August 18, 2025 • 58 mins
Dr. Judith Herman, a towering figure in trauma studies and author of the landmark books "Trauma and Recovery" and "Truth and Repair," takes us on a journey through the evolution of trauma understanding from the 1970s—when we didn't even have terminology for what victims experienced—to today's complex landscape of healing and justice.
Drawing from decades of clinical work and research with survivors, Dr. Herman reveals how trauma exists within frameworks of dominance and subordination that permeate every level of human organization. "Whenever you have a dominant group and a subordinate group, especially when that dominance is deeply embedded in cultures and traditions, ultimately that dominance is enforced by violence," she explains. This perspective illuminates why healing cannot happen in isolation from addressing social power structures.
Perhaps most revolutionary are her findings about what survivors actually want from justice systems. Through interviews with 30 trauma survivors, she discovered that punishment of offenders—the primary offering of our criminal justice system—ranked surprisingly low on survivors' priority lists. Instead, survivors unanimously desired public acknowledgment of what happened, particularly from bystanders rather than perpetrators. They wanted the harm recognized and denounced by their communities. As one survivor powerfully stated, "I think he'd get a kick out of talking about what he did. He wouldn't really be sorry."
Dr. Herman's wisdom extends beyond analysis to action. She advocates for small community groups as starting points for change, emphasizing that healing happens in connection with others. "You can't do it alone," she reminds us. Her mother's saying—"activism is the antidote to despair"—continues to guide her vision for a world built on relationships of equality and mutuality rather than dominance and submission.
Join us for this profound conversation with a true pioneer whose work has transformed how we understand trauma, healing, and the pursuit of justice. Listen, share, and be part of the movement toward a more trauma-informed society.
---
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In this free 60-minute training, I’ll guide you through a compassionate process of identifying trauma and exploring a path forward. Together, we’ll connect with the inner resources and resilience that make healing possible, so you can move beyond surviving and begin to truly thrive.
In this session, we’ll explore:
✨What trauma is and how to recognize it - understanding the signs and patterns that may be shaping your life.
✨Pathways through trauma - tools and approaches to help you find your way forward with compassion.
✨Resilience and psychological resources - practices to strengthen your inner foundation for growth and healing.
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This hour together is an opportunity to learn, reflect, and connect with the deeper strengths that are already within you. Whether you’re new to this work or looking to deepen your practice, you’ll leave with practical insights and supportive practices you can carry into your daily life.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lisa Danylchuk (00:02):
Welcome back to the how we Can Heal podcast.
Today, our guest is Dr JudithHerman.
Dr Judith Herman is a part-timesenior lecturer in psychiatry
at Harvard Medical School.
For 30 years, until retirement,she was director of training at
the Victims of Violence Programat the Cambridge Hospital in
Cambridge, Massachusetts.
She's the author of theaward-winning books Trauma and
(00:25):
Recovery and Father-DaughterIncest, and her newest book,
truth and Repair how TraumaSurvivors Envision Justice, was
published in 2023 and called bythe New York Times a beautiful,
profound and important book.
She's received numerous awards,including a Guggenheim
Fellowship in 1984 and the 1996Lifetime Achievement Award from
(00:48):
the International Society forTraumatic Stress Studies.
In 2007, she was named aDistinguished Life Fellow of the
American PsychiatricAssociation.
Dr Herman is recognizednationally and internationally
as a pioneer in the field oftraumatic stress, both for her
research contributions and forher conceptual work.
(01:09):
Today, she shares how trauma isdeeply embedded into social
structures, highlighting howtyranny and patriarchy
contribute to violence, harm andtrauma and make recovery
difficult.
She also shares what she'slearned from decades working
directly with victims and fromher interviews and research with
(01:31):
survivors, specifically aboutjustice and repair.
She's a legend in her own right, so I'm honored to have this
conversation and to share ithere with you today.
Please join me in welcoming DrJudith Herman to the show.
Share it here with you today.
Please join me in welcoming DrJudith Herman to the show.
I'm Dr Judith Herman to the howwe Can Heal podcast.
(01:53):
I'm so excited and delightedand thrilled to have you here
today.
Thank you for having me.
Yes, I'd love to go back to thebeginning and just learn about
when you first heard about,learned about the word trauma
and when it became a part ofyour reality, because it's been
such a big part of your writingand your life and your teaching.
So I'm curious when did youfirst hear about it?
Dr. Judith Herman (02:17):
Well, we didn't have.
Probably I could date this to1970.
Okay, and that year two thingshappened.
I had joined aconsciousness-raising group,
(02:37):
actually in 69.
And then in July 1970, Istarted my psychiatric residency
, and the consciousness-raisinggroup that I belonged to was
(02:59):
certainly a very privilegeddemographic, all white,
college-educated women.
But even in that demographicpeople were sharing stories of
sexual assault and sexualharassment, intimate partner
(03:19):
violence.
We didn't have those terms then.
None of that was named backthen.
The first speak out on rape andthe consciousness raising groups
then led to public disclosures.
The first rape, I think,happened around 1970.
(03:41):
And at the same time, when Istarted my residency, I was
assigned to an inpatient unit.
My very first two patients werewomen who had made suicide
(04:03):
attempts.
Yeah, and both of them gavehistories of father-daughter
incest and one of them, inaddition, had escaped from her
father by marrying as a teenagerto a man who became extremely
abusive, as is often, it turnsout, often the case.
(04:28):
Yeah, People who are physicallyor sexually abused as kids are
between two and four times aslikely to be re-victimized.
Yep, adolescents or adults.
You really can't get higherthan four times as high, because
the baseline's around 25percent.
(04:48):
So right and anyway.
She said, you know he was goingto kill her anyway.
So she was might as well get itover with.
Well, and so you, here was mytextbook, saying that incest
occurred in one case per million.
So what do you think were theodds that an absolute newbie
(05:12):
would get two cases in a month?
Yeah, so I mean, we didn't havethe word trauma then.
It wasn't until 1980.
Them, it wasn't until 1980,basically, when, thanks to the
organizing of Vietnam VeteransAgainst the War, post-traumatic
stress disorder was recognizedas a real diagnosis in the
(05:38):
diagnostic manual.
And, by the way, they had avery similar organizing process
where they began with what theycalled wrap groups that were
organized outside of the VA orthe health or mental health
system because they didn't trustthe VA, trust the VA.
(06:10):
And in fact my colleague,robert J Lifton, was a
psychiatrist who early on was afacilitator for some of those
rap groups and he wrote a bookcalled Home from the War about
Vietnam veterans and it wastheir testimony that you know.
They went again from sharingtheir stories in a small
confidential group to publicspeaking out publicly and saying
(06:34):
we're home from Vietnam, but inour heads we're still there.
Yeah, and so that's how traumaentered the lexicon.
Lisa Danylchuk (06:44):
How did you learn how to work with it when
there's no word for it, likewhat taught you?
Or who did you go to in theearly days as a newbie, with two
inside spaces right in front ofyou, like where do you go?
What do you do?
Dr. Judith Herman (07:00):
Well, I did have my women's group.
That was an enormous source ofsupport, yes, and luckily I also
had supervisors who took itseriously.
I have to share this storydomestic violence seriously,
(07:22):
because my patient, who wasmarried to this very abusive man
, said she was afraid of him,she didn't want him visiting on
the unit, yeah, and so thenurses wouldn't let him in and
(07:46):
he didn't like that one bit.
At a certain point he got inand he threatened the male unit
director, male psychiatrist, younever saw the police get there
so fast, oh, okay.
Lisa Danylchuk (08:02):
Yeah.
Dr. Judith Herman (08:03):
So after that they took her seriously when
she said he was going to killher.
You know, because of course thethings it takes right, he'd
never seen the police.
I mean, the police were callednumerous times to her home and
they always just took him for awalk around the block.
You know, never made an arrest.
But when he threatened a malepsychiatrist, oh that was a
(08:24):
different story.
So interesting, I hadsupervisors who did take it
seriously.
The other thing was when theystarted talking about it and
somebody believed them andsupported them, they got better.
Yeah, you know.
Lisa Danylchuk (08:39):
Yeah.
Dr. Judith Herman (08:40):
And they stopped being suicidal and their
depression lifted.
I mean, there was no such thingas battered women's shelter
back then, so the patientbasically used the hospital as a
de facto shelter.
And you know the firsttransition house in Cambridge,
which was either the first orsecond battered women's shelter,
(09:04):
mr Second Ratted Women'sShelter put it in 1976.
Could have been 73.
Boston Area Rape Crisis Centerstarted in 73.
So I mean, and all of thesewere organizations completely
developed by grassrootsvolunteers outside the
healthcare and mental healthsystems.
When I eventually started towork at Cambridge Hospital,
(09:28):
which was a Harvard teachinghospital, we started the Victims
of Violence program.
Basically, we invited thegrassroots organizers to join
our staff because they had theknowledge base that was
completely missing in the mentalhealth system so they could
bring their education intogether.
Lisa Danylchuk (09:50):
I'm curious, just given your long history and
dedication to this field, goingback to times when we didn't
have the word trauma, when thereweren't any places for people
experiencing intimate partnerviolence to go, how do you feel
about the progress we've made inthe last four or five decades
in this field, in mental healthand trauma specifically?
Dr. Judith Herman (10:15):
Well, it's two steps forward, one step back
, or sometimes one step forward.
Two steps back, I meancertainly in terms of public
awareness of gender violence.
We're in a very different place.
Yes, I mean, you know, with thesecond wave of consciousness
(10:38):
raising and speak outs and thatled to a lot of good
epidemiological research andscientific publications.
And then another round with theMe Too movement, the awareness
of the endemic nature ofexploitation of women and
children is much greater.
(11:00):
No question about that.
The effective response is awork in progress.
We've had important stepsforward, like the Victims of
Crime Act and Violence AgainstWomen Act, and then VAWA hasn't
been renewed and a lot of theVictims of Crime Act funding
(11:22):
that went for grassroots crisisservices and so on has been cut
back, and so in terms ofavailability of grassroots
services, that's kind offluctuates.
Yeah, the legal system responsehas been very minimal.
(11:46):
Probably the biggestbreakthrough is having victim
witness advocates in the courtsand having civil straining
orders for domestic violence.
Those were two big achievements.
Yeah, were too big achievements,yeah, but in terms of basically
making you know, the trackrecord in terms of treating
(12:17):
gender violence as a crime isstill pathetic.
I mean, rape is supposedly afelony.
In fact, if you look at thepercentage of cases that get
reported to law enforcement,which covers around 20, 25%, and
(12:44):
then you then look at casescleared by arrest, cases
accepted for prosecution, casesresulting in conviction, you
basically have an exponentialdecay curve on what you see in
terms of conviction ratecompared to the actual
(13:05):
prevalence of rape.
Maybe maximum 5% of rape cases,probably more like 2% to 3%.
Yeah, you know, because, unlessit's, you know the fantasy of a
Black stranger raping a prettyblonde virgin teenager, which is
(13:32):
extremely rare.
Most rape, you know, those arepursued very vigorously.
Yeah, most rapes are committednot by strangers but by
acquaintances or inmates.
Most rapes are committed by.
You know, once it's someone thevictim knows.
(13:52):
Yeah, then you know it becomesand there are no witnesses, it
becomes he said, she said, andhe doesn't look like a
stereotypic demon rapist.
He's, you know, just a fineyoung man with a promising
(14:15):
career ahead of him, a goodathlete.
Lisa Danylchuk (14:18):
A lot of benefit of the doubt given to a
perpetrator and little to anygiven to the victim.
Dr. Judith Herman (14:27):
Well, the victim is really from the trial.
Let's face it.
Why was she wearing that dress?
How many beers did?
Lisa Danylchuk (14:33):
she have.
You talk in your recent book,truth and Repair, about so many
dynamics that set the stage forthis, and you share an important
thought across your writingthat trauma is often suppressed
because it threatens socialpower structures, and I think
that's a really powerful message.
(14:54):
And in your book, which waspublished in 2023, truth and
Repair, you talk about tyrannyand patriarchy and the
relationship between the two.
And so, since we're talkingabout rape and we're talking
about gender violence in thisway and the justice system, how
it responds, what do you thinkeveryone needs to understand
(15:14):
about tyranny, like what thatlooks like, how it sets the
stage for trauma.
Dr. Judith Herman (15:21):
Well, tyranny is about a relationship of
dominance and subordination.
It's about the powerful rule,the weak submit.
The bystanders look the otherway because they're either
intimidating themselves theydon't want to get involved
because then they'll get coveredor they're going along for the
(15:46):
ride and collaborating,basically, facilitating their
accomplices basically.
And that type of relationshipof dominance and subordination
exists at every level of humanorganization.
(16:06):
So it exists in intimaterelationships and family
relationships.
Yeah, Can exist.
It exists in workplaces, itexists in the nation state and
it exists in religiousorganizations.
(16:27):
Yeah, whether the dominance andsubordination are based on
gender or race or caste or classor religion, where the strong
(16:55):
rule, the weak submit and thebystanders basically try to stay
out of it.
Lisa Danylchuk (17:03):
Yeah.
Dr. Judith Herman (17:04):
And the only way to to change that, as if the
bystanders actually ally withthe victims, the bystanders.
Lisa Danylchuk (17:17):
Ally with the victims yeah, not the
perpetrators, yeah.
Dr. Judith Herman (17:22):
So that's why you use social movement, yes,
to affect change in thetyrannical system.
Lisa Danylchuk (17:30):
Yes, and I want to talk more about affecting
that change and where we can putour energy.
I think there's as a result oftechnology, as a result of
politics and other things, wecan feel really fragmented and
distracted and busy all the time.
I want to talk about how toinvest our energy in that
(17:52):
positive change, but before weget there, I think sometimes
when we start talking aboutterms you know I'm interviewing
Dr Tama Bryant on this podcasttoo, and she talks a little bit
about when people say decolonial, people get triggered like,
well, what is that?
Maybe don't fully get what itmeans.
And she'll be like well, areyou for slavery, Are you for
(18:15):
oppressing other people?
Because if you're notcomfortable talking about
decolonializing, then that'sreally what you're advocating
for, these harmful dynamics.
And then the people go no, no,I don't want that.
So I think it's similar withpatriarchy where, depending on
the ears that are hearing it,people might start to just glaze
over or shut down or it's toobig or it's too ingrained in
(18:37):
cultures around the world.
So can we clarify when we'retalking about tyranny and we're
talking about dominance andsubordination, how does
patriarchy fit in in terms oftrauma?
How is that perpetuating theharm that's done and the
difficulty in recovery.
Dr. Judith Herman (18:56):
Whenever you have a dominant group and a
subordinate group, andespecially when that dominance
and subordination are deeplyembedded in the cultures and the
traditions.
Ultimately that dominance isenforced by violence.
The methods, of course, ofcontrol are always the same,
(19:17):
whether you're talking about afamily, whether you're talking
about a religious cult, whetheryou're talking about a slave
plantation.
Ultimately, the enforcementcomes down to violence.
And there are many othermethods of enforcement.
Violence doesn't have to beused very often, it just has to
(19:38):
be very persuasive when it isused.
Yes, so you know, if you wantto keep women subordinate,
you've got to make an example ofsome of them and you've got to
instill fear in all of them.
So you know, don't you dare goout at night, or don't you dare
(20:00):
wear a short dress, or don't youdare try to participate in
activities where women are notsupposed to be participating.
Lisa Danylchuk (20:16):
Someone was just asking me recently.
I lived in Italy for a year, inBologna, and they asked if I
dated while I was there and Iwas like, oh, not really I dated
this one person.
And then he said he was goingto a soccer game, football match
.
Oh, I'd love to go.
Oh, no, women can't go there.
I would take a woman to afootball game.
And I was like I think we'redone here, that's enough.
(20:40):
I've heard enough.
Even if it is people aredrinking and fighting, that's
okay.
I can go to the soccer match ifI want to.
Dr. Judith Herman (20:51):
But I mean, you know, when they started
doing research on sexual assaulton college campuses, for
example, and you know thatdemographic is at the peak age
for vulnerability and surprise,surprise fraternities, you know
(21:11):
all male spaces, male-controlledspaces, were high-risk spaces.
The fraternities and footballteams basically have their own
tyrannical initiation rights forthe members, the male members.
(21:33):
But then once they've formedthe fraternity and they've
bonded as a male group, thenthey practice those same methods
on women.
That's why you get the partywhere the freshman girls are
invited and the punch is spikedand the wombs are set aside.
Lisa Danylchuk (21:56):
So the harm just gets passed down and the
pattern of dominance andsubordination starts with the
initiation and the fraternityand then goes on to impact Right
.
Dr. Judith Herman (22:06):
Where, interestingly too, that with a
lot of the bystanderintervention prevention work
with young men, one of the youngmen are scared of being
targeted by other men too.
Lisa Danylchuk (22:20):
Yeah, a faggot, a wuss, a bitch if they don't go
along so when you think aboutthese dynamics of tyranny and
patriarchy and dominance andsubordination across genders
right, you were just talkingabout men hazing men and you
talked about how it shows up inthe workplace right, it can show
up across people when you thinkabout that shifting or going
(22:46):
away, the problematic dynamicsending, what words do you have
to describe what a healthydynamic and culture looks like,
one that supports traumarecovery, one that supports
prevention of trauma, one that'sjust healthier for everyone?
Dr. Judith Herman (23:04):
A contrast with a relationship of tyranny
is a relationship of equality ormutuality.
Yeah, and again, that happenson every level of relationship,
even in families where, ofcourse, parents have much more
power and knowledge thanchildren.
You don't have equality, butyou can have a lot of mutuality,
(23:28):
even from a very early age.
In fact, that's how childrenform safe attachments and are
socialized.
So that's a very basic form ofrelationship that allows us to
live with one another.
And so you look forrelationships of social equality
(23:56):
where the rules are, everybodyhas a voice, everybody gets
respect, everybody gets toparticipate in decision-making
and the decisions are made bynegotiation and compromise
rather than imposing oneperson's will all of that feels
(24:19):
so important and resonates as Iraise my daughter toddlers
really you can negotiate, yeah.
What a toddler learns is youcan't always get what you want,
but but you can get.
How do the Rolling Stones putit?
You get what you need, you know, yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (24:41):
So I'm curious if we're taking steps towards
equality.
Obviously, I thinkunderstanding trauma helps.
Understanding these dynamics,like seeing it seems to be one
of the first steps.
We're swimming in these powerstructures.
Dr. Judith Herman (24:59):
Right, yeah, and you've got to make it and
raise awareness before you doanything else.
Lisa Danylchuk (25:03):
So through the work you've done, your books,
lots of people I think that seeit are trying to send that
message out and say look what'shappening in this dynamic and
look how it's harmful.
So the awareness and theeducation is really important.
A lot of folks that listen tothis podcast are mental health
professionals, are in thewellness space, are helpers and
(25:24):
healers and people Mr Rogerssays to look for in the world.
So for those of us that see itand maybe just have a hard time
maintaining energy forward, whatwould you say can anchor us in
moving towards that equality?
(25:44):
What's the vision?
And maybe, if there's stepsthat come to mind like things we
can do on the daily, on theweekly, on the yearly, what can
we do to continue?
Dr. Judith Herman (25:54):
can we do to continue having your own support
group?
Lisa Danylchuk (25:56):
yeah, you can't do it alone.
And what are steps that take asocial group towards more?
Dr. Judith Herman (26:04):
equality.
You know, I do think the smallgroup group where you start with
, where everybody is right now.
Lisa Danylchuk (26:15):
Yeah.
Dr. Judith Herman (26:17):
Whether you're talking about a
consciousness raising group or arap group or in the civil
rights movement, they had thesefreedom schools where people
came and again just talked aboutthe realities of their lives,
and that was the beginning ofcommunity organizing.
Start with people where theyare.
(26:38):
Yeah, yeah, what can I do aboutclimate change?
It's just a worldwide problem.
It's having to do with oil, allgargoyle.
I mean, how do you start?
Well, what's happening in yourlocal community?
Yeah, no, you probably can'ttake on the Saudis and the
(27:03):
United Emirates and Putin, andnot to mention our own oligarchs
, but there's probably somestuff going on in your community
.
Lisa Danylchuk (27:16):
Yeah, and that's , I think, where you begin yeah,
in your book you talk about andthese are chapter titles too
you talk about acknowledgement,apology, accountability,
especially when we're talkingabout the layers of trauma, the
specific trauma that happens toa single victim or group of
(27:38):
victims, and the layers outright.
I feel like those are reallyimportant takeaways for folks in
the justice system, for folkswho are working with survivors,
but also for anyone and everyoneto understand the inner
workings of how much trauma canharm the power structures that
create that environment andallow for it, but also to find
(28:00):
this roadmap through when you'reinterviewing folks.
I think there were 30 survivorsthat you interviewed for Truth
and Repair.
What are some of the things youwish?
Everyone knew that you gathereddirectly from those survivors.
Dr. Judith Herman (28:19):
Well, I think the sort of main take-home
message was that what thejustice system offers as
resolutions for crimes was not avery good fit with what victims
(28:42):
said they wanted.
Because for the criminaljustice system, what it offers
as a successful outcome ispunishment of the offender, and
that turned out to be pretty fardown the list of what most
(29:03):
survivors wanted.
And then what the civil justicesystem offers is money.
Civil justice system offers ismoney, and that also turned out
to be not top of the list formany survivors.
(29:24):
What the survivors wanted mostand in fact this was unanimous
30 out of 30 interviewees saidthey wanted acknowledgement,
public acknowledgement, and itwas more important to them to
get the acknowledgement from thebystanders than it was to get
the acknowledgement from theperpetrator.
(29:45):
They were prepared for the factthat the perpetrator might go
right on denying it.
Lisa Danylchuk (29:50):
Yeah that the perpetrator might go right on
denying it?
Dr. Judith Herman (29:52):
Yeah, but they wanted the bystanders to
believe them, yeah, and theywanted not only acknowledgement
of the facts but acknowledgementof the harm and acknowledgement
that this was wrong.
Yeah, because oftentimes denialis always the first level of
(30:19):
defense, but if you've got DNAevidence, for example, right,
the next level is.
So what's the big deal?
Yeah, it's over.
Let's forgive and forget.
So, acknowledging the harm, I'macknowledging that the crime
(30:40):
occurred.
Yeah, they wanted thebystanders to recognize the harm
and denounce the crime, andthey wanted the perpetrators
exposed so that the bystandershad limits.
Yes, for happening again.
That was top of the list.
Lisa Danylchuk (31:02):
Yeah.
Dr. Judith Herman (31:02):
People and so punishment.
A lot of people just basicallysaid what good is that going to
do me?
Yeah, you know that's not goingto fix anything.
Yeah, they were also not veryexcited about forgiveness.
They were not into let'sforgive and forget.
(31:23):
In fact they were afraid of.
I mean, there were exceptions.
There were some people who hadactually had confrontations with
the perpetrator, where theperpetrator genuinely apologized
and showed genuine remorse.
(31:44):
And then you know one woman whowrote about how forgiveness was
just spontaneous.
It wasn't something you had towork at, it was just.
She saw this genuine remorseand it was like a weight was
lifted from her shoulders.
But those were rare cases Moreoften.
(32:08):
Another incest survivor who Iinterviewed said I think he'd
get a kick out of talking aboutwhat he did.
He wouldn't really be sorry,he'd admit it, but he'd relish
it.
And then, if he did admit it,my family would want me to
forgive him and I don't want todo that.
And I think there was evenamong the clergy people that I
(32:33):
interviewed that it's just tooeasy to pressure the victims to
forgive.
It's a lot harder to actuallyget the perpetrators to change
and get them to a place ofremorse and contrition and in
fact, mostly we don't know howto do that because we've never
(32:54):
invested in any kind of seriousrehabilitation effort and we
don't even know what the trueprevalence is in terms of
offending and let alone the sortof spectrum of offenders, some
of whom might well be goodcandidates for rehabilitation,
(33:14):
and others who are truesociopaths and repeat offenders.
You really would have tosegregate them.
The only way to keep thecommunity safe would be to
supervise them all the time.
So they didn't want punishment,they didn't want forgiveness
(33:35):
and money damages.
People were very conflictedabout the money.
Lisa Danylchuk (33:42):
Yeah.
Dr. Judith Herman (33:42):
Because, on the one hand, people said, how
much money have I spent ondoctors and healthcare and
hospitals, on doctors and dentalhealth care and hospitals but
on the other hand, it would feellike dirty money.
Yeah well, I didn't want tofeel like they've been bought
(34:02):
and, of course, especially thevictims of trafficking who
haven't sold really didn't wantme, the money just felt
contaminated.
There was one rape victim Iinterviewed who it was one of
these cases where she did reportto the police.
I mean, it was a formerboyfriend who she had broken up
(34:26):
with and he raped her when shewent to his apartment to
retrieve some of her artworkhe's an artist To basically
punish her for breaking up withhim.
And she did report him topolice.
The DA declined to prosecutebecause he said she said that
(34:48):
they had a prior sexualrelationship so he was going to
claim consent.
But she did file a civil suitand he was found liable.
And what came?
Time for her to say what shewanted in money damages.
She said she wanted him to give$30 to the local rape crisis
(35:15):
center and the $30 representedthe 30 pieces of silver for
which Judas had betrayed Jesus.
And I said to her the guy had alot of money, you could have
asked him to give $30,000 to therape crisis center.
She said you know, I didn'teven think that the money was
(35:39):
symbolic, but there is andpeople should know about this.
It's not nearly as well knownas it should be.
The Victims of Crime Act has aprovision it should be.
The Victims of Crime Act has aprovision.
(36:00):
It created what's called atrust fund, which is a fund not
based on taxpayer revenues buton fines levied on convicted
offenders, unconvicted offenders, and the money goes into a big
pot which is then distributed.
There's both on the federallevel and then there are state
level, and survivorrepresentatives sit on the
(36:26):
advisory boards that determinehow the funds are allocated.
So it's like offenders as agroup giving back to victims as
a group yes, but there's notthat sort of personal your
offender giving money to youyeah.
(36:47):
It also eliminates the thingthat for civil damages, some
offenders have lots of money anda lot of them don't have any
money.
So, and the monies will go forthree things Direct victim
compensation for time lost fromwork or medical expenses.
It also pays salaries forvictim witness advocates in the
(37:11):
courts Good.
It also pays salaries forvictim witness advocates in the
courts Good.
And a lot of grant funds go tovictim services like women's
shelters, rape crisis centers.
At our Victims of Violenceprogram for years we had focus
support for a free homicidebereavement service that
(37:31):
includes home visiting andsupport groups.
We had money for hospital-basedvictim advocates, which I think
is a great idea, you know, tohave an advocate in the
emergency room that when you seethe advocate the dogs don't
know how to get a restrainingorder or how to link victims up
(37:56):
with services, but the advocatesdo, and the advocates will
either accompany the victim tocourt and things like that.
So we had the hospital-basedadvocates and then for a while
we also had a community crisisservice that trained community
(38:20):
volunteers so that when therewas something like a shooting in
a school they could have acrisis response that wasn't just
some strange professionalparachuting in, but where
community organizations couldprovide some direction to
(38:42):
organize a crisis response.
So it was a very creative wayto hold perpetrators as a group
accountable to make restitution.
Lisa Danylchuk (38:54):
And for victims to be able to receive the
support without that direct lineto someone who harmed them, or
feeling that the money istainted or somehow not wanting
to ask that right.
Dr. Judith Herman (39:07):
Yeah, because a lot of people want anything
to do with this person.
Lisa Danylchuk (39:10):
Yeah, yeah, no connection.
Yeah, yeah, so you learned somuch from these victims you've
interviewed, from people you'vesupported throughout your career
?
Was there anything surprisingthat came up in these interviews
that you learned from victimsthat, even with all all your
(39:30):
experience, caught you off guard?
Dr. Judith Herman (39:35):
I was actually a little bit surprised,
although not totally, becausevictims are so often stereotyped
as vengeful or just out formoney or, you know, just out for
(40:00):
blood.
I did ask I mean, these weresemi-structured interviews I,
you know, mostly just said ifyou could write the script and
you had the power to dictateexactly what happened, what
would be ideal, what wouldrepresent justice in your mind?
(40:21):
But I did ask specificallyabout revenge, because in our
criminal justice system victimsare quite marginal.
It's the state that'sconsidered the injured party and
that's why the prosecutor hasthe power to decide whether to
(40:43):
go forward with pressing charges, and a lot of the rationale for
that is that if you left it tovictims there would just be
blood feuds.
I did a training, a day-longcourse, one time at the American
Psychiatric Association annualmeeting, with a very well-known
(41:08):
forensic psychiatrist about howto be an expert witness in court
.
He opened the morning sessionwith.
He put up a great big side ofthe Hatfields of the McCoys,
these mountain men with theirmustaches and their rifles
across their knees, looking veryfierce, and he said why do we
(41:33):
have courts?
You may naively think that wehave courts to read out justice
or to establish the truth.
The real reason is so that wecan resolve disputes without
firearms.
Lisa Danylchuk (41:50):
Okay, is so that we can resolve disputes without
fireworks, okay, and he said so.
Dr. Judith Herman (42:00):
Anything short of that is you know it's
an adversarial system and so beprepared to be verbally attacked
and humiliated and you know ifyou have any skeletons in your
closet.
Forget about being an expertwitness, because anything short
(42:24):
of a physical attack is allowed.
A physical attack is allowed,yeah, but the state is in charge
, because if you didn't have thestate in charge, you'd have the
Hatfields and the McCoys, andso that's the stereotype that
victims are going to be muchmore bloodthirsty and out for
(42:48):
revenge than a judge or a jury.
So I did ask all my informantsabout revenge, and they all have
revenge fantasies, but mostlythey hated their revenge
fantasies.
They felt like this isn'treally me.
This is like a disgustingresidue of seeing the hate up
(43:15):
close.
In fact, the woman artist Idescribed when I asked her about
revenge fantasy, she said she'dhad these nightmares all the
time where she was shooting therapist.
She had one where a dinosaurcame and tromped on the rapist,
(43:37):
and in her dreams she wasdelighted, and when she woke up
she was disgusted and felt like,oh, this is the last thing I
want in my life.
Lisa Danylchuk (43:49):
Yeah, more violence.
Dr. Judith Herman (43:55):
Interestingly enough, her husband.
I interviewed him also.
He was not ambivalent about hisrevenge fantasies at all.
Yeah, he wanted to kill the guy, yeah, and I found that to be
fairly generally true that thevictims, who had really seen
this up close, didn't want anypart of it, yeah, and felt very
(44:17):
ashamed of their own revengefantasies and like they were ego
, alien.
And, in fact, one of the nicethings that happens in that we
do a lot of group therapybecause, again, groups, small
groups, survivor groups, arejust so healing.
But if they're well structuredand well run and one of the
things that happens often latein the group, when people have
(44:40):
bonded sufficiently, is theyeach other's revenge fantasies.
I have a transcript of onemeeting where this woman says
(45:00):
first she says she'd just liketo scratch his face, and the
other group members say, really,is that all Well?
Actually, is that all Well?
Actually I had this idea aboutgetting a baseball bat and
(45:21):
kneecapping him, and so then thegroup goes yeah well, maybe you
should do that with the buscoming.
Lisa Danylchuk (45:32):
I love the fierce protective anger on the
other person you know, and bythat time they're all laughing
hysterically because it becomesfunny instead of a burden.
Dr. Judith Herman (45:40):
It becomes sort of like they know they're
just fantasies, they know thatit's silly, but they can have a
laugh together.
Lisa Danylchuk (45:48):
Yeah, since it's a fantasy, why not bring a bus?
yeah, yeah that they were lessvengeful than, oftentimes, their
family members or loved ones,who didn't feel ambivalent about
wanting revenge yeah, I'mcurious, just being in the place
(46:12):
you are, now, having writtensuch influential books, trauma
and recovery, truth and repair,doing such important work for so
many decades, do you feel asense of accomplishment,
fulfillment, pride in that, andor do you feel a sense of
(46:32):
restlessness, wanting things tobe better, wishing everything
could be further along?
I would say both.
Yeah.
So if you could write it rightyou've listened to survivors
share.
If they could write what wouldhappen for them in the justice
system, if you could write howthings would change in society,
(46:56):
in the justice system, in mentalhealth, what would be your
narrative, your vision for,let's just say, the next 50
years?
I'm not sure we have that long,but from 1975 to now we went
from not having a word fortrauma to having a good amount
of research and understandingand there's some traction.
(47:17):
Yes, it's one step forward, 10steps back sometimes.
But even if you wanted to beutopian about it and in 50 years
everything were resolved, whatwould that look like?
Dr. Judith Herman (47:31):
That's a tall order.
But I would say, in the mentalhealth system, medicare for all
and much more investment incommunity mental health
prevention, including childabuse prevention and sexual
(47:54):
assault prevention, which, youknow, we have good models that
are very effective.
Home visiting for the firstyear of life for first-time
mothers the payoff 20 years downthe line is extraordinary, yeah
, but politicians don't think 20years ahead.
(48:16):
They think for the next budgetcycle, you know.
And how do you sell somethingthat didn't happen or isn't
going to happen 20 years fromnow?
So in the justice system, I dothink there's some promising
hybrid models that integratesome restorative justice
(48:40):
principles with a retributivejustice framework and allow more
victim participation, more,again, prevention and
rehabilitation rather thanpunishment-oriented
(49:01):
interventions.
You know the prison system thatwe have besides being absolutely
useless for rehabilitation orclose to it, it's extremely
expensive.
Yes, so it's time to trysomething else.
And, more generally, in termsof democracy movements worldwide
(49:29):
, I have to think it's now ornever, because I do think we are
at an existential moment wherethe triumph of oligarchy does
mean the destruction of theplanet.
(49:50):
Yeah, high stakes.
So, yeah, that's total order,but I think you do have to have
some idea of where you'd like togo.
Lisa Danylchuk (50:01):
So that we can, like you were saying, coming
back to a support group, comingback to your local community I
think there are people listeningto this who have positions of
power in their local community,whether they're doing community
therapy or they're working withjuvenile justice or they're in
schools or different systems.
So, yeah, keeping your eye onthe prize and knowing let's look
(50:26):
at these harmful power dynamicsand let's create something
different.
Let's invoke mutuality and careand you mentioned respect and I
think also, you know Dr DonnaHicks breaks it down with
elements of dignity right thatwe can look for in practice and
that can be really grounding.
Especially when there are highstakes and there's a lot going
(50:48):
on that can make us feel fearful.
Having a way to act and someplace to go can be really
helpful.
Dr. Judith Herman (50:55):
My mama used to say activism is the antidote
to despair.
Absolutely, my mama was alwaysright.
Lisa Danylchuk (51:05):
Yeah, shout out to your mama Was she a strong
influence on you?
I'd imagine so, based on thatcomment.
Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful.
Dr. Judith Herman (51:18):
She was a psychology researcher and
psychologist.
Lisa Danylchuk (51:21):
I didn't know that.
Nice Generation, american born.
So yeah, my mom's apsychologist too.
We have that in common, ohinteresting, her name was Helen
Black-Lewis.
Helen Black-Lewis.
Have you written much about her, or I?
Dr. Judith Herman (51:38):
wrote a little memoir piece about her.
Oh, I didn't know that.
What's it called?
I can send it to you.
Lisa Danylchuk (51:46):
Yeah, yeah, I'll put a link in the show notes
too, so people can find that ifit's available.
Yeah, yeah, I'll put a link inthe show notes too, so people
can find that, if it's availableonline Wonderful.
So if folks listening I meanmost people listening are
familiar with trauma andrecovery, are familiar with your
work, if people want to followyour work beyond reading your
books, is there anywhere else awebsite you would direct them to
(52:06):
?
Dr. Judith Herman (52:06):
Well, I don't do any social media, I'm very
20th century but my colleagueFrank Putnam and I have been
doing a blog called what isHappening to Mental Health Care
for Psychology Today.
Lisa Danylchuk (52:21):
Nice.
Dr. Judith Herman (52:21):
That's one place.
Lisa Danylchuk (52:23):
Wonderful you and Frank Putnam.
Dr. Judith Herman (52:25):
That's amazing and also a contributor
to a book edited by apsychiatrist named Bandy Lee
that's called the Dangerous Caseof Donald Trump okay, and
that's available online, Iimagine, yeah, yeah and it
(52:47):
originally came out in 2017.
It's now the third edition.
You can get it on Amazon andpaperback.
Lisa Danylchuk (52:58):
Good to know what brings you hope these days.
Well, as I say, the people I'veworked with all these years, if
you're going to get involved totry to make world a better place
, the people you work with arewonderful I once was working for
an organization that taughtyoga in juvenile justice centers
(53:21):
and they did a film and at theend of the film was just a
scroll of the name ofnon-profits that had
collaborated and werehighlighted and were doing this
amazing work, and we sat in thetheater for it felt like 30
minutes.
It was just organization afterorganization and name after name
of these people investing theirlives in change, and I feel
(53:44):
like we can get distracted.
If you turn on the news, it'sjust conflict and conflict and
we don't see.
If you turn on the news, it'sjust conflict and conflict and
we don't see.
It's not always in front of ourfaces to see how many people
are dedicating their lives tohealing, and that's part of my
goal with this podcast is justto bring those conversations to
the forefront of our minds, likehonoring you and the work that
(54:04):
you've done and Frank Putnam andall these amazing people who
really care right, Like really,truly, genuinely care about
other humans Coming out sooncalled Old Before their Time,
(54:30):
and it's a memoir of all hiswork as a child abuse doctor,
his research, of his activism.
Yeah.
So let's bring that to theforefront of our minds and just
celebrate that.
So I want to thank you forcoming on the show and talking
with me and sharing your workand your voice all these years.
It's been an inspiration for meand my work and so many people
(54:51):
I know.
So I want to acknowledge andhonor and thank you for all the
dedication and care you've putinto your work.
Dr. Judith Herman (54:58):
Well, thank you for what you're doing.
It's been a pleasure, thank you.
Welcome back to the how we Can Heal podcast.
Today, our guest is Dr JudithHerman.
Dr Judith Herman is a part-timesenior lecturer in psychiatry
at Harvard Medical School.
For 30 years, until retirement,she was director of training at
the Victims of Violence Programat the Cambridge Hospital in
Cambridge, Massachusetts.
She's the author of theaward-winning books Trauma and
(00:25):
Recovery and Father-DaughterIncest, and her newest book,
truth and Repair how TraumaSurvivors Envision Justice, was
published in 2023 and called bythe New York Times a beautiful,
profound and important book.
She's received numerous awards,including a Guggenheim
Fellowship in 1984 and the 1996Lifetime Achievement Award from
(00:48):
the International Society forTraumatic Stress Studies.
In 2007, she was named aDistinguished Life Fellow of the
American PsychiatricAssociation.
Dr Herman is recognizednationally and internationally
as a pioneer in the field oftraumatic stress, both for her
research contributions and forher conceptual work.
(01:09):
Today, she shares how trauma isdeeply embedded into social
structures, highlighting howtyranny and patriarchy
contribute to violence, harm andtrauma and make recovery
difficult.
She also shares what she'slearned from decades working
directly with victims and fromher interviews and research with
(01:31):
survivors, specifically aboutjustice and repair.
She's a legend in her own right, so I'm honored to have this
conversation and to share ithere with you today.
Please join me in welcoming DrJudith Herman to the show.
Share it here with you today.
Please join me in welcoming DrJudith Herman to the show.
I'm Dr Judith Herman to the howwe Can Heal podcast.
(01:53):
I'm so excited and delightedand thrilled to have you here
today.
Thank you for having me.
Yes, I'd love to go back to thebeginning and just learn about
when you first heard about,learned about the word trauma
and when it became a part ofyour reality, because it's been
such a big part of your writingand your life and your teaching.
So I'm curious when did youfirst hear about it?
Dr. Judith Herman (02:17):
Well, we didn't have.
Probably I could date this to1970.
Okay, and that year two thingshappened.
I had joined aconsciousness-raising group,
(02:37):
actually in 69.
And then in July 1970, Istarted my psychiatric residency
, and the consciousness-raisinggroup that I belonged to was
(02:59):
certainly a very privilegeddemographic, all white,
college-educated women.
But even in that demographicpeople were sharing stories of
sexual assault and sexualharassment, intimate partner
(03:19):
violence.
We didn't have those terms then.
None of that was named backthen.
The first speak out on rape andthe consciousness raising groups
then led to public disclosures.
The first rape, I think,happened around 1970.
(03:41):
And at the same time, when Istarted my residency, I was
assigned to an inpatient unit.
My very first two patients werewomen who had made suicide
(04:03):
attempts.
Yeah, and both of them gavehistories of father-daughter
incest and one of them, inaddition, had escaped from her
father by marrying as a teenagerto a man who became extremely
abusive, as is often, it turnsout, often the case.
(04:28):
Yeah, People who are physicallyor sexually abused as kids are
between two and four times aslikely to be re-victimized.
Yep, adolescents or adults.
You really can't get higherthan four times as high, because
the baseline's around 25percent.
(04:48):
So right and anyway.
She said, you know he was goingto kill her anyway.
So she was might as well get itover with.
Well, and so you, here was mytextbook, saying that incest
occurred in one case per million.
So what do you think were theodds that an absolute newbie
(05:12):
would get two cases in a month?
Yeah, so I mean, we didn't havethe word trauma then.
It wasn't until 1980.
Them, it wasn't until 1980,basically, when, thanks to the
organizing of Vietnam VeteransAgainst the War, post-traumatic
stress disorder was recognizedas a real diagnosis in the
(05:38):
diagnostic manual.
And, by the way, they had avery similar organizing process
where they began with what theycalled wrap groups that were
organized outside of the VA orthe health or mental health
system because they didn't trustthe VA, trust the VA.
(06:10):
And in fact my colleague,robert J Lifton, was a
psychiatrist who early on was afacilitator for some of those
rap groups and he wrote a bookcalled Home from the War about
Vietnam veterans and it wastheir testimony that you know.
They went again from sharingtheir stories in a small
confidential group to publicspeaking out publicly and saying
(06:34):
we're home from Vietnam, but inour heads we're still there.
Yeah, and so that's how traumaentered the lexicon.
Lisa Danylchuk (06:44):
How did you learn how to work with it when
there's no word for it, likewhat taught you?
Or who did you go to in theearly days as a newbie, with two
inside spaces right in front ofyou, like where do you go?
What do you do?
Dr. Judith Herman (07:00):
Well, I did have my women's group.
That was an enormous source ofsupport, yes, and luckily I also
had supervisors who took itseriously.
I have to share this storydomestic violence seriously,
(07:22):
because my patient, who wasmarried to this very abusive man
, said she was afraid of him,she didn't want him visiting on
the unit, yeah, and so thenurses wouldn't let him in and
(07:46):
he didn't like that one bit.
At a certain point he got inand he threatened the male unit
director, male psychiatrist, younever saw the police get there
so fast, oh, okay.
Lisa Danylchuk (08:02):
Yeah.
Dr. Judith Herman (08:03):
So after that they took her seriously when
she said he was going to killher.
You know, because of course thethings it takes right, he'd
never seen the police.
I mean, the police were callednumerous times to her home and
they always just took him for awalk around the block.
You know, never made an arrest.
But when he threatened a malepsychiatrist, oh that was a
(08:24):
different story.
So interesting, I hadsupervisors who did take it
seriously.
The other thing was when theystarted talking about it and
somebody believed them andsupported them, they got better.
Yeah, you know.
Lisa Danylchuk (08:39):
Yeah.
Dr. Judith Herman (08:40):
And they stopped being suicidal and their
depression lifted.
I mean, there was no such thingas battered women's shelter
back then, so the patientbasically used the hospital as a
de facto shelter.
And you know the firsttransition house in Cambridge,
which was either the first orsecond battered women's shelter,
(09:04):
mr Second Ratted Women'sShelter put it in 1976.
Could have been 73.
Boston Area Rape Crisis Centerstarted in 73.
So I mean, and all of thesewere organizations completely
developed by grassrootsvolunteers outside the
healthcare and mental healthsystems.
When I eventually started towork at Cambridge Hospital,
(09:28):
which was a Harvard teachinghospital, we started the Victims
of Violence program.
Basically, we invited thegrassroots organizers to join
our staff because they had theknowledge base that was
completely missing in the mentalhealth system so they could
bring their education intogether.
Lisa Danylchuk (09:50):
I'm curious, just given your long history and
dedication to this field, goingback to times when we didn't
have the word trauma, when thereweren't any places for people
experiencing intimate partnerviolence to go, how do you feel
about the progress we've made inthe last four or five decades
in this field, in mental healthand trauma specifically?
Dr. Judith Herman (10:15):
Well, it's two steps forward, one step back
, or sometimes one step forward.
Two steps back, I meancertainly in terms of public
awareness of gender violence.
We're in a very different place.
Yes, I mean, you know, with thesecond wave of consciousness
(10:38):
raising and speak outs and thatled to a lot of good
epidemiological research andscientific publications.
And then another round with theMe Too movement, the awareness
of the endemic nature ofexploitation of women and
children is much greater.
(11:00):
No question about that.
The effective response is awork in progress.
We've had important stepsforward, like the Victims of
Crime Act and Violence AgainstWomen Act, and then VAWA hasn't
been renewed and a lot of theVictims of Crime Act funding
(11:22):
that went for grassroots crisisservices and so on has been cut
back, and so in terms ofavailability of grassroots
services, that's kind offluctuates.
Yeah, the legal system responsehas been very minimal.
(11:46):
Probably the biggestbreakthrough is having victim
witness advocates in the courtsand having civil straining
orders for domestic violence.
Those were two big achievements.
Yeah, were too big achievements,yeah, but in terms of basically
making you know, the trackrecord in terms of treating
(12:17):
gender violence as a crime isstill pathetic.
I mean, rape is supposedly afelony.
In fact, if you look at thepercentage of cases that get
reported to law enforcement,which covers around 20, 25%, and
(12:44):
then you then look at casescleared by arrest, cases
accepted for prosecution, casesresulting in conviction, you
basically have an exponentialdecay curve on what you see in
terms of conviction ratecompared to the actual
(13:05):
prevalence of rape.
Maybe maximum 5% of rape cases,probably more like 2% to 3%.
Yeah, you know, because, unlessit's, you know the fantasy of a
Black stranger raping a prettyblonde virgin teenager, which is
(13:32):
extremely rare.
Most rape, you know, those arepursued very vigorously.
Yeah, most rapes are committednot by strangers but by
acquaintances or inmates.
Most rapes are committed by.
You know, once it's someone thevictim knows.
(13:52):
Yeah, then you know it becomesand there are no witnesses, it
becomes he said, she said, andhe doesn't look like a
stereotypic demon rapist.
He's, you know, just a fineyoung man with a promising
(14:15):
career ahead of him, a goodathlete.
Lisa Danylchuk (14:18):
A lot of benefit of the doubt given to a
perpetrator and little to anygiven to the victim.
Dr. Judith Herman (14:27):
Well, the victim is really from the trial.
Let's face it.
Why was she wearing that dress?
How many beers did?
Lisa Danylchuk (14:33):
she have.
You talk in your recent book,truth and Repair, about so many
dynamics that set the stage forthis, and you share an important
thought across your writingthat trauma is often suppressed
because it threatens socialpower structures, and I think
that's a really powerful message.
(14:54):
And in your book, which waspublished in 2023, truth and
Repair, you talk about tyrannyand patriarchy and the
relationship between the two.
And so, since we're talkingabout rape and we're talking
about gender violence in thisway and the justice system, how
it responds, what do you thinkeveryone needs to understand
(15:14):
about tyranny, like what thatlooks like, how it sets the
stage for trauma.
Dr. Judith Herman (15:21):
Well, tyranny is about a relationship of
dominance and subordination.
It's about the powerful rule,the weak submit.
The bystanders look the otherway because they're either
intimidating themselves theydon't want to get involved
because then they'll get coveredor they're going along for the
(15:46):
ride and collaborating,basically, facilitating their
accomplices basically.
And that type of relationshipof dominance and subordination
exists at every level of humanorganization.
(16:06):
So it exists in intimaterelationships and family
relationships.
Yeah, Can exist.
It exists in workplaces, itexists in the nation state and
it exists in religiousorganizations.
(16:27):
Yeah, whether the dominance andsubordination are based on
gender or race or caste or classor religion, where the strong
(16:55):
rule, the weak submit and thebystanders basically try to stay
out of it.
Lisa Danylchuk (17:03):
Yeah.
Dr. Judith Herman (17:04):
And the only way to to change that, as if the
bystanders actually ally withthe victims, the bystanders.
Lisa Danylchuk (17:17):
Ally with the victims yeah, not the
perpetrators, yeah.
Dr. Judith Herman (17:22):
So that's why you use social movement, yes,
to affect change in thetyrannical system.
Lisa Danylchuk (17:30):
Yes, and I want to talk more about affecting
that change and where we can putour energy.
I think there's as a result oftechnology, as a result of
politics and other things, wecan feel really fragmented and
distracted and busy all the time.
I want to talk about how toinvest our energy in that
(17:52):
positive change, but before weget there, I think sometimes
when we start talking aboutterms you know I'm interviewing
Dr Tama Bryant on this podcasttoo, and she talks a little bit
about when people say decolonial, people get triggered like,
well, what is that?
Maybe don't fully get what itmeans.
And she'll be like well, areyou for slavery, Are you for
(18:15):
oppressing other people?
Because if you're notcomfortable talking about
decolonializing, then that'sreally what you're advocating
for, these harmful dynamics.
And then the people go no, no,I don't want that.
So I think it's similar withpatriarchy where, depending on
the ears that are hearing it,people might start to just glaze
over or shut down or it's toobig or it's too ingrained in
(18:37):
cultures around the world.
So can we clarify when we'retalking about tyranny and we're
talking about dominance andsubordination, how does
patriarchy fit in in terms oftrauma?
How is that perpetuating theharm that's done and the
difficulty in recovery.
Dr. Judith Herman (18:56):
Whenever you have a dominant group and a
subordinate group, andespecially when that dominance
and subordination are deeplyembedded in the cultures and the
traditions.
Ultimately that dominance isenforced by violence.
The methods, of course, ofcontrol are always the same,
(19:17):
whether you're talking about afamily, whether you're talking
about a religious cult, whetheryou're talking about a slave
plantation.
Ultimately, the enforcementcomes down to violence.
And there are many othermethods of enforcement.
Violence doesn't have to beused very often, it just has to
(19:38):
be very persuasive when it isused.
Yes, so you know, if you wantto keep women subordinate,
you've got to make an example ofsome of them and you've got to
instill fear in all of them.
So you know, don't you dare goout at night, or don't you dare
(20:00):
wear a short dress, or don't youdare try to participate in
activities where women are notsupposed to be participating.
Lisa Danylchuk (20:16):
Someone was just asking me recently.
I lived in Italy for a year, inBologna, and they asked if I
dated while I was there and Iwas like, oh, not really I dated
this one person.
And then he said he was goingto a soccer game, football match
.
Oh, I'd love to go.
Oh, no, women can't go there.
I would take a woman to afootball game.
And I was like I think we'redone here, that's enough.
(20:40):
I've heard enough.
Even if it is people aredrinking and fighting, that's
okay.
I can go to the soccer match ifI want to.
Dr. Judith Herman (20:51):
But I mean, you know, when they started
doing research on sexual assaulton college campuses, for
example, and you know thatdemographic is at the peak age
for vulnerability and surprise,surprise fraternities, you know
(21:11):
all male spaces, male-controlledspaces, were high-risk spaces.
The fraternities and footballteams basically have their own
tyrannical initiation rights forthe members, the male members.
(21:33):
But then once they've formedthe fraternity and they've
bonded as a male group, thenthey practice those same methods
on women.
That's why you get the partywhere the freshman girls are
invited and the punch is spikedand the wombs are set aside.
Lisa Danylchuk (21:56):
So the harm just gets passed down and the
pattern of dominance andsubordination starts with the
initiation and the fraternityand then goes on to impact Right
.
Dr. Judith Herman (22:06):
Where, interestingly too, that with a
lot of the bystanderintervention prevention work
with young men, one of the youngmen are scared of being
targeted by other men too.
Lisa Danylchuk (22:20):
Yeah, a faggot, a wuss, a bitch if they don't go
along so when you think aboutthese dynamics of tyranny and
patriarchy and dominance andsubordination across genders
right, you were just talkingabout men hazing men and you
talked about how it shows up inthe workplace right, it can show
up across people when you thinkabout that shifting or going
(22:46):
away, the problematic dynamicsending, what words do you have
to describe what a healthydynamic and culture looks like,
one that supports traumarecovery, one that supports
prevention of trauma, one that'sjust healthier for everyone?
Dr. Judith Herman (23:04):
A contrast with a relationship of tyranny
is a relationship of equality ormutuality.
Yeah, and again, that happenson every level of relationship,
even in families where, ofcourse, parents have much more
power and knowledge thanchildren.
You don't have equality, butyou can have a lot of mutuality,
(23:28):
even from a very early age.
In fact, that's how childrenform safe attachments and are
socialized.
So that's a very basic form ofrelationship that allows us to
live with one another.
And so you look forrelationships of social equality
(23:56):
where the rules are, everybodyhas a voice, everybody gets
respect, everybody gets toparticipate in decision-making
and the decisions are made bynegotiation and compromise
rather than imposing oneperson's will all of that feels
(24:19):
so important and resonates as Iraise my daughter toddlers
really you can negotiate, yeah.
What a toddler learns is youcan't always get what you want,
but but you can get.
How do the Rolling Stones putit?
You get what you need, you know, yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (24:41):
So I'm curious if we're taking steps towards
equality.
Obviously, I thinkunderstanding trauma helps.
Understanding these dynamics,like seeing it seems to be one
of the first steps.
We're swimming in these powerstructures.
Dr. Judith Herman (24:59):
Right, yeah, and you've got to make it and
raise awareness before you doanything else.
Lisa Danylchuk (25:03):
So through the work you've done, your books,
lots of people I think that seeit are trying to send that
message out and say look what'shappening in this dynamic and
look how it's harmful.
So the awareness and theeducation is really important.
A lot of folks that listen tothis podcast are mental health
professionals, are in thewellness space, are helpers and
(25:24):
healers and people Mr Rogerssays to look for in the world.
So for those of us that see itand maybe just have a hard time
maintaining energy forward, whatwould you say can anchor us in
moving towards that equality?
(25:44):
What's the vision?
And maybe, if there's stepsthat come to mind like things we
can do on the daily, on theweekly, on the yearly, what can
we do to continue?
Dr. Judith Herman (25:54):
can we do to continue having your own support
group?
Lisa Danylchuk (25:56):
yeah, you can't do it alone.
And what are steps that take asocial group towards more?
Dr. Judith Herman (26:04):
equality.
You know, I do think the smallgroup group where you start with
, where everybody is right now.
Lisa Danylchuk (26:15):
Yeah.
Dr. Judith Herman (26:17):
Whether you're talking about a
consciousness raising group or arap group or in the civil
rights movement, they had thesefreedom schools where people
came and again just talked aboutthe realities of their lives,
and that was the beginning ofcommunity organizing.
Start with people where theyare.
(26:38):
Yeah, yeah, what can I do aboutclimate change?
It's just a worldwide problem.
It's having to do with oil, allgargoyle.
I mean, how do you start?
Well, what's happening in yourlocal community?
Yeah, no, you probably can'ttake on the Saudis and the
(27:03):
United Emirates and Putin, andnot to mention our own oligarchs
, but there's probably somestuff going on in your community
.
Lisa Danylchuk (27:16):
Yeah, and that's , I think, where you begin yeah,
in your book you talk about andthese are chapter titles too
you talk about acknowledgement,apology, accountability,
especially when we're talkingabout the layers of trauma, the
specific trauma that happens toa single victim or group of
(27:38):
victims, and the layers outright.
I feel like those are reallyimportant takeaways for folks in
the justice system, for folkswho are working with survivors,
but also for anyone and everyoneto understand the inner
workings of how much trauma canharm the power structures that
create that environment andallow for it, but also to find
(28:00):
this roadmap through when you'reinterviewing folks.
I think there were 30 survivorsthat you interviewed for Truth
and Repair.
What are some of the things youwish?
Everyone knew that you gathereddirectly from those survivors.
Dr. Judith Herman (28:19):
Well, I think the sort of main take-home
message was that what thejustice system offers as
resolutions for crimes was not avery good fit with what victims
(28:42):
said they wanted.
Because for the criminaljustice system, what it offers
as a successful outcome ispunishment of the offender, and
that turned out to be pretty fardown the list of what most
(29:03):
survivors wanted.
And then what the civil justicesystem offers is money.
Civil justice system offers ismoney, and that also turned out
to be not top of the list formany survivors.
(29:24):
What the survivors wanted mostand in fact this was unanimous
30 out of 30 interviewees saidthey wanted acknowledgement,
public acknowledgement, and itwas more important to them to
get the acknowledgement from thebystanders than it was to get
the acknowledgement from theperpetrator.
(29:45):
They were prepared for the factthat the perpetrator might go
right on denying it.
Lisa Danylchuk (29:50):
Yeah that the perpetrator might go right on
denying it?
Dr. Judith Herman (29:52):
Yeah, but they wanted the bystanders to
believe them, yeah, and theywanted not only acknowledgement
of the facts but acknowledgementof the harm and acknowledgement
that this was wrong.
Yeah, because oftentimes denialis always the first level of
(30:19):
defense, but if you've got DNAevidence, for example, right,
the next level is.
So what's the big deal?
Yeah, it's over.
Let's forgive and forget.
So, acknowledging the harm, I'macknowledging that the crime
(30:40):
occurred.
Yeah, they wanted thebystanders to recognize the harm
and denounce the crime, andthey wanted the perpetrators
exposed so that the bystandershad limits.
Yes, for happening again.
That was top of the list.
Lisa Danylchuk (31:02):
Yeah.
Dr. Judith Herman (31:02):
People and so punishment.
A lot of people just basicallysaid what good is that going to
do me?
Yeah, you know that's not goingto fix anything.
Yeah, they were also not veryexcited about forgiveness.
They were not into let'sforgive and forget.
(31:23):
In fact they were afraid of.
I mean, there were exceptions.
There were some people who hadactually had confrontations with
the perpetrator, where theperpetrator genuinely apologized
and showed genuine remorse.
(31:44):
And then you know one woman whowrote about how forgiveness was
just spontaneous.
It wasn't something you had towork at, it was just.
She saw this genuine remorseand it was like a weight was
lifted from her shoulders.
But those were rare cases Moreoften.
(32:08):
Another incest survivor who Iinterviewed said I think he'd
get a kick out of talking aboutwhat he did.
He wouldn't really be sorry,he'd admit it, but he'd relish
it.
And then, if he did admit it,my family would want me to
forgive him and I don't want todo that.
And I think there was evenamong the clergy people that I
(32:33):
interviewed that it's just tooeasy to pressure the victims to
forgive.
It's a lot harder to actuallyget the perpetrators to change
and get them to a place ofremorse and contrition and in
fact, mostly we don't know howto do that because we've never
(32:54):
invested in any kind of seriousrehabilitation effort and we
don't even know what the trueprevalence is in terms of
offending and let alone the sortof spectrum of offenders, some
of whom might well be goodcandidates for rehabilitation,
(33:14):
and others who are truesociopaths and repeat offenders.
You really would have tosegregate them.
The only way to keep thecommunity safe would be to
supervise them all the time.
So they didn't want punishment,they didn't want forgiveness
(33:35):
and money damages.
People were very conflictedabout the money.
Lisa Danylchuk (33:42):
Yeah.
Dr. Judith Herman (33:42):
Because, on the one hand, people said, how
much money have I spent ondoctors and healthcare and
hospitals, on doctors and dentalhealth care and hospitals but
on the other hand, it would feellike dirty money.
Yeah well, I didn't want tofeel like they've been bought
(34:02):
and, of course, especially thevictims of trafficking who
haven't sold really didn't wantme, the money just felt
contaminated.
There was one rape victim Iinterviewed who it was one of
these cases where she did reportto the police.
I mean, it was a formerboyfriend who she had broken up
(34:26):
with and he raped her when shewent to his apartment to
retrieve some of her artworkhe's an artist To basically
punish her for breaking up withhim.
And she did report him topolice.
The DA declined to prosecutebecause he said she said that
(34:48):
they had a prior sexualrelationship so he was going to
claim consent.
But she did file a civil suitand he was found liable.
And what came?
Time for her to say what shewanted in money damages.
She said she wanted him to give$30 to the local rape crisis
(35:15):
center and the $30 representedthe 30 pieces of silver for
which Judas had betrayed Jesus.
And I said to her the guy had alot of money, you could have
asked him to give $30,000 to therape crisis center.
She said you know, I didn'teven think that the money was
(35:39):
symbolic, but there is andpeople should know about this.
It's not nearly as well knownas it should be.
The Victims of Crime Act has aprovision it should be.
The Victims of Crime Act has aprovision.
(36:00):
It created what's called atrust fund, which is a fund not
based on taxpayer revenues buton fines levied on convicted
offenders, unconvicted offenders, and the money goes into a big
pot which is then distributed.
There's both on the federallevel and then there are state
level, and survivorrepresentatives sit on the
(36:26):
advisory boards that determinehow the funds are allocated.
So it's like offenders as agroup giving back to victims as
a group yes, but there's notthat sort of personal your
offender giving money to youyeah.
(36:47):
It also eliminates the thingthat for civil damages, some
offenders have lots of money anda lot of them don't have any
money.
So, and the monies will go forthree things Direct victim
compensation for time lost fromwork or medical expenses.
It also pays salaries forvictim witness advocates in the
(37:11):
courts Good.
It also pays salaries forvictim witness advocates in the
courts Good.
And a lot of grant funds go tovictim services like women's
shelters, rape crisis centers.
At our Victims of Violenceprogram for years we had focus
support for a free homicidebereavement service that
(37:31):
includes home visiting andsupport groups.
We had money for hospital-basedvictim advocates, which I think
is a great idea, you know, tohave an advocate in the
emergency room that when you seethe advocate the dogs don't
know how to get a restrainingorder or how to link victims up
(37:56):
with services, but the advocatesdo, and the advocates will
either accompany the victim tocourt and things like that.
So we had the hospital-basedadvocates and then for a while
we also had a community crisisservice that trained community
(38:20):
volunteers so that when therewas something like a shooting in
a school they could have acrisis response that wasn't just
some strange professionalparachuting in, but where
community organizations couldprovide some direction to
(38:42):
organize a crisis response.
So it was a very creative wayto hold perpetrators as a group
accountable to make restitution.
Lisa Danylchuk (38:54):
And for victims to be able to receive the
support without that direct lineto someone who harmed them, or
feeling that the money istainted or somehow not wanting
to ask that right.
Dr. Judith Herman (39:07):
Yeah, because a lot of people want anything
to do with this person.
Lisa Danylchuk (39:10):
Yeah, yeah, no connection.
Yeah, yeah, so you learned somuch from these victims you've
interviewed, from people you'vesupported throughout your career
?
Was there anything surprisingthat came up in these interviews
that you learned from victimsthat, even with all all your
(39:30):
experience, caught you off guard?
Dr. Judith Herman (39:35):
I was actually a little bit surprised,
although not totally, becausevictims are so often stereotyped
as vengeful or just out formoney or, you know, just out for
(40:00):
blood.
I did ask I mean, these weresemi-structured interviews I,
you know, mostly just said ifyou could write the script and
you had the power to dictateexactly what happened, what
would be ideal, what wouldrepresent justice in your mind?
(40:21):
But I did ask specificallyabout revenge, because in our
criminal justice system victimsare quite marginal.
It's the state that'sconsidered the injured party and
that's why the prosecutor hasthe power to decide whether to
(40:43):
go forward with pressing charges, and a lot of the rationale for
that is that if you left it tovictims there would just be
blood feuds.
I did a training, a day-longcourse, one time at the American
Psychiatric Association annualmeeting, with a very well-known
(41:08):
forensic psychiatrist about howto be an expert witness in court
.
He opened the morning sessionwith.
He put up a great big side ofthe Hatfields of the McCoys,
these mountain men with theirmustaches and their rifles
across their knees, looking veryfierce, and he said why do we
(41:33):
have courts?
You may naively think that wehave courts to read out justice
or to establish the truth.
The real reason is so that wecan resolve disputes without
firearms.
Lisa Danylchuk (41:50):
Okay, is so that we can resolve disputes without
fireworks, okay, and he said so.
Dr. Judith Herman (42:00):
Anything short of that is you know it's
an adversarial system and so beprepared to be verbally attacked
and humiliated and you know ifyou have any skeletons in your
closet.
Forget about being an expertwitness, because anything short
(42:24):
of a physical attack is allowed.
A physical attack is allowed,yeah, but the state is in charge
, because if you didn't have thestate in charge, you'd have the
Hatfields and the McCoys, andso that's the stereotype that
victims are going to be muchmore bloodthirsty and out for
(42:48):
revenge than a judge or a jury.
So I did ask all my informantsabout revenge, and they all have
revenge fantasies, but mostlythey hated their revenge
fantasies.
They felt like this isn'treally me.
This is like a disgustingresidue of seeing the hate up
(43:15):
close.
In fact, the woman artist Idescribed when I asked her about
revenge fantasy, she said she'dhad these nightmares all the
time where she was shooting therapist.
She had one where a dinosaurcame and tromped on the rapist,
(43:37):
and in her dreams she wasdelighted, and when she woke up
she was disgusted and felt like,oh, this is the last thing I
want in my life.
Lisa Danylchuk (43:49):
Yeah, more violence.
Dr. Judith Herman (43:55):
Interestingly enough, her husband.
I interviewed him also.
He was not ambivalent about hisrevenge fantasies at all.
Yeah, he wanted to kill the guy, yeah, and I found that to be
fairly generally true that thevictims, who had really seen
this up close, didn't want anypart of it, yeah, and felt very
(44:17):
ashamed of their own revengefantasies and like they were ego
, alien.
And, in fact, one of the nicethings that happens in that we
do a lot of group therapybecause, again, groups, small
groups, survivor groups, arejust so healing.
But if they're well structuredand well run and one of the
things that happens often latein the group, when people have
(44:40):
bonded sufficiently, is theyeach other's revenge fantasies.
I have a transcript of onemeeting where this woman says
(45:00):
first she says she'd just liketo scratch his face, and the
other group members say, really,is that all Well?
Actually, is that all Well?
Actually I had this idea aboutgetting a baseball bat and
(45:21):
kneecapping him, and so then thegroup goes yeah well, maybe you
should do that with the buscoming.
Lisa Danylchuk (45:32):
I love the fierce protective anger on the
other person you know, and bythat time they're all laughing
hysterically because it becomesfunny instead of a burden.
Dr. Judith Herman (45:40):
It becomes sort of like they know they're
just fantasies, they know thatit's silly, but they can have a
laugh together.
Lisa Danylchuk (45:48):
Yeah, since it's a fantasy, why not bring a bus?
yeah, yeah that they were lessvengeful than, oftentimes, their
family members or loved ones,who didn't feel ambivalent about
wanting revenge yeah, I'mcurious, just being in the place
(46:12):
you are, now, having writtensuch influential books, trauma
and recovery, truth and repair,doing such important work for so
many decades, do you feel asense of accomplishment,
fulfillment, pride in that, andor do you feel a sense of
(46:32):
restlessness, wanting things tobe better, wishing everything
could be further along?
I would say both.
Yeah.
So if you could write it rightyou've listened to survivors
share.
If they could write what wouldhappen for them in the justice
system, if you could write howthings would change in society,
(46:56):
in the justice system, in mentalhealth, what would be your
narrative, your vision for,let's just say, the next 50
years?
I'm not sure we have that long,but from 1975 to now we went
from not having a word fortrauma to having a good amount
of research and understandingand there's some traction.
(47:17):
Yes, it's one step forward, 10steps back sometimes.
But even if you wanted to beutopian about it and in 50 years
everything were resolved, whatwould that look like?
Dr. Judith Herman (47:31):
That's a tall order.
But I would say, in the mentalhealth system, medicare for all
and much more investment incommunity mental health
prevention, including childabuse prevention and sexual
(47:54):
assault prevention, which, youknow, we have good models that
are very effective.
Home visiting for the firstyear of life for first-time
mothers the payoff 20 years downthe line is extraordinary, yeah
, but politicians don't think 20years ahead.
(48:16):
They think for the next budgetcycle, you know.
And how do you sell somethingthat didn't happen or isn't
going to happen 20 years fromnow?
So in the justice system, I dothink there's some promising
hybrid models that integratesome restorative justice
(48:40):
principles with a retributivejustice framework and allow more
victim participation, more,again, prevention and
rehabilitation rather thanpunishment-oriented
(49:01):
interventions.
You know the prison system thatwe have besides being absolutely
useless for rehabilitation orclose to it, it's extremely
expensive.
Yes, so it's time to trysomething else.
And, more generally, in termsof democracy movements worldwide
(49:29):
, I have to think it's now ornever, because I do think we are
at an existential moment wherethe triumph of oligarchy does
mean the destruction of theplanet.
(49:50):
Yeah, high stakes.
So, yeah, that's total order,but I think you do have to have
some idea of where you'd like togo.
Lisa Danylchuk (50:01):
So that we can, like you were saying, coming
back to a support group, comingback to your local community I
think there are people listeningto this who have positions of
power in their local community,whether they're doing community
therapy or they're working withjuvenile justice or they're in
schools or different systems.
So, yeah, keeping your eye onthe prize and knowing let's look
(50:26):
at these harmful power dynamicsand let's create something
different.
Let's invoke mutuality and careand you mentioned respect and I
think also, you know Dr DonnaHicks breaks it down with
elements of dignity right thatwe can look for in practice and
that can be really grounding.
Especially when there are highstakes and there's a lot going
(50:48):
on that can make us feel fearful.
Having a way to act and someplace to go can be really
helpful.
Dr. Judith Herman (50:55):
My mama used to say activism is the antidote
to despair.
Absolutely, my mama was alwaysright.
Lisa Danylchuk (51:05):
Yeah, shout out to your mama Was she a strong
influence on you?
I'd imagine so, based on thatcomment.
Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful.
Dr. Judith Herman (51:18):
She was a psychology researcher and
psychologist.
Lisa Danylchuk (51:21):
I didn't know that.
Nice Generation, american born.
So yeah, my mom's apsychologist too.
We have that in common, ohinteresting, her name was Helen
Black-Lewis.
Helen Black-Lewis.
Have you written much about her, or I?
Dr. Judith Herman (51:38):
wrote a little memoir piece about her.
Oh, I didn't know that.
What's it called?
I can send it to you.
Lisa Danylchuk (51:46):
Yeah, yeah, I'll put a link in the show notes
too, so people can find that ifit's available.
Yeah, yeah, I'll put a link inthe show notes too, so people
can find that, if it's availableonline Wonderful.
So if folks listening I meanmost people listening are
familiar with trauma andrecovery, are familiar with your
work, if people want to followyour work beyond reading your
books, is there anywhere else awebsite you would direct them to
(52:06):
?
Dr. Judith Herman (52:06):
Well, I don't do any social media, I'm very
20th century but my colleagueFrank Putnam and I have been
doing a blog called what isHappening to Mental Health Care
for Psychology Today.
Lisa Danylchuk (52:21):
Nice.
Dr. Judith Herman (52:21):
That's one place.
Lisa Danylchuk (52:23):
Wonderful you and Frank Putnam.
Dr. Judith Herman (52:25):
That's amazing and also a contributor
to a book edited by apsychiatrist named Bandy Lee
that's called the Dangerous Caseof Donald Trump okay, and
that's available online, Iimagine, yeah, yeah and it
(52:47):
originally came out in 2017.
It's now the third edition.
You can get it on Amazon andpaperback.
Lisa Danylchuk (52:58):
Good to know what brings you hope these days.
Well, as I say, the people I'veworked with all these years, if
you're going to get involved totry to make world a better place
, the people you work with arewonderful I once was working for
an organization that taughtyoga in juvenile justice centers
(53:21):
and they did a film and at theend of the film was just a
scroll of the name ofnon-profits that had
collaborated and werehighlighted and were doing this
amazing work, and we sat in thetheater for it felt like 30
minutes.
It was just organization afterorganization and name after name
of these people investing theirlives in change, and I feel
(53:44):
like we can get distracted.
If you turn on the news, it'sjust conflict and conflict and
we don't see.
If you turn on the news, it'sjust conflict and conflict and
we don't see.
It's not always in front of ourfaces to see how many people
are dedicating their lives tohealing, and that's part of my
goal with this podcast is justto bring those conversations to
the forefront of our minds, likehonoring you and the work that
(54:04):
you've done and Frank Putnam andall these amazing people who
really care right, Like really,truly, genuinely care about
other humans Coming out sooncalled Old Before their Time,
(54:30):
and it's a memoir of all hiswork as a child abuse doctor,
his research, of his activism.
Yeah.
So let's bring that to theforefront of our minds and just
celebrate that.
So I want to thank you forcoming on the show and talking
with me and sharing your workand your voice all these years.
It's been an inspiration for meand my work and so many people
(54:51):
I know.
So I want to acknowledge andhonor and thank you for all the
dedication and care you've putinto your work.
Dr. Judith Herman (54:58):
Well, thank you for what you're doing.
It's been a pleasure, thank you.
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