February 22, 2024 • 44 mins
“O, Ye of Little Faith, Father” and “All About Eve” bring some of Emily’s favorite moments of the whole series. The first provides deeply satisfying dramatic irony through Father Kinley’s (Graham McTavish) web of deception, the whole of which, only we the viewers see. The second gives delicious comfort to a devastated Lucifer (Tom Ellis) who fears he is unlovable but is embraced–in his devil face–by the biblical Eve (Inbar Lavi).
There are also significant opportunities for overthinking, from Eve’s name (with a correction and apology from Tracie at the beginning of the episode) to just how much the murderer knew of the whole plot to reveal Lucifer’s face, to how and when Linda acquired her house. As always the storytelling, including visual storytelling, gets the sisters’ attention.
In what might be called a theme, Tracie spends a little time complaining that Lauren German’s delivery as Chloe somehow doesn’t sell the dialogue, and both sisters get a chuckle over Maze’s condolences over the sex of the baby.
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Tracy here.
This is embarrassing.
In this episode that you'reabout to listen to, I go off on
a tangent about Eve's name and Igot it wrong.
Eve's name, the biblical Eve,was Chava, and it says in the
(00:20):
text she's called that becauseshe's the mother of all living,
which would be Chaya, and thetwo words must be related.
But it wasn't Chaya, so myapologies for leading you astray
.
However, my story about themisplaced vowel on the pronoun
(00:42):
remains.
Is it why she's called Eve inEnglish?
Maybe it's my headcanon as towhy.
Anyway, I hope you'll forgiveme.
Enjoy this episode.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Hey there, I am here with my sister Tracy Guy Decker
yes, hyphen.
And I'm here with my sisterEmily Guy Birken no, hyphen.
And together we are doinglightbringers, where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
.
And you bet your sweet Bippy,we are overthinking it.
(01:36):
Yeah, yeah, that's what we do,so much overthinking.
So today we're talking abouttwo of the episodes I have seen
more than any other 403 and 404.
Oh you have little faith, father, and all about Eve.
I'm so excited to talk aboutthese episodes, so I know you've
(01:57):
got kind of a major complaint.
Do we want to start with thator we want to start with, like
the good stuff?
No, let's start with FatherKinley and all of the webs of
deception in oh you have LittleFaith, father, because there's
(02:18):
the dramatic irony which I talkabout all the time is something
I particularly enjoy.
Dramatic irony in that episodeis pretty intense with what we
know that no one in the wholecast knows all of what we know
which is kind of cool with theway that Father Kinley is trying
(02:44):
to deceive Lucifer, while Chloeis also keeping things from him
.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
So that's sort of an interesting let's start Well.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
and then what Father Kinley is also keeping from his
superior, the monk senior, I'mnot sure.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah, I don't know what his rank is?
Speaker 1 (03:06):
I don't really know.
Grandmaster this is Pokemon inthe Catholic Church, but yeah,
so, and then what he's keepingfrom the man he activated as the
murderer, oscar Rivas, who Ihave to.
I feel so bad for that guy,even though it was awful that he
(03:29):
was willing to kill innocentpeople without proof that they
were not innocent, and the thingis like what they were accused
of was just backsliding on druguse and stealing.
Yeah, yeah, I don't, and it'sunclear to me whether or not he
(03:49):
actually believes that.
Yeah, that's what he tellsLucifer, because that was.
It's unclear to me whether ornot Rivas actually believes that
they were guilty of thosethings.
That was part of the deceptionwas to, yeah, was that they were
punished for backsliding, thatthat had to be part of the
deceptive.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Well, they were irredeemable, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
But whether or not, that Oscar actually believed
that.
Believe that I mean he may havethought of it the same way,
it's unclear to me whether ornot he he was in on the whole
planet.
I mean he may have genuinelybelieved, as Father Kimley did,
that these were unfortunatenecessary sacrifices to the good
.
Yeah, yeah, I did notice onthis rewatch that now,
(04:41):
unfortunately, we're getting tothe the stretch of episodes
where the first the first personthey interviewed was the dead.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
One interview turned out to be the killer.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah, so 40 minute show.
I'll give it to them.
It's not a big deal, but Inoticed on this rewatch that
when they are interviewing Oscar, he says to Lucifer I want to
make sure that you punish theperson who did this.
He said he says promise me,promise me, yes.
(05:13):
And he said he looks Lucifer inthe eye when he says it.
Yeah, so, and knowing that it'shimself, I'm like, wow, yeah,
yikes.
So so he knew Kimley's plan,that this was an attempt to get
Lucifer to show his face.
I, maybe, because I'm aPollyanna I was thinking like he
(05:38):
was convinced to do it becausehe thought these people were
irredeemable.
But now that you say that, I'mlike, no, it would make more
sense that if he was just in onit, which is so despicable I
mean, that's the way I read itBecause because, uh, okay,
kimley says about him to he wasa good man, he was a good man,
he was a true believer and hedid what was necessary.
(06:00):
Yeah, so I?
Because, because, frankly, atrue believer would not accept
that someone was trash, thatsomeone, that a human being was
irredeemable.
Mm, hmm, I mean that justdoesn't align with who he was
supposed to have been.
(06:20):
So you know, serving in aparish in El Salvador, that that
that served folks who who were,you know, off the path that the
church should be.
It just doesn't align.
It makes more sensepsychologically to me.
Yeah, yeah, that he was in on it, had drunk the Kool-Aid and
(06:43):
thought that this was for thegreater good.
Yeah, no, that that makes totalsense.
This is, this is me being toomuch of an optimist.
So that, and his, uh, his,method of suicide.
Oh, my God, I I have notwatched this as many times as
(07:04):
you have and but that I was like, oh, it's coming, it's coming.
Yeah, I skip that, I skip that.
It's so awful.
Yeah, well, because it.
Oh, how do you know how they,they did it, the, the effects I
don't want to know.
Like, oh, yeah, yeah, so, um,whoo, but that's like the layers
(07:31):
upon layers that uh, kinley hasgoing.
And when Chloe realizes, likethis is, you're not actually
being sanctioned part of theVatican this is sanctioned.
Thank you, that's the word I waslooking for.
This is your own personalvendetta.
(07:52):
It kind of makes a lot ofthings make sense about the
character and his motivationsand why he's willing to be so
Machiavelli in getting whatever.
Yeah, that that actor does anawesome job to like really,
really believe, like the justthe cold calculating, but also
(08:12):
that he's a good act like thefather.
Kinley is a good actor to be inLucifer's presence.
Yeah, even like small things,like Lucifer touches him on the
shoulder and as he walks awayhe's, like you know, like
brushes his, yeah, yeah.
And there are like moments toothat like Lucifer puts out a
cigarette in like a baptismalfont or something, and there's,
(08:36):
it's very subtle, but they'relike I did read the disgust in
Kinley from the actor's deliveryof just being in the presence
of that happening.
It was, he's a good actor.
The other, yeah, the othermoment that was just phenomenal
was in the jail cell.
When his superior comes to takehis confession and breaks it to
(09:01):
him that he's beenexcommunicated, the way that
like his face freezes and thenlike it falls in a way where
it's like I cannot show how muchthis is bothering me.
It's just I Way to go, grandma,you're awesome, you're a really
good actor, yeah.
And then, and that's the moment, we get the actual prophecy,
(09:22):
which has been referenced before, but we haven't heard it yet.
So the prophecy is that whenthe devil walks the earth and
meets his first love, evil shallbe released.
So I think that's reallyinteresting that we get that too
, because we will.
We will see that happen, butspecifically because of Kim
Lee's efforts to avoid it, whichis so satisfying as a viewer.
(09:45):
It's the Macbeth satisfaction ofthings.
It is totally the Macbethsatisfaction of things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, if you'd justleft well enough alone.
That was what happened,mackinley.
Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly,although that's in the future,
but that's in the future.
I will say I wish they'd spenta little more time on the
(10:06):
prophecy, because the wordingjust doesn't sound like.
So you've got the like.
You know we were talking aboutthe vile last week and how it's,
you know it's the sacred vile.
Well, it's interesting that itwas like about the size of a
plum, yeah, and then Lucifercaused it a plum vile for the
rest of the show.
But like, yeah, yeah, who usesa plum as a huge measure?
(10:29):
I mean, did Kim Lee used to dooncology?
I did, that's right.
We're like pregnancy stuff,because that's not the place
where you measure things byfruit.
But I mean, to be fair, in theHebrew scriptures, like there's
a lot of halacha, that's likehow much?
How much matzah do you have toeat on Passover?
(10:51):
About the size of an olive,like there is actually a like a
unit of measure Well, fruits andvegetables, not plums,
specifically Not plums.
But it stood out to me this timeyeah, the size of a plum,
especially because I justrecently had a bunch of plums
(11:11):
and they were different sizesand bigger than that.
Vile, frankly, yeah, yeah.
So the thing with the prophecyis it felt like the language
should have been more, and nowsome of this is my older kid
(11:32):
really had.
He really likes fantasy novelsthat feature a prophecy, like
that is, that is his genre andso and he is very much into the
rhyming prophecies, which I'mnot I'm not going for that.
I don't want it to be rhymingnecessarily.
(11:52):
Well, it's just because Iwouldn't have been written in
English.
Yes, rhymes don't translate, no, but it just doesn't.
It just seems toostraightforward.
You know it just I don't know.
I just wish they'd spend alittle more time to make it a
little bit more like.
You know, if we're going tohave the holy hand grenade at
(12:14):
the sacred plum vile, we canhave the flowery prophecy too.
Yeah, just so anyway.
And I do appreciate thesuperior's response at the end,
where he's like, even if you'reright, how do you know?
How do we know that Chloe is hisfirst love?
(12:35):
Like you know, he has beenaround for how many thousands of
years.
This is ridiculous, Right,which?
And the that priest doesn'tactually believe that Lucifer
Morningstar is the devil, Right,you know, he's just poking
holes, Just like making sure,like, can you please recognize
how ridiculous you're being?
(12:55):
And also in the storytelling,like then Kinley could say well,
who else could it be?
So that we would be answeringthat question, so that we would
think, and then they give us theother clues with the fact that
she wanted an apple Appletini,and then there was a thing of
apples right next to her.
So they I mean that they alsodid that so that we could come
(13:19):
along with them as theyintroduced the first.
And I think, like that was thatwas really good writing, Like I
really appreciated how they didthat.
It was, it was.
So you want to overthink Eve'sname?
I do.
I do Because it wasn't.
Even this is like.
This is a classic, liketranslation issue, Actually with
(13:43):
pronouns.
So you think that confusionaround pronouns is recent.
It ain't Like.
I won't go into all of thedetails because it just gets.
It gets really deep in theweeds.
But her name was Chaya, becauseshe was the mother of all
living.
Like Chaya, like Chaya, likeChaya, Like Chaya, Life yeah Her
name was Chaya and then at onepoint it's it talks about her
(14:07):
and some scribe put the word forthe male pronoun, which is, and
wrote it.
And of course there are novowels in the text.
And somebody else was like itshouldn't be male, it should be
female.
So they put the vowel under itfor the female pronoun, but it
(14:28):
still had the consonants for themale pronoun, so it became Eve,
If you read it with the vowelsand the pronouns as written.
And then that became Eve, soit's a typo.
The name Eve is a typo.
It is not a name, it is a weirdconglomeration of the male and
(14:53):
female pronouns.
Third person pronouns inancient.
Hebrew it ain't a name.
She would never have gone byEve.
I mean, neither would thearchangel have gone by Lucifer.
We did that over thinking backin the first season and so
(15:15):
whatever.
But it just yeah.
It just also also, who elsecould it have been?
Lilith came before Eve or Haya.
Lilith was first and if youaccept the Lilith Apocrypha
(15:39):
which this show does, shepredates Eve so and she had a.
She definitely had arelationship with the devil,
which I'll get into even morewhen we meet her.
But this whole like, who elsecould it be?
There were at least two otheroptions and it was not the first
(16:00):
one.
In fact I was.
I was telling a friend of minewho's a rabbi about this show
and how much I love it and shewas like, well, why was so great
?
And I was like, well, kind ofpulls in on stuff, and like
there's one part where there's aprophecy about the devil's
first love, and she says, oh,you mean Lilith.
And I was like, well, at leastin Jewish sources, the devil's
first love, no question, lilith.
(16:23):
So yeah, okay, anyway, that'smy little like rabbit hole for a
moment.
To continue on the rabbit hole,just the, the male pronoun that
became Eve, eve and then Eve byaccident.
What was it referring to, anddoes it change the story at all?
It was referring to Haya,that's I mean.
(16:45):
That's why it got changed.
So it was.
It's very context.
Somebody just screwed up andthey they should have put a Yod,
the little short, it's a Y, andinstead they put a Vav, which
is the long straight line, andso it's just, it's just the
wrong.
It's a long letter.
It's a typo.
It's a typo, it's, it's.
The context is clear that itmeans her, which is why a later.
(17:09):
But they can't change it.
They can't actually change theletters.
And so the Maserai to put thevowels in for us.
But in the vow, that would havebeen right for the Yod for the
female third person pronoun, butwhen you read it with that Vav,
it says heave instead of he.
It's very confusing.
In Hebrew he is she, who is heand me is who.
(17:34):
So English to Hebrew veryconfusing.
But Gotcha, okay, just the waythat you said it, I was.
I was thinking it might havebeen like it was a he and it was
confusing as to who wasreferring to.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
No, it's very clear.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
My recollection is and it only happens one time,
but my recollection is that thecontext is pretty clear, that
the story means Haya, means weknow, call you.
Which is why the Maserai feltconfident in saying, oh, it says
who, but you should read it ashe and here's the vow for he.
But if you just read it andyou're not making that
(18:12):
correction, it reads as he.
That makes sense.
All right, very cool, I love it.
This is what we're doing, thisfor.
This is why we have this entirechannel.
Yeah, yeah, for theoverthinking, so much
overthinking, so I like.
Speaking of Eve, I would liketo talk about her character,
(18:34):
because I feel like she's got athing that in Barlavi that the
actress has a thankless job andshe nails it because, like she
comes in and this is the fourthseason, people are very much
Decker Star Shippers and she isin the way but instead of just
being, like you know, a bigblock of nothing in the way,
(18:57):
like Pierce, she is thisincredible, like likable,
engaging, interesting characterwho is both understandable why
she does what she does, the waythat she does things and flawed,
and and just I, just I love Eve.
(19:22):
I love the character of Eve.
I love the way that they theywrote her and the way that in
Barlavi plays her.
She is also like 150 percent myhusband's type and I was like
trying to get, just just get toseason four and you can just
(19:44):
just drill.
We'll drill together and not somuch, you know.
I think even more than maybenot even more.
I agree Lavi does a great joband also I think our writers did
a great job because, yes, thatespecially like we, chloe isn't
(20:05):
sure that he's devastated.
She thinks he's probably fine.
He's out there living it up.
We see differently.
He's drunk every drop of thatwall of scotch in the in the
penthouse and has gone down tothe party to get more and is
like just in his under, likehe's not entertaining women in
the penthouse, he's justdrinking himself into oblivion.
He is a wreck because she can'taccept him or fully who he is.
(20:30):
And so when Eve is like no, I'mhere for you, and he's certain
she is going to reject him inthe same way because he is
unlovable in his mind, and shejust like, doesn't avert her
eyes, takes him by the you knowthe either side of the face and
(20:50):
kisses him in the devil face.
It is what he needed.
He felt unlovable.
Yeah, and so it's.
I think our writers did areally good job of like, yeah,
I'm total team Decker star andalso like that's what Lucy
(21:14):
needed.
It is.
He needed someone to say I seeall of you.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
And I'm okay with it.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
I think you're amazing, all of you Uh-huh, yeah
, yeah.
And the fact that she kisseshim while he still has the
double face.
It actually reminded me ofsomething completely ridiculous.
But have you seen Deadpool?
I haven't, okay.
So the story of Deadpool is RyanReynolds who, like he plays
(21:44):
Wade Wilson, but he's actuallyRyan Reynolds in every party.
He's in love with a woman.
They're going to spend theirlives together.
He gets diagnosed with likehorrible cancer that it's just
going to boom, kill him, and sohe leaves.
Anyway, this group wants him toto try to see if he can.
(22:05):
They can cure his cancer butalso make him a superhero, and
in doing that, they likecompletely mess up his face,
like he just gets ugly and gross, and so he doesn't go back to
Vanessa, first because he'safraid that she'll reject him,
and then, like he's just allkinds of stuff.
At the end of the film, when helike they're finally back
(22:27):
together again, he has like he'swearing his mask.
He pulls it off for her to seeand she's like you know what,
after a brief, you know gettinggetting used to it, period, that
is a hate face I will happilysit on, cause that's the kind of
movie it is, and so it remindedme of that.
(22:48):
Where it's it's like you knowit's not about like, yeah, ryan
Reynolds is a remarkablyhandsome man and no, he does.
He looks like a thumb afteryou've, after it's been in the
water for a while, after the,the, the, you know the stuff
that they do to him.
The same thing with withLucifer.
Where it's like I like you,it's not about what your face
(23:11):
looks like.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yeah and how important that is for anyone to
hear yeah, yeah and the.
The other thing I appreciateabout Eve is they very easily
could have made her like thesexy baby trope Cause there is
the, the naivete and the badaspect of it, but she's not
(23:34):
helpless and she's not like,like she's enthusiastic but
she's like, she's helpful andlike.
The stuff that she wants to tryare really like, cool and
interesting, like, oh, I get tobash him in the balls but and
and so like.
There is some of the like, sexy, ingenue about her, but it's
(23:59):
not of the like, oh, I'm sohelpless, it's more of the like
I am just have, I'minexperienced.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I haven't done that before.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
I want to, I want to try it, yeah, yeah.
And, like you know, she figuredout a way to get to to Los
Angeles from the dusty old tomb.
She woke up, right, right,which is remarkable, right, yeah
, yeah, yeah.
So she's always been kind of arule breaker, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Yeah, all right.
So I, I just so appreciate thethe, because there are so many
ways that this could have gottenmisogynistically.
Yes, and it does not.
Okay, I want to talk about.
I want to talk about LaurenGerman's performance and then I
think we should move on to theother episode.
(24:53):
So, specifically, when theyfinally like get to the heart of
the matter and he's like youknow why are you lying to me and
whatever.
And they, they have that sortof confrontation and and she,
you know why, how could you dothis to me?
And her response is because I'mterrified and she, she sort of
(25:18):
barks it.
There's something about thatscene that doesn't read to me
and it's not the dialogue.
The dialogue, I think, is goodand I don't know if it's because
I know like there are.
We talked offline about thefact that there are a bunch of
people who speculate about whatkind of work she had done
between seasons and in general.
(25:39):
I don't want to talk about herappearance in that way, but I
wonder if she lost some nuancein her facial expression because
of whatever, if in fact she hadthat work done, because it just
it didn't.
It doesn't hang together for me.
And in the future there'sanother episode in the future
when she again is like I'm notfalling apart.
(25:59):
We'll talk about it when we getthere.
But that one really upsets mebecause it just doesn't work.
But this one is the like, alongwith when we spoke last time
about her recoil they're bothoveracted and underacted at the
same time.
And I don't know how to like Idon't quite know how to
articulate it, but that's it.
(26:20):
It's overacted in the maybe inthe volume and underacted in the
nuance.
I think that's the way I'mgoing to articulate what bothers
me about German's performancein those moments.
I don't think it's the dialogue, although I'm a words person
and so maybe maybe I'm I'm beingmore generous with the words
(26:43):
than, but I don't know.
It's just something about thatmoment and again, we said it
last time, like Ellis is such anactor of subtlety you know Well
, the, the look on his face andthe like, the, the, the tears in
his eyes that have not fallenare like oh.
(27:05):
And even the way that he says,you know, when she says I don't
know, and he says I guess I havemy answer, there's something
that just, I just believe it'sjust heartbreaking.
Yeah, and I don't believe herdelivery.
And it's not that I don'tbelieve the words, because I
believe that she's terrified anddoesn't know what to think and
all of this messages, but sheremembered, like, the things she
(27:28):
says I believe, and herdelivery I just didn't believe.
Yeah.
So, anyway, I'm sorry to thosemore German fans who might be
watching.
Yeah, she has her strengths andI think as the as the show went
(27:50):
on, it got a little further andfurther away from her strengths
.
Yes, I agree, because I reallybought her as the hard boiled,
like completely repressed.
I bought her as that Hug, biteand sink her.
Yeah, like that worked for me.
Yeah, it's these moments whereshe needs to actually tap into
(28:10):
emotion that I just don't.
We struggle and I'll see it.
We struggle with it and I'llsee it.
So I do want to talk about soin that, because we've kind of
back and forth between episodes.
But in oh Father, oh you Little, oh you Little Faithfather, we
were talking before we startedrecording about Linda's advice
to Lucifer in that episode.
(28:33):
That really bothers me.
So she was saying like, okay,you think that she has betrayed
you and if you accuse her youcan't unring that bell.
That's good advice, that istrue.
So, like you know, just as in amarriage, if you say like you
cheated on me, you can't, andLinda says that, unsay it.
But she then said so, feel herout gently.
(28:56):
And it's just like well, no,that doesn't make sense and
that's not good advice.
Instead, it would make moresense to be like look, I need to
talk to you about something.
A man named Father Kinleyreached out to me and has said
that you have been in touch witheach other and I don't
understand what's going on.
Can you help me understand?
And like, being straightforwardabout it is what an actual
(29:18):
therapist would recommend, Ibelieve.
And so like no, the feel it outis what you need, what the
story needed, okay, but like butthey don't.
They never stuck by thatbecause he never follows her
advice.
Yeah, he never follows heradvice.
Yeah, now, he always twists itinto what he wants to do.
(29:41):
So, yeah, you know, if she hadsaid, like, don't accuse her,
but just ask her, you knowwhat's up with this.
And he had said feel her out,that's right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so you know, if she's justlike I don't know, he's like, oh
, I'm like, let's do something,or whatever, whatever the line
is, you know, because that'sultimately what he does is the
try to.
You know, you're Andrew's Brodyin this this is a very tough
(30:05):
yeah.
Well, and even though oh, what'sthis?
It's perfume.
I have drunk something worse,you know like, instead of saying
like, look, I know what this is, you know like and that's I.
It's just, it's a an odd moment.
There's one other that's likewe've talked about and we'll get
to it later that I'm reallyupset at the showrunners for,
(30:28):
because I think that it's badlyServes people who actually deal
with that, that particularmental health issue.
We'll get there.
But this is another one whereI'm like this is bad advice,
whereas normally it seems likethey are putting good advice in
Linda's mouth.
So, but I do want to talk aboutLinda has a house.
(30:52):
Yeah, because in the firstseason she and Lucifer were
doing it in her office in apullout on like a sofa bed.
Yeah, so, like you know, andwell, my head cannon on that is
that she had been like stayingin the Office while she and
Reese were getting divorced andnow that he's dead, like the
(31:12):
house is hers.
Oh, you think it was.
Oh, that's my head cannon.
That's interesting, okay, justbecause it feels like.
What's interesting too is likethe house feels like a Linda
house like, and then I could seeit's also very a la.
To me it feels like that's true.
That's true, it is very la that.
(31:32):
So we talked last time about howthe Director, sherwin Shaladi,
does such a good job.
He directed all about Eve,which is the one where we see
Linda's house for the first time, and and there are two moments
that I want to point out, whichis the they come back from
seeing the doctor.
(31:53):
It's the first time or well,not a story doctor, but the
ultrasound tech, the first timethey've that.
We've actually seen Linda'shouse and a menendial is just
excited like Boy, can't we teachthem all kinds of things?
And like you see her stand andstare up at the ceiling fan and
you see the ceiling fan liketurning.
It's this really cool effectand you know exactly what she's
(32:14):
thinking.
So, like that it's just reallywell done.
Visual storytelling it reallyis.
The other thing that all Sherwindid nicely is that that bite
scene, fight scene in the bar inDalton's place with that song.
(32:37):
I love that song.
It's something like riding alightning bolt, is like the, the
, yeah, the chorus, and oh, mygoodness, it's just so fun.
That's actually really goodwhen we and when we meet Eve,
it's Portis head Tentris.
This is bad for me.
Yeah, that's a great back tocollege, yeah, yeah, well, and
(33:05):
the like.
The introduction of her likepanning over now I can't Like
overthinking it.
I'm like with the bartenderwhen he's saying, sure you, you
don't want to stay like it'srocking tonight, it's you know
Like well, while on earth, whatI want to do that and he looks
over and we're supposed tobelieve he could see Eve from
all the way over in the bar andthat huge crowded room.
I Don't know if that's whatwe're supposed to believe her if
he was just kind of like ingeneral, there's lots of hot
(33:27):
women here, I think, though, butthose it was specific Lee, her,
she was sort of the center.
Yeah, she was, she was, but theway that they pan, over
everything.
And then the way that they thatpause and then, like, all of a
sudden she's jumping up and downand oh yeah, because the tempo
changes.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
The tempo is to have time, and then all of a sudden
it comes back up to yeah, yeah,that's pretty, that's pretty and
the the choreography of that.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
It's beautiful, really, really well done.
Yeah, it's beautiful, althoughI think that's a good thing.
Yeah, I think that's a goodthing.
Yeah, it's beautiful, althoughan overthinking.
Is it really cold in elucifer'spenthouse because, like two
minutes later she's like nosweat whatsoever?
Yeah, so also, how did thatwhite dress stay?
(34:14):
Still stay so nice?
Yeah, at least 48 hours longer.
Yeah, because the implicationsshe had woken up with it, yeah,
which I don't think it wouldhave survived 5,000 years or
whatever.
Oh, did you think?
Because I didn't think thatshe'd necessarily woken up with.
I figured she figured out a wayto get it, because those red
heels, definitely.
She definitely did not wake upwith the red heels, that's true.
(34:35):
Yeah, I interrupted you talkingabout the choreography of the
bar fight.
Oh, yes, I think it wasRemarkable and beautiful and
used a lot of actually that samesort of like slow motion, like
and then up to and just the waythat they have the choreography
of Tom Ellis has Lucifer kind ofjust like easily like bobbing
(34:59):
and weaving out of the way oflike chairs and pull cues and
Punches and things.
It was pretty cool, I mean yeah,well, and they, they all the
extras, get in on it too.
So like there's a guy who atone point he just brushes glass
off.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Yeah, he's sitting at the bar.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
He's sitting at the bar.
Yeah, yeah, I saw him.
He's just like, oh, and then,and the bartender like cleaning
the bar, and then the waitresswho like stops somebody who's
gonna hit, even then, yeah,they're like go power.
And.
And then also all all throughthat, with Eve's reaction, which
is just like I feel, yoursister, yeah, particularly since
(35:41):
he's doing it specifically forher.
Yeah, because he was not gonnafight until someone tried to to
take her.
Yeah, right, so, and I'm like,yeah, yeah, I feel that
definitely, yeah, yeah, so eventhe way that it ends where we
hear Chloe's voice and then thething goes through his shoulder
and then the oh, detective, oh,my goodness, yeah, yeah, I.
(36:11):
This is probably one of One ofthe episodes I've seen most
often.
I've come back to it again andagain, and again because it is
just a delight, even like littlemoments like the, the
ultrasounds with May's freakingout, when the gel flips toward
the camera, I laughed out loud.
And then she, like she sniffsit and licks it, like all right.
(36:32):
And then when they, like I did,having had two ultrasounds that
Revealed I was having a boy,like that's not how you, like,
it's not in the side view, yougotta get get underneath the
side view unless he's very wellin the middle of the video.
You gotta get get underneaththe side view.
(36:53):
Unless he's very well endowed,you're not gonna see anything,
whatever.
But yeah, overthinking.
But when not when they're likehaving a boy and and May's is
immediately like I don't looknext time.
Oh my gosh, I love this episodeso much and the ultrasounds,
(37:17):
like it's usually only one penis.
I was looking for the way, whichalso reminded me do you
remember this?
When, um, um, we first foundout that we were having our
eldest, um, and like we didn'tknow yet whether we were having
a boy or a girl, you sent me acard saying like you were so
(37:39):
excited and it was the card saidlike 10 little fingers and 10
little toes and wings wingswould be cool too.
I think I still have itsomewhere.
So it's all kinds of just Greatstuff in both these episodes
the the first of these I don'trewatch as often because it is a
(38:00):
little brutal the little look,I definitely skip over the scene
.
Oh man, the scene in the house,that Oscar by the Catholic
Church, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then even Ella, like I readbeef kebabs.
Again, I'm like Ella, seriously, no, I'm usually behind you on
anything you have to say, but no, oh, um, I do want to say I
(38:23):
need her.
Her t-shirt, the one with theunicorn and the rainbows is
heavy metal.
I need that t-shirt, it must bemine, it will be mine.
So, okay, I'm watching the timeand I actually have to retrieve
my progeny, um, spring offspring.
So I'm gonna Say any finalthings that you have to say
(38:46):
about all about eve.
Hmm, I don't think so.
Okay, I think we're good.
Fluff, fluff, fluff.
Do you have Fluff?
Oh my gosh, I had something init.
Well, we both noticed, beforewe hit record, that when Lucifer
is falling apart, there arefriggin' holes in his sock.
(39:08):
He's walking around in just hisunderwear and the robe and socks
and you can see his toes.
Yeah, you can see his toespeeking out.
Well done, costumer.
We noticed Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yes, oh, I know Another fluffwhen they were talking about it
(39:29):
to Beshear Like we're not acouple, but we used to be.
You might have read about it inthe Bible, yeah, although it
wasn't really an apple, it wasmore of a banana, right, and so
I know that they're not actuallytalking about fruit, but I'm
going like the modern Cavendishbanana has only been around for
a few hundred years.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
There was no such fruit thousands of years ago.
We had to cross pollinatethings yeah, genetically
engineer it, yeah, geneticallyengineer the current banana.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Which is in the, which is in Jeopardy what used
to be a banana was full of seeds.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yeah, so I know that that's not the point.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah, that wasn't what they were talking about.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
I mean, she could have said it was an eggplant,
based on today's emoji language.
So you know she wasn't talkingabout it.
I know it's just, it was justlike I like this.
But also, you know, applesdidn't exist.
No, I've read that it was maybemore like a quince, which I
don't even know what that is.
So who knows, who knows?
(40:37):
So, so that's that's myoverthinking it.
So you know the very largebanana, it's true.
And then Bashir is like I haveno idea what you two are talking
about.
Also, I kind of like Bashir.
He's just like the concierge ofcrime and he's just like I just
(40:57):
want to, you know, sit in thesauna and or not the sauna.
He's in a hot tub, drinkingmojitos and offering olives to
anybody who comes by.
He's just giving his wifeexpensive necklaces.
I've been his best life.
I mean, yeah, he does, he doesbeat people up, but but he
(41:20):
doesn't kill them.
So he doesn't kill them.
Yeah, no footing anybodywithout my permission first.
Oh, also, Tobi Golden and PabloSilva made Golden Silva
Jewelers, which is, I think,either like brilliance or awful
Brilliant.
There's no in between.
I'm going brilliant.
(41:41):
I'm going brilliant.
Oh, you know what else?
Okay, so one more overthinkingmoment, when Dan just like
struts into the low sexes HQ andthey're like whatever they're
(42:01):
talking, smack and stuff.
And then they started speakingin Spanish and he looks kind of
confused and I was like, doesn'tDan speak Spanish?
Yeah, he does.
I mean, they've made that clearbefore.
I thought that was a little bitodd.
He's just like, well, maybe hewasn't confused, but he's kind
of had this like I don't knowthat moment, like I was waiting
(42:23):
for him to speak Spanish backand he didn't come.
So I was a little disappointedthat that didn't happen in that
scene, that particular moment.
Yeah, I was like I was waitingfor Dan Esposito to come back
with Spanish, but Espinoza, oh,thank you, Espinoza.
(42:48):
I knew it didn't sound right.
I knew it didn't sound right.
So one other thing they used anactual phone number for Dan's
number for the Chewbaccachallenge.
Oh, really, yeah, I noticed,because it wasn't a 555 number.
It always takes me out.
It immediately takes me out ofthe show.
And this I was looking at it,looking for the 555.
(43:09):
I'm like that's not a 555.
That's a real phone number.
Yes, I love it.
I wonder, if I call it, whatwould happen.
Maybe you'll get a Chewbaccamessage, or maybe I can leave a
Chewbacca message.
I don't know.
That's pretty fine, all right,I really got to go, so I'm going
to go pick up the phone.
Yeah, go pick up the phone.
I'm going to pick up the phone.
I'm going to pick up the phone.
I'm going to pick up the phone.
Yeah, go pick up your child.
(43:31):
Elementary school pick up.
Man.
Yes, it's rough out there.
It's rough out there in thesestreets.
I want you See you next week.
See you next week.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Our theme song is Ferrel Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetentcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(44:06):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
with them and visit the shownotes for other ways to connect.
Tracy here.
This is embarrassing.
In this episode that you'reabout to listen to, I go off on
a tangent about Eve's name and Igot it wrong.
Eve's name, the biblical Eve,was Chava, and it says in the
(00:20):
text she's called that becauseshe's the mother of all living,
which would be Chaya, and thetwo words must be related.
But it wasn't Chaya, so myapologies for leading you astray
.
However, my story about themisplaced vowel on the pronoun
(00:42):
remains.
Is it why she's called Eve inEnglish?
Maybe it's my headcanon as towhy.
Anyway, I hope you'll forgiveme.
Enjoy this episode.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Hey there, I am here with my sister Tracy Guy Decker
yes, hyphen.
And I'm here with my sisterEmily Guy Birken no, hyphen.
And together we are doinglightbringers, where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
.
And you bet your sweet Bippy,we are overthinking it.
(01:36):
Yeah, yeah, that's what we do,so much overthinking.
So today we're talking abouttwo of the episodes I have seen
more than any other 403 and 404.
Oh you have little faith, father, and all about Eve.
I'm so excited to talk aboutthese episodes, so I know you've
(01:57):
got kind of a major complaint.
Do we want to start with thator we want to start with, like
the good stuff?
No, let's start with FatherKinley and all of the webs of
deception in oh you have LittleFaith, father, because there's
(02:18):
the dramatic irony which I talkabout all the time is something
I particularly enjoy.
Dramatic irony in that episodeis pretty intense with what we
know that no one in the wholecast knows all of what we know
which is kind of cool with theway that Father Kinley is trying
(02:44):
to deceive Lucifer, while Chloeis also keeping things from him
.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
So that's sort of an interesting let's start Well.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
and then what Father Kinley is also keeping from his
superior, the monk senior, I'mnot sure.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah, I don't know what his rank is?
Speaker 1 (03:06):
I don't really know.
Grandmaster this is Pokemon inthe Catholic Church, but yeah,
so, and then what he's keepingfrom the man he activated as the
murderer, oscar Rivas, who Ihave to.
I feel so bad for that guy,even though it was awful that he
(03:29):
was willing to kill innocentpeople without proof that they
were not innocent, and the thingis like what they were accused
of was just backsliding on druguse and stealing.
Yeah, yeah, I don't, and it'sunclear to me whether or not he
(03:49):
actually believes that.
Yeah, that's what he tellsLucifer, because that was.
It's unclear to me whether ornot Rivas actually believes that
they were guilty of thosethings.
That was part of the deceptionwas to, yeah, was that they were
punished for backsliding, thatthat had to be part of the
deceptive.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Well, they were irredeemable, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
But whether or not, that Oscar actually believed
that.
Believe that I mean he may havethought of it the same way,
it's unclear to me whether ornot he he was in on the whole
planet.
I mean he may have genuinelybelieved, as Father Kimley did,
that these were unfortunatenecessary sacrifices to the good
.
Yeah, yeah, I did notice onthis rewatch that now,
(04:41):
unfortunately, we're getting tothe the stretch of episodes
where the first the first personthey interviewed was the dead.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
One interview turned out to be the killer.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah, so 40 minute show.
I'll give it to them.
It's not a big deal, but Inoticed on this rewatch that
when they are interviewing Oscar, he says to Lucifer I want to
make sure that you punish theperson who did this.
He said he says promise me,promise me, yes.
(05:13):
And he said he looks Lucifer inthe eye when he says it.
Yeah, so, and knowing that it'shimself, I'm like, wow, yeah,
yikes.
So so he knew Kimley's plan,that this was an attempt to get
Lucifer to show his face.
I, maybe, because I'm aPollyanna I was thinking like he
(05:38):
was convinced to do it becausehe thought these people were
irredeemable.
But now that you say that, I'mlike, no, it would make more
sense that if he was just in onit, which is so despicable I
mean, that's the way I read itBecause because, uh, okay,
kimley says about him to he wasa good man, he was a good man,
he was a true believer and hedid what was necessary.
(06:00):
Yeah, so I?
Because, because, frankly, atrue believer would not accept
that someone was trash, thatsomeone, that a human being was
irredeemable.
Mm, hmm, I mean that justdoesn't align with who he was
supposed to have been.
(06:20):
So you know, serving in aparish in El Salvador, that that
that served folks who who were,you know, off the path that the
church should be.
It just doesn't align.
It makes more sensepsychologically to me.
Yeah, yeah, that he was in on it, had drunk the Kool-Aid and
(06:43):
thought that this was for thegreater good.
Yeah, no, that that makes totalsense.
This is, this is me being toomuch of an optimist.
So that, and his, uh, his,method of suicide.
Oh, my God, I I have notwatched this as many times as
(07:04):
you have and but that I was like, oh, it's coming, it's coming.
Yeah, I skip that, I skip that.
It's so awful.
Yeah, well, because it.
Oh, how do you know how they,they did it, the, the effects I
don't want to know.
Like, oh, yeah, yeah, so, um,whoo, but that's like the layers
(07:31):
upon layers that uh, kinley hasgoing.
And when Chloe realizes, likethis is, you're not actually
being sanctioned part of theVatican this is sanctioned.
Thank you, that's the word I waslooking for.
This is your own personalvendetta.
(07:52):
It kind of makes a lot ofthings make sense about the
character and his motivationsand why he's willing to be so
Machiavelli in getting whatever.
Yeah, that that actor does anawesome job to like really,
really believe, like the justthe cold calculating, but also
(08:12):
that he's a good act like thefather.
Kinley is a good actor to be inLucifer's presence.
Yeah, even like small things,like Lucifer touches him on the
shoulder and as he walks awayhe's, like you know, like
brushes his, yeah, yeah.
And there are like moments toothat like Lucifer puts out a
cigarette in like a baptismalfont or something, and there's,
(08:36):
it's very subtle, but they'relike I did read the disgust in
Kinley from the actor's deliveryof just being in the presence
of that happening.
It was, he's a good actor.
The other, yeah, the othermoment that was just phenomenal
was in the jail cell.
When his superior comes to takehis confession and breaks it to
(09:01):
him that he's beenexcommunicated, the way that
like his face freezes and thenlike it falls in a way where
it's like I cannot show how muchthis is bothering me.
It's just I Way to go, grandma,you're awesome, you're a really
good actor, yeah.
And then, and that's the moment, we get the actual prophecy,
(09:22):
which has been referenced before, but we haven't heard it yet.
So the prophecy is that whenthe devil walks the earth and
meets his first love, evil shallbe released.
So I think that's reallyinteresting that we get that too
, because we will.
We will see that happen, butspecifically because of Kim
Lee's efforts to avoid it, whichis so satisfying as a viewer.
(09:45):
It's the Macbeth satisfaction ofthings.
It is totally the Macbethsatisfaction of things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, if you'd justleft well enough alone.
That was what happened,mackinley.
Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly,although that's in the future,
but that's in the future.
I will say I wish they'd spenta little more time on the
(10:06):
prophecy, because the wordingjust doesn't sound like.
So you've got the like.
You know we were talking aboutthe vile last week and how it's,
you know it's the sacred vile.
Well, it's interesting that itwas like about the size of a
plum, yeah, and then Lucifercaused it a plum vile for the
rest of the show.
But like, yeah, yeah, who usesa plum as a huge measure?
(10:29):
I mean, did Kim Lee used to dooncology?
I did, that's right.
We're like pregnancy stuff,because that's not the place
where you measure things byfruit.
But I mean, to be fair, in theHebrew scriptures, like there's
a lot of halacha, that's likehow much?
How much matzah do you have toeat on Passover?
(10:51):
About the size of an olive,like there is actually a like a
unit of measure Well, fruits andvegetables, not plums,
specifically Not plums.
But it stood out to me this timeyeah, the size of a plum,
especially because I justrecently had a bunch of plums
(11:11):
and they were different sizesand bigger than that.
Vile, frankly, yeah, yeah.
So the thing with the prophecyis it felt like the language
should have been more, and nowsome of this is my older kid
(11:32):
really had.
He really likes fantasy novelsthat feature a prophecy, like
that is, that is his genre andso and he is very much into the
rhyming prophecies, which I'mnot I'm not going for that.
I don't want it to be rhymingnecessarily.
(11:52):
Well, it's just because Iwouldn't have been written in
English.
Yes, rhymes don't translate, no, but it just doesn't.
It just seems toostraightforward.
You know it just I don't know.
I just wish they'd spend alittle more time to make it a
little bit more like.
You know, if we're going tohave the holy hand grenade at
(12:14):
the sacred plum vile, we canhave the flowery prophecy too.
Yeah, just so anyway.
And I do appreciate thesuperior's response at the end,
where he's like, even if you'reright, how do you know?
How do we know that Chloe is hisfirst love?
(12:35):
Like you know, he has beenaround for how many thousands of
years.
This is ridiculous, Right,which?
And the that priest doesn'tactually believe that Lucifer
Morningstar is the devil, Right,you know, he's just poking
holes, Just like making sure,like, can you please recognize
how ridiculous you're being?
(12:55):
And also in the storytelling,like then Kinley could say well,
who else could it be?
So that we would be answeringthat question, so that we would
think, and then they give us theother clues with the fact that
she wanted an apple Appletini,and then there was a thing of
apples right next to her.
So they I mean that they alsodid that so that we could come
(13:19):
along with them as theyintroduced the first.
And I think, like that was thatwas really good writing, Like I
really appreciated how they didthat.
It was, it was.
So you want to overthink Eve'sname?
I do.
I do Because it wasn't.
Even this is like.
This is a classic, liketranslation issue, Actually with
(13:43):
pronouns.
So you think that confusionaround pronouns is recent.
It ain't Like.
I won't go into all of thedetails because it just gets.
It gets really deep in theweeds.
But her name was Chaya, becauseshe was the mother of all
living.
Like Chaya, like Chaya, likeChaya, Like Chaya, Life yeah Her
name was Chaya and then at onepoint it's it talks about her
(14:07):
and some scribe put the word forthe male pronoun, which is, and
wrote it.
And of course there are novowels in the text.
And somebody else was like itshouldn't be male, it should be
female.
So they put the vowel under itfor the female pronoun, but it
(14:28):
still had the consonants for themale pronoun, so it became Eve,
If you read it with the vowelsand the pronouns as written.
And then that became Eve, soit's a typo.
The name Eve is a typo.
It is not a name, it is a weirdconglomeration of the male and
(14:53):
female pronouns.
Third person pronouns inancient.
Hebrew it ain't a name.
She would never have gone byEve.
I mean, neither would thearchangel have gone by Lucifer.
We did that over thinking backin the first season and so
(15:15):
whatever.
But it just yeah.
It just also also, who elsecould it have been?
Lilith came before Eve or Haya.
Lilith was first and if youaccept the Lilith Apocrypha
(15:39):
which this show does, shepredates Eve so and she had a.
She definitely had arelationship with the devil,
which I'll get into even morewhen we meet her.
But this whole like, who elsecould it be?
There were at least two otheroptions and it was not the first
(16:00):
one.
In fact I was.
I was telling a friend of minewho's a rabbi about this show
and how much I love it and shewas like, well, why was so great
?
And I was like, well, kind ofpulls in on stuff, and like
there's one part where there's aprophecy about the devil's
first love, and she says, oh,you mean Lilith.
And I was like, well, at leastin Jewish sources, the devil's
first love, no question, lilith.
(16:23):
So yeah, okay, anyway, that'smy little like rabbit hole for a
moment.
To continue on the rabbit hole,just the, the male pronoun that
became Eve, eve and then Eve byaccident.
What was it referring to, anddoes it change the story at all?
It was referring to Haya,that's I mean.
(16:45):
That's why it got changed.
So it was.
It's very context.
Somebody just screwed up andthey they should have put a Yod,
the little short, it's a Y, andinstead they put a Vav, which
is the long straight line, andso it's just, it's just the
wrong.
It's a long letter.
It's a typo.
It's a typo, it's, it's.
The context is clear that itmeans her, which is why a later.
(17:09):
But they can't change it.
They can't actually change theletters.
And so the Maserai to put thevowels in for us.
But in the vow, that would havebeen right for the Yod for the
female third person pronoun, butwhen you read it with that Vav,
it says heave instead of he.
It's very confusing.
In Hebrew he is she, who is heand me is who.
(17:34):
So English to Hebrew veryconfusing.
But Gotcha, okay, just the waythat you said it, I was.
I was thinking it might havebeen like it was a he and it was
confusing as to who wasreferring to.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
No, it's very clear.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
My recollection is and it only happens one time,
but my recollection is that thecontext is pretty clear, that
the story means Haya, means weknow, call you.
Which is why the Maserai feltconfident in saying, oh, it says
who, but you should read it ashe and here's the vow for he.
But if you just read it andyou're not making that
(18:12):
correction, it reads as he.
That makes sense.
All right, very cool, I love it.
This is what we're doing, thisfor.
This is why we have this entirechannel.
Yeah, yeah, for theoverthinking, so much
overthinking, so I like.
Speaking of Eve, I would liketo talk about her character,
(18:34):
because I feel like she's got athing that in Barlavi that the
actress has a thankless job andshe nails it because, like she
comes in and this is the fourthseason, people are very much
Decker Star Shippers and she isin the way but instead of just
being, like you know, a bigblock of nothing in the way,
(18:57):
like Pierce, she is thisincredible, like likable,
engaging, interesting characterwho is both understandable why
she does what she does, the waythat she does things and flawed,
and and just I, just I love Eve.
(19:22):
I love the character of Eve.
I love the way that they theywrote her and the way that in
Barlavi plays her.
She is also like 150 percent myhusband's type and I was like
trying to get, just just get toseason four and you can just
(19:44):
just drill.
We'll drill together and not somuch, you know.
I think even more than maybenot even more.
I agree Lavi does a great joband also I think our writers did
a great job because, yes, thatespecially like we, chloe isn't
(20:05):
sure that he's devastated.
She thinks he's probably fine.
He's out there living it up.
We see differently.
He's drunk every drop of thatwall of scotch in the in the
penthouse and has gone down tothe party to get more and is
like just in his under, likehe's not entertaining women in
the penthouse, he's justdrinking himself into oblivion.
He is a wreck because she can'taccept him or fully who he is.
(20:30):
And so when Eve is like no, I'mhere for you, and he's certain
she is going to reject him inthe same way because he is
unlovable in his mind, and shejust like, doesn't avert her
eyes, takes him by the you knowthe either side of the face and
(20:50):
kisses him in the devil face.
It is what he needed.
He felt unlovable.
Yeah, and so it's.
I think our writers did areally good job of like, yeah,
I'm total team Decker star andalso like that's what Lucy
(21:14):
needed.
It is.
He needed someone to say I seeall of you.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
And I'm okay with it.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
I think you're amazing, all of you Uh-huh, yeah
, yeah.
And the fact that she kisseshim while he still has the
double face.
It actually reminded me ofsomething completely ridiculous.
But have you seen Deadpool?
I haven't, okay.
So the story of Deadpool is RyanReynolds who, like he plays
(21:44):
Wade Wilson, but he's actuallyRyan Reynolds in every party.
He's in love with a woman.
They're going to spend theirlives together.
He gets diagnosed with likehorrible cancer that it's just
going to boom, kill him, and sohe leaves.
Anyway, this group wants him toto try to see if he can.
(22:05):
They can cure his cancer butalso make him a superhero, and
in doing that, they likecompletely mess up his face,
like he just gets ugly and gross, and so he doesn't go back to
Vanessa, first because he'safraid that she'll reject him,
and then, like he's just allkinds of stuff.
At the end of the film, when helike they're finally back
(22:27):
together again, he has like he'swearing his mask.
He pulls it off for her to seeand she's like you know what,
after a brief, you know gettinggetting used to it, period, that
is a hate face I will happilysit on, cause that's the kind of
movie it is, and so it remindedme of that.
(22:48):
Where it's it's like you knowit's not about like, yeah, ryan
Reynolds is a remarkablyhandsome man and no, he does.
He looks like a thumb afteryou've, after it's been in the
water for a while, after the,the, the, you know the stuff
that they do to him.
The same thing with withLucifer.
Where it's like I like you,it's not about what your face
(23:11):
looks like.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yeah and how important that is for anyone to
hear yeah, yeah and the.
The other thing I appreciateabout Eve is they very easily
could have made her like thesexy baby trope Cause there is
the, the naivete and the badaspect of it, but she's not
(23:34):
helpless and she's not like,like she's enthusiastic but
she's like, she's helpful andlike.
The stuff that she wants to tryare really like, cool and
interesting, like, oh, I get tobash him in the balls but and
and so like.
There is some of the like, sexy, ingenue about her, but it's
(23:59):
not of the like, oh, I'm sohelpless, it's more of the like
I am just have, I'minexperienced.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I haven't done that before.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
I want to, I want to try it, yeah, yeah.
And, like you know, she figuredout a way to get to to Los
Angeles from the dusty old tomb.
She woke up, right, right,which is remarkable, right, yeah
, yeah, yeah.
So she's always been kind of arule breaker, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Yeah, all right.
So I, I just so appreciate thethe, because there are so many
ways that this could have gottenmisogynistically.
Yes, and it does not.
Okay, I want to talk about.
I want to talk about LaurenGerman's performance and then I
think we should move on to theother episode.
(24:53):
So, specifically, when theyfinally like get to the heart of
the matter and he's like youknow why are you lying to me and
whatever.
And they, they have that sortof confrontation and and she,
you know why, how could you dothis to me?
And her response is because I'mterrified and she, she sort of
(25:18):
barks it.
There's something about thatscene that doesn't read to me
and it's not the dialogue.
The dialogue, I think, is goodand I don't know if it's because
I know like there are.
We talked offline about thefact that there are a bunch of
people who speculate about whatkind of work she had done
between seasons and in general.
(25:39):
I don't want to talk about herappearance in that way, but I
wonder if she lost some nuancein her facial expression because
of whatever, if in fact she hadthat work done, because it just
it didn't.
It doesn't hang together for me.
And in the future there'sanother episode in the future
when she again is like I'm notfalling apart.
(25:59):
We'll talk about it when we getthere.
But that one really upsets mebecause it just doesn't work.
But this one is the like, alongwith when we spoke last time
about her recoil they're bothoveracted and underacted at the
same time.
And I don't know how to like Idon't quite know how to
articulate it, but that's it.
(26:20):
It's overacted in the maybe inthe volume and underacted in the
nuance.
I think that's the way I'mgoing to articulate what bothers
me about German's performancein those moments.
I don't think it's the dialogue, although I'm a words person
and so maybe maybe I'm I'm beingmore generous with the words
(26:43):
than, but I don't know.
It's just something about thatmoment and again, we said it
last time, like Ellis is such anactor of subtlety you know Well
, the, the look on his face andthe like, the, the, the tears in
his eyes that have not fallenare like oh.
(27:05):
And even the way that he says,you know, when she says I don't
know, and he says I guess I havemy answer, there's something
that just, I just believe it'sjust heartbreaking.
Yeah, and I don't believe herdelivery.
And it's not that I don'tbelieve the words, because I
believe that she's terrified anddoesn't know what to think and
all of this messages, but sheremembered, like, the things she
(27:28):
says I believe, and herdelivery I just didn't believe.
Yeah.
So, anyway, I'm sorry to thosemore German fans who might be
watching.
Yeah, she has her strengths andI think as the as the show went
(27:50):
on, it got a little further andfurther away from her strengths
.
Yes, I agree, because I reallybought her as the hard boiled,
like completely repressed.
I bought her as that Hug, biteand sink her.
Yeah, like that worked for me.
Yeah, it's these moments whereshe needs to actually tap into
(28:10):
emotion that I just don't.
We struggle and I'll see it.
We struggle with it and I'llsee it.
So I do want to talk about soin that, because we've kind of
back and forth between episodes.
But in oh Father, oh you Little, oh you Little Faithfather, we
were talking before we startedrecording about Linda's advice
to Lucifer in that episode.
(28:33):
That really bothers me.
So she was saying like, okay,you think that she has betrayed
you and if you accuse her youcan't unring that bell.
That's good advice, that istrue.
So, like you know, just as in amarriage, if you say like you
cheated on me, you can't, andLinda says that, unsay it.
But she then said so, feel herout gently.
(28:56):
And it's just like well, no,that doesn't make sense and
that's not good advice.
Instead, it would make moresense to be like look, I need to
talk to you about something.
A man named Father Kinleyreached out to me and has said
that you have been in touch witheach other and I don't
understand what's going on.
Can you help me understand?
And like, being straightforwardabout it is what an actual
(29:18):
therapist would recommend, Ibelieve.
And so like no, the feel it outis what you need, what the
story needed, okay, but like butthey don't.
They never stuck by thatbecause he never follows her
advice.
Yeah, he never follows heradvice.
Yeah, now, he always twists itinto what he wants to do.
(29:41):
So, yeah, you know, if she hadsaid, like, don't accuse her,
but just ask her, you knowwhat's up with this.
And he had said feel her out,that's right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so you know, if she's justlike I don't know, he's like, oh
, I'm like, let's do something,or whatever, whatever the line
is, you know, because that'sultimately what he does is the
try to.
You know, you're Andrew's Brodyin this this is a very tough
(30:05):
yeah.
Well, and even though oh, what'sthis?
It's perfume.
I have drunk something worse,you know like, instead of saying
like, look, I know what this is, you know like and that's I.
It's just, it's a an odd moment.
There's one other that's likewe've talked about and we'll get
to it later that I'm reallyupset at the showrunners for,
(30:28):
because I think that it's badlyServes people who actually deal
with that, that particularmental health issue.
We'll get there.
But this is another one whereI'm like this is bad advice,
whereas normally it seems likethey are putting good advice in
Linda's mouth.
So, but I do want to talk aboutLinda has a house.
(30:52):
Yeah, because in the firstseason she and Lucifer were
doing it in her office in apullout on like a sofa bed.
Yeah, so, like you know, andwell, my head cannon on that is
that she had been like stayingin the Office while she and
Reese were getting divorced andnow that he's dead, like the
(31:12):
house is hers.
Oh, you think it was.
Oh, that's my head cannon.
That's interesting, okay, justbecause it feels like.
What's interesting too is likethe house feels like a Linda
house like, and then I could seeit's also very a la.
To me it feels like that's true.
That's true, it is very la that.
(31:32):
So we talked last time about howthe Director, sherwin Shaladi,
does such a good job.
He directed all about Eve,which is the one where we see
Linda's house for the first time, and and there are two moments
that I want to point out, whichis the they come back from
seeing the doctor.
(31:53):
It's the first time or well,not a story doctor, but the
ultrasound tech, the first timethey've that.
We've actually seen Linda'shouse and a menendial is just
excited like Boy, can't we teachthem all kinds of things?
And like you see her stand andstare up at the ceiling fan and
you see the ceiling fan liketurning.
It's this really cool effectand you know exactly what she's
(32:14):
thinking.
So, like that it's just reallywell done.
Visual storytelling it reallyis.
The other thing that all Sherwindid nicely is that that bite
scene, fight scene in the bar inDalton's place with that song.
(32:37):
I love that song.
It's something like riding alightning bolt, is like the, the
, yeah, the chorus, and oh, mygoodness, it's just so fun.
That's actually really goodwhen we and when we meet Eve,
it's Portis head Tentris.
This is bad for me.
Yeah, that's a great back tocollege, yeah, yeah, well, and
(33:05):
the like.
The introduction of her likepanning over now I can't Like
overthinking it.
I'm like with the bartenderwhen he's saying, sure you, you
don't want to stay like it'srocking tonight, it's you know
Like well, while on earth, whatI want to do that and he looks
over and we're supposed tobelieve he could see Eve from
all the way over in the bar andthat huge crowded room.
I Don't know if that's whatwe're supposed to believe her if
he was just kind of like ingeneral, there's lots of hot
(33:27):
women here, I think, though, butthose it was specific Lee, her,
she was sort of the center.
Yeah, she was, she was, but theway that they pan, over
everything.
And then the way that they thatpause and then, like, all of a
sudden she's jumping up and downand oh yeah, because the tempo
changes.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
The tempo is to have time, and then all of a sudden
it comes back up to yeah, yeah,that's pretty, that's pretty and
the the choreography of that.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
It's beautiful, really, really well done.
Yeah, it's beautiful, althoughI think that's a good thing.
Yeah, I think that's a goodthing.
Yeah, it's beautiful, althoughan overthinking.
Is it really cold in elucifer'spenthouse because, like two
minutes later she's like nosweat whatsoever?
Yeah, so also, how did thatwhite dress stay?
(34:14):
Still stay so nice?
Yeah, at least 48 hours longer.
Yeah, because the implicationsshe had woken up with it, yeah,
which I don't think it wouldhave survived 5,000 years or
whatever.
Oh, did you think?
Because I didn't think thatshe'd necessarily woken up with.
I figured she figured out a wayto get it, because those red
heels, definitely.
She definitely did not wake upwith the red heels, that's true.
(34:35):
Yeah, I interrupted you talkingabout the choreography of the
bar fight.
Oh, yes, I think it wasRemarkable and beautiful and
used a lot of actually that samesort of like slow motion, like
and then up to and just the waythat they have the choreography
of Tom Ellis has Lucifer kind ofjust like easily like bobbing
(34:59):
and weaving out of the way oflike chairs and pull cues and
Punches and things.
It was pretty cool, I mean yeah,well, and they, they all the
extras, get in on it too.
So like there's a guy who atone point he just brushes glass
off.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Yeah, he's sitting at the bar.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
He's sitting at the bar.
Yeah, yeah, I saw him.
He's just like, oh, and then,and the bartender like cleaning
the bar, and then the waitresswho like stops somebody who's
gonna hit, even then, yeah,they're like go power.
And.
And then also all all throughthat, with Eve's reaction, which
is just like I feel, yoursister, yeah, particularly since
(35:41):
he's doing it specifically forher.
Yeah, because he was not gonnafight until someone tried to to
take her.
Yeah, right, so, and I'm like,yeah, yeah, I feel that
definitely, yeah, yeah, so eventhe way that it ends where we
hear Chloe's voice and then thething goes through his shoulder
and then the oh, detective, oh,my goodness, yeah, yeah, I.
(36:11):
This is probably one of One ofthe episodes I've seen most
often.
I've come back to it again andagain, and again because it is
just a delight, even like littlemoments like the, the
ultrasounds with May's freakingout, when the gel flips toward
the camera, I laughed out loud.
And then she, like she sniffsit and licks it, like all right.
(36:32):
And then when they, like I did,having had two ultrasounds that
Revealed I was having a boy,like that's not how you, like,
it's not in the side view, yougotta get get underneath the
side view unless he's very wellin the middle of the video.
You gotta get get underneaththe side view.
(36:53):
Unless he's very well endowed,you're not gonna see anything,
whatever.
But yeah, overthinking.
But when not when they're likehaving a boy and and May's is
immediately like I don't looknext time.
Oh my gosh, I love this episodeso much and the ultrasounds,
(37:17):
like it's usually only one penis.
I was looking for the way, whichalso reminded me do you
remember this?
When, um, um, we first foundout that we were having our
eldest, um, and like we didn'tknow yet whether we were having
a boy or a girl, you sent me acard saying like you were so
(37:39):
excited and it was the card saidlike 10 little fingers and 10
little toes and wings wingswould be cool too.
I think I still have itsomewhere.
So it's all kinds of just Greatstuff in both these episodes
the the first of these I don'trewatch as often because it is a
(38:00):
little brutal the little look,I definitely skip over the scene
.
Oh man, the scene in the house,that Oscar by the Catholic
Church, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then even Ella, like I readbeef kebabs.
Again, I'm like Ella, seriously, no, I'm usually behind you on
anything you have to say, but no, oh, um, I do want to say I
(38:23):
need her.
Her t-shirt, the one with theunicorn and the rainbows is
heavy metal.
I need that t-shirt, it must bemine, it will be mine.
So, okay, I'm watching the timeand I actually have to retrieve
my progeny, um, spring offspring.
So I'm gonna Say any finalthings that you have to say
(38:46):
about all about eve.
Hmm, I don't think so.
Okay, I think we're good.
Fluff, fluff, fluff.
Do you have Fluff?
Oh my gosh, I had something init.
Well, we both noticed, beforewe hit record, that when Lucifer
is falling apart, there arefriggin' holes in his sock.
(39:08):
He's walking around in just hisunderwear and the robe and socks
and you can see his toes.
Yeah, you can see his toespeeking out.
Well done, costumer.
We noticed Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yes, oh, I know Another fluffwhen they were talking about it
(39:29):
to Beshear Like we're not acouple, but we used to be.
You might have read about it inthe Bible, yeah, although it
wasn't really an apple, it wasmore of a banana, right, and so
I know that they're not actuallytalking about fruit, but I'm
going like the modern Cavendishbanana has only been around for
a few hundred years.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
There was no such fruit thousands of years ago.
We had to cross pollinatethings yeah, genetically
engineer it, yeah, geneticallyengineer the current banana.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Which is in the, which is in Jeopardy what used
to be a banana was full of seeds.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yeah, so I know that that's not the point.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah, that wasn't what they were talking about.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
I mean, she could have said it was an eggplant,
based on today's emoji language.
So you know she wasn't talkingabout it.
I know it's just, it was justlike I like this.
But also, you know, applesdidn't exist.
No, I've read that it was maybemore like a quince, which I
don't even know what that is.
So who knows, who knows?
(40:37):
So, so that's that's myoverthinking it.
So you know the very largebanana, it's true.
And then Bashir is like I haveno idea what you two are talking
about.
Also, I kind of like Bashir.
He's just like the concierge ofcrime and he's just like I just
(40:57):
want to, you know, sit in thesauna and or not the sauna.
He's in a hot tub, drinkingmojitos and offering olives to
anybody who comes by.
He's just giving his wifeexpensive necklaces.
I've been his best life.
I mean, yeah, he does, he doesbeat people up, but but he
(41:20):
doesn't kill them.
So he doesn't kill them.
Yeah, no footing anybodywithout my permission first.
Oh, also, Tobi Golden and PabloSilva made Golden Silva
Jewelers, which is, I think,either like brilliance or awful
Brilliant.
There's no in between.
I'm going brilliant.
(41:41):
I'm going brilliant.
Oh, you know what else?
Okay, so one more overthinkingmoment, when Dan just like
struts into the low sexes HQ andthey're like whatever they're
(42:01):
talking, smack and stuff.
And then they started speakingin Spanish and he looks kind of
confused and I was like, doesn'tDan speak Spanish?
Yeah, he does.
I mean, they've made that clearbefore.
I thought that was a little bitodd.
He's just like, well, maybe hewasn't confused, but he's kind
of had this like I don't knowthat moment, like I was waiting
(42:23):
for him to speak Spanish backand he didn't come.
So I was a little disappointedthat that didn't happen in that
scene, that particular moment.
Yeah, I was like I was waitingfor Dan Esposito to come back
with Spanish, but Espinoza, oh,thank you, Espinoza.
(42:48):
I knew it didn't sound right.
I knew it didn't sound right.
So one other thing they used anactual phone number for Dan's
number for the Chewbaccachallenge.
Oh, really, yeah, I noticed,because it wasn't a 555 number.
It always takes me out.
It immediately takes me out ofthe show.
And this I was looking at it,looking for the 555.
(43:09):
I'm like that's not a 555.
That's a real phone number.
Yes, I love it.
I wonder, if I call it, whatwould happen.
Maybe you'll get a Chewbaccamessage, or maybe I can leave a
Chewbacca message.
I don't know.
That's pretty fine, all right,I really got to go, so I'm going
to go pick up the phone.
Yeah, go pick up the phone.
I'm going to pick up the phone.
I'm going to pick up the phone.
I'm going to pick up the phone.
Yeah, go pick up your child.
(43:31):
Elementary school pick up.
Man.
Yes, it's rough out there.
It's rough out there in thesestreets.
I want you See you next week.
See you next week.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Our theme song is Ferrel Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetentcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(44:06):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
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