March 18, 2025 • 49 mins
What happens when childhood trauma shapes your self-image into something unrecognizable? Transformation coach Denise Lee takes us on her remarkable journey from surviving unimaginable abuse to thriving as a successful entrepreneur and guide for others.
Denise's story begins in what appeared to be a middle-class household with the proverbial white picket fence, but behind closed doors, she endured sexual abuse, eventually entered foster care, experienced rape, and turned to alcohol to cope. These experiences led her to adopt devastating self-beliefs: "I thought I was a whore, I thought I was a drunk, I thought I was useless, inept, unqualified."
The turning point came through surrender - not giving up, but recognizing that some burdens are too heavy to carry alone. "My guilt was too heavy. I couldn't. It wasn't designed for me to hold on to it anyway," Denise explains. This surrender opened the door to a transformative relationship with faith and a completely new self-understanding.
This episode dives deep into the nature of trauma, explaining how it manifests in our relationships and behaviors. Denise outlines four personality types - stable, anxious, avoidant, and disorganized - helping listeners identify patterns that might indicate unprocessed trauma in their own lives. She offers practical tools for transformation, including her "ABCs" approach: Ask questions from people who model what you want to become, Believe there's something better, seek Conferral from others about your strengths, and Deliver what's already within you.
Whether you're feeling stuck in your career, relationships, or personal growth, this conversation offers both inspiration and actionable advice for breaking through self-imposed barriers. Connect with Denise at deniseglee.com and discover how to transform your obstacles into opportunities for success.
Get ready to break free from obstacles and live life on your terms!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cassandra (00:01):
Good day everyone.
I'd like to welcome you to Isyour Way In your way podcast and
my name is CassandraCrawley-Mayo as your host, and
I'm so thankful that you all arehere today.
And, for those new listeners, Ijust want to share a little bit
about what this podcast isabout.
It's actually a podcast forwomen but men are certainly
(00:21):
welcome because you have womenin your life but this is about
individuals who are stuck,individuals who know that
there's something calling theirsoul to do something different,
maybe to forgive somebody, ormaybe you want to be an
entrepreneur, maybe you want tobe promoted, maybe you want to
open your own business, maybeyou want to get out of a
(00:42):
relationship that's toxic, maybeyou just want to do something
different and you're stuck withand you're not quite sure how to
get out of it.
So this podcast actually talksto special guests.
I call all my guests veryspecial and we talk about topics
related to what I say personalimprovement, even some business
(01:05):
improvement, and it also willenable you to have some
self-reflection based on some ofthe things that you've heard,
and I always am hopeful thatwhatever you hear it'll do
something in your belly.
I call it like a fire in yourbelly and say you know what, if
she can do that, I can too.
So my special guest today isDenise Lee, and I'd like to
(01:26):
introduce you to Denise.
Well, hello, denise.
Denise (01:30):
How are you?
I'm doing good, I'm blessed andI'm so happy to just wherever
we're going to go.
We're just going to have God'sway in this conversation.
Cassandra (01:41):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I concur with that.
Now, before I get started, I'mgoing to read a little bit about
Denise, just so you guys canget a little not real deep
understanding yet.
I think the questions are goingto enable you to do this, but
just so you can have a littlebackground on her.
Denise is a transformation coachdedicated to helping business
(02:04):
owners and leaders overcomeinternal and external challenges
.
Drawing from her own experienceof facing fears and
uncertainties while growing herbusiness, denise discovered her
true calling.
That's phenomenal when wediscover our true calling,
because a lot of us want to knowwhat our purpose is and
(02:25):
everything.
But anyway, her true calling isempowering others to break
through these barriers.
With over a decade ofexperience, denise now guides
leaders in making strategic,growth-oriented choices by
simplifying complex decisions,complex decisions.
(02:46):
Her empathetic, actionableapproach combines real life
examples and straightforwardadvice, helping clients shift
their mindset and unlock clarityand success.
Her journey of resilience andgrowth will resonate with you
guys on Is your Way In your Way?
She's going to offer them somepractical tools to turn
obstacles into opportunities.
Wow, that's.
That's good, denise.
(03:06):
Let me ask you before you I'mgoing to say you struggled to to
grow your own business a bitTell us what life was like prior
to that.
What was like your, your, yourbackstory a little bit prior to
(03:29):
that, what was it like?
Denise (03:30):
your backstory?
A little bit oh boy, oh boy.
So I'm I'm assuming everybodyhere is 18 years and up.
So I have some user discretion,as advised, when I'm about to
say this, because when I explainthat I am an incest survivor,
rape survivor, I'm an alcoholic,recovering alcoholic.
I have all these these thingsthat have happened to me and
(03:50):
they look at me like are you,are you OK, are you functional?
And I'm like, yes, but it tooka long, long road to get here.
Two West African immigrants wasraised in the middle-class
household.
Unfortunately, behind all thewhite picket fence and the
little poodle named Buster,there was a lot of turmoil.
(04:12):
My father, though he was aninvestment banker.
He truly mismanaged his moneyand he was also a philanderer,
there's no other way of puttingit.
My mother I didn't feelconnected at all towards any,
her husband and, frankly,anybody, and she used me as a
(04:32):
play thing, emotionally,verbally, sexually, any way you
can.
And that happened from zero, aslong as I can remember, till 11
years old.
So the foster care system tookme away briefly, had a lot of
turbulent situations from then,was raped by school counselor.
I mean, I had just so muchthings going along.
(04:54):
I turned to alcohol, I turnedto all sorts of stuff and,
remarkably, I went to college.
Remarkably, I got a corporatejob.
Remarkably, I was able to leavethat environment that was
literally enabling me to be avile, disgusting person that was
only about chasing fame andprestige and not connecting with
(05:20):
the people I was truly tryingto serve, and it didn't really
come through service as abusiness owner that I realized I
had to reconcile.
Who I was as a result of who Ireally was to become because of
God, and so there's a lot ofother stuff in between,
(05:40):
cassandra, but the whole journeywas an evolution of breaking
past what I thought I was andnot not realizing who God
designed me to become.
So it's been quite a journey,but I'm so grateful to be here
yeah, it sounds like it.
Cassandra (05:57):
So tell me, who did you think you were?
Well, based on your background.
Who did you think you were?
Denise (06:05):
I thought I was a whore, I thought I was a drunk.
I thought I was useless, Ithought I could not, I was inept
, I was unqualified.
Cassandra (06:18):
Okay, wow, those are all what I call those
self-imposed barriers, but basedon what you have experienced
the culture would say, thosethings you know, based on what
you've done Now, what now?
So tell my listeners, what wasit about you that made you pivot
(06:41):
?
And, like you said, it was along journey, but you don't see
yourself as that anymore.
Who do you see yourself as now?
Denise (06:51):
See myself as the child of God, I see myself as worthy,
I see myself as redeemed, I seemyself as a instrument for good.
But the process of how I gotthere was not easy for sure, but
it actually came in a in acurious kind of way.
(07:13):
It came through surrender.
Every time I felt that Icouldn't take certain people
turn situations and I said Idon't know what to do.
I had to surrender.
I had to surrender to God, Ihad to surrender to ideas that
conflicted to the self-limitingthoughts that I gave on myself.
(07:34):
Right, and the concern for me,the way I went out, was
literally stop trying to carryit on my own means.
My own strength, my like, my,my guilt was too heavy.
I couldn't.
It wasn't designed for me tohold on to it anyway all right,
okay, now, how did you realizethat?
Cassandra (07:57):
like, like, what happened that you know?
Um, because many of mylisteners have similarities and
many of them are thinking I'm nogood.
You know, my family didn't loveme.
They gave me away, you know.
So your story to me is isphenomenal because in retrospect
(08:20):
, you're going to share what itwas with you that got you out of
feeling, and you mentioned yourrelationship with God.
Or did somebody turn you on toGod?
Like, how did that happen?
How did that relationship start?
Denise (08:37):
It's funny because I was just sharing this story to my
son, cassandra, the other day.
I said you know, my mother satme down and read Psalm 91 and
Psalm 23.
And I just did not believe in aGod that would have me around
someone who would did vilethings to me, and I went to
(08:59):
church, but I didn't have arelationship with church, so I'm
not going to sit here and saythat it was.
I always had a relationshipwith faith.
God was always 5 000 miles awayfrom me and I think cassandra
to answer your question I wouldhave these little moments where
he would save me from, fromthings that I self-inflicted
(09:20):
damage and stuff like that, andI didn't understand Holy spirit
at the time.
I didn't understand it, but Iwould always just feel comforted
and saying like, and some ofthe people would say to me like
God's watching over you, and Iwould have these moments of
quiet moments where I would justthink and reflect and I would
feel comforted and I knew it wassomething spiritual.
(09:44):
That's my journey, sure.
Cassandra (09:46):
Like everybody who's listening.
Denise (09:48):
They have their own journey, but that was me, oh,
and for me it was being moreattuned to that little voice,
that comforting spirit, that wasmy journey.
Cassandra (09:58):
Mm, hmm, mm, hmm.
That's that's good, that's good, that's that's good, that's
good.
You talked about things thatoccurred, that it confirmed
something, confirmed yourcalling.
What specifically was that?
Was that?
And to share with the listenerswhat your calling is now.
Denise (10:19):
So there is a.
There's a pastor that Iabsolutely love.
His name is Pastor PaulSherbert.
If you ever had a chance to goto the Bay area, san Francisco
Bay area, check that, check hisministry out.
But one of the things he said,and I truly believe, is the ABCs
.
And so the first one is ask.
I wanted to be curious.
I just love asking questionsfrom people who modeled what I
(10:42):
wanted to become.
Cassandra (10:44):
That was number one.
Denise (10:45):
That's A B.
I believe there was somethingbetter.
So you ask, you believe.
You don't have to haveeverything kind of wrapped up,
but I believed in that.
And then C, looking forconferral Like what does that
look like?
You're asking people that knowlike and trust you, the people
(11:06):
who see you in the good, the badand the ugly, like do you see
these traits Like?
Do you see the fact that I canbe communicative?
Or I'm good with numbers?
I'm not good with numbers.
Cassandra (11:17):
You have to find commercial.
Denise (11:18):
My husband laughs at me all the time.
You can't do any kind ofcalculator.
Anyway but I digress, lookingcommercial conferral like look,
I literally had people sayingdenise, you're really good with
being able to break downcomplicated things and make it
simple.
Denise, you're really good with, like, talking with different
types of people.
That was confirmed and it'sjust making sure that I deliver
(11:46):
what was inside of me, becausethat's the thing a lot of people
think is like I need to receive, receive, receive, receive,
receive, receive.
But I needed to deliver outwhat was already placed in me
and you get more in return.
So I think it was my ABCDs thatallowed me to really walk more
and confident with what I knewwas true within me Okay.
Cassandra (12:11):
So once you left your corporate job, was it difficult
?
Denise (12:16):
to leave.
First of all the money, ofcourse.
The money, the healthcare, thesteady paycheck, right, the
steady paycheck.
Oh my gosh.
Cassandra (12:24):
Right.
So Something was really strongenough for you to do that.
What was that?
That?
And I say that because ourlisteners, many of them, want to
leave and do somethingdifferent, but of course I was
(12:44):
the same way.
I get a paycheck every twoweeks.
I get benefits.
I'm like you know that's crazyif I would leave something
without something else.
Tell my listeners how thathappened.
How did all that come about?
Denise (12:57):
Okay, I really want to preface what I have to say for
everyone who's listening tounderstand that, just because
you hate your boss and you don'tlike the work, it's time for
you to spring off and dosomething different.
Right, denise is not sayingthat, and I want everyone else
to know that my situation wasbecause I was literally in a
(13:17):
toxic work environment and atthe time, my husband was full on
and I had ample savings from mycareer that I could be able to
invest in my business.
So I just want to say that veryclear that everybody may not
have the means, opportunity tosupport, the resources to be a
business owner and, that beingsaid, I already had a clientele
(13:42):
that I had, part time, ok, so itwasn't like I was starting from
zero.
So, for those of you guys whoare listening and you say I want
to just be a business owner, Ireally want to ask you are you
ready to be an unpaid servantfor three to five years, because
that's really what it is?
Are you ready to be able tounderstand your client better
(14:03):
than may perhaps even knowyourself, their wants, their
needs, those desires, their,their hesitations?
That's something that you needto consider too.
So, and also are you?
Are you willing to invest inyour own personal development?
A lot of business owners theyfail in the first 90.
90 of them fail within thefirst five years.
Aside from the financial stuffis because they fail to
(14:26):
understand the stressors thatcome that of being a business
owner.
That's not for everyone.
Cassandra (14:32):
Absolutely.
You're exactly right.
I can.
I'll attest to that as a as abusiness owner myself first time
business owner like I could, Icould manage the corporation I
was working for.
I did really good for them.
But then it came a time itwasn't really good for me and
that's when I made a decisionthat I'm going to do what I felt
(14:56):
I was called to do.
And that was a process and ittook time.
And as I wrote my book, one ofthe things I always wanted to do
was write a book.
After I wrote my book I waslike OK, I'm done, that's it,
you know.
And something that I said no,you're not, you're just getting
started, you have to.
It's kind of like you have towhen much is given, much is
(15:21):
required, so you have to giveback.
That book is not for you, it'sfor everybody who receives it.
So you're right, a businessowner is tough.
But for me and it sounds likefor you I just have a knowing
that.
I know that.
I know this is something that Ishould be doing and that's what
drives me.
(15:41):
And, in addition to that, Goddrives me too, you know, because
he's the one that that sayslook, I have the strong
conviction Like this is what youshould be doing, and trust me
and I'll see you through allthat.
So you're right about that.
For those who want to makemoney in the first year, you're
(16:05):
a very fortunate person if youdo, or the second year, or the
third year, you know.
So it's right.
So I am so with you on that.
I'm like, wow, that's amazing.
Let's talk a little bit aboutthe trauma you experienced.
Yeah, and I say that againbecause of my audience
(16:30):
Everything is for my listenersand it's so much trauma that's
going on out there and justbeing able to not actually let
it go, but put it aside or getthe support or whatever you need
in order to overcome that,because it stops a lot of people
(16:51):
and then some people, it drivesthem like I'm going to be this
and I'm going to do this.
So what happens if a persondoesn't get healed from it?
Do you consider yourself beinghealed from the trauma you've
gone through?
Denise (17:07):
Okay, so, if you'll indulge me, I want to make sure
that we're all clear abouttrauma, okay, yes, so there's a
couple things I want to makesure everybody understands.
Okay, so every the a trauma is asituation or event that you
lack either the emotional, thephysical or the psychological
(17:30):
tools to either understand or toadapt to, meaning that you may
see something that other peoplemay be able to easily overcome,
either because of their age,their experience or their
proximity.
And the best way I've alwaysexplained it to people was
imagine you see a horrific carcrash Right now.
(18:12):
You're the person that's 500feet away, who has never seen a
car crash, may have a completelydifferent reaction from someone
who's a first responder, afirefighter, a doctor, who sees
this stuff almost every week,all the time.
Right, exactly the kid in thecar may have a completely
different perspective than the40-year-old man who's also had a
previous car crash.
So it depends on your age, yourexperience, your proximity,
right?
And then one other thing I justreally want to mention trauma's
coming to theity, part oftraumas Everyone thinks of
(18:34):
traumas as I was abused or hit,or for a lot of us who came out
of corporate America, that wastraumatic within itself.
That's a whole different storyas a problem, and so everyone
thinks that trauma is that yougot hit or something else, but
so it comes in differentvarieties.
(18:55):
It could be chronic work right,that's traumatic, right, it
could be you are in a familywhere money is mismanaged that's
trauma.
So I really want to validatefor everybody who thinks like,
well, it wasn't trauma.
Well, what if your fatheralways left every night and he
never explained to you what washappening?
That is trauma.
(19:17):
So, that being said, everybody,90% of us in the course of our
life, will experience a form ofeither some form of trauma,
either a little t, like thoselittle moments, chronic
stressful moments or somethingbig that just rocks your world,
and so to sit here and say thatI am completely healed from
(19:39):
every single trauma that I'veever experienced is folly.
That's not.
That's not the case now, andhave I been able to adapt and
understand what had happened, tobe able to respond
appropriately and be able totell my story?
That's how you know when you'rehealed.
Cassandra (19:56):
Okay, good, good, because you're very open with it
.
Yeah, right, yeah, and sothat's one of the things that
individuals can do.
And you're right on, denise,and I'm so glad that you defined
what trauma was, because I'mthinking of a time in my life
(20:22):
and even when I wrote my book.
The book is love letterswritten to women and they're
like, for example, dear womenwho have scars and resentment,
and they're like, for example,dear women who have scars and
resentment, you know, or dearwomen that compare yourselves to
others.
And I just kind of want to talkabout those scars and
(20:46):
resentment and how I had to.
Well, first of all, the reasonit took me a long time to write
the book because I didn't wantto be exposed OK, I don't want
people to know my stuff, and Ididn't know what people would
say and all of that.
But then eventually I got overthat, because what I've been
through, so many other peoplehave been through, may not be
the same exact thing, but justsomething different and based on
(21:08):
the scars that I had.
That was trauma for me.
But just something differentand based on the scars that I
had.
That was trauma for me.
You know, it was trauma for me,for my for me to find out that
I had a sister that everybodyknew about and I didn't you know
, so I dealt with that for years.
So I saw that as a form oftrauma for me growing up.
So that's why I'm really reallyglad that you you brought that
(21:29):
up, really glad that you um, youbrought that up.
Um, you also talked about therewere different types of what you
call them.
Um, was it people?
You talked about there?
Different types of people, andone was stable.
You talked about ancient.
Denise (21:46):
Oh right, yeah, so we didn't talk about it, but I can
definitely talk about that.
But to your, to your pointearlier, I want to say I know
that you talked about in yourbook external and internal
storms and I really wanted toamplify that, if I may.
You know for a lot of us thatwhen we're going through
(22:08):
something traumatic, right wehave.
Our world is rocked, our way ofhow we relate to ourselves and
how we view people has changedand we have feelings that are
unprocessed anger, guilt, shame,resentment, all that.
That storm is brewing inside ofus, right.
And then we've also got thestorms are brewing out around us
(22:28):
, the people who are unable orunwilling to be able to comfort
or relate or understand with you, right okay, I got you.
That's good yeah that's good allright, so so, um, there are
three, four different types ofpeople in the world.
(22:49):
Okay, if you're lucky, one ofthe lucky 20, 30 percent of us,
you're considered a stableperson.
Emotionally stable person,meaning that you're able to
understand, relate, process,communicate in a way that shows
love and concern shows love andconcern for yourself as well as
(23:10):
other people.
Right, that's the ideal happycase.
Stable, confident person.
Unfortunately, if you have gonethrough any type of chronic
stress or traumatic incidents,you fall into one of these other
categories you are an anxiousperson.
And that's in clinical terms,it's called neurotic.
And so what that's in clinicalterms is called neurotic.
(23:32):
And so what that is is you'reconstantly fearing what had
happened or what will happen,and you're constantly time
traveling in the past or thepresent.
And you're and those kind ofpersonalities are, the ones that
are people pleasers, the onesthat will never, ever say no,
even despite the fact thatthey've got 10 other things that
(23:54):
they got going onsimultaneously.
I'll drop everything,sweetheart, and I'll come and
help you.
They're the ones who have thefull workload and they'll do
everything.
That's it.
Or you may fall into the bin ofthe avoid it, where you believe
you're incompetent or unworthy.
You don't want any criticismwhatsoever and you will.
(24:15):
You're the one who willprocrastinate or avoid, or
you're the ones who are quick tobe sarcastic or say snippy
things, all to keep people awayfrom you.
And then there's the last one isaway from you, and then there's
the last one is disorganized,where you have this push pull
(24:36):
situation where I love you, comeclose.
No, don't come too close.
No, I want to spend time withyou.
No, not, not really.
These are the people that wecall wishy-washy, and anyone
who's anxious, avoiding ordisorganized has gone through
unprocessed trauma.
Cassandra (24:50):
Okay, that's good.
Say that again If anybody'swhat Anxious.
Denise (24:56):
Say it again Anxious, avoided or disorganized.
You have unprocessed trauma.
Cassandra (25:02):
Okay, all right.
So individuals listening tothat was like wow, so it's
enabling them to think aboutreally Like.
Some people are like so did Igo through any trauma?
You know they're not.
They're not quite sure whetherthey went through trauma or not,
but those are some types ofsome behaviors that will
(25:27):
articulate whether they've gonethrough trauma.
Is that what you're saying?
Denise (25:31):
Yeah, I mean there's a lot of characteristics for
someone who has've gone throughtrauma.
Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, I mean there's a lot ofcharacteristics for someone who
has unhealed trauma.
They're suspicious, they blame,they externalize, they use
magical thinking.
Magical thinking and saying ifI was there in this certain time
, this certain place, then maybeI could have changed events.
In these sequences, they arethe ones who minimize their
interactions with people.
(25:51):
No, it was.
I wasn't that part of thatproblem, it was really their
problem.
Or they magnify If everyonewouldn't do things my way,
everything would be perfect, andso they.
There's more cognitive.
It's called cognitivedistortion.
The fancy way for how you thinkis not in line with reality.
Right?
Cassandra (26:10):
Okay, you think is not in line with reality, right,
okay, and you also what I'veread and did some reading about
you.
Let's talk about the mindsets.
Yeah, how do you, what do youdo with your clients to shift
their mindset?
Give us some examples aboutthat.
Denise (26:27):
Well, this is making the assumption, cassandra, they
actually want to heal, becausenot everyone who's thirsty wants
to drink, ok, ok.
So we're making this assumption, sure, and we're also making
the assumption that they're notaddicted to being a victim of.
(26:52):
People love sharing theirstories about their woes and how
everybody mistreated them, andglorifying all the pain that
they experienced so they canmake themselves feel special
right I'm not saying we're notspecial, for sure everyone's
special special.
We all are right, we're allspecial but.
If you're doing it at theexpense of ignoring your part,
your culpability or what thewhat was really happening.
You're mistaking, you'remistaken about who you really
(27:15):
are.
So when we're making the shiftinto our mindset, we're actually
saying to ourselves I am awareand I am ready to be able to see
truths about myself and others,which may feel uncomfortable
and may be downright painful,and I'm willing to be able to be
responsible and how I choose tomove forward despite what had
(27:39):
happened.
So, it's the choice, with eyes,open, feet on the ground, open
heart, to understand like why amI really and what part did I
play and what can I do now?
Cassandra (27:54):
Right.
Okay, so you are a coach tohelping business owners and
leaders.
Could you give an example inregards to a business owner or a
leader who said I'm ready, I'mopen to what you're going to do.
I know I need to shift mymindset.
(28:16):
I'm all open to what you say,denise or Ms Lee.
So what process would you useafter that with individuals?
Denise (28:27):
For me, this is the way my practice.
Everybody's practice is alittle bit different, but my
practice is literally goingreverse engineering, meaning I'd
love to know if you want toshift shift to what?
What person do you want tobecome and why do you want to
become it?
Because we can't be able tomove forward without a map in
(28:50):
mind.
Like, think about it, when youwant to go somewhere new, where
you're traveling, you do justsay, hey, I want to go to to
chuck your cheese.
And then what's the machinegonna say, well, where?
yeah, right, exactly, yeah, yeahand so and so I always like to
ask, like why is this important?
(29:11):
So that we actually have someclarity, Because some people
they have an idea of I just wantto be able to make the comments
.
I want to make lots of money.
Well, why do you want to makemoney?
Cassandra (29:22):
That's right, that's right.
Denise (29:25):
Right, like I want to feed my kids, everybody wants to
feed their kids.
I got to get out of here realwide, like really, and how is
this going to be of use?
So once we understand that,then the next thing is what
traits within you that you findthat is getting in the way of
(29:46):
your success.
And then we come to actionitems to be able to say, okay,
we're going to work on this.
Okay, we're going to work onyour anger.
Your anger is really behind thedesire to control.
Why are you seeking control?
I don't feel comfortableuncertainty.
Why are you seekinguncomfortable?
Why are you feeling comfortableuncertainty?
So it all goes back to reverseengineering, to figure out
(30:09):
exactly little daily things tohelp you move to the person that
you want to become.
Cassandra (30:18):
Yeah, that's good because in my business, my
mentoring business, you know,I'm all about mitigating
barriers or self-imposedbarriers that's preventing you
from from living your best life.
And it's interesting because Iusually ask individuals from a
scale of one to ten, and tenbeing the highest, where are you
on that scale and living yourbest life?
(30:40):
And you know that's like whatare you talking about?
You know, some peopleimmediately say I'm an eight,
you know, or I'm a, I'm like.
They haven't even reallythought about what their best
life looks like.
So you have to find from themwhat it is that is your best
life and why is it the samething that you do?
(31:00):
You know, as you indicated, allcoaches are different.
You know, this is the way I domy process.
The center will probably do theprocess a little different, but
still, that's the first thingand it's kind of like are you
ready to be, are you ready forthis?
Because you have to do sometough love.
(31:20):
If this is what they want to do, you have to say the why.
Like people like I just want tofeed my kids, just like you
said.
Well, okay, we all want to do.
That's the survival mode.
Okay, but what's the real whyso?
Denise (31:32):
you're right, you're right on on that one, I
appreciate that you know, msCassandra, I know that you talk
a lot about being present, right, and I know people are
listening and they're trying tomultitask right now, and so I
would like I just want to callit out right now If you want to
take that shift, you need to bepresent and engaged in what you
(31:52):
want to get out of thisconversation.
Cassandra (31:55):
Exactly, exactly.
You get out what you put in.
It's just like in school a testor a speech or whatever.
A training, right, exactlyright.
Denise, you have a podcastcalled Learn to Be the Real you,
unapologetically, is that right?
(32:22):
Yes, your podcast name, theintroverted entrepreneur podcast
, right, okay, um, and you'reusually not on others podcasts,
why are you choosing to be onpodcast now as a guest?
Denise (32:33):
I did a really good job of steering people.
Obviously, I'm a coach, right,so I do that professionally,
right, right, but service comesin lots of different angles,
right, and I know that if I amnot in control of the show, it
might bring out some ideas orthings that I never considered
(32:55):
to talk about.
So I love to be in service indifferent angles and this is a
different way to be of service.
Cassandra (33:05):
Okay, Okay, now, how long have you been a guest?
Denise (33:10):
I have.
I mean, I got invited to be aguest a few times last year, but
this year I was thinking like Ireally want to be challenged, I
really want to be on my toesright and when you're a host,
obviously, cassandra, you get.
This is your, your sandbox, youget control or deviate but when
(33:32):
you're when you're a guest likeyou've relinquished control
right and I want to be able tobe comfortable in who I am and
the power that has been bestowedupon me, to be like I'm okay
that I don't know what's goingto happen next.
I can still be, at peace that's.
Cassandra (33:50):
That's awesome, because we were talking about
before we came on about.
I saw that you said you were anintrovert and then I said, well
, so am I.
And then you said, well, I can.
Well, let me, let me talk alittle bit about that.
You know so, when people aresurprised, many people are
(34:11):
surprised, and probably with you, that you are an introvert.
Do you find that, or change thedynamic, that you're not an
introvert, you're both?
Denise (34:21):
Well, it's funny because I've actually had the privilege
of talking with some very, verywell-renowned therapists about
childhood trauma talking withsome very, very well-renowned
therapists about childhoodtrauma and I have talked about
this idea in some of my articleson my website, denisegleecom,
about faux or fake introvertversus fake extrovert, and what
(34:43):
what I'm talking about is in our, it's a response, adaptation to
stressful situations.
So in order to me, for me, makepeace like not to make peace,
rather, but to understand theworld around me I needed to go
as inward as I could, tode-stress, to calm down, to
analyzing.
I didn't want to speak out loud, but I noticed that when I'm at
(35:07):
calm and at ease, I can easilyconverse, I can easily get my
energy from other people.
So, when people think aboutintrovert versus extrovert, it
was this is a psychological termdubbed by Carl Jung where,
where does your source of energy?
From inside yourself or fromoutside?
And I realized, when I amengaged in topics that have
(35:28):
really thrilled me, yes, I'mtotally, topics have really
thrilled me.
Yes, I'm totally effervescent,yes, I'm extroverted, but when
I'm around people in situationsthat are scary, unknown or I
don't feel comfortable, my sin Iwant to retreat inward right,
okay, that's good, because I'man introvert and you know I
always say what, when I sharethat with people, no, you're,
(35:50):
you're not.
Cassandra (35:51):
Then they're going to tell me what I'm not and I'm a
processor.
You know we could be in ameeting and you know I'll just
sit there and try to geteverything in.
You know, and at one time Iused to have this barrier that
says, oh, they feel like I'm notwith it because I'm not
contributing, you know, and so Ihad to get away with that, you
(36:13):
know.
And then there are times that Iretreat and I feel good about
that, and then it's like, okay,it's time to speak up because
I'm hearing what's going on.
Now it's my turn.
And then it's like EF Hutton,whenever she speaks, you know,
people listen.
So it's not and we're not sayingmy, my listeners, that
extroverts are a bad thing.
We're not saying trauma is abad thing.
(36:35):
You know we're not saying that.
And we're not saying thatbarriers are a bad thing,
because we all have these things.
We all have barriers and andand, particularly when we say,
well, I should have done this,yeah, I'm a bad person.
(36:58):
And when you say I should,that's shame, you don't should
on me.
You know, that's kind of what Itell people I should, I should
have done this, I should havedone that, so, um.
So I'm with you on theintrovert extrovert and I'm
happy to say that I'm anintrovert and I'm happy to say
I'm extrovert when I have to be.
So we're not saying all of thisfor people to start feeling bad.
(37:19):
We're just kind of talkingabout this is the real deal,
this is the real you.
It's kind of like your podcastand you're unapologetically
about it.
You know, learn to be the real.
You, I think, is critical aboutit.
You know, learn to be the real.
You, I think, is critical.
And one thing that I usuallysay is I had read an article
about a hospice nurse,individuals who are
(37:41):
transitioning and before theypass, you wanted to know do they
have any regrets?
And it was like unbelievablethe regrets that they said they
have.
Times are changing now, soperhaps one of the regrets that
really bothered me is they saidthey wish they would have been
more true to themselves and I'mlike, wow, oh, wow, is that a
regret?
(38:03):
And you talked about choiceearlier and we all have a choice
and a choice to me is a know.
So for that individual it wasprobably a common denominator to
say I wish I had been true tomyself.
More people said that, ratherthan I wish I didn't work so
hard, that's, you know, I wish Iwould have spent more time with
(38:24):
family.
So that, right there, I thoughtwas real interesting.
So I really liked your podcastand I am going to start
listening to it so I can makesure that I'm learning to be the
real you, that I'm actually thereal person, because I'm still
a work in progress.
Denise (38:42):
Oh well, thank you.
I definitely talk about beingthe real you, but my podcast
name is the IntrovertedEntrepreneur Podcast.
Cassandra (38:49):
Okay, all right Now.
I don't know where the real youcame from.
I saw it somewhere that thatwas the name of your podcast, so
I apologize for that, butthat's probably talking about
being the real you.
Denise (39:01):
That's probably where it came from, word Association.
Cassandra (39:03):
Yeah, exactly For my listeners.
What are the practical tools toturn your obstacles into
opportunities?
Denise (39:18):
For a lot of us who have gone through situations that
were confusing, bewildering,uncomfortable and we didn't have
the tools to either understandnor be able to influence.
We feel a sense of helplessness, sense of hopelessness.
(39:38):
We have a myopic vision of thefact that we're crowded in and
we can't break free out of thebox or wherever we feel like
we're constrained.
And the best tip?
I have a few tips.
The best tip is I want you toask why.
For a lot of us, the reason whywe feel like we have obstacles
(39:58):
is because we never ask the why.
Why is that?
Who told you that We've donesuch a great job as human beings
and giving reasons why we can't?
We don't put enough of thatenergy into why we can't.
The next thing is I would lovepeople to understand is to
(40:22):
explore your creativity.
It's a god-given thing.
Remember when we were kids andwe found scrap the paper and
somehow turn that into a trunk,a donkey or whatever.
We we can just figure somestuff together and we let our
imaginations run wild.
That that little girl, thatlittle boy, is still within you
(40:43):
right now.
What can you transform?
I don't care what you have.
Don't tell me you can't startbecoming a hairdresser, I don't
have a cosmetology lesson.
Who said you couldn't go to thecosmetology school down the
street and do a barterarrangement and get some hours
in?
Oh, I don't want anybody sayingno.
(41:03):
I'm going to say I don't wantanybody rejecting me.
Well sweetheart, you have tounderstand that they're not a no
.
No, no's are fine, and maybeit's a not right now, or maybe
it's banging on more doors.
Right Another thing is I reallymentioned right now was
persistence.
And then the other last thing Iwant to share is faith in
(41:31):
something beyond just you.
The reason why we think as anobstacle is that we think that
it's all in our power, all onour strength we have to come up
with without anybody input,because we believe that we have
to do it our way.
Sweetheart, maybe there's waysthat other people have done
right that you haven't evenconsidered.
(41:51):
Perhaps there are books, perhapsthere's obviously podcasts like
this you're listening to.
Maybe you need to tap intosomebody else as well to get
some well needed refreshment.
Cassandra (42:04):
Right, exactly, that's good, exactly, I like
those tools.
And made me think of I have theABCs too.
I have an ABC formula and Icall it a secret formula.
It's kind of like, you know,when I'm talking about
(42:32):
self-imposed barriers, like,like you indicated, like why do
you think that you can't be this, or why why not?
You know, acknowledge thatbarrier.
I mean what, what?
Acknowledge it, and then andthen kind of think, well, where
did you get it from?
What was your belief?
I mean, where did that beliefcome from?
You know, like, like for me, Iwas a perfectionist.
I still am, you know, but I'mgetting better with it.
So that means I've been throughsome trauma, right, but I'm OK
with that.
(42:54):
And so then you know, once youknow and understand where that
belief came from, that perhapsyou're not good enough to do
this, then it's time to changethe narrative.
You know, because, if you like,for me the perfectionist came
from my mom.
You know, do this, why aren'tyou doing that?
Why do you look like that?
Why do you have that dress on?
You know, it's like eggshellsstepping on eggshells going to
(43:17):
her because I wanted to makesure I was just right, you know.
So, when I understood where itcame from and I acknowledged it.
Then I was able to change thenarrative about being being
perfect, so to speak, with noperfect person out there.
Being perfect, so to speak,where there's no perfect person
out there but God.
That's the way that I see that.
So any last words because thisis the journey from survival to
(43:41):
success is the topic of ourpodcast today and, as you
indicated, denise, based on whatyou've been through and you're
not the only one that's beenthrough stuff but you got beyond
that and you see yourself assuccessful because we talked
about what you thought you were.
(44:01):
So now tell the listeners whatyou are now, as you indicated a
child of God, you know.
I'm confident, so just thinkabout where you were and where
you are now.
I think it's great, yeah, yeah.
Denise (44:16):
You know, as we've been talking, cassandra, one of the
things that it's been reallyapparent to me is that we only
box ourselves based on all ourown narrative our own narrative,
and if we are to really becomethe way we're designed to become
right, it's from a place ofhumility and surrender, right
(44:42):
and curiosity.
Cassandra (44:44):
Right, exactly, and you will be amazed if you
surrender.
If you surrender, so, denise,tell my listeners how they can
get in touch with you yeah, I'vemade it super, super easy.
Denise (45:00):
You literally just take my name, denise g lee, and put
it in google, or just take thatwhole name and then add a dot
com, and then you'll be able toreach me okay, great.
Cassandra (45:12):
And for those who are listening, like looking at the
MP4 version, not just the audio,I'm telling you guys that I'm
moving around because it just sohappened that, for some reason,
the sun will not go to my rightor to my left, it just wants to
stay right, right in my faceand and I decided that it is
(45:35):
what it is.
You know, I'm like, well, maybeyou know I could reschedule
this podcast because it's notright, it's not perfect, so
that's just a demonstration.
Hey, that's what it is, and Iam confident that you got
something out of this podcasttoday and I also want you to
(45:55):
share it with individuals thatyou know this will be just right
on for those individuals.
You know how to get in touchwith Denise to thank her for her
(46:16):
insight and her experience andher openness.
That has been a blessing for somany of you and for me as well.
So, my listeners, this podcastwill be on all podcast platforms
.
So this is what I always say toeverybody Bye for now, and God
bless you all.
And again, denise, thank you somuch.
Denise (46:32):
Thank you for having me.
I'm blessed.
Thank you.
Cassandra (46:47):
Oh, that's so funny Because as soon as I turned off,
the sun got out, isn't?
Denise (46:54):
that amazing.
What can I say?
Yeah, well, I really had a funtime.
Cassandra, thank you so muchfor allowing me the time to talk
with your audience.
Yeah, thank you.
Cassandra (47:05):
Are you in California ?
Denise (47:07):
No, ma'am, I'm in Texas, okay.
Cassandra (47:09):
Because I know Shepard.
He comes to my church a lot.
I know him Well.
I don't know him personally,but I've heard him because he's
a visitor.
Denise (47:23):
He comes to our church all the time and speaks oh wow,
I didn't know that.
Cassandra (47:30):
I'm glad I mentioned that.
I am too.
That's the ABC guy.
Glad I mentioned that I am too.
That's the ABC guy for you.
Denise (47:43):
Yes, Right, right.
And when I, when he comes toour church again, I'm going to
mention that and tell him howthat that message really blessed
someone that I've spoken with.
I listen to him all the time.
Cassandra (47:51):
Yes, yeah, and I've never met him in person, so
that's awesome.
Yeah, well, look, god bless you.
Thank you, continue to do whatyou do and, as I say to
everybody, bye for now.
Yes, okay, all right, all right, okay.
Good day everyone.
I'd like to welcome you to Isyour Way In your way podcast and
my name is CassandraCrawley-Mayo as your host, and
I'm so thankful that you all arehere today.
And, for those new listeners, Ijust want to share a little bit
about what this podcast isabout.
It's actually a podcast forwomen but men are certainly
(00:21):
welcome because you have womenin your life but this is about
individuals who are stuck,individuals who know that
there's something calling theirsoul to do something different,
maybe to forgive somebody, ormaybe you want to be an
entrepreneur, maybe you want tobe promoted, maybe you want to
open your own business, maybeyou want to get out of a
(00:42):
relationship that's toxic, maybeyou just want to do something
different and you're stuck withand you're not quite sure how to
get out of it.
So this podcast actually talksto special guests.
I call all my guests veryspecial and we talk about topics
related to what I say personalimprovement, even some business
(01:05):
improvement, and it also willenable you to have some
self-reflection based on some ofthe things that you've heard,
and I always am hopeful thatwhatever you hear it'll do
something in your belly.
I call it like a fire in yourbelly and say you know what, if
she can do that, I can too.
So my special guest today isDenise Lee, and I'd like to
(01:26):
introduce you to Denise.
Well, hello, denise.
Denise (01:30):
How are you?
I'm doing good, I'm blessed andI'm so happy to just wherever
we're going to go.
We're just going to have God'sway in this conversation.
Cassandra (01:41):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I concur with that.
Now, before I get started, I'mgoing to read a little bit about
Denise, just so you guys canget a little not real deep
understanding yet.
I think the questions are goingto enable you to do this, but
just so you can have a littlebackground on her.
Denise is a transformation coachdedicated to helping business
(02:04):
owners and leaders overcomeinternal and external challenges
.
Drawing from her own experienceof facing fears and
uncertainties while growing herbusiness, denise discovered her
true calling.
That's phenomenal when wediscover our true calling,
because a lot of us want to knowwhat our purpose is and
(02:25):
everything.
But anyway, her true calling isempowering others to break
through these barriers.
With over a decade ofexperience, denise now guides
leaders in making strategic,growth-oriented choices by
simplifying complex decisions,complex decisions.
(02:46):
Her empathetic, actionableapproach combines real life
examples and straightforwardadvice, helping clients shift
their mindset and unlock clarityand success.
Her journey of resilience andgrowth will resonate with you
guys on Is your Way In your Way?
She's going to offer them somepractical tools to turn
obstacles into opportunities.
Wow, that's.
That's good, denise.
(03:06):
Let me ask you before you I'mgoing to say you struggled to to
grow your own business a bitTell us what life was like prior
to that.
What was like your, your, yourbackstory a little bit prior to
(03:29):
that, what was it like?
Denise (03:30):
your backstory?
A little bit oh boy, oh boy.
So I'm I'm assuming everybodyhere is 18 years and up.
So I have some user discretion,as advised, when I'm about to
say this, because when I explainthat I am an incest survivor,
rape survivor, I'm an alcoholic,recovering alcoholic.
I have all these these thingsthat have happened to me and
(03:50):
they look at me like are you,are you OK, are you functional?
And I'm like, yes, but it tooka long, long road to get here.
Two West African immigrants wasraised in the middle-class
household.
Unfortunately, behind all thewhite picket fence and the
little poodle named Buster,there was a lot of turmoil.
(04:12):
My father, though he was aninvestment banker.
He truly mismanaged his moneyand he was also a philanderer,
there's no other way of puttingit.
My mother I didn't feelconnected at all towards any,
her husband and, frankly,anybody, and she used me as a
(04:32):
play thing, emotionally,verbally, sexually, any way you
can.
And that happened from zero, aslong as I can remember, till 11
years old.
So the foster care system tookme away briefly, had a lot of
turbulent situations from then,was raped by school counselor.
I mean, I had just so muchthings going along.
(04:54):
I turned to alcohol, I turnedto all sorts of stuff and,
remarkably, I went to college.
Remarkably, I got a corporatejob.
Remarkably, I was able to leavethat environment that was
literally enabling me to be avile, disgusting person that was
only about chasing fame andprestige and not connecting with
(05:20):
the people I was truly tryingto serve, and it didn't really
come through service as abusiness owner that I realized I
had to reconcile.
Who I was as a result of who Ireally was to become because of
God, and so there's a lot ofother stuff in between,
(05:40):
cassandra, but the whole journeywas an evolution of breaking
past what I thought I was andnot not realizing who God
designed me to become.
So it's been quite a journey,but I'm so grateful to be here
yeah, it sounds like it.
Cassandra (05:57):
So tell me, who did you think you were?
Well, based on your background.
Who did you think you were?
Denise (06:05):
I thought I was a whore, I thought I was a drunk.
I thought I was useless, Ithought I could not, I was inept
, I was unqualified.
Cassandra (06:18):
Okay, wow, those are all what I call those
self-imposed barriers, but basedon what you have experienced
the culture would say, thosethings you know, based on what
you've done Now, what now?
So tell my listeners, what wasit about you that made you pivot
(06:41):
?
And, like you said, it was along journey, but you don't see
yourself as that anymore.
Who do you see yourself as now?
Denise (06:51):
See myself as the child of God, I see myself as worthy,
I see myself as redeemed, I seemyself as a instrument for good.
But the process of how I gotthere was not easy for sure, but
it actually came in a in acurious kind of way.
(07:13):
It came through surrender.
Every time I felt that Icouldn't take certain people
turn situations and I said Idon't know what to do.
I had to surrender.
I had to surrender to God, Ihad to surrender to ideas that
conflicted to the self-limitingthoughts that I gave on myself.
(07:34):
Right, and the concern for me,the way I went out, was
literally stop trying to carryit on my own means.
My own strength, my like, my,my guilt was too heavy.
I couldn't.
It wasn't designed for me tohold on to it anyway all right,
okay, now, how did you realizethat?
Cassandra (07:57):
like, like, what happened that you know?
Um, because many of mylisteners have similarities and
many of them are thinking I'm nogood.
You know, my family didn't loveme.
They gave me away, you know.
So your story to me is isphenomenal because in retrospect
(08:20):
, you're going to share what itwas with you that got you out of
feeling, and you mentioned yourrelationship with God.
Or did somebody turn you on toGod?
Like, how did that happen?
How did that relationship start?
Denise (08:37):
It's funny because I was just sharing this story to my
son, cassandra, the other day.
I said you know, my mother satme down and read Psalm 91 and
Psalm 23.
And I just did not believe in aGod that would have me around
someone who would did vilethings to me, and I went to
(08:59):
church, but I didn't have arelationship with church, so I'm
not going to sit here and saythat it was.
I always had a relationshipwith faith.
God was always 5 000 miles awayfrom me and I think cassandra
to answer your question I wouldhave these little moments where
he would save me from, fromthings that I self-inflicted
(09:20):
damage and stuff like that, andI didn't understand Holy spirit
at the time.
I didn't understand it, but Iwould always just feel comforted
and saying like, and some ofthe people would say to me like
God's watching over you, and Iwould have these moments of
quiet moments where I would justthink and reflect and I would
feel comforted and I knew it wassomething spiritual.
(09:44):
That's my journey, sure.
Cassandra (09:46):
Like everybody who's listening.
Denise (09:48):
They have their own journey, but that was me, oh,
and for me it was being moreattuned to that little voice,
that comforting spirit, that wasmy journey.
Cassandra (09:58):
Mm, hmm, mm, hmm.
That's that's good, that's good, that's that's good, that's
good.
You talked about things thatoccurred, that it confirmed
something, confirmed yourcalling.
What specifically was that?
Was that?
And to share with the listenerswhat your calling is now.
Denise (10:19):
So there is a.
There's a pastor that Iabsolutely love.
His name is Pastor PaulSherbert.
If you ever had a chance to goto the Bay area, san Francisco
Bay area, check that, check hisministry out.
But one of the things he said,and I truly believe, is the ABCs
.
And so the first one is ask.
I wanted to be curious.
I just love asking questionsfrom people who modeled what I
(10:42):
wanted to become.
Cassandra (10:44):
That was number one.
Denise (10:45):
That's A B.
I believe there was somethingbetter.
So you ask, you believe.
You don't have to haveeverything kind of wrapped up,
but I believed in that.
And then C, looking forconferral Like what does that
look like?
You're asking people that knowlike and trust you, the people
(11:06):
who see you in the good, the badand the ugly, like do you see
these traits Like?
Do you see the fact that I canbe communicative?
Or I'm good with numbers?
I'm not good with numbers.
Cassandra (11:17):
You have to find commercial.
Denise (11:18):
My husband laughs at me all the time.
You can't do any kind ofcalculator.
Anyway but I digress, lookingcommercial conferral like look,
I literally had people sayingdenise, you're really good with
being able to break downcomplicated things and make it
simple.
Denise, you're really good with, like, talking with different
types of people.
That was confirmed and it'sjust making sure that I deliver
(11:46):
what was inside of me, becausethat's the thing a lot of people
think is like I need to receive, receive, receive, receive,
receive, receive.
But I needed to deliver outwhat was already placed in me
and you get more in return.
So I think it was my ABCDs thatallowed me to really walk more
and confident with what I knewwas true within me Okay.
Cassandra (12:11):
So once you left your corporate job, was it difficult
?
Denise (12:16):
to leave.
First of all the money, ofcourse.
The money, the healthcare, thesteady paycheck, right, the
steady paycheck.
Oh my gosh.
Cassandra (12:24):
Right.
So Something was really strongenough for you to do that.
What was that?
That?
And I say that because ourlisteners, many of them, want to
leave and do somethingdifferent, but of course I was
(12:44):
the same way.
I get a paycheck every twoweeks.
I get benefits.
I'm like you know that's crazyif I would leave something
without something else.
Tell my listeners how thathappened.
How did all that come about?
Denise (12:57):
Okay, I really want to preface what I have to say for
everyone who's listening tounderstand that, just because
you hate your boss and you don'tlike the work, it's time for
you to spring off and dosomething different.
Right, denise is not sayingthat, and I want everyone else
to know that my situation wasbecause I was literally in a
(13:17):
toxic work environment and atthe time, my husband was full on
and I had ample savings from mycareer that I could be able to
invest in my business.
So I just want to say that veryclear that everybody may not
have the means, opportunity tosupport, the resources to be a
business owner and, that beingsaid, I already had a clientele
(13:42):
that I had, part time, ok, so itwasn't like I was starting from
zero.
So, for those of you guys whoare listening and you say I want
to just be a business owner, Ireally want to ask you are you
ready to be an unpaid servantfor three to five years, because
that's really what it is?
Are you ready to be able tounderstand your client better
(14:03):
than may perhaps even knowyourself, their wants, their
needs, those desires, their,their hesitations?
That's something that you needto consider too.
So, and also are you?
Are you willing to invest inyour own personal development?
A lot of business owners theyfail in the first 90.
90 of them fail within thefirst five years.
Aside from the financial stuffis because they fail to
(14:26):
understand the stressors thatcome that of being a business
owner.
That's not for everyone.
Cassandra (14:32):
Absolutely.
You're exactly right.
I can.
I'll attest to that as a as abusiness owner myself first time
business owner like I could, Icould manage the corporation I
was working for.
I did really good for them.
But then it came a time itwasn't really good for me and
that's when I made a decisionthat I'm going to do what I felt
(14:56):
I was called to do.
And that was a process and ittook time.
And as I wrote my book, one ofthe things I always wanted to do
was write a book.
After I wrote my book I waslike OK, I'm done, that's it,
you know.
And something that I said no,you're not, you're just getting
started, you have to.
It's kind of like you have towhen much is given, much is
(15:21):
required, so you have to giveback.
That book is not for you, it'sfor everybody who receives it.
So you're right, a businessowner is tough.
But for me and it sounds likefor you I just have a knowing
that.
I know that.
I know this is something that Ishould be doing and that's what
drives me.
(15:41):
And, in addition to that, Goddrives me too, you know, because
he's the one that that sayslook, I have the strong
conviction Like this is what youshould be doing, and trust me
and I'll see you through allthat.
So you're right about that.
For those who want to makemoney in the first year, you're
(16:05):
a very fortunate person if youdo, or the second year, or the
third year, you know.
So it's right.
So I am so with you on that.
I'm like, wow, that's amazing.
Let's talk a little bit aboutthe trauma you experienced.
Yeah, and I say that againbecause of my audience
(16:30):
Everything is for my listenersand it's so much trauma that's
going on out there and justbeing able to not actually let
it go, but put it aside or getthe support or whatever you need
in order to overcome that,because it stops a lot of people
(16:51):
and then some people, it drivesthem like I'm going to be this
and I'm going to do this.
So what happens if a persondoesn't get healed from it?
Do you consider yourself beinghealed from the trauma you've
gone through?
Denise (17:07):
Okay, so, if you'll indulge me, I want to make sure
that we're all clear abouttrauma, okay, yes, so there's a
couple things I want to makesure everybody understands.
Okay, so every the a trauma is asituation or event that you
lack either the emotional, thephysical or the psychological
(17:30):
tools to either understand or toadapt to, meaning that you may
see something that other peoplemay be able to easily overcome,
either because of their age,their experience or their
proximity.
And the best way I've alwaysexplained it to people was
imagine you see a horrific carcrash Right now.
(18:12):
You're the person that's 500feet away, who has never seen a
car crash, may have a completelydifferent reaction from someone
who's a first responder, afirefighter, a doctor, who sees
this stuff almost every week,all the time.
Right, exactly the kid in thecar may have a completely
different perspective than the40-year-old man who's also had a
previous car crash.
So it depends on your age, yourexperience, your proximity,
right?
And then one other thing I justreally want to mention trauma's
coming to theity, part oftraumas Everyone thinks of
(18:34):
traumas as I was abused or hit,or for a lot of us who came out
of corporate America, that wastraumatic within itself.
That's a whole different storyas a problem, and so everyone
thinks that trauma is that yougot hit or something else, but
so it comes in differentvarieties.
(18:55):
It could be chronic work right,that's traumatic, right, it
could be you are in a familywhere money is mismanaged that's
trauma.
So I really want to validatefor everybody who thinks like,
well, it wasn't trauma.
Well, what if your fatheralways left every night and he
never explained to you what washappening?
That is trauma.
(19:17):
So, that being said, everybody,90% of us in the course of our
life, will experience a form ofeither some form of trauma,
either a little t, like thoselittle moments, chronic
stressful moments or somethingbig that just rocks your world,
and so to sit here and say thatI am completely healed from
(19:39):
every single trauma that I'veever experienced is folly.
That's not.
That's not the case now, andhave I been able to adapt and
understand what had happened, tobe able to respond
appropriately and be able totell my story?
That's how you know when you'rehealed.
Cassandra (19:56):
Okay, good, good, because you're very open with it
.
Yeah, right, yeah, and sothat's one of the things that
individuals can do.
And you're right on, denise,and I'm so glad that you defined
what trauma was, because I'mthinking of a time in my life
(20:22):
and even when I wrote my book.
The book is love letterswritten to women and they're
like, for example, dear womenwho have scars and resentment,
and they're like, for example,dear women who have scars and
resentment, you know, or dearwomen that compare yourselves to
others.
And I just kind of want to talkabout those scars and
(20:46):
resentment and how I had to.
Well, first of all, the reasonit took me a long time to write
the book because I didn't wantto be exposed OK, I don't want
people to know my stuff, and Ididn't know what people would
say and all of that.
But then eventually I got overthat, because what I've been
through, so many other peoplehave been through, may not be
the same exact thing, but justsomething different and based on
(21:08):
the scars that I had.
That was trauma for me.
But just something differentand based on the scars that I
had.
That was trauma for me.
You know, it was trauma for me,for my for me to find out that
I had a sister that everybodyknew about and I didn't you know
, so I dealt with that for years.
So I saw that as a form oftrauma for me growing up.
So that's why I'm really reallyglad that you you brought that
(21:29):
up, really glad that you um, youbrought that up.
Um, you also talked about therewere different types of what you
call them.
Um, was it people?
You talked about there?
Different types of people, andone was stable.
You talked about ancient.
Denise (21:46):
Oh right, yeah, so we didn't talk about it, but I can
definitely talk about that.
But to your, to your pointearlier, I want to say I know
that you talked about in yourbook external and internal
storms and I really wanted toamplify that, if I may.
You know for a lot of us thatwhen we're going through
(22:08):
something traumatic, right wehave.
Our world is rocked, our way ofhow we relate to ourselves and
how we view people has changedand we have feelings that are
unprocessed anger, guilt, shame,resentment, all that.
That storm is brewing inside ofus, right.
And then we've also got thestorms are brewing out around us
(22:28):
, the people who are unable orunwilling to be able to comfort
or relate or understand with you, right okay, I got you.
That's good yeah that's good allright, so so, um, there are
three, four different types ofpeople in the world.
(22:49):
Okay, if you're lucky, one ofthe lucky 20, 30 percent of us,
you're considered a stableperson.
Emotionally stable person,meaning that you're able to
understand, relate, process,communicate in a way that shows
love and concern shows love andconcern for yourself as well as
(23:10):
other people.
Right, that's the ideal happycase.
Stable, confident person.
Unfortunately, if you have gonethrough any type of chronic
stress or traumatic incidents,you fall into one of these other
categories you are an anxiousperson.
And that's in clinical terms,it's called neurotic.
And so what that's in clinicalterms is called neurotic.
(23:32):
And so what that is is you'reconstantly fearing what had
happened or what will happen,and you're constantly time
traveling in the past or thepresent.
And you're and those kind ofpersonalities are, the ones that
are people pleasers, the onesthat will never, ever say no,
even despite the fact thatthey've got 10 other things that
(23:54):
they got going onsimultaneously.
I'll drop everything,sweetheart, and I'll come and
help you.
They're the ones who have thefull workload and they'll do
everything.
That's it.
Or you may fall into the bin ofthe avoid it, where you believe
you're incompetent or unworthy.
You don't want any criticismwhatsoever and you will.
(24:15):
You're the one who willprocrastinate or avoid, or
you're the ones who are quick tobe sarcastic or say snippy
things, all to keep people awayfrom you.
And then there's the last one isaway from you, and then there's
the last one is disorganized,where you have this push pull
(24:36):
situation where I love you, comeclose.
No, don't come too close.
No, I want to spend time withyou.
No, not, not really.
These are the people that wecall wishy-washy, and anyone
who's anxious, avoiding ordisorganized has gone through
unprocessed trauma.
Cassandra (24:50):
Okay, that's good.
Say that again If anybody'swhat Anxious.
Denise (24:56):
Say it again Anxious, avoided or disorganized.
You have unprocessed trauma.
Cassandra (25:02):
Okay, all right.
So individuals listening tothat was like wow, so it's
enabling them to think aboutreally Like.
Some people are like so did Igo through any trauma?
You know they're not.
They're not quite sure whetherthey went through trauma or not,
but those are some types ofsome behaviors that will
(25:27):
articulate whether they've gonethrough trauma.
Is that what you're saying?
Denise (25:31):
Yeah, I mean there's a lot of characteristics for
someone who has've gone throughtrauma.
Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, I mean there's a lot ofcharacteristics for someone who
has unhealed trauma.
They're suspicious, they blame,they externalize, they use
magical thinking.
Magical thinking and saying ifI was there in this certain time
, this certain place, then maybeI could have changed events.
In these sequences, they arethe ones who minimize their
interactions with people.
(25:51):
No, it was.
I wasn't that part of thatproblem, it was really their
problem.
Or they magnify If everyonewouldn't do things my way,
everything would be perfect, andso they.
There's more cognitive.
It's called cognitivedistortion.
The fancy way for how you thinkis not in line with reality.
Right?
Cassandra (26:10):
Okay, you think is not in line with reality, right,
okay, and you also what I'veread and did some reading about
you.
Let's talk about the mindsets.
Yeah, how do you, what do youdo with your clients to shift
their mindset?
Give us some examples aboutthat.
Denise (26:27):
Well, this is making the assumption, cassandra, they
actually want to heal, becausenot everyone who's thirsty wants
to drink, ok, ok.
So we're making this assumption, sure, and we're also making
the assumption that they're notaddicted to being a victim of.
(26:52):
People love sharing theirstories about their woes and how
everybody mistreated them, andglorifying all the pain that
they experienced so they canmake themselves feel special
right I'm not saying we're notspecial, for sure everyone's
special special.
We all are right, we're allspecial but.
If you're doing it at theexpense of ignoring your part,
your culpability or what thewhat was really happening.
You're mistaking, you'remistaken about who you really
(27:15):
are.
So when we're making the shiftinto our mindset, we're actually
saying to ourselves I am awareand I am ready to be able to see
truths about myself and others,which may feel uncomfortable
and may be downright painful,and I'm willing to be able to be
responsible and how I choose tomove forward despite what had
(27:39):
happened.
So, it's the choice, with eyes,open, feet on the ground, open
heart, to understand like why amI really and what part did I
play and what can I do now?
Cassandra (27:54):
Right.
Okay, so you are a coach tohelping business owners and
leaders.
Could you give an example inregards to a business owner or a
leader who said I'm ready, I'mopen to what you're going to do.
I know I need to shift mymindset.
(28:16):
I'm all open to what you say,denise or Ms Lee.
So what process would you useafter that with individuals?
Denise (28:27):
For me, this is the way my practice.
Everybody's practice is alittle bit different, but my
practice is literally goingreverse engineering, meaning I'd
love to know if you want toshift shift to what?
What person do you want tobecome and why do you want to
become it?
Because we can't be able tomove forward without a map in
(28:50):
mind.
Like, think about it, when youwant to go somewhere new, where
you're traveling, you do justsay, hey, I want to go to to
chuck your cheese.
And then what's the machinegonna say, well, where?
yeah, right, exactly, yeah, yeahand so and so I always like to
ask, like why is this important?
(29:11):
So that we actually have someclarity, Because some people
they have an idea of I just wantto be able to make the comments
.
I want to make lots of money.
Well, why do you want to makemoney?
Cassandra (29:22):
That's right, that's right.
Denise (29:25):
Right, like I want to feed my kids, everybody wants to
feed their kids.
I got to get out of here realwide, like really, and how is
this going to be of use?
So once we understand that,then the next thing is what
traits within you that you findthat is getting in the way of
(29:46):
your success.
And then we come to actionitems to be able to say, okay,
we're going to work on this.
Okay, we're going to work onyour anger.
Your anger is really behind thedesire to control.
Why are you seeking control?
I don't feel comfortableuncertainty.
Why are you seekinguncomfortable?
Why are you feeling comfortableuncertainty?
So it all goes back to reverseengineering, to figure out
(30:09):
exactly little daily things tohelp you move to the person that
you want to become.
Cassandra (30:18):
Yeah, that's good because in my business, my
mentoring business, you know,I'm all about mitigating
barriers or self-imposedbarriers that's preventing you
from from living your best life.
And it's interesting because Iusually ask individuals from a
scale of one to ten, and tenbeing the highest, where are you
on that scale and living yourbest life?
(30:40):
And you know that's like whatare you talking about?
You know, some peopleimmediately say I'm an eight,
you know, or I'm a, I'm like.
They haven't even reallythought about what their best
life looks like.
So you have to find from themwhat it is that is your best
life and why is it the samething that you do?
(31:00):
You know, as you indicated, allcoaches are different.
You know, this is the way I domy process.
The center will probably do theprocess a little different, but
still, that's the first thingand it's kind of like are you
ready to be, are you ready forthis?
Because you have to do sometough love.
(31:20):
If this is what they want to do, you have to say the why.
Like people like I just want tofeed my kids, just like you
said.
Well, okay, we all want to do.
That's the survival mode.
Okay, but what's the real whyso?
Denise (31:32):
you're right, you're right on on that one, I
appreciate that you know, msCassandra, I know that you talk
a lot about being present, right, and I know people are
listening and they're trying tomultitask right now, and so I
would like I just want to callit out right now If you want to
take that shift, you need to bepresent and engaged in what you
(31:52):
want to get out of thisconversation.
Cassandra (31:55):
Exactly, exactly.
You get out what you put in.
It's just like in school a testor a speech or whatever.
A training, right, exactlyright.
Denise, you have a podcastcalled Learn to Be the Real you,
unapologetically, is that right?
(32:22):
Yes, your podcast name, theintroverted entrepreneur podcast
, right, okay, um, and you'reusually not on others podcasts,
why are you choosing to be onpodcast now as a guest?
Denise (32:33):
I did a really good job of steering people.
Obviously, I'm a coach, right,so I do that professionally,
right, right, but service comesin lots of different angles,
right, and I know that if I amnot in control of the show, it
might bring out some ideas orthings that I never considered
(32:55):
to talk about.
So I love to be in service indifferent angles and this is a
different way to be of service.
Cassandra (33:05):
Okay, Okay, now, how long have you been a guest?
Denise (33:10):
I have.
I mean, I got invited to be aguest a few times last year, but
this year I was thinking like Ireally want to be challenged, I
really want to be on my toesright and when you're a host,
obviously, cassandra, you get.
This is your, your sandbox, youget control or deviate but when
(33:32):
you're when you're a guest likeyou've relinquished control
right and I want to be able tobe comfortable in who I am and
the power that has been bestowedupon me, to be like I'm okay
that I don't know what's goingto happen next.
I can still be, at peace that's.
Cassandra (33:50):
That's awesome, because we were talking about
before we came on about.
I saw that you said you were anintrovert and then I said, well
, so am I.
And then you said, well, I can.
Well, let me, let me talk alittle bit about that.
You know so, when people aresurprised, many people are
(34:11):
surprised, and probably with you, that you are an introvert.
Do you find that, or change thedynamic, that you're not an
introvert, you're both?
Denise (34:21):
Well, it's funny because I've actually had the privilege
of talking with some very, verywell-renowned therapists about
childhood trauma talking withsome very, very well-renowned
therapists about childhoodtrauma and I have talked about
this idea in some of my articleson my website, denisegleecom,
about faux or fake introvertversus fake extrovert, and what
(34:43):
what I'm talking about is in our, it's a response, adaptation to
stressful situations.
So in order to me, for me, makepeace like not to make peace,
rather, but to understand theworld around me I needed to go
as inward as I could, tode-stress, to calm down, to
analyzing.
I didn't want to speak out loud, but I noticed that when I'm at
(35:07):
calm and at ease, I can easilyconverse, I can easily get my
energy from other people.
So, when people think aboutintrovert versus extrovert, it
was this is a psychological termdubbed by Carl Jung where,
where does your source of energy?
From inside yourself or fromoutside?
And I realized, when I amengaged in topics that have
(35:28):
really thrilled me, yes, I'mtotally, topics have really
thrilled me.
Yes, I'm totally effervescent,yes, I'm extroverted, but when
I'm around people in situationsthat are scary, unknown or I
don't feel comfortable, my sin Iwant to retreat inward right,
okay, that's good, because I'man introvert and you know I
always say what, when I sharethat with people, no, you're,
(35:50):
you're not.
Cassandra (35:51):
Then they're going to tell me what I'm not and I'm a
processor.
You know we could be in ameeting and you know I'll just
sit there and try to geteverything in.
You know, and at one time Iused to have this barrier that
says, oh, they feel like I'm notwith it because I'm not
contributing, you know, and so Ihad to get away with that, you
(36:13):
know.
And then there are times that Iretreat and I feel good about
that, and then it's like, okay,it's time to speak up because
I'm hearing what's going on.
Now it's my turn.
And then it's like EF Hutton,whenever she speaks, you know,
people listen.
So it's not and we're not sayingmy, my listeners, that
extroverts are a bad thing.
We're not saying trauma is abad thing.
(36:35):
You know we're not saying that.
And we're not saying thatbarriers are a bad thing,
because we all have these things.
We all have barriers and andand, particularly when we say,
well, I should have done this,yeah, I'm a bad person.
(36:58):
And when you say I should,that's shame, you don't should
on me.
You know, that's kind of what Itell people I should, I should
have done this, I should havedone that, so, um.
So I'm with you on theintrovert extrovert and I'm
happy to say that I'm anintrovert and I'm happy to say
I'm extrovert when I have to be.
So we're not saying all of thisfor people to start feeling bad.
(37:19):
We're just kind of talkingabout this is the real deal,
this is the real you.
It's kind of like your podcastand you're unapologetically
about it.
You know, learn to be the real.
You, I think, is critical aboutit.
You know, learn to be the real.
You, I think, is critical.
And one thing that I usuallysay is I had read an article
about a hospice nurse,individuals who are
(37:41):
transitioning and before theypass, you wanted to know do they
have any regrets?
And it was like unbelievablethe regrets that they said they
have.
Times are changing now, soperhaps one of the regrets that
really bothered me is they saidthey wish they would have been
more true to themselves and I'mlike, wow, oh, wow, is that a
regret?
(38:03):
And you talked about choiceearlier and we all have a choice
and a choice to me is a know.
So for that individual it wasprobably a common denominator to
say I wish I had been true tomyself.
More people said that, ratherthan I wish I didn't work so
hard, that's, you know, I wish Iwould have spent more time with
(38:24):
family.
So that, right there, I thoughtwas real interesting.
So I really liked your podcastand I am going to start
listening to it so I can makesure that I'm learning to be the
real you, that I'm actually thereal person, because I'm still
a work in progress.
Denise (38:42):
Oh well, thank you.
I definitely talk about beingthe real you, but my podcast
name is the IntrovertedEntrepreneur Podcast.
Cassandra (38:49):
Okay, all right Now.
I don't know where the real youcame from.
I saw it somewhere that thatwas the name of your podcast, so
I apologize for that, butthat's probably talking about
being the real you.
Denise (39:01):
That's probably where it came from, word Association.
Cassandra (39:03):
Yeah, exactly For my listeners.
What are the practical tools toturn your obstacles into
opportunities?
Denise (39:18):
For a lot of us who have gone through situations that
were confusing, bewildering,uncomfortable and we didn't have
the tools to either understandnor be able to influence.
We feel a sense of helplessness, sense of hopelessness.
(39:38):
We have a myopic vision of thefact that we're crowded in and
we can't break free out of thebox or wherever we feel like
we're constrained.
And the best tip?
I have a few tips.
The best tip is I want you toask why.
For a lot of us, the reason whywe feel like we have obstacles
(39:58):
is because we never ask the why.
Why is that?
Who told you that We've donesuch a great job as human beings
and giving reasons why we can't?
We don't put enough of thatenergy into why we can't.
The next thing is I would lovepeople to understand is to
(40:22):
explore your creativity.
It's a god-given thing.
Remember when we were kids andwe found scrap the paper and
somehow turn that into a trunk,a donkey or whatever.
We we can just figure somestuff together and we let our
imaginations run wild.
That that little girl, thatlittle boy, is still within you
(40:43):
right now.
What can you transform?
I don't care what you have.
Don't tell me you can't startbecoming a hairdresser, I don't
have a cosmetology lesson.
Who said you couldn't go to thecosmetology school down the
street and do a barterarrangement and get some hours
in?
Oh, I don't want anybody sayingno.
(41:03):
I'm going to say I don't wantanybody rejecting me.
Well sweetheart, you have tounderstand that they're not a no
.
No, no's are fine, and maybeit's a not right now, or maybe
it's banging on more doors.
Right Another thing is I reallymentioned right now was
persistence.
And then the other last thing Iwant to share is faith in
(41:31):
something beyond just you.
The reason why we think as anobstacle is that we think that
it's all in our power, all onour strength we have to come up
with without anybody input,because we believe that we have
to do it our way.
Sweetheart, maybe there's waysthat other people have done
right that you haven't evenconsidered.
(41:51):
Perhaps there are books, perhapsthere's obviously podcasts like
this you're listening to.
Maybe you need to tap intosomebody else as well to get
some well needed refreshment.
Cassandra (42:04):
Right, exactly, that's good, exactly, I like
those tools.
And made me think of I have theABCs too.
I have an ABC formula and Icall it a secret formula.
It's kind of like, you know,when I'm talking about
(42:32):
self-imposed barriers, like,like you indicated, like why do
you think that you can't be this, or why why not?
You know, acknowledge thatbarrier.
I mean what, what?
Acknowledge it, and then andthen kind of think, well, where
did you get it from?
What was your belief?
I mean, where did that beliefcome from?
You know, like, like for me, Iwas a perfectionist.
I still am, you know, but I'mgetting better with it.
So that means I've been throughsome trauma, right, but I'm OK
with that.
(42:54):
And so then you know, once youknow and understand where that
belief came from, that perhapsyou're not good enough to do
this, then it's time to changethe narrative.
You know, because, if you like,for me the perfectionist came
from my mom.
You know, do this, why aren'tyou doing that?
Why do you look like that?
Why do you have that dress on?
You know, it's like eggshellsstepping on eggshells going to
(43:17):
her because I wanted to makesure I was just right, you know.
So, when I understood where itcame from and I acknowledged it.
Then I was able to change thenarrative about being being
perfect, so to speak, with noperfect person out there.
Being perfect, so to speak,where there's no perfect person
out there but God.
That's the way that I see that.
So any last words because thisis the journey from survival to
(43:41):
success is the topic of ourpodcast today and, as you
indicated, denise, based on whatyou've been through and you're
not the only one that's beenthrough stuff but you got beyond
that and you see yourself assuccessful because we talked
about what you thought you were.
(44:01):
So now tell the listeners whatyou are now, as you indicated a
child of God, you know.
I'm confident, so just thinkabout where you were and where
you are now.
I think it's great, yeah, yeah.
Denise (44:16):
You know, as we've been talking, cassandra, one of the
things that it's been reallyapparent to me is that we only
box ourselves based on all ourown narrative our own narrative,
and if we are to really becomethe way we're designed to become
right, it's from a place ofhumility and surrender, right
(44:42):
and curiosity.
Cassandra (44:44):
Right, exactly, and you will be amazed if you
surrender.
If you surrender, so, denise,tell my listeners how they can
get in touch with you yeah, I'vemade it super, super easy.
Denise (45:00):
You literally just take my name, denise g lee, and put
it in google, or just take thatwhole name and then add a dot
com, and then you'll be able toreach me okay, great.
Cassandra (45:12):
And for those who are listening, like looking at the
MP4 version, not just the audio,I'm telling you guys that I'm
moving around because it just sohappened that, for some reason,
the sun will not go to my rightor to my left, it just wants to
stay right, right in my faceand and I decided that it is
(45:35):
what it is.
You know, I'm like, well, maybeyou know I could reschedule
this podcast because it's notright, it's not perfect, so
that's just a demonstration.
Hey, that's what it is, and Iam confident that you got
something out of this podcasttoday and I also want you to
(45:55):
share it with individuals thatyou know this will be just right
on for those individuals.
You know how to get in touchwith Denise to thank her for her
(46:16):
insight and her experience andher openness.
That has been a blessing for somany of you and for me as well.
So, my listeners, this podcastwill be on all podcast platforms
.
So this is what I always say toeverybody Bye for now, and God
bless you all.
And again, denise, thank you somuch.
Denise (46:32):
Thank you for having me.
I'm blessed.
Thank you.
Cassandra (46:47):
Oh, that's so funny Because as soon as I turned off,
the sun got out, isn't?
Denise (46:54):
that amazing.
What can I say?
Yeah, well, I really had a funtime.
Cassandra, thank you so muchfor allowing me the time to talk
with your audience.
Yeah, thank you.
Cassandra (47:05):
Are you in California ?
Denise (47:07):
No, ma'am, I'm in Texas, okay.
Cassandra (47:09):
Because I know Shepard.
He comes to my church a lot.
I know him Well.
I don't know him personally,but I've heard him because he's
a visitor.
Denise (47:23):
He comes to our church all the time and speaks oh wow,
I didn't know that.
Cassandra (47:30):
I'm glad I mentioned that.
I am too.
That's the ABC guy.
Glad I mentioned that I am too.
That's the ABC guy for you.
Denise (47:43):
Yes, Right, right.
And when I, when he comes toour church again, I'm going to
mention that and tell him howthat that message really blessed
someone that I've spoken with.
I listen to him all the time.
Cassandra (47:51):
Yes, yeah, and I've never met him in person, so
that's awesome.
Yeah, well, look, god bless you.
Thank you, continue to do whatyou do and, as I say to
everybody, bye for now.
Yes, okay, all right, all right, okay.
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