Running Isn’t Therapy: Katharina Hartmuth on Healing from Trauma and Finding Joy in the Mountains

Episode Transcript
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Lisa Danylchuk (00:03):
Welcome back to the How We Can Heal podcast.
Today our guest is KatharinaHartmuth, an ultrarunner who has
learned to invest in her mindjust as much as her muscles.
Originally from Germany and nowliving in Switzerland, Katerina
has a quiet determination thatshines through in each race she
runs.
She's the winner of thelegendary Tour de Geants

(00:24):
330-kilometer race and has stoodon the podium at both Ultra
Trail Mont Blanc, UTMB, and theHard Rock 100 multiple times.
What's just as remarkablethough is how she shows up with
humility, joy, and a deeprespect for the mountains and
the people around her.
Today, we talk about healing onand off the trail, and Katerina

(00:47):
shares the value she's found inpsychotherapy to help her
address experiences of trauma.
Katerina reminds us thatendurance isn't just about
pushing through pain, it's aboutconnection, compassion, and
being fully authentic to ourdeepest sense of self each step
of the way.
I feel lucky to have seenKaterina out on the trail
running and crossing thosefinish lines, and even more so

(01:10):
to have this chat with her heretoday.
Please join me in welcomingKatharina Hartmuth to the show.
I think some people who arelistening are in the ultraspace
and know you well.
Some folks are yogis, mentalhealth professionals, other

(01:34):
wellness providers, and mightnot know of your beautiful
beastliness, as I was justcalling it.
You're such an inspiration andjust we've met briefly at races.
I don't expect you to remember.
And uh you're always just sowarm and kind too.
And there's something reallybeautiful about that.
So I want to kind of dig intosome different things, the
documentary that came out aboutyou recently, and yeah, just

(01:57):
share that with folks today.

Katharina Hartmuth (01:59):
Yeah, thank you so much.
I'm uh yeah, happy to talk toyou and thanks so much for the
invitation.

Yeah.

Happy to be here.

Yes.
So I feel like this is such aselfish question.
But as someone who's never runhard rock and would love to, but
might never, I mean, there's alot of us out there who would
love to, but just might never doit for a whole host of reasons,
right?
It's a hard race to get into.
It takes a lot of training andfitness and probably gifts from

(02:27):
the universe, right?
To get to the start line.
So what's it like to be outthere at like 15,000 plus feet
for a hundred miles on thetrail?
What is that particular racelike for you?

Uh well, first of all, it's hard.

Yeah, right.

It's supposed to be.
Yeah.
Um yeah, it's it's it's just atough race.
I mean, just the altitude andbeing at altitude like for so
long, and like some stretches ofthe race are just like at
12,000 feet and longer for likemany, many hours without ever
going like lower.
So yeah, it's I think thealtitude is just what ultimately

(03:11):
makes it so different, uhdifficult.
Yeah, even without thealtitude, it would be a
difficult race.
I mean, there's a lot ofclimbing, it's still 100 miles,
like there is difficulttechnical sections in the race.
But I think, yeah, for me, likethe ultimate factor, and that
also, at least for me, it makesit different from the races I
usually do in Europe, is justthe altitude.

(03:33):
Yeah, and just yeah, havingless air.

Hi up there.
It makes me think it's like aspiritual experience, just being
that high in the air, you know,you're like so in the
mountains.
And so I think that's part ofmy personal longing for it.
Maybe one day.
Maybe one day.
We'll just put it up there.
Maybe one day it'll cometogether.
Can you share some favoritemoments from that particular
race?

Well, I think the cool thing with
hardware is certain like onething I really like is that it's
a really small race.
I mean, it yeah, it's reallypopular, but because there is
only so few people who areallowed to run it each year, it
well, there certainly is like abuzz at the start and before the
race and everything.

(04:18):
But what I really like is thatyou are out there basically on
your own, like after a fewhours, the field is so
stretched, which is just itmakes it feel less like a race.
Like you're just like runningon your own through this
beautiful nature, and actuallybecause it is so remote, like
you don't even yeah, you reallydon't think about being in a
race apart from like you know,running through a few towns that

(04:42):
are along the way and likeyeah, being at the aid station,
which I really enjoy becauseyeah, one reason why I run is
just that I love being in themountains, and I also really
love being in the mountains onmy own.
Yeah, just do my own thing.
And yeah, I mean, there is big,big races where you never
really have that alone time.

(05:02):
So that's something Idefinitely really like about
hard rock, but on the otherside, the actually yeah, the
aspect of the community is alsosomething that that draws me
towards the race.
It's a very special community,especially because there is so
many people who have beenconnected to the race for
decades.
Yeah, they have met all theirfriends at the race, and they um

(05:23):
yeah, they have the race hasbeen such an important part of
their life.
And when you talk to these tothese people and they are, you
know, you meet them at datestations and around the race.
It's just it's cool to see howsomething simple like a race can
connect people in a veryspecial way, in a very special

(05:45):
way, and to experience that andalso like their passion for the
race and for the place there andjust for running in general,
yeah, that's just somethingunique, and it's really just a
really nice atmosphere becauseeverybody who is there, from the
volunteers to the yeah, theveterans and the race
organizers, they live for thatrace.

(06:06):
And yeah, that's I think that'ssomething really special.
And um, yeah, it's it'scertainly yeah, part from the
running in the nature, thecommunity is just such a such an
important part of my rookie.

It's so beautiful, and I I resonate so
much with what you're sayingbecause I got drawn towards
ultra running because I waslike, I just get to be in the
mountains.
Somebody picked the trail, theyput flags out for me, there's
snacks, there's people at theend.
It's like it's like a long allday, or depending on the
distance, it's a long hikethat's like fully supported and
celebrated.
I'm like, sign me up, right?

(06:41):
And the community aspect ofthat, you know, I'll just share
briefly.
I knew about hard rock, but Iwatched the live coverage in
2023 when my daughter was what,two, three months old, and I was
sitting there nursing her inthe chair, watching on the TV
the whole thing, right?
And then this was the summerthat Courtney DeWalter was doing
her triple crown, right?
So I watched all of those.

(07:02):
And then lo and behold, thefollowing year, we just ended
up, I didn't put it togetheruntil the end of that summer.
I was like, oh, we ended upgoing to all of those races.
Once my daughter turned one, wewent to Western states as we
normally do.
We live in California.
We went to Hard Rock for thefirst time in 2024 when you were
running it and cheered for you.
And then we went to UTMB thatyear too.
And same thing last year.

(07:23):
It's like once we got a tasteof it, we weren't planning to go
this year, but it got close andwe were like, oh, we just gotta
be there.
Like it's such a great energy.
And like you said, it's thecommunity and it's small,
there's a buzz, there's so muchlove and appreciation of the
mountains.
And I think of the sport.
And like you said, it's hard.
And I think there's a realappreciation and celebration of

(07:46):
that, and even the vulnerabilityin it.
Cause I I mean, I've heard alot of people say, I've always
said this like, I don't know ifI'm gonna do a long race, if I'm
gonna finish or not.
Like you really put yourselfout there when you do things
like this.
And so it's been such a joyjust to be a part of that and
you know, go to Uray or tellyour ride and cheer at the
finish line and you know, feellike you could sort of

(08:06):
participate with people who areout there in the field.
So let's talk a little bitabout the hard moments.
Like it could be hard rock orjust in general in trail
running.
What would you say are some ofthe most challenging moments for
you out there?

Well, I would well, first of all, I
would say that there is there isalways challenging moments in
each race that I do because theraces that I do are so long
usually.
So it's almost impossible tohave a race that is like more
than 15 hours long withoutexperiencing a low.
Yeah.
Um, but I I don't think it'ssomething bad.

(08:44):
I mean, it's just something youneed to be prepared for.
That's you know, at some pointsomething will happen.
And actually, I think it'squite diverse what could happen.
And especially in hard rock, Iexperienced issues that I hadn't
experienced in that way before.
So I think my biggest challengewith hard rock, like the two
hard rocks I've done, uh, iscertainly my eye pro like my

(09:07):
vision issues.

Yeah.

Doing both hard rocks I experienced that
after a certain amount of time,I just I struggled to see
clearly.
I lost my vision likepartially, and actually in this
year's race, I lost itcompletely at some point.
So that was certainly achallenge that I'm not used to
that much.
But that is for me, it's yeah,specific for our hard work, and

(09:32):
I think it is because of thealtitude.
Yeah, like something is notworking well with my eyes when I
work hard for a long time ataltitude, and that's why I'm
currently looking at it with myophthalmologist and some experts
for altitude to find solutionsin future races.
But I would say, apart fromthat, like the classic problems

(09:53):
doing along the race for me iswell, first of all, anything
that is linked to nutrition,yeah, stomach issues, not being
able to eat or to drink, andthen of course, you you know
lose your energies, and yeah,that's that's a big issue.
I had that last year duringhard work that I also I think
the altitude makes it evenharder to eat.

(10:14):
So I couldn't eat for a verylong time, and then I just
bonked like crazy.
And I once I was so low onenergy, it was even harder to
get back to eating.
So I think that's somethingthat is that can affect your
race a lot.
But of course, it's also it'salso like just pain, you know,
your muscles will hurt at somepoint, no matter how well

(10:35):
trained you are.
Um, and for example, doing UTMBthis year, I think because of
the cold weather there, I had itwas epic that cold weather
there.
It was like the most epicconditions ever.
Like I've I've like last yearat Tour de Gion, we already had
like really bad weather, but andI was like, okay, I think I'm
prepared to run in the rain, butthat was not just rain.

(10:57):
Yeah, it was crazy.
It's like, yeah, I I mean I wasprepared to run in the rain for
a long time, but I was notprepared to run in a shower for
five hours on a e-book.

In your interview at the end, I did I
didn't know I needed to bring mybathing suit, right?

Yeah, I should actually I should have
brought a wetsuit.

Yeah, yeah, right.

Well, and and then I just I had some
problems with my quads likepretty early on in the race,
like after 50 miles already.
And man, it was so painful.
But I knew that I wasn'tinjured.
I was just like, well, I guessjust my muscles hurt, and that
was really hard.
And yeah, I think all theselittle things that usually the
problem at some point is notyour body, it's like what your

(11:42):
mind does with it.
So if my legs hurt, it's not mylegs that decide that I cannot
run anymore, but it's my mindthat makes me question if I can
do this and if it is the rightthing.
And yeah, I mean, pain is notit's nothing nice.
Well, I mean, we do this and weare prepared to experience some
pain in the race, and it's partof the race.

(12:04):
But yeah, I think usually thelow points in the race in a long
race for me are yeah, usuallyeither it's the nutrition that I
cannot get in, or or that makesmy stomach just feel bad, or
yeah, it's some physical likeproblems with with my legs, with
my muscles that make me feelbad.
And yeah, I think actually formost people, also just the

(12:29):
mental it's it's just a mentalchallenge as well, like asking
yourself, how long do I stillhave, you know, and why do I do
this?
And oh shouldn't I just stop?
And you know, but and I wouldsay it's certainly challenging,
but I never really encounterlike or usually I don't
encounter like moments wherejust my mind tells me I should

(12:53):
stop, or like you know, where Ithink about oh, I it could also
stop and you know be morecomfortable immediately.
I only had like one or tworaces ever where I at some point
I I asked myself why I am doingthis.
So I think I I think I have apretty strong motivation why I
run.
And yeah, of course, if if I'minjured or if I feel that I get

(13:16):
sick, then maybe I think aboutthat stopping would be the the
better option.
But just because I'm bored or Idon't want to run anymore or I
feel not well in that moment, Iusually don't feel it so much
like on my like how I feelmentally.
So I think that's maybe one ofmy strengths actually, because
I'm not the strongest runner,certainly not.

(13:38):
And I don't think I have thephysical abilities to like just
from my from the physical sideto be like a top contender, but
I think that especially on thelonger, you know, the longer a
race is, the more important itis what you do, like how your
mind works and how you approachthe race from a mental
perspective.
And I think I'm pretty goodwith just dealing with

(13:58):
uncomfortable situations, yeah.
And being as comfortable as Ican be while actually feeling
very uncomfortable.
So I think that's a yeah,there's a good uh good
characteristic to to have whenyou do these long, long races.

Yeah, I hear that as in my so like I'm a
trauma therapist, right?
And there's all these models ofyour nervous system, and one of
them is called the window oftolerance.
And so what you're describingto me sounds like a wide window
of tolerance.
It's like I'm in pain, but Ican be comfortable here.
I can ask the question, am Ihurt or am I tired?
And if if I'm tired, I can keepgoing if I want to, right?

(14:38):
Like and the the decision orthe option is there to stop, but
it only it sounds like it onlyreally enters your mind if
you're like, am I really sick oram I hurting myself here?
Like, I mean, that's always mylimit, is like, I don't want to
hurt myself, but I'm okay beinglike ouch.
You know, like this is hurtingas long as it's not like you're
not gonna run after it.

And was what do you say?
Like, I mean, for example,during the hard work this year,
when I couldn't see, I was like,okay, now I'm concerned because
you know, I don't want to riskmy eye losing my eyesight while
doing a race.
So that was when I actuallythought about well, might it be
better to stop?
And then I talked to the medicsat the aid station, and they
were like, no, you should befine.

(15:18):
It it feels worse than it is.
So, and and they were right,and also because I experienced
it last year and I experiencedhow quickly it well, well, it
was going away after the race.
The condition I was concerned,but I couldn't see anything, but
somehow, yeah, I knew that Iwasn't risking like my eyesight.

(15:39):
So if that would have been thecase, yeah, then of course I
would have stopped.

Ocular edema, right?
It's like it happens to allathletes, it's not an swelling.
Yeah.

Um, and I think, well, of course, it the
movement and just likecontinuous like exercise for
many, many hours aggravates it.
But I think the yeah, certainconditions like the yeah, the
humidity or altitude or the dustlevel in the in the air is just

(16:11):
yeah, that can further just uhmake it more severe.

So yeah.
So how would you describe whatkeeps you going in those moments
where it's uncomfortable, orthere's a maybe there's a
question of like, should I stop?
And you get some reassurance,like, no, you're gonna be okay,
you know, this is uncomfortable,but it's safe.
What is it within you?
How would you describe whatkeeps you moving forward?

I would say I just have like a really strong
intrinsic motivation to run inthe mountains.
Yeah, and I think my well, thebiggest key for success for me
is the joy in what I'm doing.
So like trail running for me,or just well, not just trail

(17:01):
running, but being in themountains, it's just the one
thing that brings me the mostjoy in life.
So if you would give me like aweek where I have nothing to do,
and you would tell me, hey,just go and you know, do
whatever brings you joy, uh, Iwould just spend a week in the
mountains and be there becauseit yeah, just really it fulfills

(17:24):
me like in a way that thatnothing else really can fulfill
me.
So it's yeah, it's justsomething that is so enjoyable
for me.
And of course, I mean, I'mspeaking from the position of
being a pro-athlete, so there iscertainly some work involved
too, and not every day is asjoyful.

(17:44):
There is some training sessionsthat are just hard, and there
is some some days where I wakeup and I'm like, oh, I really
don't want to do this today.
But I would say on average, andespecially when I go to the
mountains, like there is notit's almost never a question for
me if I'm motivated or not.
I I just am because it gives meso much in return.

(18:05):
So and I yeah, I think that'sjust for me, that's that's such
a strong driver.
Um and for that's alsosomething with the races.
I always tell myself if one dayI feel that I like the fun is
not the high has not the highestpriority anymore, but it's more

(18:27):
about yeah, achieving a certainuh I don't know, like achieving
a podium or just it's moreabout the performance and not so
much about enjoying it.
I think yeah, I always somewhathave that if that day would
come, I would need to changesomething and I would need to
maybe step back from racing andjust focusing on on the running

(18:50):
itself.
I mean, I only had I only everhad one race where I felt a bit
under pressure and where I feltoh now it's not so fun anymore.
And it's I feel more like Ihave to I have to achieve
something and I have to win thisrace and yeah, fulfill the
expectations of others.
And but that was the only race,and actually I realized really

(19:12):
quickly during the race why Iwas not running well and why I
was not feeling well, becauseyeah, I felt like I wasn't
running for fun basically, butfor something else.
And yeah, luckily I managed toget around this and find my true
motivation again.
And yeah, I think also becausethis from like this perspective

(19:33):
gives you a certain uh way oflike being a bit more relaxed
before a race as well.
Yes, of course, there issometimes you feel like, oh, I I
yes, of course, I I am a prettygood runner, maybe people
expect me to to perform well,but I think I can separate this
from my very own motivation andmy own goals.

(19:56):
And I can accept that maybepeople expect something, but
it's not affecting me uh thatmuch.
So I think that's reallyhelpful.
Yeah, and also just I thinkrunning was like such an
important tool for me to be likea stabilizer when my life was
maybe not as stable, or therewas many things that made me

(20:17):
feeling not too well in general.
And I think the running wasalways always something I could
I could go back to and I couldrely on.
And just in the fact that itmakes me feel good, yeah, and
like happy and and fulfilled andbalanced.

Yeah.
There was a documentary thatrecently came out, I think in
the last three weeks or months,um, on YouTube called Katarina,
and it's all about your journey.
And you talk about how runningin the mountains has been
healing for you.
Do you feel like it's connectedto that sense of motivation and
joy you were just describing?
What else is happening whenyou're in the mountains?

(20:56):
How is it healing?

Yeah, totally.
I would say healing mostly inthe sense that it's something
that, yeah, first of all, itbrings me joy and uh makes me
happy, but also I think oneimportant thing is that I can
just when I run in themountains, especially when I'm
on my own, I feel like I canjust be myself.
Like I feel free from anyexpectation or any uh yeah,

(21:23):
anything that others want me todo or others think I should do.
I'm just free to run and beoutside and be myself.
And I think that's that'sreally heal definitely healing,
but I think it's also healing,or well, in a sense that it
makes me more, maybe more stableand more self-confident, is
when I set myself a challenge,for example, and then I just go

(21:47):
and try to do it.
Like, for example, when Istarted running in the night on
my own, like that, I mean it'sstill to this day, it's always a
challenge because I just preferto run in the daylight.
But it was a big challenge inthe beginning, and I wasn't sure
if I could do it on my own, butthen I did it and I I could do
it, and I was like, oh wow,yeah, that's that's pretty cool.

(22:08):
Like, you know, I can just goout there and run on my own in
the middle of the night, and youknow, not many people would do
that, and it's not about beingbetter than somebody else, that
definitely not, but it's moreabout okay, it gives me the
confidence, you know, that I cando something on my own that is
pretty challenging.
And I realize that that helps alot with other tasks in life

(22:31):
that have nothing to do withrunning at all.
But where I feel like, oh,maybe in the beginning I'm not
sure if I can do something.
But well, I mean, yeah, I I Ialready did it with running or
with challenges uh in themountains, and yeah, then
sometimes yeah, you can takethat and it helps you in the in
everyday life as well.

(22:51):
But I think yeah, it's justit's just I think especially
this feeling of hey, I am astrong person after all, you
know, and maybe not so much inthe physical way, like of course
I need to have strong legs toget up and down the mountains,
but more on the mental side, youknow, like I can do something

(23:12):
that maybe is a bit scary in thebeginning or where I have
doubts and where I'm not sure ifI can do it.
But the cool thing with themountains is I can just go there
and try it.
And if I don't, if I don'tachieve my goal, nobody needs to
know, and it's fine, and youknow, I don't lose money or
whatever.
I'm just like, okay, I will tryagain next time.

(23:33):
Yeah, um, so it's a really justpeaceful playground, I would
say.
Um, and yeah, and of course,also, well, I I talk a lot about
how I run on my own, and that'sreally something I I enjoy, but
also through running, meetingother people, of course, along
the way, be it when I'm at racesor through my sponsors, or just

(23:58):
through running in general, andI think that is also part of
the healing because I think I'vemet so many people through
running that have maybe not thesame story, but their very own
story, of course.
But I think especially theultra-running, it brings
together many people who havesomething going on.
Yeah, like I mean, maybe somehave some sort of trauma they

(24:22):
deal with, some have, I don'tknow, some some other issues, or
yeah, maybe even mental healthissues, and but the running or
being outside in nature justjust helps them as well.
And I think I met way morepeople through running where I
connected with them also overthese things than I did outside
of running.
Um, also I think becauserunning and being outside in the

(24:45):
mountains is already a goodconnector, so you already have
something, you know, yeah, uhthat you both love, and then uh
it's easier also to talk aboutother things.
But yeah, I think also justmeeting people along the way
that have their own story, butyeah, also are connected through
that passion.
I think that's also part ofhealing in in some way.

Definitely having that sense of connection
with other people.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah, I know in the documentary you mentioned uh
like having the feeling havinghad trauma in your childhood
growing up and like having thefeeling of being on your own
planet, like oh, like notfeeling connected, right?
Like I think most of us havefelt that way to some degree in
our lives, and like finding whatyou're describing, like the
connection to yourself, theconnection to joy, the lack of

(25:34):
expectations of others, or theseparating that, like letting it
go, the connection to nature,the connection to the community.
It's like connection,connection, connection, right?
You're connecting on so manylevels with yourself, with with
other people in a genuine way,you know, shared interests and
shared experience, and then alsolike with the planet itself

(25:54):
underneath your feet and youknow, through your eyes when you
can see through them whenyou're beautiful views.
So it sounds like theconnection piece on those three
levels is is a big part of whatfeels healing for you out there.

Oh, totally, yeah, absolutely.
I think that for a long part ofmy life I was afraid of
connections for well for I fordifferent reasons, but I think
just learning how to make goodconnections after all, that was
a really important part for me.
Uh to like feel better and thenyeah, like progress on my own

(26:33):
on my own journey, yeah, andalso accepting that we are human
beings, like there's a fewexceptions, but most of us we
need connections to like feelgood and feel better and to just
be like yeah, stable and andhappy.
And I think I I used to havethat perspective because I had

(26:54):
some really bad connections withpeople as well, is I just used
to have that perspective, oh, Ihave to do everything on my own,
and I better shouldn't trustanyone because it didn't go well
in the path.
Yeah, um, and I I think I wasstuck in in that thinking for a
really long time.
Um and I well, in hindsight, Iknow it was of course a

(27:18):
protection mechanism, but itjust it took so long to get out
of that and actually accept thefact that yeah, maybe that those
connections were bad and thatthey were harmful, but that
doesn't mean that there is nogood connections, you know.
And actually, I felt like socomfortable in that in being

(27:41):
isolated or on my own that Ididn't realize that that was not
the best option.
You know, I was like, okay,this is my comfort zone, but and
I thought I was comfortable inthat because I was protecting
myself from more bad thingshappening to me through up
through bad connections.
But at the same time, Icouldn't really see how actually

(28:02):
having good connections wouldeven make it better, you know.
And and now in hindsight, now Ileft that comfort zone, which
obviously is not a comfort zonewhen you isolate yourself.

Right.

But now I that I left it, and now that I
think that well, these goodconnections that they actually
make my life, you know, betterand and and enrich my life.
Now I see that it certainly, ofcourse, was not a comfort zone.
It was just a you know, I justhad that protection shield
around me.

So um the opposite of that wide window,
right?
It's like a very narrow.

Exactly.
It's just it's really like,yeah, you're like so stuck.
Um, but yeah, of course, I alsosee why it was so difficult to
like you know, build up somesome good connections.
But I think, yeah, and comeback to the running is that I
think that helped me a lot.
First of all, the runninghelped me to be a like a more

(28:57):
confident person and to actuallysee that I still have some
value as a human being, but alsojust meeting people along the
way who shared that and who justI don't know, first of all,
didn't judge me about what I wasdoing.
Yeah, and then they were like,Well, we know that we are all a
little bit crazy in what we aredoing, but uh you know that's

(29:19):
totally fine.
And and who could also relateto why I I do that and why I
feel like I have to do it tosome degree.
Yeah, um I think that was justyeah, that was really, really,
really helpful.
And I yeah, like my best, mybest friends I've either met
through running or through likeyeah, just the trail world, or

(29:40):
at least they are somehowconnected to you know the
mountains or whatever.
Yeah.
Um, so yeah, I think yeah, inthe end it's it's healing in
many ways.

Yeah, there's a moment in the documentary where
you say running certainly is nottherapy.
I need both, like running istherapeutic, but it's not.
The only thing it makes methink.
Do you follow on Instagram theaccount your boy Scott Jurick?
Do you know what I'm talkingabout?
Of course I do.
Oh, I just have to like shoutout to that person, whoever they

(30:13):
are.

Whoever it is, it's the best account ever.

Mystery person.
I actually thought it was ScottJurik for the first year I
followed, and then I was like,he's really funny.
What's going on here?
But they they posted somethingthat said running is my therapy,
says guy who could absolutelyuse real therapy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, you know, I I was the oneperson saying, Oh, running is
my therapy a few years a fewyears ago, because you know it's
so simple.
It's very therapeutic.
And I still agree, it's it's agreat therapy in the sense that
it can definitely for a certainamount of time make you feel

(30:51):
better.
Yeah.
And it's certainly somethingthat does you good.
So it's certainly, well, Iwould say complementary to other
things that you should do ifactually you you know uh you
think you need some therapy oryou you want to work on things.
Um yeah, I think for me, well,it's it's important to say that

(31:14):
running is not therapy because Ithink that because I have been
in therapy for quite a few yearsnow, and I've experienced what
therapy actually means and does,and how it works and how
helpful it is.
Running is great, but it's notwell, it can never be a
substitute for real therapy,because therapy means that there

(31:36):
is another human being whotalks to you, who asks you
things, and that's just adifferent like process than oh,
I go to the mountains and I run.
Um, especially because people Ithink people who say running is
not therapy, they are still inthe phase that they are running
away from things.
Um, more that they actually sitdown and look at things and

(31:59):
like face them and try to workthrough things.
So for me, well, running isreally helpful, and I think
running is really a good thing,like it's really complementary
like to my therapy, with the theactual therapy.
Yeah, because running gives meall this like positive vibes and
positive feelings and theself-confidence and like this

(32:22):
feeling of okay, I havesomething that makes my life a
bit more stable and that makesme happy and so on.
But then actually reallyworking on things and and yeah,
facing whatever trauma or issuesor whatever, you need well, if
you really want to do a therapy,you should do a therapy, which

(32:43):
is seeing a therapist andtalking about things.
So it's a bit like easy saying,like, oh, I don't need therapy
because I have running.

Right.

Well, certainly it's helpful.
I mean, because especiallybecause I've been that person
who thought, oh, I don't needtherapy.
You know, I can solve things onmy own.
I can, I can, I'm good in proat problem solving, and I've
always somehow, you know,figured things out on my own.
But only when I had therapy,and only after a few years of
therapy, actually, I realized,oh no, there's things I could

(33:13):
have never, never ever seen onmy own or worked through on my
own.
Like, no, it's just impossible.

Yeah.

Um, and it's not because I was weak or like
whatever.
No, it's just it's just notpossible.

Yeah.
Well, even something like youmentioned building trust or
feeling trust again.
Like you can run around in themountains largely by yourself
because you know you're at thefront of the pack and you're in
a small race, but like you'renot necessarily going to be
confronted with like arelational moment in that way,
right?
Yes, there's community andthere's support and there's
friendship there, and maybe thetrust comes about there.

(33:49):
But when you really talk aboutwanting to focus on something
traumatic or wanting to workthrough an issue and wanting to
like rebuild a sense of trust, Ithink you know, psychotherapy
is a great place for that.
And different cultures havedifferent ways to address, you
know, supporting mental healthand moving through mental health
issues.
And I think there's differentpaths up the mountain, if you

(34:12):
will.
But but it's great to be ableto go, you know what?
I actually want a person.
I want to work with a person onthis and get some help.
And that can be vulnerable too,just like reaching out, trying
to find someone.
I know a lot of people say itfeels like dating at first.
You're like, how do I find atherapist that I actually like?
You know, I didn't like thisperson's office and it smelled

(34:32):
weird over here and whatever.
You know, like I've literallygone back to a therapist because
their office smelled weirdpersonally.
So like there's all kinds ofreasons where you just need to
be comfortable enough to startand and have a place where it's
like, okay, I want to commit tothis and figure some things out
about myself and and hopefullyreally learn and grow in a deep

(34:56):
and valuable way.

Yeah, and it's so hard because yeah,
getting into therapy, I thinkjust deciding that you actually
want to see someone is that'sprobably the hardest step at
all.

Yeah.

It feels like a weakness at first, and
you feel like, oh, I'm for me,it always felt like oh, I'm
sick, you know, I need to go.
Especially like because my theplace where I see my therapist,
it's in a hospital.
So I always felt like, oh, Ihave to go to the hospital, you
know, something is wrong withme.
And well, unfortunately, well,I I grew up in in Germany, and

(35:31):
then now I live in Switzerland.
And I can only speak for thesecountries, but it's it's still
so stigmatized, like mentalhealth in general.
It's nobody really talks aboutit.
And I'm like, oh guys, youknow, we go to the doctor when
we break our arm, we go to thedoctor when we have stomach
ache, and it's nothing likenothing is wrong with that.

(35:54):
And we also should go to thedoctor when we don't feel well,
yeah.
Um just in general, like thereis nothing like physically
broken, but if something likementally is not not yeah, just
not good, and but yeah, it'sit's yeah, even for me, it it
was so so hard in in thebeginning, and and yeah, I I

(36:15):
mean I I I was lucky becausewell, lucky in the sense that I
had well the therapist I havenow been working uh together
with for like many many years, Imet her by chance in an in an
emergency room.
Wow.
So I was lucky that she wasthere and uh she was on duty on
that day.
Yeah, because that was justlike by chance, it could have

(36:39):
been anyone or from thathospital, and um it was after
that incident, I saw her onlylike every couple months, and
then I didn't see her for acouple years because I thought I
was fine.
Yeah, um, but I somehow at somepoint I realized I I was
definitely not fine, and I Iwent back to see her because she
she offered me that I couldalways you know contact her, and

(37:00):
and I was just really luckybecause I knew that it would be
able like it could work withher, yeah.
Um, and because I've had adifferent therapist like a
decade ago, and that certainlydidn't work out, so I I already
was aware that you know itreally needs to fit.
And yeah, yeah, it so I was Iwas really lucky in that in that

(37:22):
regard, but still I when I Iwent to see her again, like the
first thing I said is I needhelp because I feel really bad
now, but I don't want to do atherapy.
Yeah, I was so scared of doinga therapy, and and I think after
like only like a couple weeksor months, it was obvious that
that was pretty much turninginto a therapy.

Yeah, you're like, well, let's just talk and
we'll see where it goes.

Exactly.
And she told me later, like afew years later, she was like,
Yeah, I already knew in thatmoment that you came back, that
you know, this was very much thebeginning of the therapy.
Um, but yeah, I'm I'mdefinitely very much aware how
difficult it is to just well,first of all, to to get to the
point where you're like, okay, Ithink I try this, and then to

(38:06):
actually find someone who isfitting.
And then also, I think that'sprobably also even more a
problem in the US, is actuallybe able to pay that person
because it's really expensive.
Yeah, and I'm really luckybecause in Switzerland,
actually, if you have at somepoint or had a diagnosis at some
point from a doctor orwhatever, um, it's pretty much

(38:28):
all covered by the basic healthinsurance.
Because otherwise, I I mean,I've been in therapy now for
five years.
I couldn't have done thatbecause most of it I was a
student and I wasn't reallyearning anything.

Yeah.

And it's really expensive.
So I could have, I justcouldn't have afforded, I
couldn't afford it.
Um, but because the um thehealth insurance is paying it,
and I can afford it becausebasically I pay nothing, um,
which is just a huge privilege,but it really shouldn't be.

I'm so glad you have that, and I wish ever I
wish that for everyone aroundthe world.
Yeah, yeah, it's definitely aproblem in the US.

Yeah, it's it's really hard talking to
friends.
I mean, I also have a few quitea few friends in the US by now,
and talking to them, I mean,not only about therapy, but in
general, health-related issues.
I mean, especially runners, youknow, we are injured quite a
bit, unfortunately, here andthere.
And wow, that's just I yeah, II more and more realize how

(39:23):
lucky I am to live in a place,you know, where there is an
insurance that actually comes upto pay things, especially on
the mental side, because I thinkthat's that's probably
something that in some countriesit's just really hard to like
get any support.

Yeah, and the mental is physical, like if
you're feeling isolated andgetting depressed, there there
are actually physiologicalmechanisms behind that, you know
what I mean?
So it's like we're totally, Iyeah, I totally know.

Like it affects you in a way that like
people like I mean, just takesomething like a panic attack.
Yeah.
Panic attacks are really likecommon, like when people are
mentally not feeling well, andlike when you have a panic
attack, you actually well, youfeel like or you think you are
about to die, and that's becauseyour body reacts as if it was
going to die, you know, you'rehyperventilating, your heart

(40:16):
rate is just going crazy.
Um, you're yeah, you just liketo think like, okay, this is it.
Yeah.
So, and and I mean alsodepression, like if if if there
is somebody who has likewhatever uh state of depression,
like it makes you just feelsick on the physical side as

(40:37):
well.
Um, you can't get out of bed,you know.
You are maybe you have like yousweat in the night, or um, you
feel like some pain.
I mean, people feel pain intheir bones or whatever, but
it's not like because they havea physical disease, so to say,
but it's from the from theirmental illness, or I mean, yeah,

(40:59):
whatever affects them mentally.

So uh yeah, it's it's really sad that yeah,
there is still like this tabooaround it.
Yeah.
And there's even like socialresponses in our body, like when
we have social connection, thatlooks different than when we're
isolated or disconnected,right?
So even when people are like,oh, well, I'm just gonna go talk

(41:23):
to a person, you're like, well,that actually does impact your
physiology.
We had um, we've had KathleenKendall-Tackett, who's a uh
psychologist on here a fewtimes, she studies
psychoneuroimmunology.
And I'm like, God, if I had ifI could have picked a major in
college aspsychoneuroimmunology, I totally
would have.
Like just to be able to study,like actually, we we have enough
to know, you know, yeah, ifyou're shamed or isolated or

(41:47):
heartbroken, like there's aphysiological response to that.
So, like, let's just let's getrid of that stigma that you're
talking about.
And just like if you broke yourarm, you'd go to the doctor,
you know, if you're depressed,go get some help.
And there's lots of differentpathways and options.
And if you meet someone andtheir office just smells weird
and you can't go back, it'sfree.

(42:09):
Maybe keep going and justendure the others, but it's you
know, it's like just having avibe that you don't like the
person, like find someone andand advocate.
I mean, that can be hard whenyou're depressed, but I I really
hope that people, anyonelistening who's in that space of
like wanting to reach out, likeyou can get some that first
little push of momentum to justget started.

Yeah, and I mean, yeah, it's it's it's
always hard to say, well, toconvince people that it's worth
it because you have toexperience it.
Like I can tell people as muchas I want how much it helped me,
you know, how how much better Ifeel now, how much more stable
I feel in my life.
But I already know that it willbe really difficult for others

(42:52):
who are at the different pointto understand that because I
would have like I people told mewhen I was at that point, and I
was like, Yeah, that's maybetrue for you, but it cannot be
true for me.
I feel so bad.
And only through the experienceI got to the point where I'm
like, oh, they were, I thinkthey were right.
Um, it took me a few years,like in the beginning, after

(43:14):
like one, two years in therapy,I was like, I don't feel like
I'm getting anywhere, you know.
And I I I was seeing mytherapist actually two times a
week.
Uh so I saw her quitefrequently, but I I had so many
things like that I was carryingwith me.
Like it took a while, andactually in hindsight, I know I
realized that it took me abouttwo years to find that trust

(43:36):
because actually trusting aperson that was one of my main
issues.
And then as soon as I foundthat trust, suddenly I felt
like, oh, now I can work onthings, you know.
Now I can open up all theboxes, and that was a really
freeing experience.
It was still really scary, andI I mean it's still today.
I there is still boxes whereI'm like, oh I can open them up

(43:58):
now, but it's still reallyscary.
Um but I think, and I don'tknow how much longer I will be
in therapy, but probably one ofthe most important things for me
about therapy is not only aboutyou know working on things and

(44:19):
understanding things better andstuff like that, but it's just
that the person who is there foryou, like and who accompanies
you like for many years, andthat allows you to trust and
it's not yeah, of course, it isabout what you talk and like you
what you work on and all theseissues, but I think this basic,

(44:41):
like just that connection thatwe are again having the
connections, just having aconnection, a solid connection
that is persistent.
Yes, um, I think that is for memaybe the the biggest benefit
of the therapy because that wassomething, and I think I also
say that in the documentary, Ionly realized that doing therapy
that it was the first time forme that there was a person that

(45:04):
was just there, and I was notjudging and not expecting
anything, and just listening,and you know, of course, trying
to help me and uh and worktowards um a better version of
myself, but yeah, who was justthere and not leaving and is
just there.
I mean, I've just been to mytherapist, see my therapist

(45:25):
today, so like it's still anongoing process, progress, uh,
process, and um yeah, justhaving that connection and being
able to trust that connection,I think that yeah, that might be
one of the most valuableoutcomes next to you know all
the other stuff.

And you talk about persistence, I think
that's such a great word, and itrelates to trail running too,
just having that persistence anda person who's with you in that
persistence.
Like my experience, I've I'vebeen in therapy and a therapist,
you know, for a long time.
And I feel like someone who canbe with you and you're like,
oh, I just don't feel like I'mgetting anywhere.
And they could be like, yeah,that's really frustrating.

(46:03):
Like, what can we do?
Like, can we notice thatfeeling and what is it about?
And, you know, explore it andsee where where do you want to
go?
What would it look like to feelbetter?
Like just having thatpersistence, because we would
love for it to be this verylinear, you know, exponential
graph or where you're just like,I just keep getting better and
better all the time.
But but life is not like that.

(46:24):
It's not like that though, atall, right?
And even training and fitnessaren't like that, it's all over
the place and it's messy.
And so to have a human therewith you who's like, this is how
it is, and I'm gonna be herewith you and I'm gonna be
persistent, and and I'm andwe're working together and to
have that support.
I mean, there's so much evenresearch.
People talk aboutevidence-based practice in

(46:46):
psychotherapy, which isimportant, and but the strongest
evidence is for therelationship, right?
And it's for the building ofthe trust and the social support
and all the impact that has.
And then the other tools, yes,are also important.
And we find the ones that workat different times for different
reasons, but like those don'twork by themselves without just

(47:07):
a relationship underneath,right?
Without some sense of trust andconnection.
And you know, there's like AItherapy coming out.
Some of it's really scary,awful things have happened, but
it's also like, you know, okay,if we can use the tools in that
way and people can accesssomething rather than nothing,
okay.
But what like the human pieceof this is so important, you

(47:30):
know, even on a biologicallevel.
It's like interacting with ahuman.
I I don't know.
I don't know where tech willgo, but I don't think I've seen
the little robots that there isstarting to like a home robot
you can buy that like cleans upbehind you.
I'm like, I don't think theconnection's gonna quite feel
real in my lifetime.
I don't know.
I don't know.

We'll see.
I I highly doubt it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, maybe there is like robots
who are good at you know,looking at x-rays or whatever.
Uh I think yeah, they might bebetter at that.
I I guess uh I listened to apodcast where uh there was a
cancer expert and she was like,you know, if you have a CT scan
or whatever, should give it toAI because they see the patterns

(48:15):
much easier than we see them.
So I that should be somethingmaybe.
But yeah, I think especiallywhen it's about therapy and when
it is so much about connectionsand the difficulties of
connections, because that's whatseparates us from machines,
basically, is that we well, theyhave all these, they only add
the right the rational likethinking, they don't have

(48:38):
emotions and feelings andwhatever, and you know, like 80%
of the time in therapy it'sabout emotions and feelings,
yeah, and how to deal with themand um how to acknowledge them
and how to yeah, learn fromthem.
And I it was interesting in inthe in this first two, those

(48:58):
first two years of my therapybecause I still had quite a few
really deep blows in that time,and I think that was what made
me doubt that the therapy wasgoing to work.
Yeah, but my therapist wasalways in these situations, she
was like, Well, but you know, wecan we can use this situation
now to learn from it.
Yeah, and that was reallyinteresting because at first I

(49:20):
was like, oh, okay, well, butI'm still like feeling really
bad right now, you know.
But it was then when Irealized, okay, now I am in a
bad situation, but I'm not on myown there.
And there's already somebodywho helps me and you know who
guides me in a way and who I seelike every week.
Um, and who can just also askthe right questions because

(49:43):
that's something that you knowwhen I go talk to a friend, they
are not that experienced.
They maybe they don't ask theright questions, but then a
therapist usually has someexperience and they work with
many patients, and I thinkthat's a qu certainly a quality
that my therapist has had thatshe uses to like just ask the

(50:03):
same uh the ask the rightquestions where I feel like oh
yeah, this is helpful now tothink about this.
Um and yet really just tellingme, hey, this is a yeah, this is
a bad phase now, but let's takeit as like basically like a
case study, yeah.
To to see okay, what happened,uh how is it evolving, and then

(50:26):
also well, of course, well, atsome point it would get better,
and I would get like you knowover it, and and then she was
like, Okay, now we can now wecan reflect on it, you know, and
now we can analyze it and andjust yeah, it I think in
hindsight I learned so much fromthese situations just because I

(50:47):
immediately immediately hadsomebody working with me on
these situations in it whileyou're in it, right?

You don't have to wait for it to get worse or
build a relationship fromscratch when you're in a low.

And also also because she was there and
she saw how I was in thatsituation, you know, she also
learned so much about me, how Iwas behaving, how I was feeling.
Um, and I think it was even thethe fact that she like somebody
was seeing me, you know, likein that situation, and I felt
like okay, I'm I might only seeher once or twice a week, but

(51:23):
there is still somebody whoknows I am not doing well right
now.
And even if maybe I couldn'ttell my friends or like like
people don't at my workplacethey didn't know, but I knew
there was at least somebody whowould know.
There was no way around it,like there was no way hiding how
I was like before when I justisolated myself, so I couldn't

(51:45):
isolate myself anymore.
And sometimes that was annoyingbecause I just feel like oh, I
have to see this thing, I can'tavoid it.
Yeah, yeah.
I still have to go there and II have to talk, I cannot sit
there for an hour and like notsaying anything.
Um, and and just yeah, be likebeing seen in that situation and

(52:08):
not not on my own with withthings.
I think maybe I didn'tappreciate it that much in that
moment, but in hindsight, Ithink it was like yeah, it was
just so important for thehealing and of course for the
trust process.
Yeah, so it it can be a reallyrocky road, and yeah, but as you
say, it's like with training, Imean, like it's never just

(52:31):
going up.
There is always up and down andall around and loops, and yeah,
yeah, and if it may be in inthe in a race, but yeah, also
just in general and in training.
And I mean, I had it quite afew times in the last two weeks,
two years that I thought, oh,I'm I'm I'm back on track, and
boom, there was something elsecoming at me.

And I was like, Oh, you've talked about too how
physical injury can can fallinto this too, where you know,
oh, I'm doing great, I'm feelingstrong, I've got a wreath
coming up, I feel so joyful whenI'm in the mountains, I feel so
confident in my body, and thenI mean, you literally got hit by
a car, right?
But uh and then like hurt yourknee and like have had to do PT

(53:16):
and rehab and change course andjust take care of your physic,
very physical body, but there'smental health implications to
that too, because if you loverunning and that's what you want
to do when someone says youcan't run for this long or you
need to do this other thing toget there, like that can really
impact your mentality, whichthen impacts how you feel in
your body.
And even, you know, if you'reyou might want to isolate, you

(53:38):
might right so you could getdepressed when something like
that happens.
So, how have you addressedthose types of mindset
challenges, those types ofphysical injuries and and the
mental health impact?

That's a really good question because I
hate I had a a few too many ofthem.
Yeah, right.
You got like a lot in a row.
Yeah, I would say I had Ireally had a streak of bad luck,
and I uh I say I had because ofcourse I hope that it's over
soon.

Knocking on wood over here with you.

Oh yeah.
Um, but yeah, I mean it's itstarted with the car accident
like almost two years ago, and Iremember that in after that
accident, like that I had areally bad time like dealing
with that.
Um, because I think alsobecause of the fact that it was
an accident, and I couldn't havedone anything like yeah,

(54:35):
different, like it I it was justsome somebody else's fault, and
I had to accept that.
And that I think that wasreally, really hard.
Um, I actually think inhindsight that because I was in
such a bad mental state, like itit slowed down my healing
process, like the healing of myknee, which I injured in that

(54:55):
accident.
But I also yeah, I workedcontinuously during that time
with my therapist on how I feel,why I feel how I feel, and why
it is so difficult, and yeah,what I can do, what I can try to
make it better, and and work onthings.
And I think that was really,really important for me because
what I didn't know at that pointwas what was yet to come.

(55:18):
Yeah, more and so in hindsight,it was really good that I
worked so much with her on thattopic in that time because it
got a bit better afterwards, andI could do my season, but at
the end of the season, like theknee was always kind of an issue
throughout the year, but andthen by the end of the year we
had to do surgery actually.
Oh and then I was out alsoagain for like two months after

(55:41):
surgery, and and that was hard.
And and then I came back fromsurgery, and then then I thought
like okay, 2025 will beawesome, you know.
I my knee is fixed, and I willjust like crush it.
And I I worked ready to go.
I worked two hours if I comeback, and like I had like three
really good months of training,and in April I wanted to run my

(56:04):
first race post-surgery, and Iwas like, I felt like I I don't
know if I've ever felt that fit,and I was like, wow, this is
really cool, you know, I'veovercome everything.
Well, I did my last long runjust like as I usually do, like
10 days out of the from therace, and I just it went super
well.
I felt great, I was so hypedfor the race, and then I slipped

(56:27):
and just hit my knee on thetrail, and I was like, okay,
well, I just slipped, you know,how bad can it be?
I will just continue to run.
Um the run the rest of the runwas fine, but then the next few
days I really had some pain inmy knee, and I was like, huh,
this isn't good, you know.
The race is only a week away,and I actually even went to the
race, but I a day and I Irested, and a day before the

(56:51):
race I tried to run and Icouldn't run for like 10
seconds, and it was so painful.
I was like, okay, I I guess Ireally just injured my knee
really badly in another, likejust crazy uh freak accident.
And yeah, it turned out that Iwas uh I had like a bone bruise
in the knee, so I was again off.

(57:13):
I couldn't run for another sixweeks, and it was in May, so
that was really hard because theweather was so nice, you know.
Everybody was like, Oh, let'sdo some something together.
I was like, Oh, I shouldn'tmove because I'm injured again,
and that was just such a bummeronce more because I'm like, I
thought I was, you know, oh hadovercome it, and and then there

(57:36):
was that, and then afterwards, Ijust had like like four weeks
to get ready for hard rock,which was really not ideal.

Yeah, I I mean, like I said, we were there at
Hard Rock, I would have neverguessed or known.
I mean, I didn't really knowuntil the documentary how many
injuries you had sustained.
I mean, you just look sostrong, and anyone, you know,
like that race is so obviouslyphysically challenging that I
was like, oh my goodness, shelike you must have done a lot of

(58:07):
physical therapy.

I do a lot of cross-training actually.
Uh, I think because I come fromtriathlon, so I'm used to just
you know jump to into the poolwhen I cannot run.
And yeah, well, bone bruisesare really not not no fun, but
at least you can do non-weightbearing exercise.
So I could get back to my liketo some cycling after a couple
weeks, yeah, which I think washelpful.

(58:28):
Yeah, um, but yeah, of course Idid a lot of extra stuff, you
know.
I rested a lot, I saw myphysio, I did some
electrotherapy, I tried to takeall the important supplements
and you know, check that my mydiet is absolutely on point and
all these little things.
And yeah, I think also justhaving already that good base

(58:51):
from the training after thesurgery and the comeback.
Yeah, and the funny well, theinteresting thing was that when
I had that injury, I alreadyfelt such a difference to the
year before where I was veryfrustrated.
Um yeah, because I was likesuddenly I could deal with it in
a in a in a different way.
And I was like, okay, I'm outfor a while, but you know, this

(59:13):
is not the end of the world.
I can still move.
I will be back running, and Iactually will be back running in
like two months.
Um, I can still do a race thisyear, I can still go do hard
work.
Because of course I was like,oh, I I cannot miss hard work.
You know, out of any race, it'sit's it really shouldn't be
hard work, yeah.
Especially because you neverknow when you get in again.

(59:33):
Um so I really was like, oh, Iand it was so tight, and nobody
really knew if it the time wouldbe enough to get back.
Um so yeah, but it was great tosee that from a mental
perspective, I was much more atease and much more confident in
my abilities.
And actually, I think that thatwas certainly helpful in the

(59:55):
healing process.
Like, yeah, I mean it wastight, but it worked out, so
actually, yeah.
Bone healed pretty well.
Um, yeah, and then justrecently, I mean, I did UTMB,
which was my my second race thisyear, which was really cool.
And then the day after UTMB, Iwas like, I think I I am
actually finally.
I'm done with all of thesethings, and then two days later

(01:00:17):
I had this pain in my footdeveloping, and I was like, are
we out of the way?
Whatever it is, are you fuckingserious?
Like what is going on?
And um, and now I had thesestruggles with my foot for like
almost two months, and yeah,it's uh this is actually the

(01:00:37):
first time that I have an injurywhich is not related to an
accident.
So I know that there was a lotof bad luck and bad coincidence,
but and now it's like now Istill don't know what the
problem was.
Maybe it was with my with myshoe, or maybe it was that I
twisted my ankle and I didn'trealize in the race, something
like that.
But again, now I now especiallybecause it's it's almost now

(01:01:01):
the longest injury I've had inthe last two years, but again, I
I feel like how far I come ondealing with it on the mental
side.
I mean, of course, I stillreally much would prefer to be
able to run.
I mean, actually, there is arace that I would have I would
have run that race right now aswe speak uh on Wonderful Grand

(01:01:22):
Canaria.
Um it should have been the lastrace of my season, but I also
had to cancel it.
Um, also because maybe I wouldhave been able to run, but I
certainly didn't want to riskyou know my next season.
Because I'm like I just want tofinally you know get healthy

(01:01:42):
again, like fully healthy, andjust able to run because I think
the days before I was likereally good in avoiding
injuries, and you know, I do alot of strength training and all
that stuff that is not fun atall, but you know, you should do
it, and it's really helpful.
And and now I just had twoyears where there was many like
freak things happening and andaccidents and and bad stuff, and

(01:02:05):
yes, it's really frustratingand uh and uh disappointing, but
at the same time, I think well,I mean I could have done with
like one or two injuries less,but I also know that maybe
because it was so much, I alsojust had to learn how to deal
with it in a good way and how toovercome things.

(01:02:26):
And I think now I'm just Ithink, or hopefully for the
future, I will be much betterwith dealing with these
situations and overcoming thesesituations.
And I think I just learned alot about myself, but also
again, how why do I run?
Why is it so important for me?
And I think I mainly learned tojust relax.

(01:02:49):
And yes, waiting is hard.
I'm not the most patientperson.
Um, but I even learned that.
I I think I learned to bepatient and actually tell
myself, okay, I'm you know, I'mnot sitting in a wheelchair, I'm
not having a disease that isuncurable, whatever.
Yes, I have a stupid injury,and yes, it may take a few more

(01:03:12):
weeks or months to heal, butthere is no reason why I
shouldn't be able to do what Ilove afterwards.

Lisa Danylchuk (01:03:19):
Yeah.

Katharina Hartmuth (01:03:20):
So yes, right now maybe I need to focus
on other things, and I yeah, butrealizing hey, I I will get
there again, and also it's thereis still I'm still here, you
know, I still have other thingsthat excite me.
There is still amazing peoplethat surround me, and and I'm

(01:03:41):
still the same person with thesame value.
I don't have to, I'm not.
I just talked about it's funnybecause I just told my therapist
about it today.
I was like, I still feel like Iam an athlete and I am a
runner, even though I'm notrunning maybe because whatever
injury, but I'm I'm still thatconfident to say, hey, yes, I am

(01:04:04):
that person and it it is myidentity and I'm worth it, but I
even though I cannot show thatright now that you know I can
run well or I cannot you knowrun a race or whatever, and I'm
not doubting myself, and yeah, Ithink that's already quite an
achievement because yeah, a fewyears ago, if I would have

(01:04:25):
whatever small injury or nickel,that was a crisis.

Yes, yeah, so your response is different.
I hear acceptance in that, Ihear flexibility, right?
Patience, connection withpeople, like talking to yourself
about it, like keeping you theconfidence of like this is still
who I am, even though I'mworking on it right now, right?
I'm working with my body, butthat doesn't shake me up in the

(01:04:50):
same way that maybe it used to.

Yeah, and also not like punishing myself
for you know not being able todo something because I don't
know why, but we human beingsusually are pretty good at like
being very like kind to others,but not kind to ourselves.
Yeah, and I think I was for areally long time I was pretty

(01:05:14):
good at really not being kind tomyself, and that's something I
just I think learned in the lastyear, maybe that yeah, I really
I can be kind to myself now,and I'm not fighting myself
because something is notworking, but I'm working with
myself, you know, to like dealwith the situation.

(01:05:37):
Maybe there are some things Icannot change right now, but
what what benefit do I have if Iadditionally also make myself
feel bad, you know, and dragmyself further down?
I mean, there is no benefit atall.
Like I will only it will onlymake me feel worse.

Yeah.
So why waste maybe make yourphysical recovery actually
longer too, right?
Yeah, probably, yeah.
Yeah, totally.

And why waste time, lifetime with just
feeling bad and making myselfeven feel worse uh for something
that well just happened, and Ican there's uh it's possible for
me to change anything right nowabout you know if I can run or
not, but I can very much affectlike how I think about it, how I

(01:06:27):
deal with things, how andespecially how I think about
myself, and I can choose if I amlike punishing myself or if I'm
kind to myself and like youknow, just actually even like
feeling sorry for myself.
I think like many people cannotreally feel like sad and and

(01:06:48):
feel like okay, that that'sokay, but it it's more like oh
that's a really uncomfortablefeeling, and I don't want to
feel like that, and uh, it makesme feel weak and blah blah
blah.
And I think just being able tosay, hey, I'm I'm really sorry
that this happened.
Yeah, um but I'm also confidentthat I can get through this,

(01:07:08):
and uh yeah, I think that's justsomething yeah, that that's
certainly not easy to learn,depending on where you you know
you come from and where youstart.
But now I am now that Iactually managed to do that, I
see how valuable it is and howmuch easier it makes these

(01:07:31):
situations that are of coursestill hard, but yeah, they don't
break me anymore.
So yeah, and that's yeah, Imean there will there will
always be situations like these,and it's life, right?

It's like yeah, exactly.
Problem solving, problemsolving, detour, detour, problem
solving.
Yes, pivot here, pivot there.
Every once in a while, woohoo.
Yeah, yeah.
What would you say to someonewho's listening who wants to do
something really challenging?
It doesn't have to be running,but who's maybe on the edge of

(01:08:04):
like, oh, I really want to dothis hard thing, and I don't
know.

Just do it.
Yeah, so just try, right?
Well, just try and well,depending on what it is, but
usually ask yourself what couldpossibly go wrong.
Like what is that well, thinkabout what is the worst case
scenario, and then think aboutthat, and then you're like,
okay, maybe maybe it's actuallynot well, maybe if that would

(01:08:37):
happen, yeah, that wouldn't bethat bad.
You know, it wouldn't be theend of the world.
I yeah, like I wouldn't getsick or I couldn't die or
whatever.
Like I'm like, okay, if if thatis not like the the worst,
well, okay, we can always dieand always get sick, but if you
know, if that's not the theworst possible thing, but if if
it's more like uh oh, maybe I Itry something and I cannot do

(01:09:00):
it.
But is that like is thatactually that bad?
Yeah, maybe maybe then you'relike, okay, maybe well, not
maybe, but surely you will learna lot about yourself, and then
maybe you will try it again oryou will not.
But I mean, as long as yeah,nobody is like uh no other

(01:09:22):
people are involved that youcould harm, for example, or as
long as you can't really harmyourself with that, then just do
it, and yeah, I mean best caseit works, it makes you happy,
and and and worst case, maybe itdoesn't make you happy, then
you don't try it again.
Yeah, but really I often hadthat situation that I was like,

(01:09:44):
okay, I really am scared to trysomething, okay.
Now I think about what's theworst thing that can possibly
happen, or what what is thething that makes it scary and
that I am afraid of.
Yes.
And then really think about it,okay, uh, and why is that?
And and and then usually youget to the point where you're
like, okay, this is reallystupid.

(01:10:04):
It's just I just try to findexcuses somehow to not do
something that is maybechallenging, or maybe where I
just I mean, many people don'ttry things because they are not
sure that they can succeed.

Yes.

Um which then raises the c raises the
question, why do we have tosucceed?
Why can we not try somethingand maybe it doesn't work?
Um why do I have to be surethat something works that to
actually get something?
And I mean, yeah, it's the samething with with running, with
races.

(01:10:38):
I mean, I've had races likeTour de Jean last year where I
wasn't sure if I could finishit.
I wasn't.
Um and of course I was a bitscared of you know just having
to stop and everybody elsefinishes it.
And I feel like this idiot whojust couldn't finish it, but I
was like, okay, this iscomparatively like, yeah, like

(01:10:58):
how how bad can it be?
Um, I mean, I will not like Iwill hopefully not not die doing
it, and there will be noconsequences when I cannot
finish it.
And I mean, yeah, maybe and andalso like things like the
therapy in the beginning.
I was like, I don't know if Iwill get anywhere, but there's
only so many things that couldhappen that are really bad, so

(01:11:22):
why not just try it?
And yeah, I think that'sbecause the the problem is if we
are if there is always anexcuse in our head, or always
something that keeps us fromdoing it, like we will always
find something, we will alwaysfind the fear or like you know,
something that keeps us, orsomething where we're like,

(01:11:42):
yeah, we're not sure if we wantto do that, so maybe we
shouldn't do it.
Yeah, but if we never try it,then we will never know that
there may be something goodwaiting for us, and usually it
is the scary things that if weovercome our fear will actually
help us or like reward us withsomething positive.

Or I mean you mentioned Tour de Jean, like you
won that race.
You're like, Oh, I'm not sureif I can do it.
You're like, first place.
Yeah, but but it's true.
I it doesn't have to be aboutthat.
Like, I don't want to overexactly, but no, I think like
it's an example of it's such agreat example of not knowing and

(01:12:27):
then finding out.
And and maybe other races youfound out, oh, I'm I gotta pull
out of this race, but then youlearn something, or then you
have some sort of experiencearound it.
Like we don't always have wedon't have control, right, over
everything, but the willingnessto go, I don't know if I can do
this.
Maybe I'm gonna be that personfreezing on a bench waiting for

(01:12:49):
a ride, you know, and and whatare people gonna think of me?
And then you're like, oh, Iguess that's actually okay.
And then giving yourself thatpermission allows you to go and
and try.
And uh, and you know, I wascelebrating with you, seeing it
cross that finish line, right?

Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I mean, yeah, race is Iwould say it's relatively safe
because yeah, what what canhappen?
I mean, worst case youdisappoint yourself, and then
that's maybe something that'sworth working on, such that you
will not have that feeling inthe future anymore.
Um, yes, of course, there'sother things in life that that

(01:13:28):
are maybe a bit more risky, orwhere you're like, oh, I really
don't know if I should do it.
And like, well, I have a I Iexperienced it a few times in in
recent months with friends whoare just like, I'm really not
happy, you know, in my job andand whatever, but I I'm also
like I'm scared, you know,trying something new.
And I'm like, yeah, but youknow, you will never know if

(01:13:50):
there wasn't if there wassomething like way better
waiting for you, but you wereafraid, and then you were just
stuck in your job that didn'tmake you happy, happy forever.
And I mean, even for me now, II've been working as a scientist
for a few years, and um, but Ifelt more and more that I really
wanted to just focus on onething and just focus on running.

(01:14:13):
And now next year I willactually stop working as a
scientist for a while and onlyfocus on on the running.
And yeah, that's scary.
And it took me a while toactually be like, okay, I will
just try that, because you know,that's it's also like
especially people inSwitzerland, they will come up
and they were like, What you arelike a professional runner?

(01:14:37):
Is that even a job, you know?
Yeah, what and what happens ifyou injure yourself, blah blah
blah.
And I'm like, yeah, I I know,and and maybe it it will not
work out.
It there is a high chance thatit also does not work out, but I
still want to try it.
And I mean, yeah, worst case.
I will just again, there is theworst case.
So, what is the worst case thathappens?

(01:14:57):
Worst case that happens is itmight not work.
But I have uh my education, Ihave my degree at the
university.
I guess I would have just haveto go back and do another like
job as a scientist.
Um and that's fine too, but ifI don't try it now, I will
probably never never try itbecause you know, especially
with running, like at some pointyou I'm I I will be too old.

(01:15:18):
And um now is the point, like,yeah, now is the time to just
risk something, but you know,I'm not putting myself like in
danger.
It's just yeah, okay, I trysomething, I don't know if it
works out, it's a bit scary, butyeah, maybe yeah, I I will
never know if if if I don't try.

I think that's such an important piece.

Maybe that's like the essence, yeah.

The internal question of like, well, if you
want it, if there's something inyou that's and I always say
with these types of runs, likeyou gotta want it.
There's gotta be something inyou that wants it.
Right, otherwise you're gonnaquestion, you're gonna be like,
why am I doing this?
There's no reason.
Bye, I'm done.
Right.
And so same thing withtransitioning in your career,
like there's something in youthat wants it.
And so listening to that andbeing willing to lean in that

(01:16:06):
direction, whatever that lookslike, right?
And for you, that's like, okay,next year I'm gonna go out and
just just focus on running.
I remember actually, I I thinkthis is the first time I met
you.
Um, it was 2024, the depletionmile, where the people who run
all the volunteers run a milethe morning after it's like
another crazy layer of of ultrarunning.
My goal as a postpartum mom wasto go run the depletion mile

(01:16:29):
and not be the last person.
I think I was like the third tolast person.
I celebrated, I did like anine-minute mile at 10,000 feet
or 9,000 feet.
I was so happy.
Thank you, Katarina.
Thank you.
But we were chatting before Ithink it was before with you and
Howie just hanging out andyou're like, oh yeah, well, I

(01:16:50):
gotta catch my flight, gotta getback.
And I was like, Yeah, I gottaget back to work.
I'm like, You you just turnedhard work and you're like, no, I
gotta get back to work tomorrowmorning.
I'm like, and now you're gonnafly home to Switzerland on a
long flight after running ahundred plus miles and go to
work in the morning.
Like, I'm tired.
I was just cheering and ran onemile and like I'm not ready to

(01:17:12):
go back to work yet.
And I was just like, wow, thatis next level.
So wow.
And also, like, you I'm gladthat you're gonna have more
space for rest because put yourlegs up the wall, you know, like
have some offer.

I must admit, that was really not the
best idea I've ever had.

And there before where there's something I love,
and I'm just like, this isgonna be a red eye into a
six-year meeting, and you justdo it, and it's not it's not the
best for our bodies, like weknow that, but sometimes you
just love something so much youtake the you take the crappy
flight for it.

Totally.
I mean, yeah, I've I've learnedfrom that year, and so this
year I I took a few a couplemore days in to wind down after
the race.
And actually, I think myrecovery was so much better this
year.
Yeah.
Um we're all learning fromthat.

We're all listening to learning.
I know.
I've it took me like decades tobe like, uh put a day in
between when you return home,when you start work.
Really do it, even if you'renot running, just give yourself
a minute, it's okay.

Yeah, I I think I'm so used because I've
done this like two jobs almost.
I've done it for for quite afew years now, and I've you
know, in the meantime, Ifinished my PhD.
So I had some really likestressful times.
And as I I remember when Ifinished my PhD in the last few
weeks, I was training forWorlds, which was immediately

(01:18:36):
after I handed my in my thesis.
So, like I think in general,I'm just so used to have like a
schedule that is just full andwhere there is no breaks and
what like whatever.
And I yeah, I I can I can dothat for a certain time, but I
realized, yeah, in the last twoyears more and more that I'm

(01:18:58):
like, huh.
Well, first of all, I think Idon't have to do it, you know.
I I'm in the privilegedposition now with with the
thought that I can work less andafford it, um, which is really
cool.
And but also like experiencing,hey, actually it's quite nice
to have some breaks, yeah.
And to have those time slots inthe day where I just do well,

(01:19:23):
where neither work nor train nordo anything that is related to
training, yeah, but where I justyou know do something else,
like meet friends, uh, where Iread, where I just do nothing.
Yeah, um, I think I was alwaysa bit scared of these like like
yeah, of this uh that free timebasically.

(01:19:44):
And now experiencing, hey, thatcan actually be something
really nice, and and of courseit's like helping also with
recovery, as you say.
I mean, when I stop working atthe office, I I will not train
necessarily more, but I willrisk more, and hopefully I will
recover better and um hopefullyjust be more balanced, and I'm

(01:20:05):
sure that that will help me asan athlete to to grow and to
improve.
Um but yeah, it's I thinkbecause I was always used to
that, and I never thought abouthey, it would be actually nice,
you know, have a weekend where Idon't work, um and mental space
too, or just being able tosleep in or like to not have an

(01:20:29):
alarm clock every morning and umget that one more hour of sleep
per night, which is really likea huge benefit.
Um, yeah, so and and of course,I mean I will not get rich just
by by running only.
I mean, there is well, I'm oneof the few lucky people who can

(01:20:50):
make this their job.
Um, and yes, I give up anotherjob with another income to
pursue the uh the running, butthen I'm like, okay, maybe I
earn less, but I actually gainso much.
Like I I get all this time anduh space, and I just like

(01:21:12):
slowing down a little bit andjust having these moments where
I'm just like okay, I don't needto do anything right now, and
I'm in no rush.
I think in general that's justalso really just de-stressing,
which can only be healthy.

So I often ask people at the end, like what
brings you joy?
We know running brings you joy.
So what brings you ease?

I have to say, I uh even when I rest and
not run, whatever, I really justlike to be in nature.
Yeah, I think that really likenature has something really
calming to me.
And I'm here when I'm inSwitzerland, of course, it's
yeah, the mountains are just sobeautiful, and I really enjoy
being in the mountains.

(01:21:55):
And but I even more one reasonwhy I really like being in
Silverton around the hard rockcourse is that there it's like
it's it's remote, there's veryfew people, yeah, and you are
not only in nature, but usuallyyou are in nature on your own,
you don't have self service, youjust you can't you couldn't
even look at your phone becauseyou can't use it, so yeah, but

(01:22:18):
that's really freeing, andactually that in that moment
you're like, okay, I'm justexisting now, and I can just sit
down and look around, and it'sreally beautiful here.
And I think that's for me torelax.
I think I I actually would sayI need to be in nature.
Like for me, it doesn't workwell when I'm inside.
Yeah, of course I can lay inbed and I can I mean I I love

(01:22:42):
reading, so I I I can lay inbed, have a nice book, and
that's also that is also notbad, but I think to actually
really unwind and come down, Ithink yeah, nature is just
that's what helps me.
Yeah, because there's stilllike some energy and there's
still something around you, andmaybe you maybe there's some

(01:23:02):
birds you can hear, or like thewind, and whatever, and it's
just I feel like in nature Inever I've had many phases in
life where I felt really lonely,but I never felt lonely in
nature.
Yes, I think that's just againconnection, but not a human
connection, but just theconnection to whatever is around

(01:23:23):
you.
Yeah, I think that is somethingthat uh yeah, I really like,
and that is really just helpfuland relaxing.

Yeah, I totally feel that too.
And yeah, you're connectingwith the mountains when you're
out there, you're connectingwith the nature when you're
resting, and just being withyourself, and it sounds like
you're moving into a differentseason, it's gonna be a little
bit of a different way, a littlemore space.
Yeah, so I'm excited for that.
And I wish you well with yourfoot and working through all of

(01:23:55):
that.
And how can people connect withyou if they want to follow your
journey?

I think the easiest is if people follow me
on Instagram.
Okay.
So just Google my name and youwill find my handle.

Yeah.

And yeah, I think that that's the easiest.
Um, because I'm not like I'mnot active on Facebook anymore.
Um, so yeah, Instagram is theway to connect.
And I I try to share a bit ofmy journey there.
Usually not right now, becausewhen I do my off-season, I
usually also do like anoff-season on social media.
So I may not post anything inNovember, but I will be back

(01:24:31):
there as soon as I resume um mypreparation for the next season.
And yeah, if you are a runneror triathlete or whatever and
you're interested in mytraining, you can also have a
look at Strava.
Um I have a public profilethere, and yeah, if some people
want some motivation orinspiration or just are curious

(01:24:54):
what I do when I'm not injured.
Yes, or maybe even when I'minjured, because then I still,
yeah, and learning there too.
I share not all my sessions,but I would say like 90% of my
sessions.

Nice.
Anything you're willing toshare about what your plans are
for next year?
Will we see you at Hard Rock?

Well, I mean, I would love to be back,
of course.
My name is in the lottery, butuh yeah, it's hard rock, and
I've been lucky enough to bepicked by the race director the
last few years, which of coursewill not happen again.
So now I need to get into thelottery, and yeah, well, of
course, I don't know if that canhappen.
I mean, I am a three-timefinisher, so I have uh slightly

(01:25:36):
higher chances than uh thanother people, but yeah, I mean I
will be there.
Yes, I cannot not be there, butI'm well, yeah, I don't know
yet if I I will be able to run,but yeah, I want to start my
next season actually uh with theTransgrand Canaria.

Okay.

Grand Canaria Island at the beginning
of March.
And then I will in the spring,I will most likely do a personal
project.
It's not fixed yet, which iswhy I will not share plans just
yet.
But by the end of the year, I Ishould uh should be able to
talk about it.
And yeah, then I will yeah,spend a few weeks in the US and

(01:26:14):
hopefully race there.
If I don't raise hard work,then I raise something else.
Yeah, and then I will go back,and actually, my main goal for
next year is to run a tour dejour again.
Nice uh in September, becauselast year it was about
finishing, and now I know I cando that.

Yes.

So now I set myself a different challenge.

Yes, I love it.

I want to go back there and and then I will
maybe do another race inNovember because UTMB.
If I if you want to run UTMBagain at some point, then you
know, with the qualification,you need to run a race in their
series.
So maybe I do a late race umjust to have the qualifier for
the next year.
But um, yeah, that's that's notfixed yet either.

(01:26:56):
But but yeah, Tor is isdefinitely the big goal next
year.

Yeah, well, look for me with like uh two, I
guess she'll be three at thatpoint, three-year-old in my
arms.
So I promise Alex.
If you hear that that's me.
No, no, it's like at the end ofyour documentary.
You can see me and my daughteron the sidelines, and then you
hear me go, ooh, I was like, Oh,that's awesome.

So now I have to re-watch it.

We're just oh no, no, it's just a little
corner of my shirt.
You're not even gonna probablysee it.
But but I just want to likecelebrate you.
I so admire you as an athleteand a person.
Thank you for sharingeverything you shared here today
and for the documentary, justbeing honest about your
experience and the healingthat's come through running and
therapy and other pathways,nature.
I'm I think you know, otherpeople just benefit from hearing

(01:27:44):
that and just yeah, so admireall of that about you.
Thank you.

Thank you so much.
It was a great pleasure to notonly talk about running, but
also a bit about you know mentalhealth and and my journey.
Yeah, it was it was reallynice.

Yeah, we're all we're all here rooting for you.
Thank you.
Thank you, Katharina.
Thank you so much forlistening.
Now, I'd really love to hearfrom you.
What resonated with you in thisepisode and what's on your mind
and in your heart as we bringthis conversation to a close?

(01:28:22):
Email me at info at how we canheal.com or share your answers
and what's been healing for youin the comments on Instagram, or
you'll find me at how we canheal.
Don't forget to go tohowwecanheal.com to sign up for
email updates as well.
You'll also find additionaltraining, tons of free
resources, and the fulltranscript of each and every

(01:28:44):
show.
If you love the show, pleaseleave us a review on Apple,
Spotify, Audible, or whereveryou're listening to this podcast
right now.
If you're watching on YouTube,be sure to like and subscribe
and keep sharing the shows youlove the most with all of your
friends.
Visit how we can heal.comforward slash podcast to share

(01:29:04):
your thoughts and ideas for theshow.
I always, always love hearingfrom you.
Before we wrap up for today, Iwant to be super clear that this
podcast isn't offeringprescriptions.
It's not advice, nor is it anykind of mental health treatment
or diagnosis.
Your decisions are in yourhands, and I encourage you to

(01:29:25):
consult with any healthcareprofessionals you may need to
support you through your uniquepath of healing.
In addition, everyone's opinionhere is their own, and opinions
can change.
Guests share their thoughts,not that of the host or
sponsors.
I'd like to thank our gueststoday, everyone who helped

(01:29:45):
support this podcast directlyand indirectly.
Alex, thanks for taking care ofthe babe and taking the fur
babies out while I record.
Last and never least, I'd liketo give a special shout out to
my big brother Matt, who passedaway in 2002.
He wrote this music and itmakes my heart so very happy to
share it with you here.

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