June 24, 2025 • 48 mins
Kyle Pancis from Gems by Pancis shares the fascinating world of fancy colored diamonds, revealing how a royal connection in Belgium launched his family's 30-year specialty business. His insider perspective offers rare glimpses into the value, cutting techniques, and origin stories behind some of the world's most exclusive gemstones.
Learn more about Gems by Pancis here: https://www.gemsbypancis.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to In the Loop.
What is up everybody?
My name is Michael Barpo.
Thanks again for listening toIn the Loop.
This week I have Kyle Pantasonfrom Gems by Pantas and he is a
specialty dealer in fancydiamonds and it's a really cool
(00:22):
conversation.
Normally I structure theseinterviews in kind of a linear
fashion, meaning I start withlike their introduction and then
we kind of flow through theseconversations and I sort of
bring up these topic points.
For this one, I had met Kyle atthe client workshop a month and
a half ago at this point and atthe time I was like man, I
don't know anything about thistopic.
(00:43):
I would love to have himexplain to me more about these
colored diamonds and the processof them and kind of like the
world of dealing them.
It's a really interestingconversation.
I basically just threw everyquestion I had about the topic
at him and he filled themperfectly.
I would really recommend thisone.
This is a very interestingconversation.
(01:03):
Kyle's great on the mic.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
So I hope you enjoy Cheers.
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(02:00):
Slash go.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
And now back to the show.
What is up everybody?
My name is Michael Burpo.
Thanks again for listening to.
In the Loop I'm joined by KylePantus with Pantus Gems how are
you doing?
Or Gems by Pantus how are youdoing today, kyle?
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Pantus Gems.
Gems by Pantus.
I'm doing great.
How are you, michael?
Thanks for having me on here.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
So excited to get a chance to speak with you again.
We met at the Punch Bar ClientWorkshop where you were one of
the sponsors and gave apresentation, and I really
enjoyed your presentation allabout colored diamonds and kind
of the world of colored diamonds.
It was very educational.
It wasn't just here's, you know, this cool diamond, this cool
(02:46):
diamond, it was more about likethe, the story of them, uh, is
colored diamonds specificallywhat you work in?
yes, that's been our uhspecialty for 20 plus years,
actually 30 plus years and sotell me, tell me about gems by
pantsis and uh, it sounds likeyou guys have a pretty exciting
uh origin story.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yeah, so company.
My dad came into the businessin the late like mid to late
seventies I always say 76.
I think the official start waslike 82 with the company.
But he was already in thebusiness, in the trade doing
business before that.
Started as a young young, 19year old, 20 year old out of
college, started working retailat Mel Arts it used to be a
(03:24):
chain operation down inBaltimore Started learning.
He was selling diamonds overthe counter bridal rings fell in
love with the business, alwaysknew he wanted to be in the
industry from a kid and soeventually he kind of started
off on his own and kept divingfurther and further into the
trade and built a business withmy mom essentially.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Amazing.
And what's the story behind theKing of Brussels?
I was reading your guys aboutpage.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
I was like, yeah, I can't be real, what is that
about?
So so that was so.
Get started a couple years intothe business.
You know, everybody as anentrepreneur is always trying to
figure out new ways to inventthemselves and figure things out
Right.
And so in the beginning he wasselling and all sorts of
different loose diamonds.
And by 1985 ish, 86, he waslike looking to expand into more
(04:16):
sourcing overseas.
And my great uncle was theKing's journalist.
And wow, that's cool.
Kings journalists and wow,that's cool.
Yeah, it was really cool story.
And so he had asked mygrandfather at the time, or my
grandmother, to write thisletter in German to to my uncle,
kurt, who I'm actually namedafter.
(04:36):
Ironically, it's kind of verycool.
I don't think I've told thatstory when I met you a couple
weeks back, but anyway.
So he writes this letter andsays in the story when I met you
a couple weeks back, but anyway, so he writes this letter, he
says, okay, go on this such andsuch plane, meet me in Brussels,
in Antwerp.
So he flew over there.
This is way before technologyand all that good stuff.
He picked him up on the tarmacoff the plane and brought him
(04:56):
straight to the king's palace.
He had the whole experiencemeeting the king.
It was pretty like an incrediblestory from a young man's
perspective.
I King it was.
It was pretty like anincredible story from a young
man's perspective.
I think he was like, you know,maybe late twenties, early
thirties.
At that point, early thirties,I would say, and uh, kind of
really cool story.
And went there on business,said hey, I want to, you know,
(05:18):
get more involved into thediamond trade.
This is what we're doing herein the United States.
And lo and behold, heintroduced my father to some of
his personal cutters that he wasworking with in Antwerp and one
of the gentlemen's name wasHarry Polakevich.
It's, I guess, a famous guy atthe time in the trade.
He was cutting, like you know,all these like blue diamonds and
colored diamonds.
My dad had no idea about any ofthis stuff.
It was all new to him at thetime and that was kind of his
(05:41):
quick, you know, intro to thatworld and the network kind of
just built out from there.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
That's so cool.
I love sometimes those weirdmeetings and the fact that
people can offer you such a Idon't want to say a leg up, but
more like can offer you like abackstage pass.
And what I always think aboutis it's really a lot of what you
make of the opportunities whenthey're given to you, because
very easily you could take abackstage pass and it's just a
(06:08):
cool story and you know there'sthat.
But making the connectionsbecause you know, if I was to
say, if you're an aspiringmusician and I give you a
backstage pass to like a, youknow, jay-z concert or something
like that like theoretically,there's a world where you could
make these great connectionsthat change your life.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
There's also another world where you just go and you
have a great time backstage pass, and then there you go, you
know well and so and so the theconnection started and then he
started importing color diamondsand working with the argyle
mine already back in the 80s andrunning in-store programs.
And it was it was so new to themarketplace like selling a
color diamond to the consumereven today is kind of difficult.
(06:46):
But it's easier now, obviously,with all of the marketing
that's gone behind the wholeproduct line.
But back 30 years ago you couldbarely even sell these things.
Right, it was a very difficultproduct to sell.
Nobody understood it, nobodyknew it.
They only knew white diamonds.
That was the only thing peopleknew, because the beers and the
marketing and the industry wassolely around bridal white
diamonds for a hundred yearsprior, right.
(07:08):
So so you know, as a, as anentrepreneur, even even as a gen
two for myself, about 10 yearsago, my dad had kept.
My dad always told this storyand I'm like you know 10, you
know 10 years ago, I'm 12 yearsin the business.
I'm like new in the trade, I'mlike trying to.
You know, I'm traveling theroad like old school sales guys
are still today.
I mean, it's kind of like aninteresting breed that still
(07:29):
exists in the trade and I'mdriving around the country,
slaving away, trying to figureout how to make a living, trying
to do like everybody else inthe business and in other
businesses, not just solely thediamond jewelry industry and I
just keep hearing my dad tellingthe story and, like you said,
it's like what you do with thisconnections and how you build
from it.
Right, and as a company, wewere always focused on the color
category and I continue to hearthe story and one day I'm like
(07:52):
in the one night, of course,it's always the shower.
I am in the shower and I'mthinking about this whole thing.
Pants is gems, color diamondshere's the story and I'm like
this story needs to be glorified.
We need to expand this becausewhen you're in the moment in
business, you never realize whatyou're actually sitting on
until you look at it hindsight,2020, right, and then you start
to, you know, sensationalizesomething of what is a reality,
(08:16):
but in your own reality youdon't really think of it, like
you're saying.
And so I say you know what weneed to rebrand the company.
You know we didn't change thelegal stuff pants, gems
incorporated is still pens, gemsincorporated.
But like let's rebrand, let'sdo gems by pants nobody cuts a
gem like gems by pants, right,and let's just focus on this
exclusive color diamond market.
Go a little higher end, buildout some cool products and and
(08:37):
bring it to market.
And um, again, it's you.
You take a story, you take anexperience, you take a situation
and um, take an experience, youtake a situation and in my
dad's view he kind of just thatwas his story, that was his life
, right, it's his experience.
And in my world I was like howdo we sensationalize the shit
out of this thing and make itcool?
Because that's really what themarketing, that's what marketing
(08:59):
business is all about, right,and it is very cool.
History.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
It's about, yeah, like the the angle on these
kinds of things, and I thinkmaybe this kind of connects
really well into into coloreddiamonds and talking about them
a little bit more, just becauseI I'm down to geek out about
these things.
If you are, it's one of thosethings, and I don't want to.
I don't want to get rid of themagic, but I do kind of want to
talk a little bit about likethese diamonds.
(09:25):
So the one I'm hesitant aboutis I sometimes feel like the
marketing has almost jumped theshark and they're like salt and
pepper diamonds, and then I'mjust like those are just, you
know, those are the worstdiamonds, and I kind of think,
you know, maybe worse is aterrible way to frame them.
One thing I always wonder,though, is I could tell you what
(09:46):
that is yeah I could say freelywhat I want on here, right, of
course, absolutely let it rip,because it's you're the business
owner and in the end, I'm justyou know it's, I gotta be me.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
That's anyone who knows me in the trade.
That's what it is.
You get what you get, so saltand pepper diamonds.
Right here you have a miningoperation that's getting all
these goods and they're cuttingthem and they're it's shit,
literally.
However, there's beautiful shitout there, right, you can
glorify anything and turn itinto something good, and
essentially, all they did wasthey took worthless material in
(10:20):
the fine gemstone world is whatit's classified as worthless.
I mean, it's what it is.
It's diamonds with a lot ofinclusions in it, right, and
they just kind of made it coolsalt and pepper.
And they mounted up in some coolyellow gold and took some
Instagram Etsy pictures and loand behold with the, with the
power of Instagram and socialmedia they're kind of cool and
it's cool.
And so you're making thissegment of like really
(10:48):
inexpensive diamond jewelry.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
That fits a market.
There's a market for it.
But it kind of almost remindsme of, uh, for example, um, you
know oxtail, you know the thecut of meat oxtail.
So it's, uh, it used to beconsidered just almost like a
throwaway style but, um, a lotof cultures were eating it and
it was kind of like this supervaluable, really flavorful spot.
But what's so funny is thenagain it almost like goes beyond
(11:11):
where it was and then suddenlyoxtail soup is like considered
like this high level and then ittakes the price of oxtail, all
like the you know folks thatwere eating it as like a value
cut.
Suddenly they're all like damnlike these.
These michelin star restaurantsare buying up all the oxtail.
Now oxtail is you know this muchper pound as opposed to what it
(11:33):
was when it was cheap and Isometimes yeah, I sometimes
wonder if that's what kind ofhappens sometimes with diamonds
and I was wondering if is therea way to kind of look through
those things, like and see, isthere more than just the, the
four c's of diamonds when itcomes to these things that
you're looking at, because inthe end I mean the diamond
(11:53):
colors, is this spectrum?
I'm sure that there's everycolor of the spectrum but, like,
is there something you'relooking at that makes it a more
valuable one on there?
Speaker 3 (12:03):
well, yeah, so creating a commercialized
product line, because there'ssegments of our products that we
, you know you want to have acommercialized price points to
this and that you know you'rejust kind of looking for a nice
looking stone that can stillcarry the story.
If it's a price point, you putin a nice piece of jewelry or
design, something fun around itand it is what it is.
(12:24):
Like someone coming in andspending $2,000 on a piece,
you're still going to getsomething that's one of a kind
in the color diamond category.
It's true, right, it's not alet me blow smoke up your ass
type of tagline.
It is true, I can't duplicatethat piece.
I can make a similar style withanother similar stone, but that
particular stone one of a kind.
So, another similar stone, butthat particular stone one of a
(12:47):
kind.
So, yeah, that is true.
And then, when it comes to thehigher end, there's only so many
of these types of stones in themarketplace, right?
Just follow one character fancyping, for instance.
There might be 10 in the wholeworld on the live market right
now.
Maybe there's some in privatecollections that aren't
publicized or not on the marketper se, right?
So again, you're going into adifferent type of product,
(13:07):
different price point and even adifferent customer.
So when you're presenting thattype of product, you're, you're
coming in there with all thiscool education and cool
presentation to allow them tofully understand what they're
getting into.
And most of the time theyalready understand it because
they've done their own researchand they kind of have a desire
for it so that's the kind ofclientele too.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah, yeah and that's exactly.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
They want something that somebody else can't have,
and here there's one of 10 in inthe market right now.
Right a couple years ago,during covid, I remember flying
out to this, this gentleman'shouse, uh, that was introduced
to me through a retailer.
We did the deal together and Isold them like a seven carat
intense yellow.
I think it was IF kind of cool.
I think there was only oneother one for sale in the world,
(13:48):
on the market, so I was able totell him that and I wasn't
blowing smoke up his butt, youknow, I was telling him the
truth created a really coolexperience, made a really cool
piece and is, you know, veryhappy to spend the money.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
That's really interesting.
What are there?
Times, though, when people arelike they want this and they
almost work themselves into acorner where there's like, like
you said, there's only two outthere, or is there are there
opportunities?
Or times when you're workingwith a client they're like I
really wanted to have thesespecs and you're like, well,
unfortunately that doesn't existright now.
(14:20):
Does that ever okay, uh?
Speaker 3 (14:21):
happen, it happens.
Yeah, I'm actually working.
Actually, it's funny.
You said that I met withsomebody in vegas two weeks ago.
He gave he gave me a project towork on uh, a particular shape,
in a particular color and aparticular weight.
He says he's been working onthis for four years.
Hasn't been able to closeanything.
Of course I may.
You know, I'm in, I'm close tothe diamond trade and the supply
(14:42):
chain, so I'm able to, throughmy network of people, able to
source a particular stone insomeone's collection and I'm
able to present it now to thestore.
Right?
So now he's going to take theinformation, present it to the
client and hopefully make a nicetransaction, and that's going
to be retail will probably beover half a million dollars.
Wow, that's incredible.
Again, it takes time for thesethings to happen and you have to
(15:05):
have the tenacity and theendurance and and all that stuff
to to see it through.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
It sounds like you're almost kind of like, um, uh,
it's like more along the linesof like a, like a, like a rare
beast hunter or something likethat, where it's like there's
only so many of them out there,so many of them out there, right
.
I follow this one guy on uh onyoutube and every now and then
he pops up on my uh through thealgorithm and it's this guy who
sells private jets and the price, yeah, the private jet stuff is
(15:34):
so interesting because what'sfascinating is he already knows
who's on the other line, even ifthey obfuscate it, because the
number of people.
You send me his instagram please.
Yeah, I definitely 100.
But he's like uh, you knowthey're selling this stuff for
several million, you knowhundreds of millions of dollars
and there's only so many peoplethat can pay for it and there's
(15:55):
only this many billions, uh,billionaires in the world, and
he's like, if this person, ifthis jet, is being interested
and it's like a real interest,then it's one of these.
You know 50 people, right?
Is that is the community forthese fancy stones?
Is it that tight-knit, like youkind of know everybody that's
out there, or are there?
Speaker 3 (16:14):
like these flyers that come in and out.
It's tight, you, you, youpretty much get to know a lot of
the people that are in it andyou just take notes and try to
learn what's there and and thenagain it's all who gets the
business, who gets the call?
You know, it's always.
It's always the same type ofscenario.
There's 50 million millionairesin the world, right?
How many 50 millionmillionaires can afford the jet?
(16:35):
Yeah, exactly.
Well, 1 million isn't going todo it, right?
Maybe 50.
That's still kind of cutting itclose, still kind of cutting it
close.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
What about is there?
Is there any value in likedealing in, for example, like
uncut fancy gems?
Because, like you were saying,like there's only so much, and
you were in your presentationyou were talking about like the
sourcing of these things, andthen you have a you know an ace
up your sleeve with knowing someof these cutters.
Is that like your way of kindof getting more or less a leg up
(17:07):
on some of this, this business,by having those two separate
components, which is the roughcut and a cutter that you know
can do an excellent job?
Is that something that is likean angle you can work?
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:18):
so.
So there is part of that.
Everybody that's got a goodcutter like an angle you can
work.
Yeah, so there is part of that.
Everybody that's got a goodcutter has an angle right.
The interesting thing about thediamond world like if I buy a
stone that's finished right andI can see that there might be a
color increase or a potentialupgrade on the stone, you know,
maybe the last guy's cutterdidn't see it, maybe my cutter
did, and vice versa.
(17:39):
Maybe there's a project thatI'm working on that I can't
complete right.
Then I sell the stone because,like I don't, I don't see any
more upside.
I'm also just sell the stone.
I have it right.
I can make some money.
Next guy can take it and dowhat they want.
Maybe the next guy buys it fromme and his cutter sees it
differently and they're able tocut it.
So it's kind of like there's ascience behind it.
It's a, it's a real form of art, um.
(18:01):
So yeah, that's a, that's apart of the trade.
Uh, buying rough is.
Buying rough is interesting, isan interesting scenario.
We just started this yearreally buying a lot more um out
of canada and um, it's kind ofcool.
I think.
If you, if we wanted to, I canget stones cut overseas, in
india, let's say, for 150 to 100dollars a carat.
(18:23):
Right, that's what.
That's what they cut, you know,cost me per carat, which is
cheap.
But my guy that's local to me,that I use for other higher end
stuff, might charge me more.
But again, I can kind ofcontrol the way the, the end
result's going to be in terms ofhow the stone's going to be
shaped, the, since you know thescintillation, the brilliance of
it.
Like we kind of really are ableto just have more control of
(18:44):
maximizing the potential, whichmakes, in my opinion, a prettier
stone, which allows you to havea premium on the market more
upside, and, of course, itdifferentiates yourself from
everyone who's just cuttingstones in India.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Wow, it's so fascinating to me.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I see.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I apologize for this not being a very linear
conversation.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
It's very much it's like hey, I'm really interested
in this.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
I'd love you just to explain everything to me.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Here's another one.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Uh, for example, I follow this guy on on again a
different guy on YouTube.
He's, uh, I think it's Ari, uh,ari, the gem guy.
So he he a lot of the time he'sworking in New York and he buys
stuff over the counter and hesells stuff in lots.
And so how often are you buying?
Are you typically buying thesefancy stones, um, in singles, or
(19:30):
do you?
You is there an opportunity tobuy in lots and lots?
I, at least.
For me, what I think lots meanis like parcels, that's, I think
, actually the more of the term.
So do you?
Is that like kind of an angle?
Does that increase the value oris that actually?
It seems like when you'reselling a parcel, a lot of times
the price is actually comingdown because they're in in
(19:51):
groups.
It doesn't seem like itactually behooves you to do that
yeah, so.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
So if I buy in parcels, you're gonna get you're
gonna get a discount on theprice per carrot which allows
you to average cost, right.
You're always going to haveexcess material out of that
parcel, even if it's polishedgoods.
That are going to be your dogsand your winners, right?
So then you're able to takeyour winners, maximize your
profit and then you do what youcan with the dogs, right?
So there's that angle.
(20:16):
We do buy stuff like that,depending on what it is, and
then in the higher end stuff,like a lot of times I'm getting
leads from stores, clients thatown stuff for 20 years, 10 years
, 15 years, whatever that wantto sell.
I just actually boughtsomething last week off of an
auction house, which was kind ofcool.
There was an opportunity to buysomething off auction, so I
(20:38):
paid even the auction there.
You, you know, buyer fee orwhatever it was, you know, still
okay, it's still a retail typeof deal, but you know there's
value there.
I saw opportunity and I, youknow I hit the strike, the
strike, as they say, um, sothings come from all over the
place for us.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Yeah, mainly because I was thinking about, for
example, there's this one watchcompany, which I won't even
mention, uh, that does a rainbowwatch and, you know, has
rainbows right around the bezeland it's.
I mean, it's just incredible,yeah, yeah.
And what I always think about,any time I see it, is man, that
(21:16):
must be so hard to get a parcelthat is the full spectrum,
because undoubtedly you're goingto have, like you know, 90% of
it.
And then it's like, okay, Ineed a stone that sets in
between this color red and thiscolor orange, because that's the
way the spectrum works.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Well, and in their case, in the gemstone world in
particular, it's a little easierto cut the material.
In the gemstone world inparticular, it's a little easier
to cut the material, so it'sit's a little easier to mass
produce that a little bit morein volume than it would be in
the color diamond world.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Oh, interesting, I didn't even notice.
I didn't know that that wouldbe a there'd be you know a level
, a degree of difficultycompared to it.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
I mean there's.
I mean it's not easy.
Like it still takes time tocolor match these rainbow color
gemstones.
Like it's definitely a thing,but like if you have a supply
chain for it, like it's thematerials there so I guess I
mean that ties in very well withum, these names.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
So obviously there's champagne, diamonds, which are
slightly yellow, um, and thenthere's, I mean this argyle.
Argyle pink is, I think, whatyou're most well known for, or
at least what I've seen from you.
Yeah, how is there a, is therea determination or kind of like
a rule set around these colorsthat makes it this and not that?
(22:34):
Because, for example, like, howdo you know it's argyle pink
and not red and how do you knowit's not?
Speaker 3 (22:40):
you know white with like a little bit of pink, most
of the reds are actually most ofthe reds that exist in the
world, all of a few hundred ofthem.
All come mostly from the argylemine.
There's a few that exist outthere that are from a brazilian
mine, um, but most are argyle um.
So what you're going to see inpinks in particular is you have
(23:02):
like a type one and a type twotype material, right.
So argyle type two, type two, amaterials are going to typically
be outside of the argyle mine.
It would be more of like aSouth African mine, south
American mine.
They're going to be larger insize and they're going to be
more pastel-y in color, right,they're going to be larger in
size and they're going to bemore pastelly in color, right,
(23:23):
they're going to be more of apastelly pink where the Argyle
mine had a nitrogen richenvironment, and these stones
are typically going to besmaller in size but very, very
vibrant in color, like very,very rich pink, very rich red,
right.
So that's that's kind of themain to to distinguish from an
Argyle pink versus a non-Argylepink.
(23:43):
Then you have, like yourRussian material, right?
Russia was very known for liketheir purple diamonds, right.
So like a lot of the purplishpinks or those that type of
material it could be.
Most of the time is going to befound out at, like Russian,
russian mining operations.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Oh, that's so fascinating that they're to me.
Honestly, I just kind ofassumed that it was like, yeah,
they got this diamond mine andmost of them come out white.
Some of them come out, you know, a different color, but there's
more.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
There's more scientific testing that you can
do to like to test the material,to really confirm all that
stuff.
But most of the time, like thetrained eye, like if I loop a
stone from from, uh, from, let'ssay, a purplish pink from
russia, right, like it'stypically going to be, like a
more grainy diamond than, let'ssay, an argyle stone like or
non-argyle stone.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
You know, you could see, you could just see the way
the crystal is on the materialsthat from where it's basically
coming from in the world, kindof interesting so, when it goes
to the color, is there like, uh,it has to be this color, this
level of saturation, to beconsidered a red diamond,
because obviously calling it ared diamond, and then someone
takes a look at it and they'relike, ah, man, that ain't red.
(24:51):
Is there like a grading processand it has to meet a certain
criteria?
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Yeah, so there's a color spectrum wheel and GIA
uses that very stringently whenit comes to grading in their
laboratories.
But when you get red, let's sayyou get a fancy red.
You're looking at that stone,you're like, damn, that thing's
red.
Right, that's kind of how thatwould work, right.
And then when it knocks out ofthat realm, you can have like a
(25:19):
purplish red, you can havebrownish red, you can see red,
brownish, brownish red is thething.
Values are obviously verydifferent between a pure red and
that.
Purplish reds are a little bitless typically, but still
expensive.
And then when you go into thepink category on the color
spectrum, you have your fancylight, fancy fancy intense,
(25:41):
fancy deep and fancy vivid andthose saturation.
That saturation is is what theycall the saturation right and
the hue of the stone, and youcan see just kind of the
richness of what that looks likein the item really interesting
and yeah, I mean we always lovetalking about, you know, the
showstopper centers.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
What's the uh, what's the market like for, for
example, from, for melee?
You know like, uh, for thesesmall you're talking about,
argyle typically producessmaller stones and yeah, it's so
funny, I, I you say smaller andI'm like, ah, probably only
three quarters of the carrot,but it might be more like you
know one, yeah, yeah, onepointers one and a half pointers
, those are small melee a lot oftimes we're using that and the
(26:21):
accent stones is for thediamonds um, there's a market
for it.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
I mean, we're always shipping out melee, uh, for
custom rings, custom deals.
Um, and again, the same thingcarries true with the, with the
melee.
When you have like a vivid pinkmelee or you know an intense
pink, five pointer, for instance, could be like 30 to 40,000 a
carat depending on the size andall that, right.
So you know, like, for instance, last year we did a deal with
(26:47):
the store custom ring sevenpointers.
I think it was like a.
It was like a 40, $50,000 deal,all said and done in the ring,
just melee, wow, that's so crazyto think about.
And then we had it certified.
They wanted like a color cert,so like it was to think about.
And then we had it certified.
They wanted like a color search.
So like it was, it was a fullpresentation to the consumer and
that's and and everyone lovedit, are they?
Speaker 1 (27:07):
typically in.
They have like an end goal withthese pieces already mapped out
like ready to be set,essentially, or are they buying
the stones and then they'regoing to figure out what to do
with them based on what they buy?
Speaker 3 (27:19):
well.
So in this case they alreadyhad something in mind.
So we kind of backed into thewhole thing saying, okay, if you
want this end design like thisis what we need to do, this is
what's available, take it orleave it.
That was essentially how thatplayed out, um, and then in
other cases, yeah, there's mostof the time you, you know,
sometimes you buy stone and thenyou design around it.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, that's a very common thing in the in the
process sometimes, because youknow, when I, when I paint, I
start with the most interestingsubject.
I usually start from the centerand I build out, and I think
that's kind of how, a lot oftimes, how jewelry is done.
However, uh, it almost to me, Ithink what I would probably do
is just like design the wholepiece and then it's like
(28:02):
whatever you get for the centeris what the center is going to
be, but I can see how that mightfluctuate depending on.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
It could be a problem with these rare one of a kind.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
I can only imagine man.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
I just sold a blue diamond out of one of our
finished rings this year andit's like, now I have this
beautiful ring with a hole inthe center.
The hole in the center, whatthe hell am I gonna put in there
, you know?
And it's like you got 10 grandwrapped up in this thing and
it's us it's like, well, I mightjust sit on that for five years
before I find the perfect stoneto go in there.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah, one last question I guess I mean that.
That begs a great, uh, a greatquestion how often are you
locked up with these stones?
When you're dealing with theseproducts that, can you know,
range, crazy prices?
I'm sure that you see thesethings come around.
It's like, oh, it was too goodof a deal for me to pass up.
But now you've got to move itand I know enough about dealing
(28:58):
things that sometimes you have astinker that you know was going
to be a winner, and then youknow you can only have so much
of your cash flow locked upbefore it becomes a problem.
Is that something like whenyou're dealing?
Is it like you're almost doingconsignment from one place to
the other until it eventuallyconnects and then it just sort
of flows together?
(29:19):
Or do you actually have to be apit stop for these stones?
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Sometimes we hold for quite a while you know, in some
cases, if I can buy a stonereally well, then I don't mind.
If I want to, let's say, let'ssay I want to move it Like
there's a stone, there's a stone.
Right now I'm working on tryingto get a nice you know a nice
color out of it.
I'm not going to disclosebecause I want to take it, but
(29:46):
it could be worth a lot of moneyif it goes my way.
But in the interim, if itdoesn't go my way, I bought it
at such a good price that I canprobably offload it to the
marketplace, to another diamondwholesaler that might want to
sit on it, design a piece and dothe same shtick that we do with
other stuff you know what Imean and then I can just walk
away, cashflow it and keep going.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
I see, yeah, Sometimes I mean, I guess,
having things that are easier tomove, then it's like you know,
your, your risk is a little bitmore minimal.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
But there's always.
You're always sitting onsomething it's just part of the
just part of it, you know, butsomething it's just part of the
just part of it, you know.
But but I don't mind it.
Right, I don't mind it.
There's certain stones that Idon't care if I sit on it,
because over time they justcontinue to appreciate value.
I mean, obviously there's acapital cost to that right.
How many times could you turnthat money?
You know, make 20 on it orwhatever that looks like.
You know, there there is thatangle of it, but you always, you
(30:37):
know, it's like every otherbusiness you try to keep an
element of cashflow going andthat's how it rolls.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Kyle, we're going to take a quick break and then I
want to talk to you aboutcutting and maybe even a little
bit about labs.
So everybody, stay with us.
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And now back to the show.
All right, everybody Stillspeaking with Kyle Pancis.
(31:57):
So, kyle, we were talking aboutthe advantages of having these
cutters in your I don't want tosay your back pocket, but like
having a good relationship withthem, and how there are
advantages to using someone youknow relatively local versus
overseas.
First of all, what does thatrelationship look like with
building a relationship with a,with a diamond cutter?
What are the?
I've never actually spoken withsomeone that's a diamond cutter
.
I'd love to at some point.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Wait, maybe I get you involved with somebody.
Listen, when you go intoManhattan, in in in this
particular case, that you'reusually in a hole in the wall
type of a room.
Sometimes there's three of them, sometimes there's four of them
, sometimes there's two of them.
Um, sometimes there's like afactory of them where they all
have their little llcs andthere's like 15 guys with wheels
(32:36):
lined up.
You know it's a very under theradar type of in part of the
industry it's kind of actuallyold school as anything could be
right.
That's cool and it's cool, it'svery cool.
Um, they're like any of us.
They like to have a cigar, acigarette, a drink.
You know they talk aboutpolitics at current events.
Sports like this is uh, this iswhat goes on right in the shop,
(32:58):
if you will.
Yeah and um, yeah, it's.
It's cool, very, veryinteresting part of the business
.
Over time you develop justtrust and relationships with
these guys and some cutters havespecialties in other areas more
than others and you just try tofigure out and navigate what
fits your, what fits your needs,for you know, for what you're
doing.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
I was going to say so .
Like do some of them specializein?
Like I'm trying to understandthe when you would need like an
expert level cutter.
Is it like you'd get like arough stone and it has like a
crazy inclusion and it couldruin the stone and this guy is
going to be able to resuscitateit or be creative about it?
Is that what it is, or is itmore?
(33:38):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Like but when you're cutting from the rough we're
cutting a stone right now withthat exact scenario it's
eyeballing where the inclusionis in the stone and then you try
to set up where you want to putthe crown, angles and the
girdle to try to navigate thatinclusion to make sure that the
stone doesn't just fall apart onyou Right, or make sure that
the inclusions in a specificarea.
(33:59):
If you can try to finish thestone in that area, maybe it's
off the side where it's eyeclean.
In this particular case wemight end up having an SI2,
borderline, i1 stone.
We were shooting for a 10 caratand we're going to be at seven.
It kind of sucks, but at thesame time Seven carats, holy
smokes.
At the same time, the stoneisn't going to just fall apart
(34:20):
because of this big glitz in thecrystal.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
When you say fall apart.
Is that actually a real thing?
Speaker 3 (34:27):
I mean, if you are cutting the stone and it's under
that much stress right, and youhit something wrong in terms of
the inclusion, it can break.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Wow, holy smokes.
I guess I just never, even whenwe're always taught diamonds
are really hard.
So I just never kind of thoughtthat would be a possibility.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Very risky part of the business.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Yeah, and are you designing it Like?
Speaker 3 (34:54):
so you have, like the I don't know, some type of scan
and then you're making thedecisions ahead of time, or is
it like how much?
So, in this particular case,we'll scan the stone.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
And then, yeah, you take a Sharpie marker and we
meet and we draw some lines onthe stone as to what the plan
could look like and execute it.
That's so cool.
Do you think that, though, thatthat particular skill might
start being phased out?
Thing I've seen, uh, robots bevery good at.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
It is hyper, hyper precise, repeated movements, um
that and, and they can mill downto the, I mean just uh a crazy
level of detail yeah, I think ifyou're going in the world of ai
robots, um, I mean, we're waytoo far away from it.
I mean you're probably aboutfive, at least five, at least
five years before anything canreally start something, maybe
sooner.
I know there's people workingon it, but I think, more from
(35:49):
the commercial end of thebusiness, I think you can start
to see technology kind ofplaying more of a role, you know
taking over.
That I can see it for sure.
I think, in terms of, like thereally one-off scenarios that
you and I are talking aboutearlier in the podcast, with you
know changing a rare color of astone.
I think there's still going tobe a personal touch to that
(36:11):
because it's no, it's soexpensive, it's so expensive to
risk.
You know, like, if you'reworking on a couple hundred
thousand dollar stone and youand a robot screws it up, right,
I'd rather it be, I'd rather itbe in a human's hand.
To be honest, it seemssacrilegious, if you will, in
terms of technology and trustingit.
But like, I don't know, I'mkind of an old school guy when
(36:34):
it comes to that, but I thinkthere's a place for it in the
marketplace with AI cutting forsure.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Well, I mainly think about, for example, iteration.
Place with the, with ai cuttingfor sure.
Well, I mainly think about, forexample, iteration.
Um, to me, the best way to useai right now is just iteration.
It takes a lot of the thelegwork out of things if you
have the idea and you can seethe final result.
How you get there in the middleis sometimes a lot of times.
It's just iteration, and what Iwas thinking about is like you
(36:59):
were talking about with, yeah,you just got a sharpie and
you're kind of have this scan ofthe image and you're trying to
navigate around, uh, aninclusion of some sort.
To me it it seems like thatwould be where you could find
the way to get the best cut outof this with this inclusion, and
I feel like if you trained itenough times, I it's gonna do.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
that's where it could be.
It's going to for sure.
I mean, we have some time forit, but it's definitely going to
happen yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
I mean on the topic of unsavory and unsettling, but
I guess maybe kind of exciting.
If you don't mind, I'd love totalk about lab diamonds and
definitely something veryextremely polarizing in the
community and the one thing I'velearned though consumers not
that polarized by it.
They are kind of just like theydon't really care, and I think
(37:51):
that's what I love it's well, Ithink.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
I mean it's a very complex issue.
Um, fundamentally, I can'tstand seeing what the lab
business has done to theindustry.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
I really can't um, just like from a business, uh
strategy or ethics standpoint,or what do you mean?
Speaker 3 (38:12):
both sides of that ethics um strategy.
I mean, these lab companies areselling stones for 50, 60 a
carat, depending on what it isright, and these guys are busy,
they're coming here from india,they're setting up an loc, they
open up a desk in an office andall of a sudden there's another
lab guy selling it for fivedollars less than the other guy
over here.
(38:32):
Um, and then you go into, likethe natural diamond guys and
some of them are like it's quietwell, because if they were
stocking one, two, three caratstones of white diamonds, that
whole market has gotten reallyaffected by the lab,
unfortunately.
However, on the flip cointhere's opportunity because on
(38:54):
the if you want to talk natural,for instance, you know four or
five carat stones, six caratbigger, the guys buying those
stones still want those stones.
They're buying them becauseit's a hard asset, it's got a
history to it.
They know that.
They're putting their moneythere.
You know it's going to be there.
So there's that On the otherside of that coin.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
I think the lower the price.
Third side of this coin, if youwill.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Yeah, right, when you go back to the lab and you
start looking at the pricescontinuing to drop.
It's like, okay, well, 25 yearsago, when Moissanite came out
and it was $300 a carat, it wasthe same concerns in the
marketplace.
And then eventually, moissanitewas like 50 cents a carat or a
dollar a stone or somethingright, and now, all of a sudden,
(39:42):
the consumer is not interestedin that because it's so freaking
cheap.
And I think the same thing willhappen with lab.
I mean, the industry goesthrough fads every 10 years.
You know, when I came into thebusiness, it was right after the
recession of oa and, and theindustry was still struggling
with that and and and the wholeeconomy, if you will, really, um
, but in in that particular time, it was pandora beads.
Right, a lot of these storeswere kicking off pandora beads
(40:03):
and that was how they werestaying in business besides
buying gold off the street.
You know.
So the, the stores that areselling lab, and they're making,
you know, five times theirmoney right now.
I think that's fine, good, good, good, I'm with them, I hope
that they.
I'm all about making money.
I think it's fine, um, but Ithink at some point that it's
(40:24):
going to, the consumer is goingto wake up and when you already
start to talk to stores now, youcan start to hear that naturals
are starting to come back intoplay from a percentage point.
So that's good.
I'm not against lab, if youwill.
Like people are making money, Imean we.
I don't invest my money in itper se, I'm I like naturals.
(40:45):
I think the naturals make moresense to the consumer.
Um, if you want to talkfundamentals of, like wealth
transformation, you know like,obviously, when you buy a
diamond, you're paying.
You know consumers are paying.
You know a retail premium, butover you know consumers are
paying, you know a retailpremium, but over time, you know
markets do appreciate in valueas an asset.
And, um, I still like to thinkthat I don't sell all my stones
(41:09):
as assets per se.
But if somebody has got, youknow, a big net worth and they
want to sink money intosomething that's a rare art,
like people do in the art world,and you call it rare art, as in
terms of a diamond, you knowlike it's the same type of
concept, like, um, like lastweek or, yeah, just the other
day, there was another auctionrecord for pink diamond you know
(41:29):
like $14 million for whateverthe size I forget the size of
the details, but it was anotherrecord setting price which
drives prices up in the realmarket world, in the natural
market world.
So there's that too.
Um, that's my, that's kind oflike my high level take on lab
very interesting.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
I love having a and you're much more well informed
than I am going to jcp, ifsomebody wants to buy.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
If somebody wants to buy six carat total weight labs
as a, as a costume earring forstuds, for instance, you know,
and it costs them 1500 bucksright now.
Whatever that looks like, Got aplace.
Would I put it on my wife's ear?
Probably not but that's me.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Yeah, but that's a.
That was one of those things.
I was talking with a lot ofjewelers, especially the ones
that I was just becoming morefriends with.
For example, I was talking withthis guy, um bobby, at
cellini's, and we were talkingwith him a lot and he was
talking about like you know whatlabs were great for the company
and they to me.
I.
I think we will look back onthis span of time.
(42:36):
This is me from a very from aweb designer standpoint.
Uh, I think we'll look back onlabs in much in the same way
that we look back on, like um,cash for gold, in that it was a
very like important andimpactful stage of the jewelry
retail kind of life cycle and,like you know, do I wish cash
(42:56):
for gold to come back?
No, I kind of thought it wastacky and like it was before my
time.
I think it was like reallythat's when I was.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
That's when I got started.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
And you know what man and like.
Do I like love it, it's likenot really.
It's not really the part ofjewelry that I really like.
However, it kept a lot ofjewelry stores from going out of
business in a very difficulttime and I think that right now
we're seeing that for labs too.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Right now we're going back into a flux.
You know, a lot of the guysthat were making a boatload of
money on lab the last couple ofyears are starting to like see
struggles with that because, Imean, I don't know, their
revenues have to be droppingright.
I'd rather be selling a $10,000diamond, making 20%, than a
(43:39):
$300 diamond and making $1,500.
Yeah, bucks, yeah, yeah I seewhat you mean talking about cash
flow and revenue and and allthese things like it changes.
It changes the business.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
There's a huge impact on that and does that ever
creep into um, you know thefancy diamond, uh, space,
because I know that they can bejust I just for fun.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
A friend of mine just bought a vivid blue radiant
like carrot sized stone thing.
Looked like vivid blue,beautiful, like if it was a
natural vivid blue.
It would probably be worth wellinto the millions, like
probably easily five, sixmillion dollars.
And he threw it at me becausethe ruler and I looped it.
(44:20):
I'm like this is lab like it'sso, it was too perfect, like it
just doesn't make any sense, um,and then, of course, he paid
200 for it.
You know what I mean.
It's like well, should you makea jewelry line around it?
Well, I don't know kind of cool.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
It's a you know what I'm.
Uh, I would never tell peoplewhat to do with their business.
I'm just glad that there'soptions out there.
I think it's fascinating.
Speaker 3 (44:46):
It's a category like electric car Definitely a
category.
I'm never going to buy anelectric car for me, but maybe
one day I'll buy it for my wife.
It's kind of cool.
It's a category, definitely.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Yeah Well, Kyle, anything that you want to wrap
with.
If people were interested inlearning more about your
business, where can people go tostart learning more?
Speaker 3 (45:10):
Great question.
You guys can visit my website,gemsbypantscom.
I do vet who gets access to it.
We do have private informationon the backside once you log in.
That being said, we have a lotof education, have private
information on the backside onceyou log in.
That being said, we have a lotof education on the website on
the backside.
And then, of course, it kind ofgives you access to some
(45:30):
product pricing as well.
And you can also follow us atGems by Pantsys on Instagram.
I do have a YouTube channel,but it's always tough to keep be
consistent with the YouTubestuff.
A lot of people are all aboutthe social media.
Our business relies on socialmedia, but that's not our main
driving force as a wholesalecompany.
Um, so it's always aninteresting what do we post, how
(45:52):
, where, when, what?
But best way to reach out isalso Instagram.
Um, you know it comes to myphone, so we're a family
business, so if somebodymessaged me, I'm the one know it
comes to my phone, so we're afamily business, so if somebody
messaged me, I'm the one readingit.
Maybe one or two other peoplehave access to that account and
then, of course, you can alwaystext me or call me on my phone.
Cell phone 973-800-3717.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
I have a lot of fun in the industry with everybody
that we get to know, so I lookforward to helping anybody so
cool and Kyle, I think that'sone of the best everybody that
we get to get to know, so I lookforward to helping anybody.
So cool and kyle, I thinkthat's one of the best parts
about um, the the industry as awhole.
You know, I got a chance tomeet you at the client workshop.
Now we're doing a podcastbecause I thought it was really
interesting hearing you talkabout, uh, kind of a part of the
jewelry industry that it'salmost feel like people don't
(46:36):
don't talk about it as muchbecause it's almost.
It feels very, um, I don't wantto say exclusive, but it's like
very lofty.
Yeah, maybe exclusive is theright word.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
Yeah like exclusive and and and.
The best thing that I loveabout this business, this
industry and not evenparticularly to what I do in
general, but just as a generalstatement is it's very easy in
life and in a career to becomecomplacent, and I think that the
way our industry flows withtrends, new designs, whatever
(47:06):
the theme might be, there'salways really fun opportunity to
be creative in a different way,and whether that's from a
business perspective, from adesigning perspective, from a
product that you can purchase tomake money on, or an array of
products, like buying parcels ofgoods and making a sick, crazy
piece of jewelry out of it andall of a sudden you turn, you
(47:27):
know, you know, a couple ofthousand dollars into tens of
thousands of dollars Like that,those are the opportunities that
exist in, in in the business,and I think that the diamond
industry, the jewelry industryit's a really fun business to be
in.
We love that.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
You know.
Thanks so much, kyle.
We'll have to do a follow upsometime and I really appreciate
your time.
Everybody will be back nextweek, tuesday, with another
episode.
We'll give Kyle a follow up,all right, thanks everybody.
Bye.
Thank you, all right, everybody.
That's another show.
Thanks so much for listening.
(48:01):
This week I had as my guestKyle Pances with Gems by Pances.
He was a really great guest.
Make sure you check him out inthe show notes below.
This episode was brought to youby Punchmark and produced and
hosted by me, michael Burpo.
This episode was edited by PaulSuarez with music by Ross
Cockrum.
Don't forget to rate thepodcast on Spotify and Apple
(48:22):
Podcasts and leave us feedbackon punchmarkcom slash loop.
That's L-O-U-P-E.
Cheers.
We'll be back next week,Tuesday, with another episode.
Cheers, bye.
Welcome to In the Loop.
What is up everybody?
My name is Michael Barpo.
Thanks again for listening toIn the Loop.
This week I have Kyle Pantasonfrom Gems by Pantas and he is a
specialty dealer in fancydiamonds and it's a really cool
(00:22):
conversation.
Normally I structure theseinterviews in kind of a linear
fashion, meaning I start withlike their introduction and then
we kind of flow through theseconversations and I sort of
bring up these topic points.
For this one, I had met Kyle atthe client workshop a month and
a half ago at this point and atthe time I was like man, I
don't know anything about thistopic.
(00:43):
I would love to have himexplain to me more about these
colored diamonds and the processof them and kind of like the
world of dealing them.
It's a really interestingconversation.
I basically just threw everyquestion I had about the topic
at him and he filled themperfectly.
I would really recommend thisone.
This is a very interestingconversation.
(01:03):
Kyle's great on the mic.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
So I hope you enjoy Cheers.
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in any marketplace.
We consider our clients ourfriends, as many of them have
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(01:39):
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(02:00):
Slash go.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
And now back to the show.
What is up everybody?
My name is Michael Burpo.
Thanks again for listening to.
In the Loop I'm joined by KylePantus with Pantus Gems how are
you doing?
Or Gems by Pantus how are youdoing today, kyle?
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Pantus Gems.
Gems by Pantus.
I'm doing great.
How are you, michael?
Thanks for having me on here.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
So excited to get a chance to speak with you again.
We met at the Punch Bar ClientWorkshop where you were one of
the sponsors and gave apresentation, and I really
enjoyed your presentation allabout colored diamonds and kind
of the world of colored diamonds.
It was very educational.
It wasn't just here's, you know, this cool diamond, this cool
(02:46):
diamond, it was more about likethe, the story of them, uh, is
colored diamonds specificallywhat you work in?
yes, that's been our uhspecialty for 20 plus years,
actually 30 plus years and sotell me, tell me about gems by
pantsis and uh, it sounds likeyou guys have a pretty exciting
uh origin story.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yeah, so company.
My dad came into the businessin the late like mid to late
seventies I always say 76.
I think the official start waslike 82 with the company.
But he was already in thebusiness, in the trade doing
business before that.
Started as a young young, 19year old, 20 year old out of
college, started working retailat Mel Arts it used to be a
(03:24):
chain operation down inBaltimore Started learning.
He was selling diamonds overthe counter bridal rings fell in
love with the business, alwaysknew he wanted to be in the
industry from a kid and soeventually he kind of started
off on his own and kept divingfurther and further into the
trade and built a business withmy mom essentially.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Amazing.
And what's the story behind theKing of Brussels?
I was reading your guys aboutpage.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
I was like, yeah, I can't be real, what is that
about?
So so that was so.
Get started a couple years intothe business.
You know, everybody as anentrepreneur is always trying to
figure out new ways to inventthemselves and figure things out
Right.
And so in the beginning he wasselling and all sorts of
different loose diamonds.
And by 1985 ish, 86, he waslike looking to expand into more
(04:16):
sourcing overseas.
And my great uncle was theKing's journalist.
And wow, that's cool.
Kings journalists and wow,that's cool.
Yeah, it was really cool story.
And so he had asked mygrandfather at the time, or my
grandmother, to write thisletter in German to to my uncle,
kurt, who I'm actually namedafter.
(04:36):
Ironically, it's kind of verycool.
I don't think I've told thatstory when I met you a couple
weeks back, but anyway.
So he writes this letter andsays in the story when I met you
a couple weeks back, but anyway, so he writes this letter, he
says, okay, go on this such andsuch plane, meet me in Brussels,
in Antwerp.
So he flew over there.
This is way before technologyand all that good stuff.
He picked him up on the tarmacoff the plane and brought him
(04:56):
straight to the king's palace.
He had the whole experiencemeeting the king.
It was pretty like an incrediblestory from a young man's
perspective.
I King it was.
It was pretty like anincredible story from a young
man's perspective.
I think he was like, you know,maybe late twenties, early
thirties.
At that point, early thirties,I would say, and uh, kind of
really cool story.
And went there on business,said hey, I want to, you know,
(05:18):
get more involved into thediamond trade.
This is what we're doing herein the United States.
And lo and behold, heintroduced my father to some of
his personal cutters that he wasworking with in Antwerp and one
of the gentlemen's name wasHarry Polakevich.
It's, I guess, a famous guy atthe time in the trade.
He was cutting, like you know,all these like blue diamonds and
colored diamonds.
My dad had no idea about any ofthis stuff.
It was all new to him at thetime and that was kind of his
(05:41):
quick, you know, intro to thatworld and the network kind of
just built out from there.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
That's so cool.
I love sometimes those weirdmeetings and the fact that
people can offer you such a Idon't want to say a leg up, but
more like can offer you like abackstage pass.
And what I always think aboutis it's really a lot of what you
make of the opportunities whenthey're given to you, because
very easily you could take abackstage pass and it's just a
(06:08):
cool story and you know there'sthat.
But making the connectionsbecause you know, if I was to
say, if you're an aspiringmusician and I give you a
backstage pass to like a, youknow, jay-z concert or something
like that like theoretically,there's a world where you could
make these great connectionsthat change your life.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
There's also another world where you just go and you
have a great time backstage pass, and then there you go, you
know well and so and so the theconnection started and then he
started importing color diamondsand working with the argyle
mine already back in the 80s andrunning in-store programs.
And it was it was so new to themarketplace like selling a
color diamond to the consumereven today is kind of difficult.
(06:46):
But it's easier now, obviously,with all of the marketing
that's gone behind the wholeproduct line.
But back 30 years ago you couldbarely even sell these things.
Right, it was a very difficultproduct to sell.
Nobody understood it, nobodyknew it.
They only knew white diamonds.
That was the only thing peopleknew, because the beers and the
marketing and the industry wassolely around bridal white
diamonds for a hundred yearsprior, right.
(07:08):
So so you know, as a, as anentrepreneur, even even as a gen
two for myself, about 10 yearsago, my dad had kept.
My dad always told this storyand I'm like you know 10, you
know 10 years ago, I'm 12 yearsin the business.
I'm like new in the trade, I'mlike trying to.
You know, I'm traveling theroad like old school sales guys
are still today.
I mean, it's kind of like aninteresting breed that still
(07:29):
exists in the trade and I'mdriving around the country,
slaving away, trying to figureout how to make a living, trying
to do like everybody else inthe business and in other
businesses, not just solely thediamond jewelry industry and I
just keep hearing my dad tellingthe story and, like you said,
it's like what you do with thisconnections and how you build
from it.
Right, and as a company, wewere always focused on the color
category and I continue to hearthe story and one day I'm like
(07:52):
in the one night, of course,it's always the shower.
I am in the shower and I'mthinking about this whole thing.
Pants is gems, color diamondshere's the story and I'm like
this story needs to be glorified.
We need to expand this becausewhen you're in the moment in
business, you never realize whatyou're actually sitting on
until you look at it hindsight,2020, right, and then you start
to, you know, sensationalizesomething of what is a reality,
(08:16):
but in your own reality youdon't really think of it, like
you're saying.
And so I say you know what weneed to rebrand the company.
You know we didn't change thelegal stuff pants, gems
incorporated is still pens, gemsincorporated.
But like let's rebrand, let'sdo gems by pants nobody cuts a
gem like gems by pants, right,and let's just focus on this
exclusive color diamond market.
Go a little higher end, buildout some cool products and and
(08:37):
bring it to market.
And um, again, it's you.
You take a story, you take anexperience, you take a situation
and um, take an experience, youtake a situation and in my
dad's view he kind of just thatwas his story, that was his life
, right, it's his experience.
And in my world I was like howdo we sensationalize the shit
out of this thing and make itcool?
Because that's really what themarketing, that's what marketing
(08:59):
business is all about, right,and it is very cool.
History.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
It's about, yeah, like the the angle on these
kinds of things, and I thinkmaybe this kind of connects
really well into into coloreddiamonds and talking about them
a little bit more, just becauseI I'm down to geek out about
these things.
If you are, it's one of thosethings, and I don't want to.
I don't want to get rid of themagic, but I do kind of want to
talk a little bit about likethese diamonds.
(09:25):
So the one I'm hesitant aboutis I sometimes feel like the
marketing has almost jumped theshark and they're like salt and
pepper diamonds, and then I'mjust like those are just, you
know, those are the worstdiamonds, and I kind of think,
you know, maybe worse is aterrible way to frame them.
One thing I always wonder,though, is I could tell you what
(09:46):
that is yeah I could say freelywhat I want on here, right, of
course, absolutely let it rip,because it's you're the business
owner and in the end, I'm justyou know it's, I gotta be me.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
That's anyone who knows me in the trade.
That's what it is.
You get what you get, so saltand pepper diamonds.
Right here you have a miningoperation that's getting all
these goods and they're cuttingthem and they're it's shit,
literally.
However, there's beautiful shitout there, right, you can
glorify anything and turn itinto something good, and
essentially, all they did wasthey took worthless material in
(10:20):
the fine gemstone world is whatit's classified as worthless.
I mean, it's what it is.
It's diamonds with a lot ofinclusions in it, right, and
they just kind of made it coolsalt and pepper.
And they mounted up in some coolyellow gold and took some
Instagram Etsy pictures and loand behold with the, with the
power of Instagram and socialmedia they're kind of cool and
it's cool.
And so you're making thissegment of like really
(10:48):
inexpensive diamond jewelry.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
That fits a market.
There's a market for it.
But it kind of almost remindsme of, uh, for example, um, you
know oxtail, you know the thecut of meat oxtail.
So it's, uh, it used to beconsidered just almost like a
throwaway style but, um, a lotof cultures were eating it and
it was kind of like this supervaluable, really flavorful spot.
But what's so funny is thenagain it almost like goes beyond
(11:11):
where it was and then suddenlyoxtail soup is like considered
like this high level and then ittakes the price of oxtail, all
like the you know folks thatwere eating it as like a value
cut.
Suddenly they're all like damnlike these.
These michelin star restaurantsare buying up all the oxtail.
Now oxtail is you know this muchper pound as opposed to what it
(11:33):
was when it was cheap and Isometimes yeah, I sometimes
wonder if that's what kind ofhappens sometimes with diamonds
and I was wondering if is therea way to kind of look through
those things, like and see, isthere more than just the, the
four c's of diamonds when itcomes to these things that
you're looking at, because inthe end I mean the diamond
(11:53):
colors, is this spectrum?
I'm sure that there's everycolor of the spectrum but, like,
is there something you'relooking at that makes it a more
valuable one on there?
Speaker 3 (12:03):
well, yeah, so creating a commercialized
product line, because there'ssegments of our products that we
, you know you want to have acommercialized price points to
this and that you know you'rejust kind of looking for a nice
looking stone that can stillcarry the story.
If it's a price point, you putin a nice piece of jewelry or
design, something fun around itand it is what it is.
(12:24):
Like someone coming in andspending $2,000 on a piece,
you're still going to getsomething that's one of a kind
in the color diamond category.
It's true, right, it's not alet me blow smoke up your ass
type of tagline.
It is true, I can't duplicatethat piece.
I can make a similar style withanother similar stone, but that
particular stone one of a kind.
So, another similar stone, butthat particular stone one of a
(12:47):
kind.
So, yeah, that is true.
And then, when it comes to thehigher end, there's only so many
of these types of stones in themarketplace, right?
Just follow one character fancyping, for instance.
There might be 10 in the wholeworld on the live market right
now.
Maybe there's some in privatecollections that aren't
publicized or not on the marketper se, right?
So again, you're going into adifferent type of product,
(13:07):
different price point and even adifferent customer.
So when you're presenting thattype of product, you're, you're
coming in there with all thiscool education and cool
presentation to allow them tofully understand what they're
getting into.
And most of the time theyalready understand it because
they've done their own researchand they kind of have a desire
for it so that's the kind ofclientele too.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah, yeah and that's exactly.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
They want something that somebody else can't have,
and here there's one of 10 in inthe market right now.
Right a couple years ago,during covid, I remember flying
out to this, this gentleman'shouse, uh, that was introduced
to me through a retailer.
We did the deal together and Isold them like a seven carat
intense yellow.
I think it was IF kind of cool.
I think there was only oneother one for sale in the world,
(13:48):
on the market, so I was able totell him that and I wasn't
blowing smoke up his butt, youknow, I was telling him the
truth created a really coolexperience, made a really cool
piece and is, you know, veryhappy to spend the money.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
That's really interesting.
What are there?
Times, though, when people arelike they want this and they
almost work themselves into acorner where there's like, like
you said, there's only two outthere, or is there are there
opportunities?
Or times when you're workingwith a client they're like I
really wanted to have thesespecs and you're like, well,
unfortunately that doesn't existright now.
(14:20):
Does that ever okay, uh?
Speaker 3 (14:21):
happen, it happens.
Yeah, I'm actually working.
Actually, it's funny.
You said that I met withsomebody in vegas two weeks ago.
He gave he gave me a project towork on uh, a particular shape,
in a particular color and aparticular weight.
He says he's been working onthis for four years.
Hasn't been able to closeanything.
Of course I may.
You know, I'm in, I'm close tothe diamond trade and the supply
(14:42):
chain, so I'm able to, throughmy network of people, able to
source a particular stone insomeone's collection and I'm
able to present it now to thestore.
Right?
So now he's going to take theinformation, present it to the
client and hopefully make a nicetransaction, and that's going
to be retail will probably beover half a million dollars.
Wow, that's incredible.
Again, it takes time for thesethings to happen and you have to
(15:05):
have the tenacity and theendurance and and all that stuff
to to see it through.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
It sounds like you're almost kind of like, um, uh,
it's like more along the linesof like a, like a, like a rare
beast hunter or something likethat, where it's like there's
only so many of them out there,so many of them out there, right
.
I follow this one guy on uh onyoutube and every now and then
he pops up on my uh through thealgorithm and it's this guy who
sells private jets and the price, yeah, the private jet stuff is
(15:34):
so interesting because what'sfascinating is he already knows
who's on the other line, even ifthey obfuscate it, because the
number of people.
You send me his instagram please.
Yeah, I definitely 100.
But he's like uh, you knowthey're selling this stuff for
several million, you knowhundreds of millions of dollars
and there's only so many peoplethat can pay for it and there's
(15:55):
only this many billions, uh,billionaires in the world, and
he's like, if this person, ifthis jet, is being interested
and it's like a real interest,then it's one of these.
You know 50 people, right?
Is that is the community forthese fancy stones?
Is it that tight-knit, like youkind of know everybody that's
out there, or are there?
Speaker 3 (16:14):
like these flyers that come in and out.
It's tight, you, you, youpretty much get to know a lot of
the people that are in it andyou just take notes and try to
learn what's there and and thenagain it's all who gets the
business, who gets the call?
You know, it's always.
It's always the same type ofscenario.
There's 50 million millionairesin the world, right?
How many 50 millionmillionaires can afford the jet?
(16:35):
Yeah, exactly.
Well, 1 million isn't going todo it, right?
Maybe 50.
That's still kind of cutting itclose, still kind of cutting it
close.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
What about is there?
Is there any value in likedealing in, for example, like
uncut fancy gems?
Because, like you were saying,like there's only so much, and
you were in your presentationyou were talking about like the
sourcing of these things, andthen you have a you know an ace
up your sleeve with knowing someof these cutters.
Is that like your way of kindof getting more or less a leg up
(17:07):
on some of this, this business,by having those two separate
components, which is the roughcut and a cutter that you know
can do an excellent job?
Is that something that is likean angle you can work?
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:18):
so.
So there is part of that.
Everybody that's got a goodcutter like an angle you can
work.
Yeah, so there is part of that.
Everybody that's got a goodcutter has an angle right.
The interesting thing about thediamond world like if I buy a
stone that's finished right andI can see that there might be a
color increase or a potentialupgrade on the stone, you know,
maybe the last guy's cutterdidn't see it, maybe my cutter
did, and vice versa.
(17:39):
Maybe there's a project thatI'm working on that I can't
complete right.
Then I sell the stone because,like I don't, I don't see any
more upside.
I'm also just sell the stone.
I have it right.
I can make some money.
Next guy can take it and dowhat they want.
Maybe the next guy buys it fromme and his cutter sees it
differently and they're able tocut it.
So it's kind of like there's ascience behind it.
It's a, it's a real form of art, um.
(18:01):
So yeah, that's a, that's apart of the trade.
Uh, buying rough is.
Buying rough is interesting, isan interesting scenario.
We just started this yearreally buying a lot more um out
of canada and um, it's kind ofcool.
I think.
If you, if we wanted to, I canget stones cut overseas, in
india, let's say, for 150 to 100dollars a carat.
(18:23):
Right, that's what.
That's what they cut, you know,cost me per carat, which is
cheap.
But my guy that's local to me,that I use for other higher end
stuff, might charge me more.
But again, I can kind ofcontrol the way the, the end
result's going to be in terms ofhow the stone's going to be
shaped, the, since you know thescintillation, the brilliance of
it.
Like we kind of really are ableto just have more control of
(18:44):
maximizing the potential, whichmakes, in my opinion, a prettier
stone, which allows you to havea premium on the market more
upside, and, of course, itdifferentiates yourself from
everyone who's just cuttingstones in India.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Wow, it's so fascinating to me.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I see.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I apologize for this not being a very linear
conversation.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
It's very much it's like hey, I'm really interested
in this.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
I'd love you just to explain everything to me.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Here's another one.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Uh, for example, I follow this guy on on again a
different guy on YouTube.
He's, uh, I think it's Ari, uh,ari, the gem guy.
So he he a lot of the time he'sworking in New York and he buys
stuff over the counter and hesells stuff in lots.
And so how often are you buying?
Are you typically buying thesefancy stones, um, in singles, or
(19:30):
do you?
You is there an opportunity tobuy in lots and lots?
I, at least.
For me, what I think lots meanis like parcels, that's, I think
, actually the more of the term.
So do you?
Is that like kind of an angle?
Does that increase the value oris that actually?
It seems like when you'reselling a parcel, a lot of times
the price is actually comingdown because they're in in
(19:51):
groups.
It doesn't seem like itactually behooves you to do that
yeah, so.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
So if I buy in parcels, you're gonna get you're
gonna get a discount on theprice per carrot which allows
you to average cost, right.
You're always going to haveexcess material out of that
parcel, even if it's polishedgoods.
That are going to be your dogsand your winners, right?
So then you're able to takeyour winners, maximize your
profit and then you do what youcan with the dogs, right?
So there's that angle.
(20:16):
We do buy stuff like that,depending on what it is, and
then in the higher end stuff,like a lot of times I'm getting
leads from stores, clients thatown stuff for 20 years, 10 years
, 15 years, whatever that wantto sell.
I just actually boughtsomething last week off of an
auction house, which was kind ofcool.
There was an opportunity to buysomething off auction, so I
(20:38):
paid even the auction there.
You, you know, buyer fee orwhatever it was, you know, still
okay, it's still a retail typeof deal, but you know there's
value there.
I saw opportunity and I, youknow I hit the strike, the
strike, as they say, um, sothings come from all over the
place for us.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Yeah, mainly because I was thinking about, for
example, there's this one watchcompany, which I won't even
mention, uh, that does a rainbowwatch and, you know, has
rainbows right around the bezeland it's.
I mean, it's just incredible,yeah, yeah.
And what I always think about,any time I see it, is man, that
(21:16):
must be so hard to get a parcelthat is the full spectrum,
because undoubtedly you're goingto have, like you know, 90% of
it.
And then it's like, okay, Ineed a stone that sets in
between this color red and thiscolor orange, because that's the
way the spectrum works.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Well, and in their case, in the gemstone world in
particular, it's a little easierto cut the material.
In the gemstone world inparticular, it's a little easier
to cut the material, so it'sit's a little easier to mass
produce that a little bit morein volume than it would be in
the color diamond world.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Oh, interesting, I didn't even notice.
I didn't know that that wouldbe a there'd be you know a level
, a degree of difficultycompared to it.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
I mean there's.
I mean it's not easy.
Like it still takes time tocolor match these rainbow color
gemstones.
Like it's definitely a thing,but like if you have a supply
chain for it, like it's thematerials there so I guess I
mean that ties in very well withum, these names.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
So obviously there's champagne, diamonds, which are
slightly yellow, um, and thenthere's, I mean this argyle.
Argyle pink is, I think, whatyou're most well known for, or
at least what I've seen from you.
Yeah, how is there a, is therea determination or kind of like
a rule set around these colorsthat makes it this and not that?
(22:34):
Because, for example, like, howdo you know it's argyle pink
and not red and how do you knowit's not?
Speaker 3 (22:40):
you know white with like a little bit of pink, most
of the reds are actually most ofthe reds that exist in the
world, all of a few hundred ofthem.
All come mostly from the argylemine.
There's a few that exist outthere that are from a brazilian
mine, um, but most are argyle um.
So what you're going to see inpinks in particular is you have
(23:02):
like a type one and a type twotype material, right.
So argyle type two, type two, amaterials are going to typically
be outside of the argyle mine.
It would be more of like aSouth African mine, south
American mine.
They're going to be larger insize and they're going to be
more pastel-y in color, right,they're going to be larger in
size and they're going to bemore pastelly in color, right,
(23:23):
they're going to be more of apastelly pink where the Argyle
mine had a nitrogen richenvironment, and these stones
are typically going to besmaller in size but very, very
vibrant in color, like very,very rich pink, very rich red,
right.
So that's that's kind of themain to to distinguish from an
Argyle pink versus a non-Argylepink.
(23:43):
Then you have, like yourRussian material, right?
Russia was very known for liketheir purple diamonds, right.
So like a lot of the purplishpinks or those that type of
material it could be.
Most of the time is going to befound out at, like Russian,
russian mining operations.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Oh, that's so fascinating that they're to me.
Honestly, I just kind ofassumed that it was like, yeah,
they got this diamond mine andmost of them come out white.
Some of them come out, you know, a different color, but there's
more.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
There's more scientific testing that you can
do to like to test the material,to really confirm all that
stuff.
But most of the time, like thetrained eye, like if I loop a
stone from from, uh, from, let'ssay, a purplish pink from
russia, right, like it'stypically going to be, like a
more grainy diamond than, let'ssay, an argyle stone like or
non-argyle stone.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
You know, you could see, you could just see the way
the crystal is on the materialsthat from where it's basically
coming from in the world, kindof interesting so, when it goes
to the color, is there like, uh,it has to be this color, this
level of saturation, to beconsidered a red diamond,
because obviously calling it ared diamond, and then someone
takes a look at it and they'relike, ah, man, that ain't red.
(24:51):
Is there like a grading processand it has to meet a certain
criteria?
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Yeah, so there's a color spectrum wheel and GIA
uses that very stringently whenit comes to grading in their
laboratories.
But when you get red, let's sayyou get a fancy red.
You're looking at that stone,you're like, damn, that thing's
red.
Right, that's kind of how thatwould work, right.
And then when it knocks out ofthat realm, you can have like a
(25:19):
purplish red, you can havebrownish red, you can see red,
brownish, brownish red is thething.
Values are obviously verydifferent between a pure red and
that.
Purplish reds are a little bitless typically, but still
expensive.
And then when you go into thepink category on the color
spectrum, you have your fancylight, fancy fancy intense,
(25:41):
fancy deep and fancy vivid andthose saturation.
That saturation is is what theycall the saturation right and
the hue of the stone, and youcan see just kind of the
richness of what that looks likein the item really interesting
and yeah, I mean we always lovetalking about, you know, the
showstopper centers.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
What's the uh, what's the market like for, for
example, from, for melee?
You know like, uh, for thesesmall you're talking about,
argyle typically producessmaller stones and yeah, it's so
funny, I, I you say smaller andI'm like, ah, probably only
three quarters of the carrot,but it might be more like you
know one, yeah, yeah, onepointers one and a half pointers
, those are small melee a lot oftimes we're using that and the
(26:21):
accent stones is for thediamonds um, there's a market
for it.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
I mean, we're always shipping out melee, uh, for
custom rings, custom deals.
Um, and again, the same thingcarries true with the, with the
melee.
When you have like a vivid pinkmelee or you know an intense
pink, five pointer, for instance, could be like 30 to 40,000 a
carat depending on the size andall that, right.
So you know, like, for instance, last year we did a deal with
(26:47):
the store custom ring sevenpointers.
I think it was like a.
It was like a 40, $50,000 deal,all said and done in the ring,
just melee, wow, that's so crazyto think about.
And then we had it certified.
They wanted like a color cert,so like it was to think about.
And then we had it certified.
They wanted like a color search.
So like it was, it was a fullpresentation to the consumer and
that's and and everyone lovedit, are they?
Speaker 1 (27:07):
typically in.
They have like an end goal withthese pieces already mapped out
like ready to be set,essentially, or are they buying
the stones and then they'regoing to figure out what to do
with them based on what they buy?
Speaker 3 (27:19):
well.
So in this case they alreadyhad something in mind.
So we kind of backed into thewhole thing saying, okay, if you
want this end design like thisis what we need to do, this is
what's available, take it orleave it.
That was essentially how thatplayed out, um, and then in
other cases, yeah, there's mostof the time you, you know,
sometimes you buy stone and thenyou design around it.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, that's a very common thing in the in the
process sometimes, because youknow, when I, when I paint, I
start with the most interestingsubject.
I usually start from the centerand I build out, and I think
that's kind of how, a lot oftimes, how jewelry is done.
However, uh, it almost to me, Ithink what I would probably do
is just like design the wholepiece and then it's like
(28:02):
whatever you get for the centeris what the center is going to
be, but I can see how that mightfluctuate depending on.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
It could be a problem with these rare one of a kind.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
I can only imagine man.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
I just sold a blue diamond out of one of our
finished rings this year andit's like, now I have this
beautiful ring with a hole inthe center.
The hole in the center, whatthe hell am I gonna put in there
, you know?
And it's like you got 10 grandwrapped up in this thing and
it's us it's like, well, I mightjust sit on that for five years
before I find the perfect stoneto go in there.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah, one last question I guess I mean that.
That begs a great, uh, a greatquestion how often are you
locked up with these stones?
When you're dealing with theseproducts that, can you know,
range, crazy prices?
I'm sure that you see thesethings come around.
It's like, oh, it was too goodof a deal for me to pass up.
But now you've got to move itand I know enough about dealing
(28:58):
things that sometimes you have astinker that you know was going
to be a winner, and then youknow you can only have so much
of your cash flow locked upbefore it becomes a problem.
Is that something like whenyou're dealing?
Is it like you're almost doingconsignment from one place to
the other until it eventuallyconnects and then it just sort
of flows together?
(29:19):
Or do you actually have to be apit stop for these stones?
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Sometimes we hold for quite a while you know, in some
cases, if I can buy a stonereally well, then I don't mind.
If I want to, let's say, let'ssay I want to move it Like
there's a stone, there's a stone.
Right now I'm working on tryingto get a nice you know a nice
color out of it.
I'm not going to disclosebecause I want to take it, but
(29:46):
it could be worth a lot of moneyif it goes my way.
But in the interim, if itdoesn't go my way, I bought it
at such a good price that I canprobably offload it to the
marketplace, to another diamondwholesaler that might want to
sit on it, design a piece and dothe same shtick that we do with
other stuff you know what Imean and then I can just walk
away, cashflow it and keep going.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
I see, yeah, Sometimes I mean, I guess,
having things that are easier tomove, then it's like you know,
your, your risk is a little bitmore minimal.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
But there's always.
You're always sitting onsomething it's just part of the
just part of it, you know, butsomething it's just part of the
just part of it, you know.
But but I don't mind it.
Right, I don't mind it.
There's certain stones that Idon't care if I sit on it,
because over time they justcontinue to appreciate value.
I mean, obviously there's acapital cost to that right.
How many times could you turnthat money?
You know, make 20 on it orwhatever that looks like.
You know, there there is thatangle of it, but you always, you
(30:37):
know, it's like every otherbusiness you try to keep an
element of cashflow going andthat's how it rolls.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Kyle, we're going to take a quick break and then I
want to talk to you aboutcutting and maybe even a little
bit about labs.
So everybody, stay with us.
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(31:03):
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Again, that's punchmarkcomslash email dash marketing.
And now back to the show.
All right, everybody Stillspeaking with Kyle Pancis.
(31:57):
So, kyle, we were talking aboutthe advantages of having these
cutters in your I don't want tosay your back pocket, but like
having a good relationship withthem, and how there are
advantages to using someone youknow relatively local versus
overseas.
First of all, what does thatrelationship look like with
building a relationship with a,with a diamond cutter?
What are the?
I've never actually spoken withsomeone that's a diamond cutter
.
I'd love to at some point.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Wait, maybe I get you involved with somebody.
Listen, when you go intoManhattan, in in in this
particular case, that you'reusually in a hole in the wall
type of a room.
Sometimes there's three of them, sometimes there's four of them
, sometimes there's two of them.
Um, sometimes there's like afactory of them where they all
have their little llcs andthere's like 15 guys with wheels
(32:36):
lined up.
You know it's a very under theradar type of in part of the
industry it's kind of actuallyold school as anything could be
right.
That's cool and it's cool, it'svery cool.
Um, they're like any of us.
They like to have a cigar, acigarette, a drink.
You know they talk aboutpolitics at current events.
Sports like this is uh, this iswhat goes on right in the shop,
(32:58):
if you will.
Yeah and um, yeah, it's.
It's cool, very, veryinteresting part of the business
.
Over time you develop justtrust and relationships with
these guys and some cutters havespecialties in other areas more
than others and you just try tofigure out and navigate what
fits your, what fits your needs,for you know, for what you're
doing.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
I was going to say so .
Like do some of them specializein?
Like I'm trying to understandthe when you would need like an
expert level cutter.
Is it like you'd get like arough stone and it has like a
crazy inclusion and it couldruin the stone and this guy is
going to be able to resuscitateit or be creative about it?
Is that what it is, or is itmore?
(33:38):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Like but when you're cutting from the rough we're
cutting a stone right now withthat exact scenario it's
eyeballing where the inclusionis in the stone and then you try
to set up where you want to putthe crown, angles and the
girdle to try to navigate thatinclusion to make sure that the
stone doesn't just fall apart onyou Right, or make sure that
the inclusions in a specificarea.
(33:59):
If you can try to finish thestone in that area, maybe it's
off the side where it's eyeclean.
In this particular case wemight end up having an SI2,
borderline, i1 stone.
We were shooting for a 10 caratand we're going to be at seven.
It kind of sucks, but at thesame time Seven carats, holy
smokes.
At the same time, the stoneisn't going to just fall apart
(34:20):
because of this big glitz in thecrystal.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
When you say fall apart.
Is that actually a real thing?
Speaker 3 (34:27):
I mean, if you are cutting the stone and it's under
that much stress right, and youhit something wrong in terms of
the inclusion, it can break.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Wow, holy smokes.
I guess I just never, even whenwe're always taught diamonds
are really hard.
So I just never kind of thoughtthat would be a possibility.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Very risky part of the business.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Yeah, and are you designing it Like?
Speaker 3 (34:54):
so you have, like the I don't know, some type of scan
and then you're making thedecisions ahead of time, or is
it like how much?
So, in this particular case,we'll scan the stone.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
And then, yeah, you take a Sharpie marker and we
meet and we draw some lines onthe stone as to what the plan
could look like and execute it.
That's so cool.
Do you think that, though, thatthat particular skill might
start being phased out?
Thing I've seen, uh, robots bevery good at.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
It is hyper, hyper precise, repeated movements, um
that and, and they can mill downto the, I mean just uh a crazy
level of detail yeah, I think ifyou're going in the world of ai
robots, um, I mean, we're waytoo far away from it.
I mean you're probably aboutfive, at least five, at least
five years before anything canreally start something, maybe
sooner.
I know there's people workingon it, but I think, more from
(35:49):
the commercial end of thebusiness, I think you can start
to see technology kind ofplaying more of a role, you know
taking over.
That I can see it for sure.
I think, in terms of, like thereally one-off scenarios that
you and I are talking aboutearlier in the podcast, with you
know changing a rare color of astone.
I think there's still going tobe a personal touch to that
(36:11):
because it's no, it's soexpensive, it's so expensive to
risk.
You know, like, if you'reworking on a couple hundred
thousand dollar stone and youand a robot screws it up, right,
I'd rather it be, I'd rather itbe in a human's hand.
To be honest, it seemssacrilegious, if you will, in
terms of technology and trustingit.
But like, I don't know, I'mkind of an old school guy when
(36:34):
it comes to that, but I thinkthere's a place for it in the
marketplace with AI cutting forsure.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Well, I mainly think about, for example, iteration.
Place with the, with ai cuttingfor sure.
Well, I mainly think about, forexample, iteration.
Um, to me, the best way to useai right now is just iteration.
It takes a lot of the thelegwork out of things if you
have the idea and you can seethe final result.
How you get there in the middleis sometimes a lot of times.
It's just iteration, and what Iwas thinking about is like you
(36:59):
were talking about with, yeah,you just got a sharpie and
you're kind of have this scan ofthe image and you're trying to
navigate around, uh, aninclusion of some sort.
To me it it seems like thatwould be where you could find
the way to get the best cut outof this with this inclusion, and
I feel like if you trained itenough times, I it's gonna do.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
that's where it could be.
It's going to for sure.
I mean, we have some time forit, but it's definitely going to
happen yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
I mean on the topic of unsavory and unsettling, but
I guess maybe kind of exciting.
If you don't mind, I'd love totalk about lab diamonds and
definitely something veryextremely polarizing in the
community and the one thing I'velearned though consumers not
that polarized by it.
They are kind of just like theydon't really care, and I think
(37:51):
that's what I love it's well, Ithink.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
I mean it's a very complex issue.
Um, fundamentally, I can'tstand seeing what the lab
business has done to theindustry.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
I really can't um, just like from a business, uh
strategy or ethics standpoint,or what do you mean?
Speaker 3 (38:12):
both sides of that ethics um strategy.
I mean, these lab companies areselling stones for 50, 60 a
carat, depending on what it isright, and these guys are busy,
they're coming here from india,they're setting up an loc, they
open up a desk in an office andall of a sudden there's another
lab guy selling it for fivedollars less than the other guy
over here.
(38:32):
Um, and then you go into, likethe natural diamond guys and
some of them are like it's quietwell, because if they were
stocking one, two, three caratstones of white diamonds, that
whole market has gotten reallyaffected by the lab,
unfortunately.
However, on the flip cointhere's opportunity because on
(38:54):
the if you want to talk natural,for instance, you know four or
five carat stones, six caratbigger, the guys buying those
stones still want those stones.
They're buying them becauseit's a hard asset, it's got a
history to it.
They know that.
They're putting their moneythere.
You know it's going to be there.
So there's that On the otherside of that coin.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
I think the lower the price.
Third side of this coin, if youwill.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Yeah, right, when you go back to the lab and you
start looking at the pricescontinuing to drop.
It's like, okay, well, 25 yearsago, when Moissanite came out
and it was $300 a carat, it wasthe same concerns in the
marketplace.
And then eventually, moissanitewas like 50 cents a carat or a
dollar a stone or somethingright, and now, all of a sudden,
(39:42):
the consumer is not interestedin that because it's so freaking
cheap.
And I think the same thing willhappen with lab.
I mean, the industry goesthrough fads every 10 years.
You know, when I came into thebusiness, it was right after the
recession of oa and, and theindustry was still struggling
with that and and and the wholeeconomy, if you will, really, um
, but in in that particular time, it was pandora beads.
Right, a lot of these storeswere kicking off pandora beads
(40:03):
and that was how they werestaying in business besides
buying gold off the street.
You know.
So the, the stores that areselling lab, and they're making,
you know, five times theirmoney right now.
I think that's fine, good, good, good, I'm with them, I hope
that they.
I'm all about making money.
I think it's fine, um, but Ithink at some point that it's
(40:24):
going to, the consumer is goingto wake up and when you already
start to talk to stores now, youcan start to hear that naturals
are starting to come back intoplay from a percentage point.
So that's good.
I'm not against lab, if youwill.
Like people are making money, Imean we.
I don't invest my money in itper se, I'm I like naturals.
(40:45):
I think the naturals make moresense to the consumer.
Um, if you want to talkfundamentals of, like wealth
transformation, you know like,obviously, when you buy a
diamond, you're paying.
You know consumers are paying.
You know a retail premium, butover you know consumers are
paying, you know a retailpremium, but over time, you know
markets do appreciate in valueas an asset.
And, um, I still like to thinkthat I don't sell all my stones
(41:09):
as assets per se.
But if somebody has got, youknow, a big net worth and they
want to sink money intosomething that's a rare art,
like people do in the art world,and you call it rare art, as in
terms of a diamond, you knowlike it's the same type of
concept, like, um, like lastweek or, yeah, just the other
day, there was another auctionrecord for pink diamond you know
(41:29):
like $14 million for whateverthe size I forget the size of
the details, but it was anotherrecord setting price which
drives prices up in the realmarket world, in the natural
market world.
So there's that too.
Um, that's my, that's kind oflike my high level take on lab
very interesting.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
I love having a and you're much more well informed
than I am going to jcp, ifsomebody wants to buy.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
If somebody wants to buy six carat total weight labs
as a, as a costume earring forstuds, for instance, you know,
and it costs them 1500 bucksright now.
Whatever that looks like, Got aplace.
Would I put it on my wife's ear?
Probably not but that's me.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Yeah, but that's a.
That was one of those things.
I was talking with a lot ofjewelers, especially the ones
that I was just becoming morefriends with.
For example, I was talking withthis guy, um bobby, at
cellini's, and we were talkingwith him a lot and he was
talking about like you know whatlabs were great for the company
and they to me.
I.
I think we will look back onthis span of time.
(42:36):
This is me from a very from aweb designer standpoint.
Uh, I think we'll look back onlabs in much in the same way
that we look back on, like um,cash for gold, in that it was a
very like important andimpactful stage of the jewelry
retail kind of life cycle and,like you know, do I wish cash
(42:56):
for gold to come back?
No, I kind of thought it wastacky and like it was before my
time.
I think it was like reallythat's when I was.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
That's when I got started.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
And you know what man and like.
Do I like love it, it's likenot really.
It's not really the part ofjewelry that I really like.
However, it kept a lot ofjewelry stores from going out of
business in a very difficulttime and I think that right now
we're seeing that for labs too.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Right now we're going back into a flux.
You know, a lot of the guysthat were making a boatload of
money on lab the last couple ofyears are starting to like see
struggles with that because, Imean, I don't know, their
revenues have to be droppingright.
I'd rather be selling a $10,000diamond, making 20%, than a
(43:39):
$300 diamond and making $1,500.
Yeah, bucks, yeah, yeah I seewhat you mean talking about cash
flow and revenue and and allthese things like it changes.
It changes the business.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
There's a huge impact on that and does that ever
creep into um, you know thefancy diamond, uh, space,
because I know that they can bejust I just for fun.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
A friend of mine just bought a vivid blue radiant
like carrot sized stone thing.
Looked like vivid blue,beautiful, like if it was a
natural vivid blue.
It would probably be worth wellinto the millions, like
probably easily five, sixmillion dollars.
And he threw it at me becausethe ruler and I looped it.
(44:20):
I'm like this is lab like it'sso, it was too perfect, like it
just doesn't make any sense, um,and then, of course, he paid
200 for it.
You know what I mean.
It's like well, should you makea jewelry line around it?
Well, I don't know kind of cool.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
It's a you know what I'm.
Uh, I would never tell peoplewhat to do with their business.
I'm just glad that there'soptions out there.
I think it's fascinating.
Speaker 3 (44:46):
It's a category like electric car Definitely a
category.
I'm never going to buy anelectric car for me, but maybe
one day I'll buy it for my wife.
It's kind of cool.
It's a category, definitely.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Yeah Well, Kyle, anything that you want to wrap
with.
If people were interested inlearning more about your
business, where can people go tostart learning more?
Speaker 3 (45:10):
Great question.
You guys can visit my website,gemsbypantscom.
I do vet who gets access to it.
We do have private informationon the backside once you log in.
That being said, we have a lotof education, have private
information on the backside onceyou log in.
That being said, we have a lotof education on the website on
the backside.
And then, of course, it kind ofgives you access to some
(45:30):
product pricing as well.
And you can also follow us atGems by Pantsys on Instagram.
I do have a YouTube channel,but it's always tough to keep be
consistent with the YouTubestuff.
A lot of people are all aboutthe social media.
Our business relies on socialmedia, but that's not our main
driving force as a wholesalecompany.
Um, so it's always aninteresting what do we post, how
(45:52):
, where, when, what?
But best way to reach out isalso Instagram.
Um, you know it comes to myphone, so we're a family
business, so if somebodymessaged me, I'm the one know it
comes to my phone, so we're afamily business, so if somebody
messaged me, I'm the one readingit.
Maybe one or two other peoplehave access to that account and
then, of course, you can alwaystext me or call me on my phone.
Cell phone 973-800-3717.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
I have a lot of fun in the industry with everybody
that we get to know, so I lookforward to helping anybody so
cool and Kyle, I think that'sone of the best everybody that
we get to get to know, so I lookforward to helping anybody.
So cool and kyle, I thinkthat's one of the best parts
about um, the the industry as awhole.
You know, I got a chance tomeet you at the client workshop.
Now we're doing a podcastbecause I thought it was really
interesting hearing you talkabout, uh, kind of a part of the
jewelry industry that it'salmost feel like people don't
(46:36):
don't talk about it as muchbecause it's almost.
It feels very, um, I don't wantto say exclusive, but it's like
very lofty.
Yeah, maybe exclusive is theright word.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
Yeah like exclusive and and and.
The best thing that I loveabout this business, this
industry and not evenparticularly to what I do in
general, but just as a generalstatement is it's very easy in
life and in a career to becomecomplacent, and I think that the
way our industry flows withtrends, new designs, whatever
(47:06):
the theme might be, there'salways really fun opportunity to
be creative in a different way,and whether that's from a
business perspective, from adesigning perspective, from a
product that you can purchase tomake money on, or an array of
products, like buying parcels ofgoods and making a sick, crazy
piece of jewelry out of it andall of a sudden you turn, you
(47:27):
know, you know, a couple ofthousand dollars into tens of
thousands of dollars Like that,those are the opportunities that
exist in, in in the business,and I think that the diamond
industry, the jewelry industryit's a really fun business to be
in.
We love that.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
You know.
Thanks so much, kyle.
We'll have to do a follow upsometime and I really appreciate
your time.
Everybody will be back nextweek, tuesday, with another
episode.
We'll give Kyle a follow up,all right, thanks everybody.
Bye.
Thank you, all right, everybody.
That's another show.
Thanks so much for listening.
(48:01):
This week I had as my guestKyle Pances with Gems by Pances.
He was a really great guest.
Make sure you check him out inthe show notes below.
This episode was brought to youby Punchmark and produced and
hosted by me, michael Burpo.
This episode was edited by PaulSuarez with music by Ross
Cockrum.
Don't forget to rate thepodcast on Spotify and Apple
(48:22):
Podcasts and leave us feedbackon punchmarkcom slash loop.
That's L-O-U-P-E.
Cheers.
We'll be back next week,Tuesday, with another episode.
Cheers, bye.
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