March 7, 2024 • 28 mins
In this episode, we’re once again consulting the latest Media Sales Report by The Center for Sales Strategy.
Today, we’re asking the question, “why are so many media sales managers lacking superstar talent?"
Joining Matt to answer that question and more, is the amazing Beth Sunshine, SVP/Talent Services here at CSS and the head of Up Your Culture a division of CSS focusing on company culture and employee engagement.
Of course, Beth provides such valuable insights, like:
- How, contrary to popular belief, it’s not poor performers but average performers that weigh an organization down.
- Why managers can’t nurture their superstar talents by “coaching from the locker room”
- And, finally, how if a seller has unrealized talent, the right mix of training and feedback can help transform them into a genuine superstar
Links:
The 5th Annual Media Sales Report
Beth Sunshine
Matt Sunshine
Up Your Culture
The Center for Sales Strategy
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Sunshine (00:15):
Welcome to Improving Sales Performance, a
podcast highlighting tips andinsights aimed at helping sales
organizations realize, and maybeeven exceed, their goals.
Here we chat with thoughtleaders, experts and gurus who
have years of sales experiencefrom a wide range of industries.
I'm your host, matt Sunshine,ceo at the Center for Sales
Strategy, a sales performanceconsulting company.
(00:37):
In this episode, we're onceagain consulting the latest
media sales report by the Centerfor Sales Strategy.
Today we're asking the questionwhy are so many media sales
managers lacking superstartalent?
Joining me to answer thatquestion and more, is the
(01:00):
amazing Beth Sunshine, svptalent services here at CSS and
the head of Up your Culturedivision of CSS that focuses on
company culture and employeeengagement.
Of course, beth provides suchvaluable insights like how,
contrary to popular belief, it'snot poor performers but average
(01:22):
performers that weigh anorganization down, why managers
can't nurture their superstartalent by coaching from the
locker room.
And, finally, how, if a sellerhas unrealized talent, the right
mixture of training andfeedback can help transform them
into a genuine superstar.
With that, let's get theconversation started, all right.
(01:51):
So in the just published mediasales report and it is the fifth
annual media sales report isn'tthat pretty cool?
Beth Sunshine (02:00):
Yeah, congratulations.
Matt Sunshine (02:02):
Yeah, in the fifth annual media sales report,
75% of sales managers don'tconsider the majority of their
teams to be superstars.
Let that sink in just for asecond 75% of sales managers do
not consider that the majorityof their salespeople are
(02:22):
superstars.
So two-part question one iswhat do you make of that?
And two, if you were leading ateam or what advice would you
give to someone leading a teamthat was seriously lacking in
superstar talent?
What would you do?
(02:43):
What should they do?
What would they start?
Beth Sunshine (02:46):
Yeah, this is a great question.
First of all, superstars salessuperstars they're not easy to
find.
I mean, the average person isjust not born and built for
sales.
So when you study those who aregreat at it, those who excel
the best of the best, you findthat they have a handful of
behaviors that they have a tonof intensity in and most people
(03:09):
just don't have those.
So even in the best of times,finding a seller who can be a
sales superstar is like findinga needle in a haystack.
So I do have to just say it'snot easy.
But, with that said, this is atough job market right now.
Recruitment is hard.
I'm hearing daily by ourclients how difficult.
(03:31):
It is harder than usual and toachieve sales excellence you
have to start with someone whohas the potential for excellence
.
You get out of it what you putinto it.
You're only going to haveexcellent outcomes if you hire
people with the potential forexcellence, so that the best
hiring managers follow a highlystructured process.
They use a validated townassessment built specifically
(03:54):
for sales, so that they do havethe advantage they need to spot
superstar potential.
I don't think managers aretrying not to hire people who
can be superstars, I just thinkthere are a lot more misses than
there are hits.
So the second part of yourquestion was what advice do I
have?
And is the advice if they havea team already who is lacking in
(04:18):
this superstar talent?
So, however you want to take it,yeah, I'd say, if one of your
listeners is looking around attheir team and they're thinking
I don't have the star talentthat I need on this team, I
would start by making sure thatit's really talent that they're
lacking and not skills, becausethere's a really big difference
(04:39):
between talent and skills and Ithink a lot of people confuse
them.
It's easy to do so.
The first thing I would do isjust spend time with their
talent assessments.
I'd make sure I'm crystal clearon their strengths and their
weaknesses so you know whatyou're actually dealing with.
Then I'd make sure I'm puttingthem, putting my people, in the
position to maximize theirstrengths and that I have work
(05:01):
rounds in place to minimizetheir weaknesses.
If a seller ended up on my teamwho just didn't have the innate
talent they need to achievesuccess, then we have a problem.
I mean, at that point in time,I'd probably help them find
another path, because I feelstrongly that it is wrong to try
(05:21):
to jam a square peg into around hole and have expectations
that they're gonna change, thatthey're gonna become a round
peg.
So that's where I'd start.
I'd make sure I know my people,I'd make sure I know how
they're wired and then I'd makesure that they have the training
and the ongoing coaching thatthey need to achieve their very
best performance.
(05:41):
Just because someone has the rawpotential that's what talent is
Superstar.
Talent is just raw potential.
Just because someone has that,it doesn't mean that they've
been trained or coached to useit most effectively.
So I'd make sure everyone on myteam knows what's expected of
them, what success looks like,and then I'd commit to giving
them great coaching, regularfeedback and finally, and
(06:05):
probably most importantly, goingback to where I started with.
Recruitment is so hard.
I commit to building a stellartalent bank, so I'm never, ever,
ever in that position again.
I would set aside time everyweek for a certain period of
time to connect with top talent.
I build relationships even whenI'm not hiring, so that I have
(06:26):
superstars sitting on the benchjust waiting to get into the
game.
I find that that raises the barfor the current team of sadly
not superstars potentially, andit also gives me, as their coach
, a sense of freedom that I canalways send people out.
Matt Sunshine (06:41):
All right, so thanks.
So let me dig a little deeperinto this, because there's
something here and I'm gonnathrow out a term that you I know
you've heard me say at talentfocus management workshops over
the years.
But so we have this thing goingon Managers feel as though
they're lacking superstar talentAt least they're saying that in
(07:03):
the media sales report.
However, if you dig a littledeeper, nearly half the managers
so 46%, so just under half saythat less than 20% of their
sales teams is underperforming.
Managers are finding themselvesin a situation where they don't
(07:27):
have superstars, but they don'thave that many underperforming.
And so what can a manager startdoing to help those adequate or
average performing salespeopleevolve into superstars?
(07:50):
And what you've heard me sayover the years is I sometimes
feel like sales departments arehandcuffed to mediocracy.
They don't have the top, butthey're not.
They're good.
Yeah, it's a lot easier to gofrom bad to great than from good
to great.
Beth Sunshine (08:08):
Yeah, yeah, it's a great way to say it.
I mean, you said the wordaverage, which just sort of
gives me cringey feelings,because the average performer is
the one that can bring down anorganization.
You've probably heard this termbefore, I'm sure you have.
Good is the enemy of great, andit's true, it's really easy to
(08:29):
spot a poor performer.
We're all pretty good, nomatter what position we're
hiring for, we're pretty good atspotting a poor performer, and
that allows us to either nothire them or, if we spot that
too late, at least not keep themfor long.
It's the average performers,it's those who fly under the
radar, that really hurt theorganization.
(08:52):
Sometimes, during leadershipdevelopment sessions, I'll ask
managers in the room to gradetheir sellers and to tell me how
many A players, b players, cplayers and so on that they have
on their teams.
And I find it reallyfascinating, because the same
thing happens really everywhere.
They typically and I'm curiousif you've had the same
experience they typically havesome of each with the fewest
(09:15):
numbers considered A players,not a ton of those, and probably
the most of them B or C players, and when I ask them why, it
leads to a great discussion.
So that's really theconversation opener for me, but
my question to them after wediscuss it is why can't they all
be A players?
Why can't you do the duediligence necessary to hire
(09:37):
people with the raw potentialfor excellence and then train
and coach them to achieve toplevel talent?
And you and I know I think youwould agree the answer is you
can.
You can do that.
It's just a full time job.
It's a full time job.
So the answer your questionabout what managers can do to
(09:58):
help those average performersevolve into superstars I'd say,
first and foremost, they have tomake sure that they have the
potential to be superstars inthe first place.
If they do have that potentialfor excellence, they should
invest in them.
I mean that investment iseverything.
From the very beginning, though,they need to spend time making
(10:19):
sure that that person's clear onwhat their strengths are.
Make sure that they know how touse their strengths.
We give our clients a toolcalled the top talent report.
It's a great conversationstarter If you give your new
employee this top talent report,or even an existing employee
this top talent report.
Have them read through theirstrengths and all of the
recommended strategies they canuse to maximize their strengths.
(10:43):
Have a conversation about that.
Provide them with strategieslike really dig into those
talents that would be number oneand then Provide top-notch
training.
Obviously they they need tohave the knowledge and the
skills necessary for success.
Sales is hard it's so hard to bea great salesperson so you need
(11:04):
to, as a manager, make it yourfull-time job to Arm them,
support them, give them clearexpectations so that they know
what they're shooting for,recognize their good work often.
Also, I could preach about thisall day, but you want to spend
time in the field so you can betheir eyes and ears and, just
(11:25):
like a football coach gotfootball in the brain now for
obvious reasons, just like afootball coach can't coach from
the locker room, sales managerhas to see their players in
action.
They have to see their sellerson the field to be able to point
out what they're doing Right,to be able to help them do it
better and better and betterevery time.
So I would recommend that, andyou know.
(11:47):
Another thing managers can dois schedule regular One-on-one
meetings to discuss the sellers,target accounts, next steps and
obstacles.
All of that, to me, equalsinvestment.
So you have to make sure youhave the right talents and then,
if you do, it's all in yourinvestment to bring them to that
level of top performer.
Matt Sunshine (12:10):
Yeah, so I want to go.
I want to go a little deeper insome things that you were
saying.
You know, a component of thislack of superstars Could be
Regular feedback, or or not.
That's kind of what you weretouching on a little bit.
So here's some data 55%Managers feel as though they
(12:33):
don't spend enough time eachweek coaching members of their
sales team.
44% of sales people say theydon't receive feedback on their
talents and on a regular basis.
So how can?
Oh, and you brought up, so I'llcome back to.
I'll come to the question in asecond.
I want to divert for a second.
You brought up football.
Beth Sunshine (12:58):
I'll go a little deeper on football.
Matt Sunshine (13:00):
What's ordered?
I open now this will exchange,you and I were having you me,
and some other people werehaving earlier today on the
impact of coaching, that theinvestment.
Yeah.
So Nick Saban just retiredwhether you're a fan of Alabama
or not doesn't matter Greatestgreatest college coach ever, or
(13:26):
if you don't believe that he'scertainly in the top two or
three yeah, of all time for sure.
But is it just Alabama?
So I did some research andBefore he got his first coaching
gig I think was Toledo.
Before he got to Toledo, theywere 26 and 28.
In the five years before he gotthere they were average 26 and
(13:47):
28.
He got there, they went nineand two.
I Then he went to MichiganState.
In the five years before he gotto Michigan State, they were 27
and 29.
They lost more than they won.
After he went there he wasthere they were 34 and 24.
So then he goes to LSU.
(14:08):
Before he got there they were30 and 23.
30 wins, 23 losses.
After he goes there they go 48and 16.
Yeah, then he goes to Alabama.
They were 36 and 27,.
Just slightly better than 500.
The five years before he gotthere and obviously he went on.
(14:30):
He went 206 and 29 over histenure there.
So coaching does make adifference.
I mean, all those schools hadsome variation of talented
athletes on their team andcertainly the teams with the
most talent are gonna win outover the team.
But it needs coaching, it needsinvestment.
Beth Sunshine (14:54):
Absolutely right.
I love the way you think aboutthat.
And, looking at a team likeAlabama Nick Saban, the magic is
sort of cyclical.
It starts well I don't know,it's a chicken or a egg kind of
thing but it starts by buildinga great program.
When you have a great program,you attract great talent, so
recruiting becomes easier andeasier.
(15:14):
So he created something thathe's attracting five-star
athletes to and they'reperforming at a higher level.
It's exactly the way businesscan work.
Matt Sunshine (15:27):
All right.
So now back to that question of.
Managers feel as though theydon't spend enough time in the
field, and sales people don'tfeel as though they get regular
feedback.
What can a manager do toimprove this?
What are some actionable thingsthat they can do to ensure that
feedback happens on a regularbasis?
What do you recommend?
Beth Sunshine (15:46):
Well, first I'd say that you have to make this a
priority, and I mean thatsounds like such a no-brainer,
but it's true.
As a manager, you're rarelygonna find yourself with nothing
to do and just happen todiscover that it's a great time
to coach your seller that thosemoments rarely happen
organically.
(16:07):
It's something that typicallyhas to be planned, it has to be
on your calendar for it toregularly happen.
So I would start by puttingthose things on your calendar
and then also, just to kind ofrecap what I said a moment ago,
for coaching and feedback towork, the seller has to have
really clear expectations.
You need they need to know fromyou what success looks like,
(16:31):
what you're looking for exactly,so they can target that.
And then they need tounderstand, too, how they're
wired.
So their strengths aredifferent than those of their
manager, they're different thanthose of their coworkers, so
it's really important for anyindividual contributor to know
what their strengths are andhave them top of mind so that
(16:53):
they're able to maximize theirstrengths.
So you asked about feedback.
You have to have all that inplace first, and then, once you
have those things in place,you're primed to give feedback.
You asked for some tips.
A few of my favorite tips.
Number one don't wait for aspecific outcome to happen
before you give feedback.
(17:14):
I often think about because youand I, we know we have babies
around us.
Quite often these days, youdon't wait for a baby to
successfully walk across thefloor to tell them that they did
a good job or to tell them whatyou liked that they did.
Instead, you notice everylittle action that leads to them
(17:35):
walking across the floor.
You notice the first time theyget up on their knees, the first
time they crawl, and thatfeedback some recognition, but
also just the feedback, thecaring, play such a huge role.
That extends to salesmanagement.
If you just wait until theymake the sale, you've missed the
(17:56):
opportunity.
Giving feedback on dailyactivity along the way allows
them to make adjustments andimprove their performance.
That's key Also.
I'll give you three tips.
The second tip is be asspecific as possible.
Great presentation or great job, great proposal those things
are never going to grow anyone.
(18:17):
They're never going to leavethem feeling like purposeful.
Instead, you want to tell themwhat you liked.
What about?
Their presentation was sostrong?
What about that proposal?
Should they replicate again?
When you tell someone whatthey're doing right, they're
able to repeat those positivebehaviors and get better and
better and better.
(18:37):
Then third one I'll give you.
Just remember that feedback isbest when, over time, it's given
at a pretty high ratio.
We say five to one, positive tonegative, constructive
criticism or any feedback thatdoesn't feel great.
That has to happen.
That's necessary for growth,but it lands much better and it
(19:00):
leads to bigger improvements.
If you're really heavy-handedwith the positive feedback, if
at a five to one ratio, justover time, you're noticing what
they're doing right, you'regoing to have a bigger effect
when you need to point to whatthey need to do differently next
time.
Matt Sunshine (19:15):
Yeah, I would definitely say that many believe
that feedback equals tell themwhat they did wrong.
Beth Sunshine (19:23):
Yes, almost always.
That's right.
It's almost the opposite.
Matt Sunshine (19:29):
We need to tell them what they're doing right.
Beth Sunshine (19:32):
We need to do that again and do it more Next
time you do it.
You could even do this with it.
That's it.
Matt Sunshine (19:39):
Speaking of football, there's a great
article in H and HarvardBusiness Review from a few years
ago talked about Tom Landry a.
Cowboys coach that would showthe video, would show the film
of the players doing it rightand on occasion doing it wrong,
(19:59):
but for the most part only doingit right.
When asked about that, he saidthere are lots of ways to do it
wrong.
Why would I show video on that?
There's only one way to do itright.
I just want them to focus onthat.
I thought that's so greatbecause it's so true.
Beth Sunshine (20:14):
It was so cool and it was so different.
That was such a differentmindset, just a different
paradigm and an effective oneLast set of questions.
Matt Sunshine (20:25):
Let me tee it up and then we'll walk through some
of my questions on this.
92 percent of salespeopleNearly all of them, 92 percent
believe it is important or veryimportant that they are learning
and developing in their roles.
However, only 48 percent reportthat they participate in sales
(20:48):
training on a weekly basis.
All of them are saying, nearlyall of them are saying, hey, I
need to learn and develop if I'mgoing to be successful in my
role.
Little less than half we'llcall it half are saying they
have weekly sales trainings.
So one how can a manager makesure they are providing this
(21:09):
learning and development thatsalespeople want?
Beth Sunshine (21:16):
Well, I guess, since we're talking about what
they want, I'd start by makingsure that you understand exactly
what it is that they're craving.
Learning and development isgoing to look very different
from one person to another, sobeing as individualized as
possible, I would say, is jobnumber one.
Also, you want to identify thegaps so you can fill them.
(21:38):
So learning and development,are we talking about just taking
them to the next level, or isthere something that they're
missing?
Is there something that if theyimproved that thing, they could
be so much better?
I'd have that conversation.
I would have them be a part ofthinking about what could grow
them.
Also, everyone learns reallydifferently, so you want to know
(22:04):
your people, identify how theylearn best.
Is the ideal sales trainingbringing someone in and
gathering people physicallytogether?
Is it more of an onlinelearning?
And mixing it up is never a badthing.
You can do partner sharing.
In-person training sessions domake your sales meetings
powerful.
Combine some online learning ina way that works best for your
(22:28):
people.
Matt Sunshine (22:30):
Yeah.
So this follow-up question tothis is let me tee it up for you
so do you think superstar?
Do you think people withsuperstar talent let's assume
they have superstar talent Doyou think people with superstar
talent that are not havingsuccess?
(22:51):
So they are talented butthey're not having success?
Do you think that thosesuperstar talent that wants to
have success, do you think thatthe right combination of
feedback and training could helpthem?
(23:12):
Would they develop intosuperstars?
And how long do you give thatbefore you say enough's enough,
they can't make it.
I got to make a change aroundhere.
Beth Sunshine (23:24):
That's a million dollar question, all right.
So I'll start with theassumption which is what you
said that they have the innatetalent.
So if a seller has the innatetalents to achieve superstar
level success and the answer isyes, feedback and training will
most definitely help them grow.
Interesting to bit is when wespend time focused in our areas
(23:46):
of strength, we can grow by asmuch as 10 times.
That's significant growth.
So you can think about anythingyou've ever done before.
It could be a sport you'veplayed, it doesn't matter
anything that you have reallybecome great at.
Putting your time and energyinto that thing is significant,
because if you put that sametime and energy into an area of
(24:09):
weakness, you're going to growmarginally, typically by about
10%.
So, restating your question ifthey have the innate talent, if
you provide them with thecoaching and the training and
the feedback, that investment,they should be able to grow by
10 times.
If they're not wired for thatlevel of success like I said,
most people are not wired to besales superstars then all the
(24:32):
feedback and training in theworld is not going to get them
to that level.
It's going to get them 10%better, which is not fair to
them and it's not fair to yourorganization.
But assuming that they have theright stuff, then you need to
start thinking.
Of course it takes time.
It takes a long time to learn anew organization, your products
.
There is a period of time thatyou really need to allow someone
(24:57):
to acclimate a non-board.
If they're not making it happenand I can't tell you what that
period of time is, because it'sdifferent for every organization
but if a manager reaches apoint where they're like they
should have we should be thereby now and they're not, then I
would start questioningengagement.
Then I would start thinkingabout is this culture the right
(25:21):
fit for them?
Are they engaged?
Are they showing up to workwith their sleeves rolled up,
excited to make this happen?
Because someone who is highlytalented but who's dragging
themselves into work, who's notengaged, who doesn't really care
about the company, the mission,they're not going to activate
their talents fully.
It could be if they have thetalents and they're not
(25:45):
succeeding.
My bed is on an engagement issue.
Now, as far as, how long do youwait?
Here's my thought on this.
If you have a really strongtalent bank, teaming with
superstars ready to get in thegame, it is certainly easier to
(26:06):
make that tough decision than itis if you have no other options
to turn to.
I think you need to start byrecognizing do they have the
potential to achieve what youwant them to achieve?
Have you, as a manager, theneverything you can do to train
them, to coach them, to givethem that feedback, to invest in
(26:26):
them.
Is there something getting inthe way of engagement that maybe
you need to be aware of?
Once you check all those boxes?
If you're still mystified, it'sprobably time.
I will say that when I wastrained as a talent analyst, I
had this fantastic trainer.
This was a long time ago.
She said something aboutstrengths and weaknesses and how
(26:48):
everyone had them.
I was trying to rectify this.
She said here's the thing.
Yes, we're all humans,everybody has strengths,
everybody has weaknesses.
We need to put people in roleswhere they can use their
strengths all the time, becauseobviously that's where they'll
be successful.
They need to have to use theirweaknesses as infrequently as
(27:11):
possible.
The manager this is theimportant part the manager needs
to own those weaknesses.
When you hire someone, yes,they're human, they are going to
have soft spots, but as amanager, you have to own that.
You have to say can I own thefact that this person is not
naturally gifted here.
(27:32):
They're probably going tostruggle.
I'm going to need to put somemore friends in place.
Sometimes it's a matter oflooking in the mirror.
Did I do what I needed to do asa manager?
Did I coach them the way Ineeded to coach them?
I'd hate to let someone gountil I knew the answer to that
was yes.
Matt Sunshine (27:48):
All right With that.
We're going to leave it there.
That's a great place to end.
If you want to continue theconversation with Beth, all of
her contact information will bein the show notes, but you can
always just go to LinkedIn andtype in Beth Sunshine, the
Center for Sales Strategy, andyou'll have no problem finding
(28:10):
her there.
Thank you so much for joiningus and be sure to listen to the
next podcast of the ImprovingSales Performance Podcast.
This has been Improving SalesPerformance.
Thanks for listening.
If you like what you heard,join us every week by clicking
the subscribe button.
For more on the topics coveredin the show, visit our website,
(28:32):
thecenterforsalesstrategycom,where you can find helpful
resources and content aimed atimproving your sales performance
.
Welcome to Improving Sales Performance, a
podcast highlighting tips andinsights aimed at helping sales
organizations realize, and maybeeven exceed, their goals.
Here we chat with thoughtleaders, experts and gurus who
have years of sales experiencefrom a wide range of industries.
I'm your host, matt Sunshine,ceo at the Center for Sales
Strategy, a sales performanceconsulting company.
(00:37):
In this episode, we're onceagain consulting the latest
media sales report by the Centerfor Sales Strategy.
Today we're asking the questionwhy are so many media sales
managers lacking superstartalent?
Joining me to answer thatquestion and more, is the
(01:00):
amazing Beth Sunshine, svptalent services here at CSS and
the head of Up your Culturedivision of CSS that focuses on
company culture and employeeengagement.
Of course, beth provides suchvaluable insights like how,
contrary to popular belief, it'snot poor performers but average
(01:22):
performers that weigh anorganization down, why managers
can't nurture their superstartalent by coaching from the
locker room.
And, finally, how, if a sellerhas unrealized talent, the right
mixture of training andfeedback can help transform them
into a genuine superstar.
With that, let's get theconversation started, all right.
(01:51):
So in the just published mediasales report and it is the fifth
annual media sales report isn'tthat pretty cool?
Beth Sunshine (02:00):
Yeah, congratulations.
Matt Sunshine (02:02):
Yeah, in the fifth annual media sales report,
75% of sales managers don'tconsider the majority of their
teams to be superstars.
Let that sink in just for asecond 75% of sales managers do
not consider that the majorityof their salespeople are
(02:22):
superstars.
So two-part question one iswhat do you make of that?
And two, if you were leading ateam or what advice would you
give to someone leading a teamthat was seriously lacking in
superstar talent?
What would you do?
(02:43):
What should they do?
What would they start?
Beth Sunshine (02:46):
Yeah, this is a great question.
First of all, superstars salessuperstars they're not easy to
find.
I mean, the average person isjust not born and built for
sales.
So when you study those who aregreat at it, those who excel
the best of the best, you findthat they have a handful of
behaviors that they have a tonof intensity in and most people
(03:09):
just don't have those.
So even in the best of times,finding a seller who can be a
sales superstar is like findinga needle in a haystack.
So I do have to just say it'snot easy.
But, with that said, this is atough job market right now.
Recruitment is hard.
I'm hearing daily by ourclients how difficult.
(03:31):
It is harder than usual and toachieve sales excellence you
have to start with someone whohas the potential for excellence
.
You get out of it what you putinto it.
You're only going to haveexcellent outcomes if you hire
people with the potential forexcellence, so that the best
hiring managers follow a highlystructured process.
They use a validated townassessment built specifically
(03:54):
for sales, so that they do havethe advantage they need to spot
superstar potential.
I don't think managers aretrying not to hire people who
can be superstars, I just thinkthere are a lot more misses than
there are hits.
So the second part of yourquestion was what advice do I
have?
And is the advice if they havea team already who is lacking in
(04:18):
this superstar talent?
So, however you want to take it,yeah, I'd say, if one of your
listeners is looking around attheir team and they're thinking
I don't have the star talentthat I need on this team, I
would start by making sure thatit's really talent that they're
lacking and not skills, becausethere's a really big difference
(04:39):
between talent and skills and Ithink a lot of people confuse
them.
It's easy to do so.
The first thing I would do isjust spend time with their
talent assessments.
I'd make sure I'm crystal clearon their strengths and their
weaknesses so you know whatyou're actually dealing with.
Then I'd make sure I'm puttingthem, putting my people, in the
position to maximize theirstrengths and that I have work
(05:01):
rounds in place to minimizetheir weaknesses.
If a seller ended up on my teamwho just didn't have the innate
talent they need to achievesuccess, then we have a problem.
I mean, at that point in time,I'd probably help them find
another path, because I feelstrongly that it is wrong to try
(05:21):
to jam a square peg into around hole and have expectations
that they're gonna change, thatthey're gonna become a round
peg.
So that's where I'd start.
I'd make sure I know my people,I'd make sure I know how
they're wired and then I'd makesure that they have the training
and the ongoing coaching thatthey need to achieve their very
best performance.
(05:41):
Just because someone has the rawpotential that's what talent is
Superstar.
Talent is just raw potential.
Just because someone has that,it doesn't mean that they've
been trained or coached to useit most effectively.
So I'd make sure everyone on myteam knows what's expected of
them, what success looks like,and then I'd commit to giving
them great coaching, regularfeedback and finally, and
(06:05):
probably most importantly, goingback to where I started with.
Recruitment is so hard.
I commit to building a stellartalent bank, so I'm never, ever,
ever in that position again.
I would set aside time everyweek for a certain period of
time to connect with top talent.
I build relationships even whenI'm not hiring, so that I have
(06:26):
superstars sitting on the benchjust waiting to get into the
game.
I find that that raises the barfor the current team of sadly
not superstars potentially, andit also gives me, as their coach
, a sense of freedom that I canalways send people out.
Matt Sunshine (06:41):
All right, so thanks.
So let me dig a little deeperinto this, because there's
something here and I'm gonnathrow out a term that you I know
you've heard me say at talentfocus management workshops over
the years.
But so we have this thing goingon Managers feel as though
they're lacking superstar talentAt least they're saying that in
(07:03):
the media sales report.
However, if you dig a littledeeper, nearly half the managers
so 46%, so just under half saythat less than 20% of their
sales teams is underperforming.
Managers are finding themselvesin a situation where they don't
(07:27):
have superstars, but they don'thave that many underperforming.
And so what can a manager startdoing to help those adequate or
average performing salespeopleevolve into superstars?
(07:50):
And what you've heard me sayover the years is I sometimes
feel like sales departments arehandcuffed to mediocracy.
They don't have the top, butthey're not.
They're good.
Yeah, it's a lot easier to gofrom bad to great than from good
to great.
Beth Sunshine (08:08):
Yeah, yeah, it's a great way to say it.
I mean, you said the wordaverage, which just sort of
gives me cringey feelings,because the average performer is
the one that can bring down anorganization.
You've probably heard this termbefore, I'm sure you have.
Good is the enemy of great, andit's true, it's really easy to
(08:29):
spot a poor performer.
We're all pretty good, nomatter what position we're
hiring for, we're pretty good atspotting a poor performer, and
that allows us to either nothire them or, if we spot that
too late, at least not keep themfor long.
It's the average performers,it's those who fly under the
radar, that really hurt theorganization.
(08:52):
Sometimes, during leadershipdevelopment sessions, I'll ask
managers in the room to gradetheir sellers and to tell me how
many A players, b players, cplayers and so on that they have
on their teams.
And I find it reallyfascinating, because the same
thing happens really everywhere.
They typically and I'm curiousif you've had the same
experience they typically havesome of each with the fewest
(09:15):
numbers considered A players,not a ton of those, and probably
the most of them B or C players, and when I ask them why, it
leads to a great discussion.
So that's really theconversation opener for me, but
my question to them after wediscuss it is why can't they all
be A players?
Why can't you do the duediligence necessary to hire
(09:37):
people with the raw potentialfor excellence and then train
and coach them to achieve toplevel talent?
And you and I know I think youwould agree the answer is you
can.
You can do that.
It's just a full time job.
It's a full time job.
So the answer your questionabout what managers can do to
(09:58):
help those average performersevolve into superstars I'd say,
first and foremost, they have tomake sure that they have the
potential to be superstars inthe first place.
If they do have that potentialfor excellence, they should
invest in them.
I mean that investment iseverything.
From the very beginning, though,they need to spend time making
(10:19):
sure that that person's clear onwhat their strengths are.
Make sure that they know how touse their strengths.
We give our clients a toolcalled the top talent report.
It's a great conversationstarter If you give your new
employee this top talent report,or even an existing employee
this top talent report.
Have them read through theirstrengths and all of the
recommended strategies they canuse to maximize their strengths.
(10:43):
Have a conversation about that.
Provide them with strategieslike really dig into those
talents that would be number oneand then Provide top-notch
training.
Obviously they they need tohave the knowledge and the
skills necessary for success.
Sales is hard it's so hard to bea great salesperson so you need
(11:04):
to, as a manager, make it yourfull-time job to Arm them,
support them, give them clearexpectations so that they know
what they're shooting for,recognize their good work often.
Also, I could preach about thisall day, but you want to spend
time in the field so you can betheir eyes and ears and, just
(11:25):
like a football coach gotfootball in the brain now for
obvious reasons, just like afootball coach can't coach from
the locker room, sales managerhas to see their players in
action.
They have to see their sellerson the field to be able to point
out what they're doing Right,to be able to help them do it
better and better and betterevery time.
So I would recommend that, andyou know.
(11:47):
Another thing managers can dois schedule regular One-on-one
meetings to discuss the sellers,target accounts, next steps and
obstacles.
All of that, to me, equalsinvestment.
So you have to make sure youhave the right talents and then,
if you do, it's all in yourinvestment to bring them to that
level of top performer.
Matt Sunshine (12:10):
Yeah, so I want to go.
I want to go a little deeper insome things that you were
saying.
You know, a component of thislack of superstars Could be
Regular feedback, or or not.
That's kind of what you weretouching on a little bit.
So here's some data 55%Managers feel as though they
(12:33):
don't spend enough time eachweek coaching members of their
sales team.
44% of sales people say theydon't receive feedback on their
talents and on a regular basis.
So how can?
Oh, and you brought up, so I'llcome back to.
I'll come to the question in asecond.
I want to divert for a second.
You brought up football.
Beth Sunshine (12:58):
I'll go a little deeper on football.
Matt Sunshine (13:00):
What's ordered?
I open now this will exchange,you and I were having you me,
and some other people werehaving earlier today on the
impact of coaching, that theinvestment.
Yeah.
So Nick Saban just retiredwhether you're a fan of Alabama
or not doesn't matter Greatestgreatest college coach ever, or
(13:26):
if you don't believe that he'scertainly in the top two or
three yeah, of all time for sure.
But is it just Alabama?
So I did some research andBefore he got his first coaching
gig I think was Toledo.
Before he got to Toledo, theywere 26 and 28.
In the five years before he gotthere they were average 26 and
(13:47):
28.
He got there, they went nineand two.
I Then he went to MichiganState.
In the five years before he gotto Michigan State, they were 27
and 29.
They lost more than they won.
After he went there he wasthere they were 34 and 24.
So then he goes to LSU.
(14:08):
Before he got there they were30 and 23.
30 wins, 23 losses.
After he goes there they go 48and 16.
Yeah, then he goes to Alabama.
They were 36 and 27,.
Just slightly better than 500.
The five years before he gotthere and obviously he went on.
(14:30):
He went 206 and 29 over histenure there.
So coaching does make adifference.
I mean, all those schools hadsome variation of talented
athletes on their team andcertainly the teams with the
most talent are gonna win outover the team.
But it needs coaching, it needsinvestment.
Beth Sunshine (14:54):
Absolutely right.
I love the way you think aboutthat.
And, looking at a team likeAlabama Nick Saban, the magic is
sort of cyclical.
It starts well I don't know,it's a chicken or a egg kind of
thing but it starts by buildinga great program.
When you have a great program,you attract great talent, so
recruiting becomes easier andeasier.
(15:14):
So he created something thathe's attracting five-star
athletes to and they'reperforming at a higher level.
It's exactly the way businesscan work.
Matt Sunshine (15:27):
All right.
So now back to that question of.
Managers feel as though theydon't spend enough time in the
field, and sales people don'tfeel as though they get regular
feedback.
What can a manager do toimprove this?
What are some actionable thingsthat they can do to ensure that
feedback happens on a regularbasis?
What do you recommend?
Beth Sunshine (15:46):
Well, first I'd say that you have to make this a
priority, and I mean thatsounds like such a no-brainer,
but it's true.
As a manager, you're rarelygonna find yourself with nothing
to do and just happen todiscover that it's a great time
to coach your seller that thosemoments rarely happen
organically.
(16:07):
It's something that typicallyhas to be planned, it has to be
on your calendar for it toregularly happen.
So I would start by puttingthose things on your calendar
and then also, just to kind ofrecap what I said a moment ago,
for coaching and feedback towork, the seller has to have
really clear expectations.
You need they need to know fromyou what success looks like,
(16:31):
what you're looking for exactly,so they can target that.
And then they need tounderstand, too, how they're
wired.
So their strengths aredifferent than those of their
manager, they're different thanthose of their coworkers, so
it's really important for anyindividual contributor to know
what their strengths are andhave them top of mind so that
(16:53):
they're able to maximize theirstrengths.
So you asked about feedback.
You have to have all that inplace first, and then, once you
have those things in place,you're primed to give feedback.
You asked for some tips.
A few of my favorite tips.
Number one don't wait for aspecific outcome to happen
before you give feedback.
(17:14):
I often think about because youand I, we know we have babies
around us.
Quite often these days, youdon't wait for a baby to
successfully walk across thefloor to tell them that they did
a good job or to tell them whatyou liked that they did.
Instead, you notice everylittle action that leads to them
(17:35):
walking across the floor.
You notice the first time theyget up on their knees, the first
time they crawl, and thatfeedback some recognition, but
also just the feedback, thecaring, play such a huge role.
That extends to salesmanagement.
If you just wait until theymake the sale, you've missed the
(17:56):
opportunity.
Giving feedback on dailyactivity along the way allows
them to make adjustments andimprove their performance.
That's key Also.
I'll give you three tips.
The second tip is be asspecific as possible.
Great presentation or great job, great proposal those things
are never going to grow anyone.
(18:17):
They're never going to leavethem feeling like purposeful.
Instead, you want to tell themwhat you liked.
What about?
Their presentation was sostrong?
What about that proposal?
Should they replicate again?
When you tell someone whatthey're doing right, they're
able to repeat those positivebehaviors and get better and
better and better.
(18:37):
Then third one I'll give you.
Just remember that feedback isbest when, over time, it's given
at a pretty high ratio.
We say five to one, positive tonegative, constructive
criticism or any feedback thatdoesn't feel great.
That has to happen.
That's necessary for growth,but it lands much better and it
(19:00):
leads to bigger improvements.
If you're really heavy-handedwith the positive feedback, if
at a five to one ratio, justover time, you're noticing what
they're doing right, you'regoing to have a bigger effect
when you need to point to whatthey need to do differently next
time.
Matt Sunshine (19:15):
Yeah, I would definitely say that many believe
that feedback equals tell themwhat they did wrong.
Beth Sunshine (19:23):
Yes, almost always.
That's right.
It's almost the opposite.
Matt Sunshine (19:29):
We need to tell them what they're doing right.
Beth Sunshine (19:32):
We need to do that again and do it more Next
time you do it.
You could even do this with it.
That's it.
Matt Sunshine (19:39):
Speaking of football, there's a great
article in H and HarvardBusiness Review from a few years
ago talked about Tom Landry a.
Cowboys coach that would showthe video, would show the film
of the players doing it rightand on occasion doing it wrong,
(19:59):
but for the most part only doingit right.
When asked about that, he saidthere are lots of ways to do it
wrong.
Why would I show video on that?
There's only one way to do itright.
I just want them to focus onthat.
I thought that's so greatbecause it's so true.
Beth Sunshine (20:14):
It was so cool and it was so different.
That was such a differentmindset, just a different
paradigm and an effective oneLast set of questions.
Matt Sunshine (20:25):
Let me tee it up and then we'll walk through some
of my questions on this.
92 percent of salespeopleNearly all of them, 92 percent
believe it is important or veryimportant that they are learning
and developing in their roles.
However, only 48 percent reportthat they participate in sales
(20:48):
training on a weekly basis.
All of them are saying, nearlyall of them are saying, hey, I
need to learn and develop if I'mgoing to be successful in my
role.
Little less than half we'llcall it half are saying they
have weekly sales trainings.
So one how can a manager makesure they are providing this
(21:09):
learning and development thatsalespeople want?
Beth Sunshine (21:16):
Well, I guess, since we're talking about what
they want, I'd start by makingsure that you understand exactly
what it is that they're craving.
Learning and development isgoing to look very different
from one person to another, sobeing as individualized as
possible, I would say, is jobnumber one.
Also, you want to identify thegaps so you can fill them.
(21:38):
So learning and development,are we talking about just taking
them to the next level, or isthere something that they're
missing?
Is there something that if theyimproved that thing, they could
be so much better?
I'd have that conversation.
I would have them be a part ofthinking about what could grow
them.
Also, everyone learns reallydifferently, so you want to know
(22:04):
your people, identify how theylearn best.
Is the ideal sales trainingbringing someone in and
gathering people physicallytogether?
Is it more of an onlinelearning?
And mixing it up is never a badthing.
You can do partner sharing.
In-person training sessions domake your sales meetings
powerful.
Combine some online learning ina way that works best for your
(22:28):
people.
Matt Sunshine (22:30):
Yeah.
So this follow-up question tothis is let me tee it up for you
so do you think superstar?
Do you think people withsuperstar talent let's assume
they have superstar talent Doyou think people with superstar
talent that are not havingsuccess?
(22:51):
So they are talented butthey're not having success?
Do you think that thosesuperstar talent that wants to
have success, do you think thatthe right combination of
feedback and training could helpthem?
(23:12):
Would they develop intosuperstars?
And how long do you give thatbefore you say enough's enough,
they can't make it.
I got to make a change aroundhere.
Beth Sunshine (23:24):
That's a million dollar question, all right.
So I'll start with theassumption which is what you
said that they have the innatetalent.
So if a seller has the innatetalents to achieve superstar
level success and the answer isyes, feedback and training will
most definitely help them grow.
Interesting to bit is when wespend time focused in our areas
(23:46):
of strength, we can grow by asmuch as 10 times.
That's significant growth.
So you can think about anythingyou've ever done before.
It could be a sport you'veplayed, it doesn't matter
anything that you have reallybecome great at.
Putting your time and energyinto that thing is significant,
because if you put that sametime and energy into an area of
(24:09):
weakness, you're going to growmarginally, typically by about
10%.
So, restating your question ifthey have the innate talent, if
you provide them with thecoaching and the training and
the feedback, that investment,they should be able to grow by
10 times.
If they're not wired for thatlevel of success like I said,
most people are not wired to besales superstars then all the
(24:32):
feedback and training in theworld is not going to get them
to that level.
It's going to get them 10%better, which is not fair to
them and it's not fair to yourorganization.
But assuming that they have theright stuff, then you need to
start thinking.
Of course it takes time.
It takes a long time to learn anew organization, your products
.
There is a period of time thatyou really need to allow someone
(24:57):
to acclimate a non-board.
If they're not making it happenand I can't tell you what that
period of time is, because it'sdifferent for every organization
but if a manager reaches apoint where they're like they
should have we should be thereby now and they're not, then I
would start questioningengagement.
Then I would start thinkingabout is this culture the right
(25:21):
fit for them?
Are they engaged?
Are they showing up to workwith their sleeves rolled up,
excited to make this happen?
Because someone who is highlytalented but who's dragging
themselves into work, who's notengaged, who doesn't really care
about the company, the mission,they're not going to activate
their talents fully.
It could be if they have thetalents and they're not
(25:45):
succeeding.
My bed is on an engagement issue.
Now, as far as, how long do youwait?
Here's my thought on this.
If you have a really strongtalent bank, teaming with
superstars ready to get in thegame, it is certainly easier to
(26:06):
make that tough decision than itis if you have no other options
to turn to.
I think you need to start byrecognizing do they have the
potential to achieve what youwant them to achieve?
Have you, as a manager, theneverything you can do to train
them, to coach them, to givethem that feedback, to invest in
(26:26):
them.
Is there something getting inthe way of engagement that maybe
you need to be aware of?
Once you check all those boxes?
If you're still mystified, it'sprobably time.
I will say that when I wastrained as a talent analyst, I
had this fantastic trainer.
This was a long time ago.
She said something aboutstrengths and weaknesses and how
(26:48):
everyone had them.
I was trying to rectify this.
She said here's the thing.
Yes, we're all humans,everybody has strengths,
everybody has weaknesses.
We need to put people in roleswhere they can use their
strengths all the time, becauseobviously that's where they'll
be successful.
They need to have to use theirweaknesses as infrequently as
(27:11):
possible.
The manager this is theimportant part the manager needs
to own those weaknesses.
When you hire someone, yes,they're human, they are going to
have soft spots, but as amanager, you have to own that.
You have to say can I own thefact that this person is not
naturally gifted here.
(27:32):
They're probably going tostruggle.
I'm going to need to put somemore friends in place.
Sometimes it's a matter oflooking in the mirror.
Did I do what I needed to do asa manager?
Did I coach them the way Ineeded to coach them?
I'd hate to let someone gountil I knew the answer to that
was yes.
Matt Sunshine (27:48):
All right With that.
We're going to leave it there.
That's a great place to end.
If you want to continue theconversation with Beth, all of
her contact information will bein the show notes, but you can
always just go to LinkedIn andtype in Beth Sunshine, the
Center for Sales Strategy, andyou'll have no problem finding
(28:10):
her there.
Thank you so much for joiningus and be sure to listen to the
next podcast of the ImprovingSales Performance Podcast.
This has been Improving SalesPerformance.
Thanks for listening.
If you like what you heard,join us every week by clicking
the subscribe button.
For more on the topics coveredin the show, visit our website,
(28:32):
thecenterforsalesstrategycom,where you can find helpful
resources and content aimed atimproving your sales performance
.
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