February 19, 2024 • 29 mins
Welcome to an enlightening episode of the Inscape Quest podcast, where Trudi Howley and special guest, Cassandra Rustvold, a licensed clinical social worker and certified sex therapist, dive headfirst into discussing the importance of comprehensive sex education. A must-listen episode that boldly confronts the damaging silence and shame associated with sexual expression in our society.
The duo addresses vital societal flaws like abstinence-only sex education and our media's influence in shaping adolescents' understanding of sexuality, linking them to an increase in teenage pregnancies, STIs, shame, and mental health issues. They also highlight crucial societal gaps in differentiating sexual orientation and sexuality, thus debunking common misconceptions surrounding them.
This episode compellingly underscores the pivotal role of parents, educators, and therapists in nurturing informed conversations about sexuality, emphasizing the urgent need for systematic changes at the grassroots level, like peer mentorship programs on sexual health.
Cassandra and Trudi boldly explore the complex world of teen sex education, underlining its critical role, especially within the LGBTQA+ community. Their dialogue examines the rapidly evolving dynamics of relationships and sexual experimentation, raising the pressing question: Are young people emotionally prepared to navigate these waters?
From discussing the impact of COVID-19 pandemic on sexuality to addressing sexual addiction's multifaceted nuances, the conversation turns pivotal in shaping a healthier, stigma-free approach towards sex education. An episode that beckons the need for normalized, proactive dialogue around sexual preferences, and fosters inclusivity in the realm of sexual conversations.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello podcast listeners. Thank you for tuning in today to the InScape Quest podcast show.
I am your host, Trudy Howley. Here I am talking with people about how they engage
with their relationships, work and passions.
Please subscribe and share the show with a friend.
(00:21):
And thanks to you, we can grow meaningful conversations together, one episode at a time.
Today I'm having a conversation with Cassandra Rusvold licensed clinical social
worker somatic trauma therapist and certified sex therapist we discuss what
(00:45):
might be needed in the world of sex education.
Hi, Cassandra. It's really great to have you here today. I'm really excited
to have this conversation.
You're one of the coolest people I know. Oh, thank you. You're pretty cool too.
(01:07):
Thanks for having me. Let's dive in. And I know that you have a thriving practice
and you deal a lot with problematic sexual behaviors.
I'm really curious, like from the perspective of sexual education and what people
are taught and what people think are normal behaviors around sex,
(01:29):
where are things going wrong here?
Something that's very important to me and I'm very passionate about.
I think, you know, the first thing that comes to mind is the lack of conversation
that is had around sex and sexuality, both within school systems.
Within family systems, but also within our culture at large,
(01:52):
unless it's talking about the extreme points of it, where it's not going well,
or where it's problematic, or glamorizing of sexuality, and not much about the like, in-betweens.
So I think that's kind of a general spot I'd like to start in working,
you know, as a sex therapist and with people around all kinds of different sexual topics,
(02:17):
sometimes even just starting the conversation with them to even have people
name what it is takes a long time and a lot of movement through discomfort because we don't have,
at least in this modern day culture in the United States, We don't have the
vocabulary to even have those conversations or the emotional regulation to do so.
(02:41):
So yeah, I think that that's one of the biggest pieces that I think speaks to
just the covert, you know, under the surface shame that we teach by not teaching.
With young people as well, in particular, that they can be so easily shamed
and they don't know even what their values are because they haven't had a chance
(03:05):
to explore life or explore their sexuality.
I'm curious if you could maybe define the difference between sexuality Sexuality
and sexual orientation, because I'm guessing it can change and be on a spectrum.
Sexual orientation is complicated itself.
(03:29):
So generally it means who are you attracted to?
But that doesn't have to mean who do I want to have sex with and who do I want
to live with and what group do I socialize, want to associate myself with?
And who do I fantasize about? It can be a combination of all those things.
I'm not sure if that makes sense, but Fritz Klein created this definition or
(03:53):
kind of chart to be able to look at what sexual orientation is.
Most people just think, oh, sexual orientation is who I want to have sex with,
but it's so much broader than that.
But generally, so just as a go-to for our conversation, it's who am I attracted to?
Sexuality is more about like, how do I experience myself as a sexual being?
(04:19):
That can be a solo experience or a shared experience.
As a sexual being doesn't always have to mean genitals coming together or even
the experience of genital pleasure,
but sexuality can be expressed in how we walk and how we speak and just a more
(04:39):
broad experience or expression of a sensual nature is part of what makes up sexuality.
And then I just want to add another piece, which I think is becoming more clear
with this amazing culture of millennium.
The word sex itself can mean mean intercourse, or it can mean biological makeup
(05:01):
of an XY chromosome, an XX chromosome, XO, so on and so forth.
Really wondering about the young generation as well, because I know,
you know, older women who've maybe been raised in a patriarchal society where
they don't even know what their sexuality is because they've followed heterosexist norms,
(05:29):
I guess, in terms of perhaps servicing their husband.
And then, so they're one end of the spectrum, like learning to explore their sexuality.
And then you've got young people. I'm wondering if they're exposed to more of
a culture of performance rather than exploration because they're so saturated
(05:51):
with media images of self.
Again, it comes back to what was the conversation that was or wasn't being had early on?
Good research, especially more so out of the Netherlands, where sex is talked
about more openly, age-appropriate amounts, but over the course of the lifespan.
(06:14):
There's a lot less performative sex,
there's less sexual risk-taking, because there is an opportunity early on for
little ones to start to within the context of supportive safe relationship explore
what is my sexual self what is my sexual identity versus,
(06:35):
a lot of times folks kiddos in the U.S.
Who where there's an absence maybe there's more strict religious upbringing
and those conversations aren't allowed,
there's vacuum in which they're learning about their self they're not they're
actually not not learning who am I as an individual sexual being they're learning who.
That's not allowed to be talked about. So I'm going to take my cues from media,
(06:59):
from sexual imagery, i.e.
Pornography, and that's how it becomes more performative and goal-oriented.
And I, dare I say, still very patriarchal and focused on male pleasure and male
sexual arousal cycles versus female-bodied sexual arousal cycles.
Thank you. I mean, I know such a big topic and And I'm aware that about 46%
(07:25):
of the information about sexuality is incorrect.
The information that's out there on the internet. I know that there's only about
22 states that even mandate sex education in schools.
Also that there's this piece abstinence only sex education that's taught doesn't work.
(07:48):
That it results in more teenage pregnancies.
I would like to add, not only does absence-only focused education result in
more teenage pregnancies and more occurrences of STIs,
it also, again, has that covert ability to promote feelings of shame because
(08:09):
we are sexual beings from the beginning to the end of our lives.
Whether or not we express that or acknowledge that, it's always there.
And if I'm a kiddo or a teenager or a young adult, and I've been told that the
only message I get is that the only appropriate sexual expression is in the
context of a marriage or a committed relationship,
(08:30):
and I'm experiencing a lot of pleasure in having sex in other realms,
it's just the perfect recipe for shame, which oftentimes translates to the perfect
recipe for mental health.
Health issues and problematic sexual behavior sort
of self-critical piece or projecting onto
others you know shame's a very complex issue in
(08:52):
itself you mentioned pornography earlier and
in terms of actually looking at images
i think it's so important for young people
especially to understand that this is a business it's
an industry in terms of educating them
about being aroused like what happens in the brain chemically
(09:13):
like our executive functions get turned off
from and our arousal all the chemical flooding
kicks in and maybe they're turned on by images that they find disgusting and
then they feel shame such an important point that you bring up you know and
linking that with i think our need for more in-depth comprehensive sex education.
(09:38):
Is that our erotic selves and what turns us on is not always in alignment with
how we see ourselves to be in day-to-day life.
Again, that can create so much confusion and fear and shame that doesn't get spoken about, right?
And there's something that I'd like to speak to that she wrote,
(09:59):
Come As You Are. She really brought this to the forefront.
She's a sex educator. indicator, arousal non-concordance is something that happens,
which is where I have a, my body has a physiological arousal response.
But at the same time, that doesn't, my mind can be going, oh,
I don't like this. I don't feel okay about this. This is gross to me,
(10:20):
just kind of like you mentioned.
And that can happen, you know, obviously in sexual assault cases,
but also in viewing of pornography.
And then, but if we haven't known that, we haven't been given that information.
Then we're kind of left to our own devices to make up that maybe there's just
something wrong with us.
Seems like being proactive, educating our kids early on in healthier ways rather
(10:45):
than all these social, cultural,
fear-based ways just seem to be causing more problems the other end.
Like you said, it goes on a spectrum to shame to end mental illness in some
cases, which is really sad. dad. There's a program, I think Dr.
Sharon Lamb developed a program about sexual ethics for kids or high schoolers.
(11:10):
And what I loved about that is she brought in all these questions that were
answered through art and literature and history.
So it's like you bring a whole perspective into this question of how can we educate young people?
I'm curious what your thoughts are about the system and how we can,
(11:35):
as parents and educators and therapists, influence the system to change.
Well, I think I'm more inclined to think on a community-based or grassroots level.
And something I've been I found to be effective in my role as a sexual health
educator, bringing in and right now I'm speaking to more preteen and teenage
(12:00):
levels, bringing in some.
Teenagers, preteens who feel, who are kind of leaders in their community and
providing them with more education around sex and sexuality,
and then having them lead kind of a mentorship program for their peers.
If you try to bring in an adult who you don't really feel comfortable with to
(12:22):
provide this education when you haven't ever talked about it and you're,
you know, 16, plus you're just in that stage where you're like,
everything that adults say is stupid.
Bit like how much
is really going to sink in but you know the social
influence in the tribe of peers i
think is is a really good place to start so training up some of our our young
(12:45):
adults and our teenagers and preteens to be able to bring this information into
their schools into their social groups that's one way i think it could be really
effective that's excellent i love that that idea and that approach.
And I know even wonderful shows like Sex Education on Netflix,
if maybe parents and their teenagers could end up watching that together,
(13:09):
that could be a really rich way of learning together as well,
even if they can stomach sitting next to their parents watching it.
Well, I think that that's such an important piece too,
is like, what level of comfort do the adults have
that are having these conversations and or what
level of understanding do they have about the real
(13:32):
like biological physiological emotional responses and understanding of sexuality
in general and that's what I found to be true to with a lot of the parent teen
workshops I would run in the past is like I don't even know how to answer these questions or.
I haven't even had this kind of conversation with my
(13:55):
partner of 30 years how the hell am I supposed to have it with
my child exactly yes that's a
really excellent point to make and they're a paradox going on that kids are
actually more open about sexuality than many adults are yet at the same time
are they informed or are they getting the right information I guess the question is for you?
(14:20):
Is that what's part of the problem here?
In a lot of ways, they are more educated because they have access to the internet, which isn't always bad.
You know, it's not always I'm looking at pornography. I mean,
there's some great website resources out there for teenagers that focus on sexual health.
There's a lot of conversation or even just memes coming up on Instagram and
(14:44):
things Things like that that are really have been, I think, very healthy for
teenagers and their development of sexual self.
It is scarlet teen sex ed for the real world.
And that's a good resource? Very good resource, yeah.
For teenagers, you know, very LGBTQA plus, inclusive and aware, informed.
(15:11):
So what's your take on young people?
Most of them seem to be more interested in hooking up than they have conversations
about being exclusive, Whereas my generation, it's more people were in relationships or they cheated.
(15:32):
So there's this kind of more open approach to actually being in relationships
and sexual experimentation anyway.
Do you think that young people are equipped to handle that emotionally?
Unfortunately, you know, as is always, it really depends on the individual,
(15:53):
like, what is their, have they spent time getting really clear about what are my sexual values?
If it is within my sexual value set to have multiple partners and that feels in alignment with me,
then I have the ability to really check in on like an embodied level,
(16:17):
not just a conceptual sense of self.
But I know in my body when it feels right and when it doesn't feel right.
And I've been given more opportunities to, you know, when I'm getting cues that this doesn't fit for me.
And when I am just maybe trying to get more social acceptance or am overriding
(16:40):
what is really who I want to be.
Then I think you know if somebody has those skills then I don't personally as
a sex therapist think there's anything wrong with that I mean sexual exploration is a part of.
Of that developmental stage. For us, the shift, the cultural shift,
(17:01):
I mean, I just think that's part of the growth of the nation in general is becoming
more, you know, there's often that pendulum swing.
It's like more open to sexuality, less open to sexuality, you know?
And I feel like we're kind of, the pendulum has started to swing in this way
where polyamory and non-monogamous relationships are becoming kind of more mainstream.
(17:24):
And I'm curious as well how COVID is going to be affecting people's sexuality,
because I know some people actually use sex as a way of anxiety relief.
What's going to be the outcome of people being locked up and working through
their anxiety of the pandemic?
People been more intimate with
(17:47):
their partners have things been going well people who
who've perhaps been in domestic abuse situations
is it is it worse well their use
of pornography has that escalated into addiction i
i do know that i think there'll be a whole spectrum for
some people at least a lot of the the cisgendered
(18:08):
men i work with pornography pornography use has
really ramped up but i also think it's put
in perspective a lot for people about the need
for real connection physical contact so your
last question previously one thing that
i do notice with a lot of young adults and i wrote us young adults and teenagers
(18:28):
are having less physical sex now but more virtual sex right so more sexting
more webcam interactions but less physical contact. And that was true even before COVID.
Be interested to know more about all the neuroscience of that as oxytocin releases
(18:49):
when you look at images or vasopressin flooding or whatever goes on in the chemical part of the body.
What do we need to be educated around if we're having virtual sex?
And what are the legal legal ramifications of sharing those images.
(19:11):
Wondering, in your job, what do you think is the most important thing that should be normalized?
I mean, one thing that I'm coming back to in my mind as I'm kind of searching
around in there for the right answer,
I think there's multiple full right answers, what turns you on or what brings
(19:35):
you physical pleasure is not inherently bad.
Now your relationship to that movement towards that pleasure,
you know, there could, issues could develop around that.
The fact that you're obtaining pleasure from something isn't inherently bad. It's what you do with it.
I have another question in terms of disclosure sessions as well.
(19:58):
In America, I know that there's a different cultural approach.
Europeans might approach it slightly differently. do you reveal everything or
do you not reveal everything in a part in a committed partnership should I don't
know that I want to be the the leading voice in that not that I will be but.
(20:21):
Again it comes back like what is my value set and I work so much with each of
my clients on this okay what is my my set of values just in general for myself
in this life and then what is then then sexual values can be might be a different set,
you know, and the ones that are conflictual between those two lists,
(20:41):
that's really where, you know, you have to sort that out with with a therapist or a trusted other.
Because if maybe you have a one of my values is honesty with my partner,
you know, honesty and all my intimate relationships.
That's one of my number one values. and then one
of my sexual values is adventure and
(21:03):
novelty or something maybe you're
allowing yourself to have extramarital affairs within that
value set but it's not congruent with this one because you're lying to your
partner you know how do you sort that out I can't be the one who tells you you
have to make that decision for yourself like you know in that role as a therapist
I might say well how much distress is it causing you if it's causing you distress
(21:25):
then it's a problem You know, and that's usually the barometer.
Some people come in and it's like, yeah, I've had affairs, but I'm okay with that.
And I'm okay with not telling my partner, then it, my job as,
as a non-biased objective person.
Person in their life is to say, okay, well, if that feels in alignment with
you, then I'm going to follow that.
(21:46):
But if it's causing distress to you, you know, psychologically,
then it sounds like a change needs to be made.
In terms of problems and distress, what in your practice do you think your hope
is for your clients in reorganizing and reintegrating?
Do you feel like like everybody can achieve that?
(22:08):
Or do you think there's some pathological sexual problems that just can't be integrated?
There are times, and you and I being somatic trauma therapists,
there are times where it can present
as being chronic and pathological because
(22:30):
the level of early developmental trauma was so extreme that the ability one
to develop a strong sense of self has been severely compromised and the ability
to develop strong connections with others has been severely compromised.
Reworking those things takes some quite some time.
(22:50):
You know, there's an individual I work with right now that I think of who who
has been addressing his problematic sexual behavior for years and years and
really dedicated to group work, individual work, support groups,
bibliotherapy, reading books on and on.
And yet he's still being able to keep his value set in alignment with his sexual behavior. So it's.
(23:15):
Weekly challenge for him. And, you know, given his upbringing,
I just don't think that he has those neural networks that have been built up
or laid down as firmly yet to be able to do that.
I'm interested in understanding better the sexual addiction versus addiction
(23:36):
to drugs or alcohol or gambling,
is it one and the same or is it a different pattern of addiction?
This is a very hot topic with a lot of controversial ideas on both sides.
And I feel like I kind of walk this liminal space because I am a sex therapist
(23:58):
and that being a leading body around how to treat out of control sexual behavior
in the US doesn't believe in sex addiction, and I'm also a sex addiction therapist.
But the reality is that the jury is really still out on is this the same as
is this the same is the same thing happening neurochemically as other addictions.
(24:20):
There hasn't been any conclusive, repeatable research done to show that as of yet.
So hence why it hasn't been included in the DSM.
Yet it does appear for some people to to really mirror a process addiction.
There are folks in my practice, I would say, you know, this person really does
(24:41):
fit more of an addiction model.
And the addiction model is very, very helpful and fruitful for them.
But I don't use that as a blanket approach by any means.
Understanding and supporting people who may be challenged by this,
you know, How do we, not just therapists, but family members or friends,
how do we understand and support sex addiction?
(25:05):
I want to make another distinction.
Before I answer it, though, I want to make a distinction between,
you know, the terms I use, you know, sex addiction, or out of control sexual behavior.
Those are two models I'm very familiar with. One is an addiction disease based model.
The other is a sexual health model that still addresses people who have value conflicts.
(25:30):
Conflicts but there's also sexual offending
behavior right and and where somebody
is violating another person's boundaries sexual boundaries
and i want to make a distinction with that that
that is there can be overlap between these
three things anybody who has sexual.
(25:51):
Boundary violating behavior against another
person first and foremost needs to be seeking out
treatment for that and and
having learning accountability around that and ensuring
that there are protective things in place because i
think sometimes those things get really convoluted so when i think about
a family member coming in and learning
(26:13):
that their loved one has sex addiction or out
of control sexual behavior sometimes the first
thought is oh my gosh are my are my
nieces and nephews or my grandchildren safe around this person
and I just want to clear up that it is
not one and the same thing I think getting more
clear about like what is it that you're struggling with
(26:35):
can you be more you know and maybe that maybe that's
not the right conversation to be had with a family member but but going into
it without making assumptions and asking like it you know Is there anything
that I need to be concerned about with vulnerable populations in our family?
(26:56):
And if not, then just trying to be a more supportive presence and recognizing
that a lot of this is vast majority or every single one is rooted in shame in some way, sexual shame,
and also emotional dysregulation.
It is not a moral failing. healing and I think that's where you know people's
(27:18):
fear and then judgment comes in immediately when they hear those terms right and so.
I would just encourage people to be conscious and thoughtful about the fear and the judgment.
In this whole idea of clear definitions and, you know, being proactive in education
and getting the right information out there so we can have more of these kinds of conversations,
(27:43):
allow every generation to be a part of these conversations,
I think is a really healthy healthy way forward,
just, you know, being on the spectrum of this journey that can be a positive
thing is hopefully avoiding the problematic behaviors by having the education up front. Yes, yes, yes.
(28:07):
I love that. Like now, one of the things I've been feeling really excited and
motivated about within the work that I do is doing sex education for adults,
too, because we need it it as well yeah there's
so much that people don't know or just
even don't know how to say out loud absolutely and
(28:28):
I think even the older generation as
well like people in their 60s like polyamory is
pretty common there and also they have
a pretty high rate of sexually transmitted diseases one
of the highest in the nation yeah so thank
you so much I think we've covered a lot of ground and
posed a lot of questions and hopefully taken
(28:50):
the stigma out of some of these conversations so
much for having me trudy yeah thank you
this conversation thank you for listening to this inscape quest podcast with
me trudy howley if you like this show please subscribe on apple podcasts or
podbean and leave a comment you can also find me on instagram at inscape quest,
(29:14):
Thank you for listening and for your shares. Cheerio for now.
Music.
Hello podcast listeners. Thank you for tuning in today to the InScape Quest podcast show.
I am your host, Trudy Howley. Here I am talking with people about how they engage
with their relationships, work and passions.
Please subscribe and share the show with a friend.
(00:21):
And thanks to you, we can grow meaningful conversations together, one episode at a time.
Today I'm having a conversation with Cassandra Rusvold licensed clinical social
worker somatic trauma therapist and certified sex therapist we discuss what
(00:45):
might be needed in the world of sex education.
Hi, Cassandra. It's really great to have you here today. I'm really excited
to have this conversation.
You're one of the coolest people I know. Oh, thank you. You're pretty cool too.
(01:07):
Thanks for having me. Let's dive in. And I know that you have a thriving practice
and you deal a lot with problematic sexual behaviors.
I'm really curious, like from the perspective of sexual education and what people
are taught and what people think are normal behaviors around sex,
(01:29):
where are things going wrong here?
Something that's very important to me and I'm very passionate about.
I think, you know, the first thing that comes to mind is the lack of conversation
that is had around sex and sexuality, both within school systems.
Within family systems, but also within our culture at large,
(01:52):
unless it's talking about the extreme points of it, where it's not going well,
or where it's problematic, or glamorizing of sexuality, and not much about the like, in-betweens.
So I think that's kind of a general spot I'd like to start in working,
you know, as a sex therapist and with people around all kinds of different sexual topics,
(02:17):
sometimes even just starting the conversation with them to even have people
name what it is takes a long time and a lot of movement through discomfort because we don't have,
at least in this modern day culture in the United States, We don't have the
vocabulary to even have those conversations or the emotional regulation to do so.
(02:41):
So yeah, I think that that's one of the biggest pieces that I think speaks to
just the covert, you know, under the surface shame that we teach by not teaching.
With young people as well, in particular, that they can be so easily shamed
and they don't know even what their values are because they haven't had a chance
(03:05):
to explore life or explore their sexuality.
I'm curious if you could maybe define the difference between sexuality Sexuality
and sexual orientation, because I'm guessing it can change and be on a spectrum.
Sexual orientation is complicated itself.
(03:29):
So generally it means who are you attracted to?
But that doesn't have to mean who do I want to have sex with and who do I want
to live with and what group do I socialize, want to associate myself with?
And who do I fantasize about? It can be a combination of all those things.
I'm not sure if that makes sense, but Fritz Klein created this definition or
(03:53):
kind of chart to be able to look at what sexual orientation is.
Most people just think, oh, sexual orientation is who I want to have sex with,
but it's so much broader than that.
But generally, so just as a go-to for our conversation, it's who am I attracted to?
Sexuality is more about like, how do I experience myself as a sexual being?
(04:19):
That can be a solo experience or a shared experience.
As a sexual being doesn't always have to mean genitals coming together or even
the experience of genital pleasure,
but sexuality can be expressed in how we walk and how we speak and just a more
(04:39):
broad experience or expression of a sensual nature is part of what makes up sexuality.
And then I just want to add another piece, which I think is becoming more clear
with this amazing culture of millennium.
The word sex itself can mean mean intercourse, or it can mean biological makeup
(05:01):
of an XY chromosome, an XX chromosome, XO, so on and so forth.
Really wondering about the young generation as well, because I know,
you know, older women who've maybe been raised in a patriarchal society where
they don't even know what their sexuality is because they've followed heterosexist norms,
(05:29):
I guess, in terms of perhaps servicing their husband.
And then, so they're one end of the spectrum, like learning to explore their sexuality.
And then you've got young people. I'm wondering if they're exposed to more of
a culture of performance rather than exploration because they're so saturated
(05:51):
with media images of self.
Again, it comes back to what was the conversation that was or wasn't being had early on?
Good research, especially more so out of the Netherlands, where sex is talked
about more openly, age-appropriate amounts, but over the course of the lifespan.
(06:14):
There's a lot less performative sex,
there's less sexual risk-taking, because there is an opportunity early on for
little ones to start to within the context of supportive safe relationship explore
what is my sexual self what is my sexual identity versus,
(06:35):
a lot of times folks kiddos in the U.S.
Who where there's an absence maybe there's more strict religious upbringing
and those conversations aren't allowed,
there's vacuum in which they're learning about their self they're not they're
actually not not learning who am I as an individual sexual being they're learning who.
That's not allowed to be talked about. So I'm going to take my cues from media,
(06:59):
from sexual imagery, i.e.
Pornography, and that's how it becomes more performative and goal-oriented.
And I, dare I say, still very patriarchal and focused on male pleasure and male
sexual arousal cycles versus female-bodied sexual arousal cycles.
Thank you. I mean, I know such a big topic and And I'm aware that about 46%
(07:25):
of the information about sexuality is incorrect.
The information that's out there on the internet. I know that there's only about
22 states that even mandate sex education in schools.
Also that there's this piece abstinence only sex education that's taught doesn't work.
(07:48):
That it results in more teenage pregnancies.
I would like to add, not only does absence-only focused education result in
more teenage pregnancies and more occurrences of STIs,
it also, again, has that covert ability to promote feelings of shame because
(08:09):
we are sexual beings from the beginning to the end of our lives.
Whether or not we express that or acknowledge that, it's always there.
And if I'm a kiddo or a teenager or a young adult, and I've been told that the
only message I get is that the only appropriate sexual expression is in the
context of a marriage or a committed relationship,
(08:30):
and I'm experiencing a lot of pleasure in having sex in other realms,
it's just the perfect recipe for shame, which oftentimes translates to the perfect
recipe for mental health.
Health issues and problematic sexual behavior sort
of self-critical piece or projecting onto
others you know shame's a very complex issue in
(08:52):
itself you mentioned pornography earlier and
in terms of actually looking at images
i think it's so important for young people
especially to understand that this is a business it's
an industry in terms of educating them
about being aroused like what happens in the brain chemically
(09:13):
like our executive functions get turned off
from and our arousal all the chemical flooding
kicks in and maybe they're turned on by images that they find disgusting and
then they feel shame such an important point that you bring up you know and
linking that with i think our need for more in-depth comprehensive sex education.
(09:38):
Is that our erotic selves and what turns us on is not always in alignment with
how we see ourselves to be in day-to-day life.
Again, that can create so much confusion and fear and shame that doesn't get spoken about, right?
And there's something that I'd like to speak to that she wrote,
(09:59):
Come As You Are. She really brought this to the forefront.
She's a sex educator. indicator, arousal non-concordance is something that happens,
which is where I have a, my body has a physiological arousal response.
But at the same time, that doesn't, my mind can be going, oh,
I don't like this. I don't feel okay about this. This is gross to me,
(10:20):
just kind of like you mentioned.
And that can happen, you know, obviously in sexual assault cases,
but also in viewing of pornography.
And then, but if we haven't known that, we haven't been given that information.
Then we're kind of left to our own devices to make up that maybe there's just
something wrong with us.
Seems like being proactive, educating our kids early on in healthier ways rather
(10:45):
than all these social, cultural,
fear-based ways just seem to be causing more problems the other end.
Like you said, it goes on a spectrum to shame to end mental illness in some
cases, which is really sad. dad. There's a program, I think Dr.
Sharon Lamb developed a program about sexual ethics for kids or high schoolers.
(11:10):
And what I loved about that is she brought in all these questions that were
answered through art and literature and history.
So it's like you bring a whole perspective into this question of how can we educate young people?
I'm curious what your thoughts are about the system and how we can,
(11:35):
as parents and educators and therapists, influence the system to change.
Well, I think I'm more inclined to think on a community-based or grassroots level.
And something I've been I found to be effective in my role as a sexual health
educator, bringing in and right now I'm speaking to more preteen and teenage
(12:00):
levels, bringing in some.
Teenagers, preteens who feel, who are kind of leaders in their community and
providing them with more education around sex and sexuality,
and then having them lead kind of a mentorship program for their peers.
If you try to bring in an adult who you don't really feel comfortable with to
(12:22):
provide this education when you haven't ever talked about it and you're,
you know, 16, plus you're just in that stage where you're like,
everything that adults say is stupid.
Bit like how much
is really going to sink in but you know the social
influence in the tribe of peers i
think is is a really good place to start so training up some of our our young
(12:45):
adults and our teenagers and preteens to be able to bring this information into
their schools into their social groups that's one way i think it could be really
effective that's excellent i love that that idea and that approach.
And I know even wonderful shows like Sex Education on Netflix,
if maybe parents and their teenagers could end up watching that together,
(13:09):
that could be a really rich way of learning together as well,
even if they can stomach sitting next to their parents watching it.
Well, I think that that's such an important piece too,
is like, what level of comfort do the adults have
that are having these conversations and or what
level of understanding do they have about the real
(13:32):
like biological physiological emotional responses and understanding of sexuality
in general and that's what I found to be true to with a lot of the parent teen
workshops I would run in the past is like I don't even know how to answer these questions or.
I haven't even had this kind of conversation with my
(13:55):
partner of 30 years how the hell am I supposed to have it with
my child exactly yes that's a
really excellent point to make and they're a paradox going on that kids are
actually more open about sexuality than many adults are yet at the same time
are they informed or are they getting the right information I guess the question is for you?
(14:20):
Is that what's part of the problem here?
In a lot of ways, they are more educated because they have access to the internet, which isn't always bad.
You know, it's not always I'm looking at pornography. I mean,
there's some great website resources out there for teenagers that focus on sexual health.
There's a lot of conversation or even just memes coming up on Instagram and
(14:44):
things Things like that that are really have been, I think, very healthy for
teenagers and their development of sexual self.
It is scarlet teen sex ed for the real world.
And that's a good resource? Very good resource, yeah.
For teenagers, you know, very LGBTQA plus, inclusive and aware, informed.
(15:11):
So what's your take on young people?
Most of them seem to be more interested in hooking up than they have conversations
about being exclusive, Whereas my generation, it's more people were in relationships or they cheated.
(15:32):
So there's this kind of more open approach to actually being in relationships
and sexual experimentation anyway.
Do you think that young people are equipped to handle that emotionally?
Unfortunately, you know, as is always, it really depends on the individual,
(15:53):
like, what is their, have they spent time getting really clear about what are my sexual values?
If it is within my sexual value set to have multiple partners and that feels in alignment with me,
then I have the ability to really check in on like an embodied level,
(16:17):
not just a conceptual sense of self.
But I know in my body when it feels right and when it doesn't feel right.
And I've been given more opportunities to, you know, when I'm getting cues that this doesn't fit for me.
And when I am just maybe trying to get more social acceptance or am overriding
(16:40):
what is really who I want to be.
Then I think you know if somebody has those skills then I don't personally as
a sex therapist think there's anything wrong with that I mean sexual exploration is a part of.
Of that developmental stage. For us, the shift, the cultural shift,
(17:01):
I mean, I just think that's part of the growth of the nation in general is becoming
more, you know, there's often that pendulum swing.
It's like more open to sexuality, less open to sexuality, you know?
And I feel like we're kind of, the pendulum has started to swing in this way
where polyamory and non-monogamous relationships are becoming kind of more mainstream.
(17:24):
And I'm curious as well how COVID is going to be affecting people's sexuality,
because I know some people actually use sex as a way of anxiety relief.
What's going to be the outcome of people being locked up and working through
their anxiety of the pandemic?
People been more intimate with
(17:47):
their partners have things been going well people who
who've perhaps been in domestic abuse situations
is it is it worse well their use
of pornography has that escalated into addiction i
i do know that i think there'll be a whole spectrum for
some people at least a lot of the the cisgendered
(18:08):
men i work with pornography pornography use has
really ramped up but i also think it's put
in perspective a lot for people about the need
for real connection physical contact so your
last question previously one thing that
i do notice with a lot of young adults and i wrote us young adults and teenagers
(18:28):
are having less physical sex now but more virtual sex right so more sexting
more webcam interactions but less physical contact. And that was true even before COVID.
Be interested to know more about all the neuroscience of that as oxytocin releases
(18:49):
when you look at images or vasopressin flooding or whatever goes on in the chemical part of the body.
What do we need to be educated around if we're having virtual sex?
And what are the legal legal ramifications of sharing those images.
(19:11):
Wondering, in your job, what do you think is the most important thing that should be normalized?
I mean, one thing that I'm coming back to in my mind as I'm kind of searching
around in there for the right answer,
I think there's multiple full right answers, what turns you on or what brings
(19:35):
you physical pleasure is not inherently bad.
Now your relationship to that movement towards that pleasure,
you know, there could, issues could develop around that.
The fact that you're obtaining pleasure from something isn't inherently bad. It's what you do with it.
I have another question in terms of disclosure sessions as well.
(19:58):
In America, I know that there's a different cultural approach.
Europeans might approach it slightly differently. do you reveal everything or
do you not reveal everything in a part in a committed partnership should I don't
know that I want to be the the leading voice in that not that I will be but.
(20:21):
Again it comes back like what is my value set and I work so much with each of
my clients on this okay what is my my set of values just in general for myself
in this life and then what is then then sexual values can be might be a different set,
you know, and the ones that are conflictual between those two lists,
(20:41):
that's really where, you know, you have to sort that out with with a therapist or a trusted other.
Because if maybe you have a one of my values is honesty with my partner,
you know, honesty and all my intimate relationships.
That's one of my number one values. and then one
of my sexual values is adventure and
(21:03):
novelty or something maybe you're
allowing yourself to have extramarital affairs within that
value set but it's not congruent with this one because you're lying to your
partner you know how do you sort that out I can't be the one who tells you you
have to make that decision for yourself like you know in that role as a therapist
I might say well how much distress is it causing you if it's causing you distress
(21:25):
then it's a problem You know, and that's usually the barometer.
Some people come in and it's like, yeah, I've had affairs, but I'm okay with that.
And I'm okay with not telling my partner, then it, my job as,
as a non-biased objective person.
Person in their life is to say, okay, well, if that feels in alignment with
you, then I'm going to follow that.
(21:46):
But if it's causing distress to you, you know, psychologically,
then it sounds like a change needs to be made.
In terms of problems and distress, what in your practice do you think your hope
is for your clients in reorganizing and reintegrating?
Do you feel like like everybody can achieve that?
(22:08):
Or do you think there's some pathological sexual problems that just can't be integrated?
There are times, and you and I being somatic trauma therapists,
there are times where it can present
as being chronic and pathological because
(22:30):
the level of early developmental trauma was so extreme that the ability one
to develop a strong sense of self has been severely compromised and the ability
to develop strong connections with others has been severely compromised.
Reworking those things takes some quite some time.
(22:50):
You know, there's an individual I work with right now that I think of who who
has been addressing his problematic sexual behavior for years and years and
really dedicated to group work, individual work, support groups,
bibliotherapy, reading books on and on.
And yet he's still being able to keep his value set in alignment with his sexual behavior. So it's.
(23:15):
Weekly challenge for him. And, you know, given his upbringing,
I just don't think that he has those neural networks that have been built up
or laid down as firmly yet to be able to do that.
I'm interested in understanding better the sexual addiction versus addiction
(23:36):
to drugs or alcohol or gambling,
is it one and the same or is it a different pattern of addiction?
This is a very hot topic with a lot of controversial ideas on both sides.
And I feel like I kind of walk this liminal space because I am a sex therapist
(23:58):
and that being a leading body around how to treat out of control sexual behavior
in the US doesn't believe in sex addiction, and I'm also a sex addiction therapist.
But the reality is that the jury is really still out on is this the same as
is this the same is the same thing happening neurochemically as other addictions.
(24:20):
There hasn't been any conclusive, repeatable research done to show that as of yet.
So hence why it hasn't been included in the DSM.
Yet it does appear for some people to to really mirror a process addiction.
There are folks in my practice, I would say, you know, this person really does
(24:41):
fit more of an addiction model.
And the addiction model is very, very helpful and fruitful for them.
But I don't use that as a blanket approach by any means.
Understanding and supporting people who may be challenged by this,
you know, How do we, not just therapists, but family members or friends,
how do we understand and support sex addiction?
(25:05):
I want to make another distinction.
Before I answer it, though, I want to make a distinction between,
you know, the terms I use, you know, sex addiction, or out of control sexual behavior.
Those are two models I'm very familiar with. One is an addiction disease based model.
The other is a sexual health model that still addresses people who have value conflicts.
(25:30):
Conflicts but there's also sexual offending
behavior right and and where somebody
is violating another person's boundaries sexual boundaries
and i want to make a distinction with that that
that is there can be overlap between these
three things anybody who has sexual.
(25:51):
Boundary violating behavior against another
person first and foremost needs to be seeking out
treatment for that and and
having learning accountability around that and ensuring
that there are protective things in place because i
think sometimes those things get really convoluted so when i think about
a family member coming in and learning
(26:13):
that their loved one has sex addiction or out
of control sexual behavior sometimes the first
thought is oh my gosh are my are my
nieces and nephews or my grandchildren safe around this person
and I just want to clear up that it is
not one and the same thing I think getting more
clear about like what is it that you're struggling with
(26:35):
can you be more you know and maybe that maybe that's
not the right conversation to be had with a family member but but going into
it without making assumptions and asking like it you know Is there anything
that I need to be concerned about with vulnerable populations in our family?
(26:56):
And if not, then just trying to be a more supportive presence and recognizing
that a lot of this is vast majority or every single one is rooted in shame in some way, sexual shame,
and also emotional dysregulation.
It is not a moral failing. healing and I think that's where you know people's
(27:18):
fear and then judgment comes in immediately when they hear those terms right and so.
I would just encourage people to be conscious and thoughtful about the fear and the judgment.
In this whole idea of clear definitions and, you know, being proactive in education
and getting the right information out there so we can have more of these kinds of conversations,
(27:43):
allow every generation to be a part of these conversations,
I think is a really healthy healthy way forward,
just, you know, being on the spectrum of this journey that can be a positive
thing is hopefully avoiding the problematic behaviors by having the education up front. Yes, yes, yes.
(28:07):
I love that. Like now, one of the things I've been feeling really excited and
motivated about within the work that I do is doing sex education for adults,
too, because we need it it as well yeah there's
so much that people don't know or just
even don't know how to say out loud absolutely and
(28:28):
I think even the older generation as
well like people in their 60s like polyamory is
pretty common there and also they have
a pretty high rate of sexually transmitted diseases one
of the highest in the nation yeah so thank
you so much I think we've covered a lot of ground and
posed a lot of questions and hopefully taken
(28:50):
the stigma out of some of these conversations so
much for having me trudy yeah thank you
this conversation thank you for listening to this inscape quest podcast with
me trudy howley if you like this show please subscribe on apple podcasts or
podbean and leave a comment you can also find me on instagram at inscape quest,
(29:14):
Thank you for listening and for your shares. Cheerio for now.
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