When Dignity Meets Conflict: Tools for Healing Our Divided World

Ever feel like polarization makes meaningful conversation nearly impossible? Dr. Donna Hicks returns with transformative insights on navigating our divided world through dignity consciousness. 

At Harvard's Weatherhead Center for International Affairs, Hicks witnesses dignity violations daily yet remains steadfastly committed to her groundbreaking work. She reveals why these violations feel so viscerally painful – our brains process them identically to physical wounds – and offers practical tools for interrupting our instinctive reactions. Forget counting to ten; taking ten deep breaths actually changes your neurochemistry, creating space for thoughtful response rather than reflexive reaction.

The conversation explores what Hicks calls our "relentless ambivalence" as humans – we simultaneously crave safety through self-preservation and connection through dignity recognition. This tension leaves us constantly choosing which impulse will guide our interactions. When approaching difficult conversations, Hicks recommends genuine curiosity: "I'm really curious about how you arrived at your conclusions." This simple yet profound shift creates safety and honors the other person's inherent worth.

Most powerfully, Hicks shares her vision for a dignity-conscious society built on education and practice. From elementary schools to boardrooms to political chambers, she's witnessing growing receptivity to dignity-based approaches. Her nephew, recently appointed President of Ecuador's National Assembly, explicitly leads with dignity principles – proving these concepts can transform even the most contentious political environments.

For those struggling to connect with their own dignity, Hicks offers this bridge: recognize that unworthiness stems not from personal deficiency but from dignity violations experienced. "I'm worthy, no matter what" becomes possible when we understand "something bad happened to me" rather than "something is wrong with me."

Ready to transform your approach to conflict? Listen now to discover how dignity consciousness can heal our divided world – one conversation at a time.

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Episode Transcript

Lisa Danylchuk (00:03):
Welcome back to the how we Can Heal podcast.
Today, our guest is Dr DonnaHicks.
Dr Donna Hicks is apsychologist specializing in
conflict resolution who hasoperationalized and popularized
the concept of dignity.
She's facilitated conflictresolution across the globe,
worked closely with ArchbishopDesmond Tutu for years and

(00:25):
currently is an associate at theWeatherhead Center for
International Affairs at HarvardUniversity.
She also offers training aroundthe world on dignity,
leadership and the role dignityplays in resolving conflict.
Her two books Dignity ItsEssential Role in Resolving
Conflict and Leading withDignity how to create a culture
that brings out the best inpeople offer us language and a

(00:48):
roadmap to help recognize andcultivate dignity within
ourselves and our communities.
Donna was a guest on the show inSeason 4, and I wanted to bring
her back to talk about how wenavigate dignity violations and
temptations to violate dignity.
Dignity violations andtemptations to violate dignity.

(01:08):
Today she gives us tools to useamidst the moments of
disconnect to help access ourown dignity and infuse dignity
consciousness into our lives.
Please join me in welcoming DrDonna Hicks to the show.
So nice to see you again.
How are you?

Donna Hicks (01:22):
Oh gosh crazy busy.
You know so much is happeninghere at Harvard.
Talk about trauma.
This has been just one insultafter another, one massive
dignity violation after theother.

Lisa Danylchuk (01:37):
I always think of your work, but I'm thinking
of it a lot more lately in termsof dignity violations, in terms
of temptations to violatedignity.
How does it feel to see so manydignity violations right in
front of you and to have thisbody of work that you've put
your heart, your mind, your soulinto, your life, into?

(02:01):
And I'm seeing dignityviolations, I'm seeing
temptations to violate, beingeaten up like sugar morning
cereal and I'm just like I'mthinking of your work and
thinking of you and like howmust that feel to have put so
much work in and then just seethings happening in front of you

(02:23):
?
It's kind of like when youunderstand trauma, you see it
everywhere.
And then when you understandand metabolize what dignity is
like, then you see when it'sworking and when it's not.
It's so much more apparent andin your face.
So you've been on my mind andjust thinking about how that
must feel for you.
So how does that feel to haveput so much energy into this

(02:45):
work and then to see so much ofthe opposite of what you're
cultivating happening beforeyour eyes?

Donna Hicks (02:54):
Well, quite honestly, I feel like I've been
validated at this massive levelthat we're watching.
It's everywhere.
It's in politics, it's, youknow, in our streets, it's every
.
I mean, look what's happeningin LA right now.
But I do feel almost like, okay, yeah, I got that right, I got
that right.
This is what's happening topeople, and these dignity

(03:18):
injuries I mean we could callthem trauma it ends up being the
same thing.
People are traumatized byhaving their dignity assaulted
and so, on that level, justknowing, okay, I think I got
this right.
And, lisa, I have had so manypeople from all over the world,
people with whom I've workedeverywhere, internationally and
here in the US, you know, writeto me or call me and say, hey,

(03:43):
look, you know, we're seeing itright in front of our eyes,
everything that you were tryingto shine a light on, and right
now it's everywhere.
So, in that odd kind of way, Ifeel, okay, I got this right.
Yep, I got this right.
Now the question next questionis what are we going to do about
it?
You know, what do we do?
And one of the things that I'vediscovered is that people

(04:07):
gravitate toward are now, atthis moment, gravitating toward
my dignity work, because they'refeeling it so personally and
certainly professionally formany, like all my USAID friends
and all the people who losttheir jobs all over the world,
and so people are feeling it,feeling that real sense of being

(04:27):
violated, and know that thereis an antidote, and they think
of my work as an antidote towhat they're seeing right now
and what they want to learn itmore.
I mean, I'm getting so manyrequests to give talks and to
create, you know do workshopsfor people, because it's just
the pain has gotten to a pointwhere it's almost intolerable to

(04:50):
many people.

Lisa Danylchuk (04:51):
Yeah, to have those dignity violations
happening in such a daily andalmost mundane way, and I think
a lot of people can feel theneed to withdraw from even
witnessing them, let alone beinga part of them.
And everyone finds their ownway when there's a dignity
violation happening.
But one of the temptations youtalk about is avoidance of

(05:17):
conflict, and one of theelements of dignity is
understanding.
And so I think about those twowhere, yeah, we need to do what
we need to do to take care ofour energy and our lives and
have boundaries and staycentered.
And how do we address this,like, how do we move forward you
?

Donna Hicks (05:36):
know those two pieces that you put together the
temptation to avoid conflict.
We have that sort of hardwiredin us.
We hate conflict, we humans,but on the other hand, one of
the elements of dignity, as youpointed out, is understanding
that people really want to beunderstood.
So I have actually spent a lotof time trying to manage that

(06:00):
tension between those two andencourage people to reach out to
someone that you know you havevastly different political views
on, or just someone that you're, you know, experiencing
conflict with, and what I havefound is that, in order to have
a conversation with, in thispolarized world that we're

(06:22):
living in, I think that a coupleof elements of dignity are
really at play.
Certainly, the understandingwas trying to seek a deeper
understanding, but we also haveto create safety too in order to
have that conversation, becauseone of the reasons why we avoid
conflict in that temptation iswhen we feel under threat.

(06:42):
So that activates thattemptation to avoid conflict.
So what we have to try to workon and I say practice, practice,
practice is the best way toaddress that threat and realize
that this is just another humanbeing, just like me.
They may have differentperspectives and different life
experiences and therefore havecome to different conclusions

(07:05):
about the way the world works.
But at the end of the day, whatI've found, when you create that
sense of safety and by that Imean when you address someone
and when you invite somebody tohave a conversation you don't
use that sharp tone of voice or,you know, that judgmental
attitude you come in with a realcuriosity that's the word I've

(07:28):
been using over and over againDevelop a curiosity for how this
fellow human being ended uphaving such vastly different
beliefs than you have.
And so, if we can create thatmindset to begin with, try to
genuinely be curious about whythe person has evolved the

(07:52):
belief system that they have,then what I and it's almost like
magic, because what I say tosomeone hey look, we have vastly
different views on politics andat the same time, I'm really
curious about how you arrived atthose points of view, and I'm
sure there's a story that youhave to tell about that, and I'm

(08:13):
here to listen.
I want to hear that story, Iwant to gain a deeper
understanding of you and howyou've arrived at your
conclusions.
And so just by approaching that, if you think about it, that is
like an invitation to have yourdignity honored.
I want to hear you, I want toexperience what you've lived
through.
I want you to tell me you know.

(08:35):
So it's kind of ironic that,even though I personally disdain
maybe even the points of view,I can be really curious.
I can say, okay, given whatthis person has been through and
what they're telling me abouthow they arrived at this
conclusion.
Okay, I can still say, hey,look, I still disagree with it,

(08:57):
but I can certainly understandyour perspective.
Now and thank them for that,say thank you for taking the
time to explain all that to me.
And you know it softens theedges oh yeah, lisa, big time.
And the first, the first attemptisn't always, you know, you get
to the other side.
But if you keep going with itand say, hey, look, why don't we

(09:18):
do this again?
Why don't we have anothermeeting, maybe next week
sometime, and explore this moredeeply, and at that point I
would say, yeah, I'd like toexplain to you too, so maybe you
would gain a deeperunderstanding of my.
I'd like to tell you what,where I'm coming from and how
I've arrived.
And usually they say, oh, ofcourse.
Of course I want to hear yourpoint.

(09:39):
So you know, tapping into thatshared humanity is and
demonstrating that you want tomake this a safe conversation.
You don't was.
We're going to listen, tounderstand and speak to be

(10:10):
understood.
So, and I just apply that tothese conversations, and you
know, I mean quite honestly,lisa, some of them don't go so
well.
I mean, some of them are okay,maybe we've got somewhere, but
so many of them really do, likeI said, the edges get softened
and yeah, it's really, it'squite, it's quite interesting.

Lisa Danylchuk (10:33):
As you're talking, I'm visualizing these
different words of like there'ssafety and there's threat, and
there's dignity and empathy andconnection, like all these
different words that you've useddignity and empathy and
connection, like all thesedifferent words that you've used
and I'd imagine that theconversations that go better are
the ones where some sense ofsafety is maintained, where
there's not a big threatresponse in the other person,

(10:55):
and in the trauma world we looka lot at threat and the
neuroscience of it and whathappens in our biology.
The second, we don't feel safe,or when something does feel
traumatizing, right, and eventhose micro moments where
there's an expression on someoneelse's face where you don't
feel seen or understood, and howthat can shift a conversation.
So I'm thinking about all ofthat and how I'd imagine the

(11:19):
conversations that go better andthe way you're describing this.
I just keep thinking about whatyou write about connection,
right, and the sense of dignityin terms of connection with
yourself and your own dignity,right, valuing.
This is where this is what Ibelieve, this is how I've come
to believe it, and then also theconnection with the other

(11:40):
person, because the way you evenI'm like I want to write a
script, a transcript here oflike here's how to invite a
conversation in a really honestway and just sit down and bring
that sense of curiosity and anopportunity for connection.
I think that it sounds sosimple but it's clearly such a

(12:02):
struggle in our world today toget to feeling safe enough to
have those conversations.
I have plenty of friends tellme oh, I, I'm trying to talk to
people but it's really hard, orthey don't want to talk or they
just say no, we're not goingthere.

Donna Hicks (12:15):
Yeah.

Lisa Danylchuk (12:15):
Like, okay, I'm all for boundaries, and what
about connection and what aboutshared understanding?
So yeah, those, those layers ofconnection.
You know, real estate islocation, location, location.

Donna Hicks (12:26):
Connection, connection, connection, yes, and
the layers of it and how we canpractice that in everyday life.
And I think what you just saidis such a great example of that,
eo Wilson, what I learned fromhim that there exists inside all
of us human beings a desire toprotect ourselves and

(12:48):
self-preservation instincts.
But on the other side of it,there's also an equally as
powerful force within us, whichis the desire for loving
connections and connections.
In my mind, the best way toconnect with someone is to
demonstrate that you see theirdignity, that you see them as a

(13:09):
person with inherent value andworth and there's biology behind
that as well.
But we also have this inborndesire to want that safety that
comes from a nice connectionwith another person.

(13:30):
I mean, threat and disconnectare like two sides of the same
coin.
You know, threat and disconnect.
You disconnect when you feelthat sense of threat, and so I
loved that EO Wilson pointingthat out.
And he said what it does is itleaves us with a relentless
ambivalence inside, he said,because you're always pulled one

(13:51):
way or the other.
And so, but I just love thatframing.
Okay, we're these wonderfulcreatures that love love and we
love to be connected andintimate with.
And I don't mean I'm nottalking about love in the
romantic sense.
I'm talking about love in thesense that, wow, do I feel safe
with this person?
I feel this person sees me, Ifeel this person cares about

(14:15):
what happens to me, I feel thisperson cares about what happens
to me.
And so, you know, we humans havethis inner struggle and if we
don't understand that in a deepway, we won't be able to make
the choice of connection overself-preservation, because
that's the other thing EO Wilsonsaid.
We have to make a choicebecause those they're both

(14:37):
aspects of who we are as humanbeings.
But we have what did he say?
We have the capacity tooverride that strong threat
response that we feel and wantto disconnect from people.
And because, you know, we havethis neocortex here, this
executive functioning.
It's not all about the amygdalaand the desire for safety and

(14:58):
protection, but this is thething about what we both do.
We're using slightly differentlanguage, but I think it's
really the same phenomenon thatwe have to make the choice for
connection overself-preservation.
And sometimes it's wise to makethe self-preservation choice,

(15:19):
sometimes it is wise to avoid aconflict.
But if we know that that ispart of something that has been
with us ever since we were Homosapiens.
Roaming the savannah, we wouldsay, okay, I can do better than
this.
Now I can connect with thisperson.
Even if I don't, you know, evenif I'm feeling a little
threatened, I can still connectby honoring their dignity.

(15:42):
So it's all about education, Ithink you know understanding
trauma, understanding dignityviolations, understanding and
what I especially love and Iknow you do too is the
neuroscience of it, because theneuroscience of a dignity
violation is pretty alarming.
Once you hear about it, thebrain doesn't know the

(16:02):
difference between a physicalwound and a wound to our dignity
.
That's pretty alarming.
So, yeah, there's a reason whywe have all those avoidance
patterns as well.

Lisa Danylchuk (16:15):
And it makes me wonder too.
I feel like there's thisunpacking that your work gives
such great language to, and thatit focuses on the 10 elements
of dignity.
Let's practice this, and Ialways like to keep us oriented,
especially in moments ofconfusion, to like, well, where
are we going?
What are we trying to build?
So I think those elementsreally ground us, and we talked

(16:37):
a fair amount about those in ourlast interview.
There's an entire you wroteyour entire first book about
that.
You have many talks about it,right, there's plenty of places
people can go to digest thosemore.
Then you go into the 10temptations to violate and I
love the language of that tooand I love the inclusiveness of
this is all of us, if you have abrain, if you ever feel

(17:01):
threatened or go into defense oreven the best defense is a
solid offense right, if you evergo into that territory?
Here's some things to reflecton, and so I'm wondering what
you're seeing.
We're talking about avoidingconflict, but are there other
temptations to violate dignitythat you feel like are louder

(17:22):
right now in the world, thatpeople are getting caught into
without maybe even having thelanguage for knowing what's
happening?

Donna Hicks (17:30):
Well, I think the very first one that I point out
in that list of 10 temptationsis the temptation to take the
bait, to respond.
You know, because we're sopolarized now, it's like human
to human temptation to try toseek revenge and to get even.
I see that one a lot now thatpeople are just not willing to,

(17:54):
as I say, push the pause buttonand stop when you feel that
desire.
Like what did she just say tome?
I'm going to get back at her,I'm going to get even here.
She can't treat me that way.
If we don't recognize that thatjust leads to more violations
and it's letting the badbehavior of somebody else

(18:15):
determine how we're going to act.
It's like a trigger responseOkay, all right, she treats me
that way, I'm going to treat herthat way.
That is what I'm seeing a lot,or I'm not really seeing it, so
I'm seeing it on television alot, but I'm hearing it a lot
too from people who they call meup and they say I'm just so
disappointed in myself.
I just took the bait here whenI had this political discussion

(18:36):
with someone in my office and Ijust feel so bad.
What should I do?
So these alarming kind ofreactions that we have, and
sometimes we can't even, don'teven think before we react.
It happens so automaticallythat desire to lash back you
know that.
I just heard a program on NPRthe other day about revenge and

(18:58):
how powerful in our brains, whata powerful brain response it is
.
When somebody comes at us andharms us, we want to seek
revenge.
We want that person to feel thesame pain that we're feeling.
It's such a human phenomenon,you know, it's a human reaction

(19:19):
and again, until we learn this,until we understand those 10
temptations and know that theseare hardwired and it's part of
our ancestral legacy, you know,we've inherited these from our
early ancestors, these threatresponses.
But if we don't realize, oh mygosh, if I do respond by trying

(19:40):
to get even, then this is goingto just escalate this conflict
beyond where it was in thebeginning.
So you know, we have to be wise, we have to be knowledgeable,
we have to be able to stopourselves and recognize what's
going on internally before welash out and say, okay, I don't
want to go there, I'm upset withthis person, I'm really upset

(20:03):
that she talked to me that way,but I am not going to take the
bait.

Lisa Danylchuk (20:08):
Yeah, I heard someone recently describe
pausing as the intentionalawkward pause, like just letting
whatever just was said hang inthe air for as long as possible,
and I think there's real powerto even that short of a pause
right.
I mean, sometimes taking apause is 10 seconds to something

(20:28):
hang in the air.
Sometimes taking a pause is youknow what we're going to, we're
going to wrap for a moment,we'll come back to this or let's
meet next week and talk again.
So there's something aboutslowing things down, which is
such a thing in trauma therapyto slowing things down and
leaving space.
And I think even in a moment ofpause where someone is tempted

(20:51):
to take the bait and this issomething I can do, I'm sure you
practice Anyone listening canjust build that, that sense of
dignity within yourself, likebuild out that land of dignity.
Last time we were talking aboutputting it in the water.
It's like build it from withinand then share it out around you
and it can transcend thoselayers between dignity for your

(21:15):
own inherent worth, for how youinteract with others and for
something even greater than that.
But if there's a moment where wewant to take the bait, like
it's real tempting, it could bereally easy to step into that
type of dynamic or the brain'slighting up.
In that way, if we pause,things change right.

(21:37):
Even just letting words hang inthe air, the person who said
them might actually start toconnect what they're saying.
Maybe not always, but there'san opportunity to just witness
what's happening and there's anopportunity to make new choices
right, or to even take thatmoment to access your prefrontal

(21:59):
cortex and to stay rather thanreact.
And that's such a thing I meanin the whole of my career
there's always been, especiallyworking with youth.
When I was working in juvenilejustice centers and places like
that.
There was such an emphasisbringing mindfulness there,
bringing yoga there, such anemphasis on that pause, on like
what if we can just learn torespond rather than react, so

(22:23):
that weaves into the 10temptations and navigating them.
And there's so many layers tothe different temptations but it
sounds like with this oneyou're seeing a lot taking the
bait.

Donna Hicks (22:34):
Yeah, that's what I'm seeing.
People are losing that space.
You know, you said we have tocreate some space for that pause
, and it's so true.
The other little tool that Ithink we mentioned the last time
I had a conversation with aneuroscientist and we were
talking about this, about whathappens when you get that

(22:54):
biological impulse triggered,you know, like that fight or
flight response triggered.
What do you do?
And I was saying, well, weshould just count to 10.
And she said, no, you know whatEverybody thinks counting to 10
is the good thing, but I cantell you from a neuroscientist
point of view that it doesn'twork.
What works is when you take 10deep breaths, because what's

(23:17):
happening, you know, when youfeel that impulse there's, she
said, there's all kinds ofcortisol, these hormones,
running through your body andyou have to stop and try to
intercept that process wherethat stuff is triggering you to
behave badly.
But 10 deep breaths, it reallydoes, and it doesn't have to be
like a big deal, but you just,like you said, pause, breathe

(23:41):
deeply, in and out, in and out,and it's remarkable how it can
calm us down.
And such a simple tool, we havewhat it takes to override these
impulses.
We do have what it takes, butwe just have to learn them.
We have to understand themNumber one.
We have to understand them,know that they're there and then
figure out some techniques tocalm down that amygdala that's

(24:07):
on fire in our brains.

Lisa Danylchuk (24:09):
And I know in the trauma world people are also
looking now more so even atshock like that first moment,
that milliseconds where our deepbrain orients to a threat and
and it might be these littleimpulses or things that happen
before we even go into fight orflight.
There's like an alert Right.

(24:29):
So I think, tracking that,slowing things down, taking even
one really slow quality breathif you can definitely five or 10
, if you can maybe even more insome way maybe even one really
slow quality breath, if you candefinitely five or 10, if you
can, maybe even more in somesense walk around the block and
come back.
So I'm curious for you if youcould build a society where

(24:52):
dignity is inherent and there'sawareness of the 10 temptations
to violate it.
What would look different thanwhat we have now?
What would be there that's notthere?
What sort of tools or supportswould people have?

Donna Hicks (25:13):
Well, the first thing that comes to my mind and
that's a wonderful question,I've never been asked that
before but the first thing thatcomes to my mind is that if
we're going to evolve out ofthis kind of biological
self-preservation impulse, ifwe're going to evolve out of
that, we need education, we needto understand ourselves, we

(25:35):
need to know all of this thatwe've just been talking about,
that we are hardwired forself-preservation and survival
and when threat comes, we gettriggered and we can behave
completely differently than wewould under circumstances that
aren't threatening.
So there's that, there'seducation.
I think right now we're at apoint where my colleagues and I

(25:58):
I mean I have people all overthe world working on this in
their local communities how tobring this into a school system.
So everybody develops thisconsciousness from a young age,
and I'll tell you what.
What we have learned is thatyoung kids get this so quickly.
They don't have the cognitivecapacity to put words to it, but

(26:20):
they know on the inside what itfeels like to be mistreated.
They have a deep, deepunderstanding and if you can
give them the words, you knowkid-friendly words.
As one of my elementary schoolteachers says, you've got to
give them kid-friendly words sothey'll understand it.
But I think this is going torequire education on a massive

(26:41):
level.
Everybody needs to.
It's like ABCs.
We have to add the D dignitywhen we're thinking about
primary education, secondaryeducation, university education
and, on the other end of it, inthe university.
So, for example, I've beenworking for 10 years now with a
professor at Fordham Universityhis name is Michael Pearson on

(27:06):
transforming business education.
And this, the reason why thisis so critical, is because
business employs so many peoplethat if the business world you
know, like you know, faithcommunities have their
congregants go to a church oncea week, right For an hour maybe,

(27:26):
but the business communitypeople are in their workplace
for at least 40 hours a week, ifnot more.
So just imagine the powerbehind a culture within a
workplace that is deeplyunderstanding of these dignity
issues and of these threatresponses, and if you could get

(27:49):
a leadership team.
This is why my second book,leading with Dignity, is why I
wrote it, because I realized thereach that the business world
has.
So it's education, yes, but it'salso practice, it's also
walking the talk.
So it's both learning.
It's learning a new way ofbeing together and learning that

(28:10):
, okay, I might not agree withsomebody who lives in another
part of my world here, but Icould learn how to disagree with
dignity.
I could learn how to disagreewith that person so that I'm not
making them feel bad aboutthemselves or feel bad in
general.
So you know, and we have thatcapacity, we humans we can do

(28:34):
that for each other.
We can either make each other'sday by treating each other with
dignity or we can make eachother miserable by violating
each other's dignity, and rightnow the pendulum has swung all
the way over to the violation,end of it.
So I'm a big advocate ofeducation.
At the same time, I think othercommunities, like the media,

(28:55):
could play a huge role in this,even movies.
We could have a movie industrythat focuses not on all the
negative stuff that you'resaying now, but shows us what it
looks like in film, what itlooks like to treat each other
well and what the world wouldend up being like if we had this
consciousness, if we hadevolved this consciousness,

(29:18):
because it really is a questionof evolving to a higher state.
This guy, john Nesbitt, he'sone of my favorite futurists.
He said and I quote him everytime I give a talk he said the
greatest breakthroughs of the21st century will not occur
because of technology, butbecause of an expanded concept

(29:39):
of what it means to be human.
So I mean, right now, thatrelationship we're off the
charts with technology and AI,and I mean, in fact, ai is
determining what it means to behuman.
We've got to catch up on theother side.
We have to figure out forourselves what humans are
struggling with, what are someinherent struggles and that's

(30:02):
like the temptations and whatare the inherent skills and
habits that we have to create inorder to be sure that we are
honoring somebody's dignity andnot insulting them and violating
.
So everybody could play a rolein this.
Arts, certainly the faithcommunities.
They already are trying.

(30:23):
But I think this new pope mightbe a good thing.
I think he believes in dignityfor sure.
So did the last one.
So you know, we're makingheadway, we as a human species,
but it's so darn slow.
I personally want to see thisaccelerated.
I want to see it happen faster.

Lisa Danylchuk (30:42):
I do too.
I'm right there with you.
See it happen faster.
I do too.
I'm right there with you.
And another thing I waswondering about your experience
is what do you do for yourselfon the days when you're just
seeing dignity violations leftand right and maybe you're
getting like pouring in requeststo speak and that's all fine
and wonderful for work andbusiness, but also sort of
overwhelming and a lot to carry.

(31:03):
And you've poured so muchenergy into creating something
positive and deepening ourunderstanding of what it is to
be human and what it means toconnect with ourselves and
others and to use this languageof dignity.
So what do you do for yourselfon days where it just feels like
I'm doing so much and I canonly do so much?

Donna Hicks (31:22):
Yeah, no, I, I'm pretty good at knowing my limits
.
I know when I have to take abreak and, for example, the one
thing that my husband and I dotogether at the end of every day
and we learned this duringCOVID when we were stuck inside
all the time there's a wonderful.
This is going to sound weird,but there's a beautiful cemetery

(31:46):
here, five minutes from wherewe live.
It was designed by FrederickLaw Olmsted.
He was the designer of CentralPark in New York.
He did this back in the 1830s,I think, designed this cemetery.
But what it is?
Yes, it's a cemetery, but it'san arboretum, as well.
And he planted the mostexquisite trees and bushes and

(32:09):
flowers and, like, we just gotthrough the magma season here in
the cemetery and they putlabels on the trees so you could
go up to it and say, oh, that'sthe white birch, so you can go
up and you can learn.
So ever since COVID this hasbeen our go-to stress relief is
to immerse ourselves in naturethere at the cemetery and we

(32:32):
could go for an hour walk.
That's how big this cemetery is.
It's very famous.
Like Ralph Waldo Emerson wasburied there.
A lot of the transcendentalphilosophers, anybody who's
anybody in the history of thisarea is buried there.
So it's being in nature, that'syes.

(32:52):
I think we're also being guidedby souls, you know, in the
cemetery.
Yeah, right, but more than thatand more than that, it's just
being in nature andunderstanding the awe and
recognizing the connections thatwe have to nature.
That calms us both down.
It doesn't take but 10 minutesto start that walk that we feel

(33:16):
that connection to somethingbigger than ourselves.

Lisa Danylchuk (33:20):
Yes, I have a trail nearby my house now and I
used to live by Mount AuburnCemetery.
Oh, you know what I'm talkingabout.
I lived in.
Watertown like two blocks fromit.

Donna Hicks (33:29):
Oh my God.
Well, that's where I live isWatertown.

Lisa Danylchuk (33:31):
When I was at Harvard, yeah yeah.
I can't even remember the nameof the street now, but just a
few blocks from that cemetery.
So I was just picturing walkingthrough there, so you know
Frederick Law Olmsted designedthat.

Donna Hicks (33:45):
I didn't know that no.

Lisa Danylchuk (33:47):
I mean it's beautiful and it's stunning and
many people take those peacefulwalks through there.
It always seems to feel like apeaceful place, Like it's just
maybe the care that went into it, Like you said, presence of the
souls that are there and thedepth of history that's there.
But finding a place that feelspeaceful and you feel connected

(34:07):
to nature or something greatertoo right, Like that third C in
the connection, finding a senseof connection to something
greater.
When I walk up this hill nearwhere I live now, I'm always
recentered and amazed by oh,things are all right.
Right, right now, I'm like Imight've just had my mind in

(34:28):
whatever story or experience orreality that's happening right
now.
But if I step out and I just mypartner Alex and I always just
call it up the hill, down thehill, because the trail there's
three benches Are you going tothe first bench, Are you going
to the second bench, Are yougoing to third bench and the top
bench, you can see the whole ofthe San Francisco Bay area.
So if you get up there likethere's some days where the

(34:49):
sun's setting really quickly andI'm like come on, so I can see
something, oh, that's stunning,that's stunning.
Just being there like the first,the first little climb, and you
just have a view of a golfcourse, which isn't the most

(35:12):
compelling thing, but just thatlittle perspective of looking at
the trees and the sky and thedirt and like hearing the birds
and seeing maybe a bunny or adeer or something going by, it
recenters me in this way of ohlike, this is actually okay
right now, this is safe, and Iknow some people feel unsafe in
nature, especially if it doesget dark, but there's oh like

(35:32):
everything seems to be okay,Even though I know I have a lot
of information in my mind thatcould make me feel threatened or
scared.
I actually feel more connectedand more safe in this moment
being out on the trail.
So I love that you and yourhusband go for that cemetery
walk and just connect with theartistry that's there, the
presence that's there, thenature that's there.

Donna Hicks (35:50):
All of that.

Lisa Danylchuk (35:51):
And it just comes back to like okay, here I
am, Let me just shift my world alittle bit after being in some
of those dignity violations or,you know, taking in some of the
energy of that.

Donna Hicks (36:03):
Yeah, you know, taking in some of the energy of
that, yeah, and the other thisisn't another example, but what
you just mentioned about how youknow I get all these calls and
I do, and in fact I felt likeand I continue, not so much
anymore, but when this stuffbroke about USAID and all these
other organizations that weregetting all these mass firings,

(36:26):
when I would have a conversationwith someone, as much as the
person was hurting and we were,I was really trying to console
them as much as all that painwas right there, right present
in front of me.
There was a sense of connectionthat I felt with the person

(36:46):
that I don't know it was, and weboth felt it.
That let's just I'm thinking ofthis one woman who called me
recently and that we both hadthis sense that you know what we
really do need to sticktogether.
We need we human?
We have to get our friends, wehave to get when we're feeling
that kind of despair.
And you know, she said thankyou so much for having a Zoom

(37:10):
call with me, because even shewas living in Nairobi or
something.
And she said now I just feelthat connection with you and
this is what we have to do foreach other, all of us.
If you sit in that trauma andthat despair and that sense of
depression, it'll completely eatyou up.
So, when reaching out is anotherthing that I did a lot of

(37:33):
reaching out to my friends, myfamily, my people I felt really
close to and just debriefed withthem, just downloaded some of
the sorrow that I wasexperiencing.
But connection, connection,connection, that's it.
That's the magic threesome.

Lisa Danylchuk (37:48):
There's also a sense of agency in what you're
describing.
That feels important and Ithink that comes through in your
work and in the 10 elements andeven in the 10 temptations.
You talk about victimization orbeing the victim being one of
those temptations.
But when we have a sense of ourown choice and our own power
and our own agency and ourability even to console one

(38:11):
another, to feel the sadness, tonot be alone in that again back
to connection, like when we canhave connection and agency,
that changes a lot and that'ssomething it's so interesting.
I was reflecting recently onthe last 10 years, like I first
started doing yoga in 1998.
I did my teacher training in2003.

(38:32):
I was thinking about what'schanged in my world and one of
the big things is just notfeeling a larger sense or
projection or worldview thatfeels shared, like I can't lean
on this institution in my brainthe way I used to.
The yoga school I came up in,which was very big and respected

(38:54):
and had a drive towardsexcellence in this amazing
community of people, doesn'texist anymore after the pandemic
.
It's online actually, andthere's very few teachers there
now.
So the community I should saytransformed.
It doesn't exist.
In the same way, there aren'tthe physical studios that I used
to go to, and that is somethingthat, when I was at UCLA, I
leaned on.
I leaned into that community togo practice together and we

(39:15):
disagreed right, we didn't.
Not everyone was vegan, it wasvery popular at the time.
But like, there was healthydiscourse, there was movement,
there was breath and even, Ithink, academics.
At times there's so muchinformation and there's so much
conflicting information that itcan just feel like there's this
lack of steadiness of like, well, what can I really lean on?

(39:37):
Like I can lean on science, butthis paper says that and this
school's turning out this, andso it takes time to build that
foundation, and I'm with you onlike, can we just move this
along?
I'm also wondering where do youfind a sense of steadiness?
I think your work is one placethat I can rest on.

(39:59):
Thank you for that.
Where do you find that sense ofsteadiness and connection as
you continue this work?

Donna Hicks (40:07):
Well, I keep getting.
Oh my gosh, I had the mostwonderful experience yesterday
that grounded me in a way that Ihaven't been grounded, I think,
quite as powerfully before.
And I have a nephew in Ecuador.
My husband is half Ecuadorianand he has family in Ecuador.
In Ecuador, my husband is halfEcuadorian and he has family in

(40:31):
Ecuador.
And my nephew spent a lot oftime with us when he was six
years old because he wasdiagnosed with a horrible cancer
, awful, awful cancer at six,and he and his mother and father
decided they wanted to come toBoston to get treatment because
it was the best place for childcancer I think it was Children's
Hospital or something like thathere.
And so we opened our doors tothem and we said, look, you can

(40:56):
stay with us.
And because they came and wentfor about two years, but for two
years we got so close to thislittle boy, this precious little
guy six years old, who washaving chemotherapy, and so you
can imagine what it was like.
You know, we sort of wentthrough agony with his parents

(41:17):
just hoping that this was goingto work.
And, long story short, he wascured, he bounced back after.
By the time he was like eightor nine years old.
He was just right back to beinga kid again.
So fast forward again and hebecomes politically active in
Ecuador and he becomes theminister of culture in Ecuador

(41:42):
Now.
So this kid is, I think, he Inever asked him this, but, and
I'm going to, but I think hefeels like he had a second
chance at life and he is.
He's the most wonderful,dignified young person that I
think I've ever met.
And anyway, he became active inpolitics and he was recently,

(42:04):
in the last couple of weeks,appointed as the president of
the National Assembly in Ecuador, which means it's the
equivalent of the Speaker of theHouse here, mike Johnson.
But what he did was I had givenhim a copy of Leading with
Dignity when he had his previousappointment as Minister of
Culture and he read it and hejust like he took to it in a way

(42:28):
that he felt like this is whatI need to do when I become more
powerful in my leadershippositions.
And he wrote this op-ed pieceon Sunday about leading with
dignity and he explained how myAunt Donna helped me understand
how important it is to lead withdignity and when I went through

(42:49):
it and he talked about thisbook my book and I'm thinking,
oh my gosh.
And then I realized the powerthat this young person he's now
30-something the power that thisyoung man has now because he's
using this leading with dignityas his way of leadership in the
political realm.
I mean, it's unheard of inLatin America, absolutely

(43:11):
unheard of.
And so, knowing that I made thatpossible for him, that he is
grounded in the dignity modelnow, and that had a
reverberation effect on me, Ithought, oh my gosh, this, maybe
we can really see bigger,faster change.
Maybe we can do this if theseyoung people sign on to this

(43:33):
kind of leadership, whether it'sin politics or business or
education.
And so it grounded me in thatbelief again that dignity is the
way forward, dignity is theantidote.
But I know that's a little bitof a diversion, that story.
But you can imagine how excitedI was, my husband and I both,

(43:55):
how excited we were that thiskid is going to lead with
dignity.
So yeah it just made me want towork harder and harder, to tell
you the truth, to get this outthere quicker and faster, and
maybe through politics.
Maybe that's the way to do it.

Lisa Danylchuk (44:10):
Yeah, you're going to run for office.

Donna Hicks (44:13):
No, I'll support other.
I'll support you.
I'll support you.
Oh, my God, finger on nose.

Lisa Danylchuk (44:18):
Last person in California needs you, I know,
and it makes me think of so manythings as you're talking.
One, the opportunity to buildthe relationship at a young age,
in a vulnerable time, and I'dimagine that, even though this
young man read your book whilehe's working in politics in
Ecuador in his 30s, that theinteractions with you and the

(44:43):
exposure to your work throughthat lens, the invitation to
stay with family, like themodeling and the experience of
being treated with dignity, andit's a successful cancer story,
right when you beat the cancerand he's bouncing back and
that's amazing.
It makes me wonder about.

(45:04):
I know some people who'veworked at Children's who are
really amazing right, yes, treatthe kids with dignity.
So it just makes me think ofthat role and that modeling and
that experience and the seedsthat are planted there, in
addition to then connecting itcognitively when you're in this
position to actually make change.
And Jacinda Ardern who was thePrime Minister of New Zealand

(45:26):
from 2017 to 2023, now has anorganization that brings leaders
together in politics who wantto lead with empathy.
So, it just makes me think of,and she talks about how there
are actually a lot of people inpolitics who really, really care
, and this is their platform,like her platform in New Zealand

(45:47):
was kindness Right and she wonand so she did.
And so having those, I wasthinking for myself, oh, what if
I had these role models growingup, right?

Donna Hicks (46:00):
And so we do have those role models.

Lisa Danylchuk (46:03):
I'd love for there to be more, but there are
a lot of people who, just likeyour nephew, who are resonating,
who are bringing this topolitics in places where it
hasn't been there, and thatbrings me hope.
I usually ask people at the endof this podcast what brings you
hope?
But you just dropped abeautiful there it is right
there.
Yeah, what brings a sense ofhope for dignity.

(46:25):
And we talk a lot in the traumaworld about vicarious trauma,
but there's also vicarioushealing and resilience and
growth, and I think all of yourwork is such a map for that.
So if people who are listeninghaven't dug into it, encourage
you to dig into it more andbring it into whatever wherever
you are in the world right now.
Because you mentioned schooland business and that's like I

(46:46):
find myself thinking okay, well,if you add in sleep and eating,
that just covers all of life,right.

Donna Hicks (46:52):
Oh, healthcare.
Healthcare is another one.
I've been in healthcare a lot,so that covers a big base
talking about healing, but theydon't really talk about healing
dignity violations yet I don'tthink.
We'll see, we'll see.

Lisa Danylchuk (47:07):
Yeah, hopefully we can get there and even just
building the platform to stayconnected while we disagree.
You've given so many examplestoday of just language we can
use, whether we're invitingsomeone to a conversation or
just staying connected indisagreement.
I feel like that is such afoundation in terms of healing,

(47:31):
like we can stay connected toourselves when there's different
emotions or pulls, or we canstay connected to each other
when we have differentexperiences and we can stay
curious.
There's so much hope in yourwork, and so I want to thank you
for everything you've put intoit over all these years, for
everything you're continuing toput into it, and just encourage
people to visit your website,drdonnahickscom, to follow your

(47:53):
work, to amplify it, to share it, to get it into ourselves, to
get it into the water, to buildit from the inside out and the
outside in in every single waywe can.
Thank you so much for all of it.
Is there anything else you'dlike to share today before we
wrap?

Donna Hicks (48:10):
Well, there's only I always end with this, no
matter.
I mean, I've done many podcasts, as you can imagine.
I like people to think aboutwhether they are connected to
their own dignity.
You know, because when I goaround and work in organizations
, the first thing that we do isto be sure that first connection

(48:31):
because we say dignity,consciousness requires
connection, connection,connection, connection to your
own dignity, connection to thedignity of others and the
connection to something greaterthan yourself we don't have that
first connection really secure,that we haven't embraced and
celebrated our own inherentvalue and worth.

(48:51):
That's where we have to start.
We have to start withrecognizing and accepting and
taking in.
I am worthy, no matter what.

Lisa Danylchuk (49:02):
Yes, and I'm wondering if there's any bridge
you'd like to share with theaudience, maybe for yourself, or
something you've witnessed thattakes people from I'm not
worthy of dignity to maybe I am.
Oh, yeah, I am.

Donna Hicks (49:24):
Well, I think it has to do with trauma and
previous dignity violations.
You know, just recognizing thatone of the reasons why we have
so much self-doubt instead ofembracing our dignity and
recognizing our dignity isbecause we've been wounded.
You know, we've beentraumatized, we've been wounded
by all these dignity violationsbecause they, like we started

(49:46):
saying they're in the air,they're everywhere and unless we
put together, oh, the reasonthat I'm feeling bad is not
because I am bad, it's becausesomething bad happened to me and
I need to heal from that, youknow.
So it's externalizing theproblem.

(50:07):
Like I'm, like I'm worthy, but Ihad several dignity violations
when I was a young kid and thatwas my bridge, because I had a
lot of dignity violations as ayoung child and so recognizing
that, oh no, I wasn't a badlittle girl, something bad
happened to me.
I had people and events whowere traumatized themselves, who

(50:29):
were treating me badly.
Because that whole trauma cyclecontinues on and on until we
stop it and say, no, I'm worthy,no matter what.
You know, I have had somethingwrong.
I feel like there's somethingwrong with me, but it isn't me.
Something wrong and badhappened to me.
So that transition that's thebridge that helped me get

(50:49):
through.
Something wrong with me, but itisn't me.
Something wrong and badhappened to me.
So that transition, that's thebridge that helped me get
through.
And now I mean once I'veembraced my dignity.
This was only maybe a coupledecades ago, but sky's the limit
for me.
Sky's the limit I'm notstopping.
Nobody's going to stop me frombeing creative and helping
others and contributing to thewelfare of the of humanity.

(51:10):
Nothing's going to stop methat's it.

Lisa Danylchuk (51:13):
Yeah, celebrate it so powerful and yeah, we talk
about putting dignity in thewater and I'm have this image,
as you're talking, of thereverse, which is like we do for
our drinking water filteringfilter it out maybe the dignity
is actually the water.
Maybe the dignity is actuallyand once you filter out the
harms or the yeah things thatare harmful, all the toxic

(51:35):
toxins yeah we get that out andit's like, oh yeah, well, that
was.
That was just something thatimpacted me was something else,
but the whole of who I am, itit's deep work and I think part
of the process of your work andthe reason it takes time is
because it does ask us to gopretty deep.
Right, it's not just 10 stepsand done.

(52:01):
Right, it's ongoing, it's deep,it requires humility, it
requires reflection and it'sdynamic in that way.
So, thank, continuing with it,and I encourage everyone
listening to keep keeppracticing this dignity
consciousness.
Yes, see it everywhere.

(52:24):
It's a superpower to see it andit's also necessary to see
beyond it.
This fall, I'm offering a newclass Freedom from Trauma.
In it, I'll describe why it'sessential for us to identify
trauma and how we can approachhealing in a way that we don't
end up swimming.
In it You'll learn simple, notalways easy perspective and

(52:47):
practices to help you move outof the trauma vortex and stand
in something stronger and morepowerful than the impacts of
harm.
I'm looking forward to sharingwhat I know with you in this new
way.
Visit howwecanhealcom forwardslash freedom from trauma to
register for the training.
Thank you so much for listening.

(53:10):
Now I'd really love to hearfrom you what resonated with you
in this episode and what's onyour mind and in your heart.
As we bring this conversationto a close, email me at info at
howwecanhealcom, or share youranswers and what's been healing
for you in the comments onInstagram, where you'll find me

(53:35):
at HowWeCanHeal.
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(53:55):
and keep sharing the shows youlove the most with all your
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Visit howwecanhealcom forwardslash podcast to share your
thoughts and ideas for the show.
I always, always love hearingfrom you.
Before we wrap up for today, Iwant to be super clear that this
podcast isn't offeringprescriptions.
It's not advice, nor is it anykind of mental health treatment

(54:19):
or diagnosis.
Your decisions are in yourhands and I encourage you to
consult with any healthcareprofessionals you may need to
support you through your uniquepath of healing.
In addition, everyone's opinionhere is their own, and opinions
can change.
Guests share their thoughts,not that of the host or sponsors

(54:39):
.
I'd like to thank our gueststoday and everyone who helps
support this podcast directlyand indirectly.
Alex, thanks for taking care ofthe babe and taking the fur
babies out while I record.
Last and never least, I'd liketo give a special shout out to
my big brother, matt, who passedaway in 2002.
He wrote this music and itmakes my heart so very happy to

(55:01):
share it with you here.
Thank you.