August 26, 2024 • 26 mins
In this episode, we’re discussing how to ensure your sales teams are focused on the right sales activities to drive performance.
And joining me to help break it all down is Jeff Clewett, Director of Sales at Bonneville Denver, and Emily Estey, VP/Senior Consultant here at CSS.
Both offer some amazing points to think about, like:
- Why too many sales managers treat everything as an emergency when they need to be prioritizing and filtering the right information for their teams
- How target drives can help put a spotlight on the activities that actually make you money
- And, finally, if you’re coaching Michael Phelps, you’re not going to teach him to run.
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Jeff Clewett
Emily Estey
Matt Sunshine
The Center for Sales Strategy
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Sunshine (00:05):
Welcome to Improving Sales Performance, a
podcast highlighting tips andinsights aimed at helping sales
organizations realize, and maybeeven exceed, their goals.
Here we chat with thoughtleaders, experts and gurus who
have years of sales experiencefrom a wide range of industries.
I'm your host, matt Sunshine,ceo at the Center for Sales
Strategy, a sales performanceconsulting company.
(00:27):
In this episode, we'rediscussing how to ensure your
sales teams are focused on theright sales activities to drive
performance.
Joining me to discuss that andso much more, is Jeff Clewett,
director of Sales at Bonneville,denver, and Emily Estey, vp,
(00:49):
senior Consultant, here at CSS.
Both offer some amazing pointsto think about, like why too
many sales managers treateverything as an emergency when
they need to be prioritizing andfiltering the right information
for their teams, how targetdrives can help put a spotlight
on the activities that actuallymake you money.
(01:11):
And finally, if you're coachingMichael Phelps, you're not
going to teach him how to runWith that.
Let's start the conversationconversation.
(01:32):
So, jack, in your experience,what are the biggest challenges
that sales leaders face inkeeping their teams really
focused on the right activities?
Not just work, but the rightactivities.
Jeff Clewett (01:42):
Inherently, it's the leadership themselves.
I think we can pose or be thebiggest hurdle to communication
and clear focus because of allthe agendas and things we have
to focus on, whether it behearing things from other levels
of leadership, other strategiesthat are being implemented on
the fly.
Our goal is to make sure wekeep horse blinders on our teams
(02:02):
and make sure that we get todecipher where the real focus
should be, regardless of what'schanging on spreadsheets or on
charts.
We got to make sure that ourteam is always focused, based on
what we're telling them isimportant.
Matt Sunshine (02:17):
Yeah, emily, anything to add to that?
Emily Estey (02:19):
I would just.
I think that a lot and I thinkit's hard, but I think a lot of
sales managers kind of treateverything as an emergency.
You know, everything that popsup has to be dealt with.
Right now there's just aprioritization that needs to
happen with every bit ofinformation that they're getting
.
And then there's also, like adam that needs to happen, like
(02:40):
what am I going to deal with andwhat am I going to move forward
to with my team?
You know what I mean, likethey're I going to deal with and
what am I going to move forwardto with my team.
You know what I mean, like whatthey're kind of the filter, so
it doesn't all have to godownhill, but what does.
So I think it's prioritizationand filtering the right
information.
Matt Sunshine (02:56):
Yeah, it does.
It reminds me of, in TFM, thewhole bell ringing exercise.
There's a lot of noise comingat us all the time.
Yeah, all right.
So, jeff, can you share somereal life ways, some practical
ways that either you or thatyou've seen others?
(03:17):
How sales leaders leverage data.
I know you guys, where you are,you have a lot of data.
So how do you leverage thatdata to guide the sales team
towards the best actions to take, the most effective actions to
take?
Jeff Clewett (03:34):
Yeah, well, just like you know I compared a lot
to baseball.
Right, for those fans out therewho know Saber metrics, the
advanced stats and whatnot, youknow a lot of the old school
baseball coaches go well, Istill coach with gut and feel
and everything else, and I thinkthere's credence to both.
The data is informative.
It shows you where you might begetting slowed down at a
(03:57):
certain level of the process.
So where I think the data makesthe most sense for sales
leadership is it's reallyguiding the areas you need to
focus on, you need to train upor you need to really hone in on
to make sure that the obstaclesare not there in the process.
You know we talk about busyactivities versus productive
(04:19):
activities, and what the datawould tell us is you know volume
is not the goal here.
We often refer to as emptycalories.
You're just doing stuff to dostuff.
It doesn't make sense.
You know, if you have anoutcome in mind, we're in the
outcomes business.
What's the next step?
You know sales is all aboutinertia and that data helps us
inform where we're gettingplugged up and where we can make
(04:41):
some action to get past it.
Emily Estey (04:43):
Yeah.
Matt Sunshine (04:45):
Yeah, empty calories is fantastic.
I love that.
Emily Estey (04:49):
Right, and that's going to bubble up right, If
you're tracking sales processand things aren't moving forward
.
We know what we're doing.
We're doing something else.
You're clearly busy but you'renot doing the right thing.
And just to Jeff's point, Ilove that.
It's like.
One of the things I love mostabout a target drive is being
able to track activity and thenassign.
You know, oh, we clearly needskill development, either as a
(05:12):
group or individually.
You know, that's one of thethings I love about, you know,
target drives in general is wecan, we can.
There's so much learning thatcomes out of it.
Jeff Clewett (05:21):
Yeah, and Matt, I've heard you say it many times
before you know you go home ona Friday and you're driving home
you go what?
How do I know I had a good week?
Matt Sunshine (05:30):
Everyone deserves to know if they had a good week
.
Jeff Clewett (05:32):
Everyone wants to know, before they go, eat all
those calories that actuallymatter.
Being a father of three, I eatmany calories.
Maybe that's why it comes tomind, but yeah, it's.
What outcomes did you achievethis week?
Not, what did you do what didyou accomplish?
Matt Sunshine (05:54):
Yeah, very few people are sitting around doing
nothing, right?
So it's like let's take thatoff the table.
Everyone's doing a lot,everyone's busy, very productive
.
But, emily, you brought uptarget drives, so let's delve
into target drives a little bitdeeper.
While target drives cancertainly be a big motivator
we've all seen target drives bethe motivator they can be
(06:16):
Sometimes, though, they can leadto focus.
They can lead people to believethat the focus is on quantity
over quality.
So how can sales leadersutilize target drives
effectively while still makingsure that they're encouraging
the really good, tried and trueselling practices?
(06:39):
Who wants it?
Go ahead, annie?
Emily Estey (06:45):
I was just thinking about.
You know, we did a target drive, a really very successful
target drive, in Denver lastyear and I think part of what we
did you know Jeff was hyperfocused on making sure that we
were talking to qualityprospects and I actually came
into the market and helped theteams identify.
(07:07):
You know, they came to me withtheir list and we were like yes,
no, yes, no, yes, yes.
You know these are the, soreally diving in.
If you're not starting, this isgoing to sound obvious, but if
you're not starting with thequality, you're not, it's just
not going to work.
And I I feel like by reallychoosing the right prospects,
that target drive went really bythe AEs choosing the right
(07:31):
prospects, that that targetdrive went really well.
It started on the right foot.
Jeff Clewett (07:36):
Yeah, I think it's from what we learned last year
and years past of doing this andthey've all been successful.
Every time we've instituted atarget drive is again it goes
back to question one right.
We're getting everyone back onone singular focus.
At this point in time, thequality of who you're talking to
.
It's almost like a confessionalright, emily, where we get them
(07:57):
in there.
We're talking and you see,about five of the targets that
were on there for three monthsjust disappear.
Yeah, suddenly it's go time.
Now you're training and you'rehoping to instill the actions
and the processes where yourteam's always acting that way
and always following the targetprocess.
But to really put thatspotlight on it, for a 12 week
period or however long, you wantto conduct target drive, it's
(08:20):
truth serum, right, and then youget out of the I'm just doing
this to look good or to check abox and it turns into the
actions and activities areactually going to make me some
money and help my clients.
Emily Estey (08:34):
That's right, and it also, I think one of the
things that it really does is ithelps highlight those parts of
the sales process where wereally can, where our AEs can
really move the needle, andthat's in the connect phase,
like, speed up that part of theprocess.
You can speed it up and you can.
You can then find out if theclient's going to engage or not
(08:54):
with you, which is great, GreatFine.
But you're like, okay, you have, you know, what we would do is
like do you think you can, you,you can close this client in 12
weeks and they'll be like well,no, like well, why not?
Because you're not speeding upthe process.
Where you can speed it up, youknow, by doing a better needs
analysis, by advising the client, you know, I don't know.
I think it just reallyhighlights the steps of the
(09:14):
process and you know Jeff's teamdoes a great job with those, so
I think they like it too.
Jeff Clewett (09:20):
Sorry, matt, I was just going to add that what
often gets lost in a targetdrive and the reason we love to
do them earlier on in the yearis the dividends that pay out
after the 12 weeks.
Because for 12 weeks, justgetting that singular focus
again early on in a year, youknow you may not have someone
convert in 12 weeks but you'redoing everything you can and
you're flipping out more peopleand you're working harder
(09:43):
towards that main singularobjective.
You know, months from nowyou're having conversations with
these target level qualityaccounts that maybe weren't
ready yet or they have all theother boxes checked.
So you're doing the work earlyto pay dividends later in the
year as well, which I love aboutthe target drive.
Matt Sunshine (10:01):
I have two things to add.
One of my favorite because Ican.
One of my favorite things iswhen, when I'm asked to be
brought in to kind of help vetwhether or not something is a
good target account or not and Ilistened to the stories of this
is such a good target accountI've actually had them
(10:24):
identified for over a year thatblah, blah, blah and I just
usually just say okay, so what'sgoing to happen?
Oh, you've tried for a year toget an appointment with no luck,
and I know you've tried what'sgoing to happen over the next
two to three weeks.
That makes you believe all of asudden, because we said target
(10:45):
drive, that you're going to getan appointment.
I think you probably did a goodjob for the last year.
I think you have been doing agood job.
So what's about to happen?
Jeff Clewett (10:57):
Well, and you know what I find funny about that is
, I think, as a kid, getting abrand new skateboard.
You don't want to ride itbecause you want to get all
scratched up right.
They find this target.
They work so hard becausethey're not easy, right it's?
not if we all did it, we'd allbe on a beach somewhere, right,
right, it would be easy.
It's not easy, but once theyget them, they're afraid they'll
(11:18):
burn them out with the touches.
They're afraid.
But then, when you actuallyhave them go, okay, it's time to
do the touches.
It's time for target drive.
Some of those come to fruitionbecause now you're following the
rest of the process.
Matt Sunshine (11:29):
Yeah.
Jeff Clewett (11:30):
Baby, guarding it from from ruining this
opportunity that works so hardto identify.
Matt Sunshine (11:35):
So I think I've been waiting for the right
moment.
Ok, one other thing, though, alittle pet peeve of mine that
I'll share sales, sales petpeeve.
That speaks to speeding up theprocess, and I think that if
everybody adopted this, it wouldspeed up the process.
Why do salespeople find itnecessary to say, well, how
(11:59):
about we get together same timenext week?
I don't understand why sametime next week is allowed.
Why not same time tomorrow?
Why, right?
I think we as salespeople have acomfort level with, okay,
today's Wednesday or today'sThursday, whatever.
(12:20):
How about next Thursday we meet?
Why not tomorrow?
Or why not?
I mean slow kills deals, speedit up.
Let's not lose contact.
I mean, you know people always,you know analogies about dating
and stuff are always sometimes,but when you first start dating
(12:41):
someone, you don't go weeks inbetween each date.
Right, you go, let's see eachother tomorrow, let's see each
other again tomorrow, and Ithink we need to.
That could speed up the salesprocess a lot, so that what
we're talking about now isactivity.
So let's stay focused onactivities for a second.
(13:01):
The right activities requireconsistent action.
What strategies can do?
You guys think and Jeff, I'llcome to you on this one what
sales.
What strategies can salesleaders use to create a culture
within their team where focusingon the right activities not
just any activities, but theright activities becomes a habit
(13:25):
, a daily habit?
Jeff Clewett (13:28):
Well, here we try to focus on, you know, the old
carrot or the stick, right.
We don't want to be in thebusiness of punitive actions or
anything like that.
We want to reinforce goodbehaviors and that's what builds
the culture and builds habits,right.
So for us, it's aboutidentifying those things that we
think move the ball the fastestand the most.
(13:48):
Things, like you identified,Matt, about the speed in which
you can get back to a client orstay in front of them, or the
amount of proposals you can getout versus the amount of calls
you're making.
There's certain actions thatreally tell the story and for us
to highlight them every week insales meetings, to have a
(14:09):
scoreboard that shows peopledoing a great job in these
certain areas.
That may not hit the dollarsyet, but they show the KPIs that
lead to dollars more so thanthe volume, the empty calorie
activities of calls and emailsand the rest of that stuff.
So really focusing in andhighlighting and rewarding the
behavior we want to see, justlike any good habits.
You want to have little, littlecheck marks along the way that
(14:32):
you feel like you're on theright path and you're being
rewarded for it.
That's important to us.
Matt Sunshine (14:37):
Emily, what are your thoughts on this?
Emily Estey (14:39):
I think you know, I think it comes in.
We're going to start some ofthis work in Denver, but I think
it comes back to, you know,really focused IFMs on the right
behaviors.
So the things that we're thethings that we're talking about
are what our people are going topay attention to, right.
I think it's that simple.
So you know, and I get I'm nottrying to Pollyanna this because
(15:04):
I know there's emergencies Iknow there's things that pop up,
but it's really the job of asales manager to be like okay,
is this, is this the?
You know?
And with Jeff, it starts withthe objective Is this going to
get us, you know, the farthest,fastest, like, is this activity
right now?
Check that box, I think isreally smart.
But I also think you know whatwe talk about is what our people
(15:25):
are going to do, and I thinkthat starts with an IFM.
But that's, you know, that's myhumble opinion.
Talking about target accounts,talking about, you know, growth
in key accounts, but yeah,that's what I would.
Matt Sunshine (15:39):
Whatever the drumbeat is of the sales manager
is, is what the is what thesales department does.
Emily Estey (15:49):
Exactly.
Matt Sunshine (15:50):
Exactly In almost every situation that that we
look at that, we see that wetalk about on this, on this
podcast.
If it's the if it's what'simportant to the sales manager,
becomes what's important to theteam.
All right, so, speaking aboutwhat's uh, speaking on the topic
of what's important to thesales manager, one of the things
(16:13):
that's important to salesmanagers is developing their
people.
So how can leaders personalizetheir approach to coaching and
giving guidance so that theyensure each team member is
focusing on the activities thatthey're best suited to their
(16:33):
strengths?
How do you do that Like in reallife, irl, as they say, in real
life.
How does that happen?
You're so hip, matt, I am.
You're so hip, matt, I am.
Jeff Clewett (16:44):
It's me.
Matt Sunshine (16:45):
Yeah exactly.
Jeff Clewett (16:46):
Well, I think a big step of that is the people
I'm talking to on this call.
I mean, css has a model withthe STA platform to understand
people's personality types,their strengths, their
weaknesses.
We've always talked about Ithink of Beth when I think about
this.
Matt is, you know the MichaelPhelps philosophy.
You're not going to teach himto run if he's a great swimmer.
(17:08):
So I think Emily and I havebeen on many calls and we talked
through it and we strategizearound that data.
So, going back to the datapoints and go well, this person
has a high sense of achievement.
So let's find a way for them tofeel the victories and feel
they're accomplishing somethingevery step of the way.
(17:29):
But maybe somebody else,they're really driven by
competition how we put them in amodel or some kind of setting
where they feel they'recompeting against their peers
and they're feeling thatmotivation.
So the individual strategies iscritical.
You know, sales is not one sizefits all.
Everyone has differentstrengths, everyone has
different weaknesses.
But really it's about leaninginto the strengths, not
(17:50):
addressing the weaknesses.
You know, if you're MichaelPhelps, we're going to go swim
or swim hard, versus telling youto go jump or run a lap or
something else.
What would you think, emily?
Emily Estey (18:00):
I was just thinking about.
We did coaching with one ofJeff's sales managers and she
has an innate sense of talentand she was motivating people
like naturally, like based on,which was super, super cool,
Really cool.
Yeah, I know it's a superpower,but I did like a few coaching
(18:25):
sessions with her and it wasjust validating what she already
was doing, which was reallypowerful for her as a manager to
know that she was kind of doingthe right things, naturally,
based on people's individualtalents.
But you know, Jeff and I talkabout this a lot Like we are
really engaged in the talentpiece and I think and so are his
(18:47):
managers Like they really wantto find out how they can
motivate the team based onconsistent talent across the
board, but really focused on howto how to manage individuals,
and I just think it makes peoplefeel really seen, you know, if,
if, if you're really, if you'rereally talking to people how
they want to be talked to.
That's broad, but I think itreally um, make sure people feel
(19:12):
like you care about them, um,and that you're motivating them
in a way that's really just easyfor them to comply Right, Just
easy for them to do.
Jeff Clewett (19:21):
I love that you brought in validation there too,
because I think that's a bigpiece of it.
You know, am I doing the rightthings?
It's not always an exercise andyou need to do it completely
differently, but if you're amanager and you're struggling
with certain people on certainthings, knowing there's a lever
there that presents itself thatyou can pull you know exactly
that that will have an impact isincredibly, uh, helpful and
(19:44):
gives you a lot of hope thatyou're heading in the right
direction.
Matt Sunshine (19:48):
I'll add a couple of things to this.
This point Number one tellingpeople what to do is not
coaching them Right.
It's telling people what to do,and sometimes and sometimes
that's necessary, but that's notcoaching.
So we should distinguishbetween two of them.
And one of the biggest and oneof the best ways to coach people
(20:09):
but often the mostunderutilized way is to
acknowledge what they're doingright, to share with them the
good stuff that they're doing.
And we see this in TFM andtalent focused management, the
workshop where we ask people togive someone feedback, and, sure
(20:31):
enough, all the feedback thatthey give is what the person's
not doing doing correct.
And there are probably thingsthat the person's not doing
correct that need to be coachedup, but the person did a lot of
things that were correct.
Also, in training ourselves tospot the good is something that
(20:53):
we can do to personalize ourapproach, especially if we know
what their natural strengths are, and now we can comment on hey,
you did a great job motivatingthat person.
They came in here feeling oneway.
They left here feeling anotherway.
Awesome job motivating thatperson.
I mean, if you know that thatperson has strength there, now
(21:17):
you just complimented or toldthem specifically what they did
or how they changed someone'sbehavior.
They're going to love that andthrive because of it.
Emily Estey (21:25):
Yeah, for sure.
I was just going to say Ialways and I, I started this
when my kids were teen, firstteenagers, and it was the see
something, say something.
If you see it, say it.
It's so easy for us to seesomething and be like that was
great and then walk away Like noactually.
I remember this so vividly.
I remember my son taking thegarbage out one day and I was
(21:48):
like I really appreciate you,Thank you so much for doing that
, and he looked at me likeyou're welcome, you know the
garbage out right and he'd takeit out.
I'm like yep, See something,say something.
I love that.
Jeff Clewett (22:07):
I think there's so many parallels right with this
job and being a parent.
I laugh with Emily a lot.
I'm like.
I think I had the sameconversation with my
six-year-old son yesterday.
It's not to say it's a matterof intelligence or anything.
We're all human beings.
We're all wired a certain way.
We tend to lean into goodfeedback and try to stay away
(22:28):
from bad feedback.
Right People don't like beingcorrected you know Right and
they feel micromanaged or theydon't feel like you appreciate
the strengths.
So I think that's an amazingpoint.
And I'm taking that one homewith me too.
So thank you, Evelyn, You'rewelcome.
Matt Sunshine (22:43):
All right, so let's wrap this up.
Final question If either of youhad to provide one piece of
advice or guidance for salesmanagers looking to better focus
their teams on the rightactivities, what would you give?
What would be your piece ofadvice, jeff?
Jeff Clewett (23:04):
I'm going to channel Steve Jobs here and say
focus means saying no to goodideas and or focus means saying
no to things.
I think oftentimes we havesquirrel type behavior in this
business.
We have emergencies, we havedistractions, but again, if you
have a singular goal in mind andit's a good one and it's
something you can measureagainst and keep yourself
(23:26):
accountable to through eitherthe data or the follow up, you
know it's all about meaningfulactions, so marrying those to
the path you're taking, to yourgoals and making sure that
you're consistent.
You got to block out thedistractions and I think
leadership plays such a strongrole in that.
To your point earlier, matt is,we're beating the drum play
(23:48):
such a strong role in that.
To your point earlier, matt iswe're we're beating the drum and
if we're ringing too many bells, you're asking your people to
do a lot of things at once,which is very difficult for
anyone to do so yeah, absolutely, emily I was just.
Emily Estey (23:58):
I would have said what we were just talking about
talk about the things thatmatter and give positive
feedback when you see execution.
Matt Sunshine (24:04):
I mean pretty simple but that's what I would.
I think, you know, I don I meanbut that's what I would.
Emily Estey (24:09):
I think you know, I don't know.
I think that's.
I think again, talking aboutwhat things that matter, talking
about the, the things that aregoing to move the.
You know to your point, jeff,faster and farther, you know,
love, love that.
I think that's a great.
Faster and farther is a good,that's a good.
Uh, you know what things aregoing to do that for us and use
every, everything that comes upin your day Does that move me
(24:31):
faster and farther, faster andfarther, love that.
Matt Sunshine (24:34):
Absolutely.
This has been such a greatconversation.
Both of you just shared so manygreat nuggets of information,
some great advice.
Anybody watching or listeningthis is going to come away from
this type of a podcast withactionable items, and for that I
say thank you.
(24:54):
But I also know that anyonelistening and watching also says
thank you, because a lot oftimes you listen to podcasts
it's theoretical stuff, and Ithink today we were really able
to get a little bit beyondtheory and get into some
practical reality.
So thank you both for that.
And I know if people want toget a hold of you.
(25:15):
You guys are both veryapproachable.
We'll put your LinkedIn contactinformation in the show notes so
that anyone listening wants toget a hold of Jeff or with Emily
.
That's how.
That's probably the very bestway to do it and for everyone
listening or watching, thank youso much for joining us and we
look forward to seeing you onthe next episode of the
(25:38):
Improving Sales PerformancePodcast.
This has been Improving SalesPerformance.
Thanks for listening.
If you like what you heard,join us every week by clicking
the subscribe button For more onthe topics covered in the show.
Visit our website,thecenterforsalesstrategycom.
There you can find helpfulresources and content aimed at
(25:59):
improving your sales performance.
You.
Welcome to Improving Sales Performance, a
podcast highlighting tips andinsights aimed at helping sales
organizations realize, and maybeeven exceed, their goals.
Here we chat with thoughtleaders, experts and gurus who
have years of sales experiencefrom a wide range of industries.
I'm your host, matt Sunshine,ceo at the Center for Sales
Strategy, a sales performanceconsulting company.
(00:27):
In this episode, we'rediscussing how to ensure your
sales teams are focused on theright sales activities to drive
performance.
Joining me to discuss that andso much more, is Jeff Clewett,
director of Sales at Bonneville,denver, and Emily Estey, vp,
(00:49):
senior Consultant, here at CSS.
Both offer some amazing pointsto think about, like why too
many sales managers treateverything as an emergency when
they need to be prioritizing andfiltering the right information
for their teams, how targetdrives can help put a spotlight
on the activities that actuallymake you money.
(01:11):
And finally, if you're coachingMichael Phelps, you're not
going to teach him how to runWith that.
Let's start the conversationconversation.
(01:32):
So, jack, in your experience,what are the biggest challenges
that sales leaders face inkeeping their teams really
focused on the right activities?
Not just work, but the rightactivities.
Jeff Clewett (01:42):
Inherently, it's the leadership themselves.
I think we can pose or be thebiggest hurdle to communication
and clear focus because of allthe agendas and things we have
to focus on, whether it behearing things from other levels
of leadership, other strategiesthat are being implemented on
the fly.
Our goal is to make sure wekeep horse blinders on our teams
(02:02):
and make sure that we get todecipher where the real focus
should be, regardless of what'schanging on spreadsheets or on
charts.
We got to make sure that ourteam is always focused, based on
what we're telling them isimportant.
Matt Sunshine (02:17):
Yeah, emily, anything to add to that?
Emily Estey (02:19):
I would just.
I think that a lot and I thinkit's hard, but I think a lot of
sales managers kind of treateverything as an emergency.
You know, everything that popsup has to be dealt with.
Right now there's just aprioritization that needs to
happen with every bit ofinformation that they're getting
.
And then there's also, like adam that needs to happen, like
(02:40):
what am I going to deal with andwhat am I going to move forward
to with my team?
You know what I mean, likethey're I going to deal with and
what am I going to move forwardto with my team.
You know what I mean, like whatthey're kind of the filter, so
it doesn't all have to godownhill, but what does.
So I think it's prioritizationand filtering the right
information.
Matt Sunshine (02:56):
Yeah, it does.
It reminds me of, in TFM, thewhole bell ringing exercise.
There's a lot of noise comingat us all the time.
Yeah, all right.
So, jeff, can you share somereal life ways, some practical
ways that either you or thatyou've seen others?
(03:17):
How sales leaders leverage data.
I know you guys, where you are,you have a lot of data.
So how do you leverage thatdata to guide the sales team
towards the best actions to take, the most effective actions to
take?
Jeff Clewett (03:34):
Yeah, well, just like you know I compared a lot
to baseball.
Right, for those fans out therewho know Saber metrics, the
advanced stats and whatnot, youknow a lot of the old school
baseball coaches go well, Istill coach with gut and feel
and everything else, and I thinkthere's credence to both.
The data is informative.
It shows you where you might begetting slowed down at a
(03:57):
certain level of the process.
So where I think the data makesthe most sense for sales
leadership is it's reallyguiding the areas you need to
focus on, you need to train upor you need to really hone in on
to make sure that the obstaclesare not there in the process.
You know we talk about busyactivities versus productive
(04:19):
activities, and what the datawould tell us is you know volume
is not the goal here.
We often refer to as emptycalories.
You're just doing stuff to dostuff.
It doesn't make sense.
You know, if you have anoutcome in mind, we're in the
outcomes business.
What's the next step?
You know sales is all aboutinertia and that data helps us
inform where we're gettingplugged up and where we can make
(04:41):
some action to get past it.
Emily Estey (04:43):
Yeah.
Matt Sunshine (04:45):
Yeah, empty calories is fantastic.
I love that.
Emily Estey (04:49):
Right, and that's going to bubble up right, If
you're tracking sales processand things aren't moving forward
.
We know what we're doing.
We're doing something else.
You're clearly busy but you'renot doing the right thing.
And just to Jeff's point, Ilove that.
It's like.
One of the things I love mostabout a target drive is being
able to track activity and thenassign.
You know, oh, we clearly needskill development, either as a
(05:12):
group or individually.
You know, that's one of thethings I love about, you know,
target drives in general is wecan, we can.
There's so much learning thatcomes out of it.
Jeff Clewett (05:21):
Yeah, and Matt, I've heard you say it many times
before you know you go home ona Friday and you're driving home
you go what?
How do I know I had a good week?
Matt Sunshine (05:30):
Everyone deserves to know if they had a good week
.
Jeff Clewett (05:32):
Everyone wants to know, before they go, eat all
those calories that actuallymatter.
Being a father of three, I eatmany calories.
Maybe that's why it comes tomind, but yeah, it's.
What outcomes did you achievethis week?
Not, what did you do what didyou accomplish?
Matt Sunshine (05:54):
Yeah, very few people are sitting around doing
nothing, right?
So it's like let's take thatoff the table.
Everyone's doing a lot,everyone's busy, very productive
.
But, emily, you brought uptarget drives, so let's delve
into target drives a little bitdeeper.
While target drives cancertainly be a big motivator
we've all seen target drives bethe motivator they can be
(06:16):
Sometimes, though, they can leadto focus.
They can lead people to believethat the focus is on quantity
over quality.
So how can sales leadersutilize target drives
effectively while still makingsure that they're encouraging
the really good, tried and trueselling practices?
(06:39):
Who wants it?
Go ahead, annie?
Emily Estey (06:45):
I was just thinking about.
You know, we did a target drive, a really very successful
target drive, in Denver lastyear and I think part of what we
did you know Jeff was hyperfocused on making sure that we
were talking to qualityprospects and I actually came
into the market and helped theteams identify.
(07:07):
You know, they came to me withtheir list and we were like yes,
no, yes, no, yes, yes.
You know these are the, soreally diving in.
If you're not starting, this isgoing to sound obvious, but if
you're not starting with thequality, you're not, it's just
not going to work.
And I I feel like by reallychoosing the right prospects,
that target drive went really bythe AEs choosing the right
(07:31):
prospects, that that targetdrive went really well.
It started on the right foot.
Jeff Clewett (07:36):
Yeah, I think it's from what we learned last year
and years past of doing this andthey've all been successful.
Every time we've instituted atarget drive is again it goes
back to question one right.
We're getting everyone back onone singular focus.
At this point in time, thequality of who you're talking to
.
It's almost like a confessionalright, emily, where we get them
(07:57):
in there.
We're talking and you see,about five of the targets that
were on there for three monthsjust disappear.
Yeah, suddenly it's go time.
Now you're training and you'rehoping to instill the actions
and the processes where yourteam's always acting that way
and always following the targetprocess.
But to really put thatspotlight on it, for a 12 week
period or however long, you wantto conduct target drive, it's
(08:20):
truth serum, right, and then youget out of the I'm just doing
this to look good or to check abox and it turns into the
actions and activities areactually going to make me some
money and help my clients.
Emily Estey (08:34):
That's right, and it also, I think one of the
things that it really does is ithelps highlight those parts of
the sales process where wereally can, where our AEs can
really move the needle, andthat's in the connect phase,
like, speed up that part of theprocess.
You can speed it up and you can.
You can then find out if theclient's going to engage or not
(08:54):
with you, which is great, GreatFine.
But you're like, okay, you have, you know, what we would do is
like do you think you can, you,you can close this client in 12
weeks and they'll be like well,no, like well, why not?
Because you're not speeding upthe process.
Where you can speed it up, youknow, by doing a better needs
analysis, by advising the client, you know, I don't know.
I think it just reallyhighlights the steps of the
(09:14):
process and you know Jeff's teamdoes a great job with those, so
I think they like it too.
Jeff Clewett (09:20):
Sorry, matt, I was just going to add that what
often gets lost in a targetdrive and the reason we love to
do them earlier on in the yearis the dividends that pay out
after the 12 weeks.
Because for 12 weeks, justgetting that singular focus
again early on in a year, youknow you may not have someone
convert in 12 weeks but you'redoing everything you can and
you're flipping out more peopleand you're working harder
(09:43):
towards that main singularobjective.
You know, months from nowyou're having conversations with
these target level qualityaccounts that maybe weren't
ready yet or they have all theother boxes checked.
So you're doing the work earlyto pay dividends later in the
year as well, which I love aboutthe target drive.
Matt Sunshine (10:01):
I have two things to add.
One of my favorite because Ican.
One of my favorite things iswhen, when I'm asked to be
brought in to kind of help vetwhether or not something is a
good target account or not and Ilistened to the stories of this
is such a good target accountI've actually had them
(10:24):
identified for over a year thatblah, blah, blah and I just
usually just say okay, so what'sgoing to happen?
Oh, you've tried for a year toget an appointment with no luck,
and I know you've tried what'sgoing to happen over the next
two to three weeks.
That makes you believe all of asudden, because we said target
(10:45):
drive, that you're going to getan appointment.
I think you probably did a goodjob for the last year.
I think you have been doing agood job.
So what's about to happen?
Jeff Clewett (10:57):
Well, and you know what I find funny about that is
, I think, as a kid, getting abrand new skateboard.
You don't want to ride itbecause you want to get all
scratched up right.
They find this target.
They work so hard becausethey're not easy, right it's?
not if we all did it, we'd allbe on a beach somewhere, right,
right, it would be easy.
It's not easy, but once theyget them, they're afraid they'll
(11:18):
burn them out with the touches.
They're afraid.
But then, when you actuallyhave them go, okay, it's time to
do the touches.
It's time for target drive.
Some of those come to fruitionbecause now you're following the
rest of the process.
Matt Sunshine (11:29):
Yeah.
Jeff Clewett (11:30):
Baby, guarding it from from ruining this
opportunity that works so hardto identify.
Matt Sunshine (11:35):
So I think I've been waiting for the right
moment.
Ok, one other thing, though, alittle pet peeve of mine that
I'll share sales, sales petpeeve.
That speaks to speeding up theprocess, and I think that if
everybody adopted this, it wouldspeed up the process.
Why do salespeople find itnecessary to say, well, how
(11:59):
about we get together same timenext week?
I don't understand why sametime next week is allowed.
Why not same time tomorrow?
Why, right?
I think we as salespeople have acomfort level with, okay,
today's Wednesday or today'sThursday, whatever.
(12:20):
How about next Thursday we meet?
Why not tomorrow?
Or why not?
I mean slow kills deals, speedit up.
Let's not lose contact.
I mean, you know people always,you know analogies about dating
and stuff are always sometimes,but when you first start dating
(12:41):
someone, you don't go weeks inbetween each date.
Right, you go, let's see eachother tomorrow, let's see each
other again tomorrow, and Ithink we need to.
That could speed up the salesprocess a lot, so that what
we're talking about now isactivity.
So let's stay focused onactivities for a second.
(13:01):
The right activities requireconsistent action.
What strategies can do?
You guys think and Jeff, I'llcome to you on this one what
sales.
What strategies can salesleaders use to create a culture
within their team where focusingon the right activities not
just any activities, but theright activities becomes a habit
(13:25):
, a daily habit?
Jeff Clewett (13:28):
Well, here we try to focus on, you know, the old
carrot or the stick, right.
We don't want to be in thebusiness of punitive actions or
anything like that.
We want to reinforce goodbehaviors and that's what builds
the culture and builds habits,right.
So for us, it's aboutidentifying those things that we
think move the ball the fastestand the most.
(13:48):
Things, like you identified,Matt, about the speed in which
you can get back to a client orstay in front of them, or the
amount of proposals you can getout versus the amount of calls
you're making.
There's certain actions thatreally tell the story and for us
to highlight them every week insales meetings, to have a
(14:09):
scoreboard that shows peopledoing a great job in these
certain areas.
That may not hit the dollarsyet, but they show the KPIs that
lead to dollars more so thanthe volume, the empty calorie
activities of calls and emailsand the rest of that stuff.
So really focusing in andhighlighting and rewarding the
behavior we want to see, justlike any good habits.
You want to have little, littlecheck marks along the way that
(14:32):
you feel like you're on theright path and you're being
rewarded for it.
That's important to us.
Matt Sunshine (14:37):
Emily, what are your thoughts on this?
Emily Estey (14:39):
I think you know, I think it comes in.
We're going to start some ofthis work in Denver, but I think
it comes back to, you know,really focused IFMs on the right
behaviors.
So the things that we're thethings that we're talking about
are what our people are going topay attention to, right.
I think it's that simple.
So you know, and I get I'm nottrying to Pollyanna this because
(15:04):
I know there's emergencies Iknow there's things that pop up,
but it's really the job of asales manager to be like okay,
is this, is this the?
You know?
And with Jeff, it starts withthe objective Is this going to
get us, you know, the farthest,fastest, like, is this activity
right now?
Check that box, I think isreally smart.
But I also think you know whatwe talk about is what our people
(15:25):
are going to do, and I thinkthat starts with an IFM.
But that's, you know, that's myhumble opinion.
Talking about target accounts,talking about, you know, growth
in key accounts, but yeah,that's what I would.
Matt Sunshine (15:39):
Whatever the drumbeat is of the sales manager
is, is what the is what thesales department does.
Emily Estey (15:49):
Exactly.
Matt Sunshine (15:50):
Exactly In almost every situation that that we
look at that, we see that wetalk about on this, on this
podcast.
If it's the if it's what'simportant to the sales manager,
becomes what's important to theteam.
All right, so, speaking aboutwhat's uh, speaking on the topic
of what's important to thesales manager, one of the things
(16:13):
that's important to salesmanagers is developing their
people.
So how can leaders personalizetheir approach to coaching and
giving guidance so that theyensure each team member is
focusing on the activities thatthey're best suited to their
(16:33):
strengths?
How do you do that Like in reallife, irl, as they say, in real
life.
How does that happen?
You're so hip, matt, I am.
You're so hip, matt, I am.
Jeff Clewett (16:44):
It's me.
Matt Sunshine (16:45):
Yeah exactly.
Jeff Clewett (16:46):
Well, I think a big step of that is the people
I'm talking to on this call.
I mean, css has a model withthe STA platform to understand
people's personality types,their strengths, their
weaknesses.
We've always talked about Ithink of Beth when I think about
this.
Matt is, you know the MichaelPhelps philosophy.
You're not going to teach himto run if he's a great swimmer.
(17:08):
So I think Emily and I havebeen on many calls and we talked
through it and we strategizearound that data.
So, going back to the datapoints and go well, this person
has a high sense of achievement.
So let's find a way for them tofeel the victories and feel
they're accomplishing somethingevery step of the way.
(17:29):
But maybe somebody else,they're really driven by
competition how we put them in amodel or some kind of setting
where they feel they'recompeting against their peers
and they're feeling thatmotivation.
So the individual strategies iscritical.
You know, sales is not one sizefits all.
Everyone has differentstrengths, everyone has
different weaknesses.
But really it's about leaninginto the strengths, not
(17:50):
addressing the weaknesses.
You know, if you're MichaelPhelps, we're going to go swim
or swim hard, versus telling youto go jump or run a lap or
something else.
What would you think, emily?
Emily Estey (18:00):
I was just thinking about.
We did coaching with one ofJeff's sales managers and she
has an innate sense of talentand she was motivating people
like naturally, like based on,which was super, super cool,
Really cool.
Yeah, I know it's a superpower,but I did like a few coaching
(18:25):
sessions with her and it wasjust validating what she already
was doing, which was reallypowerful for her as a manager to
know that she was kind of doingthe right things, naturally,
based on people's individualtalents.
But you know, Jeff and I talkabout this a lot Like we are
really engaged in the talentpiece and I think and so are his
(18:47):
managers Like they really wantto find out how they can
motivate the team based onconsistent talent across the
board, but really focused on howto how to manage individuals,
and I just think it makes peoplefeel really seen, you know, if,
if, if you're really, if you'rereally talking to people how
they want to be talked to.
That's broad, but I think itreally um, make sure people feel
(19:12):
like you care about them, um,and that you're motivating them
in a way that's really just easyfor them to comply Right, Just
easy for them to do.
Jeff Clewett (19:21):
I love that you brought in validation there too,
because I think that's a bigpiece of it.
You know, am I doing the rightthings?
It's not always an exercise andyou need to do it completely
differently, but if you're amanager and you're struggling
with certain people on certainthings, knowing there's a lever
there that presents itself thatyou can pull you know exactly
that that will have an impact isincredibly, uh, helpful and
(19:44):
gives you a lot of hope thatyou're heading in the right
direction.
Matt Sunshine (19:48):
I'll add a couple of things to this.
This point Number one tellingpeople what to do is not
coaching them Right.
It's telling people what to do,and sometimes and sometimes
that's necessary, but that's notcoaching.
So we should distinguishbetween two of them.
And one of the biggest and oneof the best ways to coach people
(20:09):
but often the mostunderutilized way is to
acknowledge what they're doingright, to share with them the
good stuff that they're doing.
And we see this in TFM andtalent focused management, the
workshop where we ask people togive someone feedback, and, sure
(20:31):
enough, all the feedback thatthey give is what the person's
not doing doing correct.
And there are probably thingsthat the person's not doing
correct that need to be coachedup, but the person did a lot of
things that were correct.
Also, in training ourselves tospot the good is something that
(20:53):
we can do to personalize ourapproach, especially if we know
what their natural strengths are, and now we can comment on hey,
you did a great job motivatingthat person.
They came in here feeling oneway.
They left here feeling anotherway.
Awesome job motivating thatperson.
I mean, if you know that thatperson has strength there, now
(21:17):
you just complimented or toldthem specifically what they did
or how they changed someone'sbehavior.
They're going to love that andthrive because of it.
Emily Estey (21:25):
Yeah, for sure.
I was just going to say Ialways and I, I started this
when my kids were teen, firstteenagers, and it was the see
something, say something.
If you see it, say it.
It's so easy for us to seesomething and be like that was
great and then walk away Like noactually.
I remember this so vividly.
I remember my son taking thegarbage out one day and I was
(21:48):
like I really appreciate you,Thank you so much for doing that
, and he looked at me likeyou're welcome, you know the
garbage out right and he'd takeit out.
I'm like yep, See something,say something.
I love that.
Jeff Clewett (22:07):
I think there's so many parallels right with this
job and being a parent.
I laugh with Emily a lot.
I'm like.
I think I had the sameconversation with my
six-year-old son yesterday.
It's not to say it's a matterof intelligence or anything.
We're all human beings.
We're all wired a certain way.
We tend to lean into goodfeedback and try to stay away
(22:28):
from bad feedback.
Right People don't like beingcorrected you know Right and
they feel micromanaged or theydon't feel like you appreciate
the strengths.
So I think that's an amazingpoint.
And I'm taking that one homewith me too.
So thank you, Evelyn, You'rewelcome.
Matt Sunshine (22:43):
All right, so let's wrap this up.
Final question If either of youhad to provide one piece of
advice or guidance for salesmanagers looking to better focus
their teams on the rightactivities, what would you give?
What would be your piece ofadvice, jeff?
Jeff Clewett (23:04):
I'm going to channel Steve Jobs here and say
focus means saying no to goodideas and or focus means saying
no to things.
I think oftentimes we havesquirrel type behavior in this
business.
We have emergencies, we havedistractions, but again, if you
have a singular goal in mind andit's a good one and it's
something you can measureagainst and keep yourself
(23:26):
accountable to through eitherthe data or the follow up, you
know it's all about meaningfulactions, so marrying those to
the path you're taking, to yourgoals and making sure that
you're consistent.
You got to block out thedistractions and I think
leadership plays such a strongrole in that.
To your point earlier, matt is,we're beating the drum play
(23:48):
such a strong role in that.
To your point earlier, matt iswe're we're beating the drum and
if we're ringing too many bells, you're asking your people to
do a lot of things at once,which is very difficult for
anyone to do so yeah, absolutely, emily I was just.
Emily Estey (23:58):
I would have said what we were just talking about
talk about the things thatmatter and give positive
feedback when you see execution.
Matt Sunshine (24:04):
I mean pretty simple but that's what I would.
I think, you know, I don I meanbut that's what I would.
Emily Estey (24:09):
I think you know, I don't know.
I think that's.
I think again, talking aboutwhat things that matter, talking
about the, the things that aregoing to move the.
You know to your point, jeff,faster and farther, you know,
love, love that.
I think that's a great.
Faster and farther is a good,that's a good.
Uh, you know what things aregoing to do that for us and use
every, everything that comes upin your day Does that move me
(24:31):
faster and farther, faster andfarther, love that.
Matt Sunshine (24:34):
Absolutely.
This has been such a greatconversation.
Both of you just shared so manygreat nuggets of information,
some great advice.
Anybody watching or listeningthis is going to come away from
this type of a podcast withactionable items, and for that I
say thank you.
(24:54):
But I also know that anyonelistening and watching also says
thank you, because a lot oftimes you listen to podcasts
it's theoretical stuff, and Ithink today we were really able
to get a little bit beyondtheory and get into some
practical reality.
So thank you both for that.
And I know if people want toget a hold of you.
(25:15):
You guys are both veryapproachable.
We'll put your LinkedIn contactinformation in the show notes so
that anyone listening wants toget a hold of Jeff or with Emily
.
That's how.
That's probably the very bestway to do it and for everyone
listening or watching, thank youso much for joining us and we
look forward to seeing you onthe next episode of the
(25:38):
Improving Sales PerformancePodcast.
This has been Improving SalesPerformance.
Thanks for listening.
If you like what you heard,join us every week by clicking
the subscribe button For more onthe topics covered in the show.
Visit our website,thecenterforsalesstrategycom.
There you can find helpfulresources and content aimed at
(25:59):
improving your sales performance.
You.
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