November 13, 2025 • 42 mins
Have you ever had a small moment that changed your life trajectory? This week I'm sharing two personal experience with Marissa Campbell from the Art of Heart podcast.
One experience is about learning to release the shame of not always feeling “happy,” and another about is my journey of self-discovery after burnout.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode
- How to recognize when shame is clouding your emotional truth
- Why it’s possible (and human) to feel this and that—multiple emotions at once
- The subtle ways people pleasing sneaks into “good intentions”
- How shame and toxic positivity can block genuine healing
- What it means to reconnect with your mind, body, and spirit
- How to create a solo retreat to refill your emotional cup and rediscover who you are
Challenge for the Week
Take time this week to check in with yourself. Ask:
- “What am I actually feeling right now?”
- “What do I need—mentally, physically, and emotionally?”
Then, give yourself permission to honor whatever comes up without judgment. Let it be okay to be both this andthat.
Work With Me
If you’re ready to break free from burnout and people pleasing, I’d love to help you reconnect with your authentic self. Together, we’ll rebuild your confidence, strengthen your boundaries, and help you create a life that feels aligned and fulfilling.
👉 Book your free clarity call here: https://calendly.com/maryannwalkerlife/freeconsult
Don’t Forget to Subscribe
If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure to follow Art of Heart and Inner Work with MaryAnn Walker on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode full of heart-centered insight and inspiration.
Links Mentioned in This Episode
- Marissa Campbell, host of Art of Heart:
- MaryAnn Walker coaching: https:maryannwalker.life
- Follow on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/maryannwalker.life/
- Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/maryannwalker.life
- Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@maryannwalker.life
- Join my email list and get a FREE GIFT! https://maryannwalker-life.ck.page/3da1fd88a9
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Well, hello and welcome back.
My name is MaryAnn Walker and Ihelp people to live more fully
and more authentically.
And I am really excited to sharewith you today a recording that
took place over on anotherpodcast.
My friend, Marissa Campbell hasa podcast called The Art of
Heart, and on that podcast sheinterviews people and they might
be sharing some moment in timethat was really impactful for
them.
(00:21):
So this might be a happy moment,a sad moment, maybe just an aha
moment.
And it was really fun to be aguest on her show where I kind
of talked about a few pivotalmoments that happened to me on
my journey.
And so I wanted to share thatwith you here as well.
So go and check out her podcast,art of Heart, and I hope you
enjoy the interview.
Marissa (00:40):
Hello and welcome to Art of Heart.
I'm Marissa Campbell and goodthings happen on Thursdays, and
we have so many good things totalk about this week.
I cannot wait for you to meet myguest today.
So MaryAnn and I have been, um,in and out of each other's
lives, um, at, at these veryinteresting, um, way points.
And, um, MaryAnn and I knew eachother through a mutual friend
(01:03):
and we lived in the same cityfor a little while and we kept
kind of running into each other.
And, um, one of the things.
Things that I love about MaryAnnis that she has this
unbelievably bright energy andevery single time that we would
connect for one reason oranother, it was at this moment
where I really needed a spark ofpositivity and not like the fake
(01:26):
positivity, like the genuine,that's who she is in her soul
positivity and that genuineconnection.
And so I'm excited for all ofyou guys to get to experience
that today.
Um, so without further ado,welcome MaryAnn.
MaryAnn (01:39):
Oh, thank you so much for having me on, Marissa.
I absolutely adore you and Aw,thanks.
I, I just wanna return the loveby letting you know.
I love that when we connect,you're one of the people in life
that I just absolutely adorebecause it's so easy to just get
into the real conversation.
Like there's so many peoplewhere it's easy to just have the
fluff, superficialconversations, but I love that
(02:01):
you have this ability to reallyget to the root of things and
that you're bringing that out inyour podcast.
I absolutely adore everythingthat you're putting out into the
world.
So thank you so much for lettingme come on and be a part of it.
Marissa (02:13):
Aw, that's so kind.
Thank you.
And, um, you have a veryinteresting background and who
you are and what you're doing.
So tell us a little bit aboutthat.
MaryAnn (02:22):
Yeah, so, um, I am the life coach and podcaster for
recovering people pleasers, andso I have my own podcast and I
work with MaryAnn Walker.
And really the reason why I workwith that population is because
that's me.
I've had to do so much healingwork around people pleasing,
trying to identify, you know,self differentiate rather than
just being who everybody wantsme to be, but figuring out how
(02:45):
to be honest and authentic, andrecognizing that I have so much
energy.
When I can just show up as meand have it be okay.
And I know the work it takesinto getting to that point
because I've been the one who'sbeen, you know, putting on the
smile and, and trying to beeverything for everyone, and
what a drain that can be.
So I love working with people tohelp them to find their own
(03:08):
voice again, to learn how to setboundaries and just stand in
their own power.
I just absolutely love workingwith the people that I work
with.
It's my most favorite thing.
Marissa (03:17):
Isn't it amazing how when you're doing something that
you feel so passionately aboutor like you've done a lot of
work around, or like you're feellike you're in alignment with
your higher self, thateverything just is, it brings
you energy and it's so easy, butyet it's so fulfilling.
MaryAnn (03:31):
Oh, so true.
Yep.
Absolutely.
Marissa (03:35):
That's incredible.
You know, I, um.
I would've never thought that Iwas a people pleaser until I
went through my journey ofunderstanding, um, my self-worth
and that I'm not what I canproduce or provide.
And what I didn't understand isthere's a huge layer of people
pleasing, all masked into that.
And um, I was having aconversation with a friend the
other day and she said to me,she goes, I wouldn't have ever
(03:59):
thought you were a peoplepleaser because you just do
whatever has how it has to bedone to get things done.
And she knows me in business.
Mm-hmm.
And I was like.
Yes.
But what you don't know is thatI say yes to everything.
'cause I don't wanna let anybodydown.
Wow.
And even if that means I don'tget to sleep or I don't get to,
you know, whatever, I willsacrifice myself or I used to
(04:21):
mm-hmm.
In order to say yes toeverybody.
'cause I never wanted todisappoint somebody.
I never wanted to be like, oh, Ican't make it work.
And what I would do is I wouldovercommit and I would leave
myself at a deficit.
And I didn't understand thatthat is a hundred percent people
pleasing.
MaryAnn (04:36):
Yeah.
Oh wow.
Yep.
So true.
Boy, we have so much to talkabout around all of that.
That's a lot of what I'm gonnabe sharing today is identifying
what was coming up for me andhow much I was allowing that
people pleasing to control mylife.
But it, we don't even think ofit as people pleasing.
It's just, well, no, if I canhelp somebody out, why wouldn't
I?
Right.
It's can be so sneaky.
(04:57):
But then once you're in it,it's, it can be a challenge to
get out.
Marissa (05:01):
Absolutely.
Okay, so that leads us greatperfectly into our first story,
which is from shame toself-acceptance.
Tell us more.
MaryAnn (05:09):
Yeah, so I had a really interesting experience, and this
might sound like a really likesmall thing, but it had such a
huge impact for me.
And this was an experience whereI was really having a hard time,
I was feeling extremelydepressed.
It seemed like everything in mylife was kind of really in
upheaval.
So, you know, I'm, I'mstruggling with friendships that
(05:30):
are shifting, struggling in mymarriage.
I have teenagers that are justbeing teenagers, right?
So there's just all of thesethings going on for me where.
I was just in a really roughspot and speaking to that people
pleasing piece, I was reallytorn.
I recognized I had twoconflicting values where part of
me just really wanted to show upauthentically, but the other
part of me didn't want to let onthat I was having a hard time
(05:52):
because I didn't wannanegatively impact other people.
And so even though I was really,really struggling, I was trying
so hard to just quietly takecare of it myself.
So in public, I was putting onthe smile, I was doing all the
things, and then in private Iwould be doing my own work,
trying to help myself to feelbetter.
I was honestly too ashamed toask for help.
So I found myself looking forherbal supplements.
(06:15):
What, what things might behelpful, how could I find
anything that would be helpfulfor me so that I can continue to
show up for everybody else?
But I was really feelingcompletely drained at this point
and really feeling low.
And it all kind of came to ahead for me one day when I was
at Church of all places and Iwas walking down the hallway
(06:36):
from one room to the next andone of my friends stopped me and
he said, well, hey there, missSmiley, you know, you are the
happiest person that I know.
And normally I would've smiledback.
But I was in such a deep, darkplace at that time that honestly
I was in shock.
I just kind of stopped and, oh,well that's so nice of you to
(06:58):
say, you know, I made up someexcuse and walked away.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Mm-hmm.
MaryAnn (07:01):
But it really stuck with me where I started really
questioning myself and Ithought, am I lying to other
people?
Like, am I deceiving otherpeople?
Am I not being honest with themabout where I'm at?
Why would he be saying that I'mthe happiest person he knows
when I've never been moredepressed?
Marissa (07:19):
Yes,
MaryAnn (07:20):
and I was just so questioning myself and, and I
recognize now, you know, inhindsight, I had to really think
about that.
I was really discouraged in thatmoment and questioned, okay, so
like, what is going on for me?
Because now not only was Ifeeling bad, but I was feeling
bad about feeling bad.
(07:41):
I was feeling bad about smilingand was just beating myself up
Marissa (07:46):
even more.
So lonely, right?
Like so isolating that you,because when you can't, when you
feel like you can't ask for helpmm-hmm.
And you feel like you're, for mewhen I am not, um.
Being authentic, right?
Mm-hmm.
Or we're not, even if it's bad,right?
I feel like I'm being reallydishonest to people who don't
(08:09):
deserve that, and I'm not doingit.
You know?
You're not doing itintentionally.
Like you weren't walking aroundbeing like, I'm gonna lie to
this man at church and tell himthat everything's okay.
MaryAnn (08:18):
Yeah.
You
Marissa (08:18):
just think I can't ask for help.
MaryAnn (08:21):
Yeah.
And it was so interesting thateven as I was kind of like
reflecting back on it, right?
So I kind of took some time andlater that day I just was really
thinking on it and I thought,you know, it's so interesting
because really when I thoughtabout it as I was walking down
the hall, I was actually feelingokay in that moment.
(08:42):
I was happy to see people that Iknew.
I was happy to feel normal for aminute.
Mm-hmm.
Walking down that hall.
It was so interesting to justsee that I couldn't see it in
the moment though, right?
So in the moment I was justshaming myself thinking, no,
remember, you're supposed to besuper depressed right now.
It was like I was trying toshove myself into a box that
just didn't fit.
It's like, Nope, I'm sorry.
(09:03):
We're right now.
We're not gonna show that.
We're just happy walking down ahallway, even though I was.
Totally fine and content forthat 62nd walk, right?
Mm-hmm.
But I was trying to force myselfinto reinforcing that, nope,
you're super depressed and youbetter really acknowledge that
you're super depressed and youbetter let everybody else know.
Otherwise, I'm gonna shame youfor not being real and not being
authentic.
(09:24):
But it was very eye-opening forme to just recognize that I'm a
human, like I wasn't beingdeceitful.
But I'm just a human and humanshave this amazing capacity of
actually experiencing more thanone emotion at the same time.
This and that.
Yes, and I could be having areally hard time in all of these
(09:45):
other facets of life, and it'salso true that I could be okay.
Walking down that hallway andsmiling at friends, that both of
those things could be true atthe same time.
And just letting go of the shamethat I should be showing up
differently, that I should bemore real and authentic.
Letting go of the shoulds andjust actually allowing myself to
(10:08):
just be, not only to let myselfbe depressed when I was feeling
depressed, but also to letmyself be happy.
Like, what a difference thatmakes.
And it, it just has me thinkabout how often do we do that,
where we think, no, I'm eithersupposed to be happy, so I'm
only going to allow thoseemotions, or, oh, but I'm
supposed to be sad, so I shouldonly allow those emotions.
(10:28):
And really the human experienceis allowing space for all of it.
Marissa (10:33):
All the emotions and sometimes they happen in rapid
fire, like in that, like forthose 60 seconds you probably
were just bopping down the halland, but his experience with you
time and time again had beenthat you were smiley and happy
because that is how you are,that is how you present to the
world.
Even if things were not great onthe inside, I could absolutely
see you just continuing to moveforward.
(10:54):
But because we're having thesehuman experiences, right?
Mm-hmm.
And to your point.
You, you were depressed and youwere going through a shame
cycle, right.
And you were feeling all theseways, but in that moment, things
were okay.
Yeah.
And then things are gonna,things inevitably go back to
whatever that season was rightbefore you, um, kind of got to
(11:15):
the other side.
Mm-hmm.
But we don't give space for thisand that I say all the time,
like, I'm this and that and, andthat's, you know, it's okay to
be all the things.
We're not, there's no boxes.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Mm-hmm.
Marissa (11:31):
There's just not,
MaryAnn (11:32):
yeah.
Yeah.
That we can just be, yep.
That we can be.
All of it.
You can just be, we can be allof it at once.
Marissa (11:38):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So when you went back and youwere, it was at the end of the
day or you, we were after churchand you were thinking about, did
you just take a quiet moment andlike try to unpack what happened
and figure out how you felt?
MaryAnn (11:51):
Yeah.
Oh absolutely.
Yeah.
'cause I was trying to figurethat out.
I thought, I mean, I wasquestioning myself.
I was shaming myself.
I was absolutely in the shamecycle.
It was so interesting to havethat self realization that.
That, you know what?
Me smiling while walking downthe hallway was me actually
being authentic in that moment,you know?
Mm-hmm.
I did want to smile right then.
I wasn't being, like you said,it wasn't like I was trying to
(12:13):
deceive anyone, but it was sointeresting to just see, um, how
much lighter I felt justalleviating the shame that I
should be experiencing somethingdifferent.
'cause so often we'reexperiencing a negative emotion,
and then what do we do is we putshame on top of it and then we
make ourselves feel even worse.
And it was amazing how muchlighter I felt even in that
(12:33):
small moment.
By just simply removing theweight of shame.
Marissa (12:39):
Absolutely.
And then we pour posi, we pourtoxic positivity on top of it
because we're like, oh, well weneed to be thankful and grateful
in this moment.
And, and then you're like, waita second.
But that's, I don't actuallyfeel thankful or grateful for
this moment.
I feel I'm in a shame spiral andI feel concerned and I feel
confused, or whatever the wordsare.
Mm-hmm.
And we very rarely take time tomap those moments.
(13:03):
Mm-hmm.
And so.
One of the things I've reallylearned in this entire Art of
Heart process is mapping thewaypoints of your life.
Those moments where you're like,you know, there's a good a, a
hard or an aha moment, but wedon't go back and look at those
because we don't go back andlook at those.
We just continue to pour allthis stuff on top and we're not
like, Hey, how does thisactually become a moment where I
(13:26):
can understand what my heartlooked like?
You can take the time to belike, okay, I was in a shame
spiral, whatever.
Those feelings were
Speaker 3 (13:33):
mm-hmm.
Marissa (13:34):
We don't ever take those moments.
We're like, oh wait, we've gottaget to practice and we have to
make stuff for a potluck andwe've got, and we just keep
going.
MaryAnn (13:42):
Yeah.
And that suppression doesn't getus anywhere.
Right.
Like the feelings are gonna comeout eventually.
We might as well just let themand stop shaming ourself for
being human, but just allowourselves to feel.
'cause yeah, that suppression,you just never know how it's
gonna come out.
Right?
Because it's gonna come outeventually.
So you can either get curiousabout it and go, well, isn't
that interesting that I'mquestioning my self worth and my
(14:05):
authenticity because of a singlecomment in the hallway?
Yes.
But to get curious about it.
Instead of saying, oh, well Ibetter smile more'cause I don't
want anybody to feeluncomfortable.
I better do this.
I better, you know, likeshoulding on ourselves.
I should be this way, I shouldbe that way.
But just allowing yourself tojust be just it.
It's just amazing how muchlighter that actually makes life
(14:26):
to just let yourself be.
Marissa (14:29):
Absolutely.
So what does your heart looklike in that moment where you
were unpacking the hallway?
MaryAnn (14:36):
Yeah, I think in that moment, really my heart, it was.
Covered in a cloud of shame.
It, it didn't really want to beseen clearly.
It was kind of hiding.
And then also kind of likealmost pushing itself.
Like the image that comes tomind is remember that childhood
toy where you match the shapesand you put it in the right
shape and then it fits.
It was just trying to sh put itinto the wrong box where it's
(14:58):
like, no, you should fit intothis box.
This is how you should be, butit just wasn't gonna fit.
But to have all of that coveredin the shame, yeah, mostly it
was that cloud of shame thatjust, it just wanted to hide.
Marissa (15:10):
The cloud of shame is really interesting because, um,
it seems to pop up for all of usat different times, and a cloud
is a really good way to describethat shame feeling and that, um,
because no matter what ishappening, when the cloud of
shame comes
MaryAnn (15:27):
mm-hmm.
Marissa (15:28):
It's gonna overshadow whatever is underneath.
MaryAnn (15:30):
Yeah.
So true.
Marissa (15:33):
Wow, that's really interesting also that you felt
like the things didn't fit.
MaryAnn (15:41):
Right.
It reminds me of like trying toforce me into the box
Marissa (15:44):
Correct.
Or the star or the heart or thecircle or whatever it is that
didn't, the hexagon that didn'tfit into it.
I would imagine, um, that itfeels confusing, like it feels.
Like it makes you question morethan just that very moment.
(16:04):
Like, where else aren't youfitting and where else does it,
you know, match the way youthought it would.
MaryAnn (16:09):
Oh, for sure.
And you know, culturally wethink, oh, well you should
always show up as the star.
Yes, you should be the star allthe time, that that's the best
shape.
Right?
Or the heart, or whatever yourfavorite one is.
But then to see that, no, we'regoing to have our times where we
fit into each of those spots andthat's okay.
And allowing yourself to leaninto, you know, I think that
(16:30):
also allowing ourselves to feel,helps us to let go of judgment
around other people's emotionstoo.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Absolutely.
If I
MaryAnn (16:36):
allow myself.
To experience shame anddepression.
When I meet someone who isexperiencing shame and
depression, I can connect inwith them in a way that I
wouldn't be able to if I wassaying no, but you're supposed
to fit into the Starbucks.
You're supposed to be happy.
That's where that toxicpositivity comes in, right?
Is saying, no, but you'resupposed to be this way.
(16:56):
And how limiting that is notonly for our own personal
development, but also ourconnection with other people.
Marissa (17:03):
Yeah, and like showing up to any relationship with
curiosity over judgment has beenlike a huge shift.
Um, I never felt like I was ajudgy person.
Like I didn't like that judgything wasn't, but I definitely
wasn't curious.
I was just like accepting like,okay.
But what happens when you ask afew questions and not in an
interrogation way mm-hmm.
(17:24):
But in an, in a way to helpbetter understand mm-hmm.
What that person needs or howthey're showing up today.
Or do you need to check on them?
Like if you ask some clarifyingquestions or you're curious,
like, be cur, isn't it?
Um, Ted Lasso who talks about Becurious, not judgmental in the,
have you seen Ted Lasso?
No, I haven't, but I need towatch it.
(17:44):
It's so good.
Yeah.
It's literally one of myfavorites.
In fact, sitting right here onmy desk, which for Ted Lasso
fans, you'll totally knowthere's this thing that he, um,
takes a piece of paper and he,he tags it up and it says,
believe, and then it gets rippeddown and they put it back.
But, um, something I think abouta lot is the stay curious.
And so what a great way, notonly to handle yourself.
MaryAnn (18:05):
Yeah.
Marissa (18:05):
Um, but others.
MaryAnn (18:07):
Yeah, and I find that we have an easier time being
curious about others than we doourselves.
Right?
It's like, mm-hmm.
It, it's easier to show up for afriend and be like, Hey, can you
help me to understand, to becurious about it, to sit with
them?
It's almost easier sometimes tobe curious around what other
people are feeling, but we don'toften give ourselves the
courtesy of curiosity.
(18:28):
But to be curious with your ownemotional experience.
Marissa (18:31):
Yeah.
Courtesy of curiosity.
That might be the tagline forthe week that, I mean, it's true
though.
Yeah.
So cool.
Awesome.
So story two is really coolbecause it's um, it's a two
heart story, which I alwayslove, so.
Tell me more about findingyourself after people pleasing
(18:54):
burnout.
MaryAnn (18:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So of course this one's alsogonna be about people pleasing
'cause that's what I do, right?
So.
This was when I was reallyburned out as a people pleaser.
I was starting to recognize thatI had completely put all of my
wants, wishes, needs, emotionson hold, everybody else's
(19:15):
emotional state or currentneeds.
They always took prioritybecause I'd always been taught,
you know, if there's anypossible way that you can make
it work for somebody else,that's what you're supposed to
do.
You're supposed toself-sacrifice.
That's the good thing to do.
That's the noble thing to do.
So that's how I'd been living mylife and.
At this particular point intime, I had just finished
(19:38):
watching some kids for somegirlfriends of mine.
Um, they took a trip toColorado.
I watched the kids for threedays so they could do it.
And the truth is I was happy todo it.
I knew that they needed a break.
This is something I hadcommitted to do, but I also
found myself feeling reallytired and burned out.
And I recognized, you know what?
I really need to get away too,and I decided in that moment
(20:02):
what I really needed was to getaway and to get to know myself.
So I know that my girlfriendswere probably super confused
about why nobody was invited togo on this little retreat with
me, but I decided to plan aretreat for myself.
That's amazing.
Oh, it was the best.
I highly recommend it.
So I started to justintentionally plan a solo
(20:25):
retreat for myself.
So I booked a cabin in the woodsdown on Clinton Lake, just
outside of Lawrence, Kansas.
It was so gorgeous and I was somindful about it.
You know, my whole life I'vebeen so mindful about everybody
else.
I'd even traveled with otherpeople and even traveling with
other people.
It, some things were acollaboration, but mostly it was
(20:45):
me asking, okay, what do youwant to eat?
I'll figure out how to get allthe groceries, all the
ingredients to make it happen,right?
Mm-hmm.
What activities do you want todo?
Okay, that's what we're going todo.
I had had a really hard timeeven inquiring, speaking to that
curiosity piece, even askingmyself, well, what do I wanna
do?
Well, what would fill my cup onthis trip?
Marissa (21:05):
Right?
MaryAnn (21:06):
It was all about what everybody else wanted.
So I spent a significant amountof time just tuning into self to
see, okay, what do I want thisto be for me?
And I decided I wanted this tobe something that would feed my
mind, body, and soul.
Marissa (21:22):
Had you ever asked your question yourself that question
before?
MaryAnn (21:24):
Never.
And if I had, okay.
I never gave myself time tolisten.
It was always, well, you'resupposed to want this, right?
Mm-hmm.
It's those supposed toss.
No, but you're supposed to beaccommodating.
Like even when I'd go out to eatwith girlfriends, they'd be
like, oh, where do you wannaeat?
Oh, I don't care.
Wherever you want to eat.
It's like, okay, well, what kindof food do I even like, you
know?
Yeah.
So, yeah, so I've never reallytaken the time to get to know
(21:47):
myself.
So I thought long and hard and Ithought, okay, so how do I wanna
nourish my body?
And I thought, you know what?
I'm gonna go vegan for threedays.
I'm gonna meal prep and havethese delicious and nutritious
meals for myself.
So I had all my meals ready.
I thought, okay, what's gonnafeed my soul?
I.
And I love art and music, so Ipacked up my ukulele, I brought
(22:08):
my art supplies.
I was like, okay, I'm gonna justgo create some fun things.
And I had even really curated aplaylist for myself too.
And so it was called Feel TheFeels.
And I had songs on there thatwould make me feel amazing and
songs on there that would helpme to really get into the depths
of my.
Soul and process the hard.
Mm-hmm.
And I thought, okay, I'm gonnabring my journal.
(22:28):
I'm gonna emotionally process.
I put so much thought into it.
It was really kind of amazing tosee how exciting it was for me
to plan it.
Like, wow, I felt so energizedgoing into it, thinking this is
gonna be great.
I had never had an experiencewhere it was exactly what I
wanted, but since I was the onemaking it for me, it was finally
(22:48):
something that was just exactlywhat I wanted.
And I knew that that's exactlywhat it was going to be.
And it was really interesting asI was getting ready to go.
'cause one of the things Ireally wanted to do too was kind
of.
Really do some introspection.
I wanted to have some time tofill and process my emotions.
You know, one of the bigemotions that comes up a lot
with people pleasing is, um,there can be a lot of
(23:10):
insecurity, could, you're tryingto prove yourself to other
people.
Yes.
There can also be a lot ofresentment when you're saying
yes to something and thenrealizing after you've said yes,
that, oh, I bit off more than Ican chew.
I don't have the capacity to dothat right now.
Yep.
And so I knew, okay, I need tofind some space to feel and
process these emotions that arecoming up for me because these
(23:32):
are all things that I've saidyes to.
I can't be upset with otherpeople.
This is something I created forself, right?
Yeah.
So I thought, okay, I'm gonna,when I get to the cabin, then
I'll feel and process.
But it was so interesting to methat it was as I was loading up
my car to leave.
That everything started comingup.
(23:52):
It was like my nervous systemsaid, oh, the finish line is
close enough, I'm done.
And I just broke down intotears.
My car wasn't even loaded yet.
I'd planned to swing by thestore on the way to the cabin,
and I was like, well, now I'm amess.
That's not gonna happen.
But I had to be a little bitnurturing of self again, that
(24:14):
compassionate curiosity to belike, maybe this is exactly what
I need.
Marissa (24:19):
Yes.
MaryAnn (24:20):
I didn't know it was gonna hit me this way.
I thought it would wait till Igot there and I had everything
set up the way that I wanted,but mm-hmm.
Sometimes healing's messy
Marissa (24:29):
so, and, and not planned.
Yeah.
Like, oh, you had planned amoment for yourself, but not
right
MaryAnn (24:34):
then.
Yeah.
And as I've coached otherpeople, I've recognized that
this is true for so many people,where it's like they can see the
finish line.
And they think everything willhold off until then, but it's
like the nervous system justknows it needs that release.
Right.
As we talked about suppressingemotions, they, they gotta come
out and once they see that,okay, now I can see the finish
(24:56):
line.
Even if it still is, you know,10 feet away.
That Yeah, that sometimes thebody just says, okay, this is, I
did the best I could.
I held it in as long as I couldand now I just gotta let it go.
Marissa (25:08):
And now I'm done.
It's interesting that youmentioned that you wanted to
connect with your mind, yourbody, and your spirit.
Yeah.
This is one of those things inthe past six months, I've really
been on this journey to, tounderstand.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Mm-hmm.
Marissa (25:19):
I mean, I understood it like in like a very, like what
the word means, but mm-hmm.
Really.
I was unable to connect.
I could connect with my spiritreally well, and I could connect
with my mind really well, but Ihad zero connection into my
body, and I didn't even knowwhat that meant.
And so I was reading the newBrene Brown book this weekend,
(25:42):
which I love her.
She's
Speaker 3 (25:43):
mm-hmm
Marissa (25:44):
literally one of my favorites and she in the
opening.
And I don't wanna spoil a bookfor anybody,'cause I'm sure
there's lots of people who arelisteners out there who love her
as well.
But she talks about beingdisconnected from her body and
she talks about the fact thatshe had, people had always said,
oh, it's because, you know, youlive in your mind and you're
cerebral and whatever.
And that she went through a, asituation that.
(26:05):
Forced her to connect to herbody.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
Hmm.
Marissa (26:07):
And so as I've been going through this journey of
learning to connect into mybody, and I was like, oh wait, a
part of this journey for me hasbeen other people are doing
this, other people are trying tofigure these things out.
Um.
And so as I continue my journeyon how to feed all three and how
to prioritize and spend timewith all three.
(26:28):
Mm-hmm.
I find it really interestingthat in that moment where you
knew something had to change,you were so intentional to pay.
Honestly to pay attention to,but to give this love or this
care to all three.
Because one of the things Ithink we get confused is like a
(26:48):
face mask at the end of the dayfor 10 minutes is not self-care.
Like it.
It's something you do, but it'snot self-care.
But you were so intentionalabout creating an environment
that honored each of those,first of all, incredible second.
Can you tell me more about, asyou were going through that
(27:09):
weekend
Speaker 3 (27:10):
mm-hmm.
Marissa (27:11):
How each one of those, your mind, your body, and your
spirit, how, how that kind ofunfolded for you.
MaryAnn (27:18):
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Yeah, it was really interesting'cause first I did need to pay
attention to the body, right?
So I was mindful about what wasgoing into my body, but also I
was mindful of the movement.
You know, I, I think when you'reprocessing a lot of emotions,
movement is so helpful, right?
Emotions are.
Energy in motion and giving itthat outlet.
So that's one of the things Idid was I just allowed myself to
(27:40):
just dance.
I, I turned up my music.
I, I dance like a crazy personand it felt so good and it
helped me to connect in withthat inner child.
I think so much when we aren'tprocessing our emotions, like
you said, it comes out in thebody.
And Yes.
And that experience you talkedabout in Brene Brown's book,
like I had a very similarexperience where there was a
(28:01):
time when I literally could notwalk and, and I think that when.
When you are ignoring youremotions, the body keeps the
score, first of all, right?
Mm-hmm.
And so the body's going to holdonto it.
And if we don't listen to thebody, if we don't take care of
the body, the body is going toforce us to slow down and pay
attention.
(28:22):
So you can either choose to payattention to the body and
process it early on, or you canbe compelled to process it later
when your body says, Nope, I'mdone.
And,
Marissa (28:32):
and it will.
It's not, it's not if it's goingto happen to you, right?
It's when it will because itwill happen.
Yep.
Exactly.
MaryAnn (28:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So with the body piece, I wasvery mindful about doing my
yoga, dancing, uh, grounding outin the woods.
You know, I spent some time justmeditating under the moon, and
it was, it was amazing.
I just loved it so much.
So that's how I paid attentionto my body with my mind.
I did a lot of journaling.
I did a lot of identifying, I, Ihad to ask myself a lot of
(28:59):
questions.
I had to ask myself, okay, wheream I feeling most burned out?
And why am I burned out?
Because I need to state aboundary.
Am I burned out because I needto make a request so that I can
have more balance in thisrelationship?
What is it that I need?
I hadn't ever given myself timeto even reflect on what is the
current need right now?
Why do I feel this way and, andwhen I'm feeling this way, what
(29:23):
information is that giving me sothat I can find resolution for
it?
So that was very powerful tojust sit and journal on some
things.
So some things I journaled onand then intentionally burned in
the fire.
I made it a very much a mentalpractice.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Mm-hmm.
MaryAnn (29:39):
And then on the soul level, it was just really taking
that time for self, like justrecognizing what are my values,
what is important.
Mm-hmm.
If I were my own best friend,how would I be treating myself
right now?
Giving myself permission to havea voice was just so healing for
(30:00):
my soul.
Marissa (30:03):
It's interesting that you mentioned if, if you were
your own best friend.
Mm-hmm.
Because that's one of the thingsthat I have definitely, um.
It's been really shocking to methat I cared for others far
better than I ever cared formyself.
Hmm.
And, um, having an aha moment oflike, I believe my purpose here
is to return to self.
(30:23):
Yeah.
And to figure out me, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I have lots of friendsand I have more best friends
than probably I deserve.
And I never, ever treated myselfas well as I treated them until
the past six months, and I neverthought about it that way.
(30:47):
Hmm.
I never was like, like forinstance, like if you're tired
Speaker 3 (30:52):
mm-hmm.
Marissa (30:53):
You just push through, you could just be tired, but if
you're tired, it's anindication.
You need rest.
MaryAnn (31:01):
Yeah.
Marissa (31:01):
Right.
And understanding what kind ofrest, is it sleep, rest, or is
it active rest?
A whole other thing.
Like sometimes you need activerest.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Mm-hmm.
Marissa (31:10):
And, but we don't take the time to treat ourselves like
our own best friend.
We don't give ourselves the timeand attention we need.
And then the, I think the otherquestion that really needs to be
asked is you had this.
Awesome.
Aha moment.
When you left the cabin, whatdid you do with yourself?
MaryAnn (31:31):
Yeah, it was so amazing to just see how much those three
days really did transform mebecause before Oh, and we didn't
talk about what my heart lookedlike.
I'll tell you what my heartlooked like.
Okay.
Before the cabin and after thecabin.
'cause that's very important.
Okay.
Very important.
Yeah.
So going into the cabin, Irecognize like my heart really
looked like it was kind ofsmall.
(31:53):
And Dusty in the back of thejunk drawer.
I was not giving it the time andattention that it need.
I, I wasn't treating my ownheart as something of value.
And to contrast that with takingthe time to really dig in and do
my own inner work to identifywhat my own needs were.
Then coming out of that soloretreat, my heart was so
(32:17):
expansive, it was energized.
Just taking that time to seemyself and to identify what it
was that I wanted and to givethat to myself.
It was amazing how quickly thatshifted my energy and it
impacted not only how I wasshowing up for myself, but also
impacted how I was showing upfor other people.
(32:38):
I was able to connect with themin more authentic ways because
now I wasn't saying yes out ofobligation or out of that sense
of duty.
Mm-hmm.
But I was able to say yes when Imeant yes.
If I couldn't say yes and meanit, I was giving myself
permission to say no.
Because like you said, it allcomes down to figuring out what
(33:00):
the true need is, right?
It doesn't serve anybody ifyou're saying yes when you're
completely burned out.
Yeah.
It's not actually helpful forthem because now you're gonna be
resenting them.
That's gonna introduce somereally negative energy into the
relationship.
It's actually serving everyonewhen you can be honest about
what your current capacity.
And identify.
Okay.
Am I fake resting or am I realresting?
I remember as you were talking,I was remembering this book I
(33:21):
read and I wish I could rememberthe title.
I'll have to send it to youlater.
Um, awesome.
But if I can remember it.
But she was talking about thatidea of fake resting versus real
resting and she said, yeah, wejust got home from vacation.
And the whole family's layingaround their, in their PJs.
But.
I'm also in my PJ's, but I wasstill cleaning out the closets
and scrubbing the, like cleaningout the refrigerator and it
(33:43):
looked like I was resting, but Iwasn't.
It wasn't what I needed.
It wasn't feeding my mind or mybody or my soul and identifying.
What is going to actually fillme up right now?
Sometimes it is going to fillyour cup to go and serve other
people.
Mm-hmm.
And sometimes there's gonna betimes when it's like, you know
(34:03):
what?
Right now I really need toreserve that time for self.
And it can be so uncomfortableto let inform other people of
that.
Right.
Like I had to kind of, for awhile fudge it a little.
Oh yeah.
And say like, oh, well actuallyI have an appointment.
During that time, theappointment was with me.
Right.
I had to honor it as somethingsacred.
Marissa (34:22):
Yes.
And you had to set thatboundary.
Mm-hmm.
And also, so something that youmentioned.
Is that it was three days.
Mm-hmm.
So in three days, your heartwent from bruised, small, dusty,
the thing you would find in theback of a drawer.
Mm-hmm.
To bright, expansive, radiant,like the sun in three days.
(34:43):
This wasn't like 10 years.
This wasn't like reading 42books and go like in three days
that you spent quality time withyourself, you invested in your
mind, your body, and yourspirit.
You came out different on theother side.
A
MaryAnn (34:56):
hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
It was absolutely transformativefor me, and I know that not
everybody can dedicate threedays in solitude to themselves,
but I think that the same workcan be done in small pockets,
right?
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Mm-hmm.
MaryAnn (35:12):
Of, of just take yourself on a date, get to know
yourself in these small littleways of intentionally filling
your own cup.
It can, it's trulytransformative.
Marissa (35:25):
Yeah.
I mean, it starts with figuringout what do you like?
Right.
To your point earlier, what didyou want to eat?
How did you wanna fuel yourbody?
Speaker 3 (35:32):
Mm-hmm.
Marissa (35:33):
Maybe start by figuring out what you like.
That was a big, a big piece ofmy journey is understanding what
actually brings me joy.
Mm-hmm.
And I thought all, I thought itwas a totally different set of
things.
Like if you would've asked me inFebruary of this year.
I would've said, I will have joywhen I have an exit for my
startup.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Mm-hmm.
Marissa (35:51):
What?
No, that's not what brings mejoy.
You know, for me it's adventure,wonder, and genuine human
connection, and I keep repeatingthose things and everybody's
gonna get really tired of mesaying those things, but I have
to remind myself every singleday.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Mm-hmm.
Marissa (36:06):
That that is what brings me joy.
Because we forget the availableforgetfulness is real, and like
the insane schedules we all keepare real.
But now.
You can point to that and maybeit's drawing or maybe it's
playing your ukulele, or maybeit's just making an awesome meal
that you sit down and you eatwithout interruption.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Mm-hmm.
Marissa (36:27):
To spend time with yourself.
MaryAnn (36:28):
Yeah.
Well, and I love that youbrought up your own personal
value system because.
Truly.
Once you're able to identifywhat your value system is, then
that's when you're able to livein alignment with self.
When I was living as a peoplepleaser, I was living according
to everybody else's values.
They would essentially say, thisis what I value, and now I want
you to fall in line with that.
(36:49):
And I'd say, okay, yeah.
Yes, your values are important,but I never took the time to
assess what are my values.
And when you're in alignmentwith your own personal values,
it makes it so much easier tosay yes.
Yes.
And it makes it so much easierto say no, because you much
easier know what it is that youneed.
Marissa (37:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
So you obviously continued tolive in a different way after
the cabin.
Tell me more about what that hasbeen like.
MaryAnn (37:19):
So great.
I mean, I confess that for alittle season, you know, when I
was really trying to break freeof people pleasing, I did decide
that, you know what, I'm onlygoing to say yes to something if
I can give it a wholeheartedyes.
Which for a season meant I wassaying no to a lot of things
because I was so burned out.
I'm excited.
You'd mentioned before westarted recording, you're gonna
be launching a book on burnoutand I'm excited to read it once
(37:42):
it comes out.
Thanks.
Because, yeah.
'cause I was so burned out.
It took a while.
To bring myself back up tobaseline.
Marissa (37:49):
Yeah.
MaryAnn (37:49):
That was a part of my healing was I needed to get
myself back up to baseline sothat I could live more in
abundance.
Yes.
But I needed to dedicate thattime to me, which did mean
saying no to a lot of things.
Mm-hmm.
But it meant finally saying yesto myself.
Marissa (38:05):
That gives my whole body chills.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
Mm-hmm.
Marissa (38:07):
Like you said yes to you friend.
Yeah.
Like how cool is that?
It's the best.
It really is.
Yeah, it really is.
And like if you're out therelistening and you're like, I
don't even know how to say yesto myself, or like, I don't even
know, like.
These women are on here talkingabout choosing themselves, and
this means this is completelyforeign to me.
(38:29):
Get quiet, take 10 minutes, turnoff your phone.
Yeah, go where you'reuninterrupted.
Maybe go into nature or sit inyour car and think about what it
would mean to say yes toyourself.
It was life changing for me.
Obviously.
It was life changing forMaryAnn.
Yeah, I believe that this islike.
Of the things I've done in mylife and, and I don't wanna
(38:49):
speak for you, but I'm sure youwould say the same thing, and
you can correct me if I'm wrong,but helping other people to say
yes to themselves is suchimportant work.
And it's work that fills myheart up in a way that ha pales
in comparison to everythingelse.
MaryAnn (39:07):
Absolutely.
Because saying yes to yourself,it means going for what it is
that you really want, right?
That might mean having your ownstartup, getting that degree,
um, taking that solo retreat.
It might even just be that, youknow what, today I'm gonna say
yes to myself by getting myselfa, a malt.
That would be great.
I just wanna go to the ice creamshop and buy my favorite malt,
but finding like one way perday.
(39:28):
To really identify what issomething that would really help
me to feel good.
You know, this is backtracking alittle bit, but I do remember
one day when I was just sodrained and so exhausted and I
was, you know, my husband wastraveling, I was doing the
single parent thing, and I waswiped out, and I remembered
looking at all dishes in my sinkand looking at my lawn that
needed to be mowed, and I was sodrained.
(39:49):
But even then, as I looked atit, I thought.
You know what?
I'm so tired that I don't wannado that for myself.
But I know that if my bestfriend called me right now and
said, Hey, I'm so tired.
Could you help me mow my lawn?
Or maybe wash my dishes?
I would find the energy in aheartbeat and do that for her.
Mm-hmm.
And once I identified that, thatI could do that for me.
(40:10):
Yeah, it was something that wasweighing on me, but I recognized
I could do that for me.
I could say yes to myself.
I could do a nice thing for melike mow my own lawn when I was
really tired and when I wasdoing it from that place of self
love.
It gave me so much more energy.
It felt so good and I just, as Iwalked back and forth, that was
my mantra was, I sure love you.
(40:30):
You sure are a great friend.
I appreciate you so much.
And I just, yeah, talked tomyself the whole time.
Just, just shifting and doing itfrom that place of love of what
is it that would really help meto feel supported right now and
Marissa (40:42):
doing it.
Yes.
Versus, versus the thing islike, I can't believe I have to
mow this grass and I don't wantto do it, and my husband's on
the road and how come the kidsare like, but instead you spent
the entire time when you weremowing your grass.
Telling yourself and talking toyourself about, wow.
Great job friend.
MaryAnn (40:59):
Yeah.
As an act of self-love,
Marissa (41:01):
an act of self-love.
That's amazing.
So before we say goodbye, Iwanna ask, if you had one piece
of advice to share with people,what would it be?
MaryAnn (41:11):
Ooh, that's tricky.
I think that my advice would benumber one, just love yourself
where you're at.
I think that we experience somuch more growth and change when
we come at it from a place oflove.
Like it's so easy to shameourselves.
Our tendency is to shameourselves and think, well, if I
can make myself feel bad enough,then I'll finally start to
(41:32):
create that change for me.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
Mm-hmm.
MaryAnn (41:35):
But that doesn't create the lasting change.
That lasting change comes whenyou learn how to truly.
Love yourself exactly whereyou're at.
And that comes through thatcompassionate curiosity.
It comes through finding smallways to say yes to yourself by
being your own best friend, butthat truly your whole life
transforms when you start togenuinely love yourself.
Marissa (41:59):
Such amazing advice.
Thank you so much.
So, um, genuinely love yourselfwherever you're at today.
No matter where this podcastfinds you, love yourself and be
your own best friend.
Thank you so much, MaryAnn.
It's been amazing and um, have agreat day guys.
Well, hello and welcome back.
My name is MaryAnn Walker and Ihelp people to live more fully
and more authentically.
And I am really excited to sharewith you today a recording that
took place over on anotherpodcast.
My friend, Marissa Campbell hasa podcast called The Art of
Heart, and on that podcast sheinterviews people and they might
be sharing some moment in timethat was really impactful for
them.
(00:21):
So this might be a happy moment,a sad moment, maybe just an aha
moment.
And it was really fun to be aguest on her show where I kind
of talked about a few pivotalmoments that happened to me on
my journey.
And so I wanted to share thatwith you here as well.
So go and check out her podcast,art of Heart, and I hope you
enjoy the interview.
Marissa (00:40):
Hello and welcome to Art of Heart.
I'm Marissa Campbell and goodthings happen on Thursdays, and
we have so many good things totalk about this week.
I cannot wait for you to meet myguest today.
So MaryAnn and I have been, um,in and out of each other's
lives, um, at, at these veryinteresting, um, way points.
And, um, MaryAnn and I knew eachother through a mutual friend
(01:03):
and we lived in the same cityfor a little while and we kept
kind of running into each other.
And, um, one of the things.
Things that I love about MaryAnnis that she has this
unbelievably bright energy andevery single time that we would
connect for one reason oranother, it was at this moment
where I really needed a spark ofpositivity and not like the fake
(01:26):
positivity, like the genuine,that's who she is in her soul
positivity and that genuineconnection.
And so I'm excited for all ofyou guys to get to experience
that today.
Um, so without further ado,welcome MaryAnn.
MaryAnn (01:39):
Oh, thank you so much for having me on, Marissa.
I absolutely adore you and Aw,thanks.
I, I just wanna return the loveby letting you know.
I love that when we connect,you're one of the people in life
that I just absolutely adorebecause it's so easy to just get
into the real conversation.
Like there's so many peoplewhere it's easy to just have the
fluff, superficialconversations, but I love that
(02:01):
you have this ability to reallyget to the root of things and
that you're bringing that out inyour podcast.
I absolutely adore everythingthat you're putting out into the
world.
So thank you so much for lettingme come on and be a part of it.
Marissa (02:13):
Aw, that's so kind.
Thank you.
And, um, you have a veryinteresting background and who
you are and what you're doing.
So tell us a little bit aboutthat.
MaryAnn (02:22):
Yeah, so, um, I am the life coach and podcaster for
recovering people pleasers, andso I have my own podcast and I
work with MaryAnn Walker.
And really the reason why I workwith that population is because
that's me.
I've had to do so much healingwork around people pleasing,
trying to identify, you know,self differentiate rather than
just being who everybody wantsme to be, but figuring out how
(02:45):
to be honest and authentic, andrecognizing that I have so much
energy.
When I can just show up as meand have it be okay.
And I know the work it takesinto getting to that point
because I've been the one who'sbeen, you know, putting on the
smile and, and trying to beeverything for everyone, and
what a drain that can be.
So I love working with people tohelp them to find their own
(03:08):
voice again, to learn how to setboundaries and just stand in
their own power.
I just absolutely love workingwith the people that I work
with.
It's my most favorite thing.
Marissa (03:17):
Isn't it amazing how when you're doing something that
you feel so passionately aboutor like you've done a lot of
work around, or like you're feellike you're in alignment with
your higher self, thateverything just is, it brings
you energy and it's so easy, butyet it's so fulfilling.
MaryAnn (03:31):
Oh, so true.
Yep.
Absolutely.
Marissa (03:35):
That's incredible.
You know, I, um.
I would've never thought that Iwas a people pleaser until I
went through my journey ofunderstanding, um, my self-worth
and that I'm not what I canproduce or provide.
And what I didn't understand isthere's a huge layer of people
pleasing, all masked into that.
And um, I was having aconversation with a friend the
other day and she said to me,she goes, I wouldn't have ever
(03:59):
thought you were a peoplepleaser because you just do
whatever has how it has to bedone to get things done.
And she knows me in business.
Mm-hmm.
And I was like.
Yes.
But what you don't know is thatI say yes to everything.
'cause I don't wanna let anybodydown.
Wow.
And even if that means I don'tget to sleep or I don't get to,
you know, whatever, I willsacrifice myself or I used to
(04:21):
mm-hmm.
In order to say yes toeverybody.
'cause I never wanted todisappoint somebody.
I never wanted to be like, oh, Ican't make it work.
And what I would do is I wouldovercommit and I would leave
myself at a deficit.
And I didn't understand thatthat is a hundred percent people
pleasing.
MaryAnn (04:36):
Yeah.
Oh wow.
Yep.
So true.
Boy, we have so much to talkabout around all of that.
That's a lot of what I'm gonnabe sharing today is identifying
what was coming up for me andhow much I was allowing that
people pleasing to control mylife.
But it, we don't even think ofit as people pleasing.
It's just, well, no, if I canhelp somebody out, why wouldn't
I?
Right.
It's can be so sneaky.
(04:57):
But then once you're in it,it's, it can be a challenge to
get out.
Marissa (05:01):
Absolutely.
Okay, so that leads us greatperfectly into our first story,
which is from shame toself-acceptance.
Tell us more.
MaryAnn (05:09):
Yeah, so I had a really interesting experience, and this
might sound like a really likesmall thing, but it had such a
huge impact for me.
And this was an experience whereI was really having a hard time,
I was feeling extremelydepressed.
It seemed like everything in mylife was kind of really in
upheaval.
So, you know, I'm, I'mstruggling with friendships that
(05:30):
are shifting, struggling in mymarriage.
I have teenagers that are justbeing teenagers, right?
So there's just all of thesethings going on for me where.
I was just in a really roughspot and speaking to that people
pleasing piece, I was reallytorn.
I recognized I had twoconflicting values where part of
me just really wanted to show upauthentically, but the other
part of me didn't want to let onthat I was having a hard time
(05:52):
because I didn't wannanegatively impact other people.
And so even though I was really,really struggling, I was trying
so hard to just quietly takecare of it myself.
So in public, I was putting onthe smile, I was doing all the
things, and then in private Iwould be doing my own work,
trying to help myself to feelbetter.
I was honestly too ashamed toask for help.
So I found myself looking forherbal supplements.
(06:15):
What, what things might behelpful, how could I find
anything that would be helpfulfor me so that I can continue to
show up for everybody else?
But I was really feelingcompletely drained at this point
and really feeling low.
And it all kind of came to ahead for me one day when I was
at Church of all places and Iwas walking down the hallway
(06:36):
from one room to the next andone of my friends stopped me and
he said, well, hey there, missSmiley, you know, you are the
happiest person that I know.
And normally I would've smiledback.
But I was in such a deep, darkplace at that time that honestly
I was in shock.
I just kind of stopped and, oh,well that's so nice of you to
(06:58):
say, you know, I made up someexcuse and walked away.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Mm-hmm.
MaryAnn (07:01):
But it really stuck with me where I started really
questioning myself and Ithought, am I lying to other
people?
Like, am I deceiving otherpeople?
Am I not being honest with themabout where I'm at?
Why would he be saying that I'mthe happiest person he knows
when I've never been moredepressed?
Marissa (07:19):
Yes,
MaryAnn (07:20):
and I was just so questioning myself and, and I
recognize now, you know, inhindsight, I had to really think
about that.
I was really discouraged in thatmoment and questioned, okay, so
like, what is going on for me?
Because now not only was Ifeeling bad, but I was feeling
bad about feeling bad.
(07:41):
I was feeling bad about smilingand was just beating myself up
Marissa (07:46):
even more.
So lonely, right?
Like so isolating that you,because when you can't, when you
feel like you can't ask for helpmm-hmm.
And you feel like you're, for mewhen I am not, um.
Being authentic, right?
Mm-hmm.
Or we're not, even if it's bad,right?
I feel like I'm being reallydishonest to people who don't
(08:09):
deserve that, and I'm not doingit.
You know?
You're not doing itintentionally.
Like you weren't walking aroundbeing like, I'm gonna lie to
this man at church and tell himthat everything's okay.
MaryAnn (08:18):
Yeah.
You
Marissa (08:18):
just think I can't ask for help.
MaryAnn (08:21):
Yeah.
And it was so interesting thateven as I was kind of like
reflecting back on it, right?
So I kind of took some time andlater that day I just was really
thinking on it and I thought,you know, it's so interesting
because really when I thoughtabout it as I was walking down
the hall, I was actually feelingokay in that moment.
(08:42):
I was happy to see people that Iknew.
I was happy to feel normal for aminute.
Mm-hmm.
Walking down that hall.
It was so interesting to justsee that I couldn't see it in
the moment though, right?
So in the moment I was justshaming myself thinking, no,
remember, you're supposed to besuper depressed right now.
It was like I was trying toshove myself into a box that
just didn't fit.
It's like, Nope, I'm sorry.
(09:03):
We're right now.
We're not gonna show that.
We're just happy walking down ahallway, even though I was.
Totally fine and content forthat 62nd walk, right?
Mm-hmm.
But I was trying to force myselfinto reinforcing that, nope,
you're super depressed and youbetter really acknowledge that
you're super depressed and youbetter let everybody else know.
Otherwise, I'm gonna shame youfor not being real and not being
authentic.
(09:24):
But it was very eye-opening forme to just recognize that I'm a
human, like I wasn't beingdeceitful.
But I'm just a human and humanshave this amazing capacity of
actually experiencing more thanone emotion at the same time.
This and that.
Yes, and I could be having areally hard time in all of these
(09:45):
other facets of life, and it'salso true that I could be okay.
Walking down that hallway andsmiling at friends, that both of
those things could be true atthe same time.
And just letting go of the shamethat I should be showing up
differently, that I should bemore real and authentic.
Letting go of the shoulds andjust actually allowing myself to
(10:08):
just be, not only to let myselfbe depressed when I was feeling
depressed, but also to letmyself be happy.
Like, what a difference thatmakes.
And it, it just has me thinkabout how often do we do that,
where we think, no, I'm eithersupposed to be happy, so I'm
only going to allow thoseemotions, or, oh, but I'm
supposed to be sad, so I shouldonly allow those emotions.
(10:28):
And really the human experienceis allowing space for all of it.
Marissa (10:33):
All the emotions and sometimes they happen in rapid
fire, like in that, like forthose 60 seconds you probably
were just bopping down the halland, but his experience with you
time and time again had beenthat you were smiley and happy
because that is how you are,that is how you present to the
world.
Even if things were not great onthe inside, I could absolutely
see you just continuing to moveforward.
(10:54):
But because we're having thesehuman experiences, right?
Mm-hmm.
And to your point.
You, you were depressed and youwere going through a shame
cycle, right.
And you were feeling all theseways, but in that moment, things
were okay.
Yeah.
And then things are gonna,things inevitably go back to
whatever that season was rightbefore you, um, kind of got to
(11:15):
the other side.
Mm-hmm.
But we don't give space for thisand that I say all the time,
like, I'm this and that and, andthat's, you know, it's okay to
be all the things.
We're not, there's no boxes.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Mm-hmm.
Marissa (11:31):
There's just not,
MaryAnn (11:32):
yeah.
Yeah.
That we can just be, yep.
That we can be.
All of it.
You can just be, we can be allof it at once.
Marissa (11:38):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So when you went back and youwere, it was at the end of the
day or you, we were after churchand you were thinking about, did
you just take a quiet moment andlike try to unpack what happened
and figure out how you felt?
MaryAnn (11:51):
Yeah.
Oh absolutely.
Yeah.
'cause I was trying to figurethat out.
I thought, I mean, I wasquestioning myself.
I was shaming myself.
I was absolutely in the shamecycle.
It was so interesting to havethat self realization that.
That, you know what?
Me smiling while walking downthe hallway was me actually
being authentic in that moment,you know?
Mm-hmm.
I did want to smile right then.
I wasn't being, like you said,it wasn't like I was trying to
(12:13):
deceive anyone, but it was sointeresting to just see, um, how
much lighter I felt justalleviating the shame that I
should be experiencing somethingdifferent.
'cause so often we'reexperiencing a negative emotion,
and then what do we do is we putshame on top of it and then we
make ourselves feel even worse.
And it was amazing how muchlighter I felt even in that
(12:33):
small moment.
By just simply removing theweight of shame.
Marissa (12:39):
Absolutely.
And then we pour posi, we pourtoxic positivity on top of it
because we're like, oh, well weneed to be thankful and grateful
in this moment.
And, and then you're like, waita second.
But that's, I don't actuallyfeel thankful or grateful for
this moment.
I feel I'm in a shame spiral andI feel concerned and I feel
confused, or whatever the wordsare.
Mm-hmm.
And we very rarely take time tomap those moments.
(13:03):
Mm-hmm.
And so.
One of the things I've reallylearned in this entire Art of
Heart process is mapping thewaypoints of your life.
Those moments where you're like,you know, there's a good a, a
hard or an aha moment, but wedon't go back and look at those
because we don't go back andlook at those.
We just continue to pour allthis stuff on top and we're not
like, Hey, how does thisactually become a moment where I
(13:26):
can understand what my heartlooked like?
You can take the time to belike, okay, I was in a shame
spiral, whatever.
Those feelings were
Speaker 3 (13:33):
mm-hmm.
Marissa (13:34):
We don't ever take those moments.
We're like, oh wait, we've gottaget to practice and we have to
make stuff for a potluck andwe've got, and we just keep
going.
MaryAnn (13:42):
Yeah.
And that suppression doesn't getus anywhere.
Right.
Like the feelings are gonna comeout eventually.
We might as well just let themand stop shaming ourself for
being human, but just allowourselves to feel.
'cause yeah, that suppression,you just never know how it's
gonna come out.
Right?
Because it's gonna come outeventually.
So you can either get curiousabout it and go, well, isn't
that interesting that I'mquestioning my self worth and my
(14:05):
authenticity because of a singlecomment in the hallway?
Yes.
But to get curious about it.
Instead of saying, oh, well Ibetter smile more'cause I don't
want anybody to feeluncomfortable.
I better do this.
I better, you know, likeshoulding on ourselves.
I should be this way, I shouldbe that way.
But just allowing yourself tojust be just it.
It's just amazing how muchlighter that actually makes life
(14:26):
to just let yourself be.
Marissa (14:29):
Absolutely.
So what does your heart looklike in that moment where you
were unpacking the hallway?
MaryAnn (14:36):
Yeah, I think in that moment, really my heart, it was.
Covered in a cloud of shame.
It, it didn't really want to beseen clearly.
It was kind of hiding.
And then also kind of likealmost pushing itself.
Like the image that comes tomind is remember that childhood
toy where you match the shapesand you put it in the right
shape and then it fits.
It was just trying to sh put itinto the wrong box where it's
(14:58):
like, no, you should fit intothis box.
This is how you should be, butit just wasn't gonna fit.
But to have all of that coveredin the shame, yeah, mostly it
was that cloud of shame thatjust, it just wanted to hide.
Marissa (15:10):
The cloud of shame is really interesting because, um,
it seems to pop up for all of usat different times, and a cloud
is a really good way to describethat shame feeling and that, um,
because no matter what ishappening, when the cloud of
shame comes
MaryAnn (15:27):
mm-hmm.
Marissa (15:28):
It's gonna overshadow whatever is underneath.
MaryAnn (15:30):
Yeah.
So true.
Marissa (15:33):
Wow, that's really interesting also that you felt
like the things didn't fit.
MaryAnn (15:41):
Right.
It reminds me of like trying toforce me into the box
Marissa (15:44):
Correct.
Or the star or the heart or thecircle or whatever it is that
didn't, the hexagon that didn'tfit into it.
I would imagine, um, that itfeels confusing, like it feels.
Like it makes you question morethan just that very moment.
(16:04):
Like, where else aren't youfitting and where else does it,
you know, match the way youthought it would.
MaryAnn (16:09):
Oh, for sure.
And you know, culturally wethink, oh, well you should
always show up as the star.
Yes, you should be the star allthe time, that that's the best
shape.
Right?
Or the heart, or whatever yourfavorite one is.
But then to see that, no, we'regoing to have our times where we
fit into each of those spots andthat's okay.
And allowing yourself to leaninto, you know, I think that
(16:30):
also allowing ourselves to feel,helps us to let go of judgment
around other people's emotionstoo.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Absolutely.
If I
MaryAnn (16:36):
allow myself.
To experience shame anddepression.
When I meet someone who isexperiencing shame and
depression, I can connect inwith them in a way that I
wouldn't be able to if I wassaying no, but you're supposed
to fit into the Starbucks.
You're supposed to be happy.
That's where that toxicpositivity comes in, right?
Is saying, no, but you'resupposed to be this way.
(16:56):
And how limiting that is notonly for our own personal
development, but also ourconnection with other people.
Marissa (17:03):
Yeah, and like showing up to any relationship with
curiosity over judgment has beenlike a huge shift.
Um, I never felt like I was ajudgy person.
Like I didn't like that judgything wasn't, but I definitely
wasn't curious.
I was just like accepting like,okay.
But what happens when you ask afew questions and not in an
interrogation way mm-hmm.
(17:24):
But in an, in a way to helpbetter understand mm-hmm.
What that person needs or howthey're showing up today.
Or do you need to check on them?
Like if you ask some clarifyingquestions or you're curious,
like, be cur, isn't it?
Um, Ted Lasso who talks about Becurious, not judgmental in the,
have you seen Ted Lasso?
No, I haven't, but I need towatch it.
(17:44):
It's so good.
Yeah.
It's literally one of myfavorites.
In fact, sitting right here onmy desk, which for Ted Lasso
fans, you'll totally knowthere's this thing that he, um,
takes a piece of paper and he,he tags it up and it says,
believe, and then it gets rippeddown and they put it back.
But, um, something I think abouta lot is the stay curious.
And so what a great way, notonly to handle yourself.
MaryAnn (18:05):
Yeah.
Marissa (18:05):
Um, but others.
MaryAnn (18:07):
Yeah, and I find that we have an easier time being
curious about others than we doourselves.
Right?
It's like, mm-hmm.
It, it's easier to show up for afriend and be like, Hey, can you
help me to understand, to becurious about it, to sit with
them?
It's almost easier sometimes tobe curious around what other
people are feeling, but we don'toften give ourselves the
courtesy of curiosity.
(18:28):
But to be curious with your ownemotional experience.
Marissa (18:31):
Yeah.
Courtesy of curiosity.
That might be the tagline forthe week that, I mean, it's true
though.
Yeah.
So cool.
Awesome.
So story two is really coolbecause it's um, it's a two
heart story, which I alwayslove, so.
Tell me more about findingyourself after people pleasing
(18:54):
burnout.
MaryAnn (18:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So of course this one's alsogonna be about people pleasing
'cause that's what I do, right?
So.
This was when I was reallyburned out as a people pleaser.
I was starting to recognize thatI had completely put all of my
wants, wishes, needs, emotionson hold, everybody else's
(19:15):
emotional state or currentneeds.
They always took prioritybecause I'd always been taught,
you know, if there's anypossible way that you can make
it work for somebody else,that's what you're supposed to
do.
You're supposed toself-sacrifice.
That's the good thing to do.
That's the noble thing to do.
So that's how I'd been living mylife and.
At this particular point intime, I had just finished
(19:38):
watching some kids for somegirlfriends of mine.
Um, they took a trip toColorado.
I watched the kids for threedays so they could do it.
And the truth is I was happy todo it.
I knew that they needed a break.
This is something I hadcommitted to do, but I also
found myself feeling reallytired and burned out.
And I recognized, you know what?
I really need to get away too,and I decided in that moment
(20:02):
what I really needed was to getaway and to get to know myself.
So I know that my girlfriendswere probably super confused
about why nobody was invited togo on this little retreat with
me, but I decided to plan aretreat for myself.
That's amazing.
Oh, it was the best.
I highly recommend it.
So I started to justintentionally plan a solo
(20:25):
retreat for myself.
So I booked a cabin in the woodsdown on Clinton Lake, just
outside of Lawrence, Kansas.
It was so gorgeous and I was somindful about it.
You know, my whole life I'vebeen so mindful about everybody
else.
I'd even traveled with otherpeople and even traveling with
other people.
It, some things were acollaboration, but mostly it was
(20:45):
me asking, okay, what do youwant to eat?
I'll figure out how to get allthe groceries, all the
ingredients to make it happen,right?
Mm-hmm.
What activities do you want todo?
Okay, that's what we're going todo.
I had had a really hard timeeven inquiring, speaking to that
curiosity piece, even askingmyself, well, what do I wanna
do?
Well, what would fill my cup onthis trip?
Marissa (21:05):
Right?
MaryAnn (21:06):
It was all about what everybody else wanted.
So I spent a significant amountof time just tuning into self to
see, okay, what do I want thisto be for me?
And I decided I wanted this tobe something that would feed my
mind, body, and soul.
Marissa (21:22):
Had you ever asked your question yourself that question
before?
MaryAnn (21:24):
Never.
And if I had, okay.
I never gave myself time tolisten.
It was always, well, you'resupposed to want this, right?
Mm-hmm.
It's those supposed toss.
No, but you're supposed to beaccommodating.
Like even when I'd go out to eatwith girlfriends, they'd be
like, oh, where do you wannaeat?
Oh, I don't care.
Wherever you want to eat.
It's like, okay, well, what kindof food do I even like, you
know?
Yeah.
So, yeah, so I've never reallytaken the time to get to know
(21:47):
myself.
So I thought long and hard and Ithought, okay, so how do I wanna
nourish my body?
And I thought, you know what?
I'm gonna go vegan for threedays.
I'm gonna meal prep and havethese delicious and nutritious
meals for myself.
So I had all my meals ready.
I thought, okay, what's gonnafeed my soul?
I.
And I love art and music, so Ipacked up my ukulele, I brought
(22:08):
my art supplies.
I was like, okay, I'm gonna justgo create some fun things.
And I had even really curated aplaylist for myself too.
And so it was called Feel TheFeels.
And I had songs on there thatwould make me feel amazing and
songs on there that would helpme to really get into the depths
of my.
Soul and process the hard.
Mm-hmm.
And I thought, okay, I'm gonnabring my journal.
(22:28):
I'm gonna emotionally process.
I put so much thought into it.
It was really kind of amazing tosee how exciting it was for me
to plan it.
Like, wow, I felt so energizedgoing into it, thinking this is
gonna be great.
I had never had an experiencewhere it was exactly what I
wanted, but since I was the onemaking it for me, it was finally
(22:48):
something that was just exactlywhat I wanted.
And I knew that that's exactlywhat it was going to be.
And it was really interesting asI was getting ready to go.
'cause one of the things Ireally wanted to do too was kind
of.
Really do some introspection.
I wanted to have some time tofill and process my emotions.
You know, one of the bigemotions that comes up a lot
with people pleasing is, um,there can be a lot of
(23:10):
insecurity, could, you're tryingto prove yourself to other
people.
Yes.
There can also be a lot ofresentment when you're saying
yes to something and thenrealizing after you've said yes,
that, oh, I bit off more than Ican chew.
I don't have the capacity to dothat right now.
Yep.
And so I knew, okay, I need tofind some space to feel and
process these emotions that arecoming up for me because these
(23:32):
are all things that I've saidyes to.
I can't be upset with otherpeople.
This is something I created forself, right?
Yeah.
So I thought, okay, I'm gonna,when I get to the cabin, then
I'll feel and process.
But it was so interesting to methat it was as I was loading up
my car to leave.
That everything started comingup.
(23:52):
It was like my nervous systemsaid, oh, the finish line is
close enough, I'm done.
And I just broke down intotears.
My car wasn't even loaded yet.
I'd planned to swing by thestore on the way to the cabin,
and I was like, well, now I'm amess.
That's not gonna happen.
But I had to be a little bitnurturing of self again, that
(24:14):
compassionate curiosity to belike, maybe this is exactly what
I need.
Marissa (24:19):
Yes.
MaryAnn (24:20):
I didn't know it was gonna hit me this way.
I thought it would wait till Igot there and I had everything
set up the way that I wanted,but mm-hmm.
Sometimes healing's messy
Marissa (24:29):
so, and, and not planned.
Yeah.
Like, oh, you had planned amoment for yourself, but not
right
MaryAnn (24:34):
then.
Yeah.
And as I've coached otherpeople, I've recognized that
this is true for so many people,where it's like they can see the
finish line.
And they think everything willhold off until then, but it's
like the nervous system justknows it needs that release.
Right.
As we talked about suppressingemotions, they, they gotta come
out and once they see that,okay, now I can see the finish
(24:56):
line.
Even if it still is, you know,10 feet away.
That Yeah, that sometimes thebody just says, okay, this is, I
did the best I could.
I held it in as long as I couldand now I just gotta let it go.
Marissa (25:08):
And now I'm done.
It's interesting that youmentioned that you wanted to
connect with your mind, yourbody, and your spirit.
Yeah.
This is one of those things inthe past six months, I've really
been on this journey to, tounderstand.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Mm-hmm.
Marissa (25:19):
I mean, I understood it like in like a very, like what
the word means, but mm-hmm.
Really.
I was unable to connect.
I could connect with my spiritreally well, and I could connect
with my mind really well, but Ihad zero connection into my
body, and I didn't even knowwhat that meant.
And so I was reading the newBrene Brown book this weekend,
(25:42):
which I love her.
She's
Speaker 3 (25:43):
mm-hmm
Marissa (25:44):
literally one of my favorites and she in the
opening.
And I don't wanna spoil a bookfor anybody,'cause I'm sure
there's lots of people who arelisteners out there who love her
as well.
But she talks about beingdisconnected from her body and
she talks about the fact thatshe had, people had always said,
oh, it's because, you know, youlive in your mind and you're
cerebral and whatever.
And that she went through a, asituation that.
(26:05):
Forced her to connect to herbody.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
Hmm.
Marissa (26:07):
And so as I've been going through this journey of
learning to connect into mybody, and I was like, oh wait, a
part of this journey for me hasbeen other people are doing
this, other people are trying tofigure these things out.
Um.
And so as I continue my journeyon how to feed all three and how
to prioritize and spend timewith all three.
(26:28):
Mm-hmm.
I find it really interestingthat in that moment where you
knew something had to change,you were so intentional to pay.
Honestly to pay attention to,but to give this love or this
care to all three.
Because one of the things Ithink we get confused is like a
(26:48):
face mask at the end of the dayfor 10 minutes is not self-care.
Like it.
It's something you do, but it'snot self-care.
But you were so intentionalabout creating an environment
that honored each of those,first of all, incredible second.
Can you tell me more about, asyou were going through that
(27:09):
weekend
Speaker 3 (27:10):
mm-hmm.
Marissa (27:11):
How each one of those, your mind, your body, and your
spirit, how, how that kind ofunfolded for you.
MaryAnn (27:18):
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Yeah, it was really interesting'cause first I did need to pay
attention to the body, right?
So I was mindful about what wasgoing into my body, but also I
was mindful of the movement.
You know, I, I think when you'reprocessing a lot of emotions,
movement is so helpful, right?
Emotions are.
Energy in motion and giving itthat outlet.
So that's one of the things Idid was I just allowed myself to
(27:40):
just dance.
I, I turned up my music.
I, I dance like a crazy personand it felt so good and it
helped me to connect in withthat inner child.
I think so much when we aren'tprocessing our emotions, like
you said, it comes out in thebody.
And Yes.
And that experience you talkedabout in Brene Brown's book,
like I had a very similarexperience where there was a
(28:01):
time when I literally could notwalk and, and I think that when.
When you are ignoring youremotions, the body keeps the
score, first of all, right?
Mm-hmm.
And so the body's going to holdonto it.
And if we don't listen to thebody, if we don't take care of
the body, the body is going toforce us to slow down and pay
attention.
(28:22):
So you can either choose to payattention to the body and
process it early on, or you canbe compelled to process it later
when your body says, Nope, I'mdone.
And,
Marissa (28:32):
and it will.
It's not, it's not if it's goingto happen to you, right?
It's when it will because itwill happen.
Yep.
Exactly.
MaryAnn (28:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So with the body piece, I wasvery mindful about doing my
yoga, dancing, uh, grounding outin the woods.
You know, I spent some time justmeditating under the moon, and
it was, it was amazing.
I just loved it so much.
So that's how I paid attentionto my body with my mind.
I did a lot of journaling.
I did a lot of identifying, I, Ihad to ask myself a lot of
(28:59):
questions.
I had to ask myself, okay, wheream I feeling most burned out?
And why am I burned out?
Because I need to state aboundary.
Am I burned out because I needto make a request so that I can
have more balance in thisrelationship?
What is it that I need?
I hadn't ever given myself timeto even reflect on what is the
current need right now?
Why do I feel this way and, andwhen I'm feeling this way, what
(29:23):
information is that giving me sothat I can find resolution for
it?
So that was very powerful tojust sit and journal on some
things.
So some things I journaled onand then intentionally burned in
the fire.
I made it a very much a mentalpractice.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Mm-hmm.
MaryAnn (29:39):
And then on the soul level, it was just really taking
that time for self, like justrecognizing what are my values,
what is important.
Mm-hmm.
If I were my own best friend,how would I be treating myself
right now?
Giving myself permission to havea voice was just so healing for
(30:00):
my soul.
Marissa (30:03):
It's interesting that you mentioned if, if you were
your own best friend.
Mm-hmm.
Because that's one of the thingsthat I have definitely, um.
It's been really shocking to methat I cared for others far
better than I ever cared formyself.
Hmm.
And, um, having an aha moment oflike, I believe my purpose here
is to return to self.
(30:23):
Yeah.
And to figure out me, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I have lots of friendsand I have more best friends
than probably I deserve.
And I never, ever treated myselfas well as I treated them until
the past six months, and I neverthought about it that way.
(30:47):
Hmm.
I never was like, like forinstance, like if you're tired
Speaker 3 (30:52):
mm-hmm.
Marissa (30:53):
You just push through, you could just be tired, but if
you're tired, it's anindication.
You need rest.
MaryAnn (31:01):
Yeah.
Marissa (31:01):
Right.
And understanding what kind ofrest, is it sleep, rest, or is
it active rest?
A whole other thing.
Like sometimes you need activerest.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Mm-hmm.
Marissa (31:10):
And, but we don't take the time to treat ourselves like
our own best friend.
We don't give ourselves the timeand attention we need.
And then the, I think the otherquestion that really needs to be
asked is you had this.
Awesome.
Aha moment.
When you left the cabin, whatdid you do with yourself?
MaryAnn (31:31):
Yeah, it was so amazing to just see how much those three
days really did transform mebecause before Oh, and we didn't
talk about what my heart lookedlike.
I'll tell you what my heartlooked like.
Okay.
Before the cabin and after thecabin.
'cause that's very important.
Okay.
Very important.
Yeah.
So going into the cabin, Irecognize like my heart really
looked like it was kind ofsmall.
(31:53):
And Dusty in the back of thejunk drawer.
I was not giving it the time andattention that it need.
I, I wasn't treating my ownheart as something of value.
And to contrast that with takingthe time to really dig in and do
my own inner work to identifywhat my own needs were.
Then coming out of that soloretreat, my heart was so
(32:17):
expansive, it was energized.
Just taking that time to seemyself and to identify what it
was that I wanted and to givethat to myself.
It was amazing how quickly thatshifted my energy and it
impacted not only how I wasshowing up for myself, but also
impacted how I was showing upfor other people.
(32:38):
I was able to connect with themin more authentic ways because
now I wasn't saying yes out ofobligation or out of that sense
of duty.
Mm-hmm.
But I was able to say yes when Imeant yes.
If I couldn't say yes and meanit, I was giving myself
permission to say no.
Because like you said, it allcomes down to figuring out what
(33:00):
the true need is, right?
It doesn't serve anybody ifyou're saying yes when you're
completely burned out.
Yeah.
It's not actually helpful forthem because now you're gonna be
resenting them.
That's gonna introduce somereally negative energy into the
relationship.
It's actually serving everyonewhen you can be honest about
what your current capacity.
And identify.
Okay.
Am I fake resting or am I realresting?
I remember as you were talking,I was remembering this book I
(33:21):
read and I wish I could rememberthe title.
I'll have to send it to youlater.
Um, awesome.
But if I can remember it.
But she was talking about thatidea of fake resting versus real
resting and she said, yeah, wejust got home from vacation.
And the whole family's layingaround their, in their PJs.
But.
I'm also in my PJ's, but I wasstill cleaning out the closets
and scrubbing the, like cleaningout the refrigerator and it
(33:43):
looked like I was resting, but Iwasn't.
It wasn't what I needed.
It wasn't feeding my mind or mybody or my soul and identifying.
What is going to actually fillme up right now?
Sometimes it is going to fillyour cup to go and serve other
people.
Mm-hmm.
And sometimes there's gonna betimes when it's like, you know
(34:03):
what?
Right now I really need toreserve that time for self.
And it can be so uncomfortableto let inform other people of
that.
Right.
Like I had to kind of, for awhile fudge it a little.
Oh yeah.
And say like, oh, well actuallyI have an appointment.
During that time, theappointment was with me.
Right.
I had to honor it as somethingsacred.
Marissa (34:22):
Yes.
And you had to set thatboundary.
Mm-hmm.
And also, so something that youmentioned.
Is that it was three days.
Mm-hmm.
So in three days, your heartwent from bruised, small, dusty,
the thing you would find in theback of a drawer.
Mm-hmm.
To bright, expansive, radiant,like the sun in three days.
(34:43):
This wasn't like 10 years.
This wasn't like reading 42books and go like in three days
that you spent quality time withyourself, you invested in your
mind, your body, and yourspirit.
You came out different on theother side.
A
MaryAnn (34:56):
hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
It was absolutely transformativefor me, and I know that not
everybody can dedicate threedays in solitude to themselves,
but I think that the same workcan be done in small pockets,
right?
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Mm-hmm.
MaryAnn (35:12):
Of, of just take yourself on a date, get to know
yourself in these small littleways of intentionally filling
your own cup.
It can, it's trulytransformative.
Marissa (35:25):
Yeah.
I mean, it starts with figuringout what do you like?
Right.
To your point earlier, what didyou want to eat?
How did you wanna fuel yourbody?
Speaker 3 (35:32):
Mm-hmm.
Marissa (35:33):
Maybe start by figuring out what you like.
That was a big, a big piece ofmy journey is understanding what
actually brings me joy.
Mm-hmm.
And I thought all, I thought itwas a totally different set of
things.
Like if you would've asked me inFebruary of this year.
I would've said, I will have joywhen I have an exit for my
startup.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Mm-hmm.
Marissa (35:51):
What?
No, that's not what brings mejoy.
You know, for me it's adventure,wonder, and genuine human
connection, and I keep repeatingthose things and everybody's
gonna get really tired of mesaying those things, but I have
to remind myself every singleday.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Mm-hmm.
Marissa (36:06):
That that is what brings me joy.
Because we forget the availableforgetfulness is real, and like
the insane schedules we all keepare real.
But now.
You can point to that and maybeit's drawing or maybe it's
playing your ukulele, or maybeit's just making an awesome meal
that you sit down and you eatwithout interruption.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Mm-hmm.
Marissa (36:27):
To spend time with yourself.
MaryAnn (36:28):
Yeah.
Well, and I love that youbrought up your own personal
value system because.
Truly.
Once you're able to identifywhat your value system is, then
that's when you're able to livein alignment with self.
When I was living as a peoplepleaser, I was living according
to everybody else's values.
They would essentially say, thisis what I value, and now I want
you to fall in line with that.
(36:49):
And I'd say, okay, yeah.
Yes, your values are important,but I never took the time to
assess what are my values.
And when you're in alignmentwith your own personal values,
it makes it so much easier tosay yes.
Yes.
And it makes it so much easierto say no, because you much
easier know what it is that youneed.
Marissa (37:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
So you obviously continued tolive in a different way after
the cabin.
Tell me more about what that hasbeen like.
MaryAnn (37:19):
So great.
I mean, I confess that for alittle season, you know, when I
was really trying to break freeof people pleasing, I did decide
that, you know what, I'm onlygoing to say yes to something if
I can give it a wholeheartedyes.
Which for a season meant I wassaying no to a lot of things
because I was so burned out.
I'm excited.
You'd mentioned before westarted recording, you're gonna
be launching a book on burnoutand I'm excited to read it once
(37:42):
it comes out.
Thanks.
Because, yeah.
'cause I was so burned out.
It took a while.
To bring myself back up tobaseline.
Marissa (37:49):
Yeah.
MaryAnn (37:49):
That was a part of my healing was I needed to get
myself back up to baseline sothat I could live more in
abundance.
Yes.
But I needed to dedicate thattime to me, which did mean
saying no to a lot of things.
Mm-hmm.
But it meant finally saying yesto myself.
Marissa (38:05):
That gives my whole body chills.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
Mm-hmm.
Marissa (38:07):
Like you said yes to you friend.
Yeah.
Like how cool is that?
It's the best.
It really is.
Yeah, it really is.
And like if you're out therelistening and you're like, I
don't even know how to say yesto myself, or like, I don't even
know, like.
These women are on here talkingabout choosing themselves, and
this means this is completelyforeign to me.
(38:29):
Get quiet, take 10 minutes, turnoff your phone.
Yeah, go where you'reuninterrupted.
Maybe go into nature or sit inyour car and think about what it
would mean to say yes toyourself.
It was life changing for me.
Obviously.
It was life changing forMaryAnn.
Yeah, I believe that this islike.
Of the things I've done in mylife and, and I don't wanna
(38:49):
speak for you, but I'm sure youwould say the same thing, and
you can correct me if I'm wrong,but helping other people to say
yes to themselves is suchimportant work.
And it's work that fills myheart up in a way that ha pales
in comparison to everythingelse.
MaryAnn (39:07):
Absolutely.
Because saying yes to yourself,it means going for what it is
that you really want, right?
That might mean having your ownstartup, getting that degree,
um, taking that solo retreat.
It might even just be that, youknow what, today I'm gonna say
yes to myself by getting myselfa, a malt.
That would be great.
I just wanna go to the ice creamshop and buy my favorite malt,
but finding like one way perday.
(39:28):
To really identify what issomething that would really help
me to feel good.
You know, this is backtracking alittle bit, but I do remember
one day when I was just sodrained and so exhausted and I
was, you know, my husband wastraveling, I was doing the
single parent thing, and I waswiped out, and I remembered
looking at all dishes in my sinkand looking at my lawn that
needed to be mowed, and I was sodrained.
(39:49):
But even then, as I looked atit, I thought.
You know what?
I'm so tired that I don't wannado that for myself.
But I know that if my bestfriend called me right now and
said, Hey, I'm so tired.
Could you help me mow my lawn?
Or maybe wash my dishes?
I would find the energy in aheartbeat and do that for her.
Mm-hmm.
And once I identified that, thatI could do that for me.
(40:10):
Yeah, it was something that wasweighing on me, but I recognized
I could do that for me.
I could say yes to myself.
I could do a nice thing for melike mow my own lawn when I was
really tired and when I wasdoing it from that place of self
love.
It gave me so much more energy.
It felt so good and I just, as Iwalked back and forth, that was
my mantra was, I sure love you.
(40:30):
You sure are a great friend.
I appreciate you so much.
And I just, yeah, talked tomyself the whole time.
Just, just shifting and doing itfrom that place of love of what
is it that would really help meto feel supported right now and
Marissa (40:42):
doing it.
Yes.
Versus, versus the thing islike, I can't believe I have to
mow this grass and I don't wantto do it, and my husband's on
the road and how come the kidsare like, but instead you spent
the entire time when you weremowing your grass.
Telling yourself and talking toyourself about, wow.
Great job friend.
MaryAnn (40:59):
Yeah.
As an act of self-love,
Marissa (41:01):
an act of self-love.
That's amazing.
So before we say goodbye, Iwanna ask, if you had one piece
of advice to share with people,what would it be?
MaryAnn (41:11):
Ooh, that's tricky.
I think that my advice would benumber one, just love yourself
where you're at.
I think that we experience somuch more growth and change when
we come at it from a place oflove.
Like it's so easy to shameourselves.
Our tendency is to shameourselves and think, well, if I
can make myself feel bad enough,then I'll finally start to
(41:32):
create that change for me.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
Mm-hmm.
MaryAnn (41:35):
But that doesn't create the lasting change.
That lasting change comes whenyou learn how to truly.
Love yourself exactly whereyou're at.
And that comes through thatcompassionate curiosity.
It comes through finding smallways to say yes to yourself by
being your own best friend, butthat truly your whole life
transforms when you start togenuinely love yourself.
Marissa (41:59):
Such amazing advice.
Thank you so much.
So, um, genuinely love yourselfwherever you're at today.
No matter where this podcastfinds you, love yourself and be
your own best friend.
Thank you so much, MaryAnn.
It's been amazing and um, have agreat day guys.
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