How Therapeutic Nurturing Can Help Us Heal from Patriarchy & Misogyny

What if the presence you practice in mindfulness is the same wiring that makes secure attachment possible? That question drives our conversation with clinician, author, and teacher Christine Forner, who introduces Securefulness—a relational state where an attuned nervous system helps another human co‑regulate. Christine explains why care isn’t sentimental; it’s a biologically essential force that organizes safety, regulation, and health. When true care arrives, dissociated pain often surfaces, which can feel like getting worse. She reframes this as healing beginning and uses a powerful “care isn’t the bucket” story, plus a re-feeding analogy, to show how to pace nourishment without overwhelming the system.

We get practical about what Securefulness looks like in the room: noticing micro‑signals like a shoulder hitch or a shift in breath, naming danger qualities, and adding immediate protections—hoodies, pillows, sunglasses, softened gaze—to reduce social threat and restore choice. Christine shares how therapeutic nurturing has helped clients reduce suicidal ideation within weeks by leveraging presence, titration, and interoception. She also digs into primal isolation threat, how shame language takes root in early deprivation, and we talk about why the inner critic is better replaced by an “inner celebrant” that collaborates with the body’s needs.

Zooming out, we challenge the idea that violence is human nature. Christine defines misogyny as disdain for Homo sapien nurturing and argues that many systems are fight‑state adaptations, not destiny. We explore evolutionary roots of co‑regulation, theory of mind as soothing, and why humans likely evolved in stable, alloparenting communities where care was central. There are signs of change: expanding parental leave, trauma‑informed practice, and evidence that stable resources like universal basic income lower addiction and crime while improving health and learning. If we organize society around care—as infrastructure, not charity—healing gets hard but possible, and repeatable.

If this conversation sparks something in you, share it with a friend, subscribe for future episodes, and leave a review wherever you listen. Your reflections help shape what we explore next—what stood out most to you?

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Episode Transcript

Lisa Danylchuk (00:04):
Welcome back to the How We Can Heal podcast.
Today, our guest is ChristineFourner.
Christine Fourner is aclinician, author, and teacher
who spent the last four decadessupporting people healing from
coercive control, domesticviolence, sexual abuse, and
chronic neglect.
She came on the show way backin season one to talk about

(00:25):
trauma, dissociation, andmindfulness.
That's episode nine.
It was one of our most popularepisodes.
So if you haven't heard, goback and take a listen.
Her work brings a deepunderstanding of traumatic
dissociation, developmentaltrauma, and the neurobiology of
mindfulness.
And she's known around theworld for her powerful insight
into how patriarchy and misogynyshape trauma and the ways we

(00:48):
heal from it.
She co-developed thefoundational concepts of
securefulness and primalisolation anguish and originated
therapeutic nurturing andrenurturing syndrome, reframing
nurturing not as a sentiment,but as a biologically essential
force that organizes safety,regulation, and human health.

(01:09):
Today, she explains each ofthese concepts and applies them
not only to trauma recovery, butto larger societal challenges.
She shares why care isn'tsentimental and how it is
essential to our survival,growth, and healing as a
species.
Christine holds degrees in bothwomen's studies and social work

(01:31):
and is trained in many healingmodalities, including EMDR,
haven't, and sensory motorpsychotherapy.
She's the former president ofthe International Society for
the Study of Trauma andDissociation, the author of
Dissociation, Mindfulness andCreative Meditations, and her
upcoming book, The Craving,redefines how we understand
harm, healing, and what it meansto be human.

(01:54):
When she's not teaching orwriting, Christine trains and
competes in triathlon and she'scompeted Iron Women events
around the world.
Please join me in welcomingChristine Horner back to the
show.
I'm so happy to have you here.
I'm so very happy to be here.

(02:14):
You are a gift to the universe,and we've had you on the show
before to talk about mindfulnessand dissociation.
And we're going to talk aboutsome other things today, some
other very important things.
So tell us, what issecurefulness?

Christine Forner (02:28):
So, securefulness, it really
actually starts from an ahamoment I had while I was doing
my master's thesis, like wayback in 2009, when I was doing
research on dissociation andmindfulness.
At the time, I didn't realizeit was like a really like two
weird things to be studying.

(02:50):
And in hindsight, it's actuallyquite funny because the title
of my master's thesis isCreative and Contemplative
Meditation Techniques withPeople Who Have Dissociative
Identity Disorder.
It's a very strange thesis.
But I was reading informationthat the brain structures that
are responsible for the state ofmindfulness or the state of

(03:11):
meditation, it's actually calledlots of things.
It's called flow, it's calledall sorts of things.
But that altered state ofconsciousness are the same brain
structures that are responsibleor are active when you are
securely attached.
When I heard that, it reallybecame an aha moment of this
actually has been labeledmindfulness, but it's actually

(03:35):
profound secure attachment.
But secure attachment, mostpeople make the association of
attachment theory and the waythat people attach.
So you have your insecureattachment, your insecure
attachment styles.
Um I went bigger than that.
I started asking the questionsof what actually is mindfulness

(04:00):
and why is it so connected tobeing securely attached?
And you and I were talkingabout trying to put a word and
label this state that isn't justclosing your eyes and having a
singular experience ofmindfulness, but having a
relational mindfulness.

(04:20):
And so I was labeling off allthe it was like this, and then
it's like that.
And you were writing down wordsand you came up with the word
secure.
So secureful is the word thatsticks.
And I think it actually bestdescribes the relational state
we were intended to be, or theway that we evolved, and that

(04:43):
you and I started actuallytrying to figure out how do we
explain this to people in aclinical way.

Lisa Danylchuk (04:50):
Yeah.

Christine Forner (04:50):
Carefulness is basically when the therapist is
in a mindful, present, attunedstate within themselves, which
makes it much easier to helpanother human being co-regulate.
So securefulness really is thestate of human co-regulation.

(05:12):
And so I think if we were tosummarize in one small sentence
and over, over oversimplifywhat's going on with our
clients, they're they come inextraordinarily dysregulated.
And the task at hand isteaching them how to become
regulated.
And I think that it most of thework at the beginning is done
by the therapist being in astate of regulation and helping

(05:35):
that human being learn toregulate these dysregulated
experiences.
And to me, that'ssecurefulness.

Lisa Danylchuk (05:42):
Yeah, it's profoundly relational, right?
And it makes me think too ofclients with dissociative
identity disorder, how theymight have a lot of capacity, be
very high functioning, andpresent as very regulated and
have a lot of that, you know,other stuff, we'll just call it
in parts and in fragmentedmemories.

(06:02):
And so presenting with thatsecurefulness and that
attunement and that acceptanceof everything that they've been
through can help open up anopportunity for some form of
integration or healing orwhatever we want to call that,
whatever they're seeking.

Christine Forner (06:16):
Where I'm at right now really started with
discovering dissociation andmindfulness, which has led me to
circle around to humanevolution.
Because I really want to knowhow did we evolve mindfulness?
Because mindfulness is so rivaland so polar to dissociation.

(06:37):
And that's what we talked aboutin the first episode that we
talked about a couple years ago.
So we live in an incrediblystressful world.
We live in a world that isactually grossly violent.
The cruelty and the inhumanityis big, big, big.
And there's this massive globalbiased assumption that this is

(06:57):
our normal, that this is howhumans behave, which makes me
go, well, if this is our normal,how could mindfulness ever have
possibly evolved?

Lisa Danylchuk (07:09):
Yeah.

Christine Forner (07:10):
And it's made me go back and listen to some of
the foundational stuff withBuddha.
Right?
So we have to put the contextof what Buddha was experiencing.
Buddha was living in anincredibly misogynistic time.
So we'll talk about misogyny, Ithink, later, because it's like

(07:31):
a New Jerk reaction.
It's a word that makes peoplego.
And there's a reason I think itmakes people go.

Lisa Danylchuk (07:36):
Love that face for folks listening.

Christine Forner (07:38):
It's a very specific face.
It's a very discombobulatedface.
But it's it's like a gut punchof a word, and there's a reason
I think why it's such a bigword.
But he was living in a timewhere he went off by himself and
he did this thing by himself,closing his eyes and paying
attention to himself.

(07:58):
But when you really look at thescience of what mindfulness
does and how it works, it'sintensely relational.
Everything about it isregulatory, which then makes me
wonder how did we evolve suchprofound capacity to be able to

(08:22):
have physiological awareness,give our bodies the right word,
the right meaning in the rightcontext?
Why are we a creature whosebase setting is of comfort,
safety, and security?
It doesn't mesh with what'sgoing on, and it didn't mesh
with what Buddha was talkingabout, but it did make me think,

(08:43):
in my experience, mindfulnessor that altered state of
meditative awareness andpresence is more likely probably
the language of the Homo sapienmother.

Lisa Danylchuk (08:53):
Okay.

Christine Forner (08:54):
And so a lot of times when I show up in a
mindful state with my clients,that in itself starts a cascade
of responses inside anotherperson.
So people who have neverexperienced or experienced
safety, other human beings whoare present and attuned and

(09:14):
aware and empathic, if this isan ancient way that we used to
be, if this is something that weevolved as much as the
chameleon evolved camouflage,it's a powerful thing that
bodies can decipher, even if themind cannot.

(09:35):
So a lot of times, if I'm in amindful state or I'm in a
secureful state, things aregoing to start happening because
all the things that aredissociated are things that are
seeking, needing, desiring,craving care.
And it's innate.

Lisa Danylchuk (09:54):
Yeah.

Christine Forner (09:55):
So just being in a room with another human
being where my body and my mindis fully capable of assisting
you with things that you do notknow how to regulate, you do not
know how to soothe, you do notknow how to comprehend.
I know there's silly the cat.

Lisa Danylchuk (10:09):
There's a kitty for those of you on video, you
get to see.

Christine Forner (10:12):
There's a kitty.
Watch on YouTube.
Sometimes just being in thepresence, it's like dissociation
goes, hey, I don't need to behere anymore.
There's someone here who canhelp.
And many of the things that aredysregulated start to pop up.
So even being with someone whohas DID, the presence of being
with someone who's secureful isintervention enough.

Lisa Danylchuk (10:35):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, totally.
Because there's someone,especially if there's the
specific lack of nurturing froma mother, mother figure
caregiver that had thatempathic, nurturing, present,
attentive, non-judgmental angle,presence, right?
If that hasn't been there, it'slike a drink of water when you

(10:56):
haven't had a drink of water.

Christine Forner (10:58):
Yeah.

Lisa Danylchuk (10:58):
Yeah.

Christine Forner (10:59):
We also got to be careful.

Lisa Danylchuk (11:00):
Sorry, Kat, you were gonna say something.
I was gonna ask you aboutrenurturing.
But before we talk aboutrenurturing, okay.
Can you tell you're talkingabout care?
Can you tell us the story abouthow care is not the bucket?
What does that mean?
Tell us that story.

Christine Forner (11:17):
I wrote actually a paper called Cares
Are Not the Bucket.
And this leads to therenurturing syndrome that I've
been working on.
So my son, I see my kids, Idon't know, they were all really
quite young.
I think my daughter was aboutone and one and a half.
So Zach would have been three,three and a half, John would

(11:38):
have been five or six, and theyall had the stomach flu.
And it's a weekend, I was bymyself, and John was able to use
the puke bucket, the throw-upbucket.
And Jill was able to, I wasable to catch, but Zach, when he
got sick, I gave him the bucketand he he first threw up in the

(12:01):
bucket.
And then he started like he'dhave to throw up again, and I'd
bring him the bucket and he'dpush the bucket away.
Cause he made the associationthat it was the bucket making
him throw up, not a virus in histummy.
So he would like throw it awayand throw up on the floor and
throw it away.
And I kept going, the bucket isnot the thing that's getting
you sick.

(12:21):
Yeah.
It's something else entirely.

Lisa Danylchuk (12:24):
Yeah.

Christine Forner (12:25):
And really honestly, that the notion of
carers are not the bucket, Ithink is one of the greatest
ailments of our world and hasbeen this way for about 10,000
years.

Lisa Danylchuk (12:41):
And I just want to make the connection between
what we were just talking about,because if someone has been
through really awful, horriblethings, unspeakable horrors, and
they're coping with thatinternally through some sort of
dissociative process ormechanism, and care shows up,
and care in and of itself ismedicinal, let's say, is what

(13:06):
they is what their system, theirbody, their humanness needs.
They might start to feel all ofthe really horrific things that
have been held in thebackground because there was no
support or care or safe place totake them.
And now all of a sudden thereis this somewhat safe-ish place
to maybe take them.
And so memories or parts orfragmented uh somatic

(13:29):
experiences might start showingup.
And then someone might feellike, wow, I'm going to therapy
and I feel worse.
And this is part of the reason,right?
And it can be, right?
There's so many infinitepossibilities in psychotherapy,
but this is it happens enoughthat it's like this fits and
makes a lot of sense.

(13:50):
And so recognizing the careisn't causing that, the harm to
cause that.
Yes.
Care re-evokes it for healing,ideally, if we can recognize
that that's what's happening.

Christine Forner (14:04):
Yes.
I think it's really importantto understand that healing looks
and there's a there's a it'sdemonstrative, right?
When we're little babies, whensomething goes wrong, we are
instinctually and innatelydesigned to express our
discomfort, to dis express ourneeds.

(14:27):
It's the very first language wehave, way before thoughts come
in, way before words come in,this need to express our
discomfort.
And when people start to becomeless dissociated, the need to
express the pain and sufferingthat got you into that
dissociative place in the firstplace has to come out.
And the primal first languagethat we have is feelings, which

(14:54):
is a little different thanemotions, but these are feelings
that that are anesthetized,feelings that are um sort of put
away into a junk drawer, so tospeak.
They're things that get putaway because if we were to feel
them and experience them in thatmoment, there is a very high

(15:15):
chance that those feelings andexperiences would end our lives.
So dissociation, when we firststart to do it, is very
life-preserving.
But coming out of it is reallyhard because dissociation comes
on the heels of inflammation,right?
When we are in a state ofdistress, when human beings go
into an emergency cascaderesponse, the whole entire, it's

(15:37):
not just the central nervoussystem, it's also the fascia.
Every part of the body lightsup like a live wire, like a
Christmas tree.
And then the younger we are,the more this does this, the
more painful it is.
Myelination is something thathappens over time.
It doesn't like infants aren'treally born with that plastic
coating around our nerves.
It's pretty raw and it's prettypainful.

(15:59):
I know it's painful for a fact.
And the chemistry that'sinvolved in emergency cascade
responses are intense and ithurts for us to go into an
emergency response.
And dissociation is the grandpuba of emergency responses.
And so coming out of it, ithurts.
I think a really good analogythat I think like most people

(16:23):
really can comprehend whatrefeeding syndrome is.

Lisa Danylchuk (16:26):
Yeah.
Can you explain that forsomeone who hasn't heard of it?

Christine Forner (16:29):
Okay, so we really sort of discovered
refeeding syndrome after WorldWar II, when people went in and
found a lot of people who werestarving and they gave them a
bunch of food.
And the starving people startedeating the food as much as they
wanted to eat the food, and thebodies basically couldn't
tolerate it, and many peopleactually died.

(16:49):
And it didn't make any sense topeople.
These people are starving.
Why is food killing them?
And in understanding how itworks, when a human body has
been starved for a significantperiod of time, it changes
everything.
It changes how the endocrinesystem works, how the lymphatic
system works, how the gut works,how the cells are bringing in

(17:10):
nutrition.
So it's when we're really,really starving, we can take a
little bit of food and make itseem much bigger than it is.
So when we actually go to eatproperly, it's almost like food
poisons us because there's it'sthe just the way that the body
has adapted to starvation.
And I think nurturing is thesame thing.

(17:30):
When we don't have enoughnurturing, we adapt to it and we
can bring in little bits andpieces.
But when we actually getfull-blown nurturing, it is
incredibly overwhelming, it'sincredibly frightening, it's
discombobulating.
The mind might not be ready todigest what happened.
The body is trying to writeitself and it's all you know,

(17:53):
dealing with in many, manycases, decades of survival.

Lisa Danylchuk (17:58):
Yeah.

Christine Forner (17:59):
So the people aren't in more pain.
They're not in more suffering,they're more aware of their pain
and they're more aware of theirsuffering.
Because awareness is actuallyone of the things that
stabilizes us as a species.

Lisa Danylchuk (18:14):
And this is why people will say things, and
clients have said things to melike, Oh, I was afraid you were
gonna be really compassionateabout that.
Like, oh, there's that faceagain, that nice face.
Yeah, I saw like cover my face.

Christine Forner (18:28):
Right?
I now actually introduce what Ido is therapeutic nurturing,
not just securefulness.
And I explain at the beginning,you have needs.
You have needs that never thateither maybe never have been met
or been met sporadically, orneeds that have been
manipulated, needs that havebeen excavated and mined and

(18:50):
like created.
And me bringing this to you isvery much like trying, we're
gonna we're gonna try and refeedyou, and it's gonna take some
time for your body and your mindto be able to bring it in,
process and digest what we'redoing.
And just I think it's so itexplaining this to people, I

(19:15):
think it gets really confusingbecause we're so educated and
indoctrinated in many ways, thatthe mind is the grand poopah,
that if the mind understandsthat if you have your memories
back, all is tickety-boo.
And I the way that I see thatis that like when we get hungry,

(19:37):
if you've been fed well, youknow what those hunger cues are,
and your mind is going to startto go, mmm, I think I want a
salad right now, or I think Iwant a piece of protein, or I
think that I want some water.
Because the mind has learnedhow to interpret, label, give
language and meaning to the cuesthat are coming from the body.

(19:59):
And the body is sending, hey,we're a little low on iron down
here, we're a little low onprotein down here, and so the
mind is gonna go, I'm cravingprotein.
The thought is not thesandwich, the thought is the
mechanism that makes you go getthe sandwich.

(20:19):
The sandwich is actually thefood and nurturing.
This isn't about thinking aboutwhat happened to you.
This isn't about remembering,it's actually trying to help the
person figure out what is thebody communicating and how do we
give that nurturing that thebody is craving.
That's the sandwich.

(20:40):
Presence is a great big buffetmeal of nurturing.
Awareness is part of the buffetof nurturing.
Rocking, even in the EMDR, isyou know, the salad part of the
buffet.
The stopping and the pausingand the breathing and going into

(21:01):
our bodies, that's all part ofthe sandwich.
And it's not something that istaught in schools, and it's
there's a great big art to it.
And that's why I thinksecurefulness is so important on
the role of the therapist.
Because when I'm in session, Iam very grounded, I am very

(21:22):
regulated, I'm capable of payingattention to somebody, and I'm
watching their subtle movements,but also like breath and what
their eyes are doing, as well astapping into my intuition,
which comes from a differentplace than my thinking.

Lisa Danylchuk (21:39):
Yeah.

Christine Forner (21:40):
And when I'm in this state of securefulness,
I am able to pick up an awfullot of things.
And then I will I'll gather ahypothesis of what I suspect is
happening to that human being,and then I start to test that
hypothesis.
I've just noticed that likeyour shoulders shifted a little
bit.
Are you starting to notice alittle bit of discomfort inside?

(22:01):
Right.
And then we start to moveforward.
Like, what type of discomfortis it?
Does it feel like like um amild, there might be a problem
happening, or does it feel likea great big danger signal?
Like, is your body actuallygiving a danger signal?
Okay, what type of danger?
Does it feel like impendingdoom?

(22:22):
Does it feel like an attack?
Does it feel like annihilation?
Does it feel like anexistential, like something that
has to do with existence andexistential?
Does it feel like you'redrowning?
Does it feel like you're you'retrapped?
All of those things give me aboatload of data of what the
body is talking about.

Lisa Danylchuk (22:44):
I have so many thoughts.
Like when you talk about seeingshoulder shift, for example, I
just think about how what wewere talking about with
refeeding and renurturing is soimportant, that slow pace to it,
because even something likethat can bring up a wall.
Like, oh, don't like it's notsafe for me to be seen.

(23:05):
It's not safe my shouldersmoving to be seen.
And so what are you talkingabout?
I don't like this.
Bye.
Right?
Or or or something more subtleor something even more.

Christine Forner (23:16):
But even that is fantastic, right?
So if they say, right, if theynotice that I'm watching them,
and a lot, it disturbs an awfullot of the people that I see,
especially people who have hadexperiences with psychopathy or
with being preyed upon asinfants, children, or any time
during your life, because theonly people who are really
paying attention this way tendto be perpetrators, right?

(23:40):
So there's a recognition thatmy close examination might feel
threatening, right?

Lisa Danylchuk (23:46):
It's not loving close examination of a mother
adoring their child, but or acaregiver and adoring their
child, it's someone looking toharm.

Christine Forner (23:56):
Right.
And that gives me an excellentopportunity to go, oh, did that
bother you by me noticing?
And 99% of the time, peoplewill say, Yeah, it did.
And I'm like, wonderful.
Let's take care of this righthere, right now.
Do you have a pillow?
Do you have a blanket?

(24:16):
Do you have a hoodie?
Let's protect your body, let'sput on sunglasses, let's protect
your body, and so that you canhave a moment where you can
have, you know, and we'll dothese little experiments.
So they put on a hoodie or theyput a pillow and we'll stop and
pause and say, Does this makeyou feel better, same, or worse?
If it makes them feel better,then we have just addressed a

(24:40):
problem in a nurturing kind ofway.
We are coming in and protectingrather than forcing.

Lisa Danylchuk (24:46):
Yep.

Christine Forner (24:47):
And so it just intensely in the moment and
organic.
I have no idea what's going tohappen next in a session.
I have no idea what we're goingto talk about.
I don't read my notes becauseit has to be in the moment.
I trust the human bodyimplicitly.

(25:08):
Because, in my experience, thehuman body is objective, the
mind is incredibly subjective.
Don't really trust people'sthoughts until they're embodied.
Because thoughts are reallygood at distracting us, moving
us away.
And if we've been raised inless secureful homes, often the

(25:30):
words that are in our minds thatget attached to these feelings
is the language of people whoare neglecting us or harming us.
That's just how the human bodyworks, right?
When we're little, we throughosmosis learn language that goes
with banana and toast and chairand standing and walking.
And when you are beingneglected, the language that

(25:54):
you're going to hear is there'ssomething wrong with you one way
or another.
And every time that experienceof neglect pops up or that
warning signal that we're aboutto be abandoned, the language is
going to be, I'm wrong, I'mbad, I'm no good.
Right.
The only place those wordscould have ever come from is the
environment, not internally.

Lisa Danylchuk (26:14):
And it's so interesting to me because I feel
like there are plenty of folkswho are like, Oh, I didn't have
a bad childhood, but I have thisreally intense inner critic.
And when you fold in neglectand you fold in even just the
way our culture is set up, likecongratulations on your new
baby.
Here's eight days maternityleave.
I'm exaggerating a little bit,but not that much.

(26:35):
You know, even if it's likehere's a year, and then say bye
to your parents for the rest ofyour childhood.
Like it just isn't our culturein the US and in so many places
in the world isn't set up forfamilies to stay together.
And sometimes there are activepolitical decisions that are
made that separate families withno sense of humanity or

(26:58):
awareness of how harmful thatcan be in the short term and in
the long term.
So just highlighting that pieceof folks go, oh, everyone has
an inner critic.
Yes, and like shouldn't.
Yeah.
I went on a podcast and CarrieJacobs asked me, like, what
would you call, how would yourebrand the inner critic?

(27:20):
And I said, inner celebrant,like, what if we had an inner
celebrant that was like, youknow, you really did your best
right there?
Hey, good job.
Hey, at the end of the day, youaccomplished a few things.
Like, we don't have that.
And there's the other angle ofour brains are built for problem
solving and we're gonna betrying to solve problems all the
time.
But that's different thanidentity, which is it's talking

(27:41):
about.
Is it well like getting food,getting water?
Sure.
Building, you know, homesstructures.

Christine Forner (27:49):
Sure, right?
I think I think another way wecould actually look at that is
that our minds are built forcomfort or for collaboration.

Lisa Danylchuk (27:58):
It's under 100% usually do those things alone.

Christine Forner (28:02):
We can't, right?
So here's a little sidebar, butit sort of brings us back to
the same thing.

Lisa Danylchuk (28:07):
So another sidebar from there once we get
there.

Christine Forner (28:10):
Okay, all the sidebars.
So I've been working on my nextbook, and I started going down
a research hole of a researchinvestigation of where did
theory of mind come from?
So, theory of mind is one ofthose things that is considered
uniquely human, that I have thecapacity to comprehend that you,

(28:32):
a person who is entirelydifferent, have a mind that's
doing its mind things, and thatmy theory that you have a mind
in what your mind is thinking islike part of the grand,
wonderful human being mind thatmakes us more superior than
other things.
But that's actually not true.
Theory of mind, theevolutionary roots of theory of

(28:53):
mind come from primates.
So primates are the species, soyou have hominids, humans,
hominids, then you have thegreat apes, and then you have
the primates.
So primates are probably like10, 10 to 15 million years ago.
So that's a long, long, long,long, long, long time ago.
And theory of mind originatedin when there was a predator

(29:16):
attack, some of the babies wouldgo into tonic immobility.
And the way that the mothersgot the babies out of tonic
immobility was to look at themin the eyes and soothe them.
So theory of mind started,became a bit more advanced.
Probably touch happened withthe great apes to add into
theory of mind.

(29:36):
But human beings took this uhsoothing, nurturing uh ability
and like amplified it by amillion.
Theory of mind is entirelyregulatory, its whole purpose is
to calm and soothe otherpeople.

(29:59):
It's not about this cunningintellectualism.
It is about making sure that Iknow that you are okay and you
know that I am okay.
We take a look at theconnection.
It's connection.
You take a look at all thethings that make us unique.
They all have co-regulation incommon.

(30:21):
Language, right?
We're talking, and language isdesigned so that I can
understand you and you canunderstand me.
Part of regulation.
Everything that we do is abouta bizarre level of comfort,
safety, and security.
Because human beings, as far asI can tell, we're the only ones

(30:43):
that sort of did something tostep out of the natural world of
going in and out of cascadeemergency responses.
So all animals can go in andout of them naturally.
They go into stress responsesand they come out of it and
they're okay.
We're not, and we can't.
All right.
So the mind and the way thatour minds is really about is I

(31:07):
think problem solving is one wayof saying it, but I think
another way of saving it iscomfort finding, safety finding,
and secure finding.
And we don't learn this inpsychology or social work.
There's not like we don't wedon't talk about the fact that
we're because of the way thatour world is, because it's so

(31:29):
malnurtured that many people goas odd as we would if we were
experiencing malnutrition.

Lisa Danylchuk (31:40):
Yeah.

Christine Forner (31:41):
Yeah.
Okay, that was my sidebar.

Lisa Danylchuk (31:44):
My sidebar connects to your sidebar.
My sidebar is just about I wasthinking about maladaptive
daydreaming as you were talkingand loneliness and people
looking for connection in allkinds of different places, and
that even eventually manifestingas something really serious, or
uh things that start to impactnot just mental health but
physical health.

(32:05):
And so thinking aboutmaladaptive daydreaming, where
you know people create entireelaborate worlds internally and
go live in them.
And usually there's someelement of safety or connection
or recognition being seen, beingpraised, like, oh, in my
maladaptive daydream, I'm a rockstar and I travel the world and

(32:26):
I get applause, right?
And they so it's so interestingwhether it's a fantasy or a
daydream or what we would call amaladaptive day daydream, where
we're really like living in adifferent world internally for
long periods of time.
There's usually a need there.
There's usually a veryunderstandable social need to be

(32:46):
seen, soothed, secure,celebrated, right?
All of these things that justhuman beings need as children,
as babies, as children, asadults throughout life, right?
And so I know you and I bothlook at pretty much anything
that shows up in the office aslike, how is this working for
you?
What need is this trying tofulfill?

(33:08):
Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
What's the function here?
And it's so everything you'resaying just fits with so many
other things.

Christine Forner (33:17):
It really does.
What has been driving me overthe last like five years?
It really started during COVIDand being in my house.
And I'm like, why?
Why is it that we are incapableof meeting our needs?
Why is it that we cannotcomprehend that we have this
very powerful drive to be safeand to be secure, except none of

(33:43):
us are.
Even if you are a very wealthyhuman being, you're still going
around acting like a human beingwho is starving, greedy,
emergent, not empathetic.
Right?
A lot of people think thatmorality and empathy is

(34:04):
something that that is taughtthrough either higher education
or religious institutions.
We're born with it.
It's a neat part of us, and theonly way it won't work the way
it should is when we're scared.
If we're not scared, it worksthe way it should work.

(34:25):
So when we become frightened,when we go into an emergency
cascade response, and I don'tthink even people realize that
infants and children go intothese responses super quick
fast.
Right.
So we're talking about neglect.
But I think a better way todescribe it is um isolation

(34:45):
threat.
That the Homo sapien, weexperience the threat when we a
life threat when we're isolated,particularly as infants and
particularly as small children.
And in my experience, you know,this is the 40th year that I've
been involved in thisprofession in one way or
another.
I have been listening topeople's secret, tortured,

(35:08):
shame-filled lives for 40 yearsnow.
And the one thing thateverybody has in common is an
experience of primal isolationthreat in childhood and infancy,
or early, like even if you havea secure attachment at home,
you still have to leave thathome in kindergarten and go out

(35:31):
into a world that is full ofpeople who are experiencing this
fear or this response thatcomes from this primal isolation
threat.
And to me, primal isolationthreat is the beginning of shame
language.

Lisa Danylchuk (35:50):
Yeah.

Christine Forner (35:51):
It's a feeling that we have that doesn't get
labeled, that nobody reallytalks about, that isn't really
seen.
Like you're talking aboutmaternity leave that's eight
days long.
The female or the not thefemale, the Homo sapien body at
birth does not comprehend thingsthat aren't safe and secure.
And in a world that is veryphobic of nurturing, in a world

(36:16):
that is very violent towardsnurturing, that's that
renurturing syndrome, I dobelieve.
We all experience it in one wayor another.
And it's it's kind of trickywhen you're working with someone
to try and help them seesomething that they themselves
had to label when they werechildren.

Lisa Danylchuk (36:35):
Yeah.

Christine Forner (36:41):
Pick me up.
Well, it's the average, right?
Mummy up, baby down, I'm bad,I'm wrong.
In my experience, most shamelanguage is two or three words.
And I do believe that's becausechildren and and toddlers are
trying to label something thatthey don't have words for,

(37:02):
right?
I am bad is very it could alsobe, I feel really bad right now
because I'm not being picked up.
I feel really bad right nowbecause mom and dad are so busy
they don't see me.
I feel really bad right nowbecause I just got yelled at
because, you know, I spilledsome milk or I'm having a temper
tantrum.
Infants and children can't talkthat way.
And if it doesn't get changed,it sticks.

Lisa Danylchuk (37:23):
Yeah.
You brought up the larger scalerenurturing syndrome.
So I think this is a good timeto ask how do you define
patriarchy?

Christine Forner (37:34):
Let me do misogyny first, because I think
misogyny comes beforepatriarchy.
Okay.
I define misogyny not as thehatred of women.
I think that that's the wayit's seen right now, but the
hatred that women experience isalso the same hatred that
children and infants experience.
And that that is everybodywho's born.

(37:55):
But I really define misogyny asa intense disdain for Homo
sapien nurturing.
And I don't mean when I talkabout nurturing, I'm not talking
about cooking and cleaning.
Cooking and cleaning can benurturing, it also can be not
nurturing.
I'm not talking aboutservitude.
I'm not talking about thingsthat are happening in sort of

(38:16):
inside a home.
I'm talking about the narrowbiological branches of a
structural, evolved way that aHomo sapien manages itself.
And it is regulatory in nature,going in and making sure that
our bodies have what they needfor homeostasis.

(38:37):
To me, that's nurturing.
And there is a huge disdain forit.
And it is like so odd.
Is it like even if you takesomething as weird as like
feeding people and making surethat people have clothes?
And there are people who go offand go, it's not my business to
feed other people.
And I'm like, Well, yeah, itactually is.

(38:58):
Like it's all of our business.
And the amount of money that wespend from people not getting
nurtured is mind-bogglinglyhuge.
And the amount of money that itwould cost to make sure that
everybody is fed well, educatedwell, that everybody is
supported, it's a it's aneconomic gold mine.

(39:20):
But the powers that be don'tunderstand that and don't see
that.
So I really define misogyny asthe disdain of Homo sapien
nurturing that then leads topatriarchy.
And to me, patriarchy isn't asystem ruled by men, it is a
system ruled by particular typeof people.
And those people tend to bequite psychopathic or

(39:44):
psychopathic adjacent.
Another word for it isantisocial.

Lisa Danylchuk (39:48):
Yeah.

Christine Forner (39:49):
Another word for it is human beings whose
bodies go into a fight cascaderesponse.
And do you ever notice we talkabout fight, flight, and freeze,
but we never actually talkabout fight.
We talk about flea.
So PTSD is sort of the fleaspar parts of things.
When we talk aboutdissociation, but we don't

(40:11):
classify human violence as amental illness and or a trauma
response for that matter.
It's massively a traumaresponse.
It's a huge end.
It is um it does tend to beinfluenced by gender.
Men tend to be, and it has todo sort of, I think, resources

(40:31):
and stuff.
Like when we're infants andchildren, we don't have any
bodily resources.
The only thing we got is todissociate.
So primal isolation anguish orprimal isolation threat, because
it I think it's so profoundlyphysiologically painful and
psychologically painful.
Dissociation is the only thingthat is available to anesthetize

(40:52):
and separate the body and themind from the pain.
But as time grows, there arecertain people who have their
resources fight where otherpeople might resource fawn,
where other people mightresource flee.
Everyone else, all the otheremergency cascade responses get
seen as weird except for fight.
And fight is the weirdest onebecause it is the most inhumane,

(41:16):
it is the most antisocial, itis the cruelest.
And something happened like12,000 years ago.
For the longest time, Iwondered if it was the invention
of sort of alcohol or viruses,but I actually think it was
something it was called theyounger dryest event.
It was a major catastrophicevent.

(41:39):
So they don't know if it waslike the volcanoes all went off
at the same time or if there wasan asteroid, lots of asteroids
that hit, but there was asudden, um, a very quick, very
sudden sort of mini ice ageevent and a flooding event that
flooded a lot of areas that hada lot of people in it.
So the Mesopotamia area, allsort of where the Sahara Desert

(42:02):
is, but also it was in NorthAmerica as well.
So a lot of the cultures thatbecame like super violent, the
ones that used human sacrifices,the ones that started wars, the
one that started all thosethings, all of those seem to be
heavily influenced by thisyounger dryas event.
So if we were born and raisedfor comfort, if we evolved for
comfort, and fire is areasonable explanation of how we

(42:25):
actually ended up like this,being in a place where we are so
designed for comfort andsecurity, and everything that
makes us us is about comfort andsecurity.
When it's absent, we becomescared.
And as a species, we don't knowhow to get out of it on our
own.
So humans start to go intocascade responses.

(42:47):
And I think it was somethingthe the younger dryas event, I
think, happened over severalhundred years, where there all
of a sudden there became a lotof starvation, there became a
lot of like inability to sootheour offspring.
And then you've got peoplebeing born in an enormous amount
of distress.
And um, we do know that thereis uh male infants have a

(43:10):
vulnerability that femaleinfants don't, but doesn't not
on the same level.
And that vulnerability impactsthe brain structures that are
responsible for self-regulation.
So you have babies who havebasically brain damage where
they can't self-regulate, theystill need to be regulated, they
can't get regulated becauseempathy is something that

(43:30):
requires that is how weregulate.
Attunement is something how weregulate, interoception.
So the ability to know what'sgoing on inside of our bodies is
how we regulate.
And when we are in a fightresponse or we're born without
these brain structures, youcannot calm down.
And the only way to exist is tosort of keep yourself deep,
deep, deep in the land of fight.

(43:51):
Because that's when endogenousopioids are going to be
secreted, that's when the cutofffrom brain and mind is gonna
happen, that's when you don'treally feel anything, even
though the body is responding.
And one of the ways to maintaina place like that is to be
cruel.

Lisa Danylchuk (44:07):
Yeah.

Christine Forner (44:08):
Cruel is like self-harm on steroids.
And to me, is how psychopathystarted, and then these people
sort of took over the world.
So I see that as patriarchy.

Lisa Danylchuk (44:21):
So you're really seeing uh something that
happened a very long time agoleading to trauma responses that
lead to a shift in the species.
So, in your view, humans areinnately wired for comfort,
connection, and care.

(44:41):
Yes.
And when things go haywire andthere's that cascade of defense
responses or protection ortrauma responses, we can, we
know this as trauma therapists,we can get stuck in those.
Yeah.
Also, you're saying alonger-term evolution of the
fight response going awry, or ofa lack of ability to

(45:04):
self-soothe or heal in responseto whatever trauma occurred, and
that leads to people harmingeach other.
So, in your mind, that's nothuman nature, yes, Homo sapien
nature to harm each other.
Yeah.

Christine Forner (45:21):
My greatest evidence to that if it was, if
this was our normal, we wouldn'tbe bothered.

Lisa Danylchuk (45:30):
We wouldn't be bothered by it at all.
Also, the movie Love actuallywouldn't exist.
Wouldn't be so popular.

Christine Forner (45:40):
Lots of things wouldn't be so popular, horror
movies wouldn't exist, warswouldn't exist, um, greed
wouldn't exist.
And you know, a lot of peopleblame agriculture for the
beginning of misogyny andpatriarchy, and it's like, oh,
all of a sudden I have land thatis mine, and I'm like, people
don't understand how weird notsharing is for our species.

(46:07):
But in a world that is, we'reall taught to be superphobic of
nurturing, especially to thedegree that we're supposed to
be.
Right.
So we're supposed to be we'rean alloparenting species,
meaning that there's supposed tobe like five or six people
taking care of one human infant.
So we spent probably 290,000years, if not more.

(46:31):
Like a lot of people thinkabout how we were like 100,000
years ago, 200,000 years ago,that we were like food insecure
and only living 30 years, andeverything was rough and it was
brutal.
And it's like, well, if thatwas the case, language would not
have evolved, theory of mindwould not have evolved, empathy
would not have evolved.
All of these things could onlyhave evolved with safety and

(46:54):
security because that's how theywork.
So 100,000 years ago, we wereprobably in groups of 150
people.
Not everybody was havingbabies.
Those who really wanted to havebabies were having babies, and
those who were like wanted to beclose to babies but not have
babies were helping.
And then there were otherpeople who were just doing their
other things, helping.
Everybody made the Homo sapienhuman infant the center of our

(47:20):
existence.
And the mother, because she isso required for so long to give
all of her resources to heroffspring, like we're talking
three to five years.
That's a really long time.
That's a lifespan for someanimals.
That Homo sapien mother alsorequires the Homo sapien father.

(47:43):
So there are some evidence likewhy we have menopause and that
kind of stuff, and that womenwere taking care of the
children, but that's not how itis.
If that was the case, thenthere wouldn't be any studies
that showed that when fathersare involved, the baby is
healthier, the mother ishealthier, and the father is
healthier.
There's a boatload of sciencethat shows that when a dad is

(48:03):
very intimately involved in therearing of his offspring, things
like his oxytocin changes,things like his brain structures
change.
It just boatload healthier foreverybody.
So dads were involved in all ofthis.
And we did have lots of food,and we did have lots of safe
shelter.
We've been building houses forat least 500,000 years.

(48:25):
That's probably longer thanwe've been here.
There's some evidence becausethey found like a house a long
time ago.
It was like Lincoln logs.
And if this was our normal, wewouldn't have the deleterious
effects that we have when humanbeings dissociate, when human
beings are in emergency cascaderesponses.

(48:45):
We wouldn't have brainstructures that are there that
work when we're safe and secure,that don't work when we're not
safe and secure.
Where did like like it's justto me, it's so obvious that
we're all living in just thisself-fueling perpetual trauma

(49:06):
cycle, and that we need to getout of it.
And for us to be okay, we needto get out of it.

Lisa Danylchuk (49:11):
And so, how do you see us getting out of it,
even if it's best case scenarioor there's no parts showing up
that you're not seeing happeningin the world today?
I think it's actually alreadyhappening.

Christine Forner (49:26):
I think we're actually coming out of it, and I
do think that this is thiscould be the patriarchal death
twitch.
So if we change the languagefrom patriarchy to psychopathy,
a group of human beings who areviolently opposed to safety,
like to human nurturing, thatwhen they experience it, it

(49:49):
makes them lose their mind andbecome violent.
We're starting to already seethis.
We're already starting to seethat the systems that we trusted
so very long have likely beenlying to us the whole time.
That um that there's not a lotof logic in capitalism.

(50:11):
When you talk about socialism,people freak out because it has
been falsely used for many, manyyears.
It's like gaslighting us orgrooming us, like we've been
groomed by political partiessaying, I'm gonna take care of
you, I'm gonna, I'm gonna helpyou, but really the whole
intention is to lie, cheat, andsteal.

(50:33):
We're starting to see that thishappens, and we're starting to
go, wait a minute, there'ssomething really wrong with
this.
But you're also starting to seethings like maternity leave,
but also parental leave ischanging in a lot of other
countries.
You're starting to see onsocial media people going, this

(50:54):
isn't okay anymore.
You're starting to see thingslike the 4B movement, which came
out of Korea, which basicallyis women saying, We're no longer
gonna, we're not gonna engagein dating and having children if
violence is around, right?
You're starting to see, andthat sort of swept through North
America and it's sort of it'seven going down into South

(51:15):
America and Europe, women arestarting to say, mm-mm, we're
not participating in thisviolence anymore.
We demand to be treated withsafety and security.
We're starting to haveconversations.
I think the trauma field is oneof the most brilliant things in
the world.
We're starting to comprehendwhat fear actually does to us
and how deleterious anddetrimental it is to us.

(51:37):
So it's already starting tochange.
Best case scenario, governmentsstarted coming in and go, okay,
actually, we're gonna take ourmoney.
You know what would be reallygood?
It would be really good if allthe world leaders went together
and went, hmm, let's just erasedebt.
It doesn't exist anymore.
Because like, and everybodywould be like and freaking out,
but it doesn't exist anyway.

(51:59):
So, like, you know, if you allgot together and just said,
poof, it doesn't exist, nobodyhas debt.
Imagine what that would do tothe whole world, just sort of
instantly being able to take abreath.
I think we have to study moreof what psychopathy actually is.
We actually should put all ofour money towards understanding

(52:19):
that.
Because a vast majority ofpeople, if they had a safe place
to live, if they had enoughfood, if they could just, you
know, work enough that that wastolerable and manageable,
because people want to work,people want to do things, people
have interests.
Most people wouldn't have,like, I think addictions would
go away.
We know this actually for afact.

(52:40):
There's been lots of studies onuniversal-based income, and
almost immediately every time acommunity starts to get
universal-based income,addictions go down, criminality
goes down, education starts torise, arts and cultures start to
rise, people start to eatbetter, they become more
physically healthy, just likealmost instantly things change

(53:02):
for the better.
If we were to do, if we're justto understand that there's only
a small group of people whodislike social care.
And we need to study them andwe need to start giving
everybody else safety andsecurity.
That's my dream.

Lisa Danylchuk (53:22):
Yeah.

Christine Forner (53:23):
And then we have to do some trauma work
because everybody's beentraumatized by the last 10,000
years of being stuck as aspecies in a trauma response.

Lisa Danylchuk (53:33):
Yeah.
I love hearing from you becausethere's so much that I think
you're questioning and wonderingabout and digging into
anthropology and trying to findtheories and explanations that I
think most people are justaccepting as this is how it is,

(53:55):
and saying, Well, I'm seeingviolence, that must mean humans
are violent.
Well, I'm experiencing thisharm, that's that must mean it's
not safe, or it's not normalfor me or for humans to be safe.
And and I love that you digthings up and look at things
differently.
And also you're seeing thingsthat are in line with, as you

(54:18):
said, it's already happeningthat people are saying, hey,
violence isn't okay.
I'm not going to accept that.
Hey, this type of behavior andexploitation isn't okay, and
we're not going to accept that.
And so I'm with you and reallyhoping that we're in a turn of
events where there's more carecoming to the forefront, where

(54:40):
care is valued, where nurturingis valued, where you know a
postpartum parent doesn't haveto decide between feeding their
child and being with their childeconomically speaking, and they
don't have to leave their childin order to meet their basic
needs.
Uh, I think there's so muchthat could shift in a positive

(55:03):
way if we start looking throughsome of the lenses you've
presented here today.
So I'm wondering what gives youhope in that turn of events, in
that uh, oh, it gives you hopefor humanity today.

Christine Forner (55:17):
Honestly, like I I see hope everywhere.
Right?
Like, even like a simpleflipping through TikTok.
I actually really do likeTikTok.
I love TikTok.
One of the things that I likeabout TikTok is you'll see
someone who is like, you know, aperson in their house putting
pieces together, going, wait aminute, this is so strange.

(55:40):
It gives me hope that, youknow, one of the things, there's
people who are examining theeconomics, people who are
examining racism, people who areexamining colonialism.
And in my experience, it allcomes from being malnurtured.
Like for us being arelationally starved species,

(56:01):
all of the violence comes as asecondary response to us not
having our basic primary needs.
What gives me hope is that Ican talk about this stuff and
that I'm not looked gettinglooked at anymore, like people
are actually asking me to speakpublicly, that I've been asked
to write a book about this, thatin my practice, I've started to

(56:25):
exclusively do therapeuticnurturing.
It is heavily influenced bymindfulness and sensory motor
psychotherapy and even hypnosisand the therapeutic relationship
and all those things.
But I'm seeing things in myoffice where my clients very
quickly, if they show up andthey're they're meeting me for

(56:46):
the first time or at thebeginning of our sessions, and
they've had lots of suicidalideation, with with doing
therapeutic nurturing, within amatter of weeks, it stops.
I'm super hopeful that I'mgonna have a billion dollars and
be able to run a nurturing lab.
Oh my god, that one gets mevery excited.

(57:08):
Yes.
Because this stuff, I think, ifwe started testing it, if we
started actually trying to like,like I I beg someone to prove
me wrong.
Prove me wrong that safety andsecurity isn't our base setting.
Prove me wrong that nurturingis not designed for us in the
way that I am describingnurturing.

(57:29):
I have a really hard timebelieving that it is that it
would be disproved just becausethere's mountains of science
that are supporting what I'msaying, and it's just I just
happen to be a person who'spulling all of this together
that that I've always been ableto see the big picture, and that

(57:50):
gives me hope.
Yeah, lots of hope.
Yeah, my daughter gives mehope.
Yes.
She has a sense of self that Idid not have at her age.

Lisa Danylchuk (58:00):
Yeah.

Christine Forner (58:00):
My sons give me hope.
They have a a tenderness tothem that is magnificent.

Lisa Danylchuk (58:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you're gonna be doing morespeaking about this.
I know you run consultationgroups.
How can people get in touchwith you?

Christine Forner (58:19):
If you go to Christineforner.com, I have a I
have actually have a coursecoming up next week.
I have a course coming up inDecember and one in January, and
I'll probably run anothercourse in February, March, and
April.
They're a mixture ofdissociation 101, dissociation
of mindfulness, therapeuticnurturing, and born to be

(58:42):
nurtured.
So these are full-day classes.
I try to have a variety ofprices so that you know there it
there's some that are on thelower end of things, things that
are a little bit a little bithigher, because you know, I need
my bread too.
I need my sandwiches.
Send me a note, send me aletter.
I do have those consultationgroups that run every second

(59:02):
Friday of the month, and I havea deal.
Like I buy four for three.
So instead of paying, I think Isaid that right.
Also, just email too.
You can reach me on my website,Christineforner.com.

Lisa Danylchuk (59:16):
Okay.
I love it.
Any parting words of wisdom?

Christine Forner (59:22):
There is a version of humans that fits us.
That's good for us.
That's that's relatively it'snot terribly complicated.
It's gonna be hard for us toget back to our roots because
healing this stuff is brutal.
There's no if, ands, or doubtsabout it.
It is very brutal.

(59:42):
But nurturing is thescaffolding that makes healing
possible.
Nurturing is the thing that isgoing to heal us.
That's that just makes me wakeup every day.

Lisa Danylchuk (59:56):
I love it.
And it makes me think about howmany steps.

Christine Forner (01:00:15):
I'm not gonna shame you.
I'm gonna help you calm down.
It's nurturing.
I'm also in substack known asthe fierce nurturer.

Lisa Danylchuk (01:00:26):
Nice.
I love it.
Christine, thank you for comingback on the show.
I feel like we could pick anytopic we talked about today and
dive down any of those long anddeep rabbit holes into the earth
and into history.
So I'm excited that you'rewriting about this and looking
forward to being able to sharethat.
Come back on the show when yourbook's ready and we'll talk

(01:00:47):
about it.

Christine Forner (01:00:48):
I sure will.
Big hug up snuggles foreverybody.
Consensual huggle snuggles.
Always.
Okay.

Lisa Danylchuk (01:00:56):
Thanks, Christine.
Bye.
Thank you so much forlistening.
Now, I'd really love to hearfrom you.
What resonated with you in thisepisode and what's on your mind
and in your heart as we bringthis conversation to a close?
Email me at info at how we canheal.com or share your answers

(01:01:18):
and what's been healing for youin the comments on Instagram, or
you'll find me at How We CanHeal.
Don't forget to go tohowwecanheal.com to sign up for
email updates as well.
You'll also find additionaltrainings, tons of free
resources, and the fulltranscript of each and every
show.
If you love the show, pleaseleave us a review on Apple,

(01:01:39):
Spotify, Audible, or whereveryou're listening to this podcast
right now.
If you're watching on YouTube,be sure to like and subscribe
and keep sharing the shows youlove the most with all your
friends.
Visit how we can heal.comforward slash podcast to share
your thoughts and ideas for theshow.
I always, always love hearingfrom you.

(01:02:00):
Before we wrap up for today, Iwant to be super clear that this
podcast isn't offeringprescriptions.
It's not advice, nor is it anykind of mental health treatment
or diagnosis.
Your decisions are in yourhands, and I encourage you to
consult with any healthcareprofessionals you may need to
support you through your uniquepath of healing.

(01:02:22):
In addition, everyone's opinionhere is their own, and opinions
can change.
Guests share their thoughts,not that of the host or
sponsors.
I'd like to thank our gueststoday and everyone who helped
support this podcast directlyand indirectly.
Alex, thanks for taking care ofthe babe and taking the fur
babies out while I record.

(01:02:43):
Last and never least, I'd liketo give a special shout out to
my big brother Matt, who passedaway in 2002.
He wrote this music, and itmakes my heart so very happy to
share it with you here.