Your Little Factory

Ian and Jim discuss Elder Boyd K. Packer's infamous "To Young Men Only" pamphlet. 

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside

(00:17):
Out.
I'm Ian Wilkes and I'm here withmy most handsome partner, Mr.
Jim Bennett.

SPEAKER_00 (00:25):
Hello, Jim.
Hello, Ian Wilkes.
They don't recognize the ironyof you calling me handsome right
now because my hair is ratheraskew, which is making me happy
that this is an audio podcastand not a video podcast.

SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
To our listeners and any new listeners that have
joined us, we're really excitedto have you spend this time with
us today because we have what Ithink at least is Probably one
of the most, if not the most,weirdest, wackiest, strangest,
unusual, in some ways funny, inother ways dangerous,
multifaceted, multilayeredconversation on this podcast.

(01:05):
Today we are going to bediscussing an interesting talk
that was made into a pamphlet ora leaflet.
And the title of that is ToYoung Men Only.
I repeat, To Young Men Only.
And this was a talk and apamphlet created or developed by

(01:31):
comments by Boykate Packer.
And it was comments given in anaddress at the priesthood
session of General Conference onOctober 2nd, 1976.
And it's Extraordinary.
And we want to share this withyou.
In the opening comment, in termsof framing it and providing some

(01:53):
context, it deals with sexualhealth.
I think there's an element ofmental health for sure.
I think the intent behind thistalk is good, Jim.
I think Elder Packer meant well.
There are some elements that Ithink are quite dangerous.
Some of the elements are quitefunny.
It covers virtually everyemotion, or most emotions, some

(02:15):
that our listeners might noteven be expecting.
And it deals with, as I say, itdeals with sexual health.
And again, as a precursor intoour conversation, I put in the
subject from this talk, which Ithink many of our listeners and

(02:36):
certainly ourselves willinterpret as the issues of
related to masturbation.
And I also want to say this aswell.
This is an interestingconversation from my
perspective, because if I goback in time, you know, I'm a
very conservative, reservedperson in certain aspects.
And I've never talked aboutthese things openly.

(02:59):
You know, if anything aboutmasturbation or sexuality or
sexual health has come up, it'salways been with the bishop, you
know, in a office in private.
that a lot of people, I think,like me, are very conservative,
or used to be conservative, orquite conservative, who don't
talk about these things.
There's a history with thechurch and many of the members

(03:21):
in the culture that to talkabout such things openly is a
taboo.
We don't talk about this stuffopenly.
We certainly don't talk about iton a podcast.
You know, looking at it, if I goback in time and someone said to
me, you'd be talking about thesubject of masturbation on a
podcast where everyone can hearit.

(03:43):
There's no way I believe that.
So it deals with so manydifferent aspects of sexual
health, mental health.
The pamphlet, although itdoesn't mention the word
masturbation, it's clear in mymind at least that that's what
it's talking about.
And so what I use in mybusiness, I use a number of AI

(04:03):
tools.
some are for more general AI,others are more specific
industry-related.
And I put in, you know, ismasturbation normal and healthy
in one of these general AItools?
And this is what it came upwith.
This is what the response waspretty quickly, is of course,
because AI.
And I thought this explanationand this description was pretty,

(04:27):
sounds pretty balanced to me.
So the question was, in the AItool, is masturbation healthy?
Is it normal?
And it says here, yes,masturbation is a normal and
healthy part of human sexuality.
It's a way to explore your body,experience pleasure, and release
sexual tension.
And there's some interestingpoints that we want to talk

(04:48):
about, about the subject ofpleasure.
Because in the church, there arecertain elements in the church
that, in the past, people, theway they used to think, that sex
is not for pleasure, it's forpleasure.
making babies for havingchildren.
We'll get into that a bit later.
It goes on to say, there aremany potential benefits to
masturbation, both physical andmental.

(05:11):
These can include stress relief.
Masturbation can help to releaseendorphins, which have mood
boosting and stress reducingeffects.
Improved sleep, the relaxationthat comes with orgasm, can make
it easier to fall asleep.
Increased body awareness.
Masturbation can help you learnmore about your body and what
you find pleasurable.

(05:32):
Healthy sexual development is anormal part of sexual
development and can helpindividuals understand their own
sexuality.
Safe sexual expression.
It's a safe way to experiencesexual pleasure without the risk
of pregnancy or sexuallytransmitted diseases or
infections.
It's important to remember thateveryone's experience with
masturbation is different.

(05:53):
There's no right or wrong way todo it.
And there's no set number oftimes you should or shouldn't
masturbate.
It's all about what feels goodto you.
If you have questions aboutmasturbation, it's always a good
idea to talk to a healthcareprofessional or a trusted adult.
They can provide you withaccurate information and answer
any questions you may have.
And just one final thought herebefore we open this up for this

(06:16):
conversation, because I think wealso have a time to review the
pamphlet, the talk Elder Packergave in quite a bit of detail.
You know, as a father...
And the pamphlet references isactually the role of the father
in having a conversation aboutsexual habits and activity and
masturbation, references a fewtimes in the pamphlet between

(06:40):
the conversation of father andthe children, et cetera, the
sons specifically.
And as a father, this issomething that I have needed and
wanted to do with my own sons.
And in the past, if I'd havefollowed the church, I think
those conversations would havebeen very difficult in regards

(07:04):
to the advice that I would havegiven them if I remained active
in the church, because thechurch holds a certain position,
a very entrenched position onthis, and there's certain things
that, advice that you pass on toyour kids that the church would
support, and there's otheradvice, like what I've just
read, I don't think the churchwould support.
The church doesn't want anyoneto be masturbating in the church

(07:29):
at all, anytime it considers ita sin.
We'll get into that as well.
So without further ado, Jim,you're familiar with this
pamphlet.
The pamphlet, interestingly,although it's addressed to the
priesthood, the PriesthoodSession General Conference,

(07:52):
titled to you men only, it has aa nickname, I think it's a
nickname, and it's often oraffectionately called the
pamphlet of the little factoryor the little factory.
Can you tell us why?
And then lead us into thecomments, the remarks, all the
packet and share your storiesand versions as in why you feel

(08:17):
you need to.

SPEAKER_00 (08:18):
We're going to start because you would suggest that
we talk about this.
And you've given us, I think, avery thoughtful introduction
that lays out the issues andgives us sort of an academic
perspective.
And it is very difficult for meto talk about this without
getting almost excruciatinglypersonal.

(08:42):
I would say there is no generalconference talk ever given that
has had a greater impact on mylife than than this one.
And it has not been a positiveimpact in any way.
It has done tremendous damage tome individually, and I think

(09:03):
it's done tremendous damage topeople all throughout the
church.
And what's interesting about it,I'm skipping ahead, but the
church now has essentiallyflushed this pamphlet down the
memory hole This was aconference talk given by Elder

(09:27):
Boyd K.
Packer in the October 1976General Conference.
If you were to go to thechurch's website and try to pull
that talk up off of the website,you won't find it.
The church has just quietlyremoved it.
Apparently, the video is stillthere.
You can find the video of thetalk, but the transcription of

(09:48):
the talk, the listing of thetalk in the table of contents,
it's no longer there.
It's gone.
You would presume that Boyd K.
Packer sat the October 1976general conference out.
And the pamphlet is obviously nolonger produced by the church.
And furthermore, the whole ideaof masturbation in the church

(10:13):
has undergone a very quiet andvery, I don't want to say
controversial, contradictoryapproach.
kind of renaissance because youare correct.
The church still, but you saidthe church considers
masturbation to be a sim.

(10:33):
And I think that is stillcorrect.
However, I know it's correctbecause do you know who Natasha
Helfer is?
Does that name mean anything toyou?
No.
Natasha Helfer is a, she's atherapist.
and a former member of thechurch, and she had publicly

(10:54):
stated that masturbation,essentially things that the AI
wrote that you read, wasessentially Natasha Helfer's,
Dr.
Helfer's position, which is thatmasturbation is normal and it is
healthy and the church is wrongto condemn it.
And that was front and center inher church court, and she was

(11:15):
eventually excommunicated forit.
But that said...
I know of several bishops.
I think I've even said this onthis podcast before.
I know of several bishops whohave received instruction, one
who received instructiondirectly from a general

(11:35):
authority.
And the instruction was, thereis no ecclesiastical consequence
for masturbation.
That's different from sayingmasturbation is okay.
That's certainly different fromencouraging masturbation, which
the church has not done andseems likely never will do.

(11:58):
But they said it used to be thatI know of several people who
have been told that they had towait a year before going on a
mission until they no longermasturbated, that they couldn't
have masturbated for a year orthey couldn't go on a mission.
I know of people who have beendenied temple recommends because

(12:20):
they masturbate.
I know of legions of people whohave been denied the sacrament
because they masturbate.
When you were a bishop or whenyou were a state president, did
that ever happen?
Did you ever deny the sacramentor have anybody deny the
sacrament or tell someone theycouldn't go on?

(12:42):
No.
No, again,

SPEAKER_01 (12:44):
my background is very different.
I joined the church at 16.
And, you know, before 16,masturbation was quite normal, I
think, for everybody.
I think they talked about it insex ed at school going back.
And I think it was kind ofnormal back then, you know, in
England, going back a bit.
When young men came to me andasked those general questions, I

(13:07):
never asked them specifically,are you masturbating?
It's normal.
business, right?
I just said, is there anythingrelated to any sexuality or any
issues that they were talkingabout in that area?
And they said, it's okay if youdon't.
It's very private, verypersonal.
I have no memories of gettinginto any of those conversations.

(13:28):
But the young men thing, I justdidn't get into that.
I didn't feel comfortabletalking about that with a young
man.
It just was an area that...
And by the way, there's notraining.
No one gave me any training forthis stuff.
This is...
Imagine talking about thisstuff, how personal and private
this is.
I mean, I shared earlier thatfor me, this is, you know, I
never would talk about thisstuff ever.

(13:48):
And I wouldn't want to put thaton anyone.
So me, it was, I have nomemories of getting into those
detailed conversations or any ofthose conversations, but really
with young men and youth, otherthan just asking her whatever
that general question was andprobably changing the question
really to make them feelcomfortable.
I just didn't, It just neverfelt right to me.

(14:08):
The thing is, I was a bishopthat didn't follow all the
rules, Jim.
So I wasn't a by-the-book kindof guy, right?
And I just went on, you know,not just the right thing to do,
what's the best thing to do?
I don't want the individualyoung man, young woman feeling
uncomfortable.
And I just didn't think it wasappropriate.
So with adults, yes.

(14:28):
You know, adults who have gotissues with masturbation, and I
didn't stop them having thesacrament.
My advice was, look, Just, itwas simple.
Just stop it or try not to doit.
You know, I'm not, I'm not, Iwasn't a bishop that punished
people.
I only, the worst I ever did wasdisfellowship somebody or
something, you know, that wasquite, sorry, I put somebody on

(14:51):
probation because that was quiteserious and I put somebody on
disfellowshipment and it couldhave been worse.
That was it.
The only two things I ever did.
The rest was, you know, go yourway, sin no more.
I remember that.
Look, you talk to me, it'sconfidential.
I won't talk to anybody aboutit.
It won't go anywhere.
Stop it, refrain from it, justlearn from it.

(15:14):
You know, the fact that you'vecome and talked to it means it
bothers you enough, for goodnesssake, right?
Well, I didn't say goodness saketo them, but I said, you know,
it's enough for you to talkabout it.
You've obviously put yourselfthrough torment.
You've gone through enoughtorment and enough pain.
You've learned from it.
Just move on, you know, go thyway and sin no more was my
approach.
So, but I was not, an ordinarybishop.

(15:34):
I just didn't follow the book.
So other bishops, I know thebishops that did drill down into
specifics and some that actuallywent too far on this subject.

SPEAKER_00 (15:46):
Well, I wish you had been my bishop when I was young,
and we'll get into that as we goforward.
But the instruction now isbishops are explicitly told that
And you would not have had tohave been explicitly told when
you were serving as a bishopbecause you were wise enough to

(16:06):
recognize this was not anappropriate subject to discuss.
But they now have to beexplicitly told there is no
ecclesiastical consequence formasturbation.
There is no church disciplinethat should be applied.
You can't deny someone a templerecommend.
You can't deny someone thesacrament.

(16:27):
There's just no consequence toit.
which still is not the samething as saying it's okay.
They're not really willing to gothat far.
And so the silence on itmaintains a certain amount of
confusion and contradiction andleadership roulette because

(16:48):
there are still leaders thathaven't gotten the memo and
continue to make people's livesmiserable over this issue.
This came up.
Have you ever watched Jubilee?
It's an online show.
And they had one called Mormonsversus ex-Mormons.

(17:08):
And what they would do is theywould ask a question and they'd
have Mormons and ex-Mormonsanswer it.
And one of the questions in thediscussions was, is masturbation
sinful?
And Cardin Ellis, who is thehead of Ward Radio, he's a guy
I've been on their podcast anumber of different times.
I consider Cardin a friend,although I think he's kind of

(17:31):
upset with me at the moment, butthat's another story.
Cardin Ellis was representingthe church on this, and they
brought him forward and he says,yes, it's a sin, but it's really
no big deal.
It's a parking ticket, for lackof a better term.
was how he described it.
This is just a parking ticket.
This is just no big deal.
Nobody really cares about it.

(17:54):
And so this now leads me intothe first of two very personal
and very painful stories.
I'm going to start with the onethat happened when I was 12
years old.
When I became a deacon, I washanded a copy of that pamphlet.

(18:14):
Four young men only, two youngmen only.
I always think of it as fouryoung men only, but it's two
young men only.
I was handing a copy of thispamphlet and I was really kind
of excited.
I was like, Ooh, two young menonly.
This is a secret.
This is something only for youngmen.
Is this some kind of specialpriesthood thing that I'm now

(18:34):
being initiated into?
I was really kind of excited.
I can remember thinking, this iscool.
This is cool.
This is what happens because Ijust got in the priesthood.
This is what happens.
I'm now part of the brotherhood.
And then I started to read it.
And we've talked about, you saidin your introduction that this

(18:54):
is very clearly aboutmasturbation.
When I was 12 years old, I had,not only did I have no idea what
masturbation was, I certainlyhad never done it.
I had never even heard the word.
I mean, I, I, I don't know how,uh, you know, innocent and, and

(19:20):
naive or whatever you can, youcan make fun of my sheltered
upbringing all you want.
But at 12 years old, I'm handedthis pamphlet, which does not, I
don't even think it uses theword sex either.
I read it and I had no idea.
what it was talking about.

(19:42):
No idea whatsoever.
And I did not realize it wassexual because the metaphor of
the little factory is how ElderPacker describes masturbation.
And it is such a tortured andlabored metaphor that it was
impossible to know what thefrick he was talking about.

(20:05):
Just, I had no idea that youwould have a little factory and
it will go into operation atsome point silently and you'll
never even know that it'sworking.
And I mean, he describes wetdreams in a way that is just
ludicrous.
He talks about the factory has avalve and at some point the

(20:26):
valve will open and release allthat is excess.
And this may happen in the formof a dream.
I'm like, what?
A valve?
Release what?
It will release a substance thatcreates life.
So that's how he describessemen.

(20:47):
I mean, it's just so torturedand so labored and so
impenetrable to somebody whodoesn't have any context for
what he's talking about.
So I read through this pamphlet,and it's very clear from the
tone of the pamphlet that thisis important.
that messing with your littlefactory is a huge, huge deal.

(21:09):
And it can lead to terriblethings.
I mean, later on, it talksessentially about, I guess it
does mention sex, because I dothink it mentions homosexuality.
It tells the story of amissionary companion and a
missionary who beat up hiscompanion.
And because essentially theimplication, and I didn't

(21:30):
recognize this at 12 years old,but I've certainly recognized it
reading it since, Theimplication was that this
companion was gay and may verywell have made sexual advances.
But that's not even clear.
The sense I get is this guy,this missionary came out to his
companion and his companion hithim in the face.

(21:51):
And you read it and ElderPacker's reaction is, oh, well,
somebody had to do it.

SPEAKER_01 (21:58):
He says here, while I was on a mission, Elder
Packers sharing the story.
I've got the pamphlet in frontof me right now.
So this is Elder Packers sharingthis story and his comments.
While I was on a mission, aboutthis other missionary, while I
was on a mission on oneoccasion, a missionary said,
this is Elder Packers, one ofhis missionary friends, said he

(22:18):
had something to confess.
I was worried because he justcould not get himself to tell me
what he had done.
After patient encouragement, hefinally blurted out, I hit my
companion.
Oh, is that all?
I said in great relief.
That's Elder Packer, I think.
But I floored him, he said.
After learning a little more, myresponse was, well, thanks.
Somebody had to do it, and itwouldn't be well for a general
authority to solve that problemthat way.

(22:42):
So he seemed to be okay aboutthis missionary beating the crap
out of this other missionary.
And he says, I'm notrecommending that, of course, to
you, but I am not admitting it.
You must protect yourself.
Yeah.
Maybe the...
The gay person was, uh, yeah.
If

SPEAKER_00 (23:00):
you watch the talk in conference, that's a laugh
line.
It says, I'm not recommendingit, but I'm not omitting it.
Ha ha ha ha.
The whole crowd just laughs.
It's horrific.
It's horrific when you considerthat.
I mean, this is a generalauthority.
This is an apostle advocatingviolence against, uh, a gay

(23:21):
missionary.
I mean, He's not advocating it,but he's not omitting it.
Of course he's advocating it.
He's saying it's acceptable.
It's just horrific.
And if there's any positive tobe taken from that, it's that
the church has moved away fromthat.
I think that and not themasturbation may well have been

(23:49):
the reason why this pamphlet wasquietly flushed down the memory
hole.
Because we don't teach thatanymore.
We don't teach that just beinggay is terrible and it's not
acceptable to hit somebody whois gay.
I mean, that's just so bizarrethat that even has to be said.
But clearly, we have moved agreat deal away from this

(24:12):
pamphlet on a number of fronts.
But anyway, so I read thispamphlet, was completely
confused, and made, I think, themistake of of taking it to my
mother.
And my mother, bless her heart,just was very uncomfortable

(24:33):
talking about this.
She knew exactly what it is, butdidn't want to, I mean, it was
just so awkward.
And I didn't really understandthat because when I brought it
to her, I was like, what doesthis mean?
What is this little factory?
What is he talking about?
And my mother just kind ofhemmed and hawed and didn't know
what to say.
And finally she said, look, whatit means is don't play with your
penis.

(24:54):
And I was like, oh, okay.
And I just kind of sat therewith that.
And what that did, I mean,again, it's very difficult for
other people to understand thisbecause you have to put yourself
in the mindset of a 12-year-oldinnocent.

(25:17):
who had no idea, had absolutelyno sexual experience whatsoever,
either with another person oreven with himself.
I had absolutely no sexualanything.
I didn't understand it.
I didn't comprehend it.
And here I am being told, don'tplay with your penis in the
context of having read somethingthat has scared me to death.

(25:40):
because I'm terrified that I'mgonna activate a little factory.
So I don't know how long thislasted, but for a long time, I
would not hold my penis as Ipeed.
I would stand there spread eagleand just hope I landed in the
bowl because I was afraid.
Don't play with your penis.

(26:01):
Well, does that mean don't touchyour penis when you're peeing?
I mean, nobody was comfortablespelling it out.
Certainly Elder Packer wasn'tbecause he wasn't even
comfortable telling me what thepamphlet was about.
Everything was awkward.
Everything was, we can't talkabout this.
Everything, there was a layer ofshame and a layer of guilt that

(26:27):
essentially weighed me down formy entire adolescence.
I spent, I say this I told thisstory on another podcast, and
when I admitted this, thispodcast, they put this applause
sound afterwards.

(26:48):
Like, oh, yay, good for you.
Because the reality is peoplemay not believe this.
I know one of my leaders didn'tbelieve this, and that's the
second story.
But I went through my entireadolescence without
masturbating.
And I don't say that.
I'm not proud of it.
Because the reason I didn'tmasturbate was not because I was

(27:12):
righteous.
It's because I was terrified.
I was terrified of my own body.
I spent my entire adolescenceterrified of my own body and
worried that I was going to dosomething.
And the way masturbation wasdealt with in sort of hushed
tones and whispers, and somebishops thought it was a big

(27:33):
deal and others like you didnot, but it was...
You had nobody to talk to aboutit.
You had nobody to ask questionsabout it with.
And I also even thought, well,maybe I am masturbating because
if you touch your penis at anypoint, what if you have an
erection and you touch yourpenis?

(27:53):
Is that masturbation?
I mean, these sound ridiculousnow as I talk about them, but
there wasn't anybody who I couldtalk about this with.
And I couldn't even talk to ahealthcare professional if there
was such a thing.
But we had science classes wherewe had discussions about

(28:18):
sexuality.
Sex education, Jim.
Yeah.
The first sex education class Ihad was in fifth grade.
It was very clinical.
I remember it was all aboutsperms and eggs and
fertilization and I just thinksex education in the 1970s was
so fraught and so controversialthat nobody wanted to touch on

(28:42):
anything.
I can't remember masturbation.
I can remember masturbationcoming up once.
Once.
It was in seventh grade.
Mr.
Robbins was my science teacher.
And we were doing a unit onsexuality.
And he had said, I want you, Iknow this is difficult.

(29:02):
So everybody, I just rememberedthis.
This is the first time I'veremembered this in decades.
But he said, I want everybody towrite down your questions and
don't put your name to thembecause I know that some of
these questions will bedifficult for you to answer.
And I didn't write this questiondown, but somebody else did.

(29:25):
They wrote down the question.
Can you please explain whatmasturbation is?
And I remember hearing that andbeing like, oh, good.
Somebody's going to tell me.
Somebody's going to talk aboutthis.
And Mr.
Robbins' answer, again, did not.

(29:47):
I mean, nobody wants to say,okay, what it is is when you
pleasure yourself and you arouseyourself to the point where you
ejaculate.
I mean, nobody had ever given mean explanation that was that
simple.
His answer essentially was, thething you need to know is that
there are no physical dangersfor masturbating.

(30:12):
There are rumors that you can goblind or you can, he says, it
does not harm you.

SPEAKER_01 (30:21):
President Kimball has quite a bit to say of this
subject in his now infamousbook, Miracle of Forgiveness.
He says this, and this is justextraordinary.
It says that he condemnsmasturbation.
It induces feelings of guilt andshame.
It is detrimental tospirituality.
It indicates slavery to theflesh, not the master of it.

(30:41):
And it limits growth towardsgodhood, which is the object of
a mortal life, becoming a god.
He says the modern prophets haveindicated that no young man
should be called on a missionwho is not free from this
practice.
I think the position has changednow.
If you're a young man, youmasturbate, you can go on a
mission.
So who was right, who was wrong?
And he goes on to say this.

(31:01):
While we should not regard thisweakness, masturbation, as the
heinous sin, which some of thesexual practices are, it is of
itself bad enough to requiresincere repentance.
What is more, it too often, toooften leads to grievous sin,
even to that sin against nature,homosexuality.

(31:22):
For doing it in private, Itevolves often into mutual
masturbation, practiced withanother person of the same sex,
and thence into total, notpartial, total homosexuality.
So if you masturbate, you turngay, essentially.

(31:43):
Right now, our listeners can'tsee it, but you are holding your
face in your hands and shakingyour head, and I'm shaking my
head.
I mean, he says that.
That's in The Miracle ofForgiveness.

SPEAKER_00 (31:55):
Oh, I know.
I know.
The church has quietly flushedMiracle of Forgiveness down the
memory hall, too.
We should talk about

SPEAKER_01 (32:03):
that.
That's another subject.
And you and I have talked aboutdiscussing that book.
But anyway, so you were saying,to keep us on track, you were
saying that masturbation isn'tdangerous.

SPEAKER_00 (32:15):
Well, no.
This was a seventh grade—thiswas at A.E.
Wright Middle School in SouthernCalifornia.
And— Mr.
Robbins, my science teacher, hadno connection to the church.
So as he was talking about thisand he refused to get into any
specifics as to whatmasturbation was because I still

(32:36):
really wasn't clear on it.
I was nervous that maybe I wasmasturbating.
You know, it doesn't matter.
It's just so embarrassing toeven talk about it.
It's just painful.
It's physically painful todiscuss this.
It is just so embarrassing.

SPEAKER_01 (32:54):
I know.
If you're not comfortable,that's fine.
We can move on.

SPEAKER_00 (32:58):
I feel like I ought to talk about it because I think
there are so many other peoplewho have experienced maybe not
something as weirdly specific asthis, but the kind of body
shaming that comes from aninability to talk clearly about
about the church's standards andexpectations.

(33:20):
I think that is widespread eventoday.
I think there are so many peoplethat don't really understand
what the church expects of them,what they consider a sin, what's
appropriate, what they can andcan't do, because there's no
place to talk about it.
Everything is just, you read thelittle factory story and you're

(33:41):
supposed to figure it out onyour own.
And there wasn't anybody to helpme figure it out.
And as I got older, I mean, Icame to understand certainly
more, but I didn't understandreally what the boundaries are,
really how serious it was,really what the big, I mean, I
just had so many questions and Ihad nobody to ask them to.

(34:03):
And so in a middle schoolscience class, Yeah.
And it's the first time thesubject has even come up.
And the only information I getis it's not going to make you go
blind.
And that, that was essentiallyit.
That's the only time that I canremember any kind of discussion
about masturbation at allthroughout my entire

(34:24):
adolescence.

SPEAKER_01 (34:25):
Did you, uh, and you talked about this before on the
podcast.
Um, you know, when you go foryour interview to serve a
mission.
Yes.
You know, I had young men cometo me as a bishop who wanted to
serve a mission, and I had aprobably more thorough set of
questions that was given to methat you ask the young
individual, the young man oryoung woman.

(34:47):
So the more thorough questionsthere were.
And I think those are theconversations where we did talk
about masturbation with them.
Are you free from masturbation?
I think that was a question Iasked them.
a young man who was interestedin serving in Michigan.
When you were having yourinterview with the bishop or

(35:08):
your stake president, what wasthat conversation like?
This is the interview as you hadput your papers in for your
mission.
You'd met with the stakepresident or your bishop.
Did the subject of masturbationcome up in those conversations?

SPEAKER_00 (35:26):
It did.
This is the second explosiveconversation painful, physically
painful story.
Probably more physically painfulthan the first.
Well, I don't know if that'strue because the first, the
whole, I mean, my wholeadolescence was overshadowed by

(35:47):
two young men only.
And it made me terrified of myown body and just caused all
kinds of problems of self-image,self-esteem, self-confidence.
It just did nothing but damageto all those things.
So my mission interview, it wasa little bit unusual in that I

(36:11):
had grown up in SouthernCalifornia and right after I
graduated from high school, myfamily moved from the house I
grew up in to Salt Lake City.
And I stayed in Los Angeles.
I went to the University ofSouthern California And then I,

(36:31):
you know, so, but I left fromSalt Lake City.
Salt Lake City was my home, eventhough I'd never really lived
there.
I'd never, you know, so I wasinterviewed for my mission by a
bishop in a ward that I hadnever lived in and by a stake

(36:52):
president in a stake that I hadnever lived in.
And the bishop's interview was,I actually do think masturbation
came up in the bishop'sinterview, but it came up very,
very quickly.
The bishop didn't want to evenbring it up.
He was like, so no problemsthen?
I think that was the extent ofit.
And I said, no problems.

(37:14):
And off I went.
So I was told, it's the stakepresident's interview that has
lingered in my life forever.
And the story of the stakepresident's interview is, again,
is a story I did not tell for atleast 20 years after it took

(37:34):
place.
But it scarred me.
And I think it's important thatwe discuss it.
So I was told, hey, you're infor a treat, Jim, because you
get to be interviewed by JohnHuntsman.
You know who John Huntsman is,Ian?

SPEAKER_01 (37:54):
I do.
I met his father at a businessconference in Germany a long

SPEAKER_00 (37:58):
time ago.
No, it's the father I'm talkingabout.
John Huntsman Jr.
is the governor of Utah.
So you met the guy whointerviewed me for my mission.

SPEAKER_01 (38:05):
Yeah, I did.
We're going back to the 80s.
It was a big exhibition,chemicals, plastics in Germany.
Yeah, I met the guy thatinterviewed you.
Same guy.

SPEAKER_00 (38:13):
Yeah, John Huntsman Sr.
There was a political guy inUtah who says, Utah has many
businessmen, but only oneindustrialist.
He would always be referred toas industrialist John Huntsman.
He ran this huge chemical plant.
I think he was the richest manin Utah, one of the richest men
in the world, a billionaire backwhen it was very difficult to be

(38:35):
a billionaire.
There are a lot morebillionaires now.
But so this extraordinarilyprestigious, powerful,
unbelievably intimidating manand said, you get to be
interviewed by John Huntsman.
Now, I didn't know who he was.

(38:56):
And then they told me who hewas.
And so I was sufficientlyintimidated when I got into his
office.
And I can remember so manyspecifics of this day because
his office was a little tiny,tiny thing at the bottom of a
stairwell.
You could walk into a side doorand it was right above this

(39:17):
stairwell.
The stairwell was right againstthe wall.
and you would go right down thestairwell and right at the
bottom of the stairs was thistiny little office.
And where I found myself sittingtwo, three feet away from John
Huntsman, Sr.
And I get in there and I sitdown and he kind of looks me

(39:37):
over and he says, well, ElderBennett, I don't know you, but I
know your family and I know youcome from good stock was the
term he used.
He says, so I asked a lot ofquestions of missionaries, but I
don't feel like I need to askyou all of those.
I think we can skip a lot ofthese.

(39:58):
I'm just going to ask you theone question I ask of all my
missionaries.
Do you masturbate?
And I said, no, and thought wewould move on.
I thought, okay, no, I don't.
And without skipping a beat, Thenext words out of his mouth
were, I don't believe you.

(40:21):
And he said, and I understandhow this is difficult for people
to talk about.
And I don't want you to go onyour mission without having
cleared this up.
And I don't want you to go onyour mission having lied to a
stake president or lied toanybody.

(40:41):
So I'm going to give you anotheropportunity And he asked me
again, do you masturbate?
And I said, no.
And then he launched into thishuge diatribe about how when you
lie to your stake president,it's just like lying to the face

(41:02):
of Jesus because they have thepriesthood and so they represent
Jesus.
And so in lying to the stakepresident, I'm lying to God.
And he goes into how I'm goingto be a failure as a missionary
because I'll never be able tohave the Spirit with me because
I've lied directly to God.
And this will last my wholelife.
I'm going to be a failure inmarriage.
I'm never going to be a goodfather.

(41:23):
I mean, this moment of me lyingto him is going to essentially
ruin my life and condemn me tohell.
I mean, I don't remember any ofthe words specifically at that
point because I was so...
Just so torn up inside.

(41:43):
Because again, I was also kindof going, well, do I?
I mean, I don't think I do.
I mean, the way I understandwhat masturbation is, I've never
done that.
But is anything that I've done,could that be considered
masturbation?
And he's the stake president,and does he have the spirit of
discernment?
And is he sensing something thatI don't know about?
And he's John Huntsman, so he'sobviously...

(42:06):
the most righteous man who couldpossibly be.
And, you know, so I'm just tornup as I'm sitting here listening
to this man I don't know condemnme to hell.
In the course of it, I doremember one thing he said.
He kind of rolled his eyes andhe goes, well, if you're telling
me the truth, you're the mostrighteous young man I've ever
met.
And again, he wasn't saying itas a compliment.

(42:27):
It was a, this is why I can'tpossibly believe you, Jim, is
the...
No young man is that righteous.
No young man doesn't masturbate.
So obviously, so I was justsitting there just feeling
ripped up.
And so finally at the end of it,he says, so I'm going to ask you

(42:47):
a third time, now that you knowall this, do you masturbate?
And I responded, I do not.
I mean, I don't know if I said,I don't know how I said yes or I
do not, but I certainly wasn'tconfident.
It wasn't like this defiantthing.
It was just this, no, just, Idon't masturbate.
I made that clear a third time.

(43:10):
And he just kind of sighed andlike, I can't stop you from
going on a mission.
All right, well, there's nothingelse I can do for you.
I mean, and that was essentiallythe end of the interview.
There was no like, you know,well, I hope to be helpful.

(43:30):
I hope, you know, You wouldthink at the end of an
interview, it would be like, youknow, we're so excited for you.
He was just so deflated thatthere was nothing he could do to
stop me from going on a missionwhen he knew that I was a
terrible sinner.
And I remember walking out ofthat office and just scurrying

(43:51):
up those stairs as fast as Ican, as I could, and so grateful
that they were so close to thedoor.
because it meant that I didn'thave to see anybody on my way
out.
I didn't have to talk toanybody.
And I'm going home, and I'mgoing home with this sort of
condemnation hanging over myhead that my life is ruined.

(44:11):
I've just been condemned to hellby John Huntsman.
And I couldn't talk about it.
I didn't talk to my parentsabout it.
I didn't talk to my family aboutit.
I never talked to PresidentBanks about it on my mission.
but it was always kind ofhanging over my head.
It wasn't though, I mean, thatsounds really dramatic, and it

(44:34):
was dramatic in the moment.
I did somehow manage to kind ofshelve that.
I did kind of manage to finallydecide, the more I looked into
it, the more I realized, no, Iwas telling him the truth.
So if I was telling him thetruth, then I don't have
anything I need to worry about.
And so that was enough to beable to kind of tap that down.

(44:55):
It didn't...
Um, it, it, it, it was somethingI could live with.
It wasn't, it wasn't nearly, Ithink, as scarring as the
uncertainty and the confusionthat I dealt with as an
adolescent, but, uh, it was justhorrific in the moment.
And it was a horrific for longenough after the moment that it,

(45:18):
there was always kind of thatseed of doubt that, uh, that I
was righteous enough to be on amission.
But just that entire exchange,to have a stake president, not
only just give you that muchguilt over something that now
the church no longer has anyecclesiastical consequence
attached to, but also for him,the first thing he says when he

(45:43):
asks the question, and I say no,is, I don't believe you.
I mean, what does that do?
Because I have to believe.
that I am not the only personthat he did that to.
I have to believe he did that toevery missionary.
He says that's a question heasked of all his missionaries.

(46:05):
And I have never talked toanybody else who was interviewed
by John Huntsman.
I'd be really fascinated to dothat.
If there's anybody listening whoserved a mission and left from
the...
No, I said Granite South.
That's my stake now.
Monument Park.
This was the Monument Parkstake.
And...

(46:25):
If anybody else was interviewedby John Huntsman and had this
experience, I'd be veryinteresting to hear your
reaction to it.
But so those are my two bigpainful stories.
And I just think if there isanybody within the sound of my
voice that can be helped by thefact that, you know, I've

(46:48):
listened to a podcast before.
It's kind of an adult sexeducation podcast, and the title
of it is You Are Not Broken.
And I've always loved that.
And I just want, if there'sanybody listening to this who's
had a terrible experience like Ihave with church leadership on
this subject, you are notbroken.

(47:10):
You are not broken.
The church messed this one uprather severely, I think.
And the church knows it, whichis why the church has quietly
changed direction.
Again, with everything thechurch does, I wish they would
do it openly.
I wish they would say, becauseas I'm saying this, I said this

(47:33):
once on this other podcast, andsomebody says, oh, I don't
believe that.
What do you mean the church,there's no ecclesiastical
consequence to masturbation?
Where is that in the handbook?
Like, I can show it to you inthe handbook.
It's there.
You can go look at it.
But The church, like the GospelTopics essays, like Race in the
Priesthood, the church quietlydisavows things and moves beyond

(47:56):
things, but they never admitthey made a mistake.
They never admit they werewrong.
And when they change, they nevertell you that they have changed,
which means, just like peoplewe've interviewed on this
podcast, that disavowed ideasand anything things the church
no longer teaches still surviveand even thrive in corners of

(48:20):
the church because the churchhasn't actively taken steps to
correct them.
So that's my big messy story,Ian.
Those were my confessions.

SPEAKER_01 (48:31):
Well, I'm so sorry you had to go through that.
You said earlier this affects,you know, affected your
self-esteem, your self-worth,how you felt about yourself, how
you're sorry about yourself.
This is serious stuff.
You know, we're talking aboutsexual health and mental health.
You know, the two are veryrelated.
I'm not an expert, obviously,but you're sharing, you know,

(48:52):
your very personal and profoundfeelings and thoughts and
experiences from that veryuncomfortable, judgmental, and
just cold and a little bit cruelinterview that was insensitive
and in many ways, disrespectful.

(49:13):
I'm just so sorry that you hadto go through that.
I'm also sorry to know, probablyas a matter of fact, that you're
not the only one, only youngman, young woman who's gone
through that.
Remember I said earlier, a lotof these bishops and state
presidents and generalauthorities are not trained.
I mean, going into thatinterview like that and asking
that one question like that, isjust so damaging.

(49:36):
I think the closest I got tothat was my conversation that I
had, an interview I had, withPresident Joel Dunn.
Oh,

SPEAKER_00 (49:44):
goodness.

SPEAKER_01 (49:45):
A name that you will have heard of many times, but I
don't think he met Joel Dunn.

SPEAKER_00 (49:50):
I met him after my mission.

SPEAKER_01 (49:53):
That's right.
The mission reunion.
So President Joel Dunn, who wasthe brother of Lawrence Eden, I
think, was my mission presidentin the 80s there.
I think President Banks came inJuly.
President Dunn was verymilitary, regimental, sergeant
major kind of guy.
And he asked me straight out, hesaid, Elder Wilkes, do you

(50:14):
masturbate?
I went, nope.
And he said, well, you know, ifyou do, God is watching.
I was like, what?
He said, when you masturbate,God is watching.
And I was like, that's justweird.
Why would God be watching?
I'm not masturbating, but whywould God watch me masturbate?

(50:35):
I just thought that was just,you know, again, I didn't grow
up in the church.
I'm a convert.
I just thought the whole thingfrom a, I was seeing things also
as a non-member, right?
You know, I joined the church afew years ago.
And the idea that God waswatching me masturbate or anyone
masturbate was just plain crazy.
weird.
I didn't say anything, but thatwas the strangest interview I'd

(50:57):
ever had with President Dunn.
Just jumping back into thepamphlet here, again, which is
from Elder Packer's talk, and Ido recommend our listeners going
online and downloading this ifyou want to.
It's an extraordinary...
I mean, we've not even touchedabout some of the weirdness and

(51:19):
strangeness and just the analogyof the little factory is just so
weird but in one of the sectionsthere he says here when he's
talking just after his commentsabout when he shares that
experience of that mystery whobeat up his companion and he
gets that laughter that youtalked about during his talk and
the congregation laughs he saysthis just immediately afterwards

(51:41):
there is a falsehood that someare born with an attraction to
their own kind so he's gone fromthe little factory analogy which
is just so bizarre.
And all the control things thatyou have to do and you have to
sing a hymn and keep your mindoff it and do something else, et

(52:02):
cetera, et cetera.
Then he's talked about thismissionary beating the crap out
of his companion.
And then he jumps into this.
He says, there is a falsehoodthat some are born with an
attraction of their own kindwith nothing they can do about
it.
They are just, quote, that way,end quote, or quotation marks,

(52:22):
and can only yield to thosedesires.
This is a malicious anddestructive life.
While it is a convincing idea tosome, it is of the devil.
No one is locked into that kindof life.
From our premortal life, we weredirected into a physical body.
There is no mismatching ofbodies and spirits.
Boys are to become men,masculine, manly men.

(52:48):
manly men.
That's extraordinary.
Ultimately, to become husbandsand fathers, no one is
predestined to a perverted useof these powers, even those who
have been drawn into wickedpractices and are bound by
almost unyielding habits canescape.
If one of you seems trapped inthat escape, go to your father

(53:08):
or bishop, please, your parents,your bishop, the servants of the
Lord, the angels of heaven.
You can go to the angels ofheaven.
The ones that have been watchingyou masturbate.
And the Lord himself will helpyou from it.
The pamphlet, the comments arejust full of extraordinary

(53:31):
comments like that.
Do not tamper with his powers,neither with yourself alone, nor
with one of your own kind.
Never let anyone handle you ortouch you, your personal parts.
I can understand what he's doingand why he's doing it.
I said at the beginning that Ithink there was good intent
behind this, Jim.
I think there was a, well, Iknow there was a position and

(53:52):
belief from the generalauthorities that if you do this,
it has a negative spiritual,emotional, psychological impact.
I think there's a correlation,by the way, you might agree with
this, between a, certainly fromthe church leadership
perspective at that time in the70s and 80s, between a lack of
understanding of sexual health,clinical sexual health, in those

(54:19):
kind of conversations and theunderstanding we've got right
now and the doctrine and theculture of the church.
I just don't think theyunderstood it.
And I also, without giving themmuch credit, I think the world
has become much moreknowledgeable in the last 30
years on sexual health.
And so to be fair to theleaders, they didn't know about

(54:42):
what I said earlier when I gavethat kind of overview about you
know, some of the benefits of,you know, practicing, you know,
healthy sexual practicesaccording to, you know,
professionals, et cetera, etcetera.
The church, like any of us,didn't have access to that
knowledge or that understandingor that material.
And they were thinking andseeing and behaving and acting

(55:05):
through this prison, this verystrict, orthodox, you know,
conservative, Presbyterian, youknow, very strict Anglican-type
teaching, thinking that I...
Because this teaching, by theway, this is not unique to the
church.
I remember going to Sundayschool as a kid in the Church of

(55:26):
England as a Cub Scout, and theytalked a little bit about this
stuff.
I remember conversations about,you know, believe it or not,
this was taught, don'tmasturbate and don't go buy
dirty magazines.
There was no internet back then.
And The church thinking, ElderPacker's thinking, comes from

(55:46):
that strict, orthodox,old-fashioned, conservative
thinking that a lot of churcheshad.
Not just the Mormon church, butother churches who had, or at
least taught it, notwithstandingmany of them didn't practice
that.
We look at the situation withthe Catholic church and all the

(56:08):
sexual abuse.
So Elder Packer's thinking andspeaking like this for a reason.
This is who he is.
This is his mindset.
Don't, you know, don't doanything to turn on the little
factory.
Go sing a hymn.
Go do a prayer.

(56:28):
You know, have a prayer.
If you look at some of theimages, by the way, I find them
funny and sad in some ways.
In the pamphlet, there's someimages of a musical symbol.
So, presuming, you know, sing ahymn if you're tempted to.
open the valve in the littlefactory.
Uh, there's an image of someonepraying.
There's an image of a young man,uh, exercising, you know,

(56:50):
sprinting, athletic.
And then there's another imagenext to it.
I can see of someone that looksquite guilty.
Um, clearly it's just been askedthe question from elder Hudson
Huntsman.
Uh, uh, He's probably not givingthe same answer that you gave.
I probably shouldn't joke, but Ican see, I said at the

(57:10):
beginning, there's so manylayers of emotion to this.
I see the funny side to it insome ways.
I see the dangerous side.
I see the, you know, verydangerous things about, you
know, masturbating leads tohomosexuality and turning gay,
et cetera.
But this is Elder Packer saying,I won't use the word books.

(57:33):
It negates what I said earlier.
But however, this is on thepacket.
Thinking and speaking that wayfor a reason.
This is his mindset.
This is the culture.
That was the doctrine.
That was the position.
And that's what the church didand what they said back then.
And of course, things have movedon.
Fast forward to now, you canserve a mission if you

(57:55):
masturbate.
I think you're told not to.
You're told to stop it, refrainfrom it.
If you masturbate, you can stayon your mission.
You can go on a mission.
Things have changed there.
I don't think that'scommunicated in a broadcast.
I don't think the church wouldstand up and say, hey, announce
that in some memo or some policychange.

(58:15):
But if they were strict to theold-fashioned way of thinking,
that if you're serving a missionand you're masturbating, there'd
be no missionaries out there.
that the church would come to astop.
I mean, that's probably unfair.
I'm not suggesting everybody,all the missionaries out there

(58:36):
are masturbating.
I'm happy to suggest that.
Are you okay?
I don't know.
I don't know.
But I know, I suspect, you know,many

SPEAKER_00 (58:47):
are, but it was a change.
When I was in Dundee, so thiswould have been about six months
into my mission, there came anedict down from on high saying,
that everyone was supposed toplace a Book of Mormon in their
bathroom on top of the toilet.
Do you remember that?

(59:07):
I do.
I remember that.
And that was the instruction.
But the instruction was thatthat will help you if you are
tempted.
Again, all of the kind ofshadowy silence and shame.
Nobody said, if you want tomasturbate, read the Book of
Mormon instead.
But that's clearly what theywere saying.

(59:28):
But Yeah, it was clearly anissue in our mission.
It was clearly a reality.
And I've talked to missionpresidents since, people who've
been mission presidents.
I actually ended up talking tomy uncle Howard, who was a

(59:49):
mission president in LosAngeles.
And he later, after he served asa mission president in Los
Angeles, he decided he wanted tolive there.
And he...
I lived in his house while Iwent to the University of
Southern California.
And I considered Uncle Howardkind of my second father.
And I actually remember, so thisis, I hadn't thought about this

(01:00:13):
for years.
So Uncle Howard was also the LAState President.
And I remember talking to himabout Joel J.
Dunn, of all people.
Because Joel J.
Dunn at one point, had told mytrainer, Elder Hansen, who was
your companion as well.

(01:00:33):
Love that guy.
Yes, yes.
I haven't heard from himforever.
I need to find him.
But he told me that at onepoint, and correct me if I'm
wrong, at one point PresidentDunn told the missionaries,
don't exercise because it'scarnal.
Worrying about your body iscarnal.
So don't waste time exercising.

(01:00:55):
Did he actually say that?
No.
You don't remember him sayingthat?

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:00):
No, he might have done.
It was just all about just work,knocking on doors and convert
and baptisms.
I don't remember theconversation about not exercise.
He never encouraged exercise,but I don't remember him telling
us not to exercise, no.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:11):
Oh, okay.
Well, I may be misrememberingthat part of who said that, but
I don't think I was because thenUncle Howard just went, jeez,
they don't exercise exercise.
you're going to have atremendous problem with
masturbation.
He's like, I told mymissionaries to exercise as much

(01:01:32):
as they possibly could becausethat's the only physical outlet
you're allowed on your mission.
So, you know, he was just, as hetalked about it, he's like,
that's the stupidest thing youcould do because all they're
going to do then is masturbate.
So, you know, and he was amission president in the, what,
early 60s, maybe 50s.

(01:01:53):
I don't think he's that old,but.
He was very young as a missionpresident.
He was in his 30s when he wascalled as a mission president.
But this has been with us.
It's not as if Boyd K.
Packer suddenly discoveredmasturbation or invented
masturbation.
It has been going on since thebeginning of time.

(01:02:17):
And the idea that this is such aterrible, sinful, awful thing,
has destroyed a great number oflives in and out of the church,
I think.
It's just...
I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:38):
Sorry, I just ramped up.
It's okay.
It's a very interesting, it's avery serious topic.
We talk about mental healthhere.
But I think we...
as we wrap up this podcast, uh,I do recommend to our listeners,
uh, if they're interested is goonline, go download, um, this,

(01:02:59):
um, booklet, this pamphlet that,uh, Elder Packer, uh, and his
team put together.
Again, it's titled The Young MenOnly.
It's from an address given atthe previous session of General
Conference in October 2nd, 76.
It's extraordinary.
There's so much more to it thatwe've not even got into, um, on
this.
There's some very interestingpoints in there in terms of

(01:03:23):
revealing how the Packer thinksand how the church thinks, for
sure.
And again, my message to ourlisteners is, and any young man,
young woman in the church, whichhas got to be contrary to what
the church teaches, butmasturbation is normal.
It's healthy, as we talked aboutearlier.
And I think the advice aboutgoing to someone, you know, if

(01:03:45):
you've got questions about this,go talk to somebody that you
trust, you know, a friend, evena family member, um, be careful
about talking to church leaders.
If you trust the person, great,but you need to have that
relationship where you canabsolutely trust them because
these are very personal things.
These are the most intimatethings that you can be talking

(01:04:07):
about with your church leadersor your, your family, your
friends.
So, uh, judge wisely who you,uh, you know, open up to and
share, um, your conversationswith.
I think the message for mebefore I just ask you to give
your closing remarks, Jim, is,you know, masturbation and
sexual health, you know, theseare, you know, it's a normal

(01:04:29):
practice.
You shouldn't feel guilty orshame.
You know, I, and many others, ofcourse, including from your
experiences, felt the opposite.
We felt intense shameextraordinary levels of guilt um
crushing is the word i would usewith some individuals not with

(01:04:50):
me again i i joined the churchat 16 so i've had a little bit
of perspective but i've had seensituations where a person is so
riddled with guilt it's it'scrushing them even like they
physically they cowered down inin the in the seat in front of
me as a bishop and uhfortunately i've being able to
lift them out of that and kindof brought a more balanced

(01:05:13):
perspective to that.
This is really not that seriousat all.
Just if it affects you so much,just stop it.
And I think they're quiteshocked actually at the
lightness in that ways that Ibring to those situations where
people feel crushed anddestroyed by the guilt.

(01:05:38):
Guilt is so crushing and sodestroying and affects people's
self-esteem and self-worth.
And it's just awful to seepeople go through that.
So my message is that if youhave questions about this
subject, go see a professional.
Go see a friend, family member,someone that you can trust.
But it doesn't mean that there'sanything wrong with you.

(01:06:02):
You're normal.
You're healthy.
You're good.
You're as good as anyone else.
You really are.
And, uh, they'll, they'll be myclosing remarks on that.
Do you have any final commentsor remarks or advice, Jim, from
your experts?

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:15):
Sure.
Um, uh, I would echo all ofthat.
I, but just the most importantthing I think is you, you are
not broken.
I mean, I said that earlier, butI think that's the summary here.
Our last episode was this wholeidea of you are enough.

(01:06:37):
And I'm really heartened by alot of people who reached out to
us who said, wow, you know, thisis something I've dealt with my
whole life.
I always felt inadequate.
I always felt like I'm notenough.
It's so lovely to hear that I amenough.
Particularly on this issue, thechurch— I love the church.

(01:06:57):
I'm not leaving the church.
I'm not trying to tear down thechurch.
I want to make that clear here.
The church, like all of us, islearning and growing and making
mistakes along the way.
And this was a mistake thatdidn't really matter to a lot of
people.
A lot of people sort of gotthrough this unscathed.

(01:07:18):
They got that pamphlet andprobably may not have even read
it.
But this is a mistake that did agreat deal of damage to me.
And I would be willing to betthat it did a great deal of
damage to others as well.
And I have reached a point nowwhere I think it's essential
that even, I mean, just sayingwords like masturbation and

(01:07:40):
penis and, you know, these arethe kinds of things that
particularly in the 1970s, youjust, you just, there was such a
cultural taboo to saying thingsthat were that explicit.
Yeah.
We need to get over that.
We need to accept the realitythat we're all human beings.

(01:08:02):
We're all sexual human beings.
And that you should not spendyour adolescence or really any
part of your life terrified ofyour own body the way I did.
And I, you know, I just, Ireally wish the church I'm

(01:08:22):
grateful the church has sort ofmoved beyond this, although they
haven't moved beyond it as faras I would like.
I really wish the church wouldopen up and admit and take
responsibility andaccountability for the damage
that this pamphlet and thesekinds of teachings have done to
so many people.

(01:08:43):
But if you are somebody that wasdamaged by this, know of our
love for you at least, Ian andI, are so grateful to hear from
people like you when you tell usthat this has been helpful to
you, to hear these kinds ofthings discussed.

(01:09:04):
But I am confident in sayingyour Heavenly Father loves you
as well.
Jesus Christ loves you as well.
And to the extent that you havebeen falsely told that this This
practice somehow is going todamage you eternally.
I just hope you are able to letthat go because it's not true,

(01:09:33):
it's not helpful, and you arenot broken.
So that's my summation.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:39):
Jim, I agree with all of that.
I have nothing more to add.
I want to take this opportunityto thank our listeners.
I'm grateful that ourconversations continue to help
people.
That is why we do this.
To all of us, thank you so much.
And we look forward to our nextpodcast with you in about a week

(01:10:01):
or so.
So thank you to everyone.
Have a great week.
And Jim, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:07):
See you.
Thank you, Ian.
Thank you.