September 25, 2025 • 47 mins
Our guests this week are Professors David Raubenheimer and Stephen J. Simpson, authors of the book Eat Like the Animals. We talk about the modern food system and how to use your natural appetite to eat the healthiest way possible.
Follow up with the authors on the Charles Perkins Centre website.
In the intro, I talked about the book The Motivation Myth.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:08):
Gib. Hello and welcome to another episode of
intelligence for your life. Thepodcast, I'm Gib Gerard, and our
guests this week are none otherthan professors, David
robinheimer and Stephen JSimpson. They are authors of the
new book? Well, it's not reallynew. It's been around for a
while, but it's being translatedinto 10 different languages.
Now, eat like the animals. Isthe name of the book, and it is
(00:28):
exactly what it sounds like. Itis about how we can use our own
natural appetites, understandingour own natural appetites, in
order to eat food and navigatethe modern food system in a way
that is beneficial to ourbodies. We're going to talk
about this in detail in a secondhere, but look, the core problem
is this, we have a ton ofcalories and not a lot of
nutritious food, and that iscreating a huge problem when it
(00:52):
comes to the health of oursociety. So it's a unique time
in human history. We've neverhad people that get more
calories than they do nutrients.
But that's where we are rightnow, and he they're going to
teach us how, through theirresearch, we can use our again,
our own natural appetites inorder to eat the right kind of
foods, so that we're getting thevitamins, minerals and nutrients
that our body actually needs tofunction without having an
excess of calories. This is,this is the kind of thing that,
(01:15):
like you talk about, how hard,how much willpower it takes to
lose weight. This is the kind ofunderstanding that actually
hacks your own willpower. Itdoesn't become willpower. You
can just follow your appetitesif you are eating, if you start
by eating the right foods. Sothere's some amazing nuggets in
here. If you are somebody thatthat struggles with late night
snacking, if you're somebodythat that always has those, you
(01:36):
know, those, those comfort foodsthat you reach for when you're
not feeling great aboutyourself. This is the way to
start to unload those things sothat you in those habits, so
that you can actually live yourbest, best life and have your
have the best health from thefood that you're eating in your
body. I have two quick pieces ofintelligence to give you before
we get to the interview. If youwould like people to agree with
(01:58):
you, I have some tricks to helpmake that happen? They come from
management expert Jeff Hayden,author of The motivation myth,
and these tactics are proven tomake you significantly more
persuasive. First, focus on thepositive. For example, instead
of telling people what they'redoing wrong, tell them you can
help them get things right.
(02:18):
Hayden says that simple shift inphrasing and mindset is
guaranteed to make you moreinfluential, because when people
see what the positive outcomecould be if they make a change,
they are far more likely toagree with you. Also pay
attention to how people areresponding to your ideas and
adjust your rate of speechaccordingly, meaning talk faster
if they seem ready to give you arebuttal. Hayden says there's a
(02:41):
reason salesmen are notoriousfast talkers, because a faster
rate of speech gives people lesstime to think of reasons to
disagree. Fast talking holdspeople's attention if you want
to go further. Again, that bookis the motivation myth by
management expert Jeff Hayden.
All right, that's, I mean,there's some good advice packed
in there. I'll put a link to themotivation myth in the show
notes, so you guys can check outthat book if you're interested.
(03:01):
You're interested. Here we go.
One last piece of intelligence.
We talk a lot about the healthbenefits of being in nature. I
mean, we talked, we're going totalk about that in a second here
about, you know, natural foodeating, but, but it's it's
important. Studies have shown itcan actually lower stress and
blood pressure and reduce therisks of asthma, diabetes and
heart disease, while alsoboosting mental health and
longevity. But how much timeoutdoors do we need in order to
(03:23):
reap these results? Well,according to the scientific
reports, the answer is right,about two hours each week. The
study looked at data from nearly20,000 people who recorded their
activities within the span of aweek, and it found that people
who spent two hours a weekoutdoors reported being in
better health and having agreater sense of well being, and
that's why an increasing numberof physicians are writing nature
(03:44):
prescriptions to motivate peopleto go outdoors. And the Journal
found you don't need your naturefix every day. They found that
getting your two hours all atonce, it works just as well. So
there you go. You know, focus onthe positive. Adjust your rate
of speech. That's in order tomotivate people around you, and,
of course, get into nature.
(04:05):
Those are two pieces ofintelligence you can take with
you in order to live your bestlife this week. But folks here,
most importantly is my interviewwith the authors of eat like the
animals, professors, Davidrobinheimer and Steven Simpson.
David robinheimer and StevenSimpson, authors of the book,
eat like the animals. Veryexcited to have you guys with
us. Thank you so much for beingwith us today. Thanks guys
(04:27):
again. All right, so we're goingto dive right into this, because
this is actually something thatI'm really passionate about. I
believe, I believe that we havetoo much food that is too easy
for us to get, and it's all beenengineered to make us want it in
a way that we shouldn't everwant it. And because of that, we
have, we have overweight,malnourished people for the
first time in human history,which is like mind blowing to
(04:49):
me, right? We're not gettingenough vitamins, but we're
getting too many calories. Andyou seem to have the solution
with this from from all of yourfrom all of your studies. So you
know, I.
Uh, how do we eat like animals?
How do we get how do we get thatback? How do we get that sort of
natural way of eating back?
Well, Gib, you've stated theproblem perfectly. That's
exactly the situation, and thereason is precisely, as you
(05:13):
said, that we've designed a foodenvironment that quite
literally, is hacking our basicbiology and the story of eat
like the animals is, how doesour basic biology work, and how
should it work, and why does itgo wrong in the modern food
environment? And what we'velearned is essentially that we,
(05:36):
like all animals, have evolvedthese exquisite appetite control
systems that measure andregulate the intake of a series
of key nutrients in our diet,protein, fat, carbohydrate, salt
and calcium, and that thoseappetites should be guiding us
to a healthy, healthy weight andgood lifelong health, but
(06:01):
Because of the fact that we'renow in a world where our food
environment is tapping intothose appetites, subverting
them, hacking them, we've gotterrible problems, right? So
we're we're really trying tounderstand the biology of where
things have gone wrong, andcoming up with simple solutions
to put it right again. And it'snot only the biology. We're also
(06:22):
trying to understand the ecologyof how these these mechanisms
that we share with otherspecies, what sort of
circumstances they involved in,and how those circumstances
differ in our modern world. Andone really key difference is
that we've studied over the past3035, years, I think it's 40 or
more species, and both in thewild and in the laboratory. So
(06:46):
we understand the natural worldwell. One very key, very
important difference is that innature, there are very few foods
that are designed specificallyto be eaten and eaten in large
quantities. If you think aboutthat, maybe fruits are that way
because they provide a dispersalmechanism for the seeds of
(07:07):
plants. Nectar is a little bitlike that, but most foods are
averse to being eaten, sobiology has evolved to deal with
that aversion, to cope with theobstacles to nutrition, and
suddenly we find ourselves inthe environment that's the exact
opposite, and that is, we've gotfoods beckoning out our
appetites to be eaten and eatenin large quantities.
(07:30):
Interesting. I mean, I neverthought of it, framing it like
that, but it is. It's a greatpoint. Like you said, there's,
there's a handful of things thatare meant to be eaten, and the
rest is a fight. Have we lostthis battle? I mean, obviously
you guys wrote the book, so youdon't think we've lost it, but I
I being inundated with all ofthis stuff, day in, day out, and
fad diets and all of these otherthings. How do we begin to
(07:51):
unpack those? You know, youmentioned five core appetites
for, you know, carbohydrates,protein, fat, calcium and what
am I missing? Siding, yeah,yeah.
So we've far from lost thebattle. I think we've just begun
the battle, because it's onlyvery recently that we've come to
(08:11):
understand the mechanisms in theway that we've described in the
book that are driving theproblem. So I think with that
understanding, we reallyempowered to approach the
situation in a very differentway, and that is what the book
is about. Because there's areally, it's a good news story
in the sense that we haven'tbroken our biology. It still
(08:33):
works. It's still there. Andit's really a question of how we
use our biology of appetite,those five appetites you
mentioned, to our best benefit,to our best health, rather than
for the profits of the ultraprocessed food industries. So
it's not a bad story. It's agood story. We've got these
(08:56):
latent abilities, extraordinaryabilities, to regulate our our
own nutrition, without having tohave technology involved,
without having to even countcalories. It can be done for us,
but we just need to listen tothose appetites and to put them
in the right food environments.
Right. Okay, so, so most of usare not.
(09:21):
Most of us are not very welleducated about the food that
we're putting into our bodies.
Most of us are overworked, overstressed. We don't sleep enough,
which also, you know, I'vemesses with our ability to make
good food choices.
So we live in this life that alot of us can't undo. You know,
we've got children and jobs andhobbies, and at the end of the
(09:45):
day, we are going to go the pathof least resistance. No matter
how much we fight. We may die itfor a little while, we may get
in better shape. How do we startto deal with a multi billion
dollar industry that is tellingus to just reach for the quick
fix and.
And instead, listen our bodies,because I would love to go live
on a farm and grow my own foodand eat organic vegetables all
the time, and listen to my body.
I just I don't live that life.
(10:08):
So how do we start to unpackwhat you've learned and what
your research has shown andapplying it to our daily lives?
Well, there's there's a longterm solution and a short term
solution. The long term solutionis that we really need to work
as a society together withindustry. Industry is not an
evil organization institutiontrying to ruin the health of the
population. Industry is doingwhat industry is set up to do,
(10:31):
and that is making profit,right? Doing it very well,
unfortunately, now via routethat is wreaking havoc on public
health globally. So that's alonger term project, the shorter
term project that is each of usis really empowered and is the
capacity to decide what sort offood environment we want to live
in. Do we want to live in anenvironment where a food by a
(10:54):
food environment, I mean a localfood environment. What sort of
foods do we want to surroundourselves with at home, so that
when we when our appetites areactivating us to eat, they we
reach for something that they'reequipped to cope with, which
isn't highly processed foods,but our whole foods.
Fortunately, those are stillavailable in large quantities
(11:15):
within our environment. They areopen to our choice, to our
selection. We can regulate whatcomes into our household. So the
way that we put it is to to shopwith your brains and eat with
your appetites. Interesting.
Okay, so that's actually a greatpoint, right? If you don't have
the cookies and the Pop Tarts inyour house, you're not going to
reach for those engineeredfoods. You're going to reach for
whatever you have, and thatcould be a thing of blueberries
(11:37):
or an apple or whatever that maybe. So the first step is to, I
love that shop with your shop,with your mind, eat with your
appetite. So the first stepagain, shop and put the foods,
the whole foods, into your home,that that will, that are, that
are best suited for you. How dowe how do we begin to deprogram
ourselves? Because I know whenI'm exercising well and I'm
(12:00):
eating well, I have no problemlistening to my body and eating
good foods. The hard part isgetting to the place where I've
deprogrammed myself after alittle while. So how do we start
that deprogramming process sothat we can listen to those two
we can listen to those appetitesthat we really need?
Yeah, now that that's that's agreat question and, and as David
(12:23):
said, it starts with surroundingyourself with appropriate foods.
And it's, it's a really, Ithink, an important lesson to
learn is how your appetites arebeing distorted and and hacked.
And a beautiful example of thatis the protein appetite. Now we
(12:44):
know, and we'll talk about thatmore. I'm sure that the protein
appetite is our most powerfulappetite. It's the one that will
dominate when you come to befaced with choices around what
you should or shouldn't eat inrelation to other nutrients,
protein will dominate. Now, whenyour protein appetite is hungry,
(13:06):
you start to crave particularflavors, and those are the
classic savory flavors, umamiflavors, as the Japanese call
them, your body's telling youyou need to eat protein. Protein
has become associated in ourevolutionary past with that
flavor, that set of flavors, andso you you're seeking those
(13:29):
flavors. Now, the nearest sourceof savory flavor in most food
environments will be a packet ofDoritos or some other savory
snack that has that distinctivelip smacking umami flavor that
is, in fact, simply a proteindecoy, because all it is is a
pile of fat and carbs you'regoing to reach for those,
(13:51):
they'll taste fantastic, andyour your protein appetite will
remain unsatiated, and you'regoing to have to eat yet more
calories to Try and find it. Sothere's an example where a
simple understanding of anappetite system can be it can
sort of lift the veil over overhow the food environment is is
(14:13):
manipulating our appetites, andit gives you something to work
with when it comes to fightingback. And you can see the same
mechanism operating in thenatural world. We write at
length in the book about theorangutans and how they respond
in the wild. So orangutans havethis situation where fruits are
(14:34):
periodically abundant and thenthey're very scarce. And what
happens is, of course, it's inthe trees interests to have the
fruits eaten by orangutans,because that's a mechanism for
dispersing the seeds. So thefruits are effectively, the
trees are enticing theorangutans to eat those fruits,
and the way that they entice theorangutan one of the few foods
(14:55):
in nature that really aredesigned to be eaten in large
quantities.
And the way they do that is verysimilar to the way that
processed foods entice us to eatthem, and that is, they have a
low proportion of protein tofats and carbohydrates. And what
that means is you have to eat alot of the food to satiate your
(15:16):
protein out as Steve was saying,so in a way, the food industry
is keyed into something thatnature has keyed into millions
and millions of years ago, usingsimilar mechanisms to entice
over consumption of foods forthe benefit not of the consumer,
but for the benefit of the foodproducer. Trees in nature, a
(15:36):
highly processed food industryin our society, that bliss point
is the other obvious example ofthat, where if you combine fats
and sugars in roughly equalmeasure, then you end up with
this super palatable substancewhich is going to induce you to
eat a little bit more of it thanyou otherwise would. And again,
(15:56):
we see this in nature onoccasions, and we've even got
there's a massive study comingout from the lab in a couple of
weeks time in in a journalcalled Nature metabolism, where
we've found that high fructosecorn syrup, that one to one
mixture of glucose to fructose,hits not only The sweet spot
(16:20):
when it comes to driving overconsumption far more than even
sucrose, the table sugar, whichis those same two nutrients,
mixed but but bound together ina single molecule. And also it
activates lipogenesis with fatdeposition with greatest with,
(16:43):
with, with with greatest force.
So you actually have thiscombination which is designed to
cause you to eat more and hasbiggest impact on your
physiology, in this case, interms of laying down fat. And
add to that the fact that fiberis also stripped out of highly
processed food, and fiberoperates as a brake on the
(17:05):
appetite system. So if you havea relatively low protein diet
combined with high fiber, youdon't stay hungry because the
fiber satiates you instead ofthe protein satiating you.
So that combination of lowprotein, high fat and
carbohydrate, low fiber,aggressive marketing, addition
(17:28):
of flavor and including salt,large quantities of salt, that's
what the food industry hasdesigned in order to entice us
to do what we're doing at themoment, overeating highly
processed foods to ourdetriment.
I mean, you've plugged into acouple things that I had not
occurred to me, like one, I wasnot fully aware that protein was
(17:50):
our main driver. And I what Iyou know? I know that fruit is
designed to be eaten, but I didnot know that it had a sort of a
trace amount of protein that wasmeant to make us eat more of it
in order to in order to get thatprotein fix. So that's kind of I
absolutely once you say that Ican start to see it in all of
these other foods. The damage ofhigh fructose corn syrup, I've
(18:13):
heard about that before, is thesolution to that as simple as
replacing or as easy asreplacing real sugar with high
fructose corn syrup wherever wecan. Could, could we just
clarify one thing, what'shappening at the fact that that
fruits in nature cause primateslike orangutans to overeat
(18:35):
energy and become obese. It doesnot imply that the same happens
for us. And the reason for thatis that, is that on fruits, we
don't overeat energy, fats andcarbohydrates, for the reason
that they're also rich in fiber.
Right? Orangutans and otherprimates have a gut that isn't
satiated nearly as easily byhigh fiber content. So it's a
(18:55):
very different situation. Yeah,we're certainly not saying don't
eat fruit. No, I get that. I getthat. I get no, no, I understand
what you're saying is, youobserve this behavior in
orangutans in nature, but thenapply and then you can see that
same behavior in the processedfood industry and how humans
relate to it. I understand thedistinction there, and I love
(19:17):
the idea of using fiber. I mean,look, I know for a fact we just
don't get enough fiber in ourdiets. It's a great prebiotic
for keeping your gut in check. Ipsyllium. Hushed powder is a
really inexpensive way. You canadd it to your food, or you can
just put it in water. It's areally inexpensive way to keep
the fiber up in your diet. Sobig fans of both of those, I
just,I guess, you know, I want to
(19:39):
start getting into how to beginto unhack ourselves and start to
do so like, I mean, high proteinfoods to have around. Do we
just? Should we just be havingnuts and seeds that are
naturally high in protein,having low sugar, beef jerky
around, that kind of thing?
Yeah.
(20:00):
Yeah. Well, the key is protein.
And of of all of the nutrients,it's the one that gives you
biggest bang for your buck whenit comes to regulating your your
appetites. And is that becauseof the 12 essential amino acids
like this idea that there's somethings you can only get from
eating actual protein? Yeah, sothere are, it's an
(20:22):
extraordinarily interestingmacronutrient. So
it has a couple of properties.
One is that you can get energyfrom it, of course, as you can
from fats and carbs too. But theone thing that you can't get
from fats and carbs is nitrogen,and you need nitrogen to build
new tissues, to reproduce, tomaintain your cells and so on.
(20:43):
And it comes in the form of 20amino acids.
A bunch of those, nine or 10 ofthem are essential. You can't
make them yourself, nor can mostanimals actually and therefore,
you need a diet which containssufficient quantities of
(21:04):
protein, which has anappropriate balance of those
essential amino acids. So it'squite a complex piece of
nutritional balancing that'srequired, but happily, nature's
done that for us and the proteinappetite animals care a lot
about so it's bad to eat toolittle protein, because
(21:26):
ultimately you won't grow, youwon't be able to reproduce, and
all those other things. But, andwe showed this really
importantly, in a whole seriesof studies, you don't want to
eat too much protein either,because there's a downside to
eating too much protein, and wecan unpack that a little bit,
but the whole point aboutprotein, and I think one of the
(21:49):
key insights that came from ourwork was that if you look at the
last 50 or 60 years over whichthe obesity epidemic has
happened globally, remarkably,protein intake has stayed
virtually the same across thatperiod of time. The excess
calories we've eaten have comeas fats and carbs. And that's
(22:09):
led everybody to say, well, it'sfats and carbs are the problem.
We must have a really powerfulappetite for fats and carbs. And
then there's been this sort of40 year fight over which is
worse, saturated fats or sugar,and that's become more and more
exaggerated, in fact, over time.
And what we pointed out was thefact that protein carbs haven't
(22:31):
contributed to the growingglobal waste line. It's remained
virtually the same. But that'sthat's that's the cause our
body's trying to keep that sameintake year on year of protein
in a world where fats and carbshave diluted protein in the food
supply through these ultraprocessed foods, that's driven
(22:54):
us to eat more and more andmore, our protein appetite sits
underneath all of this, and thatreally turned the world on its
head when it came tounderstanding the global obesity
epidemic, everybody else hadbeen looking at fats and carbs
and fighting with one anotherover which was worse, and all
(23:15):
The while, protein was sittingthere, constant, but driving
masterminding, if you like, theentire problem. Another reason
why our appetites work so hardto ensure that we get the right
amount of protein on a dailybasis, as is the case for many
other species, is unlikecarbohydrates, unlike energy, we
(23:36):
don't have a mechanism forstoring excess protein, right?
We overeat it on a given day,and that means in days when we
are vulnerable to under eatingit, we don't have a store to
draw on to derive amino acids tofuel our metabolism and all the
functions other than leanmuscle, right? You don't, don't
(23:56):
want to be losing thatunnecessarily, yep, right? So
that, yeah, so that's actually,really, that's, that's another
great point. Is you have to dothis consistently, right, where,
if you eat plenty of fat, you'llstore it as fat, and you'll be
fine. If you eat plenty ofcarbohydrates to store as
glycogen and fat, and you'll befine. But, yeah, this protein
concept, that's so I mean, is,is Atkins. The key is that, I
mean, I know you guys aren't fatdiets, but that seems to be what
(24:19):
you're pointing to. Right? Isthis idea of a high protein diet
is the starting place. Well, asif you increase the proportion
of protein in the diet, then youneed to eat fewer calories to
reach your protein target, as wecall it, right? And then you'll
feel more satisfied. So that, tothat extent, that explains
(24:40):
actually why Atkins works. Andnot only Atkins, Atkins has has
concentrated protein in thediet, principally by removing
carbohydrate. And that's that'staken to a the next level in the
ketogenic diets. And even.
Further if you're if you'removing into carnivory and that
(25:04):
particular fat. But it doesn'treally matter, actually, if you
remove non protein energy fromthe diet, you concentrate
protein. You need to eat fewercalories to reach your protein
target. So as a means to limitcalorie intake, a higher protein
diet is fantastic, but and this,and our discovery of that is
(25:27):
used by the fad diet, the higherprotein fad diet industries as
justification for theirparticular business model. And
that's terrific. But like goodscientists, we asked the
question, well, if our bodiesdon't want us to eat too little
protein, we can understand that.
But why are we regulating to anupper limit? Why aren't we
(25:50):
overeating protein when we havethe opportunity? Because we just
don't. And the answer to thatcame from our and many others.
Now experiments showing thatthere's actually a cost to going
on to a higher than optimalprotein diet, and that cost
comes particularly in mid age,middle age and early late age,
(26:11):
where you super drive thepathways that produce the
biology of aging. So you youturn on the pathways that that
accelerate the biology of aging,the growth pathways, the
reproductive pathways, and youturn down the protective
(26:34):
pathways that would otherwisethat would otherwise protect
your cells through period ofshortage. So it's there's a cost
to eating too much protein. Soit's great thing to do if you
want to manage calorie intakefor a period, but once you've
normalized it's, we wouldsuggest, probably not a good
(26:59):
thing to do in the long term.
Interesting. So okay, so let mejust try to get as practical as
possible here, what I hear yousay is, if we overeat the
protein, we're going toaccelerate our aging processes
at the cellular level. Iunderstand that, but so what we
should dois start this whole process by
(27:19):
ingesting more protein or oreating protein and fiber first,
so finding dietary sources ofprotein and fiber to start our
days and and then eating tosatiety. On top of that is that,
is that the key? Yep, that'sthat's not a bad formula,
actually. Gib, yeah. And thesimple way to do it is to remove
(27:41):
extraneous fats and carbs andtry to get to the point where
you get that balance of yourprotein appetite being satiated,
you've got lots of healthy fiberin your diet, And yet you're not
otherwise hungry for carbs andfats, because you do have
(28:02):
separate appetites for them aswell. And that sort of balancing
point, you can titrate proteinand fiber into the diet till you
reach that and you you'll knowthat. You'll start to feel that
yourselves. I mean, what you'resaying is grilled chicken.
Grilled chicken salads.
Basically start with grilledchicken salads. That's your
(28:24):
ideal, that's your idealpalette. And then you can just
sort of replace the grilledchicken elements of the grilled
chicken salad with other thingsas you eat. You know, maybe you
don't want spinach today. Maybeyou want, you know, mixed
greens. And maybe it's not justchicken, it's salmon. And
instead of dressing you'regonna, you're gonna use a bun,
whatever that may Yeah, sure,sure and healthy, healthy,
(28:44):
particularly resistant starchesare powerfully protective, not
only of your gut microbiome andimmune function, but they're
also really healthfulcarbohydrate sources, so things
like sweet potato and starchy,healthy starchy vegetables with
complex starches, the so calledresistant starches, and that can
(29:10):
include wholemeal pastas andeven pastas that you cook, cool
and then refresh with boilingwater. What's happened in there,
in that process is that you'vebound the carbohydrates more
tightly, and they're moreresistant to digestion, and so
you're going to be feeding yourgut microbiome with those sorts
(29:31):
of carbohydrates in a betterway. And similarly, of course,
healthy fats, themonounsaturates,
polyunsaturates, and there's,there's an entire argument
around healthiness of fats andof different carbohydrates, and
sadly, much of that argument isplayed out one nutrient at a
time, and that's a fundamentalproblem in the whole of
(29:53):
nutrition science, which isdiametrically opposite to the
way we've gone about trying tounderstand.
Interactions between nutrientsand other food components. It's
also very important, especiallyfor your listeners, to not to
overthink the issue in terms ofspecific nutrients. In terms of
the science underlying it is avery simple formula, and we've
(30:15):
shown this in experiments. Ifyou surround yourself with
healthy foods, human beings useour appetite systems, like any
other species, to instinctivelyselect a balanced diet. Our
bodies know what it wants, whatthey want. They tell us what to
eat in those situations, andthat leads to a balanced diet.
(30:36):
Yeah, okay, what I'm hearing yousay again is I fill my fridge up
with whole foods. I keep aprotein and fiber the shortest
distance away from me at anygiven time and and then I can
listen to my body after that,which I think is, is probably
the the best thing we could, wecould have in this situation,
right? Like there's a little bitof, if you can, back to the one
(30:58):
of the first things you guyssaid, which I think is, I know
you guys have plenty of academicaccolades, but I think this one
line is really kind of geniuses,is shop with your head, eat with
your gut, or, you know, eat withyour with your appetite. And I
think that's, that's amazing. Imean, I think that's the key,
right? Like, fill up that house.
Start with protein and fire.
Make sure you're getting enoughof that, and then leave, leave
(31:19):
the rest to your, your naturaldesires. That's absolutely
right, and and where issusceptible is everybody. You
know, if I, if I have stuff inthe house that I shouldn't eat,
I'll eat it because it'sdesigned to to make it
impossible to resist. And it'snot a failure of willpower. It's
(31:41):
not a a failure of of anything.
It's nothing to do with withhuman frailty. It's it's the
fact that these things aredesigned to tap into and to
manipulate the most powerfulbiological urges and systems
that that we've evolved, everyanimal has two things that has
(32:04):
to get right in life. One is toeat, and the other is to
reproduce. And those are the twobiggest drivers, along with the
risk of being eaten by somebodyelse and avoiding that, those
drivers have led to the entirehistory of the evolution of
life, agood way to think about it is
highly processed foods. They'reentertainment, they're not
(32:28):
nutrition. And there's nothingwrong with entertainment, but
when entertainment displacesnutrition and diet, then the
problem sets in, and that'swhat's happened on a very large
scale over the past 50 or 60years in our societies. I mean,
and it's not just in food, like,to your point, we have these
appetites for all kinds ofthings, for emotional connection
(32:48):
and what we can get addicted totelevision and video games and
all of these that take us awayfrom real human interaction,
that actually, you know, again,that's a different kind of
satiety, but, but it's, it's thesame content concept. I know
I've asked you to be overlyreductive about your very
extensive and academicallyrigorous research, so I
(33:09):
appreciate you guysbearing with me on that. But I
really do think that the keytakeaway here is pretty amazing,
which is fight start withvibrant protein and go from
there. I do want to talk aboutthe calcium appetite that you
mentioned, and how I don't Idon't really understand. I mean,
I know calcium is good for me. Iknow why I need it for my bones.
I know all of that stuff I'vebeen marketed to by all the
(33:30):
different supplement companies.
But how do I how do I do I havethe high calcium foods there, I
can get it naturally withouthaving to take like, a chew or
something that's gonna hurt mykidneys. Ah, well, the calcium
apatite is probably the leastwell understood of them, but
you're exactly right. You needit for your bones. You need it
(33:55):
for every cell in your body towork properly, because calcium
currents are part of the sparkof life, along with sodium
currents and potassium currentsand so really, and your heart
beats as a result of calcium, sothat everything about you is
reliant on calcium and sodium asto the two key mineral
(34:17):
nutrients. And therefore, notsurprisingly, we've got separate
appetite systems for them. Thesodium one is better understood,
and we we know that. You knowwhen you need sodium, you get
the craving for salty flavors.
And there are wonderful storiesin the natural world of
elephants walking miles intounderground caves to to find
(34:38):
salt licks and and salt can begenerally eaten as a separate
source from the rest of yourcalories, so that that makes it
an easier appetite tounderstand. Calcium is a little
bit more mysterious. We have aspecific taste receptor in.
(35:00):
For for calcium, but, but itdoesn't tap into our
consciousness in the same waythat salt and sweet and some and
and umami do,and calcium is found and
separately ingested. You seethis in the animal kingdom with
birds during periods whenthey're they're laying their
eggs or manufacturing theireggs, they need calcium, so they
(35:20):
seek out high calcium foods,including snails with snail
shells and other sources ofcalcium. We get calcium in a
whole range of different places.
Obviously, dairy is a richsource of calcium, and many of
the leafy green vegetables aswell. So calcium comes coupled
(35:43):
with the nutrients in many ofthe foods that are important
staples in the human diet,and it's probably the one you
need to lead to worry about orthink about, least, because
you're going to get it if youeat whole foods. There's no need
to really worry about it beyondthat. And in the case of sodium,
(36:04):
the thing to worry about theremore is not getting sufficient.
It's it's having to eat too muchas a role as a result of it
being added in to other foodsthat we're eating right to make
them taste nicer. And this takesus back to the processed food
industries, because what you'redoing there is you're pitting
(36:24):
your appetite for sodium againstyour appetites for protein,
carbohydrates and fats, right?
Protein will win, and you'llover eat a low protein food,
despite the fact that to do so,you'll get not only more
calories, but you'll get moresodium as well, and you'll end
(36:45):
up paying the price in bothcases, right? Sodium actually is
a very, very important part ofour food environment. It's
probably, well, not probably. Itcertainly is the nutrient that
causes the most preventabledeaths. Wow, in human societies
now over consumption of sodiumassociated with hypertension,
heart disease and so forth. Andthe reason is, as Steve says, is
(37:09):
that it's not the sodium, it'snot the salt that we're putting
on our foods at home that are atfilters, the fact, without even
knowing it, we're eating largequantities of sodium in the form
of foods that have beenindustrially processed, and
sodium is added as a flavorenhancer to those foods. Yeah,
I've noticed when I've gone on,when I've like, when I when I've
(37:32):
cut out processed foods from mydiet, periodically, there is a
period of time about takes abouta week, maybe four days to a
week and and all of a sudden Ihave these really bad headaches
and all of these things, and mystomach starts to hurt, and I if
I have to actually supplementwith a little bit of salt at
that time, and all of a sudden,my mental clarity comes right
(37:53):
back, because when I've cut theprocessed foods out, my body is
adapting to a much lowerbaseline of sodium intake, and
it takes me a minute to renormalize myself to that. And I
know I'm not a chemistry set,but it feels like it at those
points. Yeah, now you are achemistry set. You're a
fantastic chemistry set, verycomplex, but beautifully
designed one, but you're exactlyright, and your body will adapt
(38:17):
to deal with a higher intake ofsalt than perhaps, is healthy,
and when you come off it, yourbody is still expecting it,
right? And, and, and getting ridof so what happens, typically,
is, if you have too high anintake of a nutrient over a
given period of time or aprolonged period of time, your
(38:39):
body gets very good at gettingrid of the excess, so keeps what
it needs and chucks the restout. The process of chucking it
out through your kidneys, in thecase of salt, comes at a cost,
but it can be done, but it meansthat you're really inefficient
in the way you're using thesalt. And if you cut the intake
of salt, then you'll you'llcontinue to be inefficient, and
(39:04):
therefore not get enough to meetyour actual requirements. So
you'll have at least for aperiod to up it a little bit and
and to readapt physiologically,to set or reset your physiology
so that it's, it's moreefficient, and you're eating,
you're of that that you'reeating, you're wasting less and
(39:24):
using more. Yeah, yeah. I mean,there's a good example actually,
where this is a very positiveside to the story, and that is
that the processed food industryis highly motivated to find ways
of producing profitable foodsthat aren't damaging to health
and, and many examples where,where, where this has been
(39:46):
attempted. One of the ones thatI like is in the United Kingdom
with reducing salt intake in theEnglish population and and the
strategy taken there, for thereasons that that you you saying
Gib is not to reduce the salt.
Content of their productsovernight, but to gradually
reduce the salt content of theproduct product, so that
consumers, their bodies, canadapt to it. And also, the other
(40:09):
thing is that there's no bigshock. There's no big change in
the flavor, in the perception ofthose foods for consumers, and
they reduced salt content intheir lines, in their products
quite considerably withoutconsumers noticing, because they
stepped it down gradually,in a single step interesting. I
mean, it's good to know thatthere is a that there is a
(40:31):
policy level change, that thatthat is bringing that about,
because having experienced itfirsthand, it sort of makes me
hyper aware of just how muchsalt is actually in processed
food because I felt thatwithdrawal situation. So, yeah,
yeah, weirdly, you probably it'sprobably healthier to be adding
salt from a salt shaker right toyour food, because you're able
(40:54):
then to control it independentlyof your other appetites. And
that's the way we design weevolved to meet our appetites
for both sodium and calcium, todo it separately from the
calories and the macronutrients.
And that's true of pretty wellall animals as well. We've
caused the problem by combiningthem also the strong flavor from
(41:16):
the real source of the thing,generally speaking, has a much
more satiating effect. So youknow, I if, if I'm drinking a
soda with high fructose cornsyrup, I can maybe have three
sodas and during one movie, buttry drinking a real sugar soda.
It's hard to finish one. Even ifyou're used to drinking soda,
(41:37):
it's hard to finish one becausethe sugar satiates you. Yep,
that's and that. That reallyaccords with our big study
that's coming out soon, in mice.
Exactly that phenomenon.
That's spot on the other theother thing, of course, is that
if you took something like fruitjuice, where you've taken the
(42:00):
fiber out of it, right? Youimagine eating the number of
apples that would be required toget a liter of apple juice,
which you can swallow in acouple of minutes,
you would burst because of thefiber. Right? In the book, it's
it's four apples per glass. Ofour industries, who's going to
(42:20):
be able to eat four applesanyway? Yeah, who's going to be
able to eat for four apples thatare sitting but we could easily
drink two glasses of right? Andthe difference is the fiber,
everything else is the same. Imean, the book, eat like the
animals. And the big takeawayfor me again is is surround
yourself with whole foods. Focuson that, on that protein. Make
(42:43):
sure you're getting enoughfiber, and let your body do the
rest. Our guests, Davidrobinheimer and Steven Simpson,
both professors. Thank you guysso much for your time. They ask
you two last questions. I knowyour time is valuable, but one
last question, two questions,one, where can people follow up
with you? Aside from buying thebook. Link to where to buy the
book in the show notes.
(43:04):
Follow up us on Twitter. You canfollow us on Twitter at eat like
the animals. And actually, ifyou if you've searched for us on
the internet, you'll find thelink to the Charles Perkins
Center here at the University ofSydney.
And we're really delighted toengage with people. We're trying
(43:24):
here to change the way that weconceive of nutrition and the
food system, and really,ultimately, to put it, put it
right, yeah, and taking ourinspiration from
the process that is evolved thesolution to the most complex
challenge that faces biology,which is the challenge of
(43:46):
nutrition, natural selection.
Evolution has solved thatinnumerable times in animals
across the history of theevolution of life, and we've got
a lot to learn, to learn and alot to listen to from them. And
as we said at the beginning,it's actually a good news story.
It's not a bad news story,because we now understand
clearly what is driving theprocess of the epidemic of poor
(44:11):
health, poor nutrition relatedhealth. And if you understand
that process, then it's mucheasier to deal with it in a
constructive way, both at theindividual level, as we were
saying, in terms of choosingwhich foods you surround
yourself with, and ultimately,at the societal level, of
changing the broader foodenvironment to help individuals
to do that. Yeah, I appreciateyou guys allowing me to be,
(44:34):
again, so reductive in myassumptions about your research,
but I think you're absolutelyright. Like it's not really,
it's not a bio hack. It's a biounhack. We're really just
allowing our body to adapt, toadapt back to what it's supposed
to be, as opposed to what we'vewe've sort of fixed it in one
last question for both of youand I, because I ask it to
everybody, what is one thingthat we can all start doing
(44:55):
today that will make our lives awhole lot better? Yeah.
To reduce the amount of highlyprocessed industrial foods that
we buy and take into our homes.
Very simple step to sum upagain, shop with your mind and
eat with your appetite, spoton, and eat like the animals. I
(45:17):
think you should read it,because it's a remarkable
detective story, apart fromanything else, a scientific
detective story. So if you wantto understand how your body
works, how it's evolved, and howto listen to it,
(45:39):
then I eat like the animals linkagain, where to where to buy
that in the show notestranslated into what 10
languages now? So this is aphenomenon.
Well, yeah, I think it's 10 or11 at the moment. Yeah, it's
been a, it's been a great ride.
It's, it's 35 years of hardscience. But we tell that story
professors, very different onein the sense that we've taken
(46:03):
our inspiration and our insightand an approach to the human
nutrition crisis from thenatural world, and that is what
has enabled us to see things insuch a different way, as we say
in the book, sometimes to seethings clearly. It's an odd
truth that you first have tolook away, and that's what we've
done. We've spent many decadeslooking away at other species
(46:25):
and then turning back to ourown, and that's what that's the
story we tell, indeed, like theanimals, there you have it.
Professors, thank you guys somuch for your time today. We
really appreciate it. That's apleasure. Gib, good speaking
with you. That's it for our showtoday. If you like the show,
please rate, comment andsubscribe on Apple podcast,
Spotify, Stitcher, wherever youget your podcast, it helps us
(46:47):
out a lot. You can also linkwith us on social media,
facebook.com, John Tesh, at JohnTesh. On Instagram, you can also
call me. I'm Gib Gerard onTwitter, at Gib Gerard on
Instagram, at Gib Gerard. Andfacebook.com/gib,
Gerard. I try to respond toeverything that you guys say or
post about the show, becauseultimately, I do the show for
you guys. So thank you so muchfor listening.
(47:13):
You.
Gib. Hello and welcome to another episode of
intelligence for your life. Thepodcast, I'm Gib Gerard, and our
guests this week are none otherthan professors, David
robinheimer and Stephen JSimpson. They are authors of the
new book? Well, it's not reallynew. It's been around for a
while, but it's being translatedinto 10 different languages.
Now, eat like the animals. Isthe name of the book, and it is
(00:28):
exactly what it sounds like. Itis about how we can use our own
natural appetites, understandingour own natural appetites, in
order to eat food and navigatethe modern food system in a way
that is beneficial to ourbodies. We're going to talk
about this in detail in a secondhere, but look, the core problem
is this, we have a ton ofcalories and not a lot of
nutritious food, and that iscreating a huge problem when it
(00:52):
comes to the health of oursociety. So it's a unique time
in human history. We've neverhad people that get more
calories than they do nutrients.
But that's where we are rightnow, and he they're going to
teach us how, through theirresearch, we can use our again,
our own natural appetites inorder to eat the right kind of
foods, so that we're getting thevitamins, minerals and nutrients
that our body actually needs tofunction without having an
excess of calories. This is,this is the kind of thing that,
(01:15):
like you talk about, how hard,how much willpower it takes to
lose weight. This is the kind ofunderstanding that actually
hacks your own willpower. Itdoesn't become willpower. You
can just follow your appetitesif you are eating, if you start
by eating the right foods. Sothere's some amazing nuggets in
here. If you are somebody thatthat struggles with late night
snacking, if you're somebodythat that always has those, you
(01:36):
know, those, those comfort foodsthat you reach for when you're
not feeling great aboutyourself. This is the way to
start to unload those things sothat you in those habits, so
that you can actually live yourbest, best life and have your
have the best health from thefood that you're eating in your
body. I have two quick pieces ofintelligence to give you before
we get to the interview. If youwould like people to agree with
(01:58):
you, I have some tricks to helpmake that happen? They come from
management expert Jeff Hayden,author of The motivation myth,
and these tactics are proven tomake you significantly more
persuasive. First, focus on thepositive. For example, instead
of telling people what they'redoing wrong, tell them you can
help them get things right.
(02:18):
Hayden says that simple shift inphrasing and mindset is
guaranteed to make you moreinfluential, because when people
see what the positive outcomecould be if they make a change,
they are far more likely toagree with you. Also pay
attention to how people areresponding to your ideas and
adjust your rate of speechaccordingly, meaning talk faster
if they seem ready to give you arebuttal. Hayden says there's a
(02:41):
reason salesmen are notoriousfast talkers, because a faster
rate of speech gives people lesstime to think of reasons to
disagree. Fast talking holdspeople's attention if you want
to go further. Again, that bookis the motivation myth by
management expert Jeff Hayden.
All right, that's, I mean,there's some good advice packed
in there. I'll put a link to themotivation myth in the show
notes, so you guys can check outthat book if you're interested.
(03:01):
You're interested. Here we go.
One last piece of intelligence.
We talk a lot about the healthbenefits of being in nature. I
mean, we talked, we're going totalk about that in a second here
about, you know, natural foodeating, but, but it's it's
important. Studies have shown itcan actually lower stress and
blood pressure and reduce therisks of asthma, diabetes and
heart disease, while alsoboosting mental health and
longevity. But how much timeoutdoors do we need in order to
(03:23):
reap these results? Well,according to the scientific
reports, the answer is right,about two hours each week. The
study looked at data from nearly20,000 people who recorded their
activities within the span of aweek, and it found that people
who spent two hours a weekoutdoors reported being in
better health and having agreater sense of well being, and
that's why an increasing numberof physicians are writing nature
(03:44):
prescriptions to motivate peopleto go outdoors. And the Journal
found you don't need your naturefix every day. They found that
getting your two hours all atonce, it works just as well. So
there you go. You know, focus onthe positive. Adjust your rate
of speech. That's in order tomotivate people around you, and,
of course, get into nature.
(04:05):
Those are two pieces ofintelligence you can take with
you in order to live your bestlife this week. But folks here,
most importantly is my interviewwith the authors of eat like the
animals, professors, Davidrobinheimer and Steven Simpson.
David robinheimer and StevenSimpson, authors of the book,
eat like the animals. Veryexcited to have you guys with
us. Thank you so much for beingwith us today. Thanks guys
(04:27):
again. All right, so we're goingto dive right into this, because
this is actually something thatI'm really passionate about. I
believe, I believe that we havetoo much food that is too easy
for us to get, and it's all beenengineered to make us want it in
a way that we shouldn't everwant it. And because of that, we
have, we have overweight,malnourished people for the
first time in human history,which is like mind blowing to
(04:49):
me, right? We're not gettingenough vitamins, but we're
getting too many calories. Andyou seem to have the solution
with this from from all of yourfrom all of your studies. So you
know, I.
Uh, how do we eat like animals?
How do we get how do we get thatback? How do we get that sort of
natural way of eating back?
Well, Gib, you've stated theproblem perfectly. That's
exactly the situation, and thereason is precisely, as you
(05:13):
said, that we've designed a foodenvironment that quite
literally, is hacking our basicbiology and the story of eat
like the animals is, how doesour basic biology work, and how
should it work, and why does itgo wrong in the modern food
environment? And what we'velearned is essentially that we,
(05:36):
like all animals, have evolvedthese exquisite appetite control
systems that measure andregulate the intake of a series
of key nutrients in our diet,protein, fat, carbohydrate, salt
and calcium, and that thoseappetites should be guiding us
to a healthy, healthy weight andgood lifelong health, but
(06:01):
Because of the fact that we'renow in a world where our food
environment is tapping intothose appetites, subverting
them, hacking them, we've gotterrible problems, right? So
we're we're really trying tounderstand the biology of where
things have gone wrong, andcoming up with simple solutions
to put it right again. And it'snot only the biology. We're also
(06:22):
trying to understand the ecologyof how these these mechanisms
that we share with otherspecies, what sort of
circumstances they involved in,and how those circumstances
differ in our modern world. Andone really key difference is
that we've studied over the past3035, years, I think it's 40 or
more species, and both in thewild and in the laboratory. So
(06:46):
we understand the natural worldwell. One very key, very
important difference is that innature, there are very few foods
that are designed specificallyto be eaten and eaten in large
quantities. If you think aboutthat, maybe fruits are that way
because they provide a dispersalmechanism for the seeds of
(07:07):
plants. Nectar is a little bitlike that, but most foods are
averse to being eaten, sobiology has evolved to deal with
that aversion, to cope with theobstacles to nutrition, and
suddenly we find ourselves inthe environment that's the exact
opposite, and that is, we've gotfoods beckoning out our
appetites to be eaten and eatenin large quantities.
(07:30):
Interesting. I mean, I neverthought of it, framing it like
that, but it is. It's a greatpoint. Like you said, there's,
there's a handful of things thatare meant to be eaten, and the
rest is a fight. Have we lostthis battle? I mean, obviously
you guys wrote the book, so youdon't think we've lost it, but I
I being inundated with all ofthis stuff, day in, day out, and
fad diets and all of these otherthings. How do we begin to
(07:51):
unpack those? You know, youmentioned five core appetites
for, you know, carbohydrates,protein, fat, calcium and what
am I missing? Siding, yeah,yeah.
So we've far from lost thebattle. I think we've just begun
the battle, because it's onlyvery recently that we've come to
(08:11):
understand the mechanisms in theway that we've described in the
book that are driving theproblem. So I think with that
understanding, we reallyempowered to approach the
situation in a very differentway, and that is what the book
is about. Because there's areally, it's a good news story
in the sense that we haven'tbroken our biology. It still
(08:33):
works. It's still there. Andit's really a question of how we
use our biology of appetite,those five appetites you
mentioned, to our best benefit,to our best health, rather than
for the profits of the ultraprocessed food industries. So
it's not a bad story. It's agood story. We've got these
(08:56):
latent abilities, extraordinaryabilities, to regulate our our
own nutrition, without having tohave technology involved,
without having to even countcalories. It can be done for us,
but we just need to listen tothose appetites and to put them
in the right food environments.
Right. Okay, so, so most of usare not.
(09:21):
Most of us are not very welleducated about the food that
we're putting into our bodies.
Most of us are overworked, overstressed. We don't sleep enough,
which also, you know, I'vemesses with our ability to make
good food choices.
So we live in this life that alot of us can't undo. You know,
we've got children and jobs andhobbies, and at the end of the
(09:45):
day, we are going to go the pathof least resistance. No matter
how much we fight. We may die itfor a little while, we may get
in better shape. How do we startto deal with a multi billion
dollar industry that is tellingus to just reach for the quick
fix and.
And instead, listen our bodies,because I would love to go live
on a farm and grow my own foodand eat organic vegetables all
the time, and listen to my body.
I just I don't live that life.
(10:08):
So how do we start to unpackwhat you've learned and what
your research has shown andapplying it to our daily lives?
Well, there's there's a longterm solution and a short term
solution. The long term solutionis that we really need to work
as a society together withindustry. Industry is not an
evil organization institutiontrying to ruin the health of the
population. Industry is doingwhat industry is set up to do,
(10:31):
and that is making profit,right? Doing it very well,
unfortunately, now via routethat is wreaking havoc on public
health globally. So that's alonger term project, the shorter
term project that is each of usis really empowered and is the
capacity to decide what sort offood environment we want to live
in. Do we want to live in anenvironment where a food by a
(10:54):
food environment, I mean a localfood environment. What sort of
foods do we want to surroundourselves with at home, so that
when we when our appetites areactivating us to eat, they we
reach for something that they'reequipped to cope with, which
isn't highly processed foods,but our whole foods.
Fortunately, those are stillavailable in large quantities
(11:15):
within our environment. They areopen to our choice, to our
selection. We can regulate whatcomes into our household. So the
way that we put it is to to shopwith your brains and eat with
your appetites. Interesting.
Okay, so that's actually a greatpoint, right? If you don't have
the cookies and the Pop Tarts inyour house, you're not going to
reach for those engineeredfoods. You're going to reach for
whatever you have, and thatcould be a thing of blueberries
(11:37):
or an apple or whatever that maybe. So the first step is to, I
love that shop with your shop,with your mind, eat with your
appetite. So the first stepagain, shop and put the foods,
the whole foods, into your home,that that will, that are, that
are best suited for you. How dowe how do we begin to deprogram
ourselves? Because I know whenI'm exercising well and I'm
(12:00):
eating well, I have no problemlistening to my body and eating
good foods. The hard part isgetting to the place where I've
deprogrammed myself after alittle while. So how do we start
that deprogramming process sothat we can listen to those two
we can listen to those appetitesthat we really need?
Yeah, now that that's that's agreat question and, and as David
(12:23):
said, it starts with surroundingyourself with appropriate foods.
And it's, it's a really, Ithink, an important lesson to
learn is how your appetites arebeing distorted and and hacked.
And a beautiful example of thatis the protein appetite. Now we
(12:44):
know, and we'll talk about thatmore. I'm sure that the protein
appetite is our most powerfulappetite. It's the one that will
dominate when you come to befaced with choices around what
you should or shouldn't eat inrelation to other nutrients,
protein will dominate. Now, whenyour protein appetite is hungry,
(13:06):
you start to crave particularflavors, and those are the
classic savory flavors, umamiflavors, as the Japanese call
them, your body's telling youyou need to eat protein. Protein
has become associated in ourevolutionary past with that
flavor, that set of flavors, andso you you're seeking those
(13:29):
flavors. Now, the nearest sourceof savory flavor in most food
environments will be a packet ofDoritos or some other savory
snack that has that distinctivelip smacking umami flavor that
is, in fact, simply a proteindecoy, because all it is is a
pile of fat and carbs you'regoing to reach for those,
(13:51):
they'll taste fantastic, andyour your protein appetite will
remain unsatiated, and you'regoing to have to eat yet more
calories to Try and find it. Sothere's an example where a
simple understanding of anappetite system can be it can
sort of lift the veil over overhow the food environment is is
(14:13):
manipulating our appetites, andit gives you something to work
with when it comes to fightingback. And you can see the same
mechanism operating in thenatural world. We write at
length in the book about theorangutans and how they respond
in the wild. So orangutans havethis situation where fruits are
(14:34):
periodically abundant and thenthey're very scarce. And what
happens is, of course, it's inthe trees interests to have the
fruits eaten by orangutans,because that's a mechanism for
dispersing the seeds. So thefruits are effectively, the
trees are enticing theorangutans to eat those fruits,
and the way that they entice theorangutan one of the few foods
(14:55):
in nature that really aredesigned to be eaten in large
quantities.
And the way they do that is verysimilar to the way that
processed foods entice us to eatthem, and that is, they have a
low proportion of protein tofats and carbohydrates. And what
that means is you have to eat alot of the food to satiate your
(15:16):
protein out as Steve was saying,so in a way, the food industry
is keyed into something thatnature has keyed into millions
and millions of years ago, usingsimilar mechanisms to entice
over consumption of foods forthe benefit not of the consumer,
but for the benefit of the foodproducer. Trees in nature, a
(15:36):
highly processed food industryin our society, that bliss point
is the other obvious example ofthat, where if you combine fats
and sugars in roughly equalmeasure, then you end up with
this super palatable substancewhich is going to induce you to
eat a little bit more of it thanyou otherwise would. And again,
(15:56):
we see this in nature onoccasions, and we've even got
there's a massive study comingout from the lab in a couple of
weeks time in in a journalcalled Nature metabolism, where
we've found that high fructosecorn syrup, that one to one
mixture of glucose to fructose,hits not only The sweet spot
(16:20):
when it comes to driving overconsumption far more than even
sucrose, the table sugar, whichis those same two nutrients,
mixed but but bound together ina single molecule. And also it
activates lipogenesis with fatdeposition with greatest with,
(16:43):
with, with with greatest force.
So you actually have thiscombination which is designed to
cause you to eat more and hasbiggest impact on your
physiology, in this case, interms of laying down fat. And
add to that the fact that fiberis also stripped out of highly
processed food, and fiberoperates as a brake on the
(17:05):
appetite system. So if you havea relatively low protein diet
combined with high fiber, youdon't stay hungry because the
fiber satiates you instead ofthe protein satiating you.
So that combination of lowprotein, high fat and
carbohydrate, low fiber,aggressive marketing, addition
(17:28):
of flavor and including salt,large quantities of salt, that's
what the food industry hasdesigned in order to entice us
to do what we're doing at themoment, overeating highly
processed foods to ourdetriment.
I mean, you've plugged into acouple things that I had not
occurred to me, like one, I wasnot fully aware that protein was
(17:50):
our main driver. And I what Iyou know? I know that fruit is
designed to be eaten, but I didnot know that it had a sort of a
trace amount of protein that wasmeant to make us eat more of it
in order to in order to get thatprotein fix. So that's kind of I
absolutely once you say that Ican start to see it in all of
these other foods. The damage ofhigh fructose corn syrup, I've
(18:13):
heard about that before, is thesolution to that as simple as
replacing or as easy asreplacing real sugar with high
fructose corn syrup wherever wecan. Could, could we just
clarify one thing, what'shappening at the fact that that
fruits in nature cause primateslike orangutans to overeat
(18:35):
energy and become obese. It doesnot imply that the same happens
for us. And the reason for thatis that, is that on fruits, we
don't overeat energy, fats andcarbohydrates, for the reason
that they're also rich in fiber.
Right? Orangutans and otherprimates have a gut that isn't
satiated nearly as easily byhigh fiber content. So it's a
(18:55):
very different situation. Yeah,we're certainly not saying don't
eat fruit. No, I get that. I getthat. I get no, no, I understand
what you're saying is, youobserve this behavior in
orangutans in nature, but thenapply and then you can see that
same behavior in the processedfood industry and how humans
relate to it. I understand thedistinction there, and I love
(19:17):
the idea of using fiber. I mean,look, I know for a fact we just
don't get enough fiber in ourdiets. It's a great prebiotic
for keeping your gut in check. Ipsyllium. Hushed powder is a
really inexpensive way. You canadd it to your food, or you can
just put it in water. It's areally inexpensive way to keep
the fiber up in your diet. Sobig fans of both of those, I
just,I guess, you know, I want to
(19:39):
start getting into how to beginto unhack ourselves and start to
do so like, I mean, high proteinfoods to have around. Do we
just? Should we just be havingnuts and seeds that are
naturally high in protein,having low sugar, beef jerky
around, that kind of thing?
Yeah.
(20:00):
Yeah. Well, the key is protein.
And of of all of the nutrients,it's the one that gives you
biggest bang for your buck whenit comes to regulating your your
appetites. And is that becauseof the 12 essential amino acids
like this idea that there's somethings you can only get from
eating actual protein? Yeah, sothere are, it's an
(20:22):
extraordinarily interestingmacronutrient. So
it has a couple of properties.
One is that you can get energyfrom it, of course, as you can
from fats and carbs too. But theone thing that you can't get
from fats and carbs is nitrogen,and you need nitrogen to build
new tissues, to reproduce, tomaintain your cells and so on.
(20:43):
And it comes in the form of 20amino acids.
A bunch of those, nine or 10 ofthem are essential. You can't
make them yourself, nor can mostanimals actually and therefore,
you need a diet which containssufficient quantities of
(21:04):
protein, which has anappropriate balance of those
essential amino acids. So it'squite a complex piece of
nutritional balancing that'srequired, but happily, nature's
done that for us and the proteinappetite animals care a lot
about so it's bad to eat toolittle protein, because
(21:26):
ultimately you won't grow, youwon't be able to reproduce, and
all those other things. But, andwe showed this really
importantly, in a whole seriesof studies, you don't want to
eat too much protein either,because there's a downside to
eating too much protein, and wecan unpack that a little bit,
but the whole point aboutprotein, and I think one of the
(21:49):
key insights that came from ourwork was that if you look at the
last 50 or 60 years over whichthe obesity epidemic has
happened globally, remarkably,protein intake has stayed
virtually the same across thatperiod of time. The excess
calories we've eaten have comeas fats and carbs. And that's
(22:09):
led everybody to say, well, it'sfats and carbs are the problem.
We must have a really powerfulappetite for fats and carbs. And
then there's been this sort of40 year fight over which is
worse, saturated fats or sugar,and that's become more and more
exaggerated, in fact, over time.
And what we pointed out was thefact that protein carbs haven't
(22:31):
contributed to the growingglobal waste line. It's remained
virtually the same. But that'sthat's that's the cause our
body's trying to keep that sameintake year on year of protein
in a world where fats and carbshave diluted protein in the food
supply through these ultraprocessed foods, that's driven
(22:54):
us to eat more and more andmore, our protein appetite sits
underneath all of this, and thatreally turned the world on its
head when it came tounderstanding the global obesity
epidemic, everybody else hadbeen looking at fats and carbs
and fighting with one anotherover which was worse, and all
(23:15):
The while, protein was sittingthere, constant, but driving
masterminding, if you like, theentire problem. Another reason
why our appetites work so hardto ensure that we get the right
amount of protein on a dailybasis, as is the case for many
other species, is unlikecarbohydrates, unlike energy, we
(23:36):
don't have a mechanism forstoring excess protein, right?
We overeat it on a given day,and that means in days when we
are vulnerable to under eatingit, we don't have a store to
draw on to derive amino acids tofuel our metabolism and all the
functions other than leanmuscle, right? You don't, don't
(23:56):
want to be losing thatunnecessarily, yep, right? So
that, yeah, so that's actually,really, that's, that's another
great point. Is you have to dothis consistently, right, where,
if you eat plenty of fat, you'llstore it as fat, and you'll be
fine. If you eat plenty ofcarbohydrates to store as
glycogen and fat, and you'll befine. But, yeah, this protein
concept, that's so I mean, is,is Atkins. The key is that, I
mean, I know you guys aren't fatdiets, but that seems to be what
(24:19):
you're pointing to. Right? Isthis idea of a high protein diet
is the starting place. Well, asif you increase the proportion
of protein in the diet, then youneed to eat fewer calories to
reach your protein target, as wecall it, right? And then you'll
feel more satisfied. So that, tothat extent, that explains
(24:40):
actually why Atkins works. Andnot only Atkins, Atkins has has
concentrated protein in thediet, principally by removing
carbohydrate. And that's that'staken to a the next level in the
ketogenic diets. And even.
Further if you're if you'removing into carnivory and that
(25:04):
particular fat. But it doesn'treally matter, actually, if you
remove non protein energy fromthe diet, you concentrate
protein. You need to eat fewercalories to reach your protein
target. So as a means to limitcalorie intake, a higher protein
diet is fantastic, but and this,and our discovery of that is
(25:27):
used by the fad diet, the higherprotein fad diet industries as
justification for theirparticular business model. And
that's terrific. But like goodscientists, we asked the
question, well, if our bodiesdon't want us to eat too little
protein, we can understand that.
But why are we regulating to anupper limit? Why aren't we
(25:50):
overeating protein when we havethe opportunity? Because we just
don't. And the answer to thatcame from our and many others.
Now experiments showing thatthere's actually a cost to going
on to a higher than optimalprotein diet, and that cost
comes particularly in mid age,middle age and early late age,
(26:11):
where you super drive thepathways that produce the
biology of aging. So you youturn on the pathways that that
accelerate the biology of aging,the growth pathways, the
reproductive pathways, and youturn down the protective
(26:34):
pathways that would otherwisethat would otherwise protect
your cells through period ofshortage. So it's there's a cost
to eating too much protein. Soit's great thing to do if you
want to manage calorie intakefor a period, but once you've
normalized it's, we wouldsuggest, probably not a good
(26:59):
thing to do in the long term.
Interesting. So okay, so let mejust try to get as practical as
possible here, what I hear yousay is, if we overeat the
protein, we're going toaccelerate our aging processes
at the cellular level. Iunderstand that, but so what we
should dois start this whole process by
(27:19):
ingesting more protein or oreating protein and fiber first,
so finding dietary sources ofprotein and fiber to start our
days and and then eating tosatiety. On top of that is that,
is that the key? Yep, that'sthat's not a bad formula,
actually. Gib, yeah. And thesimple way to do it is to remove
(27:41):
extraneous fats and carbs andtry to get to the point where
you get that balance of yourprotein appetite being satiated,
you've got lots of healthy fiberin your diet, And yet you're not
otherwise hungry for carbs andfats, because you do have
(28:02):
separate appetites for them aswell. And that sort of balancing
point, you can titrate proteinand fiber into the diet till you
reach that and you you'll knowthat. You'll start to feel that
yourselves. I mean, what you'resaying is grilled chicken.
Grilled chicken salads.
Basically start with grilledchicken salads. That's your
(28:24):
ideal, that's your idealpalette. And then you can just
sort of replace the grilledchicken elements of the grilled
chicken salad with other thingsas you eat. You know, maybe you
don't want spinach today. Maybeyou want, you know, mixed
greens. And maybe it's not justchicken, it's salmon. And
instead of dressing you'regonna, you're gonna use a bun,
whatever that may Yeah, sure,sure and healthy, healthy,
(28:44):
particularly resistant starchesare powerfully protective, not
only of your gut microbiome andimmune function, but they're
also really healthfulcarbohydrate sources, so things
like sweet potato and starchy,healthy starchy vegetables with
complex starches, the so calledresistant starches, and that can
(29:10):
include wholemeal pastas andeven pastas that you cook, cool
and then refresh with boilingwater. What's happened in there,
in that process is that you'vebound the carbohydrates more
tightly, and they're moreresistant to digestion, and so
you're going to be feeding yourgut microbiome with those sorts
(29:31):
of carbohydrates in a betterway. And similarly, of course,
healthy fats, themonounsaturates,
polyunsaturates, and there's,there's an entire argument
around healthiness of fats andof different carbohydrates, and
sadly, much of that argument isplayed out one nutrient at a
time, and that's a fundamentalproblem in the whole of
(29:53):
nutrition science, which isdiametrically opposite to the
way we've gone about trying tounderstand.
Interactions between nutrientsand other food components. It's
also very important, especiallyfor your listeners, to not to
overthink the issue in terms ofspecific nutrients. In terms of
the science underlying it is avery simple formula, and we've
(30:15):
shown this in experiments. Ifyou surround yourself with
healthy foods, human beings useour appetite systems, like any
other species, to instinctivelyselect a balanced diet. Our
bodies know what it wants, whatthey want. They tell us what to
eat in those situations, andthat leads to a balanced diet.
(30:36):
Yeah, okay, what I'm hearing yousay again is I fill my fridge up
with whole foods. I keep aprotein and fiber the shortest
distance away from me at anygiven time and and then I can
listen to my body after that,which I think is, is probably
the the best thing we could, wecould have in this situation,
right? Like there's a little bitof, if you can, back to the one
(30:58):
of the first things you guyssaid, which I think is, I know
you guys have plenty of academicaccolades, but I think this one
line is really kind of geniuses,is shop with your head, eat with
your gut, or, you know, eat withyour with your appetite. And I
think that's, that's amazing. Imean, I think that's the key,
right? Like, fill up that house.
Start with protein and fire.
Make sure you're getting enoughof that, and then leave, leave
(31:19):
the rest to your, your naturaldesires. That's absolutely
right, and and where issusceptible is everybody. You
know, if I, if I have stuff inthe house that I shouldn't eat,
I'll eat it because it'sdesigned to to make it
impossible to resist. And it'snot a failure of willpower. It's
(31:41):
not a a failure of of anything.
It's nothing to do with withhuman frailty. It's it's the
fact that these things aredesigned to tap into and to
manipulate the most powerfulbiological urges and systems
that that we've evolved, everyanimal has two things that has
(32:04):
to get right in life. One is toeat, and the other is to
reproduce. And those are the twobiggest drivers, along with the
risk of being eaten by somebodyelse and avoiding that, those
drivers have led to the entirehistory of the evolution of
life, agood way to think about it is
highly processed foods. They'reentertainment, they're not
(32:28):
nutrition. And there's nothingwrong with entertainment, but
when entertainment displacesnutrition and diet, then the
problem sets in, and that'swhat's happened on a very large
scale over the past 50 or 60years in our societies. I mean,
and it's not just in food, like,to your point, we have these
appetites for all kinds ofthings, for emotional connection
(32:48):
and what we can get addicted totelevision and video games and
all of these that take us awayfrom real human interaction,
that actually, you know, again,that's a different kind of
satiety, but, but it's, it's thesame content concept. I know
I've asked you to be overlyreductive about your very
extensive and academicallyrigorous research, so I
(33:09):
appreciate you guysbearing with me on that. But I
really do think that the keytakeaway here is pretty amazing,
which is fight start withvibrant protein and go from
there. I do want to talk aboutthe calcium appetite that you
mentioned, and how I don't Idon't really understand. I mean,
I know calcium is good for me. Iknow why I need it for my bones.
I know all of that stuff I'vebeen marketed to by all the
(33:30):
different supplement companies.
But how do I how do I do I havethe high calcium foods there, I
can get it naturally withouthaving to take like, a chew or
something that's gonna hurt mykidneys. Ah, well, the calcium
apatite is probably the leastwell understood of them, but
you're exactly right. You needit for your bones. You need it
(33:55):
for every cell in your body towork properly, because calcium
currents are part of the sparkof life, along with sodium
currents and potassium currentsand so really, and your heart
beats as a result of calcium, sothat everything about you is
reliant on calcium and sodium asto the two key mineral
(34:17):
nutrients. And therefore, notsurprisingly, we've got separate
appetite systems for them. Thesodium one is better understood,
and we we know that. You knowwhen you need sodium, you get
the craving for salty flavors.
And there are wonderful storiesin the natural world of
elephants walking miles intounderground caves to to find
(34:38):
salt licks and and salt can begenerally eaten as a separate
source from the rest of yourcalories, so that that makes it
an easier appetite tounderstand. Calcium is a little
bit more mysterious. We have aspecific taste receptor in.
(35:00):
For for calcium, but, but itdoesn't tap into our
consciousness in the same waythat salt and sweet and some and
and umami do,and calcium is found and
separately ingested. You seethis in the animal kingdom with
birds during periods whenthey're they're laying their
eggs or manufacturing theireggs, they need calcium, so they
(35:20):
seek out high calcium foods,including snails with snail
shells and other sources ofcalcium. We get calcium in a
whole range of different places.
Obviously, dairy is a richsource of calcium, and many of
the leafy green vegetables aswell. So calcium comes coupled
(35:43):
with the nutrients in many ofthe foods that are important
staples in the human diet,and it's probably the one you
need to lead to worry about orthink about, least, because
you're going to get it if youeat whole foods. There's no need
to really worry about it beyondthat. And in the case of sodium,
(36:04):
the thing to worry about theremore is not getting sufficient.
It's it's having to eat too muchas a role as a result of it
being added in to other foodsthat we're eating right to make
them taste nicer. And this takesus back to the processed food
industries, because what you'redoing there is you're pitting
(36:24):
your appetite for sodium againstyour appetites for protein,
carbohydrates and fats, right?
Protein will win, and you'llover eat a low protein food,
despite the fact that to do so,you'll get not only more
calories, but you'll get moresodium as well, and you'll end
(36:45):
up paying the price in bothcases, right? Sodium actually is
a very, very important part ofour food environment. It's
probably, well, not probably. Itcertainly is the nutrient that
causes the most preventabledeaths. Wow, in human societies
now over consumption of sodiumassociated with hypertension,
heart disease and so forth. Andthe reason is, as Steve says, is
(37:09):
that it's not the sodium, it'snot the salt that we're putting
on our foods at home that are atfilters, the fact, without even
knowing it, we're eating largequantities of sodium in the form
of foods that have beenindustrially processed, and
sodium is added as a flavorenhancer to those foods. Yeah,
I've noticed when I've gone on,when I've like, when I when I've
(37:32):
cut out processed foods from mydiet, periodically, there is a
period of time about takes abouta week, maybe four days to a
week and and all of a sudden Ihave these really bad headaches
and all of these things, and mystomach starts to hurt, and I if
I have to actually supplementwith a little bit of salt at
that time, and all of a sudden,my mental clarity comes right
(37:53):
back, because when I've cut theprocessed foods out, my body is
adapting to a much lowerbaseline of sodium intake, and
it takes me a minute to renormalize myself to that. And I
know I'm not a chemistry set,but it feels like it at those
points. Yeah, now you are achemistry set. You're a
fantastic chemistry set, verycomplex, but beautifully
designed one, but you're exactlyright, and your body will adapt
(38:17):
to deal with a higher intake ofsalt than perhaps, is healthy,
and when you come off it, yourbody is still expecting it,
right? And, and, and getting ridof so what happens, typically,
is, if you have too high anintake of a nutrient over a
given period of time or aprolonged period of time, your
(38:39):
body gets very good at gettingrid of the excess, so keeps what
it needs and chucks the restout. The process of chucking it
out through your kidneys, in thecase of salt, comes at a cost,
but it can be done, but it meansthat you're really inefficient
in the way you're using thesalt. And if you cut the intake
of salt, then you'll you'llcontinue to be inefficient, and
(39:04):
therefore not get enough to meetyour actual requirements. So
you'll have at least for aperiod to up it a little bit and
and to readapt physiologically,to set or reset your physiology
so that it's, it's moreefficient, and you're eating,
you're of that that you'reeating, you're wasting less and
(39:24):
using more. Yeah, yeah. I mean,there's a good example actually,
where this is a very positiveside to the story, and that is
that the processed food industryis highly motivated to find ways
of producing profitable foodsthat aren't damaging to health
and, and many examples where,where, where this has been
(39:46):
attempted. One of the ones thatI like is in the United Kingdom
with reducing salt intake in theEnglish population and and the
strategy taken there, for thereasons that that you you saying
Gib is not to reduce the salt.
Content of their productsovernight, but to gradually
reduce the salt content of theproduct product, so that
consumers, their bodies, canadapt to it. And also, the other
(40:09):
thing is that there's no bigshock. There's no big change in
the flavor, in the perception ofthose foods for consumers, and
they reduced salt content intheir lines, in their products
quite considerably withoutconsumers noticing, because they
stepped it down gradually,in a single step interesting. I
mean, it's good to know thatthere is a that there is a
(40:31):
policy level change, that thatthat is bringing that about,
because having experienced itfirsthand, it sort of makes me
hyper aware of just how muchsalt is actually in processed
food because I felt thatwithdrawal situation. So, yeah,
yeah, weirdly, you probably it'sprobably healthier to be adding
salt from a salt shaker right toyour food, because you're able
(40:54):
then to control it independentlyof your other appetites. And
that's the way we design weevolved to meet our appetites
for both sodium and calcium, todo it separately from the
calories and the macronutrients.
And that's true of pretty wellall animals as well. We've
caused the problem by combiningthem also the strong flavor from
(41:16):
the real source of the thing,generally speaking, has a much
more satiating effect. So youknow, I if, if I'm drinking a
soda with high fructose cornsyrup, I can maybe have three
sodas and during one movie, buttry drinking a real sugar soda.
It's hard to finish one. Even ifyou're used to drinking soda,
(41:37):
it's hard to finish one becausethe sugar satiates you. Yep,
that's and that. That reallyaccords with our big study
that's coming out soon, in mice.
Exactly that phenomenon.
That's spot on the other theother thing, of course, is that
if you took something like fruitjuice, where you've taken the
(42:00):
fiber out of it, right? Youimagine eating the number of
apples that would be required toget a liter of apple juice,
which you can swallow in acouple of minutes,
you would burst because of thefiber. Right? In the book, it's
it's four apples per glass. Ofour industries, who's going to
(42:20):
be able to eat four applesanyway? Yeah, who's going to be
able to eat for four apples thatare sitting but we could easily
drink two glasses of right? Andthe difference is the fiber,
everything else is the same. Imean, the book, eat like the
animals. And the big takeawayfor me again is is surround
yourself with whole foods. Focuson that, on that protein. Make
(42:43):
sure you're getting enoughfiber, and let your body do the
rest. Our guests, Davidrobinheimer and Steven Simpson,
both professors. Thank you guysso much for your time. They ask
you two last questions. I knowyour time is valuable, but one
last question, two questions,one, where can people follow up
with you? Aside from buying thebook. Link to where to buy the
book in the show notes.
(43:04):
Follow up us on Twitter. You canfollow us on Twitter at eat like
the animals. And actually, ifyou if you've searched for us on
the internet, you'll find thelink to the Charles Perkins
Center here at the University ofSydney.
And we're really delighted toengage with people. We're trying
(43:24):
here to change the way that weconceive of nutrition and the
food system, and really,ultimately, to put it, put it
right, yeah, and taking ourinspiration from
the process that is evolved thesolution to the most complex
challenge that faces biology,which is the challenge of
(43:46):
nutrition, natural selection.
Evolution has solved thatinnumerable times in animals
across the history of theevolution of life, and we've got
a lot to learn, to learn and alot to listen to from them. And
as we said at the beginning,it's actually a good news story.
It's not a bad news story,because we now understand
clearly what is driving theprocess of the epidemic of poor
(44:11):
health, poor nutrition relatedhealth. And if you understand
that process, then it's mucheasier to deal with it in a
constructive way, both at theindividual level, as we were
saying, in terms of choosingwhich foods you surround
yourself with, and ultimately,at the societal level, of
changing the broader foodenvironment to help individuals
to do that. Yeah, I appreciateyou guys allowing me to be,
(44:34):
again, so reductive in myassumptions about your research,
but I think you're absolutelyright. Like it's not really,
it's not a bio hack. It's a biounhack. We're really just
allowing our body to adapt, toadapt back to what it's supposed
to be, as opposed to what we'vewe've sort of fixed it in one
last question for both of youand I, because I ask it to
everybody, what is one thingthat we can all start doing
(44:55):
today that will make our lives awhole lot better? Yeah.
To reduce the amount of highlyprocessed industrial foods that
we buy and take into our homes.
Very simple step to sum upagain, shop with your mind and
eat with your appetite, spoton, and eat like the animals. I
(45:17):
think you should read it,because it's a remarkable
detective story, apart fromanything else, a scientific
detective story. So if you wantto understand how your body
works, how it's evolved, and howto listen to it,
(45:39):
then I eat like the animals linkagain, where to where to buy
that in the show notestranslated into what 10
languages now? So this is aphenomenon.
Well, yeah, I think it's 10 or11 at the moment. Yeah, it's
been a, it's been a great ride.
It's, it's 35 years of hardscience. But we tell that story
professors, very different onein the sense that we've taken
(46:03):
our inspiration and our insightand an approach to the human
nutrition crisis from thenatural world, and that is what
has enabled us to see things insuch a different way, as we say
in the book, sometimes to seethings clearly. It's an odd
truth that you first have tolook away, and that's what we've
done. We've spent many decadeslooking away at other species
(46:25):
and then turning back to ourown, and that's what that's the
story we tell, indeed, like theanimals, there you have it.
Professors, thank you guys somuch for your time today. We
really appreciate it. That's apleasure. Gib, good speaking
with you. That's it for our showtoday. If you like the show,
please rate, comment andsubscribe on Apple podcast,
Spotify, Stitcher, wherever youget your podcast, it helps us
(46:47):
out a lot. You can also linkwith us on social media,
facebook.com, John Tesh, at JohnTesh. On Instagram, you can also
call me. I'm Gib Gerard onTwitter, at Gib Gerard on
Instagram, at Gib Gerard. Andfacebook.com/gib,
Gerard. I try to respond toeverything that you guys say or
post about the show, becauseultimately, I do the show for
you guys. So thank you so muchfor listening.
(47:13):
You.
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