June 9, 2025 • 47 mins
How Do We Find Joy After Death? A Conversation on Grief, Parenting, and the Return of Happiness
This profound episode of Lift One Self with host NatNat welcomes grief advocate Marie Alessi, who faced unimaginable heartbreak when her husband suddenly passed in 2018 while she was raising two young sons.
Rather than accepting grief as a life sentence or a hole that never heals, Marie shares a radical yet tender perspective: grief is a visitor — sometimes present, sometimes gone, always allowed, never permanent. "Sometimes Joy goes to the markets when Grief visits," she shares, "and sometimes they sit together."
Through the lens of personal loss (including the death of her father at age 20), Marie opens up about raising emotionally safe children, creating rituals of remembrance, and allowing herself — and her family — to feel everything without shutting joy out.
From laughter at funerals to annual family celebrations honouring her late husband, Marie challenges cultural taboos around grief. She reminds us that healing is possible and joy is not disrespectful to love.
If you're ready to reframe your relationship to grief and soften into joy without guilt, this episode offers profound wisdom.
→ Visit Marie at mariealessi.com to explore her books, TEDx talk, and personal coaching.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
NatNat (00:00):
Welcome to the Lift One Self podcast, where we break
mental health stigmas throughconversations.
I'm your host, nat Nat, and wedive into topics about trauma
and how it impacts the nervoussystem.
Yet we don't just leave youthere.
We share insights and tools ofself-care, meditation and growth
(00:21):
that help you be curious aboutyour own biology.
Your presence matters.
Please like and subscribe toour podcast.
Help our community grow.
Let's get into this.
Oh, and please remember to bekind to yourself.
Marie Alessi (00:36):
Welcome to the Lift One Self podcast.
I'm your host, nat Nat, andtoday I am delighted to have a
guest and we're going to talkabout the other side of grief,
where there can be some joy, inthat.
I know grief has a very heavy,dense connotation, energy around
it, Yet there's many that don'trealize there's a joyful part,
(01:01):
that you can allow yourself tofeel joy again, even though it
can be some work and it takesshifting some perspectives out
of the paradigm that you've onceknown all the time.
So I am in a real delightbecause many of you know I'm in
the season of grief right now,with Natalie transitioning a few
months ago, and I look forwardto this kind of conversation.
(01:24):
So with us is Marie Alisi, andshe is going to introduce
herself to myself and thelisteners and then we're going
to go and play in someconversation.
So, marie, could you introduceyourself please?
Speaker 3 (01:39):
First of all, natanat , I just want to say my heart
goes out to you and thank youfor having me in this time.
I think it's divine timing tosee you and I both.
I feel like we're both on thatsame wavelength.
You know, people connect at theperfect time.
So I'm an author, I'm a speaker, I'm a TEDx speaker, I'm a
grief advocate and I'm also acoach and a memorial manager.
(02:02):
So, in a nutshell, everything Ido is about bringing lightness
into grief.
I'm very, very honored to behere for this conversation today
.
Yeah.
Marie Alessi (02:11):
Before we dive into this, would you join me in
a mindful moment so we canground ourselves in our breath?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
I'm so looking forward to this.
Yes.
Marie Alessi (02:20):
And for the listeners as you always hear,
safety first.
Please don't close your eyes.
You need your visual if you'redriving, Yet anything else
you're able to follow in theprompts.
So, maria, I'll ask you to getcomfortable in your seating and,
if it's safe to do so, I'll askyou to gently close your eyes
(02:41):
and you're going to beginbreathing in and out through
your nose and you're going tobring your awareness to watching
your breath go in and out.
You're not going to try andcontrol your breath.
You're just going to be awareof its natural rhythm, allowing
(03:03):
it to guide you into your body.
There may be sensations orfeelings coming up.
That's okay, let them surface.
You're safe to feel.
(03:28):
You're safe to let go.
Surrender the need to resistand just be, be with your breath
, drop deeper into your body.
Now there may be some thoughtsor to-do lists that have popped
up, and that's the mind doingits thing.
Gently bring your awarenessback to your breath, creating
space between the awareness andthe thoughts and dropping deeper
(03:53):
into your body, being in thespace of being.
Again, more thoughts may havepopped up.
Gently bring your awareness backto your breath, beginning again
, creating even more spacebetween the awareness and the
(04:17):
thoughts and completely droppinginto the body, being in
presence, in your being, nowcoming back into your senses at
(04:44):
your own time and at your ownpace.
You're going to gently openyour eyes while still staying
with your breath.
How's your heart doing?
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Really fine.
I'm quite happy.
I'm going to give that up frontbecause we'll definitely talk
about this.
I do breath work on a dailybasis and I'll see a breath work
coach once a week, so it's sobeautiful.
Once you guide me into that,I'm instantly present and I love
it.
Oh, I've only started thisabout six weeks ago and it's
(05:15):
phenomenal, the changes thathave happened in my life.
Marie Alessi (05:18):
It's amazing yeah, that regulating of the nervous
system and really just honoringthe body instead of not just
being neck up, that you can goneck down and really integrate
that mind and body together andfeel the emotions makes such a
difference.
So I have to ask what broughtyou into the space of grief?
Speaker 3 (05:46):
As what brought you into the space of grief.
I first dropped into the spaceof grief when my dad passed away
when I was 20 and I had no ideahow to handle it, and then
really delved very, very deepinto that topic after my husband
passed very unexpectedly in2018.
So we are talking, like youknow, a 20 something year gap.
(06:07):
I don't want to do the mathright now, but it's been a very,
very different experiencelosing my dad and losing my
husband polar opposite actually,and I always feel that, through
losing my dad so early and notknowing how to deal with this,
with grief, with talking aboutit, with asking for help, with
allowing help in I call them thehidden gifts in adversity.
(06:33):
I often say it almost felt likea wedding present from my dad to
have such a present life withmy husband Rob, and even though
we only had 12 years where wewere married with my husband Rob
, and even though we only had 12years where we were married,
they were so present andconscious and very deliberate
and intentional and so full oflove, and that, to me, was also
(06:56):
where Rob and I had thispositive conversation about
three years prior to his passingvery theory conversation based
on a fatal accident thathappened that day and it hit
home for us because our kidswere so young and it was a young
dad who lost his life.
And when Rob and I had thisconversation we went what would
you do if that would happen tous?
You know, we both sort of endedwith this I would want you to
(07:18):
go the happiest life possiblefor you and the boys, because
that's what love is.
So that completely changed, youknow, like our whole outlook on
life and also being sointentional with everything, and
exactly that became my NorthStar when I received the news of
Rob's passing.
Marie Alessi (07:40):
So, you know, grief hits in such a shocking
way because the reality that youonce knew is no longer there
and we tend to want to grasp atwhat we had rather than accept
what's here now of the as is,and it takes some, you know,
navigating and processingthrough, yeah, through.
(08:02):
It sounds like you had a reallyintuitive pull of allowing
yourself to receive joy, to feeljoy.
So what did that look like inthe beginning for you?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
I don't think that this allowing myself came
naturally and very quickly to memyself came naturally and very
quickly to me.
However, the decision to makethis my destination was almost
instant.
So when I received that phonecall, I had a few seconds to
prepare to share those news withour young sons.
(08:38):
They were only 10 and 8 at thetime and I remember walking down
the stairs from my bedroom toour living room because I was in
my bedroom when I received thephone call from the sergeant
from the coroner's office andthe boys were waiting in the
living room in their martialarts uniform for me to take them
to have keto training.
And I walked downstairs and I'mlike there is no sugarcoating a
(09:00):
message like your dad justpassed away.
You cannot sugarcoat a messagelike that.
You pretty much have to say itout straight.
And for me, I remember when Iheld them and they were crying
and screaming that's what Iheard in my mind Rob's voice
saying I wanted to create thehappiest life possible for the
boys.
It was so bizarre being in thismoment of having all of that.
(09:22):
It was so surreal.
It's hard to explain asituation like that.
Yet this became a north star.
I had no idea how to get there,but I knew that was my
destination, so that was prettymuch within the first few
minutes of hearing the news yeah, what came to mind in that
incident was also you know youunderstood what it was to lose a
(09:46):
parent, because you said youlost your dad.
Marie Alessi (09:48):
Well, not lost, it's, he transitioned beforehand
.
I love that you say that, yeah.
Yeah, it's not a loss, it's atransition.
And also it's seeing that youwere meeting parts of your
younger self while holding yourown children, and parts that
didn't have language orexperience.
(10:09):
Could you relate to that orhave you reflected on that?
Speaker 3 (10:14):
I never thought about it that way and I love that you
say that, but I do rememberthinking they aren't even
combined as old as I was when Ilost my dad Losing a dad and I'm
saying lost now too.
But yeah, I'm absolutely withyou with that the transition.
However, saying that it didfeel like a loss when my dad
(10:34):
went, I completely had adifferent perspective for that
when Rob passed away.
So having that experience atthe age of 10 and 8 is so
different to having thatexperience at the age of 20.
And you know you are an adultat 20 but you're not.
You know you're still, you'reofficially an adult but you
(10:55):
still really want and need yourdad around.
And I had such closerelationship with my dad and I
know the boys did that too.
They had.
They were so close and beingboys in particular as well, you
know they were really reallyclose to Rob and, yeah, having
to go through that experience atsuch a young age, I just knew
that I wanted their experienceto be vastly different to the
(11:18):
one that I had.
I didn't want them to feel lost, because that's what I felt.
I felt really lost when my dadpassed away and I didn't want
that for the boys, I made surethat I was as present as I
possibly could be, as well asbeing present to my own grief,
which completely took a backseatfor the first couple of weeks
where I was in organizing mode.
You know, being there for theboys, being present for them
(11:39):
like watching them, like a hawk,then flying across the country
because we passed away on abusiness trip, so we were five
hours' flight away and we flewacross the country to identify
his body and all of that wassuch a bonding and deep
experience for us.
Coming home together to anempty house, all these things.
It was just a very, veryintense journey organising the
(12:02):
funeral and there was abreakdown moment when all of
that was over.
You know all these tick boxesyou need to go through in the
first two to three weeks andRob's celebration of life was on
a Wednesday and in the sameweek, on a Sunday, I walked Jed,
(12:23):
my younger son, down the aisleto his first Holy Communion on
my own.
But that all happened in thesame week.
On a Sunday, I walked Jed, myyounger son, down the aisle to
his first Holy Communion on myown.
That all happened in the sameweek and the emotional waves and
different layers of emotionsthat I went through in those
weeks and probably my boys too,not just myself were quite
intense.
There were a lot of clashesfrom an emotional level.
(12:45):
You know that Holy Communionwas supposed to be a celebration
of joy and you know and Rob wassupposed to be there and his
celebration of life.
There were all these emotionsthat we talked about very, very
briefly.
Before we went live on camerahere, so much happened at that.
Before we went live on camerahere, so much happened at that.
I did not expect my husband'scelebration of life to be so
(13:09):
full of joy and fun and peoplelaughing and sharing stories
about him and I'm like, oh, youknow, my heart was wide open.
This couldn't have been in anybetter way, because that's what
I felt was really honouring whohe was.
And I had this moment where Ithought Rob would really love
this.
You know how people are allbeing together and sharing all
(13:31):
these fun stories and plentyabout who he was as a person and
what their connection was tohim.
So it definitely left a massiveimpression on the people that
were there.
There were about 500 people ina midweek funeral.
You know it was amazing, yeah.
Marie Alessi (13:50):
I want to go into the perspective of parents and
children.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Yeah.
Marie Alessi (13:56):
How was it for you to hold space for all those big
emotions for your boys?
Speaker 3 (14:05):
There was I want to call it a sort of knowing from
my own experience the depth thatyou can go to, the depth that
you could potentially fall into.
So I instinctively just heldthis space for them, not wanting
them to fall that deep, andunderstanding and acknowledging,
(14:28):
acknowledging their emotions isso big from a parenting
perspective, because we tend towant to fix things.
As parents, we tend to want tomake them feel better, we want
to, you know, keep them safefrom harm and from hurt and all
of that.
And there is this moment whereyou just need to acknowledge
(14:51):
that it freaking, hurts and itgoes steep and it does feel like
a big loss to them, because atthat age I don't think they were
really ready to understand thattransitioning versus loss,
because I didn't and I was 21when my dad passed away, but I
had quite a lengthy, very deepspiritual journey which they
(15:12):
hadn't been through yet.
So I did my utmost best tobring all of that together in
this space that I held for them,acknowledging, sharing,
teaching them and holding spacefor everything that came up.
It was big, big doesn't evencut it, it was enormous, yeah,
(15:33):
yeah it's big emotions, and youknow when I say the.
Marie Alessi (15:40):
You know the highest spiritual practice I
think you can have in thisjourney is being a parent and
seeing the reflection that yourchildren are showing about you,
because you can learn so muchfrom looking through them, about
you, because you can learn somuch from looking through them,
and I think the biggest thingthat we're not taught as parents
, is the most painful, iswitnessing the pain in our
(16:00):
children and there's nothing youcan do about it.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
It's the deepest pain you can ever experience.
I feel that watching my boys,in particular my younger son, I
think he really took it thehardest.
Watching him in pain was a waydeeper pain than my own, because
(16:24):
it's a pain that you cannot fix.
This there's no fixing it,there is just going through it
with him.
There's just holding space,there's just holding him and
crying with him or letting himcry.
There is nothing that you cando to fix this pain and it's not
there to be fixed, it's to befelt, it's to walk through and
it's to be nurtured.
And it's like a physical wound.
(16:47):
You have to give it time, youhave to air it out, you have to
make sure that it doesn't getinfected, you have to make sure
that you actually allow it toheal.
And I think we're right on thetopic here, because that's
exactly where I feel thatsociety goes wrong.
We treat emotional pain completeopposite, very often, to
(17:09):
physical pain.
We almost put salt in thewounds.
We're like it has to hurt andit has to and it cannot heal.
And I don't believe that.
I feel that you can heal grief,yet we have not learned how to
do that.
We are under this impressionthat grief will last forever.
That grief will stay with youforever.
People are using language likethere'll always be a hole in my
heart.
(17:29):
Everything is like all pain,loss.
You know, and you and I we havea different language.
You know we talk abouttransitioning and healing and
holding space for all theemotions, and I much prefer to
say there'll always be a spacein my heart for Rob.
I don't talk about a hole in myheart because I don't have that
and I don't feel that's theright language for me.
So I have really learned toreframe things, to use different
(17:55):
language, use more nurturing inmy eyes, more accurate language
and offer people the same.
I'm not a big fan of mycondolences.
I feel personally, to me thereis no more empty sentence when
it comes to the space of grief.
I prefer things like you knowI'm with you or I'm here for you
(18:16):
, or my heart goes out to you,whatever it takes, whatever
feels right in the moment.
But my condolences is almostlike pushing the person away and
closing the door.
It's not opening a door toexchanging emotions.
Holding space, sitting in aspace together.
It's almost like I've done mypart and that's it.
(18:36):
That's what it feels like to me.
Everybody's different.
I have had conversations withpeople who said actually it
feels good to me when people saythat I never had that feeling.
I remember being said to mehundreds of times when my dad
passed away and after the 10thtime I was so empty and I still
had to endure another.
I don't know how many hundredsof people in that condolences
(18:57):
line who said the same thing tome over and over and I felt I
don't want that for my children.
I said no to a condolences lineat Rob's celebration of life.
Marie Alessi (19:08):
So you mentioned that you had the celebration of
life for Rob and then thatSunday there was that first
communion.
So my question is what did thetussle with God look like?
Speaker 3 (19:24):
That's a really huge question for me because I am
looking at things more from aspiritual rather than a
religious point of view.
So God is a name that I don'tuse very often, although I have
very deep spiritual beliefs.
And for me I had a very deepspiritual epiphany only a couple
(19:46):
of weeks after Rob passed awaynot before the Holy Communion, I
have to admit, but I had thisvery deep spiritual epiphany
that Rob and I had a soulcontract and that was part of it
.
We chose that from a spirituallevel, from a soul level.
Rob and I chose that.
When I walked down the aislewith Jed that Sunday, I felt a
(20:11):
hint of emptiness, a hint of heshould be there with us and I
could feel all eyes on us.
Because we live in a smallcountry town, everybody knew
that rob had died and the worstpart for me, in a way, was that
we were seated in the last rowand I'm not sure if they wanted
to make it easier for us so wecould hide away, you know which,
(20:34):
which did happen afterwards.
I was glad that we're not.
You know everybody looking atus and we're sitting in the
front.
So with my surname, alessi theyusually do that alphabetically,
we were usually always seatedin the first row because of our
surname.
We were in the last row and I'mabsolutely certain if I asked
them because it was too much onmy mind that that was deliberate
.
So we you know.
However, what happened throughthat.
(20:55):
What probably nobody thoughtabout was that it made it the
longest walk possible, and itwas hard.
I had tears coming down.
I was really trying to keep ittogether for Jed.
I wanted to make it a joyfulmoment for him and he is such an
empath.
He was born that way, not justthrough Rob's passing.
(21:16):
He was born that way.
So he kept checking on me andI'm like you shouldn't be
checking on me, I should bechecking on you.
You know, there was this momentof deep connection with Jed as
we were walking down that aislethat really long aisle, and all
eyes on us felt reallyuncomfortable.
Long aisle and all eyes on usfelt really uncomfortable.
I could feel their empathy andthat felt, in a way, good, but I
(21:38):
could also feel the sympathyand that did not feel good at
all.
So there were so many differentemotions in that walking down
the aisle that it wasn'tactually so much about what he
was actually supposed to beabout.
It was more about how can I getthrough this and how can I keep
him safe, which is a shame,because that's not what he was
(21:58):
supposed to be about that day.
Marie Alessi (21:59):
Yeah, yeah, and it was honest.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Yeah.
Marie Alessi (22:06):
You allowed yourself to feel and not be in
protective mode.
Yeah, but also, you know, showyour son what it is to be human,
not always just have this maskof.
Okay, we're joyful and it's allabout because they feel
energetically.
Yeah, yeah, kudos on you, thankyou, you really modeled what
(22:31):
vulnerability was?
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Yeah, thank you.
I was so grateful I had rob'sbest mate was there as his uh
godfather, and they held acelebration for jed afterwards.
Um, I was so glad because I didnot feel ready to have anybody
in our house.
Our house, as soon as robpassed away, became sacred space
and it took a long time toallow anybody back in.
(22:54):
So, yeah, that was big for me.
I was so grateful for them tobe there, like literally be
there for us in such a beautifulway.
Marie Alessi (23:06):
So there's a big aversion in society to talk
about grief and I'm one that Iam like.
I want to engage people to talkabout grief.
I've one that I am like I wantto engage people to talk about
grief.
I've been suggested to be adeath doula because I hold such
beautiful space around it,because I see it in a different
way, that energy doesn't die, ittransforms, and we're just
(23:27):
really not having propercommunication and dialogues
around death, around what griefis, and really in a spiritual
aspect.
So when there's this loss, it'srecognizing well, that's your
human aspect that's holding onto the lack, that it's not able
to feel the bigger dimension ofour spiritual and our soul
(23:51):
spirit.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
I'm so glad to hear back when you say that it's so
beautiful.
Yeah, yeah, I'm just heregrinning.
Sorry, I just need to sharethis quickly.
I'm sitting here grinning atsuch a topic because this
morning so we have a baskethanging in our living room with
Rob's urn, so there's still someashes left.
We spread most of them where hewanted it to be and we kept
(24:14):
some because this is what myolder son requested and I said
we will only spread all of theashes when all three of us are
ready.
You know, there is no timeframeat all.
So seven years later, I stillhave some of his ashes hanging
there and this morning, twice Iwhack my head on it and it never
happens.
It's been hanging there foreverand I'm like what are you
trying to tell me?
I'm like it felt so cheeky.
(24:35):
And now that you're talkingabout them, I'm like now I know
why.
Because you're coming into this.
Of course you are, you know.
I just had to grin because itnever happens.
It hangs all the time and twiceI ran into it today.
Marie Alessi (24:47):
I'm like what is going on.
So how, if those that have suchan aversion for it, how would
you engage with them to befriendgrief and what can you share?
How it's taught you about love?
Speaker 3 (25:04):
yeah, oh, my goodness , um, I believe that people are
so avoiding that topic becausethey instantly fall into what
society teaches us about griefit's dark, it's heavy, it'll
stay with you forever, and theyfeel confronted with their own
(25:27):
mortality.
People don't like that, theydon't like to think about it,
they know it and we all knowthat sooner or later we'll all
be affected by grief.
Because that's the two thingswe all have in common we are
born and we die.
And people don't want to talkabout or think about the second
part.
You know, we talk about birth,we talk about life, but we don't
(25:48):
really like talking about deathbecause we are scared of the
pain.
We are scared of how we go whenwe go.
We're scared of the pain, weare scared of um how we go when
we go, we're scared of theuncertainty.
They're not knowing when it'sgoing to happen.
And that's why I feel it isjust such an important topic to
(26:09):
normalize, to say, like you know, it's part of life.
Why don't we?
I actually think that if wewere to talk about it more often
, then the fear would actuallysubside.
It would become so normal totalk about it.
And you know, I don't know ifyou have this experience or not,
but even though I am a griefadvocate, I talk about it all
(26:29):
the time when I go to a partyand I'm Marie the human, the
friend, not in my businesspersona, although to me it's
quite similar, to be honest,because I live and breathe it.
However, when I go to a partynot as in to come in as a
speaker or as an advocatethere's almost always the
(26:51):
question so what do you do?
That's just a normalconversational question and then
I have had so many differentvariations of how to explain
what I do without peopleinstantly dropping their energy
and going oh you know, I'm sosorry because eventually, when I
say what I do is, I was like,how did you get into that?
(27:11):
And then I tell them that myhusband passed away.
And then there is this drop andI'm like I don't want to be the
party poop, I don't want to bethe one who brings the, but I'm
not going to lie either aboutwhat I do.
You know, it's that that, to me, is a constant training ground
around.
How do I even address that,although I speak about it all
(27:32):
the time without stepping intocoaching mode, advocacy mode?
There needs to be a smoothertransition and, quite frankly, I
still have not found theperfect way to share that with
people.
It is really interesting, youknow, and yet when you do go
into the conversation, it doessmooth out after a while.
(27:54):
And yet I always feel like I'mthe one who has to do the
educational work, the advocacywork, the coaching work, the
trying to make them understandthat it is okay, that I'm okay,
that I'm in a good space, thatI'm happy, that I'm joyful, that
I'm loving my life and peoplejust tiptoe around you as in oh,
she's lost her husband.
And then women even become veryawkward around their husbands
(28:17):
and I'm like I talked to theirhusbands, completely normal,
before Rob passed away, and thenall of a sudden, it's not that
you become a threat to them, butyou know there's this oh, she's
now a single woman.
It changes the dynamic which Idon't like.
I want to still be talking toguys, just like I did before,
without having this.
Oh, you know, is she after myhusband now?
(28:38):
Not even the husbands ingeneral, but you know, you get
back into this single mode.
I'm like, oh, thatovercomplicates everything.
I just want to be able to talkto people because they're people
, not because they're women ormen or because I have to think
about it differently.
Marie Alessi (28:51):
you know that element comes into it as well
and it's not often talked about.
Thanks for bringing that up,because I'm sure there's a lot
of people that like finallysomebody's giving voice to what
that feels like and how I'mbeing analyzed and received and,
you know, in the spaces andeverything else, because we're
feeling bodies that think ournervous systems.
(29:13):
We feel these vibrations.
It's not just all like, some ofit is in our heads because of
our own way that we'veexperienced.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Marie Alessi (29:24):
Yet there are times where you can feel that
you're being looked at andthere's insecurity and there's,
you know, an edge to it.
Yeah, I want to ask, ask youknow you mentioned with your
sons and for the ashes and itwasn't going to be spread until
all of you were ready.
What has that journey look liketo all of you guys moving
(29:49):
forward?
Speaker 3 (29:51):
in general.
Are you talking about um, aboutthe ashes in particular, or in
general?
Marie Alessi (29:55):
just in general, with the grief because you know
you could be ready for something, yet your children aren't ready
and and holding that space, oryou may not be ready and they
are, you know holding that as afamily dynamic and respecting
without dimming yourself, andthat those are a lot of ebb and
flows to you know, nobody getsleft behind.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Yeah, exactly that.
I love that.
Um, that's exactly it, though.
That's.
That already sums it up.
Nobody gets left behind.
What was my absolute focus inthis entire healing journey was
to always keep the conversationopen.
To always keep the conversationopen, and it's not always easy,
you know, because my sons werealready very, very different
(30:41):
before Rob passed away, so theyall breathed very differently
and sometimes I felt like it wasliterally switching, as in.
You know, at some stage mylittle one took it a lot harder
and wanted to talk about itevery night, mostly at night,
because that's when all theemotions came up, when he went
to bed and my older one didn'twant to talk about it.
(31:03):
Then it switched completely,like my little one shut down, my
older one wanted to talk aboutit all the time and I felt like
there was hardly ever a spacewhere both of them wanted to
talk, because to me, I thinkthere's nothing more beautiful
and healing and bringing thatlightness in opening up that
space, as when all three of ussit in that space of let's talk
(31:25):
about this, either by sharingmemories or by sharing about our
emotions, by asking questions.
And I deliberately chose Rob'spassing anniversary every year
to take some time off and goaway with him, not to mourn but
to celebrate Rob's life, tocelebrate our lives, to do
(31:45):
something special, toacknowledge that day, to
acknowledge Rob and I do that ona daily basis that I mention
him.
I talk about him all the time.
It's not that I force myself todo it so that I don't forget
their dad, or that I try not totalk about it so I don't offend
them.
I do it as it comes up,naturally.
I really just trust myintuition on that, or sometimes
just do it naturally.
I don't even have to tune in,I'll just do it.
(32:07):
But that day has really becomea day where I deliberately go
like okay, what do you want todo?
Let's do something, let's dosomething as a family, and quite
often it also brings upconversations about it, you know
, or we share memories aboutanother celebration day that we
had, or we look at photos orlike there's no agenda ever,
(32:28):
it's just this is a special dayfor us and I want to honour that
, and that has been a journeythat I really try to keep
ongoing, just to keep that spaceopen.
And I actually feel that latelyI'm talking about roughly the
last two to three to five monthsthere has been this wave of
(32:51):
healing coming into a family asin there was another layer that
was coming up that needed to beseen, acknowledged, sat with and
healed, and I feel that this isonly possible when you've done
a certain amount of healing.
Then there is this next layerand the next layer, and I can
(33:11):
understand, from a differentperspective, that some people
see that as grief never ends.
I share my perspective with you.
To me, I do family bereavementsessions and I had a beautiful
family with two girls they were10 and 12, and there was a loss
(33:34):
of two babies in that family andthe whole family came and sat
and we worked through this forlike four and a half hours.
It was really intense, reallybeautiful, and then I shared a
story with them because it cameto me as a story, something that
I have shared many times before, and the story was about three
girls in high school beingfriends and, you know, one
(33:54):
hanging out with one friend alot more all of a sudden, and
the other one got a bit more andmore left out and then she even
moved in with her, and it wasthis entire story of how, when
you have that triangle, onesometimes can get separated, but
then she comes back in and thenthe other one sort of drifts
away, and at the end I sharethat.
(34:16):
You know, one is joy and one isgrief, and there was this
decision that joy can live withme forever, but grief is a
visitor.
So my philosophy is always Itreat grief like a visitor.
She still comes in every nowand then after seven years,
close to seven years now, andwhen I have time I allow her to
(34:37):
come in, I sit with her.
Sometimes we talk, we crytogether, we laugh.
I mean, griff and I have beenso intimate.
We sat in a bathtub togetherand bawled our eyes out, you
know so her and I know eachother really, really well, and
she also knows that she doesn'tlive here anymore.
You know, she's moved out andJoy has moved in, and I'm always
(34:57):
telling this story becausesometimes Joy goes to the
markets when grief comes for avisit, and every now and then
the three of us sit together andthat's okay too.
But this is the sort ofperspective that feels so close
to my heart.
This is how I treat grief,because, yes, she comes and
visits and, no, I don't try toavoid her.
Every now and then, when I havetoo much on, I simply don't have
(35:18):
the time to sit with her, andthat's okay too.
You can come back later.
Let's make another time where Ican deliberately sit with you,
because obviously you've gotsomething that you want to chat
about, you know, so let's dothat, but right now it's not
possible.
So that's the sort ofphilosophy that I'm trying to
teach my children as well.
It's okay to cry, and it's alsookay to not want to cry in
(35:40):
certain situations with certainpeople, when you don't feel safe
enough to do that, to open up.
But teaching young boys to openup about their emotions is very,
very big and not easy, if I maysay so at times, and finding
the right people to support themas well that might be outside
of the family.
So I do whatever it takes.
(36:02):
Whatever it takes based on thesituation, based on my intuition
, because intuition has becomemy biggest companion in all of
that.
And, as of very lately, I'mgoing to share a little secret
with you also chat GPT.
I would have never, everthought to ask parenting
questions to chat GPT and I didit for the first time last week
and I was mind blown.
(36:23):
I'm like why didn't I think ofthat earlier?
It was so helpful.
And you know, at the end of theday, you still make it your
time and still trust yourintuition on what you share
about that, but it really givesyou very good prompts, I have to
admit.
Marie Alessi (36:36):
Different perspective that you may not
have seen, like I just showedyou about.
Oh, did you see how you'rewalking through your own grief,
as you know, with your fatherand having to hold space for
your own children that you maynot have even recognized?
And I really appreciate,because that's the same thing.
I, in my perspective, I'm likegrief will always be with you.
(37:00):
It's just something.
That is an experience.
It softens your heart.
It softens your experience.
The reason why people can getvery dense and constricted with
it is because, like you said,it's a visitor knocking on the
door and people think, well, I'mall enjoying.
(37:22):
Now Grief is starting to comein and you're going to make joy
go away.
Where it's like, if you shutthe door to grief and don't
allow it to come in at all,that's where you're going to get
the denseness, because you'reseparating parts of yourself.
Grief still has the information, the tenderness, what really
love feels like, feeling love onthe other side of love.
(37:45):
And as you said you said it sobeautifully no, just because we
feel emotions in the presentmoment, it doesn't mean that you
can process it and have it out.
Yet what a lot of people do isthey don't come back to it to
ask what were you trying tosignal to me?
Because grief is information,it's information and sometimes
(38:09):
it's just do you remember whatit felt like, the essence of
opening your heart in thisperspective?
And don't forget about that,because we can forget about it.
So it's different tenderness,but we get so hardened with
grief we think we have to behard and armor ourselves where
it's like soften, soften intothat vulnerability which is
(38:32):
warrior work, because you justwant to get rid of you when
there's pain and it's like wait,soften, see what the capacity
is, see how you can be held init but you know that whole, you
want to get rid of pain.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
It actually it's.
It's funny that he brought meto the birth moment.
You know, because rob said itso nicely, that it's a fear,
tension, pain scenario.
When we fear the pain, then wetense up and then the pain gets
worse.
You know, and I believe it'snot just a metaphor for birth,
it's also a metaphor for grief,which is again another
(39:06):
transition, you know.
So it's actually very similarand also different at the same
time.
Yeah, and when you think aboutthe fear, tension, pain scenario
, I actually, when I feel thatgrief coming on, I don't try to
get rid of it, I don't turn itup, I just allow it to just flow
out of me and it's almost likeit's like, you know, when you
(39:27):
have a full on downpour and theneverything feels so much
fresher and juicier and green,when we had like a massive
rainfall.
And I feel the exact same when Ihave a cry.
I actually want it to be a goodcry because I know it's going to
cleanse my soul, my body, myattention, my everything just
goes away.
And sometimes, when I don'thave that moment, you can't
(39:52):
force it either I might runaround with like a knot in my
throat for a couple of dayswhere I'm like I really need
that release because I can feelit there.
I can feel the sadness sittingthere.
It's something that I don'texpress because you know you
feel it in your throat, chakra.
It's like you need tocommunicate it, you need to cry
it out or talk about it and ifnothing else works, I sit down
(40:14):
and watch my girl.
It's my go-to movie when I needa big cry and it gets me every
single time when she comes downthe stairs, when her best friend
passes away and they're doingthe funeral for her.
It gets me every time andliterally whatever it takes.
If that's just a sad song or ifit's talking about it, I need
to allow that release becauseotherwise it actually starts
(40:34):
physically hurting.
Marie Alessi (40:36):
Yeah too, emote Grey's Anatomy is mine.
When I know that my body needsa good emoting and it's holding
on to a lot, it's like, okay,Grey's Anatomy will let that
nervous system surrender andjust emote.
I've learned in a long timeI'll take that on.
Yeah, yeah.
So it's finding those waysbecause we're in a society that
(40:57):
has a big aversion to tears, hasa big aversion of allowing the
melancholy and some sadness, andit's like, well, it's not
identifying with it yet.
This is a healthy way for thebody to release so many toxins
and stress that it deals withday to day.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
I love that you say that it's the not identifying
with it.
It's.
It's.
Yeah, allowing it to comethrough, yeah.
Marie Alessi (41:20):
Yeah.
So I want to ask you if youcould whisper something to
somebody that is right at theprecipice and at the beginning
of grief.
Is there a truth that you'dwant them to feel in their bones
so?
Speaker 3 (41:38):
one thing that comes up for me is love just wants you
to be happy, and I'm sayingthat because we are not short of
allowing ourselves to feel thedepth of it, to feel the
heaviness of it, to feel thesadness of it.
Yet what society doesn't teachus is that that is also okay to
be okay.
(41:59):
We always get into the it'sokay not to be okay.
Yeah, and it's okay to be okay.
That, to me, is such anallowing, such a softness, and I
often say to people I don'tfeel as much that we need help
with grief, I feel that we needa lot more help with allowing
(42:22):
ourselves to heal, allowing joyback in, allowing that all these
emotions can go hand in handand sit in the same circle with
each other.
It doesn't have to be one orthe other and, weirdly enough,
we do understand that beforegrief.
We do understand that.
You know, laughing, sadness,happiness, everything can happen
(42:45):
all at once and can happenmultiple times, going back and
forth or in the same time duringa day.
But once we enter that world of, or that phase of, grief,
that's when we got it announcedit's inappropriate to laugh at a
funeral.
You know things like that.
Yet there was so much joy andlaughter.
(43:05):
When I did the eulogy for Rob.
I went beyond like a normaleulogy, as you can imagine.
I just had this speech aboutlove and connection and there
were bloopers in there and jokesabout Rob and there was
laughter in the audience and Iloved it.
I feel we needed that.
All of us needed that, becausethere is such heaviness.
(43:27):
So if there's one message Iwant to share is that it's okay
to have all of these emotionscome in.
It's okay to laugh at a funeral.
Really, it's just beautifulactually when it happens.
Marie Alessi (43:39):
Yeah.
So I know many listeners noware like okay, where can I find
Marie?
So could you let the listenersknow where they can find you and
your offerings?
Speaker 3 (43:50):
Yeah, I'm pretty much on all the socials that you can
imagine, but the easiest waywould probably be to go to
mariealesicom, because you canfind, you know, all the socials
and connections where you wantto connect with me.
You can find all my books onthere, my TEDx talk, you know.
You can find a book, a chatwith Marie button, and I'm
really there.
It's me taking these calls andchatting with you.
(44:11):
So I think that's always thebest way to get started and have
a look around.
You can read a bit more aboutthe work that I offer, the
services that I offer, who I am,my background and it's all
there.
Marie Alessi (44:22):
I want to ask you could you leave an intention for
one of the listeners that islistening right now.
Whatever's coming up in yourheart, just give that intention
to that listener that'slistening.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
That might be such a simple one one, but that was the
first one that came up, so I gowith.
That is to reconsider next timeyou hear about somebody's
passing, if you go with theusual go-to the my condolences,
or if you maybe just be in themoment with them and trust your
heart, what's the right thing toactually say?
And people often say I don'tknow what to say.
(45:00):
That in itself is so muchbetter than my condolences,
because it's real, it's human,it's not a phrase, a learned
phrase, it's a complete human tohuman.
I don't know what to say, Ihave no words.
Can I give you a hug?
You know?
It's just being there, holdingspace, being in the moment.
That is something I feel we allneed to learn.
Marie Alessi (45:24):
Yeah, I want to thank you so much.
This has been such an enrichingconversation and it's near the
end of my day, so it's abeautiful way to end the day.
I want to thank you for doingthe alchemy in your life, taking
the impurity and turning itinto gold, yet not keeping that
gold only for yourself You'resharing it with others.
(45:46):
So I want to thank you, marie,and I want to thank Rob for
being in the space and yourfather also being in the space
to enrich and allow us to knowwhat living looks like.
So thank you, marie, for thewarrior work.
Speaker 3 (46:02):
Thank you so much for having me, Nat.
It was absolutely beautiful tosit in this space with you and
have that conversation.
Thank you.
Marie Alessi (46:09):
Please remember to be kind to yourself.
Thank you, hey.
You made it all the way here.
I appreciate you and your time.
If you found value in thisconversation, please share it
out.
If there was somebody thatpopped into your mind, take
action and share it out withthem it possibly may not be them
(46:31):
that will benefit.
NatNat (46:32):
It's that they know somebody that will benefit from
listening to this conversation.
So please take action and shareout the podcast.
Marie Alessi (46:41):
You can find us on social media, on Facebook,
Instagram and TikTok under LiftOne Self.
And if you want to inquireabout the work that I do and the
services that I provide topeople, come over on my website,
Come into a discovery call.
NatNat (46:59):
Liftoneselfcom.
Until next time, pleaseremember to be kind and gentle
with yourself.
You matter.
Welcome to the Lift One Self podcast, where we break
mental health stigmas throughconversations.
I'm your host, nat Nat, and wedive into topics about trauma
and how it impacts the nervoussystem.
Yet we don't just leave youthere.
We share insights and tools ofself-care, meditation and growth
(00:21):
that help you be curious aboutyour own biology.
Your presence matters.
Please like and subscribe toour podcast.
Help our community grow.
Let's get into this.
Oh, and please remember to bekind to yourself.
Marie Alessi (00:36):
Welcome to the Lift One Self podcast.
I'm your host, nat Nat, andtoday I am delighted to have a
guest and we're going to talkabout the other side of grief,
where there can be some joy, inthat.
I know grief has a very heavy,dense connotation, energy around
it, Yet there's many that don'trealize there's a joyful part,
(01:01):
that you can allow yourself tofeel joy again, even though it
can be some work and it takesshifting some perspectives out
of the paradigm that you've onceknown all the time.
So I am in a real delightbecause many of you know I'm in
the season of grief right now,with Natalie transitioning a few
months ago, and I look forwardto this kind of conversation.
(01:24):
So with us is Marie Alisi, andshe is going to introduce
herself to myself and thelisteners and then we're going
to go and play in someconversation.
So, marie, could you introduceyourself please?
Speaker 3 (01:39):
First of all, natanat , I just want to say my heart
goes out to you and thank youfor having me in this time.
I think it's divine timing tosee you and I both.
I feel like we're both on thatsame wavelength.
You know, people connect at theperfect time.
So I'm an author, I'm a speaker, I'm a TEDx speaker, I'm a
grief advocate and I'm also acoach and a memorial manager.
(02:02):
So, in a nutshell, everything Ido is about bringing lightness
into grief.
I'm very, very honored to behere for this conversation today
.
Yeah.
Marie Alessi (02:11):
Before we dive into this, would you join me in
a mindful moment so we canground ourselves in our breath?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
I'm so looking forward to this.
Yes.
Marie Alessi (02:20):
And for the listeners as you always hear,
safety first.
Please don't close your eyes.
You need your visual if you'redriving, Yet anything else
you're able to follow in theprompts.
So, maria, I'll ask you to getcomfortable in your seating and,
if it's safe to do so, I'll askyou to gently close your eyes
(02:41):
and you're going to beginbreathing in and out through
your nose and you're going tobring your awareness to watching
your breath go in and out.
You're not going to try andcontrol your breath.
You're just going to be awareof its natural rhythm, allowing
(03:03):
it to guide you into your body.
There may be sensations orfeelings coming up.
That's okay, let them surface.
You're safe to feel.
(03:28):
You're safe to let go.
Surrender the need to resistand just be, be with your breath
, drop deeper into your body.
Now there may be some thoughtsor to-do lists that have popped
up, and that's the mind doingits thing.
Gently bring your awarenessback to your breath, creating
space between the awareness andthe thoughts and dropping deeper
(03:53):
into your body, being in thespace of being.
Again, more thoughts may havepopped up.
Gently bring your awareness backto your breath, beginning again
, creating even more spacebetween the awareness and the
(04:17):
thoughts and completely droppinginto the body, being in
presence, in your being, nowcoming back into your senses at
(04:44):
your own time and at your ownpace.
You're going to gently openyour eyes while still staying
with your breath.
How's your heart doing?
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Really fine.
I'm quite happy.
I'm going to give that up frontbecause we'll definitely talk
about this.
I do breath work on a dailybasis and I'll see a breath work
coach once a week, so it's sobeautiful.
Once you guide me into that,I'm instantly present and I love
it.
Oh, I've only started thisabout six weeks ago and it's
(05:15):
phenomenal, the changes thathave happened in my life.
Marie Alessi (05:18):
It's amazing yeah, that regulating of the nervous
system and really just honoringthe body instead of not just
being neck up, that you can goneck down and really integrate
that mind and body together andfeel the emotions makes such a
difference.
So I have to ask what broughtyou into the space of grief?
Speaker 3 (05:46):
As what brought you into the space of grief.
I first dropped into the spaceof grief when my dad passed away
when I was 20 and I had no ideahow to handle it, and then
really delved very, very deepinto that topic after my husband
passed very unexpectedly in2018.
So we are talking, like youknow, a 20 something year gap.
(06:07):
I don't want to do the mathright now, but it's been a very,
very different experiencelosing my dad and losing my
husband polar opposite actually,and I always feel that, through
losing my dad so early and notknowing how to deal with this,
with grief, with talking aboutit, with asking for help, with
allowing help in I call them thehidden gifts in adversity.
(06:33):
I often say it almost felt likea wedding present from my dad to
have such a present life withmy husband Rob, and even though
we only had 12 years where wewere married with my husband Rob
, and even though we only had 12years where we were married,
they were so present andconscious and very deliberate
and intentional and so full oflove, and that, to me, was also
(06:56):
where Rob and I had thispositive conversation about
three years prior to his passingvery theory conversation based
on a fatal accident thathappened that day and it hit
home for us because our kidswere so young and it was a young
dad who lost his life.
And when Rob and I had thisconversation we went what would
you do if that would happen tous?
You know, we both sort of endedwith this I would want you to
(07:18):
go the happiest life possiblefor you and the boys, because
that's what love is.
So that completely changed, youknow, like our whole outlook on
life and also being sointentional with everything, and
exactly that became my NorthStar when I received the news of
Rob's passing.
Marie Alessi (07:40):
So, you know, grief hits in such a shocking
way because the reality that youonce knew is no longer there
and we tend to want to grasp atwhat we had rather than accept
what's here now of the as is,and it takes some, you know,
navigating and processingthrough, yeah, through.
(08:02):
It sounds like you had a reallyintuitive pull of allowing
yourself to receive joy, to feeljoy.
So what did that look like inthe beginning for you?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
I don't think that this allowing myself came
naturally and very quickly to memyself came naturally and very
quickly to me.
However, the decision to makethis my destination was almost
instant.
So when I received that phonecall, I had a few seconds to
prepare to share those news withour young sons.
(08:38):
They were only 10 and 8 at thetime and I remember walking down
the stairs from my bedroom toour living room because I was in
my bedroom when I received thephone call from the sergeant
from the coroner's office andthe boys were waiting in the
living room in their martialarts uniform for me to take them
to have keto training.
And I walked downstairs and I'mlike there is no sugarcoating a
(09:00):
message like your dad justpassed away.
You cannot sugarcoat a messagelike that.
You pretty much have to say itout straight.
And for me, I remember when Iheld them and they were crying
and screaming that's what Iheard in my mind Rob's voice
saying I wanted to create thehappiest life possible for the
boys.
It was so bizarre being in thismoment of having all of that.
(09:22):
It was so surreal.
It's hard to explain asituation like that.
Yet this became a north star.
I had no idea how to get there,but I knew that was my
destination, so that was prettymuch within the first few
minutes of hearing the news yeah, what came to mind in that
incident was also you know youunderstood what it was to lose a
(09:46):
parent, because you said youlost your dad.
Marie Alessi (09:48):
Well, not lost, it's, he transitioned beforehand
.
I love that you say that, yeah.
Yeah, it's not a loss, it's atransition.
And also it's seeing that youwere meeting parts of your
younger self while holding yourown children, and parts that
didn't have language orexperience.
(10:09):
Could you relate to that orhave you reflected on that?
Speaker 3 (10:14):
I never thought about it that way and I love that you
say that, but I do rememberthinking they aren't even
combined as old as I was when Ilost my dad Losing a dad and I'm
saying lost now too.
But yeah, I'm absolutely withyou with that the transition.
However, saying that it didfeel like a loss when my dad
(10:34):
went, I completely had adifferent perspective for that
when Rob passed away.
So having that experience atthe age of 10 and 8 is so
different to having thatexperience at the age of 20.
And you know you are an adultat 20 but you're not.
You know you're still, you'reofficially an adult but you
(10:55):
still really want and need yourdad around.
And I had such closerelationship with my dad and I
know the boys did that too.
They had.
They were so close and beingboys in particular as well, you
know they were really reallyclose to Rob and, yeah, having
to go through that experience atsuch a young age, I just knew
that I wanted their experienceto be vastly different to the
(11:18):
one that I had.
I didn't want them to feel lost, because that's what I felt.
I felt really lost when my dadpassed away and I didn't want
that for the boys, I made surethat I was as present as I
possibly could be, as well asbeing present to my own grief,
which completely took a backseatfor the first couple of weeks
where I was in organizing mode.
You know, being there for theboys, being present for them
(11:39):
like watching them, like a hawk,then flying across the country
because we passed away on abusiness trip, so we were five
hours' flight away and we flewacross the country to identify
his body and all of that wassuch a bonding and deep
experience for us.
Coming home together to anempty house, all these things.
It was just a very, veryintense journey organising the
(12:02):
funeral and there was abreakdown moment when all of
that was over.
You know all these tick boxesyou need to go through in the
first two to three weeks andRob's celebration of life was on
a Wednesday and in the sameweek, on a Sunday, I walked Jed,
(12:23):
my younger son, down the aisleto his first Holy Communion on
my own.
But that all happened in thesame week.
On a Sunday, I walked Jed, myyounger son, down the aisle to
his first Holy Communion on myown.
That all happened in the sameweek and the emotional waves and
different layers of emotionsthat I went through in those
weeks and probably my boys too,not just myself were quite
intense.
There were a lot of clashesfrom an emotional level.
(12:45):
You know that Holy Communionwas supposed to be a celebration
of joy and you know and Rob wassupposed to be there and his
celebration of life.
There were all these emotionsthat we talked about very, very
briefly.
Before we went live on camerahere, so much happened at that.
Before we went live on camerahere, so much happened at that.
I did not expect my husband'scelebration of life to be so
(13:09):
full of joy and fun and peoplelaughing and sharing stories
about him and I'm like, oh, youknow, my heart was wide open.
This couldn't have been in anybetter way, because that's what
I felt was really honouring whohe was.
And I had this moment where Ithought Rob would really love
this.
You know how people are allbeing together and sharing all
(13:31):
these fun stories and plentyabout who he was as a person and
what their connection was tohim.
So it definitely left a massiveimpression on the people that
were there.
There were about 500 people ina midweek funeral.
You know it was amazing, yeah.
Marie Alessi (13:50):
I want to go into the perspective of parents and
children.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Yeah.
Marie Alessi (13:56):
How was it for you to hold space for all those big
emotions for your boys?
Speaker 3 (14:05):
There was I want to call it a sort of knowing from
my own experience the depth thatyou can go to, the depth that
you could potentially fall into.
So I instinctively just heldthis space for them, not wanting
them to fall that deep, andunderstanding and acknowledging,
(14:28):
acknowledging their emotions isso big from a parenting
perspective, because we tend towant to fix things.
As parents, we tend to want tomake them feel better, we want
to, you know, keep them safefrom harm and from hurt and all
of that.
And there is this moment whereyou just need to acknowledge
(14:51):
that it freaking, hurts and itgoes steep and it does feel like
a big loss to them, because atthat age I don't think they were
really ready to understand thattransitioning versus loss,
because I didn't and I was 21when my dad passed away, but I
had quite a lengthy, very deepspiritual journey which they
(15:12):
hadn't been through yet.
So I did my utmost best tobring all of that together in
this space that I held for them,acknowledging, sharing,
teaching them and holding spacefor everything that came up.
It was big, big doesn't evencut it, it was enormous, yeah,
(15:33):
yeah it's big emotions, and youknow when I say the.
Marie Alessi (15:40):
You know the highest spiritual practice I
think you can have in thisjourney is being a parent and
seeing the reflection that yourchildren are showing about you,
because you can learn so muchfrom looking through them, about
you, because you can learn somuch from looking through them,
and I think the biggest thingthat we're not taught as parents
, is the most painful, iswitnessing the pain in our
(16:00):
children and there's nothing youcan do about it.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
It's the deepest pain you can ever experience.
I feel that watching my boys,in particular my younger son, I
think he really took it thehardest.
Watching him in pain was a waydeeper pain than my own, because
(16:24):
it's a pain that you cannot fix.
This there's no fixing it,there is just going through it
with him.
There's just holding space,there's just holding him and
crying with him or letting himcry.
There is nothing that you cando to fix this pain and it's not
there to be fixed, it's to befelt, it's to walk through and
it's to be nurtured.
And it's like a physical wound.
(16:47):
You have to give it time, youhave to air it out, you have to
make sure that it doesn't getinfected, you have to make sure
that you actually allow it toheal.
And I think we're right on thetopic here, because that's
exactly where I feel thatsociety goes wrong.
We treat emotional pain completeopposite, very often, to
(17:09):
physical pain.
We almost put salt in thewounds.
We're like it has to hurt andit has to and it cannot heal.
And I don't believe that.
I feel that you can heal grief,yet we have not learned how to
do that.
We are under this impressionthat grief will last forever.
That grief will stay with youforever.
People are using language likethere'll always be a hole in my
heart.
(17:29):
Everything is like all pain,loss.
You know, and you and I we havea different language.
You know we talk abouttransitioning and healing and
holding space for all theemotions, and I much prefer to
say there'll always be a spacein my heart for Rob.
I don't talk about a hole in myheart because I don't have that
and I don't feel that's theright language for me.
So I have really learned toreframe things, to use different
(17:55):
language, use more nurturing inmy eyes, more accurate language
and offer people the same.
I'm not a big fan of mycondolences.
I feel personally, to me thereis no more empty sentence when
it comes to the space of grief.
I prefer things like you knowI'm with you or I'm here for you
(18:16):
, or my heart goes out to you,whatever it takes, whatever
feels right in the moment.
But my condolences is almostlike pushing the person away and
closing the door.
It's not opening a door toexchanging emotions.
Holding space, sitting in aspace together.
It's almost like I've done mypart and that's it.
(18:36):
That's what it feels like to me.
Everybody's different.
I have had conversations withpeople who said actually it
feels good to me when people saythat I never had that feeling.
I remember being said to mehundreds of times when my dad
passed away and after the 10thtime I was so empty and I still
had to endure another.
I don't know how many hundredsof people in that condolences
(18:57):
line who said the same thing tome over and over and I felt I
don't want that for my children.
I said no to a condolences lineat Rob's celebration of life.
Marie Alessi (19:08):
So you mentioned that you had the celebration of
life for Rob and then thatSunday there was that first
communion.
So my question is what did thetussle with God look like?
Speaker 3 (19:24):
That's a really huge question for me because I am
looking at things more from aspiritual rather than a
religious point of view.
So God is a name that I don'tuse very often, although I have
very deep spiritual beliefs.
And for me I had a very deepspiritual epiphany only a couple
(19:46):
of weeks after Rob passed awaynot before the Holy Communion, I
have to admit, but I had thisvery deep spiritual epiphany
that Rob and I had a soulcontract and that was part of it
.
We chose that from a spirituallevel, from a soul level.
Rob and I chose that.
When I walked down the aislewith Jed that Sunday, I felt a
(20:11):
hint of emptiness, a hint of heshould be there with us and I
could feel all eyes on us.
Because we live in a smallcountry town, everybody knew
that rob had died and the worstpart for me, in a way, was that
we were seated in the last rowand I'm not sure if they wanted
to make it easier for us so wecould hide away, you know which,
(20:34):
which did happen afterwards.
I was glad that we're not.
You know everybody looking atus and we're sitting in the
front.
So with my surname, alessi theyusually do that alphabetically,
we were usually always seatedin the first row because of our
surname.
We were in the last row and I'mabsolutely certain if I asked
them because it was too much onmy mind that that was deliberate
.
So we you know.
However, what happened throughthat.
(20:55):
What probably nobody thoughtabout was that it made it the
longest walk possible, and itwas hard.
I had tears coming down.
I was really trying to keep ittogether for Jed.
I wanted to make it a joyfulmoment for him and he is such an
empath.
He was born that way, not justthrough Rob's passing.
(21:16):
He was born that way.
So he kept checking on me andI'm like you shouldn't be
checking on me, I should bechecking on you.
You know, there was this momentof deep connection with Jed as
we were walking down that aislethat really long aisle, and all
eyes on us felt reallyuncomfortable.
Long aisle and all eyes on usfelt really uncomfortable.
I could feel their empathy andthat felt, in a way, good, but I
(21:38):
could also feel the sympathyand that did not feel good at
all.
So there were so many differentemotions in that walking down
the aisle that it wasn'tactually so much about what he
was actually supposed to beabout.
It was more about how can I getthrough this and how can I keep
him safe, which is a shame,because that's not what he was
(21:58):
supposed to be about that day.
Marie Alessi (21:59):
Yeah, yeah, and it was honest.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Yeah.
Marie Alessi (22:06):
You allowed yourself to feel and not be in
protective mode.
Yeah, but also, you know, showyour son what it is to be human,
not always just have this maskof.
Okay, we're joyful and it's allabout because they feel
energetically.
Yeah, yeah, kudos on you, thankyou, you really modeled what
(22:31):
vulnerability was?
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Yeah, thank you.
I was so grateful I had rob'sbest mate was there as his uh
godfather, and they held acelebration for jed afterwards.
Um, I was so glad because I didnot feel ready to have anybody
in our house.
Our house, as soon as robpassed away, became sacred space
and it took a long time toallow anybody back in.
(22:54):
So, yeah, that was big for me.
I was so grateful for them tobe there, like literally be
there for us in such a beautifulway.
Marie Alessi (23:06):
So there's a big aversion in society to talk
about grief and I'm one that Iam like.
I want to engage people to talkabout grief.
I've one that I am like I wantto engage people to talk about
grief.
I've been suggested to be adeath doula because I hold such
beautiful space around it,because I see it in a different
way, that energy doesn't die, ittransforms, and we're just
(23:27):
really not having propercommunication and dialogues
around death, around what griefis, and really in a spiritual
aspect.
So when there's this loss, it'srecognizing well, that's your
human aspect that's holding onto the lack, that it's not able
to feel the bigger dimension ofour spiritual and our soul
(23:51):
spirit.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
I'm so glad to hear back when you say that it's so
beautiful.
Yeah, yeah, I'm just heregrinning.
Sorry, I just need to sharethis quickly.
I'm sitting here grinning atsuch a topic because this
morning so we have a baskethanging in our living room with
Rob's urn, so there's still someashes left.
We spread most of them where hewanted it to be and we kept
(24:14):
some because this is what myolder son requested and I said
we will only spread all of theashes when all three of us are
ready.
You know, there is no timeframeat all.
So seven years later, I stillhave some of his ashes hanging
there and this morning, twice Iwhack my head on it and it never
happens.
It's been hanging there foreverand I'm like what are you
trying to tell me?
I'm like it felt so cheeky.
(24:35):
And now that you're talkingabout them, I'm like now I know
why.
Because you're coming into this.
Of course you are, you know.
I just had to grin because itnever happens.
It hangs all the time and twiceI ran into it today.
Marie Alessi (24:47):
I'm like what is going on.
So how, if those that have suchan aversion for it, how would
you engage with them to befriendgrief and what can you share?
How it's taught you about love?
Speaker 3 (25:04):
yeah, oh, my goodness , um, I believe that people are
so avoiding that topic becausethey instantly fall into what
society teaches us about griefit's dark, it's heavy, it'll
stay with you forever, and theyfeel confronted with their own
(25:27):
mortality.
People don't like that, theydon't like to think about it,
they know it and we all knowthat sooner or later we'll all
be affected by grief.
Because that's the two thingswe all have in common we are
born and we die.
And people don't want to talkabout or think about the second
part.
You know, we talk about birth,we talk about life, but we don't
(25:48):
really like talking about deathbecause we are scared of the
pain.
We are scared of how we go whenwe go.
We're scared of the pain, weare scared of um how we go when
we go, we're scared of theuncertainty.
They're not knowing when it'sgoing to happen.
And that's why I feel it isjust such an important topic to
(26:09):
normalize, to say, like you know, it's part of life.
Why don't we?
I actually think that if wewere to talk about it more often
, then the fear would actuallysubside.
It would become so normal totalk about it.
And you know, I don't know ifyou have this experience or not,
but even though I am a griefadvocate, I talk about it all
(26:29):
the time when I go to a partyand I'm Marie the human, the
friend, not in my businesspersona, although to me it's
quite similar, to be honest,because I live and breathe it.
However, when I go to a partynot as in to come in as a
speaker or as an advocatethere's almost always the
(26:51):
question so what do you do?
That's just a normalconversational question and then
I have had so many differentvariations of how to explain
what I do without peopleinstantly dropping their energy
and going oh you know, I'm sosorry because eventually, when I
say what I do is, I was like,how did you get into that?
(27:11):
And then I tell them that myhusband passed away.
And then there is this drop andI'm like I don't want to be the
party poop, I don't want to bethe one who brings the, but I'm
not going to lie either aboutwhat I do.
You know, it's that that, to me, is a constant training ground
around.
How do I even address that,although I speak about it all
(27:32):
the time without stepping intocoaching mode, advocacy mode?
There needs to be a smoothertransition and, quite frankly, I
still have not found theperfect way to share that with
people.
It is really interesting, youknow, and yet when you do go
into the conversation, it doessmooth out after a while.
(27:54):
And yet I always feel like I'mthe one who has to do the
educational work, the advocacywork, the coaching work, the
trying to make them understandthat it is okay, that I'm okay,
that I'm in a good space, thatI'm happy, that I'm joyful, that
I'm loving my life and peoplejust tiptoe around you as in oh,
she's lost her husband.
And then women even become veryawkward around their husbands
(28:17):
and I'm like I talked to theirhusbands, completely normal,
before Rob passed away, and thenall of a sudden, it's not that
you become a threat to them, butyou know there's this oh, she's
now a single woman.
It changes the dynamic which Idon't like.
I want to still be talking toguys, just like I did before,
without having this.
Oh, you know, is she after myhusband now?
(28:38):
Not even the husbands ingeneral, but you know, you get
back into this single mode.
I'm like, oh, thatovercomplicates everything.
I just want to be able to talkto people because they're people
, not because they're women ormen or because I have to think
about it differently.
Marie Alessi (28:51):
you know that element comes into it as well
and it's not often talked about.
Thanks for bringing that up,because I'm sure there's a lot
of people that like finallysomebody's giving voice to what
that feels like and how I'mbeing analyzed and received and,
you know, in the spaces andeverything else, because we're
feeling bodies that think ournervous systems.
(29:13):
We feel these vibrations.
It's not just all like, some ofit is in our heads because of
our own way that we'veexperienced.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Marie Alessi (29:24):
Yet there are times where you can feel that
you're being looked at andthere's insecurity and there's,
you know, an edge to it.
Yeah, I want to ask, ask youknow you mentioned with your
sons and for the ashes and itwasn't going to be spread until
all of you were ready.
What has that journey look liketo all of you guys moving
(29:49):
forward?
Speaker 3 (29:51):
in general.
Are you talking about um, aboutthe ashes in particular, or in
general?
Marie Alessi (29:55):
just in general, with the grief because you know
you could be ready for something, yet your children aren't ready
and and holding that space, oryou may not be ready and they
are, you know holding that as afamily dynamic and respecting
without dimming yourself, andthat those are a lot of ebb and
flows to you know, nobody getsleft behind.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Yeah, exactly that.
I love that.
Um, that's exactly it, though.
That's.
That already sums it up.
Nobody gets left behind.
What was my absolute focus inthis entire healing journey was
to always keep the conversationopen.
To always keep the conversationopen, and it's not always easy,
you know, because my sons werealready very, very different
(30:41):
before Rob passed away, so theyall breathed very differently
and sometimes I felt like it wasliterally switching, as in.
You know, at some stage mylittle one took it a lot harder
and wanted to talk about itevery night, mostly at night,
because that's when all theemotions came up, when he went
to bed and my older one didn'twant to talk about it.
(31:03):
Then it switched completely,like my little one shut down, my
older one wanted to talk aboutit all the time and I felt like
there was hardly ever a spacewhere both of them wanted to
talk, because to me, I thinkthere's nothing more beautiful
and healing and bringing thatlightness in opening up that
space, as when all three of ussit in that space of let's talk
(31:25):
about this, either by sharingmemories or by sharing about our
emotions, by asking questions.
And I deliberately chose Rob'spassing anniversary every year
to take some time off and goaway with him, not to mourn but
to celebrate Rob's life, tocelebrate our lives, to do
(31:45):
something special, toacknowledge that day, to
acknowledge Rob and I do that ona daily basis that I mention
him.
I talk about him all the time.
It's not that I force myself todo it so that I don't forget
their dad, or that I try not totalk about it so I don't offend
them.
I do it as it comes up,naturally.
I really just trust myintuition on that, or sometimes
just do it naturally.
I don't even have to tune in,I'll just do it.
(32:07):
But that day has really becomea day where I deliberately go
like okay, what do you want todo?
Let's do something, let's dosomething as a family, and quite
often it also brings upconversations about it, you know
, or we share memories aboutanother celebration day that we
had, or we look at photos orlike there's no agenda ever,
(32:28):
it's just this is a special dayfor us and I want to honour that
, and that has been a journeythat I really try to keep
ongoing, just to keep that spaceopen.
And I actually feel that latelyI'm talking about roughly the
last two to three to five monthsthere has been this wave of
(32:51):
healing coming into a family asin there was another layer that
was coming up that needed to beseen, acknowledged, sat with and
healed, and I feel that this isonly possible when you've done
a certain amount of healing.
Then there is this next layerand the next layer, and I can
(33:11):
understand, from a differentperspective, that some people
see that as grief never ends.
I share my perspective with you.
To me, I do family bereavementsessions and I had a beautiful
family with two girls they were10 and 12, and there was a loss
(33:34):
of two babies in that family andthe whole family came and sat
and we worked through this forlike four and a half hours.
It was really intense, reallybeautiful, and then I shared a
story with them because it cameto me as a story, something that
I have shared many times before, and the story was about three
girls in high school beingfriends and, you know, one
(33:54):
hanging out with one friend alot more all of a sudden, and
the other one got a bit more andmore left out and then she even
moved in with her, and it wasthis entire story of how, when
you have that triangle, onesometimes can get separated, but
then she comes back in and thenthe other one sort of drifts
away, and at the end I sharethat.
(34:16):
You know, one is joy and one isgrief, and there was this
decision that joy can live withme forever, but grief is a
visitor.
So my philosophy is always Itreat grief like a visitor.
She still comes in every nowand then after seven years,
close to seven years now, andwhen I have time I allow her to
(34:37):
come in, I sit with her.
Sometimes we talk, we crytogether, we laugh.
I mean, griff and I have beenso intimate.
We sat in a bathtub togetherand bawled our eyes out, you
know so her and I know eachother really, really well, and
she also knows that she doesn'tlive here anymore.
You know, she's moved out andJoy has moved in, and I'm always
(34:57):
telling this story becausesometimes Joy goes to the
markets when grief comes for avisit, and every now and then
the three of us sit together andthat's okay too.
But this is the sort ofperspective that feels so close
to my heart.
This is how I treat grief,because, yes, she comes and
visits and, no, I don't try toavoid her.
Every now and then, when I havetoo much on, I simply don't have
(35:18):
the time to sit with her, andthat's okay too.
You can come back later.
Let's make another time where Ican deliberately sit with you,
because obviously you've gotsomething that you want to chat
about, you know, so let's dothat, but right now it's not
possible.
So that's the sort ofphilosophy that I'm trying to
teach my children as well.
It's okay to cry, and it's alsookay to not want to cry in
(35:40):
certain situations with certainpeople, when you don't feel safe
enough to do that, to open up.
But teaching young boys to openup about their emotions is very,
very big and not easy, if I maysay so at times, and finding
the right people to support themas well that might be outside
of the family.
So I do whatever it takes.
(36:02):
Whatever it takes based on thesituation, based on my intuition
, because intuition has becomemy biggest companion in all of
that.
And, as of very lately, I'mgoing to share a little secret
with you also chat GPT.
I would have never, everthought to ask parenting
questions to chat GPT and I didit for the first time last week
and I was mind blown.
(36:23):
I'm like why didn't I think ofthat earlier?
It was so helpful.
And you know, at the end of theday, you still make it your
time and still trust yourintuition on what you share
about that, but it really givesyou very good prompts, I have to
admit.
Marie Alessi (36:36):
Different perspective that you may not
have seen, like I just showedyou about.
Oh, did you see how you'rewalking through your own grief,
as you know, with your fatherand having to hold space for
your own children that you maynot have even recognized?
And I really appreciate,because that's the same thing.
I, in my perspective, I'm likegrief will always be with you.
(37:00):
It's just something.
That is an experience.
It softens your heart.
It softens your experience.
The reason why people can getvery dense and constricted with
it is because, like you said,it's a visitor knocking on the
door and people think, well, I'mall enjoying.
(37:22):
Now Grief is starting to comein and you're going to make joy
go away.
Where it's like, if you shutthe door to grief and don't
allow it to come in at all,that's where you're going to get
the denseness, because you'reseparating parts of yourself.
Grief still has the information, the tenderness, what really
love feels like, feeling love onthe other side of love.
(37:45):
And as you said you said it sobeautifully no, just because we
feel emotions in the presentmoment, it doesn't mean that you
can process it and have it out.
Yet what a lot of people do isthey don't come back to it to
ask what were you trying tosignal to me?
Because grief is information,it's information and sometimes
(38:09):
it's just do you remember whatit felt like, the essence of
opening your heart in thisperspective?
And don't forget about that,because we can forget about it.
So it's different tenderness,but we get so hardened with
grief we think we have to behard and armor ourselves where
it's like soften, soften intothat vulnerability which is
(38:32):
warrior work, because you justwant to get rid of you when
there's pain and it's like wait,soften, see what the capacity
is, see how you can be held init but you know that whole, you
want to get rid of pain.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
It actually it's.
It's funny that he brought meto the birth moment.
You know, because rob said itso nicely, that it's a fear,
tension, pain scenario.
When we fear the pain, then wetense up and then the pain gets
worse.
You know, and I believe it'snot just a metaphor for birth,
it's also a metaphor for grief,which is again another
(39:06):
transition, you know.
So it's actually very similarand also different at the same
time.
Yeah, and when you think aboutthe fear, tension, pain scenario
, I actually, when I feel thatgrief coming on, I don't try to
get rid of it, I don't turn itup, I just allow it to just flow
out of me and it's almost likeit's like, you know, when you
(39:27):
have a full on downpour and theneverything feels so much
fresher and juicier and green,when we had like a massive
rainfall.
And I feel the exact same when Ihave a cry.
I actually want it to be a goodcry because I know it's going to
cleanse my soul, my body, myattention, my everything just
goes away.
And sometimes, when I don'thave that moment, you can't
(39:52):
force it either I might runaround with like a knot in my
throat for a couple of dayswhere I'm like I really need
that release because I can feelit there.
I can feel the sadness sittingthere.
It's something that I don'texpress because you know you
feel it in your throat, chakra.
It's like you need tocommunicate it, you need to cry
it out or talk about it and ifnothing else works, I sit down
(40:14):
and watch my girl.
It's my go-to movie when I needa big cry and it gets me every
single time when she comes downthe stairs, when her best friend
passes away and they're doingthe funeral for her.
It gets me every time andliterally whatever it takes.
If that's just a sad song or ifit's talking about it, I need
to allow that release becauseotherwise it actually starts
(40:34):
physically hurting.
Marie Alessi (40:36):
Yeah too, emote Grey's Anatomy is mine.
When I know that my body needsa good emoting and it's holding
on to a lot, it's like, okay,Grey's Anatomy will let that
nervous system surrender andjust emote.
I've learned in a long timeI'll take that on.
Yeah, yeah.
So it's finding those waysbecause we're in a society that
(40:57):
has a big aversion to tears, hasa big aversion of allowing the
melancholy and some sadness, andit's like, well, it's not
identifying with it yet.
This is a healthy way for thebody to release so many toxins
and stress that it deals withday to day.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
I love that you say that it's the not identifying
with it.
It's.
It's.
Yeah, allowing it to comethrough, yeah.
Marie Alessi (41:20):
Yeah.
So I want to ask you if youcould whisper something to
somebody that is right at theprecipice and at the beginning
of grief.
Is there a truth that you'dwant them to feel in their bones
so?
Speaker 3 (41:38):
one thing that comes up for me is love just wants you
to be happy, and I'm sayingthat because we are not short of
allowing ourselves to feel thedepth of it, to feel the
heaviness of it, to feel thesadness of it.
Yet what society doesn't teachus is that that is also okay to
be okay.
(41:59):
We always get into the it'sokay not to be okay.
Yeah, and it's okay to be okay.
That, to me, is such anallowing, such a softness, and I
often say to people I don'tfeel as much that we need help
with grief, I feel that we needa lot more help with allowing
(42:22):
ourselves to heal, allowing joyback in, allowing that all these
emotions can go hand in handand sit in the same circle with
each other.
It doesn't have to be one orthe other and, weirdly enough,
we do understand that beforegrief.
We do understand that.
You know, laughing, sadness,happiness, everything can happen
(42:45):
all at once and can happenmultiple times, going back and
forth or in the same time duringa day.
But once we enter that world of, or that phase of, grief,
that's when we got it announcedit's inappropriate to laugh at a
funeral.
You know things like that.
Yet there was so much joy andlaughter.
(43:05):
When I did the eulogy for Rob.
I went beyond like a normaleulogy, as you can imagine.
I just had this speech aboutlove and connection and there
were bloopers in there and jokesabout Rob and there was
laughter in the audience and Iloved it.
I feel we needed that.
All of us needed that, becausethere is such heaviness.
(43:27):
So if there's one message Iwant to share is that it's okay
to have all of these emotionscome in.
It's okay to laugh at a funeral.
Really, it's just beautifulactually when it happens.
Marie Alessi (43:39):
Yeah.
So I know many listeners noware like okay, where can I find
Marie?
So could you let the listenersknow where they can find you and
your offerings?
Speaker 3 (43:50):
Yeah, I'm pretty much on all the socials that you can
imagine, but the easiest waywould probably be to go to
mariealesicom, because you canfind, you know, all the socials
and connections where you wantto connect with me.
You can find all my books onthere, my TEDx talk, you know.
You can find a book, a chatwith Marie button, and I'm
really there.
It's me taking these calls andchatting with you.
(44:11):
So I think that's always thebest way to get started and have
a look around.
You can read a bit more aboutthe work that I offer, the
services that I offer, who I am,my background and it's all
there.
Marie Alessi (44:22):
I want to ask you could you leave an intention for
one of the listeners that islistening right now.
Whatever's coming up in yourheart, just give that intention
to that listener that'slistening.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
That might be such a simple one one, but that was the
first one that came up, so I gowith.
That is to reconsider next timeyou hear about somebody's
passing, if you go with theusual go-to the my condolences,
or if you maybe just be in themoment with them and trust your
heart, what's the right thing toactually say?
And people often say I don'tknow what to say.
(45:00):
That in itself is so muchbetter than my condolences,
because it's real, it's human,it's not a phrase, a learned
phrase, it's a complete human tohuman.
I don't know what to say, Ihave no words.
Can I give you a hug?
You know?
It's just being there, holdingspace, being in the moment.
That is something I feel we allneed to learn.
Marie Alessi (45:24):
Yeah, I want to thank you so much.
This has been such an enrichingconversation and it's near the
end of my day, so it's abeautiful way to end the day.
I want to thank you for doingthe alchemy in your life, taking
the impurity and turning itinto gold, yet not keeping that
gold only for yourself You'resharing it with others.
(45:46):
So I want to thank you, marie,and I want to thank Rob for
being in the space and yourfather also being in the space
to enrich and allow us to knowwhat living looks like.
So thank you, marie, for thewarrior work.
Speaker 3 (46:02):
Thank you so much for having me, Nat.
It was absolutely beautiful tosit in this space with you and
have that conversation.
Thank you.
Marie Alessi (46:09):
Please remember to be kind to yourself.
Thank you, hey.
You made it all the way here.
I appreciate you and your time.
If you found value in thisconversation, please share it
out.
If there was somebody thatpopped into your mind, take
action and share it out withthem it possibly may not be them
(46:31):
that will benefit.
NatNat (46:32):
It's that they know somebody that will benefit from
listening to this conversation.
So please take action and shareout the podcast.
Marie Alessi (46:41):
You can find us on social media, on Facebook,
Instagram and TikTok under LiftOne Self.
And if you want to inquireabout the work that I do and the
services that I provide topeople, come over on my website,
Come into a discovery call.
NatNat (46:59):
Liftoneselfcom.
Until next time, pleaseremember to be kind and gentle
with yourself.
You matter.
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