September 30, 2025 • 40 mins
Mike sits down with his boss Ross Cockerham, Punchmark Co-Founder & CEO, about how he balances attending trade shows and events vs. being present at his own business vs. family life.
Every business owner learns to balance these roles on their own, as well as how they fold into their own personal lives, but the journey is important and worth discussing! Enjoy the conversation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
Welcome to In the Loop.
What is up, everybody?
My name is Michael Burpo.
Thanks again for listening to Inthe Loop.
This week I'm joined byPunchmark CEO and co-founder
Ross Cochran.
And Ross is my boss, but he alsojust finished a bit of a tour of
(00:22):
going to AGS and the Edgeworkshop and then comes back and
has to be a CEO again.
And we talk about the decisionof going to these events instead
of sending someone in his place,what it's like having to uh lead
a team of people without gettinginvolved in every single task,
and what that's been like overthe course of the years of going
(00:42):
from just a two-person companyto now, you know, over 20.
It's a really interestingconversation.
We have these recurring chatsoccasionally where we've uh
talked about the life of a CEO,and I hope to make it as
relatable as possible for otherpeople who are running
businesses and you know, whetherthat's small businesses or large
(01:02):
jewelry businesses.
I think it's a really goodconversation.
Switch things up a little bitand talk more about business
management as opposed to just uhjewelry.
I hope you enjoy.
Cheers.
SPEAKER_00 (01:15):
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And now back to the show.
SPEAKER_01 (02:16):
What's up, everybody?
My name is Michael Burpo.
I am joined by my boss, RossCochram, CEO and co-founder of
Punchmark.
How are you doing today, Ross?
Doing good, Mike.
How you doing?
So well.
I'm excited to have thisconversation a little bit more
open-ended.
Uh, you've been a busy beelately and been traveling
around, lots of trade shows, um,and then you come back and
(02:38):
things are waiting for you,ready to be done.
Uh, could you maybe recap?
I think it's probably the lasttwo weeks and what you've been
up to?
SPEAKER_00 (02:46):
Yes.
Um, so first we went to theConverge event, which is um sort
of a hybrid between AGS and GIA.
AGS is a conclave event, whichhas been going on for quite some
time, uh, basically since 1934.
They converged to uh sort ofsister organizations together.
(03:07):
They had it in Carlsbad,California, which is uh stone's
throw from GIA's campus.
Um and this time it was it waspretty much the same format as
most conclaves, um, with alittle bit more juice, so to
speak.
They had uh slightly moreinvolvement from Susan Jacques,
the uh CEO of GIA.
(03:28):
Um, and it is my favorite eventof the entire industry, and that
was awesome.
That was early September, um,and then followed by uh the Edge
conference in Shelton,Connecticut.
Um, and every year the Edge putson a sort of workshop slash
conference where they bring inabout a hundred retailers, um
(03:50):
they bring in all the partners,all the spokes of the wheel, so
to speak, uh to kind of you knowpromote themselves, announce,
you know, introduce themselves.
Um, and then they just go reallyhard with education.
Um, education, best practices,tips from technical stuff to
hiring and everything like that.
So um the partners, we only getfive minutes to talk there.
(04:13):
Um, but it's a really, reallygood event because there is
just, you know, it's one bigsort of wheel, like I said, and
it and everyone plays a part.
So people genuinely want to knowwhat you have to offer as a
partner.
Um, and then you kind of, youknow, schmooze a little bit and
and grab some wine and dinnerand stuff like that.
(04:33):
Um, so those are those arereally some very good events for
us to close out our year.
We're not doing any Octobertrade shows, um, but it was a
whirlwind, you know, just goingto both back to back.
SPEAKER_01 (04:46):
Yeah.
And you know, these the speakingcircuit, you know, going to
these events, and uh there areother CEOs that are doing this
as well.
And sometimes it's like, ah, I'msure, I'm sure it's difficult
for you to balance.
Why are we deciding to go tothese?
Because both of these actually,not selling events, purely
(05:06):
educational events.
Um, AGS, especially, is verymuch like you go there and
you're gonna educate and you'regonna give a talk about
something that you feel isimportant, and then the edge,
it's it's like a workshop, youknow?
It's very similar to ours.
You're gonna go and you're gonnatalk for yeah, five minutes,
cram as much in as you can, andthen it's just like be present,
schmoo a little bit.
(05:27):
What is it that you're trying toget out of actually just going
to a educational thing thatmakes it worth going to as a CEO
instead of you know, taking careof the home, the home field kind
of thing?
SPEAKER_00 (05:41):
Yeah, it's a good question.
Um, you know, I actually get alot more out of these
educational/slash networkingevents than the buying events.
And here's why.
Number one, um, you know, I knowa lot of people in the industry,
I have a lot of friends in theindustry, and I want to help my
friends.
So that's like phase one.
That's from I know Punchmark asa whole wants to help and we
(06:03):
want to educate, but for mypersonal uh sort of uh you know
point of view, um, I just wantto help as many of my friends as
possible because you know thisindustry is very much behind.
So that's square one for me.
But number two, um there's thethis when you go to a buying
show, there are these walls thatare up, right?
(06:25):
A lot of a lot of boundaries areup where retailers will even
walk around covering theirbadges up, right, with their
portfolios and whatnot.
And um, you know, at theseshows, it's so much different
because um everybody's guard isdown and you get to meet people
just to meet people.
And for me, Conclave andConverge, these are just as much
(06:48):
of an educational event for meas they are to the retailer
attendees.
So look at it as a kind of stateof the union on the biggest
retailers in the industry, thebiggest issues in the industry,
um, you know, from you know,anywhere from diamond grading
to, you know, ethical andsustainable points that people
are trying to make.
(07:08):
And so I'll go to sessions, youknow, I'll I'll go to sessions,
I'll go to panels, um, and notonly will I go to them, but I'll
also take part in um speaking atthem.
So I gain a lot there.
But the networking aspect ishuge.
I go to these shows just to be ahuman being.
I don't like to talk about work.
I don't like to talk about whatI do.
(07:29):
If someone asks me what I do, Ichange the subject and I talk
about, you know, like my kidsand make it personal, but also
ask them about their businessand I go to genuinely learn.
Um eventually it comes outbecause people are, you know,
interested in what we do atPunchmark.
But but that's the thing.
I I walk I get home and my brainis just completely sort of
(07:50):
rewired with you know what'swhat the industry is really
doing right now.
Um there was a panel on Gen Zand even Gen Alpha, you know,
like on what their take is onthe industry, millennials and
Gen Zs primarily, um hosted by apanel of Gen Z.
And it was very, veryinteresting.
I can't even tell you how manylittle mini arguments would
(08:11):
happen about lab growing versusnatural diamonds and things like
that.
It was kind of funny.
Became almost like political.
Um, but there was so much there.
So, so for those, you know, mymy initiative is, and then sort
of the self-serving aspect ofit, because you know, you got to
look at it like what's in it forus kind of thing.
You know, we we we know a lot.
(08:32):
We've been around the industry avery long time.
We've been uh in tech uh andmarketing a long time.
And so to get up there and notonly help our friends and help
the industry a little bit, itdoes peg us as you know an
authority on the subject.
And then when people arethinking about, hey, who do I go
to for a website or digitalmarketing, um, we go to
(08:52):
Punchmark.
So obviously that's sort of aside effect of you know doing
all the right things and justbeing up there, being ourselves
and talking about what we sortof nerd out about.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01 (09:03):
Mm-hmm.
You know, I I think that the onetrue thing I've found about this
podcast, but also just ingeneral, is I like people who
care about things and who arepassionate about things.
And what is cool is when you goto jewelry shows, well, I've
learned more often than not,even the people who play it
cool, uh, they're like thejewelry nerds, man.
(09:24):
And they love this stuff.
They love it.
And it's super cool getting achance to talk with some of
these people that they getreally into jewelry and talking
about, yeah, uh sourcing jewelryand trends and you know that the
age-old um argument of labversus nat right now and and
things like that.
And hearing you can actuallychange your business quite a
(09:48):
substantial amount based on someof these changes.
Um, I'm starting to like comearound to uh, for example, with
with charms.
Like I've I've started listeningand reading articles about uh
jewelry trends.
I'm starting to think like, ohman, maybe maybe charms are
having a thing.
I personally am not a fan ofwearing them, but it's like if
we start uh paying attention towhat's actually happening, a lot
(10:11):
of times, you know, like the oldsaying, ball don't lie.
If you can just go out there andtalk to people and look at data,
well, suddenly it's like lessabout your feelings, and
suddenly you can start makingthese uh objective decisions.
So you go to these things, is ituh are you talking to other CEOs
like vendor-to-vendor, or is itmainly vendor-to-retailer uh
(10:32):
sort of aspect?
SPEAKER_00 (10:33):
It's all over the place.
Um, and so what happens is, youknow, I was making an
observation, especially thistime, that you go to the shows
and you're rubbing elbows with,you know, retailers who are$25
million stores,$80 millionstores, um, and you're you're
looking at them like, wow, youknow, you're here, so you must
(10:57):
be awesome.
And what's cool about it is theylook at you the same way.
Whether you're a vendor, whetheryou're working at GIA, whether
you're a marketer, it doesn'tmatter who you are, they say,
wow, they're here, so they mustbe awesome.
And so what that does is it justlevels the playing field.
Everyone's operating at a veryhigh level, and we all just have
(11:17):
a very high mutual respect forone another.
So, you know, I'll talk to youknow, other CEOs, other
founders, other vendors,salespeople, uh, retailers,
next-gen retailers, sons anddaughters of huge retailers, um,
and then small, small mom andpop shops too, right?
Everyone has to be recertified.
Everyone's going for to upgrade,you know, their titles and keep
(11:40):
it up, you know, every year.
And a lot of times they have toretake certain exams, uh, they
have to make sure that they'reon the latest trends and
techniques and and to continuetheir education.
So no one is exempt from this inthe industry.
It doesn't matter how big or howsmall you are, or what corner
you play in.
SPEAKER_01 (11:58):
Is that kind of conversation?
Do you find that your path andyour journey is very unique?
So, like in the end, like whatis Punchmark?
We are a uh a SaaS-based techcompany.
Um, you know, we're essentiallyfully remote.
We have and we do websites.
That kind of puts us into thisvery unique niche of like only a
(12:21):
couple of companies.
Do you find that when you havethese conversations with other
CEOs or founders and they mightbe doing, I don't know, like
hardware or they're doing ummore maybe closer to the
consumer?
Are you finding that theirexperiences and their growing
pains are very different thanwhat we're experiencing?
Or do you find it's like, oh,you had to go over that hurdle?
(12:43):
Oh, we had to go over thathurdle uh as well.
SPEAKER_00 (12:46):
Yes, um, I do find a lot of similarities, especially
on sort of this side of theglass, so to speak.
You know, the other exhibitors,other vendors, other service
companies, you know, we find,you know, similar pain points
among you know how our retailersare doing, how our retailers are
growing and things like that.
For our unique perspective,we're a little bit different in
(13:10):
the sense that our uniquenessstems from the points where we
are, you if you look at theentire industry like a funnel,
you know, taking productdirectly from vendors through
the retailers directly to theconsumers, we have a unique
standpoint where and viewpointwhere we can see, we can play a
part in all of that, right?
(13:31):
We are creating and facilitatingrelationships between vendors
and retailers by having ourvendor uh premium vendor
program, products that areautomated on retailers'
websites.
Um, a lot of times retailerswill say, What's your buy-in?
Do you have stock balancing, etcetera?
And then, oh, wait, you're apremium vendor with punch mark.
Okay, I'm in.
And I'm very proud of the factthat we're helping facilitate
(13:53):
those relationships.
And then on the front end, we'reseeing and we're creating the
shopping experience of whatcustomers see, you know, our
retailers' customers.
And so we're looking at it froma unique vantage point because
we're able to see sort of a lotmore than other just B2B
companies.
Um, and so we have a uniqueperspective there, uh, whereas
(14:15):
someone might be hyper-focusedon like tools for the trade and
how the tools affect benchjewelers in that very specific
seat inside of a retail store.
Um, but I I always love to learnbecause you learn about you go
to a vendor who has like a verycomplex manufacturing process
and the ERP solution and allthese things from you know, like
(14:37):
people who I met a woman fromBrazil who does gemstones and
she's all in like the factoriesand everything else.
Uh, and then I met another guywho has this diamond company who
has videos of the rough videosof the polished uh and faceted.
And so, like you can follow thejourney of a diamond, and you
(14:58):
look at sourcing in an ERPsystem and you take a rough
diamond, and this rough diamondchanges like three times.
So in the beginning, you have arough diamond that you found,
right?
Or you you might you had someonemine, then you polish it.
Now it becomes different, butit's still the same rough
diamond, it has the same kind ofSKU.
Then you put it into a piece ofjewelry in a finished piece.
(15:18):
So now it has like threedifferent shapes, um, but it's
still the same thing that youcan track.
And that to me is just you knowvery fascinating as far as like
how something goes from you knowthe mind directly to you know
someone's finger as they wear iton a ring.
Um and that's that's a vantagepoint that that we don't get as
as tech and service companies,you know.
(15:40):
So I like to learn a lot.
I like to get down on the groundand learn what how they tick,
how these businesses operate.
But there are so many differentfacets of this industry, no pun
intended, um, and just watchinghow everything unfolds and
everyone works together andmeshes together.
SPEAKER_01 (15:56):
Yeah.
All right, everybody, we'regonna take a quick break and
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Thanks, and now back to theshow.
(17:39):
And we're back.
Yeah, there's a lot of stops.
Uh, that's what I've learned isthere's a lot of steps, and then
there's these side alleys, and Ialways think it's so funny.
Just at JCK.
I mean, we were in the we werein the basement, man, attacking
essentials.
We weren't even on the mainfloor, and that floor that we
were on is still the biggestshow I've ever been a part of.
(18:00):
And the fact that above us wasan even bigger show, just
absolutely madness.
And that's all everybody ismaking their business, you know,
selling shiny pieces of stoneand and expensive metals, and
we're all still kind of workingtogether.
Sometimes I feel like peoplemaybe don't want to work
(18:21):
together, they want to be likethe only solution.
And I'm like, I think it'sbetter if we are like coming
together as like a like asymphony, as opposed to having
our own individual kind ofriffs.
I think uh in punch mark, we'retrying to position ourselves as
this kind of facilitator alongthe way.
Uh, just you know, having workedwith you, um, I guess maybe we
(18:44):
can tease it right now.
One thing that's been reallyinteresting is with you gone,
would never hold this againstyou, you have to make the you
have to make the decision of isit better for the company and
yourself and all of us, becausein the end, as a CEO, you're
leading us, is it better to beout there doing those things,
which is speaking andfacilitating and being a part of
(19:08):
of the greater industry as awhole?
And with your with your brother,our CTO Brian, you guys went to
AGS and you guys had to make thedecision, okay, we're gonna be
gone for a couple of days and godo this.
But in the meantime, it's likeit's not for free.
You know, it's you guys arestill there's projects that I'm
like, all right, I gotta waituntil Ross and Brian come back
(19:29):
because I need you guys.
Uh, it's not like you're justonly making executive decisions.
Uh, as a smallish company, youknow, with 20 or so employees,
you have to be making thatdecision.
Um, that must probably weighheavily on you when you start to
decide (19:45):
am I going to go to these trade shows?
Am I going to skip?
Am I going to send someone in myplace?
Um, what's the uh calculus on adecision making like that?
SPEAKER_00 (19:56):
So it's very interesting you asked that
question because I'm at a prettybig crossroads uh in my life.
Um, the last couple of years,I've had a lot of uh, you know,
growing of my own as far as justas a leader, as a father, as a
as someone as an individual,someone who wants to think
(20:16):
about, you know, my next phaseof life and what I want to do
and how uh I want to spend mytime and things like that, um,
being present for my kids.
So looking at that whole thingas it pertains to me as an
individual and me as a leader inPunchmark, I learned that when I
leave and I sort of leave it upto you and the other directors
(20:40):
and middle middle leadership,it's the best thing I could ever
do.
And here's why.
If I stayed involved in mybusiness on a day-to-day for
every single little thing, um,I've never been above anything.
I'm, you know, almost uh guiltyof rolling up my sleeves a
little too much.
Um and and you know, I say thatjust because, you know, I I'll
(21:03):
do anything from being the CEOto being the janitor or
whatever.
It doesn't matter.
I I will never ask someone elseto do something that I myself
wouldn't do.
But this whole leading byexample thing um has become a
liability to me because whatends up happening is well, oh,
well, that's how Ross does it,so let's just let Ross do that
again.
Um, and so leading by leaving,right, is a different
(21:28):
perspective because what ends uphappening is the biggest
challenges and issues whileyou're absent, your team figures
it out and becomes autonomousand becomes stronger and becomes
empowered.
And so I am very keen on thisterm that I learned recently
through, you know, I'm kind of aTaoist at heart, but uh, this
term called invisibleleadership.
(21:50):
And I love this term.
I don't need to take credit foranything at all.
I don't need to take credit forit.
If anything, I'll take creditfor the people that we hired.
Um, but if anything goodhappens, the team gets and
deserves all the credit forthat.
If anything bad happens, I'mhappy to take the fall and take
credit for that.
And I I don't I don't say thisto to sound like a martyr or
(22:12):
something or to get respect forthat.
I don't, because I again I don'tcare about the credit.
Um, what this does is, you know,if you're an owner of a retail
jewelry store and you knowyou're the biggest sales
associate, you're the you know,the bench jeweler, the
accountant, the floor sweeper,the manager, everything else,
(22:33):
um, you're just going to workyourself into the ground, but
you'll never be able to scalethat business.
It's gonna be you, your name'son the awning, your name's
everything.
When customers come in, you'rethe person they ask for.
So that's what I like.
I like that I'm not the personthat everyone asks for.
I'm not the person, yeah, inwhen people say they call and
they say, Hey, can I talk toJason, our director of
(22:55):
education?
I'm like, Well, he's tied up.
Is there anything I could helpyou with?
They're like, No, I I want totalk to Jason, you know?
And I take pride in that.
I'm so happy that Jason, ourveteran employee for almost 15
years, um, is just killing it.
So, so anyway, to come back toyour question, when I leave and
(23:15):
I'm gone on the point of even avacation, or if I'm at a trade
show speaking and being on theon the sales floor, um I'm happy
that my team can handle things.
And I intentionally sometimesmake myself unavailable.
Um and when I get back, do Ihave a couple fires to put out?
Sure, always.
But I don't like let that youknow get to me and and and say
(23:39):
things like, You see why I couldnever leave, right?
Because that's like, so soanyway, that I'm very happy with
that uh that I've kind offigured that out on my own, of
you know, getting into thatlevel of what some people call
invisible leadership, letting myteam um just do their thing and
and let letting my team buildpunch mark where I'm just kind
(24:02):
of like in the background, youknow?
SPEAKER_01 (24:04):
Yeah.
You know, I think just like thismost recent one, it's it's
funny.
You so you you were away and uhand Brian was away.
Um so we've been working on thisoverhaul of our premium vendor
system, and uh it is you know, ahuge undertaking.
And it's kind of funny becausemy engineers, like the guys who
(24:24):
are building the things underthe like that I'm hopefully
directing, are the CEO and theCTO.
And then suddenly you guys are,you know, you guys were gone for
a couple of days.
Suddenly I'm like, oh wow, I'mso exposed.
Like, I don't know how to dothis thing.
And it it but then you have tofigure it out.
And there's a couple times likesomeone's like, hey, um, this uh
(24:46):
this vendor is showing no uh noprices, and it's like, oh,
that's really not good.
How do we fix this?
And it's just one of thosethings you have to you can
either say, oh, I'm gonna fix itin six days, or I'm going to fix
it myself and like dig a littlebit further.
And that's the kind of stuffthat I think a lot of leaders
sometimes have a hard time with.
(25:08):
Um, especially because we'rewe're punchmark, we're not, you
know, Ross Cochran and friendsor or you know, that kind of
thing, or or Ross and Ross andDan's website company.
We have to uh we I think thatthere's more of this ownership
from the rest of us onPunchmark.
Uh just yesterday, we have anall hands every Tuesday.
(25:30):
And one thing I was talkingabout, I try my best to share
with the company what the restof the what the field looks
like.
Because some of our employeesdon't go to trade shows.
Uh our developers don'ttypically go, and uh our CS reps
typ don't typically go.
And as a result, they might notknow what the field is looking
like and why we're doing some ofthese things.
(25:52):
But what's really cool is wesent out a vendor survey and we
got a whole bunch of really niceresponses back and like really
positive sentiments aboutpunchmark.
And then we are we ran somethingelse in jewelers helping
jewelers and we got all thisnice feedback.
And sometimes I think it's veryimportant for us to also share
the bigger picture and kind ofpass it down to the rest of the
(26:14):
company and explain to themlike, yeah, things are looking
really good.
Like, I feel really good.
Do you guys feel really good?
And then, like, kind ofexplaining to them, like, here's
why I'm feeling this.
It's not just optimism, it'salso data-driven insights on
where we and the industrystands.
You know what I mean?
On that, it's kind of likesharing the bigger picture,
(26:37):
which you guys have always beenvery transparent with me when
there was only eight of ussitting in a room.
And now, as we have started tosprawl and we have more people,
the big picture I feel is veryis tangentially related to what
you were saying about makingyourself unavailable and having
people figure themselves out aswell.
SPEAKER_00 (26:57):
Yeah, for sure.
Um, you know, we all kind ofneed to know what our where our
efforts are going, how we fitin.
And there's uh a team buildingexercise that I always wanted to
do uh with the team and sittingdown where everyone has like a
you know a square piece of paperand you draw uh like whatever's
in this little square.
And ultimately you put all thesquares together like post-it
(27:19):
notes on a board, and eachsquare becomes like a mosaic
tile of a bigger picture.
And and I like that exercise andjust what that depicts in the
sense that you know we havepeople working so intricately on
one very small, what seeminglysmall part of our platform or of
our system, of our communicationor our service uh process.
(27:42):
And just to hear, right, hearback from the big picture, like
wow, what we're doing, like whatyou said yesterday, Mike, um, is
you know, it's the thesentiment, the public sentiment
on Punchmark is very good rightnow.
And our team needs to hear that.
And, you know, you said this isbecause, right, um, our our CS
reps are getting really goodsurvey scores, and our
(28:04):
developers are rolling outreleases that matter, and you
know, our our vendor side isdoing this, and and so it and
our design team is doing this,right?
And and all that plays a bigrole.
So um thanks for shoutingeverybody out because it it is
important.
Like I said, you know, it's it'sthe team that's building punch
mark and making a hugedifference in this industry.
SPEAKER_01 (28:25):
Yeah, I don't know.
It's just the more I think aboutit, uh Punchmark as is being,
having been here for eight and ahalf years at this point, it's
it's pretty crazy to me.
Sometimes I think about likewhere were we when I started?
Um, you know, and we were sosmall.
There was there was eight ornine of us sitting in a room.
And I think the fact that youguys sat uh like six feet behind
(28:48):
me, and I could hear you guysmaking these bigger decisions
sometimes, and it was very, youknow, it wasn't this big like
voodoo thing.
It wasn't like, oh, like we'revision setting.
It was like, okay, we're gonnado this so that we can get there
a little bit faster.
And I think though I keep thatvery internalized, where it's
(29:09):
like, why are we spending allthis time overhauling the
premium vendor system when it'sjust like a small little aspect,
uh facet of our company?
And to me, it's just like youguys set the vision of well, if
we have a good vendor system,suddenly we become a crossroads
and we can start directingthings and start um getting
people buy-in from all aspectsof the company, and we become
(29:32):
the center.
And it's like when you start tobe able to see, we always talk
about like looking up from thesteering wheel.
Uh, that's kind of like a bigpart of it is we uh in the last
like maybe two years, we startedto look up from the steering
wheel and kind of drive into thedistance as opposed to uh, you
know, just building littlecomponents.
(29:54):
Now it's like, okay, how do weactually bring things together?
Which I think is a little bitmore fun, a little bit more
scalable.
Manageable, at least for me.
SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
Sure.
Yeah.
I know I always made that uh youknow point that as an owner, as
a technical owner, you'resitting there just like looking
down and and then you look upand say, Who's driving?
Oh, oh, I'm driving, and likeyou realize that your hands are
actually on the steering wheeland and you forget.
And that's the you know, the theoverused kind of words that you
want to work more on thebusiness than in the business.
(30:22):
Um, and so a lot of times as asmaller business, we weren't
able to do that as much.
And now I'm very proud to saythat we can, but it's all thanks
to our great team.
SPEAKER_01 (30:31):
Teamwork, man.
But let's talk about the otherkind of part of this, the other
team.
We had this conversation uh justabout one year ago, uh, where we
had uh talked about um you hadtaken like uh I think you're not
your first, but one of yourmidsummer vacations last year.
And you came back and you talkedabout what it was like taking a
(30:53):
break and and coming back andnot freaking out.
Um you are balancing travelingwhen it comes to you know going
all over the place.
There's tons of trade showsevery year, uh, and even more
for us because we're not justgoing to buying shows, we're
going to all the other ones too.
We also have our own our ownevents.
Uh how what's the the decisionsand like how do you balance
(31:15):
things with your own family?
Because I'm sure there was atime when we were we were all in
on just work, work, work all thetime.
But since then you've had uhsome kids and now you have to
balance uh them as well.
You can't go all in on one sideor the other, otherwise they
kind of might um not do as well.
How do you have to balance that?
(31:37):
Is that just a decision that youor a conversation you make with
uh with your wife?
SPEAKER_00 (31:42):
Yeah, I mean, sort of every day is is a balance,
right?
Every day you have to kind ofmake some micro decisions.
Um, you know, like uh today, um,you know, usually my wife picks
up my oldest son, he's sevenfrom elementary school, and
today I I need to pick him up.
And so I had to shift like acouple things around, minor
things.
I didn't have any meetingsplanned there, but um, but it's
(32:06):
it's a constant thing that youneed to kind of reshift.
I'm very, very lucky in thesense that my mother-in-law
lives with us, so it's we haveit, we we can do things that a
lot of other couples can't.
Um, and so that helps meprofessionally and personally on
so many levels.
Um, but one thing that'sinteresting is my wife and I
agreed that two kids, we're justgonna have two kids and that's
(32:28):
it, right?
And we agreed on that like whenwe first got married.
She is uh you know a sibling ofof two, right?
And I am a sibling of two, atleast in our main household
growing up.
Um and and so that was importantto us.
Like we can't have an onlychild, we need a balance.
And I remember saying the words,I can't have more than two kids
because I run a business.
(32:48):
And what I was really sayingwas, I can't have more than two
kids because my business runsme.
That's what I was really saying.
And so it's it's interestingthat we had a third uh bonus
baby.
I call him my gravy baby.
Um, and so now things havechanged a lot, and I can't even
(33:09):
say like how happy I am, notonly that we have another human
in the mix, but but that I'mable to do certain things.
And so all the decisions that wehave to make to kind of make up
for things like that, uh, we'rewe're not even in the mix of it
yet.
I mean, just wait till all thesekids are in sports and we're
just driving and soccer moms andbaseball dads and football.
(33:31):
Like it's gonna be a lot ofstuff, right?
So right now, only my oldest sonis playing baseball.
Um, and so I know at some pointit's gonna get what a lot of
parents call grueling, but alsothe kind of the best times of
our lives while we're parenting,right?
Yeah.
Um, and I wonder how that'sgonna play with all the
decisions we're gonna have tomake and like missing a little
(33:52):
bit of work here to go to abaseball game or practice or um,
and I know Brian, you know, mybrother, our CTO, he's going
through that a lot.
He with his oldest, he's 13.
Um, and so he had to miss to goup to a uh a baseball tournament
in Cooperstown with 83 otherteams.
And that like to me, that's likehow cool is that to be able to
(34:14):
do that?
And so imagine if Brian wasn'table to do it, if he wasn't
present for that, if he had, ohsorry, I gotta work, you know,
I'll let my wife take him.
Um, so anyway, I'm I'm I'm verylucky.
I'm very happy that I'm able todo a lot of the things I can do.
And a lot of that is from, youknow, because of the punch
(34:34):
martine, because mymother-in-law, and because my
wife is a rock star, she does somuch.
Um, I probably don't do enoughat home.
Yeah, I definitely don't doenough at home, right?
I I need to step it up and beCEO of the household, right?
So um, and I think a lot of dadsstruggle with that as well.
But, you know, balance iseverything, and there's there's
no such thing as a work-lifebalance.
(34:55):
It's the the word, the wordsdon't even make sense.
You're you're in one world andthen you're ripped from one
world and you go back intoanother world.
They're two separate lives.
And you have to figure out onhow to kind of see saw back and
forth between them and make eachwork for for each other.
You need to have be present foryour family and grow your family
and be there, but you also need,you know, to be to have a sense
(35:17):
of purpose, to be useful in acommunity or in an industry or
in a company.
Um, and obviously you got tomake some money.
So, you know, it's it's alwaysthat balance on how to work it
out.
And I think uh uh we're doingokay.
And uh, you know, I'm I'm veryhappy about that.
SPEAKER_01 (35:34):
Yeah.
You know, it's like when we weresitting down to to have this
episode, I was thinking, why,what what is it that we could
talk about that would resonatewith these business owners?
And I do think that this is justone of those like sometimes my
number one tip or one of my bigtips for uh managing a website
(35:55):
is like if you're the businessowner, maybe you should delegate
that role to someone elsebecause the website it's like
requires so much effort.
Maybe you should give it tosomeone else because you're
already managing enough stuff.
But then when you have theseconversations with people, as I
as I've started to, it's like,oh man, they really they can't.
(36:16):
They have to do, they're doingso many things.
It's like they are down to rollup their sleeves, and the the
the jewelers that I know and thevendors that we know are just so
like this is their life, andthey're balancing it the best
that they can.
And I figured hearing whatyou've been kind of balancing as
well, and how you've beenmanaging to balance is
(36:38):
definitely something that'ssuper important and is super, I
think, relatable is definitelythe word where it's like, yeah,
these people are not just cold,heartless business people, you
know, they are humans that arebalancing, and it's like, yeah,
things could be going reallywell at uh work.
And then if things are not goingwell at home, then things are
(36:59):
just not going well overall, andvice versa, things could be
going well at home, and thenlike if you know the company's
doing poorly, like things arenot great overall.
Like, you need to balance thosekinds of things.
You have to have both.
And uh, I thought that getting achance to hear from your
perspective and someone thatI've been seeing uh kind of
balance it in real time.
Because I remember when Istarted here, man, you didn't
(37:20):
have any kids, and now you havethree.
So that's uh it's been cool towatch.
Very cool.
Cool.
SPEAKER_00 (37:25):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (37:26):
Well, Ross, maybe we'll wrap it up right there.
I think uh just a little bitmore of like an introspective
episode.
Um, I think that this is more oflike the business management
side of things.
It's not always all about, hey,like what projects are you
working on?
When are you upgrading yourstorefronts?
It's also how are you managingyour personal and and uh they
always talk about micro andmacro.
(37:46):
It's like, how are you handlingthe uh the macro end of things?
So it's uh great to hear uh fromyou as well.
Any final thoughts?
All good?
SPEAKER_00 (37:54):
Well, you know, just because this episode was a lot
about my uh, you know, sort ofpoints on my life, I just want
to say that uh for myself and onbehalf of Punchmark and behalf
of the industry, um, thank youfor being such a good host of
this podcast.
Um I can't even say, like everytime I'm you know, just talking
to someone at a trade showabout, you know, hey, yeah, Mike
(38:17):
is such a great host.
They're like, oh my gosh, he'sso good.
Like he cares so much.
He he's so he's so curious.
He he he asks the bestquestions.
Um, I was just talking to Johnfrom Client Book about that, and
he's like, oh, he's he's thebest.
So anyway, uh it's a it's a kindof uh you know mutual uh
perspective that that myself andthe industry has.
You mentioned earlier uh todaythat you know you like when
(38:41):
people are you know really youknow into what they do, and
you're one of those people,you're kind of a renaissance
man, you know, with your art andwith you know all the goals and
things that you set foryourself.
So I just want to tell you thatI'm really grateful for you
doing this podcast.
It's amazing.
I listened to so many of theseepisodes, and I'm just like,
what a great question! What agreat way to dig in.
(39:01):
So so thanks, Mike.
Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (39:02):
Thanks, man.
Oh, wow, that makes you feelreally good.
You know, I think we've beengoing for a while on this thing,
and I've told you, this is myfavorite part of my job, man.
I love this.
I can't believe I get paid toyap with people and hear about
their lives.
And in the end, I'm I'mhopefully bettering myself by
hearing other people's decisionmakings, and it gives me a lot
of really neat nuggets ofinformation that I bust out at
(39:25):
at trivia and at the bars allthe time when I tell them about
rhodium plating, and people arelike, oh my golly.
So I appreciate it, man.
That means a lot.
Uh yeah, we'll end it rightthere.
Thanks everybody.
Appreciate you all listening.
We'll be back next week, Tuesdaywith another episode.
Cheers.
Bye.
(39:46):
All right, everybody.
That's another show.
Thanks so much for listening.
This week my guest was RossCochram, CEO and co-founder of
Punchmark.
This episode was brought to youby Punchmark and produced and
hosted by me, Michael Burpo.
This episode was edited by PaulSuarez and music by you guessed
it, Ross Cochram.
Don't forget to leave usfeedback on punchmark.com slash
(40:09):
loop.
Leave us a five-star rating onSpotify and Apple Podcasts.
Thanks, we'll be back next weekTuesday with another episode.
Cheers.
Bye.
Welcome to In the Loop.
What is up, everybody?
My name is Michael Burpo.
Thanks again for listening to Inthe Loop.
This week I'm joined byPunchmark CEO and co-founder
Ross Cochran.
And Ross is my boss, but he alsojust finished a bit of a tour of
(00:22):
going to AGS and the Edgeworkshop and then comes back and
has to be a CEO again.
And we talk about the decisionof going to these events instead
of sending someone in his place,what it's like having to uh lead
a team of people without gettinginvolved in every single task,
and what that's been like overthe course of the years of going
(00:42):
from just a two-person companyto now, you know, over 20.
It's a really interestingconversation.
We have these recurring chatsoccasionally where we've uh
talked about the life of a CEO,and I hope to make it as
relatable as possible for otherpeople who are running
businesses and you know, whetherthat's small businesses or large
(01:02):
jewelry businesses.
I think it's a really goodconversation.
Switch things up a little bitand talk more about business
management as opposed to just uhjewelry.
I hope you enjoy.
Cheers.
SPEAKER_00 (01:15):
This episode is brought to you by Punchmark, the
jewelry industry's favoritewebsite platform and digital
growth agency.
Our mission reaches way beyondtechnology.
With decades of experience andlong-lasting industry
relationships, PunchMark enablesjewelry businesses to flourish
in any marketplace.
We consider our clients ourfriends, as many of them have
(01:35):
been friends way before becomingclients.
Punchmark's own success comesfrom the fact that we have a
much deeper need and obligationto help our friends succeed.
Whether you're looking forbetter e-commerce performance,
business growth, or campaignsthat drive traffic and sales,
PunchMark's website andmarketing services were made
just for you.
It's never too late to transformyour business and stitch
(01:57):
together your digital andphysical worlds in a way that
achieves tremendous growth andresults.
Schedule a guided demo today atpunchmark.com slash go.
And now back to the show.
SPEAKER_01 (02:16):
What's up, everybody?
My name is Michael Burpo.
I am joined by my boss, RossCochram, CEO and co-founder of
Punchmark.
How are you doing today, Ross?
Doing good, Mike.
How you doing?
So well.
I'm excited to have thisconversation a little bit more
open-ended.
Uh, you've been a busy beelately and been traveling
around, lots of trade shows, um,and then you come back and
(02:38):
things are waiting for you,ready to be done.
Uh, could you maybe recap?
I think it's probably the lasttwo weeks and what you've been
up to?
SPEAKER_00 (02:46):
Yes.
Um, so first we went to theConverge event, which is um sort
of a hybrid between AGS and GIA.
AGS is a conclave event, whichhas been going on for quite some
time, uh, basically since 1934.
They converged to uh sort ofsister organizations together.
(03:07):
They had it in Carlsbad,California, which is uh stone's
throw from GIA's campus.
Um and this time it was it waspretty much the same format as
most conclaves, um, with alittle bit more juice, so to
speak.
They had uh slightly moreinvolvement from Susan Jacques,
the uh CEO of GIA.
(03:28):
Um, and it is my favorite eventof the entire industry, and that
was awesome.
That was early September, um,and then followed by uh the Edge
conference in Shelton,Connecticut.
Um, and every year the Edge putson a sort of workshop slash
conference where they bring inabout a hundred retailers, um
(03:50):
they bring in all the partners,all the spokes of the wheel, so
to speak, uh to kind of you knowpromote themselves, announce,
you know, introduce themselves.
Um, and then they just go reallyhard with education.
Um, education, best practices,tips from technical stuff to
hiring and everything like that.
So um the partners, we only getfive minutes to talk there.
(04:13):
Um, but it's a really, reallygood event because there is
just, you know, it's one bigsort of wheel, like I said, and
it and everyone plays a part.
So people genuinely want to knowwhat you have to offer as a
partner.
Um, and then you kind of, youknow, schmooze a little bit and
and grab some wine and dinnerand stuff like that.
(04:33):
Um, so those are those arereally some very good events for
us to close out our year.
We're not doing any Octobertrade shows, um, but it was a
whirlwind, you know, just goingto both back to back.
SPEAKER_01 (04:46):
Yeah.
And you know, these the speakingcircuit, you know, going to
these events, and uh there areother CEOs that are doing this
as well.
And sometimes it's like, ah, I'msure, I'm sure it's difficult
for you to balance.
Why are we deciding to go tothese?
Because both of these actually,not selling events, purely
(05:06):
educational events.
Um, AGS, especially, is verymuch like you go there and
you're gonna educate and you'regonna give a talk about
something that you feel isimportant, and then the edge,
it's it's like a workshop, youknow?
It's very similar to ours.
You're gonna go and you're gonnatalk for yeah, five minutes,
cram as much in as you can, andthen it's just like be present,
schmoo a little bit.
(05:27):
What is it that you're trying toget out of actually just going
to a educational thing thatmakes it worth going to as a CEO
instead of you know, taking careof the home, the home field kind
of thing?
SPEAKER_00 (05:41):
Yeah, it's a good question.
Um, you know, I actually get alot more out of these
educational/slash networkingevents than the buying events.
And here's why.
Number one, um, you know, I knowa lot of people in the industry,
I have a lot of friends in theindustry, and I want to help my
friends.
So that's like phase one.
That's from I know Punchmark asa whole wants to help and we
(06:03):
want to educate, but for mypersonal uh sort of uh you know
point of view, um, I just wantto help as many of my friends as
possible because you know thisindustry is very much behind.
So that's square one for me.
But number two, um there's thethis when you go to a buying
show, there are these walls thatare up, right?
(06:25):
A lot of a lot of boundaries areup where retailers will even
walk around covering theirbadges up, right, with their
portfolios and whatnot.
And um, you know, at theseshows, it's so much different
because um everybody's guard isdown and you get to meet people
just to meet people.
And for me, Conclave andConverge, these are just as much
(06:48):
of an educational event for meas they are to the retailer
attendees.
So look at it as a kind of stateof the union on the biggest
retailers in the industry, thebiggest issues in the industry,
um, you know, from you know,anywhere from diamond grading
to, you know, ethical andsustainable points that people
are trying to make.
(07:08):
And so I'll go to sessions, youknow, I'll I'll go to sessions,
I'll go to panels, um, and notonly will I go to them, but I'll
also take part in um speaking atthem.
So I gain a lot there.
But the networking aspect ishuge.
I go to these shows just to be ahuman being.
I don't like to talk about work.
I don't like to talk about whatI do.
(07:29):
If someone asks me what I do, Ichange the subject and I talk
about, you know, like my kidsand make it personal, but also
ask them about their businessand I go to genuinely learn.
Um eventually it comes outbecause people are, you know,
interested in what we do atPunchmark.
But but that's the thing.
I I walk I get home and my brainis just completely sort of
(07:50):
rewired with you know what'swhat the industry is really
doing right now.
Um there was a panel on Gen Zand even Gen Alpha, you know,
like on what their take is onthe industry, millennials and
Gen Zs primarily, um hosted by apanel of Gen Z.
And it was very, veryinteresting.
I can't even tell you how manylittle mini arguments would
(08:11):
happen about lab growing versusnatural diamonds and things like
that.
It was kind of funny.
Became almost like political.
Um, but there was so much there.
So, so for those, you know, mymy initiative is, and then sort
of the self-serving aspect ofit, because you know, you got to
look at it like what's in it forus kind of thing.
You know, we we we know a lot.
(08:32):
We've been around the industry avery long time.
We've been uh in tech uh andmarketing a long time.
And so to get up there and notonly help our friends and help
the industry a little bit, itdoes peg us as you know an
authority on the subject.
And then when people arethinking about, hey, who do I go
to for a website or digitalmarketing, um, we go to
(08:52):
Punchmark.
So obviously that's sort of aside effect of you know doing
all the right things and justbeing up there, being ourselves
and talking about what we sortof nerd out about.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01 (09:03):
Mm-hmm.
You know, I I think that the onetrue thing I've found about this
podcast, but also just ingeneral, is I like people who
care about things and who arepassionate about things.
And what is cool is when you goto jewelry shows, well, I've
learned more often than not,even the people who play it
cool, uh, they're like thejewelry nerds, man.
(09:24):
And they love this stuff.
They love it.
And it's super cool getting achance to talk with some of
these people that they getreally into jewelry and talking
about, yeah, uh sourcing jewelryand trends and you know that the
age-old um argument of labversus nat right now and and
things like that.
And hearing you can actuallychange your business quite a
(09:48):
substantial amount based on someof these changes.
Um, I'm starting to like comearound to uh, for example, with
with charms.
Like I've I've started listeningand reading articles about uh
jewelry trends.
I'm starting to think like, ohman, maybe maybe charms are
having a thing.
I personally am not a fan ofwearing them, but it's like if
we start uh paying attention towhat's actually happening, a lot
(10:11):
of times, you know, like the oldsaying, ball don't lie.
If you can just go out there andtalk to people and look at data,
well, suddenly it's like lessabout your feelings, and
suddenly you can start makingthese uh objective decisions.
So you go to these things, is ituh are you talking to other CEOs
like vendor-to-vendor, or is itmainly vendor-to-retailer uh
(10:32):
sort of aspect?
SPEAKER_00 (10:33):
It's all over the place.
Um, and so what happens is, youknow, I was making an
observation, especially thistime, that you go to the shows
and you're rubbing elbows with,you know, retailers who are$25
million stores,$80 millionstores, um, and you're you're
looking at them like, wow, youknow, you're here, so you must
(10:57):
be awesome.
And what's cool about it is theylook at you the same way.
Whether you're a vendor, whetheryou're working at GIA, whether
you're a marketer, it doesn'tmatter who you are, they say,
wow, they're here, so they mustbe awesome.
And so what that does is it justlevels the playing field.
Everyone's operating at a veryhigh level, and we all just have
(11:17):
a very high mutual respect forone another.
So, you know, I'll talk to youknow, other CEOs, other
founders, other vendors,salespeople, uh, retailers,
next-gen retailers, sons anddaughters of huge retailers, um,
and then small, small mom andpop shops too, right?
Everyone has to be recertified.
Everyone's going for to upgrade,you know, their titles and keep
(11:40):
it up, you know, every year.
And a lot of times they have toretake certain exams, uh, they
have to make sure that they'reon the latest trends and
techniques and and to continuetheir education.
So no one is exempt from this inthe industry.
It doesn't matter how big or howsmall you are, or what corner
you play in.
SPEAKER_01 (11:58):
Is that kind of conversation?
Do you find that your path andyour journey is very unique?
So, like in the end, like whatis Punchmark?
We are a uh a SaaS-based techcompany.
Um, you know, we're essentiallyfully remote.
We have and we do websites.
That kind of puts us into thisvery unique niche of like only a
(12:21):
couple of companies.
Do you find that when you havethese conversations with other
CEOs or founders and they mightbe doing, I don't know, like
hardware or they're doing ummore maybe closer to the
consumer?
Are you finding that theirexperiences and their growing
pains are very different thanwhat we're experiencing?
Or do you find it's like, oh,you had to go over that hurdle?
(12:43):
Oh, we had to go over thathurdle uh as well.
SPEAKER_00 (12:46):
Yes, um, I do find a lot of similarities, especially
on sort of this side of theglass, so to speak.
You know, the other exhibitors,other vendors, other service
companies, you know, we find,you know, similar pain points
among you know how our retailersare doing, how our retailers are
growing and things like that.
For our unique perspective,we're a little bit different in
(13:10):
the sense that our uniquenessstems from the points where we
are, you if you look at theentire industry like a funnel,
you know, taking productdirectly from vendors through
the retailers directly to theconsumers, we have a unique
standpoint where and viewpointwhere we can see, we can play a
part in all of that, right?
(13:31):
We are creating and facilitatingrelationships between vendors
and retailers by having ourvendor uh premium vendor
program, products that areautomated on retailers'
websites.
Um, a lot of times retailerswill say, What's your buy-in?
Do you have stock balancing, etcetera?
And then, oh, wait, you're apremium vendor with punch mark.
Okay, I'm in.
And I'm very proud of the factthat we're helping facilitate
(13:53):
those relationships.
And then on the front end, we'reseeing and we're creating the
shopping experience of whatcustomers see, you know, our
retailers' customers.
And so we're looking at it froma unique vantage point because
we're able to see sort of a lotmore than other just B2B
companies.
Um, and so we have a uniqueperspective there, uh, whereas
(14:15):
someone might be hyper-focusedon like tools for the trade and
how the tools affect benchjewelers in that very specific
seat inside of a retail store.
Um, but I I always love to learnbecause you learn about you go
to a vendor who has like a verycomplex manufacturing process
and the ERP solution and allthese things from you know, like
(14:37):
people who I met a woman fromBrazil who does gemstones and
she's all in like the factoriesand everything else.
Uh, and then I met another guywho has this diamond company who
has videos of the rough videosof the polished uh and faceted.
And so, like you can follow thejourney of a diamond, and you
(14:58):
look at sourcing in an ERPsystem and you take a rough
diamond, and this rough diamondchanges like three times.
So in the beginning, you have arough diamond that you found,
right?
Or you you might you had someonemine, then you polish it.
Now it becomes different, butit's still the same rough
diamond, it has the same kind ofSKU.
Then you put it into a piece ofjewelry in a finished piece.
(15:18):
So now it has like threedifferent shapes, um, but it's
still the same thing that youcan track.
And that to me is just you knowvery fascinating as far as like
how something goes from you knowthe mind directly to you know
someone's finger as they wear iton a ring.
Um and that's that's a vantagepoint that that we don't get as
as tech and service companies,you know.
(15:40):
So I like to learn a lot.
I like to get down on the groundand learn what how they tick,
how these businesses operate.
But there are so many differentfacets of this industry, no pun
intended, um, and just watchinghow everything unfolds and
everyone works together andmeshes together.
SPEAKER_01 (15:56):
Yeah.
All right, everybody, we'regonna take a quick break and
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Thanks, and now back to theshow.
(17:39):
And we're back.
Yeah, there's a lot of stops.
Uh, that's what I've learned isthere's a lot of steps, and then
there's these side alleys, and Ialways think it's so funny.
Just at JCK.
I mean, we were in the we werein the basement, man, attacking
essentials.
We weren't even on the mainfloor, and that floor that we
were on is still the biggestshow I've ever been a part of.
(18:00):
And the fact that above us wasan even bigger show, just
absolutely madness.
And that's all everybody ismaking their business, you know,
selling shiny pieces of stoneand and expensive metals, and
we're all still kind of workingtogether.
Sometimes I feel like peoplemaybe don't want to work
(18:21):
together, they want to be likethe only solution.
And I'm like, I think it'sbetter if we are like coming
together as like a like asymphony, as opposed to having
our own individual kind ofriffs.
I think uh in punch mark, we'retrying to position ourselves as
this kind of facilitator alongthe way.
Uh, just you know, having workedwith you, um, I guess maybe we
(18:44):
can tease it right now.
One thing that's been reallyinteresting is with you gone,
would never hold this againstyou, you have to make the you
have to make the decision of isit better for the company and
yourself and all of us, becausein the end, as a CEO, you're
leading us, is it better to beout there doing those things,
which is speaking andfacilitating and being a part of
(19:08):
of the greater industry as awhole?
And with your with your brother,our CTO Brian, you guys went to
AGS and you guys had to make thedecision, okay, we're gonna be
gone for a couple of days and godo this.
But in the meantime, it's likeit's not for free.
You know, it's you guys arestill there's projects that I'm
like, all right, I gotta waituntil Ross and Brian come back
(19:29):
because I need you guys.
Uh, it's not like you're justonly making executive decisions.
Uh, as a smallish company, youknow, with 20 or so employees,
you have to be making thatdecision.
Um, that must probably weighheavily on you when you start to
decide (19:45):
am I going to go to these trade shows?
Am I going to skip?
Am I going to send someone in myplace?
Um, what's the uh calculus on adecision making like that?
SPEAKER_00 (19:56):
So it's very interesting you asked that
question because I'm at a prettybig crossroads uh in my life.
Um, the last couple of years,I've had a lot of uh, you know,
growing of my own as far as justas a leader, as a father, as a
as someone as an individual,someone who wants to think
(20:16):
about, you know, my next phaseof life and what I want to do
and how uh I want to spend mytime and things like that, um,
being present for my kids.
So looking at that whole thingas it pertains to me as an
individual and me as a leader inPunchmark, I learned that when I
leave and I sort of leave it upto you and the other directors
(20:40):
and middle middle leadership,it's the best thing I could ever
do.
And here's why.
If I stayed involved in mybusiness on a day-to-day for
every single little thing, um,I've never been above anything.
I'm, you know, almost uh guiltyof rolling up my sleeves a
little too much.
Um and and you know, I say thatjust because, you know, I I'll
(21:03):
do anything from being the CEOto being the janitor or
whatever.
It doesn't matter.
I I will never ask someone elseto do something that I myself
wouldn't do.
But this whole leading byexample thing um has become a
liability to me because whatends up happening is well, oh,
well, that's how Ross does it,so let's just let Ross do that
again.
Um, and so leading by leaving,right, is a different
(21:28):
perspective because what ends uphappening is the biggest
challenges and issues whileyou're absent, your team figures
it out and becomes autonomousand becomes stronger and becomes
empowered.
And so I am very keen on thisterm that I learned recently
through, you know, I'm kind of aTaoist at heart, but uh, this
term called invisibleleadership.
(21:50):
And I love this term.
I don't need to take credit foranything at all.
I don't need to take credit forit.
If anything, I'll take creditfor the people that we hired.
Um, but if anything goodhappens, the team gets and
deserves all the credit forthat.
If anything bad happens, I'mhappy to take the fall and take
credit for that.
And I I don't I don't say thisto to sound like a martyr or
(22:12):
something or to get respect forthat.
I don't, because I again I don'tcare about the credit.
Um, what this does is, you know,if you're an owner of a retail
jewelry store and you knowyou're the biggest sales
associate, you're the you know,the bench jeweler, the
accountant, the floor sweeper,the manager, everything else,
(22:33):
um, you're just going to workyourself into the ground, but
you'll never be able to scalethat business.
It's gonna be you, your name'son the awning, your name's
everything.
When customers come in, you'rethe person they ask for.
So that's what I like.
I like that I'm not the personthat everyone asks for.
I'm not the person, yeah, inwhen people say they call and
they say, Hey, can I talk toJason, our director of
(22:55):
education?
I'm like, Well, he's tied up.
Is there anything I could helpyou with?
They're like, No, I I want totalk to Jason, you know?
And I take pride in that.
I'm so happy that Jason, ourveteran employee for almost 15
years, um, is just killing it.
So, so anyway, to come back toyour question, when I leave and
(23:15):
I'm gone on the point of even avacation, or if I'm at a trade
show speaking and being on theon the sales floor, um I'm happy
that my team can handle things.
And I intentionally sometimesmake myself unavailable.
Um and when I get back, do Ihave a couple fires to put out?
Sure, always.
But I don't like let that youknow get to me and and and say
(23:39):
things like, You see why I couldnever leave, right?
Because that's like, so soanyway, that I'm very happy with
that uh that I've kind offigured that out on my own, of
you know, getting into thatlevel of what some people call
invisible leadership, letting myteam um just do their thing and
and let letting my team buildpunch mark where I'm just kind
(24:02):
of like in the background, youknow?
SPEAKER_01 (24:04):
Yeah.
You know, I think just like thismost recent one, it's it's
funny.
You so you you were away and uhand Brian was away.
Um so we've been working on thisoverhaul of our premium vendor
system, and uh it is you know, ahuge undertaking.
And it's kind of funny becausemy engineers, like the guys who
(24:24):
are building the things underthe like that I'm hopefully
directing, are the CEO and theCTO.
And then suddenly you guys are,you know, you guys were gone for
a couple of days.
Suddenly I'm like, oh wow, I'mso exposed.
Like, I don't know how to dothis thing.
And it it but then you have tofigure it out.
And there's a couple times likesomeone's like, hey, um, this uh
(24:46):
this vendor is showing no uh noprices, and it's like, oh,
that's really not good.
How do we fix this?
And it's just one of thosethings you have to you can
either say, oh, I'm gonna fix itin six days, or I'm going to fix
it myself and like dig a littlebit further.
And that's the kind of stuffthat I think a lot of leaders
sometimes have a hard time with.
(25:08):
Um, especially because we'rewe're punchmark, we're not, you
know, Ross Cochran and friendsor or you know, that kind of
thing, or or Ross and Ross andDan's website company.
We have to uh we I think thatthere's more of this ownership
from the rest of us onPunchmark.
Uh just yesterday, we have anall hands every Tuesday.
(25:30):
And one thing I was talkingabout, I try my best to share
with the company what the restof the what the field looks
like.
Because some of our employeesdon't go to trade shows.
Uh our developers don'ttypically go, and uh our CS reps
typ don't typically go.
And as a result, they might notknow what the field is looking
like and why we're doing some ofthese things.
(25:52):
But what's really cool is wesent out a vendor survey and we
got a whole bunch of really niceresponses back and like really
positive sentiments aboutpunchmark.
And then we are we ran somethingelse in jewelers helping
jewelers and we got all thisnice feedback.
And sometimes I think it's veryimportant for us to also share
the bigger picture and kind ofpass it down to the rest of the
(26:14):
company and explain to themlike, yeah, things are looking
really good.
Like, I feel really good.
Do you guys feel really good?
And then, like, kind ofexplaining to them, like, here's
why I'm feeling this.
It's not just optimism, it'salso data-driven insights on
where we and the industrystands.
You know what I mean?
On that, it's kind of likesharing the bigger picture,
(26:37):
which you guys have always beenvery transparent with me when
there was only eight of ussitting in a room.
And now, as we have started tosprawl and we have more people,
the big picture I feel is veryis tangentially related to what
you were saying about makingyourself unavailable and having
people figure themselves out aswell.
SPEAKER_00 (26:57):
Yeah, for sure.
Um, you know, we all kind ofneed to know what our where our
efforts are going, how we fitin.
And there's uh a team buildingexercise that I always wanted to
do uh with the team and sittingdown where everyone has like a
you know a square piece of paperand you draw uh like whatever's
in this little square.
And ultimately you put all thesquares together like post-it
(27:19):
notes on a board, and eachsquare becomes like a mosaic
tile of a bigger picture.
And and I like that exercise andjust what that depicts in the
sense that you know we havepeople working so intricately on
one very small, what seeminglysmall part of our platform or of
our system, of our communicationor our service uh process.
(27:42):
And just to hear, right, hearback from the big picture, like
wow, what we're doing, like whatyou said yesterday, Mike, um, is
you know, it's the thesentiment, the public sentiment
on Punchmark is very good rightnow.
And our team needs to hear that.
And, you know, you said this isbecause, right, um, our our CS
reps are getting really goodsurvey scores, and our
(28:04):
developers are rolling outreleases that matter, and you
know, our our vendor side isdoing this, and and so it and
our design team is doing this,right?
And and all that plays a bigrole.
So um thanks for shoutingeverybody out because it it is
important.
Like I said, you know, it's it'sthe team that's building punch
mark and making a hugedifference in this industry.
SPEAKER_01 (28:25):
Yeah, I don't know.
It's just the more I think aboutit, uh Punchmark as is being,
having been here for eight and ahalf years at this point, it's
it's pretty crazy to me.
Sometimes I think about likewhere were we when I started?
Um, you know, and we were sosmall.
There was there was eight ornine of us sitting in a room.
And I think the fact that youguys sat uh like six feet behind
(28:48):
me, and I could hear you guysmaking these bigger decisions
sometimes, and it was very, youknow, it wasn't this big like
voodoo thing.
It wasn't like, oh, like we'revision setting.
It was like, okay, we're gonnado this so that we can get there
a little bit faster.
And I think though I keep thatvery internalized, where it's
(29:09):
like, why are we spending allthis time overhauling the
premium vendor system when it'sjust like a small little aspect,
uh facet of our company?
And to me, it's just like youguys set the vision of well, if
we have a good vendor system,suddenly we become a crossroads
and we can start directingthings and start um getting
people buy-in from all aspectsof the company, and we become
(29:32):
the center.
And it's like when you start tobe able to see, we always talk
about like looking up from thesteering wheel.
Uh, that's kind of like a bigpart of it is we uh in the last
like maybe two years, we startedto look up from the steering
wheel and kind of drive into thedistance as opposed to uh, you
know, just building littlecomponents.
(29:54):
Now it's like, okay, how do weactually bring things together?
Which I think is a little bitmore fun, a little bit more
scalable.
Manageable, at least for me.
SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
Sure.
Yeah.
I know I always made that uh youknow point that as an owner, as
a technical owner, you'resitting there just like looking
down and and then you look upand say, Who's driving?
Oh, oh, I'm driving, and likeyou realize that your hands are
actually on the steering wheeland and you forget.
And that's the you know, the theoverused kind of words that you
want to work more on thebusiness than in the business.
(30:22):
Um, and so a lot of times as asmaller business, we weren't
able to do that as much.
And now I'm very proud to saythat we can, but it's all thanks
to our great team.
SPEAKER_01 (30:31):
Teamwork, man.
But let's talk about the otherkind of part of this, the other
team.
We had this conversation uh justabout one year ago, uh, where we
had uh talked about um you hadtaken like uh I think you're not
your first, but one of yourmidsummer vacations last year.
And you came back and you talkedabout what it was like taking a
(30:53):
break and and coming back andnot freaking out.
Um you are balancing travelingwhen it comes to you know going
all over the place.
There's tons of trade showsevery year, uh, and even more
for us because we're not justgoing to buying shows, we're
going to all the other ones too.
We also have our own our ownevents.
Uh how what's the the decisionsand like how do you balance
(31:15):
things with your own family?
Because I'm sure there was atime when we were we were all in
on just work, work, work all thetime.
But since then you've had uhsome kids and now you have to
balance uh them as well.
You can't go all in on one sideor the other, otherwise they
kind of might um not do as well.
How do you have to balance that?
(31:37):
Is that just a decision that youor a conversation you make with
uh with your wife?
SPEAKER_00 (31:42):
Yeah, I mean, sort of every day is is a balance,
right?
Every day you have to kind ofmake some micro decisions.
Um, you know, like uh today, um,you know, usually my wife picks
up my oldest son, he's sevenfrom elementary school, and
today I I need to pick him up.
And so I had to shift like acouple things around, minor
things.
I didn't have any meetingsplanned there, but um, but it's
(32:06):
it's a constant thing that youneed to kind of reshift.
I'm very, very lucky in thesense that my mother-in-law
lives with us, so it's we haveit, we we can do things that a
lot of other couples can't.
Um, and so that helps meprofessionally and personally on
so many levels.
Um, but one thing that'sinteresting is my wife and I
agreed that two kids, we're justgonna have two kids and that's
(32:28):
it, right?
And we agreed on that like whenwe first got married.
She is uh you know a sibling ofof two, right?
And I am a sibling of two, atleast in our main household
growing up.
Um and and so that was importantto us.
Like we can't have an onlychild, we need a balance.
And I remember saying the words,I can't have more than two kids
because I run a business.
(32:48):
And what I was really sayingwas, I can't have more than two
kids because my business runsme.
That's what I was really saying.
And so it's it's interestingthat we had a third uh bonus
baby.
I call him my gravy baby.
Um, and so now things havechanged a lot, and I can't even
(33:09):
say like how happy I am, notonly that we have another human
in the mix, but but that I'mable to do certain things.
And so all the decisions that wehave to make to kind of make up
for things like that, uh, we'rewe're not even in the mix of it
yet.
I mean, just wait till all thesekids are in sports and we're
just driving and soccer moms andbaseball dads and football.
(33:31):
Like it's gonna be a lot ofstuff, right?
So right now, only my oldest sonis playing baseball.
Um, and so I know at some pointit's gonna get what a lot of
parents call grueling, but alsothe kind of the best times of
our lives while we're parenting,right?
Yeah.
Um, and I wonder how that'sgonna play with all the
decisions we're gonna have tomake and like missing a little
(33:52):
bit of work here to go to abaseball game or practice or um,
and I know Brian, you know, mybrother, our CTO, he's going
through that a lot.
He with his oldest, he's 13.
Um, and so he had to miss to goup to a uh a baseball tournament
in Cooperstown with 83 otherteams.
And that like to me, that's likehow cool is that to be able to
(34:14):
do that?
And so imagine if Brian wasn'table to do it, if he wasn't
present for that, if he had, ohsorry, I gotta work, you know,
I'll let my wife take him.
Um, so anyway, I'm I'm I'm verylucky.
I'm very happy that I'm able todo a lot of the things I can do.
And a lot of that is from, youknow, because of the punch
(34:34):
martine, because mymother-in-law, and because my
wife is a rock star, she does somuch.
Um, I probably don't do enoughat home.
Yeah, I definitely don't doenough at home, right?
I I need to step it up and beCEO of the household, right?
So um, and I think a lot of dadsstruggle with that as well.
But, you know, balance iseverything, and there's there's
no such thing as a work-lifebalance.
(34:55):
It's the the word, the wordsdon't even make sense.
You're you're in one world andthen you're ripped from one
world and you go back intoanother world.
They're two separate lives.
And you have to figure out onhow to kind of see saw back and
forth between them and make eachwork for for each other.
You need to have be present foryour family and grow your family
and be there, but you also need,you know, to be to have a sense
(35:17):
of purpose, to be useful in acommunity or in an industry or
in a company.
Um, and obviously you got tomake some money.
So, you know, it's it's alwaysthat balance on how to work it
out.
And I think uh uh we're doingokay.
And uh, you know, I'm I'm veryhappy about that.
SPEAKER_01 (35:34):
Yeah.
You know, it's like when we weresitting down to to have this
episode, I was thinking, why,what what is it that we could
talk about that would resonatewith these business owners?
And I do think that this is justone of those like sometimes my
number one tip or one of my bigtips for uh managing a website
(35:55):
is like if you're the businessowner, maybe you should delegate
that role to someone elsebecause the website it's like
requires so much effort.
Maybe you should give it tosomeone else because you're
already managing enough stuff.
But then when you have theseconversations with people, as I
as I've started to, it's like,oh man, they really they can't.
(36:16):
They have to do, they're doingso many things.
It's like they are down to rollup their sleeves, and the the
the jewelers that I know and thevendors that we know are just so
like this is their life, andthey're balancing it the best
that they can.
And I figured hearing whatyou've been kind of balancing as
well, and how you've beenmanaging to balance is
(36:38):
definitely something that'ssuper important and is super, I
think, relatable is definitelythe word where it's like, yeah,
these people are not just cold,heartless business people, you
know, they are humans that arebalancing, and it's like, yeah,
things could be going reallywell at uh work.
And then if things are not goingwell at home, then things are
(36:59):
just not going well overall, andvice versa, things could be
going well at home, and thenlike if you know the company's
doing poorly, like things arenot great overall.
Like, you need to balance thosekinds of things.
You have to have both.
And uh, I thought that getting achance to hear from your
perspective and someone thatI've been seeing uh kind of
balance it in real time.
Because I remember when Istarted here, man, you didn't
(37:20):
have any kids, and now you havethree.
So that's uh it's been cool towatch.
Very cool.
Cool.
SPEAKER_00 (37:25):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (37:26):
Well, Ross, maybe we'll wrap it up right there.
I think uh just a little bitmore of like an introspective
episode.
Um, I think that this is more oflike the business management
side of things.
It's not always all about, hey,like what projects are you
working on?
When are you upgrading yourstorefronts?
It's also how are you managingyour personal and and uh they
always talk about micro andmacro.
(37:46):
It's like, how are you handlingthe uh the macro end of things?
So it's uh great to hear uh fromyou as well.
Any final thoughts?
All good?
SPEAKER_00 (37:54):
Well, you know, just because this episode was a lot
about my uh, you know, sort ofpoints on my life, I just want
to say that uh for myself and onbehalf of Punchmark and behalf
of the industry, um, thank youfor being such a good host of
this podcast.
Um I can't even say, like everytime I'm you know, just talking
to someone at a trade showabout, you know, hey, yeah, Mike
(38:17):
is such a great host.
They're like, oh my gosh, he'sso good.
Like he cares so much.
He he's so he's so curious.
He he he asks the bestquestions.
Um, I was just talking to Johnfrom Client Book about that, and
he's like, oh, he's he's thebest.
So anyway, uh it's a it's a kindof uh you know mutual uh
perspective that that myself andthe industry has.
You mentioned earlier uh todaythat you know you like when
(38:41):
people are you know really youknow into what they do, and
you're one of those people,you're kind of a renaissance
man, you know, with your art andwith you know all the goals and
things that you set foryourself.
So I just want to tell you thatI'm really grateful for you
doing this podcast.
It's amazing.
I listened to so many of theseepisodes, and I'm just like,
what a great question! What agreat way to dig in.
(39:01):
So so thanks, Mike.
Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (39:02):
Thanks, man.
Oh, wow, that makes you feelreally good.
You know, I think we've beengoing for a while on this thing,
and I've told you, this is myfavorite part of my job, man.
I love this.
I can't believe I get paid toyap with people and hear about
their lives.
And in the end, I'm I'mhopefully bettering myself by
hearing other people's decisionmakings, and it gives me a lot
of really neat nuggets ofinformation that I bust out at
(39:25):
at trivia and at the bars allthe time when I tell them about
rhodium plating, and people arelike, oh my golly.
So I appreciate it, man.
That means a lot.
Uh yeah, we'll end it rightthere.
Thanks everybody.
Appreciate you all listening.
We'll be back next week, Tuesdaywith another episode.
Cheers.
Bye.
(39:46):
All right, everybody.
That's another show.
Thanks so much for listening.
This week my guest was RossCochram, CEO and co-founder of
Punchmark.
This episode was brought to youby Punchmark and produced and
hosted by me, Michael Burpo.
This episode was edited by PaulSuarez and music by you guessed
it, Ross Cochram.
Don't forget to leave usfeedback on punchmark.com slash
(40:09):
loop.
Leave us a five-star rating onSpotify and Apple Podcasts.
Thanks, we'll be back next weekTuesday with another episode.
Cheers.
Bye.
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