(42:53):
for some people?
Like I do think that it'sindividual for everyone and it
was.
Yeah, it was interesting to mehow powerful yoga was and then
it was really interesting tolearn all these reasons why
later, like then, I got to geekout on it.
Oh, my goodness, like there'san alpha theta response when you
close your eyes and you leanback and you cover your eyes.
(43:15):
Wow, how interesting.
Just to speak to her and keepher here with us.
What are some of your mosttreasured memories with Carolina
?
To speak to her and keep herhere with us what are some of
your most treasured memorieswith carolina?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (43:25):
probably those vegas trips were a couple
that stand out to me.
It was just fun, it was justtime us yeah she could do
anything and we'd go.
I didn't have to say no toanything.
It was just her time with meand I enjoyed doing that with
her and I think she enjoyed itwith me.
Planning her birthday partieswas miserable at the time but
(43:50):
always ended up fun.
She always had to do somethingcompletely different and I miss
that.
I think, around her birthday,just listening to months of
planning and ideas.
But I still have those journalsand pages that she wrote, so
it's nice to look back on those.
I could have sent her notesover to you if she were here.
Lisa Danylchuk (44:07):
Oh, totally.
I would have been the mostexcited little auntie on the
side being like, okay, and thenwe can add this Are there any
fireworks yet?
And how will you continue tohonor Carolina?
And how?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (44:25):
will you continue to honor Carolina?
Just for me, even little thingsthe last years I've bought.
Carolina was in Girl Scouts,and so we buy a ton of boxes
from her troop One of herclosest girlfriends is still in
it and we give them to theeducators and staff at school
that have been so amazing to usthese past years, and all of
Carolina's old teachers.
So that helps each year and ithelps me be reminded once again
(44:52):
that she's she's remembered, andnot on the daily by most people
, but the minute they get ittheir faces light up and I have
a sticker that I put on it.
So that was fun.
My dad has a nonprofit in SriLanka and they each year do a
donation to needy children witha picture of Carolina on it.
All these small things puttogether and then being in touch
(45:13):
with her friends is my hearthealer.
They are amazing girls.
They keep me involved in theirlife and it helps me feel like
Carolina still can be here.
If I watch them, I don't knowwhat she would be like, but I
know I can't have a good guessbased on how they are.
Lisa Danylchuk (45:31):
And they're still feeling really connected
to her too, right.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (45:35):
They are.
They've gone their separateways.
They're in high school now but,they come together.
We had dinner the other nightand I take them out for
Carolina's birthday for lunchand they come together and they
have this bond of thisexperience and this friend and
it's really sweet.
I hope for all the years tocome that they can always circle
(45:55):
back if given the opportunity.
Lisa Danylchuk (45:57):
Didn't you have a square dedicated to her name?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (46:00):
Yes, One of her girlfriend's dad filed a
petition to have the square.
It's the intersection outsideof our elementary school named
the Carolina Madrid Diab Square.
He didn't tell us because hedidn't know if it would be
approved.
When it was, he told them tohold and ask our permission.
And it's, you know, she's notburied, she's cremated, so we
don't have a place to go visither.
(46:22):
Yeah, she cremated, so we don'thave a place to go visit her.
Yeah, or we wouldn't have had.
And this square, on all fourcorners there's a sign with her
name and it's big and wedecorate it every year on the
24th on her birthday, and herfriends show up and some people
in the community now show up andwe've got donuts and coffee and
it's.
It is a place I can bring herflowers there yeah, that's right
(46:45):
, and I do often yeah what athoughtful gesture it was
amazing.
I didn't realize the importanceof having a place, yeah, to go
visit her and now I do.
Lisa Danylchuk (46:58):
I haven't been there.
So, yeah, we're on our way toyoga.
After yoga, we'll go sit there.
I think after then we have moretime we can sit, bring flowers.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (47:06):
Is Matt buried or cremated?
Lisa Danylchuk (47:08):
He's cremated and we never spread it.
I think early on we were tryingto coordinate and trying to
choose like the perfect spot.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (47:14):
Right.
Lisa Danylchuk (47:15):
And we all had a little bit different ideas.
I was like how about the top ofthis mountain?
We climbed together and then myparents thought, well, what
about this field where wepicnicked?
It didn't feel like wedisagreed, it just felt like we
didn't land on something.
That was like yeah, that soundsgreat.
Do you still have the ashes ordid you spread them?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (47:33):
We didn't spread them.
We have them.
It was.
You know she was 11.
So it wasn't like she lovedsailing, or you know that she
would belong in the ocean, or ifshe belongs here with us.
Lisa Danylchuk (47:44):
Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (47:45):
It was never a talk to put her anywhere
or spread her ashes or bury her, so we commissioned a Japanese
artist to create a piece ofglass for her that looks like a
whimsical cookie jar in a way.
Lisa Danylchuk (48:01):
Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (48:01):
And it's made of her favorite colors that
she had at the time.
Lisa Danylchuk (48:05):
And you know, the cookie, a kind of a nod to
her sweet tooth, yep, and soit's a piece of glass that if
you didn't know, you wouldn'tthink of it as an urn, but it's
so pretty to us that's beautiful, I love it but I too I don't
feel a connection to the ashesyeah, it's interesting how we
feel connections to differentthings or places, sometimes more
(48:25):
, given everything you've beenthrough in the last five years
and in life, it would be easyfor someone to be like, oh, it's
really hard to find hope.
But, like you said, you made aconscious choice to live.
I'm wondering what brings youhope in life?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (48:47):
you made a conscious choice to live.
I'm wondering what brings youhope in life?
Probably my boys, Like I.
I've said this before to others,but I want them to have just as
magical a life.
Yeah, Someone said it to meafter Carolina died.
Like you know, it looks likeshe had a pretty magical life.
Just looking through herpictures and hearing people's
stories at her funeral and it'sstuck with me and it was like
(49:10):
she did.
She had a wonderful life, andso I want that so much for them
and I don't want my life.
I'm not one of those parentsthat I'm only involved in them.
I need my own things and my ownhappiness and my own passions.
But I do feel passionate aboutmaking sure they also know that
(49:30):
they will have a wonderful lifeor they can have a wonderful
life, and that they can choosethat yeah and they are.
So that gives me hope, knowingthat hopefully they are, whether
they're modeling my husband andmyself, or if they're just
feeling that and knowing thatthey too will feel joy and
happiness again and they are andthey have makes me happy.
Lisa Danylchuk (49:54):
Yeah, definitely , and it happens often that
folks come on this podcast andpeople want to reach out to them
.
Are you on social media or isthere anywhere you'd want people
to connect with you?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (50:06):
I'm terrible with social media,
other than I do have Facebook,but I only became active because
of Carolina's page.
It does cause me to checkbecause I do get messages,
sometimes from people who youknow, friends of a friend or
some degree of separation, and Iwill probably never meet them,
but they might suddenly send mea message.
So I do make a point ofchecking and I always respond
(50:28):
because it is thoughtful and,carolina, you know, crossing
someone else's life that shewouldn't have normally and
someone told me about it, Ithink is really cool.
Lisa Danylchuk (50:39):
Have you had the experience of like getting a
picture that you hadn't seenbefore it still happens.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (50:45):
Her page has tons and people will send me
but they still pop up.
You know, like suddenly yourphone wants to show you a
picture and it doesn't even lineup to the day, but someone will
send it or I'll see it andforgot that I ever had it and I
really enjoy that.
Lisa Danylchuk (50:58):
Yeah, that's awesome, yeah, well, cheers to
your daughter, carolina MadridDieb.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (51:05):
Thank you .
Lisa Danylchuk (51:06):
Yeah, and her magical life, Thank you.
And thank you for sharing someof the up, the down, the around,
the swirl of it.
I know you're not alone.
I know no one's alone in this,even though it is our own path
to figure out and walk.
Hopefully that connection and Iknow you shared after the
(51:26):
funeral to that love that showsup is enough to keep us open
enough to move forward and keepshowing up for the other magical
lives that we're up to.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (51:35):
Yeah.
No, thank you.
I mean thank you from thebeginning.
I wish this wasn't the reasonwe reconnected as much as we
have, but you've guided me somuch and really buoyed me so
many times.
Lisa Danylchuk (51:48):
Oh, I'm happy to continue to.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (51:50):
Yes please.
Lisa Danylchuk (51:51):
You got my number.
I do, and I'm awake at 3amthese days, so anytime, any day,
you got it.
Thank you, Anna.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (52:00):
Thank you so much, Lisa.
This was, this was amazing.
Lisa Danylchuk (52:03):
Oh good, oh Anna .
Thank you so much, lisa.
This was amazing.
Oh good, oh God.
Thanks so much for listening.
Don't forget to go tohowwecanhealcom to sign up for
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(52:25):
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Visit howwecanhealcom forwardslash podcast to share your
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I love hearing from you.
Before we wrap up for today, Iwant to be clear that this
(52:47):
podcast isn't offeringprescriptions.
It's not advice, nor is it anykind of mental health treatment
or diagnosis.
Your decisions are in yourhands and I encourage you to
consult with any healthcareprofessionals you may need to
support you through your uniquepath of healing.
In addition, everyone's opinionhere is their own.
Guests share their thoughts,not that of the host or sponsors
(53:10):
.
I'd like to thank our gueststoday, everyone who helped
support this podcast directlyand indirectly.
Alex, shout out to you fortaking care of the babe and the
fur babies while I record.
Last but never least, I'd liketo give a shout out to my big
brother, matt, who passed awayin 2002.
He wrote this music and itmakes my heart so happy to share
it with you.
Season 5 of the How We Can Heal Podcast is
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(02:58):
Welcome back to the how we CanHeal podcast.
Today, our guest is AnnaRatnathacam Diab.
Anna and I met as high schoolstudents visiting the UCLA
campus and we're friendsthroughout our college years
together there.
Today we talk about herdaughter, Carolina Diab, who
passed away in 2019.
Anna shares her experiences asa parent, the story of the day
(03:23):
Carolina passed Heads up this isvery appropriately an emotional
story and how Anna's foundhealing after the trauma of
losing her daughter.
Anna shares about the many waysconnection has been helpful in
the wake of such a profound loss.
She shares her efforts to stayopen to a sense of spiritual
connection, her dedication toher sons having as magical a
(03:47):
life as Carolina did, and sheidentifies the supports that
helped her navigate thewhirlwind of emotions that come
with this kind of loss.
This episode is in honor ofCarolina, of my brother, matt,
who we talk about a bit here too, and of anyone you've loved who
you can't call or curl up nextto anymore.
It's also an offering to anyonewho's lost a child a trauma so
(04:12):
visceral that we don't oftentalk about it in the open and
the way we do here today.
I hope this conversation givesyou comfort, courage and,
especially if you've lost achild yourself, the knowledge
that, while your experience is,of course, unique, you're not
alone in your grief.
I hope you'll join me today inhonoring those we've loved and
(04:33):
lost and in giving the mostmassive hug to my dear friend
and our guest here today, AnnaDiab.
I was thinking, when kind ofleading up to this, about when
we met right.
.
.
I thought about that thismorning on my run.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (04:51):
actually Did you yeah, I really did.
Lisa Danylchuk (04:55):
The like blue super shuttle right.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (04:57):
The super shuttle, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (04:58):
On the way from LAX to Westwood to go check out
UCLA, I was trying to rememberwhat time of year that was.
It must have been like spring,because you've already been
accepted.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (05:10):
but there's still springtime.
Lisa Danylchuk (05:15):
We were what 17?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (05:18):
I would have still been 17.
Lisa Danylchuk (05:20):
Oh my goodness, like more than half a lifetime
ago.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (05:24):
Literally , yeah, yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (05:25):
Yeah, what do you remember from that?
That day?
That weekend we met.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (05:31):
I don't remember much.
I know you and I tried to go toa fraternity party.
Of course we did I don'tremember that, but I don't
actually remember anything UCLArelated that we did or
accomplished, and I don't evenknow if we got into a party, but
I know we tried.
That's so funny, I don'tremember.
Lisa Danylchuk (05:46):
I just remember meeting you in the super shuttle
and being like oh okay, cool,Someone else from my hometown,
she seems pretty cool, she wantsto go here too.
And then fast forward.
You ended up becoming reallyclose with Marietta, one of my
roommates.
So many fun stories that won'tmake it onto this podcast.
That will stay forever in therealm of no social media and no
video evidence so much better.
(06:07):
But I am really grateful that wemet and that we know each other
and we're here today to talkabout, like, the not so fun
things, not so much the fratparties, but more the hardest
things we go through in life.
You know, when I was at UCLA,my older brother passed away.
I was 22.
He was 25.
And then in 2019, december, youlost your daughter on a trip
(06:29):
with your family and that wasreally sudden.
And so now we have thisconnection that, like you never
want to have with anyone, but Ithink is also really powerful
and really helpful when thosethings do happen, to find those
people who have been throughsomething similar it's never
going to be the same but who canjust kind of grasp like, oh, I
(06:52):
have a taste for where you areright now.
Right, so I'm curious for youjust to back up a little.
I want to say Carolina's name,carolina, and I want to just
sort of almost invite her intothe space.
You and I talk about being likeyou're a science major and we're
like, very logical.
And then there's this spiritualelement that comes with loss at
(07:12):
times and sometimes it can behard to lean into that, but I
was doing yoga before this, as Ido, and I was thinking about
her and I was thinking about how, sometimes, when I'm doing
therapy sessions, I really feelsomeone with us, like we're
talking about someone who'ssessions.
I really feel someone with usLike we're talking about someone
who's passed and I really feelthem, and so I just wanted to
like open the door to that, solike having her here with us.
(07:32):
Like my producer sometimescomes on.
She's not here today, butshe'll be in the background on
the Zoom and you don't see herface and you don't hear her
voice, but she's just sort ofthere.
You know, while we're at it, wecan invite Matt too, we can
invite whoever, but just to likekeep that presence with us and
that presence alive.
Does that work for you?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (07:49):
It does, and this is where you've helped
me.
You know I struggle with how doI connect or how do I feel her
presence, and that I still havea lot of work to do.
So I appreciate you saying thatand it encourages me to be a
little more open to that.
Lisa Danylchuk (08:07):
Yeah, yeah.
So I want to hear your story,Carolina's story.
How did she come to be in yourworld?
Did you always want a family?
How did you feel about having adaughter?
I know as a podcast host, I'mnot supposed to ask you 12
questions at the same time, butjust let us know what.
What was that?
How did she come into your life?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (08:27):
I knew I always, like you, I have two
brothers, so growing up havingsiblings was just my norm, and
so I knew I wanted to have afamily, and my husband felt the
same when he got married.
He also came from three kidsgrowing up together, and so it
was just kind of assumed thatthat's what we would do.
But it certainly was.
(08:48):
You know, that moment you seethat positive pregnancy test,
it's like whoa, whoa, whoa.
Lisa Danylchuk (08:54):
Maybe I wasn't quite ready.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (08:55):
You know there's a fear that sets in.
I was excited.
I'm one of those miserablepregnant people.
I was sick all the time so Iwasn't excited.
Really, yeah, the idea wasexciting.
Lisa Danylchuk (09:06):
What do you remember about her birth, her
early years?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (09:10):
Her birth was easy, thank goodness.
I felt like.
Lisa Danylchuk (09:13):
I paid my dues pregnant and the early years
were.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (09:16):
I mean, you know it changes your whole
world, obviously, and I found itrather isolating I was young
among my friends to have kids.
I was 28.
And you know, I'm used to justworking and that's what I have
to talk about, and I havefriends who have similar things
to talk about, and suddenly allI had to talk about was how I
(09:37):
went to Target that day.
Lisa Danylchuk (09:40):
Which is a huge accomplishment, by the way.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (09:43):
It is, but when you say it out loud
it's like oh.
Lisa Danylchuk (09:46):
Right.
People are like okay if they'renot in that world.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (09:50):
Right.
So I mean I look back and ofcourse I would do it all again,
but those were hard early years.
Carolee was easy enough, but Ididn't.
I'm not a baby mom.
I needed her to grow up alittle bit and then I was better
.
Lisa Danylchuk (10:10):
Yeah, yeah.
And what was she like?
What personality did you seeemerging?
What were some of the funmoments with her as she started
to get older?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (10:15):
She was always funny, kind of silly,
happy.
I mean I'm sure I thought shewas difficult at the time, but
no, the minute my middle my sonwas born.
You know.
She took him under her wing andshe was the boss and he looked
up to her and she exploited thatto the best of her abilities
and she bounced around.
She wanted to do what herfriends were doing.
Lisa Danylchuk (10:37):
What are some of the things that have become
signs of hurt to you?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (10:43):
Some of them are I don't think generic
is the right word but thingslike rainbows and bright colors,
which are not obviously uniquejust to her.
But she was in a phase whereshe was colors and patterns.
You know, my husband used tosay she dresses pattern on
pattern on pattern.
When I see, especially if I see, another kid around the same
age dressed like that, it makesme kind of chuckle to myself
(11:06):
remembering that.
You know that parent probablylooked at their child and said
here we go, here we go today.
Yeah, candy, everyone seems toassociate her with sweets and
candy.
She loved it, was proud of herobsession flaunted it.
I have these TikTok videos ofher now in her account and so
many of them are her likesneaking candy around the house
(11:27):
or hiding wrappers, and it'sfunny.
Lisa Danylchuk (11:32):
Did you ever find those wrappers?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (11:34):
Yes, yes, when she was live, yes, I found
stashes of them.
And then even that last, maybeup to a year after she died, I
found wrappers here and there,and it was funny.
Lisa Danylchuk (11:44):
Wow, that must have been funny but also a
little bit hard, like a littlemoment of connection to her.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (11:50):
For sure yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (11:52):
I ask these questions because I know a big
part of you continuing to talkabout what you went through,
which is obviously like one ofthe most difficult things anyone
can go through, is like keepingher, her spirit, alive and
keeping her with us andremembering some of those things
that might seem funny or justdaily.
You know daily things eatingcandy, wearing bright colors.
(12:14):
For both of us, we experienceda loss that happened really
quickly and I know you were on atrip in Uganda and, honestly,
like I've just never.
I think I learned about whathappened from your Facebook post
, which said something to theeffect of this is never supposed
to happen or it was neversupposed to be this way, which I
can totally relate to.
Do you want to tell the storyof what happened when you lost
(12:38):
her, or does that feel like, oh,I've gone through that so many
times or it might be too painful?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (12:43):
No, I can can talk about it.
I think it's hard and emotional, but I always feel a catharsis
to it after, like it's not heronly story, but it's still her
story.
Yeah, and it's part of it.
Lisa Danylchuk (12:54):
I mean, I'd love to hear it, just as your friend
, if you want to share yeah,we'd probably been in Uganda
four days, I think.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (13:01):
At that point everyone was fine.
You've traveled a lot Like wewere jet lagged and probably
dehydrated and we celebrated.
She had the best last day.
We didn't know that at the time, but they threw a birthday
party for her at the lodge thatevening.
And the next day we got on asmall flight to go more remote
and she was complaining of aheadache and we were trying to
(13:23):
pack up and I'm sure I wassnippy, you know, like just
drink some water.
She wouldn't drink water, butit was nothing crazy.
We got on the flight and we gotto the lodge.
Julian, my middle, had eatensomething funky.
That didn't agree with him, sohe wanted to lie down and she
said she did too.
And we were eating lunch.
My dad and my brother and hisgirlfriend were there and my
(13:45):
youngest was there and myhusband came back and said she's
throwing up, she's asking foryou.
So I was kind of like okay.
I walked back to our room atthis lodge and she was sick on
the bed and she looked at me andshe said mama, I don't want to
(14:09):
die.
And you know, as a parent, youknow, I said of course you're
not, let's move over to theother bed.
We'll get you cleaned up,you'll be fine.
And she looked at Julian andsaid Julian, I love you.
And she was unconsciousprobably 10 minutes later.
Lisa Danylchuk (14:31):
Wow.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (14:32):
And so we got.
The camp nurse was there, Camparranged for a ride to the
hospital.
They said we're going to go tothe farther one, it's better,
and we spent the next 14 hoursthere.
She never regainedconsciousness, but we were.
You don't think of the worst.
You can't imagine.
It was like it's going to befine.
Lisa Danylchuk (14:51):
Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (14:52):
But it was just a lot with Medivac and
we had approval to go to Nairobiwith her and I think we just
thought and hoped like, okay,that's going to happen, we're
going to go to a bigger hospitaland it's going to be fine.
My brother's girlfriend, liz,stayed back at the camp with the
boys.
It was the middle of the nightand my dad and brother were
trying to work with the moneyback and going back and forth
(15:14):
with the drivers.
Suddenly I felt her heart ratein her chest and it was not
normal.
I yelled for the doctor and thenext two hours were chest
compressions and intubation andall the things that you don't
ever want to see.
And after a while it becameclear that it wasn't going to.
She wasn't going to make it.
(15:35):
There were two doctors and Isaid is anything going to change
?
And she said how long till yourbrother and dad get here?
And I said probably 20 minutes.
They were in the car and wewere texting and she said we can
keep going till then.
And I was just like if this, isit like, if it's not going to
change, just stop pressing onher.
And she said are you sure?
And I said yeah, wow, yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (16:03):
It's just the most painful experience, and I
mean, my mind goes to worst casescenario all the time oh my god
, is she okay?
Oh my god, is this going tohappen?
To fix this and make sure she'sokay.
At the same time, though,you're describing this like no,
it's going to be fine.
It's going to be fine likewe're going to.
We have to right because youhave to, because there's no
(16:25):
other option, like the onlyoption is get you to the next
care and get you better and getyou better.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (16:31):
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (16:32):
Oh I.
I feel like there's a momentthere of acceptance or surrender
for you to say if it's notgoing to change, just let her be
.
What do you have a sense ofwhat happened for you in that
moment or what led you to thatchoice?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (16:53):
I knew Gibran had already realized it.
I was hanging on so hard that Icouldn't see it.
You know, when you kind ofbalance out with a partner in
any situation, one person'sstruggling, the other kind of
buoys the opposite directionjust to keep it even and I was
so firm that it's okay, eventhough no, I mean, all the signs
(17:16):
around me showed that it wasn't, but my brain couldn't even go
there yeah just the way thatdoctor looked at me and said it
won't make a difference.
I had to let her be so intenseto watch chest compressions and
it was was a lot, so I just saidplease stop pressing on her.
Lisa Danylchuk (17:32):
I think of how we respond emotionally in those
moments.
I feel like I would just break.
And what do I mean by that?
Like your heartbreak, your bodyor everything breaks in half,
or you're like crying, or likedid you hug Gibran?
Did you collapse on the floor?
Do you remember, even after yourealized like this might be it,
(17:57):
this is it, yeah I don't thinkwe hugged if we did it was, it
was not right away yeah
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (18:05):
I remember I texted my brother and
my dad because they were goingto walk into it being done, just
so they knew.
And then I crawled into the bedwith her and I yelled for a
blanket and I sobbed and Icalled a handful of people that
I, for me, I don't know I had tolike scream it out there.
And then I remember they said Ihad to get out of the room,
(18:27):
they had to prep her forwhatever they do and it was a
remote hospital and so when youwalk outside the door of the
room, you walk to the outside.
That was the pediatric wing andit was dark.
It was three in the morning andthere was like a dirt hill and
there were all these eyes in thedark and it was all the women
from the nearby.
(18:48):
I'm sure words spread quickly.
That American Child was thereand they probably heard.
I'm sure they heard everythingthose last couple hours and they
were all sniffling and one ofthem moved over.
There was one bench and for meto sit there and it was in
hindsight, it was so beautiful.
(19:08):
But yeah, I did collapse on thedirt at one point I remember I
just couldn't hold myself up.
Yeah, I cried.
I probably made really strangecrying sounds.
Lisa Danylchuk (19:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (19:21):
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (19:24):
So the people there were sad with you were
supportive you or present orwitnessing what was happening.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (19:32):
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (19:33):
And we're offering some some sense of care
or what they could.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (19:37):
They were , they couldn't, they didn't
speak English, we didn't speak,they just sat there for the next
.
It was probably two or threehours before an ambulance got
there to to take her.
Yeah, and they followed us tothe ambulance and I remember
when they shut the door and Iturned around and they all put
their right hand up these women.
(19:57):
It was the most striking humanthing maybe I've ever seen wow.
Lisa Danylchuk (20:04):
How did that impact you in the moment
emotionally?
Did you feel like it helped orsupported you at all?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (20:11):
I felt supported.
I was swirling in my mind.
I noted it.
I don't think I could take itin as much as I could after,
when I realized how remarkableit was that they were there in
the middle of the night.
They didn't know us, but theywere feeling for us.
Yeah, it's quite meaningful tome now.
Lisa Danylchuk (20:30):
What has sustained you in facing this
loss?
You mentioned calling peopleright away, just needing to
shout out what was happeningthose first few minutes, hours,
days.
There's so much shock.
What helped you then, andwhat's helped in the years that
have passed since then?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (20:54):
It's probably the same, just in a
different way.
Just people showing up showingus that they were thinking about
Carolina it wasn't about noteven the boys yet and Giovanna
myself, it was just think of her.
Just the logistics of bringingsomeone back internationally is
(21:16):
daunting and piled on.
Why you're doing it?
It was a lot that part's blurry, but a Facebook page was put up
right away and I spent, youknow, the dark hours, sleepless
hours of the night reading thesemessages and some people I knew
, and some people I didn't atall, and they were thinking of
Carolina and that helped so much.
And since then, of course, it'sless intense, right Anytime
(21:41):
after someone passes, as timemarches on, but people like you
who just remind me that she'snot forgotten.
I think what I panicked with,especially soon after she died,
was that how, what if she'sforgotten?
What if people don't rememberafter this, after the funeral is
(22:02):
over, after the first year isover?
But they haven't.
People continue to remind meand that's for me, a really big
bit of peace.
Lisa Danylchuk (22:12):
I know I was even thinking when you were
talking about the birthday partyshe had.
She loved her birthday, rightLoved, and I share that.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (22:20):
You are one of those people, aren't you?
Oh yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (22:23):
I love my birthday.
It went from birthday to birthweek to birthday month, birthday
month.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (22:27):
Oh yeah, yeah, she was trending towards.
She would have been that.
Lisa Danylchuk (22:29):
She was trending right.
I feel this kindred spirit withher there like hey, I see you
and I think of her for at leastthe latter half of December,
right, because there's thisjoyous birthday and then there's
a day that she passed so closetogether and I imagine,
especially with the holidaysright there, that's just
wrecking emotionally for you,like so much, so much right
(22:54):
there packed into a short periodof time.
I'm always thinking of herduring that time and the joy of
the birthday and the celebrating, and then you know, oh, how old
would she be right now, right,and then also just the
recognition of what people leavebehind, the impact of all the
(23:17):
relationships and all maybe thehopes or the dreams or the other
things.
At UCLA, right, interpersonalcommunication studies, and you
know we had studied ElizabethKubler-Ross's stages of grief.
I remember just being like F,all these pamphlets that are
(23:38):
like so organized and left brainso linear, like first there's
this and I do think there'ssomething that shifts between
the first few days or weeks andthe first few months or the
first year.
But it was just.
I mean, I described it like ifmy life before this were a piece
, were a puzzle and I werepiecing it together.
(23:59):
Someone just took the puzzlepieces, soak them up in like a
smoothie, threw them in theblender and then poured it out
on the table and I got to makesomething out of it.
There wasn't like, oh, I'm sosad.
I mean, of course I was sad, ohI'm angry, of course I was, but
like it didn't.
For me it didn't come throughlike shock, denial, anger,
(24:24):
acceptance.
It was just a big mix.
I think that in and of itselfwas challenging right, like I
had never been through somethinglike that before.
So it was just like how do Ieven?
I think that's why yoga is sogood for me, it was just like
breathe and notice.
Whatever notice, however it is,you don't even have to label it
.
So what was it like initially?
And how would you describe itemotionally a few years on?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (24:50):
Same as you.
There were no stages of grief,no one tried to hand me a
pamphlet, thank goodness.
But there was certainly aperiod of shock.
Even though you knew, yourbrain knew what had happened,
you couldn't even reallyunderstand it.
I think that swirl of I neverfelt angry, but just confused
(25:13):
and sadness that first year Ithink for most it's just kind of
unrelenting and you don't knowwhen or where you're going to
feel, brushed down by whateveremotion.
I found that very unstablefeeling in that first year.
Since then the waves aresmaller.
(25:35):
Usually they're predictable.
You know obvious days like theanniversary, and you know
there's a bittersweet to herbirthday or family occasions
where you know that personshould be there.
There's still moments thatsuddenly trip me up.
Now I know you just have to sitin it and it will pass and
(25:57):
you'll put yourself backtogether again.
Lisa Danylchuk (26:00):
Like waves really.
I relate to that a lot and Iremember just the weight of the
first year, almost it feelingconstant at first and then
having little moments of mayberelief and the little moments
getting longer and then it'sstarting to feel more like, oh,
there's these chunks of griefcoming through and the rest of
(26:21):
my there's something else, thatI'm standing on, and that those
waves are coming through ratherthan just being tossed around in
the current as you go.
It's like, oh, okay, now thisis a wave and this is a wave,
and then, further on, getting tothe sense of really knowing,
almost expecting it and beingable to ride it for the longest
time.
Right around the anniversary ofhis death, which was in July,
(26:44):
like a day or two before, Iwould just be like so off
emotionally and I would maybehave planned to take the
anniversary day off.
I might've planned to go for awalk or, you know do something
that made me feel a little bitmore connected to him or was a
you know dedication or anoffering, but it would usually
(27:06):
be a few days before and I'd belike what is happening?
It always shocked me how muchyour body knows these things at
such a deep level and yourpsyche is just so attuned, even
if waking, conscious, wise,you're like I'm just doing this
today, right?
Did you experience that too,those moments where you like
don't know, you didn't see itcoming and it just kind of waves
(27:30):
over you still?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (27:32):
I still do, and it's that build up right
.
You were saying like a few daysbefore the week before.
That's the worst part.
Yeah, it's interesting to mebecause the worst already
happened, so that initially itfelt like maybe she died again
on that day.
But there's still some sortthat's the worst part.
Yeah, it's interesting to mebecause the worst already
happened, so initially it feltlike maybe she died again on
that day, but there's still somesort of anxiety approaching,
especially that day and even amonth before my sleep starts
(27:53):
getting really funky.
I can't control it, I just waitfor it to be done.
Lisa Danylchuk (28:01):
These things are big and as much as you love
someone is, as much as it feelspainful when they're gone, and
so for anyone listening who'sgoing through this, you're not
alone.
When it's messy and it can bereally gnarly emotionally in a
way that I don't think we canreally capture in words, but I
do think it helps to know thatthere are other people out here
(28:24):
and it's not something wrongwith you to grieve in this way.
In fact, it's like reallynormal and helpful to be able to
connect with it and process itin the way that works best for
you.
Anna Ratnathicam Dia (28:36):
Absolutely , I think, sharing and being
open and being reminded, eventhough everyone's story is
unique, obviously because theirrelationship is unique, I have
found it so helpful to be.
I don't know how else I can beother than open, but that's,
it's helpful.
Lisa Danylchuk (28:53):
Yeah, and you said that even when I asked you
do you want to talk about thison the podcast?
You're like it seems to behelpful to stay open and share,
and I think there's connectionon the other side of it seems to
be helpful to stay open andshare, and I think there's
connection on the other side ofthat too.
Right, like absolutely yeah.
So we talked a little bit aboutthis.
How have your thoughts orbeliefs changed since December
(29:15):
of 2019?
Like, what has shifted in youand the way you think, feel and
the way you are in the world?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (29:24):
shifted in you and the way you think,
feel and the way you are in theworld.
I don't know if my husband andkids would say the same, but I
think I've let go of a lot.
I'm one of those who I likecontrol.
I like managing and having myducks in a row and we all know
that you can't always have yourducks in a row but this this
pulled everything out fromunderneath me.
I couldn't control it and Ithink it has softened.
(29:48):
I still like to control thingsand I still like ducks in a row,
but I think I've let go of alot of the deeper need for
control.
I think I'm more open to otherpeople and just enjoying being
present, and that's probably mybiggest shift being more present
(30:11):
, more picky about where Ichoose to be present, maybe but,
really being present, beingpresent for my boys has been a
big one.
Lisa Danylchuk (30:19):
And that perspective with loss is really
powerful of like.
None of this is guaranteed andfor me that it helps with just
being present with life.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (30:33):
It does, and there's still, obviously,
all those moments that are sofrustrating and irritating, but
I now catch myself mayberemembering that this will pass
and, like you said, nothing ispromised.
It is a good, broaderperspective than I had before.
Lisa Danylchuk (30:51):
And you also mentioned being more intentional
about where you're present,right Like, where is your
attention and is this reallythat important?
Do I need to be renting outmental space in my brain for
this little hiccup about work orthis technology, frustration or
whatever else is happening, soit can kind of recenter you that
way too.
Anna Ratnathicam Dia (31:11):
Absolutely .
Lisa Danylchuk (31:13):
And in terms of spirituality, where do you land
with that?
Is it still a challenge?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (31:18):
It's still a challenge.
I'm not religious and even if Iwere, I joined a grief group
for a couple of years because ofCOVID.
But there was one couple inthere and they were very
religious and this shatteredthat for them, because they're
like yeah we kind of know whereshe is, but how could this
happen?
And so I don't know that.
That would give me an obviousbit of assurance that she's
(31:41):
somewhere.
But I believe she's somewhere.
I don't believe that you justdisappear, but I don't know
where she is and I don't knowhow to find her.
Not yet, I'm trying.
Lisa Danylchuk (31:55):
And there are these little moments like I
think you messaged me when youwere in Kauai and there was a
rainbow and a hummingbird orsomething like this moments that
you just feel.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (32:04):
And it sounds so hokey, but but I felt
it.
Lisa Danylchuk (32:07):
Yeah, and that's the part that I feel is
important to trust.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (32:12):
Yeah, you , you actually told me that I
think it was about a bush.
This was years ago.
Yes, that lit up for you, yes,and you were using that as an
example to coach me, like noone's going to tell you
otherwise, like no one can tellyou that that was or was not
Matt, and that helps me toremember, to open myself up in
those moments, that maybe, maybe, it can be her.
Lisa Danylchuk (32:34):
Yes, oh, I love that you remember the bush too.
I remember the bush, I rememberthe bush, and this was 20 years
ago, solid, more, oh, wow.
I was driving on Montana fromBrentwood towards Santa Monica,
going to yoga, as we do, andthere's a curve in the road and
I think it's a golf course thatyou're curving along the edge of
yeah, there is.
(32:56):
And right in front of you Idon't know if it's still there
there was a bush and there weresome flowers on it.
Don't know if it's still there.
There was a bush and there weresome flowers on it.
They were pink and blooming and, for whatever reason, they were
like vibrant alive, not so muchI mean visually, but there was
just a aura or a feeling and Ijust felt like that's my brother
, like it's confusing to sayhe's not here in body, but I
(33:19):
felt such a vibe from it and Ihad this moment of like, okay,
like I.
I don't get that, but sure Come.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (33:27):
So you accepted it right away.
Lisa Danylchuk (33:29):
Bush or be the thing that I'm driving towards,
that I'll turn and drive around,but just anything like you're
going to be here with me, great.
And the thing I love about someof those moments is that I
wasn't looking for it in themoment, because sometimes people
are like, oh you poor sad,grieving person, you're just
making stuff up because you'reso attached.
Maybe that's just someinternalized criticism, but I
(33:51):
feel like sometimes people kindof come from that really logical
place where they're like, oh,you don't know.
Like, oh, I don't know, but I'mchoosing to trust that this
means something and I can'texplain it.
Some of them are a little morestark.
Or you share the story of like ahummingbird and a rainbow and
people are like, oh, they getthat.
Those are common symbols, right?
(34:12):
I had a hawk that followed me.
I was moving from Seattle,which is where I lived, when he
passed back down to California.
I was driving down the Oregoncoast and I swear like from
Portland out to the coast anddown there was this bird and I
had the old Acura Integra.
I remember that car.
You remember that car?
I do.
You've been in that car andthis bird was following my car
(34:35):
for miles, like from Portland,somewhere between Portland and
the coast, and then south Mileslike hours.
I would look up oh it's stillthere.
Oh, it's still there.
How do I explain this?
This is the most random thingSomeone might be like.
There was some piece of preystuck to the top of your car and
it was chasing it or whatever,but it just felt like a sign.
(34:57):
It just felt like something.
It just felt like a visit.
For me.
It was really important to notget stuck in my head about it
and just felt like something.
It just felt like a visit forme.
It was really important to notget stuck in my head about it
and just be like okay, hi, andthen to even speak out loud
whatever I might want to say atthe moment.
Hey, matt, I'm moving fromSeattle back down.
I have a couple more classes totake at UCLA.
I miss you.
Whatever.
To speak it out loud sometimeshelped too.
(35:18):
Do you ever have a chance to dothat?
To like speak out loud or write.
Does that happen for you?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (35:25):
I do.
Actually, I've not been writingso much this year.
We're in a temporary rentalwhile we redo our house and I
used to only write to her inCarolina's room.
I would go sit there with myjournal and write to her.
I don't have a space for herright now, so I have not been
writing as much, but I'll talkto her somehow I can do that.
(35:46):
So I must in those moments atleast hope enough that she can
hear me.
Lisa Danylchuk (35:52):
And what would you say to her right now if she
were on a call?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (35:56):
Oh, I would start crying yeah, yeah, I
would just tell her I miss her.
I think that's all I could getout so far.
Lisa Danylchuk (36:03):
I think one of the hardest things is like
that's it, that's the beginning,middle end of like that
manifestation of this spirit,this person.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (36:10):
Yeah, it's hard not to think about all
the things they don't get to do.
Lisa Danylchuk (36:17):
Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (36:18):
Matt doesn't get to meet Isabella.
I know Helena doesn't get togrow up.
We doesn't get to meet Isabella.
I know Carolina doesn't get togrow up, we don't get to figure
out.
What would she do, what wouldshe be like?
I think those are the harderthoughts 100%.
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (36:32):
There might be parents who are a week out, a
month out, a year out or 20years out listening to this.
Yeah, what would you say toother parents who've lost a
child?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (36:43):
20 years out listening to this, what
would you say to other parentswho've lost a child?
I know for me not that I didn'twant to hear anything, but I
couldn't take in.
The grief will morph, it willbe different, it will be easier.
I didn't want to hear that.
I didn't want to sit in mygrief forever.
Like you said, at one year yourealize I don't want my life to
be dominated by losing Matt.
You knew I didn't want that.
(37:03):
Realize I don't want my life tobe dominated by losing Matt.
You knew I didn't want that.
I don't want my life defined bythis loss.
It's now part of my story butit's not going to run my life.
But I think I thought if I takein that, the grief will change,
it will morph, it'll be fartheraway from the days when
Carolina was here.
I didn't want that, even thoughI didn't want to exist in that
(37:27):
relentless wave.
Someone said once something tothe effect of, if you look at it
, not in a morbid way but nowyou're living and getting closer
to the day when you'll be withher again.
Whatever that means was abetter spin on it for me.
Lisa Danylchuk (37:43):
Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (37:44):
The only thing I could tell someone that
I would have been able to takein was that you will feel joy
again.
Lisa Danylchuk (37:50):
Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (37:51):
Not that I wasn't happy in moments, but
like actual joy.
And I remember when I felt itfor the first time because it
caught me and I kind of stoppedfor a minute and it was the
silliest reason you'll laugh,but but I felt it and I knew it
was pure and it was proof to melike this will it won't be okay,
(38:13):
but it will be okay.
Lisa Danylchuk (38:14):
What was it?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (38:16):
It must've been just over a year
ago after Carolina died, somaybe it was spring of 21 and
UCLA basketball was I don't knowif they were in March madness
or approaching it, but they hadthe game and we had it on me and
it was COVID.
Everyone was home anyway and itwas exciting and you know we
used to go like we would campout for those games, so it was
(38:40):
something that I knew.
I used to enjoy and I got socaught up into the game and kind
of like yelled and clappedwhatever good thing had happened
, and that was the moment Iimmediately stopped because it
felt so foreign.
Lisa Danylchuk (38:52):
Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (38:53):
But it felt foreign in a good way, Like
oh yeah, I will feel this again.
Lisa Danylchuk (38:57):
Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (38:58):
But it was.
It was very strange and silly.
Lisa Danylchuk (39:01):
Yeah, it like really drew you in and there's
so many associations with thatfrom the past.
And then all of a, sudden.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (39:07):
Where is that coming from?
Yeah, and that was nice to feel.
Lisa Danylchuk (39:12):
I love that that it was a basketball game.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (39:16):
Oh my gosh.
Lisa Danylchuk (39:16):
I don't know if you've ever met my friend from
growing up.
She's my best friend my wholelife, katrina, we call each
other Weenie.
She caught one time time wewere on the phone.
It was maybe a year ish out andI don't know what it was, but I
laughed and she went oh, weenie, you laughed.
I haven't heard you laugh in solong and I was like oh right,
(39:36):
like wow, wow, like I didn'tnotice it so much, but she, she
did.
And then when she reflectedthat, I was like, yeah, it's
been rough, right, like youhaven't heard me laugh in a year
, but it does come back right,it does come back.
Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (39:54):
It does come back if you allow it to,
and and I want it.
I want it to um, yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (40:01):
And I can just imagine Carolina, like right by
your side, like go, go, go.
She probably watched some UCLAbasketball with you.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (40:08):
I may have dragged her to Vegas a
couple of times for March.
Madness, yes, you did.
I love that the two of us went.
She didn't really care, but Imade her go.
Lisa Danylchuk (40:17):
She's like yay trip with mama.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (40:18):
Sounds great.
We had fun right.
Lisa Danylchuk (40:20):
Yeah, that's amazing.
You mentioned earlier a griefgroup.
Would you recommend that tofolks?
I know it's so individual, butare there any resources or
places?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (40:34):
or websites or things that helped
you navigate through.
I joined the grief group.
Jabron came with me the firsttime.
He's like this is not for me,that was okay.
We grieved on our own path.
We didn't try to do it together.
I don't even know if I liked it.
I don't know if you like griefgroups, but I don't know if I
felt anything from it initially.
But I knew I had work to do andI didn't know what it looked
(40:55):
like and so I threw myself into.
I'm going to do this griefgroup on my own.
I wanted to do family grieftherapy for the boys.
Covid hit just a few monthslater, so our options were
limited.
To have kids sit on a couch andstare at a computer screen and
try to do art therapy doesn'twork well.
But I felt we all needed to dosome sort of work at least the
(41:16):
first year.
And Gibran and I did grieftherapy on our own.
So it was a lot, but I justfelt like I just need to see
what sticks.
I don't regret any of it.
It was easy to do all that.
Not easy, but it was COVID.
We weren't going anywhere.
So to have a few meetings aweek online was fine.
It was something to do.
Lisa Danylchuk (41:36):
I think it's important, like you said, it's
not like you're going to like itnecessarily, but just finding
what sticks.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (41:42):
Yeah, my grief group ended up, but you
just can't take in someoneelse's loss when you're so raw
yourself, and so it took a whilefor me to actually feel like I
could incorporate their storiesand connect with them.
Yeah, I'm glad I did it for me,just to be reminded that you're
not alone.
Even though your loss is unique, it's not just you.
Yeah, I think it's important totry something.
(42:05):
Yeah, just to dig in myselfinto a hole and throw a blanket
over my head Like I wanted tolive.
I wanted to be present formyself, for my kids.
Lisa Danylchuk (42:14):
Yeah, so it was a conscious choice.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (42:16):
It was a conscious choice.
I knew I couldn't do nothing.
Lisa Danylchuk (42:21):
Did you ever try yoga?
No, do nothing, did you?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (42:30):
ever try yoga.
No, next time in LA we're goingto go to a class.
Lisa Danylchuk (42:32):
Okay, I've tried a couple of times and I'm
probably pretty terrible at it,but I would be open to trying.
Yeah, that was like the thingthat stuck for me before that.
I was doing so many thingsoutdoors.
All this stuff and outdoors issomething that's really healing
for me now, but at the time Iwas just like yoga, this is,
it's doing something.
Yeah, I can't explain it, butthat led to this whole career
trajectory of like trying tofigure it out.
Like why was that the thing forme and why is that the thing
(42:53):
for some people?
Like I do think that it'sindividual for everyone and it
was.
Yeah, it was interesting to mehow powerful yoga was and then
it was really interesting tolearn all these reasons why
later, like then, I got to geekout on it.
Oh, my goodness, like there'san alpha theta response when you
close your eyes and you leanback and you cover your eyes.
(43:15):
Wow, how interesting.
Just to speak to her and keepher here with us.
What are some of your mosttreasured memories with Carolina
?
To speak to her and keep herhere with us what are some of
your most treasured memorieswith carolina?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (43:25):
probably those vegas trips were a couple
that stand out to me.
It was just fun, it was justtime us yeah she could do
anything and we'd go.
I didn't have to say no toanything.
It was just her time with meand I enjoyed doing that with
her and I think she enjoyed itwith me.
Planning her birthday partieswas miserable at the time but
(43:50):
always ended up fun.
She always had to do somethingcompletely different and I miss
that.
I think, around her birthday,just listening to months of
planning and ideas.
But I still have those journalsand pages that she wrote, so
it's nice to look back on those.
I could have sent her notesover to you if she were here.
Lisa Danylchuk (44:07):
Oh, totally.
I would have been the mostexcited little auntie on the
side being like, okay, and thenwe can add this Are there any
fireworks yet?
And how will you continue tohonor Carolina?
And how?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (44:25):
will you continue to honor Carolina?
Just for me, even little thingsthe last years I've bought.
Carolina was in Girl Scouts,and so we buy a ton of boxes
from her troop One of herclosest girlfriends is still in
it and we give them to theeducators and staff at school
that have been so amazing to usthese past years, and all of
Carolina's old teachers.
So that helps each year and ithelps me be reminded once again
(44:52):
that she's she's remembered, andnot on the daily by most people
, but the minute they get ittheir faces light up and I have
a sticker that I put on it.
So that was fun.
My dad has a nonprofit in SriLanka and they each year do a
donation to needy children witha picture of Carolina on it.
All these small things puttogether and then being in touch
(45:13):
with her friends is my hearthealer.
They are amazing girls.
They keep me involved in theirlife and it helps me feel like
Carolina still can be here.
If I watch them, I don't knowwhat she would be like, but I
know I can't have a good guessbased on how they are.
Lisa Danylchuk (45:31):
And they're still feeling really connected
to her too, right.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (45:35):
They are.
They've gone their separateways.
They're in high school now but,they come together.
We had dinner the other nightand I take them out for
Carolina's birthday for lunchand they come together and they
have this bond of thisexperience and this friend and
it's really sweet.
I hope for all the years tocome that they can always circle
(45:55):
back if given the opportunity.
Lisa Danylchuk (45:57):
Didn't you have a square dedicated to her name?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (46:00):
Yes, One of her girlfriend's dad filed a
petition to have the square.
It's the intersection outsideof our elementary school named
the Carolina Madrid Diab Square.
He didn't tell us because hedidn't know if it would be
approved.
When it was, he told them tohold and ask our permission.
And it's, you know, she's notburied, she's cremated, so we
don't have a place to go visither.
(46:22):
Yeah, she cremated, so we don'thave a place to go visit her.
Yeah, or we wouldn't have had.
And this square, on all fourcorners there's a sign with her
name and it's big and wedecorate it every year on the
24th on her birthday, and herfriends show up and some people
in the community now show up andwe've got donuts and coffee and
it's.
It is a place I can bring herflowers there yeah, that's right
(46:45):
, and I do often yeah what athoughtful gesture it was
amazing.
I didn't realize the importanceof having a place, yeah, to go
visit her and now I do.
Lisa Danylchuk (46:58):
I haven't been there.
So, yeah, we're on our way toyoga.
After yoga, we'll go sit there.
I think after then we have moretime we can sit, bring flowers.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (47:06):
Is Matt buried or cremated?
Lisa Danylchuk (47:08):
He's cremated and we never spread it.
I think early on we were tryingto coordinate and trying to
choose like the perfect spot.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (47:14):
Right.
Lisa Danylchuk (47:15):
And we all had a little bit different ideas.
I was like how about the top ofthis mountain?
We climbed together and then myparents thought, well, what
about this field where wepicnicked?
It didn't feel like wedisagreed, it just felt like we
didn't land on something.
That was like yeah, that soundsgreat.
Do you still have the ashes ordid you spread them?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (47:33):
We didn't spread them.
We have them.
It was.
You know she was 11.
So it wasn't like she lovedsailing, or you know that she
would belong in the ocean, or ifshe belongs here with us.
Lisa Danylchuk (47:44):
Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (47:45):
It was never a talk to put her anywhere
or spread her ashes or bury her, so we commissioned a Japanese
artist to create a piece ofglass for her that looks like a
whimsical cookie jar in a way.
Lisa Danylchuk (48:01):
Yeah.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (48:01):
And it's made of her favorite colors that
she had at the time.
Lisa Danylchuk (48:05):
And you know, the cookie, a kind of a nod to
her sweet tooth, yep, and soit's a piece of glass that if
you didn't know, you wouldn'tthink of it as an urn, but it's
so pretty to us that's beautiful, I love it but I too I don't
feel a connection to the ashesyeah, it's interesting how we
feel connections to differentthings or places, sometimes more
(48:25):
, given everything you've beenthrough in the last five years
and in life, it would be easyfor someone to be like, oh, it's
really hard to find hope.
But, like you said, you made aconscious choice to live.
I'm wondering what brings youhope in life?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (48:47):
you made a conscious choice to live.
I'm wondering what brings youhope in life?
Probably my boys, Like I.
I've said this before to others,but I want them to have just as
magical a life.
Yeah, Someone said it to meafter Carolina died.
Like you know, it looks likeshe had a pretty magical life.
Just looking through herpictures and hearing people's
stories at her funeral and it'sstuck with me and it was like
(49:10):
she did.
She had a wonderful life, andso I want that so much for them
and I don't want my life.
I'm not one of those parentsthat I'm only involved in them.
I need my own things and my ownhappiness and my own passions.
But I do feel passionate aboutmaking sure they also know that
(49:30):
they will have a wonderful lifeor they can have a wonderful
life, and that they can choosethat yeah and they are.
So that gives me hope, knowingthat hopefully they are, whether
they're modeling my husband andmyself, or if they're just
feeling that and knowing thatthey too will feel joy and
happiness again and they are andthey have makes me happy.
Lisa Danylchuk (49:54):
Yeah, definitely , and it happens often that
folks come on this podcast andpeople want to reach out to them
.
Are you on social media or isthere anywhere you'd want people
to connect with you?
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (50:06):
I'm terrible with social media,
other than I do have Facebook,but I only became active because
of Carolina's page.
It does cause me to checkbecause I do get messages,
sometimes from people who youknow, friends of a friend or
some degree of separation, and Iwill probably never meet them,
but they might suddenly send mea message.
So I do make a point ofchecking and I always respond
(50:28):
because it is thoughtful and,carolina, you know, crossing
someone else's life that shewouldn't have normally and
someone told me about it, Ithink is really cool.
Lisa Danylchuk (50:39):
Have you had the experience of like getting a
picture that you hadn't seenbefore it still happens.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (50:45):
Her page has tons and people will send me
but they still pop up.
You know, like suddenly yourphone wants to show you a
picture and it doesn't even lineup to the day, but someone will
send it or I'll see it andforgot that I ever had it and I
really enjoy that.
Lisa Danylchuk (50:58):
Yeah, that's awesome, yeah, well, cheers to
your daughter, carolina MadridDieb.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (51:05):
Thank you .
Lisa Danylchuk (51:06):
Yeah, and her magical life, Thank you.
And thank you for sharing someof the up, the down, the around,
the swirl of it.
I know you're not alone.
I know no one's alone in this,even though it is our own path
to figure out and walk.
Hopefully that connection and Iknow you shared after the
(51:26):
funeral to that love that showsup is enough to keep us open
enough to move forward and keepshowing up for the other magical
lives that we're up to.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (51:35):
Yeah.
No, thank you.
I mean thank you from thebeginning.
I wish this wasn't the reasonwe reconnected as much as we
have, but you've guided me somuch and really buoyed me so
many times.
Lisa Danylchuk (51:48):
Oh, I'm happy to continue to.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (51:50):
Yes please.
Lisa Danylchuk (51:51):
You got my number.
I do, and I'm awake at 3amthese days, so anytime, any day,
you got it.
Thank you, Anna.
Anna Ratnathicam Diab (52:00):
Thank you so much, Lisa.
This was, this was amazing.
Lisa Danylchuk (52:03):
Oh good, oh Anna .
Thank you so much, lisa.
This was amazing.
Oh good, oh God.
Thanks so much for listening.
Don't forget to go tohowwecanhealcom to sign up for
email updates.
You'll also find additionaltrainings, tons of helpful
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If you love the show, pleaseleave us a review on Apple,
(52:25):
spotify, audible or wherever youget your podcasts.
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Visit howwecanhealcom forwardslash podcast to share your
thoughts and ideas for the show.
I love hearing from you.
Before we wrap up for today, Iwant to be clear that this
(52:47):
podcast isn't offeringprescriptions.
It's not advice, nor is it anykind of mental health treatment
or diagnosis.
Your decisions are in yourhands and I encourage you to
consult with any healthcareprofessionals you may need to
support you through your uniquepath of healing.
In addition, everyone's opinionhere is their own.
Guests share their thoughts,not that of the host or sponsors
(53:10):
.
I'd like to thank our gueststoday, everyone who helped
support this podcast directlyand indirectly.
Alex, shout out to you fortaking care of the babe and the
fur babies while I record.
Last but never least, I'd liketo give a shout out to my big
brother, matt, who passed awayin 2002.
He wrote this music and itmakes my heart so happy to share
it with you.
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