A Force for Good

Ian and Jim swap stories about how the Church has been a profound blessing in their lives. 

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside

(00:18):
Out.
My name is Ian Wilkes and I'mhere with the most delightful,
stupendous and handsome Mr.
Bennett.

SPEAKER_01 (00:28):
We're lucky this is an audio podcast, so they don't
know how much you're lying onthe handsome part.

SPEAKER_00 (00:34):
Well, I put my piece into AI, and honestly, it
struggled a bit, but it came upwith a limit to technology,
right, of what AI can do withpeople's handsome looks.
But it came back and said, wecan't improve upon this handsome
fella.
So I think we've reached thelimit of AI.

(00:54):
You're that handsome.

SPEAKER_01 (00:56):
I certainly am capable of breaking AI.
I'm happy to admit that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01):
Anyway, it's wonderful to be with you and
excited to have thisconversation.
I've just been away in Mexico.
I went also to another city inCalgary, so we're a little bit
late this week on the podcast.
We want to thank our listenersfor being incredibly patient.
We do our best to organize andstructure our podcasts.

(01:21):
There's a preparation involved.
And so we thank you for yourpatience in terms of getting the
next podcast, this podcast thatwe're about to do, getting this
one out.
Very excited about this podcastbecause as I was flying up from
Mexico, I was thinking aboutwhat some of the topics we could
be discussing.
And the one thing that keptcoming back to me quite

(01:43):
frequently, and it's probablybecause I was away and relaxed
with my family and feeling allkind of, you know, always
stress-free and quite positive.
I was thinking and reflectingupon, and actually I had
conversations with my family onthis, thinking and reflecting
upon all of the blessings thatthe church had brought into my

(02:04):
life.
From the time that I wasinvestigating the church, the
teaching, learning experiencesas I was investigating the
church, joining the church waschallenging.
But going forward, after thefirst few weeks and months of
joining the church, my lifetransformed, improved.
I met new friends.

(02:24):
My life had a sense of purposeand meaning which I didn't have
before.
And I would say for the mostpart, almost the entire
experience or most of theexperience in the church was
extremely positive to me.
And I was thinking about wecould do a conversation on the
many, many qualities andattributes of the church.

(02:47):
And by way of context, which andcontext is very, very important.
The church, as you know, Jim, isfacing many challenges,
continues to face manychallenges, has faced many
challenges around policy,doctrine, history, leadership,

(03:08):
women in the church, LGBTQ, tax,finance, tithing.
There seems to be an endlesslist of issues and problems and
challenges with the church.
And we've covered some of thosetopics over the last couple of
years or so.
Notwithstanding, there are many,many qualities that the church

(03:32):
brings to the world and to themembers.
And I've made just a bit of alist here, and I've made my own
list.
But what I thought we'd do,instead of me kind of reeling
them off all the qualities.
I thought you and I could goback and forward and just kind
of highlight some of thequalities, attributes, and the

(03:54):
blessings that the church hasactually brought into your life
and into my life.
And I want to start off bysaying that for me, being a
convert to the church and goingfrom an experience of feeling at
that time as a young boy, 16year old, and before that, My

(04:15):
experience was a feeling ofbeing alone, lost, little or no
purpose, little or no meaning tomy life, no direction, very few
positive role models in my life,and low self-esteem, virtually
no confidence.
And I think about the blessingsfrom the church and how the

(04:40):
church teachings and the cultureof the church, the positive
teachings, elements of thechurch actually changed all of
those things that I've justmentioned.
And I think the first thing Icould highlight with the church
that I felt from the very firsttime I met the Mormon
missionaries and started gettingto know some of the members was
a sense of friendship.

(05:04):
And so my friends, I had somegood friends growing up, just a
few good friends, and I definedfriendship as differently now i
think from growing up when i wasa young boy in yorkshire in that
coal mining community inyorkshire friendship then was
you know hanging out with yourmates and doing fun things after
school and um playing soccer orrugby or etc and they were fun

(05:28):
times for sure but no realconversations that i had back
then you know real close um uhfriendships that were talking
about other things other thansports and other you know
physical activities there was noum emotional or um sharing one's

(05:49):
thoughts and feelings aboutcertain things and i certainly
had those as a young man and sowhen i joined the church i felt
that that part of me thatemotional part of me and the
intellectual part of me and myhopes and aspirations for my
life i felt that i'd connectedwith a group of people that was
interested in me and cared aboutme and wanted to be a genuine

(06:15):
friend to me.
And I really felt that almostfrom day one.
And so when I went to church andI went into the youth program,
and the youth leaders wereextraordinary, they were
interested in me.
And I remember sitting down withthe, they called it MIA back
then.
MIA member, right?

(06:36):
And so you had these, you know,I got baptized.
I had these interview with the,with the branch president at the
time.
It was really interested in me.
And I was amazed that they wereinterested in me and my life.
And I sat down with one of theyouth leaders and they asked me
about what I want to do with therest of my life and where do I
want to go?
And it was my work or, you know,I want to go to college.

(06:58):
And, and so these are questionsthat I'd never, never, no one
had ever asked me before.

UNKNOWN (07:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (07:03):
And so it was a completely different experience.
And the person that was with me,the youth leader was with me,
was just very genuine.
There's a wonderful spirit.
And I felt I'd come home and Ifelt I'd made these new friends
and that actually in many wayssaved me.

(07:25):
And I will be forever gratefulabout these new friends that
accepted me for who I was, wasinterested in me.
And especially at a time where Ineeded that.
And I've never forgotten that.
And so I think about thisactually often.
I miss many of my friends in thechurch who have, I think, maybe

(07:46):
decided that because I'm notactive in the church, that the
friendship is probablycompromised, which kind of sad
breaks my heart in a way.
But I still retain, you know,obviously quite a few friends,
you know, in the church, some atleast.
But that was the...
One of the first amazingblessings and experiences in my

(08:06):
life, and I am grateful to thechurch for that.
I can think of many, many otherqualities and attributes of the
church, but I also want to passthis over to you and ask you...
How has the church blessed yourlife over the years?
You've been in the church yourentire life.
You've had extraordinary parentswho've done a wonderful job

(08:28):
raising all of you as familymembers.
In contrast to mynon-functioning family, frankly,
very non-functioning, and I'dsay dysfunctional family, you
had a high-functioning family,wonderful relationships, and a
very different youth andexperience growing up in the

(08:51):
church and a differentexperience to mine.
Could you share with me one ofyour earliest thoughts where you
connected the church'steachings, the experience in the
church, et cetera, to a veryimportant blessing that came
into your life at the earlystage of your life?
And you thought, my goodness,how grateful that you are to be

(09:13):
in the church because of thisparticular blessing.
Could you think of one?

SPEAKER_01 (09:18):
My goodness, I had not thought to go there.
And now, as you say that,something just leaps to mind.
So I grew up in SouthernCalifornia, and back in the day,
they used to do big, hugepageants in the church.

(09:38):
We've sort of discontinued someof that, and that makes me sad.
I think we've discontinuedpretty much all of them.
You know, they had the HillCumorah pageant in New York.
They had some pageant, whichI've never seen, but it was down
by the Manti Temple.
And at one point they did apageant called Third Nephi.

(10:03):
It was a musical and it wasessentially a dramatization of
the story of Third Nephi.
And on this occasion, I was 11years old.
And my aunt lived in Westwood,California, and she was assigned
to gather children who wouldplay the Nephite children

(10:25):
waiting for Christ to come.
And we were in Los Angeles, andI was already sort of a budding
thespian.
And she says, and you'll getpaid.
It's a paid position.
I got paid for the entire run ofthe show.

(10:48):
I got paid a whopping$5.
And that just meant the world tome.
I was like, aha, I'm a paidactor now.
I've made it.
I've arrived.
Anyway, we did this show.
And I don't even think I saw itbecause I was backstage.

(11:13):
for most of it, so I don't evenknow the bulk of it, but we were
taught two songs to sing in theshow.
One of them is a song that hassince been included in the
children's hymn book.
It's called I Feel My Savior'sLove.
Are you familiar with I Feel MySavior's Love?
And this came from this pageant.

(11:37):
It was written for this pageant.
And There was another songcalled The Love of God, which
I'm foreshadowing the end of thestory.
But for a very long time, I hadnot heard since the time that I
did the show.
And it goes something like, Thelove of God leads me on.

(11:58):
His precious love fills my song.
His love is pure.
How freely it comes that we mayall be one.
I just remember snippets of it.
I don't remember the wholething.
Anyway.
We were doing this and I havealways sort of felt connections
to the divine through music.

(12:19):
And it's one of the reasons whythe Tabernacle Choir is so
special to me is because I feelthat connection every time I go
to a Tabernacle Choir rehearsal.
Every time I have an opportunityto sing just beautiful music
with talented spiritual people.
And it's It's how I connect, andit sort of is rooted in this

(12:41):
experience.
So I remember just the firsttime the show was put on in the
Shrine Auditorium.
The Academy Awards had been heldin the Shrine Auditorium.
It's just this big, massivespace.
What's very funny is it's rightnext to the University of

(13:01):
Southern California.
When I was 11 years old, mymother said, would you go to the
Shrine Auditorium?
Whatever you do, do not gooutside.
This is the roughest area in thewhole world.
There are gangs.
You're going to be killed if youwalk outside.
And so I was terrified of goingoutside.

(13:22):
And then years later, I lived oncampus at the University of
Southern California in myfreshman dorm.
And my first class was at thePerforming Arts Annex.
And I had to walk past theShrine Auditorium to get to it.
I thought, I'm now living in themost dangerous place in the

(13:42):
world.
Which it really kind of was.
I mean, I lived in Los Angelesduring the 1992 Rodney King
riots.
That's a whole other story.
So here I am playing one of theNephite children.
The actor who played Jesuswas...
I projected everything I thoughtor believed about Jesus onto

(14:05):
him.
That when he appeared to theNephites and we burst into song,
I felt this sort of overwhelmingconnection to the divine and
this overwhelming realizationthat Jesus was real.
This actor wasn't really Jesus,but there really was a Jesus.

(14:29):
And Jesus knew me and caredabout me.
And at one point, there was atestimony meeting for the entire
cast.
And we were seated in the ShrineAuditorium with its, I don't
know, 3,000, 10,000 seats?
I don't know.

(14:50):
It's just this huge space.
And we were sort of huddled upnext to the stage.
And...
as we were singing it, or I'msorry, as at the testimony
meeting, uh, the guy who'dwritten the music was talking
and he said, I want you toremember every time you sing the

(15:13):
love of God, because you feelsomething every time you sing
that.
I mean, he just said that to allof us, but it felt like he was
boring right into my soul, uh,And I thought, yeah, I do feel
something every time I singthat.
And he said, that which you feelis the love of God.

(15:36):
And that just sort of kind ofexploded into me.
I mean, I think of the JosephSmith saying, never did any
passage of scripture come withmore power to the heart of man
than this did at this time tomine.
That's sort of how I felt.
And it was...
the one time I can sort ofpinpoint in my youth, in my

(15:59):
childhood, where I knew Godloved me, I knew God cared about
me, and I knew God knew me byname, that I was important to
God, me individually, littleJimmy Bennett.
And it was decades later,probably about 10 years ago,
when I went to a stateconference, and I don't know

(16:21):
where they dug it up, But thestate choir had found an
arrangement of the song, TheLove of God.
And they started to sing it.
And instantly, that came back tome.
Instantly, in that moment, Ifelt the love of God.
I knew God loved me.
I knew God knew me and knew meby name.

(16:45):
And it was as if no time hadpassed whatsoever.
And those kinds of moments...
Those kinds of connections arethings that the church actively
facilitates.
When we talk about the church,and even if we're critical of
the church, there is no denying,at least in my life, that the

(17:08):
church has facilitated aconnection to deity.
That through the church, throughactivity in the church, through
service in the church, I havebeen able to essentially be
introduced to God and make thatconnection with God.

(17:28):
And so that's one of the reasonsI think why so many people, even
the people who are critical ofthe church or even if they're
excommunicated from the church,the cliche is you leave the
church and you can't leave italone.
But to some degree, you leavethe church, and the church can't
leave you alone in a good way,in that all of the goodness, all

(17:53):
of the teachings, thatfacilitation of the relationship
with the divine, that doesn'tjust banish when you walk out
the door.
That's still with you.
So that's my long, lengthyanswer to your question.
But before I throw it back toyou, Would you indulge me in
telling a more modern story thatI think goes along with this?

SPEAKER_00 (18:19):
Please do.

SPEAKER_01 (18:21):
Well, and I'm a little, I'm hoping that this
podcast comes out after theother person in the story
releases their video where theytell this story.
I think many of our listenerswould be acquainted with our
friend Nemo the Mormon.

(18:41):
who we've interviewed on thispodcast.
And when we interviewed him onthis podcast, he started talking
about his love for music, hisconnection to the divine that he
feels through choral music.
And I think I even said on thepodcast, it may have been
afterwards when we were talking,but I think it may even be on
the podcast, I said, look, theTabernacle Choir has what they

(19:02):
call musical guests.
I am allowed to invite people tocome to a Tabernacle Choir
rehearsal and actually sing withthe choir.
You won't be singing in aperformance, but you'll be
singing in a rehearsal.
We'll give you the music andyou'll sing along as if you were
a member of the choir.
And near the end of therehearsal, Mac Wilberg will ask

(19:24):
you to stand up and he'll readyour bio and everybody will
applaud and be glad that you'rethere.
And he said, boy, that would bea lot of fun.
And I said, well, let me knowwell in advance because it takes
forever.
I booked...
these guests sometime in thesummer of last year, like June,

(19:46):
July, or it was probably rightafter I had talked to Nemo.
We had talked to Nemo on ourpodcast.
And this didn't happen untiljust a couple of weeks ago.
March 6th was the day that hehad been booked.
Because he said, yeah, I'd loveto do that, and I'm going to be
in Utah in March, and I wouldlove nothing more than to sing

(20:07):
with the Tab Choir.
So, I booked this.
I went through all of thechannels to make it happen.
And then in September, Nemo wasexcommunicated.
And he sent me a message andsaid, is that going to affect
anything?
Well, the first thing he saidwas, he actually sent me the
message before he wasexcommunicated because he says,

(20:29):
do you have to be a member ofthe church to sing with the
choir?
And I said, no, which isabsolutely true.
In fact...
They encourage you to invitenon-members to sing with the
choir.
I think there's no rule as tothe status of the people you
invite to sing.
And if they're non-members,there are none of the conditions

(20:52):
that apply to the members.
If you're a member, you have tobe either over 80 years old or
live more than 500 miles awayfrom the tabernacle.
So they don't want people tojust invite their...
friends who live next door tothem who are in the church, but
they see it as a missionaryopportunity, and so they want

(21:12):
you to invite non-members.
Now, excommunicated members,that's a little bit, I would
think, a little bit of a grayarea.
I had never asked.
I hadn't thought about it.
And he said, it's looking likeI'm going to be excommunicated,
and I would still love to dothis.
And I said, okay, then tell youwhat.

(21:33):
I don't see a problem as long aswe don't use this occasion to
embarrass the church.
I think in your bio, we don'ttalk about your podcast.
We just talk about your choralexperience.
And I would very much appreciateit if you just didn't let
anybody know you were doingthis, that you don't go on your
podcast and advertise this, thatyou're not trying to pull a fast

(21:57):
one on the church, that you'renot trying to embarrass the
church.
And you know, could not havebeen more gracious, could not
have been more understanding.
No, I understand that.
That's entirely appropriate.
I very much want to do this.
So time goes on and he shows upin Utah.
I took him out to dinner andthen we went to the tabernacle.

(22:17):
And it's really, really fun tosee the choir through somebody
else's eyes because you sort ofstart to take it for granted a
little bit.
You know, you go up and you sitin the choir loft and you really
don't get a sense of what thechoir sounds like as a full
thing because you're in your ownlittle corner of the world and
you're listening to the peoplearound you and you just get kind

(22:40):
of a warped sense of what thetotal of it is.
But when Nemo came, I sat withhim out in the choir audience
and he was not invited to comeand sing in the loft until after
sort of the opening There was alittle bit of an opening
rehearsal.
Then there was a...
We always have this sort ofshort devotional where a member

(23:03):
of the choir presidency justshares a spiritual thought.
And then the rehearsal begins inearnest.
And that's when he was taken upto sing.
But as we walked in and as I satout there and the choir was
singing and you could get thefull impact and feel it and you
could see the look on Nemo'sface.
I mean, he just...

(23:24):
He was in heaven.
He was just...
wow, this is amazing.
And I just thought, yeah, itreally is, isn't it?
So he ended up getting taken upinto the loft.
And I actually didn't sing inthe loft that rehearsal because
I was going to be gone onSunday.
So for attendance purposes, ifyou're going to be gone on

(23:47):
Sunday, you still come to therehearsal, but they ask you to
sort of sit on the side so thatthey can get a sense of who's
going to be there on Sunday sothey know what the choir numbers
are going to look like.
And so I was sitting on the sideand one of the guys who he's,
he's, I'm not sure what hisofficial title is, but they're

(24:08):
most of the people who arevolunteers for the choir are
former members of the choir.
You have to end your service ofthe choir when you reach 60
years old.
And many of these people are.
say, oof, I want to do whateverI can to sort of stay involved.
And so they volunteer, and someof them volunteer in the
wardrobe department, and theydeal with your suits and women's

(24:29):
dresses.
And other people, this guy isone of the volunteers who
essentially arranges choirseating.
Every Sunday, there aredifferent people who aren't
there, and we get put intodifferent chairs to make sure we
look good and that there aren'tany holes in the presentation.
And And so this guy is the guywho actually took Nemo and found

(24:53):
him a seat.
And he came to me and he says,your friend looks like he's
having a blast.
And I said, yeah, he does,doesn't he?
And he did.
Everybody around him was sort ofchatting with him.
He just seemed to be having agreat time.
And then we were talking and hesays, now, is he a member of the
church?
And I got a little nervous and Isaid, well, let's see.

(25:15):
How do I finesse this?
And I decided, you know what?
What I'm going to do is justtell the truth.
And I said, he used to be.
And I said, he was when I bookedthis.
And we talked a little.
And I said, he's since beenexcommunicated.
He's a podcaster.
And he said some things thatwere controversial.
And he's since beenexcommunicated.

(25:36):
But he still wanted to do this.
Is that going to be a problem?
And instantly...
This guy said, oh, no, no, no,of course not.
I hope he has a lovely time.
I mean, there was absolutely nojudgment.
There was absolutely nocondemnation.
When we got in there, I got atext message.
And it was from a number Ididn't recognize.

(25:57):
And it said, now, is Nemositting next to you?
I went, oh, crud.
Who's this?
Am I in trouble?
And I Googled the number andfound out it was a choir member
who was cool.
And I texted back, yes, it'sNemo.
Please don't get me intotrouble.
And he says, oh, no, no, I wantto meet him.
And so usually after they'reintroduced, they take them out

(26:21):
and take some more pictures withthem and they finish the
rehearsal doing more music.
But the guy I was sitting withwho does the seating said, your
friend looks like he's havingway too much fun.
Can we just leave him until theend of the rehearsal?
I'm like, yeah, yeah, please do.
And.
And so we get to the end of therehearsal and he comes down and

(26:41):
the friend who texted me comesto meet him.
And a few other peoplerecognized him and it was all
positive.
And they're like, Nemo, hey,it's so fun to see you.
So it was just the perfectevening until the very end.
We get to the very end and we'reliterally walking out the door.

(27:02):
And this woman who...
I'm not going to name names.
I don't want to give anythingthat might identify her.
I said, she's a woman.
So you can try to figure it outfrom, it wasn't one of the men,
but it was a woman who walks upto him and she said something
like, um, Nemo in his recordingof it says, he said, I

(27:25):
recognized you.
I remember her saying, I knowwho you are.
Either way, I'm not sure whichone of us is right, but either
way, it was very clearly asarcastic attack or like, aha,
I've caught you kind of thing.
I know who you are.
And Nemo just tried to play itoff and just went, shh, don't

(27:49):
tell anyone.
You know, just like, ha, ha, ha.
He didn't, I don't think herecognized just how hostile she
was being.
And then she looks at me and shesays, and I told Grant.
Now, Grant is a former member ofthe choir.
He actually sang in the choirwith me while I'd been here.
But then he was sort of promotedto become the manager of the

(28:14):
men's section.
There's one man who manages themen's section and one woman who
manages the women's section.
And Grant is sort of the headguy for all of the men in the
choir.
And she says, and I told Grant.
And then she looked at Nemo andsays, well, I hope you had a
good time.
Just like that.

(28:35):
You know, it's just, it's like,oh, come on, come on.
Why do you have to be rude?
Why do you have to be unkind?
This was such a lovely eveningand he didn't hurt anybody.
He had a great time and And sowe walked back to the car, and I
just felt terrible.

(28:56):
And I was apologizing up, down,and sideways.
It was made a little bit betterby another guy who walked up to
him, recognized him, and said,hey, Nemo.
Hey, it's so nice to see you.
But just this one person hadjust cast a pall over the entire
evening, which was such a lovelyevening.

(29:16):
And so Nemo drives off in hiscar.
I drive off in mine.
And I went, I want to get out infront of this.
I don't want to just have thispercolating out there.
If I'm in trouble for havinginvited someone who's been
excommunicated to sing with thechoir, I want to know now.
So I found Grant's phone number,and I gave him a call.
And Grant was very pleasant.

(29:37):
Hi, Jim.
How are you?
Hi, Grant.
I'm doing well.
And he just was like, oh, youknow, how was your friend?
Your friend seemed to enjoy it.
I had also invited anotherwoman.
It was completelynon-controversial.
I'll tell that story veryquickly.
I didn't know this woman.
This was somebody I'd met onTwitter who said, my grandmother
is dying and her final wish isto sing in the choir.

(30:00):
And I went, oh, well, I canarrange that.
You know, I'm a big shot.
So these are the only musicalguests I've ever had were Nemo
and this woman.
She was 85 years old and she hadthroat cancer and her vocal
cords were paralyzed.
And she just wanted to sit inthe choir loft and sing.
And Mac Wilberg, the choirdirector, was visibly moved when

(30:26):
he read her bio.
He just told the story of howshe'd always wanted to sing with
the choir, but she'd neverreally got the opportunity.
And now, at the age of 85, withher vocal cords paralyzed, she
just wants to sit in the loftand feel the testimonies of all
the people around her.
And at the end of it, she cameaway and she said, it was a

(30:49):
miracle.
I was able to sing.
And for one night, she was ableto sing.
And it was just such a lovelyexperience, absolutely
uplifting.
And she's still very much anactive member of the church, so
nobody was going to give her ahard time for that.
But it was Nemo that wasattracting all the attention.

(31:09):
And when I called Grant, I said,I understand this woman has
talked to you.
And I just wanted to, and hesaid, oh, did she do that?
She wasn't supposed to do that.
Oh, I hope she wasn't rude.
And I'm like, oh, she absolutelywas rude.
Oh, no, we'll talk to her.
We'll make sure, we'll smooththat over.

(31:29):
I'm so sorry.
He says, Jim, you did absolutelynothing wrong.
We were very grateful to havehim here.
Please let him know that.
Please let him know how much weappreciated his enthusiasm.
I mean, they just could not havebeen more gracious.
Well, this thing escalatedbecause I was out of town that
weekend and I'd gone down toSouthern California with my

(31:53):
family.
We went and watched a tennistournament in Indian Wells,
which is right by Palm Springs.
And I saw on my phone, onTwitter, there's an account that
attacks me.
He's been attacking me for aboutfour years.
And they had a picture of Nemosinging in the choir.

(32:14):
And it was so obvious that thewoman who had come and insulted
him and been rude to him was thewoman who had taken the picture.
You can see from the cameraangle.
You can just look.
The person taking the picturehad to be sitting where this
person sits in the choir loft.

(32:35):
And it was just, this is JimBennett.
He brings apostates to...
to sing with the choir.
Jim, stop bringing apostates tosing with the choir.
How dare you?
Blah, blah, blah.
And I went, oh my goodness.
And it was at least kind of arelief to know that this woman,
I assume this woman ran thisaccount.
She has since denied it, thatshe doesn't run it, but she had

(32:58):
posted this picture in someprivate Facebook group.
Anyway, so then I thought, okay,this is escalating out of
control.
This is just terrible.
This is embarrassing.
And so I texted Grant.
I said, Grant, I just hope tolet this die.
But this post has appeared onTwitter from an account that's

(33:19):
been harassing me for fouryears.
And now I know that this womanis behind this account.
And I just, I don't know what todo.
I really think this is aproblem.
And he says, oh, it absolutelyis a problem.
We will take care of it onSunday.
And so after the broadcast onSunday, I got a call from Grant.
And he talked to him.

(33:39):
He says, yes, we sort of readher the riot act.
If she does steps out of lineagain and does this again, she's
on a short leash.
She's in big trouble.
And she said, I just don't thinkyou understand just all the
terrible things that Nemo hassaid about the church.
And Grant said, really?

(33:59):
So did Alma the Younger.
So did Paul.
He was attacking the earlyChristians.
I mean...
The whole experience was just soencouraging to me because choir
leadership, every step of theway, was going out of their way

(34:20):
to be inclusive, to be kind, tobe welcoming.
And the thing that kept comingup over and over and over again
is, I really hope he had a greatexperience.
I really hope that he felt thespirit.
And good for you, Jim, forgiving this guy an opportunity
to engage with the church in apositive way.

(34:44):
And Nemo has since recorded hisexperience.
Because the other thing I saidto Grant was, I had talked to
Nemo about this and told him,hey, don't, can we just not talk
about this?
Can you just not call attentionto this?
And Grant said, tell him to talkabout it all he wants.
Tell him to call as muchattention to it as he wants.

(35:07):
We were grateful to have himhere.
We hope he had a great time.
So the moral of the story, atleast in the context of the
discussion we're having here onthis episode, is that it is so
easy to look at the scandal ofthe moment.
We look at all of the thingsthat are happening today in our

(35:32):
small, and I think it's arelatively small corner of the
online world where we see peoplewho are in trouble with the
church or even excommunicatedfrom the church.
And I think they have sort of alarger outsized, those moments
have a larger outsized presencein at least my mind than they do

(35:54):
in the world at large.
I think for the most part, mostmembers of the church go about
their business and go abouttheir worship without being
troubled by any of this.
And I often think, okay, well,all the terrible people who are
online, the people who attack merelentlessly, the Desnets and
those sorts of folks, they havean outsized influence on my

(36:16):
perception of the church.
The reality is I think the vastmajority of the members of the
church and of the leaders of thechurch are good, wonderful,
decent people who would doanything to help you and do
anything to lift you up.

(36:37):
And so on the whole, you know,when we talk about, we say
things that are critical of thechurch or we point out something
that's happening that we're nothappy with, I just think it's
essential to remember that atits core and the overwhelming
majority of the people In thischurch, this is a force for

(37:03):
good.
These are good people.
This church does good and evengreat things and blesses lives
and lifts people up.
And yes, it's not perfect.
Yes, it falls down on occasion.
So do I.
As an individual, all of us do.
And I think we need to give asmuch grace to the church as a

(37:26):
whole That we give individualswho struggle and fall down and
then get back up and try to dogood things.
But I just, throughout my life,in summation here, and then I
will shut up.
I've said enough for twoepisodes here probably.
But in summation, the church hasblessed my life in immeasurable

(37:50):
ways.
From the time I was born all theway till now.
And it continues to bless mylife.
And so if there is any doubtabout that, if there's anybody
listening to this podcast whothinks that Jim Bennett and Ian
Wilkes, even though Ian Wilkesis no longer a member of the
church, that thinks that we aresomehow in any way opposed to

(38:17):
the church or don't want thechurch to flourish and thrive,
you're absolutely wrong.
The reason we're doing this, thereason we engage with this is
because we love this church.
This church has blessed both ofour lives, continues to bless
our lives.
And we want to make sure that itcontinues to do so long after

(38:43):
we're gone.
Continues to do so for ourchildren and grandchildren and
for the whole world.
So there you go.
I told you big, long stories.
I answered your question.
I hijacked it and told the Nemostory, but I just want that out
there.
I want my side of that story outthere because I think it makes
the church look great.

(39:04):
I think the church did a greatthing here.

SPEAKER_00 (39:07):
Yeah.
I want to thank you for sharingthat story there with Nemo.
And as I listened to, I thinkthis is extraordinary
conversation and very timelybecause, you know, we're talking
about the blessings that thechurch brings into our lives.
And there are many.
And you shared earlier yourconnection to deity, to God, to

(39:30):
Jesus Christ, and your sense ofspirituality through music.
Very, very important to you.
It's who you are.
It's the very core of who youare.
And Nemo, of course, had clearlya very positive, constructive
experience.
He also connects to his ownspirituality through music.
And so it's a wonderfulconnection.

(39:51):
blessing to him and to you to beable to go to the choir and to
participate, to listen, and toexperience that level of
spirituality through music.
That is a really important areaof your life where your life and
your family is enrichedspiritually through music.

(40:12):
And the church is phenomenal.
I mean, You know, the hymns, thechoir, you know, the connection
with God and the connection withcommunity, the connection with
each other.
Music connects us.
The words, the lyrics, thesounds, the melodies, the
spirituality behind them.
And it's very, very important toyou and to many others for
sharing that.

(40:32):
I think what's extraordinaryabout this conversation is that
as we, our listeners may notknow this, but we, our...
type and level of preparationfor these podcasts varies often
we have a topic we think aboutit you do your research i do my
research we come to the podcastum usually uh prepared sometimes
it's um you know prepared withnotes of course other times uh

(40:56):
for whatever reason theconversation goes off in a
different direction and on ofteni think at least in a very
wonderful direction and i thinkthis podcast is no uh this
conversation no exception as iwas listening to you and And
again, grateful for you sharingyour insights and your stories
there.
You touched upon another area, anote that I made in preparation

(41:19):
for this conversation, which isperhaps the church's greatest
attribute, arguably, themembers.
And I've got that here in mynotes here.
And I want to just kind of addto what you've said, because my
life has been incrediblydifficult.
blessed and enriched through themembers of the church.

(41:43):
I could say after 35 years ofserving in the church, different
callings, different levels,following, leading, serving a
mission, being a bishop, servingin the state presidency, working
in the auxiliaries, working insome volunteer capacity, like
helping hands in Edinburghwhere, you know, the state got
together in Edinburgh and did alot of charity work in the

(42:04):
Edinburgh stake, et cetera.
The Young Drivers Challenge thatwe did in the Dalkeith Ward,
numerous endless activities andactions that I've been involved
in personally that the vastmajority of that experience has
been incredibly rewarding andenriching for me.
And behind that is theextraordinary, Jim, and you know

(42:28):
this as much as anyone in thechurch, any level, the
extraordinary love and kindnessand sacrifice and caring and
commitment and devotion andservice, again, that the members
provide.
commit and devote on a verypersonal level to help others,

(42:52):
often without reward, almostalways without reward.
People don't get paid.
The members don't get paid to dothis.
We're a volunteer.
I use the word we because Istill feel part of the church in
many ways.
We're a volunteer organization,and we rely almost entirely on
the kindness of and thevolunteerism of the members who

(43:16):
give an extraordinary amount oftime and energy and resources to
support the church and to helpand support each other across a
range of challenges and issues.
And I just want to just touchupon that briefly because this
experience I want to share withyou is, for me at least,

(43:38):
describes the...
extraordinary uniqueness anddistinction of the church in how
the members can bless our livesat a very personal level.
I mentioned earlier that when Ijoined the church, I was in a
pretty bad shape emotionally.
I've shared a bit more of thatdetail on earlier podcasts.
A few moments ago, I shared thatthe incredible value and

(44:04):
importance to me of friendshipsduring the church, people
actually interested in who I wasand me thinking, yeah, why are
they so interested?
And I'm really not worth thatmuch because are my worth more
than what I think I am becausethey're interested in being my
friend.
And it was a very interestingtransitional, emotional,

(44:31):
spiritual time in my life.
But there was one, I mentionedthat there was a leader, a youth
leader that said, Bless my life.
And I want to mention him byname because he's a wonderful
man.
And I hope he one day he mightlisten to this.
His name was Dave Makings, DavidMakings.
And he was the young men'sadvisor.
And he recognized that I wastroubled and that I had these

(44:55):
questions about my life and mydirection and how I felt about
myself.
And he would actually spend moretime with me than the others he
would sit down with me and talkand uh he'd sit down uh you know
he asked me about my you know iwas embarking on a college uh
program at the time he was veryinterested in me about my uh

(45:21):
serving a mission uh interestedabout uh me in terms of my
self-esteem self-confidence hewas a wonderful uh individual he
was a sales manager actually ofa um a very successful company
that I work for.
And he had an abundance ofleadership skills, a great
communicator, a wonderfulleader.
I think he became a bishop inanother ward, but a wonderful

(45:46):
man that was really interestedin people and genuinely
interested in actually buildingpeople, helping people feel
good.
And he took an interest in meand he was just...
the first few conversations Ifind it very difficult to open
up, but over time, over a fewmonths of doing activities and

(46:07):
him organizing the activitiesand the events in MIA and, you
know, lots of new memories, lotsof fun, you know, physical
activities.
And he was also very good atbuilding, doing workshops as
well.
Jimmy did a lot of team buildingworkshops with, with the youth.
Instead of just doing like aregular program, it was very
much about developing, um, Whatwas later described as the SPEC

(46:29):
program, if you remember that.
So the SPEC program and the Uprogram, probably 15 years ago,
was spiritual, physical,educational, and community or
citizenship.
I'm trying to remember.

SPEAKER_01 (46:41):
Spiritual, physical, emotional.

SPEAKER_00 (46:45):
What was it?
I thought it was educational.
But anyway, he kind of practicedthat way, way back, you know,
when I was growing up.
So he was very good at...
talking about how we develop ourprofessional skills or
educational knowledge and skillsand having a desire to go get an
education.
You know, Ian, go get a degree.

(47:06):
You can do this.
He was the first person to sayto me at that time, Ian, you can
do this.
You really can be what you wantto be.
If you put your mind to it andyou put your work in, you can
pass college.
Because I had so many doubts, somany second guesses, and so many
questions about myself andwhether I could do something or
not.
And this inner voice that said,Ian, you can't do this.

(47:30):
It's not who you are.
And that was almost my entireexperience before joining the
church.
But Dave Makins, he wasdifferent.
He said, Ian, you can do this.
You can be successful.
What do you want to do?
How are you going to get there?
What's your strategy?
And it got me thinking.
And I said, Dave, I don't knowif I could do this, this college

(47:52):
thing.
And the mission, I said, theywant me to serve a mission.
And he said, well, how do youfeel about that?
What's your relationship withGod?
So he got to the very core ofwho I was, the very issues and
problems that I was goingthrough.
He listened, he asked questions.
And we talked about the churchand the teaching, the doctrine.
And by the way, he...

(48:13):
was the first person thatactually taught me more than a
song, which is very important,more than a lesson, that I was a
child of God and I was worthsomething.
And God actually cared for meand was interested in me and
that my life had some purpose,some meaning.

(48:36):
And Dave was the first person tohave that conversation with me.
And to remind me that I wasn'tworthless, that I had value,
that I could achieve greatthings.
And I could do that in thegospel of Jesus Christ.
I could go to college.
I could be successful.
I could get a good job.
I could provide for myself.

(48:56):
I could serve in the church.
He always said that when I'mstronger, that the Lord would
require me to help others.
He said, Ian, when you get intoa position where you...
are on higher ground spirituallyand you feel you've got your
confidence and your self-esteem,what do you think the Lord wants

(49:17):
you to do from there on?
And I was like, I said, helpothers.
He said, exactly, that's whatit's about.
And he shared with me some ofhis challenges that he
experienced as a youth andsimilar challenges in terms of
confidence and self-esteem.
So it was interesting that he'dgone through a similar

(49:39):
experience as I did at that age,you know, 16, 17, 18 years old,
et cetera.
And I don't think I was the onlyone at that time that felt lost.
I think, you know, youth, eventoday, of course, you know, we
all go through those experienceswhere it can be quite intense
and you're wondering, you know,what are you going to do for
college?
Or what about your job?
And where's your life going?
And I think a lot of youngpeople even today, feel that

(50:03):
pressure, right?
That stress of, you know, whatare you doing with life?
And your friends are going offdoing great things and you're
like, my goodness, they seem tohave that direction and purpose.
I was very much at all thesequestions, but Dave Makings was
amazing.
He was, I just felt so blessedto have him in my life.
And he is the epitome, Jim, ofthe members in the church, most

(50:27):
of the members.
There is a small differenceminority, a small-minded
minority in the church thatspoil it for others.
They question, they doubt, andthey focus nitpicking on some of
the negative.
That's not been my experience,mostly.
My experience of the membersserving in those different

(50:49):
capacities, the members are justthe most amazing people on the
planet.
They really are.
They care for each other.
I'm not saying they don't talkor gossip about each other.
I don't know any organizationcorporate, professional,
charity, religious, that doesn'thave that gossip element.
That's something that we have todeal with all the time in the

(51:10):
church.
We're no different than anyother organization.
We all talk about each otherpositively, negatively.
That's just human nature.
We have to have a handle onthat.
We have to learn from Christ andwe have to learn from the
teachings.
Whatever religion that we're in,try to look for the good in
people And of course, it'simportant to have those

(51:32):
conversations and to openlyexpress our concerns with, if we
see an individual's behavior,that's inappropriate.
We have to address that.
And we don't have to likeeveryone.
We're required to love everyone.
We don't have to like everyone.
We're commanded to love eachother.
We're not commanded to like eachother.
But we have to work together.
And we have to work together inthe church for a common good.

(51:54):
And if you look at your work,there are people at work that
you probably don't like.
you know, every organization,there are people that don't like
each other, but they have towork together, you know,
professionals.
In the church, it's the same.
You put together in thesecallings and you are required to
work together for a common good,a common purpose, to help them
bless the lives of your quorumor your auxiliary or if you're a

(52:14):
bishop, you know, the ward.
And hopefully in that experiencethat you learn and grow and you
see the qualities and attributesof the people that you're
serving with.
And so the church is at itsgreatest strength and continues
to be at its greatest throughthe extraordinary service and
kindness and love of itsmembers.

(52:37):
And it's an incredibly powerful,in my opinion, the most
important part of the church isthe goodness that exists and
continue to exist and grow inmany ways within the members of
the church.
And I am incredibly gratefulThat the church organization,

(53:01):
the structure of the church, howit's organized, allowed me,
bless my life, to be able towork with others in all kinds of
capacities for the benefit ofothers.
And in fact, that service andcommitment that I devoted, like
so many members do, actuallycame back at me and blessed my

(53:23):
life.
And that's the scriptures,that's the teaching that if you
serve others, if you serve andyou serve God, you're actually
always in debt because you getthe blessings.
So you go out, you sacrifice,you serve, you put the time in,
do it through love, do itproperly.
Try not to do it through dutynecessarily or guilt or a sense

(53:45):
of duty or responsibility,although they're not necessarily
bad things.
The guilt thing is anotherconversation about why we serve.
We should serve because we care,we love, and I believe most
members do that.
And when we do that, we worktogether as a team in that
auxiliary and bless the lives ofindividuals.

(54:06):
And just a quick story.
I remember, I think I shared onan early podcast that when I
decided to serve a mission, Iwent to my company boss and told
him that I was going to servethis Mormon mission for the
Mormon church.
And he thought I was the mostweirdest individual, very angry.
They'd invested quite a bit oftraining in me.
And I was being relativelysuccessful in that technical

(54:28):
role.
And then time came to put mypapers in and got called to
Scotland.
And then met with my, I think Ihad about six weeks before I
left to go to Scotland.
So I got my, I think I got mypapers in November 86 or
December 86 in January, end ofJanuary is when I was heading to

(54:50):
the London MPC.
So that was the time when I gotthe call to Scotland to go sit
down with my boss and tell him,hey, you know, I'm staying with
the company.
I'm going on this Mormonmission.
They knew I was a member of thechurch, but didn't show any
interest in that.
And then I, and then I told himthe news and he fired me on the
spot.
As I mentioned earlier in thepodcast, I was quite shocked.
I remember going to my desk andseeing it on the movies where

(55:12):
you put all your stuff into abox and then you walk.
I had a company car, so I had nocompany car.
And I walked to the bus stopwith this cardboard box with my
stuff in.
I felt absolutely numb.
But anyway, that was thesituation.
But what happened, I had thistwo months, six weeks or so
before I went to Scotland.
And the bishop there, BishopWainwright, amazing leader, and

(55:34):
Doris Carlton, who's the ladythat is the family member who
allowed me to live with themafter I was thrown out of my
home and joined the church.
And Doris was wonderful, andColin, wonderful people who
allowed me to stay with theirfamily for a while.

(55:55):
And then, so...
this time I had before I went toScotland, the Bishop Wainwright
said, well, look, we need you towork with, we'd like you to work
with the Relief Society personwho was Doris, so I knew Doris
very well.
And then we, the job was todrive Doris to Sheffield, which
is another stake.
And it was the Bishop'sStorehouse.

(56:16):
And we were, there's like a minisupermarket underneath the
foundations of that building inSheffield.
And we would push it like atrolley, as they call it in UK,
a shopping cart around thatsupermarket kind of thing.
And we would then collect foodfor members in the ward, in the
ward that I was in at the time,in the Huddersfield stake.

(56:36):
And we would collect all thatfood for about 20 families, Jim.
And these are families who werestruggling financially, who were
on welfare, who the bishop hadidentified as being in need.
And I worked for six weeksbefore I came to Scotland with
Doris.
And it was like a weekly thing.
And I did the driving and I putthe stuff into the cart.

(56:59):
And then we would deliverparcels of food to those members
who were in need.
And it was amazing to be able tosee their faces when we knocked
on the door and say, hey, here,we've got you some provisions.
So I've got you some food.
And these were fairly big boxes.
There were sometimes two orthree boxes because they were

(57:21):
families.
And so I did that for six weeksand did it under the pretext
organization of doris who wasvery organized way more
organized than i was and that'swhat we did and again another um
incredible aspect of love andkindness leadership from bishop

(57:41):
wainwright to be able toorganize that put that food
together take it to the familieswho didn't have much and to see
their faces and um emotional intears they couldn't believe it
when they receive that.
So these are...
And we could go on forever.
The podcast is not long enough,frankly.

(58:03):
But the list of qualities andattributes and blessings that
the church, through itsorganization and through its
members, that it continues toprovide and deliver to its
members is just extraordinary.
And I could talk all day,frankly, about so many...

(58:23):
wonderful experiences like that.
And I've shared, you know, acouple of insights.
And just in kind of wrapping upmy thoughts here at this stage
in that conversation, theseexperiences, Jim, for me, who
has gone through all thatpersonal, emotional changes, the
interest from the leaders, thesupport from the leaders, the
belief in me that I could besomething that I, you know, more

(58:44):
than I thought I was of myself.
And then to provide It's notenough, I think, just to have
the word, the conversation,someone sitting in front of you
and saying, hey, you can dothese things.
You have to do it.
You have to get up, get your assoff, you know, the seat, right?
Get out there and serve.
And in that service, and this isthe thing that saved me, that

(59:09):
changed me.
In that acting on the advisingcouncil that I got, Ian, you can
do it.
Now go do it.
these are the things that youneed to do to change how you
feel about yourself and havesome purpose and meaning in
life.
Here's, you know, you do itthrough service.
You go help others and you don'thave to wait to be saved to go

(59:29):
save someone else.
The saving of someone else iswhat actually saves you.
And that's what happened to me.
So I'm not anywhere near healedat this stage, you know, with,
you know, 17, 18 years old.
But all those service services,opportunities that I had to help
others actually was the thingthat healed me, that changed me,

(59:51):
that transformed me, that gaveme purpose and gave me
self-esteem, gave me someconfidence.
I was thought, wow, I can dothis.
I can actually help someone.
I didn't think I could helpanyone.
I couldn't even help myself incertain areas.
And then people thought, Ian,thank you.
And I'm like, wow, I canactually, I can do this.

(01:00:11):
And when you start to learn thatyou can do it yourself without,
you know, someone can say theybelieve in you and you can do
it.
That's one thing that'simportant.
But when you see it and youexperience it yourself, that you
can actually achieve certainthings and help others and be
successful.
Yeah.
in helping others.

(01:00:32):
And you see how that transformstheir lives and how grateful
they are.
It was, it was, there were timesI cried.
I, you know, I'd been bed atnight, I'd pray and I'd cry and
I'd open my heart and I would beso grateful.
And I felt the spirit and Ibelieve the spirit and I still
feel that same spirit today is,you know, when I serve and give
of others, that's a universalspirit.

(01:00:53):
I don't think that's necessarilyunique to the church, but that's
the thing, Jim, that transformedme that, you know, the church
was the vehicle, the structure,the organization, the members
and commitment, devotion, um,provided the, um, the
leadership, the support, thedirection, the experience for
someone like me.
And then the doing bit, theservice bit was the thing that,

(01:01:16):
um, had a, extraordinary impactto me and the spirituality that
came from that.
And then it affects how you feelabout yourself, what you think
about yourself.
And you start to feel you've gotworth and value.
And then you realize that you'rea child of God, that you've got
this value, this purpose.

(01:01:38):
And so the church does that, allof that that I've tried to
communicate.
And it's difficult for me toarticulate and communicate these
things because they're very, youknow, they're quite emotional
for me and it's difficult for meto describe that in words.
You have to experience ityourself and I know you have,

(01:01:58):
but I would say that is one areaof, in my opinion, the most
significant area that the churchdoes, continues to do and I'm
so, so grateful for all themembers in the church, past and
present, who have had anextraordinary experience impact

(01:02:18):
on my life.
I haven't forgotten them.
I hope they haven't forgottenme.
I certainly haven't forgottenthem.
And these impressions, thesespiritual, spiritual experience
lead this indelible, um,eternal, not just in this life,
but internal impression upon ourvarious souls.
And I will never forget thesethings.
I don't want to forget them.
I will always remember them.

(01:02:38):
I remember them often.
And, um, they have transformedmy life.
So I, you know, I, These are theextraordinary blessings that the
church brings into people'slives.
And I just want our listenersto, I know they know that

(01:02:59):
already, but I just want to,even though I'm out of the
church, I cannot and will notever forget or let go of those
experiences.
It's who I am, it's who I wantto be, and it shaped the very
core of my being and my soul.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:16):
I think those are great last words here for this
podcast.
I think that sums it up nicely.
I agree with everything yousaid.
I really appreciate all of thosestories.
And I'm just so grateful that weget a chance to talk about this
kind of thing.
I just think it's reallyimportant that we step back

(01:03:38):
every once in a while andrecognize why it is we're doing
this.
Why it is we talk about thechurch, why it is that we're so
focused on this, it's because welove this church.
It's because this church hasblessed our lives.
This church is a force for good.
And so I'm very grateful to hearthose stories and to share that

(01:04:01):
with you.
And I'm very grateful toeverybody who takes the time to
listen to us every week, to hearthese stories, because it helps
us more than you know.
The feedback that we get fromyou just, it just means more to
us than you know.
I don't know how to describe it,but I'm so grateful for it.

(01:04:23):
So with that, Ian, do you haveany other parting or summation
words?

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:30):
I don't.
I don't.
And I also want to say I want tothank you.
And I just really appreciatethis conversation.
And I hope to have many moreconversations like this as well.
Because as I said earlier,There's so many great things
that the church does, and weforget that.
It's got all these challengesand problems, but it does so
many great things, and I'm sograteful.
And I want the church toimprove.

(01:04:51):
I don't want it to go away.
The things I described, I wantit to grow.
I want all of what I'vedescribed to grow and expand and
continue.
I know you can get that in otherchurches and I get that.
So I want the church to thrivein a very positive, in a very
inclusive, in a veryconstructive way.
So I'm very, very grateful toyou, Jim, for having these
conversations.
As I said, you know, we've got along, long list of wonderful

(01:05:14):
experiences in the church.
I'm grateful to our listeners.
We appreciate you, all of youout there listening to us and
being patient with us.
Thank you.
And we are excited to sharethese experiences And we look
forward to seeing you or beingwith you next week from Jim and
I on Inside Out.
Thank you for joining us.
God bless.

(01:05:34):
Love to you all.
Thank you, Jim.
Thank you, Ian.