April 19, 2025 • 39 mins
When was the last time you thought about getting older with excitement rather than dread? In this eye-opening conversation with Dr. Debra Heiser, applied developmental psychologist and founder of The Mentor Project, we challenge everything you thought you knew about aging and human potential.
Most of us view life as a physical trajectory - we grow, peak early, then slowly decline. But Dr. Heiser reveals the extraordinary truth about our emotional development, which continues to rise throughout our lives. This explains why so many people report being happier in their 50s, 60s, and beyond than they were decades earlier. The reading glasses are a small price to pay for the wisdom, self-acceptance, and freedom from others' expectations that comes with age.
We explore how midlife and beyond isn't about fading away but rather bearing fruit through mentorship. Dr. Heiser distinguishes true mentoring (which is generative and intrinsically motivated) from coaching or advising. Through powerful stories like Nobel Prize winner Bob Lefkowitz discovering his "six degrees" of mentorship influence, we see how our legacy can extend far beyond what we imagine.
For listeners questioning their purpose or feeling stuck, this episode offers a refreshing perspective on finding meaning outside your job title. Whether you're approaching midlife, already there, or supporting someone who is, you'll gain practical insights on lateral mentoring, creating your legacy tree, and embracing each stage of life with anticipation rather than anxiety.
Ready to stop seeing aging as something to fear and start seeing it as your opportunity to thrive? Listen now and discover why the second half might just be your best half.
Get ready to break free from obstacles and live life on your terms!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cassandra (00:00):
Good day out there to all of my listeners and I'd
like to welcome you to Is yourWay In your Way podcast and yes,
that's the name of my book, isyour Way In your Way, and, as
many of my listeners are aware,it's a self-discovery guide for
women on how to restore yourself, learn from your experiences
and be your true self again.
(00:20):
And it's also those women whoare stuck.
You know there's something thatyou've been wanting to do, or
you know your soul is pullingyou to do something.
Is it to write a book?
Is it to get out of a toxicrelationship?
Is it to minimize thosenegative thoughts that's
(00:40):
preventing you from moving aheador doing what it is that your
dreams are?
So that's why, on here, we justkind of talk about topics
related to well, I would say,enabling you to get out of your
way, so that you can and so thatyou will start living your best
(01:01):
life on your terms, and we havetopics related to personal
improvement, businessimprovement and also these
topics are going to enable youto do some self-reflection.
And so today we're going to dosomething a little different
today and I am super excitedabout our guest and our topic is
(01:21):
going to be a transformativejourney of aging and mentoring,
and this is all about humandevelopment.
And who better to talk aboutthat is my guest, Deborah.
And Deborah, please pronounceyour last name for my listeners.
Deborah (01:39):
Sure.
My last name is Heiser.
Cassandra (01:41):
Heiser, okay, deborah Heiser.
I wanted to make sure andbefore guys, of course, before
my show starts, I always wantthem to pronounce their name so
that I won't mispronounce thename.
But, deborah, I'd like towelcome you to Is your Way, in
your Way, and how excited I amto talk about ageism and
mentoring.
So thanks for coming on.
Deborah (02:03):
Thank you for having me .
I'm really excited to be hereon your show.
Cassandra (02:06):
Thanks for having me, yeah sure Now, listeners, what
I want to do now is to give youa little bit of Deborah's
background, just so you'll havea point of reference as we move
forward in our conversation Now.
Deborah Heiser, phd.
She is an applied developmentalpsychologist, a TEDx talker.
(02:26):
She's an aging specialistspeaker, author and the
visionary founder of the MentorProject, with a profound focus
on aging and human development.
Her groundbreaking research hasearned her international
recognition, including awardsfor her work in depression
(02:47):
identification and dementia.
Her expertise has been featuredin outlets like the New York
Times and Thrive Global, and shecontinues to inspire through
her teaching and consulting.
She's passionate aboutunlocking human potential.
That's why I said we are reallyconnected here, because I am
too.
Her innovative insights bridgegenerations and redefine the
(03:10):
concept of mentorship, makingher a powerful voice for change.
So listen, guys, let's getready and be moved by her wisdom
.
And practical strategies forcreating meaningful impact All
righty now.
And practical strategies forcreating meaningful impact All
righty now.
So I actually changed the topica little bit.
(03:31):
Initially, we were going totalk about how we were all built
to mentor and we are all builtto mentor, and Deborah is going
to talk about that.
But I'd like to know before shestarted the work, like on
before she worked on what I'mcalling unlocking the human
potential.
Deborah, what was your lifelike before you started doing
(03:54):
the work that you're currentlydoing?
Deborah (03:57):
Well, I was a researcher in the field of aging
and I looked at everything wedon't want to have or get.
So I studied depression andfrailty and dementia and and I
studied palliative care, sort ofend of life issues, and so it
(04:18):
was very different because I waslooking at everything through a
sort of a physical lens and I'mnow looking at life through our
emotional lens, which issomething most of us never talk
about.
And the first part of what Iwas studying is stuff that's
really scary to most of us andit's something that we think we
(04:38):
have to look forward to and it'snot Now, what propelled you to
want to do this type of work?
So I was.
I didn't even know what apsychologist was, and when I was
a teenager, my grandmother wasin an assisted living facility
and I went down to visit her andshe wasn't herself.
(05:01):
And so the person who was theresaid, don't worry, we'll fix
her.
And I was like, what do youmean?
And she said, well, I'm apsychologist and you know she's
depressed.
And this is a woman who was.
You know, I could pack a bag ofjust shoes and wear all of her
clothes when I was there.
(05:22):
She was fun and really justeverything that a person would
want to be around in terms ofenthusiasm, and so I was like
you can fix her?
And she said, yes.
So the next time I came down,just a couple months later, she
was better, she wasn't depressed, I want to fix grandma's.
(05:42):
So I changed everything I wasdoing.
I'm back to school and that Iwant to become a psychologist
and I want to focus on aging,and that's what really got me
interested in it.
But I thought all we had tolook forward to was fixing
depression and dementia andfrailty, and all of the things
(06:03):
that I was thinking were what myfuture was going to be.
So that's how I started, andthen I later to look at what we
have to look forward to.
Which is really what we have tolook forward to.
Most of us don't have to lookforward to depression and
dementia.
Most of us to being happier aswe get older.
Cassandra (06:24):
This is good.
This is great.
The reason I asked you and Iwant my listeners to hone in on.
You know, a lot of you arefocusing on what your passion is
and what is it that you shouldbe doing, and we kind of get
fixated on that.
And I say that because I was.
I was really focused on what itwas.
What was it that I should bedoing?
(06:47):
And as I look back on it, Irealized everything I was doing
at that time was what I shouldhave been doing.
And so Deborah had gone to seeher grandmother and just that
experience there triggered herto say you know what I want to
get into this aging?
So I'm saying that to you guys,because don't think things that
(07:08):
you are thinking about doing iscrazy.
We're very intuitive as womenand because of that, we know
exactly, perhaps, what directionwe should go in.
So don't fight it, Just go forit.
Get out of that comfort zone, Iwould say.
And then, for listeners on thephone that are listening to me,
(07:29):
it took me forever to write mybook.
And then I would say to myself,why am I doing this?
Like, oh, who wants to hear mystory?
Or well, you know, I don't wantto do this because I'm getting
older, and because I'm gettingolder, people may not receive me
as well.
So, in other words, Deborah tome is is going to talk a little
(07:49):
bit more about why getting olderfor some people is negative, or
what do you think?
Because of your age, you can'tdo this and you can't do that.
So, Deborah, with that said, umis when one of the things you
said that the most preciousnatural resources us are people,
Absolutely.
Yeah, Now tell us about that.
Deborah (08:12):
So I'm going to start by saying why we think we should
all have a negative lifespan.
Ok, this is how I thought.
Ok, because we think of ourlife as a physical trajectory
which starts, you know, at birth, and then we learn how to walk
and talk and do everything, andthen all of a sudden, at a very
early age, we peak and then wehave a slow, steady decline.
Cassandra (08:34):
That's scary.
Deborah (08:35):
That frightens all of us.
That's why we all sort of shyaway from wanting to talk about
aging, because we can see thatand the part that we can't see
that is happening at the exactsame time is our emotional
development, and that starts atthe same time at birth and that
goes up, up, up and it neverdeclines, ever.
(08:56):
Even though, like I need readingglasses I was just wearing them
before I can't run it and Ican't run as fast I'm happier
than when I was 20.
I'm much happier and that's howwe should expect it.
So when I was talking about,when I gave my TEDx talk, I
talked about how we're wastingour most precious natural
resources and that's us.
(09:17):
It's not oil, coal and gas andstuff like that yes, our own
selves.
Every time we do not engagewith others and get their
intellect out, their values,their culture, we're burning
down a library for every singleperson that we're not connecting
with and getting thatinformation from.
(09:39):
And so that's why I think thatuntil we start to see ourselves
on this emotional journey whichconnects all of us, gets us to
our better selves, we are reallyburning down libraries every
single day.
Cassandra (09:57):
That's interesting and I like the fact that you're
right as we get older, but howour emotional journey, or
whatever based on what couldhave happened in as you indicate
, is not a bad thing, as youindicated, because you're
happier and you're happierperhaps, or and some of my
(10:35):
audience listeners are aging andI'm not saying they're not
happy, but they're more focusedon I got to get married because
I'm I'm getting old, I have tohave a child, I should be, I
should be far beyond where I amnow, or you know, I should have
been able to purchase a homeJust a lot of things that
they're putting on on why theyshould do this because of their
(10:59):
age, rather than cultivating andembracing this right, you're
right, yeah we all live by thosecheck boxes.
Deborah (11:09):
right, I have to do, um , I have to maybe get a degree,
or I have to get a job.
I have to get married, I haveto have kids, I have to get a
you know, a different job I haveto, whatever it goes.
It goes on and on and on.
We can make that list as longas we'd like, and that's
attached to our physical, likewhat we're expecting to do as we
get older, like that's part ofthat journey.
(11:30):
Now, what most of us do, though, is we, we have anxiety about
all that.
That's why, when we're youngerand we're going through all that
and we're figuring out who weare, it's hard to be really
happy, because we've got allthis pressure Like I better do
this, that and the other thing.
Once you hit midlife, you'relike I did it, I'm good, and you
know what I?
don't care what anybody thinksabout me.
Haha, you know it's nice, wehave that.
(11:52):
That's what sort of flips forus after 40 is that once those
boxes are gone, it's like afreedom that lifts from us.
So if you're in the boxchecking phase of life, know
that that goes away.
Those boxes don't go on forever.
If you don't, if you don'tcontinue to check them off you
(12:13):
can relax at some point andfocus on yourself, which?
is really what is so wonderfulabout the second half of life?
As you go inward instead ofoutward, in terms of how you're
thinking about yourself, you'renot as worried about the Joneses
and what they're thinking aboutyou.
You're not as worried aboutwell, I better have a nice
(12:34):
enough house because somebodyelse might think something.
It's really that you're muchmore focused on what makes you
happy.
Cassandra (12:43):
Right, and for those who are not like in their 40s,
what are some things you thinkthey could do to help them?
What I call going through aself-discovery mode.
You know, I'm thinking backwhen I was 40 and I'm like, well
, I was kind of there, but notthere yet.
I'm thinking about, well, Iwant to retire at 60 something,
because that's what they say,you know we should retire, and
(13:07):
for me, I'm like I'll neverretire until I can't do anything
else.
Right, yeah, so why?
Why do you believe any researchor anything that's been?
Uh, that you've come acrosswhere individuals are still not
there, when they're in theirforties, going to 50, they still
(13:28):
focusing on I should have donethis, I should have done that,
or I should have that house, Ishould be married, what, what?
Any research shows anythingabout that?
Deborah (13:37):
well, here's how our our development works and the
stages.
You might have a child that yousee who walks at a very early
age, and you may have anotherchild that walks at a very late
age.
it does not affect them laterthey're going to be the same
later on it doesn't matter thesame with our development and
(13:58):
how we think about ourselves andhow we form our identity and
how we feel about all of thatsort of emotional stuff.
It has the same range.
So you could be 40 or you couldbe 50, you could be 60.
It doesn't matter.
So give yourself some grace,because it's just like a baby
(14:18):
walking or learning to talk.
It doesn't mean a baby's agenius if it talks at six months
versus 16 months.
It's all the same in the end,and the same for our emotional
trajectory.
The real point is that we wantto make sure that if you're
struggling, right, if you'resaying, oh my gosh, I'm
struggling, is it a strugglethat is like, oh, should I check
(14:40):
another box, or is it?
I'm really concerned aboutsomething?
Because, those are two differentthings.
If I'm saying, gee, you know, Ireally wanted a bigger, better
house, but I have one, but I'dreally like a better one, you
know, where are you with this?
Is this a real true struggle?
Where, you know, are you nowsaying I'm really focused on the
(15:01):
Joneses and what they'rethinking about me?
So you know, a lot of that hasto do with where we're going to
get.
Most, all of us do get to theright place and it's within a,
you know, 15 year time bracket.
Cassandra (15:17):
Okay, Okay, good, Let me talk about um, um, I want to
talk about mentoring.
You know, because I know you doa lot of work on mentoring and
before we got started, you know,I made a comment that once I
(15:37):
read and I've mentored a lot inmy life but I never thought of
my parents as mentors, they weremy parents.
But when I think about andbased on the work that you do,
I'd like for you to, I'm curiousto the difference between being
(15:58):
coached versus mentor.
Deborah (16:03):
If you're getting paid, you're not a mentor.
Now, that does not diminish anyother thing.
You could be an advisor.
This is what happens inuniversities and other places.
You could be a coach but you'renot a mentor.
So I like to tell people look,it doesn't diminish anything by
calling it something else, butit's making the wrong
(16:26):
distinction if you have certainthings that you're calling a
mentor that aren't, and then itmakes people say, well, it
failed, it didn't work.
So what mentoring really needsand this might help to
distinguish it is it needs to begenerative.
We're built to mentor by thetime we hit midlife and we
figured out who we are and who.
We've gotten rid of all thosesuperficial friends that we
don't need anymore.
(16:47):
And we figured out who we areand who.
We've gotten rid of all thosesuperficial friends that we
don't need anymore and we havejust a tight knit group of
friends.
We already know we have anexpertise in something it could
be culture, it could be values,it could be whatever it is, it
doesn't have to be work relatedThen we have a desire to give
that back without expectinganything in return from someone.
(17:09):
Okay, and so that'sgenerativity, that's
volunteering, mentoring andphilanthropy.
Okay, so that's the first thingwe need.
The second thing is it has tobe an intrinsically motivated
relationship.
That means that there's no payor reward or certificate or
award or anything like that.
(17:30):
You could be doing it, no onecould ever know you're doing it,
but you still want to do it.
So the way that I think of thatis, if I were to say, hey,
cassandra, would you like tovolunteer at a soup kitchen to
give out free food and beveragesto hungry, thirsty people,
you'd probably say yes.
And if I said now, cassandra,would you go volunteer your time
(17:55):
at Starbucks to go give outfood and beverages?
Yeah, okay.
So most people will say nobecause they would want to get
paid to go to Starbucksalongside everybody else who's
getting paid.
It's that feeling that when yougive your time, whether you're
volunteering or something, youdon't need money reward for it,
(18:15):
whereas if you're going to a job, you're expecting something
from it.
If you don't get a paycheck,you're mad.
So that's another thing that'sneeded.
We also need a meaningfulconnection.
I have to like you and you haveto like me.
There has to be thatrelationship.
It's like a friend.
You know you could meetsomebody and you really click
and you're good friends withthem.
(18:35):
And you might meet somebodyelse who's just as awesome, but
you don't click and that's okay,that's not a failure.
We don't have to be friendswith everybody the same with
mentorship.
We also need to have have trust.
I have to be able to trust thatyou're not going to judge me
for not knowing something andthen not give me a raise if I'm
(18:56):
at work right, or that you knowI'm not gonna.
You have to trust that I'm notgonna come and steal your stuff
right and run off with it.
Yeah, um, and finally, we haveto have a goal.
So if you're just chatting,you're not mentoring.
So if you're coaching, yourgoal is very specific.
You're getting to do that andyou may not like the person,
(19:20):
even it may not be thatmeaningful a connection.
Once you're done, you might bedone, whereas mentoring it
usually is a longer lastingimpact, or that little bit that
you got from that person liveson in you for a long time.
But what they were giving youwas so valuable and you took it
in and you made it a part ofyourself.
Cassandra (19:39):
Okay, okay.
So how does mentoring help,like in the workplace and, and
you talked about, in personaldevelopment?
Deborah (19:48):
how does that help so in the workplace, um, if we're
really engaging in mentorshipappropriately, it can really
help us to rise, and it can alsohelp us to keep the ball, keep
it the wheel, from beingreinvented every time.
So the most impactful way,though, that it works is lateral
(20:12):
mentoring.
Most of us think we have to gofind somebody who's going to
pull us up, right, but that'susually the part that scares
most people.
They say I'm not going to tellsomebody above me, I don't know
how to do something.
They're never going to give me araise above me, I don't know
how to do something.
They're never going to give mea raise, so it stops people from
either being fully honest witha mentor or really opening up to
(20:33):
somebody.
There's that trust factorthat's worrisome.
So a lateral mentor is that yougo to somebody completely in a
different department or somebodywho's completely lateral.
It could be even somebodyoutside of work and you get
their help and their expertise.
They are not above you.
They're the same level, justwith a different area of
(20:54):
expertise, and we see this a lotof times with entrepreneurship.
Cassandra (20:59):
Yes.
Deborah (21:00):
Where you'll see a software engineer will say I
need the help of a hardwareengineer and that's how a lot of
the new innovations happen.
But that can happen in anyindustry at all.
If you're writing a book, likeyou wrote a book, you may need
an editor.
Does that mean that person isabove you?
No, they're lateral to you.
That person is going to helpyou with your book.
(21:21):
Your book is better because ofit.
That's what I mean by howyou'll work.
Cassandra (21:26):
Okay, what motivates one to mentor, though?
Deborah (21:33):
So we get motivated to mentor, and this is the personal
development part.
I have spoken with so manypeople who mentor and if you get
to a certain point, you feelirrelevant, you feel like you're
not productive.
You feel like you're notproductive, you feel like you
aren't like why was I born?
There's so much stuff we cangather and stand on top like
(21:57):
Duffy Duck on top of the moundof riches, and it's not
fulfilling to us.
It's fun to gather it andcollect it, but at a certain
point we say is this it?
Gather it and collect it, butat a certain point we say is
this it?
So, when we give back a pieceof ourselves to somebody else,
it makes us feel like weactually made a difference in
the world.
Right, and I'll?
(22:18):
I'll give you an example theNobel prize winner in 2012 or
2013,.
Bob Lefkowitz.
He wondered why it was that hegot the Nobel Prize so he
decided to look at who mentoredhim and who he mentored, because
he just couldn't quite figureit out right.
(22:40):
It turned out that he, he madewhat was called.
He called a legacy tree, and soit's just like an ancestry.
com tree.
You know where you look at allyour ancestors, but mentors for
him and he realized mentorshipwas the key.
So he wanted to give back andhe couldn't help but give back
and so he drew it all out,including his mentees that he
(23:03):
knew of.
Cassandra (23:04):
Yeah.
Deborah (23:04):
And published it in a journal.
He went to a conference notlong after that and somebody
came up to him and he said hey,bob, I'm six degrees Lefkowitz.
And he said what do you mean?
And he said, well, five peoplework in between you and me.
And Bob said, well, tell meabout your work.
And he did, and it waseverything Bob had started and
(23:26):
he got to see how far out hiswork went into what this person
was doing, and even his wordsand the way that he talked about
it were exactly how Bob hadstarted it and he said that was
one of the most meaningfulthings in his life was to find
out that he mattered six degreesaway from the work that he did.
(23:46):
We don't usually get to do that.
I mean, I really encouragepeople to follow what he did and
make yourself a legacy tree,because we really do matter in
the lives of others and our workand our thoughts and our values
go so far beyond us, and sothat's how we're built to do it.
It's it makes us immortal.
Cassandra (24:06):
Bob is living on in people six degrees away from him
, exactly, exactly, wow, what apowerful story.
I'm curious, though, um, youtalk about meaningful impact,
like like Bob, for example, noteven really knowing that you
(24:27):
know the impact that he's madeas he has, which is his legacy.
And when I think about mylisteners, who are in their way
and there are things that theywant to do, they want to give
back, they want to, I alwaysfelt that having meaning in your
life gives me more reason towant to get up in the morning.
(24:50):
You know, or even why I'm here.
You know there were times whenI'm like, well, why am I here?
I think you said that earlierlike what?
Why am I Am I here to?
To just go to work every day,get paid, pay my bills, and then
you get kind of discouraged.
If that's, that's all that youdo From your experience, how has
(25:15):
your end of even people in yourmentorship research program,
people in your mentorshipresearch program, how do they?
I know the people that arementoring can find meaning
because they're giving.
What about the mentees?
What about that?
The other side of the spectrum?
(25:35):
How?
What's the benefit for them?
That you've seen, observed orhave any stories?
Deborah (25:43):
So, for the mentors, first of all, whenever somebody
is saying, hey, I feel a littlebit like what you know.
Oh, what is next?
Am I?
I'm in the grind, I'm kind ofright.
We all expect that.
That is usually what propels usinto doing what we're built to
do, which is to give back,because we're like, oh my gosh,
what now?
And so that may have been whatprompted you to write your book
(26:04):
or something else which isleaving a legacy, all of those
things do that.
So with the mentors they get tofeel like they're being relevant
right and they get to feel likethey have purpose.
For the mentees we launchedtheir lives.
In some cases Some studentshave patented.
Some students have startedtheir own businesses.
(26:25):
Some students have learned howto do a research skill at a very
young age.
We're launching the lives ofyoung people, while we're at the
same time making ourselvesrelevant and leaving our
legacies.
So we're really all doing whatwe're built to do.
(26:45):
And it's that connection thatmakes it all work.
What happens is most of us.
I found that the mentors had noidea how to connect with
mentees.
Yeah, the one of the cofounders of the mentor project
said to me and he's one of thefathers of the firewall.
Co-founders of the mentorproject said to me and he's one
of the fathers of the firewall,that's how you and I are
(27:08):
speaking.
He said you know, I'm gettingready to retire.
I'm going to live on a farm.
I have no access to kids.
I can't go to a park and say,hey, kid, you want to learn
quantum mechanics?
You know, like that's nevergoing to work.
So all of these really amazing,high level, world changing
individuals had no access tokids, and by kids.
I say that loosely.
I'm in my mid 50s, so prettymuch there's a whole.
(27:29):
You know, anyone who's astudent is a kid in my mind.
But what we realized is thatthey, if I said wow, people
would pay money to meet withthese people.
They are like world changers,astronauts to artists.
If they can't find people tomentor, imagine the struggle of
(27:51):
mentees.
So we just needed to put themtogether.
So mentees need to be lifted.
They need that knowledge.
Download value download Everygrandma out there that has
passed on the recipes and theholiday traditions and the
religion and the culture of thefamily.
That is rich and needs to bepassed on right, and the same in
(28:15):
terms of what the mentors aredoing with their skills and
knowledge as well.
So we need it all to happen.
Cassandra (28:24):
Okay.
So for my listeners, how youknow, let's say there's several
of them that they are mentoringand probably don't even know it
until you know.
They're listening to thisconversation and realizing it,
but they want to do it on abigger scale, a larger scale.
Just listening to this podcast,they're like you know what?
I have a lot to give.
(28:45):
Much is given, much is required, and I like to get into a
program like that so that Icould give.
I always wanted to give, Ialways wanted to help.
What programs?
How would you guide them orsuggest to them how they could
get into the project you'redoing?
Or just reaching otherindividuals where they feel that
(29:06):
they can support and help them?
Deborah (29:08):
Well, I'll say there are several ways.
First of all, reach out to thementor project dot org, and you
know we're free for all students.
Ok, reach out to us.
There may be ways to volunteer.
We're always looking for waysto connect with individuals.
But the other thing is and it'seasy and people are probably
(29:30):
doing it and they don't know itand that is lateral mentoring.
A lot of people that you knowneed help and when you start to
pick up on, hey, there'ssomebody who.
I think I have good informationfor this person.
I'd like to help them out that'scalled lateral mentoring Then
you can help them out.
(29:52):
Likewise, if you have aquestion, accept the help from
someone else.
So do this in your community.
If you have a faith-based place, a house of worship, that's a
great place.
There are tons of otherorganizations.
Get involved in localorganizations and family.
(30:15):
It is likely that you have somerelatives.
You might have nieces ornephews, grandchildren.
You might have friends who havechildren.
You might have friends yourselfthat you are probably doing
this.
You're, you're likely, mentoringa lot of people.
You just don't acknowledge itand you don't get the rewards of
(30:37):
it.
You don't get to feel good.
You don't get all of thebenefits which, when you mentor,
you get the benefit of betterphysical life and a better
emotional life in the long run.
So if you're able toacknowledge it, you're going to
really, really be much happier.
So you do not have to have aformal organization.
(30:58):
You can do that.
One other thing is that you arementoring in a by doing your
podcast.
So as long as you're gettingyour voice and your word out
there, you are mentoring.
I call that modern mentoring.
Cassandra (31:12):
Now that we have technology, they didn't have
that back, you know, when theywere developing the term mentor
they were developing the termmentor, right, right, and you
know what and I like the partwhen you talked about the
meaning in life comes fromfeeling connected and the
mentoring you know you'refeeling connected and also you
(31:34):
talked about you can findmeaning in life outside of the
work that you do.
You know, like a lot of usidentify ourselves with the work
that we do.
Yeah, you know, and and I'm notand I'm, I'm a witness for that
I say, well, tell me about,well, I'm such and such and such
(31:56):
, I'm like that's, that's notwho you are, you know.
But but tell me your workidentity comes from your passion
, fulfillment and, you said,your productivity, you know.
So if someone asked you Deborahyour identity, you know, what
would you?
How would you describe youridentity?
(32:17):
How would you identify yourself?
Deborah (32:20):
So I would identify myself as a mom, as a wife, as a
as an educator, as a person whohas a lot of close connected
friends, as a person who caresfor others.
Okay, I think the last thingthat I tend to identify myself
(32:41):
with is is my job.
I try to identify with thecomponents of my job that I like
about myself, that compelled meto go to that job, which tends
to be that I care for others andI I want to, you know, be
connected with others.
So you know, yeah, I thoughtthat life had to be making an
(33:05):
identity card which was like abusiness card and I lived my
first half of my life like thatand it's very hard then, when
you leave and you go someplaceand you're trying to talk to
somebody, to feel value withinyourself If you're only
identifying with your job,somebody to feel value within
yourself If you're onlyidentifying with your job.
It feels much better to be ableto identify with the parts of
you that you feel good about.
Cassandra (33:33):
Right and I like that answer.
I thought that was greatbecause a lot of us do identify
ourselves by the work that we do, opposed to being, you know, a
mom or single mom or in asorority or just doing different
things, because that providesmore meaning.
And I recognize too, when Ifirst started working, trying to
get out into the workforce,that was meaning for me because
(33:56):
I was trying to learn and youknow, new into this and into the
workforce and all of that.
But as you progress and, as youindicated, as you get older
emotionally and what you'velearned goes, goes up as well.
As you talked about the age,you know the aging factor, how
(34:16):
we put it's like a negativeconnotation, you know, like, oh,
she's old, you know.
And I can also remember being alot younger and thinking my mom
was old, like, oh, she doesn'tknow she's, she's old, you know.
But yet you know the work thatyou do.
The research that you've doneabout ageism is a good thing.
Deborah (34:42):
I think that I got tired of going to cocktail
parties and everybody wanted torun away from me because, you
know, nobody wants to be aroundan aging specialist.
Yes, I think that, if we can.
You know, the one biggestprejudice that we all have is
against our future selves, andthat we are prejudiced against
(35:06):
old age, and that's the onething we all strive to have in
our lives.
It's the weirdest thing that weput ourselves down before we
get to where we want to be, inthe place that we want to be, in
the place that we want to be,and so it's really to me.
That's what I want to do is tohave a paradigm shift where we
start to look at middle age andlater as the time in our lives
(35:31):
when we are trees that areforming apples that are ready to
be dropped as wisdom to therest of the world.
Cassandra (35:39):
Exactly Striving right, Thriving, thriving not
just striving but thriving, andI like that as well because of
the listeners at the age thatthey are at, I don't know, but
to see it as number one,blessing that you're at the age
that you are.
Number two just think of allthat you have, the knowledge
(36:03):
that you've gained, and alsothink of the connections and
things that you could do to be ablessing for others.
And even, like you talked aboutthe mentoring program, I didn't
think my really mentoring.
I didn't think about it as thatway.
So therefore, you've changed myperspective in that area as
well.
How else, how can my listenersget in touch with you?
(36:27):
Yeah, Contact you.
Deborah (36:31):
I'm on LinkedIn.
You can reach me at DeborahHeiser dot com.
At mentor project dot org.
At mentorprojectorg.
I'm in psychology today.
Cassandra (36:49):
And you can reach me on my sub stack, which is the
right side of 40.
Okay, great.
So, in other words, transformtransformative journey of aging
and mentoring and, as I say, ifyou live for live tomorrow
you're still aging.
You know and also give back.
When much is given, much isrequired.
And, debra, I want to thank youfor your time today and I want
(37:12):
to also share with my listenershow their perspective on
mentoring for some of our havechanged a bit.
You know it, especially theaging factor.
You know, never think you'retoo old to do this, or I can't
do that.
Cherish and flourish with yourage because you're here for a
(37:32):
reason and figure it out whatthat reason is and just go for
it and get the support, get amentor or somebody that's doing
something that you would like todo, so that they can impart
some wisdom in you, just asDeborah did in us today.
So, deborah, thank you so muchfor your time and for my
(37:52):
listeners, I ask that you sharethis podcast with individuals,
especially for those who arementoring and you know mentors
if you're working, they probably.
Some organizations havementoring programs for
individuals, and I did with thecompany that I worked for and
how helpful.
That was as well.
So thanks again and for thoselisteners, please like the
(38:16):
podcast so that you can makesure that you hear more and you
heard how you can get in touchwith Deborah, and I want to
thank you again and God blessand bye for now.
Good day out there to all of my listeners and I'd
like to welcome you to Is yourWay In your Way podcast and yes,
that's the name of my book, isyour Way In your Way, and, as
many of my listeners are aware,it's a self-discovery guide for
women on how to restore yourself, learn from your experiences
and be your true self again.
(00:20):
And it's also those women whoare stuck.
You know there's something thatyou've been wanting to do, or
you know your soul is pullingyou to do something.
Is it to write a book?
Is it to get out of a toxicrelationship?
Is it to minimize thosenegative thoughts that's
(00:40):
preventing you from moving aheador doing what it is that your
dreams are?
So that's why, on here, we justkind of talk about topics
related to well, I would say,enabling you to get out of your
way, so that you can and so thatyou will start living your best
(01:01):
life on your terms, and we havetopics related to personal
improvement, businessimprovement and also these
topics are going to enable youto do some self-reflection.
And so today we're going to dosomething a little different
today and I am super excitedabout our guest and our topic is
(01:21):
going to be a transformativejourney of aging and mentoring,
and this is all about humandevelopment.
And who better to talk aboutthat is my guest, Deborah.
And Deborah, please pronounceyour last name for my listeners.
Deborah (01:39):
Sure.
My last name is Heiser.
Cassandra (01:41):
Heiser, okay, deborah Heiser.
I wanted to make sure andbefore guys, of course, before
my show starts, I always wantthem to pronounce their name so
that I won't mispronounce thename.
But, deborah, I'd like towelcome you to Is your Way, in
your Way, and how excited I amto talk about ageism and
mentoring.
So thanks for coming on.
Deborah (02:03):
Thank you for having me .
I'm really excited to be hereon your show.
Cassandra (02:06):
Thanks for having me, yeah sure Now, listeners, what
I want to do now is to give youa little bit of Deborah's
background, just so you'll havea point of reference as we move
forward in our conversation Now.
Deborah Heiser, phd.
She is an applied developmentalpsychologist, a TEDx talker.
(02:26):
She's an aging specialistspeaker, author and the
visionary founder of the MentorProject, with a profound focus
on aging and human development.
Her groundbreaking research hasearned her international
recognition, including awardsfor her work in depression
(02:47):
identification and dementia.
Her expertise has been featuredin outlets like the New York
Times and Thrive Global, and shecontinues to inspire through
her teaching and consulting.
She's passionate aboutunlocking human potential.
That's why I said we are reallyconnected here, because I am
too.
Her innovative insights bridgegenerations and redefine the
(03:10):
concept of mentorship, makingher a powerful voice for change.
So listen, guys, let's getready and be moved by her wisdom
.
And practical strategies forcreating meaningful impact All
righty now.
And practical strategies forcreating meaningful impact All
righty now.
So I actually changed the topica little bit.
(03:31):
Initially, we were going totalk about how we were all built
to mentor and we are all builtto mentor, and Deborah is going
to talk about that.
But I'd like to know before shestarted the work, like on
before she worked on what I'mcalling unlocking the human
potential.
Deborah, what was your lifelike before you started doing
(03:54):
the work that you're currentlydoing?
Deborah (03:57):
Well, I was a researcher in the field of aging
and I looked at everything wedon't want to have or get.
So I studied depression andfrailty and dementia and and I
studied palliative care, sort ofend of life issues, and so it
(04:18):
was very different because I waslooking at everything through a
sort of a physical lens and I'mnow looking at life through our
emotional lens, which issomething most of us never talk
about.
And the first part of what Iwas studying is stuff that's
really scary to most of us andit's something that we think we
(04:38):
have to look forward to and it'snot Now, what propelled you to
want to do this type of work?
So I was.
I didn't even know what apsychologist was, and when I was
a teenager, my grandmother wasin an assisted living facility
and I went down to visit her andshe wasn't herself.
(05:01):
And so the person who was theresaid, don't worry, we'll fix
her.
And I was like, what do youmean?
And she said, well, I'm apsychologist and you know she's
depressed.
And this is a woman who was.
You know, I could pack a bag ofjust shoes and wear all of her
clothes when I was there.
(05:22):
She was fun and really justeverything that a person would
want to be around in terms ofenthusiasm, and so I was like
you can fix her?
And she said, yes.
So the next time I came down,just a couple months later, she
was better, she wasn't depressed, I want to fix grandma's.
(05:42):
So I changed everything I wasdoing.
I'm back to school and that Iwant to become a psychologist
and I want to focus on aging,and that's what really got me
interested in it.
But I thought all we had tolook forward to was fixing
depression and dementia andfrailty, and all of the things
(06:03):
that I was thinking were what myfuture was going to be.
So that's how I started, andthen I later to look at what we
have to look forward to.
Which is really what we have tolook forward to.
Most of us don't have to lookforward to depression and
dementia.
Most of us to being happier aswe get older.
Cassandra (06:24):
This is good.
This is great.
The reason I asked you and Iwant my listeners to hone in on.
You know, a lot of you arefocusing on what your passion is
and what is it that you shouldbe doing, and we kind of get
fixated on that.
And I say that because I was.
I was really focused on what itwas.
What was it that I should bedoing?
(06:47):
And as I look back on it, Irealized everything I was doing
at that time was what I shouldhave been doing.
And so Deborah had gone to seeher grandmother and just that
experience there triggered herto say you know what I want to
get into this aging?
So I'm saying that to you guys,because don't think things that
(07:08):
you are thinking about doing iscrazy.
We're very intuitive as womenand because of that, we know
exactly, perhaps, what directionwe should go in.
So don't fight it, Just go forit.
Get out of that comfort zone, Iwould say.
And then, for listeners on thephone that are listening to me,
(07:29):
it took me forever to write mybook.
And then I would say to myself,why am I doing this?
Like, oh, who wants to hear mystory?
Or well, you know, I don't wantto do this because I'm getting
older, and because I'm gettingolder, people may not receive me
as well.
So, in other words, Deborah tome is is going to talk a little
(07:49):
bit more about why getting olderfor some people is negative, or
what do you think?
Because of your age, you can'tdo this and you can't do that.
So, Deborah, with that said, umis when one of the things you
said that the most preciousnatural resources us are people,
Absolutely.
Yeah, Now tell us about that.
Deborah (08:12):
So I'm going to start by saying why we think we should
all have a negative lifespan.
Ok, this is how I thought.
Ok, because we think of ourlife as a physical trajectory
which starts, you know, at birth, and then we learn how to walk
and talk and do everything, andthen all of a sudden, at a very
early age, we peak and then wehave a slow, steady decline.
Cassandra (08:34):
That's scary.
Deborah (08:35):
That frightens all of us.
That's why we all sort of shyaway from wanting to talk about
aging, because we can see thatand the part that we can't see
that is happening at the exactsame time is our emotional
development, and that starts atthe same time at birth and that
goes up, up, up and it neverdeclines, ever.
(08:56):
Even though, like I need readingglasses I was just wearing them
before I can't run it and Ican't run as fast I'm happier
than when I was 20.
I'm much happier and that's howwe should expect it.
So when I was talking about,when I gave my TEDx talk, I
talked about how we're wastingour most precious natural
resources and that's us.
(09:17):
It's not oil, coal and gas andstuff like that yes, our own
selves.
Every time we do not engagewith others and get their
intellect out, their values,their culture, we're burning
down a library for every singleperson that we're not connecting
with and getting thatinformation from.
(09:39):
And so that's why I think thatuntil we start to see ourselves
on this emotional journey whichconnects all of us, gets us to
our better selves, we are reallyburning down libraries every
single day.
Cassandra (09:57):
That's interesting and I like the fact that you're
right as we get older, but howour emotional journey, or
whatever based on what couldhave happened in as you indicate
, is not a bad thing, as youindicated, because you're
happier and you're happierperhaps, or and some of my
(10:35):
audience listeners are aging andI'm not saying they're not
happy, but they're more focusedon I got to get married because
I'm I'm getting old, I have tohave a child, I should be, I
should be far beyond where I amnow, or you know, I should have
been able to purchase a homeJust a lot of things that
they're putting on on why theyshould do this because of their
(10:59):
age, rather than cultivating andembracing this right, you're
right, yeah we all live by thosecheck boxes.
Deborah (11:09):
right, I have to do, um , I have to maybe get a degree,
or I have to get a job.
I have to get married, I haveto have kids, I have to get a
you know, a different job I haveto, whatever it goes.
It goes on and on and on.
We can make that list as longas we'd like, and that's
attached to our physical, likewhat we're expecting to do as we
get older, like that's part ofthat journey.
(11:30):
Now, what most of us do, though, is we, we have anxiety about
all that.
That's why, when we're youngerand we're going through all that
and we're figuring out who weare, it's hard to be really
happy, because we've got allthis pressure Like I better do
this, that and the other thing.
Once you hit midlife, you'relike I did it, I'm good, and you
know what I?
don't care what anybody thinksabout me.
Haha, you know it's nice, wehave that.
(11:52):
That's what sort of flips forus after 40 is that once those
boxes are gone, it's like afreedom that lifts from us.
So if you're in the boxchecking phase of life, know
that that goes away.
Those boxes don't go on forever.
If you don't, if you don'tcontinue to check them off you
(12:13):
can relax at some point andfocus on yourself, which?
is really what is so wonderfulabout the second half of life?
As you go inward instead ofoutward, in terms of how you're
thinking about yourself, you'renot as worried about the Joneses
and what they're thinking aboutyou.
You're not as worried aboutwell, I better have a nice
(12:34):
enough house because somebodyelse might think something.
It's really that you're muchmore focused on what makes you
happy.
Cassandra (12:43):
Right, and for those who are not like in their 40s,
what are some things you thinkthey could do to help them?
What I call going through aself-discovery mode.
You know, I'm thinking backwhen I was 40 and I'm like, well
, I was kind of there, but notthere yet.
I'm thinking about, well, Iwant to retire at 60 something,
because that's what they say,you know we should retire, and
(13:07):
for me, I'm like I'll neverretire until I can't do anything
else.
Right, yeah, so why?
Why do you believe any researchor anything that's been?
Uh, that you've come acrosswhere individuals are still not
there, when they're in theirforties, going to 50, they still
(13:28):
focusing on I should have donethis, I should have done that,
or I should have that house, Ishould be married, what, what?
Any research shows anythingabout that?
Deborah (13:37):
well, here's how our our development works and the
stages.
You might have a child that yousee who walks at a very early
age, and you may have anotherchild that walks at a very late
age.
it does not affect them laterthey're going to be the same
later on it doesn't matter thesame with our development and
(13:58):
how we think about ourselves andhow we form our identity and
how we feel about all of thatsort of emotional stuff.
It has the same range.
So you could be 40 or you couldbe 50, you could be 60.
It doesn't matter.
So give yourself some grace,because it's just like a baby
(14:18):
walking or learning to talk.
It doesn't mean a baby's agenius if it talks at six months
versus 16 months.
It's all the same in the end,and the same for our emotional
trajectory.
The real point is that we wantto make sure that if you're
struggling, right, if you'resaying, oh my gosh, I'm
struggling, is it a strugglethat is like, oh, should I check
(14:40):
another box, or is it?
I'm really concerned aboutsomething?
Because, those are two differentthings.
If I'm saying, gee, you know, Ireally wanted a bigger, better
house, but I have one, but I'dreally like a better one, you
know, where are you with this?
Is this a real true struggle?
Where, you know, are you nowsaying I'm really focused on the
(15:01):
Joneses and what they'rethinking about me?
So you know, a lot of that hasto do with where we're going to
get.
Most, all of us do get to theright place and it's within a,
you know, 15 year time bracket.
Cassandra (15:17):
Okay, Okay, good, Let me talk about um, um, I want to
talk about mentoring.
You know, because I know you doa lot of work on mentoring and
before we got started, you know,I made a comment that once I
(15:37):
read and I've mentored a lot inmy life but I never thought of
my parents as mentors, they weremy parents.
But when I think about andbased on the work that you do,
I'd like for you to, I'm curiousto the difference between being
(15:58):
coached versus mentor.
Deborah (16:03):
If you're getting paid, you're not a mentor.
Now, that does not diminish anyother thing.
You could be an advisor.
This is what happens inuniversities and other places.
You could be a coach but you'renot a mentor.
So I like to tell people look,it doesn't diminish anything by
calling it something else, butit's making the wrong
(16:26):
distinction if you have certainthings that you're calling a
mentor that aren't, and then itmakes people say, well, it
failed, it didn't work.
So what mentoring really needsand this might help to
distinguish it is it needs to begenerative.
We're built to mentor by thetime we hit midlife and we
figured out who we are and who.
We've gotten rid of all thosesuperficial friends that we
don't need anymore.
(16:47):
And we figured out who we areand who.
We've gotten rid of all thosesuperficial friends that we
don't need anymore and we havejust a tight knit group of
friends.
We already know we have anexpertise in something it could
be culture, it could be values,it could be whatever it is, it
doesn't have to be work relatedThen we have a desire to give
that back without expectinganything in return from someone.
(17:09):
Okay, and so that'sgenerativity, that's
volunteering, mentoring andphilanthropy.
Okay, so that's the first thingwe need.
The second thing is it has tobe an intrinsically motivated
relationship.
That means that there's no payor reward or certificate or
award or anything like that.
(17:30):
You could be doing it, no onecould ever know you're doing it,
but you still want to do it.
So the way that I think of thatis, if I were to say, hey,
cassandra, would you like tovolunteer at a soup kitchen to
give out free food and beveragesto hungry, thirsty people,
you'd probably say yes.
And if I said now, cassandra,would you go volunteer your time
(17:55):
at Starbucks to go give outfood and beverages?
Yeah, okay.
So most people will say nobecause they would want to get
paid to go to Starbucksalongside everybody else who's
getting paid.
It's that feeling that when yougive your time, whether you're
volunteering or something, youdon't need money reward for it,
(18:15):
whereas if you're going to a job, you're expecting something
from it.
If you don't get a paycheck,you're mad.
So that's another thing that'sneeded.
We also need a meaningfulconnection.
I have to like you and you haveto like me.
There has to be thatrelationship.
It's like a friend.
You know you could meetsomebody and you really click
and you're good friends withthem.
(18:35):
And you might meet somebodyelse who's just as awesome, but
you don't click and that's okay,that's not a failure.
We don't have to be friendswith everybody the same with
mentorship.
We also need to have have trust.
I have to be able to trust thatyou're not going to judge me
for not knowing something andthen not give me a raise if I'm
(18:56):
at work right, or that you knowI'm not gonna.
You have to trust that I'm notgonna come and steal your stuff
right and run off with it.
Yeah, um, and finally, we haveto have a goal.
So if you're just chatting,you're not mentoring.
So if you're coaching, yourgoal is very specific.
You're getting to do that andyou may not like the person,
(19:20):
even it may not be thatmeaningful a connection.
Once you're done, you might bedone, whereas mentoring it
usually is a longer lastingimpact, or that little bit that
you got from that person liveson in you for a long time.
But what they were giving youwas so valuable and you took it
in and you made it a part ofyourself.
Cassandra (19:39):
Okay, okay.
So how does mentoring help,like in the workplace and, and
you talked about, in personaldevelopment?
Deborah (19:48):
how does that help so in the workplace, um, if we're
really engaging in mentorshipappropriately, it can really
help us to rise, and it can alsohelp us to keep the ball, keep
it the wheel, from beingreinvented every time.
So the most impactful way,though, that it works is lateral
(20:12):
mentoring.
Most of us think we have to gofind somebody who's going to
pull us up, right, but that'susually the part that scares
most people.
They say I'm not going to tellsomebody above me, I don't know
how to do something.
They're never going to give me araise above me, I don't know
how to do something.
They're never going to give mea raise, so it stops people from
either being fully honest witha mentor or really opening up to
(20:33):
somebody.
There's that trust factorthat's worrisome.
So a lateral mentor is that yougo to somebody completely in a
different department or somebodywho's completely lateral.
It could be even somebodyoutside of work and you get
their help and their expertise.
They are not above you.
They're the same level, justwith a different area of
(20:54):
expertise, and we see this a lotof times with entrepreneurship.
Cassandra (20:59):
Yes.
Deborah (21:00):
Where you'll see a software engineer will say I
need the help of a hardwareengineer and that's how a lot of
the new innovations happen.
But that can happen in anyindustry at all.
If you're writing a book, likeyou wrote a book, you may need
an editor.
Does that mean that person isabove you?
No, they're lateral to you.
That person is going to helpyou with your book.
(21:21):
Your book is better because ofit.
That's what I mean by howyou'll work.
Cassandra (21:26):
Okay, what motivates one to mentor, though?
Deborah (21:33):
So we get motivated to mentor, and this is the personal
development part.
I have spoken with so manypeople who mentor and if you get
to a certain point, you feelirrelevant, you feel like you're
not productive.
You feel like you're notproductive, you feel like you
aren't like why was I born?
There's so much stuff we cangather and stand on top like
(21:57):
Duffy Duck on top of the moundof riches, and it's not
fulfilling to us.
It's fun to gather it andcollect it, but at a certain
point we say is this it?
Gather it and collect it, butat a certain point we say is
this it?
So, when we give back a pieceof ourselves to somebody else,
it makes us feel like weactually made a difference in
the world.
Right, and I'll?
(22:18):
I'll give you an example theNobel prize winner in 2012 or
2013,.
Bob Lefkowitz.
He wondered why it was that hegot the Nobel Prize so he
decided to look at who mentoredhim and who he mentored, because
he just couldn't quite figureit out right.
(22:40):
It turned out that he, he madewhat was called.
He called a legacy tree, and soit's just like an ancestry.
com tree.
You know where you look at allyour ancestors, but mentors for
him and he realized mentorshipwas the key.
So he wanted to give back andhe couldn't help but give back
and so he drew it all out,including his mentees that he
(23:03):
knew of.
Cassandra (23:04):
Yeah.
Deborah (23:04):
And published it in a journal.
He went to a conference notlong after that and somebody
came up to him and he said hey,bob, I'm six degrees Lefkowitz.
And he said what do you mean?
And he said, well, five peoplework in between you and me.
And Bob said, well, tell meabout your work.
And he did, and it waseverything Bob had started and
(23:26):
he got to see how far out hiswork went into what this person
was doing, and even his wordsand the way that he talked about
it were exactly how Bob hadstarted it and he said that was
one of the most meaningfulthings in his life was to find
out that he mattered six degreesaway from the work that he did.
(23:46):
We don't usually get to do that.
I mean, I really encouragepeople to follow what he did and
make yourself a legacy tree,because we really do matter in
the lives of others and our workand our thoughts and our values
go so far beyond us, and sothat's how we're built to do it.
It's it makes us immortal.
Cassandra (24:06):
Bob is living on in people six degrees away from him
, exactly, exactly, wow, what apowerful story.
I'm curious, though, um, youtalk about meaningful impact,
like like Bob, for example, noteven really knowing that you
(24:27):
know the impact that he's madeas he has, which is his legacy.
And when I think about mylisteners, who are in their way
and there are things that theywant to do, they want to give
back, they want to, I alwaysfelt that having meaning in your
life gives me more reason towant to get up in the morning.
(24:50):
You know, or even why I'm here.
You know there were times whenI'm like, well, why am I here?
I think you said that earlierlike what?
Why am I Am I here to?
To just go to work every day,get paid, pay my bills, and then
you get kind of discouraged.
If that's, that's all that youdo From your experience, how has
(25:15):
your end of even people in yourmentorship research program,
people in your mentorshipresearch program, how do they?
I know the people that arementoring can find meaning
because they're giving.
What about the mentees?
What about that?
The other side of the spectrum?
(25:35):
How?
What's the benefit for them?
That you've seen, observed orhave any stories?
Deborah (25:43):
So, for the mentors, first of all, whenever somebody
is saying, hey, I feel a littlebit like what you know.
Oh, what is next?
Am I?
I'm in the grind, I'm kind ofright.
We all expect that.
That is usually what propels usinto doing what we're built to
do, which is to give back,because we're like, oh my gosh,
what now?
And so that may have been whatprompted you to write your book
(26:04):
or something else which isleaving a legacy, all of those
things do that.
So with the mentors they get tofeel like they're being relevant
right and they get to feel likethey have purpose.
For the mentees we launchedtheir lives.
In some cases Some studentshave patented.
Some students have startedtheir own businesses.
(26:25):
Some students have learned howto do a research skill at a very
young age.
We're launching the lives ofyoung people, while we're at the
same time making ourselvesrelevant and leaving our
legacies.
So we're really all doing whatwe're built to do.
(26:45):
And it's that connection thatmakes it all work.
What happens is most of us.
I found that the mentors had noidea how to connect with
mentees.
Yeah, the one of the cofounders of the mentor project
said to me and he's one of thefathers of the firewall.
Co-founders of the mentorproject said to me and he's one
of the fathers of the firewall,that's how you and I are
(27:08):
speaking.
He said you know, I'm gettingready to retire.
I'm going to live on a farm.
I have no access to kids.
I can't go to a park and say,hey, kid, you want to learn
quantum mechanics?
You know, like that's nevergoing to work.
So all of these really amazing,high level, world changing
individuals had no access tokids, and by kids.
I say that loosely.
I'm in my mid 50s, so prettymuch there's a whole.
(27:29):
You know, anyone who's astudent is a kid in my mind.
But what we realized is thatthey, if I said wow, people
would pay money to meet withthese people.
They are like world changers,astronauts to artists.
If they can't find people tomentor, imagine the struggle of
(27:51):
mentees.
So we just needed to put themtogether.
So mentees need to be lifted.
They need that knowledge.
Download value download Everygrandma out there that has
passed on the recipes and theholiday traditions and the
religion and the culture of thefamily.
That is rich and needs to bepassed on right, and the same in
(28:15):
terms of what the mentors aredoing with their skills and
knowledge as well.
So we need it all to happen.
Cassandra (28:24):
Okay.
So for my listeners, how youknow, let's say there's several
of them that they are mentoringand probably don't even know it
until you know.
They're listening to thisconversation and realizing it,
but they want to do it on abigger scale, a larger scale.
Just listening to this podcast,they're like you know what?
I have a lot to give.
(28:45):
Much is given, much is required, and I like to get into a
program like that so that Icould give.
I always wanted to give, Ialways wanted to help.
What programs?
How would you guide them orsuggest to them how they could
get into the project you'redoing?
Or just reaching otherindividuals where they feel that
(29:06):
they can support and help them?
Deborah (29:08):
Well, I'll say there are several ways.
First of all, reach out to thementor project dot org, and you
know we're free for all students.
Ok, reach out to us.
There may be ways to volunteer.
We're always looking for waysto connect with individuals.
But the other thing is and it'seasy and people are probably
(29:30):
doing it and they don't know itand that is lateral mentoring.
A lot of people that you knowneed help and when you start to
pick up on, hey, there'ssomebody who.
I think I have good informationfor this person.
I'd like to help them out that'scalled lateral mentoring Then
you can help them out.
(29:52):
Likewise, if you have aquestion, accept the help from
someone else.
So do this in your community.
If you have a faith-based place, a house of worship, that's a
great place.
There are tons of otherorganizations.
Get involved in localorganizations and family.
(30:15):
It is likely that you have somerelatives.
You might have nieces ornephews, grandchildren.
You might have friends who havechildren.
You might have friends yourselfthat you are probably doing
this.
You're, you're likely, mentoringa lot of people.
You just don't acknowledge itand you don't get the rewards of
(30:37):
it.
You don't get to feel good.
You don't get all of thebenefits which, when you mentor,
you get the benefit of betterphysical life and a better
emotional life in the long run.
So if you're able toacknowledge it, you're going to
really, really be much happier.
So you do not have to have aformal organization.
(30:58):
You can do that.
One other thing is that you arementoring in a by doing your
podcast.
So as long as you're gettingyour voice and your word out
there, you are mentoring.
I call that modern mentoring.
Cassandra (31:12):
Now that we have technology, they didn't have
that back, you know, when theywere developing the term mentor
they were developing the termmentor, right, right, and you
know what and I like the partwhen you talked about the
meaning in life comes fromfeeling connected and the
mentoring you know you'refeeling connected and also you
(31:34):
talked about you can findmeaning in life outside of the
work that you do.
You know, like a lot of usidentify ourselves with the work
that we do.
Yeah, you know, and and I'm notand I'm, I'm a witness for that
I say, well, tell me about,well, I'm such and such and such
(31:56):
, I'm like that's, that's notwho you are, you know.
But but tell me your workidentity comes from your passion
, fulfillment and, you said,your productivity, you know.
So if someone asked you Deborahyour identity, you know, what
would you?
How would you describe youridentity?
(32:17):
How would you identify yourself?
Deborah (32:20):
So I would identify myself as a mom, as a wife, as a
as an educator, as a person whohas a lot of close connected
friends, as a person who caresfor others.
Okay, I think the last thingthat I tend to identify myself
(32:41):
with is is my job.
I try to identify with thecomponents of my job that I like
about myself, that compelled meto go to that job, which tends
to be that I care for others andI I want to, you know, be
connected with others.
So you know, yeah, I thoughtthat life had to be making an
(33:05):
identity card which was like abusiness card and I lived my
first half of my life like thatand it's very hard then, when
you leave and you go someplaceand you're trying to talk to
somebody, to feel value withinyourself If you're only
identifying with your job,somebody to feel value within
yourself If you're onlyidentifying with your job.
It feels much better to be ableto identify with the parts of
you that you feel good about.
Cassandra (33:33):
Right and I like that answer.
I thought that was greatbecause a lot of us do identify
ourselves by the work that we do, opposed to being, you know, a
mom or single mom or in asorority or just doing different
things, because that providesmore meaning.
And I recognize too, when Ifirst started working, trying to
get out into the workforce,that was meaning for me because
(33:56):
I was trying to learn and youknow, new into this and into the
workforce and all of that.
But as you progress and, as youindicated, as you get older
emotionally and what you'velearned goes, goes up as well.
As you talked about the age,you know the aging factor, how
(34:16):
we put it's like a negativeconnotation, you know, like, oh,
she's old, you know.
And I can also remember being alot younger and thinking my mom
was old, like, oh, she doesn'tknow she's, she's old, you know.
But yet you know the work thatyou do.
The research that you've doneabout ageism is a good thing.
Deborah (34:42):
I think that I got tired of going to cocktail
parties and everybody wanted torun away from me because, you
know, nobody wants to be aroundan aging specialist.
Yes, I think that, if we can.
You know, the one biggestprejudice that we all have is
against our future selves, andthat we are prejudiced against
(35:06):
old age, and that's the onething we all strive to have in
our lives.
It's the weirdest thing that weput ourselves down before we
get to where we want to be, inthe place that we want to be, in
the place that we want to be,and so it's really to me.
That's what I want to do is tohave a paradigm shift where we
start to look at middle age andlater as the time in our lives
(35:31):
when we are trees that areforming apples that are ready to
be dropped as wisdom to therest of the world.
Cassandra (35:39):
Exactly Striving right, Thriving, thriving not
just striving but thriving, andI like that as well because of
the listeners at the age thatthey are at, I don't know, but
to see it as number one,blessing that you're at the age
that you are.
Number two just think of allthat you have, the knowledge
(36:03):
that you've gained, and alsothink of the connections and
things that you could do to be ablessing for others.
And even, like you talked aboutthe mentoring program, I didn't
think my really mentoring.
I didn't think about it as thatway.
So therefore, you've changed myperspective in that area as
well.
How else, how can my listenersget in touch with you?
(36:27):
Yeah, Contact you.
Deborah (36:31):
I'm on LinkedIn.
You can reach me at DeborahHeiser dot com.
At mentor project dot org.
At mentorprojectorg.
I'm in psychology today.
Cassandra (36:49):
And you can reach me on my sub stack, which is the
right side of 40.
Okay, great.
So, in other words, transformtransformative journey of aging
and mentoring and, as I say, ifyou live for live tomorrow
you're still aging.
You know and also give back.
When much is given, much isrequired.
And, debra, I want to thank youfor your time today and I want
(37:12):
to also share with my listenershow their perspective on
mentoring for some of our havechanged a bit.
You know it, especially theaging factor.
You know, never think you'retoo old to do this, or I can't
do that.
Cherish and flourish with yourage because you're here for a
(37:32):
reason and figure it out whatthat reason is and just go for
it and get the support, get amentor or somebody that's doing
something that you would like todo, so that they can impart
some wisdom in you, just asDeborah did in us today.
So, deborah, thank you so muchfor your time and for my
(37:52):
listeners, I ask that you sharethis podcast with individuals,
especially for those who arementoring and you know mentors
if you're working, they probably.
Some organizations havementoring programs for
individuals, and I did with thecompany that I worked for and
how helpful.
That was as well.
So thanks again and for thoselisteners, please like the
(38:16):
podcast so that you can makesure that you hear more and you
heard how you can get in touchwith Deborah, and I want to
thank you again and God blessand bye for now.
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