May 26, 2025 • 56 mins
What if the transformation into parenthood isn't just about survival, but offers a unique window of opportunity for profound growth? In this illuminating conversation, classical singer and Alexander Technique practitioner Madison Smith challenges the harmful notion that we should "bounce back" after childbirth, offering instead a revolutionary perspective on the neurological shifts that occur during this major life transition.
"Your body's not coming back, and I don't say that negatively," Madison explains. "Your body has moved beyond what was available prior." Drawing from her extensive background in voice, movement, and somatics, Madison explores how our brains physically change during parenthood — creating not deficits, but heightened neuroplasticity and learning capacity. This shift rewires us to respond intuitively to our children while simultaneously opening doors to accelerated growth in other areas of our lives.
The discussion delves into the problematic landscape of postpartum fitness, where anatomically incorrect cues like "belly button to spine" prioritize aesthetics over function, sometimes causing lasting injury. Madison shares her own journey of postpartum back pain and how proper understanding of core engagement through expansion rather than contraction ultimately led to healing. She offers practical guidance on breathing techniques that support true core stability while regulating the nervous system, demonstrating how rest and respiratory awareness can be powerful yet underrated tools for recovery.
Perhaps most compelling is Madison's reframing of major life transitions not as setbacks but as opportunities for transformation. Whether you're navigating parenthood, menopause, illness, or any significant change, this conversation invites you to release your grip on who you were and explore the expanded possibilities of who you're becoming. Connect with your body as a source of wisdom, release the pressure to "do it all," and discover what's true for you now — not what was true before or what others expect of you.
If you're in the San Francisco area, look for Madison's in-person workshops for mothers and teens. Find her online at madisoprano.com or on social media @madisoprano.
Season 5 of the How We Can Heal Podcast is sponsored by SimplePractice.
If you want to simplify the business side of your work, I highly recommend Simple Practice!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lisa Danylchuk (00:08):
Welcome back to the how we Can Heal podcast.
Today's guest is someone whobrings a truly refreshing and
deeply validating perspective onhealing and parenthood.
Madison Smith is a classicalsinger and Alexander Technique
practitioner who supports peopleas a voice and body integration
coach.
With over 20 years ofexperience as a professional
(00:30):
singer and a background in dance, yoga, physical therapy and
functional movement, her workhelps us reconnect with our
bodies as a source of truth,freedom and power.
Madison has won numerous awards, has worked with top artists,
grammy award-winning conductorsand in renowned venues across
(00:51):
the globe.
She holds a master's degree invoice from the San Francisco
Conservatory of Music and abachelor's degree in voice from
the Boston Conservatory.
Today, she helps us understandthe powerful neurological shifts
of parenthood as pathways togrowth, learning and resilience.
In our conversation, we diginto the important nuances of
(01:13):
postpartum recovery, how commonefforts to impact how we look
can be harmful for how wefunction and how we can focus on
moving forward instead ofclinging to the familiarities of
the past.
Madison and I connected yearsago through our mutual friend,
molly, and she enrolled in myYoga for Trauma online training
program just a few years ago.
(01:34):
It's been wonderful to see ourprofessional worlds grow closer
and I'm excited for you to getto hear from her here today.
If you've ever felt like youhad to bounce back fast or
wondered if your brain wouldever feel the same again, this
episode is here to offer yousomething gentle, wise and
hopeful.
Please join me in welcomingMadison Smith to the show.
(01:58):
Welcome Madison Smith to thehow we Can Heal podcast.
Madison Smith (02:07):
I'm so happy to have you here today.
Lisa Danylchuk (02:09):
I'm so excited to be here today we're going to
talk a lot about parenting andhealth and well-being and all
the things that relate to that.
So my first question for you,Madison, is how did your
interest in supporting parentsdevelop?
Madison Smith (02:27):
Oh, I'm a parent first and foremost.
Lisa Danylchuk (02:30):
So you become a parent and you go oh, like that,
okay, we need some help here.
Madison Smith (02:38):
Oh, it's not what I thought it would be.
I am also a classical singer bytraining, so a lot of my focus
during pregnancy and postpartumwas around my instrument, my
voice, which is ultimately mybody.
In addition to that, I've alsobeen studying the Alexander
technique for about 14, 15 yearsnow, so a lot of my experience
of myself and my body is finelytuned through that perspective.
(03:02):
And so what I found on my ownjourney into motherhood
parenthood a lot of themisinformation around how our
bodies are supposed to work, alack of support around the areas
where we really need support,and kind of just picking up the
pieces along the way andrealizing, oh snap, there is a
(03:23):
lot more we could be talkingabout, there's a lot better ways
we could be supporting parentscollectively, but especially
women, on this transition pointinto parenthood.
Lisa Danylchuk (03:33):
I'm going to shout out to my best friend that
I grew up with I call herweenie.
Shout out to she says ohsnapple, oh snapple.
I'm curious about supports thatyou saw that were missing.
What were some of the gaps andwide holes in support that
became apparent to you?
Madison Smith (03:51):
Well, I think for one, like any woman who's gone
through pregnancy or personwho's gone through pregnancy if
you know that the list of thingsthat could happen to you they
never give that to you, first ofall because it's too long.
It's entirely too long.
It's why anytime a female bodygoes to the doctor and
something's wrong, they say like, let's have you take a
pregnancy test.
So there's so much that canhappen.
(04:15):
So much bio-individuality ofthat experience.
From the beginning, I think forme personally, I struggled a
lot with postpartum anxiety anddepression.
I think there's two sides tothis.
I think there's a stigma aroundwhat postpartum anxiety and
depression is.
It's put on this pedestal.
Baby blues are okay, butpostpartum depression is not
okay.
But what is that line and I knowyour experience as a therapist
(04:38):
like if you're dealing withtrauma like what is the line
Ultimately?
It's about a person's ownexperience with trauma.
Like what is the lineUltimately, it's about a
person's own experience.
I think there's a lack ofclarity around what is normal
and what is not normal,especially at this transition
point in parenthood.
And so what I've learned andwhat I've uncovered there like
understanding the brain, thephysical, structural brain
changes that happen, and itgives you such a better
(05:00):
framework for understanding, orsetting a baseline for yourself
of like is this normal, is thissomething I can manage or is
this something I need help with?
Yes, if we set the bar at, itshould be normal that you
experience anxiety anddepression and the transition
into motherhood or parenthoodcollectively because of what's
happening in your brain.
It takes that stigma away.
Right, it is the rule, not theexception.
(05:22):
Right, most people areexperiencing this and here's
what's available to you.
Lisa Danylchuk (05:28):
There's so much in what you've said already in
terms of what's common, what'stypical, what are a lot of
people dealing with but justmaybe not talking about.
Or even if they want to talkabout it, maybe they're just
doing so much at the time it'snot like they have the bandwidth
.
So let me call my friend or letme go on a podcast right now in
the middle of the night whileI'm up with my baby.
And then you also mentionedthat list of possible things,
(05:49):
because I had the same thought.
Probably soon after I gavebirth to Isabella.
I thought well, why didn't mymidwife tell me that I might not
be able to pee while I was inlabor, which happened to me for
12 hours, not comfortable, right.
And when it happened to me, mymidwife was like oh, that
happened to me too.
So I had this thought whydidn't you tell me that?
(06:10):
And then I thought about itafter, like oh, because if my
midwife showed up with a list ofall the things that might
happen during labor, it wouldfreak me the F out.
And the point of therelationship with her and all
this is more about that and thepoint of the relationship with
(06:40):
her and all this is more aboutthat.
You know we can speak inpolyvagal terms here, that
ventral, vagal to the process,but there's some like middle
ground here where you do want toknow what's common, what's
typical, what's normal in quotesor parentheses or whatever.
Like what is normal anymore?
Who knows, nothing is normalanymore, but what you and I are
(07:01):
so similar in this way of like.
Let's come back to physiology.
Let's come back to what we knowabout in general, our
collective body experience.
What happens to our bodies whenwe're exposed to trauma.
What happens to our brains?
What happens to our bodies andbrains in this transition into
parenthood?
So it sounds like you had yourpersonal experience and you're
(07:23):
coming back to that.
What's happening in my body andbrain.
That helps maybe support myunderstanding of everything
that's going on.
Madison Smith (07:31):
Yeah, and you started to highlight this.
But there's the flip side of it, and this speaks directly to my
experience as a singer, becausethe number one thing any singer
asks as soon as they find outthey're pregnant or they're
thinking about getting pregnantwhat's going to happen to my
voice?
How quickly can I go back tosinging and I think this would
be true in any work scenariowith any career how soon can I
go back to work?
(07:51):
How long should I take off?
We really do depend upon eachother for these stories about
what's happening in our bodies,but there's a huge caveat here.
Knowing that bio-individuality,I cannot expect my experience
to be the same as yours.
And if that's the frame ofreference I have chosen for
myself and that's not how itgoes for me, what happens?
(08:13):
I get upset, I feel let down bymyself, by my body, by that
experience, and that's theemotional contingent part for me
of like.
How do we talk about this insuch a way where we can share
our stories, share ourexperiences, but with the very
clear caveat of this isn't aboutyou attaching yourself to this
(08:34):
outcome.
This is a possible outcome, sothat you have this on your
periphery and all of this otherstuff is still potentially
available for better or forworse?
Lisa Danylchuk (08:46):
And I think, in some of the worlds I've been in,
I think about like a yoga,wellness, focused world which
can have a strong emphasistowards quote unquote natural
right, doing things in anon-invasive way.
And then I've known people whoneed interventions and feel
shame around that, or even needto take a medication and feel
shame around that, or even needto take a medication and feel
shame around that.
(09:07):
So I think there's somethingreally important that you're
highlighting in terms oftrusting our own experience and
our own bodies.
At the same time, being able tolisten and take in other
people's information withoutattaching to it Breadcrumbs
they're breadcrumbs.
Yeah, we're thinking, oh,that's the way it's going to go
(09:27):
for me.
And, of course, when there's aland of mystery, which there is
a lot around labor and delivery,like we see certain images in
movies and most people I meanfor me, once I got pregnant
people are like, oh, that's notreally how it goes, right,
that's just what you see.
And there's all these otheroptions and all these other ways
.
So you do.
It does broaden a bit, but towhat degree?
(09:48):
And, like you said, how do westay open to just trusting our
own intuition throughout theprocess and trusting our bodies,
rather than having thatexperience of oh it didn't go
that way, so what's wrong?
And then that can set us up fora whole shame spiral, because
then it's something bad about meinstead of just what was best
(10:11):
or what is best or what'shappening.
Madison Smith (10:13):
Yeah we're talking about.
It's bringing up a lot of myown experience dealing with the
medical profession at large,western medical profession at
large.
When something is wrong withyou, it is very hard to get
someone to take you seriously,especially in a female body.
So we've really beenconditioned for many years in so
many ways to kind of offloadresponsibility of what is normal
(10:35):
for our bodies, to have someoneelse tell us whether our
experience is true and correct.
And yet there are so manythings we don't know about the
female body still.
It's so many layers and it justit feels especially raw and
especially exposed at thistransition point into motherhood
(10:56):
and I think that's ultimatelywhere I feel that can we just
give a little cushion here?
to other people going throughthis experience.
Can we give a little space, canwe give a little support, a
little grace?
Lisa Danylchuk (11:06):
Yeah, definitely More cushion, more space, more
support.
So there's the informationabout what happens, and then
there's trusting your body andtrusting your experience.
Are there other supports thatyou noticed?
I know you've been,professionally too, supporting
other singers who are goingthrough this transition into
parenthood specifically.
So are there other supportsthat maybe you didn't see before
(11:30):
getting pregnant, becoming amom, that now are just loud and
clear?
Madison Smith (11:36):
Well, this is kind of a double-edged sword.
Postpartum fitness training Ithink it's great, and I talk a
lot about pelvic floor in mypractice because I think it's
one of the number one thingsthat we know the least about our
bodies as women or femaleindividuals or even men, for
that matter.
There's a lot going on downthere that we don't talk about.
The parts are very much thesame thing, so it's not a sex or
(11:59):
gender issue in that respect.
What I see in the health andwellness and the fitness
industry at large is there's alot of energy around supporting
moms and getting them back totheir pre-baby bodies.
After they have a child.
Your body's not coming back, andI don't say that negatively.
Your body has moved beyond whatwas available for prior.
(12:21):
I think there's a lot moreavailable to us now.
After going through such a bigtransition, I wanted to be able
to move my body in a safe way,but I was also seeing that a lot
of the information being sharedin postpartum fitness spaces
was not only anatomicallyincorrect.
It was very much informed bythis drive or this need to
flatten your tummy and make yourwaist small, and even though we
(12:44):
don't talk about that orrealize that's what's happening.
That is the bulk of what coreworkouts are, especially when
they're geared towards women.
Lisa Danylchuk (12:52):
When you say core and I think of some of the
well-informed practitioners I'veworked with they're like your
core is a lot of differentmuscles it's your glutes and
your hips and your back musclesand your abdominal muscles.
But I've been in the fitnessworld too, where I see that lens
that tends to be moreexternally focused in terms of
(13:15):
what something looks like ratherthan what something feels like,
and then, you know, focusing onthat, sometimes to the
detriment of actual function andhealth.
And I think there's a shiftfrom what I see, right, we are
all seeing from different anglesof people starting to become
more aware of the pelvic floor,starting to incorporate some
(13:38):
more of that in some spaces atleast that are a little more
attuned to this, or maybe withpeople who are teaching, who
have been through birth,starting to say, okay, we've got
to activate here and payattention there and notice this
and connect with breath throughexercise.
So there's a therapeutic way.
And then there's I want to saylike a superficial more about
(14:02):
how it looks way, and focusingon the way it looks can actually
be harmful because it'sneglecting what's really
happening.
Madison Smith (14:10):
And I mean the unfortunate thing is like, how
do you tease that apart?
Because our understanding offunction is so driven by
aesthetics and has been for solong.
So even this idea of like bellybutton to spine, which is
something that's very prevalentas a core cue for supporting
your spine or your posture, thatwas created by a physical
(14:33):
therapist in the 80s but it wasnever intended to be used in
this way.
So it's become so pervasive, somany people cue that, but
that's not actually how ourabdominal wall functions if
we're trying to support someonepostpartum.
I injured my back two monthspostpartum and it took me almost
a year to heal it.
(14:54):
And, looking back, I think alarge part of that was because
the information I was gettingwas misinformed about core
support function and pelvicfloor function, even though this
is coming from a veryspecialized postpartum fitness
space.
It was the right intentions,full stop.
But if so much of ourunderstanding of how the body is
(15:15):
supposed to function ismisinformed, we're not going to
get the results we want.
We're going to be going.
What's wrong?
What's wrong with me?
Why can't I do that?
Lisa Danylchuk (15:23):
So what did you learn that helped you access
healing for your back?
Madison Smith (15:30):
A lot of it's time.
Right, I had a natural delivery.
Natural, I had low interventiondelivery, but I had a vaginal
birth.
That's what I meant to say.
I mean, they say nine months in, nine months out, but it could
take years for you to feel likeyourself again.
So I think the the moniker ofunderstanding healing is a
nonlinear thing.
First of all, it's not that youjust magically go back to what
(15:52):
you were and things heal.
I think there's also anemotional element to healing in
that, and I'm sure you can geton board with this.
Every time I felt like I healedthe thing that was bothering me
, Something else cropped up andI think it was less about that.
Those things were wrong.
But oh, I'm in a space now whereI can pay attention to these
things that have needed mytending for so long and I
(16:13):
haven't been available to it.
So I mean, there's a verypractical element of what did I
learn that helped me fix my back, and it was understanding how
the transversus abdominisfunctions.
It actually expands outwards,right, it doesn't contract
inwards, so when you breathe in,it expands outwards and that
(16:33):
allows for that dissension ofthe diaphragm for the pelvic
floor to move all of thesethings.
So if all of our, all of theinformation we're getting about
core is to keep things tight orbelly button to spine, that's
not allowing our TVA muscle tomove the way it needs to move.
Lisa Danylchuk (16:46):
It can lead to being hypertonic, which is also
an issue.
Madison Smith (16:49):
Yeah, hyper and hypo.
It means that we're notbreathing fully into our lungs.
It means our diaphragm is notmoving, which means our core
system is not functioningproperly.
And if we're not able to fullyinflate our lungs, that means
we're breathing pretty high andpretty tight.
What does that do to ournervous system?
That feeds this loop that we'rein a state of panic?
(17:10):
Right, that's lighting up ournervous system.
If everything's tight here, ifwe're not breathing fully, we're
kind of living in this constantstate of fight or flight and in
the cues of lack of safety,yeah.
Yeah, so it's layers upon layers.
Lisa Danylchuk (17:26):
Yeah, I've also been thinking a lot lately about
bracing and seeing it in,clients noticing it when we
think something's going tohappen, or when we're just
collecting in stories and notreleasing somatically.
It's like this tension thatbuilds up, or bracing against
something.
It just makes me think of thatfrom an aesthetic standpoint or
(17:46):
even just from a functionalstandpoint oh, I'm trying to
support my spine.
We could end up in this way,bracing ourselves.
So we're not allowing fluidmovement, and the fluid movement
could be right.
There's always individualityhere, but the fluid movement
could be what allows us toactivate and soften in a more
balanced way and exploredifferent range of motion.
There's another element here ofjust pain science in terms of
(18:12):
when we learn something hurtsand we brace around it and we
light up that cue oh, pain,danger.
Or then someone says, don't dothat, it's going to hurt you.
Then you do it and it hurts,because that's what I'm primed
for, right?
So there's.
It's so interesting here,though, because I was talking to
Tara Tanini, who came on theshow to talk about acupuncture
(18:33):
and women's health, and she saidthat people one of her thoughts
about acupuncture and whypeople tend to avoid it is
because when you're young.
You go to the doctor and theysay this isn't going to hurt at
all, and then they prick you andit hurts.
So it's like when someone says,oh, acupuncture needles don't
hurt.
I heard that before.
So there's something in hereabout how do we tell truth about
(18:54):
pain without exacerbating it.
How do we find fluidity ofmovement even when we are
feeling pain?
My experience postpartum isdefinitely nonlinear in terms of
.
You know, I had back pain, Ihad hip instability.
There are some days where Istill wake up and I'm like, oh,
that's worse today.
Okay, it was a lot better lastweek, right, and sometimes I
(19:15):
know what happened.
Oh, I did 10 mile run yesterdayand it was slippery and mud so
I had to do more stability, andthis is new.
And some days I it's not clear.
It's just a ride that we're onand we have to kind of listen
and be responsive and choose thenext tool.
Madison Smith (19:31):
Well, it's interesting you're saying this,
because my question to you, likein a practitioner sense, is
like what are you looking for?
And I don't want to put wordsin your mouth, but I think a lot
of times people are.
I want to, I want it to feellike it used to feel.
Mm, hmm, yeah, I want to beable to trust my body the way I
(19:51):
used to be able to trust my body.
Lisa Danylchuk (19:56):
I mean when you say what are you looking for?
Well, in what sense?
Right, because I think that'sgoing to be a question to each
person and each provider.
If someone were asking for myhelp, I would want to know what
they were looking for forthemselves, what they were
looking for from me, right.
But if someone has been throughbirth and is maybe in pain and
(20:19):
looking for physiologicalsupport, let's just say we're
talking about core stability,which obviously right.
If you grow a baby in your body, it shifts things around a
little bit in there, right A lot.
And if you give vaginal birthor have a C-section, that's a
big, over the course of anamount of hours or so, big
change in either your skin andyour organs and your fascia, or
(20:42):
also perhaps your sacrum andyour hips and everything that's
involved.
So I think a lot of timespeople are looking for to feel
better and and the reference forbetter is before.
It's interesting for me becauseI felt great while I was
pregnant.
So the reference for me isn'tnecessarily before.
(21:03):
It's like yeah, hey, what aboutwhen I was pregnant?
That felt awesome.
So you know, the solution islike two months postpartum to
get pregnant again if you'reback, but I was tempted.
Madison Smith (21:15):
Let me tell you that's an interesting
conversation we should haveoffline.
It is our frame of referenceand this starts to tie into the
brain stuff.
Ultimately, a lot of this comesfrom the Mother Brain book by
Chelsea Conaboy, who is amedical journalist.
She went out there and she likedug up all of the studies there
are for women going intoparenthood.
(21:36):
But I think the interestingthing that I want to highlight
is and we know this in otherareas too your brain physically
changes on the journey intoparenthood.
I say parenthood collectively,because any person who is in a
full-time caring positionexperiences the same kind of
physiological brain changes.
(21:57):
Now we don't have enough studyto say precisely what changes
they are.
In some studies it is less graymatter, in some it's more it's
white matter.
Everyone's looking at differentthings, but I think there's
enough data to suggest thatthere are physiological brain
changes, even if we're not surewhy precisely.
(22:17):
We see it and this is somethingwe also see if we're dealing
with illness or disease.
We saw it with COVID patients.
We also see this in peri andmenopause brain changes.
So these times of like bigphysiological transition, our
brains are impacted and for me,the takeaway is even if nothing
else changed in your body evenif you hadn't given birth, if
(22:41):
you had experienced these brainchanges.
Your sense of self, yourproprioception and your
interoception have shifted.
And this is a beautiful tie-into my work with the alexander
technique, because I rememberone of the first sessions I ever
had, the.
The instructor had me shift myhead slightly, and I mean like a
millimeter, but it felt like mywhole head moved off my body
(23:04):
right and it it really playswith this sense of, as I said,
interoception and proprioception, our understanding of ourselves
in space and, particularly inparenthood and motherhood, our
sense of self, emotionally too,because now all of these things
that we knew to be true nolonger feel true.
And when we take that pressureoff, it's not me, it's not that
(23:28):
I've changed, like my brain haschanged.
Literally my whole worldviewhas shifted through this journey
.
So, instead of spending all mytime trying to go back to who I
was, what's available to me now,and for me as a coach, as a
practitioner, like that's wherethe good shit is.
Lisa Danylchuk (23:45):
I love that you're talking about Alexander
technique.
I was just in a training theother day about the Alexander
technique and deep brainreorienting, which we talked
about last season with Dr RuthLanius in terms of treatment of
trauma and dissociation.
In deep brain reorienting, whichwe talked about last season
with Dr Ruth Lanius, in terms oftreatment of trauma and
dissociation, in deep brainreorienting, we focus a lot on
movements of the head or theinitial moment of shock in
trauma and how we respond and alot of times there's maybe a
(24:07):
pull back with the head.
If there's something suddenthat happens, we'll pull back or
we'll turn our head away, orthere's just these ways that we
can unpack.
If there's an initial moment,split second reaction, we can
start to unpack some of that andeven these small turns of the
head and then slowing thingsdown and exploring what happens
in our interoception, feelinginto what we're noticing in our
(24:30):
bodies and just I think mostpeople listening know the
difference but likeinteroception, feeling into
somatically what's happeninginternally in your body,
proprioception, feeling yourbody in space, right, but in
deep brain reorienting we'rereally curious about those head
movements and I think it fitsright in with Alexander
technique.
So it's so interesting that youfound that and that you found
that little tiny shift to be sopowerful.
Madison Smith (24:53):
Yeah, and that was like the first time I'd ever
done Alexander technique as ayoung 19 year old singer.
Lisa Danylchuk (24:59):
Way back Nice.
Madison Smith (25:00):
And I have since done many, many years of studies
.
But it is it.
It is disorienting.
And then it also ties into thedopamine, the predictability
system of our brains, right.
A lot of times we think ofdopamine as the rewards like
it's good stuff, it feels goodstuff, but you also get rewards
for things that don't feel goodnecessarily.
But it's because our brains canpredict the outcome correctly.
Lisa Danylchuk (25:23):
Or even seeking right I think of dopamine like
seeking something too, like oh,I'm going to have this for
dinner.
Yes, I had that for dinner.
Madison Smith (25:30):
I know exactly what this is going to taste like
Right, yeah, the predictability.
I know exactly what this isgoing to taste like Right, yeah,
the predictability.
Yeah, looking for that Exactly.
And so movements are the samething and our understanding of
our bodies is the same thing.
The predictability of it is asafety mechanism for us.
Lisa Danylchuk (25:46):
It makes sense.
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impact trauma has on our brainsand bodies.
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(26:06):
practices for incorporatingsomatic skills into your healing
work.
Students often come into theprogram knowing that yoga can be
helpful for stress management,but unsure about how to apply
the practice to specific aspectsof trauma recovery.
This program breaks it all downand leaves you feeling clear
(26:26):
about your choices as yousupport folks navigating
post-traumatic stress, whetheryou're managing a program,
working one-on-one with clientsor leading therapeutic groups.
Of course, the experience isdesigned to be good for you too.
With eight modules and eightyoga classes, you'll get a taste
of how it feels to practiceyoga in a resource-building,
(26:47):
trauma-responsive manner.
Head on over to howwecanhealcomforward slash Y4T.
That's the letter Y, the numberfour and the letter T to apply
to join the program today.
Mention the podcast in yourapplication for a special bonus.
One more time, nice and slow.
The website is howwecanhealcomforward slash Y4T.
(27:09):
Our next cohort kicks off June9th.
If you're feeling called tojoin us.
I would love to welcome youinto the next cohort and support
you through the program.
So, going to a yoga classpostpartum it's interesting
because I talked to some peoplefollowed along journeys, people
(27:32):
who are pregnant and deliveredclose to me or people who have
much older kids.
I talked to some of my friendsand their kids are like eight
and they're like I haven't evenbeen back to yoga.
And then I talked to friendswho are yoga teachers, like me,
and they got back on their matin this very slow, progressed
way and just noticing how yourbody needs care right, your body
needs different things atdifferent times and tracking
(27:55):
with it and being responsive toit tends to be really helpful.
It's kind of impossible not tonotice.
Oh, I used to be able to dothis and now I can't right.
Interestingly though, this is atotal aside I could go into
handstand and balance for dayspostpartum, which I've never
been able to do.
I've always been super bendyand I thought I'm postpartum I'm
(28:17):
going to be even more bendy,but something about the way my
weight was proportioned orsomething I don't know.
I could balance in a handstandfor days in the first few yoga
classes.
I went back within the firstyear postpartum and then
eventually that's gone.
Now I'm all wobbly all over theplace again.
I thought my core was allblasted away and I would never
(28:37):
like.
I've always thought this isinteresting, maybe for somebody.
I've always thought to myselfthe story I told was the reason
I can't balance in handstand inthe middle of the room for
minutes, like I've seen manypeople do, is because I have a
long torso and there's a lot ofcore stability that was like
missing, like my core is notstrong enough to hold me in
(28:57):
handstand in the middle of theroom.
Then I have this experience Ihad a vaginal delivery of my
core being stretched to 10months pregnant and, within a
few months after that, beingable to nail a handstand and
hold it in the middle of theroom.
No problem.
I was like what, this is cool.
(29:19):
This feels so different.
It's so interesting that thestory that I was telling wasn't
accurate.
Right, because, if anything, Iwas in a time of, and still am
in a time of rebalancing andintegrating my core muscles in
physical therapy, pelvic floortherapy, like I was doing all
the things to try to take careof myself but then just
magically could do a hand stand,not that, like doing a
(29:41):
handstand, has this crazyinherent value, but it was so
interesting as something I hadworked towards and then just
showed up in this time where Ithought it would be the opposite
.
Madison Smith (29:51):
I mean thinking about the core specifically.
So much of our core getsstretched out.
But if our understanding ofcore both prior to and following
pregnancy is tightening it upagain for me understanding now
how those muscles coordinate andhow they actually functionally
support you, I'd be like, well,yeah, perhaps that expansion,
that stretching of those deepcore muscles is what allowed
(30:14):
that functioning to bettersupport you in a handstand.
Lisa Danylchuk (30:17):
And another thing I've learned physical
therapy wise is like you've beensaying about the TVA, like
actually pushing out can be morestabilizing.
I've been in CrossFit beforeand stuff too right, where
people talk about that as likealmost a little bit of bearing
down to stabilize, which is theopposite of sucking in and up.
You're laughing, peoplelistening can't see your face,
but I saw.
Madison Smith (30:36):
That's why Well, okay, so my expertise and my
experience is from singing andit is a very finely tuned system
.
So when we're talking aboutbreath and breath pressure,
intra-abdominal pressure is whatwe're talking about.
If there is too much pressure,that's going to affect your
singing.
For me anytime, I'm thinkingabout bearing down or pushing
out.
Those are cues you can use, butit might be activating the
(30:59):
system more than is necessary.
So I'm very particular aboutwhat cues I use in that respect.
Tell me what cues you like.
One of the basis for me isrelease versus relax.
It comes to muscle tone,releasing a muscle.
If you're holding somethingwith your hand and you release,
you don't have to relax ittotally Right, start over again.
(31:19):
You can release as a renewing,a releasing of that activation.
So there's a sense of lengthand activation in the word
release versus relax, which is atotal letting go of whatever
muscle it is, which is a totalletting go of whatever muscle it
is.
So I'm very particular aboutusing release versus relax,
especially when I'm cueingspecific movement pattern things
(31:40):
.
Lisa Danylchuk (31:40):
I appreciate this in a lot of ways.
Madison Smith (31:43):
Yeah, I'm specifically thinking about
breathing.
I actually like to cue breathinto the back of the pelvis
structure.
So a lot of times we think ofthe pelvis as a single bony
structure, but it's actually twohalves and anyone who's gone
through pregnancy likely hadpain through the back of the
pelvis or even through thecenter of the pelvis lightning
(32:04):
crotch as it's affectionatelyknown, or SI joint pain right
had both of those Mm-hmm.
So if we imagine that we'rebreathing into widening the
pelvis right, it can move everso slightly because it's held
together by these ligaments, bythese muscles.
I'm just imagining I'mbreathing and widening into that
space.
That is now your TVAfunctioning properly.
(32:27):
That is intra-abdominal support.
That's it.
That's all you have to do.
You don't have to push out.
If you push out, try, imagineyou're pushing out.
Yeah, what do you notice?
Lisa Danylchuk (32:37):
If I'm trying to push out to the sides, yeah.
I actually I just feel more,like more in feeling.
Madison Smith (32:44):
Yeah, my superficial Donald's, the rectus
of Donald's kick on, theytighten or pushing in because,
all this energy is goingoutwards.
So even though I'm expandingoutwards with the TV, if I'm
thinking I'm pushing out, I'mactually activating different
muscle groups Right.
So this is why I'm like there'slayers to this.
When it comes to postpartumfitness or fitness in general, a
(33:07):
lot of times we're cuing thingscoming from the right
perspective but it's actuallykicking on muscles.
We don't want to cue that way.
The specificity of that isreally important and it's
something we don't get enoughtraining in collectively,
especially for postpartum bodies.
So much is so much softness,especially for postpartum bodies
, so much softness andunderstanding nervous system
(33:29):
activation in that.
Can we approach our return tophysical movement in a place of
softness and gentleness asopposed to activating these
muscles to the super extreme?
Lisa Danylchuk (33:43):
Right.
Yeah, like you said earlier,creating space for parents and
people, postpartum creatingspace, because I think that
space creates a sense ofsoftness or gentleness in our
approach to our bodies.
There can be this I mean, I seeit as very American, but people
might see it through othercultural lenses too Like get
(34:03):
back at it, get back to work,get back together, get back to
right.
Like get back instead of moveforward and instead of take this
very sacred pause which I veryintentionally tried to do of
making space and making spacefor your body, cause there is
some element of healing that istime.
That is magic right, like, oh,it's better tomorrow than it was
(34:24):
yesterday.
And there is an element ofhealing that is attention and
intention and care from otherpeople, and there is some
element of healing that's, likewe've said, very nonlinear.
So, with all of that, I think,when we can give it space and
call in supports and try torefine our skillfulness, our
(34:46):
understanding of ourselves, ourbodies, of what they need now
rather than what would bringthem back then, right, what they
needed then was different.
What our bodies needed a yearago is different from what our
bodies need now.
So let's just focus on what ourbodies need now for health, for
function, for pain-freemovement, for enjoyable movement
(35:09):
.
Right Do the duties that weneed in everyday life, like the
amount of times I squat down topick up my 27-pound daughter
right, or her toys or whateverelse.
My daily movement habits havealso changed, so why would I
have the same needs as I did ayear, two years ago?
Madison Smith (35:30):
It's kind of like a reconnection with presence.
Yeah, all facets.
Lisa Danylchuk (35:37):
So much a basis of trauma-informed work, and I
know you've done studies intrauma-informed care.
You've done some with me.
What does it mean for you to betrauma-informed in your work?
A lot, it means very much theend.
Madison Smith (35:53):
I think there's so many different ways that I
use the principles of beingtrauma-informed in my work.
I mean number one is meetingpeople where they are and not
having an idea or an expectationof what I want from them.
And something that alwaysrattles around in my brain from
(36:14):
I did Lisa's yoga for traumayoga Lisa's yoga for trauma.
Lisa Danylchuk (36:17):
I got that name on a retreat that Madison came
on in Bali.
Was that 2017 maybe?
I think the person holding thecard for our pickup said Yoga
Lisa.
I became Yoga Lisa and it haslasted.
Madison Smith (36:29):
I love it, this idea of balance?
Right, we're not trying to andthis is something that ties into
resilience too right, we're nottrying to avoid the feelings
that we experienced in trauma,or the negative feelings, or
this is a great tie into pain.
We're not trying to avoid thesensation of pain, but how do we
move through it?
Lisa Danylchuk (36:49):
Yeah.
How do we relate to it?
Even yeah.
Madison Smith (36:51):
And breath.
For me, like ultimately all ofmy work, foundationally, is how
can we breathe through it?
Because if our our respiratorymuscles are working properly,
that means our postural musclesare working properly.
That means we can connect withour nervous system properly and
cool it down when we need to.
It means we're getting ourlymph and our blood and all of
the liquids in our body to wherethey need to be for healing.
(37:13):
There's so many layers to thiswork, so there's emotional,
psychological trauma, but thenthere's physiological trauma and
how we heal from pain, and thatsoftness is key in all of those
places.
Lisa Danylchuk (37:26):
Yeah, it really is.
And the listening.
I think that's a really bigpiece that you highlighted.
It can be tempting to find atechnique and just apply it.
This is the 10-step process.
I mean, if I had a dollar forevery time.
Someone said what's thesequence for trauma recovery and
I'm like it doesn't quite workthat way.
I can give you three samplesequences and you can pick which
(37:48):
one is the most helpful as astarting point, but it's just
not.
It's just that it's not solinear or so what's the word.
I want to say myopic, but Ifeel like that's judgmental.
It's not so universal.
We need responsiveness in ourcare.
(38:10):
That's such a good word.
So in the work that you'redoing with parents now, how has
that trauma-informed perspectivethat you got from the Y4T
training?
Madison Smith (38:24):
that you got from the Y4T training.
Has it changed anything for you?
Yes, it's a short answer.
I've moved through differentwaves and cycles.
With that I mean, as a singer,understanding how trauma impacts
our body physiologically.
We're talking about bracing,right, holding.
(38:45):
All of those things are reallyantithetical to singing, but all
of those things are reallyantithetical to living.
Anytime we're bracing orholding, we're setting ourselves
up for injury, if we don'talready have one Fatigue and
injury.
We're using muscles in a waythat they're not intended to
work.
It's very easy to create thatcycle loop for ourselves.
If we're not able to breathefully, we're likely to be
(39:05):
causing I don't want to saydamage, but amping up the
nervous system as much as we'retrying to cool it down.
I got a client recently who shelike went down the list.
She's like yep, I wantAlexander to be yep, I want
trauma informed.
Like yep, yep, yep.
And every week she shows up andit's like a totally different
new experience of like somethingvery deep that I was like, oh,
(39:26):
that would have been helpful toknow.
But cool, we're just constantlyuncovering it.
But I don't ever, in any moment, say I can't handle that.
And if I did, I'd say you needto talk to so and so.
Right, it's just about thatspace, that grace, to say, hey,
what are you comfortable sharingwith me today?
And how beautiful that is.
It's an act of co-creation.
(39:47):
Someone else's healing is anact of co-creation, and we get
to heal together.
Lisa Danylchuk (39:52):
Yeah, it's beautiful and I think part of
what I hear and what you'resaying is the comfort and the
steadiness that comes with theawareness Like, oh, I've studied
trauma, I understand, I've gotthis basis.
What you're saying makes senseto me.
When we don't have thatbackground, it's easy for us as
providers to start to panic, alittle like, oh, I'm getting out
of my wheelhouse, I don't knowwhat's happening, what's going
(40:14):
to happen, what if I dosomething wrong?
But when you have a sense,instead of going in that
direction, it's like thanks fortelling me, here's some ways we
could approach that today.
Also, thanks for telling me itmight be time to add a referral
in here, right, like knowingyour scope and being able to be
responsive and centered andgrounded and have some clarity
(40:35):
rather than go into anxiety orpanic because it's a whole world
of unknown and I mean to add alayer of empathy to all that.
Madison Smith (40:44):
Right, this isn't my wheelhouse.
Like I'm not a psychotherapist,I'm not going to give you
therapy, but I can.
I can connect with that feelingand that sensation and we can
develop community and connectionaround that in the moment.
Even if I can't support you inthe way you ultimately need, I
can be with you in that moment,and that's lovely.
Lisa Danylchuk (41:06):
Yes, one of the things I've been loving is
something called dream storming.
I don't know if you heard theepisode with Dr Jennifer Gomez
where she talks about this termthat she came up with.
Instead of brainstorming like,okay, we've got a problem, and
thinking about the problem atthe same level that it was
created, going out to the dreamand pulling from there.
So if you could dream, stormwhat it looks like for parents
(41:27):
to have access to care, to havesupports, to have health and
healing in this big change right, it's a big change to go from a
person maybe just taking careof yourself to a parent, or even
to a parent the second or thirdtime, or parent of multiples,
right?
So if you could dream, stormwhat's available to people, what
(41:48):
would you see that?
Madison Smith (41:50):
is such a great question.
Lisa Danylchuk (41:52):
I love it.
It's one of my favorite things.
I'm like let's dream storm.
Hi, nice to meet you.
Let's dream storm.
Madison Smith (41:58):
What immediately comes up, and we haven't really
talked about this yet, but Ithink it sets the opportunity in
play, which is when we're goingthrough the journey into
parenthood.
Our brains are shifting, but itactually gives us access to
heightened myelination andneuroplasticity.
So what does that mean?
That means we can learn newthings more quickly.
(42:18):
It's how we become betterparents.
We're able to learn how torespond to our child's cues.
We get real intimate, real fast.
With this little being right,we learn really quickly how to
keep them alive.
It's amazing, and it's not justfor parenting.
That's your life, that's yourcareer, anything you want.
(42:39):
If you want to go out and learnhow to do handstands, now's the
time to do it.
So reframing this transitioninto parenthood as an
opportunity to level up yourentire life, however you so fit.
A lot of times we think childrenis a detriment to our career,
to our professions, to ourbodies, to our brains.
I mean the implication ofmother brain in itself, this
(43:01):
idea that women are somehowcognitively negatively impacted.
It's an opportunity for us toexplore ourselves and an
entirely new shift in our lives.
And I think the same thing istrue in peri and menopause.
If we could see these placeswhere we feel the most
physically vulnerable, the mostphysically outside of ourselves,
(43:21):
not as setbacks but asopportunities.
Yes, your dream storm, thatwould be my dream storm.
Lisa Danylchuk (43:27):
I love it.
I love it.
I hope people listening canreally take that in and, however
it applies to changes happeningin their life right, and I know
sometimes we can go to that.
You know the character forcrisis is also opportunity and
things can feel trite in thatway.
But to really step into thispossibility for, like, change is
(43:48):
happening, transformation ishappening, so can we make sure
that we're not just seeing theways that that feels hard or
harmful, can we also explore?
It makes me think of that breathyou mentioned, like taking that
breath all the way into theback of your pelvis.
It's like this, like expand inin two directions of okay, this
(44:10):
is hard, okay, this is amazing,like what, what about that?
And also just opening our mindsto possibility, which is a huge
step in and of itself, becausewhen we're in a place where
we're very stressed or we'reneeding to be really focused
taking care of a human right, itcan be easy to kind of have
tunnel vision rather than havejust even a moment of opening or
(44:35):
spaciousness or possibility formenopause and paramenopause too
, which is something I'd love totalk more about here.
Whole season, whole year.
Madison Smith (44:44):
I'll probably do a whole decade in a couple years
.
Lisa Danylchuk (44:47):
The podcast is all about menopause and
paramenopause.
What happened?
How old is Lisa?
Madison Smith (44:52):
Well, I just wanted to share a little
anecdote from my experience too.
After I had my son, I didn'twant to sing.
I had lost that joy for singingand on one hand, it was because
I didn't feel good in my bodyright, my body was injured.
My body didn't feel good, butthe desire to sing wasn't there
and I spent so much time beatingmyself up because I felt like I
(45:16):
should want to do this thingI've always wanted to do, and it
took me years to come back toit.
Years, and that's a lot ofenergy and time.
And I think that's just oneexample of how the transition,
such a big transition, intoparenthood can feel so
ungrounding to us, and the onlything we have to tether us back
(45:37):
to our reality is what we knew.
But instead of beatingourselves up when those things
don't fit, giving ourselves thespace to let go and open up to
what else might be available.
Lisa Danylchuk (45:48):
Right, and that really fills full circle to how
we started this conversationaround.
Instead of reaching back, beingresponsive to what's true now
and that's such a powerfulpractice in trauma therapy and,
I'm imagining, in your coaching,in so many practices Okay, well
(46:09):
, what's actually happening now?
Because we can get really inour heads about what's supposed
to be or what was or what willbe, and this is the path.
It's like, well, what do youhave?
What it looks like for someoneelse?
It this way.
Or the book says seven stepsthis way, and I love a good
structure when it works.
But when we bump up against itand it's not working, well, what
(46:30):
actually do you want and needright now?
And it's so interesting thatsomething you've loved became
something that you weren'tfeeling the joy in.
I imagine that's quite areckoning and a process.
I mean, I've heard you singrecently your voice, by the way,
my goodness, woman, like it isso amazing and beautiful and
(46:52):
angelic.
I know that's probably overusedin your world.
Oh, the voice is angelic.
I'm like, literally angels aresinging right now.
When I hear you sing, it's soamazing.
So, yeah, anyone who has theopportunity to perform, I'm just
going to highly recommend it.
Good for the soul, get some,you know, very inspiring.
As someone who's always lovedto sing but like my highlight is
(47:13):
performing little mermaid atMolly's show, I would love to
just like borrow your body for aday and be able to do that.
Madison Smith (47:22):
You do can have pipes like this If you just
breathe into your pelvis justbreathe into the back of your
pelvis.
Lisa Danylchuk (47:29):
You too can have a little pedantic, but it's
probably more true than that youcan have soprano pipes like
this right, I'm probably more ofan alto, but you know, what
would you say to someone who'slistening?
Maybe they're going through abig change.
Maybe that change is the changeinto parenthood and they're
just looking for some kind ofnext step in healing.
How would you give them alittle bit of support, direction
(47:53):
if they're looking for it?
I know we're just talking aboutintuition, so the direction
might be right back tothemselves.
What would you say to someone?
Madison Smith (48:02):
First and foremost, you don't have to do
it all.
Say to someone, first andforemost, you don't have to do
it all.
Yes, hallelujah, hey, there's alot of energy out there around
doing all of the things Ourbodies can't physically do, all
the things.
I think rest is so entirelyunderrated and breathing is a
form of exercise.
Those two things for me.
(48:22):
So you can rest and you canbreathe, and that is a form of
movement, that is a form ofmuscular activation.
Two things for me.
So you can rest and you canbreathe, and that is a form of
movement, that is a form ofmuscular activation, that is a
way of connecting with your body, that's a way of calming your
nervous system, that is a way ofmoving fluids through your body
.
It is such a powerhouse movethat is so underrated.
So, yeah, if you're goingthrough a place of transition,
(48:43):
reach out to support, but alsodon't be afraid to do less and
rest and touch in with who youare now.
What's true now, what feelsright now?
And start with that day by day.
Lisa Danylchuk (48:54):
I love it.
And when you talk about rest,it feels so important with
parenting, because many peoplelose a lot of sleep for a number
of years, and so if you can'tget a full night's sleep like I
definitely did not get a fullnight's sleep last night I
probably got interrupted sixtimes, which is not typical but
happens right.
There are certain nights where,for whatever reason,
(49:16):
something's going on and you'relike, oh, here I am awake again.
Oh, this time it's not so bad.
Oh, this time I'm really drowsy.
What's going on?
Right, and so rest, for me too,it has become.
I've always been a proponent ofit.
But it's like finding momentsof rest can be so powerful.
And if you're in bed and youcan't fall asleep, can you rest?
Can you breathe?
(49:37):
I just did that the other day.
I'm not someone who usually hasa hard time falling asleep, but
I was in bed and I was a littlebit wired and everyone else was
sleeping.
I was like this is like primetime.
Everybody else is sleeping,come on.
So I just started doing alonger exhale, which you know
from the physiology of breathingand from yoga.
It tends to be more soothing,and I think I got to.
(49:58):
Four breaths is the last thingI remember, which is that's
impressive, right Like.
And then I woke up the next dayand didn't remember till noon
that I took some deep breathsand micro rest right Any little
window of it, and some of thatis the permission to do less.
Some of that is that let's nottry to do it all.
(50:18):
Let's try to find what the mostessential need is and meet it,
get the support that feels best.
We were talking earlier abouthaving different providers and
experts on your team and reallytrusting the intuition of that.
I mean, there have been peopleI've worked with that have been
really helpful for some things.
And then I'm done, right, andthen move on.
(50:39):
Or let that go, release thatand make space for nothing, or
make space for something else.
Madison Smith (50:47):
It's that, taking ownership of your experience,
yeah, I love it For yourself andfor your body.
Lisa Danylchuk (50:53):
What's next for you?
What are you offering?
Are you writing a book?
Are you going to write a book?
Are you going to sing a book?
Madison Smith (50:58):
I'm going to sing a book.
I had thought about writing abook, although it would probably
be something very specific tosingers, I don't know.
I'm actually kind of shiftingmy focus lately and doing a lot
more in-person work here in SanFrancisco and hosting workshops
specifically for mothers.
I've been doing a lot more workaround body love, body image,
body confidence, because allthese things are interrelated,
(51:21):
and I might actually startrolling out a program for teens
as well Beautiful.
I did one recently for a coupleof teenage girls and I think
that's something that could bereally valuable for these tender
babes.
Lisa Danylchuk (51:33):
Yes, how could people get in touch with you if
they want to follow your work orwork with you directly?
Madison Smith (51:39):
Great.
Yeah, my website ismadsopranocom and that's my
tagline for Instagram andFacebook.
I'm not as much on Tiki Tokis,but you know it's there, just in
case.
Yeah, hopefully you can find me, or you can find me via Lisa
Yoga.
Lisa Yoga Lisa has your number.
(52:00):
Yeah, I'm looking forward todoing more in-person workshops
here in the city and trying tobuild more community here.
So, particularly for anyone inthe bay area, definitely would
love to see you and reach outyes, I love it.
Lisa Danylchuk (52:13):
Last question what brings you hope?
Madison Smith (52:17):
oh, god you know, looking in my son's face right,
I know the world is a scaryplace right now in a lot of ways
for many people, but this istemporary and someday our
children are going to be runningthe show and we have the
opportunity to cultivate a newreality.
Lisa Danylchuk (52:38):
Yeah, we can dream storm it.
Thank you so much for beinghere and for sharing yourself
and your work.
I think it just brings up somany different avenues coming
together and more questions.
I'd love to hear from people inthe comments.
If you're listening and youhave a question or a thought you
want to share, post it in thecomments or you can email us at
(53:00):
podcasthowyoucanhealcom.
Thank you, madison.
Thank you, lisa.
Such a pleasure.
Thanks so much for listening.
Now I'd love to hear from youhow has becoming a parent
shifted your experience of life,or what massive life
transitions have you experiencedand how did you feel supported
(53:23):
through them?
Share your answers and what'sbeen healing for you in the
comments below on YouTube orfind me on Instagram at
HowWeCanHeal.
Don't forget to go toHowWeCanHealcom to sign up for
email updates as well.
You'll also find additionaltrainings there, tons of helpful
resources and the fulltranscript of each show.
If you love the show, pleaseleave us a review on Apple,
(53:47):
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and keep sharing the shows youlove most with all your friends.
Visit howwecanhealcom forwardslash podcast to share your
thoughts and ideas for the show.
I always love hearing from you.
Before we wrap up for today, Iwant to be clear that this
(54:09):
podcast isn't offeringprescriptions.
It's not advice, nor is it anykind of mental health treatment
or diagnosis.
Your decisions are in yourhands and I encourage you to
consult with any healthcareprofessionals you may need to
support you through your uniquepath of healing.
In addition, everyone's opinionhere is their own and opinions
(54:31):
can change.
Guests share their thoughts,not that of the host or sponsors
.
I'd like to thank our gueststoday and everyone who helped
support this podcast directlyand indirectly.
Alex, thanks for taking care ofthe babe and the fur babies
while I record.
Last but never least, I'd loveto give a special shout out to
(54:51):
my big brother, matt, who passedaway in 2002.
He wrote this music and itmakes my heart so happy to share
it with you here.
Welcome back to the how we Can Heal podcast.
Today's guest is someone whobrings a truly refreshing and
deeply validating perspective onhealing and parenthood.
Madison Smith is a classicalsinger and Alexander Technique
practitioner who supports peopleas a voice and body integration
coach.
With over 20 years ofexperience as a professional
(00:30):
singer and a background in dance, yoga, physical therapy and
functional movement, her workhelps us reconnect with our
bodies as a source of truth,freedom and power.
Madison has won numerous awards, has worked with top artists,
grammy award-winning conductorsand in renowned venues across
(00:51):
the globe.
She holds a master's degree invoice from the San Francisco
Conservatory of Music and abachelor's degree in voice from
the Boston Conservatory.
Today, she helps us understandthe powerful neurological shifts
of parenthood as pathways togrowth, learning and resilience.
In our conversation, we diginto the important nuances of
(01:13):
postpartum recovery, how commonefforts to impact how we look
can be harmful for how wefunction and how we can focus on
moving forward instead ofclinging to the familiarities of
the past.
Madison and I connected yearsago through our mutual friend,
molly, and she enrolled in myYoga for Trauma online training
program just a few years ago.
(01:34):
It's been wonderful to see ourprofessional worlds grow closer
and I'm excited for you to getto hear from her here today.
If you've ever felt like youhad to bounce back fast or
wondered if your brain wouldever feel the same again, this
episode is here to offer yousomething gentle, wise and
hopeful.
Please join me in welcomingMadison Smith to the show.
(01:58):
Welcome Madison Smith to thehow we Can Heal podcast.
Madison Smith (02:07):
I'm so happy to have you here today.
Lisa Danylchuk (02:09):
I'm so excited to be here today we're going to
talk a lot about parenting andhealth and well-being and all
the things that relate to that.
So my first question for you,Madison, is how did your
interest in supporting parentsdevelop?
Madison Smith (02:27):
Oh, I'm a parent first and foremost.
Lisa Danylchuk (02:30):
So you become a parent and you go oh, like that,
okay, we need some help here.
Madison Smith (02:38):
Oh, it's not what I thought it would be.
I am also a classical singer bytraining, so a lot of my focus
during pregnancy and postpartumwas around my instrument, my
voice, which is ultimately mybody.
In addition to that, I've alsobeen studying the Alexander
technique for about 14, 15 yearsnow, so a lot of my experience
of myself and my body is finelytuned through that perspective.
(03:02):
And so what I found on my ownjourney into motherhood
parenthood a lot of themisinformation around how our
bodies are supposed to work, alack of support around the areas
where we really need support,and kind of just picking up the
pieces along the way andrealizing, oh snap, there is a
(03:23):
lot more we could be talkingabout, there's a lot better ways
we could be supporting parentscollectively, but especially
women, on this transition pointinto parenthood.
Lisa Danylchuk (03:33):
I'm going to shout out to my best friend that
I grew up with I call herweenie.
Shout out to she says ohsnapple, oh snapple.
I'm curious about supports thatyou saw that were missing.
What were some of the gaps andwide holes in support that
became apparent to you?
Madison Smith (03:51):
Well, I think for one, like any woman who's gone
through pregnancy or personwho's gone through pregnancy if
you know that the list of thingsthat could happen to you they
never give that to you, first ofall because it's too long.
It's entirely too long.
It's why anytime a female bodygoes to the doctor and
something's wrong, they say like, let's have you take a
pregnancy test.
So there's so much that canhappen.
(04:15):
So much bio-individuality ofthat experience.
From the beginning, I think forme personally, I struggled a
lot with postpartum anxiety anddepression.
I think there's two sides tothis.
I think there's a stigma aroundwhat postpartum anxiety and
depression is.
It's put on this pedestal.
Baby blues are okay, butpostpartum depression is not
okay.
But what is that line and I knowyour experience as a therapist
(04:38):
like if you're dealing withtrauma like what is the line
Ultimately?
It's about a person's ownexperience with trauma.
Like what is the lineUltimately, it's about a
person's own experience.
I think there's a lack ofclarity around what is normal
and what is not normal,especially at this transition
point in parenthood.
And so what I've learned andwhat I've uncovered there like
understanding the brain, thephysical, structural brain
changes that happen, and itgives you such a better
(05:00):
framework for understanding, orsetting a baseline for yourself
of like is this normal, is thissomething I can manage or is
this something I need help with?
Yes, if we set the bar at, itshould be normal that you
experience anxiety anddepression and the transition
into motherhood or parenthoodcollectively because of what's
happening in your brain.
It takes that stigma away.
Right, it is the rule, not theexception.
(05:22):
Right, most people areexperiencing this and here's
what's available to you.
Lisa Danylchuk (05:28):
There's so much in what you've said already in
terms of what's common, what'stypical, what are a lot of
people dealing with but justmaybe not talking about.
Or even if they want to talkabout it, maybe they're just
doing so much at the time it'snot like they have the bandwidth
.
So let me call my friend or letme go on a podcast right now in
the middle of the night whileI'm up with my baby.
And then you also mentionedthat list of possible things,
(05:49):
because I had the same thought.
Probably soon after I gavebirth to Isabella.
I thought well, why didn't mymidwife tell me that I might not
be able to pee while I was inlabor, which happened to me for
12 hours, not comfortable, right.
And when it happened to me, mymidwife was like oh, that
happened to me too.
So I had this thought whydidn't you tell me that?
(06:10):
And then I thought about itafter, like oh, because if my
midwife showed up with a list ofall the things that might
happen during labor, it wouldfreak me the F out.
And the point of therelationship with her and all
this is more about that and thepoint of the relationship with
(06:40):
her and all this is more aboutthat.
You know we can speak inpolyvagal terms here, that
ventral, vagal to the process,but there's some like middle
ground here where you do want toknow what's common, what's
typical, what's normal in quotesor parentheses or whatever.
Like what is normal anymore?
Who knows, nothing is normalanymore, but what you and I are
(07:01):
so similar in this way of like.
Let's come back to physiology.
Let's come back to what we knowabout in general, our
collective body experience.
What happens to our bodies whenwe're exposed to trauma.
What happens to our brains?
What happens to our bodies andbrains in this transition into
parenthood?
So it sounds like you had yourpersonal experience and you're
(07:23):
coming back to that.
What's happening in my body andbrain.
That helps maybe support myunderstanding of everything
that's going on.
Madison Smith (07:31):
Yeah, and you started to highlight this.
But there's the flip side of it, and this speaks directly to my
experience as a singer, becausethe number one thing any singer
asks as soon as they find outthey're pregnant or they're
thinking about getting pregnantwhat's going to happen to my
voice?
How quickly can I go back tosinging and I think this would
be true in any work scenariowith any career how soon can I
go back to work?
(07:51):
How long should I take off?
We really do depend upon eachother for these stories about
what's happening in our bodies,but there's a huge caveat here.
Knowing that bio-individuality,I cannot expect my experience
to be the same as yours.
And if that's the frame ofreference I have chosen for
myself and that's not how itgoes for me, what happens?
(08:13):
I get upset, I feel let down bymyself, by my body, by that
experience, and that's theemotional contingent part for me
of like.
How do we talk about this insuch a way where we can share
our stories, share ourexperiences, but with the very
clear caveat of this isn't aboutyou attaching yourself to this
(08:34):
outcome.
This is a possible outcome, sothat you have this on your
periphery and all of this otherstuff is still potentially
available for better or forworse?
Lisa Danylchuk (08:46):
And I think, in some of the worlds I've been in,
I think about like a yoga,wellness, focused world which
can have a strong emphasistowards quote unquote natural
right, doing things in anon-invasive way.
And then I've known people whoneed interventions and feel
shame around that, or even needto take a medication and feel
shame around that, or even needto take a medication and feel
shame around that.
(09:07):
So I think there's somethingreally important that you're
highlighting in terms oftrusting our own experience and
our own bodies.
At the same time, being able tolisten and take in other
people's information withoutattaching to it Breadcrumbs
they're breadcrumbs.
Yeah, we're thinking, oh,that's the way it's going to go
(09:27):
for me.
And, of course, when there's aland of mystery, which there is
a lot around labor and delivery,like we see certain images in
movies and most people I meanfor me, once I got pregnant
people are like, oh, that's notreally how it goes, right,
that's just what you see.
And there's all these otheroptions and all these other ways
.
So you do.
It does broaden a bit, but towhat degree?
(09:48):
And, like you said, how do westay open to just trusting our
own intuition throughout theprocess and trusting our bodies,
rather than having thatexperience of oh it didn't go
that way, so what's wrong?
And then that can set us up fora whole shame spiral, because
then it's something bad about meinstead of just what was best
(10:11):
or what is best or what'shappening.
Madison Smith (10:13):
Yeah we're talking about.
It's bringing up a lot of myown experience dealing with the
medical profession at large,western medical profession at
large.
When something is wrong withyou, it is very hard to get
someone to take you seriously,especially in a female body.
So we've really beenconditioned for many years in so
many ways to kind of offloadresponsibility of what is normal
(10:35):
for our bodies, to have someoneelse tell us whether our
experience is true and correct.
And yet there are so manythings we don't know about the
female body still.
It's so many layers and it justit feels especially raw and
especially exposed at thistransition point into motherhood
(10:56):
and I think that's ultimatelywhere I feel that can we just
give a little cushion here?
to other people going throughthis experience.
Can we give a little space, canwe give a little support, a
little grace?
Lisa Danylchuk (11:06):
Yeah, definitely More cushion, more space, more
support.
So there's the informationabout what happens, and then
there's trusting your body andtrusting your experience.
Are there other supports thatyou noticed?
I know you've been,professionally too, supporting
other singers who are goingthrough this transition into
parenthood specifically.
So are there other supportsthat maybe you didn't see before
(11:30):
getting pregnant, becoming amom, that now are just loud and
clear?
Madison Smith (11:36):
Well, this is kind of a double-edged sword.
Postpartum fitness training Ithink it's great, and I talk a
lot about pelvic floor in mypractice because I think it's
one of the number one thingsthat we know the least about our
bodies as women or femaleindividuals or even men, for
that matter.
There's a lot going on downthere that we don't talk about.
The parts are very much thesame thing, so it's not a sex or
(11:59):
gender issue in that respect.
What I see in the health andwellness and the fitness
industry at large is there's alot of energy around supporting
moms and getting them back totheir pre-baby bodies.
After they have a child.
Your body's not coming back, andI don't say that negatively.
Your body has moved beyond whatwas available for prior.
(12:21):
I think there's a lot moreavailable to us now.
After going through such a bigtransition, I wanted to be able
to move my body in a safe way,but I was also seeing that a lot
of the information being sharedin postpartum fitness spaces
was not only anatomicallyincorrect.
It was very much informed bythis drive or this need to
flatten your tummy and make yourwaist small, and even though we
(12:44):
don't talk about that orrealize that's what's happening.
That is the bulk of what coreworkouts are, especially when
they're geared towards women.
Lisa Danylchuk (12:52):
When you say core and I think of some of the
well-informed practitioners I'veworked with they're like your
core is a lot of differentmuscles it's your glutes and
your hips and your back musclesand your abdominal muscles.
But I've been in the fitnessworld too, where I see that lens
that tends to be moreexternally focused in terms of
(13:15):
what something looks like ratherthan what something feels like,
and then, you know, focusing onthat, sometimes to the
detriment of actual function andhealth.
And I think there's a shiftfrom what I see, right, we are
all seeing from different anglesof people starting to become
more aware of the pelvic floor,starting to incorporate some
(13:38):
more of that in some spaces atleast that are a little more
attuned to this, or maybe withpeople who are teaching, who
have been through birth,starting to say, okay, we've got
to activate here and payattention there and notice this
and connect with breath throughexercise.
So there's a therapeutic way.
And then there's I want to saylike a superficial more about
(14:02):
how it looks way, and focusingon the way it looks can actually
be harmful because it'sneglecting what's really
happening.
Madison Smith (14:10):
And I mean the unfortunate thing is like, how
do you tease that apart?
Because our understanding offunction is so driven by
aesthetics and has been for solong.
So even this idea of like bellybutton to spine, which is
something that's very prevalentas a core cue for supporting
your spine or your posture, thatwas created by a physical
(14:33):
therapist in the 80s but it wasnever intended to be used in
this way.
So it's become so pervasive, somany people cue that, but
that's not actually how ourabdominal wall functions if
we're trying to support someonepostpartum.
I injured my back two monthspostpartum and it took me almost
a year to heal it.
(14:54):
And, looking back, I think alarge part of that was because
the information I was gettingwas misinformed about core
support function and pelvicfloor function, even though this
is coming from a veryspecialized postpartum fitness
space.
It was the right intentions,full stop.
But if so much of ourunderstanding of how the body is
(15:15):
supposed to function ismisinformed, we're not going to
get the results we want.
We're going to be going.
What's wrong?
What's wrong with me?
Why can't I do that?
Lisa Danylchuk (15:23):
So what did you learn that helped you access
healing for your back?
Madison Smith (15:30):
A lot of it's time.
Right, I had a natural delivery.
Natural, I had low interventiondelivery, but I had a vaginal
birth.
That's what I meant to say.
I mean, they say nine months in, nine months out, but it could
take years for you to feel likeyourself again.
So I think the the moniker ofunderstanding healing is a
nonlinear thing.
First of all, it's not that youjust magically go back to what
(15:52):
you were and things heal.
I think there's also anemotional element to healing in
that, and I'm sure you can geton board with this.
Every time I felt like I healedthe thing that was bothering me
, Something else cropped up andI think it was less about that.
Those things were wrong.
But oh, I'm in a space now whereI can pay attention to these
things that have needed mytending for so long and I
(16:13):
haven't been available to it.
So I mean, there's a verypractical element of what did I
learn that helped me fix my back, and it was understanding how
the transversus abdominisfunctions.
It actually expands outwards,right, it doesn't contract
inwards, so when you breathe in,it expands outwards and that
(16:33):
allows for that dissension ofthe diaphragm for the pelvic
floor to move all of thesethings.
So if all of our, all of theinformation we're getting about
core is to keep things tight orbelly button to spine, that's
not allowing our TVA muscle tomove the way it needs to move.
Lisa Danylchuk (16:46):
It can lead to being hypertonic, which is also
an issue.
Madison Smith (16:49):
Yeah, hyper and hypo.
It means that we're notbreathing fully into our lungs.
It means our diaphragm is notmoving, which means our core
system is not functioningproperly.
And if we're not able to fullyinflate our lungs, that means
we're breathing pretty high andpretty tight.
What does that do to ournervous system?
That feeds this loop that we'rein a state of panic?
(17:10):
Right, that's lighting up ournervous system.
If everything's tight here, ifwe're not breathing fully, we're
kind of living in this constantstate of fight or flight and in
the cues of lack of safety,yeah.
Yeah, so it's layers upon layers.
Lisa Danylchuk (17:26):
Yeah, I've also been thinking a lot lately about
bracing and seeing it in,clients noticing it when we
think something's going tohappen, or when we're just
collecting in stories and notreleasing somatically.
It's like this tension thatbuilds up, or bracing against
something.
It just makes me think of thatfrom an aesthetic standpoint or
(17:46):
even just from a functionalstandpoint oh, I'm trying to
support my spine.
We could end up in this way,bracing ourselves.
So we're not allowing fluidmovement, and the fluid movement
could be right.
There's always individualityhere, but the fluid movement
could be what allows us toactivate and soften in a more
balanced way and exploredifferent range of motion.
There's another element here ofjust pain science in terms of
(18:12):
when we learn something hurtsand we brace around it and we
light up that cue oh, pain,danger.
Or then someone says, don't dothat, it's going to hurt you.
Then you do it and it hurts,because that's what I'm primed
for, right?
So there's.
It's so interesting here,though, because I was talking to
Tara Tanini, who came on theshow to talk about acupuncture
(18:33):
and women's health, and she saidthat people one of her thoughts
about acupuncture and whypeople tend to avoid it is
because when you're young.
You go to the doctor and theysay this isn't going to hurt at
all, and then they prick you andit hurts.
So it's like when someone says,oh, acupuncture needles don't
hurt.
I heard that before.
So there's something in hereabout how do we tell truth about
(18:54):
pain without exacerbating it.
How do we find fluidity ofmovement even when we are
feeling pain?
My experience postpartum isdefinitely nonlinear in terms of
.
You know, I had back pain, Ihad hip instability.
There are some days where Istill wake up and I'm like, oh,
that's worse today.
Okay, it was a lot better lastweek, right, and sometimes I
(19:15):
know what happened.
Oh, I did 10 mile run yesterdayand it was slippery and mud so
I had to do more stability, andthis is new.
And some days I it's not clear.
It's just a ride that we're onand we have to kind of listen
and be responsive and choose thenext tool.
Madison Smith (19:31):
Well, it's interesting you're saying this,
because my question to you, likein a practitioner sense, is
like what are you looking for?
And I don't want to put wordsin your mouth, but I think a lot
of times people are.
I want to, I want it to feellike it used to feel.
Mm, hmm, yeah, I want to beable to trust my body the way I
(19:51):
used to be able to trust my body.
Lisa Danylchuk (19:56):
I mean when you say what are you looking for?
Well, in what sense?
Right, because I think that'sgoing to be a question to each
person and each provider.
If someone were asking for myhelp, I would want to know what
they were looking for forthemselves, what they were
looking for from me, right.
But if someone has been throughbirth and is maybe in pain and
(20:19):
looking for physiologicalsupport, let's just say we're
talking about core stability,which obviously right.
If you grow a baby in your body, it shifts things around a
little bit in there, right A lot.
And if you give vaginal birthor have a C-section, that's a
big, over the course of anamount of hours or so, big
change in either your skin andyour organs and your fascia, or
(20:42):
also perhaps your sacrum andyour hips and everything that's
involved.
So I think a lot of timespeople are looking for to feel
better and and the reference forbetter is before.
It's interesting for me becauseI felt great while I was
pregnant.
So the reference for me isn'tnecessarily before.
(21:03):
It's like yeah, hey, what aboutwhen I was pregnant?
That felt awesome.
So you know, the solution islike two months postpartum to
get pregnant again if you'reback, but I was tempted.
Madison Smith (21:15):
Let me tell you that's an interesting
conversation we should haveoffline.
It is our frame of referenceand this starts to tie into the
brain stuff.
Ultimately, a lot of this comesfrom the Mother Brain book by
Chelsea Conaboy, who is amedical journalist.
She went out there and she likedug up all of the studies there
are for women going intoparenthood.
(21:36):
But I think the interestingthing that I want to highlight
is and we know this in otherareas too your brain physically
changes on the journey intoparenthood.
I say parenthood collectively,because any person who is in a
full-time caring positionexperiences the same kind of
physiological brain changes.
(21:57):
Now we don't have enough studyto say precisely what changes
they are.
In some studies it is less graymatter, in some it's more it's
white matter.
Everyone's looking at differentthings, but I think there's
enough data to suggest thatthere are physiological brain
changes, even if we're not surewhy precisely.
(22:17):
We see it and this is somethingwe also see if we're dealing
with illness or disease.
We saw it with COVID patients.
We also see this in peri andmenopause brain changes.
So these times of like bigphysiological transition, our
brains are impacted and for me,the takeaway is even if nothing
else changed in your body evenif you hadn't given birth, if
(22:41):
you had experienced these brainchanges.
Your sense of self, yourproprioception and your
interoception have shifted.
And this is a beautiful tie-into my work with the alexander
technique, because I rememberone of the first sessions I ever
had, the.
The instructor had me shift myhead slightly, and I mean like a
millimeter, but it felt like mywhole head moved off my body
(23:04):
right and it it really playswith this sense of, as I said,
interoception and proprioception, our understanding of ourselves
in space and, particularly inparenthood and motherhood, our
sense of self, emotionally too,because now all of these things
that we knew to be true nolonger feel true.
And when we take that pressureoff, it's not me, it's not that
(23:28):
I've changed, like my brain haschanged.
Literally my whole worldviewhas shifted through this journey
.
So, instead of spending all mytime trying to go back to who I
was, what's available to me now,and for me as a coach, as a
practitioner, like that's wherethe good shit is.
Lisa Danylchuk (23:45):
I love that you're talking about Alexander
technique.
I was just in a training theother day about the Alexander
technique and deep brainreorienting, which we talked
about last season with Dr RuthLanius in terms of treatment of
trauma and dissociation.
In deep brain reorienting, whichwe talked about last season
with Dr Ruth Lanius, in terms oftreatment of trauma and
dissociation, in deep brainreorienting, we focus a lot on
movements of the head or theinitial moment of shock in
trauma and how we respond and alot of times there's maybe a
(24:07):
pull back with the head.
If there's something suddenthat happens, we'll pull back or
we'll turn our head away, orthere's just these ways that we
can unpack.
If there's an initial moment,split second reaction, we can
start to unpack some of that andeven these small turns of the
head and then slowing thingsdown and exploring what happens
in our interoception, feelinginto what we're noticing in our
(24:30):
bodies and just I think mostpeople listening know the
difference but likeinteroception, feeling into
somatically what's happeninginternally in your body,
proprioception, feeling yourbody in space, right, but in
deep brain reorienting we'rereally curious about those head
movements and I think it fitsright in with Alexander
technique.
So it's so interesting that youfound that and that you found
that little tiny shift to be sopowerful.
Madison Smith (24:53):
Yeah, and that was like the first time I'd ever
done Alexander technique as ayoung 19 year old singer.
Lisa Danylchuk (24:59):
Way back Nice.
Madison Smith (25:00):
And I have since done many, many years of studies
.
But it is it.
It is disorienting.
And then it also ties into thedopamine, the predictability
system of our brains, right.
A lot of times we think ofdopamine as the rewards like
it's good stuff, it feels goodstuff, but you also get rewards
for things that don't feel goodnecessarily.
But it's because our brains canpredict the outcome correctly.
Lisa Danylchuk (25:23):
Or even seeking right I think of dopamine like
seeking something too, like oh,I'm going to have this for
dinner.
Yes, I had that for dinner.
Madison Smith (25:30):
I know exactly what this is going to taste like
Right, yeah, the predictability.
I know exactly what this isgoing to taste like Right, yeah,
the predictability.
Yeah, looking for that Exactly.
And so movements are the samething and our understanding of
our bodies is the same thing.
The predictability of it is asafety mechanism for us.
Lisa Danylchuk (25:46):
It makes sense.
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(26:26):
about your choices as yousupport folks navigating
post-traumatic stress, whetheryou're managing a program,
working one-on-one with clientsor leading therapeutic groups.
Of course, the experience isdesigned to be good for you too.
With eight modules and eightyoga classes, you'll get a taste
of how it feels to practiceyoga in a resource-building,
(26:47):
trauma-responsive manner.
Head on over to howwecanhealcomforward slash Y4T.
That's the letter Y, the numberfour and the letter T to apply
to join the program today.
Mention the podcast in yourapplication for a special bonus.
One more time, nice and slow.
The website is howwecanhealcomforward slash Y4T.
(27:09):
Our next cohort kicks off June9th.
If you're feeling called tojoin us.
I would love to welcome youinto the next cohort and support
you through the program.
So, going to a yoga classpostpartum it's interesting
because I talked to some peoplefollowed along journeys, people
(27:32):
who are pregnant and deliveredclose to me or people who have
much older kids.
I talked to some of my friendsand their kids are like eight
and they're like I haven't evenbeen back to yoga.
And then I talked to friendswho are yoga teachers, like me,
and they got back on their matin this very slow, progressed
way and just noticing how yourbody needs care right, your body
needs different things atdifferent times and tracking
(27:55):
with it and being responsive toit tends to be really helpful.
It's kind of impossible not tonotice.
Oh, I used to be able to dothis and now I can't right.
Interestingly though, this is atotal aside I could go into
handstand and balance for dayspostpartum, which I've never
been able to do.
I've always been super bendyand I thought I'm postpartum I'm
(28:17):
going to be even more bendy,but something about the way my
weight was proportioned orsomething I don't know.
I could balance in a handstandfor days in the first few yoga
classes.
I went back within the firstyear postpartum and then
eventually that's gone.
Now I'm all wobbly all over theplace again.
I thought my core was allblasted away and I would never
(28:37):
like.
I've always thought this isinteresting, maybe for somebody.
I've always thought to myselfthe story I told was the reason
I can't balance in handstand inthe middle of the room for
minutes, like I've seen manypeople do, is because I have a
long torso and there's a lot ofcore stability that was like
missing, like my core is notstrong enough to hold me in
(28:57):
handstand in the middle of theroom.
Then I have this experience Ihad a vaginal delivery of my
core being stretched to 10months pregnant and, within a
few months after that, beingable to nail a handstand and
hold it in the middle of theroom.
No problem.
I was like what, this is cool.
(29:19):
This feels so different.
It's so interesting that thestory that I was telling wasn't
accurate.
Right, because, if anything, Iwas in a time of, and still am
in a time of rebalancing andintegrating my core muscles in
physical therapy, pelvic floortherapy, like I was doing all
the things to try to take careof myself but then just
magically could do a hand stand,not that, like doing a
(29:41):
handstand, has this crazyinherent value, but it was so
interesting as something I hadworked towards and then just
showed up in this time where Ithought it would be the opposite
.
Madison Smith (29:51):
I mean thinking about the core specifically.
So much of our core getsstretched out.
But if our understanding ofcore both prior to and following
pregnancy is tightening it upagain for me understanding now
how those muscles coordinate andhow they actually functionally
support you, I'd be like, well,yeah, perhaps that expansion,
that stretching of those deepcore muscles is what allowed
(30:14):
that functioning to bettersupport you in a handstand.
Lisa Danylchuk (30:17):
And another thing I've learned physical
therapy wise is like you've beensaying about the TVA, like
actually pushing out can be morestabilizing.
I've been in CrossFit beforeand stuff too right, where
people talk about that as likealmost a little bit of bearing
down to stabilize, which is theopposite of sucking in and up.
You're laughing, peoplelistening can't see your face,
but I saw.
Madison Smith (30:36):
That's why Well, okay, so my expertise and my
experience is from singing andit is a very finely tuned system
.
So when we're talking aboutbreath and breath pressure,
intra-abdominal pressure is whatwe're talking about.
If there is too much pressure,that's going to affect your
singing.
For me anytime, I'm thinkingabout bearing down or pushing
out.
Those are cues you can use, butit might be activating the
(30:59):
system more than is necessary.
So I'm very particular aboutwhat cues I use in that respect.
Tell me what cues you like.
One of the basis for me isrelease versus relax.
It comes to muscle tone,releasing a muscle.
If you're holding somethingwith your hand and you release,
you don't have to relax ittotally Right, start over again.
(31:19):
You can release as a renewing,a releasing of that activation.
So there's a sense of lengthand activation in the word
release versus relax, which is atotal letting go of whatever
muscle it is, which is a totalletting go of whatever muscle it
is.
So I'm very particular aboutusing release versus relax,
especially when I'm cueingspecific movement pattern things
(31:40):
.
Lisa Danylchuk (31:40):
I appreciate this in a lot of ways.
Madison Smith (31:43):
Yeah, I'm specifically thinking about
breathing.
I actually like to cue breathinto the back of the pelvis
structure.
So a lot of times we think ofthe pelvis as a single bony
structure, but it's actually twohalves and anyone who's gone
through pregnancy likely hadpain through the back of the
pelvis or even through thecenter of the pelvis lightning
(32:04):
crotch as it's affectionatelyknown, or SI joint pain right
had both of those Mm-hmm.
So if we imagine that we'rebreathing into widening the
pelvis right, it can move everso slightly because it's held
together by these ligaments, bythese muscles.
I'm just imagining I'mbreathing and widening into that
space.
That is now your TVAfunctioning properly.
(32:27):
That is intra-abdominal support.
That's it.
That's all you have to do.
You don't have to push out.
If you push out, try, imagineyou're pushing out.
Yeah, what do you notice?
Lisa Danylchuk (32:37):
If I'm trying to push out to the sides, yeah.
I actually I just feel more,like more in feeling.
Madison Smith (32:44):
Yeah, my superficial Donald's, the rectus
of Donald's kick on, theytighten or pushing in because,
all this energy is goingoutwards.
So even though I'm expandingoutwards with the TV, if I'm
thinking I'm pushing out, I'mactually activating different
muscle groups Right.
So this is why I'm like there'slayers to this.
When it comes to postpartumfitness or fitness in general, a
(33:07):
lot of times we're cuing thingscoming from the right
perspective but it's actuallykicking on muscles.
We don't want to cue that way.
The specificity of that isreally important and it's
something we don't get enoughtraining in collectively,
especially for postpartum bodies.
So much is so much softness,especially for postpartum bodies
, so much softness andunderstanding nervous system
(33:29):
activation in that.
Can we approach our return tophysical movement in a place of
softness and gentleness asopposed to activating these
muscles to the super extreme?
Lisa Danylchuk (33:43):
Right.
Yeah, like you said earlier,creating space for parents and
people, postpartum creatingspace, because I think that
space creates a sense ofsoftness or gentleness in our
approach to our bodies.
There can be this I mean, I seeit as very American, but people
might see it through othercultural lenses too Like get
(34:03):
back at it, get back to work,get back together, get back to
right.
Like get back instead of moveforward and instead of take this
very sacred pause which I veryintentionally tried to do of
making space and making spacefor your body, cause there is
some element of healing that istime.
That is magic right, like, oh,it's better tomorrow than it was
(34:24):
yesterday.
And there is an element ofhealing that is attention and
intention and care from otherpeople, and there is some
element of healing that's, likewe've said, very nonlinear.
So, with all of that, I think,when we can give it space and
call in supports and try torefine our skillfulness, our
(34:46):
understanding of ourselves, ourbodies, of what they need now
rather than what would bringthem back then, right, what they
needed then was different.
What our bodies needed a yearago is different from what our
bodies need now.
So let's just focus on what ourbodies need now for health, for
function, for pain-freemovement, for enjoyable movement
(35:09):
.
Right Do the duties that weneed in everyday life, like the
amount of times I squat down topick up my 27-pound daughter
right, or her toys or whateverelse.
My daily movement habits havealso changed, so why would I
have the same needs as I did ayear, two years ago?
Madison Smith (35:30):
It's kind of like a reconnection with presence.
Yeah, all facets.
Lisa Danylchuk (35:37):
So much a basis of trauma-informed work, and I
know you've done studies intrauma-informed care.
You've done some with me.
What does it mean for you to betrauma-informed in your work?
A lot, it means very much theend.
Madison Smith (35:53):
I think there's so many different ways that I
use the principles of beingtrauma-informed in my work.
I mean number one is meetingpeople where they are and not
having an idea or an expectationof what I want from them.
And something that alwaysrattles around in my brain from
(36:14):
I did Lisa's yoga for traumayoga Lisa's yoga for trauma.
Lisa Danylchuk (36:17):
I got that name on a retreat that Madison came
on in Bali.
Was that 2017 maybe?
I think the person holding thecard for our pickup said Yoga
Lisa.
I became Yoga Lisa and it haslasted.
Madison Smith (36:29):
I love it, this idea of balance?
Right, we're not trying to andthis is something that ties into
resilience too right, we're nottrying to avoid the feelings
that we experienced in trauma,or the negative feelings, or
this is a great tie into pain.
We're not trying to avoid thesensation of pain, but how do we
move through it?
Lisa Danylchuk (36:49):
Yeah.
How do we relate to it?
Even yeah.
Madison Smith (36:51):
And breath.
For me, like ultimately all ofmy work, foundationally, is how
can we breathe through it?
Because if our our respiratorymuscles are working properly,
that means our postural musclesare working properly.
That means we can connect withour nervous system properly and
cool it down when we need to.
It means we're getting ourlymph and our blood and all of
the liquids in our body to wherethey need to be for healing.
(37:13):
There's so many layers to thiswork, so there's emotional,
psychological trauma, but thenthere's physiological trauma and
how we heal from pain, and thatsoftness is key in all of those
places.
Lisa Danylchuk (37:26):
Yeah, it really is.
And the listening.
I think that's a really bigpiece that you highlighted.
It can be tempting to find atechnique and just apply it.
This is the 10-step process.
I mean, if I had a dollar forevery time.
Someone said what's thesequence for trauma recovery and
I'm like it doesn't quite workthat way.
I can give you three samplesequences and you can pick which
(37:48):
one is the most helpful as astarting point, but it's just
not.
It's just that it's not solinear or so what's the word.
I want to say myopic, but Ifeel like that's judgmental.
It's not so universal.
We need responsiveness in ourcare.
(38:10):
That's such a good word.
So in the work that you'redoing with parents now, how has
that trauma-informed perspectivethat you got from the Y4T
training?
Madison Smith (38:24):
that you got from the Y4T training.
Has it changed anything for you?
Yes, it's a short answer.
I've moved through differentwaves and cycles.
With that I mean, as a singer,understanding how trauma impacts
our body physiologically.
We're talking about bracing,right, holding.
(38:45):
All of those things are reallyantithetical to singing, but all
of those things are reallyantithetical to living.
Anytime we're bracing orholding, we're setting ourselves
up for injury, if we don'talready have one Fatigue and
injury.
We're using muscles in a waythat they're not intended to
work.
It's very easy to create thatcycle loop for ourselves.
If we're not able to breathefully, we're likely to be
(39:05):
causing I don't want to saydamage, but amping up the
nervous system as much as we'retrying to cool it down.
I got a client recently who shelike went down the list.
She's like yep, I wantAlexander to be yep, I want
trauma informed.
Like yep, yep, yep.
And every week she shows up andit's like a totally different
new experience of like somethingvery deep that I was like, oh,
(39:26):
that would have been helpful toknow.
But cool, we're just constantlyuncovering it.
But I don't ever, in any moment, say I can't handle that.
And if I did, I'd say you needto talk to so and so.
Right, it's just about thatspace, that grace, to say, hey,
what are you comfortable sharingwith me today?
And how beautiful that is.
It's an act of co-creation.
(39:47):
Someone else's healing is anact of co-creation, and we get
to heal together.
Lisa Danylchuk (39:52):
Yeah, it's beautiful and I think part of
what I hear and what you'resaying is the comfort and the
steadiness that comes with theawareness Like, oh, I've studied
trauma, I understand, I've gotthis basis.
What you're saying makes senseto me.
When we don't have thatbackground, it's easy for us as
providers to start to panic, alittle like, oh, I'm getting out
of my wheelhouse, I don't knowwhat's happening, what's going
(40:14):
to happen, what if I dosomething wrong?
But when you have a sense,instead of going in that
direction, it's like thanks fortelling me, here's some ways we
could approach that today.
Also, thanks for telling me itmight be time to add a referral
in here, right, like knowingyour scope and being able to be
responsive and centered andgrounded and have some clarity
(40:35):
rather than go into anxiety orpanic because it's a whole world
of unknown and I mean to add alayer of empathy to all that.
Madison Smith (40:44):
Right, this isn't my wheelhouse.
Like I'm not a psychotherapist,I'm not going to give you
therapy, but I can.
I can connect with that feelingand that sensation and we can
develop community and connectionaround that in the moment.
Even if I can't support you inthe way you ultimately need, I
can be with you in that moment,and that's lovely.
Lisa Danylchuk (41:06):
Yes, one of the things I've been loving is
something called dream storming.
I don't know if you heard theepisode with Dr Jennifer Gomez
where she talks about this termthat she came up with.
Instead of brainstorming like,okay, we've got a problem, and
thinking about the problem atthe same level that it was
created, going out to the dreamand pulling from there.
So if you could dream, stormwhat it looks like for parents
(41:27):
to have access to care, to havesupports, to have health and
healing in this big change right, it's a big change to go from a
person maybe just taking careof yourself to a parent, or even
to a parent the second or thirdtime, or parent of multiples,
right?
So if you could dream, stormwhat's available to people, what
(41:48):
would you see that?
Madison Smith (41:50):
is such a great question.
Lisa Danylchuk (41:52):
I love it.
It's one of my favorite things.
I'm like let's dream storm.
Hi, nice to meet you.
Let's dream storm.
Madison Smith (41:58):
What immediately comes up, and we haven't really
talked about this yet, but Ithink it sets the opportunity in
play, which is when we're goingthrough the journey into
parenthood.
Our brains are shifting, but itactually gives us access to
heightened myelination andneuroplasticity.
So what does that mean?
That means we can learn newthings more quickly.
(42:18):
It's how we become betterparents.
We're able to learn how torespond to our child's cues.
We get real intimate, real fast.
With this little being right,we learn really quickly how to
keep them alive.
It's amazing, and it's not justfor parenting.
That's your life, that's yourcareer, anything you want.
(42:39):
If you want to go out and learnhow to do handstands, now's the
time to do it.
So reframing this transitioninto parenthood as an
opportunity to level up yourentire life, however you so fit.
A lot of times we think childrenis a detriment to our career,
to our professions, to ourbodies, to our brains.
I mean the implication ofmother brain in itself, this
(43:01):
idea that women are somehowcognitively negatively impacted.
It's an opportunity for us toexplore ourselves and an
entirely new shift in our lives.
And I think the same thing istrue in peri and menopause.
If we could see these placeswhere we feel the most
physically vulnerable, the mostphysically outside of ourselves,
(43:21):
not as setbacks but asopportunities.
Yes, your dream storm, thatwould be my dream storm.
Lisa Danylchuk (43:27):
I love it.
I love it.
I hope people listening canreally take that in and, however
it applies to changes happeningin their life right, and I know
sometimes we can go to that.
You know the character forcrisis is also opportunity and
things can feel trite in thatway.
But to really step into thispossibility for, like, change is
(43:48):
happening, transformation ishappening, so can we make sure
that we're not just seeing theways that that feels hard or
harmful, can we also explore?
It makes me think of that breathyou mentioned, like taking that
breath all the way into theback of your pelvis.
It's like this, like expand inin two directions of okay, this
(44:10):
is hard, okay, this is amazing,like what, what about that?
And also just opening our mindsto possibility, which is a huge
step in and of itself, becausewhen we're in a place where
we're very stressed or we'reneeding to be really focused
taking care of a human right, itcan be easy to kind of have
tunnel vision rather than havejust even a moment of opening or
(44:35):
spaciousness or possibility formenopause and paramenopause too
, which is something I'd love totalk more about here.
Whole season, whole year.
Madison Smith (44:44):
I'll probably do a whole decade in a couple years
.
Lisa Danylchuk (44:47):
The podcast is all about menopause and
paramenopause.
What happened?
How old is Lisa?
Madison Smith (44:52):
Well, I just wanted to share a little
anecdote from my experience too.
After I had my son, I didn'twant to sing.
I had lost that joy for singingand on one hand, it was because
I didn't feel good in my bodyright, my body was injured.
My body didn't feel good, butthe desire to sing wasn't there
and I spent so much time beatingmyself up because I felt like I
(45:16):
should want to do this thingI've always wanted to do, and it
took me years to come back toit.
Years, and that's a lot ofenergy and time.
And I think that's just oneexample of how the transition,
such a big transition, intoparenthood can feel so
ungrounding to us, and the onlything we have to tether us back
(45:37):
to our reality is what we knew.
But instead of beatingourselves up when those things
don't fit, giving ourselves thespace to let go and open up to
what else might be available.
Lisa Danylchuk (45:48):
Right, and that really fills full circle to how
we started this conversationaround.
Instead of reaching back, beingresponsive to what's true now
and that's such a powerfulpractice in trauma therapy and,
I'm imagining, in your coaching,in so many practices Okay, well
(46:09):
, what's actually happening now?
Because we can get really inour heads about what's supposed
to be or what was or what willbe, and this is the path.
It's like, well, what do youhave?
What it looks like for someoneelse?
It this way.
Or the book says seven stepsthis way, and I love a good
structure when it works.
But when we bump up against itand it's not working, well, what
(46:30):
actually do you want and needright now?
And it's so interesting thatsomething you've loved became
something that you weren'tfeeling the joy in.
I imagine that's quite areckoning and a process.
I mean, I've heard you singrecently your voice, by the way,
my goodness, woman, like it isso amazing and beautiful and
(46:52):
angelic.
I know that's probably overusedin your world.
Oh, the voice is angelic.
I'm like, literally angels aresinging right now.
When I hear you sing, it's soamazing.
So, yeah, anyone who has theopportunity to perform, I'm just
going to highly recommend it.
Good for the soul, get some,you know, very inspiring.
As someone who's always lovedto sing but like my highlight is
(47:13):
performing little mermaid atMolly's show, I would love to
just like borrow your body for aday and be able to do that.
Madison Smith (47:22):
You do can have pipes like this If you just
breathe into your pelvis justbreathe into the back of your
pelvis.
Lisa Danylchuk (47:29):
You too can have a little pedantic, but it's
probably more true than that youcan have soprano pipes like
this right, I'm probably more ofan alto, but you know, what
would you say to someone who'slistening?
Maybe they're going through abig change.
Maybe that change is the changeinto parenthood and they're
just looking for some kind ofnext step in healing.
How would you give them alittle bit of support, direction
(47:53):
if they're looking for it?
I know we're just talking aboutintuition, so the direction
might be right back tothemselves.
What would you say to someone?
Madison Smith (48:02):
First and foremost, you don't have to do
it all.
Say to someone, first andforemost, you don't have to do
it all.
Yes, hallelujah, hey, there's alot of energy out there around
doing all of the things Ourbodies can't physically do, all
the things.
I think rest is so entirelyunderrated and breathing is a
form of exercise.
Those two things for me.
(48:22):
So you can rest and you canbreathe, and that is a form of
movement, that is a form ofmuscular activation.
Two things for me.
So you can rest and you canbreathe, and that is a form of
movement, that is a form ofmuscular activation, that is a
way of connecting with your body, that's a way of calming your
nervous system, that is a way ofmoving fluids through your body
.
It is such a powerhouse movethat is so underrated.
So, yeah, if you're goingthrough a place of transition,
(48:43):
reach out to support, but alsodon't be afraid to do less and
rest and touch in with who youare now.
What's true now, what feelsright now?
And start with that day by day.
Lisa Danylchuk (48:54):
I love it.
And when you talk about rest,it feels so important with
parenting, because many peoplelose a lot of sleep for a number
of years, and so if you can'tget a full night's sleep like I
definitely did not get a fullnight's sleep last night I
probably got interrupted sixtimes, which is not typical but
happens right.
There are certain nights where,for whatever reason,
(49:16):
something's going on and you'relike, oh, here I am awake again.
Oh, this time it's not so bad.
Oh, this time I'm really drowsy.
What's going on?
Right, and so rest, for me too,it has become.
I've always been a proponent ofit.
But it's like finding momentsof rest can be so powerful.
And if you're in bed and youcan't fall asleep, can you rest?
Can you breathe?
(49:37):
I just did that the other day.
I'm not someone who usually hasa hard time falling asleep, but
I was in bed and I was a littlebit wired and everyone else was
sleeping.
I was like this is like primetime.
Everybody else is sleeping,come on.
So I just started doing alonger exhale, which you know
from the physiology of breathingand from yoga.
It tends to be more soothing,and I think I got to.
(49:58):
Four breaths is the last thingI remember, which is that's
impressive, right Like.
And then I woke up the next dayand didn't remember till noon
that I took some deep breathsand micro rest right Any little
window of it, and some of thatis the permission to do less.
Some of that is that let's nottry to do it all.
(50:18):
Let's try to find what the mostessential need is and meet it,
get the support that feels best.
We were talking earlier abouthaving different providers and
experts on your team and reallytrusting the intuition of that.
I mean, there have been peopleI've worked with that have been
really helpful for some things.
And then I'm done, right, andthen move on.
(50:39):
Or let that go, release thatand make space for nothing, or
make space for something else.
Madison Smith (50:47):
It's that, taking ownership of your experience,
yeah, I love it For yourself andfor your body.
Lisa Danylchuk (50:53):
What's next for you?
What are you offering?
Are you writing a book?
Are you going to write a book?
Are you going to sing a book?
Madison Smith (50:58):
I'm going to sing a book.
I had thought about writing abook, although it would probably
be something very specific tosingers, I don't know.
I'm actually kind of shiftingmy focus lately and doing a lot
more in-person work here in SanFrancisco and hosting workshops
specifically for mothers.
I've been doing a lot more workaround body love, body image,
body confidence, because allthese things are interrelated,
(51:21):
and I might actually startrolling out a program for teens
as well Beautiful.
I did one recently for a coupleof teenage girls and I think
that's something that could bereally valuable for these tender
babes.
Lisa Danylchuk (51:33):
Yes, how could people get in touch with you if
they want to follow your work orwork with you directly?
Madison Smith (51:39):
Great.
Yeah, my website ismadsopranocom and that's my
tagline for Instagram andFacebook.
I'm not as much on Tiki Tokis,but you know it's there, just in
case.
Yeah, hopefully you can find me, or you can find me via Lisa
Yoga.
Lisa Yoga Lisa has your number.
(52:00):
Yeah, I'm looking forward todoing more in-person workshops
here in the city and trying tobuild more community here.
So, particularly for anyone inthe bay area, definitely would
love to see you and reach outyes, I love it.
Lisa Danylchuk (52:13):
Last question what brings you hope?
Madison Smith (52:17):
oh, god you know, looking in my son's face right,
I know the world is a scaryplace right now in a lot of ways
for many people, but this istemporary and someday our
children are going to be runningthe show and we have the
opportunity to cultivate a newreality.
Lisa Danylchuk (52:38):
Yeah, we can dream storm it.
Thank you so much for beinghere and for sharing yourself
and your work.
I think it just brings up somany different avenues coming
together and more questions.
I'd love to hear from people inthe comments.
If you're listening and youhave a question or a thought you
want to share, post it in thecomments or you can email us at
(53:00):
podcasthowyoucanhealcom.
Thank you, madison.
Thank you, lisa.
Such a pleasure.
Thanks so much for listening.
Now I'd love to hear from youhow has becoming a parent
shifted your experience of life,or what massive life
transitions have you experiencedand how did you feel supported
(53:23):
through them?
Share your answers and what'sbeen healing for you in the
comments below on YouTube orfind me on Instagram at
HowWeCanHeal.
Don't forget to go toHowWeCanHealcom to sign up for
email updates as well.
You'll also find additionaltrainings there, tons of helpful
resources and the fulltranscript of each show.
If you love the show, pleaseleave us a review on Apple,
(53:47):
spotify, audible or wherever youget your podcasts.
If you're watching on YouTube,be sure to like and subscribe,
and keep sharing the shows youlove most with all your friends.
Visit howwecanhealcom forwardslash podcast to share your
thoughts and ideas for the show.
I always love hearing from you.
Before we wrap up for today, Iwant to be clear that this
(54:09):
podcast isn't offeringprescriptions.
It's not advice, nor is it anykind of mental health treatment
or diagnosis.
Your decisions are in yourhands and I encourage you to
consult with any healthcareprofessionals you may need to
support you through your uniquepath of healing.
In addition, everyone's opinionhere is their own and opinions
(54:31):
can change.
Guests share their thoughts,not that of the host or sponsors
.
I'd like to thank our gueststoday and everyone who helped
support this podcast directlyand indirectly.
Alex, thanks for taking care ofthe babe and the fur babies
while I record.
Last but never least, I'd loveto give a special shout out to
(54:51):
my big brother, matt, who passedaway in 2002.
He wrote this music and itmakes my heart so happy to share
it with you here.
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