The Final Word on General Conference

Ian and Jim recap General Conference and what parts stood out and which parts could have been an email. 

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out.

(00:18):
My name is Jim Bennett and I amhere as always with the quite
snod, Ian Wilk.
Ian, how are you,

SPEAKER_00 (00:26):
sir?
I'm doing really well, Jim.
How are you?

SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
I'm fine.
So I was looking for a funny,obscure, but positive adjective
to describe you.
And ChatGPT came up with snod.
Oh, okay.
Have you ever heard

SPEAKER_00 (00:41):
snod before?
No, I've heard of snodgrass,which is a character, a
children's character in a book.
And the character lives in adump and eats landfill.
So not the same character then.
Not snodgrass.
Well,

SPEAKER_01 (00:57):
according to this, snod is an old Scots word
meaning smooth, sleek, or tidyin appearance.
Calling someone a snod fellow isactually a compliment, like
saying they're well put togetherin a charmingly old-fashioned
way.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
Well, I'll take that over snodgrass any day.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15):
Yes, yes, I was not trying to imply that you live in
a dump.
I was trying to...
But it's interesting when wetalk about things that are
charmingly old-fashioned.

SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
I think that's a pretty good segue into what
we're going to talk about today,which is we're going to recap
General Conference, which is inmany ways charmingly
old-fashioned, in some waysmaybe not so charming.
But I...
I want to give sort of a briefoverview here at the outset.

(01:48):
I attended two of the sessionsin person.
The Tabernacle Choir sang atthree of them, but we had a
family wedding on Friday, andall of my kids were in town, and
we had all kinds of otherrelatives in town, so I ducked
out of the Sunday session, whichwas not hard to do.
The conference is, I think, themost popular thing that choir

(02:13):
members enjoy doing.
And so it's, you know, everyweek when we do a broadcast,
there are people that aremissing.
You have to keep 80% attendanceto stay in the choir.
So people will come and go andthey'll have family vacations or
they'll be ill or whatever elseit is.
And they'll miss a broadcasthere or there.
And sometimes when you're in themiddle of spring break or

(02:35):
whatever, the choir can getreally quite small.
And there are a bunch of emptyrows.
They cover up the empty rows inthe back of the tabernacle with
this black fabric.
So it looks like the choir isfull, but the choir fluctuates
in size given the experience.
But the exceptions to that arethe Christmas concerts that
everybody wants to do andgeneral conference that

(02:57):
everybody wants to do.
And we sing in three sessionsand they've started adding
international participants togeneral conference.
So that's an additional maybe adozen people.
And so the seats are really,really full.
And at one point, there was oneconference where they actually

(03:17):
rotated me out of a Saturdaymorning session.
And they just said, your numbercame up randomly and we need
your seat for Saturday morning.
So when I went to them and said,would anybody, could you fill my
seat if I were to leave Sundayafternoon, and the choir guy

(03:38):
just, his face lit up and goes,oh, really?
Yeah, that'd be great.
So they were happy to see me go,and I did not attend live the
Sunday afternoon session, but itdidn't matter because you didn't
see me in the Saturday morningor the Sunday morning sessions
because the camera never gets upto the back row.

SPEAKER_00 (03:57):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (03:58):
And I had somebody say to me, hey, do you think
that the choir has been told notto highlight you because you're
a controversial figure.
And I said, well, if that's thecase, then I've been a
controversial figure my entiretime in the choir because the,
the camera never, ever gets upto the back row.
So anyway, for all of that, I,so I, I watched, I have not

(04:21):
watched all the sessions.
I've not watched the Saturdayevening session, but I've
watched the Saturday afternoonsession.
And I watched the Sundayafternoon session after the
fact, and I've read theconference talks and I, My
overall impression, and we'llget into specific talks, I
think, and I'm assuming you'vegot some specific talks, and I'm

(04:42):
also assuming you haven'twatched any of conference.

SPEAKER_00 (04:45):
No, I haven't watched conference, but I have
reviewed the summaries and I'vedrilled down into two or three
talks and I've made somespecific comments and thoughts
and notes on some of the talks.
But yeah, I've got a reasonableunderstanding overview of a
summary of the talks.

SPEAKER_01 (05:05):
Okay.
Well, so from my perspective, asI sit in General Conference, one
of the things that has happened,I think, post-COVID is that
church members, maybe not allchurch members, but me and a lot
of people I know, have suddenlyrealized that COVID gave us an

(05:31):
opportunity to sort of see howmuch of the church we really
missed and how much of thechurch was kind of unnecessary,
how much of the church was justkind of busy work and didn't
matter.
And the answer to that really isquite a lot of it.
And as you go back toconference, conference, the idea

(05:54):
of sitting for 10 hours tolisten to essays and These are
not orations.
In the early days of the church,pre-teleprompter,
pre-technology, Brigham Youngwould stand up and he would
orate.
And that's kind of what got himinto trouble on some of his more

(06:15):
controversial statements becausehe would give these fiery
sermons and sometimes he wouldgo overboard because he was
exaggerating for effect.
But that whole style of orationhas kind of been lost and
pasteurized to some degree andsterilized and brought down to

(06:39):
the point where, as my uncleused to say, what they're doing
is they are reading essays thatare written to be read.
And it's a different medium fromwhat conference originally was
or was intended to be.
And now, as I sit throughconference, one of the thoughts

(07:01):
that keeps coming up, it's ameme, it's a cliche at this
point, but it's one of thesethings where you think, couldn't
this just have been an email?
Can't you get just as much outof conference from reading it,
reading it on your own time andreading it at your own pace,

(07:21):
than sitting there and havingsomebody read it to you?
And the message is, becausethere are very few times when I
can remember that being inconference, listening to a
speaker, has given me sort ofmore insight and more uplift as

(07:43):
to what the speaker is sayingthan reading the talk after the
fact.
There are some very notableexceptions.
I keep thinking back to, forinstance, Bruce R.
McConkie's final sermon.
where he talked about, in thecoming days, I will bathe, I
will stand before my Lord and Iwill bathe his feet with my

(08:03):
tears, but I will not know anymore then than I know now that
he is God's almighty son.
And he broke down in tears whilehe said that, which was so out
of character for him, but alsojust so endearing and so
powerful that that's a momentwhere the actual delivery of the

(08:26):
talk enhanced the presentation.
And there were very, very few, Ican think of one, and we'll get
into it when we get intospecific talks, but I can think
of one where the actualpresentation, I think, was
necessary that it wasn't just anemail, not something that I

(08:47):
could have read later.
So I also think back, are you aShakespeare fan?
A little bit, yeah.
Do you know the opening to HenryV, the prologue?
I

SPEAKER_00 (09:01):
guess I'm not as big a fan as I thought I was.
Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 (09:04):
Well, when I was a freshman at USC, we had to all
memorize this.
It's essentially a narrator thatcomes out and he says, Oh, for a
muse of fire that would ascendthe brightest heaven of
invention, a kingdom for astage, princes to act, and
monarchs to behold the swellingscene.
How was that?

(09:24):
Was that good?

SPEAKER_00 (09:25):
Very good.
And pretty good on the accentthere, kind of, or

SPEAKER_01 (09:28):
almost.
That's a standard stage accent.
That's not a British accent perse.
But we'll get it.
That doesn't matter.
But the point is that wholemonologue is all about how,
wouldn't it be nice if I couldshow all this stuff to you
rather than just talk about it?
And later in the monologue, hesays, when I speak of horses,

(09:51):
imagine that you see them.
And the whole thing is a lamentthat, gosh, we are confined to
this wooden O to just have wordsto tell you about all these
things that we can't show you.
And that was true in the 16th,17th century when Shakespeare

(10:13):
was writing.
But it's not true now.
Now we have all kinds ofdifferent media, all kinds of
different technology, all kindsof different ways of
communicating.
And conference is still rootedin this 19th century.
I think it was probably betterin the 19th century because you

(10:36):
can still go and see greatpreachers who are spellbinding
to watch.
I mean, you go back and watchBilly Graham revivals.
Billy Graham knew how to knewthe medium that he was
communicating in, and he knewhow to hold an audience, and he
knew how to keep them engagedwith what he was saying, and the

(10:56):
presentation was designed forthat.
And so as I sit in conference, Isit there and I go, we have to
recognize that this format justdoesn't work anymore.
I'm not sure if it ever worked,but there was a time when I
think we tolerated it morebecause The technology and

(11:19):
communication maybe wasn't up towhere it is now.
But, you know, if you compareconference, for instance, to
music in the spoken word, whichis done every Sunday, a
broadcast by the TabernacleChoir.
First of all, music in thespoken word is a half hour long.
It's not two hours long.

(11:39):
Second of all, there are allkinds of video images overlaid
over the music.
So you're not just staring at astatic shot.
There's more things to watch.
It enhances the entirepresentation.
And music also, you're seeingthe choir.
The camera is panning throughthe choir.
Not, of course, showing JimBennett, but showing everybody
else.

(12:00):
And it's a visual presentation.
And then when there's a spokenword, when Derek Porter, the new
guy who does the spoken word,speaks, there's music behind him
to enhance the spirit of it.
There are other video images.
It is a video presentationmaking use of the medium for

(12:23):
which it is designed.
And conference is not that.
So this is an overall, I haven'tgotten into any of the messages.
I haven't gotten to any of thegood things, the bad things.
There were wonderful messages.
There were, I think, very few.
I mean, one of the things thatthere weren't, there wasn't a

(12:45):
single LGBTQ bashing talk, whichis always lovely.
There was one talk thatattracted a great deal of
attention, negative attention,and that was Elder Anderson's
talk about abortion.
I think the negativitysurrounding that talk is

(13:07):
somewhat overblown because Ithink it's actually a step
forward from Elder Anderson'sprevious talk about abortion.
And we'll get into that when weget into the details.
But just overall, I just think,I don't believe it's faithless
to say that we should be usingthe medium that God has

(13:30):
provided, using the tools Godhas given us, to communicate, to
make conference a more engagingexperience.
Because anybody that tells youthat they're not bored sitting,
watching a static image of a guyreading off a teleprompter for
10 hours, anybody who tells youthey're never bored in doing

(13:54):
that is not telling you thetruth.
They just aren't.
Am I wrong on that?
Is that a faithless thing tosay?
No,

SPEAKER_00 (14:02):
it is not.
I'm listening to you, and I findit fascinating and interesting
to see, understand conferenceand how it's evolved or not
evolved over the years.
I first started attendingconference back in 82.
You've been in the church yourentire life.
And for as long as I canremember, there's been a certain

(14:24):
pattern, certain structure overthe years, traditionally, if you
like, of how the churchorganizes, structures these
events.
two major events that happenevery year, I think they should
whittle it down to one.
I think two years seems a heckof a lot and necessary.

(14:46):
To your point, you cancommunicate across different
mediums anytime you want.
You could write something,people can read it.
I think you raise some reallyfascinating points in terms of
the structure, the tradition,the style.
I The question I would ask is,you know, for ourselves and our

(15:06):
listeners, how many conferencetalks do you really remember
over the last 10, 20 years?
And I bet you it's probably, youcan count them on one hand.
I think the style is importantas well.
I find conference, I did findconference for many years for a
long time, quite stale, lackedinnovation and how refreshing it

(15:28):
was, Jim, when people likePresident Hinckley, and maybe a
few others, I can't rememberthem.
President Hinckley particularlywould speak at times seen to go
off cue and would share a jokeor make a comment or a flipping
comment.
And those are the times youremember.

(15:48):
I remember those times becausethey went off cue.
They were speaking naturally,normally.
And for me, and I think I'm likemost people, where when you go,
I actually want you to go offcue.
I want you just to just, youknow, don't read it to me.
in monotone sometimes, even ifyou've got a up and down tone
like President Monson and you'restill reading off the cue, you

(16:08):
know, the teleprompter.
I don't want that.
I'm okay with some of that, butjust come off cue.
Just speak to us like a normalhuman being.
A natural conversation.
And if you don't get it perfect,I'm all right with that.
I actually find more meaning andmore depth and more spirituality

(16:30):
in in just a natural, at leastcommunicating naturally, like
we're doing right now on thepodcast with all of its
qualities and faults, et cetera.
I've never said for one secondI'm a professional podcaster and
I don't want to read off a cueor a teleprompter and get every
word perfect.

(16:50):
I'm not bothered about that.
I'm more interested in thenatural and raw reaction of the
points we discuss on thepodcast.
would love to see more of thatat conference.
I'd love to see more humor.
I'd love to see people go offand go on a bit of a tangent and
just be natural and normal.
And I would get a lot from that.

(17:11):
And if you've made a mistake ona word, I'm okay with that.
You know, none of us areperfect.
And you can address that in thewritten material.
So, you know, the structure isquite stale for me.
I think twice a year seemsunnecessary.
The reading it verbatim, wordfor word, you know, you might as
well just You can listen to itonline on a podcast.

(17:32):
Let's bring some natural andbring some humor into it as
well.
Let's have a little bit of fun.
If you can't laugh on a Sundayand I get the strictness on a
Sunday, the Saturday, just bringsome more humor in on the
Saturday if you're so seriousabout the Sunday.
And so the structure, style, thecontent, the strictness, the

(17:56):
talks are written for theseindividuals.
And every word's checked.
There's a correlating committeeinvolved and making sure that
all the talks are prepared.
And it just seems veryartificial, stale, and lacks

(18:16):
just that natural human side ofit.
The other observation I want tomake as well, and as you know,
Our listeners will know thatbefore conference, I made
reference to the significanceand the importance of this
particular conference.
I think I probably say that forevery conference, actually, but
certainly this one, inconsideration of the significant

(18:39):
events that are happening in theworld.
I've said that the church claimsto be the only true church upon
the face of the earth.
The mouthpiece of the Lordrepresents not just the members
of the church, but the entirepopulation of the world.
That's its claim.
as knows and speaks the will andmind of the Lord.
And I look to the church, evennow, for hope and some

(19:05):
inspiration in regards to thechurch's influence, if it has
any, on the world in America,and what is the role of the
church in the affairs of theUnited States, and particularly
in the affairs of the world,being the only true church
representing the entire world,according to the teachings of

(19:26):
the church.
And especially right now withwhat's happening with the
geopolitics, the economics, thetariffs, its relationship with
the constitution, which issupposed to be inspired, its
knowledge and understanding andposition on certain politics,

(19:47):
government politics.
I'm okay about the churchgetting involved in politics.
I'm all right with that.
When the church says it'sapolitical, I don't think you
can live in a world where...
You live in a bubble, I think,if you see the world as not
influencing or affecting yourlife.
Everything that happens outthere has some impact or effect.
Have you ever watched Lord ofthe Rings movies?

(20:09):
Oh, sure.
Yeah.
These are very popular movies.
And I like you.
I love those movies.
I'm sure you do as well.
And there's that scene...
where you've got the twohobbits.
Is it Pippin and the other guy?
Marion Pippin.
Marion Pippin.
And they're in the FangornForest.
And do you remember that scene?
And the trees are there, youknow, whispering in the

(20:30):
background.
And one of the trees, there's atree, Treebeard, I think his
name is.
He's carrying the two hobbits.

SPEAKER_01 (20:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (20:36):
An ent.
They're ents.
They're very old, right?
And so there's a conversationensues about what's happening in
the world.
with the tree and the tree thethe um tree beard i can't
remember the exact word seems tosay well if it's not happening
here or if it's happening in theworld there's nothing we can or

(20:57):
what can we do about it and thenpippin or the other hobbit says
well you know let's go back tothe shire and let's let you know
let others deal with thesethings that are happening in the
world you know what can we doabout it and the other hobby
says uh you know pippin therewon't be a shire They won't be a
shire.
So what happens in the worldaffects everyone, whether they

(21:18):
like it or not, or know it ornot.
And we're facing an absoluteunprecedented period in
geopolitics, where you've gotthree major powers, China,
Russia, and the United Statesnow flexing its muscles.
Rightly or wrongly, on differentthings, perhaps you could argue,

(21:38):
you know, we've got politics,we've got economics, we've got
job, we've got finance.
We've got security.
The world is repositioningitself in the world of Trump
here, which is, we won't getinto that right now, but it's
extraordinary.

(21:58):
And so what does the church haveto say on this?
What's the church's position onthis?
I can understand the safety andsecurity in focusing on the
fundamental principles of thegospel.
And I get it.
And you should spend a lot oftime on that, like Jesus Christ
and love and service andforgiveness and helping each

(22:19):
other through tribulations.
The prophet talked about thesecond coming of Christ.
Presumably, that's someconnection with what's going on
in the world.
That's probably the closestwe're going to get in terms of
what the prophet thinks aboutwhat's happening and where we're
at on that timeline.
But I would love the church tobe bold and be brave and to

(22:40):
stand up and to say something onwhat's going on in the world.
And I'm not expecting everyone,and they shouldn't expect
everyone to agree with them.
That's okay.
But what is the position morallyon these things?
As the moral compass for theworld, as the church claims to
be, and having the fullness ofthe gospel and access to far

(23:01):
more knowledge than anyone elsehas in terms of spirituality and
the future, the role of theprophet, etc.
What is the role of the church,and why did it seem to be afraid
to stand up and speak something?
The other thing I want to saybefore I hand some time back to
you, to what you were sayingearlier, in terms of style,

(23:22):
cultural aspects of the church,the communication styles, et
cetera, of the church, is usereference.
As you go back further in timein the church, we know that the
speakers at conferencehistorically will have been much
more flair, much more boldness.
Again, rightly or wrongly interms of what they say, you can

(23:43):
agree with them, not agree withthem, but seemingly less afraid
to speak up on certain things.
You know, Brigham Young, Iremember on the Truman Madsen
tapes, he said that when JosephSmith, when the spirit took hold
of Joseph Smith, Joseph Smithwould roar like a lion, I think
it was.
Joseph's eloquence when thespirit was...

(24:07):
in him was an incredible orator.
Brigham Young was a greatorator.
We can argue about that, butthere's certain leaders in the
church who've been greatorators, great speakers.
You've talked about BillyGraham.
There are certain individualsout there, politics,
inspirational speakers.

(24:29):
Paul H.
Dunn, by the way, was afantastic speaker.
Some of the content wasquestionable, but What a great
speaker.
When he spoke and I've got histapes, I was enthralled.
It just connected me with hisstories.
And when he shared his stories,including the ones that were

(24:49):
false or partly false, I feltthe Spirit of God confirming
they were true.
That's another conversation.
But I think there's anopportunity for the church to be
a little bit more human, a bitmore natural.
And the thing I was going to sayis that if Jesus Christ was here
right now, notwithstanding themediums and the platforms and
being able to communicate or goto different meetings, et

(25:11):
cetera.
And yes, for people to actuallyread what you've said and the
knowledge that we have that whenwe say something, like on this
podcast, or we write somethingdown, people will pour over it
and may or may not find faultwith that.
But I think if Christ was here,He wouldn't be afraid of that.

(25:34):
I don't even know if Christ'swords would be perfect.
He would speak and be veryeloquent and an incredible
communicator and might even makesome errors or maybe not be as
eloquent as others.
I don't know how Christ spoke,but I think he would want us to

(25:55):
be natural and not to be rigidor as structured or as
prescriptive or as stale.
When you read the scriptures ofthe New Testament, he met people
in the fields, on the hills, intheir homes, in the streets,
where the people were.
And those will have been naturalconversations.
And when he spoke with thecrowd, they'll have been

(26:16):
natural.
He spoke using examples andillustrations and visions.
His imagination wasextraordinary.
And I think that's what capturespeople.
And I think Christ would havebeen a very natural, somewhat
eloquent orator and would haveengaged people on a very

(26:39):
personal level.
I don't think the church has gotthat.
I think it's lost that.
I think that tradition now isoutdated.
I think you should have it oncea year, like I said.
but bring back some human,natural style to the conference.
So they're my initialobservations.

(27:00):
And just one other thing, and Isaid that last comment was the
last one, but I do see a lot ofmany of the talks being very
positive, actually, in theconference.
Very safe, very general, youknow, the principles there.
They are positive conversations.
but the church lacks that.

(27:21):
It just lacks courage to go outand really think and speak and
address the issues like itshould.
So just a regular old-fashionedconference and nothing that
special that I can see in it.
But it's a safe one for thechurch.
Back to you.

SPEAKER_01 (27:42):
Well, no, I think that's an accurate description.
I think...
The phrase that I kept coming upwith is that this felt like a
holding pattern conference.
That everybody is...
When President Nelson came inand had all these things that he
wanted to do and all thesechanges he wanted to make, and

(28:04):
we kept having every conference,there would be predictions.
Ooh, what's going to happen thistime?
And ooh, we got two-hour church.
And ooh, there go the BoyScouts.
And there goes home teaching.
And We had all these differentseismic changes, essentially, in
the church.
And Nelson, I think, had beensort of sitting on those for a

(28:27):
very long time.
Certainly, he'd been sitting onthe idea of getting rid of the
nickname Mormon since 1990 whenhe gave a talk about that.
And he was corrected ratherembarrassingly by President
Hinckley in the subsequentconference.
But President Nelson had all ofthese reforms, and he kept

(28:47):
saying, take your vitamins, andyou ain't seen nothing yet.
The restoration is justbeginning, the ongoing
restoration, et cetera, etcetera, et cetera.
That's all gone now, or that'sall done now.
We don't seem to have– I haven'tseen any big predictions, and if

(29:08):
there were any predictions, noneof them came true because– There
really wasn't anything in thisconference that changed much of
anything.
So the one thing that peoplepredict is essentially how many
temples will be announced.
That's the big exciting thing.
And from my perspective, we'veannounced so many temples and we

(29:33):
haven't built anywhere near any.
as many temples as we'veannounced, and you have to
wonder how many of these templesare really going to be built.
You know, I felt that sort ofelectric jolt when they
announced the Scotland EdinburghTemple that I, you know, I'm
seeing absolutely no movement toactually make that a reality.

(29:57):
So it's just an announcement,it's just a name on a list.
So I don't necessarily find thetemple announcements Wildly
exciting.
So this conference, it reallywas, it felt like we're just
kind of in a holding patternbecause President Nelson is 100
years old.
He is not immortal.

(30:18):
And everybody seems to recognizethat we're not going to have him
with us for a whole lot longer.
Although, again, who knows?
You know, he spoke Sundayafternoon.
It was a prerecorded speech,which is now something that
we're getting used to.
I think President Eyring's talkwas also prerecorded.

(30:40):
President Oaks is the onlymember of the first presidency
that is delivering his talks inperson and standing at the
pulpit.
Both President Eyring andPresident Nelson were seated
when they spoke.
But President Oaks is 94?
I mean, this is not a young man.

(31:01):
Who's to say?
that President Nelson won'toutlive President Oaks.
I mean, we are in thisessentially holding pattern, is
we don't really know what thenext big seismic shift in the
church is going to be.
And so I got the sense from alot of these talks that nobody

(31:23):
really wants to push theenvelope.
Nobody really wants to sticktheir neck out and do anything
but retreat to sort of safesubjects, safe ideas.
And there is a positive to that,which means that we're not
hearing the explosivelycontroversial talks that we hear

(31:45):
occasionally at conference,often from President Oaks,
frankly, about LGBTQ issues.
But there was only one talk,essentially, that really
referenced anythingcontroversial, and that was
Elder Anderson's talk onabortion.
which people, there was anexample at the end of it that

(32:07):
people are still talking aboutit that was really quite strange
in that he talked about a man inthe church who'd had an affair
and fathered a child with hismistress and the child, the
mistress wanted to get anabortion and the man's wife

(32:28):
wanted went to the mistress andsaid, please don't get an
abortion.
I will raise this child as myown, which is exactly what
happened.
And that story left me and a lotof other people just sort of
scratching their heads saying,so the moral of the story is
that we're supposed to raise thechildren of our husbands when

(32:54):
they stray?
Really?
I mean, it just seemed really anawkward, difficult story.
And it was also, I thought, areMormon women or Latter-day Saint
women, again, I need to sustainthe prophet.

(33:14):
I slip and say Mormon more oftenthan I should.
But are Latter-day Saint womenreally, are we really seeing a
surge in abortions amongLatter-day Saint women?
Is this a message that isparticularly necessary at this
time?
Now, the reason why I say Ithink this is a better talk than

(33:40):
the one he gave previously, Ithink it was about two years ago
that he gave a talk on abortion.
Elder Anderson seems to be veryconcerned about abortion.
And he gave that talk two yearsago, and that was very much a
fire and brimstone and...
essentially borderline politicaltalk.
It was essentially vote forRepublicans because Republicans

(34:02):
are pro-life and the church'sexceptions on abortion are
minuscule and don't reallymatter.
And the most important thing weneed to do is make abortion
illegal, essentially.
And this talk, he fleshed outthe church's whole position on
abortion and went through theexceptions as to which abortions

(34:28):
can be acceptable.
I mean, he pointed out that itdoesn't mean that you should
have an abortion if you are thevictim of rape or incest, but
you won't face church disciplineif you do have an abortion in
those cases.
But he went through all of thoseexceptions, and the thing that
strikes me every time I hearthose exceptions is, is that

(34:52):
those who would use ElderAnderson's talk as a political
weapon really don't have a legto stand on because all of the
Republican, and again, you're inCanada, so I'm American-centric
and that may be a problem, but Ihear American political

(35:15):
overtones in a lot of theseconference messages.
And Americans look at that andRepublicans particularly look at
that and say, oh, gee, well,this is great.
This is an endorsement ofRepublican politics.
And it really isn't becauseRepublican positions on abortion

(35:36):
do not allow for the sameexceptions that the church
allows for.
The most notable being theexception for the health of the
mother.
Most of the abortionrestrictions of the United
States have exceptions for thelife of the mother.
But what that has done is scaredmedical professionals away from

(36:00):
providing abortions until womenare at death's door.
It's not enough that this isjeopardizing your health.
You need to be at risk of dyingbefore we are legally allowed to
intervene.
And that is not the church'sposition, and thankfully not the
church's position.
And Elder Anderson made thatvery clear.

(36:22):
And the other thing, and we'vehad a big, long episode on
abortion, so I'm reiteratingsome of what we talked about
there.
But what people don't seem torealize is that abortion
restrictions do not necessarilyreduce abortion and, in fact—
There's a great deal ofempirical evidence that shows

(36:42):
they increase abortions.
The one example that's the mostcompelling, I think, is what's
called the Mexico City policy.
It's the global gag rule.
Every Republican who comes intothe White House institutes this
ever since Ronald Reagan.
Every Democrat has reversed it.
And what it is, is anyorganization overseas that

(37:04):
receives federal funding is notallowed to even mention
abortions.
as an option.
It's not even that they can'tprovide abortions, which they
can't.
They're not even allowed tomention it.
And so it's called the globalgag rule.
And there have been long-termstudies on this because we've
seen what happens.

(37:25):
We have over 40 years of data asto what happens when this is
instituted.
And what happens is the abortionrate in every place where this
is instituted goes up by 40%.
It's a massive spike.
And that's because when you cutoff any access to this, you also

(37:46):
cut off other services thatprevent abortion, like birth
control, like education.
And as a result, you don'tnecessarily reduce unwanted
pregnancies.
In fact, unwanted pregnancies goup.
And therefore, abortions end upgoing up.
And what's happened since Roeversus Wade was overturned in

(38:08):
the United States is that yousee all these abortion bans all
throughout the United States,but they're selective abortion
bans.
And so you see the abortionrates in individual states where
the bans are in place go down.
But the overall nationalabortion rate has gone up by

(38:28):
11%.
since Roe versus Wade wasoverturned, because all that
does is drive people away fromthe states where they can't get
abortions to states where theycan get abortions.
And those states have seen hugespikes in the abortion rate.
And the abortion rate has beenplummeting ever since Roe versus
Wade was passed.

(38:49):
That's the other thing thatpeople don't realize is that
abortions have been decreasingfor decades as people
Contraception becomes moreavailable as people are better
educated.
Abortion, everybody recognizesthat abortion is a tragedy.
Every time an abortion happens,there is some tragedy that's

(39:09):
taken place.
There's a health tragedy.
There's a social tragedy.
There's something awful that hashappened that has necessitated
an abortion.
So the way you prevent abortionis not to make it illegal.
It is to make it unnecessary.
And I don't think that was themessage of Elder Anderson's

(39:30):
previous abortion talk.
But I think you can garner thatmessage from this current one.
So I saw that as a positive.
Right.
So I focused on that one talk.
That's the only talk that Ithink was in any way remotely
controversial.
And I mentioned at the outsetthat there was one talk where

(39:52):
the actual presentation wasmattered.
You got something more fromactually watching the talk, from
actually being there with thetalk, than you did from hearing
the talk.
And that was, I'm looking up hername.
It was a woman.
There it is.
She was the first counselor inthe Young Women's General
Presidency.
Her name was Tamara W.

(40:14):
Runia.
I hope I'm pronouncing thatcorrectly.
But she stood at the pulpit.
One of the things that I wasstruck by was she was very
animated in her delivery and sheused her hands quite a bit.
I use my hands when I talk.
Anybody that sees me on video,they should be grateful this is

(40:35):
an audio podcast because I talkwith my hands and it gets a
little too, I gesture a littletoo much.
But she had very specific chosengestures that highlighted what
she was saying.
And at one point she raised herleft hand And she said, this
hand represents your worth inthe eyes of God.

(40:57):
And then she raised her righthand.
And this represents yourrighteousness or your
faithfulness in keeping God'scommandments.
And he says, and some of you maybe here.
And she gestures with her righthand near the top.
of the left hand.
Some of you may be all the waydown here.
And she gestures near the bottomof where her left hand is.
And she says, but no matterwhere this hand goes, notice

(41:20):
that the left hand never moves.
Your worth of the eyes of Godnever goes down, is never less.
And I think she even said, andthis is one of the messages in
the podcast we've said the lastfew weeks, I think she even used
the phrase, you are enough.
It was very much a positiveaffirming, you are always worthy

(41:43):
of God's love.
Your worth in the eyes of Godnever diminishes.
And that, I think, was such awelcome message and so well
delivered that it was far andaway the highlight of the
conference for me.
I mean, going through the restof the talks, I'm just...

(42:04):
I've got a list of them here andI've read them and I've seen
them.
Elder Uchtdorf was wonderful.
He gave again, he even talkedabout the fact that leaders can
make mistakes again, which issomething that he, I think, was
controversial when he said itthe first time.
But the divide that I saw in thelast conference between what I
called the universalists and theexclusivists was sort of on

(42:28):
display here again with ElderUchtdorf representing more of a
universalist camp.
Elder Kieran, again, gave amagnificent talk.
He talked about unconditionallove, God's unconditional love,
which, you know, there was atone point a time when President
Nelson referred to God's love asconditional.

(42:51):
And I think that that is adebate among the highest leaders
in the church.
A few other things that wereinteresting.
Elder Bednar gave a talk wherehe just sort of went through all
of the truth claims of theRestoration and reiterated that

(43:14):
we are not backing away fromthem.
It was interesting because hetalked about the First Vision,
but he began his talk about theFirst Vision by talking about
how Joseph went into the woodsto pray to get his sins
forgiven.
which is something that comesfrom Joseph Smith's 1832
earliest handwritten account.
And it's not something that's inthe canonized 1838 account.

(43:38):
So that was kind of, I think, aninteresting, it was very subtle.
I mean, he just mentioned it.
He did not mention the differingaccounts or any differences in
the accounts, but I think wassort of an attempt to just
quietly reconcile them.
But he went through the Visitorof Moroni and the Book of
Mormon, the historicity of theBook of Mormon.

(43:59):
I listened to Elder Bednar and Ithought, okay, there are certain
truth claims in the church thatto some degree are irreducible,
that the church couldn't getaway from even if they tried.
I mean, I see a lot of peoplethinking, okay, well, let's

(44:20):
figure out some way to reconcilethe Book of Mormon as some kind
of inspired fiction.
And Elder Bednar seemed to beplacing a marker saying, you
can't do that.
Because if the Book of Mormon isinspired fiction, then Moroni
didn't exist, and the platesdidn't exist, and Joseph Smith

(44:40):
made it all up, and Joseph Smithwas lying when he presented that
to the world.
And I tend to agree with ElderBednar there in that I don't see
how the church could survive,saying, by the way, Joseph Smith
did lie about all this.

(45:01):
None of this is reallyhistorical, but this is still
God's church.
Joseph Smith was still God'sprophet.
And there's value in the Book ofMormon, even though it's
fiction.
There seem to be some people inthe church that can make that
leap.
I'm not one of them.
But I just thought it was veryinteresting that Elder Bednar

(45:22):
just sort of laid the groundworkfor that.
Other talks that stood out,again, not a lot stood out.
Elder Cook gave a talk aboutWilliam and Martin, Willie and
Martin handcart companies, and Icall them William, and sort of

(45:42):
tied into the pioneer ancestryagain.
We haven't heard a lot aboutthat in recent conferences.
There was just sort of thisreasserting of just kind of
foundational doctrines andpolicies in a way that was just,
we're still here.

(46:03):
We're in a holding pattern, butwe're still here.
For some reason, the parable ofthe virgins with the oil in
their lamps was mentioned threetimes.
I don't know why that'ssignificant.
Elder Oaks' talk, PresidentOaks' talk was interesting in
that he called out some veryspecific situations that seemed

(46:25):
odd to me, because most of thetalks were really quite generic,
as was President Oaks' talk,until he listed all these
specific problems, like men thatget married before they get the
Aaronic priesthood.
Or, I mean, I could go throughthe list, but I thought, really,
are these huge, sweepingproblems in the church right

(46:46):
now?
Why is it that you'rehighlighting these specific
cases?
So that seemed weird to me.
The phrase covenant path, whichwas just ad nauseum in previous
conferences, was said in thisconference, but it was said...
It didn't seem intrusive.

(47:07):
It didn't seem...
It was said in ways where Ithought, okay, this is the
appropriate level of usage forthis phrase.
And...
You know, a lot of the otherbuzzwords that we've heard in
conference, I didn't hear asingle mention of home-centered,
church-supported, which was abuzz phrase for a while.

(47:31):
President Nelson was quoted inconference, but I saw a
statistical report that showedthat he was quoted about half as
often as he's been quoted inprevious conferences.
It's become sort of de rigueurfor apostles and 70s to quote
our beloved prophet, and referto him as our beloved prophet

(47:53):
with these big flowery quotesthat talk about how brilliant he
is.
And that was downplayed thisconference.
So again, all of this just sortof, it was fine.
I garnered a lot of stuff fromSister Runia's talk.
I got a great deal of spiritualuplift.

(48:14):
But overall, there is really nota whole lot about this
conference that stands out tome?
Was there a talk or was thereany moment that stood out for
you?
A

SPEAKER_00 (48:28):
couple.
There's a few.
You've addressed some of them,including Elder Anderson's talk,
really well.
I'm glad you spent some time onthat.
And you kind of drilled downonto, well, kind of referenced
some of the other talks.
Similar to almost every otherconference, the church played it

(48:49):
really safe.
I mean, the main themes are, youknow, with the prophet talking
about Lord Jesus Christ willcome again, you know, the
parable of the virgins, somerelationship with that, I think,
in terms of, you know, maybeperhaps where we are right now
that we can expect Christ tocome at some point.
I think that's the closest I gotfrom looking at the conference

(49:11):
talks to reference to, you know,what's happening right now and
we can expect Christ to come andand save us.
Other major themes were welcometo the Church of Joy, following
Christ, seeking spiritualanswers to difficult questions.

(49:33):
And again, if you look at theoverall topics, going through
them quite quickly here, Youknow, Elder Horne talked about a
little child.
There's a little child that'squite safe.
There were three femalespeakers, if I just count them
correctly, three speakers.
Camille Johnson spoke aboutspiritually whole in him, which,

(49:55):
again, is pretty safe.
Elder Rasband talks about rightbefore I rise.
I want to come back to that in asecond.
There's one talk I thought wasinteresting.
Quentin Cook talked about Christbeing the ultimate rescue.
There's talks here about thelove of my Savior, or my love
for my Savior is my why, drawnear to me, cherishing life,

(50:17):
divine authority, return to me,faith, personal interpretation
with the Savior.
All wonderful, but very safe andsecure topics.
So, same old messages, not thatthey're not important.
They are important.
But the church, again, seems tobe unwilling and probably a

(50:39):
little bit fearful and lacks anycourage in terms of going out
and being bold and brave oncertain things.
I thought there was someinteresting comments made in
some of the talks, Jim.
Elder Ronald Rasband of theCorner of the Twelve Apostles
talked about a front row seat tothe hasting of his work.

(51:00):
And I remember when Elder Oaksset us apart and gave us some
training, he did spend a bit oftime talking about hasting the
work.
Elder Oaks said to us as a statepresident, say, look, you know
what to do and how to do it.
The fundamental principles andpractices and policies and
programs are alreadyestablished.
The focus now of our statepresidency and the stake is to

(51:21):
hasten the work.
You've got the foundations.
Now move forward faster.
Baptize more.
Get more to the temple.
And it's interesting that thechurch, you know, 10 years on
from when I was released fromthat state presidency, or so
that there's some reference tothat, which is good.
So the church is still trying tomove forward.

(51:43):
He talks about hastening thework through unprecedented
temple building.
missionary work, and churcheducation.
He says, I recognize that in themidst of the good news of the
gospel, there are those whostruggle, who have faith
challenges, doubts, andquestions that seem to have no
answers.
He said, brothers and sisters,Jesus Christ is the answer.
Start with him.
Look for his hand in your life.

(52:04):
Listen to him.
So again, a very safe comment.
But what was interesting, and Iwant to highlight this, is he's
caught there, unprecedentedtemple building.
And we've just heard another 15temples announced.
When they'll get built, whoknows?
But that, as we've saidrepeatedly on earlier podcasts,
is something that the church cancontrol.

(52:26):
It can announce these templesand anyone listening to that can
see that the church is growing,progressing.
And we talked earlier on podcastabout what can the church
control and what can it measureand what can it report growth
on.
Well, if it's not getting asmany baptisms, many convert

(52:49):
baptisms, if it's not growing inmost parts of the world, and we
had a former mission president,Daryl Watson, attend a podcast
where there's a wonderfulconversation, a wonderful
individual, talked about, Ithink he was the mission

(53:10):
president of Was it Denmark orthe Netherlands or was it
Belgium?

SPEAKER_01 (53:14):
Yeah, Belgium.

SPEAKER_00 (53:15):
Belgium was, yeah.
And so he was saying that as newimmigrants come into Europe,
including in Belgium andBrussels, et cetera, those
individuals are joining thechurch.
So he's seeing growth in thoseareas in Europe.
And I believe him.
He's somebody I know reallywell, somebody I trust, and I
don't doubt him for a second.
So there are certain elements ofgrowth.

(53:37):
But where and how can the churchshow growth?
Well, it can show growth withtemple building.
And we've said that we believe,or I believe, that the church
will be or has begun measuringtemple activity.
You know, we measure, as theyused to call it, home teaching,
visiting teaching, it's ministryvisits now.
We can measure that.

(53:59):
There's a certain metric in thechurch that you can measure.
Well, you can certainly measure,and the church does measure, how
many people have a templerecommend.
It measures who pays tithing.
It measures who pays what amountin tithing.
I know this from working on thestate presence and being a
bishop.
And it can also know how manyendowments you've done, how many

(54:20):
washing and anointings, and howmany ceilings, and how many
names that you've taken to thetemple.
It can measure that.
And if those numbers areincreasing, then it's showing
growth.
And Elder Rasband is smart tohighlight I'll kind of make
reference to that, you know,unprecedented temple building.

(54:40):
Well, hey, the church is sayingto the world, we are growing.
We are expanding.
Look at the temple growth.
I mean, it's an explosion.
I think that was initiated withPresident Hinckley, I think, and
then President Monson supportedit.
And now it's gone to a whole newlevel with President Nelson.
He is taking over that mantle.
He's picked up the baton andhe's sprinting 150, one-year-old

(55:05):
sprinting to build as manytemples, or at least announce
many temples, as he can.
So that is something to watchfor, you know, for our listeners
and others listening to this,etc., is to watch how the church
is communicating growth throughtemple planning, temple
building, and temple activity.

(55:25):
And I wouldn't surprise me ifwe're getting more specifics at
the unit and the state level tomeasure people's temple activity
they've also pushed the youthgoing to the church sorry going
to the temple as you know theprograms initiatives to get the
youth involved in templeactivity over the last I think
five or seven years so thebuilding these temples a major

(55:49):
initiative and I think all theprograms all the policies and
all the strategies are going toline up and point in you know a
big arrow pointing towards goingto the temple an even bigger
arrow and more measurement onthat In response to your
question earlier about anyspecifics, there was one talk I

(56:11):
did do a bit of a deep dive onthat did concern me.
And that was the one by ElderMark Palmer, Return to Me That I
May Heal You.
Have you read that talk?
Did you listen to that?

SPEAKER_01 (56:27):
When was it?
I think I have, but...
obviously hasn't made animpression.

SPEAKER_00 (56:34):
I'm not sure where it was positioned in the
conference here, but basicallyhe talks about, he gives some
examples about a tree and a treefalls down and then they try to
revive the tree and they replantthe tree and the tree grows
back, if I understand itcorrectly.
But he says here that, he sayshere, and the result, after some

(56:57):
time we saw signs of life as thetree began to take root again.
It's a tree that had fallenover.
Twelve years later, the tree isvibrant and full of life, has
strong roots, and once againcontributing to the beauty of
the landscape.
He says here, while I meetsaints around the world, I'm
reminded of this willow tree andhow there is hope even when all
seems lost.

(57:18):
Some once had testaments of thegospel that were strong and
vibrant like the willow.
Then, for uniquely personalreasons, those testaments became
weakened, leading to a loss offaith.
Others hang on with the slimmestof roots tapping into the gospel
soil.
As the talk goes on, he says,yet again and again, I'm
inspired by the sorrows of somany who have chosen to renew

(57:40):
their discipleship and come backto the church, to their church
home, rather, quote, thandiscarding their faith and
belief like worthless firewood.
Instead, they responded tospiritual promptings and loving
invitation to return.
And he goes on to say that, togive some examples of people
who've returned, but he'spointing his, using examples to

(58:02):
suggest that it's the people'sfault that they've left.
It's because of a lack of faith,a lack of repentance.
If you look at the talk, itmakes references to that.
It doesn't make any reference togenuine, legitimate concerns
that people have got, andcertainly stares well away from

(58:22):
the idea that the church coulddo something wrong, or indeed if
there is any good reason toleave the church.
It's all down to if there's agap between And this is what I
want to try to articulate.
If there is a gap between anindividual and the church or the
gospel, it's not the church'sissue or the gospel or the

(58:44):
church has made a mistake.
It's the person that has decidedto distance themselves, the
person that's moved.
The church hasn't moved.
The church hasn't changed.
It's the person that's changedand the person has moved away
from the church.
In my experience, my experienceis completely opposite, where

(59:05):
the church has changed in someways for the worst.
Its behavior, its actions, itscomments, its positions, or lack
thereof, has brought intoquestion, in my opinion, its
integrity.
and it has changed or lacksintegrity in certain things,
where in those areas, I believeI haven't changed, that my

(59:28):
position is fixed, is the churchthat has moved away from me or
its teachings and itsdiscrimination and its issues
have caused me to not want to bea part of it.
But my position on certainthings hasn't changed.

(59:49):
integrity and honesty andfocused on those really
important things.
And the church, as lack ofintegrity, has compromised its
relationship with me, not theother way around.
And so it seems to oversimplifythe reasons why people leave.

(01:00:12):
And so oversimplification ofreasons for leaving, while The
notes I've made here, while thetext acknowledges uniquely
personal reasons for weakenedtestimonies, it doesn't delve
into the complexity or validityof reasons why people leave.
It doesn't even talk about that.
So I think it's very one-sidedand very narrow and, again, a

(01:00:34):
missed opportunity to say, look,you know, we're not perfect.
We make mistakes.
Yes, there are questions.
We can answer some of thequestions.
We can't answer other questionsbecause we just don't know.
But don't give up on us.
Work with us.
Help us improve.
Help us get better.
And accept that we're notperfect and we don't get

(01:00:57):
everything right.
But at least stay with us andhelp us get better and improve.
There's no room, Jim, forpeople.
There's no room in the churchfor people who want to stay, who
question, who want to help thechurch improve.
The church thinks it's got allthe answers.
And if you don't conform and youdon't toe the line, then, you

(01:01:20):
know, you are the one with theproblem.
So I was very disappointed inthat talk.
I think it's a missedopportunity.
Others I've spoken to got asimilar thought, similar
thoughts and feelings on thattalk.
But overall, I think theconference was boring, boringly

(01:01:41):
safe.
I'd use those two words.
boringly safe.
So same old, same old.
In some ways, that's a goodthing.
You know, the church, you know,the members, a lot of members
are getting what they expect.
And in other ways, it's amissed, massive missed

(01:02:01):
opportunity to be bold, bebrave, be courageous, talk about
key things that are happening inthe world and the position of
the church.
And so overall, looking at thetalks, I think for me
personally, I'm just glad I'mnot part of it.

(01:02:22):
I'm a lot happier where I am.
I couldn't sit through all ofthat.
The whole thing would bore me.
I could read it afterwards.
If there's something quiteextraordinary that's
life-changing and is reallythought through, and I think I
could learn a lot from that, itcould really help me personally
grow.
then absolutely you know thattalk would um would catch my

(01:02:42):
interest and i would follow theadvice but it's um it's it's
stale it's boring and youhaven't seen nothing yet
prophecy well i think we have ii i think we've seen it all i
don't think we're gonna get anymore if if that uh comment by

(01:03:02):
president nelson was to get usexcited well It's kind of fallen
flat.
It's like a fizzy drink that'slost its fizz.
And so I think we've seeneverything, really.
And the next conference, I havehopes, and I'll talk about it
again.
I'll be saying, anotheropportunity for the church to

(01:03:23):
kind of step up and do somethingextraordinary.
But part of me also says, well,it's going to be exactly like
April 2025.
So I don't miss it.
I couldn't sit through it again.
I think if I need to get tosleep, I'll probably plan a
couple of talks and listen tothem and that'll help me get to
sleep.
But it's boringly safe.

(01:03:46):
They're my two words tosummarize April 2025 conference.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:53):
I wish I could push back a little more on that, but
the reality is it certainly wassafe.
And I think there wereexceptions to the boringness.
If I may be so arrogant as tosay, one of the things that I've
always found to be a highlightof conference is the music.

(01:04:17):
And that's even more so now thatI'm actually participating in
creating the music.
But even in the sessions whereit's not the Tabernacle Choir
singing, music is as I've saidmany times on this podcast, but
music is sort of my shortcut toconnect to the divine, to

(01:04:39):
connect to God, to feel theSpirit.
And the music at the conferencealways is uplifting and always
manages to do that for me.
So I just would love to see Itdoesn't need to be boring.

(01:05:02):
We have the technology to quotethe$6 billion man.
We have the ability to make thispresentation something far more
powerful and far more impactful.
And I think eventually we willget there.
We've certainly made somestrides in how we communicate

(01:05:27):
throughout the church, thechurch's media capacity and
ability to communicate and touse all kinds of different media
to do that is really quiteimpressive.
And I would very much like tosee that filter into conference.
And it doesn't seem to have donethat, but I think we kind of
had, uh, fairly similarreactions to this conference

(01:05:52):
and, and, uh, And I think we'reboth equally hopeful that the
next one will be better.
Is that a safe thing to say?
If I'm being bornly safe

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:03):
myself?
No, no, no.
I think it's a very fairstatement.
You know, we talk about thechurch.
We recognize the great thingsthat it does.
Absolutely.
I think it's really important torecognize that.
And to say that there's a lot ofvalue in those safe messages for
people.
You know, the music's a reallyimportant part of the conference
for a lot of people.
I get that.
You know, I connect to music.

(01:06:23):
It's very personal to me, and Iunderstand that.
Those safe messages areimportant to probably most of
the rank and file.
I get that.
I really do.
But I think the church, themembers are looking for some
kind of leadership here, right?
Some kind of...
I'm not saying go completely outon a limb and do crazy things or
things that are too much forpeople, but at least push the

(01:06:46):
boundary, right?
At least just, you know, as aprophet, let's talk about what
you see ahead, right?
You know, your prophet,according to the Book of Mormon,
has got all these qualities andabilities that a prophet can do
and see things to come and andknow and understand things the
way people can't understand.
Let's get a little bit of that.
Let's get into some of that partof the conversation and see

(01:07:08):
where that goes.
And then I think it'll be muchmore engaging.
In terms of the next conference,I will be hopeful and I remain
open-minded.
I still have faith andconfidence that the church will
grow.
I just think it's not happeningquick enough and I think it's

(01:07:28):
partly down to old-fashionedleadership, you know, a bunch of
old guys who are just afraid to,you know, step out of the safety
zone.
But yeah, we'll see what happenssix months from now.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:45):
All right.
Sounds good.
Well, we will be here a weekfrom now, but we will also be
here six months from now to talkabout the next conference.
But very much appreciate yousharing this with us and And to
all of you listening, very muchappreciate all of you listening.
And we hope you will continue tolisten.

(01:08:06):
And we hope that you will joinus for our next episode of
Inside Out.
Thank you very much.