August 22, 2023 • 24 mins
If you have a website, it's important for you to understand what the Americans Disabilities Act (ADA) means for you. Delve into the world ADA compliance for websites, joined by the experts from AccessiBe, Punchmark's new ADA compliance partners.
From understanding the legal landscape to practical implementation, our conversation sheds light on the importance of web accessibility and how AccessiBe's innovative Accessibility Widget can empower businesses to create truly inclusive online experiences. Tune in to discover how ADA compliance isn't just a requirement, but a step towards a more accessible and equitable digital world.
Punchmark clients receive 20% off their subscription to AccessiBe when they sign up through the link below:
https://accessibe.com/a/punchmark
Send feedback or learn more about the podcast: punchmark.com/loupe
Learn about Punchmark's website platform: punchmark.com
Inquire about sponsoring In the Loupe and showcase your business on our next episode: podcast@punchmark.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome back everybody to In the Loop.
What is up everybody?
My name is Michael Burpo.
Thanks again for listening toIn the Loop.
This week we're talking aboutADA compliance, and, while that
might not sound like the mostexciting topic, it's something
you need to know about.
Ada stands for Americans withDisabilities Act, and what that
is is a set of rules that yourwebsite needs to comply to in
(00:24):
order to be accessible andavailable to use by people with
different types of motorfunction impairment or visual
impairments.
So just think of it as like awheelchair ramp for your website
.
If you don't have a wheelchairramp for your business, then you
aren't ADA compliant in yourphysical location, and the same
can be true for your onlineexperience, and that's why I'm
talking with Matt from Accessibi, and we're talking all about
(00:46):
the ways that your website needsto comply, as well as how they
can help with making yourwebsite accessible.
Punchmark websites are ADAcompliant out of the box, and we
want you to know that when youare updating your content, we're
not going to be there to beable to tell you hey, maybe
don't use green text on a redbackground, because people with
color blindness might not beable to read it, and that's
(01:08):
where their accessibility widgetmight be able to help, and we
want that to be available to you.
Punchmark recently partneredwith Accessibi, and Punchmark
partners and clients can receive20% off by using our referral
code, which will be in the shownotes below.
I hope you enjoyed hearing ustalk about this.
It's a very interesting topicand let us know what you think.
(01:28):
Thanks, this episode is broughtto you by Punchmark, the Julie
Industries favorite websiteplatform.
Whether you're looking forbetter e-commerce performance,
business growth or campaignsthat drive traffic and sales,
punchmark's website andmarketing services were made
(01:49):
just for you.
It's never too late totransform your business with a
user-friendly, point-of-sale,integrated website platform
designed for growth and results.
Sign up for your free demotoday at punchmarkcom.
While enjoying this week'sepisode, take a moment and leave
us a star rating on the Spotifymobile app or, if you're on
Apple Podcasts, leave us a starrating and a review.
(02:11):
It's the best way to help usgrow into show that you really
enjoy in the show.
Thanks, and now back to theshow.
Welcome back everybody.
I'm joined by Matthew, who iswith Accessibi, and we're going
to be talking all about ADAcompliance.
(02:33):
How are you doing today, matt?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
I'm doing great, Michael.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
doing, I'm doing all right.
So can you kind of set up forthe audience the concept of the
Americans with Disabilities Act?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, absolutely so.
The ADA.
It was really put in place toprohibit discrimination against
anyone based upon their abilityor disabilities.
What we're really going tofocus on today is Title III of
the ADA, because that is whatcovers public accommodations,
and you know what those are.
(03:05):
Are public accommodationsreally just a legal phrase,
including businesses,restaurants, you know, retail
stores, pretty much every placeof work, and that's sort of
what's going to be most relevantto what we're talking about
today.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah, so the way that it's been explained to me is
it's very similar to having aramp for people in wheelchairs
to be able to access yourbusiness, and in America that's
obviously very important for usto make it so that we are
available and accessible topeople of every type of
lifestyle and also ability ordisability, and having a ramp
(03:41):
it's just like that, except onthe web.
Is that kind of at all sort ofhow you explain it, or that's
kind of like a dumbed downversion?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
No, I mean, that's it .
I mean I think that is the bestsort of direct layman's term
way of describing it.
I mean the ADA.
You know, typically when we'retalking about it from a physical
standpoint, it is thatwheelchair ramp, right, it is
that handicap bathroom.
But obviously, today, so muchof business is now done online
Like this is where we go to shop, this is where we go to book
our appointments, and so, youknow, in today's world, you got
(04:09):
to have that wheelchair rampquote unquote for your website.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
There you go.
So I mean I'm going to behonest, it's not the sexiest of
topics to discuss, but it'sbecoming increasingly important
for our clients.
Nothing is worse for us as awebsite provider, and as also
for our clients who are aretailer who own a website, than
(04:32):
getting these, you know,threatening letters from these
lawyers or from on behalf of aclient that's saying like hey,
we found that your website isnot ADA compliant.
My client has, you know, wantedto use your website and we're
now suing you for this muchmoney and, you know, if you
don't pay us this much, we'regoing to take you to court.
Can you kind of give us anoverview of what the most common
(04:55):
things that people are fallingshort on when, with respect to
their quote, unquote, their,their wheelchair ramps for their
websites?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, no, I mean that's that's such an important
question, especially because,like you said, the landscape is
what the landscape is at themoment.
So I think you know.
The first thing is you knowmost people have some kind of
you know front end adjustmentsalready in place, whether it's
via free plugin or there's somecheap accessibility plugins out
there.
When I say front endadjustments, michael, I'm
(05:24):
referring to adjustments tocolors, font.
You know things on the, on theyou know the front end of the
site.
The pieces that I think mostpeople miss and that are
critical are the back endadjustments.
So these are where most peoplefall short and why.
You know, if, unfortunately,something were to happen where
they would be.
You know they were served todemand that our lawsuit
(05:46):
questioning that their theirsite's web accessibility and ADA
compliance.
Chances are they're most likelymissing the mark when it comes
to those back end adjustments.
And when I say back endadjustments, I'm focused on two
things keyboard navigationadjustments for those
individuals who are motorimpaired and screen reader
optimization those adjustmentsfor individuals who are blind,
who are using devices calledscreen readers that read aloud
(06:09):
the content on the actualwebsite for them.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah.
So, for example, I mean a lotof people don't even think of
these folks because you knowthey might not have interacted
with someone who is either motorimpaired or or blind, or, you
know, with limited site, anddon't realize that there are
these devices in tools to allowthem to, you know, live a normal
(06:32):
life.
And, yeah, it requires a littlebit of accommodation on behalf
of the website people to be ableto, you know, accommodate for
those people.
So, for example, can you talkme through how, like a screen
reader is going to work, justfor just so that people that are
listening can kind of get intheir mind?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Yeah, absolutely so.
If a blind user were to come ona website, they have that
device, the screen reader.
Jaws is typically the most, isthe most common one.
But essentially, as that blinduser is navigating through the
website, that screen reader isgoing to read aloud the content
focused on the screen for them.
So when that blind usernavigates over a link, you know
(07:09):
a button that links them to youknow one of the social pages,
maybe on that site, like toFacebookcom, let's say, that
screen will read aloud to them.
You know Facebookcom.
Now, where most people fallshort is they don't have those
alt tags in place.
They haven't done that, thatback end work to make the site
accessible.
So when that blind user goes onto that website, when they
(07:31):
navigate over that button,there's no context for them.
The screen reader is justreading a loud button, or maybe
it'll.
It'll just say Facebook, but itdoesn't say hey, new window,
facebook button, facebook comm,giving that user the context of
hey, if I click this.
This is where I'm going.
Same thing if there are imageson the site, typically there's
no all tags describing theactual.
(07:52):
You know the image itself.
So if a blind user were to comeon to your site and you have an
image there that's importantand relevant to the context of
of the website, there's nothingdescribing for that blind user
as their screen reader to readit aloud.
It might just say the screenermight just read aloud image or
PNG file, right, whereas if you,if you do the accessibility
(08:14):
work, there's gonna be an alttag there describing what the
image is and if there's any textembedded in the image, you know
what that text says as well.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yeah, I mean.
So what's interesting is that,relatively, are the internet has
been around for relatively ashort amount of time.
I mean I be.
A lot of our listeners are inthe their 40s, 50s, 60s and they
remember when the internet was.
I refer to it very lovingly asthe Wild West.
I remember when things were inflash.
(08:41):
I mean there was no rules whenit came to, for example, color
use or you know what was allowedwhen it came to flashing or
move in.
You still see it in certainwebsites where they might not
have to abide by the ADA, butthey, you know they make it very
difficult to close out pop-ups.
Yeah, or they make it, you know.
Yeah, I mean yeah, it becomes.
(09:04):
Once you start using thesewebsites or have used websites
that are not compliant or ortrying to, or maybe they're
intentionally not compliant, yourealize that it is about, like,
in America, we are trying tomake it so that everybody is
able to have a, you know, anequal or reasonable way of life
when it comes to that kind ofstuff, and that's kind of where
(09:26):
we enter with these, theseletters.
So can you kind of set up whata common?
I would hate to refer to themas a shakedown letter, right,
but for the sake of argumentalways refer to it as that.
Can you kind of set up what oneof those would say and why
they're coming out?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah, so you know.
Unfortunately, like I said, thelandscape is what the landscape
is.
Often times what will happen isa demand letter will be sent
out by a plaintiff to a business, basically saying the site is
not accessible and compliant anddemanding that remediations are
made.
Oftentimes, by the way, theseend up getting settled fairly
(10:03):
quickly, but typically, andunfortunately for you know,
sometimes even tens of thousandsof dollars them out, typically
based on the size of the thebusiness.
Unfortunately, a lot of smallto medium-sized businesses
receive these letters, and sowhere I work, access be we're
trying to make sure the site isaccessible, so that you know,
these types of things, you know,hopefully don't happen and if
(10:25):
they do, you know you do have anaccessible site at that point.
And I think too, just anotherthing to piggyback off of what
we were talking before but Ithink is relevant to this you
know, obviously no one wants toreceive a demand letter or have
a lawsuit for their site notbeing ADA compliant, and you
know that we are talking aboutdoing the right thing here.
But I think it's also worth,you know, especially for your
(10:47):
listeners, to know like there isa good business benefit to this
as well.
And if you're.
You know, if you're a business,it's 2023.
Having a site that's accessibleto people with disabilities is
just a good business practice,right Like?
Roughly 15 to 20 percent of thepopulation Identifies as having
a disability, and so if you'rea business owner, why would you
limit your market reach as well?
Right like, why wait around fora demand letter to show up
(11:10):
before you know doing the rightthing?
You know being modern andopening up your business to you
know potential customers orclients you may be losing out on
right now.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
That's a great point and I think that it's very it
can be scary.
I know that when we get thesecalls a lot of times, the
clients that are getting thesedemand letters that's a much
better term, these demandletters they are kind of
weighing this situation.
That is very unfavorable forthem.
(11:40):
It's either potentially go tocourt, because if, if the this
threat is real, potentially goto court, which in my mind,
court costs like $200,000 and orthey can settle for which,
comparatively, let's just sayten thousand dollars or twenty
(12:02):
thousand dollars and who is notgoing to take that threat
Incredibly seriously when itcomes to twenty thousand dollars
versus this imaginary $200,000sum?
And it just it puts them in avery uncomfortable place where
they feel very Backed into acorner.
And, like you said, I do thinkthat Prevention and like
(12:23):
preventative maintenance is kindof the best way so that you
never have to be put into thatkind of situation.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
No, exactly right.
I mean, it shouldn't come downto that.
Obviously, as I mentionedbefore, it's unfortunate.
The landscape is what thelandscape is and you know
business owners are, you know,typically just trying to the
best they can Right, and then toget one of these is obviously
unfortunate, um I.
But it is also, at the sametime, important to try to have
that site be accessible topeople with disabilities at the
same time too, and so hopefullyfolks will be preemptive and
(12:52):
proactive and not wait aroundfor a letter to show up to do
something that is the rightthing to do anyway, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yeah, I mean there has to have been some success.
You one time told me a story Ibelieve it was about Domino's
Pizza at one point that they didget litigated for a substantial
amount of money.
So there has been success inthe past.
Not that we're trying to scareanybody on this, but it's just
like, like you said, there hasto be a legal premise for why
(13:20):
these things do have somevalidity to them, and this is
just kind of a punch mark.
You know the reason why we'veteamed up with Accessaby.
It was one of the cornerscornerstones for what we had
looked at for this year.
As we entered it, we saw GoogleAnalytics.
The GA4 switch was going to beone online fraud protection for
(13:41):
purchases.
That's why we're deepening ourpartnership with ClearSale.
It comes to ADA compliance, andthat's why we're partnering up
with Accessaby as well asPageSpeed, because PageSpeed is
just increasingly important.
We've already done an episodeabout that.
I kind of let's just switchinto something maybe a little
bit more positive.
Let's talk about theaccessibility widget itself.
So this is one of your guys'smany tools, and this is kind of
(14:06):
like the one, though, that wewould probably recommend that
people actually have used.
We've seen it in use on acouple of our clients' website.
Can you kind of just maybe setit up in how it works?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Look, this is a really cooltool.
Again, we talked about thelawsuits, but I think again,
besides the unfortunate reality,this is just a great tool to
have on your site.
So, essentially, how it worksis there's two main components
to it, to how it achievescompliance and creates an
(14:39):
accessible website for you.
The first piece is thefront-facing part, the interface
, and so that's there for thosecolor adjustments, excuse me,
font adjustments, contrast, etcetera.
And then there's the back-endpiece, which is the AI, and
that's what's going to do thosecritical back-end adjustments
(15:00):
that I mentioned before thekeyboard navigation adjustments,
right, the screen readeroptimization to make sure the
site's accessible.
But on that front-facinginterface you actually have
different profiles.
So the idea with that is that auser can go onto the site and
just select the profile thatthey need for their specific
adjustments while they're inthat session on that site.
(15:22):
So, for example, a user withepilepsy can go to one of your
website, right, open up our tooland then just click Caesar,
save Profile, and now the siteis accessible for them to
navigate through.
The beauty, too, is underneaththe profiles there's actual
individual adjustments.
So if they want to get morespecific and more granular, they
(15:44):
can.
There are tons of adjustmentsthey can make.
They can adjust the font, thecolor.
If a colorblind user were goingto go onto the site, they could
change colors.
They don't see colors that theydo.
So it really can get granularand specific to each specific
individual what they need tohave an accessible experience
while on that website.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
And it's just so important, the director of user
experience and one of thesethings.
It's not just user experiencefor me, it's user experience for
everybody and, like you saidabout, like just to pick like a
couple of these different, youknow disabilities or things that
they might need adjustments for.
You said you mentionedcolorblindness.
So let's just say, for example,you have a for sale page and
(16:29):
you're using a bright green textthat says 20% off this thing,
with coupon code, whatever, andit's set onto, for example, a
red background.
I am slightly colorblind.
I don't see red green very well.
A lot of men actually have thatand, as a result, maybe I'd
(16:49):
miss out on the sale and because, you know, it's just such a
color contrast that I just seebrown on brown and it's not as
intense as that.
But let's just, for the sake ofargument, say that for many
people actually it is, andthat's kind of one of these
examples of they just switch iton and be able to see this
delicious discount and maybethey're going to be able to
(17:10):
check out, and it puts them onan even footing, and that's kind
of just what the ADA is about.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's two components to this
too.
Right, when we talk about userexperience, like there's the one
example, like you said, wherethe user simply cannot, the site
is not accessible to them,right, they can't see the sale,
maybe they can't click into theshopping cart if the site's not
accessible, but then also ifit's just difficult for them,
you know, the average human, Ithink, is going to say you know
what I'm out of here and gosomewhere else.
(17:38):
So if I'm a business owner, I'mtrying to have the best website
possible.
This is how I show off my brand, my store, whatever it is, to
customers and I want it to be,you know, a at the very least
accessible to them.
But also, you know, you don'twant to steer away customers
because it's a difficult timefor them to navigate through and
do what they need to do tobecome a client of your business
(17:59):
in the first place.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Yeah, and here's what I want to say Before we get any
further and I will mention thisin the intro is that Punchmark
websites are ADA compliant outof the box, and we have made a
lot of effort, taken a lot ofsteps and done a lot of research
on our own to make sure that,out of the box, what we mean
when we launch your website,your website, will be as ADA
compliant as possible.
(18:20):
I think that there is a healthyrange.
Correct me if I'm wrong, matt.
I think it's like you need tobe at least 95% compliant or
something within.
You've made reasonable steps,right, and our websites do hit
that.
The part that I think we need tokind of focus on is like what
happens as you're running yourwebsite and because we're not
going to be there every step ofthe way to kind of tell you hey,
(18:43):
man, maybe don't throw thisbanner up there that is, you
know, green on red because forsome people they won't be able
to see it or you might fail anaccessibility test or an ADA
compliance audit, and for thatthat's where this kind of comes
in is it's just covering yourback, because most likely, what
we're always encouraging ourclients to do is to be utilizing
(19:07):
the tools that we have madeavailable to them.
So that's using Page Builder andSite Manager to make inner
pages or update banners orupdate widgets or to be kind of
just letting this page servetheir website, to serve their
business.
However, that does come withlike a little bit of onus, and
we understand that things comeup or you might not understand
ADA compliance rules and this isjust kind of just a little
(19:30):
extra insurance and covering it.
And also, like you said, maybeyou're just increasing your
reach, if you're trying tobecome a wider reaching company
and maybe that means gettingoutside of just your city or in
you're trying to expand to otherparts of your state, or maybe
you're trying to expand outsideof your state to other parts of
your region.
(19:51):
This will allow you to tap into, like you said, I think 15% to
20%.
That is a significant number ofshoppers.
And if nothing will motivateyou, maybe a little bit of
commerce will motivate you, andwe totally understand that.
Whether you come from a pointof compassion or a point of
commerce, I do think it doesmake some sense to have that in
there 100% and, like you saidtoo and kind of alluded to
(20:14):
before, no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Look, websites in this age they're living dynamic
things, right.
People make content, updatesand changes over time.
You know, I think a huge partof the value here is just having
that piece of mind of sayingyou know what?
I've got this tool on my site.
It's powered by AI.
It's going to make sure thatthe site, as we make changes to
it, it's doing what it needs todo right.
It's staying accessible, sowe're not potentially losing out
(20:36):
on customers because they don'thave an accessible experience,
right, and you know, I thinkthat's really important.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yeah, and this is not again try not to come at this
from a from a fear aspect,because I mean, no one wants
that, but I do think that, likewe said, the internet is not the
wild wild west anymore.
We are not coding in flash andwe're not having pop-ups that
you know are infinite pop-upswith moving X's and things like
(21:03):
that.
They need to be at a certainstandard and that's kind of
where we're trying to approachit from.
So, if people are interested inlearning a little bit more
about Accessiby with Punchmark'spartnership we have a lot of
listeners that are Punchmarkclients not everybody but where
can they go for more information?
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Yeah, so accessibycom would be A-C-C-E-S-S-I-B-E dot
com.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yeah, and if you're a Punchmark client, make sure you
visit our referral link.
It's accessibycom slash A as inalpha slash punchmark.
That'll get you 20% off yourpackage with Accessiby.
This, again, is not we're nottrying to scare you guys into
this at all.
It's mainly if you are buildinga lot of content or you are
(21:50):
trying to expand your reach.
We hope you at least considerthis.
Ada compliance is something wecare about a lot, obviously as a
website platform, and we dowant to provide, like we said,
these four pillars.
When we entered 2023, we knewthat ADA compliance was going to
be something that we needed totackle and have offers and
solutions available for you andto me, it's better to have a
(22:14):
solution on deck before youreceive a litigation letter as
opposed to after.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Something else, man.
No, I mean you said it.
You took the words out of mymouth.
I think this is something whereit's always better to be
preemptive, proactive.
And then the fact that it'sjust a good thing to do and it's
a good business practice, Ithink, makes it a home run
really Heck, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Everybody appreciate you listening.
I hope you learned something.
I think that ADA compliance isone of those things.
It only takes you leavingAmerica to go and see other
places.
I visited Argentina last yearand I was shocked at the lack of
like handicap accessible places.
If you were in, for example, awheelchair, I mean good luck
(22:57):
getting up a lot of cobblestonestreets or a lot of accessing a
lot of businesses that havestairs only.
That's just kind of it'ssomething that America actually
does take seriously, which iskind of refreshing once you
realize that not the entireworld is actually doing that.
So I hope this opened up youreyes to the fact that there are
(23:17):
people out there with epilepsyor colorblindness or just a host
of different things.
So, even if you are not whollyinto this yet, we do hope that
this did at least raise that toyour attention.
Matt, thank you so much.
This was great.
We'll have new episodes nextweek, tuesday, and it's going to
(23:38):
be a big one.
Cheers everybody, bye, allright, everybody.
That's the end of the show.
Thanks so much for listening.
This week's episode was broughtto you by Punchmark and produced
and hosted by Michael Burpo.
My guest this week was MatthewTersian, who is, with Accessibi,
a expert in ADA compliance.
This week's episode was editedby Paul Suarez and with music by
(24:02):
Ross Cochran.
Don't forget to rate thepodcast on Spotify and Apple
Podcasts.
It really helps the show grow.
Leave us feedback onpunchmarkcom slash loop that's
L-O-U-P-E, and make sure youcheck out Accessibi and
Punchmark's referral link in theshow notes below and receive
20% off.
Thanks, we'll be back next week, tuesday, with a really big
(24:22):
episode.
Welcome back everybody to In the Loop.
What is up everybody?
My name is Michael Burpo.
Thanks again for listening toIn the Loop.
This week we're talking aboutADA compliance, and, while that
might not sound like the mostexciting topic, it's something
you need to know about.
Ada stands for Americans withDisabilities Act, and what that
is is a set of rules that yourwebsite needs to comply to in
(00:24):
order to be accessible andavailable to use by people with
different types of motorfunction impairment or visual
impairments.
So just think of it as like awheelchair ramp for your website
.
If you don't have a wheelchairramp for your business, then you
aren't ADA compliant in yourphysical location, and the same
can be true for your onlineexperience, and that's why I'm
talking with Matt from Accessibi, and we're talking all about
(00:46):
the ways that your website needsto comply, as well as how they
can help with making yourwebsite accessible.
Punchmark websites are ADAcompliant out of the box, and we
want you to know that when youare updating your content, we're
not going to be there to beable to tell you hey, maybe
don't use green text on a redbackground, because people with
color blindness might not beable to read it, and that's
(01:08):
where their accessibility widgetmight be able to help, and we
want that to be available to you.
Punchmark recently partneredwith Accessibi, and Punchmark
partners and clients can receive20% off by using our referral
code, which will be in the shownotes below.
I hope you enjoyed hearing ustalk about this.
It's a very interesting topicand let us know what you think.
(01:28):
Thanks, this episode is broughtto you by Punchmark, the Julie
Industries favorite websiteplatform.
Whether you're looking forbetter e-commerce performance,
business growth or campaignsthat drive traffic and sales,
punchmark's website andmarketing services were made
(01:49):
just for you.
It's never too late totransform your business with a
user-friendly, point-of-sale,integrated website platform
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Thanks, and now back to theshow.
Welcome back everybody.
I'm joined by Matthew, who iswith Accessibi, and we're going
to be talking all about ADAcompliance.
(02:33):
How are you doing today, matt?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
I'm doing great, Michael.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
doing, I'm doing all right.
So can you kind of set up forthe audience the concept of the
Americans with Disabilities Act?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, absolutely so.
The ADA.
It was really put in place toprohibit discrimination against
anyone based upon their abilityor disabilities.
What we're really going tofocus on today is Title III of
the ADA, because that is whatcovers public accommodations,
and you know what those are.
(03:05):
Are public accommodationsreally just a legal phrase,
including businesses,restaurants, you know, retail
stores, pretty much every placeof work, and that's sort of
what's going to be most relevantto what we're talking about
today.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah, so the way that it's been explained to me is
it's very similar to having aramp for people in wheelchairs
to be able to access yourbusiness, and in America that's
obviously very important for usto make it so that we are
available and accessible topeople of every type of
lifestyle and also ability ordisability, and having a ramp
(03:41):
it's just like that, except onthe web.
Is that kind of at all sort ofhow you explain it, or that's
kind of like a dumbed downversion?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
No, I mean, that's it .
I mean I think that is the bestsort of direct layman's term
way of describing it.
I mean the ADA.
You know, typically when we'retalking about it from a physical
standpoint, it is thatwheelchair ramp, right, it is
that handicap bathroom.
But obviously, today, so muchof business is now done online
Like this is where we go to shop, this is where we go to book
our appointments, and so, youknow, in today's world, you got
(04:09):
to have that wheelchair rampquote unquote for your website.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
There you go.
So I mean I'm going to behonest, it's not the sexiest of
topics to discuss, but it'sbecoming increasingly important
for our clients.
Nothing is worse for us as awebsite provider, and as also
for our clients who are aretailer who own a website, than
(04:32):
getting these, you know,threatening letters from these
lawyers or from on behalf of aclient that's saying like hey,
we found that your website isnot ADA compliant.
My client has, you know, wantedto use your website and we're
now suing you for this muchmoney and, you know, if you
don't pay us this much, we'regoing to take you to court.
Can you kind of give us anoverview of what the most common
(04:55):
things that people are fallingshort on when, with respect to
their quote, unquote, their,their wheelchair ramps for their
websites?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, no, I mean that's that's such an important
question, especially because,like you said, the landscape is
what the landscape is at themoment.
So I think you know.
The first thing is you knowmost people have some kind of
you know front end adjustmentsalready in place, whether it's
via free plugin or there's somecheap accessibility plugins out
there.
When I say front endadjustments, michael, I'm
(05:24):
referring to adjustments tocolors, font.
You know things on the, on theyou know the front end of the
site.
The pieces that I think mostpeople miss and that are
critical are the back endadjustments.
So these are where most peoplefall short and why.
You know, if, unfortunately,something were to happen where
they would be.
You know they were served todemand that our lawsuit
(05:46):
questioning that their theirsite's web accessibility and ADA
compliance.
Chances are they're most likelymissing the mark when it comes
to those back end adjustments.
And when I say back endadjustments, I'm focused on two
things keyboard navigationadjustments for those
individuals who are motorimpaired and screen reader
optimization those adjustmentsfor individuals who are blind,
who are using devices calledscreen readers that read aloud
(06:09):
the content on the actualwebsite for them.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah.
So, for example, I mean a lotof people don't even think of
these folks because you knowthey might not have interacted
with someone who is either motorimpaired or or blind, or, you
know, with limited site, anddon't realize that there are
these devices in tools to allowthem to, you know, live a normal
(06:32):
life.
And, yeah, it requires a littlebit of accommodation on behalf
of the website people to be ableto, you know, accommodate for
those people.
So, for example, can you talkme through how, like a screen
reader is going to work, justfor just so that people that are
listening can kind of get intheir mind?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Yeah, absolutely so.
If a blind user were to come ona website, they have that
device, the screen reader.
Jaws is typically the most, isthe most common one.
But essentially, as that blinduser is navigating through the
website, that screen reader isgoing to read aloud the content
focused on the screen for them.
So when that blind usernavigates over a link, you know
(07:09):
a button that links them to youknow one of the social pages,
maybe on that site, like toFacebookcom, let's say, that
screen will read aloud to them.
You know Facebookcom.
Now, where most people fallshort is they don't have those
alt tags in place.
They haven't done that, thatback end work to make the site
accessible.
So when that blind user goes onto that website, when they
(07:31):
navigate over that button,there's no context for them.
The screen reader is justreading a loud button, or maybe
it'll.
It'll just say Facebook, but itdoesn't say hey, new window,
facebook button, facebook comm,giving that user the context of
hey, if I click this.
This is where I'm going.
Same thing if there are imageson the site, typically there's
no all tags describing theactual.
(07:52):
You know the image itself.
So if a blind user were to comeon to your site and you have an
image there that's importantand relevant to the context of
of the website, there's nothingdescribing for that blind user
as their screen reader to readit aloud.
It might just say the screenermight just read aloud image or
PNG file, right, whereas if you,if you do the accessibility
(08:14):
work, there's gonna be an alttag there describing what the
image is and if there's any textembedded in the image, you know
what that text says as well.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yeah, I mean.
So what's interesting is that,relatively, are the internet has
been around for relatively ashort amount of time.
I mean I be.
A lot of our listeners are inthe their 40s, 50s, 60s and they
remember when the internet was.
I refer to it very lovingly asthe Wild West.
I remember when things were inflash.
(08:41):
I mean there was no rules whenit came to, for example, color
use or you know what was allowedwhen it came to flashing or
move in.
You still see it in certainwebsites where they might not
have to abide by the ADA, butthey, you know they make it very
difficult to close out pop-ups.
Yeah, or they make it, you know.
Yeah, I mean yeah, it becomes.
(09:04):
Once you start using thesewebsites or have used websites
that are not compliant or ortrying to, or maybe they're
intentionally not compliant, yourealize that it is about, like,
in America, we are trying tomake it so that everybody is
able to have a, you know, anequal or reasonable way of life
when it comes to that kind ofstuff, and that's kind of where
(09:26):
we enter with these, theseletters.
So can you kind of set up whata common?
I would hate to refer to themas a shakedown letter, right,
but for the sake of argumentalways refer to it as that.
Can you kind of set up what oneof those would say and why
they're coming out?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah, so you know.
Unfortunately, like I said, thelandscape is what the landscape
is.
Often times what will happen isa demand letter will be sent
out by a plaintiff to a business, basically saying the site is
not accessible and compliant anddemanding that remediations are
made.
Oftentimes, by the way, theseend up getting settled fairly
(10:03):
quickly, but typically, andunfortunately for you know,
sometimes even tens of thousandsof dollars them out, typically
based on the size of the thebusiness.
Unfortunately, a lot of smallto medium-sized businesses
receive these letters, and sowhere I work, access be we're
trying to make sure the site isaccessible, so that you know,
these types of things, you know,hopefully don't happen and if
(10:25):
they do, you know you do have anaccessible site at that point.
And I think too, just anotherthing to piggyback off of what
we were talking before but Ithink is relevant to this you
know, obviously no one wants toreceive a demand letter or have
a lawsuit for their site notbeing ADA compliant, and you
know that we are talking aboutdoing the right thing here.
But I think it's also worth,you know, especially for your
(10:47):
listeners, to know like there isa good business benefit to this
as well.
And if you're.
You know, if you're a business,it's 2023.
Having a site that's accessibleto people with disabilities is
just a good business practice,right Like?
Roughly 15 to 20 percent of thepopulation Identifies as having
a disability, and so if you'rea business owner, why would you
limit your market reach as well?
Right like, why wait around fora demand letter to show up
(11:10):
before you know doing the rightthing?
You know being modern andopening up your business to you
know potential customers orclients you may be losing out on
right now.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
That's a great point and I think that it's very it
can be scary.
I know that when we get thesecalls a lot of times, the
clients that are getting thesedemand letters that's a much
better term, these demandletters they are kind of
weighing this situation.
That is very unfavorable forthem.
(11:40):
It's either potentially go tocourt, because if, if the this
threat is real, potentially goto court, which in my mind,
court costs like $200,000 and orthey can settle for which,
comparatively, let's just sayten thousand dollars or twenty
(12:02):
thousand dollars and who is notgoing to take that threat
Incredibly seriously when itcomes to twenty thousand dollars
versus this imaginary $200,000sum?
And it just it puts them in avery uncomfortable place where
they feel very Backed into acorner.
And, like you said, I do thinkthat Prevention and like
(12:23):
preventative maintenance is kindof the best way so that you
never have to be put into thatkind of situation.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
No, exactly right.
I mean, it shouldn't come downto that.
Obviously, as I mentionedbefore, it's unfortunate.
The landscape is what thelandscape is and you know
business owners are, you know,typically just trying to the
best they can Right, and then toget one of these is obviously
unfortunate, um I.
But it is also, at the sametime, important to try to have
that site be accessible topeople with disabilities at the
same time too, and so hopefullyfolks will be preemptive and
(12:52):
proactive and not wait aroundfor a letter to show up to do
something that is the rightthing to do anyway, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yeah, I mean there has to have been some success.
You one time told me a story Ibelieve it was about Domino's
Pizza at one point that they didget litigated for a substantial
amount of money.
So there has been success inthe past.
Not that we're trying to scareanybody on this, but it's just
like, like you said, there hasto be a legal premise for why
(13:20):
these things do have somevalidity to them, and this is
just kind of a punch mark.
You know the reason why we'veteamed up with Accessaby.
It was one of the cornerscornerstones for what we had
looked at for this year.
As we entered it, we saw GoogleAnalytics.
The GA4 switch was going to beone online fraud protection for
(13:41):
purchases.
That's why we're deepening ourpartnership with ClearSale.
It comes to ADA compliance, andthat's why we're partnering up
with Accessaby as well asPageSpeed, because PageSpeed is
just increasingly important.
We've already done an episodeabout that.
I kind of let's just switchinto something maybe a little
bit more positive.
Let's talk about theaccessibility widget itself.
So this is one of your guys'smany tools, and this is kind of
(14:06):
like the one, though, that wewould probably recommend that
people actually have used.
We've seen it in use on acouple of our clients' website.
Can you kind of just maybe setit up in how it works?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Look, this is a really cooltool.
Again, we talked about thelawsuits, but I think again,
besides the unfortunate reality,this is just a great tool to
have on your site.
So, essentially, how it worksis there's two main components
to it, to how it achievescompliance and creates an
(14:39):
accessible website for you.
The first piece is thefront-facing part, the interface
, and so that's there for thosecolor adjustments, excuse me,
font adjustments, contrast, etcetera.
And then there's the back-endpiece, which is the AI, and
that's what's going to do thosecritical back-end adjustments
(15:00):
that I mentioned before thekeyboard navigation adjustments,
right, the screen readeroptimization to make sure the
site's accessible.
But on that front-facinginterface you actually have
different profiles.
So the idea with that is that auser can go onto the site and
just select the profile thatthey need for their specific
adjustments while they're inthat session on that site.
(15:22):
So, for example, a user withepilepsy can go to one of your
website, right, open up our tooland then just click Caesar,
save Profile, and now the siteis accessible for them to
navigate through.
The beauty, too, is underneaththe profiles there's actual
individual adjustments.
So if they want to get morespecific and more granular, they
(15:44):
can.
There are tons of adjustmentsthey can make.
They can adjust the font, thecolor.
If a colorblind user were goingto go onto the site, they could
change colors.
They don't see colors that theydo.
So it really can get granularand specific to each specific
individual what they need tohave an accessible experience
while on that website.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
And it's just so important, the director of user
experience and one of thesethings.
It's not just user experiencefor me, it's user experience for
everybody and, like you saidabout, like just to pick like a
couple of these different, youknow disabilities or things that
they might need adjustments for.
You said you mentionedcolorblindness.
So let's just say, for example,you have a for sale page and
(16:29):
you're using a bright green textthat says 20% off this thing,
with coupon code, whatever, andit's set onto, for example, a
red background.
I am slightly colorblind.
I don't see red green very well.
A lot of men actually have thatand, as a result, maybe I'd
(16:49):
miss out on the sale and because, you know, it's just such a
color contrast that I just seebrown on brown and it's not as
intense as that.
But let's just, for the sake ofargument, say that for many
people actually it is, andthat's kind of one of these
examples of they just switch iton and be able to see this
delicious discount and maybethey're going to be able to
(17:10):
check out, and it puts them onan even footing, and that's kind
of just what the ADA is about.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's two components to this
too.
Right, when we talk about userexperience, like there's the one
example, like you said, wherethe user simply cannot, the site
is not accessible to them,right, they can't see the sale,
maybe they can't click into theshopping cart if the site's not
accessible, but then also ifit's just difficult for them,
you know, the average human, Ithink, is going to say you know
what I'm out of here and gosomewhere else.
(17:38):
So if I'm a business owner, I'mtrying to have the best website
possible.
This is how I show off my brand, my store, whatever it is, to
customers and I want it to be,you know, a at the very least
accessible to them.
But also, you know, you don'twant to steer away customers
because it's a difficult timefor them to navigate through and
do what they need to do tobecome a client of your business
(17:59):
in the first place.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Yeah, and here's what I want to say Before we get any
further and I will mention thisin the intro is that Punchmark
websites are ADA compliant outof the box, and we have made a
lot of effort, taken a lot ofsteps and done a lot of research
on our own to make sure that,out of the box, what we mean
when we launch your website,your website, will be as ADA
compliant as possible.
(18:20):
I think that there is a healthyrange.
Correct me if I'm wrong, matt.
I think it's like you need tobe at least 95% compliant or
something within.
You've made reasonable steps,right, and our websites do hit
that.
The part that I think we need tokind of focus on is like what
happens as you're running yourwebsite and because we're not
going to be there every step ofthe way to kind of tell you hey,
(18:43):
man, maybe don't throw thisbanner up there that is, you
know, green on red because forsome people they won't be able
to see it or you might fail anaccessibility test or an ADA
compliance audit, and for thatthat's where this kind of comes
in is it's just covering yourback, because most likely, what
we're always encouraging ourclients to do is to be utilizing
(19:07):
the tools that we have madeavailable to them.
So that's using Page Builder andSite Manager to make inner
pages or update banners orupdate widgets or to be kind of
just letting this page servetheir website, to serve their
business.
However, that does come withlike a little bit of onus, and
we understand that things comeup or you might not understand
ADA compliance rules and this isjust kind of just a little
(19:30):
extra insurance and covering it.
And also, like you said, maybeyou're just increasing your
reach, if you're trying tobecome a wider reaching company
and maybe that means gettingoutside of just your city or in
you're trying to expand to otherparts of your state, or maybe
you're trying to expand outsideof your state to other parts of
your region.
(19:51):
This will allow you to tap into, like you said, I think 15% to
20%.
That is a significant number ofshoppers.
And if nothing will motivateyou, maybe a little bit of
commerce will motivate you, andwe totally understand that.
Whether you come from a pointof compassion or a point of
commerce, I do think it doesmake some sense to have that in
there 100% and, like you saidtoo and kind of alluded to
(20:14):
before, no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Look, websites in this age they're living dynamic
things, right.
People make content, updatesand changes over time.
You know, I think a huge partof the value here is just having
that piece of mind of sayingyou know what?
I've got this tool on my site.
It's powered by AI.
It's going to make sure thatthe site, as we make changes to
it, it's doing what it needs todo right.
It's staying accessible, sowe're not potentially losing out
(20:36):
on customers because they don'thave an accessible experience,
right, and you know, I thinkthat's really important.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yeah, and this is not again try not to come at this
from a from a fear aspect,because I mean, no one wants
that, but I do think that, likewe said, the internet is not the
wild wild west anymore.
We are not coding in flash andwe're not having pop-ups that
you know are infinite pop-upswith moving X's and things like
(21:03):
that.
They need to be at a certainstandard and that's kind of
where we're trying to approachit from.
So, if people are interested inlearning a little bit more
about Accessiby with Punchmark'spartnership we have a lot of
listeners that are Punchmarkclients not everybody but where
can they go for more information?
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Yeah, so accessibycom would be A-C-C-E-S-S-I-B-E dot
com.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yeah, and if you're a Punchmark client, make sure you
visit our referral link.
It's accessibycom slash A as inalpha slash punchmark.
That'll get you 20% off yourpackage with Accessiby.
This, again, is not we're nottrying to scare you guys into
this at all.
It's mainly if you are buildinga lot of content or you are
(21:50):
trying to expand your reach.
We hope you at least considerthis.
Ada compliance is something wecare about a lot, obviously as a
website platform, and we dowant to provide, like we said,
these four pillars.
When we entered 2023, we knewthat ADA compliance was going to
be something that we needed totackle and have offers and
solutions available for you andto me, it's better to have a
(22:14):
solution on deck before youreceive a litigation letter as
opposed to after.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Something else, man.
No, I mean you said it.
You took the words out of mymouth.
I think this is something whereit's always better to be
preemptive, proactive.
And then the fact that it'sjust a good thing to do and it's
a good business practice, Ithink, makes it a home run
really Heck, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Everybody appreciate you listening.
I hope you learned something.
I think that ADA compliance isone of those things.
It only takes you leavingAmerica to go and see other
places.
I visited Argentina last yearand I was shocked at the lack of
like handicap accessible places.
If you were in, for example, awheelchair, I mean good luck
(22:57):
getting up a lot of cobblestonestreets or a lot of accessing a
lot of businesses that havestairs only.
That's just kind of it'ssomething that America actually
does take seriously, which iskind of refreshing once you
realize that not the entireworld is actually doing that.
So I hope this opened up youreyes to the fact that there are
(23:17):
people out there with epilepsyor colorblindness or just a host
of different things.
So, even if you are not whollyinto this yet, we do hope that
this did at least raise that toyour attention.
Matt, thank you so much.
This was great.
We'll have new episodes nextweek, tuesday, and it's going to
(23:38):
be a big one.
Cheers everybody, bye, allright, everybody.
That's the end of the show.
Thanks so much for listening.
This week's episode was broughtto you by Punchmark and produced
and hosted by Michael Burpo.
My guest this week was MatthewTersian, who is, with Accessibi,
a expert in ADA compliance.
This week's episode was editedby Paul Suarez and with music by
(24:02):
Ross Cochran.
Don't forget to rate thepodcast on Spotify and Apple
Podcasts.
It really helps the show grow.
Leave us feedback onpunchmarkcom slash loop that's
L-O-U-P-E, and make sure youcheck out Accessibi and
Punchmark's referral link in theshow notes below and receive
20% off.
Thanks, we'll be back next week, tuesday, with a really big
(24:22):
episode.
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