November 10, 2025 • 48 mins
"What if the smartest part of your brain is the one that learned to hide?"
We start with a grounding practice to meet the body where it is, then sit with therapist and podcast host Malisa Hepner to unpack how the "golden child" mask, complex trauma, and perfectionism can quietly fracture a life—and how she pieced it back together.
In this conversation:
- Trauma as separation from self, not just "bad events"
- Why high achievers often carry hidden hypervigilance
- The spiritual awakening that felt like rewiring in real time
- Planning a suicide date—and the unexpected relief that created space to rebuild
- Launching Emotionally Unavailable podcast imperfectly on purpose
- Hospice lessons on presence when words fail
- The difference between being "healed" and living in ongoing healing
Malisa reframes tears as movement, not weakness. She offers hard-won language for the "fine while drowning" experience. And she proves that emotional availability isn't a badge—it's messy, daily practice.
Connect with Malisa Hepner here: empoweredwithmalisahepner.org
If you've ever felt like you had it together on paper but were quietly unraveling, this conversation offers tools, language, and a kinder map home.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (00:02):
Welcome to the Lift One Self Podcast.
I'm your host, Nat Nat, andtoday I have a wonderful guest.
And we were chatting andtalking before we started
recording.
I was like, wait, stop.
Because the stuff that we weretalking about was like really
good content that I think manyof you guys will benefit from
hearing that.
So, Melissa, before we start,could you give myself and the
(00:26):
listeners a little bit of abrief description of who you
are?
Malisa Hepner (00:30):
Hi, I'm Melissa Hettner.
Um, I want to make a funny jokeabout my astrological signs,
but I won't.
Um man, who am I?
I'm a therapist in Oklahoma.
I'm also a podcast host of ashow called Emotionally
Unavailable.
I'm actually starting anotherone too with someone I met
through podcasting calledUnquiet Soul that um will
(00:55):
highlight some of our otherparts of our personality too,
but be around the same theme.
Um, I have three children.
I'm married for I think Ifigured it out this morning.
I think it's been 13 years.
Um, second husband, and I hadthis like super crazy extensive
history of trauma in childhood.
(01:17):
And then because I was thegolden child, kind of thought
that it didn't have any impacton me.
And uh, because you know Iwasn't living my pain out loud
the way my siblings were, and sothen I spent my entire adult
life like dealing with theimpacts of that trauma without
even understanding that that'swhat was happening, and kind of
hit a really severe mentalhealth crisis.
(01:39):
Uh the pinnacle of that beingin October of 23.
And since then, have just beenmoving the pieces of my life and
growing and evolving.
Somewhere in there, I had aspiritual awakening, and that
was totally uh an amazingexperience.
Um, and now I just really workon expanding my consciousness
(02:00):
and kind of I would say like youknow, bringing forth the new
earth is my hope.
Like that I'm making an impacton people and just showing them
that imperfect is the way to goand and you can love yourself
exactly how you are.
So that's that's that's a verybrief version of who I am.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (02:21):
So before we dig in, because I have
so many places to dig in intothat, will you join me in a
mindful moment?
Absolutely.
So, as we were uh discussingbeforehand, we are both kind of
fatigued.
And uh, for me, the seasonschanging just does something
with my whole body.
I think there's a little bit ofapprehension that it knows the
(02:42):
cold is coming.
And I'm also navigating throughgrief because I'm gonna come up
to the one-year anniversary ofmy friend transitioning um from
cancer.
So uh because of the work thatI do, I can feel that in my
body.
And so I'm holding space forthat.
And as I always say, slow andsteady.
Uh, for the listeners, as youalways hear my safety spiel, uh,
(03:04):
safety first.
So if you need your visual,please don't close your eyes.
Yet the other prompts you'reable to follow with us.
So please take this mindfulmoment.
You know, many of us don't knowhow important it is to show up
for ourselves.
So I hope you'll join us.
So, Melissa, I'll ask you toget comfortable in your seating.
And when and if it's safe to doso, you're gonna gently close
(03:28):
your eyes or soften your gaze.
And you're gonna bring yourawareness to watching your
breath.
And if you can, you're gonnabegin breathing in and out
through your nose.
You're not gonna try andcontrol your breath, you're just
gonna be aware of it, allowingit to guide you into your body.
(03:49):
Now there may be somesensations or feelings coming
up, and that's okay.
You're safe to feel you're safeto let go.
Surrender the need to control,release the need to resist me.
(04:12):
Drop deeper into your body.
Now you may be tangled in somedumb thoughts and to-do list.
That's okay.
Gently bring your awarenessback to your breath.
And dropping deeper into thebody.
(04:39):
Allowing yourself to just bepresent.
And more thoughts may haveswooped in gently bringing your
awareness back to your breath.
Beginning again.
Completely surrendering intothe body.
(05:08):
Maybe noticing some eggs orpain or certain things that you
(05:40):
were aware of in your body.
Take one big deep breath in.
Gently exhale.
And at your own time and in atyour own pace, you're gonna
(06:00):
gently open your eyes whilestill staying with your breath.
How is your heart doing?
Malisa Hepner (06:06):
Good.
I feel so relaxed now.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (06:09):
Yeah, I uh started introducing these
about like over a year ago uhwith guests, because I was like,
instead of telling people tomeditate, let me bring them in
what this little check-in canbe, and also you know, do the
practices with the guest also sothat we can not just preach or
say what there is, it's actuallymodel it and see what that
(06:30):
actually looks like ininteractions.
Um, let me tell you, uh, thelittle perfective part or the
one that wants to hide didn'treally like to do that at first.
Oh, I bet.
Yeah, like, whoo, how are thesepeople gonna receive this?
How are they gonna be?
And it's like, you know, let'slet's model what that looks like
and what how we can show up umfor ourselves and do those
(06:53):
check-ins.
So where do I go?
Actually, let me start righthere.
What does trauma mean to you?
What how do you define trauma?
Malisa Hepner (07:05):
Well, um, I would say with my limited brain
capacity, um, trauma is just anyevent that has a lasting
impact.
I I don't think it has to looka certain way, but if it's
something that made you feelreally afraid in any way and
(07:28):
kind of caused a separationbetween you and your body, then
then it created that spacebetween you and and your true
self.
And so that's I mean, there'syou know, I really had complex
trauma where I lived an entirechildhood disconnected from
myself for protective reasons,uh, and and it was just wrought
(07:50):
with you know neglect and abuse.
But uh, I don't think it has tobe anything like that.
I think that people can see acar accident and be traumatized
by it and have real lastingimpact from that.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (08:08):
Yeah.
Um, how I describe it is, youknow, trauma isn't the actual
event.
It's how you felt and what youdid in process.
And then what your nervoussystem does is, as you said,
it's it creates this separationfrom self and it creates this
layer of protection.
And a lot of people don'trealize, like, oh, well,
(08:29):
sometimes they're like, well, Icould feel all kinds.
I can cry or get angry.
And it's like, okay, at leastyou're better than what other
people yet.
Did you ever have a space toprocess and make sense of what
those experiences were?
Because especially with complextrauma as a child, your little
brain that does not have livedexperience cannot take in the
(08:51):
magnitude of what you've beenable to experience.
And a lot of times, as yousaid, emotions didn't feel safe
to feel because the caretakersor the adults got activated with
that.
So it was very unsafepsychologically, emotionally,
spiritually.
So a lot of times people thinktrauma is only a physical thing,
(09:11):
where it's like, no, a lot ofit is like psychological or
emotional.
Yet it's that separation fromself and that journey is coming
back home into the body, intoself, which is a journey because
there's a lot of emotions thatcome up that you have told
yourself and told and yoursystem has said, no, those
(09:32):
aren't safe to feel.
So let's just keep burying themdown.
Yet, as we know, um, the bodykeeps score and emotions are
energy, they're messengerstrying to tell you stuff that a
lot of times sometimes we don'twant to hear it because our
perfectionist mask is coming upand everything else.
Malisa Hepner (09:52):
Yeah.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (09:54):
When you said that you know you were
the golden child and you didn'treally see that the trauma had
impacted you.
Was there hypervigilance, wasthere high achieving in your
behavior?
Malisa Hepner (10:09):
So much hypervigilance, so much
hypervigilance.
I I still don't recognize thatin my childhood per se, in the
hypervigilance.
I mean, I know it was there,but it's I recognize it more in
my adulthood, especially becauseum my first real intimate
(10:29):
relationship was in adulthood,and that's where so much of this
wounding came out for me in thefirst time insecurity, uh,
jealousy, just some real psychostuff.
Um, so that was definitelypresent because I was constantly
looking for reasons to attack,you know, and so in hindsight, I
(10:52):
can certainly see that.
I was so separated from myselfin childhood that it it's it is
hard to identify a lot of thingsfrom there.
High achieving, it's funny, mymy initial instinct is to say no
because of comparing myself toother people.
But if I was comparing myselfto my siblings, then yes.
(11:14):
And like I was the first one touh go to college, uh, one of
the only ones, one of a couple,and one of only a few to
graduate from high school.
So, like in the in this world,yes, I was high achieving, but I
graduated high school with likea 1.5 because my little trauma
brain was not there for it, youknow, and I was allowed, like
(11:36):
that was the one thing that likeas long as you're passing or
whatever, like fine, fine, fine.
So because I was allowed thespace to not have perfect
grades, I didn't have perfectgrades, but yeah, I I it was I
was what I really understand isI was super motivated by spite,
driven by spite, because we werein um a kinship foster care
(12:01):
situation.
So not only did I have reallytoxic family members that were
saying really bad stuff to usabout us, um, but also in you
know, I received a lot of reallygood education through the
foster system, but also a lot ofstatistics of what was likely
for me to become, if what, Idon't know.
(12:24):
But that you know, this is thisis a trajectory that children
who have experienced what you'reexperiencing can go on.
So I took, you know, what myfamily, specifically some aunts
who were just so determined toreally tear me down, and then
this education that I receivedand decided I will prove you all
(12:45):
wrong.
And that was like my entirebeing was proving everyone
wrong, and I think proving meright a little bit, but it it
all came from that place ofspite.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (12:55):
Thank you for being honest about that,
because I'm sure some peoplewill finally be able to give
verbiage of what that looks likefor them and and how it shows
up.
And I I just want to bring sometenderness into some of the way
that you're perceiving yourselfbecause I do the same thing.
It's highly critical that itdoesn't meet a certain standard
(13:16):
rather than see, like, oh, I didthat, and it didn't look
properly because probablycriticized or critiqued, or
again, the comparison trap.
Yet seeing like, wow, that waspretty intelligent of what you
navigated through and how itshowed up and the capacity that
you, you know.
And a lot of people don'trealize too, with trauma, you
(13:39):
learn the game.
So the education system isn'tthe best thing to navigate
through.
So when you said good grades,I'm like, what does that really
mean?
Right, exactly.
Malisa Hepner (13:47):
I still don't care that I didn't get good
grades.
Like, what does that mean?
I love to tell people Igraduated with such a crappy GPA
because they just need peopleto understand.
Like, it was funny to notice mebeing like, no, I wasn't high
achieving.
Um, and I was like, Oh, I'mgonna have to unpack that one.
But like also it it had nodeterminant upon my success.
(14:07):
When I got to a safe place tobe able to learn, I went to
college and did very well, youknow?
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (14:14):
Yeah, yeah, I was the same way.
Um, I had no interest in highschool and everything else.
And I used to do those, I don'tknow what the tests are called
in Canada, but to see what yourlevel and intelligence is and
get really high marks, andthey're like, why is she
failing?
Like it doesn't these twothings.
And I'm like, in my mind, I'mlike, oh, are you guys not
(14:34):
cluing in that there wasunsafety and there wasn't
motivation?
And you know, it's like okay,but it's same thing.
Um, you know, once, you know,college and and going, I
actually motherhood activatedthe motivation for me because I
still couldn't find it withinmyself.
It was my firstborn thatactivated that, that I could
(14:56):
feel a sense of worthiness andstart to come back into that.
Yeah, even though it wasoutside of myself, it was
something that, okay, I don'twant certain things repeated for
you that I went through.
So I'm thankful, even thoughyou know there's still things
that got repeated that I'm like,oh my gosh, I should know
(15:17):
better.
Yet that's how, you know, andthat's how the whole the human
evolution is.
And I think the most importantthing is not about not making
mistakes, it's about when yousee them to be accountable as
much as you can, because themore accountability expands your
self-awareness and then thatthere's safety to choose
differently to create space forthose emotions and um deep
(15:41):
ingrained patterns that havebeen protection that your
nervous system has created andreally, you know, face and meet
that part, um, and all thosehidden parts that keep coming
up.
Because once that's the thingwhere a lot of people think that
there's this arrival, and onceI know everything will be so
predictable, and I'll I'll knowit all like all I certainly
(16:04):
thought that I really did, Ireally did.
Malisa Hepner (16:06):
Well, because we're kind of sold in some way,
like you gotta, you just gottado this, or you need to change
your mindset, and so as soon asyou start to work on mindset and
it uncovers this other stuff,you're like, Man, I'm so messed
up.
Okay, so whenever I get here orafter I work on myself, I I I
(16:29):
thought it, I really did.
I was I I I remember the daythat I arrived at the
conclusion, like, oh, there'snot a destination.
Like we're we're gonna keep on.
But that's why, like, I don'treally look and say I'm still on
a healing journey.
I feel like I healed and madepeace with things, but I'm going
to continue to grow and evolve.
(16:49):
And I feel like the energy inthose statements are very
different, you know?
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (16:54):
They are.
Uh, for me, um, I always puthealing because I think for
myself, there isn't a healedpart because when those visitors
come to knock again, um, say,you know, the sexual trauma or
feeling abandoned, when theycome to come up, I don't have to
push them away.
(17:14):
I can open the door and allowthem to come in, that they are a
part of me and it's not havingto be pushed away.
And the healing also is for methat as soon as you are coming
whole and you're with self, thenthere's more safety in your
body to reveal more things thathave been in the shadows.
And then that takes that spaceof, oh, I thought I was oh, and
(17:38):
it's like, okay, you came tovisit, and boy, where have you
been?
And just really be with all ofthat.
And especially, you know, whenwe're doing this, there's layers
of depth.
It's not about a trajectory oflinear and it goes straight.
It's that, okay, well, you hadthis experience and you could
(17:59):
relate to it, and then lifebrings another, and then there's
even more depth to it, and yougo even further into it, and
it's like, yeah, I thought I hadthis all kind of together.
And it's like nope, I'm notsure.
Malisa Hepner (18:11):
And it comes back around and you're like, uh,
okay, I'm getting anotheropportunity for deeper
engagement in this.
Okay.
Like, I there's been uh threedifferent themes of that for me
that kind of like are differentparts of me.
But the first time you learn itis like this major aha, and
you're like, oh my gosh, what aparadigm shift! And then I did
(18:32):
not know you could have an evendeeper understanding of things
until the next cycle of the thatone thing comes around.
And I was like, it's a totallydifferent paradigm shift again.
But that's like how all of myspiritual awakening has been is
like da-da, and and feeling likea completely different person
(18:54):
from like morning to night.
Like whenever I first startedhaving all these major aha's, I
was getting like three, four aday.
And and you know how much itlike changes you as a person
when you get something that likebig to of an understanding
about why you've done things andhow you can do things in a more
productive, loving,compassionate way.
(19:15):
Um, to where like I was like,Am I in spiritual psychosis?
Because everything was rapidlyshifting and I felt a physical
unraveling, you know, likethings were just being remade
within me.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (19:31):
Those neural pathways, those neural
pathways were actually creatingnew and it was physically
feeling, yeah.
Malisa Hepner (19:38):
Yeah, yeah.
But yeah, I finally just likeactually I was talking to my son
who was like 16 or 17 at thetime, and I was like, Do you
think he's pretty spiritual?
It's just like am I inspiritual psychosis?
And he was like, No, I thinkthis is a new belief system, and
a lot of change has happened ina really short amount of time,
and you're just adjusting.
So I will just give yourselfsome slack.
(20:00):
And I was like, Okay, thankyou.
Because he was the only one Ifelt safe to like say that out
loud to, because I really waslike, I think I may have lost my
mind here.
Yeah, I guess in some ways Ireally did, because I shed so
much of the old me in thosedays.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (20:16):
What had you go into therapy and be a
therapist?
Malisa Hepner (20:19):
At like four years old, felt the call to be a
helper in that way, like uhfelt as if I could hear someone
saying, like, you're gonna gothrough some serious stuff, and
you're gonna get through it, andthen you're gonna share that
(20:40):
with others, like how you gotthrough it.
And then I had that reconfirmedwhen I was like 14 years old.
I was at school and I saw I thI think it was like Miss
Oklahoma or someone doing somemotivational speech with some
students in the gym, and I justgot this like I'll say download
where it was like, You're gonnado that one day.
(21:02):
Um, like your parents are gonnadie, because at this point
they'd they were both stillalive.
Um, you know, you've alreadybeen through all this, and your
parents are gonna die, andwhatever, and you're gonna use
all of this, you know, as yourmagic, and you're gonna help
others.
Uh, so I kind of always knew Iwanted to be a therapist.
Um, but I put it on hold for along time because I did
(21:24):
full-time work in hospice as ahospice social worker for a
really long time, and then Ifelt uh moved to work in
education for a while to mymiddle one that I was just
talking about.
He really just struggled inschool and whatever, and I um
just felt like kids maybe neededa different type of presence,
so I did that.
(21:45):
Um, and then I started topursue being a therapist, but it
really wasn't until after myinitial like healing started
that I felt ready to do thatbecause um oh, truly I had lots
of reasons, but what I came towas I didn't want to play act
(22:07):
being a therapist, and I was notin any way authentic prior to
that, nor was I really aligned,and so it once those pieces
really started to move into theright place where I felt really
aligned and and at least on theon the journey of authenticity.
(22:28):
I mean, I think you know, beingseen is still something that is
there to struggle with for me,and you know, for lack of a
better phrase, but um, I canstill see where I am afraid to
show up.
I do it, but it's still likescary sometimes.
Um, but I really wanted the I'mhaving trouble reaching for
(22:49):
this word, but permission toshow up exactly how I am and to
not try to be anyone differentwhen I'm working with people.
And once I felt solidified inthat decision that I don't
really care what people say, I'mgonna be exactly who I am with
therapy clients as I am with mychildren, with my spouse, with
(23:13):
my friends, with my podcastguest, with people I'm talking
to on their podcast, I'm gonnabe me in every single one of
those situations and not really,there really is no division
between who I am at home, who Iam in this conversation, who I
am with friends, like I this isme.
And I got to where I reallyunderstood that was my magic,
(23:34):
and that's that's where I'm themost impactful.
And once I gave myself thatpermission to just go be me,
then I felt really comfortable.
And you know, like my clientsknow, like, well, I'm only a
couple steps ahead of you onthat learning.
Like, I'm I and they I learnstuff all the time from like
podcast guests or being onsomeone else's to where I've
(23:54):
like yesterday in a session, Iwas like, Okay, I met this
really cool guy.
He taught me this thing,da-da-da, let's try it.
You know, like I'm not afraidto say I'm still a student, I'm
still learning, and it's not myeducation that that makes me
really good at what I do.
You know what I mean?
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (24:10):
Yeah, and I think, you know, that's a
breath of fresh air for a lot ofpeople to hear, especially the
professionals, because there isthis consensus that you need the
accreditation, and then theinstitute tells you how you have
to show up with your clientsand you're not, you know, you're
being evaluated and this andthat.
And it's like, well, are youtaking into context nervous
(24:33):
systems?
Are you taking in context withthe emotions and what we're
feeling with what this person'scapacity is?
Because a lot if you're reallydoing therapy, it's a lot of
reading that nervous system,really reading the body
language, listening to thethings that are unsaid.
And, you know, mine is a lot oftimes people emote around me
(24:56):
and they feel a sense of beingopen.
So I'm like, I invited to comeout and they don't even realize
how much they've been carryinginside them.
And I always remind them toothat the tears don't mean only
sadness.
It's it's a plethora.
Like, you know, when you'rehappy about something, you cry.
When some a baby's born, youcry.
Uh, when you something, youcried.
(25:18):
So unfortunately, we're sostigmatized around our
vulnerability that we only classit as, oh, it's only a dense
emotion that shouldn't be seenand it shouldn't be felt because
it feels unsafe to reveal that.
Yet the more that we can holdthat and be safe in being
ourselves, like you just said,that's where the magic power is,
(25:41):
also.
Like I get that all the time ofhow can you be that way?
And you know, backtrack to whatyou just said, being in the
space of hospice, that iswarrior work.
Because as I mentioned, myfriend transitioned in November.
She was my mind is going, but II I want to say nine days,
(26:04):
either eight or nine days.
Um, that no eating, nodrinking, we're just waiting for
the body to shut down.
And every day the doctors keptsaying today has to be the day
because this isn't making sense.
So I was there 24-7 with her,um, holding her and held her
with her last breath.
The amount of compassion, theamount of self-awareness you
(26:30):
need to have, because let metell you, some of the nurses
that were in that floor don'tbelong there.
And they don't realize thedamage that they're doing.
However, I think also too,there's not enough tools for
nurses and doctors and theprofessionals in that space to
(26:53):
really start taking care ofthemselves.
Right.
So that they understand that.
Malisa Hepner (26:57):
That's their protective layer.
Yeah, totally.
I totally get that.
I mean, I I can remember acouple of nurses.
So my dad died suddenly of amorphine overdose, but my mom
died in a three-week ordealrelated to Hepsi and cirrhosis,
but it was gory and ugly becausewhen your liver fails, it goes,
(27:19):
it's gross.
Um, and she had beenincarcerated at the time, so
there was just a lot of layersthere.
And I was very early pregnant,like eight weeks pregnant with
my first child when she was inthe hospital.
So I really needed some care.
Like to, you know, can you tellme these things a little
(27:40):
tenderly?
Um, and I can remember, Ireally more remember the people
that that were so soft with me,and they cared so much that her
daughter is pregnant, and let's,you know, being careful about
not letting me come in untilthey get her cleaned up because
this wouldn't, you know, there'sa lot of blood or whatever.
(28:00):
Um, and I remember the onenurse who was so impactful who
was in the room when she died,and just the way that she dealt
with me, and that was my drivingforce for like I knew I wanted
to be in hospice, and then inearly undergrad, I took a death,
dying, and grief class.
I felt so pulled to that, youknow what I mean?
(28:22):
And I just knew, like, okay, Ican't do anything to stop this
from happening, but I can help,like, I can I can make it more
peaceful or more comfortable forboth this patient as their
advocate and their family.
And so for me, it was easy toget into that space with them.
(28:42):
It was actually like at first,my I remember my first death and
just being like, okay, but itfeels weird to not be the one
sitting there holding theirhand.
And like, I want to make surelike they're they're okay, you
know.
I had to like learn how to likebuild some boundaries around
that, but it's so much betterthan the people who came in with
like a thousand protectivelayers.
(29:03):
And I've known so many nurseslike that, and I know they care
about what they're doing, butthey just can't go there with
people, like not themselves, notthemselves, not their family,
not their work people, like notsomebody who's dying in front of
them.
They are emotionallyunavailable, and that is what
that looks like.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (29:23):
Yeah, exactly.
So you mentioned it emotionallyunavailable.
What brought the podcast?
How did it come about?
How long has it been here?
And tell me all the details.
Was there a muse that came toyou?
Was it in meditation?
Was there a prayer?
What brought it?
Because it's very well neededbecause a lot of people don't
(29:45):
even know how to give theverbiage of what emotionally
unavailable is.
Malisa Hepner (29:49):
Yeah.
Well, okay, so I truly I'm aGemini.
I've always wanted to talk.
I had wanted to podcast eversince I came across armchair
experts.
Dak Shepherd, like totallyinspired.
But um, the name for it camebecause I thought it was
hilarious.
But I that was like thebeginning of healing for me,
(30:11):
even before the mental healthcrisis, because I'm a person who
takes a quiz, like, you know,just like which Gray's anatomy
character are you?
You know, that kind of thing.
And there was a quiz that said,um, are you emotionally
unavailable?
I take this quiz fullyexpecting not to be seen as
emotionally unavailable.
And boom, it says I am.
And so I text a social workerfriend of mine, and I was like,
(30:33):
Do you think you think I'memotionally unavailable?
She's like, Yeah, I do.
And I was like, What?
I mean, angry, because I haveno capacity for this, like none.
I opened a huge can of wormswith this one little quiz.
And I was like, Can you give mean example?
Because this is new informationfor me.
And she's like, um, the way youretell your trauma.
(30:56):
And I was like, that hurtsbecause I'm funny.
Like, I legitimately did notrealize it wasn't normal to tell
these stories like you're astand-up comedian.
And I kind of had hopes ofbeing a stand-up comedian at
some point and using thosestories.
Like I could not do that now.
Yes, some of them are funny andI can tell them funny, but I'm
so connected to them in a waythat I never was before.
(31:18):
Like now there are certainstories that I used to be able
to tell with a smile on my facethat I can't tell without
crying.
You know what I mean?
So just there, I was sodisconnected, and so that was
kind of the beginning oflearning to try to be more
vulnerable, but notunderstanding what the what the
barrier to vulnerability andauthenticity really were.
(31:40):
Hence the reason I had a mentalhealth crisis.
So when I started to like movethe pieces of my life, I knew I
was quitting a toxic job.
And I was like, you know, I'vewanted to do this podcast, and I
and I wanted to do one with afriend at first because I didn't
feel like I was interestingenough to do it by myself.
(32:02):
And then I just was like, we'redoing it.
I'm doing it, I'm doing it.
And that was kind of my firststep too towards imperfection
and being okay with it because Isaid, perfect is the enemy of
good.
I like literally repeated thatphrase to myself all day, every
day, because I didn't want toget wrapped up in all the
pre-production stuff.
I wanted to start this thingfrom grassroots and it'd be I I
(32:26):
wanted people to see someone dosomething in a really ugly way
and watch it transform, youknow, and I have transformed.
The people on my show are whosaved me, truly.
Like I the the information Ihave received from them, it's
still, I mean, literally, I'mlearning every week.
You know, like I'm such astudent, and like I'm getting a
(32:48):
lot more comfortable saying,truly, this show is about me.
I mean, it's my journey tobecoming more emotionally
available, honestly.
Um, and that looks differentwith each guest depending on
their level of expertise or whatthey're bringing to my show,
you know.
I like a wide variety ofconversations.
Sometimes it's a medium,sometimes it's a therapist,
(33:10):
sometimes it's uh whatever, youknow.
Um, so you know, it's just adifferent connection point.
And I I really in inventoryingmy life asked, like, what lights
me up?
And it's connection in thisway.
And my former life lackedauthentic connection.
Like I was reliving that cyclethat we're all kind of
(33:33):
programmed with to connect viatalking badly about people,
gossiping, complaining.
That was the only way Iconnected, mostly complaining, a
lot of gossip.
I mean, I was I was just asguilty as anybody else of that.
And so that, you know, I'mreally comfortable saying like
this is kind of the onlyconversation I want to have.
(33:55):
And that makes me a little toomuch for people from my former
life.
So I'm, I mean, I would callmyself a little bit isolated,
but I don't feel, you know,there are times it feels a
little lonely or whateverbecause I don't have anyone
aside from like my husband orkids to go do things that I want
to do with a girlfriend.
You know what I mean?
But it's also fine because Ilike I just make new friends
(34:18):
through the internet and we havethese kind of conversations,
you know what I mean?
So that's really that's reallythe show.
I mean, and I have a reallygood time with it.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (34:26):
Yeah.
Uh I'm looking forward to beinga guest and seeing where our
conversation will go in there.
So um, and I thank you for, youknow, accepting because I sent
the message to you and asked ifwe would do a pod swap.
And you, you know, graciouslysaid yeah.
And so I'm like, okay, come on,and I will be on yours in a few
(34:48):
months.
And I really thank you forbeing vulnerable and doing the
alchemy, you know, taking thoseimpurities and turning them into
gold, yet not just keeping itfor yourself.
You're sharing it with othersin a world that wants
perfection, that wants it to alllook together.
It's like, what does healingout loud really look like?
(35:09):
Not when it's all perfect andin a box, a nice box, like the
book that I just wrote, uh, thatI have to actually, do you know
any editors that are liketrauma-informed or possibly
okay?
Well, we'll get that after therecording.
Yet the um the title is calledThe Gift Wrapped in Sandpaper,
(35:30):
Your Untamed Power.
Malisa Hepner (35:32):
Oh, I love this.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (35:33):
Yeah, so it's really um understanding
that sometimes we have certainlife experiences and we don't
see it as a gift, yet takingthat sandpaper and polishing it
off and getting off the edges,then we see the magnitude of the
gift.
And sometimes there's a giftand it's wrapped around
sandpaper and we don't want totouch it because that hurts and
(35:53):
it doesn't look pretty, where wedon't realize the depths of how
powerful that gift is.
So um really understanding, youknow, the work because when you
have been shaped by complextrauma or, you know, trauma,
there's a lot of work that goeson.
There's a lot of work to relateto yourself, to have compassion
(36:16):
for yourself, to bringsensitivity, to bring
vulnerability in there and notsee it as a threat, but your
body reads it as a threatbecause when you were young, you
weren't able to go into thosespaces.
You were harmed.
So automatically it's doing itsjob of protection and having to
do that rewiring and holdyourself accountable and you
(36:38):
know, still continue to chooseto lean in is like warrior work
that I say.
I know certain listeners andmyself, we heard mental health
crisis.
What did that look like foryou?
Malisa Hepner (36:55):
It looked like me making a plan to end my life
because I was just in a reallyhopeless place.
Um, you know, I now understandthat I was dealing with a lot of
subconscious shame.
I was a very reactive personand um really I self-identified
(37:16):
as mean.
I'm just mean and I don't knowhow to treat people and I talk
to people like crap andwhatever.
And it was not like everydaystrangers, I would freezer fawn
in conflict with with otherpeople, but with my family and
my close friends.
I had a very sharp tongue andit was very it I didn't think
before I spoke, it justhappened.
I was very reactive.
Um, but the I I got to where Ijust felt like my kids were
(37:39):
better off without me.
I truly believed that because Iwasn't perfect, because I
wasn't perfect, that's what Iunderstand now, is that I was
holding myself, you know, to afix of perfection, you know,
like it was not gonna ever beattained.
Um, and so because even then inin making a plan, I was still
(38:00):
trying to be considerate.
I was like, oh, well, my oldestkid's birthday's in a couple
weeks, so that's not cool.
And then I was literally goingthrough a calendar trying to
pick a date.
I was like, then it'sThanksgiving, then it's
Christmas, then it's the nextkid's birthday, then the next
kid's birthday.
So I picked a date that endedup being like 10 months away.
So within a few days, veryquickly, I was like, okay,
(38:22):
because the relief that thatmaking the decision that yes, I
was going to, setting the planin motion, having a date, that
brought such relief and andquieted the noise just enough to
be able to like chill for acouple of days and then get
clarity, which is like, okay, ifyou're going to make it to 10
(38:44):
months from now, something'sgotta give.
Like, we have to get better ifwe're even gonna make it to this
date.
And so as I kind of starteddoing whatever I could, I mean,
I was I was just kind ofborrowing information from the
internet, basically.
And I mean, and and it helped,I mean, it really did.
(39:05):
I was I was growing in the waythat I could at the time.
Um, and like I said, I I had aspiritual awakening during that
time too.
And so starting to just kind ofget different information
helped me move pieces, and I wasspending time creating in a way
that I had didn't even know Ihad like the capacity for.
(39:26):
So I was learning how to getlike in a flow state, and those
were like the the the littlebaby coping skills I had to get
through that time, and it therewas a lot of crying, wailing.
Like, even when I started myshow, those early episodes, my
voice is so raw from like cryingso much.
(39:46):
Cause like I'd be crying over atech issue right before, or for
a couple of hours before, overa tech issue and something else,
because like I just literallyhad no capacity for any stress.
I was just beat down.
I I just I it was like I wastruly at rock bottom and trying
to build, you know, up fromthere.
(40:07):
And so that's kind of that'skind of what I did was just
piece by piece built back.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (40:14):
Thank you.
Thank you for you know thecourage.
And I want to thank yourprotective system because to
make plans, there was a partthat was still advocating for
you.
Because suicidal ideation, whenyou're really in a dark place.
I had a friend that committedsuicide last year and she jumped
from her balcony.
Uh, she kept telling us, andwe, you know, listened and
(40:37):
everything else, yet it justovertook her, um, the voices and
everything else.
So I want to thank thatprotective system that still had
the engagement of still beingable to feel the pain because
people don't realize a littlestressor of something not going
right, it feels 10 times worsethan somebody that has a very
reactive nervous system that hasno capacity.
(40:59):
It's very painful.
It sends off all kinds ofsignals and shutting down and
everything else.
So it's like, I don't, youdon't want to feel that anymore.
Um and a lot of people don'tunderstand what that feels like,
especially if they've never hadto engage with their nervous
system that way.
It can be very difficult tohold space for understanding for
(41:20):
that because it's invisible.
Malisa Hepner (41:22):
Or even just if no one's ever shown up for them
when they needed them to, youknow, the way we dismiss others,
the way we've been dismissed,because we don't know how to
hold space for somebody ingeneral if no one's ever done it
for us.
Exactly.
And so, yeah, it was it wasrough.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (41:41):
Yeah, it was okay.
I'm uh mindful of time.
So I want to bring you into areflective question.
I want to ask you to go andtake this awareness right now
and go back to your 18-year-oldself.
Okay.
What are three words you wouldtell your 18-year-old self to
(42:03):
carry you to the journey ofright now?
Malisa Hepner (42:06):
You're always worthy.
Nice.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (42:09):
Those are powerful ones, very powerful
ones.
And I'm sure there was parts ofyou that would have said
bullshit um at the time, butstill reinforcing the message.
Very powerful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So where can the listeners findyou?
Malisa Hepner (42:26):
I'm super active on Instagram at Melissa.hepner.
My first name spelled a littleweird.
M-A-L-I-S-A.
My link tree is there for allof the things that I'm doing.
I create workbooks.
Um, I recently started this acouple of months ago, but I'm
releasing a new little instantdownload workbook every month.
And um like the first one wassafe to be seen, so that you can
(42:50):
start to kind of see parts ofyourself and just like, you
know, really slide into thatauthenticity piece, feeling more
in alignment.
I've got one aboutperfectionism.
Um, this next one releasing isjust like uh balance and
harmony, things like that.
Um, but that's all on my linktree.
And um both my Unquiet Soul,the other podcast, is not going
(43:15):
to release until October, Ithink, 7th.
But that will be on the LinkTree whenever it does.
But there's links to the twomajor platforms for emotionally
unavailable on my Linktree, butyou can get it wherever you
listen to podcasts.
Um, I have my if you'reinterested in my childhood
story, I have a book.
(43:35):
I have not promoted this verymuch at all because I wrote this
five years ago, but my book,um, Owning My Crazy, is on
Amazon.
I did release like a revamped,which just adds just a tiny bit
of like recovering from thatcrisis because I wanted it to be
released to a wider market, buttruly I only did that because I
had published on Amazon only,and people like acted as if I
(44:00):
wasn't a valid author becausethey couldn't find it at Barnes
and Noble.
So then I felt like I had tolike do that.
So truly, like, there's nopoint in buying the revamped
version at all.
I only did that because I waslike not secure enough in myself
to be like, and how many bookshave you published?
Okay.
So the owning my crazy, theoriginal one, is I like it.
(44:23):
I wrote it very much how Italk, and and kind of it's
funny, you'll see how stunted Iwas because like just the
limited information I knew abouthealing at the time was kind of
highlighted at the end, but itwas just about like my limited
understanding of nervous systemregulation.
But truly, I just wanted a wayto share my story.
Um, and so that's there.
I have some children's books ifif uh you know there are any
(44:45):
like school counselorslistening.
I wrote that from a very schoolcounselor perspective.
So um I have a journal onAmazon.
So yeah, that all of that is onthe link tree.
But um my website's on theretoo.
So if you want to connect withme one-on-one, that is on the
website.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (45:03):
So now with our conversation, I'd ask
you to go within yourself andfeel into what a listener may
need to feel empowered and whatwould that message be for them?
Malisa Hepner (45:19):
I would say that regardless, like it's great when
you can see the things thatstill need attention.
Like, and I I hope that you'realways going to find some new
layer that you need to quoteunquote work on or grow through
or whatever verbiage you want touse.
(45:39):
But don't let that make youforget that who you are right
now is perfect, like you'regreat, you you're already all
the things you're trying tobecome.
You we we need to unbecome morethan we need to become.
So, like, you don't have tostrive for a destination, and
(46:02):
that is sneaky.
Even when we sit here and saythere's no destination, I'm sure
tomorrow I will find a waywhere I thought there was a
destination again.
So take time to really sit andhonor who you are and every part
of you that got you to whereyou are right now.
They are all magical, and whoyou are right here, right now is
(46:24):
full of all the magic you'reever gonna need.
So, you know, I like I justencourage people to just put
their hand over their heart andjust love themselves and say,
Thank you.
I love you, you're great.
We're doing great because thewhole human experience is
supposed to be imperfect.
So if you are imperfect, you'redoing a really good job.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (46:46):
I want to thank you for having such an
enlightening and wonderfulconversation.
It was a breath of fresh air ofthe transparency, the
vulnerability, and the livedexperience that you have to
offer to other people.
And like I said, you're doingthe alchemy, you've taken those
impurities and you'vetransformed them into gold, and
(47:07):
you just didn't keep it foryourself.
You're sharing it with others.
So thank you for being such abright light in this world.
I am greatly appreciative thatwe are connected.
Malisa Hepner (47:18):
Me too.
And thank you so much forhaving me.
I had such a good time withyou.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (47:22):
Please remember to be kind to yourself.
Hey, you made it all the wayhere.
I appreciate you and your time.
If you found value in thisconversation, please share it
out.
If it was somebody that poppedinto your mind, take action and
share it out with them.
It possibly may not be themthat will benefit.
(47:43):
It's that they know somebodythat will benefit from listening
to this conversation.
So please take action and shareout the podcast.
You can find us on socialmedia, on Facebook, Instagram,
and TikTok under LiveOneself.
And if you want to inquireabout the work that I do and the
(48:03):
services that I provide topeople, come over on my website.
Come into a discovery calllived oneself.com.
Until next time, pleaseremember to be kind and handle
with yourself.
Welcome to the Lift One Self Podcast.
I'm your host, Nat Nat, andtoday I have a wonderful guest.
And we were chatting andtalking before we started
recording.
I was like, wait, stop.
Because the stuff that we weretalking about was like really
good content that I think manyof you guys will benefit from
hearing that.
So, Melissa, before we start,could you give myself and the
(00:26):
listeners a little bit of abrief description of who you
are?
Malisa Hepner (00:30):
Hi, I'm Melissa Hettner.
Um, I want to make a funny jokeabout my astrological signs,
but I won't.
Um man, who am I?
I'm a therapist in Oklahoma.
I'm also a podcast host of ashow called Emotionally
Unavailable.
I'm actually starting anotherone too with someone I met
through podcasting calledUnquiet Soul that um will
(00:55):
highlight some of our otherparts of our personality too,
but be around the same theme.
Um, I have three children.
I'm married for I think Ifigured it out this morning.
I think it's been 13 years.
Um, second husband, and I hadthis like super crazy extensive
history of trauma in childhood.
(01:17):
And then because I was thegolden child, kind of thought
that it didn't have any impacton me.
And uh, because you know Iwasn't living my pain out loud
the way my siblings were, and sothen I spent my entire adult
life like dealing with theimpacts of that trauma without
even understanding that that'swhat was happening, and kind of
hit a really severe mentalhealth crisis.
(01:39):
Uh the pinnacle of that beingin October of 23.
And since then, have just beenmoving the pieces of my life and
growing and evolving.
Somewhere in there, I had aspiritual awakening, and that
was totally uh an amazingexperience.
Um, and now I just really workon expanding my consciousness
(02:00):
and kind of I would say like youknow, bringing forth the new
earth is my hope.
Like that I'm making an impacton people and just showing them
that imperfect is the way to goand and you can love yourself
exactly how you are.
So that's that's that's a verybrief version of who I am.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (02:21):
So before we dig in, because I have
so many places to dig in intothat, will you join me in a
mindful moment?
Absolutely.
So, as we were uh discussingbeforehand, we are both kind of
fatigued.
And uh, for me, the seasonschanging just does something
with my whole body.
I think there's a little bit ofapprehension that it knows the
(02:42):
cold is coming.
And I'm also navigating throughgrief because I'm gonna come up
to the one-year anniversary ofmy friend transitioning um from
cancer.
So uh because of the work thatI do, I can feel that in my
body.
And so I'm holding space forthat.
And as I always say, slow andsteady.
Uh, for the listeners, as youalways hear my safety spiel, uh,
(03:04):
safety first.
So if you need your visual,please don't close your eyes.
Yet the other prompts you'reable to follow with us.
So please take this mindfulmoment.
You know, many of us don't knowhow important it is to show up
for ourselves.
So I hope you'll join us.
So, Melissa, I'll ask you toget comfortable in your seating.
And when and if it's safe to doso, you're gonna gently close
(03:28):
your eyes or soften your gaze.
And you're gonna bring yourawareness to watching your
breath.
And if you can, you're gonnabegin breathing in and out
through your nose.
You're not gonna try andcontrol your breath, you're just
gonna be aware of it, allowingit to guide you into your body.
(03:49):
Now there may be somesensations or feelings coming
up, and that's okay.
You're safe to feel you're safeto let go.
Surrender the need to control,release the need to resist me.
(04:12):
Drop deeper into your body.
Now you may be tangled in somedumb thoughts and to-do list.
That's okay.
Gently bring your awarenessback to your breath.
And dropping deeper into thebody.
(04:39):
Allowing yourself to just bepresent.
And more thoughts may haveswooped in gently bringing your
awareness back to your breath.
Beginning again.
Completely surrendering intothe body.
(05:08):
Maybe noticing some eggs orpain or certain things that you
(05:40):
were aware of in your body.
Take one big deep breath in.
Gently exhale.
And at your own time and in atyour own pace, you're gonna
(06:00):
gently open your eyes whilestill staying with your breath.
How is your heart doing?
Malisa Hepner (06:06):
Good.
I feel so relaxed now.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (06:09):
Yeah, I uh started introducing these
about like over a year ago uhwith guests, because I was like,
instead of telling people tomeditate, let me bring them in
what this little check-in canbe, and also you know, do the
practices with the guest also sothat we can not just preach or
say what there is, it's actuallymodel it and see what that
(06:30):
actually looks like ininteractions.
Um, let me tell you, uh, thelittle perfective part or the
one that wants to hide didn'treally like to do that at first.
Oh, I bet.
Yeah, like, whoo, how are thesepeople gonna receive this?
How are they gonna be?
And it's like, you know, let'slet's model what that looks like
and what how we can show up umfor ourselves and do those
(06:53):
check-ins.
So where do I go?
Actually, let me start righthere.
What does trauma mean to you?
What how do you define trauma?
Malisa Hepner (07:05):
Well, um, I would say with my limited brain
capacity, um, trauma is just anyevent that has a lasting
impact.
I I don't think it has to looka certain way, but if it's
something that made you feelreally afraid in any way and
(07:28):
kind of caused a separationbetween you and your body, then
then it created that spacebetween you and and your true
self.
And so that's I mean, there'syou know, I really had complex
trauma where I lived an entirechildhood disconnected from
myself for protective reasons,uh, and and it was just wrought
(07:50):
with you know neglect and abuse.
But uh, I don't think it has tobe anything like that.
I think that people can see acar accident and be traumatized
by it and have real lastingimpact from that.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (08:08):
Yeah.
Um, how I describe it is, youknow, trauma isn't the actual
event.
It's how you felt and what youdid in process.
And then what your nervoussystem does is, as you said,
it's it creates this separationfrom self and it creates this
layer of protection.
And a lot of people don'trealize, like, oh, well,
(08:29):
sometimes they're like, well, Icould feel all kinds.
I can cry or get angry.
And it's like, okay, at leastyou're better than what other
people yet.
Did you ever have a space toprocess and make sense of what
those experiences were?
Because especially with complextrauma as a child, your little
brain that does not have livedexperience cannot take in the
(08:51):
magnitude of what you've beenable to experience.
And a lot of times, as yousaid, emotions didn't feel safe
to feel because the caretakersor the adults got activated with
that.
So it was very unsafepsychologically, emotionally,
spiritually.
So a lot of times people thinktrauma is only a physical thing,
(09:11):
where it's like, no, a lot ofit is like psychological or
emotional.
Yet it's that separation fromself and that journey is coming
back home into the body, intoself, which is a journey because
there's a lot of emotions thatcome up that you have told
yourself and told and yoursystem has said, no, those
(09:32):
aren't safe to feel.
So let's just keep burying themdown.
Yet, as we know, um, the bodykeeps score and emotions are
energy, they're messengerstrying to tell you stuff that a
lot of times sometimes we don'twant to hear it because our
perfectionist mask is coming upand everything else.
Malisa Hepner (09:52):
Yeah.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (09:54):
When you said that you know you were
the golden child and you didn'treally see that the trauma had
impacted you.
Was there hypervigilance, wasthere high achieving in your
behavior?
Malisa Hepner (10:09):
So much hypervigilance, so much
hypervigilance.
I I still don't recognize thatin my childhood per se, in the
hypervigilance.
I mean, I know it was there,but it's I recognize it more in
my adulthood, especially becauseum my first real intimate
(10:29):
relationship was in adulthood,and that's where so much of this
wounding came out for me in thefirst time insecurity, uh,
jealousy, just some real psychostuff.
Um, so that was definitelypresent because I was constantly
looking for reasons to attack,you know, and so in hindsight, I
(10:52):
can certainly see that.
I was so separated from myselfin childhood that it it's it is
hard to identify a lot of thingsfrom there.
High achieving, it's funny, mymy initial instinct is to say no
because of comparing myself toother people.
But if I was comparing myselfto my siblings, then yes.
(11:14):
And like I was the first one touh go to college, uh, one of
the only ones, one of a couple,and one of only a few to
graduate from high school.
So, like in the in this world,yes, I was high achieving, but I
graduated high school with likea 1.5 because my little trauma
brain was not there for it, youknow, and I was allowed, like
(11:36):
that was the one thing that likeas long as you're passing or
whatever, like fine, fine, fine.
So because I was allowed thespace to not have perfect
grades, I didn't have perfectgrades, but yeah, I I it was I
was what I really understand isI was super motivated by spite,
driven by spite, because we werein um a kinship foster care
(12:01):
situation.
So not only did I have reallytoxic family members that were
saying really bad stuff to usabout us, um, but also in you
know, I received a lot of reallygood education through the
foster system, but also a lot ofstatistics of what was likely
for me to become, if what, Idon't know.
(12:24):
But that you know, this is thisis a trajectory that children
who have experienced what you'reexperiencing can go on.
So I took, you know, what myfamily, specifically some aunts
who were just so determined toreally tear me down, and then
this education that I receivedand decided I will prove you all
(12:45):
wrong.
And that was like my entirebeing was proving everyone
wrong, and I think proving meright a little bit, but it it
all came from that place ofspite.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (12:55):
Thank you for being honest about that,
because I'm sure some peoplewill finally be able to give
verbiage of what that looks likefor them and and how it shows
up.
And I I just want to bring sometenderness into some of the way
that you're perceiving yourselfbecause I do the same thing.
It's highly critical that itdoesn't meet a certain standard
(13:16):
rather than see, like, oh, I didthat, and it didn't look
properly because probablycriticized or critiqued, or
again, the comparison trap.
Yet seeing like, wow, that waspretty intelligent of what you
navigated through and how itshowed up and the capacity that
you, you know.
And a lot of people don'trealize too, with trauma, you
(13:39):
learn the game.
So the education system isn'tthe best thing to navigate
through.
So when you said good grades,I'm like, what does that really
mean?
Right, exactly.
Malisa Hepner (13:47):
I still don't care that I didn't get good
grades.
Like, what does that mean?
I love to tell people Igraduated with such a crappy GPA
because they just need peopleto understand.
Like, it was funny to notice mebeing like, no, I wasn't high
achieving.
Um, and I was like, Oh, I'mgonna have to unpack that one.
But like also it it had nodeterminant upon my success.
(14:07):
When I got to a safe place tobe able to learn, I went to
college and did very well, youknow?
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (14:14):
Yeah, yeah, I was the same way.
Um, I had no interest in highschool and everything else.
And I used to do those, I don'tknow what the tests are called
in Canada, but to see what yourlevel and intelligence is and
get really high marks, andthey're like, why is she
failing?
Like it doesn't these twothings.
And I'm like, in my mind, I'mlike, oh, are you guys not
(14:34):
cluing in that there wasunsafety and there wasn't
motivation?
And you know, it's like okay,but it's same thing.
Um, you know, once, you know,college and and going, I
actually motherhood activatedthe motivation for me because I
still couldn't find it withinmyself.
It was my firstborn thatactivated that, that I could
(14:56):
feel a sense of worthiness andstart to come back into that.
Yeah, even though it wasoutside of myself, it was
something that, okay, I don'twant certain things repeated for
you that I went through.
So I'm thankful, even thoughyou know there's still things
that got repeated that I'm like,oh my gosh, I should know
(15:17):
better.
Yet that's how, you know, andthat's how the whole the human
evolution is.
And I think the most importantthing is not about not making
mistakes, it's about when yousee them to be accountable as
much as you can, because themore accountability expands your
self-awareness and then thatthere's safety to choose
differently to create space forthose emotions and um deep
(15:41):
ingrained patterns that havebeen protection that your
nervous system has created andreally, you know, face and meet
that part, um, and all thosehidden parts that keep coming
up.
Because once that's the thingwhere a lot of people think that
there's this arrival, and onceI know everything will be so
predictable, and I'll I'll knowit all like all I certainly
(16:04):
thought that I really did, Ireally did.
Malisa Hepner (16:06):
Well, because we're kind of sold in some way,
like you gotta, you just gottado this, or you need to change
your mindset, and so as soon asyou start to work on mindset and
it uncovers this other stuff,you're like, Man, I'm so messed
up.
Okay, so whenever I get here orafter I work on myself, I I I
(16:29):
thought it, I really did.
I was I I I remember the daythat I arrived at the
conclusion, like, oh, there'snot a destination.
Like we're we're gonna keep on.
But that's why, like, I don'treally look and say I'm still on
a healing journey.
I feel like I healed and madepeace with things, but I'm going
to continue to grow and evolve.
(16:49):
And I feel like the energy inthose statements are very
different, you know?
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (16:54):
They are.
Uh, for me, um, I always puthealing because I think for
myself, there isn't a healedpart because when those visitors
come to knock again, um, say,you know, the sexual trauma or
feeling abandoned, when theycome to come up, I don't have to
push them away.
(17:14):
I can open the door and allowthem to come in, that they are a
part of me and it's not havingto be pushed away.
And the healing also is for methat as soon as you are coming
whole and you're with self, thenthere's more safety in your
body to reveal more things thathave been in the shadows.
And then that takes that spaceof, oh, I thought I was oh, and
(17:38):
it's like, okay, you came tovisit, and boy, where have you
been?
And just really be with all ofthat.
And especially, you know, whenwe're doing this, there's layers
of depth.
It's not about a trajectory oflinear and it goes straight.
It's that, okay, well, you hadthis experience and you could
(17:59):
relate to it, and then lifebrings another, and then there's
even more depth to it, and yougo even further into it, and
it's like, yeah, I thought I hadthis all kind of together.
And it's like nope, I'm notsure.
Malisa Hepner (18:11):
And it comes back around and you're like, uh,
okay, I'm getting anotheropportunity for deeper
engagement in this.
Okay.
Like, I there's been uh threedifferent themes of that for me
that kind of like are differentparts of me.
But the first time you learn itis like this major aha, and
you're like, oh my gosh, what aparadigm shift! And then I did
(18:32):
not know you could have an evendeeper understanding of things
until the next cycle of the thatone thing comes around.
And I was like, it's a totallydifferent paradigm shift again.
But that's like how all of myspiritual awakening has been is
like da-da, and and feeling likea completely different person
(18:54):
from like morning to night.
Like whenever I first startedhaving all these major aha's, I
was getting like three, four aday.
And and you know how much itlike changes you as a person
when you get something that likebig to of an understanding
about why you've done things andhow you can do things in a more
productive, loving,compassionate way.
(19:15):
Um, to where like I was like,Am I in spiritual psychosis?
Because everything was rapidlyshifting and I felt a physical
unraveling, you know, likethings were just being remade
within me.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (19:31):
Those neural pathways, those neural
pathways were actually creatingnew and it was physically
feeling, yeah.
Malisa Hepner (19:38):
Yeah, yeah.
But yeah, I finally just likeactually I was talking to my son
who was like 16 or 17 at thetime, and I was like, Do you
think he's pretty spiritual?
It's just like am I inspiritual psychosis?
And he was like, No, I thinkthis is a new belief system, and
a lot of change has happened ina really short amount of time,
and you're just adjusting.
So I will just give yourselfsome slack.
(20:00):
And I was like, Okay, thankyou.
Because he was the only one Ifelt safe to like say that out
loud to, because I really waslike, I think I may have lost my
mind here.
Yeah, I guess in some ways Ireally did, because I shed so
much of the old me in thosedays.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (20:16):
What had you go into therapy and be a
therapist?
Malisa Hepner (20:19):
At like four years old, felt the call to be a
helper in that way, like uhfelt as if I could hear someone
saying, like, you're gonna gothrough some serious stuff, and
you're gonna get through it, andthen you're gonna share that
(20:40):
with others, like how you gotthrough it.
And then I had that reconfirmedwhen I was like 14 years old.
I was at school and I saw I thI think it was like Miss
Oklahoma or someone doing somemotivational speech with some
students in the gym, and I justgot this like I'll say download
where it was like, You're gonnado that one day.
(21:02):
Um, like your parents are gonnadie, because at this point
they'd they were both stillalive.
Um, you know, you've alreadybeen through all this, and your
parents are gonna die, andwhatever, and you're gonna use
all of this, you know, as yourmagic, and you're gonna help
others.
Uh, so I kind of always knew Iwanted to be a therapist.
Um, but I put it on hold for along time because I did
(21:24):
full-time work in hospice as ahospice social worker for a
really long time, and then Ifelt uh moved to work in
education for a while to mymiddle one that I was just
talking about.
He really just struggled inschool and whatever, and I um
just felt like kids maybe neededa different type of presence,
so I did that.
(21:45):
Um, and then I started topursue being a therapist, but it
really wasn't until after myinitial like healing started
that I felt ready to do thatbecause um oh, truly I had lots
of reasons, but what I came towas I didn't want to play act
(22:07):
being a therapist, and I was notin any way authentic prior to
that, nor was I really aligned,and so it once those pieces
really started to move into theright place where I felt really
aligned and and at least on theon the journey of authenticity.
(22:28):
I mean, I think you know, beingseen is still something that is
there to struggle with for me,and you know, for lack of a
better phrase, but um, I canstill see where I am afraid to
show up.
I do it, but it's still likescary sometimes.
Um, but I really wanted the I'mhaving trouble reaching for
(22:49):
this word, but permission toshow up exactly how I am and to
not try to be anyone differentwhen I'm working with people.
And once I felt solidified inthat decision that I don't
really care what people say, I'mgonna be exactly who I am with
therapy clients as I am with mychildren, with my spouse, with
(23:13):
my friends, with my podcastguest, with people I'm talking
to on their podcast, I'm gonnabe me in every single one of
those situations and not really,there really is no division
between who I am at home, who Iam in this conversation, who I
am with friends, like I this isme.
And I got to where I reallyunderstood that was my magic,
(23:34):
and that's that's where I'm themost impactful.
And once I gave myself thatpermission to just go be me,
then I felt really comfortable.
And you know, like my clientsknow, like, well, I'm only a
couple steps ahead of you onthat learning.
Like, I'm I and they I learnstuff all the time from like
podcast guests or being onsomeone else's to where I've
(23:54):
like yesterday in a session, Iwas like, Okay, I met this
really cool guy.
He taught me this thing,da-da-da, let's try it.
You know, like I'm not afraidto say I'm still a student, I'm
still learning, and it's not myeducation that that makes me
really good at what I do.
You know what I mean?
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (24:10):
Yeah, and I think, you know, that's a
breath of fresh air for a lot ofpeople to hear, especially the
professionals, because there isthis consensus that you need the
accreditation, and then theinstitute tells you how you have
to show up with your clientsand you're not, you know, you're
being evaluated and this andthat.
And it's like, well, are youtaking into context nervous
(24:33):
systems?
Are you taking in context withthe emotions and what we're
feeling with what this person'scapacity is?
Because a lot if you're reallydoing therapy, it's a lot of
reading that nervous system,really reading the body
language, listening to thethings that are unsaid.
And, you know, mine is a lot oftimes people emote around me
(24:56):
and they feel a sense of beingopen.
So I'm like, I invited to comeout and they don't even realize
how much they've been carryinginside them.
And I always remind them toothat the tears don't mean only
sadness.
It's it's a plethora.
Like, you know, when you'rehappy about something, you cry.
When some a baby's born, youcry.
Uh, when you something, youcried.
(25:18):
So unfortunately, we're sostigmatized around our
vulnerability that we only classit as, oh, it's only a dense
emotion that shouldn't be seenand it shouldn't be felt because
it feels unsafe to reveal that.
Yet the more that we can holdthat and be safe in being
ourselves, like you just said,that's where the magic power is,
(25:41):
also.
Like I get that all the time ofhow can you be that way?
And you know, backtrack to whatyou just said, being in the
space of hospice, that iswarrior work.
Because as I mentioned, myfriend transitioned in November.
She was my mind is going, but II I want to say nine days,
(26:04):
either eight or nine days.
Um, that no eating, nodrinking, we're just waiting for
the body to shut down.
And every day the doctors keptsaying today has to be the day
because this isn't making sense.
So I was there 24-7 with her,um, holding her and held her
with her last breath.
The amount of compassion, theamount of self-awareness you
(26:30):
need to have, because let metell you, some of the nurses
that were in that floor don'tbelong there.
And they don't realize thedamage that they're doing.
However, I think also too,there's not enough tools for
nurses and doctors and theprofessionals in that space to
(26:53):
really start taking care ofthemselves.
Right.
So that they understand that.
Malisa Hepner (26:57):
That's their protective layer.
Yeah, totally.
I totally get that.
I mean, I I can remember acouple of nurses.
So my dad died suddenly of amorphine overdose, but my mom
died in a three-week ordealrelated to Hepsi and cirrhosis,
but it was gory and ugly becausewhen your liver fails, it goes,
(27:19):
it's gross.
Um, and she had beenincarcerated at the time, so
there was just a lot of layersthere.
And I was very early pregnant,like eight weeks pregnant with
my first child when she was inthe hospital.
So I really needed some care.
Like to, you know, can you tellme these things a little
(27:40):
tenderly?
Um, and I can remember, Ireally more remember the people
that that were so soft with me,and they cared so much that her
daughter is pregnant, and let's,you know, being careful about
not letting me come in untilthey get her cleaned up because
this wouldn't, you know, there'sa lot of blood or whatever.
(28:00):
Um, and I remember the onenurse who was so impactful who
was in the room when she died,and just the way that she dealt
with me, and that was my drivingforce for like I knew I wanted
to be in hospice, and then inearly undergrad, I took a death,
dying, and grief class.
I felt so pulled to that, youknow what I mean?
(28:22):
And I just knew, like, okay, Ican't do anything to stop this
from happening, but I can help,like, I can I can make it more
peaceful or more comfortable forboth this patient as their
advocate and their family.
And so for me, it was easy toget into that space with them.
(28:42):
It was actually like at first,my I remember my first death and
just being like, okay, but itfeels weird to not be the one
sitting there holding theirhand.
And like, I want to make surelike they're they're okay, you
know.
I had to like learn how to likebuild some boundaries around
that, but it's so much betterthan the people who came in with
like a thousand protectivelayers.
(29:03):
And I've known so many nurseslike that, and I know they care
about what they're doing, butthey just can't go there with
people, like not themselves, notthemselves, not their family,
not their work people, like notsomebody who's dying in front of
them.
They are emotionallyunavailable, and that is what
that looks like.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (29:23):
Yeah, exactly.
So you mentioned it emotionallyunavailable.
What brought the podcast?
How did it come about?
How long has it been here?
And tell me all the details.
Was there a muse that came toyou?
Was it in meditation?
Was there a prayer?
What brought it?
Because it's very well neededbecause a lot of people don't
(29:45):
even know how to give theverbiage of what emotionally
unavailable is.
Malisa Hepner (29:49):
Yeah.
Well, okay, so I truly I'm aGemini.
I've always wanted to talk.
I had wanted to podcast eversince I came across armchair
experts.
Dak Shepherd, like totallyinspired.
But um, the name for it camebecause I thought it was
hilarious.
But I that was like thebeginning of healing for me,
(30:11):
even before the mental healthcrisis, because I'm a person who
takes a quiz, like, you know,just like which Gray's anatomy
character are you?
You know, that kind of thing.
And there was a quiz that said,um, are you emotionally
unavailable?
I take this quiz fullyexpecting not to be seen as
emotionally unavailable.
And boom, it says I am.
And so I text a social workerfriend of mine, and I was like,
(30:33):
Do you think you think I'memotionally unavailable?
She's like, Yeah, I do.
And I was like, What?
I mean, angry, because I haveno capacity for this, like none.
I opened a huge can of wormswith this one little quiz.
And I was like, Can you give mean example?
Because this is new informationfor me.
And she's like, um, the way youretell your trauma.
(30:56):
And I was like, that hurtsbecause I'm funny.
Like, I legitimately did notrealize it wasn't normal to tell
these stories like you're astand-up comedian.
And I kind of had hopes ofbeing a stand-up comedian at
some point and using thosestories.
Like I could not do that now.
Yes, some of them are funny andI can tell them funny, but I'm
so connected to them in a waythat I never was before.
(31:18):
Like now there are certainstories that I used to be able
to tell with a smile on my facethat I can't tell without
crying.
You know what I mean?
So just there, I was sodisconnected, and so that was
kind of the beginning oflearning to try to be more
vulnerable, but notunderstanding what the what the
barrier to vulnerability andauthenticity really were.
(31:40):
Hence the reason I had a mentalhealth crisis.
So when I started to like movethe pieces of my life, I knew I
was quitting a toxic job.
And I was like, you know, I'vewanted to do this podcast, and I
and I wanted to do one with afriend at first because I didn't
feel like I was interestingenough to do it by myself.
(32:02):
And then I just was like, we'redoing it.
I'm doing it, I'm doing it.
And that was kind of my firststep too towards imperfection
and being okay with it because Isaid, perfect is the enemy of
good.
I like literally repeated thatphrase to myself all day, every
day, because I didn't want toget wrapped up in all the
pre-production stuff.
I wanted to start this thingfrom grassroots and it'd be I I
(32:26):
wanted people to see someone dosomething in a really ugly way
and watch it transform, youknow, and I have transformed.
The people on my show are whosaved me, truly.
Like I the the information Ihave received from them, it's
still, I mean, literally, I'mlearning every week.
You know, like I'm such astudent, and like I'm getting a
(32:48):
lot more comfortable saying,truly, this show is about me.
I mean, it's my journey tobecoming more emotionally
available, honestly.
Um, and that looks differentwith each guest depending on
their level of expertise or whatthey're bringing to my show,
you know.
I like a wide variety ofconversations.
Sometimes it's a medium,sometimes it's a therapist,
(33:10):
sometimes it's uh whatever, youknow.
Um, so you know, it's just adifferent connection point.
And I I really in inventoryingmy life asked, like, what lights
me up?
And it's connection in thisway.
And my former life lackedauthentic connection.
Like I was reliving that cyclethat we're all kind of
(33:33):
programmed with to connect viatalking badly about people,
gossiping, complaining.
That was the only way Iconnected, mostly complaining, a
lot of gossip.
I mean, I was I was just asguilty as anybody else of that.
And so that, you know, I'mreally comfortable saying like
this is kind of the onlyconversation I want to have.
(33:55):
And that makes me a little toomuch for people from my former
life.
So I'm, I mean, I would callmyself a little bit isolated,
but I don't feel, you know,there are times it feels a
little lonely or whateverbecause I don't have anyone
aside from like my husband orkids to go do things that I want
to do with a girlfriend.
You know what I mean?
But it's also fine because Ilike I just make new friends
(34:18):
through the internet and we havethese kind of conversations,
you know what I mean?
So that's really that's reallythe show.
I mean, and I have a reallygood time with it.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (34:26):
Yeah.
Uh I'm looking forward to beinga guest and seeing where our
conversation will go in there.
So um, and I thank you for, youknow, accepting because I sent
the message to you and asked ifwe would do a pod swap.
And you, you know, graciouslysaid yeah.
And so I'm like, okay, come on,and I will be on yours in a few
(34:48):
months.
And I really thank you forbeing vulnerable and doing the
alchemy, you know, taking thoseimpurities and turning them into
gold, yet not just keeping itfor yourself.
You're sharing it with othersin a world that wants
perfection, that wants it to alllook together.
It's like, what does healingout loud really look like?
(35:09):
Not when it's all perfect andin a box, a nice box, like the
book that I just wrote, uh, thatI have to actually, do you know
any editors that are liketrauma-informed or possibly
okay?
Well, we'll get that after therecording.
Yet the um the title is calledThe Gift Wrapped in Sandpaper,
(35:30):
Your Untamed Power.
Malisa Hepner (35:32):
Oh, I love this.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (35:33):
Yeah, so it's really um understanding
that sometimes we have certainlife experiences and we don't
see it as a gift, yet takingthat sandpaper and polishing it
off and getting off the edges,then we see the magnitude of the
gift.
And sometimes there's a giftand it's wrapped around
sandpaper and we don't want totouch it because that hurts and
(35:53):
it doesn't look pretty, where wedon't realize the depths of how
powerful that gift is.
So um really understanding, youknow, the work because when you
have been shaped by complextrauma or, you know, trauma,
there's a lot of work that goeson.
There's a lot of work to relateto yourself, to have compassion
(36:16):
for yourself, to bringsensitivity, to bring
vulnerability in there and notsee it as a threat, but your
body reads it as a threatbecause when you were young, you
weren't able to go into thosespaces.
You were harmed.
So automatically it's doing itsjob of protection and having to
do that rewiring and holdyourself accountable and you
(36:38):
know, still continue to chooseto lean in is like warrior work
that I say.
I know certain listeners andmyself, we heard mental health
crisis.
What did that look like foryou?
Malisa Hepner (36:55):
It looked like me making a plan to end my life
because I was just in a reallyhopeless place.
Um, you know, I now understandthat I was dealing with a lot of
subconscious shame.
I was a very reactive personand um really I self-identified
(37:16):
as mean.
I'm just mean and I don't knowhow to treat people and I talk
to people like crap andwhatever.
And it was not like everydaystrangers, I would freezer fawn
in conflict with with otherpeople, but with my family and
my close friends.
I had a very sharp tongue andit was very it I didn't think
before I spoke, it justhappened.
I was very reactive.
Um, but the I I got to where Ijust felt like my kids were
(37:39):
better off without me.
I truly believed that because Iwasn't perfect, because I
wasn't perfect, that's what Iunderstand now, is that I was
holding myself, you know, to afix of perfection, you know,
like it was not gonna ever beattained.
Um, and so because even then inin making a plan, I was still
(38:00):
trying to be considerate.
I was like, oh, well, my oldestkid's birthday's in a couple
weeks, so that's not cool.
And then I was literally goingthrough a calendar trying to
pick a date.
I was like, then it'sThanksgiving, then it's
Christmas, then it's the nextkid's birthday, then the next
kid's birthday.
So I picked a date that endedup being like 10 months away.
So within a few days, veryquickly, I was like, okay,
(38:22):
because the relief that thatmaking the decision that yes, I
was going to, setting the planin motion, having a date, that
brought such relief and andquieted the noise just enough to
be able to like chill for acouple of days and then get
clarity, which is like, okay, ifyou're going to make it to 10
(38:44):
months from now, something'sgotta give.
Like, we have to get better ifwe're even gonna make it to this
date.
And so as I kind of starteddoing whatever I could, I mean,
I was I was just kind ofborrowing information from the
internet, basically.
And I mean, and and it helped,I mean, it really did.
(39:05):
I was I was growing in the waythat I could at the time.
Um, and like I said, I I had aspiritual awakening during that
time too.
And so starting to just kind ofget different information
helped me move pieces, and I wasspending time creating in a way
that I had didn't even know Ihad like the capacity for.
(39:26):
So I was learning how to getlike in a flow state, and those
were like the the the littlebaby coping skills I had to get
through that time, and it therewas a lot of crying, wailing.
Like, even when I started myshow, those early episodes, my
voice is so raw from like cryingso much.
(39:46):
Cause like I'd be crying over atech issue right before, or for
a couple of hours before, overa tech issue and something else,
because like I just literallyhad no capacity for any stress.
I was just beat down.
I I just I it was like I wastruly at rock bottom and trying
to build, you know, up fromthere.
(40:07):
And so that's kind of that'skind of what I did was just
piece by piece built back.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (40:14):
Thank you.
Thank you for you know thecourage.
And I want to thank yourprotective system because to
make plans, there was a partthat was still advocating for
you.
Because suicidal ideation, whenyou're really in a dark place.
I had a friend that committedsuicide last year and she jumped
from her balcony.
Uh, she kept telling us, andwe, you know, listened and
(40:37):
everything else, yet it justovertook her, um, the voices and
everything else.
So I want to thank thatprotective system that still had
the engagement of still beingable to feel the pain because
people don't realize a littlestressor of something not going
right, it feels 10 times worsethan somebody that has a very
reactive nervous system that hasno capacity.
(40:59):
It's very painful.
It sends off all kinds ofsignals and shutting down and
everything else.
So it's like, I don't, youdon't want to feel that anymore.
Um and a lot of people don'tunderstand what that feels like,
especially if they've never hadto engage with their nervous
system that way.
It can be very difficult tohold space for understanding for
(41:20):
that because it's invisible.
Malisa Hepner (41:22):
Or even just if no one's ever shown up for them
when they needed them to, youknow, the way we dismiss others,
the way we've been dismissed,because we don't know how to
hold space for somebody ingeneral if no one's ever done it
for us.
Exactly.
And so, yeah, it was it wasrough.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (41:41):
Yeah, it was okay.
I'm uh mindful of time.
So I want to bring you into areflective question.
I want to ask you to go andtake this awareness right now
and go back to your 18-year-oldself.
Okay.
What are three words you wouldtell your 18-year-old self to
(42:03):
carry you to the journey ofright now?
Malisa Hepner (42:06):
You're always worthy.
Nice.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (42:09):
Those are powerful ones, very powerful
ones.
And I'm sure there was parts ofyou that would have said
bullshit um at the time, butstill reinforcing the message.
Very powerful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So where can the listeners findyou?
Malisa Hepner (42:26):
I'm super active on Instagram at Melissa.hepner.
My first name spelled a littleweird.
M-A-L-I-S-A.
My link tree is there for allof the things that I'm doing.
I create workbooks.
Um, I recently started this acouple of months ago, but I'm
releasing a new little instantdownload workbook every month.
And um like the first one wassafe to be seen, so that you can
(42:50):
start to kind of see parts ofyourself and just like, you
know, really slide into thatauthenticity piece, feeling more
in alignment.
I've got one aboutperfectionism.
Um, this next one releasing isjust like uh balance and
harmony, things like that.
Um, but that's all on my linktree.
And um both my Unquiet Soul,the other podcast, is not going
(43:15):
to release until October, Ithink, 7th.
But that will be on the LinkTree whenever it does.
But there's links to the twomajor platforms for emotionally
unavailable on my Linktree, butyou can get it wherever you
listen to podcasts.
Um, I have my if you'reinterested in my childhood
story, I have a book.
(43:35):
I have not promoted this verymuch at all because I wrote this
five years ago, but my book,um, Owning My Crazy, is on
Amazon.
I did release like a revamped,which just adds just a tiny bit
of like recovering from thatcrisis because I wanted it to be
released to a wider market, buttruly I only did that because I
had published on Amazon only,and people like acted as if I
(44:00):
wasn't a valid author becausethey couldn't find it at Barnes
and Noble.
So then I felt like I had tolike do that.
So truly, like, there's nopoint in buying the revamped
version at all.
I only did that because I waslike not secure enough in myself
to be like, and how many bookshave you published?
Okay.
So the owning my crazy, theoriginal one, is I like it.
(44:23):
I wrote it very much how Italk, and and kind of it's
funny, you'll see how stunted Iwas because like just the
limited information I knew abouthealing at the time was kind of
highlighted at the end, but itwas just about like my limited
understanding of nervous systemregulation.
But truly, I just wanted a wayto share my story.
Um, and so that's there.
I have some children's books ifif uh you know there are any
(44:45):
like school counselorslistening.
I wrote that from a very schoolcounselor perspective.
So um I have a journal onAmazon.
So yeah, that all of that is onthe link tree.
But um my website's on theretoo.
So if you want to connect withme one-on-one, that is on the
website.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (45:03):
So now with our conversation, I'd ask
you to go within yourself andfeel into what a listener may
need to feel empowered and whatwould that message be for them?
Malisa Hepner (45:19):
I would say that regardless, like it's great when
you can see the things thatstill need attention.
Like, and I I hope that you'realways going to find some new
layer that you need to quoteunquote work on or grow through
or whatever verbiage you want touse.
(45:39):
But don't let that make youforget that who you are right
now is perfect, like you'regreat, you you're already all
the things you're trying tobecome.
You we we need to unbecome morethan we need to become.
So, like, you don't have tostrive for a destination, and
(46:02):
that is sneaky.
Even when we sit here and saythere's no destination, I'm sure
tomorrow I will find a waywhere I thought there was a
destination again.
So take time to really sit andhonor who you are and every part
of you that got you to whereyou are right now.
They are all magical, and whoyou are right here, right now is
(46:24):
full of all the magic you'reever gonna need.
So, you know, I like I justencourage people to just put
their hand over their heart andjust love themselves and say,
Thank you.
I love you, you're great.
We're doing great because thewhole human experience is
supposed to be imperfect.
So if you are imperfect, you'redoing a really good job.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (46:46):
I want to thank you for having such an
enlightening and wonderfulconversation.
It was a breath of fresh air ofthe transparency, the
vulnerability, and the livedexperience that you have to
offer to other people.
And like I said, you're doingthe alchemy, you've taken those
impurities and you'vetransformed them into gold, and
(47:07):
you just didn't keep it foryourself.
You're sharing it with others.
So thank you for being such abright light in this world.
I am greatly appreciative thatwe are connected.
Malisa Hepner (47:18):
Me too.
And thank you so much forhaving me.
I had such a good time withyou.
LiftOneSelf - NatNat Be (47:22):
Please remember to be kind to yourself.
Hey, you made it all the wayhere.
I appreciate you and your time.
If you found value in thisconversation, please share it
out.
If it was somebody that poppedinto your mind, take action and
share it out with them.
It possibly may not be themthat will benefit.
(47:43):
It's that they know somebodythat will benefit from listening
to this conversation.
So please take action and shareout the podcast.
You can find us on socialmedia, on Facebook, Instagram,
and TikTok under LiveOneself.
And if you want to inquireabout the work that I do and the
(48:03):
services that I provide topeople, come over on my website.
Come into a discovery calllived oneself.com.
Until next time, pleaseremember to be kind and handle
with yourself.
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