A Conversation with Beth Magnetic

Beth Magnetic, host of the YouTube channel "Death by Patriarchy," joins Ian and Jim for a fascinating discussion about the dark side of patriarchy, the Church's approach to mental health, and true crime stories in and out of the Church. 

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside

(00:18):
Out.
My name is Ian Wilkes.
I'm here with the delightful Mr.
Jim Bennett.
Hello Jim.

SPEAKER_01 (00:25):
Hello Ian.
You are equally delightful, ifnot more so.
Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 (00:33):
Yes, thank you.
It's great to be with you again.
I always love doing thesepodcasts again to remind our
listeners that our podcast isdesigned to help people, support
people, whether you're in thechurch or at the church,
navigating issues and trying tofind a safe space to understand
and discuss and learn about someof the challenges that active

(00:53):
members go through andpostmortems go through.
I think this is the place.
I think we are the only true andliving podcast upon the face of
the whole earth.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01):
With which the Lord is well pleased.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04):
The Lord is well pleased.
And as you know, we've had someamazing guests over the last two
years.
We're coming up in April 2025.
I think that marks two-yearmilestone of the Inside Out
podcast series.
Yeah.
And we're still going.
And we're growing, which isexciting.
And this week, we have a veryspecial guest on our podcast

(01:27):
indeed.
We have here with us Beth.
magnetic hello beth

SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
hi thanks for having me guys

SPEAKER_02 (01:35):
it's a real pleasure to meet with you and your last
name is we've got it as magneticand i love that name

SPEAKER_00 (01:41):
so i uh had a business before i came into the
ex-mormon space and it wasmagnetic branding method and
magnetic entrepreneurs andwhatnot so when i got divorced i
just took my business name as mystage name, basically, for all
of

SPEAKER_02 (01:58):
us.
I am impressed with that.
I wish I'd have done that.
Wilkes is a little bit boring,but I'd love to have a really
cool last name.
And hopefully that name draws orattracts good people into your

SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
life.
And it doesn't attract peopleI'm not compatible with, so it's
perfect.

SPEAKER_02 (02:18):
Good for you.
Jim, we should change the lastname, eh?

SPEAKER_01 (02:22):
If that

SPEAKER_02 (02:22):
attracts...

SPEAKER_01 (02:23):
I'm thinking Ian Electric for you, and I could be
Jim Spasmodic, but that's not asexciting.

SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
I think people will find Ian Electric a bit
shocking.

SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
There you go.

SPEAKER_02 (02:36):
A little off the nose there.
That was my joke of the week.
I'm here all week.
But, Beth, it's a real delightto have you with us.
So, as we discussed earlier, ifyou are comfortable, just give
us a bit about your background,you know, growing up.
your earlier years in thechurch, your experience in the
church, and bring us up to whereyou are right now.

(02:59):
And from that point, we willhave a back and forward
conversation.
Very keen to learn a bit moreabout you.
And then at some point in ourconversation, we'd love to talk
to you about patriarchy in thechurch and also talk to you
about Mormon crime.

(03:19):
Maybe that's the right termphrase to use.
And specifically, if we can atleast include what I would
describe or use as affinitycrime, something that I've had
to deal with, sadly, as a bishopin a ward and on a stake
presidency, we had to deal withthose issues.
And we'd love to get into thatpart of the conversation with

(03:41):
you a bit later on in thepodcast.
So give us a bit of your story,your background, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 (03:46):
So I was born in the covenant.
I was born in East Utah.
And when I was two, my parentsseparated and I moved down to
Arizona where I lived with mymom while she got her nursing
degree.
And then when I was five, theytried to get back together for a
little bit and it did not workout.

(04:10):
And my parents separated ordivorced when I was And then
within six weeks, my momremarried, uh, in the temple to
another man who was my stepdadforever.
My mom and my stepdad are thekind of people who they were at
the preparing a people eventthat Lori and Chad Daybell were

(04:32):
at down here in Arizona.
They are preppers.
They are hardcore, uh, Chad andLori Vallow or Lori Vallow and
Chad Daybell, uh, in the famousloin fire text messages between
them.
They talk about a man namedBruce Porter who was giving them
the stink eye as these twomarried people were way too

(04:55):
affectionate for what theyshould have been.
And Bruce Porter is somebodythat my parents tried to get me
to go listen to when I wasleaving the church.
because he does these eight-hourseminars every Saturday
explaining to you why historicissues in the church are not

(05:16):
actually issues.
And so anyway, I did not go downthat road, but my family is very
much in that crepper space wherethey've taken their Mormonism to
a whole new tier.
And so I grew up in a home whereI was...
definitely abused, very muchisolated for long periods of

(05:39):
time.
As a teenager, I washomeschooled, but my parents
would grab on me for a month ata time, and I would not be
allowed to leave my bedroom fora month at a time except to go
to the bathroom or eat or dochores.
It was a very, you know, it was,if Ruby Frankie, if that

(06:02):
capacity had existed it wouldhave been very much like the
frankies so anyway i experiencedthe radicalized but still in the
church version of mormonismgrowing up and so lots of people
who did not experience mormonismthat way you know they'll be
like oh no that's not truethat's not that's not what we
believe that's not what we dobut there is certainly a a

(06:25):
faction inside the LDS churchthat certainly does practice it
that way.
And so anyway, I also lived inAnchorage with my ex-husband
when Israel Keyes, the serialkiller, was caught and we found
out that his parents wereMormon.
And then we also were down herein Arizona when Chad and Lori

(06:46):
were arrested and And I was inRexburg when there was the
hearing for David Kaneko, wholived with the mummified remains
of his daughter and wife foryears before they were
discovered.
And so I just had closeproximity to a lot of
crime-based issues.

(07:08):
My dad that my mom separatedfrom, they got divorced in 1993,
which was the year that JeffreyDahmer was born.
arrested and everything cameout.
And my dad had said that he wasgoing to be the next Jeffrey
Dahmer.
And he would be killing my wholefamily and cannibalizing us and

(07:31):
making Jeffrey Dahmer look mildwas the phrase that he used.
So I just started, yeah, as asix-year-old paying attention to
crime and then thing after thingafter thing in my life.
Just made it so that it'ssomething that's been at the
forefront of my mind and justlooking at why are these things

(07:52):
happening.
And so at one point, during LoriDaybell's trial in Idaho, I
ended up...
just doing a bunch of TikToks.
They didn't do video of hertrial.
So I would listen to the audioand then I would report on, this
is what they said in thistestimony.

(08:12):
This is what they said in thistestimony.
And my TikTok, you know, got16,000 new followers in less
than a week with that.
And so then I ended up doing agood amount of content around
Mormonism and crime.
So that's where we're at.

SPEAKER_02 (08:29):
That's extraordinary.
When did you, just going back toyour early years in the church,
you know, when you were going tothe church, what was your
experience with church, servingin the church, leaders of the
church in your earlier years?

SPEAKER_00 (08:45):
I loved the church.
I was so devoted to the church.
I believed it heart and soul.
I struggled to be the, you know,devout young adult that I was
supposed to be, where I was anold maid because I got married

(09:06):
at 23 instead of 18 and a half.
And so everybody was just alwayskind of like, well, what's wrong
with her?
What's wrong with her, right?
And anyway, I ended up gettingmarried at 23.
I had two kids while I was stillin the church.
In 2014, I read the CES letter.

(09:27):
And that was when it all justcame undone for me.
I believed the church was truein the morning and then by
dinner time, I was like, well,whole life is a lie.
So then I was in a mixed faithmarriage for eight years and we
got divorced.

(09:48):
We separated in 2022 at thatpoint.
And I have The two kids, I havea son who is severely disabled.
He has autism, but he also hasPANDAS, which is when strep goes
to the brain.
And there's damage to the brainand the basal ganglia.

(10:11):
It causes encephalitis in thebrain.
So a lot of people will saylike, oh, this is mental
illness, not Mormonism.
But as somebody who lives withand deals with mental illness uh
in a profound way in my lifeevery day and gets very ignorant
to say that there we can justdismiss everything as mental

(10:34):
illness in these cases yeah

SPEAKER_02 (10:39):
yeah what was it um two thoughts listening to your
story is extraordinary actuallyand i'm so sorry you had to go
through all this pain andanguish all those different
experiences i Each one is astory in its own right, I'm
sure.
What was the thing, if any, wasthere one particular thing in
the CES letter that reallychanged how you viewed the

(11:01):
church and actually was thecatalyst of changing your
beliefs in the church?
And the second thought I've got,question is, could you speak to
the relationship between mentalhealth and those members who
absolutely commit uh withexactness and go sometimes

(11:28):
extreme and will go above andbeyond and become quite
fundamentalist at times wherethey take everything literally
very biblical old testamentapproach you talked about
prepping you know where thechurch teaches some things and i
think for the most part churchteachers are We could argue
against this, but generally oncertain themes and topics can be

(11:52):
quite moderate in my experience.
But where members can take thoseseemingly moderate or intended
moderate teachings and turn theminto something quite extreme and
the relationship between thatand mental health, if that makes
sense.
So what was one thing or acouple of things or whatever it
was in this that actuallytriggered your change in your

(12:13):
faith?
And the second question is,What's your thoughts and
experiences and insights intothe relationship between the
Mormon doctrine, the culture ofthe church, and its impact on
mental health?
Could you speak to those twothings?

SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
Yeah.
So with your first question,what was it that really was the
catalyst?
So it, for me, began when I waspregnant with my daughter.
And I...
was sitting there thinking, ifGod is a perfect parent, why is
it that God can't handle mebeing in his presence if I'm not

(12:53):
perfect?
And I could never imagine notwanting my child around me
because of this, because sheisn't perfect.
So that began it.
And then I was in therapy rightafter she was born, and my
therapist handed me a bookcalled Toxic Parents to read.
And I ended up reading that andthere was a section where they

(13:19):
really spell out, what does anabuser do?
And it said an abuser willcontrol their victim down to the
underwear that they're allowedto wear.
And I immediately just startedlaughing because I was like, oh,
so if the church was a person,they'd be abusive.
And so I had had, you know,these kind of little
experiences.

(13:39):
I was going to the temple overand over and over trying to feel
something and I felt nothing.
And so all of these littlethings were putting cracks in my
shelf.
And then suddenly my friendposts online about how Joseph
Smith practiced polyandry.

(14:01):
And I go to Fair Mormon and Iread Fair Mormon's explanation
and I was like, huh, that's nota very good dismissal of this
issue.
And so I ended up joining theMormon Stories podcast Facebook
group.
And somebody was mentioning theCES letter.
And so I read the CES letter.

(14:23):
In the CES letter, yes, therewas the whole onslaught of thing
after thing after thing.
It's like, you might have heardof all of these things
separately, but when you seethem together, it's crazy.
But the thing that really did mein was the book of Abraham,
where it is...
without question, not whatJoseph Smith claimed it to be.

(14:45):
And so then it just completelymakes it so that it's a lot
harder to believe in all of theother things that were
supposedly true that heprophesied or his other
translations.
And so if his other translationsaren't real, then how can we
believe in the Book of Mormon?
So yeah, so there's that.

(15:07):
And then the mental healthaspect.
So when it comes to mentalillness and Mormonism.
I think that there certainly isa case to be made for does
Mormonism cause mental illness?
Perhaps.
I think it's much more likelythat people have mental illness
and their mental illness latcheson to some of the problematic

(15:30):
parts of Mormonism, theauthoritarian views of
Mormonism, the perfectobedience.
attitudes within Mormonism.
I remember going to BYU-Idaho,and they had this sign that
said, the spirit of Ricks isperfect obedience.
And so when you start to lookfor perfect obedience and

(15:52):
scrupulosity, people with OCDwill become scrupulous, and they
will try to be the perfectMormon.
We also talk about further lightand knowledge.
We also talk about, you know,being the best person that you
can and that perfectionism Weshould become perfect.
And perfect is when you'recomplete.

(16:13):
All right.
Well, when am I complete?
So it's these people who areconstantly searching for the
next layer of Mormonism.
Line up online, precept uponprecept.
And their mental illness latchesonto it in such a dangerous way.
So we end up having somebody.
There is not a darn thing inLori Vallow's story that I have
not been able to find a historicor doctrinal explanation for.

(16:39):
So while most people are goingto read about demonic possession
in the Bible and be like, okay,that's wild.
I don't want to have anything todo with that.
If Lori believes 100% with everyfiber of her being that demonic
possession is real and her sonstarts to have behavior issues

(16:59):
and she goes to her doctors andthere's no explanation that her
doctors can give her, then she'sgoing to start to look for other
explanations for it.
And so she started to look toenergy healing and she started
to look to the church and shefound explanations.
So there's no way for us toactually know this or prove this

(17:20):
because JJ is gone, but LoriVallow's son, he was autistic.
And my son is also autistic.
And he has something calledPANDAS, which stands for
Pediatric Acute OnsetNeuropsychiatric Disorders
Associated with StreptococcalInfection.
So what happens is a child willcontract strep, strep throat.

(17:42):
And we hear all the time thatlike strep can turn to scarlet
fever.
It can turn to rheumatic fever,which damages the heart.
What the AAP has onlyacknowledged as recently as
December 16th, 2024 is thatpediatric acute neuro pandas,
that it can actually settle inthe brain.

(18:04):
Strep can settle in the brainand it can cause dramatic
behavioral and mental healthissues.
It can cause psychosis andhallucinations.
It is hugely problematic.
And so it's estimated that by2020, the Pandas Network and
other organizations, that up to30% of kids who have been

(18:26):
diagnosed with autism also havepandas.
And so it's entirely possiblethat JJ had this brain
encephalitis that my son alsohas.
So the reason that I think thatthis is really important to
discuss is the fact that pandashistorically...

(18:48):
was believed to be things likedemonic possession and so we
have doctors the aap untildecember 2024 did not believe
that pandas existed and so loricould have been going to doctor
after doctor after doctor afterdoctor for like we did for five
years and been told that thereis absolutely nothing you know

(19:11):
nothing wrong with jj above andbeyond oh he has fetal alcohol
syndrome perhaps and autism.
And this is just autism.
Just deal with it.
So Lori thinking this is justautism.
She starts to, uh, look for her.
Her mom gut is telling her, no,this is not just autism.

(19:32):
There's something above andbeyond autism.
So she looks to the sources thatshe has at her disposal to
figure out what is going on andwhat's going on.
Um, If you look at it from areligious perspective, okay,
demonic possession.
So we need to do things to castout demons.
We have energy work, and energywork will help me to get rid of

(19:55):
the evil spirits because it'snot just autism.
And she knows that in her gut.
So if we have this as just onemental illness, and then we have
millions and millions of membersof the church, And they are
looking to priesthood blessings.
They're looking to thescriptures.
They're looking to churchdoctrine.

(20:16):
They're looking to all of theseother things within the church
to explain these mentalillnesses or make them a go away
or just deal with them in anyway.
We can end up in some reallydangerous scenarios.
We also know that Ruby Frankie,she also was deciding that her
children were possessed bydemons.

(20:37):
So this is not a one-off thing.
And while the average person isgoing to look at all of this and
they're not going to decide thattheir child's possessed, enough
people are and there areincredibly dangerous outcomes.
Or we have the Caneco familyfrom Rexburg, Idaho, where they

(20:58):
developed a collective psychosistogether based on believing that
Jesus was about to return.
And the mother and daughterstarved themselves to death.
And then the dad lived withtheir bodies for a year and a
half and three years.
So these are not just likeinnocent little, you know,

(21:19):
mental illness plus Mormonism islike, oh, it's a little rough.
The church is not doing anythingto make it so that we're like
actually dealing with andidentifying mental illness.
they're presenting themselves asthe solution and the results,
it's deadly.

SPEAKER_01 (21:38):
You know, I'm listening to you and my heart is
just breaking, especially since,I mean, I don't know if we did
an episode with my son Samuel,who was a missionary and was
diagnosed with scrupulositywhile he was on his mission.
I talked about things likehaving to He ended up talking to

(22:02):
his therapist about the fact,his therapist said, well, maybe
you should pray only two times aday instead of 15 times a day.
And he was like, I can't dothat.
If I do that, I'm going to, youknow, he had this terrible
experience with a missionpresident that was telling him
that this scandal of the MTCthat he wasn't involved in.

(22:24):
was enough that he had to studyall these scriptures about
repentance and come and talk tohim every week.
And if he didn't, you know, hewould have to be sent home even
though he hadn't done anything.
And when he came home for COVID,he was out during the COVID
pandemic and he came home afterabout seven months and he was
covered from head to toe incystic acne.

(22:46):
just physically manifesteditself like that.
And he is still active in thechurch.
He's a student down at BYU, buthe's become a huge advocate for
mental health.
And the way you're talking here,I mean, I would love to have him
have a conversation with youbecause what you're saying I

(23:07):
think is so important because sooften we conflate mental health
with weakness.
particularly in the church.
We conflate it and we say, okay,well, if you're feeling this
way, there's something wrongwith you spiritually.
You're just not righteousenough.
And that just feeds into thescrupulosity.

(23:27):
You know, I've told the story onthis podcast too.
When I was on my mission, Iremember listening to a talk by
Gene R.
Cook.
I think I've got the middleinitial right.
It's the same talk where hetalks about sitting on an
airplane with Mick Jagger.
which made me come home from mymission and break all my Rolling
Stones records.

(23:48):
And when I told that to my son,he said, oh, I didn't know you
had scrupulosity too.
But in the same talk, he talksabout, okay, I want to talk
about depression and I want totalk about despair.
And I went, oh, okay, this willbe helpful to me because I've
struggled with depression andanxiety my whole life.
And in this talk, he startstalking about despair and he

(24:10):
quotes the Book of Mormon quote,where it says, despair cometh
because of iniquity.
And I thought, well, thatdoesn't help me much.
So my problem, the reason I'mdepressed is because I'm wicked.
And that's essentially been, Ithink, and correct me if I'm
wrong, but that's kind of been apervasive message over the

(24:33):
history of the church.
And it's only recently, reallyrelatively recently that where
the church has sort of startedto come around to the idea that
mental health is a real thing.
Depression is a real thing.
If you are depressed and anxiousand bipolar and dealing with
real genuine mental healthconditions, it's not because you

(24:57):
are wicked, but the church hasnever really sort of disavowed.
This is the way the church dealswith all of its mistakes.
It just quietly changes andhopes you don't notice that the
history is really quitedifferent.
And the result is that thecontinued influence of these

(25:19):
past teachings that we no longerbelieve continue to survive and
even thrive in some quarters.
I mean, has that been yourexperience?
Does that sound like somethingthat you've encountered as
you've dealt with mental healthissues in the church?

SPEAKER_00 (25:33):
Absolutely.
So Bruce R.
McConkie in...
Mormon doctrine.
If you looked up psychology inthe first edition of it, it said
something like Satanism.
It was so directly suggestingthat it is a satanic thing to

(25:53):
get help for your mentalillness.
And we see this in so many ofthese different Mormon true
crime cases where somebody ishaving a clear-cut Mental health
crisis.
And instead of somebody goingand checking themselves into a
mental health clinic, they arelocking themselves in their

(26:15):
houses and reading more and morescriptures.
They are studying more devoutly.
They are making sure that theyhave read every single, you
know, talk from generalconference and they're doubling
down on their belief system.
Sometimes, I mean, we do see insome of these where they say,
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (27:03):
When I was serving as a bishop in Scotland, within
a week, within the first week,two weeks, there was members
coming to me with a whole rangeof issues and problems, mental,
psychological.
There was issues relating tohistorical sexual abuse.
And as a young bishop, I wascompletely out of my depth.

(27:26):
I just...
I felt completely overwhelmedand frustrated that I didn't
have the skills, the training,the experience to deal with, I
would say, most of the issues,or many of the issues.
I just didn't have the mentalcapacity to understand them, let

(27:48):
alone provide some treatment.
And my default was through theinsufficient training that we
got every three months with thestate presidency, every three
months the bishops meet, withthe state presidency.
You go through this, it's like atraining meeting every three
months.
And these issues would come up.
And the best advice I got atthat time was that encourage

(28:10):
people to pray, pray more.
There was a reference to what Ithink Jim referenced earlier,
and I was listening to that.
And that's from a scripture,Moroni 10.22 in the Book of
Mormon, which says, reads thatdespair cometh because of
iniquity.

(28:30):
and was suggested to me as abishop that perhaps the
individual is feeling this waybecause of the sinning and
therefore call them torepentance.
I mean, talk about piling onadditional issues and pain and
anxiety.
It's just extraordinary.
So the default was for the, youknow, back then, and I don't
know how much it's changed rightnow.

(28:51):
I still think the bishops, well,I know the bishops even today
get very little training in thisarea.
And even now I attempt to try todeal with these very serious
mental health issues without anytraining.
And in fact, can cause damage.
I was so afraid to, and soconcerned about adding to the
individual's problems.

(29:11):
The best I could do is ask themto pray fast, read the
scriptures, what you weresaying, kind of double down, I
guess, in terms of readingchurch material.
Yeah.
And yes, I regret and I'mashamed to say that on a couple
of occasions felt inspired,putting my fingers about, to

(29:35):
gently, I was never harsh onthis, gently called a couple of
people to repentance because Ifelt at that time through the
gift of discernment, if you'veheard of that.
Bishop's supposed to have thisgift of discernment and I
thought I had the gift ofdiscernment.
In hindsight, I didn't.
It was A lot of it wasguesswork.

(29:56):
And so my impressions were thatif this person repents, that
their mental health issues willgo away because it's tied to
iniquity.
And it struggles so much withthat in regards to church
leadership.
Jim's talked about the missionpresent there and his son going

(30:16):
through that.
And what's your thoughts andinsights, experience in the lack
of training that leaders have?
in regards to dealing withmental health, because I've
shared my experience.
What's your thoughts on that,Beth?
And also, could you talk to usafter that a bit about your
crime, Mormon crime podcast?

(30:36):
And could we get into a littlebit of the Mormon crime stuff?
Because I have some insightsinto that as a bishop and state
presidency.
You know, from that perspective,Jim's probably got his thoughts
and insights into that as well.
It'd be good to get hisinsights.
ideas.
But if you could talk to usabout that.
Uh, and again, that, thatcomponent there, that patriarchy
component, how that plays intoas well.

(30:57):
And again, I got a few insightsinto that as well from my own,
my own experience as a, as a, asa Bishop and state presidency.
But what's your insights, yourconcerns, issues in regards to
leaders of the church that don'thave the experience or the
training vulnerable people, veryvulnerable people, uh, open up

(31:20):
their entire lives to theseleaders, and often the leader
can make the problem worse.
Can you provide any thoughts andany recommendations?
Because I believe, I can't speakfor Jim, but I believe leaders
of the church at a certain levellisten to this podcast.
I believe it.
I've heard something over thelast few days since Jim and I

(31:41):
spoke where I believe that thispodcast, and others, not the
only one, that are beinglistened to by leaders.
So but keep in mind that therecould be church leaders
listening to this.
So what's your thoughts,insights, concerns, and any
recommendations that you mighthave for leaders and how they
deal with mental health?

SPEAKER_00 (32:03):
So I'm going to kind of just lead with one of my
biggest concerns when it comesto this.
So if somebody goes to theirbishop and talks about a mental
health issue that they have,currently, they are driving them
to mental health professionals,but mental health professionals
that are believers in thechurch.

(32:24):
And so we're not going to havesomebody who's scrupulous being
guided or out of Mormonism ifthat's somewhere healthier for
them to be.
I actually went and I saw an LDStherapist in my process of
leaving the church.
And she just wanted to tell meto read a bunch of church books
to deal with the things that Iwas having to deal with.

(32:47):
And so until the church candrive its members somewhere
where they're going to actuallyhelp them with whatever the
issue is, regardless of theoutcome for their activity in
the church, I don't think thatwe can have a real, we can't
actually really address that.
what's happening here becausesomebody who is going to lock

(33:10):
themselves in their house andstarve themselves to death
because they they want tosanctify and purify themselves
because they know that that'swhat fasting does according to
scripture according to prophetswe can't guide that person out
of the church where they mightbe safer or we can't guide them

(33:31):
to a less active iteration of itwe also have have people who
like jim was saying your sonjust felt like he needed to pray
more and more and more and moreto deal with these things
because that's what scripturesaid and so uh i think that the
the solution of yeah we'll sendyou to mental health

(33:52):
professionals who tell you tojust be more devout it's not
it's not a solution um I thinkyou really highlighted some of
the issues, Ian, that we'resending these people in for
things that are mental healthissues into bishops.
And these bishops are not mentalhealth professionals by any

(34:14):
stretch of the imagination.
They are there to facilitate andhelp organize and run this
community.
That's what they're there for.
They're there to providespiritual guidance, and we will
label things as spiritualguidance that are actually
mental health issues.
So many of the physical healthissues that are causing hormonal

(34:35):
or other issues that present asmental health issues.
So for example, my son who hasan infection in his brain, or I
was diagnosed with bipolar 2,but then once I got my hormones
treated, turned out I producezero testosterone.
I just do not producetestosterone, DHEA, or cortisol

(34:58):
at all.
And so now that I take all ofthose medications, I have zero
bipolar symptoms.
And so it's this reallyinteresting thing where we're
labeling everything as spiritualwhen people might need a doctor.
They might need an actual doctorto do some blood work.
And that would magically makeall these issues disappear.

(35:22):
Yeah.
And so until the church canadmit that they are not the
answer for every single thing inyour life, and they start to
talk about this openly, and theystart to address mental health
from the pulpit at generalconference outright, not like
the, we're going to tiptoearound it kind of thing.
We're going to mention, yes, weknow some people are depressed.

(35:45):
Until they come out and theysay, please, Go find a doctor
and get your blood work done,right?
Until we're actually doing thesethings, they are not doing
enough.
We also really need them toadmit that they're not the
end-all be-all.
Yes, they have thought of andcreated so many things for

(36:06):
community.
They've created opportunitiesfor fulfillment.
They've done a lot of reallywonderful things.
But this is not their space.
And they need to maybe justactually acknowledge that there
are some mental illnesses thatare going to look like things
like demonic possession.

(36:26):
And if you are seeing somethingthat looks like demonic
possession and you think thatyour child might be possessed,
do not go looking to the storyof Newell K.
Whitney, who was the firstmiracle of the church.
when Joseph Smith went to himright after the church was
started, I think the same day,and cast out a demon, right?

(36:49):
So somebody who has gone superhard into Mormonism, they've
read this story about Newell K.
Whitney and how he was jumpingup to rafters and he was
throwing people off of him.
And they're like, oh mygoodness, this sounds like what
my child has going on.
My child must have a demon.
So I need to try and create thesame kind of miracle that Joseph

(37:10):
Smith did.
So admitting it.
Admitting the problem is a hugepart of this.
And then when it comes to Mormoncrime, I would say the vast
majority of the crazy crimesthat I've been able to talk
about.
So I've been doing Mormon truecrime on TikTok and YouTube for

(37:30):
a couple of years.
I'm actually in the process oftransitioning it over to death
by patriarchy so that I canexpand outside of just Mormonism
and talk about things likeeugenics in Nazi Germany.
but um and i can go ghosthunting and not have to go to a
mormon location right so i'm i'mpivoting right now but for two

(37:53):
years i have been talking aboutmormonism and crime some of the
really interesting things thati've realized though is that a
lot of people will uhimmediately be like oh we don't
teach that in the lds churchwell the lds church is not all
of mormonism there are hundredsof different iterations of
Mormonism out there.

(38:14):
And even within yourcongregations, there could be
somebody like Ruby Franke, orChad Daybell, or Bob Birchtold,
who kidnapped Jan Broberg.
Well,

SPEAKER_01 (38:32):
just quickly, I worked down at Tuacon and worked
with Jan Broberg.
I consider her a very goodfriend.

SPEAKER_00 (38:39):
I consider her a very good friend.
I love her.

SPEAKER_01 (38:42):
Oh, she's delightful.
Is she still running the bed andbreakfast in Cedar City?

SPEAKER_00 (38:49):
I don't think she's running a bed and breakfast
right now.
She's taking care of her mom whohas Alzheimer's right

SPEAKER_01 (38:54):
now.
Oh, okay.
She gave me a copy of her bookbefore it was published.

SPEAKER_00 (39:01):
Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 (39:02):
I read through that.
Ian, do you know the whole JanBroberg story?
Do not.
No, I'm learning this.
She was kidnapped by a member ofher ward that was the best
friend of her whole family.
And he convinced her that shewas an alien and that she had to
have a child with him in orderto repopulate another planet.

(39:24):
And it was nuts.
I mean, there's a Netflixdocumentary called Abducted in
Plain Sight.
that I recommend you go watch.
And there was also adramatization of it.
What was this series called?

SPEAKER_00 (39:38):
A Friend of the Family on Peacock.
A Friend of the

SPEAKER_01 (39:40):
Family, yeah.
I mean, it's terrifying, andit's everything, Beth, you're
talking about.
It's melding all of that Mormonstuff into predatory behavior,
and it's just absolutelyterrifying.

SPEAKER_00 (39:55):
Yeah, and I was able to talk to Jan recently, about
the Mormon aspect of it that youdon't see in either of those
shows.
Uh, and some of the things thatpeople don't think about is that
she's this 12 year old who hasbeen told that God lives on a
planet near Kolob, that, uh,that, that there are angels and
there are planets without.
And, um, that, uh, you know,Jesus was basically a half

(40:21):
human, half God, or, and wethink that God is somebody who
lives on another planet.
So alien, uh, that was born intothis world and he had to save
this world.
So she then is being told thatshe is supposed to give birth to
a new Messiah for anotherplanet.
And so it does fit within thisframe of Mormonism that nobody
talks about because it's not themainstream presentation of

(40:45):
Mormonism, but the pieces andthe roots for the radicalized
version of Mormonism that leadsto these crimes.
It's there.
You can find it.
you can find the roots of thesecrimes within mainstream
Mormonism.
And she had told me that, youknow, he would come in, Bea

(41:08):
would come in and he would havea newspaper and it would have
something about like a UFOsighting.
And he would come in and infront of Jan, talk to Marianne
and say something about howthey're coming back for the
gathering of Israel.
That He started to program herthat UFO sightings were
confirmation of the gathering ofIsrael.

(41:30):
So there's all of this religiouscontext that, you know, you hear
she started to believe that shewas half alien.
And you're like, okay, sure,Jan.
But when you know that sheactually believes the church
through and through, and thereare these little nuggets within
Mormonism that she was able tolatch onto to make it so she

(41:51):
fully believed it.
It's not so crazy.
But yeah, so anyway, I've beenable to identify where people
either go radicalized or they goextremist or fundamentalist.
And sometimes it's on the edgeof some of, you know, two of
those or three of those, right?

(42:12):
But they move outside of thenormal mainstream version of
Mormonism without actually...
leaving Mormonism, right?
It's not like they're lookingfor something outside of
Mormonism.
They're looking to historicthings like Brigham Young
talking about how interracialcouples should be killed.

(42:34):
And so then we have a serialkiller like Joseph Paul Franklin
who went and killed 22 peoplewho either supported or were in
interracial relationships.
And so it happens on a scalethat a lot of people I don't
think actually recognize, but welike to avoid talking about

(42:55):
Mormonism's role in a lot ofthese cases, and we just want to
act like they're crazy, eventhough, as far as they're
concerned, they were justfollowing the doctrine.

SPEAKER_01 (43:05):
Well, it's interesting to me when you talk
about, so you're pivoting sortof away from Mormon true crime
into patriarchy.
Yep.
Can you speak to that a littlebit?
I mean, because it's, It soundslike Mormonism isn't sort of
uniquely suited to facilitatethis kind of thinking.

(43:26):
But maybe it's part of a broaderproblem of patriarchy that is
sort of uniquely suited to this.
Would that be an accuratedescription or is it something
else?

SPEAKER_00 (43:37):
Yeah, I would agree that that's an accurate
description.
The vast, vast, vast majority ofthe time when a woman is
murdered, it's by her partner,her male partner.
And so...
We see that on a grander scalein society as well.
And so not to get too politicalor anything, but if we're

(43:58):
thinking about what's happeningwith my personal take, if we
think about what's happeningwith a lot of the laws that are
changing in the United Statesthat are harming marginalized
communities, we are not havingan outright euthanasia of a

(44:19):
population.
We're not having an outrightgenocide.
But what happens when we startto pull all of the services from
disabled people?
We will end up having people whoend up dying because they didn't
have the services or medicalneeds met.
We end up having people who aregoing to take their own lives
because they are in suchdespair.

(44:40):
We're going to have a lot moreaccidents.
So within the of the autisticpopulation that elopes or runs
away from home, 17% of them die.
And over 90% of those die fromdrowning because they're looking

(45:01):
for the sensory of water.
And so we're going, if theselaws are not stopped, we are
going to have a genocide, butit's going to be a bureaucratic
genocide where people are goingto die.
But it's not going to be becausethey were put into clinics like
they did in Nazi Germany.
It's going to be because ofsociety ripping away the things

(45:27):
that make it so that thesepeople are safe.
And so we can see this happeningin a patriarchal society like
the United States.
We can see it happening in othercountries.
But then we also have, just ingeneral, the fact that so many
men believe that The woman thatthey're married to, she is his

(45:48):
right.
And if she's going to leave him,then it is God ordained for him
within whatever his religion isto take her life.
And then we also just have itwithin medical systems where all
of the studies, the vastmajority of studies were done on
men.
And so we're treating women intheir health issues based on

(46:10):
data that is for men.
And so we have women who don'tknow how to recognize that
they're having their own,they're having a heart attack
because all of the symptoms thatare out there are based on men.
And so just within patriarchalsocieties, one thing after
another, after another, afteranother, we have a world where

(46:35):
people are dying and are goingto continue to die because they
are a woman or they are amarginalized person.
And so I want to just be able toTalk on it and tell stories
about that because I think it'sincredibly important based on
the state of the world rightnow.

SPEAKER_01 (46:52):
What is your podcast called?

SPEAKER_00 (46:55):
I just changed it over to Death by Patriarchy.
You can find my original seasonof Mormon True Crime on
podcasting platforms, but onYouTube and TikTok and whatnot,
I've just changed over to Deathby Patriarchy.
My most popular episode onYouTube is the Elizabeth Smart
episode.
And it's really interesting.

(47:16):
If you watch his interrogationright after he was arrested,
somebody says one of thedetectives says to him something
about Mormonism.
And Brian David Mitchell says,oh, the detective says, but this
isn't Mormonism.
And Brian David Mitchell says,if you think that, then you

(47:36):
don't know Mormonism.
And The reality is that will amentally healthy person go to
Mormonism and become a prolificcriminal?
Probably not.
But will a person who isdelusional and looking for
explanations or reasons for whatthey're experiencing in their

(48:00):
head that's different than whateverybody else is experiencing
go to Mormonism and findjustification for horrific
crimes?
They sure can.
They sure can.

SPEAKER_02 (48:10):
They can with all the history and the quotes.
We were saying on the lastpodcast, if you go back in the
history of the church, theprevious leaders were unafraid
to make very bold black andwhite statements.
If you marry someone who'sblack, then you should die on
the spot kind of thing.
It was just one-liners that wereabsolutely this or that.

(48:32):
and just awful, awful thingsthat were written and said by
past church leaders.
I found this is one of the mostinteresting conversations I've
ever had because I'm learning somuch from this.
And as I'm listening, Beth, toyou and to Jim, I am struck with
the notion that my life, Ijoined the church at 16 years
old and led a fairly, what Ithink or thought until this

(48:55):
conversation, actually a fairlyregular life in the church,
nothing too...
You know, nothing too extremelike what you're describing.
But as I look back at my past,there are actually experiences
which are quite extreme in thecontext of this conversation.
Let me give you a quick example,which was extreme then and is

(49:20):
extreme now.
So when I was serving a mission,so Jim and I served our missions
together in Scotland in the 80s.
I probably wasn't worthy enoughto be Jim's companion, but we
served in the same district, inthe same zone in Scotland.
I came out just before Jim, andI served all around Scotland.

(49:41):
One area I served in, over thattwo years, I had several
experiences where I, at thetime, understood that I was
casting out evil spirits.
I had one too.
You had one too.
I had I had a few, not many, buta few.
And there's one in particularthat had a profound impact on

(50:01):
me.
And by the way, when I receivedthe priesthood, you know, when I
was younger, I was bestowed withthe gift of discernment.
It's referenced in mypatriarchal blessing.
And I was bestowed with the giftof healing.
I had these extraordinary powersthat I believed I had because I

(50:23):
was...
Really committed.
Really committed and devoted tothe church.
Not to the extremities that youdescribed earlier, but very
committed.
So I thought I had theseextraordinary gifts.
And also the church says thatwhen you have a spiritual
experience, the spirit leaves agift.
There's a scripture on that, bythe way.
So when you have a spiritualexperience, you bestow the

(50:43):
spiritual gifts.
It's in the Doctrine andCovenants.
But I had these special gifts inGift of Healing.
And so I was with a missionarythat Jim and I know very well,
Ella Jacobs.
And we were serving in Fife inDalgety, Dalgety Bay.
It's a big estate, big housingestate in Scotland.
I'd been out a few months.
Jake has been out longer than Ihad.
We're not in the store.

(51:04):
And this lady, old lady, I'mmiddle-aged.
She was older back then.
She was middle-aged.
I'm middle-aged now.
Oh, you are now.
We're all older.
I'm probably older than what sheis right now.
And so, not to know, she's verypolite, came in.
We started teaching her.
first discussion and abouthalfway through her voice
changed and Ella Jacobs and Ilooked at each other.

(51:27):
I have two pages dedicated in myjournal, which is for somebody
that hated writing the journal,that was pretty huge for me.
And I went into great detail inwriting this in my journal
because it had such a profoundimpact on me at that time.
Anyway, this lady, her voicechanged during the conversation
in the first discussion at thepoint where we were talking

(51:48):
about Joseph Smith and the firstvision.
That's the first discussion,Jim, I think.
And so as she did that, hervoice changed.
And then she said she's notfeeling well.
And then she said there's avoice in her head telling her
that she has an unfamiliarspirit in her body and that
would we bestow a blessing uponher to remove the spirit?

(52:12):
I'd only been out three months.
Jake has been out maybe sixmonths.
And we looked at each other andI'm like, what the heck is going
on?
Anyway, We found ourselves, weresponded, we said yes, and we
got a chair from the kitchen,brought it into the living room.

(52:33):
She sat on the chair in theliving room, and we laid our
hands on her head.
And at this time, also, hervoice, it was like two-tone
voice.
It was scary, actually.
She had two different voices.
And we laid our hands upon herhead.
I think Jacob's was, I wasterrified.
I think Jacob's was themouthpiece.
And we cast out this evil spiritthat was in her.

(52:56):
And what was shocking is that abody started reeling in a
circular motion around thechair.
She was physically moving andher hands were on top of her
head.
And then at one point, halfwaythrough the blessing, one of her
hands came and tried to removemy hands, because Jacob's is

(53:17):
below my hands.
My hands are on top of Jacob's.
She then tried to remove myhands off her head.
That was one of her hands.
And the other hand on the otherside came and pressed it down.
So it was like there was abattle going on inside of her, a
body, a mind, where one part ofher was trying to keep her hands

(53:38):
on her head and continue withthe blessing.
And another side to her with theother hand, right hand, was
trying to physically remove,physically push our hands off
her head.
And all that was happening whileshe was rotating somewhat on the
chair.
It was a frightening experience.
Jacob was terrified.
I certainly was.

(53:59):
He gave this amazing blessingand actually cast out this evil
spirit.
And as soon as she did, sheseemed to...
change and calm down.
She said, we put the chair backin the kitchen.
She sat down, she went back tonormal, you know, like it was,
and I'm like freaking out.
And then, uh, she completelyrandom.

(54:19):
And I'm not making this up.
This is, this is just whathappened.
Um, Jacobs will hear this.
He'll, he'll remember this.
Cause I think he is the podcast,uh, Han went down the side of
the couch, you know, uh,actually outside of the, we call
them the settee, the couch.
And, uh, appeared a knife.
She had a knife in her hand.

(54:40):
And she threw the knife acrossthe floor level of the carpet.
Not at leg height or bodyheight, but skimmed it across
the floor randomly.
Completely unexpected.
The whole thing was the weirdestexperience I've ever had.
The details were in my journal.

(55:01):
I need to go back and read it.
It was, and then she seemed to,at the end, you know, seemed to
not talk about what she did withthe knife, just literally threw
the knife across the floor.
It missed Elder Jacob's leg.
I mean, it would have, it was akitchen knife.
It just missed his leg.
At that point, we're like, weneed to, we need to go.
We need to get out here.
And so that, I had a fewexperiences like that on the

(55:25):
mission, which are very unusual,very extraordinary.
As I listen to you, and I lookback at that now, and thought
that we had cast an evil spiritout.
We were told by the missionperson, you did the right thing,
you cast the evil spirit out,but don't go back.
As I look back at that now, Ibelieve that this lady had

(55:47):
mental health issues.
I don't believe she waspossessed with a spirit.
I don't believe that.
At the time, I felt my power, myamazing patriarchal power and
the gift of healing hadhopefully healed this lady, and
I I don't believe that now.
I think this lady had mentalhealth issues.
I think she needed to go to aprofessional doctor, do some

(56:08):
blood work.
This was 30 years ago.
Who knows what she was goingthrough physically, mentally?
We know so much more now than wedid back then.
We knew very little back then, Ithink.
And so I look back at that now,and this conversation has really
given me a differentperspective.
Not that I didn't think it wasmental health before, but

(56:29):
certainly put it intoperspective.
Would you say...
I'm right then now to think thatthat experience, as extreme as
it was for me, certainly, andfrightening, does that sound
like a mental health-relatedissue to you?

SPEAKER_00 (56:45):
Yeah, yeah.
So when my child will havepsychosis, 100% is behavior that
I would think was demonic if Iwas facing it and I believed
that.
But yeah, that's 100% the kindof behavior that I've
experienced.

SPEAKER_02 (57:06):
That's extraordinary.
And so there are treatments.
You're saying there aretreatments for that.
And the treatment is not in thechurch necessarily.
You said the church is not, youknow, provides the complete
solution.
It doesn't.
I accept that.
I think you're 100% right.
I think Jim would agree.

(57:27):
agree with that as well he canspeak for himself that the
church doesn't have all theanswers um and so the advice is
even if it means that theindependent professional
counseling is maybe even to givethe church a break let's say the
counselor is from the from thenon-mormon counselor hopefully
to say look just take a breakfrom the mormon church all this

(57:49):
intensity is making the problemworse take a break the church
doesn't want to hear thatclearly But the right thing to
do is to take a break from thechurch, have a breather, go get
some counseling, go get sometherapy.
Just don't focus on that.
Focus on your mental health.
And that may or may not meanthem coming back to the church

(58:10):
if the church doesn't want.
But you're right.
I agree.
I think the church is absolutelynot in that space and not ready
to acknowledge its role inmental health and even given
enough sufficient advice fromthe pulpit to say, look, go get
some professional help.
Go use independent sources fortheir advice.

(58:33):
And even if it means taking abreak from us, it's like at
work, a professional companywill say, look, if you're
struggling with mental health orphysical health, don't come to
work.
Go get the treatment.
That's what a professionalcompany would do.
Go get the treatment.
Go take the break.
Your job's still here when youget back.

(58:54):
We'll support you.
We'll support you.
Family, we'll support you.
Go do what you need to do.
We're here.
Go take the space.
Jim, I can't see the church everdoing that.

SPEAKER_01 (59:05):
I think that would be difficult.
And as I listen to you tell thisstory, Ian, I'm reminded of my
story, which isn't nearly asdramatic.
But when I cast out a devil,which was somebody who
essentially had had a headinjury, a traumatic brain
injury, As I look back on it, Ifelt like a big deal.

(59:27):
I think that's part of theproblem is that, I mean, Ian,
you tell that story and you werefrightened, but it's also, I
mean, missions are just so muchrejection and an awful lot of
boredom.
And if you can break that upwith a good demonic possession,
that kind of makes your day.
That's kind of exciting.

(59:47):
I mean, yes, it's terrifying,but it's, oh, look, I was
snatched from the jaws of evilby the power of my priesthood.
I mean, there are, I think,perverse incentives to sort of
seek out those kinds of momentsand relish them rather than come
to the relatively boringconclusion of, hey, you need

(01:00:11):
some medical help.
You don't need the mighty ElderBennett or the mighty Elder
Wilkes to summon the powers ofheaven.
You need to go to the doctor andget some blood work and get some
medication, get some counseling.
And I think there's kind of,would you agree, Beth, that

(01:00:34):
there's kind of a perverseincentive to perpetuate kind of
the false narratives within thechurch about their ability to
solve mental health issues?

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:44):
Absolutely.
So one of the things that Ithink of is Tony Robbins talks
about like the six human needs.
And one of those needs is theneed for significance.
And so if I'm having mentalhealth issues and it's just
mental health issues, there isno need being fulfilled.
There is something wrong withme.
But If I'm having a mentalhealth issue and I am actually

(01:01:07):
being possessed by a demonbecause I am such a good,
righteous, holy person thatSatan himself is coming to
attack me, my need forsignificance is fulfilled,
right?
And if a missionary is able tocome and cast that demon out and
make it so that I...
you know, no longer have thisdemon possessing me, that

(01:01:29):
missionary has their need forsignificance fulfilled, right?
And so this narrative that it'ssomething spiritual because
we're all so sacred and holy andspecial fulfills something in
us, but it's not actually thesolution or reality that we
need.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:49):
Beth, this is one of the most extraordinary
conversations I've ever had.
I mean that.
It's been...
more than I expected.
I'm so sorry for all the painand hurt that you've gone
through yourself.
I'm pleased to hear that you'vereceived the treatment and
support that you needed, youknow, physically, you know,

(01:02:09):
mentally, which is great.
I'm sorry about the, you know,the hurt and pain that your
children are going through and Ihope that there is support for
them and that they will recoverfully.
You're a wonderful person and Icould talk for hours with
someone like you and I think, Iknow for a fact that When people
listen to this, they will learnso much from this.
I certainly have.

(01:02:30):
I think you're a wonderfulperson.
I would love to have you back ifyou're ever interested in coming
back.
I'm sure Jenny feels the sameway.
There's so much more behind.
We've kind of skimmed it, Ithink.
There's been points we'vediscussed where we've just kind
of touched upon these points.
There's so much more value ineven exploring those topics.
But I want to take thisopportunity to sincerely thank

(01:02:50):
you.
for coming onto our podcast andsharing your insights.
Beth, do you have any otherthoughts or comments that you'd
like to share?
And then following that, Jim, doyou have any of your final
thoughts and comments that youwant to share before we close
out?

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:06):
Well, I'll let Beth have the final word.
And just quickly, thank you,Beth, for everything you brought
here.
I have learned an awful lot.
I think a lot of peoplelistening to this will learn an
awful lot.
And I think you may have savedsome lives today.
I mean, I think that there issuch a huge need for this kind
of information.

(01:03:26):
And I am so grateful to you fordoing everything you can in your
power to fulfill that need andto fill that gap between
ignorance and the kind ofknowledge that is necessary to
save lives.
So I so appreciate thisconversation and thank you very
much and want to hear yoursummation and your last word

(01:03:47):
here.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:48):
Thank you guys for having me.
It's been a lot of fun.
So one of the things that I justwant people to walk away from
this with, a lot of times peoplehear me talk about Mormon crime
or Mormon true crime andimmediately your defenses go up.
My agenda is not to makeMormonism go away.

(01:04:09):
It's not even to make Mormonismlook bad.
It is to make it so that peopleare aware and paying attention
to the types of things that areresulting in people losing their
lives.
And so that you guys within yourown community can go advocate
for changes in policies, changesin culture and attitudes within
Mormonism that cause thesecrimes.

(01:04:31):
And that begins with admittingthat, yes, somebody can have
mental illness, but it doesn'tmean that Mormonism did not prop
them up in moving forward acrime because they felt
validated by Mormonism in theirmental illness.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:52):
Beth, thank you for those final words.
Again, thank you for taking timeto come on the podcast.
We appreciate you so much.
Jim, thank you for yourvaluable, equal value
contributions as well.
To you, to Beth and Jim, thankyou again.
And to all the listeners, thankyou for joining us on this
week's podcast.
It's an extraordinaryconversation and I'm confident

(01:05:13):
that we will get a great dealfrom this.
So on behalf of Jim and I, wethank you and we're signing out
and we'll look forward tomeeting with you next week.
Thank you, Beth.
Thank you, Jim.
Thank you, Beth.
Thank you,

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:31):
Liam.

UNKNOWN (01:05:32):
Bye.