The Miracle of Forgiveness

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Ian and Jim discuss Spencer W. Kimball's book "The Miracle of Forgiveness" and the impact it has had on the Church. 

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out.

(00:19):
My name is Jim Bennett and I amhere as always with the
miraculous Ian Wilkes.
Ian, how are you, sir?
I am doing absolutely fabulous.
How are you, Jim?
You know what?
I'm doing great.
I understand you're heading offto Mexico.
You're heading to a place wewent a couple of years ago.
So you're living an excitinglife.

(00:40):
Life is good.
This is part of your miraculousexistence.

SPEAKER_01 (00:43):
Yes, this is a really important holiday for me
and my family.
And we're excited.
Never been to Cancun, Mexico.
Can't wait.
Excited.

SPEAKER_00 (00:54):
Well, that's very cool.
So I called you miraculous for areason.
because that segues into adiscussion of a book that has
miracle in the title, but Ithink the book is anything but
miraculous.
We decided that it might be agood idea to talk a little bit

(01:14):
about a book that has hadoversized influence on the
church as a whole for decades.
It's a book called The Miracleof Forgiveness by Spencer W.
Kimball.
And this book, it would be hardto overstate what kind of an
impact this book has had.

(01:34):
For a while, it was part of themissionary library.
Do you remember the missionary?
We could read Jesus the Christ,I think the Articles of Faith,
and a few others.
I know LeGrand Richards' book, AMarvelous Work and a Wonder, was
part of it.
I don't remember Miracle ofForgiveness being part of it.

(01:54):
Do you?
No.
I

SPEAKER_01 (01:55):
do.
So in the NTC in London, as ayoung missionary, we were
instructed by the temple and themission president to take the
following books on our missionsto Scotland.
The standard works, obviously.
Articles of Faith, James E.
Talmadge.
Jesus of the Christ, James E.

(02:16):
Talmadge.
Marvelous Work and a Wonder,LeGron Richards, I think.

SPEAKER_00 (02:22):
Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_01 (02:23):
And the other book that we were strongly encouraged
to take, last but not least,Miracle of Forgiveness by
Spencer W.
Kimball.

SPEAKER_00 (02:31):
Lovely, lovely.
I don't remember having it on mymission.
I do remember at some point onmy mission, it might have been
while you were still there, orit might have been after you
went home, but an edict camedown from President Banks that
missionaries were no longerallowed to read the miracle of

(02:55):
forgiveness.
Because if you read the miracleof forgiveness, you feel
anything but forgiven.
The miracle of forgiveness is,forgiveness comes up in the last
two chapters.
I've got the whole book here onPDF, and there are about 20

(03:16):
chapters.
And the last three chapters aretitled The Church Will Forgive,
God Will Forgive, and TheMiracle of Forgiveness.
The rest of the chapters are allabout sin and different ways to
sin.
So if you will indulge me here,on page 25 of the book The

(03:37):
Miracle of Forgiveness, SpencerW.
Kimball, I'm not making this up,Spencer W.
Kimball lists...
Every sin you can commit.
And I just think it would behelpful.
I'm going to read this.
It's 145 words.
And to put that in perspective,the proclamation on the family

(03:59):
is about 250 words.
So according to Spencer W.
Kimball, the following are thesins that you can commit.
Murder, adultery, theft,cursing, unholiness in masters,
disobedience in servants,unfaithfulness, improvidence,
hatred of God, disobedience tohusbands, nothing about wives.

(04:22):
lack of natural affection,high-mindedness, flattery,
lustfulness, infidelity,indiscretion, backbiting,
whispering, lack of truth,striking, brawling,
quarrelsomeness, unthankfulness,inhospitality, deceitfulness,
irreverence, boasting,arrogance, pride, double-tongued
talk, profanity, slander,corruptness, thievery,
embezzlement, the spoiling,covenant-breaking, incontinence,
incontinence is a sin,filthiness, ignobleness, filthy

(04:46):
communications, impurity,foolishness, slothfulness,
impatience, lack ofunderstanding, unmercifulness,
idolatry, blasphemy, denial ofthe Holy Ghost,
Sabbath-breaking, envy,jealousy, malice, maligning,
vengefulness, implacability,bitterness, clamor, spite,
defiling, reviling,evil-speaking, provoking,
greeniness for filthy lucre,Disobedience to parents, anger,

(05:09):
hate, covetousness, bearingfalse witness, inventing evil
things.
That's a funny one.
Inventing evil things.
Flesh sickness, heresy,presumptuousness, abomination,
insatiable appetite,instability, ignorance,
self-will, speaking evil ofdignitaries.
I don't know what that means.
Becoming a stumbling block andin our modern language,

(05:30):
masturbation, petting,fornication, adultery,
homosexuality, and every sexperversion, every hidden and
secret sin and all unholy andimpure practices.
If your sin was not listed inthere.
There is a sin he's missed.
Which one?
And I just did it.

(05:51):
Loud laughter.
Loud laughter.
Where is that?
I think you could find somethingin there that might cover that.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Spencer Kimmel, if you can hearthis, hear my laughter.
You know, I mean, we can look atthis now and we can chuckle and
we can laugh.
I mean, that's absolutelyridiculous.

(06:12):
But we talked in our lastpodcast with Beth Magnetic about
scrupulosity.
And there is no greater...
catalyst for scrupulosity thathas ever been published by the
church than the miracle offorgiveness.
As I was preparing for thispodcast, I went and looked at
everybody's reactions to themiracle of forgiveness.

(06:35):
And everybody, no matter who youare, if you read this book, you
will feel worse about yourself.
You will be convicted of somekind of, you will find yourself
in the plethora of sins thatthat Spencer W.
Kimball lists.
And it's only, you go throughall of this, and it's only when

(06:59):
you get to the end that he evenbrings out the possibility of
forgiveness.
Because he tries to make surethat you feel just as absolutely
awful as you possibly can.
And there are so many things inthis book that the church wants

(07:20):
no longer teaches.
And I was sort of working onthat and trying to figure out
what they were.
One is that the idea, forinstance, that the passage in
Alma where it talks about, knowye not my son, that this is the
most abominable of all sins,except for a shedding of
innocent blood.
It's the miracle of forgivenessthat codified that into policy.

(07:47):
It says explicitly that sexualsin is next to murder in
seriousness.
And we no longer teach thatnearly as explicitly.
But I guess we teach that.
I mean, that's worthy of debateand discussion to determine how

(08:08):
much of that we still teach.
But the way he talks aboutmasturbation, he insists that
masturbation...
leads to homosexuality, uh, thatif you masturbate, it leads to
mutual masturbation and then to,as Spencer W.
Kimball describes it, totalhomosexuality.

(08:28):
So it's partial, I guess, ifyou're masturbating on your own,
but if somebody else is therewith you, then that's just the
next logical extension.
And I just think, what planetare you on?
And I'm shaking my head.
I mean, you're shaking.
I mean, it's, it's just nuts.
Um, And probably the mostdamaging stuff that's in the

(08:51):
miracle of forgiveness is itsreferences to homosexuality
because it describeshomosexuality in ways that we no
longer teach.
And it's very important torecognize that we've changed.
We don't do this anymore.
And yet every time the churchchanges, the church doesn't, um,

(09:14):
The church doesn't acknowledgethat it's changed.
And in fact, the miracle offorgiveness has quietly gone out
of print, just as Mormondoctrine, Brad Rusar McConkie,
has quietly gone out of print.
And the church just pretends itwas never there, didn't happen.
But, I mean, how do you...
Here's the passage aboutmasturbation.

(09:36):
Uh...
While we should not regard thisweakness as the heinous sin,
which some other sexualpractices are, it is of itself
bad enough to require sincererepentance.
On the sentence before that is,our modern prophet has indicated
that no young man should becalled on a mission who is not
free from this practice.
And we've discussed that atlength.
That's no longer the policy.

(09:58):
What is more, it too often leadsto grievous sin, even to that
sin against nature,homosexuality.
For, done in private, it evolvesoften into mutual masturbation,
practiced with another person ofthe same sex, and thence into
total homosexuality.

(10:18):
And it's interesting, the otherthing that's changed in the
church that goes directlyagainst the miracle of
forgiveness is that we no longerteach that a homosexual
orientation is sinful.
that to be attracted to someoneof the same sex is not sinful.

(10:39):
And in fact, we've gone out ofour way to point out that, oh,
homosexual feelings are notsinful, but homosexual actions
are.
And that's sort of where we'vedrawn this line.
And there are problems withthat, but we won't necessarily
get into that right now.
But here in The Miracle ofForgiveness, Spencer W.

(11:00):
Kimball defines homosexuality.
He says this perversion isdefined as, quote, And he puts
this in quotes.
So I'm quoting him quoting,quote, sexual desire for those
of the same sex or sexualrelations between individuals of
the same sex, whether men orwomen.

(11:22):
So right there, it's there inblack and white that Spencer W.
Kimball, it wasn't just actingon it.
It was sexual desire in and ofitself.
is sinful.
And it goes on, it has, I thinkit's led to a number of suicides

(11:44):
in terms of how it describeshomosexuality.
It has that terrible phraseabout, okay, after consideration
of the evil aspects, theugliness and prevalence of the
evil of homosexuality, theglorious thing to remember is
that it is curable andforgivable.

(12:05):
The Lord has promised that allsins can be forgiven except
certain ones enumerated, andthis evil was not among those
named.
Thus it is forgivable if totallyabandoned, and if the repentance
is sincere and absolute,certainly it can be overcome.
For there are numerous happypeople who were once involved in
its clutches and have sincecompletely transformed their

(12:26):
lives.
Therefore, and here's thesentence that just drives me
nuts.
Therefore, to those who say thatthis practice or any other evil
is incurable, I respond, how canyou say the door cannot be
opened until your knuckles arebloody, till your head is
bruised, till your muscles aresore?

(12:47):
It can be done.
And we don't teach that anymore.
We don't believe that anymore.
I think of how many people havepounded their hands against that
door until their knuckles arebloody, till their head is
bruised, till their muscles aresore, and the door does not
open, and their sexual desire,which Elder Kimball, because he

(13:13):
was not a president of thechurch when he wrote this, But
Elder Kimball said the desire inand of itself is wicked.
And people have pounded on thedoor to get rid of that desire.
I mean, I talk to people, thereare people in the Tabernacle
Choir who have desperately triedto change their sexual
orientation and have not beenable to do it.

(13:34):
And I think that every believingLatter-day Saint who finds
themselves confronting desiresthey do not want has pounded on
that door as hard as they can,and it never opens.
You do not change someone'ssexual orientation by being more
righteous, by praying, andthat's what we teach now.

(13:58):
That's not what we taught them.
So there's a whole lot morehere, but that's kind of the
opening rant, openingintroduction.
Have you read this book?
When did you read this book?

SPEAKER_01 (14:10):
Yes, I read this in the MTC in early 80s, early 87,
before traveling to Scotland.
And as I say, it's one of themain books that we were
encouraged to read.
Going back to what you're sayingin the introduction, as you read
that, and I've got it in frontof me, all those words, all

(14:32):
those sins, which is the mostextensive list of sins I've ever
come across.
Some of them are very strange,like...
Filthy communications.
I mean, what's that?
Another one I find quite funny,I guess not funny to Spencer
Kimball, is the fleshliness.

(14:53):
Fleshliness, yeah.
There's some regular ones inthere, and there's some very
strange ones.
He certainly has missed loudlaughter.
He's probably missed a few ofthem, but that's loud laughter
he missed.
But when I read this for thefirst time, I felt...
completely full of sin,inadequate.

(15:17):
It gave me a feeling of there'sno way I can make it back.
There's absolutely so manythings wrong with me.
I thought I was a prettycommitted, devoted, obedient
individual before the mission.
I served a mini mission toprepare for my mission, by the
way, for six weeks and baptizesomebody.

(15:39):
I lived as a missionary for sixweeks before I came out on a
mission.
I think I mentioned that before.
So, you know, missions don't dothat.
They don't serve them in amission.
And I'm not saying I'm, youknow, holy now, nothing like
that.
But I thought I was ready and Ithought I was doing most things
right.
I read that book and I feltcompletely inadequate.

(16:01):
Number two, when I got toScotland and served in the
Dumfries area, I served with amissionary who was just It was
extraordinary.
And I won't mention his name outof respect, but he came to me,
Jim, after he'd had a nervousbreakdown.

(16:21):
The mission president never toldme this missionary had a nervous
breakdown before he came to me.
He'd worked himself to death.
He worked all the hours.
He worked the P days.
And I learned afterwards that hewas driven entirely from...
Trying to live with exactnessthrough the standard works, and

(16:42):
in particular, a book that we'retalking about right now called
The Miracle of Forgiveness.
This missionary was trying tolive and be so obedient that he
could remove all the sins thatyou went through earlier and
live with exactness, so much sothat he had a mental and

(17:05):
physical breakdown.
He was in hospital.
or a month before he came to me,and I was with him, and he was
in an absolute mess.
And he insisted every morningthat we read the miracle of
forgiveness.
This is a book I read in theMTC.
It made me feel uncomfortable.
I felt completely inadequate.
And by the way, all those sinsthat you've just read, you're

(17:27):
describing the human experienceall there.
That is the whole nature ofhumans.
That's what humans do.
We've even got all of those.
Very few people have probablygot all of those, but we've got
many of those.
And then when you are taught asa missionary and as a member to

(17:47):
live with exactness, beobedient, to be perfect, et
cetera, et cetera, the pressureis absolutely intense.
This book was published in 1969.
And again, it discusses theseissues of repentance
extensively.
And it came from actuallySpencer Kimball's vast

(18:12):
experience.
I did a lot of research on hisexperience meeting with members
and listening and responding tomembers' confessions across a
whole range of sins.
while he was a leader andcertainly while he was an
apostle.
And he gathered all thatknowledge and information
together and then that helpedhim write the miracle of

(18:33):
forgiveness.
The book is intense.
It's dangerous.
I believe it's led to suicides,depression.
Again, some of the quotes, it'svery important that I think we
kind of bring some of the quotesto the surface here.

(18:56):
One of them is in page 196 ofthe book.
It says here, it is better todie in defending one's virtue
than to live having lost itwithout a struggle.
I'll repeat that.
It is better to die in defendingone's virtue than to live having
lost it without a struggle.

(19:16):
Now, I had someone come to me asa leader, when I was leader in
the church, who brought that tome.
And they were bringing that tome in the context of this
individual had experiencedsexual abuse.
They'd been sexually assaulted.
And they felt they, having readthis and read some other

(19:39):
material, they questionedwhether they fought this
attacker off as much as theyshould have, or did they fight
enough because they had losttheir virtue and virtue in the
church often is usuallyassociated with sexual virtue
perhaps not always but manytimes it is or a lot of the

(20:01):
times it is in this context ofthis meeting I had this
individual who was speakingabout being sexually assaulted
and they didn't know if they'dthought try to fight this person
enough and carry some shamebecause they questioned whether
they struggled enough Jim tofight this aggressor Often there

(20:21):
was somebody who was sexuallyassaulting them.
And then when they read this,they actually considered suicide
because they'd lost the virtue.
And the Book of Mormon talksabout that.
We've talked about this earlieron the podcast.
And it's clear, not just fromthis scripture, but from the
other material that SpencerKimball had access to prior and

(20:43):
certainly what we're remindedsince on some quotes like Elder
Romney.
And the ensign in 1981 saidthis, when you are released and
returned, we shall be glad tomeet you and welcome you back
into the farmer's circle.
But remember this, my son, wewould rather you come to the
station and take your body offthe train in a casket than to

(21:03):
have you come home unclean,having lost your virtue.
Some other quotes, which alongthe same spirit of the miracle
of forgiveness, it goes on tosay here, it says, there is no
true Latter-day Saints who wouldnot rather bury a son or a
daughter than to have him or herlose his or her chastity.
Realizing that chastity is ofmore value than anything else in

(21:27):
the world.
E.B.J.
Grant.
And another one here, PresidentDavid O.
McKay.
which Spencer Kimball quotes inThe Miracle of Forgiveness, if I
may do this.
Your virtue is worth more thanyour life.
Please, young folk, preserveyour virtue even if you lose
your lives.
So The Miracle of Forgiveness isreplete with references to

(21:50):
living with perfection,exactness, and forgiving and
forgetting things whatevertransgression is committed
against you, essentially beingabsolutely perfect and free from
sin.
Just going back to the storywith the mission that I served
with, by the way.
One morning, about two weeksinto serving my mission with

(22:19):
this individual, in the Dumfriesflat, there's another level
above the sleeping area.
It's where the shower andThere's some storage upstairs in
this flat apartment in Dumfries.
I went upstairs, and I heard,because I could hear a sound,
some noise or commotion, somewailing, actually.

(22:40):
I describe it as wailing.
And I wondered what washappening with my company.
I went upstairs, and as I lookedthrough the crack of the door,
this missionary, and this is thefirst time you've heard this,
was lying prostrate on thefloor, pleading.
begging God, weeping, veryemotional, definitely audible.

(23:03):
You could hear them fromdownstairs.
And he was begging for his lifeto be forgiven.
It was laying prostrate as amissionary.
And I'd only been out a shortperiod of time.
And I left, I came backdownstairs and and never spoke

(23:23):
to this missionary about thisexperience.
Shared it with very few people.
I won't mention his name.
He was a wonderful missionary.
He taught with great power.
When he was himself and wastogether, he was an incredibly
effective teacher.
He really was.
And one of the finestmissionaries I served with when

(23:46):
he was together, when he wasbalanced.
But there were moments...
And having lived with him, I sawit where he was completely
broken.
This concept, this philosophy,this teaching that you have to
be perfect.
You have to live with exactness.
And if you don't, then you arenot worthy and you will not

(24:07):
inherit the kingdom of God.
He wanted to make this ultimatesacrifice to live with complete
exactness.
He even said to me, after youfast, as I was doing, when I
fasted, after I'd fasted, all Icould think about was food.
I like food.
I was fasting.
He made us fast once a week.

(24:28):
After the fast, I was hungry andI just wanted to eat.
And he said, Eli Wilts, no, youwait, you pause and you drink
some water and you wait an houror two, even after you fasted.
And I'm like, why would he dothat?
I just want to eat because I'venot eaten for 24 hours.
He said, Eli Wilts, you controlthe body.
You control, you master yourbody.

(24:49):
And Eli, He taught me that, youknow, he taught me that, you
know, that you can and shouldcontrol your natural
inclinations to do something.
But he actually went on somethings, it went quite extreme
with him.
And he used to read that bookevery morning.

(25:10):
And I believe a lot of hisissues, having lived with him
for a few weeks, were attributedto that book.
And it's extremely dangerous, isthe book.
We made a few flipping commentsearlier, but it is a very
dangerous book because peoplefeel inadequate.
They feel they can't go onbecause they can't forgive

(25:34):
someone, for example, because itsays forgive and forget.
You've got to completely forgivethe person.
And it's very difficult to dothat.
And so it's a book that was...
you know, very destructive.
It talks about, for example, thestatement, as a man thinketh, so
is he, could equally berendered, as a man thinketh, so

(25:55):
does he.
If one thinks it long enough,he's likely to do it.
So if you have any thoughts, anynegative thoughts, you are, you
become that.
You know, like you talked aboutmasturbation, you become gay.
The other thing he talks aboutin the miracle of forgiveness is
that, and this is in thescriptures, by the way, it's
tied to the scriptures, that ifyou seek forgiveness, You

(26:16):
repent, you seek forgiveness,you get forgiven, and you feel
you're forgiven.
But if you go sins again, thoseprevious sins are restored to
you.
Right.
That never made sense to me.
So if you've forgiven, if you'verepented and forgiven, God,
that's it, that's done.
You're forgiven.
The sins are remembered no more.
The slate is clean.

(26:37):
But the teaching in theScriptures and Spencer W.
Kimball is that if you commitanother sin, Whoa, and be tied.
All those sins come back.
So the pressure to live to thatextent makes someone broken.
So this missionary, we talkabout church broke, and I never

(26:57):
understood what that meant untilI served with that missionary.
It was my...
Well, I won't tell you whatnumber companion he was.
He had a big heart.
He was an extraordinary man.
I love him.
I've...
I don't know where he is.
He never kept in touch.
I don't even know if he'sactive.
But that book and the churchbroke him.

(27:19):
It was church broke.
And if the church would havesaid, do this, he would have
done it.
It was blind obedience.
So the book has now become, forme, a book of, I think it's
destructive.
I'm not surprised.
The church doesn't want you toread it anymore.
I'm not surprised it's taken offthe shelves.

(27:40):
I'm not surprised it neverreferences it anymore because
it's been condemned frequentlyover and over again for being so
destructive and destroying fromprofessional counselors who
advised people that I know, stayaway from that book.
So it's an awful book.

(28:03):
It really is.
And I, you know, if you have it,don't read it.
Burn it.

SPEAKER_00 (28:12):
I just wanted on record that you were the one who
said that, not me.
I don't.
Anyway, a couple of things aboutit that have jumped out at me as
I was preparing this.
One being, and I mentionedearlier, the huge lopsided
amount of time spent talkingabout sin and the small amount

(28:36):
of time talking aboutforgiveness.
One of the things that this bookemphasizes is that repentance
should be difficult and painfuland long.
Here's a quote.
There is no royal road torepentance, no privileged path

(28:57):
to forgiveness.
Every man must follow the samecourse.
It is a long road spiked withthorns and briars and pitfalls
and problems.
And I even remember thinkingthis when I first read this
book.
I can't remember actually.
I'm not sure if I've ever satdown and read the whole thing

(29:18):
all the way through.
I did not read it on my mission.
Since my mission, I was in abishopric, actually, where the
bishop would assign this book topeople who were in serious sin.
And he'd say, please read TheMiracle of Forgiveness and come
back and talk to me.
And I have since discovered thatthat was not a unique

(29:40):
experience, that there were anumber of bishops, that this was
sort of their go-to, that if youcame to them with any kind of
serious sexual sin, because whoare we kidding?
That's pretty much the onlyreason why people would go to
their bishop for the kind ofthing that the bishop would give
them the miracle of forgivenessfor.
But this was sort of thepanacea.

(30:01):
that bishops would hand out, themiracle of forgiveness.
This is how you repent.
And it was always a long,painful process.
You know, we've talked aboutpeople who had to wait a full
year to go on their missionsafter they masturbated.
Or people, any kind of sexualsin, the church would always
sort of attach this arbitrarytimeline to it, that you're not

(30:25):
really forgiven until you'vewaited a year.
It's usually a year.
I don't know why it's a year.
But it used to be that if yougot married outside the temple,
you couldn't get married insidethe temple for a year after your
civil ceremony.
That's changed.
The church is changing.
The church has changed since themiracle of forgiveness.

(30:47):
I mean, one of the reasons Idon't want people to burn this
book is that I want this book tostand as a testament to how much
the church has changed.
I want people to be able topoint to something in this book
and say, we don't believe thatanymore.

(31:07):
And there are so many placeswhere we do that.
But I can remember readingpassages in The Miracle to
Forgive and thinking back to theBook of Mormon.
You know, Alma the Younger talksabout His suffering, he was
wracked with, I've got theverses here from Alma 36, he was
wracked with eternal torment formy soul was harrowed up to the

(31:29):
greatest degree and wracked withall my sins.
And so he's talking about howmiserable he is.
But then he says, okay, Iremembered also to have heard my
father prophesy unto the peopleconcerning the coming of one
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, toatone for the sins of the world.

(31:49):
The forgiveness was instant.

(32:15):
It happened at the very moment.
He called out to Jesus.
In the next verse, And oh, whatjoy and what marvelous light I
did behold! Yea, my soul wasfilled with joy, as exceeding as
was my pain.
And when you describe theexperience of your mission
companion, that was not hisexperience.

(32:36):
How many times did he cry out tothe Lord for forgiveness?
And how it led him to layingprostate on the ground because
he could not reconcile thisbecause the miracle of
forgiveness model is you have tosuffer for a very long time, go

(32:58):
through the pitfalls, go throughthe thorns, go through the
problems.
And here you have Alma theYounger, the instant he cries
out to the Lord.
The forgiveness is instant.
And I, for my whole life, havehad a hard time reconciling that
because the church model says,Now, it's not as bad as it was

(33:18):
in the miracle of forgivenessdays, but it's not this.
If you go into your bishop andyou confess a sin, there's going
to be a lengthy process.
I don't know if it's necessarilygoing to be a year.
I don't know if that same timeframe exists.
But we now, we talk about gracein a way we never used to.

(33:43):
with the miracle of forgiveness.
We don't talk about grace enoughfor my liking, but you're seeing
sort of the backlash to this, aquiet backlash that is bubbling
up in conference talks.
Maybe not in all conferencetalks, but you certainly hear it
when Dieter Uchtdorf talks orwhen Patrick Kieran talks.

(34:04):
There is this other strain to anunderstanding of repentance, an
understanding of forgiveness, anunderstanding of the atonement
that just flies in the face ofthis book that tells you,
essentially, you have to beperfect.
He talks about that.
He talks about perfection.
I mean, why list 145 words ofsins if you're not supposed to

(34:29):
overcome every single stinkingone of those?
I mean, the toxic perfectionismwe've talked about on this
podcast, the scrupulosity, thatmy son struggled with on his
mission and that we've talkedabout on this podcast.
I remember telling my son thatwhen I came home from my
mission, I broke my RollingStones records because I

(34:50):
listened to that talk by Gene R.
Cook about Mick Jagger sittingnext to him on an airplane.
And my son said to me, oh, Ididn't know you had scrupulosity
too.
And I did.
And I This whole environment,this whole idea, this whole you
are never enough, you are nevergood enough, you are never
forgiven, it just flies in theface not just of common sense,

(35:17):
but it flies in the face of thescriptural teachings, including
the scriptures of theRestoration.
The Book of Mormon could not bemore clear about Alma the
Younger receiving forgiveness onthe spot, the moment he cried
out unto the Lord.
And we just don't do this.
We don't embrace this.
I think we think that there'ssome kind of, uh, I mean, to me,

(35:41):
it's just a hazing ritual thatwe put people through that
there's, there's some kind ofvalue in that when in fact, it's
a total misunderstanding of whatsin is because we're told over
and over and over again.
Particularly in the NewTestament, Paul talks about

(36:02):
this, that it doesn't matter ifyou murder somebody or if you
can peaches on Sunday, both ofthose sins will keep you out of
the presence of God.
We are utterly helpless withoutthe intervention of the Lord
Jesus Christ.
without his atonement, withouthim stepping in our path.
And it doesn't matter how big orhow small or what the gradation

(36:27):
is or what's the sin next tomurder or what's the third sin
and the fourth sin.
There's no value in rankingsins.
There is eternal value in havingthose sins forgiven by the Lord
that we profess to serve.
And so...
Part of the thing also about themiracle of forgiveness is that

(36:51):
this was written when he was anapostle, and certainly a great
deal of it was reiterated whenhe became president of the
church.
But I have also read EdwardKimball, Spencer W.
Kimball's son's account, of howhe finally arrived at the 1978
priesthood revelation.

(37:11):
And I have to think that SpencerKimball learned an awful lot
about his relationship with theLord through his service as
president of the church, as theprophet of God, who is striving
with the Lord to lift thisterrible priesthood ban and

(37:34):
become more inclusive as achurch.
And so I have to remind myselfwhen I read the Spencer W.
Kimball A Miracle of Forgivenessthat this is also the Spencer W.
Kimball who finally fulfilledthe Book of Mormon promise of a
God who denies none who comeunto him, black and white, bond
and free, all are alike untoGod.

(37:54):
It was Spencer Kimball who wasable to do that.
And so I have to give SpencerKimball grace for the miracle of
forgiveness, which even at theend of his life, he said that he
thought he had gone too far.
I'll try to find the exact quotehere.
But Spencer Kimball recognizedthat this probably was far

(38:19):
harsher than he ought to havebeen.
So that's my rant, and I'm happyto kick it back to your rant.
But at some point, we can't endthis podcast without talking
about Bigfoot.
Bigfoot has to come

SPEAKER_01 (38:36):
into this.
I'm glad you mentioned Bigfootbecause I've got it in front of
me right here.
And I do want to talk aboutBigfoot because when I'm reading
that Miracle of Forgiveness,it's going along with the same
pattern, the same repentance,forgiveness, and sins.
And then all of a sudden, boom,this thing about Bigfoot and
Cain, just like where the helldid that come from?
But I do want to talk aboutthat.
I just want to respond to whatyou're saying.

(38:57):
I think you're being… Verygracious, actually, towards the
miracle of forgiveness in somerespects.
I said earlier that I think weshould burn it and never read it
again.
You said you didn't say that,and that's correct.
I said it, you didn't.
And the reason is that, youknow, like on this podcast, and

(39:19):
we discussed this right at thevery beginning, we come into
this podcast, you and I, withvery different experiences,
different perspectives.
We converged on a missiontogether.
I came from a completelydifferent route, path, route,
path, completely.
You came into it completelydifferent than mine.

(39:40):
Our backgrounds couldn't be anydifferent.
It's like chalk and cheese,right?
Your perspective is different.
Our experience informs ourperspective.
I'm coming at this from aperspective also as a leader.
Now, you served in thebishopric, and I don't know to
what extent you...
saw or experienced the impact ofthat book on people's lives.

(40:01):
And he probably did.
I certainly did.
And I had that book, along withMormon Doctrine, Bruce L.
McConkie.
They were two of the books thatpeople had a real problem with.
And they would bring the...
I had a problem with it.
Do you remember I was born outof wedlock and I brought the
Mormon Doctrine book and quotedBruce L.

(40:22):
McConkie that anyone born out ofwedlock was not worthy to be a
God and only worthy to be anangel and serve other gods.
And I wasn't happy about thatbecause I wanted to be a God.
I'm kind of tongue in cheek, I'mlaughing there, but I'm like,
no, now I'm doing it because Iwant to be like, I want to get
to the top.
And I can't now because I wasborn out of wedlock.

(40:45):
So the Mormon doctoring was aproblem for me on a number of
different issues.
And the miracle of forgivenesswas a problem for me, but many
people, or some of the peoplerather, that came to me as a
bishop who had a problem withthe book and it affected their,
you know, their perspective onlife.
You know, the books facesignificant criticism.

(41:08):
And it's very harsh.
I've just made some notes here,a bit of a synopsis.
It's very harsh in its tone andemphasis on severity, which you
talked about, articulated reallywell.
You know, very strongfear-inducing language I wrote
down there to describe theconsequence of sin.
This can create a sense ofoverwhelming guilt and anxiety.

(41:30):
And I saw that, Jim, in people'slives as they came and
referenced the miracle offorgiveness, that they just
couldn't quite cut it.
They couldn't quite make it.
And those who are strugglingwith feelings of remorse and
people who are depressedalready, clinically depressed,
where they would read the book.
And as our last guest talkedabout, Beth Magnetic, where

(41:51):
people with emotional,psychological conditions,
aspects of Mormonism amplifythat, make the problem worse.
And this book reinforced thoseold dogmas and those teachings,
which made people feel evenworse.
It emphasizes a lot of pains ofhell and meticulous, often

(42:14):
agonizing process of repentancethat you talked about.
Psychologically, it's damagingto somebody who's prone to
anxiety or depression.
And You know, we can relate tothat.
We can certainly relate to thatwith people in our lives who
have got, who suffer fromdepression.
It promotes a climate of fear orcan promote a climate of fear.

(42:38):
If you look at the book, it'smore fear than hope, in my
opinion.
You know, lots of outdatedpolicies and interpretations.
And we said, I want to kind ofswing back to this.
I said, burn it, don't read it.
You said, no, no, no.
We need to keep this evidencethat we don't believe this.
I'll give you this concession.
fine, keep the book, don't burnit, but get on the pulpit and

(42:58):
talk about it and say, hey guys,we've moved beyond this.
Don't silence it.
Don't kind of hide it and nottalk about it.
Oh, we don't talk about thatanymore.
And let's not talk about itbecause it's a problem.
It's like everything else in thechurch.
If it's a problem, oh, maybeit'll go away.
We'll kind of sweep it under thecarpet.
Let's not talk about it.
If we talk about it, people willthink about it and they might

(43:20):
leave the church.
The church would never counselanyone to leave the church if
it's in the interest of themental health.
The book has a relationship withmental health.
And so, fine, if you're going tokeep the book, at least have the
balls to stand up at the pulpitand say, look, this book is is
not part of our recommendedreading material.

(43:43):
We moved on beyond that.
Our knowledge about psychology,depression, counseling, which we
didn't know about then, we nowknow as informed us.
We talk in the temple aboutreceiving greater light and
truth, knowledge.
And so 40 years ago, in 1969,when this was written, so 50
years ago, right?

(44:04):
The world's moved on.
We're much smarter now in thisarea.
So let's say, look, this waswritten back then.
A lot of it I don't agree with.
It's weight.
It doesn't help.
Don't read it.
You know, give us the, you know,A little bit of benefit, if you
like, for acknowledging it,acknowledging the mistakes and

(44:26):
the problems.
And it was written at thatparticular time.
And that's why I focus on thisnew, better material that's
written with all this newknowledge and all this light.
Why not have the courage to dothat instead of not talking
about it?
Because I know people who'vestill got this book on their
bookshelves and they still readit.
You talked about masturbationbeing a serious sin.

(44:48):
That's changed, obviously.
Descriptions of sexualbehaviors, confusion of church
doctrine and guidance about howa leader interprets the book.
So a bishop will read it, or astate president will read it,
and depending on that mindset ofthe individual, they can either

(45:10):
take it strictly, literally, andteach from it, as some people
have, all they can say, look,you know, it is quite strict.
It's Spencer Kimball's strict,you know, very strict, very
narrow thinking, if you like.
I mean, they probably wouldn'tsay that.
Very prescriptive is the word Iwould use about the book, you
know, very specific and veryprescriptive.

(45:31):
And a good leader would say,look, you know, don't take it
literally.
Don't take it as, you know,as...
serious or as strict as youshould or you are doing.
But, you know, the church, thesenior leadership would never do
that.
I've only seen that at my, youknow, with someone like me and
other leaders like me who'veseen this book for what it is

(45:53):
and actually encouraged themember who's reading it to give
it, you know, proper balanceperspective, right?
You know, it says here that thebook can also lead to
discouraging victims fromseeking help.
created a culture of silencearound sexual assault.
It can also cause victims tobelieve they're responsible for
the crimes they've committedagainst them.

(46:14):
There's some comments on LGBTQin there as well.
You've talked a bit about that,right?
And so, you know, a lot of it isdown to the interpretation.
So when you write a book likethat, a prophet, remember, this
is a prophet we're talkingabout, not Some regular apostle
or some standard generalauthority.
This is a prophet of the Lordwho was alive when there was a

(46:37):
major historical change in 1978when Kimball was the prophet of
the Lord who restored, if youlike, the priesthood to the
blacks and the temples to theblacks.
blessing to the blacks.
A very significant figure inchurch history.

(46:59):
And so my closing comments onthis is to whoever's listening,
as church leaders, if you'relistening, is to don't be silent
on something like this again.
Speak up.
People still have issues withthis book.
It's still on people's shelves.
People still read it.
It's still...

(47:19):
It's part of the culture of thechurch.
We talk about, we've got peopleon the podcast who've got this
antiquated, archaic thinking,like the blacks didn't want the
priesthood and they weren'tworthy of having the priesthood,
et cetera.
There's still people like thatin the church, Jim, today.
We've had them on the podcast,right?

(47:40):
They're still alive and well andhave not changed their thinking.
And these books, unless weaddress them, and talk about
them as a leader and say, look,we've moved on from that.
We don't think like thatanymore.
We don't feel like that.
You'll always have an element ofthe church who think like, you
know, outdated, antiquated, youknow, dinosaurs that think.

(48:05):
It's very, very destructivebecause they're perpetuating
that doctrine, that teaching.
So fine, keep the book, keep thebook as evidence of, you know,
how far we've gone, but atleast, you know, Give it a
modern interpretation.
Please, if whoever's leaderslistening out there, just take

(48:28):
an opportunity to talk about itand remind people that they are
good enough.
What did you say?
We did that podcast.
It was your podcast.
It was your idea.
It was a genius idea.
I loved it.
And I think it was titled, YouAre Enough.

SPEAKER_00 (48:48):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (48:49):
And do you know what?
You know, I said to mymissionary companion during the
companionment tree, and I said,you've got enough.
I used to build him up becausehe feels so low and all the
works.
I'm not doing this.
I'm not doing that.
I'm not doing that.
I said, hang on a minute.
Look what we just did.
We had a great day.
We taught three discussions.
We had only, we only, I only hadthree books of Mormon thrown at

(49:09):
us out of four.
Okay.
We only had like$10 slam dollarsinstead of, you know, the normal
day.
Right.
I said, you know, behalf, uh,full not behind empty but he
wouldn't he wouldn't take itfrom me right you know we are
good enough we've got so muchgood in us and we should be
focusing on that you know christmotivated the spirit of christ

(49:33):
is not in that book i don'tbelieve the spirit of christ is
look you're good enough You'redoing all these great things.
You're doing this, you're doingthis, you're doing this great.
Yeah, there's these other areasthat you have to work on.
There's some areas forimprovement, but you're going to
do it.
Do you know why?
Because you just kind of kickedit out of the park on this
stuff.
And you can do that stuff.

(49:53):
Will you reach perfection inthis life?
You won't.
And no one will.
And only I can.
In fact, Christ is not me, youknow, Ian, but if I'm Christ
speaking, right?
Only Christ can say that.
But I believe the gospel ofChrist is, is is affirmative is
positive is focused andaccentuates the positive and

(50:14):
that is in complete contrast inmy personal opinion having read
the book at least three timesand going on my perspective in
the church as a leader as abishop and people coming to me
who have read this book or feelthey're worthless they're
useless life is hopeless andthey will never make it.

(50:35):
And so what's the point?
And I've even had people whohave contemplated suicide
because they're not good enough.
And my message is, you know, ifyou are feeling depressed or
you're prone to psychologicaldepression and anxiety, do not
read this book.
I beg you, don't read it.
Throw it away.
Do whatever you want with it.
Go read a different book.

(50:56):
Go read something uplifting.
And there are many, manyuplifting books, Jim, in the
church.
You know you're a bit of ascholar more than I.
There are numerous books whichfocus on the positive and focus
on we are good enough.
Miraculous forgiveness is notone of them.

SPEAKER_00 (51:17):
I would agree with that.
I would agree with that.
And I'm heartened by the factthat Spencer W.
Kimball's family would agreewith that.
I found an article from the SaltLake Tribune that was published
right after The Miracle ofForgiveness was taken off the
shelves.
And it quotes Edward Kimball'sbiography of his father.

(51:40):
It says, the book's tone,tougher than Spencer's in-person
counseling, reflected his beliefthat people rationalize sin too
quickly and consider repentanceeasy.
That goes into my whole thingthat I ranted about earlier.
Indeed, writes the son, Miraclewas a book, quote, more on sin
and repentance than than onforgiveness, end quote.

(52:03):
Kimball, quote, later seemed towish he had adopted a gentler
tone, end quote.
In 1977, the Mormon leader saidto Lyle Ward, his neighbor,
sometimes I think I might'vebeen a little too strong about
some of the things I wrote inthat book.
And his grandson is at the end,Jordan Kimball, says, I would

(52:24):
want him to be remembered forhis love, compassion, and
encouragement.
Miracle grew out of hisexperience of the 1940s, 50s,
and 60s, and in its time, itdidn't seem out of place, but it
was used beyond its due date.
Even the church has moved on.
And that's what you're saying,and I want to echo that.

(52:49):
I think there's so much in thechurch that could be fixed, that
could be improved, that could beuplifting if we were to confront
our mistakes head on.
Because even if you burn thisbook, it doesn't go away.
We now live in the age of theinternet.

(53:11):
Books don't disappear if thepaper is gone.
This book, we know it existed.
We know it exists.
And we need to confront it headon.
And we would be in such astronger position when we're
counseling with people who areleaving the church over this

(53:31):
kind of overreaction that wasprevalent in the 40s, 50s, and
60s that's reflected in thisbook.
They're leaving because theydon't want that kind of church.
We would be in a much strongerposition to be able to tell them
we're not that kind of a churchanymore because here's what we
used to teach and we now disavowit.

(53:53):
We don't believe that anymore.
I mean, the disavowals are sofar removed from what it is
that's being disavowed.
I mean, we've said we disavow,for instance, all of the
theories put forth about thepriesthood ban.
Well, they were put forth byBrigham Young and the church.

(54:14):
I mean, they act like thishappened in some kind of
disconnected ethereal vacuumwhere there's a direct link
between It's, you know, M.
Russell Ballard saying, I don'tknow where people got the idea
that you're supposed tochallenge people to be baptized
on the first discussion.
Well, I got it.
I know where I got it.

(54:35):
I got it from the missionmaterials that were provided to
me by the church.
That's where I got it.
There's no way on earth I wouldhave challenged anyone to a
baptism in the first discussionif I wasn't explicitly told to
do so.
I mean, over and over and overand over again, we change for
the better.
But we refuse to acknowledge thepast.

(54:56):
We refuse to acknowledge themistake that we made.
And miracle of forgiveness,everybody can now acknowledge
that it was a mistake.
And so I'm going to close.
I'm going to use Bigfoot as aclosing because the reason we
keep talking about Bigfoot, forthose of you who don't
understand, for whatever reason,and I don't know what point he

(55:18):
was trying to make, but forwhatever reason, Spencer W.
Kimball cites A folklore storyof David W.
Patton riding in the woods, andup next to him comes this
seven-foot-tall Wookiee,essentially.
This just massive, hairy, sayshis skin was very black, and his

(55:39):
whole body was covered in hair.
He wasn't wearing any clothes.
So he really is Chewbacca, iswho we're talking about.
Yeah, it's Chewbacca.
In fact, I remember watchinga...
An interview with Mark Hamill,who played Luke Skywalker, who
said that when they screenedStar Wars for the executives,
like, can't they put some kindof, you know, apron or something

(56:05):
around Chewbacca?
And he's like, their biggestproblem was the Wookiee had no
pants.
But apparently Kane had no pantswhen he came up to talk to David
W.
Patton and said that he wascursed to roam the Earth and And
that he could never die.
And he prays for death, buthe's...
And anyway, people looked atthat and said, well, that's

(56:25):
Bigfoot.
That's where all the legends ofBigfoot come from is the cane is
wandering around.
And that was big folklorethrough all of this, which is
ridiculous.
But at one point I was having adiscussion with a guy in my ward
and we were talking about thisand we were all laughing or both
of us were like, yeah, this isfunny.
And then this guy in my wardsaid, I'm so grateful that that

(56:50):
president Kimball wasn't yet thepresident of the church when he
wrote that.
And I'm like, well, why?
And he said, because then if hewere, we would have to believe
it.
And I laughed at that and hedidn't.
And he thought I was faithlessfor laughing at that.
And I said, we wouldn't, I don'tdisbelieve it because Spencer W.

(57:16):
Kimball was only an apostle whenhe wrote it.
I don't believe it because it'snot true.
And as President Eyring likes toremind us over and over again in
this church, you don't have tobelieve anything that isn't
true.
And, you know, so it's thiswhole idea that if he had

(57:36):
written this when he waspresident of the church, that
would have been sort of aninfallible statement written by
the finger of God on tablets onMount Sinai.
And That whole mindset, thatwhole idea that we can't allow
Spencer Kimball the grace to bewrong, that we can't look and

(57:59):
say, you know what?
At the end of his life,President Kimball recognized
that he had gone too far withthis book, that this book was
just probably too harsh.
And, you know, all of us, I hopenone of us are judged by where
we are in the middle of ourjourneys.

(58:20):
I hope we're all judged by noteven where we are at the end of
our journeys, at least whenwe're talking about mortality.
I hope we are judged by thedirection we are going in.
And there are plenty ofstatements by church leaders
that talk about that, thatemphasize that, that it's not
where you are, it's where areyou going?
What direction are you headedin?

(58:42):
And that's what the Lord isconcerned about.
He's concerned about the desiresof our hearts, of our intents.
He's not sitting up there withSpencer Kimball's checklist of
145 sins and trying to see ifyou're guilty of fleshliness,
but you're not guilty of, whatis it, something about filthy
lucre.
Anyway, I mean, but the churchis so much healthier for having

(59:10):
moved on beyond miracle offorgiveness.
It would be healthier still ifthey would announce and
acknowledge that they have donethat.
Because as you point out, thereare plenty of people that cling
to it, that in the absence of anexplicit disavowal are still
willing to go forward and say,this represents the mind and the

(59:33):
will of the Lord.
And it absolutely does not Andwe recognize as a church it does
not.
It is not faithless to say, Ibelieve what the church teaches
now.
Because I can't believe both atthe same time.
I can't believe thathomosexuality is a curable

(59:53):
perversion.
I mean, he uses the word pervertso many times in that book.
That's the thing that jumped outat me a number of times when I
read it.
Because that's not a word thatpeople use in normal
conversation.
But...
I can't believe thathomosexuality is curable if you
just pound on the door hardenough, and also believe that

(01:00:15):
it's not curable and that youshouldn't expect to have your
sexual desires change in thislifetime.
I can't believe both at the sametime.
I have to choose which one ofthose two things I'm going to
believe, and I choose to believethe thing the church teaches
now.
So if anybody's going to pushback and say, well, this is
faithless for you guys to beatup on the miracle of

(01:00:37):
forgiveness, I'm saying, do youbelieve what the church teaches
now?
Because it flies in the face ofso much of what the miracle of
forgiveness taught.
You have to choose one or theother.
And I choose a church that isrooted in continuing revelation?
that is rooted in greater lightand knowledge and in the idea

(01:00:59):
that we progress, not just asindividuals, but as a
collective, as an institution.
The church makes progress.
The church goes forward.
And the church has gone forward.
And we need to recognize that.
And we also need to recognizewhere we've come from.
Otherwise, that forward motionwill be lost on far too many

(01:01:24):
people.
So that's my final word on thesubject.
Do you have any rebuttal?
Not rebuttal, there's somefinal, I

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:31):
could cover what you're saying.
Just a quick final thoughts.
The only true living church uponthe face of the earth, and I
make frequent reference to thatbecause I kind of put a lot of
weight on that, prophets, mindof God, know more than anyone,
see things like no one else cando, see, feel things like no one
else could feel.
Why doesn't the church, with allof its wisdom, further light and

(01:01:53):
knowledge, understand and acceptthat the advice from almost
every professional currentlyliving on the planet,
psychologists, counselors, thatthe only way to resolve problems
of this nature, you know,depression, anxiety,
scrupulosity, trying to live toperfection, trying to forgive

(01:02:15):
someone who's committed an awfulsin or crime against you, and
the only way to understand Realmeaningful, purposeful growth
and change and transformation isto talk about it.
To talk about this stuff.
When you go for counseling, thegoal, one of the goals is to

(01:02:40):
talk about it, to open up.
That in itself is a challenge.
And why can't the church on thisissue and many other issues have
that wisdom, knowledge,intelligence, to talk about this
stuff with confidence and justsay, hey, made a mistake.
We got it wrong.

(01:03:00):
We had a different perspective.
We've improved.
We've changed.
Look at this.
I don't want to have so muchrespect for them.
I really would.
My comment earlier about burningthe miracle of goodness is not
intended to disrespect anyone inthe church.
It is, of course, you can'tdestroy the book.
The book's out there.
It's the internet.
I get that.
It was partially symbolic aswell.

(01:03:21):
And as I said, you know, Hecan't disappear.
But let's talk about it.
In talking about it, we heal.
We strengthen.
Our understanding grows.
We have a different perspective,and we have more of a
Christ-like perspective.
That's the first thing.
Two more comments, real quick.

(01:03:42):
By the way, this might surpriseyou and surprise other people.
Spencer Kimball, believe it ornot, is one of my favorite
prophets.
Aside from these issues, youknow, the priesthood and the
blacks, I did the right thing.
I don't know the background ofthat, you know, how it happened.
I think he made the rightchoice.
Aside from the miracleforgiveness problems that I've
got, and I've seen thatadversely impact people's lives,

(01:04:03):
when I heard him speak, he wasone of the most kindest, loving
prophets ever.
Not just prophets, men, people,individuals.
He spoke with love, and I felt aspirit from that.
And I want to...
put that on the record.
I'm glad you mentioned Bigfootthere, but the third thing that

(01:04:23):
I want to say, you said, and I'mnot trying to misquote you here,
that Elder Bowers said, itdoesn't know where you got, it's
not related to the birth ofJesus, but I can't let it go
here.
I think you said that ElderBowers said he doesn't know
where it came from to, what wasit, to challenge him for

(01:04:44):
baptism.
I'll tell you where it camefrom.
You heard it here.
It came from him.
You know why I know that?
Because in July 1987, and I wasin the room, he instructed the
missionaries, this was beforeyou came out, it was in the
Edinburgh Chapel, that to goonto Princess Street in
Edinburgh, and by the way, Iremember, I've got the tape, he

(01:05:06):
said that he was a missionary inthe British Isles 39 years ago.
He said that in July 1987, dothe math, right?
And he said, if you go ontoPrincess Street in GQ, He's
talking about getting on a boxwhen he was a missionary on
Princess Street.
He said, if you go there and youstart teaching people, he said,
you can challenge people on GQand on the first discussion.

(01:05:29):
So where did it come from?
It came from him.
And I know it's nothing to dowith the mirror for forgiveness,
kind of, but I want to mentionthat because I was there.
And I testify to you that hesaid that, okay?
I just want to say in closing,I'm so grateful we're talking
about this book.

(01:05:50):
And I'm grateful that we arefocusing and accentuating the
positive in people.
And I will remind our listenersthat a few weeks ago, the idea
that Jim Bennett had, Jim, theunofficial prophet of the
church, I'm kind of jokingthere, But the person with

(01:06:10):
wonderful insight, in myopinion, had the idea to talk
about individuals being goodenough.
And whoever's out therelistening, you are easily good
enough.
Build on the success.
Focus on the positive.
Look at what you've done.
Look what you've achieved.
All extraordinary things thatyou've achieved and yet to

(01:06:31):
achieve.
You're not perfect.
You're going to make mistakes.
You won't be condemned forever.
You said earlier, Jimmy remindsus a few weeks ago, we are saved
by grace after all we can do.
Remember that?
We do all we can.
We do the best we can.
We be the best we can.
Whatever the worldwide part, webe the best.
And in the end, I believe Christmakes up the difference.

(01:06:55):
For those reasons, you know,focusing on the positive, to be
able to see it in contrast, I'mreally grateful that we have
this conversation and to remindpeople that absolutely they are
good enough and they can makeit.
And you can be As much and morethat you could ever achieve and
nothing can stop you, especiallyif you've got people around that

(01:07:15):
love you and support you, youcan achieve great things.
And Christ teaches this.
And that's the message here,that you're good enough.
You're absolutely freakingawesome, actually.
And you've achieved so much.
And you're not perfect.
And that's okay.
It's okay not to be perfect.
Look at Jim Bennett.
He's not

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:34):
perfect.
Right.
My only quick rebuttal to yourrebuttal, which I endorse
wholeheartedly, is that phrase,and we talked about this when we
talked about being good enough,that phrase, it is by grace
after all we can do, is veryoften cited as, okay, we do 90%

(01:07:58):
and then Jesus does the extra10.
He just sort of pushes us overthe hump.
There has been a great deal ofresearch about that phrase.
There was a wonderful paper byDr.
Daniel O.
McClellan about that phrase.
That is a 19th century phrasethat is the equivalent of saying

(01:08:20):
at the end of the day, like howwe use that phrase today.
We'll say things like, well, atthe end of the day, all that
matters is grace, right?
Well, after all we can do, whatmatters is grace, right?
that what that verse,essentially the phrase, after
all we can do, actually meant atthe time the Book of Mormon was

(01:08:42):
published.
Essentially, despite all we cando.
That it's not just Jesus givingus that extra little bump.
It's that Jesus is the one whosaves us.
That we are completely andtotally lost.
I mean, if you want to talk interms of percentages, I would

(01:09:03):
say that what we do is way lessthan 1%, and that Jesus'
infinite atonement is what savesus.
And this is the trouble we getinto, because President
Uchtdorf, or when he wasPresident Uchtdorf, talked about
this, is that our good works arenot done in order to satisfy a

(01:09:26):
checklist.
Our good works demonstrate ourfaith in Christ.
And it is our faith in Christthat activates Christ's grace
and forgiveness and salvation isa free gift that Christ gives
us.
So you are absolutely goodenough because Christ thinks you

(01:09:48):
are good enough.
Good enough that he's willing tosave you no matter where you
are, as long as you have faithin him and you're demonstrating
that faith through the effortsthat you put forward to try to
live a Christ-like life.
So that's my rebuttal to yourrebuttal.
Barring any rebuttal to myrebuttal to your rebuttal, we

(01:10:09):
should wind this up.
I think this has been a greatdiscussion.
But we don't say this enough toall of you listening, but we so
much appreciate you out there.
I didn't tell the story, butsomebody– well, I'll tell you
that later– We're just sograteful for all of you, for

(01:10:29):
everybody who's listening.
You are enough.
You're freaking awesome.
We're grateful that you'relistening to Inside Out, and we
hope you'll join us again fornext week's episode of Inside
Out.
And thank you, Ian.
Thank you, Jim.