Are We The Baddies?

Ian and Jim discuss America's abandonment of Ukraine and what the Church's role ought to be as the world devolves into chaos. 

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside

(00:18):
Out.
My name is Ian Wilkes.
I'm here with the magnanimousMr.
Jim Bennett.

SPEAKER_01 (00:26):
Hello.
I magnanimously welcome you aswell to this latest episode
because that's how magnanimous Iam.

SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
You are certainly magnanimous, for sure.
And I'm going to do a lot moreresearch on big words.
In the future, I'm going to comewith some big words and I...
I'd be interested to see if youwill know what those words are
to describe you.
So, because you're very good atthe big words, and I thought I
was good, but I need to do alittle bit of training there, a

(00:57):
little bit of research in there.
And we'll continue to have fundescribing each other with these
big words.
Chip, it's so good to be withyou.
I always look forward to theseconversations.
What drives me is, you know, theneed to help others, right?
in some way, in some form, insome fashion.
I'm encouraged by the responsewe get from many of our

(01:18):
listeners that the podcasts thatwe're doing are helpful in some
form.
We try to stay on track in termsof, you know, dealing with the
church issues and the doctrineand the history and low social
aspects of the church.
And of course, sometimes we moveslightly outside of the main
periphery of our scope of ourpodcast, which I think is also

(01:40):
very good.
And at times we talk aboutpolitics and we talk about
politics because, and worldaffairs, because these things
are important to us personallyand our families.
And we have people in ourfriendships and in our work who
also have strong opinions onpolitics and religion.

(02:01):
And it's important.
I think it's important to beable to have these conversations
about the relationship betweenthe church and politics and
what's going on in the world.
And it's important to have civildiscourse, to be respectful, be
kind.
We're not going to agree oneverything.
There's, you know, across allthis is probably a wide band of
political views and thoughts.

(02:22):
And that's great.
I think it's important to haveyour own views, whether you're
Republican or Democrat, whetheryou're Labour, Conservative,
Liberal Democrat, like in theUK.
You can hold any view you want.
We live in mostly a free world,not entirely.
We'll talk about that, I think,on the podcast and what's going
on there, about freedom, libertyand family.

(02:43):
I'm looking forward to gettinginto that.
But it's important, I think, to,if you feel so strongly as I do
and you do about certain things,things that are going on in the
world, then it's important to beable to talk about that and
understand that in the contextof the church.
And we've said repeatedly thatthere are major events happening
in the world.
You know, Ukraine, the MiddleEast, you know, North Korea,

(03:06):
Iran, you know, UK, major issuesin the UK in terms of social
challenges, a lot of issues inthe US.
We have big issues here inCanada.
There's a lot of the issues thatwe talk about span the world.
They're not just unique to thesecountries, but they affect the
world like immigration, economy,jobs.

(03:27):
These are things that impactpeople on a very serious and a
very personal level.
And I have strong feelings likeyou and many others do on
certain things, especially whenit impacts global events happen
and how that impacts people.
us here locally in Canada or inthe US or anywhere.

(03:48):
So these are significant eventsand occurrences happening in the
world.
And I still, even though I'moutside the church, I look to
the church.
I look to the church leadershipto have a position on certain
things, to come out and speak upabout really important things
that are going on.
And there's something happenedrecently that really, really

(04:09):
bothers me.
And as I said earlier before wedid this podcast, With the Trump
administration, I think I got tothe point where I was saying to
myself, nothing surprises meanymore.
And I wake up the next day orinto the next day, and lo and
behold, something has happened.
And it's actually shocked me orsurprised me.

(04:34):
And so the one thing I wantto...
Looking forward to having thisconversation with you about...
is something that happened uh inthe last um in the last couple
days so uh you know the trumpadministration is into what how
many weeks now is it four fiveweeks now

SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
uh january 20th again it's about a month or a

SPEAKER_00 (05:00):
little more a little more than a month so trump uh
came into that position in itsentirety about a month ago.
And a lot's happened.
I'm sure you'll agree.
A lot has happened in the lastmonth or so.
And, you know, a lot of that,those decisions, a lot of those

(05:24):
actions have impacted the UnitedStates significantly.
Certainly impacting us appearingin Canada, like the tariffs, for
example.
That's a big topic right nowwith Mexico and Canada and all
these tariffs and there's otherdecisions that are affecting the
United States population butthere are decisions that have
been made that are affecting therelationships between America

(05:47):
and the rest of the world andagain I want to highlight the
need for my hope that The churchhas some position.
The church of Jesus Christ ofLatter-day Saints, which is, as
they claim, is the only truechurch upon the face of the
earth and in regular contactwith God.
And presumably, God is watchingwhat's going on in the world and

(06:08):
has an opinion, a thought even,an idea, a suggestion, something
to say.
to the prophet, PresidentNelson, on the earth about what
the heck is going on in theworld.
So what is, and I asked you ifwe could talk about this today
because I feel so strongly andeven if I have, I hope our

(06:29):
listeners will get some of this,but I really do, but I know it
will make me feel better to getcertain things off my chest.
And so recently there's been aUnited Nations vote.
I want to talk about the Ukrainesituation as the thing that's
really important unhinged me.
I'll use that word.
I feel unhinged right nowbecause America has done

(06:50):
something that I did not expect.
And I'm quite shocked and veryshocked and stunned, actually.
So the US, in a recent series ofUnited Nations votes on
condemning Russia for itsillegal and naked aggression
against Ukraine and invadingUkraine three years ago, almost

(07:13):
three years ago and a few days,where a vote was tabled to
condemn Russia's actions andaggression.
The U.S., in these two keyvotes, certainly, sided with
Russia in the United Nations tomark this third anniversary of
the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

(07:34):
And it also highlights Trump'sposition changes on the stance
of the wall.
First, the first one was thatthe US opposed a
European-drafted resolutioncondemning Russia's actions and
supporting Ukraine's territorialintegrity.
America voted the same way asRussia and other countries,

(07:56):
including North Korea andBelarus, at the United Nations
General Assembly.
That was in New York.
Then the US drafted and votedfor a resolution at the United
Nations Security Council, whichcalled for an end to the
conflict, but contained nocriticism of Russia.
And of course, the SecurityCouncil passed the resolution,
but two key US allies, UK andFrance, abstained after their

(08:19):
attempts to amend the wording.
The main one for me was themotion that was tabled to
condemn Russia's actions.
And for me, based on reliable,trusted information, verifiable,
trusted, not misinformation ordisinformation, but reliable

(08:40):
information that Russia did infact invade Ukraine illegally,
breaking all internationalrules, invaded a sovereign
nation without provocation.
There's another conversation.
I can argue against that if youwant.
But it took the act to invadeUkraine.

(09:02):
And we've seen extraordinarydeath and destruction from that
decision, from the act.
It's been going on for threeyears.
On both sides, there's beenhundreds of thousands of deaths.
Unnecessary.
Could have been avoided.

(09:22):
But Russia, because of its...
And Putin's personal...
aspirations, and I've researchedthis, that it's reliable to
expand and reabsorb thosecountries back into the Russian
Empire.
Imperialism.
Naked imperialism.

(09:44):
Not to necessarily fight againstNATO's expansion.
That could be a part of it.
I think it is a part of it.
But based on my research, Putinis driven by by this idealistic
approach of restoring Russia'sgreatness and seeing Ukraine

(10:09):
historically as it was.
I mean, I can understand thishistorical relationship or some
of the between Ukraine andRussia and trying to recover
Ukraine as a lost territory orgeography that originally was
part of Russia or part ofRussia's culture.
And the argument for doing thatis all kinds of arguments, like

(10:32):
destroying the Nazi influencethere, protecting
Russian-speaking individuals inUkraine, etc.
There may or may not be sometruth to that, but Putin's main
focus is to expand and reabsorband expand the Russian influence

(10:54):
there by taking over Ukraine,and he won't stop there.
Trump thinks it's about land,thinks that we can solve this by
concessions, by giving land, butPutin's ambitions are greater
than just land.
It's absorbing the entirecountry, its culture, its

(11:14):
people, and its land back intothe fold.
And so it took this decision toinvade Ukraine, The world, most
of the world at that time,except for North Korea, Russia,
of course, Tehran, Iran, andBelarus, condemned and continue
to condemn Putin's decision,Russia's actions there.

(11:36):
And so this opportunity,especially on the anniversary of
the third year, again, all thesethousands of people have died.
And by the way, Russiakidnapped, physically, children
and took them into Russia.
That has been verified.
And breaking rules around warand using bombs and munitions

(12:01):
that they're not supposed to,and in some cases, allegations
of chemical weapons, albeit on asmall scale, which, again, that
needs to be investigated.
So absolutely terrible, awful,illegal actions destruction
caused by the decision.

(12:22):
And an opportunity over the lastfew days to condemn Russia for
its decisions and its actions.
And now we have America who isnow sided essentially with
Russia and with North Korea andwith Belarus.
And I just can't believe that.

(12:42):
And so That shocks me, but alsoequally as shocking is where's
the church on this?
Where's the leadership?
Does the church have an opinionon this?
You know, what's the right thingto do?
Is it to stand up and speak upand speak out as the church?
They say, no, we condemnRussia's actions.

(13:03):
We do not agree with thepresident of the United States
of America who's sided withRussia.
Where's the church on this?
What about the principles in theBook of Mormon on freedom,
liberty, family, for doing theright thing?
I did a little bit of researchand there is extensive material

(13:25):
that the church has to protectreligious freedom, to protect
the basic freedoms of people andthe rights of people and to
respect human rights.
The church is an amazingorganization at speaking up for
stuff like that.
and going to these differentevents and organizations and
promoting the need and value offreedoms, including religious

(13:47):
freedoms.
And as the mouthpiece of theearth, President Nelson, what is
God saying to President Nelsonon this?
Does God have an opinion as hecommunicated that to President
Nelson?
Where's the church leadershipposition on this?
Why can't we speak up andcondemn this decision by the

(14:10):
President of the United States,who represents, obviously,
America.
You could tell in my tone I feelvery angry, actually, upset and
disappointed, because it's, youknow, by being silent, you know,
we are, the Church says ifyou're silent, then you're
actually, you're part of the,you know, you're part of the

(14:32):
decision.
You condone it in some way, oryou're not disagreeing with it.
So, Anyway, I appreciate beingable to get this off my chest,
vent this.
Would love to get your opinionon this and what you think is
going on.
We try our best to remainfocused on the scope of the
Inside Out, to focuspredominantly on the church.

(14:55):
But of course, politics, globalaffairs, they impact us, they
impact the church.
And the church, and I'll closemy opening comments on this, the
church must, should, have aposition on these issues.
And I'm hoping that we'll hearfrom the president of the church

(15:16):
in due course, that we will readsomething or see something, even
in a press release.
Anyway, you've been very patientwith my opening remarks.
I'll stop and hand the time overand ask you, do you feel as
strong as I do?
Am I completely out to lunchhere?
Are my feelings misplaced?
Do I feels so strongunnecessarily.

(15:37):
But what are your thoughts onthis and in respect to the
church taking a position on someof this stuff?

SPEAKER_01 (15:47):
Well, I have many.
And I don't think that this isoutside the scope of this
podcast.
As I've talked many times aboutwhen we've talked about Trump,
it's not just to expresspolitical opinions.
It's to, as you describe,demonstrate what kind of impact

(16:08):
this is having on the church andalso on the faith of people in
the church.
Trump every day is a trial of myfaith.
He's not just an odious,terrible, dictator-like

(16:29):
authoritarian leader, and he isall of those things.
But he is a trial of my faithbecause I believe this is the
church of Jesus Christ and I'vebeen taught all my life that we
are given the gift of the HolyGhost at the age of eight when
we are confirmed members of thechurch, that we have a unique

(16:52):
spirit of discernment that therest of the world does not have.
And if that's true, how is itpossible that we could have
thrown in in such large numberswith such a terrible, odious
man.
And so it continues to be atrial of my faith that my fellow

(17:14):
Latter-day Saints not only arenot disturbed by this, but they
applaud this, that they areembracing this, that they see
Trump as a manifestation of God,not an enemy to him.
When I think it's absolutelyclear that he is an enemy to all

(17:34):
things that are good, that he'san enemy to decency, to honesty,
to integrity.
All of the values that have beeninculcated in me as a result of
my membership in the church arevalues that Trump disdains and
has absolutely no use for.
So I just want to say, as yousay, well, you know, we have to

(17:56):
talk politics, and I know weusually talk about the church.
To me, they are inseparable.
You know, the Doctrine andCovenants talks about that The
spiritual and the temporal areinseparable.
In the case of Trump, I'd saythe political and the religious
are inseparable because theimplications of the fact that
Latter-day Saints see Trumppositively and embrace and

(18:20):
support him, that is acontinuing trial of my faith on
a daily basis.
I got a text from my sisteryesterday saying, oh, I really
wish Dad were still here.
My father were still here.
Because somehow he might be ableto make sense of this.
And it's interesting.
This is the first podcast you'verecorded since I got back from

(18:44):
Peru.
I was in Peru for five days withthe Tabernacle Choir on Temple
Square.
And we performed.
It was just a magnificentexperience all the way around.
And we performed in this massivestadium.
that this Estadio Nacional rightin Lima, Peru, and there were

(19:07):
over 30,000 people that were inattendance.
Many of them had lined up earlyin the day and standing in the
summer heat.
It's summer down there.
And they were just a raucous andwonderfully appreciative crowd.
I felt a little bit like I was arock star.

(19:28):
I felt like Freddie Mercury atLive Aid.
It was just a lot of fun.
But it was also interesting.
We did two concerts when we wereover there.
One was the big concert onSaturday night, but the other
one was a, they call it the VIPconcert.
And it was for Peruvianofficials.

(19:51):
And bigwigs, and I don't knowthe political structures of
Peruvian government, butapparently a lot of the heavy
hitters were in that room.
But on the front row of thatroom were Mitt and Ann Romney.
They had come, and myunderstanding is they are
working with the church in termsof establishing relationships

(20:15):
with governmentsinternationally.
And they were there the entiretime.
I only saw Mitt at that concert,but Ann Romney went on some of
the sightseeing expeditions withthe choir.
And so they were there theentire time we were.
And I was one of a handful ofchoir members that was selected

(20:35):
to do kind of a meet and greetafterwards.
And I had the opportunity toactually go shake Mitt Romney's
hand.
I've met him several timesbefore.
I reminded him of that.
He acted like he remembered me.
I'm pretty sure he didn't.
But that's okay.
I mean, he meets...
My father always used to say,when you're in politics, you can

(20:55):
never say, nice to meet you.
Because then they will alwayssay, I met you and I talked to
you 14 years ago.
Don't you remember?
So Mitt was very gracious.
And I told him a couple ofthings.
One of the things I said to himwas, I don't think you
appreciate...
I don't think you know howmuch...

(21:18):
the Bennett family appreciatedyour vote to convict Trump in
the first impeachment trial.
Because that, when you did that,it felt like dad was still with
us.
It felt like that's something myfather would have done and you
had the courage to do it.

(21:39):
And I told him, I consider thatthe greatest act of political
courage I have seen or expect tosee in my lifetime.
And he seemed to be touched bythat.
And Anne was definitely touchedby that.
And she was willing to go offand say, I don't understand.
Don't people realize this iswicked King Noah?

(22:02):
Can't they see Trump for who heis?
And Mitt was a bit morecircumspect.
I think he recognizes thatanything he says, even
privately, has the potential ofshowing up on the front page of
the New York Times.
But Mitt, you know, so I hadthat conversation with him.

(22:22):
And what I got a sense of inPeru, oh, and the other thing
that happened in Peru is we hada sacrament meeting right before
we left.
And Elder Suarez spoke of theQuorum of the Twelve.
He was there the entire time.
He came to the concert.
The concert was narratedentirely in Spanish.

(22:44):
Most of the songs we sang werein Spanish.
And we had a teleprompter thathad the words written out
phonetically so that we wouldn'tmispronounce them.
But Elder Suarez gave a talk andI confess I was a little
disappointed in Elder Suarez'stalk because there was nothing

(23:05):
in his talk that you and I andanybody that listens to General
Conference or listens to SundaySchool or whatever else it is,
hasn't heard a million timesbefore.
I mean, it was very nice andpleasant talk.
And I had somebody say, oh,aren't we blessed to have an
apostle speak to us?
And I'm like, well, yes.

(23:26):
And wouldn't it be nice if heactually said something?
There was just no real substanceto it.
And as I consider that and Ithought about that, I want to
answer your questions.
Based on that experience, doesthe church have an opinion?
Why isn't the church speakingout?
And I think the answer to thatquestion is I think the church

(23:49):
probably has many opinions andmany strong opinions.
And I think they see themselvesas being shackled, is maybe too
strong a word, but being limitedin terms of what they feel they
can say.

(24:11):
in an international church.
What I got from Mitt Romney,what I got from just the whole
Peru experience is that thechurch is trying very hard to
establish itself as aninternational church.
On paper, we have more membersoutside of the United States
than we have inside the UnitedStates.

(24:32):
And so I think we can make thecase that we are an
international church, but we arenot perceived that way.
I think, internationally.
We continue to be perceived asan American church.
And I think in many ways, wereally still are an American
church.
Culturally, we are an Americanchurch.

(24:52):
Culturally, the Americaninfluence is pervasive no matter
where you go.
And I think the church leadersare trying very hard to dial
that back.
And I think that It's a mixedbag as to whether they're
succeeding.
So I think that is the reasonwhy we're not hearing more

(25:15):
pointed opinions, is that Ithink they think that will
reinforce the idea of theAmerican church.
So I offer that by way ofexplanation, not by way of
excuse.
Because I'm with you.
I'm 100% with you.
They need to be speaking outabout this because...
It's just so morallycontemptible to be on the side

(25:40):
of the dictators, to be on theside of the communists.
It's stunning.
You go back in church history.
You don't have to go very farback.
We're not talking the times ofJoseph Smith.
We're talking mid to late 20thcentury history where church
leaders would get up inconference.
I've got a series of quoteshere.

(26:02):
As Jeff Benson, I think, wasone, wasn't he?
Oh, jeez, yes.
President Benson, his entireministry in the Quorum of the
Twelve was focused on condemningcommunism.
Here's some quotes.
He says, We must ever keep inmind that collectivized control
over private property is not theUnited Order but is socialism,

(26:23):
which is part of the communiststrategy.
And no true Latter-day Saint andno true American can be a
socialist or a communist.
or support programs leading inthat direction.
He wrote in a book, We must bevigilant in exposing and
opposing communism in all itsforms, for it seeks to destroy
faith in God and to make thestate supreme.

(26:45):
J.
Raymond Clarke says, Communismand socialism are state slavery.
No matter what you call it,communism, socialism, the
welfare state, or any othername, it is enslaving the soul
of man.
Bruce R.
McConkie, communism is Satan'scounterfeit for the gospel plan,
and it is an avowed enemy of theGod of the land.

(27:07):
And I could go on and on and on.
They were very outspoken aboutthis.
Well, when Mitt Romney ran forpresident in 2012, he said that
Russia was our biggest enemy.
foe on the international stage.
And he was mocked by PresidentObama in the debate.

(27:31):
He says, yeah, the 80s called.
They want their foreign policyback.
And the Republican Party wasmocked and ridiculed for being
opposed to Russia, being opposedto communism.
Now, Russia now does not overtlyclaim to be a communist nation
anymore now that the SovietUnion has fallen.

(27:51):
But nothing has changed.
And in fact, Vladimir Putin ismore of an authoritarian than
any Russian leader, with maybethe exception of Joseph Stalin.
All the communist leaders didwas use communism as a pretext
for an authoritariandictatorship.

(28:13):
And now Putin just doesn't evenuse the pretext anymore.
Putin is open with it.
He's a dictator.
He's an authoritarian.
Now, China is still...
a communist government, althoughthere have been a lot of market
reforms.
It's not what it was in itsMaoist heyday.
But North Korea is a Stalinistcommunist state.

(28:37):
These are all the countries nowthat America is now aligned
with, that America voted with.
We have turned our backs onNATO.
When you talk about, well, jeez,they're not going to get NATO
membership.
NATO has been renderedirrelevant by Donald Trump.
Donald Trump has told NATO thatsince they're not paying their

(28:59):
dues, he thinks that they paysome fee to be part of NATO when
that's not how it works.
But he said, well, I'm going totell Russia they can do whatever
they want.
That's a direct quote from thepresident of the United States.
I mean, this is so flagrantlywrong.

(29:21):
This is so disturbing.
This is so unnerving.
And it is so immoral.
It's not just a politicaldisagreement.
We're not talking aboutlegitimate policy differences.
We are talking about good versusevil.
We are talking about aligningwith what Bruce R.

(29:44):
McConkie called the avowed enemyof the God of the land.
We are talking about about theUnited States being the bad
guys.
I'm reminded of this skit onBritish television.
I don't know what the programwas, but it's two Nazi SS

(30:05):
officers.
And one of them says, well, whydo we have a skull on our caps?
Isn't that disturbing to you?
Are we the baddies?
He says, it feels like we're thebaddies.
And they talk about that overand over again, and it's played
for laughs.

(30:25):
But I look at what's happeningon the international stage now,
and we're the baddies.
America is one of the baddies.
George W.
Bush, after 9-11, described theaxis of evil, and he put North
Korea in the axis of evil.
These are evil nations.

(30:47):
Well, we're now part of the axisof evil.
We're lining up with those guys.
We're lining up with thebaddies.
We're not lining up with thegood guys.
We're not lining up with thepeople who have been our allies
since World War II.
It's just up is down, black iswhite, and it's Latter-day

(31:09):
Saints who are cheering it on.
This is what's breaking myheart.
It's the Mormons who are goingagainst, I mean, all the people
who support Trump also wouldtell you that they adore Ezra
Taft Benson and they adore thefar-right ideology that church

(31:30):
leaders have tried to distancethemselves from, but which was,
you know, espoused by Ezra TaftBenson, by J.
Reuben Clark, by Spencer W.
Kimball.
I have a quote here, communismis a godless philosophy that
seeks to destroy man's agencyand enslave him to the state.

(31:50):
That was in 1977.
I mean, that wasn't in the 19thcentury.
That's recent enough that mostpeople who are alive today were
alive when that was said.
I mean, this is And we have justabandoned all of this as a
church.
We have moved away from this.

(32:11):
And church leaders, I do think,I am told repeatedly, and I
believe it, that behind thescenes, church leaders are not
Trump fans.
They recognize how problematicDonald Trump is.
I've had actually multiplepeople tell me that not a single
member of the Quorum of theTwelve or the First Presidency

(32:34):
voted for Donald Trump.
I can't confirm that.
That's speculation.
But if all of that's true,they're not speaking out for
what reason?

(32:55):
And it feels like cowardice.
I can't think of any otherappropriate word.
I don't know that they woulddescribe it as cowardice because
they would describe it as, okay,we're trying not to be an
American church.
We're trying not to comment onlyon what happens in America.
And yet, it was only, what, twoyears ago that President Oaks

(33:16):
gave a talk about the UnitedStates Constitution and General
Conference?
I think it's a fool's errand tothink that we're ever going to
get away from how tied we are toAmerican culture.
The idea that suddenly that'sgoing to disappear, I just don't

(33:39):
see it.
I just don't see how that'sgoing to work.
And so if we are still tied toAmerican culture, and if
Latter-day Saints in America arealigning with evil in the form
of Donald Trump, then yeah, Ithink the church has a duty to
speak out.
And I am just as frustrated asyou are that they're not willing

(34:01):
to do it.
So that's my rant in response toyour rant.
And I just, so where does thisleave us?

SPEAKER_00 (34:09):
Yeah, this is like a, for me, it's like a
counseling session.
You should be able to talk aboutthese things and get it off the
chest.
And, you know, I, I'm notAmerican.
You are.
You, you know, you understandAmerica far more than I do.
I can say that our relationship,my family and my personal
relationship with America isone.
I hold America in high regard, agreat deal of respect, continue

(34:32):
to do.
That won't change.
We have a lot of friends in theStates.
We go there many, many times onholiday, on business, et cetera.
We have an affinity withAmerica, the American people.
We love America.
We have high expectations,rightly or wrongly, that
America, a good, strong America,acting with integrity, with

(34:55):
fairness, but firmness as well,is essential, critical for
stability in the world, with noquestion.
You know, militarily,economically, politically,
socially.
When America is, it sounds likewe're describing the church
again, but when America is doingthe right things, and it does a

(35:16):
lot of the time, it is the mostextraordinary country.
It's got the can-do attitude.
You know, I grew up in asocialistic environment in the
uk that was a very differentenvironment to what i have here
in canada and my experience inthe united states and america
has um the can do get it doneattitude on the projects that i

(35:41):
work on in the big projects weare i always welcomed and a few
of us did the American companiesthat would come in to work on
the projects.
And in fact, a lot of theBritish jurisdictions,
governments over there, theauthorities there would prefer
the Americans to be on theproject because there was a
attitude of getting things done,getting it done and getting it

(36:04):
done right and bringing thatcan-do attitude.
And America's known for that.
You know, getting things done,motivation, driven, competitive,
and that brings a lot ofqualities.
And this has been my personaland my professional experience
working with professionals inthe United States.

(36:27):
And my friends in America arevery incredible people,
extraordinarily motivated,talented individuals.
I'm not saying America has amonopoly on talent or can-do
attitude.
I'm saying I see that attitudemore in abundance in America
than I do anywhere else in theworld.
I've traveled to other parts ofthe world.

(36:48):
We need a good, strong Americain the world.
Without that anchor, we're introuble.
And we're now seeing thedecision from the President of
the United States, who ischanging the fundamentals of of
those basic important principlesabout integrity, honesty and

(37:14):
rule of law and essentiallydoing the right thing.
You may or may not have seensome of my comments on Facebook.
I felt so strongly I put some ofthese things on Facebook and I
get very little response andthat's okay.
I don't know if people areconcerned or afraid to post or
whether it would ensue in anargument online.
And again, I said earlier thatwe need to have I think we need

(37:36):
to talk about these things.
Social media is a platform to dothat.
And I think we can have a civiland positive discourse, a
respectful discourse on that.
Some of the things I've saidthat I feel so strongly about
that I put on Facebook is forthe first time in history, a
president of the United Statesof America has voted with the
enemies of the free world,Russia, North Korea, Belarus.

(37:57):
If there is a leader of the freeworld, it is not, I repeat, not
the president of the UnitedStates.
I've also said that on the thirdanniversary of Russia's
full-scale invasion of Ukraine,during a key vote at the UN
General Assembly, the UnitedStates of America sided with

(38:18):
Russia and North Korea in votingagainst the resolution
condemning Russia's illegal war.
Russia and North Korea mustabsolutely love America right
now.
I'm lost for words.
And then earlier I put on herethat described Putin and Trump
as like the Godfather moviewhere you've got the Corleone

(38:42):
family and Don Corleone is theDon and he's got a rival, got a
number of rivals, but Don EmilioBarzini is the other rival there
in the Mafia movie there in theGodfather.
And I go in a little bit aboutwhy I see a similarity between
Trump and Putin looking likegangster, godfather-type

(39:05):
politics, carving up Ukraine,going into Ukraine, basically.
And there's a deal being donethis Thursday, Friday, by the
way, where America will takehalf of much of the GDP of
Ukraine in return for investingin Ukraine without any security
guarantees.
It's like a shakedown.
It's like, look, I get that youneed to get the money back.

(39:26):
I understand that.
But I understand that America'sput billions in, and so has
Europe, by the way.
I think it's very, very close.
Not the 300 billion, that.
By the way, in terms of thefacts, Trump gets a lot of the
information incorrect, blurtsout these numbers, and a lot of
the time is either lying or isfactually incorrect and can be

(39:48):
proven.
And by the way, two days ago atthe press conference, press
meeting that they had in frontof Trump there, I think it was
at the White House, whereMacron, President of France,
showed up.
Trump talked about the financialconditions with Ukraine, loans
and investment, and Macronpublicly had to correct him, did

(40:11):
it very nicely, put his hand onTrump's hand and said, actually,
no, you're wrong.
You've got that wrong.
Again, for our listeners, youshould go and look at that.
You know, this is not somethingthat the, I'm not talking about
any media reporting.
I'm talking about going tolisten to what Trump is saying,
what words are coming out of hismouth, and then watching the

(40:31):
French president correct himnicely, more than I think what
Trump deserved, publicly, andlistening to what the French
president had to say.
It did a remarkable job there.
And so you've got this presidentwho is a liar, who's not
concerned about facts and truth.

(40:53):
who is now behaving like a mafiagangster, carving up Ukraine,
deciding what's happening withUkraine, with Russia, without
Ukraine at the table.
It's extraordinary.
And so I've commented on theseon my Facebook social media, and

(41:14):
I've not commented on the churchbecause I don't want to bring
the church into disrepute.
However, I am looking...
to the church for leadership.
The church is very, you know,you talked earlier about, you
know, why is the church notresponding?
Is it in a difficult place?
It has these opinions, but it'safraid of sharing them.

(41:37):
Is it a bit cowardly?
I think it is.
I think the church is veryconcerned about what it says
politically.
But if you go back in time andyou've given this as an example,
it seems that the church leadershave not been afraid to speak
up.
You've given us five or sixquotes.
If you go back further in time,the leaders of the church are

(41:57):
completely unafraid aboutspeaking the mind.
If you go back even further intime to the Book of Mormon,
there's examples with Nephi,where in the Book of Mormon,
across the Book of Mormon, Nephiand Alma, Nephi, for example,
was rebuking his brothersbecause they were being, you

(42:19):
know, misbehaving.
They were breaking thecommandments and they were
threatening his life.
And Nephi said that his wordswere too strong for his
brothers.
He said Nephi's words were harshbecause he loved truth and he
wanted to help his brothers turnto God.
Nephi's brothers reactedviolently to his teachings.
Nephi understood that.
He said a quote in Nephi 1, 1Nephi 16, 2 says, Nephi says,

(42:45):
the guilty taketh the truth tobe hard, for it cutteth them to
the very center.
Why can't the modern churchrelationship be bold?
The scriptures say, be bold butnot overbearing.
Why can't we be bold?
Why can't Nelson and theprophets speak up like earlier
prophets going back to the 70s?
Elizabeth Benson was the prophetwhen you and I were on a

(43:06):
mission, late 80s.
And he had these, you know,that's like in our own lifetime.
That's only 35 years ago orwhatever, right?
And the church seemed to havethis confidence to be able to
speak up and speak out and beunafraid.
And you can disagree with that,fine, but they were unafraid to
speaking out.

(43:27):
You know, the church, as I saidearlier at the very beginning,
has got this long history of,you know, supporting the
Constitution, trying to do theright thing.
It teaches that the Holy Ghostspeaketh of truth and testifies
of truth.
It talks about the role andresponsibility of prophets.
It's to tell the world what hashappened or what's happening and

(43:48):
what is going to happen if theworld disobeys the commandments
and to speak about the future,to prophesy, to prophesy.
Why can't President Nelson, asthe prophet, and to be his
fundamental self in being aprophet, to prophesy You know,
the church prophesied in theproclamation to the world that,

(44:11):
you know, if they don't followthe basic principles of family,
then great calamities, I think,would come upon the world,
right?
Maybe this is that.
Maybe the church sees that as aconnection.
I don't know.
But why is President Nelson notcoming out as the leader of the
only true church upon the faceof the earth and prophesying,

(44:32):
speaking up, having a position,prophesying, being as bold as
Nephi and earlier prophets, andsaying, look, this is what Trump
has done to side with Russia andNorth Korea, who murder its own
people, who torture its ownpeople, etc., who have invaded
Ukraine and caused immensepersonal destruction to the

(44:55):
people of Ukraine and to his ownpeople that he doesn't care
about.
They're just fodder.
You've now got the North Koreansin the war.
Putin doesn't care aboutindividuals, about people.
He cares about his politicalgoals and objectives.
And Trump cares about it aswell.
I honestly believe, Jim, thatTrump is focused.

(45:18):
The very center of this, one ofthe key centers is focused on
trying to get the Nobel PeacePrize at any cost.
Sell Ukraine down the river.
Make massive concessions toRussia.
Don't stand up against Russia,who's going to expand beyond
Ukraine, by the way.
That's why the Europeans now...
That's why NATO's breaking up.

(45:39):
That's why the Europeans now aresaying, we can't look to America
as an ally.
We now need to create a Europeandefense force, and they're doing
that right now, and they haveto, because Russia will continue
to expand its territory.
You're not going to stop it atUkraine.
America is only interested inEurope from a financial
investment perspective.
and is now looking at changingthe whole geopolitics, changing

(46:02):
NATO.
I think we've seen the beginningof the breakup of the NATO.
I think you mentioned thatearlier.
And America is not the Americathat we've relied on.
I agree there's some argumentsthat the world relied on America
too much.
I agree with that.
I think there's a lot more thatthe rest of the world could have

(46:22):
done.
to help themselves.
America had to come to therescue.
I think there's a lot ofevidence behind that.
But to retrench and to come backand just to be interested in
this financially and to notcondemn Russia for this
aggression is just unforgivable.
And for the church not to comeout and speak up is

(46:45):
unforgivable.
It's cowardly.
It's unforgivable.
It's weak.
If God has a voice in this,Surely he does.
What does he think?
And therefore, if Nelson is themouthpiece, why is Nelson not
speaking the words of the mindof God?
Or does the God not have, theLord not have an opinion on

(47:08):
this?
Is he quiet?
And if so, why?
So, yeah, I'm trying to pieceall this together and trying to
understand that.
process with God and revelationand discernment and doing the
right thing and being bold andspeaking up.
You said when you met MittRomney, you appreciated him for

(47:28):
making a very courageousdecision in condemning Trump.
And Mitt Romney can do it.
You can do it.
I can do it.
We can stand up for the rightthing.
And so I'm disappointed in thechurch.
That's an understatement.
I'm disappointed.
I'm actually ashamed that thechurch that I used to belong to

(47:50):
can't come out and do and saysomething on something like this
because we're now seeing goingto be massive repercussions on
this.
And is it also, to your point,that the church is afraid to
speak up because most of themembers or many of the members
are pro-Trumpers?
It just baffles me.

(48:11):
So our listeners are probablyexhausted by now listening to
all this.
And I know many of our listenerswill have a thought and a
position.
They'll feel strongly aboutthese things.
And we're not asking people toagree to us at all or agree to
our opinions.
But you are right to remind methat the scope of the Inside Out

(48:32):
does include talking aboutpolitics.
It is inseparable.
You are right.
And these things, as I say, theyaffect us, they affect our
lives.
And if we can't stand up, Jim,for doing the right thing and
speak up and speak against acowardly, bully, gangster, thug
like Putin, and if we're goingto say, if we cast North Korea

(48:53):
or Belarus, these dictatorships,and if we side with them, what
the hell are we doing if theleader of the free world can't
even do that?
And again, the profit of thefree world I don't think he's
been described like that, butthe prophet of the free world
can't open his mouth and saysomething.
I'm just shocked.
So anyway, you've been verypatient with me.

(49:16):
Our listeners have beenextraordinarily patient
listening to this, but it'ssomething that I feel very
strongly about.

SPEAKER_01 (49:23):
Oh, me too.
And I think, I mean, it's anexhausting time to be alive.
It's exhausting that we'rehaving to live through this.
My brother-in-law, There's a manby the name of Nate Ullman, and
he wrote a, he has a blog calledThoughts from a Tamed Cynic.
And he wrote an article calledThe Day of Infamy.

(49:45):
And he begins, he says, onAugust 14th, 1941, the United
States of America became theleader of the free world.
He talks about the creation ofthe Atlantic Charter, which was
the underlying alliance that ledto NATO's And that when World
War II hit and then when Americawas attacked in Pearl Harbor,

(50:10):
that that's the alliance thatput everything together.
And so I'm just going to quote afew things that he says.
Trump is fundamentally wrong toview alliances as a sign of
American weakness.
For 80 years, a large part ofwhat it means for the United
States to be a powerful nation—is that it can expect the

(50:32):
support of the wealthiest andfreest countries of the world.
That gives the United Statesinfluence and global reach that
literally no country in thehistory of the world has been
able to match.
He is rapidly destroying one ofthe twin pillars on which that
American power has been based.
That power is not based solelyon economic or military clout.

(50:55):
It also comes from the fact thatdespite the inevitable
machinations of nations andAmerica's compromises and
shortcomings, ultimately, theUnited States has been committed
to the defense of Westerndemocracy and has stood against
aggression and militaryadventurism.
And, you know, here we are withTrump not only not standing

(51:18):
against aggression and militaryadventurism, he's proposing
aggression.
and military adventurism.
He wants to make you guys inCanada the 51st state.
He wants to take over Greenland,and he's even said that we might
use the military to do that.
He wants to seize the PanamaCanal.
He wants to...

(51:39):
Just yesterday, he posted avideo generated by AI called
Trump Gaza.
It's the most ridiculous,obscene thing you have ever
seen.
It shows...
And the AI is bizarre because itshows at one point these women
in bikinis, but they also havebeards and they're belly

(52:01):
dancing.
It's really bizarre.
But it shows Gaza as this kindof Vegas utopia.
And Elon Musk walks down thestreet with money raining down
on his head.
There's a huge gold statue ofDonald Trump in the middle of a
town square.
You see Donald Trump in a casinogroping.

(52:23):
a showgirl, as if that'ssupposed to be a great thing,
and there's this music in thebackground, and it's Trump Gaza,
Trump Gaza.
And he proposed this idea ofcleansing Gaza.
He even used the word cleansing,which in the history of the

(52:44):
world of ethnic cleansing, Imean, how much more blunt do you
have to be to recognize thatthis is who this man is?
He wants to cleanse Gaza of allthe Gazans and send them to
other countries, kick them outof their homes, remove them from
their land, and build a casinothat has a huge gold statue of

(53:04):
Donald Trump in the middle ofit.
It's obscene.
It's obscene.
It's immoral.
It's not just politically wrong.
Going back to mybrother-in-law's essay, because,
Ian, I brought this up becauseyou talk about the prophet of
the free world, the leader ofthe free world.
And he ends his essay by saying,I hope and pray that the damage

(53:28):
that Trump has done in the lastfew weeks is not permanent.
But if it is, I fear thatFebruary 24th, 2025, and that
was the day that we voted withNorth Korea and with Russia and
with China against Ukraine.
But if it is, I fear thatFebruary 24th, 2025 will mark
the day when the United Statesof America stopped being the

(53:52):
leader of the free world.
It is a deeply shameful thing tosell out an ally that has
bravely resisted with oursupport an aggressive tyrant.
Deeply shameful.
I am furious at what Trump isdoing to Ukraine.
More than that, I am furious atwhat he is doing to the United
States.

(54:12):
And this is where we are.
We have an authoritarian leaderwho is doing things that Church
leaders have decried with theirfull voices and at full volume
for decades.
And now when we have a leaderthat's doing it, we're silent.

(54:35):
We're shutting up.
And you brought up somethingthat I have considered in the
past, but didn't really want toconsider here, but I fear it may
very well be true.
Because I've made excusesbefore.
for church leaders not speakingup on this in that, oh, they
don't want to look like anAmerican church.

(54:56):
Oh, they don't want to upsetinternational members.
But you said they don't want toupset their Trumpy supporters.
They don't want to upset TrumpyLatter-day Saints.
And there's something very realto that because I think they are
still stinging from the rebukethey got from a large portion of

(55:23):
church membership when theystood with the science in the
midst of the pandemic, when theysaid, get vaccinated, when they
said, wear a mask, when theysaid, take appropriate
precautions.
President Nelson spoke out verybluntly.
He called the vaccines a literalgodsend.
So this is a prophet of the Lordreferencing God.

(55:46):
And he's essentially saying, Godsent this vaccine.
This vaccine is the answer tothe prayers that I've asked you
to offer.
In general conference, he said,we're going to fast.
We're going to pray for an endof this pandemic.
And then the prophet says, we'vereceived that answer.
And that answer is thesevaccines.
And then all of these churchmembers say, who say, I sustain

(56:11):
the prophet, and are mad atpeople like Jim Bennett for
advocating for more inclusion inthe church in ways they don't
like.
All these people suddenly turnaround and say, oh, he's only
speaking as a man, or worse,he's a fallen prophet.
He's an apostasy.
How dare he say that we shouldtake the vaccine?

(56:34):
What they learned from that,what church leaders learned from
that experience, I think is alesson that is hurting us today.
And that lesson is, if we saythings that go against church
members' politics, they're notgoing to follow them.
And if we say things continuallythat church members don't

(56:56):
follow, we're going to lookweak, we're going to look
ineffective, and so we need tonot do that.
I fear that that's one of thelessons they took from the
pandemic is, yeah, thiscontingent of church members who
are tithe payers and who are inother ways faithful.

(57:18):
I mean, they fulfill callings.
And these aren't just churchgoers.
These are bishops.
These are stake presidents.
These are people on every levelof the church.
And they're people who, in mostways, are considered the most
faithful members of the church,but their loyalty to the church

(57:41):
is trumped by Trump.
It's trumped by their loyalty totheir political agenda, and
that's more important to them.
And I think the church leadersknow damn well that if they were
to come out against the evilthat Trump is doing.

(58:03):
Not just the bad politics thatTrump is doing.
We've had bad politics in everyadministration.
We can survive bad politics.
We can't survive pervasive andrelentless pursuit of evil,
which is what Donald Trump isdoing.
And it's what the United Statesis becoming.

(58:24):
We have forfeited our role asleader of the free world and we
are Allying ourselves with thebad guys, which makes us one of
the bad guys.
There's an old saying that if 14people are at dinner with one

(58:45):
Nazi and they don't stand upagainst him, then it's a dinner
with 14 Nazis.
If we just stay silent, if wedon't stand up against it, we
are complicit with it.
And right now the church...
and church leaders, frankly, arecomplicit with the Trump agenda.

(59:05):
And the Trump agenda is evil.
And there's really no way aroundthat.
I mean, there's no escapeclause.
There's no way that we canslough off our accountability
for it.
You know, when the church doessomething wrong, I used to say
the church needs to do this.
The church needs to do that asif the church were something

(59:26):
separate from me.
And now I recognize We need todo this.
I am the church.
I am part of the church.
As long as I am inside thechurch, then if I stay in the
church, I bear some measure ofresponsibility for anything the
church does, which pains me whenthe church does things that I

(59:47):
don't like.
Well, the reality is we are nowin the United States.
We are complicit if we do notstand up against this evil man.
this evil agenda.
And I don't want the church tobe complicit, but I fear that we
are.
And we need to not be.

(01:00:09):
What is the point of all ofthese things that we are taught
on a weekly, daily basis?
We're supposed to study thescriptures daily.
We pray daily.
And we go to church and wereceive instruction about how to
be better disciples of JesusChrist.

(01:00:31):
What is the point of all of thatif when the overwhelming
evidence is that we arefollowing somebody who is
anti-Christ, who is opposed tothe principles that we are
taught on a daily basis, thenwhat is the point of what we're

(01:00:51):
taught if we're not able to usethat?
to stand up to evil.
And so that's where I am.
That's where this, it's not eventhat this is a tangent.
This is front and center of, forme, front and center for the
moral future of the church.
If we think we can just ridethis out and not raise a peep

(01:01:16):
and keep our heads down and hopeit goes away, we are in for a
dreadful reckoning.
somewhere down the road.
It's already starting.
It's already here.
We are already seeing.
The church is in Ukraine.
The church has members inUkraine and we are now

(01:01:38):
essentially abandoning them.
We are now saying, you know, goahead, Donald Trump, align with
the axis of evil and let's stripmine Ukraine for parts and hand
it over to a dictator and allowhim to do what he will.
And we're just standing by andletting that happen, which means

(01:01:59):
we're complicit with it.
I just don't think we can stressthis enough.
I don't think that there isenough outrage, that there is
enough fury that we can expressin opposition to this.
I just think we need, if thechurch as a whole is not going

(01:02:20):
to raise its voice against thisevil.
You and I are going to do ourpart to do it.
And I'm not going to back downfrom it.
I'm going to continue to do it.
It's ended, you know, I have alot of people who talk about,
you realize you've ended anychance you ever have of holding

(01:02:41):
political office.
And I said, yes, I do.
I absolutely do.
I realize that ship has sailed.
I realize that that's not in myfuture.
But For that to be in my future,I would have to somehow be
complicit with evil.
I look at the representatives inUtah who are Latter-day Saints,

(01:03:05):
who do this kind ofhand-wringing, oh, yeah, this
probably isn't right.
I mean, I look at John Curtis,senator from Utah.
I ran against John Curtis as amember of the United Utah Party
when he first ran for Congress.
I only got 9.4% of the vote,but...
I got to know John Curtis.
I had several conversations withhim.
I consider him a good man.
And he used to be a Democrat.

(01:03:26):
And he decided he was nevergoing to win an office as a
Democrat.
So he became a Republican.
And he ran for office.
He ran for Congress and won.
And now he's run for the Senate.
He's replaced Mitt Romney in theSenate.
And a lot of people look to himas, okay, well, will you have
the same conscience Mitt Romneydid?
And the answer is no.
The answer is absolutely no.
He said, oh, jeez, I'm worriedabout these crazy things RFK Jr.

(01:03:48):
said about vaccines, and I'mworried about some of these
other nominees.
And then he went ahead and votedfor all of them.
And he hasn't issued anystatement condemning the UN
resolution vote, he's just goingalong for the ride.
And he's doing that because heknows that if he doesn't do
that, his constituents, themajority of whom are Latter-day

(01:04:11):
Saints, will vote him out ofoffice because what Trump is
doing is what a majority ofAmerican Latter-day Saints want.
And that's obscene to me.
That's absolutely obscene to me.
And as long as I can speak outagainst it, I am going to do
that.
So I very much appreciate you,Ian, participating.

(01:04:33):
And I very much appreciate youraising this as the topic.
And if listeners are frustratedby this or bored by this, we'll
probably turn off quite a fewpeople.
At this point, you have to makea decision.
You have to take sides.
Joseph Smith once said, once youenlist in the gospel of Jesus

(01:04:56):
Christ, you leave neutral groundforever.
And he was talking about thechurch, but there is a wider
principle there that I thinkapplies.
There is no neutral ground leftin this global battle of good
versus evil.

(01:05:17):
And it is painfully clear whichside Donald Trump is on.
And if you think you can juststay neutral, stay quiet, and
ride it out, you are on theside.
You are not neutral.
You are on the side of evil, andthere's no way around that.

(01:05:39):
So I don't know if that's tooharsh, but that's where I am,
and that's where I'm going tocontinue to be.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:45):
And that's okay.
And again, these are very, veryserious, important things, and I
know many of our listeners willfeel strongly about these things
either way, and that's okay.
I appreciate you raising thefact that there are church
members in Ukraine, and what isthe church saying to them right
now?
You know, what's the church,especially after the vote?

(01:06:06):
The church teaches that beforethe world was, there was a
council in heaven, and two planswere put forward to God, one by
Lucifer, who are my JesusChrist.
And two-thirds of us chose JesusChrist's plan, the plan of
salvation.
And Lucifer, with the third ofthe hosts of heaven, and that
plan, which was rejected, wascast down.

(01:06:28):
And we went with Jesus Christ.
We voted.
There was a decision.
We took a position.
We took a stand.
A few closing remarks here.
I want to share this with you.
As I was listening, I foundthis.
It's a lesson.

(01:06:48):
It's a lesson in the churchlesson books, and it's dated
August 23.
I think it's one of the gospelstudy lessons.
It's titled, Why We Should SpeakUp for Truth.
Listen to this.
We merely have to watch thedaily news or look around us to
see that society is degradingrapidly.

(01:07:11):
This is...
80 months ago.
It can become soul-numbing, andmany of us may be tempted to
just withdraw and keep quiet.
But the law's discretion,direction rather, is clear.
We are expected to speak up.
We are expected to be a warningvoice.
We are expected to defend thetruth in a world that

(01:07:33):
increasingly does not want tohear or accept the truth.
Elder Ballard said this in thelesson, The time has come when
members of the church need tospeak out and join with the many
other concerned people inopposition to the offensive,
destructive, and mean-spiritedmedia influence that is swooping

(01:07:53):
over the earth.
So that's something that ElderBallard felt strongly about,
enough for him to be quoted inthe lesson.
You don't put your apostlequotes in without the apostle
knowing about it, surely, in astandard gospel lesson, right?
Elder Ballard would have knownabout this, that he's being
quoted.
And he says, so that's ElderBallard, a member of the Quorum
of the Twelve Apostles.
At a religious study symposiumin California, Elder Uchtdorf of

(01:08:16):
the Quorum of the TwelveApostles, a group of Germany
during World War II, talkedabout a visit he and his wife
made to Auschwitz, a formerconcentration camp established
in German-occupied Poland.
By the way, I'm going toAuschwitz in April and May, by
the way, Jim.
Elder Uchtdorf says this, Iwonder how history might have
been changed had the people ofGermany spoken with one voice

(01:08:36):
against the evil that arosearound them.
Elder Uchtdorf is saying this,perhaps future generations will
ask the same of us today.
As members of the Church ofJesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints, we are blessed to knowtruth and to have the influence
of the Holy Ghost to help usrecognize the difference between
truth and error.

(01:08:58):
When we use these gifts tospeak, our influence for good
will grow and our profoundimpacts to often evil risers in
the world because good men andwomen do not find the courage to
speak against it, said ElderUchtdorf.
He goes on to say, as sometimesterrible, preventable, terrible,

(01:09:20):
preventable events happenbecause we fail to open our
mouths.
He then finishes his comment bysaying, so how do we speak up
for what's right?
That's from the church lessonmaterial right on the church
website.
August 23, titled Speaking Upthe Truth.
Why doesn't President Nelsonread this lesson?

(01:09:43):
Follow it.
So if President Nelson or anyoneis connected to President Nelson
right now, listen to thesewords.
I'm not trying to beoverconfident here or arrogant.
But if you're hearing thismessage, for goodness sake, for
the sake of goodness, followthis lesson.

(01:10:04):
Follow the advice from ElderUchtdorf and Elder Ballard and
speak up and speak out and saysomething.
Anything.
Do the right thing.
Comment on it.
Do something, for goodness sake.
And defend the right and speakup against evil.

(01:10:25):
Follow your own basicfundamental principles.
Please.
I...
hope that someone in ourlisteners will pass this on to
the president.
Now is the time to do this.
Is there ever a time to stand upand speak about something?
Ever.
And there's been many timeswhere the church hasn't, and

(01:10:45):
times when it has.
Now is the time to do something,to say something, and not, as we
heard in the lesson here, to besilent and to be quiet.
And all around us, all thesethings are happening.
Like you, Jim, I feel sostrongly about this.
If we don't live like this, ifwe don't live for integrity,

(01:11:10):
Elder Bednar talks aboutintegrity, by the way, a lot.
We're a church of integrity.
He says that.
Integrity is so important tohim.
Well, let's have the integrityand the decency to do something,
to say something, to speak up.
And don't leave it.
to members of the churchguessing.

(01:11:32):
Let's not be cowards.
Let's speak up.
We might not carry opinion withus, with people, but at least
we're speaking our truth andwe're being honest.
And if we can't be that, Jim, inlife, if we can't be like that
in life, what are we, really?
You know, when Elder Oak set meapart with the state presidency

(01:11:53):
and we had those interviews attraining, he asked us, speaking
in the calling, not just inlife, but in the calling, as
well.
How do you want to beremembered?
That was his question to us as anew state presidency.
How do you want to beremembered?
Not just as in this life, butalso as a presidency.
And so I would ask PresidentNelson, how do you want to be

(01:12:15):
remembered?
When all these things arehappening in the world and
you're there silent, not sayinganything, not speaking up,
people will remember this.
I will remember this.
Please have the courage Dosomething.
Say something.
Follow the lesson material righthere.
I'm grateful for thisconversation.
Felt so strongly about it.

(01:12:37):
And I appreciate your comments.
I have nothing else to say.
I think I'm going to go off mychest.
I want to thank our listenersfor being incredibly patient.
And we may have lost some ofthem throughout this
conversation.
I don't know.
We try to be respectful and kindand courteous.
We feel so strongly about this.
Do you have any final commentsor thoughts, Jim, at your end

(01:12:57):
before we close?
I do not.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:00):
Only to say amen and amen to what you've just

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:02):
said.
Thank you.
Well, to you, Jim, thank you somuch for being part of this
conversation.
I really am grateful for yourjust openness and transparency
and just speaking from theheart.
And I know that you've donethat.
I've done that.
I've tried to do that as well.
I'm grateful for our listeners,for their patience and
understanding.

(01:13:23):
We try to keep that balance.
The church does extraordinarilygood.
And you know when the churchstands up and speaks up on
things, I think that's great.
I really do.
And let's hope that it will doso on this occasion.
Thank you to you.
Thank you to our listeners.
And we look forward to meetingwith all the listeners sometime

(01:13:44):
next week.
And in the meantime, we wish youthe best and that you're all
safe.
And we express our love andappreciation to you all.
Thank you for listening.
And that's it for this week'sInside Out.
Thank you, everybody.
And thank you to you, Jim.
Thank you, William.