February 12, 2025 • 56 mins
What if you could embrace life’s final transition with peace and clarity? Join me, Cassandra Crawley-Mayo, as I sit down with the gentle yet profound Gretchen Jones, an intuitive guide and compassionate death doula. Together, we unravel the complexities of dying, death, and spiritual awareness, offering insight into how death doulas work alongside hospice professionals to provide holistic end-of-life care. Gretchen's journey into this sacred work is deeply personal, inspired by spiritual experiences from her childhood and the impactful loss of her father, which she candidly shares to help demystify the dying process.
Our conversation sheds light on the spiritual aspects of end-of-life care, exploring concepts like shared death experiences and the often-unspoken visions and dreams that accompany this profound transition. We discuss how these insights provide guidance, comfort, and a deeper understanding of life transitions, not only for those at the end of life but also for those they leave behind. Gretchen's stories, particularly about patients like Sister Bernadette, illustrate the delicate balance of respecting faith and guiding individuals through their unique spiritual journeys.
As we explore the common regrets faced by those nearing the end of their lives, this episode serves as a poignant reminder of the importance of finding purpose and peace. Gretchen emphasizes the vital role of hospice professionals and death doulas in fostering family closure, ensuring that no one dies alone, and helping families navigate potential conflicts. This episode is a touching testament to the power of compassion and presence, urging listeners to reflect on how they can support loved ones during life’s final chapter.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cassandra (00:00):
Hello to all of my listeners and I'd like to
welcome you to Is your Way Inyour Way podcast, and I am your
host, cassandra Crawley-Mayo,and for those new listeners out
there, let me kind of share withyou what this podcast is all
about.
It's actually about individualswho are stuck, and when I say
stuck, you know that there'scertain things in your heart or
(00:22):
in your belly that you want todo, but you just can't do it.
And you know how we dwell onwhat's our purpose and we're so
focused on trying to figure itout that we never get to it.
Or you want to start a newbusiness, or you want to be a
doula, or you'd like to bepromoted, or you may like to
(00:42):
move somewhere, you may want torelocate, so there are a number
of things.
So this is a podcast that willenable you to have some
self-reflection on the things wetalk about and even some
personal development and somebusiness development things that
we're going to also talk about.
And today let me share what thetopic is.
(01:03):
It's about dying, death andspiritual awareness, and I have
a special guest on by the nameof Helen Gretchen Jones that
you're going to meet in a fewminutes, and in my book for most
of you who've read the book, Ido have a chapter in there and,
as you know, a chapter are loveletters written to women and
(01:24):
this chapter is about dear womenwho have lost a loved one.
So we're going to go a littlebeyond that and Helen is going
to just share some insight thatshe has in reference to the
dying, the death and spiritualawareness.
Okay, well, hello, I see youhave Gretchen on the screen and
(01:49):
I have Helen Gretchen Jones, sodo we call?
Do I call you Gretchen?
Gretchen (01:54):
You can call me Gretchen, or there's just a lot
of Helens in my family.
Helen is my first name, butwe're all named Helen, it seems.
Cassandra (01:59):
Oh, really, how interesting, how interesting.
Well, I'd like to welcome youto Is your Way In your Way
podcast.
It's a pleasure to have you asone of my guests.
Gretchen (02:08):
Thank you so much.
I'm happy to be here.
Cassandra (02:11):
Yeah, I'm going to read your bio for my listeners,
just so they can get a littlebackground on you before we
delve into our topic.
Gretchen is a compassionatedeath doula, intuitive guide and
channeler, dedicated tofostering spiritual
consciousness and deeperconnections.
(02:34):
Through her work with the 18and spirit, she helps others
trust their personal experiencesand embrace messages from
beyond.
She has a dual master's degreein arts, history and theology,
along with certifications andsound bowl therapy.
(02:55):
Is it Reiki?
Reiki, reiki and hypnosis?
She offers a unique blend ofknowledge and intuition.
When she's not guiding hospicepatients or teaching spiritual
seminars, helen enjoys life onher Texas ranch with her family
(03:17):
and their beloved animals.
She's also a number onebestseller for healing whispers
from spirit guides.
So well, from that.
First of all, I'm going to askher now.
Many of you now.
For me, there are quite a fewdoulas, but I always hear doula
in reference to somebody who'spregnant.
(03:37):
You know even a doula after thebaby is born, and so many of
you probably have not heard of adeath doula.
So before we get started,gretchen, what is a death doula?
Gretchen (03:59):
Can you hear me?
I can it froze for a minute,but you're back, okay, great.
What's a death doula?
So a death doula, like a birthdoula doula literally means to
help or guide or assist, and adeath doula is someone who is
helping those who are activelydying or maybe been diagnosed
(04:19):
with a terminal illness to startthe process of transitioning.
So death doulas work with bothpatients and with families to
guide them through the processof dying.
Cassandra (04:30):
Okay, when a person's in hospice, is it any different
than the work that you?
Gretchen (04:37):
do so.
I work with hospice patientsand other different families
privately as well, but hospiceis an amazing resource and tool
in our communities.
It is an opportunity forfamilies to receive medical care
, pain relief medications.
(04:57):
In that sense, volunteers,nurses coming in help with basic
needs of a patient as theyprogress along their journey,
including bathing and differentthings like that.
I've had patients in hospicecare for as long as five years
and that is one of my stickingpoints.
It's that people are so afraidto get on hospice because they
(05:21):
feel like it's the end, it's thefinal goodbye in some ways.
But really it's a valuableresource for all of our
communities and a lot of peopledon't recognize sometimes that
hospice is also charitable.
So even if you don't haveinsurance, you can get on
hospice and be supplied with thenecessary medications and
(05:41):
resources available medicationsand resources available.
Cassandra (05:49):
Wow, when you say charitable, what does that mean?
Because a lot of people youknow like, if I'm not mistaken,
like Medicare, I don't believepays for hospice.
It's a lot of things that theydon't have the resources to get
their family members on hospice,knowing that probably that's
the next best step, that'sprobably what a doctor would
share with their family.
So when you say resource, whattype of resources would they
(06:11):
have?
Gretchen (06:12):
So, for example, if someone they're a nonprofit most
of the time and if they don't,if you don't have insurance or
you have limited funds forhospice, you can qualify to
still get hospice and everything.
You get everything with it.
So you have doctors come tohome visits right, so they'll
(06:34):
come out and visit you, usuallyweekly, but that could vary
based on the needs of thepatient.
Nurses are several times a week, volunteers, that's on whatever
.
Sometimes volunteers can comeand sit with the patient so
they're not lonely.
Perhaps their loved one has togo to work or needs to run to
the grocery store or take ashower.
Being a caregiver is verytaxing, so hospice allows a
(06:57):
little bit of relief in thatsense for caregivers.
Cassandra (07:00):
Okay, so when there's an individual that would need
those resources, they just go toa charitable organization
cancer or what type oforganization, Catholic or refer
(07:24):
you to hospice and it's their.
Gretchen (07:26):
Their standards for referring to hospice are really
simple.
It's if they believe that theyare, it's if they would not be
surprised if you were to die inthe next six months.
If a doctor says I wouldn't besurprised if you died in the
next six months and it could beyou could.
Like I said earlier, I've had apatient on there for five years
.
It's it's very, very lenient,but it's very, very helpful.
Cassandra (07:46):
That's great information.
Thanks for sharing that.
Now, what I'd like to know isbefore you got your education,
your degree in history andtheology, tell us a little bit
about your backstory.
What was going on as you weregrowing up?
Backstory what was going onwhen you as you were growing up?
Gretchen (08:05):
So when I was growing up, my family was my grandmother
was a seven-day Adventist, myfather was an atheist, later
agnostic, my we were raisedPresbyterian, so we had all
(08:26):
these different faiths coming in.
I had friends who were Hinduand Muslim and as I moved
through college and I just hadso many, I don't know I just
felt like someone had to beright, someone had to have the
answers.
So when I started studying arthistory, I was looking for
answers and all the differenttypes of types of art,
iconography and and you know,all the way back to cave
paintings.
I'm like where are the answers?
(08:47):
And when I got degrees intheology, I was comparing
different world religions,trying to figure out what was
right.
And what I discovered along theway, because I had had
spiritual experiences even as akid, was what I could really
trust for my own beautiful waswhat I could really trust for my
own beautiful, very loving.
I believe in a God, insomething that is all
(09:14):
encompassing all that is.
And that's what I feel when Ihave these spiritual experiences
and I don't know, I felt likereligion as a religion offers
some really amazing structuresand community for a lot of
people who really, really needthat.
But as a whole, I think thatI'm more geared towards
spiritual experiences assomething that drives me more
(09:35):
than a specific structuredreligion.
Cassandra (09:39):
Okay, Now talk about some of those spiritual
experiences.
What are those?
What do they look like?
Gretchen (09:47):
So are you referring to in my childhood, or when I'm
sitting bedside with patients?
Cassandra (09:53):
In your childhood, as you were growing up, because
something led you to this, whichyou're currently doing, and
we'll get to that.
But what was going on?
Experiences when you were achild?
Gretchen (10:05):
So we had me and my sister Gwen.
We were we're a year apart, sowe're very close in age, and my
family was a little bit, I don'tknow.
My mom got married a lot and wewere, we were.
(10:25):
We went to go live with mygrandmother, off and on a lot.
I say we probably lived withher as much as we lived with our
mom, and so there was a littlebit of I didn't.
I didn't have that control orthat structure that I yearned
for as a kid, and so when I feltoverwhelmed or I don't know, a
little like I wasn't unsureabout myself or my surroundings,
(10:47):
I would go sit in a bathtubwhere I knew no one would bother
me, just an empty bathtub, andI would just focus on the
silence.
And sometimes during that timeI would have a spiritual
experience that would make mefeel that everything was going
to be okay, that everything wasokay, that I had nothing to fear
(11:09):
, and so that that experienceand those voices or those beings
of light helped me along myjourney.
Cassandra (11:17):
Ever since then, as long as I can remember, While
you were having, so this is notthe only spiritual experience
you had as a child, um, but asyou were having, these did you
share it with anyone what youwere going through, what your
experiences were.
Gretchen (11:35):
I did and I, when I shared it with my dad, he said I
believe you believe that's whatyou saw.
You know he was.
It was disappointing to hearthat, but these experiences were
so transformative that it didnot make me question the wisdom
of the information comingthrough.
It made me question the wisdomof my parents If they didn't
understand what was happening orwhat was going on.
(11:57):
Perhaps they didn't know asmuch as I thought, maybe they
should, as my parents as alittle kid.
Cassandra (12:02):
When.
Gretchen (12:03):
I told my grandmother she was scared.
It was something very fearfulfor her.
She thought it could be, in herwords, like the work of the
devil sort of thing, because shecame from a very fear-based
upbringing around being able toconnect on a spiritual level.
(12:24):
So I kind of find that ironic,because I think in many
Christian religions being ableto connect to God is something
that everyone strives for, sobeing able to connect to angels
or whatever.
So these were beings of lightand they never had anything.
Everything that ever emanatedfrom them was beautiful and warm
(12:47):
and loving and it was alwayspositive.
But I think it was still ascary concept for my grandmother
.
Cassandra (12:53):
Yeah, so when you you had these experiences, you
believe it.
Did you believe it was Godgiven to you or an angel or
light, Like, did something, saysomething to you?
Was it something done thattransformed you and you just
(13:13):
came way out, Just you know, gotout of yourself, no longer
stuck in this thing?
Gretchen (13:20):
Yes.
So no one ever came to me andsaid I am God or I am an angel
or I am of the light.
They were all of those things.
I'll tell you what it felt like.
It felt like home.
It felt like a remembering.
It felt like, oh yeah, ofcourse this is right.
It just felt exactly rightwhere I was supposed to be.
(13:43):
Everything felt okay.
I wasn't fearful in any way.
It felt like an old friend or aloved one, a companion, someone
who has always been there forme, would love me, no matter
what.
That.
I felt this deep love for themand it was really more of a.
It felt bigger than me, sort oflike a collective, and I
(14:07):
associate God with everything.
You know.
God is in me, god is in everyanimal, every plant, every being
.
So that's sort of what it feelslike, okay.
Cassandra (14:21):
You went to.
You had a certain education,you indicated because you were
very curious.
You know and put stuff together.
I think curiosity is wonderful.
I actually see that as beingvery wise.
When an individual is curious,let's go into.
(14:42):
Okay, what made you?
Okay, let me ask you this, why?
Let me ask you your why.
Why, what's your why behindbeing a death doula?
Gretchen (14:55):
So my father transitioned in 2015 and he was
only in his fifties, so that'spretty young.
And he passed away of cirrhosisof the liver.
Okay, so his my passing wasunexpected for many members in
my family.
It was not for me.
I'd had a vision five monthsbefore that that he was going to
(15:18):
be transitioning and so Iunderstood when it happened that
it wasn't something unexpected.
But my sister Victoria I haveanother sister, victoria she had
not had closure with my fatherwhen he transitioned and there
was a lot of grief and anger andupset around that.
And it was heartbreaking,heartbreaking.
(15:41):
I can't even tell you theamount of closure that was not
able to happen with my familyand my dad, and when that
happened, I thought, gosh, if Icould change anything with
anyone else, it'd be a way toalleviate not having closure,
(16:02):
not recognizing what's importantat end of life, not taking the
opportunity to be vulnerable andsay what needs to be said.
And so when I heard aboutbecoming I heard the
certification for a death doulaand what they do I thought this
is my chance.
This is my chance to work withfamilies and patients so that
they have closure at end of lifeand we don't have to have a
repeat of what happened with myfamily and my father.
Cassandra (16:19):
OK, ok, interesting.
So you talked about, was it anNDE, like near death experiences
?
So experience is shared, shareddeath.
Gretchen (16:32):
Yes, ok, ok.
Shared death experience.
Is it shared?
Shared death yes.
Cassandra (16:35):
Okay, so it's not near death, it's shared, correct
, okay, okay.
Well, I won't ask itself aquestion.
Gretchen (16:44):
Well, I find that shared death experiences have
some similarities with NDEs.
Actually, oh do they In what?
way.
So whenever, at the end of life,whenever someone is about to
take their final breath it'sbeen my experience so far
because I'm able to see spiritsstanding outside of their bodies
I'm able to see these peoplestanding outside of their bodies
(17:07):
before that final breath istaken, and the reason this is
important is because it means wedon't have to suffer.
So many people are afraid to goto sleep whenever they're in the
process of dying.
They're afraid they're notgoing to wake back up or they're
afraid, with every breath theytake, it might be their last one
.
There's going to be a shift andit's going to get harder and
(17:27):
harder, and they worry aboutthat last breath being a
stressful breath that couldimply suffering.
But what I'm discovering isthat people are actually
standing outside of their body.
Their body is going through thenatural process of shutting
down and returning to the earth,but the soul of that person is
safely observing.
This is supported through NDEexperiencers when they say oh, I
(17:50):
was, you know they were doingCPR on me.
They were, you know, had allthe monitors hooked up and I was
at the ceiling on the house inthe hospital because you don't
be in your body for that momentof suffering.
The only difference between mypatients and the people who are
NDEers is mine continue to theirwelcome home party and to the
other side, whereas NDEersreturn back to their body once
(18:13):
the hard part is over thesuffering and the cracking of
the ribs and the CPR and all ofthat stuff.
Cassandra (18:20):
So that even happens, like if someone was tragically
killed right In an accident, youknow, just boom, either on an
airplane, you know.
So they will then still seetheir what do you call it?
An outer body, or would theystill see themselves?
Gretchen (18:44):
I believe that they shift their focus.
So we are spirits and we arealways spirit and we are
utilizing a human earthly bodyas a vehicle in which to have
experiences that have abeginning and an end.
In our earthly world we havetime and we use it, and we need
(19:05):
it because it allows us to exitour experience.
We don't want to be here inhuman bodies for eternity.
No, we are souls.
That would be so boring.
We are souls who want to have abeginning and an end to our
physical experience, so there'sno need for us to experience
suffering.
As we shift our focus out ofour bodies, we can let the body
(19:25):
go, and we do, quite naturally,even if an airplane's going down
, we pop out of our pop outright before collision.
Cassandra (19:34):
Yeah, yeah, because I have heard individuals say, you
know, as someone istransitioning, they can see them
.
I've heard that see theirbodies moving.
And I also had another guestwho did had a near death
experience and she talked abouthow she saw herself.
She saw people working on herbody, you know, and that was
(19:57):
unbelievable.
Because, well, let me ask youthis why do you think people
shun from even talking aboutthis, about death?
They don't even want to talkabout it, you know?
Why do you think that is?
Gretchen (20:14):
Now I've given this a lot of thought and actually, if
I were to just be real practicalabout it, I think it happens
back during during wartime.
Specifically, I believe it wasthe Civil War, where embalming
started, that's where trying toget soldiers back home across
(20:38):
state lines and different areas,so that we started utilizing
embalming and putting them sothat their bodies would stay
longer before they can make itback home.
Once we started having removingdeath from the home and from
the family, it becomes somethingthat's distant from us.
So someone gets sick, we putthem in the hospital, we put
them in a nursing home they'reaway from our private home.
Some stay in the home, andthat's great if they can and
(21:01):
then after that we send them offto be embalmed or cremated or
and then someone else takes careof the aftercare of the body
after that dies.
And then someone else embalmsthem, someone else puts them in
the ground.
I mean there's, it's someoneelse always doing the work to
care for our, our, our dying andour and our dead.
(21:22):
So, with so far removed.
Generations and generations goby and we start to have um.
Death becomes something alittle bit uncomfortable for us,
Something that's unknown,something that's done by other
people, not us.
That's when I think it shifted,just from a practical
standpoint, when we stoppedpersonally caring for our dying
(21:44):
and dead.
Cassandra (21:47):
It's like nope, we don't have control because we
don't understand it or we don't.
I've had people say I don'twant to talk about it and
they're adamant about it.
I don't care what you do withmy stuff, they just you know,
I've heard people say that andeven though and when I was
sharing about the chapter in mybook I kind of talked about what
(22:08):
individuals wishes, it's just,it's just weird how, how they
don't plan but they plan for ababy or they plan for a marriage
or wedding, but why not planfor something so sacred but, as
you indicated, that sounds about, I would kind of say that
practically why we shun from it.
Share with us your mosttransformative experiences with
(22:35):
the patient.
Do you have any?
I bet you do.
I have a.
Gretchen (22:40):
I have a lot and I've had several that are very, very
transformative.
I am not sure which one toshare.
One of my favorite ones toshare is Mrs Wilma.
Of course, I have changed theirnames to protect their privacy.
Mrs Wilma was a patient of NODA, changed their names to protect
their privacy.
Mrs Wilma was a patient of NODA,and NODA stands for no One Dies
(23:00):
Alone.
It's a hospital-based programin many cities across our
country.
What NODA is and I'm going totalk a little bit really quick
NODA is a volunteer organization.
When someone starts to activelydie, which means the last 72
hours, they send out an emailblast to all of their note of
volunteers and you sign up.
(23:20):
Yeah, oh, it's fantastic.
You sign up for three hourshifts and you go and you sit
with these patients.
Um, and these are people who aredying alone, people who maybe
never had children, maybe afamily can't afford to fly in
where they're at, maybe theywere kind of jerks and burned
all those bridges and no onewants to be there for a number
of reasons.
People are dying alone.
(23:42):
Yeah, yeah, wow, yeah.
So Mrs Wilma was a Noda patientand I signed up for her shift
and when I go in to sit with mypatients.
I like to do a little bit of aprayer or a meditation.
I set my intention before goingin and then I do it again when
(24:02):
I see my patient.
I'll sit with her.
Mrs Milma was elderly, she was,I believe, in her nineties, she
was black and she was um.
She did have family.
They just couldn't afford tocome in and she was um very,
very peaceful and I sat thereand I played um hymns.
(24:27):
I knew she was Baptist, so Iplayed on my phone and as I sat
down to sort of like hold herhand and pray with her, a young
version of her walked in theroom.
At first I thought it was areal person, because it can feel
so real sometimes.
But she presented herself asaround the age of 10 or 12 years
(24:50):
old and she also was in blackand white and that's a symbol
for me.
When I see spirit in black andwhite, this puts them in the
years of 1920s to 1969respectively, and I think that's
because my husband's aphotographer and those were the
years of black and whitephotography.
So I think it's just my ownsymbol.
(25:11):
So she appears, she was dressedin her Sunday best and her hair
was twisted in these cutelittle pigtails and she walks
over and takes my other hand.
So my left hand is holding MrsWilma's right hand in the
hospital room and she comes andtakes my left hand and as she
does, the hospital transformsinto like this forest, like a
(25:34):
forest.
I am aware that I'm still in thehospital holding physical Mr
Mrs Wilma's hand and I'm alsoaware of being in a forest with
young Mrs Wilma and, withoutsaying words, she's talking.
She's not using her mouth, it'sjust information coming in and
she says do you see this onetree?
(25:59):
She was showing me this treeLike do you see this one tree?
This one tree is growing inthis forest and every root
coming off of this tree believesit's an individual root, it's
its own life.
Every little root that'sbranching off of this other
bigger root believes it's itsown individual life.
Every branch coming off thistree believes it's its own life.
(26:20):
Every single leaf believes it'sits own life.
But it isn't.
It's all connected.
All of it is serving the greaterwhole of this tree.
And when you look at this treeit's all part of this forest.
It believes it's its own tree,and yet it's not.
It's part of this forest.
It believes it's its own tree,and yet it's not.
It's part of this larger forest.
(26:40):
You pull back even further it'spart of this larger ecosystem.
We're all connected.
We are all one, and that waswhat she was teaching, and she
was teaching the importance ofconnection and self-awareness
through connection.
Yeah, but I also had thisoverwhelming sense, when she was
holding my hand, of segregation, right.
So she experienced segregationas a child, which is separation,
(27:03):
and then she had separationfrom her family throughout her
life, and then here she was,dying alone.
So what was almost thisoverarching theme of separation?
The true beauty behind it was alesson of connection and being
unified, and so that was one ofthe profound experiences that I
had with Mrs Wilma.
Cassandra (27:23):
Wow, when you were telling that story and you
talked about how you knew whather religion was.
She was Baptist and it made meremember a quote in the Bible
that says I'm the vine andyou're the branch and and and.
You can't do anything if you'renot stay connected with me.
(27:44):
Also, it's like you know.
Then there's fruit on on thebranches as well.
And when you talk about theconnection part I thought about
in the Bible, it talks about howGod says we're all one.
You know, if you're a believer,we're all connected.
So I just find that interesting, because we all have different
perspectives.
But if I didn't know what youshared about her faith, then
(28:07):
that probably would not haveeven come up.
But yet it's still all aboutconnection, you know, which to
me maybe was a lesson learnedfor you.
I don't know, but I just saw itin the biblical standpoint of
what she was, the words you saidshe shared your perspective,
(28:28):
not that she shared with you,but what you got out of that
story.
Gretchen (28:31):
My interpretation of what she was sharing.
Yeah, exactly.
Cassandra (28:35):
Exactly Now.
You said before you go into apatient, you set your intention.
What are your intentionsdifferent from each one, or are
they basically the same?
Gretchen (28:47):
Basically the same before I go in.
It is that I serve them fortheir highest and greatest good,
and I've now changed that tothat I be of service for the
highest and greatest good of allinvolved, not just for them,
right?
So it should be everythingconnected.
So that's what I do.
And then when I see my patient,I just kind of sit down and
(29:11):
pray and I, I just I just sendso much love um to them and then
intuitively, I sort of let myprayers guide me after I'm
sitting with my patient.
Cassandra (29:24):
Interesting.
Um, does your so?
The the ones that you said?
Um, no one dies alone, but theindividuals that have family
that come and be with them andyou're there.
Have you ever had any hesitancyor reluctancy from those
(29:47):
families?
Because I see you havesimilarities for a hospice
person, nurse or whatever, butyou definitely have different
ways of doing things.
You have what I call a gift.
What about the families ofthose individuals?
Are they resisting you?
What have some of thoseexperiences been like for them
(30:09):
and for you?
Gretchen (30:12):
So I'm not medically trained, so I can't administer
medication.
So that's where I differ from anurse.
Okay, nurses now are requiredto do so much more paperwork
(30:34):
than they had to do before, andso they're not able to spend as
much one-on-one time with thepatients as they used to be able
to do, which I imagine is theirfavorite part.
Yes, yeah.
So that's, I think, where theposition sort of evolved.
Um, when I am working withhospice or if I am hired as a
(30:54):
private death doula for a family, it depends on who hires me.
So sometimes I'm hired by thepatient and sometimes I'm hired
by the family.
So if the family hires me, it'sthe patient that they felt that
they couldn't get through to,and that can be a little more
challenging.
Cassandra (31:11):
Okay, uh-huh Okay.
Gretchen (31:13):
But it's very important to recognize that when
you go in and sit with a familyor a patient or both, that you
know what their faith is.
And that's one of the thingsthat has been very, very helpful
with my degree in theology ishaving a very deep appreciation
and understanding of differentworld religions and
(31:34):
understanding of different worldreligions.
So when at end of life, whenpatients are having visions or
seeing deceased loved ones orhaving these beautiful spiritual
experiences, sometimes it canseem contradictory to their
faith and it's very important tobe able to understand what the
faith is and help help navigatethat within the confines of the
(31:56):
faith, perspectives of the faith, so that your whole reason that
you're there is to bring peaceand to bring closure for family
and the patient.
So, for example, I had, um, oneof my patients was a Catholic
nun, uh, sister Bernadette, andshe was lovely.
She was a nurse her whole lifeand worked in a hospital and
(32:18):
here she was dying now in thehospital, and so she had a very
supportive community.
Everyone loves sisterBernadette and when we uh one
time she came in and she goesclose the door I have a
confession to make and I thought, do I need to go get a priest.
It was kind of, you know, spicy.
She was sometimes and she says,no, I want you to tell, I want
(32:38):
to tell you that my friend, mysister, mary Catherine, has been
visiting me and I was like, oh,that's great, you know.
And she goes no, you don'tunderstand, she's already gone
to our Lord, our Lord father.
So I was just like, oh, andshe's been not only visiting,
but she's been chatting with her, and she was very adamant that
(32:59):
communing with the dead wentagainst her Catholic faith.
And so, in an attempt to sortof guide that process a little
bit, I said, no, you talk tomother Mary, you talk to Jesus,
you talk to God, you know, you,you talk to dead all the time
and she goes no, I pray to them,I don't commune with them.
So, in her mind, she wasn'thaving an active conversation
(33:22):
with them.
She was expressing gratitudetowards them and asking them for
some things and never having anactive conversation.
And I think that's where shedrew the line with her faith.
Of course, everything'sperspective, we can shift it
Absolutely, and so I think whatwe ended up doing was we talked
about how, perhaps, like whenArchangel Gabriel visited Mother
(33:47):
Mary and told her she was goingto have Jesus, that that was a
vision that she had and I saidperhaps Sister Mary Catherine is
a messenger of God as a visionfor you and perhaps we can
approach it that way.
She's like, oh okay, I needtime to kind of think about that
a little bit.
But it helped her be able thento interact with that vision of
(34:10):
Sister Mary Catherine and beable to take on the beautiful
loving messages as they preparedfor their trip.
Sister Mary Catherine wastelling able to take on the
beautiful loving messages asthey prepared for their trip.
Sister Mary Catherine wastelling her they were going to
be taking a trip.
So so if you understandsomeone's faith, and you
understand how to shift aperspective that includes the
loving, beautiful spiritualexperiences that are happening.
(34:32):
Well then, that definitelyoffers closure.
Cassandra (34:38):
That's beautiful, that's that, and you're right, a
lot does have to do with thereligion that they are, you know
, and that's their belief andthat's what they're going to go
with, and I think it's awesomeof you to study those religions
so you can, too, understand.
And obviously, it's no judgment.
(35:00):
You're not there to judge.
You're there to love them andprovide them with comfort as
they transition.
Now, do you believe individualsmay have visions, but they're
not transitioning?
Have you ever heard that before?
Gretchen (35:18):
I have visions and I'm not transitioning.
Cassandra (35:21):
Exactly, exactly.
Are your visions similar, orare they just at random, or do
they come often?
Tell me about those visions.
I'm interested because I've hadone, just one.
Gretchen (35:40):
And I was like what was your vision?
Cassandra (35:42):
Well, my vision was I was at work and when I went in
my office and everything in myoffice was turned around the
desk, the chairs, the plant wasover here.
My desk was spotless, mydrawers were spotless, and
(36:03):
throughout the day I was angrybecause I thought somebody came
in my office and changed itaround without telling me and
this went off for the entire day.
So when I had my employees cometo me, I would look at them
strange and they're like isanything wrong with you?
I'm like no.
And then I asked somebody.
I said did you come in andchange my desk?
They were looking at me like no, and I was like well, what is?
(36:27):
And it bothered me all day longand I was blaming my employees.
I'm like I know you use likeeverything was in order,
everything OK, and not that Ihad a.
Maybe my office was in disarray, but it wasn't like I had it
before.
And then at the end of the daymy office came back to how it
(36:52):
was and I was like what in theworld was that?
And I asked my minister yes,people have visions.
And you know he said well, yeah, he said tell me about it.
And then, you know, he kind ofshared with me, because there
was a lot of chaos in the hotelwith employees.
You know they would argue witheach other, they would oh, it
(37:14):
was just crazy.
And he said what's going tohappen is things are going to
get back in order where you work, and it and it did.
People start leaving, newpeople started coming in.
So that was my only vision Ihad.
Then I'm like I want to haveanother one, but I've not ever
had another one so far.
Gretchen (37:32):
Well, that was a spontaneous vision then.
Cassandra (37:38):
It's.
Yes, it was.
Gretchen (37:38):
It was so what type of visions do you have.
I've had spontaneous visions,but I have now I have a more
developed practice.
So when I sit down to pray ormeditate, I do that regularly
and I receive.
I'm very, very visual and Ireceive visions every time,
every time.
I do that now, as I receive,I'm very, very visual and I
receive visions every time,every time.
I do that now as part of mypractice, and so I utilize that
(38:01):
village, that vision, to helpguide my, the challenges in my
life or the challenges otherpeople are experiencing and of
course there are.
There's, like you were saying,there's no judgment, there's
it's just where a person is ontheir path.
So if I receive information, Idon't have to tell that person
(38:23):
necessarily.
Like, for example, when I sawthat my dad was going to die, I
didn't go tell my dad, I sawthat you're going to die.
Yeah, you know that, that, whatyou know, what I think is
happening around that, because Iwill frequently now, because
I'm working with people who aredying so often, I will
frequently get visions around aballpark of when someone's going
(38:43):
to die five months, you know,four weeks, something like that.
And it is they've never justsaid.
You know October 7th at youknow 9am.
No one's ever it's not like that.
It's definitely a ballpark, butI think the reason that that is
happening and this has beenwhat I'm journaling and trying
to get my head around is I don'tget to be privy to someone's
(39:07):
death as if it's written instone.
I believe that once I receive aballpark that someone's going
to transition, it's because, ona soul level, that when I
receive a ballpark thatsomeone's going to transition,
it's because on a soul level,that has been decided, and then
I'm able to pick up on thatinformation like a wave of
information around me.
It isn't like I can stop it.
I don't think it's meant to bestopped and I also think that
(39:28):
it's something that you know issomething that I have to go tell
someone right away.
It's because on a soul levelthat's already been decided for
them, maybe by them, maybe byGod, maybe by both, maybe they
are God, it doesn't matter.
And then I think that's when Ibecome aware of it, so that I
can work with them and thefamily to navigate peace and
closure in those final moments.
(39:49):
It doesn't have to be aboutguess what I just figured out.
You're gonna be dying inOctober.
Cassandra (39:54):
guess what I just figured out, you're going to be
dying in October, exactly,exactly.
That's interesting, and Ididn't consider those as visions
.
But I have dreams and I haven'thad them lately, like I usually
do.
But I would dream if somebodywas going to pass, or I would
dream if somebody was going toget a promotion, but I never
would tell that person.
And I don't know if I didn'ttell him because maybe that
wasn't going to happen or I justfelt that that was something
(40:17):
that I should keep to myself andI would tell my mom.
You know, my mom said oh, Ibelieve you were born with a
veil over your face.
I don't know if you ever heardthat.
Like yeah, she said, I think youwere born with a veil over your
face.
I'm like really, wow, you know.
So I didn't, I wasn't afraid,but it was just unusual, you
know.
And then I would have my momsay did you dream anything about
(40:38):
me the other night.
I said I don't think it workslike that.
I don't think it works likethat, but I didn't consider
those.
I just say those were my dreamsthat I had.
You know I can, I can interpretsome dreams.
Sometimes that's somewhat of agift of mine, so that's
interesting.
Gretchen (40:54):
I think that's beautiful.
I would love to get more dreams.
I mean, that is fantasticReally, yeah.
Cassandra (41:01):
Yeah, and when I have them, I I I never finish them,
and I think that's why Iremember them, because I'm right
in the middle of them.
But if I finish them, then Idon't remember them.
But if I'm right in the middleand I wake up, I'm like, oh my
gosh, yeah, cause I had one theother day which was kind of
weird, and I have a dream bookand that helps me interpret the
dream.
So I keep saying I'm going to,I'm going to look in that book,
(41:23):
but I don't know what it's goingto say.
I don't know if I want to knowthat or not.
So, yeah, that's reallyinteresting how we were created
and wired.
That's what I'll say.
That's what I'll say.
Another question and I know youtalk to your patients there's a
hospice nurse by the name ofBonnie Ware.
(41:45):
I don't know if you've everheard of her, but what she did
was she was interested inindividuals' regrets as they
were transitioning.
So she interviewed them, shegot permission and it was
amazing the regrets people had,you know, and and three of them.
I'm like, okay, I can get it.
I work too hard, I don't spendenough time with family, I wish
(42:06):
I would travel, but there weretwo regrets that really stuck
with me and I think I knowthat's what got me on my mission
is I wish I were happier, theywould say, and I wish I was more
true to myself.
And that's what they would say.
And I was like that's so weird.
Why weren't they happier, whycouldn't they be more true to
themselves?
(42:26):
So the patients that you'vespoken with, have they ever
talked about their lives, likewhat's happened in their lives
or any?
Gretchen (42:34):
regrets or anything.
Yes, and I think that that'simportant.
I haven't heard the happier oneas much, because all of them
are unhappy, but that's notwhere they're focused, because
most of them are not justthrilled that they're dying,
right, okay, but I have heardthe true to themselves.
It's one of the biggest ones Iget, and here's why, okay, and
(42:57):
my thought is I'm the people whoI'm talking to who are
expressing that are elderly,they're in their eighties and
their nineties.
That was a different time.
That was a time when it reallymattered about what your
reputation was, what otherpeople thought of you, what the
(43:18):
community thought of you.
That's getting less and less.
Now People don't care as much.
They'll say and do anythingonline these days community
standards and that there were,you know, you don't?
You don't?
you know you couldn't be outwith a boy too late or it might
(43:41):
look bad you know, and youcouldn't dance too close, and
you know, I mean, there werejust all these social rules that
really mattered.
So people shifted their livesand lived their lives based
around what they thought otherpeople were going to think, what
they feared other people mightthink, and it was a very
judgmental time in my thought.
So when I'm helping people whoare of that age transition, they
(44:05):
start to recognize now how manyof their decisions were based
around their thoughts of whatother people might think versus
what they really wanted to do.
Cassandra (44:14):
Interesting.
Have you been with anyoneyounger and and experienced
their thoughts, what they werethinking, that weren't at that
age.
Gretchen (44:25):
My youngest patient was, um, almost was in their
late twenties, early thirties,being vague Um and um, that
person, um.
And then I had another patientwho was in her uh, forties and
they were um.
I'm going to talk about thewoman in her forties.
(44:46):
The woman in her forties, um,she was an alcoholic and so she
still very much felt not at alllike she lived her life for
someone else, but she did feellike things were done.
She was very much sort ofvictimized throughout her life
(45:06):
is sort of her perspective.
And so, even in death, this wasbeing done to her and there
seemed to be a lot less.
There appears to be a lot lessownership or responsibility
based on actions and some of myyounger patients they feel more
like look what life has done tome, instead of a victim.
(45:30):
Yeah, so I mean, that's just.
I mean I have, luckily I havemore experience with people who
are elderly than I do with myyounger patients, but that is
something that I've noticedinteresting.
Cassandra (45:44):
Um gretchen, uh, you know, people are really, uh, and
I I was like this too as I wasgrowing up and wondered what my
purpose was.
You know, and there is a ladyby the name of, I think her name
is Garci, she's one hundred andthree years old.
She has been, oh, she's been,on the Internet.
(46:07):
You know, people areinterviewing her and she's a
doctor and she was talking about, of course, she has a lot of
wisdom because of her age, andshe was saying that one of the
there were five reasons orsomething.
You know that that makes peoplehappy, and she talked about
having a meaning in life, likethey have to know their purpose,
(46:29):
because you're not here just tobe here, you're here for a
reason, and then you're going togo on, and I believe that
because right now, even thoughyour purpose can change over
time, but I'm pretty clear rightnow what mine is, do you know
what yours is?
Is it what you're?
Gretchen (46:47):
doing you think so?
I believe that we all have.
We're all multi-purposed.
I think that we're here formany reasons.
I believe one of my purposes isto serve.
It's what brings me fulfillment, and so having that fulfillment
obviously means I'm content andhappy.
It doesn't mean I don'tcontinue to set goals and strive
(47:07):
for new and different things,of course, but right now,
serving the dying community isright where I'm supposed to be,
and that will probably change.
I haven't always served thedying community, but I do feel
serving is something thatdefinitely brings me fulfillment
.
You know, I asked my husbandthe same question.
I was like, what brings youfulfillment?
(47:27):
And he said he said providingfor my family, and so I always
thought of that as being areally big responsibility.
Cassandra (47:36):
Yes.
Gretchen (47:37):
Yeah, for him it's.
It's it brings him fulfillmentto achieve something like that.
So it's funny, the differentthings that really resonate with
people as what brings themfulfillment and contentment and
a sense of pride in themselvesand what they do.
So yeah, for me it would bedefinitely serving right now.
That's where I'm at.
Years ago it was being a mom,but my kids are growing up.
(48:00):
I have one in college and Ihave one who's 13, but should
babysit my 19 year old, probably.
She's the young.
She's my daughter, she's the 13.
My son's the 19 year old andyou know she'll, she'll take
care of him.
the 19 year old and you knowshe'll take care of him but um,
but they just don't need me likeum they used to, so that that
(48:21):
purpose is now kind of moved onsome.
Cassandra (48:22):
yeah, yeah, interesting.
Yeah, that's what I try to tellmy listeners and my and my
clients that the purpose canchange, you know, yeah, so
whatever you're doing then couldyou know if you're a caregiver,
that could be your purpose atthat time?
Absolutely.
Now the title is Dying, deathand Spiritual Awareness, and you
also said that is how importantit is for telling your story
(48:44):
finding peace through dyingprocess and grief.
So what's the importance of whyyou think the importance of
telling your story and findingpeace through the dying,
processing, grief?
Gretchen (48:57):
Okay, so I I believe it's very important to tell our
stories.
Um, so, when we tell ourstories and we share, we form a
connection to someone as theylisten.
When we listen to someone telltheir story, we start to find
relation.
Oh, that's relatable.
I can understand that.
I understand that.
I see now why they made thatchoice and we offer them grace.
(49:19):
And the more we offer peoplegrace and the more we and we do
it through storytelling.
That's what's so great aboutbeing human.
Um the more we start to realizethat we're all more alike than
we give each other credit for.
Sometimes, and when you knowsomeone's story and they make a
choice you wouldn't have, youlet it slide a little bit,
(49:40):
that's where that grace comes in.
You're like, okay, you know, Iknow, they know better, I'm sure
they're, you know whatever itis that you want to tell
yourself.
But when we do that and we startoffering grace to everyone
around us and a level ofunderstanding and awareness to
everyone around us, that's peaceand that ripples out into the
world, and then the next persondoes it, and the next person
does it, and it all starts withbeing brave enough to be
(50:03):
vulnerable, to share our stories.
Cassandra (50:05):
That's beautiful.
And my book that's my Story,you know is your way and your
way, and just the reviews andpeople I talk to, like you said,
we're more alike than we'redifferent, you know, and they
could really relate.
And I think it took me so longto write my story because I was
in my way, you know, I didn'twant people to know my stuff,
(50:27):
you know, like, oh my gosh,they're going to judge me.
And then I just felt this,knowing, like you, yours is a
different, but it's like you gotto write this book and I'm not
going to leave you alone untilyou do.
And so I did.
One more question for you.
This is great, since you're acatalyst for transformation.
I like for you to leave myaudience inspired and forever
(50:52):
change.
It's like you know, bring,bring your transformation
message to my listeners, butlike, like, like I said on here,
with a profound, transformedperspective on life, death and
the connection that binds us all.
And you may have just said it.
Gretchen (51:07):
Yes, well, I do believe that finding that
connection to every personaround you is what allows us to
to share love and to share aunified feeling with everybody
across the globe, actually, andthere's so many ways that we can
do that, and it starts with,for some of us, being vulnerable
(51:29):
enough to share our stories,like you did and like all of
your listeners who come on hereand share their stories.
I mean all of your listenerswho come on here and share their
stories.
I mean all of your people whoand for for people to also
recognize that everyone makesmistakes, everyone has
challenges in their lives, andwe're not alone in that, and
(51:49):
that's part of the great partabout being human is we get to
have these challenges.
That's one of the reasons Ibelieve, that we came here to
have this experience.
Otherwise, you know, thechallenges are supposed to be
the fun part when they're over.
It's all about how we workthrough that journey.
So I think that we're all heredoing the same thing.
We all chose to come here, allat the same time.
(52:11):
We're all here trying toexperience something fantastic,
and we get to be here.
You get to be here, and it isshort.
This is a short time on thisplanet.
I'm already halfway through, soI'm like what else do I want to
help other people be able to do?
What do I want to leave behind?
So yeah, finding peace withinyourself right now will help you
(52:34):
find peace with others.
Cassandra (52:37):
Wow.
That's why I say I'm in myfourth quarter now.
So what's going on?
I'm in the fourth quarter of mylife.
How, let me ask you, how, canpeople find a death doula?
You can just Google it, you can, ok, all right, ok, how can
individuals get in touch withyou if they'd like to?
Gretchen (52:58):
Sure, I have a website .
It's wwwHelenGretchenJonescom,and my book is available on
Amazon and on BarnesandNoblecom.
It's available in Kindle,audiobook and paperback.
I love audio books myself.
I like to read while I'mrunning errands, so I do too.
Cassandra (53:19):
Yeah, yeah.
And your book is titled healingwhispers from spirit guides.
Yes, wow, that's, that's a lot.
Gretchen (53:28):
There's a lot in there .
There are meditation practices,there are the book is chapters
that have my favorite chapterswith patients, spiritual
experiences and beautifuljourneys towards death that my
patients have had, and apreceding chapter about the
lessons I've learned and wisdomI've gained from working with
(53:49):
the dying community.
Cassandra (53:53):
Wow, gretchen, this was great I could talk to you
longer.
I mean, you've given a lot ofinsight, different perspectives
that I think are something tothink about, and I liked how you
posed the hospice nurse versusthe doula and your role in this
(54:15):
and how you have been a blessingin many people's lives, that
you have worked with um and thefamilies as well, and hopefully
by doing this, the families canget closure.
Yes, yeah, because, as I sharedwith you before we came on, I
still know families that don'teven speak to each other because
(54:36):
the family member passed away,so I don't get that.
Gretchen (54:42):
But it happens a lot, that's right.
And it would be amazing ifthere would be a third party to
come in and sort of navigatethose waters a little bit.
Cassandra (54:50):
Yeah, that would Wow.
Well, thank you so much.
It was, like I said, a pleasureand my listeners I know.
If you know of somebody thatthis would resonate with and I
know you do I ask you to please,please, share it and also it's
going to be on all social mediaplatforms and to share with my
(55:13):
listeners.
Actually, this is the longestpodcast I've ever had, so that
is great.
I'm just so into it, it wasjust so interesting for me and I
appreciate you, Gretchen, andmy listeners.
Again, bye for now.
God bless you and Gretchen.
Bye for now.
Hello to all of my listeners and I'd like to
welcome you to Is your Way Inyour Way podcast, and I am your
host, cassandra Crawley-Mayo,and for those new listeners out
there, let me kind of share withyou what this podcast is all
about.
It's actually about individualswho are stuck, and when I say
stuck, you know that there'scertain things in your heart or
(00:22):
in your belly that you want todo, but you just can't do it.
And you know how we dwell onwhat's our purpose and we're so
focused on trying to figure itout that we never get to it.
Or you want to start a newbusiness, or you want to be a
doula, or you'd like to bepromoted, or you may like to
(00:42):
move somewhere, you may want torelocate, so there are a number
of things.
So this is a podcast that willenable you to have some
self-reflection on the things wetalk about and even some
personal development and somebusiness development things that
we're going to also talk about.
And today let me share what thetopic is.
(01:03):
It's about dying, death andspiritual awareness, and I have
a special guest on by the nameof Helen Gretchen Jones that
you're going to meet in a fewminutes, and in my book for most
of you who've read the book, Ido have a chapter in there and,
as you know, a chapter are loveletters written to women and
(01:24):
this chapter is about dear womenwho have lost a loved one.
So we're going to go a littlebeyond that and Helen is going
to just share some insight thatshe has in reference to the
dying, the death and spiritualawareness.
Okay, well, hello, I see youhave Gretchen on the screen and
(01:49):
I have Helen Gretchen Jones, sodo we call?
Do I call you Gretchen?
Gretchen (01:54):
You can call me Gretchen, or there's just a lot
of Helens in my family.
Helen is my first name, butwe're all named Helen, it seems.
Cassandra (01:59):
Oh, really, how interesting, how interesting.
Well, I'd like to welcome youto Is your Way In your Way
podcast.
It's a pleasure to have you asone of my guests.
Gretchen (02:08):
Thank you so much.
I'm happy to be here.
Cassandra (02:11):
Yeah, I'm going to read your bio for my listeners,
just so they can get a littlebackground on you before we
delve into our topic.
Gretchen is a compassionatedeath doula, intuitive guide and
channeler, dedicated tofostering spiritual
consciousness and deeperconnections.
(02:34):
Through her work with the 18and spirit, she helps others
trust their personal experiencesand embrace messages from
beyond.
She has a dual master's degreein arts, history and theology,
along with certifications andsound bowl therapy.
(02:55):
Is it Reiki?
Reiki, reiki and hypnosis?
She offers a unique blend ofknowledge and intuition.
When she's not guiding hospicepatients or teaching spiritual
seminars, helen enjoys life onher Texas ranch with her family
(03:17):
and their beloved animals.
She's also a number onebestseller for healing whispers
from spirit guides.
So well, from that.
First of all, I'm going to askher now.
Many of you now.
For me, there are quite a fewdoulas, but I always hear doula
in reference to somebody who'spregnant.
(03:37):
You know even a doula after thebaby is born, and so many of
you probably have not heard of adeath doula.
So before we get started,gretchen, what is a death doula?
Gretchen (03:59):
Can you hear me?
I can it froze for a minute,but you're back, okay, great.
What's a death doula?
So a death doula, like a birthdoula doula literally means to
help or guide or assist, and adeath doula is someone who is
helping those who are activelydying or maybe been diagnosed
(04:19):
with a terminal illness to startthe process of transitioning.
So death doulas work with bothpatients and with families to
guide them through the processof dying.
Cassandra (04:30):
Okay, when a person's in hospice, is it any different
than the work that you?
Gretchen (04:37):
do so.
I work with hospice patientsand other different families
privately as well, but hospiceis an amazing resource and tool
in our communities.
It is an opportunity forfamilies to receive medical care
, pain relief medications.
(04:57):
In that sense, volunteers,nurses coming in help with basic
needs of a patient as theyprogress along their journey,
including bathing and differentthings like that.
I've had patients in hospicecare for as long as five years
and that is one of my stickingpoints.
It's that people are so afraidto get on hospice because they
(05:21):
feel like it's the end, it's thefinal goodbye in some ways.
But really it's a valuableresource for all of our
communities and a lot of peopledon't recognize sometimes that
hospice is also charitable.
So even if you don't haveinsurance, you can get on
hospice and be supplied with thenecessary medications and
(05:41):
resources available medicationsand resources available.
Cassandra (05:49):
Wow, when you say charitable, what does that mean?
Because a lot of people youknow like, if I'm not mistaken,
like Medicare, I don't believepays for hospice.
It's a lot of things that theydon't have the resources to get
their family members on hospice,knowing that probably that's
the next best step, that'sprobably what a doctor would
share with their family.
So when you say resource, whattype of resources would they
(06:11):
have?
Gretchen (06:12):
So, for example, if someone they're a nonprofit most
of the time and if they don't,if you don't have insurance or
you have limited funds forhospice, you can qualify to
still get hospice and everything.
You get everything with it.
So you have doctors come tohome visits right, so they'll
(06:34):
come out and visit you, usuallyweekly, but that could vary
based on the needs of thepatient.
Nurses are several times a week, volunteers, that's on whatever
.
Sometimes volunteers can comeand sit with the patient so
they're not lonely.
Perhaps their loved one has togo to work or needs to run to
the grocery store or take ashower.
Being a caregiver is verytaxing, so hospice allows a
(06:57):
little bit of relief in thatsense for caregivers.
Cassandra (07:00):
Okay, so when there's an individual that would need
those resources, they just go toa charitable organization
cancer or what type oforganization, Catholic or refer
(07:24):
you to hospice and it's their.
Gretchen (07:26):
Their standards for referring to hospice are really
simple.
It's if they believe that theyare, it's if they would not be
surprised if you were to die inthe next six months.
If a doctor says I wouldn't besurprised if you died in the
next six months and it could beyou could.
Like I said earlier, I've had apatient on there for five years
.
It's it's very, very lenient,but it's very, very helpful.
Cassandra (07:46):
That's great information.
Thanks for sharing that.
Now, what I'd like to know isbefore you got your education,
your degree in history andtheology, tell us a little bit
about your backstory.
What was going on as you weregrowing up?
Backstory what was going onwhen you as you were growing up?
Gretchen (08:05):
So when I was growing up, my family was my grandmother
was a seven-day Adventist, myfather was an atheist, later
agnostic, my we were raisedPresbyterian, so we had all
(08:26):
these different faiths coming in.
I had friends who were Hinduand Muslim and as I moved
through college and I just hadso many, I don't know I just
felt like someone had to beright, someone had to have the
answers.
So when I started studying arthistory, I was looking for
answers and all the differenttypes of types of art,
iconography and and you know,all the way back to cave
paintings.
I'm like where are the answers?
(08:47):
And when I got degrees intheology, I was comparing
different world religions,trying to figure out what was
right.
And what I discovered along theway, because I had had
spiritual experiences even as akid, was what I could really
trust for my own beautiful waswhat I could really trust for my
own beautiful, very loving.
I believe in a God, insomething that is all
(09:14):
encompassing all that is.
And that's what I feel when Ihave these spiritual experiences
and I don't know, I felt likereligion as a religion offers
some really amazing structuresand community for a lot of
people who really, really needthat.
But as a whole, I think thatI'm more geared towards
spiritual experiences assomething that drives me more
(09:35):
than a specific structuredreligion.
Cassandra (09:39):
Okay, Now talk about some of those spiritual
experiences.
What are those?
What do they look like?
Gretchen (09:47):
So are you referring to in my childhood, or when I'm
sitting bedside with patients?
Cassandra (09:53):
In your childhood, as you were growing up, because
something led you to this, whichyou're currently doing, and
we'll get to that.
But what was going on?
Experiences when you were achild?
Gretchen (10:05):
So we had me and my sister Gwen.
We were we're a year apart, sowe're very close in age, and my
family was a little bit, I don'tknow.
My mom got married a lot and wewere, we were.
(10:25):
We went to go live with mygrandmother, off and on a lot.
I say we probably lived withher as much as we lived with our
mom, and so there was a littlebit of I didn't.
I didn't have that control orthat structure that I yearned
for as a kid, and so when I feltoverwhelmed or I don't know, a
little like I wasn't unsureabout myself or my surroundings,
(10:47):
I would go sit in a bathtubwhere I knew no one would bother
me, just an empty bathtub, andI would just focus on the
silence.
And sometimes during that timeI would have a spiritual
experience that would make mefeel that everything was going
to be okay, that everything wasokay, that I had nothing to fear
(11:09):
, and so that that experienceand those voices or those beings
of light helped me along myjourney.
Cassandra (11:17):
Ever since then, as long as I can remember, While
you were having, so this is notthe only spiritual experience
you had as a child, um, but asyou were having, these did you
share it with anyone what youwere going through, what your
experiences were.
Gretchen (11:35):
I did and I, when I shared it with my dad, he said I
believe you believe that's whatyou saw.
You know he was.
It was disappointing to hearthat, but these experiences were
so transformative that it didnot make me question the wisdom
of the information comingthrough.
It made me question the wisdomof my parents If they didn't
understand what was happening orwhat was going on.
(11:57):
Perhaps they didn't know asmuch as I thought, maybe they
should, as my parents as alittle kid.
Cassandra (12:02):
When.
Gretchen (12:03):
I told my grandmother she was scared.
It was something very fearfulfor her.
She thought it could be, in herwords, like the work of the
devil sort of thing, because shecame from a very fear-based
upbringing around being able toconnect on a spiritual level.
(12:24):
So I kind of find that ironic,because I think in many
Christian religions being ableto connect to God is something
that everyone strives for, sobeing able to connect to angels
or whatever.
So these were beings of lightand they never had anything.
Everything that ever emanatedfrom them was beautiful and warm
(12:47):
and loving and it was alwayspositive.
But I think it was still ascary concept for my grandmother
.
Cassandra (12:53):
Yeah, so when you you had these experiences, you
believe it.
Did you believe it was Godgiven to you or an angel or
light, Like, did something, saysomething to you?
Was it something done thattransformed you and you just
(13:13):
came way out, Just you know, gotout of yourself, no longer
stuck in this thing?
Gretchen (13:20):
Yes.
So no one ever came to me andsaid I am God or I am an angel
or I am of the light.
They were all of those things.
I'll tell you what it felt like.
It felt like home.
It felt like a remembering.
It felt like, oh yeah, ofcourse this is right.
It just felt exactly rightwhere I was supposed to be.
(13:43):
Everything felt okay.
I wasn't fearful in any way.
It felt like an old friend or aloved one, a companion, someone
who has always been there forme, would love me, no matter
what.
That.
I felt this deep love for themand it was really more of a.
It felt bigger than me, sort oflike a collective, and I
(14:07):
associate God with everything.
You know.
God is in me, god is in everyanimal, every plant, every being
.
So that's sort of what it feelslike, okay.
Cassandra (14:21):
You went to.
You had a certain education,you indicated because you were
very curious.
You know and put stuff together.
I think curiosity is wonderful.
I actually see that as beingvery wise.
When an individual is curious,let's go into.
(14:42):
Okay, what made you?
Okay, let me ask you this, why?
Let me ask you your why.
Why, what's your why behindbeing a death doula?
Gretchen (14:55):
So my father transitioned in 2015 and he was
only in his fifties, so that'spretty young.
And he passed away of cirrhosisof the liver.
Okay, so his my passing wasunexpected for many members in
my family.
It was not for me.
I'd had a vision five monthsbefore that that he was going to
(15:18):
be transitioning and so Iunderstood when it happened that
it wasn't something unexpected.
But my sister Victoria I haveanother sister, victoria she had
not had closure with my fatherwhen he transitioned and there
was a lot of grief and anger andupset around that.
And it was heartbreaking,heartbreaking.
(15:41):
I can't even tell you theamount of closure that was not
able to happen with my familyand my dad, and when that
happened, I thought, gosh, if Icould change anything with
anyone else, it'd be a way toalleviate not having closure,
(16:02):
not recognizing what's importantat end of life, not taking the
opportunity to be vulnerable andsay what needs to be said.
And so when I heard aboutbecoming I heard the
certification for a death doulaand what they do I thought this
is my chance.
This is my chance to work withfamilies and patients so that
they have closure at end of lifeand we don't have to have a
repeat of what happened with myfamily and my father.
Cassandra (16:19):
OK, ok, interesting.
So you talked about, was it anNDE, like near death experiences
?
So experience is shared, shareddeath.
Gretchen (16:32):
Yes, ok, ok.
Shared death experience.
Is it shared?
Shared death yes.
Cassandra (16:35):
Okay, so it's not near death, it's shared, correct
, okay, okay.
Well, I won't ask itself aquestion.
Gretchen (16:44):
Well, I find that shared death experiences have
some similarities with NDEs.
Actually, oh do they In what?
way.
So whenever, at the end of life,whenever someone is about to
take their final breath it'sbeen my experience so far
because I'm able to see spiritsstanding outside of their bodies
I'm able to see these peoplestanding outside of their bodies
(17:07):
before that final breath istaken, and the reason this is
important is because it means wedon't have to suffer.
So many people are afraid to goto sleep whenever they're in the
process of dying.
They're afraid they're notgoing to wake back up or they're
afraid, with every breath theytake, it might be their last one
.
There's going to be a shift andit's going to get harder and
(17:27):
harder, and they worry aboutthat last breath being a
stressful breath that couldimply suffering.
But what I'm discovering isthat people are actually
standing outside of their body.
Their body is going through thenatural process of shutting
down and returning to the earth,but the soul of that person is
safely observing.
This is supported through NDEexperiencers when they say oh, I
(17:50):
was, you know they were doingCPR on me.
They were, you know, had allthe monitors hooked up and I was
at the ceiling on the house inthe hospital because you don't
be in your body for that momentof suffering.
The only difference between mypatients and the people who are
NDEers is mine continue to theirwelcome home party and to the
other side, whereas NDEersreturn back to their body once
(18:13):
the hard part is over thesuffering and the cracking of
the ribs and the CPR and all ofthat stuff.
Cassandra (18:20):
So that even happens, like if someone was tragically
killed right In an accident, youknow, just boom, either on an
airplane, you know.
So they will then still seetheir what do you call it?
An outer body, or would theystill see themselves?
Gretchen (18:44):
I believe that they shift their focus.
So we are spirits and we arealways spirit and we are
utilizing a human earthly bodyas a vehicle in which to have
experiences that have abeginning and an end.
In our earthly world we havetime and we use it, and we need
(19:05):
it because it allows us to exitour experience.
We don't want to be here inhuman bodies for eternity.
No, we are souls.
That would be so boring.
We are souls who want to have abeginning and an end to our
physical experience, so there'sno need for us to experience
suffering.
As we shift our focus out ofour bodies, we can let the body
(19:25):
go, and we do, quite naturally,even if an airplane's going down
, we pop out of our pop outright before collision.
Cassandra (19:34):
Yeah, yeah, because I have heard individuals say, you
know, as someone istransitioning, they can see them
.
I've heard that see theirbodies moving.
And I also had another guestwho did had a near death
experience and she talked abouthow she saw herself.
She saw people working on herbody, you know, and that was
(19:57):
unbelievable.
Because, well, let me ask youthis why do you think people
shun from even talking aboutthis, about death?
They don't even want to talkabout it, you know?
Why do you think that is?
Gretchen (20:14):
Now I've given this a lot of thought and actually, if
I were to just be real practicalabout it, I think it happens
back during during wartime.
Specifically, I believe it wasthe Civil War, where embalming
started, that's where trying toget soldiers back home across
(20:38):
state lines and different areas,so that we started utilizing
embalming and putting them sothat their bodies would stay
longer before they can make itback home.
Once we started having removingdeath from the home and from
the family, it becomes somethingthat's distant from us.
So someone gets sick, we putthem in the hospital, we put
them in a nursing home they'reaway from our private home.
Some stay in the home, andthat's great if they can and
(21:01):
then after that we send them offto be embalmed or cremated or
and then someone else takes careof the aftercare of the body
after that dies.
And then someone else embalmsthem, someone else puts them in
the ground.
I mean there's, it's someoneelse always doing the work to
care for our, our, our dying andour and our dead.
(21:22):
So, with so far removed.
Generations and generations goby and we start to have um.
Death becomes something alittle bit uncomfortable for us,
Something that's unknown,something that's done by other
people, not us.
That's when I think it shifted,just from a practical
standpoint, when we stoppedpersonally caring for our dying
(21:44):
and dead.
Cassandra (21:47):
It's like nope, we don't have control because we
don't understand it or we don't.
I've had people say I don'twant to talk about it and
they're adamant about it.
I don't care what you do withmy stuff, they just you know,
I've heard people say that andeven though and when I was
sharing about the chapter in mybook I kind of talked about what
(22:08):
individuals wishes, it's just,it's just weird how, how they
don't plan but they plan for ababy or they plan for a marriage
or wedding, but why not planfor something so sacred but, as
you indicated, that sounds about, I would kind of say that
practically why we shun from it.
Share with us your mosttransformative experiences with
(22:35):
the patient.
Do you have any?
I bet you do.
I have a.
Gretchen (22:40):
I have a lot and I've had several that are very, very
transformative.
I am not sure which one toshare.
One of my favorite ones toshare is Mrs Wilma.
Of course, I have changed theirnames to protect their privacy.
Mrs Wilma was a patient of NODA, changed their names to protect
their privacy.
Mrs Wilma was a patient of NODA,and NODA stands for no One Dies
(23:00):
Alone.
It's a hospital-based programin many cities across our
country.
What NODA is and I'm going totalk a little bit really quick
NODA is a volunteer organization.
When someone starts to activelydie, which means the last 72
hours, they send out an emailblast to all of their note of
volunteers and you sign up.
(23:20):
Yeah, oh, it's fantastic.
You sign up for three hourshifts and you go and you sit
with these patients.
Um, and these are people who aredying alone, people who maybe
never had children, maybe afamily can't afford to fly in
where they're at, maybe theywere kind of jerks and burned
all those bridges and no onewants to be there for a number
of reasons.
People are dying alone.
(23:42):
Yeah, yeah, wow, yeah.
So Mrs Wilma was a Noda patientand I signed up for her shift
and when I go in to sit with mypatients.
I like to do a little bit of aprayer or a meditation.
I set my intention before goingin and then I do it again when
(24:02):
I see my patient.
I'll sit with her.
Mrs Milma was elderly, she was,I believe, in her nineties, she
was black and she was um.
She did have family.
They just couldn't afford tocome in and she was um very,
very peaceful and I sat thereand I played um hymns.
(24:27):
I knew she was Baptist, so Iplayed on my phone and as I sat
down to sort of like hold herhand and pray with her, a young
version of her walked in theroom.
At first I thought it was areal person, because it can feel
so real sometimes.
But she presented herself asaround the age of 10 or 12 years
(24:50):
old and she also was in blackand white and that's a symbol
for me.
When I see spirit in black andwhite, this puts them in the
years of 1920s to 1969respectively, and I think that's
because my husband's aphotographer and those were the
years of black and whitephotography.
So I think it's just my ownsymbol.
(25:11):
So she appears, she was dressedin her Sunday best and her hair
was twisted in these cutelittle pigtails and she walks
over and takes my other hand.
So my left hand is holding MrsWilma's right hand in the
hospital room and she comes andtakes my left hand and as she
does, the hospital transformsinto like this forest, like a
(25:34):
forest.
I am aware that I'm still in thehospital holding physical Mr
Mrs Wilma's hand and I'm alsoaware of being in a forest with
young Mrs Wilma and, withoutsaying words, she's talking.
She's not using her mouth, it'sjust information coming in and
she says do you see this onetree?
(25:59):
She was showing me this treeLike do you see this one tree?
This one tree is growing inthis forest and every root
coming off of this tree believesit's an individual root, it's
its own life.
Every little root that'sbranching off of this other
bigger root believes it's itsown individual life.
Every branch coming off thistree believes it's its own life.
(26:20):
Every single leaf believes it'sits own life.
But it isn't.
It's all connected.
All of it is serving the greaterwhole of this tree.
And when you look at this treeit's all part of this forest.
It believes it's its own tree,and yet it's not.
It's part of this forest.
It believes it's its own tree,and yet it's not.
It's part of this larger forest.
(26:40):
You pull back even further it'spart of this larger ecosystem.
We're all connected.
We are all one, and that waswhat she was teaching, and she
was teaching the importance ofconnection and self-awareness
through connection.
Yeah, but I also had thisoverwhelming sense, when she was
holding my hand, of segregation, right.
So she experienced segregationas a child, which is separation,
(27:03):
and then she had separationfrom her family throughout her
life, and then here she was,dying alone.
So what was almost thisoverarching theme of separation?
The true beauty behind it was alesson of connection and being
unified, and so that was one ofthe profound experiences that I
had with Mrs Wilma.
Cassandra (27:23):
Wow, when you were telling that story and you
talked about how you knew whather religion was.
She was Baptist and it made meremember a quote in the Bible
that says I'm the vine andyou're the branch and and and.
You can't do anything if you'renot stay connected with me.
(27:44):
Also, it's like you know.
Then there's fruit on on thebranches as well.
And when you talk about theconnection part I thought about
in the Bible, it talks about howGod says we're all one.
You know, if you're a believer,we're all connected.
So I just find that interesting, because we all have different
perspectives.
But if I didn't know what youshared about her faith, then
(28:07):
that probably would not haveeven come up.
But yet it's still all aboutconnection, you know, which to
me maybe was a lesson learnedfor you.
I don't know, but I just saw itin the biblical standpoint of
what she was, the words you saidshe shared your perspective,
(28:28):
not that she shared with you,but what you got out of that
story.
Gretchen (28:31):
My interpretation of what she was sharing.
Yeah, exactly.
Cassandra (28:35):
Exactly Now.
You said before you go into apatient, you set your intention.
What are your intentionsdifferent from each one, or are
they basically the same?
Gretchen (28:47):
Basically the same before I go in.
It is that I serve them fortheir highest and greatest good,
and I've now changed that tothat I be of service for the
highest and greatest good of allinvolved, not just for them,
right?
So it should be everythingconnected.
So that's what I do.
And then when I see my patient,I just kind of sit down and
(29:11):
pray and I, I just I just sendso much love um to them and then
intuitively, I sort of let myprayers guide me after I'm
sitting with my patient.
Cassandra (29:24):
Interesting.
Um, does your so?
The the ones that you said?
Um, no one dies alone, but theindividuals that have family
that come and be with them andyou're there.
Have you ever had any hesitancyor reluctancy from those
(29:47):
families?
Because I see you havesimilarities for a hospice
person, nurse or whatever, butyou definitely have different
ways of doing things.
You have what I call a gift.
What about the families ofthose individuals?
Are they resisting you?
What have some of thoseexperiences been like for them
(30:09):
and for you?
Gretchen (30:12):
So I'm not medically trained, so I can't administer
medication.
So that's where I differ from anurse.
Okay, nurses now are requiredto do so much more paperwork
(30:34):
than they had to do before, andso they're not able to spend as
much one-on-one time with thepatients as they used to be able
to do, which I imagine is theirfavorite part.
Yes, yeah.
So that's, I think, where theposition sort of evolved.
Um, when I am working withhospice or if I am hired as a
(30:54):
private death doula for a family, it depends on who hires me.
So sometimes I'm hired by thepatient and sometimes I'm hired
by the family.
So if the family hires me, it'sthe patient that they felt that
they couldn't get through to,and that can be a little more
challenging.
Cassandra (31:11):
Okay, uh-huh Okay.
Gretchen (31:13):
But it's very important to recognize that when
you go in and sit with a familyor a patient or both, that you
know what their faith is.
And that's one of the thingsthat has been very, very helpful
with my degree in theology ishaving a very deep appreciation
and understanding of differentworld religions and
(31:34):
understanding of different worldreligions.
So when at end of life, whenpatients are having visions or
seeing deceased loved ones orhaving these beautiful spiritual
experiences, sometimes it canseem contradictory to their
faith and it's very important tobe able to understand what the
faith is and help help navigatethat within the confines of the
(31:56):
faith, perspectives of the faith, so that your whole reason that
you're there is to bring peaceand to bring closure for family
and the patient.
So, for example, I had, um, oneof my patients was a Catholic
nun, uh, sister Bernadette, andshe was lovely.
She was a nurse her whole lifeand worked in a hospital and
(32:18):
here she was dying now in thehospital, and so she had a very
supportive community.
Everyone loves sisterBernadette and when we uh one
time she came in and she goesclose the door I have a
confession to make and I thought, do I need to go get a priest.
It was kind of, you know, spicy.
She was sometimes and she says,no, I want you to tell, I want
(32:38):
to tell you that my friend, mysister, mary Catherine, has been
visiting me and I was like, oh,that's great, you know.
And she goes no, you don'tunderstand, she's already gone
to our Lord, our Lord father.
So I was just like, oh, andshe's been not only visiting,
but she's been chatting with her, and she was very adamant that
(32:59):
communing with the dead wentagainst her Catholic faith.
And so, in an attempt to sortof guide that process a little
bit, I said, no, you talk tomother Mary, you talk to Jesus,
you talk to God, you know, you,you talk to dead all the time
and she goes no, I pray to them,I don't commune with them.
So, in her mind, she wasn'thaving an active conversation
(33:22):
with them.
She was expressing gratitudetowards them and asking them for
some things and never having anactive conversation.
And I think that's where shedrew the line with her faith.
Of course, everything'sperspective, we can shift it
Absolutely, and so I think whatwe ended up doing was we talked
about how, perhaps, like whenArchangel Gabriel visited Mother
(33:47):
Mary and told her she was goingto have Jesus, that that was a
vision that she had and I saidperhaps Sister Mary Catherine is
a messenger of God as a visionfor you and perhaps we can
approach it that way.
She's like, oh okay, I needtime to kind of think about that
a little bit.
But it helped her be able thento interact with that vision of
(34:10):
Sister Mary Catherine and beable to take on the beautiful
loving messages as they preparedfor their trip.
Sister Mary Catherine wastelling able to take on the
beautiful loving messages asthey prepared for their trip.
Sister Mary Catherine wastelling her they were going to
be taking a trip.
So so if you understandsomeone's faith, and you
understand how to shift aperspective that includes the
loving, beautiful spiritualexperiences that are happening.
(34:32):
Well then, that definitelyoffers closure.
Cassandra (34:38):
That's beautiful, that's that, and you're right, a
lot does have to do with thereligion that they are, you know
, and that's their belief andthat's what they're going to go
with, and I think it's awesomeof you to study those religions
so you can, too, understand.
And obviously, it's no judgment.
(35:00):
You're not there to judge.
You're there to love them andprovide them with comfort as
they transition.
Now, do you believe individualsmay have visions, but they're
not transitioning?
Have you ever heard that before?
Gretchen (35:18):
I have visions and I'm not transitioning.
Cassandra (35:21):
Exactly, exactly.
Are your visions similar, orare they just at random, or do
they come often?
Tell me about those visions.
I'm interested because I've hadone, just one.
Gretchen (35:40):
And I was like what was your vision?
Cassandra (35:42):
Well, my vision was I was at work and when I went in
my office and everything in myoffice was turned around the
desk, the chairs, the plant wasover here.
My desk was spotless, mydrawers were spotless, and
(36:03):
throughout the day I was angrybecause I thought somebody came
in my office and changed itaround without telling me and
this went off for the entire day.
So when I had my employees cometo me, I would look at them
strange and they're like isanything wrong with you?
I'm like no.
And then I asked somebody.
I said did you come in andchange my desk?
They were looking at me like no, and I was like well, what is?
(36:27):
And it bothered me all day longand I was blaming my employees.
I'm like I know you use likeeverything was in order,
everything OK, and not that Ihad a.
Maybe my office was in disarray, but it wasn't like I had it
before.
And then at the end of the daymy office came back to how it
(36:52):
was and I was like what in theworld was that?
And I asked my minister yes,people have visions.
And you know he said well, yeah, he said tell me about it.
And then, you know, he kind ofshared with me, because there
was a lot of chaos in the hotelwith employees.
You know they would argue witheach other, they would oh, it
(37:14):
was just crazy.
And he said what's going tohappen is things are going to
get back in order where you work, and it and it did.
People start leaving, newpeople started coming in.
So that was my only vision Ihad.
Then I'm like I want to haveanother one, but I've not ever
had another one so far.
Gretchen (37:32):
Well, that was a spontaneous vision then.
Cassandra (37:38):
It's.
Yes, it was.
Gretchen (37:38):
It was so what type of visions do you have.
I've had spontaneous visions,but I have now I have a more
developed practice.
So when I sit down to pray ormeditate, I do that regularly
and I receive.
I'm very, very visual and Ireceive visions every time,
every time.
I do that now, as I receive,I'm very, very visual and I
receive visions every time,every time.
I do that now as part of mypractice, and so I utilize that
(38:01):
village, that vision, to helpguide my, the challenges in my
life or the challenges otherpeople are experiencing and of
course there are.
There's, like you were saying,there's no judgment, there's
it's just where a person is ontheir path.
So if I receive information, Idon't have to tell that person
(38:23):
necessarily.
Like, for example, when I sawthat my dad was going to die, I
didn't go tell my dad, I sawthat you're going to die.
Yeah, you know that, that, whatyou know, what I think is
happening around that, because Iwill frequently now, because
I'm working with people who aredying so often, I will
frequently get visions around aballpark of when someone's going
(38:43):
to die five months, you know,four weeks, something like that.
And it is they've never justsaid.
You know October 7th at youknow 9am.
No one's ever it's not like that.
It's definitely a ballpark, butI think the reason that that is
happening and this has beenwhat I'm journaling and trying
to get my head around is I don'tget to be privy to someone's
(39:07):
death as if it's written instone.
I believe that once I receive aballpark that someone's going
to transition, it's because, ona soul level, that when I
receive a ballpark thatsomeone's going to transition,
it's because on a soul level,that has been decided, and then
I'm able to pick up on thatinformation like a wave of
information around me.
It isn't like I can stop it.
I don't think it's meant to bestopped and I also think that
(39:28):
it's something that you know issomething that I have to go tell
someone right away.
It's because on a soul levelthat's already been decided for
them, maybe by them, maybe byGod, maybe by both, maybe they
are God, it doesn't matter.
And then I think that's when Ibecome aware of it, so that I
can work with them and thefamily to navigate peace and
closure in those final moments.
(39:49):
It doesn't have to be aboutguess what I just figured out.
You're gonna be dying inOctober.
Cassandra (39:54):
guess what I just figured out, you're going to be
dying in October, exactly,exactly.
That's interesting, and Ididn't consider those as visions
.
But I have dreams and I haven'thad them lately, like I usually
do.
But I would dream if somebodywas going to pass, or I would
dream if somebody was going toget a promotion, but I never
would tell that person.
And I don't know if I didn'ttell him because maybe that
wasn't going to happen or I justfelt that that was something
(40:17):
that I should keep to myself andI would tell my mom.
You know, my mom said oh, Ibelieve you were born with a
veil over your face.
I don't know if you ever heardthat.
Like yeah, she said, I think youwere born with a veil over your
face.
I'm like really, wow, you know.
So I didn't, I wasn't afraid,but it was just unusual, you
know.
And then I would have my momsay did you dream anything about
(40:38):
me the other night.
I said I don't think it workslike that.
I don't think it works likethat, but I didn't consider
those.
I just say those were my dreamsthat I had.
You know I can, I can interpretsome dreams.
Sometimes that's somewhat of agift of mine, so that's
interesting.
Gretchen (40:54):
I think that's beautiful.
I would love to get more dreams.
I mean, that is fantasticReally, yeah.
Cassandra (41:01):
Yeah, and when I have them, I I I never finish them,
and I think that's why Iremember them, because I'm right
in the middle of them.
But if I finish them, then Idon't remember them.
But if I'm right in the middleand I wake up, I'm like, oh my
gosh, yeah, cause I had one theother day which was kind of
weird, and I have a dream bookand that helps me interpret the
dream.
So I keep saying I'm going to,I'm going to look in that book,
(41:23):
but I don't know what it's goingto say.
I don't know if I want to knowthat or not.
So, yeah, that's reallyinteresting how we were created
and wired.
That's what I'll say.
That's what I'll say.
Another question and I know youtalk to your patients there's a
hospice nurse by the name ofBonnie Ware.
(41:45):
I don't know if you've everheard of her, but what she did
was she was interested inindividuals' regrets as they
were transitioning.
So she interviewed them, shegot permission and it was
amazing the regrets people had,you know, and and three of them.
I'm like, okay, I can get it.
I work too hard, I don't spendenough time with family, I wish
(42:06):
I would travel, but there weretwo regrets that really stuck
with me and I think I knowthat's what got me on my mission
is I wish I were happier, theywould say, and I wish I was more
true to myself.
And that's what they would say.
And I was like that's so weird.
Why weren't they happier, whycouldn't they be more true to
themselves?
(42:26):
So the patients that you'vespoken with, have they ever
talked about their lives, likewhat's happened in their lives
or any?
Gretchen (42:34):
regrets or anything.
Yes, and I think that that'simportant.
I haven't heard the happier oneas much, because all of them
are unhappy, but that's notwhere they're focused, because
most of them are not justthrilled that they're dying,
right, okay, but I have heardthe true to themselves.
It's one of the biggest ones Iget, and here's why, okay, and
(42:57):
my thought is I'm the people whoI'm talking to who are
expressing that are elderly,they're in their eighties and
their nineties.
That was a different time.
That was a time when it reallymattered about what your
reputation was, what otherpeople thought of you, what the
(43:18):
community thought of you.
That's getting less and less.
Now People don't care as much.
They'll say and do anythingonline these days community
standards and that there were,you know, you don't?
You don't?
you know you couldn't be outwith a boy too late or it might
(43:41):
look bad you know, and youcouldn't dance too close, and
you know, I mean, there werejust all these social rules that
really mattered.
So people shifted their livesand lived their lives based
around what they thought otherpeople were going to think, what
they feared other people mightthink, and it was a very
judgmental time in my thought.
So when I'm helping people whoare of that age transition, they
(44:05):
start to recognize now how manyof their decisions were based
around their thoughts of whatother people might think versus
what they really wanted to do.
Cassandra (44:14):
Interesting.
Have you been with anyoneyounger and and experienced
their thoughts, what they werethinking, that weren't at that
age.
Gretchen (44:25):
My youngest patient was, um, almost was in their
late twenties, early thirties,being vague Um and um, that
person, um.
And then I had another patientwho was in her uh, forties and
they were um.
I'm going to talk about thewoman in her forties.
(44:46):
The woman in her forties, um,she was an alcoholic and so she
still very much felt not at alllike she lived her life for
someone else, but she did feellike things were done.
She was very much sort ofvictimized throughout her life
(45:06):
is sort of her perspective.
And so, even in death, this wasbeing done to her and there
seemed to be a lot less.
There appears to be a lot lessownership or responsibility
based on actions and some of myyounger patients they feel more
like look what life has done tome, instead of a victim.
(45:30):
Yeah, so I mean, that's just.
I mean I have, luckily I havemore experience with people who
are elderly than I do with myyounger patients, but that is
something that I've noticedinteresting.
Cassandra (45:44):
Um gretchen, uh, you know, people are really, uh, and
I I was like this too as I wasgrowing up and wondered what my
purpose was.
You know, and there is a ladyby the name of, I think her name
is Garci, she's one hundred andthree years old.
She has been, oh, she's been,on the Internet.
(46:07):
You know, people areinterviewing her and she's a
doctor and she was talking about, of course, she has a lot of
wisdom because of her age, andshe was saying that one of the
there were five reasons orsomething.
You know that that makes peoplehappy, and she talked about
having a meaning in life, likethey have to know their purpose,
(46:29):
because you're not here just tobe here, you're here for a
reason, and then you're going togo on, and I believe that
because right now, even thoughyour purpose can change over
time, but I'm pretty clear rightnow what mine is, do you know
what yours is?
Is it what you're?
Gretchen (46:47):
doing you think so?
I believe that we all have.
We're all multi-purposed.
I think that we're here formany reasons.
I believe one of my purposes isto serve.
It's what brings me fulfillment, and so having that fulfillment
obviously means I'm content andhappy.
It doesn't mean I don'tcontinue to set goals and strive
(47:07):
for new and different things,of course, but right now,
serving the dying community isright where I'm supposed to be,
and that will probably change.
I haven't always served thedying community, but I do feel
serving is something thatdefinitely brings me fulfillment
.
You know, I asked my husbandthe same question.
I was like, what brings youfulfillment?
(47:27):
And he said he said providingfor my family, and so I always
thought of that as being areally big responsibility.
Cassandra (47:36):
Yes.
Gretchen (47:37):
Yeah, for him it's.
It's it brings him fulfillmentto achieve something like that.
So it's funny, the differentthings that really resonate with
people as what brings themfulfillment and contentment and
a sense of pride in themselvesand what they do.
So yeah, for me it would bedefinitely serving right now.
That's where I'm at.
Years ago it was being a mom,but my kids are growing up.
(48:00):
I have one in college and Ihave one who's 13, but should
babysit my 19 year old, probably.
She's the young.
She's my daughter, she's the 13.
My son's the 19 year old andyou know she'll, she'll take
care of him.
the 19 year old and you knowshe'll take care of him but um,
but they just don't need me likeum they used to, so that that
(48:21):
purpose is now kind of moved onsome.
Cassandra (48:22):
yeah, yeah, interesting.
Yeah, that's what I try to tellmy listeners and my and my
clients that the purpose canchange, you know, yeah, so
whatever you're doing then couldyou know if you're a caregiver,
that could be your purpose atthat time?
Absolutely.
Now the title is Dying, deathand Spiritual Awareness, and you
also said that is how importantit is for telling your story
(48:44):
finding peace through dyingprocess and grief.
So what's the importance of whyyou think the importance of
telling your story and findingpeace through the dying,
processing, grief?
Gretchen (48:57):
Okay, so I I believe it's very important to tell our
stories.
Um, so, when we tell ourstories and we share, we form a
connection to someone as theylisten.
When we listen to someone telltheir story, we start to find
relation.
Oh, that's relatable.
I can understand that.
I understand that.
I see now why they made thatchoice and we offer them grace.
(49:19):
And the more we offer peoplegrace and the more we and we do
it through storytelling.
That's what's so great aboutbeing human.
Um the more we start to realizethat we're all more alike than
we give each other credit for.
Sometimes, and when you knowsomeone's story and they make a
choice you wouldn't have, youlet it slide a little bit,
(49:40):
that's where that grace comes in.
You're like, okay, you know, Iknow, they know better, I'm sure
they're, you know whatever itis that you want to tell
yourself.
But when we do that and we startoffering grace to everyone
around us and a level ofunderstanding and awareness to
everyone around us, that's peaceand that ripples out into the
world, and then the next persondoes it, and the next person
does it, and it all starts withbeing brave enough to be
(50:03):
vulnerable, to share our stories.
Cassandra (50:05):
That's beautiful.
And my book that's my Story,you know is your way and your
way, and just the reviews andpeople I talk to, like you said,
we're more alike than we'redifferent, you know, and they
could really relate.
And I think it took me so longto write my story because I was
in my way, you know, I didn'twant people to know my stuff,
(50:27):
you know, like, oh my gosh,they're going to judge me.
And then I just felt this,knowing, like you, yours is a
different, but it's like you gotto write this book and I'm not
going to leave you alone untilyou do.
And so I did.
One more question for you.
This is great, since you're acatalyst for transformation.
I like for you to leave myaudience inspired and forever
(50:52):
change.
It's like you know, bring,bring your transformation
message to my listeners, butlike, like, like I said on here,
with a profound, transformedperspective on life, death and
the connection that binds us all.
And you may have just said it.
Gretchen (51:07):
Yes, well, I do believe that finding that
connection to every personaround you is what allows us to
to share love and to share aunified feeling with everybody
across the globe, actually, andthere's so many ways that we can
do that, and it starts with,for some of us, being vulnerable
(51:29):
enough to share our stories,like you did and like all of
your listeners who come on hereand share their stories.
I mean all of your listenerswho come on here and share their
stories.
I mean all of your people whoand for for people to also
recognize that everyone makesmistakes, everyone has
challenges in their lives, andwe're not alone in that, and
(51:49):
that's part of the great partabout being human is we get to
have these challenges.
That's one of the reasons Ibelieve, that we came here to
have this experience.
Otherwise, you know, thechallenges are supposed to be
the fun part when they're over.
It's all about how we workthrough that journey.
So I think that we're all heredoing the same thing.
We all chose to come here, allat the same time.
(52:11):
We're all here trying toexperience something fantastic,
and we get to be here.
You get to be here, and it isshort.
This is a short time on thisplanet.
I'm already halfway through, soI'm like what else do I want to
help other people be able to do?
What do I want to leave behind?
So yeah, finding peace withinyourself right now will help you
(52:34):
find peace with others.
Cassandra (52:37):
Wow.
That's why I say I'm in myfourth quarter now.
So what's going on?
I'm in the fourth quarter of mylife.
How, let me ask you, how, canpeople find a death doula?
You can just Google it, you can, ok, all right, ok, how can
individuals get in touch withyou if they'd like to?
Gretchen (52:58):
Sure, I have a website .
It's wwwHelenGretchenJonescom,and my book is available on
Amazon and on BarnesandNoblecom.
It's available in Kindle,audiobook and paperback.
I love audio books myself.
I like to read while I'mrunning errands, so I do too.
Cassandra (53:19):
Yeah, yeah.
And your book is titled healingwhispers from spirit guides.
Yes, wow, that's, that's a lot.
Gretchen (53:28):
There's a lot in there .
There are meditation practices,there are the book is chapters
that have my favorite chapterswith patients, spiritual
experiences and beautifuljourneys towards death that my
patients have had, and apreceding chapter about the
lessons I've learned and wisdomI've gained from working with
(53:49):
the dying community.
Cassandra (53:53):
Wow, gretchen, this was great I could talk to you
longer.
I mean, you've given a lot ofinsight, different perspectives
that I think are something tothink about, and I liked how you
posed the hospice nurse versusthe doula and your role in this
(54:15):
and how you have been a blessingin many people's lives, that
you have worked with um and thefamilies as well, and hopefully
by doing this, the families canget closure.
Yes, yeah, because, as I sharedwith you before we came on, I
still know families that don'teven speak to each other because
(54:36):
the family member passed away,so I don't get that.
Gretchen (54:42):
But it happens a lot, that's right.
And it would be amazing ifthere would be a third party to
come in and sort of navigatethose waters a little bit.
Cassandra (54:50):
Yeah, that would Wow.
Well, thank you so much.
It was, like I said, a pleasureand my listeners I know.
If you know of somebody thatthis would resonate with and I
know you do I ask you to please,please, share it and also it's
going to be on all social mediaplatforms and to share with my
(55:13):
listeners.
Actually, this is the longestpodcast I've ever had, so that
is great.
I'm just so into it, it wasjust so interesting for me and I
appreciate you, Gretchen, andmy listeners.
Again, bye for now.
God bless you and Gretchen.
Bye for now.
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