August 8, 2025 • 18 mins
In this episode, we’re talking about what really causes sales performance to decline and what leaders can do to help their reps bounce back with clarity and confidence.
Stephanie Downs, SVP/Senior Consultant at The Center for Sales Strategy, joins Matt to help break it all down. She expands on key ideas from her article in the 2025 Talent Magazine, where she shares a framework for diagnosing underperformance and reigniting momentum through strength-based leadership.
Stephanie delivers powerful takeaways, such as:
- Why, too often, feedback from sales managers is too vague
- How to distinguish between a skills gap and a motivation issue
- And, finally, why you should focus on a rep’s strengths (even when results seem to be lagging)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Sunshine (00:05):
Welcome to Improving Sales Performance, a
podcast highlighting tips andinsights aimed at helping sales
organizations realize, and maybeeven exceed, their goals.
Here we chat with thoughtleaders, experts and gurus who
have years of sales experiencefrom a wide range of industries.
I'm your host, matt Sunshine,ceo at the Center for Sales
Strategy, a sales performanceconsulting company.
(00:27):
In this episode, we're talkingabout what really causes sales
performance to decline and whatleaders can do to help their
reps bounce back with clarityand confidence.
Stephanie Downs, senior VicePresident, senior Consultant at
(00:48):
the Center for Sales Strategy,joins me to help break it all
down.
She expands on key ideas fromher article in the 2025 Talent
Magazine, where she shares aframework for diagnosing
underperformance and reignitingmomentum through strength-based
leadership.
Stephanie delivers powerfultakeaways, such as why, too
(01:12):
often, feedback from salesmanagers is too vague, how to
distinguish between a skills gapand a motivation issue and,
finally, why you should focus ona rep's strengths even when
results seem to be lagging.
All right, stephanie, let'sjump right in.
(01:36):
So, in your article which, bythe way, if anyone listening or
watching this has not taken thetime to read Stephanie's article
in the Talent Magazine, youshould.
It's excellent and we're goingto highlight parts of it in this
podcast.
So in the article you outlinefive powerful strategies for
(01:57):
addressing poor performance Inyour experience.
Which of those do managers tendto overlook or underuse the
very most Like?
Which ones don't get used?
Stephanie Downs (02:17):
Yeah, I think the effective feedback piece is
one that's extremely crucial,and I think it gets done at
moments of time, but it doesn'tget done as often as it should.
I see that when people aregiving feedback, it's either
just too general in nature, it'snot specific enough.
They try to do it, they justdon't always do it as well as
they could.
Matt Sunshine (02:34):
Yeah, I'll jump in on comment on that.
I generally speaking, thefeedback is way too vague.
Yeah, way too vague.
Either feedback on either whensomeone did something well and
you're giving them feedback onthat, or when they didn't do
something.
Um, as good as you think theycould.
Stephanie Downs (02:54):
Yeah, it's like you need to run faster and too,
and too often we forget thosemoments of positive feedback.
Right, it's easy to jump intothe what could have gone better.
Right, that people default tothat.
They default to the well, Iwish I would have seen more of
this, but we need to pepper inall of the positives before we
(03:16):
give that constructive feedback.
That part gets missed.
Matt Sunshine (03:19):
Yeah, we, we spend a lot of time talking
about habits and the importanceof habits, and getting yourself
trained and in the habit oflooking for people doing things
right is a is a big shift, butonce you get there, it's, it's
just the way you do it.
Stephanie Downs (03:36):
That's right yeah.
Matt Sunshine (03:38):
All right, yeah, exactly, that's right.
So one challenge that salesmanagers face is figuring out
whether it's a performance,whether or not the performance
issue is due to a lack of skillor lack of motivation, or set a
different way.
Is it that they don't know whatto do or they're just not doing
(03:59):
what they need to do?
Kind of that.
Knowing, doing conversation,yeah, how do you tell the
difference?
Stephanie Downs (04:05):
Yeah it.
I mean we've spent a lot oftime talking about this.
Right, it's the knowing doinggap.
I mean it's what people knowthey should be doing, they're
just not doing it and the key toit is to close that gap.
But you got to diagnose why thegaps there.
I mean you got to figure outwhat's happening.
You know, is it a trainingissue?
Is it really just there's aknowledge that's needed?
(04:27):
Do we have the rightexpectations in place?
I mean, if we set clearexpectations and really conveyed
those you know out to the teamand are we holding them
accountable and measuringagainst those, are we tolerating
non-performance?
You know, as leaders, are weallowing that to happen?
But if we don't reallyhyper-focus on closing the gap
(04:51):
between the knowing and thedoing, there's too much risk and
there's too much impact onrevenue performance and negative
impact on revenue performance.
Matt Sunshine (04:58):
I know oftentimes what you've said and I've heard
the other CSS consultants sayis that salespeople, even though
the sales manager thinksthey've set expectations, they
haven't set expectations clearlyenough.
That's right.
Right, I need you to increaseyour activity is not the same as
(05:21):
saying I expect you to havethis many appointments a?
Stephanie Downs (05:26):
day or whatever .
That's exactly right yeah.
Matt Sunshine (05:29):
When I told them they needed to increase activity
, I told them what I expect.
No, you didn't.
Stephanie Downs (05:34):
No, you didn't, or you did just once, and that
was it.
Matt Sunshine (05:36):
Yeah, yeah.
One time doesn't cut it, that'sright.
So in the article you make avery strong case for a
strength-based approach.
How can leaders focus onstrengths?
Stephanie Downs (05:55):
while still holding out, I mean, while still
holding people to beaccountable to results.
Yeah, we should have astrength-based coaching.
We should really understand thetalents of the individual, the
role they're in, you know, do wehave them in the right role for
that matter, and the right fitfor the role?
But utilizing their strengthswe can get so much more out of
them from a performancestandpoint.
Right, I mean, it's what weteach in talent-focused
(06:16):
management and I mean we preachthis.
If we focus on someone'sstrength versus a weakness, we
can get 10 times more versusjust a 10% lift of focusing on a
weakness.
If we focus on their strengths,coupled with setting the right
expectations not unlike theconversation we just were having
performance should follow.
(06:38):
We should see performance andrevenue as a result of that, but
leaders have to own doing that.
Matt Sunshine (06:47):
Yeah, yeah, and that's hard.
Stephanie Downs (06:50):
It is hard, it's very hard yeah.
Matt Sunshine (06:53):
So and we talked about this a little bit, we both
made reference to it a littleearlier.
I want to circle back to it now.
How important is it for themanager to look inward when
performance is flipping?
I mean, how often is leadershipstyle, or this unclear
expectation, really the problem?
Stephanie Downs (07:12):
Yeah, let's use an example.
So I mean, as an organization,I mean we deal with a lot of
companies that are alwaysstruggling to onboard new client
or new salespeople.
Right, it's a constant struggleto get them onboarded and it is
not uncommon that we hearthings like well, it takes 12
(07:32):
months to be up and running.
It only takes 12 months to beup and running If you, as a
leader, allow it to take 12months to be up and running.
And I think in those casesleaders should self-reflect.
I mean, because if we say tosomebody we don't expect you to
really be generating a lot ofrevenue for our organization for
(07:54):
12 months, what's thesalesperson going to do?
I've got time to learn that Ican figure that out in a few
months, to learn that I canfigure that out in a few months.
But if you say to them in fourmonths, I want you at X amount
of revenue or this many meetings, what's going to happen?
They're going to set that manymeetings and likely, especially
if you're going, you know,managing to their strengths,
(08:15):
like we were just talking aboutwhen that's not happening,
leaders have to self-assess.
They have to look at themselvesand say what am I messaging,
what am I paying attention to,or what am I not paying
attention to?
We allow it to happen sometimes.
Matt Sunshine (08:38):
Former manager of a business that we used to work
with, that I used to workclosely with, and he would call
me from time to time and sharewith me that there was
non-performance happening.
And as he would be telling meabout the non-performance, he'd
stop, he'd go.
I know, I know, I know whatyou're going to say.
He was going to tell me thiswas my fault, that I didn't, and
(09:01):
I was like, oh, I was glad Icould be helpful for you.
Thanks for calling.
Anything else I can do whilewe're on the call.
It's true, let's talk aboutnon-performance for a second.
So give us your take on the PIP, the Performance Improvement
Plan.
Are they effective?
(09:22):
Could they be effective if theywere done right?
Do they sometimes do more harmthan good?
Talk to us about the PIP.
Stephanie Downs (09:30):
Yeah, okay, so let's just take off the table.
We're not saying don't doperformance improvement plans
because they're going to bethere.
Sometimes it's just part of theprocess and we have no choice
going to be there.
Sometimes it's just part of theprocess and we have no choice.
However, they're done at thewrong time, in my opinion.
I think because, typicallyspeaking, when they are executed
(09:52):
, we're a year intonon-performance or six months
into non-performance, or we dothat as a last result, right,
we're to the point of goingyou've got 30 days or 60 days
and you're out of theorganization.
That should be happening waysooner in the process.
So, even going back to theonboarding example with new
hires, say, we have anexpectation with salespeople
(10:15):
that they have to meet two newbusiness appointments a week.
Whatever the number is, two newbusiness appointments a week.
One week does not make apattern, right, they miss it one
week, you may not.
Is two new businessappointments a week.
One week does not make apattern, right, they miss it one
week, you may not go.
Oh, panic mode.
If they miss it two weeks, weshould be having a conversation
after two weeks.
If they miss it three weeks, weshould be having a conversation
(10:35):
.
So those performanceimprovement plans whether it's a
formalized plan or if it's justthat coaching or maybe there's
another step in the process saysthey should be happening way
sooner in the process.
We should be having theconversation earlier.
You're not meeting theexpectation, etc.
Matt Sunshine (10:57):
I love that.
Here's an idea.
So I think years ago someone atCSS it was either Steve Marks
or Jim Hopes wrote an articleabout the performance
improvement plan.
Is really just the death dance,right, it's the necessary thing
(11:18):
that you do when you'reeventually going to let somebody
go, necessary thing that you dowhen you're eventually going to
let somebody go and I think,whether or not, whether or not
that's true, I do think that isthe feeling many people get when
they are put on a PIP that Ibetter start interviewing for a
job because I've been put on thePIP, I'm on my way out.
So what if I think the wordimprovement is what really makes
(11:45):
this a negative document?
What if it was just aperformance plan or a success
plan?
And what if you did it foreverybody every quarter, like
even if they were hitting homeruns, like just like at the
beginning of every quarter, youdo your review preview, and part
of the review preview is yousay let's build your success
(12:07):
plan, the things that you needto do, your performance plan,
things that you need to do andthat you want me to hold you
accountable for over the next 90days.
Stephanie Downs (12:16):
But that should be a two-way street, right.
I love the idea ofincorporating it with the review
preview process.
That's the perfect time to doit, because the salesperson is
coming to that meeting withtheir business plan, their
action plan.
That should be a two wayconversation, what they want.
Matt Sunshine (12:33):
That's right.
Stephanie Downs (12:34):
What do we need to see?
Yeah, I like that.
Matt Sunshine (12:36):
It's really about driving performance.
We should all kind of be leanedinto this about driving
performance.
We should all kind of be leanedinto this.
And it shouldn't be.
It should actually be arecruitment tool.
That you say to someone whenyou're hiring them is four times
a year we stop down and webuild a performance plan or a
success plan to make sure thatyou're going to be on track.
Stephanie Downs (12:55):
Yeah, Cause the formal PIP process.
It's very punitive.
Matt Sunshine (12:59):
It's punitive.
You're only people that canpull up.
Stephanie Downs (13:01):
You're not putting people up.
Matt Sunshine (13:05):
Wait, you tell me that this performance
improvement plan is to behelpful for me, but the only
people that get one of thesepips are people that are not
hitting budget, are not meetingexpectations.
Stephanie Downs (13:15):
It's in the road.
Matt Sunshine (13:18):
And then they all leave the organization 90 days
later, I mean or?
Stephanie Downs (13:22):
less.
Matt Sunshine (13:23):
Or less.
That's right.
All right, let's talk aboutcoaching.
How should a manager approachcoaching someone who's
underperforming, but theyclearly have a ton of potential?
Stephanie Downs (13:39):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
First thing I would saydiagnose the problem, like
what's really the issue that'shappening?
Why are they not?
Are there roadblocks in theirway?
Is there something in the salesprocess that they should be
doing a better job?
Figure it out, because therecould be countless different
things that could be going on.
And then I would just say, pickone or two areas, because I
(14:00):
mean there may be multiplethings happening.
You can't focus on everything.
Pick the one or two things thatyou go.
You know what, if I help themget mastery in these two things,
it's going to drive revenueperformance.
The other things that I wouldsay with that is if we really
think that they have potential,I would be on all calls with
them.
(14:20):
Initially, I would be in thefield with them for every single
call.
I would not let them leave aproposal, leave the building for
a target or key account withoutreviewing it or being part of
the process, and I wouldpractice, practice, practice
with them various stages of thesales process to help them get
better.
Because if they have potential,then recruiting's hard,
(14:42):
replacing people's hard, it'sexpensive.
We should be all hands on deckof trying to save them.
Matt Sunshine (14:50):
Yeah, we banter this phrase around a lot.
Success leaves clues, but youcan absolutely tell the
organization, the best salesorganizations, the ones that
consistently get good results.
Sales managers are going out onsales calls with salespeople.
Sales proposals are beingreviewed before they go out to
(15:11):
work.
That's right.
Practice is happening, yeah.
Stephanie Downs (15:14):
There's consistency in their IFMs, their
one-on-ones.
Each week they have formalizedagendas for those.
Matt Sunshine (15:21):
Right.
So if you're doing all thosethings, and that's what?
If you're not doing thosethings, well then you should
start doing those things.
You should, All right.
Last question for you Ifsomeone watching this or someone
listening to this has a someoneon their team who is under
delivering, underperformingright now, what's one
(15:45):
conversation they should havethis week to move things in the
right direction?
Stephanie Downs (15:50):
Yep, I would lead with empathy, but I would
have a very structuredconversation with them, with
specifics.
Here's what I'm seeing.
Here's what I'm not seeing.
I think it needs to be a reallydetailed conversation and it
needs to be led with data.
They need to use data to drivethat conversation.
(16:10):
I would also ask the individualfor their own feedback too.
I would ask them for aself-assessment of what they
think's going on and what'shappening with that.
I would reset expectations.
I would make it very clearwhat's expected of them and then
also provide support along theway.
How can the leader supportthese steps in the process to
(16:31):
help this individual move in theright direction?
Matt Sunshine (16:34):
Yeah, I think that's spot on.
We both have several examplesthat we could share of people
who are not performing, but theydidn't realize they were not
performing.
Stephanie Downs (16:42):
They didn't know it, that's right.
Matt Sunshine (16:44):
Yeah, and as a leader, you owe it to them to
share with them.
Hey, you're not currentlymeeting expectations.
Let's talk about it.
Let's get you going in theright direction right now.
Stephanie Downs (16:54):
Yeah, exactly.
Matt Sunshine (16:55):
All right, stephanie, if people have not
read this article, theyabsolutely should read this
article.
It's fantastic.
Thank you for writing it.
Thank you for contributing inthat way.
I know that.
I want to thank you for beingon the show, as always, you've
been a guest of the show a lotand we appreciate it, and if
people want to get a hold of you, I will put your contact
(17:15):
information in the show notes,but the easiest and best way to
get a hold of you obviously isthrough LinkedIn.
I know that you're highlyresponsive when people reach out
and for those of you thatlistened today, thank you very
much and we look forward toseeing you on the next episode
of Improving Sales Performance.
And we look forward to seeingyou on the next episode
(17:54):
ofalesstrategycom.
There, you can find helpfulresources and content aimed at
improving your sales performance.
Welcome to Improving Sales Performance, a
podcast highlighting tips andinsights aimed at helping sales
organizations realize, and maybeeven exceed, their goals.
Here we chat with thoughtleaders, experts and gurus who
have years of sales experiencefrom a wide range of industries.
I'm your host, matt Sunshine,ceo at the Center for Sales
Strategy, a sales performanceconsulting company.
(00:27):
In this episode, we're talkingabout what really causes sales
performance to decline and whatleaders can do to help their
reps bounce back with clarityand confidence.
Stephanie Downs, senior VicePresident, senior Consultant at
(00:48):
the Center for Sales Strategy,joins me to help break it all
down.
She expands on key ideas fromher article in the 2025 Talent
Magazine, where she shares aframework for diagnosing
underperformance and reignitingmomentum through strength-based
leadership.
Stephanie delivers powerfultakeaways, such as why, too
(01:12):
often, feedback from salesmanagers is too vague, how to
distinguish between a skills gapand a motivation issue and,
finally, why you should focus ona rep's strengths even when
results seem to be lagging.
All right, stephanie, let'sjump right in.
(01:36):
So, in your article which, bythe way, if anyone listening or
watching this has not taken thetime to read Stephanie's article
in the Talent Magazine, youshould.
It's excellent and we're goingto highlight parts of it in this
podcast.
So in the article you outlinefive powerful strategies for
(01:57):
addressing poor performance Inyour experience.
Which of those do managers tendto overlook or underuse the
very most Like?
Which ones don't get used?
Stephanie Downs (02:17):
Yeah, I think the effective feedback piece is
one that's extremely crucial,and I think it gets done at
moments of time, but it doesn'tget done as often as it should.
I see that when people aregiving feedback, it's either
just too general in nature, it'snot specific enough.
They try to do it, they justdon't always do it as well as
they could.
Matt Sunshine (02:34):
Yeah, I'll jump in on comment on that.
I generally speaking, thefeedback is way too vague.
Yeah, way too vague.
Either feedback on either whensomeone did something well and
you're giving them feedback onthat, or when they didn't do
something.
Um, as good as you think theycould.
Stephanie Downs (02:54):
Yeah, it's like you need to run faster and too,
and too often we forget thosemoments of positive feedback.
Right, it's easy to jump intothe what could have gone better.
Right, that people default tothat.
They default to the well, Iwish I would have seen more of
this, but we need to pepper inall of the positives before we
(03:16):
give that constructive feedback.
That part gets missed.
Matt Sunshine (03:19):
Yeah, we, we spend a lot of time talking
about habits and the importanceof habits, and getting yourself
trained and in the habit oflooking for people doing things
right is a is a big shift, butonce you get there, it's, it's
just the way you do it.
Stephanie Downs (03:36):
That's right yeah.
Matt Sunshine (03:38):
All right, yeah, exactly, that's right.
So one challenge that salesmanagers face is figuring out
whether it's a performance,whether or not the performance
issue is due to a lack of skillor lack of motivation, or set a
different way.
Is it that they don't know whatto do or they're just not doing
(03:59):
what they need to do?
Kind of that.
Knowing, doing conversation,yeah, how do you tell the
difference?
Stephanie Downs (04:05):
Yeah it.
I mean we've spent a lot oftime talking about this.
Right, it's the knowing doinggap.
I mean it's what people knowthey should be doing, they're
just not doing it and the key toit is to close that gap.
But you got to diagnose why thegaps there.
I mean you got to figure outwhat's happening.
You know, is it a trainingissue?
Is it really just there's aknowledge that's needed?
(04:27):
Do we have the rightexpectations in place?
I mean, if we set clearexpectations and really conveyed
those you know out to the teamand are we holding them
accountable and measuringagainst those, are we tolerating
non-performance?
You know, as leaders, are weallowing that to happen?
But if we don't reallyhyper-focus on closing the gap
(04:51):
between the knowing and thedoing, there's too much risk and
there's too much impact onrevenue performance and negative
impact on revenue performance.
Matt Sunshine (04:58):
I know oftentimes what you've said and I've heard
the other CSS consultants sayis that salespeople, even though
the sales manager thinksthey've set expectations, they
haven't set expectations clearlyenough.
That's right.
Right, I need you to increaseyour activity is not the same as
(05:21):
saying I expect you to havethis many appointments a?
Stephanie Downs (05:26):
day or whatever .
That's exactly right yeah.
Matt Sunshine (05:29):
When I told them they needed to increase activity
, I told them what I expect.
No, you didn't.
Stephanie Downs (05:34):
No, you didn't, or you did just once, and that
was it.
Matt Sunshine (05:36):
Yeah, yeah.
One time doesn't cut it, that'sright.
So in the article you make avery strong case for a
strength-based approach.
How can leaders focus onstrengths?
Stephanie Downs (05:55):
while still holding out, I mean, while still
holding people to beaccountable to results.
Yeah, we should have astrength-based coaching.
We should really understand thetalents of the individual, the
role they're in, you know, do wehave them in the right role for
that matter, and the right fitfor the role?
But utilizing their strengthswe can get so much more out of
them from a performancestandpoint.
Right, I mean, it's what weteach in talent-focused
(06:16):
management and I mean we preachthis.
If we focus on someone'sstrength versus a weakness, we
can get 10 times more versusjust a 10% lift of focusing on a
weakness.
If we focus on their strengths,coupled with setting the right
expectations not unlike theconversation we just were having
performance should follow.
(06:38):
We should see performance andrevenue as a result of that, but
leaders have to own doing that.
Matt Sunshine (06:47):
Yeah, yeah, and that's hard.
Stephanie Downs (06:50):
It is hard, it's very hard yeah.
Matt Sunshine (06:53):
So and we talked about this a little bit, we both
made reference to it a littleearlier.
I want to circle back to it now.
How important is it for themanager to look inward when
performance is flipping?
I mean, how often is leadershipstyle, or this unclear
expectation, really the problem?
Stephanie Downs (07:12):
Yeah, let's use an example.
So I mean, as an organization,I mean we deal with a lot of
companies that are alwaysstruggling to onboard new client
or new salespeople.
Right, it's a constant struggleto get them onboarded and it is
not uncommon that we hearthings like well, it takes 12
(07:32):
months to be up and running.
It only takes 12 months to beup and running If you, as a
leader, allow it to take 12months to be up and running.
And I think in those casesleaders should self-reflect.
I mean, because if we say tosomebody we don't expect you to
really be generating a lot ofrevenue for our organization for
(07:54):
12 months, what's thesalesperson going to do?
I've got time to learn that Ican figure that out in a few
months, to learn that I canfigure that out in a few months.
But if you say to them in fourmonths, I want you at X amount
of revenue or this many meetings, what's going to happen?
They're going to set that manymeetings and likely, especially
if you're going, you know,managing to their strengths,
(08:15):
like we were just talking aboutwhen that's not happening,
leaders have to self-assess.
They have to look at themselvesand say what am I messaging,
what am I paying attention to,or what am I not paying
attention to?
We allow it to happen sometimes.
Matt Sunshine (08:38):
Former manager of a business that we used to work
with, that I used to workclosely with, and he would call
me from time to time and sharewith me that there was
non-performance happening.
And as he would be telling meabout the non-performance, he'd
stop, he'd go.
I know, I know, I know whatyou're going to say.
He was going to tell me thiswas my fault, that I didn't, and
(09:01):
I was like, oh, I was glad Icould be helpful for you.
Thanks for calling.
Anything else I can do whilewe're on the call.
It's true, let's talk aboutnon-performance for a second.
So give us your take on the PIP, the Performance Improvement
Plan.
Are they effective?
(09:22):
Could they be effective if theywere done right?
Do they sometimes do more harmthan good?
Talk to us about the PIP.
Stephanie Downs (09:30):
Yeah, okay, so let's just take off the table.
We're not saying don't doperformance improvement plans
because they're going to bethere.
Sometimes it's just part of theprocess and we have no choice
going to be there.
Sometimes it's just part of theprocess and we have no choice.
However, they're done at thewrong time, in my opinion.
I think because, typicallyspeaking, when they are executed
(09:52):
, we're a year intonon-performance or six months
into non-performance, or we dothat as a last result, right,
we're to the point of goingyou've got 30 days or 60 days
and you're out of theorganization.
That should be happening waysooner in the process.
So, even going back to theonboarding example with new
hires, say, we have anexpectation with salespeople
(10:15):
that they have to meet two newbusiness appointments a week.
Whatever the number is, two newbusiness appointments a week.
One week does not make apattern, right, they miss it one
week, you may not.
Is two new businessappointments a week.
One week does not make apattern, right, they miss it one
week, you may not go.
Oh, panic mode.
If they miss it two weeks, weshould be having a conversation
after two weeks.
If they miss it three weeks, weshould be having a conversation
(10:35):
.
So those performanceimprovement plans whether it's a
formalized plan or if it's justthat coaching or maybe there's
another step in the process saysthey should be happening way
sooner in the process.
We should be having theconversation earlier.
You're not meeting theexpectation, etc.
Matt Sunshine (10:57):
I love that.
Here's an idea.
So I think years ago someone atCSS it was either Steve Marks
or Jim Hopes wrote an articleabout the performance
improvement plan.
Is really just the death dance,right, it's the necessary thing
(11:18):
that you do when you'reeventually going to let somebody
go, necessary thing that you dowhen you're eventually going to
let somebody go and I think,whether or not, whether or not
that's true, I do think that isthe feeling many people get when
they are put on a PIP that Ibetter start interviewing for a
job because I've been put on thePIP, I'm on my way out.
So what if I think the wordimprovement is what really makes
(11:45):
this a negative document?
What if it was just aperformance plan or a success
plan?
And what if you did it foreverybody every quarter, like
even if they were hitting homeruns, like just like at the
beginning of every quarter, youdo your review preview, and part
of the review preview is yousay let's build your success
(12:07):
plan, the things that you needto do, your performance plan,
things that you need to do andthat you want me to hold you
accountable for over the next 90days.
Stephanie Downs (12:16):
But that should be a two-way street, right.
I love the idea ofincorporating it with the review
preview process.
That's the perfect time to doit, because the salesperson is
coming to that meeting withtheir business plan, their
action plan.
That should be a two wayconversation, what they want.
Matt Sunshine (12:33):
That's right.
Stephanie Downs (12:34):
What do we need to see?
Yeah, I like that.
Matt Sunshine (12:36):
It's really about driving performance.
We should all kind of be leanedinto this about driving
performance.
We should all kind of be leanedinto this.
And it shouldn't be.
It should actually be arecruitment tool.
That you say to someone whenyou're hiring them is four times
a year we stop down and webuild a performance plan or a
success plan to make sure thatyou're going to be on track.
Stephanie Downs (12:55):
Yeah, Cause the formal PIP process.
It's very punitive.
Matt Sunshine (12:59):
It's punitive.
You're only people that canpull up.
Stephanie Downs (13:01):
You're not putting people up.
Matt Sunshine (13:05):
Wait, you tell me that this performance
improvement plan is to behelpful for me, but the only
people that get one of thesepips are people that are not
hitting budget, are not meetingexpectations.
Stephanie Downs (13:15):
It's in the road.
Matt Sunshine (13:18):
And then they all leave the organization 90 days
later, I mean or?
Stephanie Downs (13:22):
less.
Matt Sunshine (13:23):
Or less.
That's right.
All right, let's talk aboutcoaching.
How should a manager approachcoaching someone who's
underperforming, but theyclearly have a ton of potential?
Stephanie Downs (13:39):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
First thing I would saydiagnose the problem, like
what's really the issue that'shappening?
Why are they not?
Are there roadblocks in theirway?
Is there something in the salesprocess that they should be
doing a better job?
Figure it out, because therecould be countless different
things that could be going on.
And then I would just say, pickone or two areas, because I
(14:00):
mean there may be multiplethings happening.
You can't focus on everything.
Pick the one or two things thatyou go.
You know what, if I help themget mastery in these two things,
it's going to drive revenueperformance.
The other things that I wouldsay with that is if we really
think that they have potential,I would be on all calls with
them.
(14:20):
Initially, I would be in thefield with them for every single
call.
I would not let them leave aproposal, leave the building for
a target or key account withoutreviewing it or being part of
the process, and I wouldpractice, practice, practice
with them various stages of thesales process to help them get
better.
Because if they have potential,then recruiting's hard,
(14:42):
replacing people's hard, it'sexpensive.
We should be all hands on deckof trying to save them.
Matt Sunshine (14:50):
Yeah, we banter this phrase around a lot.
Success leaves clues, but youcan absolutely tell the
organization, the best salesorganizations, the ones that
consistently get good results.
Sales managers are going out onsales calls with salespeople.
Sales proposals are beingreviewed before they go out to
(15:11):
work.
That's right.
Practice is happening, yeah.
Stephanie Downs (15:14):
There's consistency in their IFMs, their
one-on-ones.
Each week they have formalizedagendas for those.
Matt Sunshine (15:21):
Right.
So if you're doing all thosethings, and that's what?
If you're not doing thosethings, well then you should
start doing those things.
You should, All right.
Last question for you Ifsomeone watching this or someone
listening to this has a someoneon their team who is under
delivering, underperformingright now, what's one
(15:45):
conversation they should havethis week to move things in the
right direction?
Stephanie Downs (15:50):
Yep, I would lead with empathy, but I would
have a very structuredconversation with them, with
specifics.
Here's what I'm seeing.
Here's what I'm not seeing.
I think it needs to be a reallydetailed conversation and it
needs to be led with data.
They need to use data to drivethat conversation.
(16:10):
I would also ask the individualfor their own feedback too.
I would ask them for aself-assessment of what they
think's going on and what'shappening with that.
I would reset expectations.
I would make it very clearwhat's expected of them and then
also provide support along theway.
How can the leader supportthese steps in the process to
(16:31):
help this individual move in theright direction?
Matt Sunshine (16:34):
Yeah, I think that's spot on.
We both have several examplesthat we could share of people
who are not performing, but theydidn't realize they were not
performing.
Stephanie Downs (16:42):
They didn't know it, that's right.
Matt Sunshine (16:44):
Yeah, and as a leader, you owe it to them to
share with them.
Hey, you're not currentlymeeting expectations.
Let's talk about it.
Let's get you going in theright direction right now.
Stephanie Downs (16:54):
Yeah, exactly.
Matt Sunshine (16:55):
All right, stephanie, if people have not
read this article, theyabsolutely should read this
article.
It's fantastic.
Thank you for writing it.
Thank you for contributing inthat way.
I know that.
I want to thank you for beingon the show, as always, you've
been a guest of the show a lotand we appreciate it, and if
people want to get a hold of you, I will put your contact
(17:15):
information in the show notes,but the easiest and best way to
get a hold of you obviously isthrough LinkedIn.
I know that you're highlyresponsive when people reach out
and for those of you thatlistened today, thank you very
much and we look forward toseeing you on the next episode
of Improving Sales Performance.
And we look forward to seeingyou on the next episode
(17:54):
ofalesstrategycom.
There, you can find helpfulresources and content aimed at
improving your sales performance.
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