You Are Enough

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Ian and Jim explore the challenge of toxic perfectionism in the Church. 

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out.

(00:19):
My name is Jim Bennett and I amhere as always with the
estimable Ian Wilkes.
Ian, how are you, sir?

SPEAKER_02 (00:27):
I'm doing really well and I have no idea.
Once again, what that wordmeans.
I thought I was very good withwords in the English language
coming from England, but I guess

SPEAKER_01 (00:36):
not.
Estimable.
It's like worthy of esteem.
Worthy of great respect.
She was shown into thatestimable woman's presence is
the line in the dictionary

SPEAKER_00 (00:48):
online that defines the word.
Because if you are estimable...

SPEAKER_01 (00:58):
You are worthy of respect, but you are not
perfect.
And I wanted to talk about thekind of perfectionism that
pervades the church based on atalk that my bishop gave this
past week in ward conference.

(01:18):
My bishop stood up and talkedabout his time when he was on a
state basketball championshipteam In Sandy, Utah, he was in
1992, the Alta Hawks won theUtah State Basketball
Championship, and he was on thatteam.
And it was amazing.

(01:39):
He remembered every aspect ofthe season.
He could list every single teamthat his basketball team
encountered and did so in order.
He says, then we beat this team,and then we beat that team, and
then we beat this team.
So this had been emblazoned inhis memory in a way that he had
almost perfect recall of theentire season.

(02:01):
But he talked about the factthat in the month of February of
that season, that their team hita rough spot.
He said some of the peopledidn't want to practice hard
enough.
That's how he described it.
And he also described that therewas team infighting and there
were other problems and theyjust weren't doing anything
right.

(02:22):
And so for the whole month ofFebruary, they didn't win a
single game.
And they didn't think they wereeven going to make it to the
state championship tournament.
But they turned things around.
They started working really,really, really hard.
And wouldn't you know it, theygot into the tournament.

(02:42):
And then they got into thefinals.
And they won the finals.
Well, sports analogies are thickon the ground.
in church settings.
Me not being an athlete, I kindof get tired of them, but we
hear them an awful lot.
And the sports analogy wasessentially that this

(03:04):
championship was very much likethe gospel of Jesus Christ and
that we sometimes don't want topractice hard enough.
And we should be working harder.
And he used examples of thingslike, we need to tend the temple
more.
We need to pray more.
We need to read our scripturesmore.
And that was the analogy, justlike practicing basketball.

(03:27):
And if we don't do all of thosethings over and over and over
and over again, we're not goingto be in the celestial kingdom.
Now, my bishop is a good man.
And my bishop is a compassionateman and couched all of this in
his incredible love for the wardthat he has served quite well.

(03:51):
I think he's coming up on theend of his service.
He started during COVID andwe're about five years out and
they're still sort of releasingbishops every five years, but
he's going to be our bishop atleast for a little while longer.
But He's a good man and hasgreat affection for the ward and
has served the ward well.

(04:12):
As I listened to him, however, Irealized that his message is
very consistent with just aboutevery message I've heard on the
subject of what we need to do inorder to enter the celestial
kingdom, in order to returnhome.
And I also started thinking,It's always a message.

(04:38):
And so I'm trying to point out,I'm not trying to single out my
bishop because this is true ofPresident Nelson.
This is true of almost everymessage I've ever heard in
general conference.
This is true of church leadersover and over and over again.
And the message is always,you're not doing enough.

(04:58):
You're not, there is always morethat you can do.
Now, That is a true messagebecause there is always more
that we can do.
There's always more that we cando in any aspect of our life.
I'm happily married, but there'salways more I can do to improve

(05:21):
my marriage.
I think I am an estimablefather, but there's always more
I can do to be a better father,et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
So I'm not trying to denigrateanybody that gives this message.
But what occurred to me is Ihave never, never once heard
anybody stand at the pulpit andsay, you are doing enough.

(05:47):
You are good enough.
I am really happy with what youare doing.
You are on track to go to thecelestial kingdom.
And it's always there is moreyou have to do.
And no matter how estimable weare, There's always more that we
can do.
And there's never a moment inthe church where we say, you

(06:12):
know, you're really doing great.
You're on the right track.
You're, you're, you know, justkeep doing what you're doing.
You're doing fine.
We don't hear that message.
And that comes, I think thereare a couple of places that
comes from.
We have the book of Mormon thattalks about woe unto him who is
at ease in Zion.
Woe unto him who saith all iswell.

(06:35):
So we shouldn't sing come, comeye saints, I guess.
But the idea, we should never beat ease in Zion.
We should never, ever besatisfied with where we are.
And the problem with thatmessage, you know, we had a
conversation with my son,Samuel, who was diagnosed with
scrupulosity when he was servinghis mission.

(06:58):
And at one point, Samuel waspraying 15 times a day.
And his therapist had to tellhim, you know, that's not
healthy.
That's not helping you.
But Samuel had sort ofincorporated the message that
I'm not doing enough.
Nothing I do is enough.
So praying 15 times a day in hismind wasn't enough at that

(07:22):
point.
Now he has sought, I think,competent and helpful mental
health counseling and And Ithink that's a good thing, and I
think his relationship to thechurch and his relationship to
God is stronger and in ahealthier place than it was when

(07:43):
he was praying 15 times a day.
But I can't help but wonder ifthat constant message that
you're just not enough, you'rejust not doing enough, I think
that message ultimately

SPEAKER_00 (08:00):
can do a great deal of damage.
as I did, but anytime you would

SPEAKER_01 (08:08):
talk to an evangelical Christian, my
trainer used to call them savedhitters, which is another sports
analogy, I guess.
But the idea is that these guyswere saved, right?
They knew they were going toheaven.
And once you are born again,once you accept Jesus Christ as

(08:29):
your savior, evangelicalChristians essentially say,
that's it, you're done.
And you're saved no matter whatyou do.
And we used to make fun of thesepeople.
We used to sort of mock thesepeople as lazy or complacent.
And no, no, no, you're not justsaved.

(08:49):
You have to, it's the secondNephi thing.
You've just entered in by thegate and you have to endure to
the end.
And you don't know if you'resaved until the end of your
life.
And That seemed to me to be areally logical conclusion when I
was a missionary.
But the older I've gotten, themore I start to realize just how

(09:14):
tenuous that position is becauseyou spend your entire life
essentially in fear.
Your entire life that no matterhow good you have been, you are
always on a knife's edge thateventually you can fall and you
can stop doing enough or you canfall short of doing enough.

(09:36):
And eventually all the goodstuff that you did won't matter
if you just don't make it tothat finish line, having done
all that you can do.
That's the other Book of Mormonscripture that fuels this idea.
The idea that we are saved bygrace after all we can do.

(09:56):
When in fact, I think it's beenably demonstrated by Dr.
Dan McClellan, that after all wecan do is a 19th century idiom,
meaning despite all we can do.
It's like at the end of the day,or it's just an expression to
describe something that has beenmisinterpreted now as, okay, you

(10:23):
need to do all these things.
You need to practice really,really, really, really hard,
work really hard.
And then Jesus puts you over thefinish line.
But unless you get 99% of theway yourself with all you can
do, it's not going to be enough.
And I've since come to realizethat that is an exceptionally
toxic way to look at the gospel.

(10:47):
And that, in fact, it is gracethat saves us despite all we can
do.
And no matter what we do, thegap between us and God needs to
be filled with Jesus Christ.
And the efforts that we make tofill that gap are minuscule at
best, that it's the grace ofChrist that does save us.

(11:11):
And so more and more, as Ithought about this, I thought,
okay, so what's the solution?
Because the church, I don'tthink the church will ever say,
okay, well, you're a savedhitter.
You don't need to worry aboutdoing anything.
Like the evangelicals would tellyou.

(11:34):
But is there some way to teachthe message of, yes, it's
important to do good things andto live a good life and to do
all of these things withoutcreating that kind of toxic
perfectionism and that kind ofuncertainty that that I no

(11:59):
longer am willing to accept inmy life, if that makes sense.
I have reached a point where Iam no longer willing to love God
or obey God out of fear or evenout of duty.
I want my relationship with Godto be a familial relationship.

(12:21):
If he's my heavenly father, thenI want to have the kind of
relationship with him that I hadwith my earthly father.
who was, you know, expected agreat deal from me and was
always trying to get me to bethe best person I could be, yet
all along loved meunconditionally, accepted me for

(12:42):
who I was, accepted me where Iwas.
And when I fell short of hisexpectations, it wasn't that I
feared him or that I feared, oh,geez, dad's going to punish me.
It was, I don't want my fatherto be disappointed in me because

(13:02):
I love my father and Iappreciate his example and I
want to emulate it.
And so that's kind of where mypersonal faith is.
So that's, I thought would besomething that would be good to
discuss here because you now onthe outside of the church, my
guess is you've dealt with agreat deal of this kind of toxic

(13:24):
perfectionism, not necessarilyeven in your own life, but
serving in the state presidency,serving as a bishop, that people
would come to talk to you andthat you would counsel them, and
that this was an issue thatwould come up

SPEAKER_00 (13:38):
repeatedly.
Is that correct?
Concern, issue,

SPEAKER_02 (13:46):
across all of the callings I've been involved in
from elders, current presidents,well, mission leaders, certainly
bishop and state presidency, andacross rank and file members,
people of all backgrounds andexperiences, there was a common
thread that a lot of people feltnot good enough or weren't doing
enough or felt they weren'tbeing good enough or doing

(14:08):
enough.
When you selected this week'stopic, which I think is
fantastic, it's a very, veryimportant topic to talk about
because it extends to everyaspect of of the individual
serving member, connects withthem at every level, and it

(14:30):
connects to every aspect of thechurch.
And when you suggested thistopic, my ADHD AI brain, as I
describe it, works like an AImachine within seconds.
It's how my brain works soquickly.
I'm coming up with all kinds ofstuff from my experience, from

(14:51):
the mission.
Literally within 10 seconds, 15,20 seconds, I've got part of it
mapped out.
It's strange how my brain works.
It's like an AI thing.
It comes with pros and cons.
So when I was listening to youand certainly when you were
suggesting we talk about this,which is a very important topic,
and thank you for bringing itup.

(15:12):
I'm very grateful.
I thought of all kinds ofthings.
I'll try to put them in someorder as I can.
If you look at the scripture,there's a scripture which is in
the New Testament and, ofcourse, in the Book of Mormon.
And Elder Holland talks about itextensively in his talk titled,
Be Ye Therefore Perfect, Hyphen,Eventually, which he gave back

(15:37):
in October 2017, where he quotesthat, Be ye therefore perfect,
even as...
Your Father in heaven isperfect.
And I think in the New Testamenthe talks, I think he mentions
some additional words like, evenas I and your Father is perfect.
But there is a, at least in myperspective and many other

(15:58):
perspectives, an interpretationthat this is a commandment, Jim,
a commandment to be perfect.
We're commanded to be perfect.
I take that more than aninstruction or a guidance or a
piece of advice.
or a recommendation or even asuggestion, I take that as a
commandment.
And I'm not the only one to dothat.
So there's a lot of pressure onus as members, not me now, but

(16:20):
on you as a member, to beperfect.
And there's been lots of talksabout what that means.
When you start talking aboutperfection in its literal sense,
the church leaders, certainlylocally, will say, look, you
probably won't achieveperfection in this life.
You can strive, use the wordstrive, I can, the temple
recommend questions.
Do you strive to, um, I can'tremember the question, but I

(16:42):
memorized them word for word,but I've forgotten them over the
years, but do you strive to be,um, you know, obedience, uh, you
know, with the commandments, etcetera.
You know, we strive to beperfect.
It's something that we pursue.
We strive and you probably wantit.
You will rather not achieve itin this light.
And then when you start talking,certainly in the, um, leadership

(17:03):
meetings that, you know, there'smembers thinking that, Just
accept them as they are.
We talked about this on a recentpodcast.
Just, you know, here I am withall my faults.
Accept me as I am.
I'm doing the best I can.
If I don't make it, God willsave me in the end.
You know, saved by grace afterall we can do.
And the church also is concernedabout that.

(17:24):
I think the Hollands also talkabout that in the sense that
it's not enough.
The Lord won't accept you as youare.
You have to change.
And on the back of that, theytalked about, I'll try to revise
the meaning and definition ofunconditional love.
that in one of the talks, atleast, that God won't love you
unconditionally if you're notdoing enough.
It's very confusing.
The church is very worried aboutmembers not doing enough because

(17:47):
the entire engine of the church,that's the operation of the
church, almost entirely reliesand is dependent on the
volunteer time and commitmentsof members.
I mean, 90-odd percent, 95% plusvolunteers.
rests almost entirely,day-to-day operations,
week-to-week operations,tithing, every calling you can

(18:09):
think of across every geography,across different jurisdictions,
et cetera, across different maleand female groups in the church.
It rests almost entirely on thevolunteerism and goodwill of
church members.
And so the church is entirelyreliant rather pretty much on

(18:30):
that.
Just going to your analogy thingas well, we just want to touch
upon that.
The church has repeatedly,extensively used analogies, some
very inappropriate ones and someawful ones, like in a lesson I
was in when I was a youth, 16,17, where the seminary teacher
or one of the teachers came intothe class.
It was a mixed class and wastaught about the worth and value

(18:53):
of the soul.
It was actually chastity, thelaw of chastity.
And they had some cupcakes.
And as they handed them out,they kind of...
squeezed the cupcakes, squashedthe cupcakes in front of us and
asked us if we would eat thosecupcakes.
I think I was the only one thatsaid I would because, you know,
I just joined the church and Iwas familiar with sin.

(19:16):
So eating a squashed cupcake, Iwas quite fine with it.
It looked okay to me.
I would have eaten it, butpeople's reaction in the church,
they were like, ooh, that's notprobably a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 (19:29):
I've seen that done with somebody, they lick the
cupcake.

SPEAKER_02 (19:33):
Right.
If a friend or family memberlicked the cupcake, that
wouldn't put me to fault.
I'm probably not the best personto use it that way because I
probably wouldn't eat it.
you know, knowing my background,but most people wouldn't, of
course, because they've gotsome, you know, manners, a
little bit of class about them,which I haven't or didn't have,
maybe I have now.
But the idea that, you know, ifyou make so many bad mistakes

(19:56):
and you end up looking, youknow, like this crushed,
squashed, cupcake.
You know, God doesn't want that.
God won't take that into hisbosom.
And you need to change theproblem with the cupcake,
because you can't make it whole.
You have to throw it in the bin.
So it was a terrible analogy.
But right through to otheranalogies like, you know, the
Mount of the Lord, which I, youknow, is a metaphor for the
temple.

(20:17):
The mediator, which is ananalogy used in general
conference to address andillustrate how a friend can save
someone from justice.
The boat.
We've heard about the boat.
Is it stay in the boat?
Get out the boat?
I can't remember.
Zion.
Ship Zion.
So the safety in the boat, youknow, keep away from it.
That'll protect you from thestorm.

(20:38):
Analogy used to illustrate thatwe should support others who are
struggling.
The airplane.
Elder Uchtdorf talks about hisairplanes quite a bit.
Analogy used to illustrate weshould Focus on what matters the
most and what seems mostimportant at the moment.
Flowers is an obvious one.
Baseball is another one.
Soccer.
I've heard them all.
Some are good.
Some are appropriate.

(20:59):
I'm kind of semi-athletic, sosome of it kind of, you know, I
can relate to.
But other thoughts that came tomind in the very 22nd span of
time when I was listening to youand understanding the topic when
we were at sharing it byMessenger, was that you're

(21:21):
right.
I've never heard a talk, whatyou said earlier, I've never
heard a talk or a lesson oranyone say, you're good enough.
If it's been said, I can'tremember, and that's something,
by the way, you would remember.
You could probably remember on ahand, two hands max in your
life, those talks and lessonsthat have been delivered, maybe

(21:42):
10 if you're lucky.
I mean, if you've been reallylucky, right?
That's the kind of comment Iwould remember.
You know, if someone said you'regood enough or you've reached a
certain level or to quote you,you're on track.
Never heard that.
In business, you know, I'minvolved in business, as you
know, and we have a financialmetrics that we have to deliver.

(22:07):
It's a metrics of six or sevenfinancial metrics um, uh, areas
of performance that we need todeliver profit revenue.
There's two right now, rightthere, uh, billable, uh, you
know, uh, chargeability, uh,utilization.
These are other metrics in thefinancial.
It's important in business, uh,using that as an analogy because

(22:29):
it, you know, measuring thingsnumerically, you can quantify
them numerically and you canmeasure like a realistic, you
know, how well you're doing.
You know, it's easy to measurepositivistic and quantify
numerical elements of something,you know, numbers, financial
things.
And that's what we do inbusiness and in project

(22:51):
management.
In the church, it's difficult.
It's more of a, here's a bigword for you, phenomenological.
Got it?
Yeah, I did my dissertation onphenomenological and positive
exit systems way back.
So I know a little bit aboutthat.
Took me A while to pronounce it,but we got that.
And so difficult to measureunseen things are like feelings

(23:13):
or experiences or spiritualthings.
Has the church measured stufflike that?
I would say the church does notwant to measure phenomenological
things because it wants to havean element of control.
And there's an element, in myopinion, and maybe a little bit
tinted here from my experience,that the church, by not being

(23:34):
definitive and quantifyingthings, an individual's
performance, other than 100% onteaching or visiting teaching,
as they called it, or 100%temple attendance or paying your
tithing, it doesn't want, Idon't believe it wants to, or
it's in its interest to startmeasuring things.
Because if you start measuringthings and you're making, you're

(23:55):
kicking ass, you're makingprogress and you think, hey, I'm
on track to make a successfulkingdom, it doesn't want, I
don't think it wants that.
I really don't.
I think it wants to keep it justoutside of your reach.
because it wants to keep thatelement of control and uses the
scriptures and other analogiesjust to keep that metric, that

(24:16):
limit, just beyond, just outsideof your reach.
So you're always continuously ina status of striving.
You never get there.
You never arrive.
You're always on the journey.
And I think there's an elementof the church...
that actually quite likes thatand uses that to the advantage.

(24:39):
And the reason why I say that isthat, my other notes here, if
you give the church all of thetime, it will take it and then
some.
And I know quite a bit aboutthat, probably more than some,
only because I've received thesecallings, which I didn't ask
for, by the way, and didn'twant, calling of a bishop, and I
could have thrown him everysingle minute, and I'm not

(24:59):
kidding here, into that calling,and he would have absorbed every
personal call and professionalhour and minute in my life.
I kid you not.
And the same for the statepresidency, which is more
spiritual than administrativeand functional.
The state presidency, I say, ismore administrative, functional,
and then a little bit morespiritual.

(25:20):
And again, the state presidencycalling, certainly the state
president calling, will absorband take every second, I kid you
not, of your time.
And even then, it will take moreAnd even then in your
stewardship interviews with thegeneral authorities, you're
still not doing enough.
That's been my experience.
So in my callings, when I've hadto meet with the bishop, I'd

(25:44):
report and ask him how I'mdoing.
There's always a doing well butcould do better response.
That's been my line.
Now, I tried to break that.
In fact, I did break that.
When people came to me as thebishop and on the state
presidency, I would say, and bythis is not, just me, there are
quite a few people in the churchthat do this.

(26:06):
So I'm not trying to blow atrumpet, you know, like Moroni,
nothing like that.
All I'm trying to say is thatjust being a regular leader,
just being ordinary, just beingyourself, being honest, and
seeing in a somewhat moreintimate level in regards to how
people serve, you know, from abishop's perspective and state
presidency, and seeing theextraordinary lengths, Jim, and

(26:28):
sacrifices, and hours and hoursand preparation and a strive for
perfection that some of theseindividuals have.
And certainly I've seen in manyof the sisters where they put so
much in, often at the cost oftheir own family.
And I also include fathers andhusbands where they've put the
church first and they've missedout on personal time with their

(26:52):
kids or their wife or theirhusband.
And this husband and wife havesupported them because it's the
church and the church comesfirst.
And no matter...
how many hours you put in, itdoesn't matter.
It all counts as blessings.
And like a credit score, like afinancial credit score towards
your celestial status or status,you know, adding up the points.

(27:17):
And as I've been saying, it alladds up the points.
And so the church will takeeverything it can from you in
terms of service and It's often,not always, but often keeps the
goal just in sight, but slightlyout of reach.
I'll repeat that.

(27:38):
In sight, in close proximity,but slightly out of reach.
So your fingertips are there, oryou're a few feet away, it's
there, you can see it, and youmove, and then it moves.
It's like a moving target.
And I also want to highlightagain that there are leaders
that that have met with membersand leaders who do advise

(28:00):
members that they are goodenough, that they won't achieve
perfection in this life.
You'll only achieve it in thenext life if that, if at all.
That we do the best that we can.
Just be the best.
Be yourself.
Be authentic self.
And God will make up for therest.
And so there are some of mythoughts that I have in response
to what you're saying.

(28:21):
Some other thoughts as well,real quick here.
The temple...
also supports the need to strivefor perfection.
You're always taught in thetemple that, you know, there are
three kingdoms.
There's a celestial kingdom.
There's three kingdoms withinthe celestial kingdom, three
levels.
And in order to achieve that,you've got to reach a metric,
you know, be married for timeand all eternity, full tithe

(28:42):
payer, obedient, et cetera, livewith exactness.
Some of the motivations behind,you know, commitment and service
to the church and striving to bebe the best and do the best and
get into the kingdom and tryingto reach that goal include, not

(29:04):
in order, but they're reallyimportant and real motivators.
One is fear.
You talked about fear.
Some people are afraid that ifthey don't do enough, they're
not going to make it, not goingto be with the loved ones.
The seal to the loved ones, ifthey don't strive hard enough,
they're not going to be with theloved ones.
Other ones is guilt.
And that's been a factor that'sdriven me no longer.
I don't feel...
I don't feel that guilt anymore.

(29:25):
Guilt used to crush me.
I remember, by the way, thefirst month on the mission,
before you got there, this wasFebruary, March 1987.
We had nine baptisms.
Nine.
152 missionaries, nine baptisms.
I think it was March 87.
President Dunn railed on us,before Banks, railed on us, and

(29:45):
told us, I'm into the mission bysix weeks.
Working my ass off with ElderRockwood, who was...
an absolute machine, a machine.
I shared some stories about himearlier.
He's a great guy, but did notstop working even on P-days.
We worked to death.
And notwithstanding, we stillonly had nine backers.

(30:08):
And President Dunn said to us,it's because of our worthiness
that we were not, because of ournot living with exactness, end
quote, that we weren't worthy,that some of the missionaries
were being disobedient.
And yes, it was blunt.
Some of them were masturbating.
He used the word masturbating?
He did.
He did.
Because some of them weremasturbating and not following,

(30:30):
living with exactness, livingwith obedience.
That's the reason why the Lordonly afforded us nine baptisms
that month.
And I'm shocked because I'mthinking, I can't do anything
else.
I'm teaching with the Spirit.
I'm running back to theapartment.
I'm working through my lunchhour.
I'm walking around with asandwich.

(30:51):
I'm working half my PDs, whichyou're not supposed to do, by
the way.
I am working my ass off.
I was an obedient missionary.
I worked hard, right?
And you know that.
You and I served together.
You and I worked so hard, andyet we didn't succeed much in
baptisms.
That was a metric.

(31:11):
And it was because I was toldthat I wasn't worthy enough.
Other motivators are control,position.
Some people do things forposition.
And the ultimate one, though, ofcourse, was to be motivated and
achieve and strive forperfection because of love.
And I think that also is quitedangerous because if you go to

(31:35):
that level where you're doinganything for love, And you're
not questioning anything.
You've lost your critical mind.
Your church broke.
If a general authority says, dothat.
And in your mind, it's becauseif you do it, you're showing
love.
That takes over every fiber ofyour being.

(31:58):
Every aspect of the soul.
It owns you.
If you are doing things out oflove in your mind, you don't
question things.
You're not critical to thinking.
You'll do anything.
It becomes blind faith, blindlove.
and it's extremely dangerous.
So, yeah, I think the church hasthe responsibility and the

(32:19):
opportunity to address this, tohave a real honest conversation
about this, and it doesn't, andit doesn't for a reason.
I've talked about control,keeping things just in sight but
out of reach, relying on itsmembers.
It can't...
unleash or um uh what's the wordit can't um release or unchain

(32:45):
is the word i'm gonna go unchainits members from the things that
motivate members that drive thechurch forward and and so i'm
very grateful you've you'veselected this topic this week i
think it's so important but ialso think it's so dangerous
because just to close mycomments here on this part of

(33:05):
the conversation I've lostcount, Jim, how many times I've
had members in my office who areheartbroken, who are devastated
because they've lived or theythought they've lived with
exactness.
They've served with love.
They've given everything andmore.
And one member of the family hasgone inactive or someone's died

(33:25):
in their family or they've losta job or they're in debt or they
feel guilty because they're notgood enough.
They just don't quite feel goodenough.
And this affects theirself-esteem and their
self-worth.
And then we go into situationswhere people need mental health
counseling because they don'tfeel good enough.
And I've had to deal with thatas well because the bar is set
so high, they don't feel theycan reach it.

(33:48):
It's never attainable.
And I think that's verydangerous and it can result in
suicide and the extreme.
We know that.
I know a number of people whohave committed suicide and
learned from their spouses thatthey just didn't feel good
enough.
They felt guilty becausesomething they were doing or not
doing, and it just consumed themand it just took over their

(34:10):
lives.
And you and I, we know peoplewhere that, you know, those
feelings and those very darkthoughts have affected that
individual to the point wherethey've lost their ability to
see things in perspective.
So I'm so grateful that you'veselected this.
It's so important, so timely.

(34:31):
Any time to talk about this is agood time.
And I hope that the leaders thatare listening to this, I like to
think that some of them do, thatthey will address this and get
that balance just right.
Yes, work hard, but berealistic.
And also say to people thatyou're doing great.
Isn't it a good feeling whensomeone says, look, you're good

(34:51):
enough.
You're doing really well.
Well done.
No, we're talking about welldone, that good and faithful
servant.
They talk about that in theafterlife, by the way.
I mean, do you remember that?
They don't talk about it in thislife.
The funerals, and when someone'spassed away, they always quote
the scripture, well done, thougood and faithful servant.
They don't talk about it whenyou're alive.

(35:11):
They're talking about it whenyou're dead.
So anyway, I have strongfeelings on this, as you can
tell.
I'll hand the time back over toyou.
There are

SPEAKER_01 (35:21):
my thoughts.
They're good thoughts.
And I just need to correct atone point where I said I
remember that.
I was not on my mission in March1987, but I remember a month,
and I'm thinking it's in 1988,that we only had nine baptisms.
And I remember President Banks,who was far gentler than

(35:43):
President Dunn, still railing onus.
It was in the middle of the,remember the Together Forever
video and tapes?
I do.
The church bought newspaper adsin major newspapers all
throughout Scotland and said,call this number and get a free

(36:07):
tape.
And President Banks said, rightafter that, nobody called.
It didn't go anywhere.
And President Banks blamed us.
He says, you were all hopingthis would all be manna from
heaven.
And so you just stopped working.
And I went, well, no, I didn'tstop worshiping.

(36:29):
How can I stop working?
I'm going to go to hell if Istop working.
You know, that whole guilt andfear thing was all there.
But yeah, the blame was on us.
Also, at one point, we made acovenant.
I think it was framed as acovenant with the Lord.

(36:50):
It was SEM 40.
Do you remember SEM 40?
I do.
We made a covenant.
40 baptisms in one month.
And this was several months inadvance.
And we promised that if we dothis, we, you know, we are going
to bind the Lord because thedoctrine and covenant says, I,
the Lord, am bound when you dowhat I say.
But if you do not what I say, yehave no promise.

SPEAKER_02 (37:13):
I

SPEAKER_01 (37:13):
remember

SPEAKER_02 (37:13):
that campaign very clearly.
Yep.

SPEAKER_01 (37:16):
And do you remember what happened?

SPEAKER_02 (37:19):
I remember you were in, we're in the same zone
together in Manasseh.
And I think, if I'm notmistaken, we achieved our, in
our zone, we achieved ournumber.
We ended up going down to themission home to watch a video.
Ben-Hur.
Neil.
Ben-Hur.
Mike, can you believe that?
Ben-Hur.

(37:41):
Holy frick.
I mean, Ben-Hur.
It could have been Star Wars orsomething, but it can't even
give us a decent movie.

SPEAKER_01 (37:48):
I have great affection for Charlton Heston,
so I didn't mind.

SPEAKER_02 (37:52):
Oh, yeah.
To me, it was just give me abreak from religion.
Remember, I'm the non-classyconvert to the church.
I would have loved Star Wars.
When I heard Ben, yeah, Ithought it was a load of crap.
I thought I'd been scammed.
But anyway, I didn't questionit.
I kept my thoughts to myself,went down there, had a meal, and
watched Ben flipping her.

SPEAKER_01 (38:14):
Well...
Yeah, that's all right.

SPEAKER_00 (38:17):
It's okay.
It's all right.

SPEAKER_01 (38:19):
Mission-wide, we fell short.
We didn't get 40 baptisms.
I think we barely got 30baptisms.

SPEAKER_02 (38:27):
You're right.
We made it as a zone.
I remember because going downwith you, I think, but we didn't
make it as a mission for sure.
Correct.

SPEAKER_01 (38:33):
Yeah.
And so the sense was, I think wewere a little bit inoculated
from that because we were thetop baptizing zone.
But we, I mean, the kind ofguilt, again, that was sort of
heaped on us because we just,clearly the Lord didn't fall

(38:57):
short, so it must have been us.
We stopped

SPEAKER_02 (39:01):
masturbating that month.

SPEAKER_01 (39:03):
I'm not going there.
I'm not going there at all.

SPEAKER_02 (39:09):
That's thrown you a little bit, hasn't it?
It's

SPEAKER_01 (39:11):
thrown me a little bit, but So the whole idea, this
whole idea in the church, as youwere talking, I started thinking
about one of the things thatyou've said on a number of
occasions is that when you leftthe church, you received a
letter saying, okay, yourrecords are gone.
You're not a member anymore.

(39:33):
And the letter didn't sayanything about thank you for
your service or anything.
You know, we so appreciate andoh, we'll miss you.
And I mean, none of that.
And so what it meant essentiallywas that everything you had done
up to that point, all of thattime that had been committed to

(39:53):
building the kingdom andcommitted to helping the church,
the church, it didn't happen.
It didn't exist.
It had no value whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02 (40:04):
It never, all is to find done.
All the stuff I've done, all thetime, all the effort, all the
sacrifice, all the hours awayfrom my family.
And I'm not trying to play theviolin here.
That never happened.

SPEAKER_01 (40:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (40:19):
In the churches.

SPEAKER_01 (40:20):
Well, it's not.
And you compare that, forinstance, to people who conclude
their military service.
And they are constantly praised,rightfully so.
People thank them for theirservice.
They're asked to stand atsporting events and let's

(40:40):
acknowledge all of our veterans.
And these are people who are notactively serving in the military
now, but the service that theygave still has value, is still
worthy of respect.
And that is not the case in thechurch.
If you live an entirely faithfullife, And then at the age of 85,

(41:01):
decide, oh, you know what?
I have some problems with thechurch and you step away.
It's as if you had never been amember of the church.
It's as if that entire lifetimeof service is just flushed down
the memory hole, just didn'thappen, just didn't matter.
And, you know, I was thinkingabout this to some degree.

(41:21):
This last weekend, I was up inPort Angeles, Washington, which
is where my wife grew up, andit's where my father-in-law was
just buried after a long battlewith Parkinson's disease.
He passed away, and we went upto his funeral.

(41:43):
And some of the most spiritualchurch meetings, if not the most
spiritual church meetings, thatI've ever experienced have all
been funerals.
Because it's at a funeral whenyou take stock of an entire

(42:06):
person's life.
And there were plenty of thingssaid at this funeral about how
Richard Sidwell has lived a goodlife and is on his way to the
celestial kingdom and is goingto be reunited with his with his
wife.
And, you know, all of a suddenit's okay.

(42:29):
Yes, he's arrived.
He's done enough.
And maybe that's one of thereasons why they're so
satisfying is that there isn'tany room for the kind of guilt
and fear because he's done, youknow, his mortal journey is

(42:50):
over.
And so we, we, um, We now assignhim, essentially, a spot in the
celestial kingdom and say, he'sdone enough.
I have never been to a funeral,even somebody who has not
necessarily lived the kind ofexemplary life that would get

(43:11):
them any sort of praise in thechurch while they were alive.
Those funerals still have thatsame kind of spirit to them
where they say, yes, well,they've done enough and they're
good enough.
And There's something– I'veheard many people say it's too
bad that you have to wait untilyou're dead for people to say

(43:34):
nice things about you.
And I think there's some truthin that.
But I think it's also too badthat you have to wait until
you're dead to have people sayGod accepts your offering.
God accepts who you are.
God accepts what you've done.
You've lived a life.
that god appreciates we don'tever say that when people are

(43:58):
alive unless the one exceptionto that is unless you are a
member of the first presidencyor the quorum of the 12th right
we're willing to praise to highheaven church leaders and sort
of put them on a pedestal andtalk about essentially how
they're perfect or as close toperfect as we can possibly come

(44:21):
but we won't do that for rankand file members of the church
until they die.
And I think more and more, andI've said this kind of thing
many times on this podcast, butmore and more, we're seeing the
fact that the old playbook justdoesn't work anymore because

(44:43):
that kind of guilt, that kind offear, that kind of, if you don't
go on a mission, you're inserious trouble.
If you don't, Get married in thetemple, you're going to fall
short.
The scaremongering, thefearmongering that you need to
make sure that you're cutting itand that you continually reach

(45:05):
for that thing that is just outof reach or you're going to be
sorry.
That kind of fear and guilt justisn't working anymore for the
rising generation.
It just isn't.
They hear that and they go, oh,really?
Well, let's see.

(45:26):
I mean, the numbers that we areseeing of people who are
leaving, particularly people wholeave as soon as they turn 18,
some estimates put it as high as75% of church members, by the
time they reach 18, they'resaying, I'm kind of done.

(45:47):
I'm kind of done being told I'mnot enough.
I'm kind of done being told I'mnot good enough.
I'm done being told that Icontinually fall short no matter
how much I do, no matter howmuch I reach.
And that thing is still just afew feet away.
I'm tired of it.
I'm done with it.
I don't want to do that anymore.

(46:08):
And they step away.
And a lot of them are happierwhen they do that.
And one of the things that I seeonline all the time is, oh,
you've left the church, so youobviously aren't happy and
you're miserable and clearly youdon't even know what happiness
is.
And the people who've leftsaying, what are you talking
about?
I'm happier than I've ever been.
No, no, no, you must be lying.

(46:30):
It's sort of the flip side to,it's kind of the toxic flip side
to this idea of, okay, we wantyou to do better.
And then when somebody says,this isn't working for me, it's,
well, clearly, You're a terribleperson.
Clearly you're miserable.
I mean, you have experiencedthis firsthand.
All the people would have toldyou, you've gone off the rails

(46:51):
and blah, blah, blah, blah.
And you can never be happy.
And it's just the problem withthat is it's just not true.
And if the only thing that wehave to keep people in the
church is the constant fear ofwhat would happen if they
stepped away.

(47:12):
then the church is in serioustrouble because people are
calling that bluff.
People are saying, oh, really?
I'm going to be miserable?
Well, let me see.
And then they leave anddiscover, you know what?
God still loves me.
I'm still capable of happiness.
I'm still capable of having awonderful family.
I'm still capable.

(47:32):
I still have all the goodnessthat the church helped.
And I absolutely believe thechurch helps people.
cultivate that kind of goodnessin their lives.
But when they leave, thatgoodness doesn't just completely
evaporate.
It doesn't belong to the church.
It belongs to the person and theperson keeps it, whether they're

(47:54):
in or out of the church.
And so I guess where I am, I'mcoming down on all this, where I
land on all this is we need tostart preaching a positive
message, a message of Here's notwhat you should be afraid of if

(48:16):
you leave, but what joy andbeauty and wonder are there for
you if you stay.
People talk about in businessthe carrot and the stick.
You can move forward with acarrot, dangling a carrot in
front of the horse, or with astick hitting the horse in the

(48:36):
behind over and over again.
And we have relied so much onthe stick.
that I'm not even sure what thecarrots are anymore in terms of,
geesh, this is something I can'taccess outside the church.
And the reality is that peoplecan find happiness outside the

(49:00):
church and we need to stopdemonizing them for doing that.
And we need to emphasize, okay,here's all the great things that
you have when you are in thechurch.
Here's all the wonderful senseof community, the wonderful
collective spiritual growth asyou help each other and you
build up each other, the realitythat you know you have, that the

(49:22):
church has your back, which isan experience that I've had time
and again.
And apparently there are peoplewho just don't believe that's
enough.
It somehow has to be exclusive.
It has to be, and nobody elsewould ever have your back if you
left the church.
And there's no other possibleway you could find community if
you left the church.

(49:44):
We just need to let that go.
And I think people are terrifiedof doing that because they
think, well, then why willpeople keep going to church?
And if fear is the only thingkeeping people going to church,
then we have to repent as achurch and find ways that the
restored gospel of Jesus Christitself is enough.

(50:05):
Not the fear of punishment, notthe fear of condemnation, but
just the joy that comes fromembracing the principles of the
gospel.
That is enough.
And if people make a differentchoice, that is their choice.
And condemning them and fearingthem and othering them is not

(50:25):
something we ought to be engagedin doing.
And that seems to be somethingthat we're doing more and more
and more.
And it just makes me sad.
I want to see that change.
I want to be able to go tochurch because I want to go to
church and love to go to churchand experience the blessings
that come from worshiping withother believers, not because I'm

(50:49):
terrified of what might happenif I don't.
Does that make sense?
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 (50:54):
Absolutely.
I'm listening with greatinterest and intent.
You make some really powerfulpoints.
As I'm listening to you, my mindcatches hold of the talk that
Elder Ballard gave in 2016titled, To Whom Shall We Go?
You know, you're talking aboutthe carrot, right?
We're talking about the churchusing guilt and fear, you know,
to motivate us because there'ssome real truth to that.

(51:17):
It might sound like me, who'soutside the church, as being
negative against the churchagain, but The truth is, the
reality is that the churchknows, it's in the guilt
business, in my opinion.
It knows how to use guilt andfear to motivate and change
behavior in the church.
It really does.
The evidence is prettyoverwhelming, pretty compelling.

(51:40):
I'm not saying it does that allthe time.
It doesn't.
There are great leaders in thechurch that Do what we said
earlier.
I want to highlight this again,where they meet with members or
leaders and they say to them,you know, they remind the
members or the leaders that youare good enough.
You're doing great.
Well done.
You're on track.
And they focus on the positive.
And those conversations dohappen and they happen often,

(52:03):
but not enough.
The pulpit there with EllaBallard gave that talk, which is
quite interesting.
foreboding, I think, and alittle bit threatening,
depending on your perspective,even implying that if you don't
serve 100% here in the church,well, that's a problem in

(52:23):
itself.
We can change you, et cetera.
And if you decide to leave,where will you go?
He says here, if any of you isfaltering in your faith,
including people like feelingguilty, not good enough,
repenting, but not feelingforgiven, We've not mentioned
that in this comment, in ourconversation here, where people
actually repent, like just fastconstantly, sacrifice, repent,

(52:50):
repent, repent, because theyfeel so bad about something, and
yet they don't feel thatforgiveness.
But it says here, if any of youis faltering in your faith, I
ask you the same question thatPeter asked, to whom shall you
go?
If you choose to become inactiveor to leave the restored church
of Jesus Christ of Latin saints,where will you go?
What will you do?
A decision to walk no more withchurch members and with the

(53:12):
Lord's leaders will have along-term impact that cannot
always be seen right now.
Depending on your perspective,that can be interpreted as being
threatening, using guilt, usingfear.
Basically, you're not going toget to where you need to be.
You're not going to get back toGod without us.
You need us.
So you just get your head down,muck in, follow the rules.

(53:37):
Be the best, do better, bebetter.
You're not quite good enoughright now, but even if,
regardless, you can't goanywhere.
The second thing I want to justcomment on as well, I don't
think this mindset in the churchhas always been like that, Jim.
And so to counter this culturein the church of this culture of

(54:01):
guilt and fear and not quitegood enough, in April...
On April 3rd, 1836, according toTruman Madsen, the tapes that I
used to listen to and try tospeak like Truman Madsen on the
doorsteps there for extraspirituality and extra baptisms,
which never worked, by the way,and only did that on a few

(54:22):
doors.
Jesus Christ accepted theKirtland Temple in Ohio as his
house, according to the Churchof Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints.
The event occurred during avision to Joseph Smith and
Oliver Cowdery.
Now, there's actually ahalf-hour tape discussion from
Truman Madsen, and he taught, Iremember it, I've not heard it

(54:45):
for years and years, but Iremember Truman Madsen saying
that Joseph Smith had thisvision that the Lord had
finally, finally accepted theKirtland Temple and accepted,
and I remember this is on thetape, accepted all the effort
and the sacrifice, physical,emotional, psychological,
spiritual sacrifice that thesaints had invested into

(55:06):
building that temple, includingbut not limited to Joseph
Smith's effort and leadership.
And Joseph also saw that as anacknowledgement that the Lord
had accepted him, quote,personally as his prophet on the
earth.
I remember those words.
I'm close to quoting, I know Iam.
It was an important vision andexperience for Joseph Smith as

(55:29):
he reported it.
And he also tied that to a levelof forgiveness from the mistakes
that he'd made previously,different mistakes as a prophet,
that the Lord had accepted hiswork, him as a prophet, the
saints, and that the KirtlandTemple was a manifestation that
the saints had done well.

(55:50):
Well done, thou good andfaithful saint, saints.
Thou hast done well.
And the temple was a physicalmanifestation of the great
outpouring of sacrifice andeffort and physical labor and
financial labor and loss thatthe members had experienced in
building that Kirtland Temple.

(56:12):
I remember that on the Trumantapes.
I don't think that's an isolatedcase.
I do believe that historicallythere has been moments where the
church has done well, theleaders have said so, they've
made a lot of progress, andthey've acknowledged people for
their progress in this life.
But I think the church has, it'sa very different church to when

(56:33):
Joe Smith was around, as youknow.
I don't know if you wouldrecognize it today.
But the church has got animbalance between guilt and fear
and pressure and not enough on,to your point, promoting and
extolling the positive aspectsof the church in regards to

(56:57):
teaching, reminding members thatthey're just wonderful.
And let's face it, the strengthof the church almost entirely is
in the strength of its members.
We've said this repeatedly, whenthe church allows its members to
serve naturally, freely, withlove, without constraint,
without measurements, withoutthose ties, without the fear and

(57:20):
the guilt, oh boy, there's noother organization on this
planet that can serve with loveon this planet like members of
the church.
I know that.
I'm not even in the church.
You know that because you're inthe church and you've
experienced this as much as, ifnot more than I have, right?
I think the church leaders holdit back.

(57:41):
They've got the reins on thecontrols, like using analogy, on
the horses and they'reconstraining it and limiting the
church members.
Let the members go for it.
It's that talk that we heard,isn't it?
Here's the problem with thechurch.
If you let the members serve asthey please, then do they need
the church, right?

(58:02):
If they serve with completeopenness and freeness and spirit
and following the spirit,wherever the spirit takes them,
and they don't need programs orthis or that or these controls
or that particular thing to bemeasured by, and they're
constrained, if they'reunshackled, then the church

(58:22):
doesn't have the control.
You unshackle a horse, it's freeto do what it will, right?
And so the church won't ever dothat, sadly, in my opinion.
It will never unshackle itsmembers.
It will always have a system offear and guilt.
I don't see it changing.
I don't think the church will,even if they hear these
comments, I don't think theywill do anything about them

(58:45):
because it doesn't want to losecontrol.
And it also, as members say,highlight the situations where
people leave and their lives goup the rail, what do they say?
They say, well, look, I told youso.
This is what happens when youleave, quote, the safety and

(59:05):
security of the gospel.
That's the message.
That's the tone.
That's the reminder that you'llfail without the church.
You're nothing without thechurch.
You'll fail.
You're not good enough with thechurch.
Then you can be all these greatthings.
And that's the hold that it hason the members.
I don't accept it anymore.
I don't believe that.
I don't have the guilt that Iused to have.

(59:26):
You know, I beat myself up todeath, you know, over missing
the most.
I slept in twice on the mission.
I felt awful.
A companion made me feel likeshit.
I felt like crap.
And I carried that with me for afull day.
And I vowed never to sleep inagain.

(59:46):
I slept in one of the time.
That wasn't my fault.
but still felt guilty.
So I don't know.
I just don't see the church.
I think it's great to have thisconversation.
I'm hopeful, positive.
I think the church willreference it, not this
conversation, will referencesome of the positive things that
the church members do and mayreference it that you're doing

(01:00:09):
well, but it won't go beyondthat because it needs to
maintain a level of control.
And so that's, you know, they'remy, concluding comments or
remarks at this stage.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:20):
Well, I appreciate that.
As I listen to you and you say,I don't think the church is ever
going to change on this, I'mreminded of...
I'm not sure who said it.
My father used to quote it alot, but I don't think he's the
first person to say it.
What he would say is, thingsthat can't go on forever stop.

(01:00:44):
They eventually stop.
And I don't think the kind ofguilt and fear that is being
used to try and keep people inthe boat, it's not working.
It can't go on forever.
So eventually it's going to haveto stop.
We're going to have to findanother way.
And I think the good news isthat there is another way, that

(01:01:06):
there are wonderful positivesabout the church that can be
used to help build people, notscare them.
to help support them, you know,not keep them unsettled out of
fear and terror that one falsestep and it's all over for them.
And they're just another crushedor licked cupcake.

(01:01:30):
But the other thing is that aswe talk about this, I am mindful
of the people who listen tothis, who are a wonderful
audience out there that listensto these podcasts.
Because what I am discovering isthat a lot of these people are
in what I now sort of call theborderlands of the church.

(01:01:55):
There are people who are on theedge of the inside, or there are
people who have left but stillhave connections to the church.
There are people on the bordersof the church, no matter which
side they're on.
And I think very often there arepeople who have dealt with this
firsthand.
in very painful and profoundways.

(01:02:17):
And I want to say to them, Ithink you're good enough.
I think you're wonderful.
I think the fact that you stillchoose to engage with the
church, however you choose toengage with it, even if it
doesn't mean that you'reengaging as a fully active
member, the fact that you stillcare, the fact that you're still

(01:02:41):
interested, the fact that youstill have some kind of
connection, I think it speakswell for you.
I think it means that there issomething good and decent and
wonderful about what you aredoing and how you are choosing
to live your life.
So you may not ever hear it froma general authority or an

(01:03:02):
apostle or a prophet.
You may not hear it from yourbishop if you go to church.
But I think you're wonderful.
I think you're good enough.
And more importantly, I thinkyour heavenly father believes
you're good enough.
I truly believe that God lovesall of his children and that it

(01:03:27):
doesn't mean, that doesn't meanthat you can just sit and eat
bonbons all day.
But I don't think anybody doesthat.
That's the thing.
is that I think everybody, Ihave yet to meet, I remember
talking to somebody who phrasedit this way, I have yet to meet
a lazy person.

(01:03:49):
I meet people who are misguided,who focus their attention on
things maybe they shouldn't, or,you know, you could describe it,
but people pursue a course thattries to bring them happiness
and that tries to bring themjoy.
And sometimes that course isn'tin the church.

(01:04:11):
But whatever it is, whoever youare, God loves you.
He loves you as much as he lovesRussell M.
Nelson.
He loves you as much as he'sloved anybody that has ever
walked the face of this earth.
You are as much a child of Godas anyone else who has ever
lived.
That, I think, is one of thecentral, most powerful messages

(01:04:32):
of the church, is that we reallyare.
We are all children of God.
We all have that divine spark.
And leaning into that positive,wonderful message, I think, is
the way the church goes forward,is the way the church grows,
that the church grows on aculture of love and embracing

(01:04:54):
the innate, central worth ofevery child of God.
And that we leave fear behind.
And I don't know when it willhappen or how it will happen,
but I am confident that it will.
So those are my concludingthoughts.
Do you want to issue a quickrebuttal before we wrap up?

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:15):
Other than to say I cannot improve upon what you've
just said.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:18):
Well, thank you very much.
And you have said many profoundthings here that I think are
going to resonate with manypeople who are listening because
they resonated with me.
And hopefully going forward, wecan help to build this kind of
positive, affirming faith andleave the fear behind.

(01:05:41):
So with that, we concludeanother episode of Inside Out.
Thank you very much for joiningus, and we hope you will join us
next time.
And thank you very much, Ian.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:51):
Thank you, Hugh, Jim.