March 14, 2025 • 45 mins
Forgiveness is often advised but rarely taught as a practical skill with step-by-step instructions. Catharine Giovanni, a three-time award-winning author and survivor of trauma, shares her revolutionary forgiveness system that doesn't require confrontation or reconciliation with those who hurt you.
• Understanding that forgiveness is selfish—you do it to free yourself, not the other person
• Listing everyone who makes you angry and rating them from 1-10, with 10 being the most difficult to forgive
• Beginning with easier people before tackling your "dumpster fires" or unforgivable situations
• Using a specific mantra to forgive the person, the energy around them, yourself, and the energy around the situation
• Forgiving gradually (10-12 people per session) to avoid overwhelming your body's healing process
• Recognizing that energy from anger stays in your body until you actively clear it, affecting your physical health
• Understanding that forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting or believing the other person was right—it means freedom
• Learning to forgive aspects of unforgivable situations, including forgiving yourself
• Seeing tangible results when memories no longer trigger emotional responses
• Acknowledging that you are worthy of joy, happiness, and your true authentic self
You are worthy to lead a life of joy and happiness. The anger is holding you from your birthright. Work this system and you will find your true, authentic self—the person you were meant to be.
Get ready to break free from obstacles and live life on your terms!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cassandra (00:00):
Good day out there to all of my listeners and I'd
like to welcome you to Is yourWay In your Way podcast, and
many of you are aware that's thename of my book, so therefore
I'm like, hey, why not call thisIs your Way In your Way, to see
whether you are in your way Forour new listeners out there?
I just want to share with youwhat this podcast is all about.
(00:20):
It's for those individuals whoare stuck, those individuals who
, I would say, want to be anentrepreneur, want to be an
author, but you just can't seemto get there.
You're like what?
It's something like pullingyour soul, that you know you
should be doing something, butyou can't, even if you want to
forgive somebody, and you knowyou should, but you can't, but
(00:42):
you just don't do it.
So we talk about topics relatedto excuse me, self-improvement,
business improvement and alsotopics that will enable you to
do some self-reflection, and Ialways say that I'm hopeful and
prayerful that out of one ofthese podcasts, it will touch
(01:04):
someone and enable them to sayaha, and even pivot and make a
change, so that that way they'reable to get out of their way.
I have a special guest on todayand I'd like to introduce you
to her so we can talk about thattopic, Katharine how are you?
Katharine (01:23):
I'm fine.
Thanks so much for having me.
Cassandra (01:25):
I appreciate it, yeah , and plus, because your name is
pronounced like my mom's name,so, even though they're spelled
differently, but she was Kathrynso, yeah, so, listeners, our
topic today is forgive andflourish Discover the ultimate
(01:46):
path to forgiveness.
Okay so let me give you a littlebit of Katharine's background,
just so you can get a littlepoint of reference before we
deep dive into the questions.
For her, Katherine Giovanni isa three-time award-winning
(02:06):
best-selling author and speaker,renowned as one of the founders
of the independent conciergeindustry, with over 12 books to
her name including her latest,the Ultimate Path to Forgiveness
Unlocking your Power theUltimate Path to Forgiveness
Unlocking your Power.
She brings deep insights intoresilience and the
(02:28):
transformative power ofunforgiveness.
From overcoming stage threebreast cancer to navigating a
challenging childhood, herjourney offers invaluable
lessons in strength and healing.
So look, so let's join me andher for this inspiring
conversation and let's find someempowerment through our
(02:49):
discussion about forgiveness.
Wow, you know, in the beginningI talked about those
individuals that are in theirway about forgiveness, and I'm
certain that Katharine's goingto shed some light on that and
talk about the power offorgiveness during this
conversation, and also we wouldlove to hear, Katharine, your
(03:12):
backstory.
Katharine (03:12):
Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Well, the journey probablystarted in 19,.
Never mind what year it was, wejust won't go there.
But I was in the eighth gradeand I come from a very fickled
family.
They're filled alcoholism and Iwas bullied in school because I
was different People don't likedifferent and as and then, when
my parents got a really nastydivorce, I tried to commit
(03:34):
suicide from all the stress andI spent the next decade or so as
one of those kids you know whoI'm talking about, those kids
who at one point they're justdepressed and I kind of just
bobbled through life for a whileuntil my mother fell down a
flight of stairs, broke her hip,ended up in the hospital and
(03:54):
even my mother couldn't get agin and tonic in the hospital
and we spent the next threeyears closer than sisters.
I am so blessed that I hadthree beautiful, wonderful years
with her.
We did everything together andthen she died of breast cancer
and I realized right there thatif I didn't change, I was going
(04:16):
to die as well.
So I'm 34 years sober at lastcount and I, you know, I kind of
went into, did all the stuffyou're supposed to do, but
everybody tells you you have toforgive.
Nobody teaches you how.
They just tell you that youhave to do it.
And I was.
I am now an extrovertedintrovert.
So over the years I taughtmyself how to, how to turn on,
(04:39):
so to speak.
Back then I was really shy, sothe idea of reaching out to
somebody and calling them whenyou knew they're mad at you no,
no, didn't want to do it.
So the system that I've come,which is a step-by-step system
one of the beauties of thesystem is you don't have to call
anybody frankly.
So it's it's.
(05:00):
I kind of went through life.
I got a job.
I ended up as one of thefounders of the independent
concierge industry and I toldpeople how to be a concierge in
customer service for many, manyyears.
And like you, Cassandra, I canteach you the most beautiful
words to say.
I can teach you how to act, howto dress.
Your anger is going to bleedthrough your body language,
(05:26):
whether you wanted to or not,and people are going to notice.
So I had to come up with a wayto get people to mitigate their
anger on the job when theycouldn't leave their station.
And back in the early 2000s youdidn't bring a soft topic to
the table, just wasn't done.
Nobody did it.
Well, Forgiveness was the onlyway I could think of to get them
(05:47):
to get out of their anger onthe spot, and that's how it all
started.
I became fascinated by it and acouple years ago, some friends
of mine and I we discovered thesecret sauce and we discovered
the way how to forgive.
Cassandra (06:02):
Wow, this is going to be good Now.
Okay, we heard your journey, solet's talk about how do you, in
your life as well.
Well, you know, we're alldifferent ages but what
(06:23):
manifests in you to say I needto forgive this person?
How do you know you need toforgive?
Is it because you're angry?
Katharine (06:31):
all the time.
It's the main.
My definition of anger, to beperfectly blunt, is I want you
out of my head Bottom line.
I want to stop thinking aboutyou.
I want to stop obsessing aboutyou and I want to stop, and get
you out off my head Bottom line.
I want to stop thinking aboutyou.
I want to stop obsessing aboutyou and I want to stop telling
the story, and even if you know,we all have a story.
(06:53):
So even if you're spinning thestory funny, you're still
telling the story.
I had a story.
I'm a survivor of dysfunction,alcoholism blah, blah, blah.
I'm a suicide survivor survivorof breast cancer, if you will
and I had this big, huge story.
But I realized that if I didn'tgive up the story, it wasn't
going to be my authentic self.
(07:13):
But if you give up your story,it's very scary.
Who are you?
That's a very scary thing.
Who am I without my story?
But you know, once you forgive,how do you know to forgive
people?
Because they're taking up spacein your head.
Whoever you're thinking aboutright now, on a 10 scale, with
10 being unforgivable dumpsterfire and one being the easiest
(07:35):
person in the world to forgive.
Every single one of you,including our esteemed host.
You're all thinking of yournumber 10s.
Everybody, everybody does it.
It's your knee jerk reaction toimmediately think about the
person that hurt you the most,and the reason I call it a
dumpster fire is because thatperson is in a dumpster with a
whole bunch of bad memories.
(07:56):
So I want you to leave thatperson for last and start with
your number ones and start withthe easy ones.
Cassandra (08:05):
Why.
Katharine (08:06):
Because there's so many people, places and things
and I did say places and thingswith that thought there's so
many other things you canforgive before you even get to
that person.
Cassandra (08:18):
Okay.
Katharine (08:18):
So we start with the easy ones and you work your way
up.
That's the first, that's thefirst half of the system.
Cassandra (08:25):
Okay, Tell us about if you do forgive.
What is the impact versus notforgiving?
You forgive versus unforgiving.
Katharine (08:43):
Okay, first of all, just a a few, a little psa.
If I forgive you, it doesn'tmean I want a relationship with
you.
I probably don't, and that'sfine.
If I forgive you, it doesn'tmean I'm giving you a pass.
It doesn't mean you werecorrect.
You're still wrong, you'restill a dumpster fire and I
(09:04):
still don't like you.
Okay, forgiveness means I wantto be free.
And to be perfectly blunt.
You can forgive dead people.
Why?
Because it doesn't matter wherepeople are or they're not.
You're not reaching out to them.
Forgiveness is selfish.
You do it for you.
You don't do it for them.
You do it for you because youwant them out of your head.
(09:26):
So if they're taking up spacein your head and you're
remembering the memories, evenif the memories were 50 years
ago, I don't care.
It's still in your head, aliveand fresh, and you want to be
able to toss it now.
What does forgiveness do foryou?
There was a study done injapanese it's called the
Japanese Water Study, by a guynamed Masumoto, and I can't
(09:48):
pronounce his last name.
I can't remember what it is.
It's right online and I'llsimplify it for you really fast.
He took several containers ofwater.
One container of water he spokeloving words to.
That's all he did.
He talked to it, spoke love toit, told it it was gorgeous and
he loved it.
The other container of water hespewed hate at it, horrible
(10:09):
words.
Then he froze the water and heput it under a microscope.
The water that he spewed hateat had these dark, black and
brown formations.
They were malformations andthey were horrible looking.
The water he spoke love to, hadthese beautiful crystal
formations.
Why am I telling you this?
The human body is 98% water.
(10:31):
So when you have bad self-talkor you're angry and you're
bitter and you're holding on tothe grudges and the resentments
and the hate and the anger, whatdo you think is going to the
water cells within your body?
Cassandra (10:43):
Oh my, my gosh.
That's interesting, katharine,because I was just getting ready
to ask you that the harm to youyourself is not forgiving, uh,
and there's sometimes, I I thinktoo, a lot of sickness, you
know, yeah, I don't have, I'mnot a clinician or researcher,
(11:05):
but I can just tell you know,just based on you know, and I
think about my life and I knewthat we were going to talk today
.
I was thinking about was thereanybody?
That I didn't forget?
And then I did remember acouple of things.
I wrote a chapter in my bookcalled Dear Women who have Scars
(11:27):
and Resentment.
Right, and I was like wow, andI realized that I was resenting
my parents because they had thesecret, but everybody else
shared the secret with me, butthey didn't and they denied it.
And the secret was that I had asister and everybody around me
knew it and I had no clue.
(11:48):
My parents said that wasn'ttrue and when I finally let go
and forgave, I felt this relief,you know, and I and my
perspective changed Like theydid the best they could with
what they had at that time.
Katharine (12:04):
The tools they had at the time Correct.
Cassandra (12:06):
Exactly so.
That's so.
I'm with you on that.
Katharine (12:10):
But here's the one piece, that that that makes this
system completely unique.
You did forgive your parents.
You didn't forgive the energy.
Einstein correctly proved thatenergy is neither created nor
destroyed.
It just transitions from onething to another.
So when you get angry, youthink it leaves your mouth and
(12:31):
it dissipates in the universeand goes into the clouds.
It does not.
It hangs around your energyfield until you clear it, and
everything in our universe,including this little microphone
I have in front of me, hasenergy around it, and clearing
the energy is what's going toclear the field.
Now, I know this is a podcast,but I can talk it through.
(12:53):
I'm holding a coffee cup.
Actually, it's filled with tea.
I'm about to hold it in frontof my face.
So when I first get angry, Ican hold this little cup of
anger and bitterness and, youknow, regret off to the side.
I can mitigate my anger.
It's easy.
I got this.
I can, I can deal with my life.
(13:13):
Anger oh, I'm not angry, I'm.
I can deal with this.
The longer I hold on to it, theharder it's going to be.
So now I'm using two hands tohold the cup and if you look at
my body language, my life hasn'tstopped.
I can still conduct life.
I can still hold it off to theside, but it's starting to get
into my head If I continue tohold on to it.
(13:35):
Now I'm holding the cup infront of my face.
My life has pretty much stoppedbecause it's very painful.
It's all I'm talking about.
It's all I'm talking about.
It's all I'm thinking about myfriends have started to
disappear.
It's at the front of my head andthat's what happens when you
forgive, even if you forgive theeasy ones, and you work your
way up using my little mantra.
It's going to allow you toremove the clouds of anger from
(14:00):
your purview and you're going tostart to pay attention to life
around you.
You might see a new job that'sgoing to double your income.
You might see your your dreamsignificant other.
You might find a new way tolose weight.
Why didn't you see these thingsbefore?
Because you were too focused onthe anger on the anger and
you're going to start to feelbetter because the water cells
(14:23):
within your body are going tostart to heal.
Cassandra (14:26):
Right?
What about individuals thatfeel that someone should come to
them and ask for forgiveness?
Katharine (14:40):
I would label those people as a level 8, 9, or 10,
because it's really tripping youup at this point.
Part of the system is I'm goingto have you sit down and I want
you to write a list of all thepeople you think you forgave and
even if you think you'veforgiven them and they come into
your head, write it downanyways.
And then I want you to rate thepeople from one to 10, one
(15:03):
being easy, I can toss this in asecond.
Like the person who cut you offon I-95 yesterday, you can
forgive that person, the personwho stole your sandwich from the
lunch room.
Tell me you can forgive thatperson.
They were hungry you can getanother sandwich.
(15:23):
And then you work your way up tothe hard ones.
And I want everybody to have anumber.
Now you can have 15, numberfives, that's fine.
You could skip a number, thisis your party, you can do
anything you want.
And then I want you to verysimply start at the beginning
with the ones and work your wayup the list and you forgive the
person, the energy around theperson, yourself, the energy
(15:46):
around yourself and then theenergy around the whole thing.
Now, and it's a very simplelittle poem, you don't have to
burn sage unless you want to.
You don't have to hold acrystal or dance around your
room unless you love to danceand that's what you want to do
Very, very simple thing.
You don't have to reach out andcall the person.
This is something you do foryou and you don't do it for them
(16:09):
.
It's never for them.
This is all for you to get thename out of your head.
And how do you know it worked?
When you go on Facebook or yougo to a holiday party and you
see the person's name or you seetheir face, and it doesn't
bother you.
You're not thinking goodthoughts or bad thoughts, you're
just.
you don't care that's what I'mgoing for oh, that's good, I'm
(16:31):
going for neutrality.
So let's say it's anunforgivable person like you're
talking about.
You're just holding this grudgeand you think that they need to
contact you.
They probably never will.
Um, there's a reason why I saidpeople places and and there's a
reason why I call it a dumpsterfire at the other end of the
spectrum, because everything hasenergy around it.
(16:52):
So if you can't forgive thatperson, maybe just start with.
I completely forgive myself fornot being able to forgive and
the energy around this thoughtPeriod.
Do that every day for a week andit's like an onion.
The onion layers are going tostart to come off.
Okay, I still can't forgivethat person.
(17:13):
That's fair.
Try forgiving the energy aroundthe person.
Okay, maybe you could do that.
Maybe you can't even do that.
Let's pick apart the memory.
Everything has energy around it.
So let's say, it was a holidayparty, one of the memories.
So I want you to forgive andI'm actually very serious.
I want you to forgive the table, the chair, the turkey, the
(17:34):
other people within the memoryand the energy around all these
things You're picking away atthe memory.
And if you never can forgivethat unforgivable person, that's
fine.
Forgive what you can and keepgoing.
Forgive yourself for anythingyou may or may not have done,
the energy around yourself andkeep going.
Cassandra (17:54):
Right, so are you saying that people around the
table?
There's someone at a table thatyou're angry with.
Katharine (18:02):
It's other people within the memory.
You're trying to release theanger and it's from the anger.
Cassandra (18:09):
Yeah, let me ask you this.
So during the holidays it couldbe a uh thorn, something about
the holidays that could bring upthings.
You know, yeah, yeah, my dadgot drunk and you know they
would cuss in and my friend, heleft the house.
(18:30):
He wasn't invited.
So what you're saying is, let'ssay everybody's the same sort
of people are around the table,and so what you're saying is
look at the objects and say Iforgive the objects.
Katharine (18:45):
You forgive the people, the place, the thing,
the energy, the date.
I forgave 1974.
Why did I forgive 1974?
Because that's the year I triedto commit suicide.
Now, I forgave all the playerswithin that year, but then it
was still chipping me up.
So I finally decided to forgive1974 and the energy around the
(19:06):
year.
I forgave breast cancer as athing.
I forgave the energy aroundbreast cancer.
I forgave my chemo chair, Iforgave the infusion, I forgave
all the operations I had.
I forgave everything.
I forgave the woman in thegrocery store who wanted to know
how much time I had left tolive.
It was fun and I forgave theenergy around her.
(19:28):
And it's all designed to takethis energy level from, let's
say, an eight, nine, 10, or evena four, five and six, so I can
move it down to a forgivablelevel.
Cassandra (19:40):
Okay, let me ask you this, and then I have another
question let's talk about how doyou forgive?
Katharine (19:51):
The way I forgive people is I turn off my
technology People.
Your phone has an off button.
I'm just saying.
I said that to a woman aboutabout a month ago and the color
drained from her face.
She said, oh no, I couldn't turnit off it was fun and I want
you to be alone, okay, and Itell the dogs and the cats and
(20:15):
the grandkids and the kids andall of that.
I just need you alone for abouta half hour, 20 minutes and
find your favorite comfy place.
I usually sit in the middle ofmy bed.
I do this before I go to sleepbecause your body heals itself
when it sleeps, so I'll besitting in my bed.
And I'll start with an easy one,a level one kind of person.
So, and I want you to startfrom people from the sandbox all
(20:38):
the way to present day, andusually my number ones were in
the sandbox kids you went toschool with years and years ago.
So I forgave a level one personI went to school with, to
grammar school, and I imaginedthat she was standing in front
of my bed, as I knew her as akid and sometimes I would let
(20:59):
the person have it and I'd saywhatever I wanted to say.
I'm alone in a room, I couldthrow things at it if I want,
but I imagined her, that she wasin front of me.
If you can't imagine the personin your head, get a chair and
put their name on the chair andtalk to the chair.
If that's an easy way for you todo it.
Cassandra (21:17):
Okay.
Katharine (21:17):
And then I forgave her.
I completely forgive martha, Iforgive the energy around martha
, I forgive myself, I forgivethe energy around myself, I
forgive the energy around theentire situation.
And so it is.
It's really, that's really themantra.
And then I just imagine thatthey walk out of the room and I
(21:38):
check in with my body is am Istill angry, or does it my
shoulders feel lighter?
Did I feel some energy?
Do I feel better?
And if I am still angry, what'sthe number now?
Is it a one, maybe?
Or if I was a level five, is ita five?
Did I move it down to a four?
I had a client once who saidshe started with a three, but
(21:59):
once she forgave that firstlevel, it shot up to a seven,
the reason being your brain is aphenomenal tool that protects
you and, as you forgive thatfirst layer, your brain's going
to go wow, okay, she's ready forthe closet in the back.
They're going to open it up andmore memories are going to come
out and what you thought mightbe a level three it might go up
(22:21):
a bit because you're going tostart to remember things.
This is a marathon, it's not asprint.
This is going to take a while.
You can't get a high levelperson, like a number 10, down
to a one overnight.
It's going to take a minute.
Cassandra (22:35):
So it's kind of like that saying when a student's
ready, the teacher will appear.
Katharine (22:41):
Exactly Whoever you're thinking about right now
is a good place to start, andwhoever you're thinking about
right now probably is a highnumber, because that's why
they're in your head.
So I would put that down on mypaper and I would rank it as
high as you think it should go.
But I'd also think about easythings.
(23:02):
You can forgive.
We can irritate other humans.
You maybe you got cut off.
Somebody took your spot in lineat the grocery store.
Cassandra (23:10):
Silly thing.
Katharine (23:11):
Forgive these people.
Start with those people, but doput the person you're thinking
about on your list, even if youthought you forgave them.
You did.
Forgive them, you did, but youdidn't forgive the energy around
them, which is why they'restill in your head okay, um,
explain this energy thing.
Cassandra (23:28):
I hear a lot and my listeners hear a lot.
Um, um, explain the energy.
Is it like when you, uh, youtense up and then when, when you
release, it subsides and youfeel better, so talk about that.
Katharine (23:48):
It can be as simple as that.
You ever walk into a room andit just feels off.
It just feels off.
Okay, everybody on the planetis intuitive.
You see it, feel it, know it,or you just sense it.
And sometimes you know you'llshake somebody's hand.
We were both in business formany, many years and we had to
read hundreds of resumes, nodoubt.
And you shake somebody's handand they're dressed perfectly,
(24:12):
their resume is great, thereferences are great.
You shake their hand and justfeel wrong and you don't know
why that's energy.
You're feeling the energy.
That's energy and if you hirethat person, you find yourself
saying, six months down the line, I knew I shouldn't have hired
that person.
That was a little bird on yourshoulder, whispering to you.
Cassandra (24:39):
That's the energy you're feeling.
Katharine (24:40):
That's what I'm talking about when you forgive
somebody.
My son I have a couple of sonsand my older son did this
process and he said mom, this isthe strangest thing, he's a
federal law enforcement officerup in Washington and he said my
shoulders felt lighter andthat's whacked.
He said that's just, that'sweird.
But he said my shoulders feltlighter.
I said there you go.
(25:01):
That's forgiveness.
You're going to feel the energysomewhere in your body.
Cassandra (25:06):
And if you don't?
Katharine (25:07):
feel the energy and you don't feel better.
You probably have to make a fewmore passes at this person.
So don't put a check mark bytheir name, wait 24 hours and do
it again.
I suggest everybody and I'vegot worksheets and all that kind
of stuff in the book andthere's the audio book available
, all that kind of stuff but Isuggest that you do only 10 to
(25:28):
12 at night.
Here's why Do as I say, not asI did.
My friends and I came up withthis method around 2020, 2021,
something like that, and I gotmy list together and I must have
had 50 people on there.
I'm a little bit of anoverachiever and I thought this
is going to be great.
I'm going to forgive all thesepeople and I'm going to wake up
(25:51):
tomorrow like a phoenix risingfrom the ashes.
I'm going to be a butterflycoming out.
I'm going to be a new persontomorrow morning Didn't work out
that way.
Remember the water study?
The cells are changing my body.
I forgave too many people and mybody had to play catch up.
So I spent the next three daysin bed with what everybody
(26:14):
thought, very politely, was thestomach flu.
It was not the stomach flu, itwas my body trying to play catch
up.
So if you only do 10 to 12 at atime, your body will be able to
mitigate it while you sleep.
Most people, when they do thisprocess, get really tired.
Some people like me might be inthe bathroom politely said you
(26:36):
didn't need a piece of bad fish,it's just your body mitigating
itself and getting rid of thosewater cells that we talked about
and you're going to feel better.
But only do it 10 at a timeunless you want to get sick like
I did.
I had a client who didn'tbelieve me and she said I must
have forgiven 40 people.
(26:56):
And I said what happened.
She said I got really sick.
And I said what happened.
Cassandra (27:01):
She said I got really sick, oh really, wow.
So you said start with 10 to 12.
So when you get to yourcomfortable place, yours is your
bed.
Somebody it could be somebodyelse, somewhere else with it,
right?
And then you name one person ata time as you go through.
Katharine (27:22):
I forgive you.
Ok, right, and start with theeasy ones.
My five ones, my five.
One of my besties say you know,three to four people a night.
They're, they're, they're,they're even more severe than I
am.
I.
I say 10 to 12, but katie andpaula will tell you three to
four people a night.
If you really want to make sureyou do it.
But I think if you get up to 10people, especially with the
easy ones yeah, 100, you couldprobably do.
Toss 10 of those a night whenyou get up to 10 people,
especially with the easy ones.
Yes, a hundred percent.
You could probably do toss 10of those a night.
(27:43):
When you get up to the highernumbers, yeah, you might want to
limit yourself to two or three,because that's a lot of anger
and it's going to take.
You're not going to get a 10down to a one in one sitting.
It's going to take a while.
You might get your 10 down to anine.
You may you to say for a coupleof weeks, I forgive myself for
(28:06):
not being able to forgive Georgeand the energy around George,
and even that thought might pissyou off.
Quite frankly, just keep sayingthat and eventually you're
going to be able to forgiveparts of it.
Now, to be very, very honest,there are unforgivable
situations and people out there100 percent, 100 percent black,
(28:28):
100 percent dark, 100 percenthate filled unforgivable.
But there's other things in thememory you can forgive, like
yourself, forgiving yourself ispossibly the most important
person to forgive and there'sother things in the memory.
A lot of speakers and I'm notbashing speakers by any means,
but back in my day we spent alot of time talking about a wall
(28:49):
that everybody comes up againstand we want you to get through
that wall, and here are tools toget you through that wall.
Okay, here's my take on it Pullout a few bricks from the wall,
forgive a few of them.
Walk around the dumb thing.
Forgive what you can keep going.
(29:09):
Circle back if you can, and ifyou never can, circle back
because it was so unforgivable,that's fine too.
Cassandra (29:20):
Keep going, forgive yourself and keep going Mm-hmm.
So you can say I forgive, but Iwould know I don't, I won't
forget.
Katharine (29:25):
Nobody forgets, right ?
I don't know who started that,but it's wrong.
I don't know one person on theplanet who can forget Not one.
Now, as I said, as I've saidbefore, there might be a unicorn
person having this Susie,sunshine kind of life who's
totally able to forget.
I'm not that person.
I have yet to meet somebody whocan forget, but what I can
(29:46):
promise you is I can.
This system, the step-by-stepsystem, will neutralize the
memory.
You won't care anymore, andthat's a beautiful thing.
In other words, it'll get itout of your head and at the end
of the day, that's all I want.
I it out of your head and, atthe end of the day, that's all I
(30:06):
want.
I want you out of my head,that's it Doesn't mean I want a
relationship with you, doesn'tmean you were right.
I just want to release you frommy head.
They're living in there, rentfree.
I think they should be evicted.
It's about time you think so.
Huh?
Well, give them their notice,let me.
Cassandra (30:19):
Let me talk about God .
Um, you know, we, you know lifeis, um, as you indicated, it's
a marathon and there are a lotof things that happen in our
lives tragedies, you know, and Iremember I had a neighbor where
they had a daughter that diedand they were so angry I'll
(30:45):
never forget it, and his thingwas there can't possibly be a
God, or I'm angry with God.
You know just, I'll neverforget it, and it was just so
sad and I've not been in hisshoes, but I just could imagine
the death of a child.
So when people are angry, and alot of people get angry with
(31:08):
God, how would you, how wouldyou deal with that?
Katharine (31:13):
You can forgive anything.
You can forgive God, as crazyas that sounds, and the energy
around God.
You can forgive politicians.
You can forgive cities.
You can forgive God as crazy asthat sounds and the energy
around God.
You can forgive politicians,you can forgive cities.
You can forgive the war in theMiddle East.
What is that going to do for thewar in the Middle East?
Not a damn thing, but it'sgoing to do an awful lot for you
because you will not be angryanymore and you'll start to feel
(31:35):
joy and you'll start to feelbetter.
Who better than God?
You can yell at God if you wantto why not?
Who better?
But you can forgive anything inthis life.
The death of a child?
I have never experienced thateither and I can only imagine
the pain that people have.
And that might be one of thoseunforgivable things that we're
(31:58):
talking about.
100% percent.
And if you can, if you can findyour in yourself to forgive
yourself for any you know, forwhat it's worth, and forgive the
situation and forgive god, thatmight be just enough to get tip
the scale so you can startwalking forward in love and joy,
and that, that and that mighttake time that could take time,
(32:20):
take a little bit of a time, Iyou know.
At the very least, just startwith I completely forgive myself
for not being able to forgive,and the energy around that, and
say it every night before you goto sleep until maybe, maybe you
might be able to forgive alittle bit, a little, someone
like somebody who you went toschool with in grammar school or
(32:41):
high school, somebody stoleyour sweater, whatever it is.
Start with that saying and sayit every night before you go to
bed and combine that withgratitude the three things
you're most grateful for thatday, even if it's I had a hot
cup of coffee today and it wasdelicious and I'm grateful for
that, even if that's all you canthink of.
Do those things and do it for aweek and you're going to start
to feel better.
Cassandra (33:03):
Let me, let me reverse this a little bit and
I'm going to talk about myself.
I have, I know, that we all dothings that we probably should
not have.
You know, and I can remember,when I was in the hotel business
, I was confronted with a lotand I would say, the guest.
(33:25):
One reason was when I wouldwalk out and they asked for the
general manager and they seethat I'm an African-American,
they look at me like, oh, nowonder, the hotel's falling down
and falling apart and fallingapart.
And I said something that Ishould not have.
(33:47):
As they say, they go low, I wantto go high, but what I did
after I did that, I thoughtabout it and it didn't sit well
with me.
Yeah, and I actually found thatguest to apologize for what I
said, not for what they said tome, but I just wanted them to
know that that was not of me andI just wanted to apologize for
(34:10):
how I responded to what you said.
Right, I actually felt better.
I actually felt better.
I didn't feel, I felt convictedbecause I, you know, and I was
like if I wasn't a child of God,I would have done this and I
would have said that, but yet I,you know, I knew that was wrong
and I knew my, my staff sawthat, so I let's reverse that.
(34:36):
And somebody knows that theydid something that was not the
right thing.
What about them going toapologize to that person, even
though that person with them?
Yeah?
Katharine (34:48):
Yeah, a hundred percent fair.
If you feel the need to reachout to somebody, call them, go
see them and make amends, do it.
If that's what you need forclosure, 100%, I'm all for it.
If, for some reason, thishappened to you way in the past
and there's no possible way foryou to forgive, to reach out to
that person, here's what I do.
(35:10):
We're all human.
We've all done things we're notproud of.
We've all said things in theheat of anger.
How dare you say that to me?
We've all done things we're notproud of.
We've all said things in theheat of anger.
How dare you say that to me?
We've all done that, and what Idid is I I can't pronounce this
word I compartmentalized.
There it is.
I've been having a lot oftrouble with that word recently.
I compartmentalized Katharineand I looked at teenage Kathrine
(35:34):
and there's a passage in theBible that always gets me to
forgiveness.
Jesus is nailed up on the crossand he says forgive them,
father.
They know not what they do, andwhat I've always thought he
meant by that is if you're inthe fifth grade and you don't
know trigonometry, I can't getmad at you because you haven't
learned it yet.
So that's what I learned.
(35:56):
That's how I forgave my parents.
I look at that teenager and Iforgave her using my mantra.
I completely forgive teenageKatharine and I forgive what she
said and I forgive the energyaround it.
And I thought of the memoriesin those years and, you know,
she did the best she could.
She created a world for herselfso she could survive and make
it out.
And then I did the same thingfor my 20s and 30s.
(36:20):
I did the same thing for myconcierge years in business, and
as the memories came into myhead, I'd write them down on my
paper and I would work on thatevery week and that's ultimately
how I forgave myself.
And I'm not, you know, whoeverthe ugly person was on the other
side who said the horriblething.
Sometimes I would forgive themand the energy around them and
(36:43):
sometimes, really, to be honest,if you want to be fair,
sometimes I couldn't forgivethem Absolutely couldn't forgive
them.
So I would forgive the energyaround the situation and I would
check it off my list and keepgoing.
There are unforgivablesituations and people in this
world, and will I circle backsomeday and forgive them?
Probably I'll let you know.
Cassandra (37:06):
Wow, that reminds me of Matthew 18.
I think it's verse 21.
And the servant said well, howmany times must I forgive?
Seven, he's like Seven timesseven.
Katharine (37:23):
Yeah, yeah, but he also said and I'm not very
religious but I do know a fewpassages that really help me
forgive and the other thing theysaid is yea, though I walk
through the valley of shadow ofdeath, I will feel no evil.
He does not say have lunch inthe valley.
He does not say go visitfriends in the valley of shadow
of death, I will feel no evil.
He does not say have lunch inthe valley.
He does not say go visitfriends in the valley, don't
(37:43):
build a house in the valley,walk through it and forgiveness.
A lot of people will look at meand say I don't want to go back
there.
I don't want to go back to mypast and relive all of those
horrible memories.
Okay, I'm asking you to walkthrough it.
I'm asking you to walk throughit.
I'm asking you to go back oneor two more times, forgive the
players back there in thatvalley and keep going, so you
(38:05):
never have to see them or hearfrom them again.
In other words, you don't haveto see it in your mind.
You go to Thanksgiving, itwon't bother you anymore, it's
gone and I can look back at mypast now.
I can look back at my childhoodand I actually can see the
pockets of love that were thereall along.
I couldn't see it before, I cansee it now.
I can see the laughter and Ican see the adults that were put
(38:28):
in my life to help me get outRight, and that's what I
remember now.
Cassandra (38:32):
Right, right.
So so my listeners, my audienceout there, this, this
conversation, I think, isphenomenal, because I'm certain
it has.
You're thinking about some ofthese individuals that you are
upset with or unnerved.
It could even be a familymember.
(38:53):
Would it be great if you coulduse the techniques that
Katharine shared for you torelease all of that within you
and feel better.
It's like she said.
Her son said it felt like aburden was lifted off of him by
doing that, and I share with mylisteners again is what do you
(39:16):
have to lose?
You know, try it.
You know, like you said, I willnever, never forget.
Like marriages, divorcing, andit's like, oh, my goodness, you
know.
And then it goes on thechildren and you talk about that
person, and then the childrenget involved.
Katharine (39:34):
Intergenerational trauma.
Cassandra (39:36):
Exactly, Exactly, and so let me ask you one more
question.
Why are people because that'sone of the things I said in the
beginning, this podcast is forindividuals that are stuck why
is it so hard for them to forget?
Katharine (39:53):
Because we're never taught how.
Cassandra (39:55):
Okay.
Katharine (39:56):
And we're also taught at least I was I speak for
myself in the 70s I'm 63, butmight as well put it out there
and in the 70s we were taughtthat negative emotions were bad.
If you were crying, you weretold I'll give you something to
cry about, stop it.
And if we were crying, if wewere depressed, get over it.
(40:17):
We were never allowed to diveinto those emotions, so we had
to stuff it deep down inside ofus, because children should be
seen and not heard, don't youknow?
Now society is not that wayanymore.
But a lot of us were taughtthis and I'm here to say I want
you to dive into the emotionsone more time so you can let it
go.
Holding onto it is just makingyou sick.
(40:40):
If you dive into that toxic sexpool, you're going to actually
be able to clear it.
Cassandra (40:45):
Right, that's good, Katharine.
I love that.
That's really good.
I don't know what else to say.
I thought this was great.
I know that there are so manypeople that have unforgiveness
in their heart, even whatconcerns me, even at the death
(41:08):
of a loved one, that's whenthings like families, just like
oh, oh and I know families thatstill don't speak, like you know
is it really worth it, is itreally worth your health for you
to you know, to be that way.
You know it just.
It just makes me think.
And when I heard you, Katharine, you and some of your clients
(41:29):
you talked about, well, I'mgoing to put down 10 to 12
people that I'm angry with and,to be honest, I can't think of
10 to 12 people and I'm justgrateful for that, but it lets
you know that those areindividuals out there that may
have 50, you know, yeah, sothanks for your transparency
with that.
I'm like you got 10, 12 peoplethat you're angry with.
Katharine (41:52):
Well, to be fair, I also wrote down memories.
I wrote down periods of timelike the eighth grade and in the
eighth grade there were a lotof players, you know there were
my parents.
I mean there were a lot ofplayers in that year.
So I kind of compartmentalizedit and I kind of went through it
memory by memory.
So, yeah, I had a lot of people, but when I first started this,
(42:15):
I started with the easy ones.
I started with the really easyones, and this is to mostly
women, because women seem tohave this more than men.
With all due respect, I have tosay it.
You are worthy to lead a lifeof joy.
You are worthy to live a lifewith happiness.
(42:37):
You were not meant to live in arefrigerator box in the street.
You're meant to have abeautiful home and a great job
with income.
You are worthy, it is yourbirthright.
And the anger is holding youfrom your birthright.
And if you work this system,you're going to find your true,
(42:58):
authentic self.
In other words, the person youcame down from heaven to be is
finally going to appear.
And I know a lot of people aresaying what is my purpose?
Why am I here?
You're going to find out andit's important, it's a great
purpose.
We need you here.
Cassandra (43:13):
But you're worthy to have it and I see you as a
testament.
When you were younger, youwanted to commit suicide.
And my sisters have had thatthought too.
But look at the outcome.
If you could just hold on, justhold on, as Katharine said,
there's something out there foryou.
You just got to ask and be openand let go of this
(43:38):
unforgiveness and all of that.
So, Katharine, I'm glad thatthe Lord spared your life so
that you could be a beacon formany listeners and people,
period, that have unforgivenessin their heart.
So it's my pleasure.
Yeah.
So thank you so much and, as Ialways say at the end of my
podcast to my listeners, bye fornow, and God bless you and
(44:03):
Katharine.
I want to thank you so much.
I'm so appreciative of you andyour gifts.
Katharine (44:09):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been a pleasure.
Cassandra (44:12):
Thank you.
Good day out there to all of my listeners and I'd
like to welcome you to Is yourWay In your Way podcast, and
many of you are aware that's thename of my book, so therefore
I'm like, hey, why not call thisIs your Way In your Way, to see
whether you are in your way Forour new listeners out there?
I just want to share with youwhat this podcast is all about.
(00:20):
It's for those individuals whoare stuck, those individuals who
, I would say, want to be anentrepreneur, want to be an
author, but you just can't seemto get there.
You're like what?
It's something like pullingyour soul, that you know you
should be doing something, butyou can't, even if you want to
forgive somebody, and you knowyou should, but you can't, but
(00:42):
you just don't do it.
So we talk about topics relatedto excuse me, self-improvement,
business improvement and alsotopics that will enable you to
do some self-reflection, and Ialways say that I'm hopeful and
prayerful that out of one ofthese podcasts, it will touch
(01:04):
someone and enable them to sayaha, and even pivot and make a
change, so that that way they'reable to get out of their way.
I have a special guest on todayand I'd like to introduce you
to her so we can talk about thattopic, Katharine how are you?
Katharine (01:23):
I'm fine.
Thanks so much for having me.
Cassandra (01:25):
I appreciate it, yeah , and plus, because your name is
pronounced like my mom's name,so, even though they're spelled
differently, but she was Kathrynso, yeah, so, listeners, our
topic today is forgive andflourish Discover the ultimate
(01:46):
path to forgiveness.
Okay so let me give you a littlebit of Katharine's background,
just so you can get a littlepoint of reference before we
deep dive into the questions.
For her, Katherine Giovanni isa three-time award-winning
(02:06):
best-selling author and speaker,renowned as one of the founders
of the independent conciergeindustry, with over 12 books to
her name including her latest,the Ultimate Path to Forgiveness
Unlocking your Power theUltimate Path to Forgiveness
Unlocking your Power.
She brings deep insights intoresilience and the
(02:28):
transformative power ofunforgiveness.
From overcoming stage threebreast cancer to navigating a
challenging childhood, herjourney offers invaluable
lessons in strength and healing.
So look, so let's join me andher for this inspiring
conversation and let's find someempowerment through our
(02:49):
discussion about forgiveness.
Wow, you know, in the beginningI talked about those
individuals that are in theirway about forgiveness, and I'm
certain that Katharine's goingto shed some light on that and
talk about the power offorgiveness during this
conversation, and also we wouldlove to hear, Katharine, your
(03:12):
backstory.
Katharine (03:12):
Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Well, the journey probablystarted in 19,.
Never mind what year it was, wejust won't go there.
But I was in the eighth gradeand I come from a very fickled
family.
They're filled alcoholism and Iwas bullied in school because I
was different People don't likedifferent and as and then, when
my parents got a really nastydivorce, I tried to commit
(03:34):
suicide from all the stress andI spent the next decade or so as
one of those kids you know whoI'm talking about, those kids
who at one point they're justdepressed and I kind of just
bobbled through life for a whileuntil my mother fell down a
flight of stairs, broke her hip,ended up in the hospital and
(03:54):
even my mother couldn't get agin and tonic in the hospital
and we spent the next threeyears closer than sisters.
I am so blessed that I hadthree beautiful, wonderful years
with her.
We did everything together andthen she died of breast cancer
and I realized right there thatif I didn't change, I was going
(04:16):
to die as well.
So I'm 34 years sober at lastcount and I, you know, I kind of
went into, did all the stuffyou're supposed to do, but
everybody tells you you have toforgive.
Nobody teaches you how.
They just tell you that youhave to do it.
And I was.
I am now an extrovertedintrovert.
So over the years I taughtmyself how to, how to turn on,
(04:39):
so to speak.
Back then I was really shy, sothe idea of reaching out to
somebody and calling them whenyou knew they're mad at you no,
no, didn't want to do it.
So the system that I've come,which is a step-by-step system
one of the beauties of thesystem is you don't have to call
anybody frankly.
So it's it's.
(05:00):
I kind of went through life.
I got a job.
I ended up as one of thefounders of the independent
concierge industry and I toldpeople how to be a concierge in
customer service for many, manyyears.
And like you, Cassandra, I canteach you the most beautiful
words to say.
I can teach you how to act, howto dress.
Your anger is going to bleedthrough your body language,
(05:26):
whether you wanted to or not,and people are going to notice.
So I had to come up with a wayto get people to mitigate their
anger on the job when theycouldn't leave their station.
And back in the early 2000s youdidn't bring a soft topic to
the table, just wasn't done.
Nobody did it.
Well, Forgiveness was the onlyway I could think of to get them
(05:47):
to get out of their anger onthe spot, and that's how it all
started.
I became fascinated by it and acouple years ago, some friends
of mine and I we discovered thesecret sauce and we discovered
the way how to forgive.
Cassandra (06:02):
Wow, this is going to be good Now.
Okay, we heard your journey, solet's talk about how do you, in
your life as well.
Well, you know, we're alldifferent ages but what
(06:23):
manifests in you to say I needto forgive this person?
How do you know you need toforgive?
Is it because you're angry?
Katharine (06:31):
all the time.
It's the main.
My definition of anger, to beperfectly blunt, is I want you
out of my head Bottom line.
I want to stop thinking aboutyou.
I want to stop obsessing aboutyou and I want to stop, and get
you out off my head Bottom line.
I want to stop thinking aboutyou.
I want to stop obsessing aboutyou and I want to stop telling
the story, and even if you know,we all have a story.
(06:53):
So even if you're spinning thestory funny, you're still
telling the story.
I had a story.
I'm a survivor of dysfunction,alcoholism blah, blah, blah.
I'm a suicide survivor survivorof breast cancer, if you will
and I had this big, huge story.
But I realized that if I didn'tgive up the story, it wasn't
going to be my authentic self.
(07:13):
But if you give up your story,it's very scary.
Who are you?
That's a very scary thing.
Who am I without my story?
But you know, once you forgive,how do you know to forgive
people?
Because they're taking up spacein your head.
Whoever you're thinking aboutright now, on a 10 scale, with
10 being unforgivable dumpsterfire and one being the easiest
(07:35):
person in the world to forgive.
Every single one of you,including our esteemed host.
You're all thinking of yournumber 10s.
Everybody, everybody does it.
It's your knee jerk reaction toimmediately think about the
person that hurt you the most,and the reason I call it a
dumpster fire is because thatperson is in a dumpster with a
whole bunch of bad memories.
(07:56):
So I want you to leave thatperson for last and start with
your number ones and start withthe easy ones.
Cassandra (08:05):
Why.
Katharine (08:06):
Because there's so many people, places and things
and I did say places and thingswith that thought there's so
many other things you canforgive before you even get to
that person.
Cassandra (08:18):
Okay.
Katharine (08:18):
So we start with the easy ones and you work your way
up.
That's the first, that's thefirst half of the system.
Cassandra (08:25):
Okay, Tell us about if you do forgive.
What is the impact versus notforgiving?
You forgive versus unforgiving.
Katharine (08:43):
Okay, first of all, just a a few, a little psa.
If I forgive you, it doesn'tmean I want a relationship with
you.
I probably don't, and that'sfine.
If I forgive you, it doesn'tmean I'm giving you a pass.
It doesn't mean you werecorrect.
You're still wrong, you'restill a dumpster fire and I
(09:04):
still don't like you.
Okay, forgiveness means I wantto be free.
And to be perfectly blunt.
You can forgive dead people.
Why?
Because it doesn't matter wherepeople are or they're not.
You're not reaching out to them.
Forgiveness is selfish.
You do it for you.
You don't do it for them.
You do it for you because youwant them out of your head.
(09:26):
So if they're taking up spacein your head and you're
remembering the memories, evenif the memories were 50 years
ago, I don't care.
It's still in your head, aliveand fresh, and you want to be
able to toss it now.
What does forgiveness do foryou?
There was a study done injapanese it's called the
Japanese Water Study, by a guynamed Masumoto, and I can't
(09:48):
pronounce his last name.
I can't remember what it is.
It's right online and I'llsimplify it for you really fast.
He took several containers ofwater.
One container of water he spokeloving words to.
That's all he did.
He talked to it, spoke love toit, told it it was gorgeous and
he loved it.
The other container of water hespewed hate at it, horrible
(10:09):
words.
Then he froze the water and heput it under a microscope.
The water that he spewed hateat had these dark, black and
brown formations.
They were malformations andthey were horrible looking.
The water he spoke love to, hadthese beautiful crystal
formations.
Why am I telling you this?
The human body is 98% water.
(10:31):
So when you have bad self-talkor you're angry and you're
bitter and you're holding on tothe grudges and the resentments
and the hate and the anger, whatdo you think is going to the
water cells within your body?
Cassandra (10:43):
Oh my, my gosh.
That's interesting, katharine,because I was just getting ready
to ask you that the harm to youyourself is not forgiving, uh,
and there's sometimes, I I thinktoo, a lot of sickness, you
know, yeah, I don't have, I'mnot a clinician or researcher,
(11:05):
but I can just tell you know,just based on you know, and I
think about my life and I knewthat we were going to talk today
.
I was thinking about was thereanybody?
That I didn't forget?
And then I did remember acouple of things.
I wrote a chapter in my bookcalled Dear Women who have Scars
(11:27):
and Resentment.
Right, and I was like wow, andI realized that I was resenting
my parents because they had thesecret, but everybody else
shared the secret with me, butthey didn't and they denied it.
And the secret was that I had asister and everybody around me
knew it and I had no clue.
(11:48):
My parents said that wasn'ttrue and when I finally let go
and forgave, I felt this relief,you know, and I and my
perspective changed Like theydid the best they could with
what they had at that time.
Katharine (12:04):
The tools they had at the time Correct.
Cassandra (12:06):
Exactly so.
That's so.
I'm with you on that.
Katharine (12:10):
But here's the one piece, that that that makes this
system completely unique.
You did forgive your parents.
You didn't forgive the energy.
Einstein correctly proved thatenergy is neither created nor
destroyed.
It just transitions from onething to another.
So when you get angry, youthink it leaves your mouth and
(12:31):
it dissipates in the universeand goes into the clouds.
It does not.
It hangs around your energyfield until you clear it, and
everything in our universe,including this little microphone
I have in front of me, hasenergy around it, and clearing
the energy is what's going toclear the field.
Now, I know this is a podcast,but I can talk it through.
(12:53):
I'm holding a coffee cup.
Actually, it's filled with tea.
I'm about to hold it in frontof my face.
So when I first get angry, Ican hold this little cup of
anger and bitterness and, youknow, regret off to the side.
I can mitigate my anger.
It's easy.
I got this.
I can, I can deal with my life.
(13:13):
Anger oh, I'm not angry, I'm.
I can deal with this.
The longer I hold on to it, theharder it's going to be.
So now I'm using two hands tohold the cup and if you look at
my body language, my life hasn'tstopped.
I can still conduct life.
I can still hold it off to theside, but it's starting to get
into my head If I continue tohold on to it.
(13:35):
Now I'm holding the cup infront of my face.
My life has pretty much stoppedbecause it's very painful.
It's all I'm talking about.
It's all I'm talking about.
It's all I'm thinking about myfriends have started to
disappear.
It's at the front of my head andthat's what happens when you
forgive, even if you forgive theeasy ones, and you work your
way up using my little mantra.
It's going to allow you toremove the clouds of anger from
(14:00):
your purview and you're going tostart to pay attention to life
around you.
You might see a new job that'sgoing to double your income.
You might see your your dreamsignificant other.
You might find a new way tolose weight.
Why didn't you see these thingsbefore?
Because you were too focused onthe anger on the anger and
you're going to start to feelbetter because the water cells
(14:23):
within your body are going tostart to heal.
Cassandra (14:26):
Right?
What about individuals thatfeel that someone should come to
them and ask for forgiveness?
Katharine (14:40):
I would label those people as a level 8, 9, or 10,
because it's really tripping youup at this point.
Part of the system is I'm goingto have you sit down and I want
you to write a list of all thepeople you think you forgave and
even if you think you'veforgiven them and they come into
your head, write it downanyways.
And then I want you to rate thepeople from one to 10, one
(15:03):
being easy, I can toss this in asecond.
Like the person who cut you offon I-95 yesterday, you can
forgive that person, the personwho stole your sandwich from the
lunch room.
Tell me you can forgive thatperson.
They were hungry you can getanother sandwich.
(15:23):
And then you work your way up tothe hard ones.
And I want everybody to have anumber.
Now you can have 15, numberfives, that's fine.
You could skip a number, thisis your party, you can do
anything you want.
And then I want you to verysimply start at the beginning
with the ones and work your wayup the list and you forgive the
person, the energy around theperson, yourself, the energy
(15:46):
around yourself and then theenergy around the whole thing.
Now, and it's a very simplelittle poem, you don't have to
burn sage unless you want to.
You don't have to hold acrystal or dance around your
room unless you love to danceand that's what you want to do
Very, very simple thing.
You don't have to reach out andcall the person.
This is something you do foryou and you don't do it for them
(16:09):
.
It's never for them.
This is all for you to get thename out of your head.
And how do you know it worked?
When you go on Facebook or yougo to a holiday party and you
see the person's name or you seetheir face, and it doesn't
bother you.
You're not thinking goodthoughts or bad thoughts, you're
just.
you don't care that's what I'mgoing for oh, that's good, I'm
(16:31):
going for neutrality.
So let's say it's anunforgivable person like you're
talking about.
You're just holding this grudgeand you think that they need to
contact you.
They probably never will.
Um, there's a reason why I saidpeople places and and there's a
reason why I call it a dumpsterfire at the other end of the
spectrum, because everything hasenergy around it.
(16:52):
So if you can't forgive thatperson, maybe just start with.
I completely forgive myself fornot being able to forgive and
the energy around this thoughtPeriod.
Do that every day for a week andit's like an onion.
The onion layers are going tostart to come off.
Okay, I still can't forgivethat person.
(17:13):
That's fair.
Try forgiving the energy aroundthe person.
Okay, maybe you could do that.
Maybe you can't even do that.
Let's pick apart the memory.
Everything has energy around it.
So let's say, it was a holidayparty, one of the memories.
So I want you to forgive andI'm actually very serious.
I want you to forgive the table, the chair, the turkey, the
(17:34):
other people within the memoryand the energy around all these
things You're picking away atthe memory.
And if you never can forgivethat unforgivable person, that's
fine.
Forgive what you can and keepgoing.
Forgive yourself for anythingyou may or may not have done,
the energy around yourself andkeep going.
Cassandra (17:54):
Right, so are you saying that people around the
table?
There's someone at a table thatyou're angry with.
Katharine (18:02):
It's other people within the memory.
You're trying to release theanger and it's from the anger.
Cassandra (18:09):
Yeah, let me ask you this.
So during the holidays it couldbe a uh thorn, something about
the holidays that could bring upthings.
You know, yeah, yeah, my dadgot drunk and you know they
would cuss in and my friend, heleft the house.
(18:30):
He wasn't invited.
So what you're saying is, let'ssay everybody's the same sort
of people are around the table,and so what you're saying is
look at the objects and say Iforgive the objects.
Katharine (18:45):
You forgive the people, the place, the thing,
the energy, the date.
I forgave 1974.
Why did I forgive 1974?
Because that's the year I triedto commit suicide.
Now, I forgave all the playerswithin that year, but then it
was still chipping me up.
So I finally decided to forgive1974 and the energy around the
(19:06):
year.
I forgave breast cancer as athing.
I forgave the energy aroundbreast cancer.
I forgave my chemo chair, Iforgave the infusion, I forgave
all the operations I had.
I forgave everything.
I forgave the woman in thegrocery store who wanted to know
how much time I had left tolive.
It was fun and I forgave theenergy around her.
(19:28):
And it's all designed to takethis energy level from, let's
say, an eight, nine, 10, or evena four, five and six, so I can
move it down to a forgivablelevel.
Cassandra (19:40):
Okay, let me ask you this, and then I have another
question let's talk about how doyou forgive?
Katharine (19:51):
The way I forgive people is I turn off my
technology People.
Your phone has an off button.
I'm just saying.
I said that to a woman aboutabout a month ago and the color
drained from her face.
She said, oh no, I couldn't turnit off it was fun and I want
you to be alone, okay, and Itell the dogs and the cats and
(20:15):
the grandkids and the kids andall of that.
I just need you alone for abouta half hour, 20 minutes and
find your favorite comfy place.
I usually sit in the middle ofmy bed.
I do this before I go to sleepbecause your body heals itself
when it sleeps, so I'll besitting in my bed.
And I'll start with an easy one,a level one kind of person.
So, and I want you to startfrom people from the sandbox all
(20:38):
the way to present day, andusually my number ones were in
the sandbox kids you went toschool with years and years ago.
So I forgave a level one personI went to school with, to
grammar school, and I imaginedthat she was standing in front
of my bed, as I knew her as akid and sometimes I would let
(20:59):
the person have it and I'd saywhatever I wanted to say.
I'm alone in a room, I couldthrow things at it if I want,
but I imagined her, that she wasin front of me.
If you can't imagine the personin your head, get a chair and
put their name on the chair andtalk to the chair.
If that's an easy way for you todo it.
Cassandra (21:17):
Okay.
Katharine (21:17):
And then I forgave her.
I completely forgive martha, Iforgive the energy around martha
, I forgive myself, I forgivethe energy around myself, I
forgive the energy around theentire situation.
And so it is.
It's really, that's really themantra.
And then I just imagine thatthey walk out of the room and I
(21:38):
check in with my body is am Istill angry, or does it my
shoulders feel lighter?
Did I feel some energy?
Do I feel better?
And if I am still angry, what'sthe number now?
Is it a one, maybe?
Or if I was a level five, is ita five?
Did I move it down to a four?
I had a client once who saidshe started with a three, but
(21:59):
once she forgave that firstlevel, it shot up to a seven,
the reason being your brain is aphenomenal tool that protects
you and, as you forgive thatfirst layer, your brain's going
to go wow, okay, she's ready forthe closet in the back.
They're going to open it up andmore memories are going to come
out and what you thought mightbe a level three it might go up
(22:21):
a bit because you're going tostart to remember things.
This is a marathon, it's not asprint.
This is going to take a while.
You can't get a high levelperson, like a number 10, down
to a one overnight.
It's going to take a minute.
Cassandra (22:35):
So it's kind of like that saying when a student's
ready, the teacher will appear.
Katharine (22:41):
Exactly Whoever you're thinking about right now
is a good place to start, andwhoever you're thinking about
right now probably is a highnumber, because that's why
they're in your head.
So I would put that down on mypaper and I would rank it as
high as you think it should go.
But I'd also think about easythings.
(23:02):
You can forgive.
We can irritate other humans.
You maybe you got cut off.
Somebody took your spot in lineat the grocery store.
Cassandra (23:10):
Silly thing.
Katharine (23:11):
Forgive these people.
Start with those people, but doput the person you're thinking
about on your list, even if youthought you forgave them.
You did.
Forgive them, you did, but youdidn't forgive the energy around
them, which is why they'restill in your head okay, um,
explain this energy thing.
Cassandra (23:28):
I hear a lot and my listeners hear a lot.
Um, um, explain the energy.
Is it like when you, uh, youtense up and then when, when you
release, it subsides and youfeel better, so talk about that.
Katharine (23:48):
It can be as simple as that.
You ever walk into a room andit just feels off.
It just feels off.
Okay, everybody on the planetis intuitive.
You see it, feel it, know it,or you just sense it.
And sometimes you know you'llshake somebody's hand.
We were both in business formany, many years and we had to
read hundreds of resumes, nodoubt.
And you shake somebody's handand they're dressed perfectly,
(24:12):
their resume is great, thereferences are great.
You shake their hand and justfeel wrong and you don't know
why that's energy.
You're feeling the energy.
That's energy and if you hirethat person, you find yourself
saying, six months down the line, I knew I shouldn't have hired
that person.
That was a little bird on yourshoulder, whispering to you.
Cassandra (24:39):
That's the energy you're feeling.
Katharine (24:40):
That's what I'm talking about when you forgive
somebody.
My son I have a couple of sonsand my older son did this
process and he said mom, this isthe strangest thing, he's a
federal law enforcement officerup in Washington and he said my
shoulders felt lighter andthat's whacked.
He said that's just, that'sweird.
But he said my shoulders feltlighter.
I said there you go.
(25:01):
That's forgiveness.
You're going to feel the energysomewhere in your body.
Cassandra (25:06):
And if you don't?
Katharine (25:07):
feel the energy and you don't feel better.
You probably have to make a fewmore passes at this person.
So don't put a check mark bytheir name, wait 24 hours and do
it again.
I suggest everybody and I'vegot worksheets and all that kind
of stuff in the book andthere's the audio book available
, all that kind of stuff but Isuggest that you do only 10 to
(25:28):
12 at night.
Here's why Do as I say, not asI did.
My friends and I came up withthis method around 2020, 2021,
something like that, and I gotmy list together and I must have
had 50 people on there.
I'm a little bit of anoverachiever and I thought this
is going to be great.
I'm going to forgive all thesepeople and I'm going to wake up
(25:51):
tomorrow like a phoenix risingfrom the ashes.
I'm going to be a butterflycoming out.
I'm going to be a new persontomorrow morning Didn't work out
that way.
Remember the water study?
The cells are changing my body.
I forgave too many people and mybody had to play catch up.
So I spent the next three daysin bed with what everybody
(26:14):
thought, very politely, was thestomach flu.
It was not the stomach flu, itwas my body trying to play catch
up.
So if you only do 10 to 12 at atime, your body will be able to
mitigate it while you sleep.
Most people, when they do thisprocess, get really tired.
Some people like me might be inthe bathroom politely said you
(26:36):
didn't need a piece of bad fish,it's just your body mitigating
itself and getting rid of thosewater cells that we talked about
and you're going to feel better.
But only do it 10 at a timeunless you want to get sick like
I did.
I had a client who didn'tbelieve me and she said I must
have forgiven 40 people.
(26:56):
And I said what happened.
She said I got really sick.
And I said what happened.
Cassandra (27:01):
She said I got really sick, oh really, wow.
So you said start with 10 to 12.
So when you get to yourcomfortable place, yours is your
bed.
Somebody it could be somebodyelse, somewhere else with it,
right?
And then you name one person ata time as you go through.
Katharine (27:22):
I forgive you.
Ok, right, and start with theeasy ones.
My five ones, my five.
One of my besties say you know,three to four people a night.
They're, they're, they're,they're even more severe than I
am.
I.
I say 10 to 12, but katie andpaula will tell you three to
four people a night.
If you really want to make sureyou do it.
But I think if you get up to 10people, especially with the
easy ones yeah, 100, you couldprobably do.
Toss 10 of those a night whenyou get up to 10 people,
especially with the easy ones.
Yes, a hundred percent.
You could probably do toss 10of those a night.
(27:43):
When you get up to the highernumbers, yeah, you might want to
limit yourself to two or three,because that's a lot of anger
and it's going to take.
You're not going to get a 10down to a one in one sitting.
It's going to take a while.
You might get your 10 down to anine.
You may you to say for a coupleof weeks, I forgive myself for
(28:06):
not being able to forgive Georgeand the energy around George,
and even that thought might pissyou off.
Quite frankly, just keep sayingthat and eventually you're
going to be able to forgiveparts of it.
Now, to be very, very honest,there are unforgivable
situations and people out there100 percent, 100 percent black,
(28:28):
100 percent dark, 100 percenthate filled unforgivable.
But there's other things in thememory you can forgive, like
yourself, forgiving yourself ispossibly the most important
person to forgive and there'sother things in the memory.
A lot of speakers and I'm notbashing speakers by any means,
but back in my day we spent alot of time talking about a wall
(28:49):
that everybody comes up againstand we want you to get through
that wall, and here are tools toget you through that wall.
Okay, here's my take on it Pullout a few bricks from the wall,
forgive a few of them.
Walk around the dumb thing.
Forgive what you can keep going.
(29:09):
Circle back if you can, and ifyou never can, circle back
because it was so unforgivable,that's fine too.
Cassandra (29:20):
Keep going, forgive yourself and keep going Mm-hmm.
So you can say I forgive, but Iwould know I don't, I won't
forget.
Katharine (29:25):
Nobody forgets, right ?
I don't know who started that,but it's wrong.
I don't know one person on theplanet who can forget Not one.
Now, as I said, as I've saidbefore, there might be a unicorn
person having this Susie,sunshine kind of life who's
totally able to forget.
I'm not that person.
I have yet to meet somebody whocan forget, but what I can
(29:46):
promise you is I can.
This system, the step-by-stepsystem, will neutralize the
memory.
You won't care anymore, andthat's a beautiful thing.
In other words, it'll get itout of your head and at the end
of the day, that's all I want.
I it out of your head and, atthe end of the day, that's all I
(30:06):
want.
I want you out of my head,that's it Doesn't mean I want a
relationship with you, doesn'tmean you were right.
I just want to release you frommy head.
They're living in there, rentfree.
I think they should be evicted.
It's about time you think so.
Huh?
Well, give them their notice,let me.
Cassandra (30:19):
Let me talk about God .
Um, you know, we, you know lifeis, um, as you indicated, it's
a marathon and there are a lotof things that happen in our
lives tragedies, you know, and Iremember I had a neighbor where
they had a daughter that diedand they were so angry I'll
(30:45):
never forget it, and his thingwas there can't possibly be a
God, or I'm angry with God.
You know just, I'll neverforget it, and it was just so
sad and I've not been in hisshoes, but I just could imagine
the death of a child.
So when people are angry, and alot of people get angry with
(31:08):
God, how would you, how wouldyou deal with that?
Katharine (31:13):
You can forgive anything.
You can forgive God, as crazyas that sounds, and the energy
around God.
You can forgive politicians.
You can forgive cities.
You can forgive God as crazy asthat sounds and the energy
around God.
You can forgive politicians,you can forgive cities.
You can forgive the war in theMiddle East.
What is that going to do for thewar in the Middle East?
Not a damn thing, but it'sgoing to do an awful lot for you
because you will not be angryanymore and you'll start to feel
(31:35):
joy and you'll start to feelbetter.
Who better than God?
You can yell at God if you wantto why not?
Who better?
But you can forgive anything inthis life.
The death of a child?
I have never experienced thateither and I can only imagine
the pain that people have.
And that might be one of thoseunforgivable things that we're
(31:58):
talking about.
100% percent.
And if you can, if you can findyour in yourself to forgive
yourself for any you know, forwhat it's worth, and forgive the
situation and forgive god, thatmight be just enough to get tip
the scale so you can startwalking forward in love and joy,
and that, that and that mighttake time that could take time,
(32:20):
take a little bit of a time, Iyou know.
At the very least, just startwith I completely forgive myself
for not being able to forgive,and the energy around that, and
say it every night before you goto sleep until maybe, maybe you
might be able to forgive alittle bit, a little, someone
like somebody who you went toschool with in grammar school or
(32:41):
high school, somebody stoleyour sweater, whatever it is.
Start with that saying and sayit every night before you go to
bed and combine that withgratitude the three things
you're most grateful for thatday, even if it's I had a hot
cup of coffee today and it wasdelicious and I'm grateful for
that, even if that's all you canthink of.
Do those things and do it for aweek and you're going to start
to feel better.
Cassandra (33:03):
Let me, let me reverse this a little bit and
I'm going to talk about myself.
I have, I know, that we all dothings that we probably should
not have.
You know, and I can remember,when I was in the hotel business
, I was confronted with a lotand I would say, the guest.
(33:25):
One reason was when I wouldwalk out and they asked for the
general manager and they seethat I'm an African-American,
they look at me like, oh, nowonder, the hotel's falling down
and falling apart and fallingapart.
And I said something that Ishould not have.
(33:47):
As they say, they go low, I wantto go high, but what I did
after I did that, I thoughtabout it and it didn't sit well
with me.
Yeah, and I actually found thatguest to apologize for what I
said, not for what they said tome, but I just wanted them to
know that that was not of me andI just wanted to apologize for
(34:10):
how I responded to what you said.
Right, I actually felt better.
I actually felt better.
I didn't feel, I felt convictedbecause I, you know, and I was
like if I wasn't a child of God,I would have done this and I
would have said that, but yet I,you know, I knew that was wrong
and I knew my, my staff sawthat, so I let's reverse that.
(34:36):
And somebody knows that theydid something that was not the
right thing.
What about them going toapologize to that person, even
though that person with them?
Yeah?
Katharine (34:48):
Yeah, a hundred percent fair.
If you feel the need to reachout to somebody, call them, go
see them and make amends, do it.
If that's what you need forclosure, 100%, I'm all for it.
If, for some reason, thishappened to you way in the past
and there's no possible way foryou to forgive, to reach out to
that person, here's what I do.
(35:10):
We're all human.
We've all done things we're notproud of.
We've all said things in theheat of anger.
How dare you say that to me?
We've all done things we're notproud of.
We've all said things in theheat of anger.
How dare you say that to me?
We've all done that, and what Idid is I I can't pronounce this
word I compartmentalized.
There it is.
I've been having a lot oftrouble with that word recently.
I compartmentalized Katharineand I looked at teenage Kathrine
(35:34):
and there's a passage in theBible that always gets me to
forgiveness.
Jesus is nailed up on the crossand he says forgive them,
father.
They know not what they do, andwhat I've always thought he
meant by that is if you're inthe fifth grade and you don't
know trigonometry, I can't getmad at you because you haven't
learned it yet.
So that's what I learned.
(35:56):
That's how I forgave my parents.
I look at that teenager and Iforgave her using my mantra.
I completely forgive teenageKatharine and I forgive what she
said and I forgive the energyaround it.
And I thought of the memoriesin those years and, you know,
she did the best she could.
She created a world for herselfso she could survive and make
it out.
And then I did the same thingfor my 20s and 30s.
(36:20):
I did the same thing for myconcierge years in business, and
as the memories came into myhead, I'd write them down on my
paper and I would work on thatevery week and that's ultimately
how I forgave myself.
And I'm not, you know, whoeverthe ugly person was on the other
side who said the horriblething.
Sometimes I would forgive themand the energy around them and
(36:43):
sometimes, really, to be honest,if you want to be fair,
sometimes I couldn't forgivethem Absolutely couldn't forgive
them.
So I would forgive the energyaround the situation and I would
check it off my list and keepgoing.
There are unforgivablesituations and people in this
world, and will I circle backsomeday and forgive them?
Probably I'll let you know.
Cassandra (37:06):
Wow, that reminds me of Matthew 18.
I think it's verse 21.
And the servant said well, howmany times must I forgive?
Seven, he's like Seven timesseven.
Katharine (37:23):
Yeah, yeah, but he also said and I'm not very
religious but I do know a fewpassages that really help me
forgive and the other thing theysaid is yea, though I walk
through the valley of shadow ofdeath, I will feel no evil.
He does not say have lunch inthe valley.
He does not say go visitfriends in the valley of shadow
of death, I will feel no evil.
He does not say have lunch inthe valley.
He does not say go visitfriends in the valley, don't
(37:43):
build a house in the valley,walk through it and forgiveness.
A lot of people will look at meand say I don't want to go back
there.
I don't want to go back to mypast and relive all of those
horrible memories.
Okay, I'm asking you to walkthrough it.
I'm asking you to walk throughit.
I'm asking you to go back oneor two more times, forgive the
players back there in thatvalley and keep going, so you
(38:05):
never have to see them or hearfrom them again.
In other words, you don't haveto see it in your mind.
You go to Thanksgiving, itwon't bother you anymore, it's
gone and I can look back at mypast now.
I can look back at my childhoodand I actually can see the
pockets of love that were thereall along.
I couldn't see it before, I cansee it now.
I can see the laughter and Ican see the adults that were put
(38:28):
in my life to help me get outRight, and that's what I
remember now.
Cassandra (38:32):
Right, right.
So so my listeners, my audienceout there, this, this
conversation, I think, isphenomenal, because I'm certain
it has.
You're thinking about some ofthese individuals that you are
upset with or unnerved.
It could even be a familymember.
(38:53):
Would it be great if you coulduse the techniques that
Katharine shared for you torelease all of that within you
and feel better.
It's like she said.
Her son said it felt like aburden was lifted off of him by
doing that, and I share with mylisteners again is what do you
(39:16):
have to lose?
You know, try it.
You know, like you said, I willnever, never forget.
Like marriages, divorcing, andit's like, oh, my goodness, you
know.
And then it goes on thechildren and you talk about that
person, and then the childrenget involved.
Katharine (39:34):
Intergenerational trauma.
Cassandra (39:36):
Exactly, Exactly, and so let me ask you one more
question.
Why are people because that'sone of the things I said in the
beginning, this podcast is forindividuals that are stuck why
is it so hard for them to forget?
Katharine (39:53):
Because we're never taught how.
Cassandra (39:55):
Okay.
Katharine (39:56):
And we're also taught at least I was I speak for
myself in the 70s I'm 63, butmight as well put it out there
and in the 70s we were taughtthat negative emotions were bad.
If you were crying, you weretold I'll give you something to
cry about, stop it.
And if we were crying, if wewere depressed, get over it.
(40:17):
We were never allowed to diveinto those emotions, so we had
to stuff it deep down inside ofus, because children should be
seen and not heard, don't youknow?
Now society is not that wayanymore.
But a lot of us were taughtthis and I'm here to say I want
you to dive into the emotionsone more time so you can let it
go.
Holding onto it is just makingyou sick.
(40:40):
If you dive into that toxic sexpool, you're going to actually
be able to clear it.
Cassandra (40:45):
Right, that's good, Katharine.
I love that.
That's really good.
I don't know what else to say.
I thought this was great.
I know that there are so manypeople that have unforgiveness
in their heart, even whatconcerns me, even at the death
(41:08):
of a loved one, that's whenthings like families, just like
oh, oh and I know families thatstill don't speak, like you know
is it really worth it, is itreally worth your health for you
to you know, to be that way.
You know it just.
It just makes me think.
And when I heard you, Katharine, you and some of your clients
(41:29):
you talked about, well, I'mgoing to put down 10 to 12
people that I'm angry with and,to be honest, I can't think of
10 to 12 people and I'm justgrateful for that, but it lets
you know that those areindividuals out there that may
have 50, you know, yeah, sothanks for your transparency
with that.
I'm like you got 10, 12 peoplethat you're angry with.
Katharine (41:52):
Well, to be fair, I also wrote down memories.
I wrote down periods of timelike the eighth grade and in the
eighth grade there were a lotof players, you know there were
my parents.
I mean there were a lot ofplayers in that year.
So I kind of compartmentalizedit and I kind of went through it
memory by memory.
So, yeah, I had a lot of people, but when I first started this,
(42:15):
I started with the easy ones.
I started with the really easyones, and this is to mostly
women, because women seem tohave this more than men.
With all due respect, I have tosay it.
You are worthy to lead a lifeof joy.
You are worthy to live a lifewith happiness.
(42:37):
You were not meant to live in arefrigerator box in the street.
You're meant to have abeautiful home and a great job
with income.
You are worthy, it is yourbirthright.
And the anger is holding youfrom your birthright.
And if you work this system,you're going to find your true,
(42:58):
authentic self.
In other words, the person youcame down from heaven to be is
finally going to appear.
And I know a lot of people aresaying what is my purpose?
Why am I here?
You're going to find out andit's important, it's a great
purpose.
We need you here.
Cassandra (43:13):
But you're worthy to have it and I see you as a
testament.
When you were younger, youwanted to commit suicide.
And my sisters have had thatthought too.
But look at the outcome.
If you could just hold on, justhold on, as Katharine said,
there's something out there foryou.
You just got to ask and be openand let go of this
(43:38):
unforgiveness and all of that.
So, Katharine, I'm glad thatthe Lord spared your life so
that you could be a beacon formany listeners and people,
period, that have unforgivenessin their heart.
So it's my pleasure.
Yeah.
So thank you so much and, as Ialways say at the end of my
podcast to my listeners, bye fornow, and God bless you and
(44:03):
Katharine.
I want to thank you so much.
I'm so appreciative of you andyour gifts.
Katharine (44:09):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been a pleasure.
Cassandra (44:12):
Thank you.
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