April 18, 2024 • 50 mins
“Family Dinner” and “Bloody Celestial Karaoke Jam” deliver both some of the funniest and some of the most poignant moments of the whole series.
With a general appreciation for the relatableness of so much of what happens between characters in these two episodes and a very specific appreciation for Tom Ellis’ collarbones, the Guy sisters overthink these two season five episodes.
The sisters spend significant air time enjoying the Gen-X-appealing music, the commentary on parent-child relationships, and the elegance of metaphors made manifest in these two episodes. They also dig deep into the nature of shame and internalized oppression and the significance of Chloe having “faith” that Lucifer is capable of love.
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hi, I'm here with my sister, Emily Guy-Burken.
She does not use a hyphen.
I'm here with my sister, EmilyGuy-Burken.
She does not use a hyphen.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
That's true, and I'm here with my sister, tracy
Guy-Decker, and she does use ahyphen.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
And together we are Lightbringers where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
.
And yeah, we're overthinking it.
So much overthinking, and todaywe are going to overthink
episodes 509 and 510, familyDinner and Bloody Celestial
(00:52):
Karaoke Jam.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yes, so in these two episodes we are introduced to
Dennis Haysbert as God Almighty,you know it's funny, dennis
Haysbert, as God Almighty, youknow it's funny.
In the rewatch you said this.
You said this last time aboutthe Pete episodes, about how,
like in your memory, you kind oflike forget the like creepy
(01:15):
serial killer and you onlyremember the fun parts, like
when Lucifer's like runningaround in the background trying
to test his mojo on everyone.
Yeah, I find the same thingabout these two where I remember
in my memory both of theseepisodes are hilarious and they
are uh, but there's alsoactually quite a bit of pathos,
uh, yeah, like this, likesadness and empathy and like
(01:40):
struggle and loneliness that Ijust forget until I'm sitting in
front of the screen again.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
So I I do have to say , even though I knew it was
coming the line you do have afuton right Again, just took me
out.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, I remember that one as well.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Not only the, the, the line like as written, but
how Haysbert delivers.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Haysbert is so satisfying, as God just has that
sort of like.
It's not a grin exactly but,just sort of like the satisfied,
satisfied smile through most ofhis delivery.
He's very satisfying.
Um yeah, yeah.
So okay, let's.
(02:37):
Let's stay with the firstepisode, with the family dinner.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
I think it's really interesting that Chloe is so
completely embraced the ideathat Lucifer projects his own
problems onto the case of theweek, that she's actually
comforted when she realizes thathe instantly suspects the
family and she's like the family, not the girlfriend.
(03:04):
She's like okay now, like she'sbeen in this very anxious space
since he literally disappearedfrom her perspective.
Just disappeared when he wasabout to say he loved her in the
evidence room, and then shefinds him, however long, much
later, like reveling at Lux.
So I appreciated that, like asa long-time viewer, like I felt,
(03:30):
like let's yeah, it happens andshe notices it too like let's
just run with it and embrace it.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Yeah, actually I enjoyed that yeah and it she's
got this tough line to walk,both the actress and the and and
the character.
You know cause she has likefallen for this guy who she
knows is a bad romantic choice.
(03:59):
Um, you know she'd had thatconversation with linda.
You know, right before they gotthey they had sex for the first
time, where it's just like, oh,he was a narcissist with huge
daddy problems and commitmentissues and, you know, overgrown
teenager and you know all of thedifferent things.
So you know she has every rightto be furious at him and she
(04:22):
makes it very clear like, okay,I'm not going to do that and I
am not sure how I feel aboutthat.
You know, obviously, in the show, as a shipper, I'm like, yeah,
let him take the time he needs.
It's not about you.
But you know, as a womannavigating the world who has
(04:46):
consistently been explicitly andimplicitly asked to let him
have his thing, you know, lethim have his freak out or just
forgive something, or he wasn'treally, he didn't really mean it
.
It's about his family.
It's blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.
And I'm not talkingspecifically about my current
partner, I'm just talking aboutit in general, you know, cause
(05:11):
it's not just about romantic.
I mean it's blah blah blah, andI'm not talking specifically
about my current partner, I'mjust talking about it in general
, you know, because it's notjust about romantic.
I mean it's, you know, at work,it's friends, it's, it's
teachers, it's everybody.
I like that is frustrating.
It's frustrating and at thesame time it's it seems that's
what would happen.
You know, that's because we, aswomen, have been socialized to
do that.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah, I had similar thoughts.
So I was like I, I don't thinkshe owes him an apology.
You know, like, even from herperspective, I don't think she
owes him an apology.
And, in particular, like I feellike there should have been
more.
Like, how did you disappear?
Like he was there and then hewasn't, like the rest of the
people in the precinct thoughtthat there had been an
(05:54):
earthquake because the glass hadshattered and stuff.
But yeah, I, I feel like Iagree with you on all counts and
I wonder, like if I could, if Icould rewrite it, maybe I would
push harder on the curiosity.
Yeah, and I think that mightnot have been out of character
for chloe decker, who, like,wants to solve mysteries,
(06:19):
because we know that he can,like you know whatever, fly and
move pretty quickly.
But they were standing, youknow, really close, and then she
blinked and he was gone andthat I don't think he's done to
her before.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
I will say that, considering where she was,
emotionally, I could see herbeing like I can't poke that,
yeah.
Emotionally, I could see herbeing like I can't poke that
Like, and feeling like I can'tbe curious about that Cause I
don't.
I can't know what happened,because if I do like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yeah, yeah, and that's why she apologized too,
cause it was easy, it was a way,it was a path forward that she
had control over.
So that makes sense.
Absolutely.
Yeah, yep.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Yep, I'd like to talk about the actual dinner.
yeah, so poor linda when aminute feels like you almost
made it I love their, theirlittle interactions because,
well, part of what's so greatabout this scene is that it is
(07:23):
very familiar to anyone who'sbeen at an uncomfortable family
dinner.
And linda is like the personwho married in, even though she
and amenadiel aren't togetheranymore, and like they're
whispered back and forth likewhen she she was like I just
thank god for napkins.
He's like you did better than Iwould have.
Um, that that was really like.
(07:45):
It's one of the reasons whythis show is so beloved and
feels so universal in some ways,even though it's about things
that are clearly not universal.
Yeah, that really struck me in away that made me change how I
(08:07):
think about the character Dennis.
Like Dennis Haysbert plays asGod, so I think he's supposed to
be played, supposed to be like,likable.
I mean like it's, for one thing, he's Dennis Haysbert who's
just charming.
I mean just charming, Charmingand handsome and that gorgeous
(08:28):
voice and all of that.
And then also the way thatthey've written him is as
someone who's well-meaning butkind of screwed up but also kind
(08:50):
of didn't it's.
Lucifer starts talking abouthow Amenadiel self-actualized
the loss of his powers and hiswings, oppression, whether it's
something like really structured, like like a religion or cult,
or just being a woman in in inin the world, or a black person
(09:11):
in America, or anything likethat.
One of the ways that the youknow?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
the structure exerts power is by having you
internalize the shame.
It's one of the four eyes ofoppression.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
I did not know.
There were four eyes ofoppression.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Four eyes of oppression internalized,
interpersonal, institutional andideological.
Yeah, and the internalized is a.
It's a pillar, because that waythe oppressor is oppressing
even when he's not around.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Yes, so you're self-policing and you're
policing others.
And so what got me about that?
Because I've always, you know,the first time through that
didn't strike me, and I'vealways liked the, the, this
sense that angels self-actualize, um, because it's elegant in a
(10:05):
lot of ways in terms ofstorytelling and also in you
know what in this universe thisGod has created and all of that.
It also is clear in the likethat God wanted his children to
make their own way, and this isone way that happens make their
(10:30):
own way, and this is one waythat happens.
But the way that Amenadielself-actualized feels like
internalized oppression becausehe was feeling shame and that's
why he did that, and so I mean,that's where Lucifer's face
comes from too.
That to me like puts a realsinister cast over dennis
haisbert's character in that ithad to have like that
(10:55):
internalized shame, had to havecome from somewhere, and so I
thought that it was really welldone in terms of like when
Lucifer is confronting hisfather at the dinner table and
he's bringing up things that arelegitimate concerns with a
(11:19):
narcissistic parent, and wedon't get any kind of real
catharsis in that, that sceneand uh, it's, it's, it's a lot
and it it had.
I.
I was wondering how much joeand ildy and the and you know
(11:43):
the team were trying to getacross in terms of actual bad
parenthood, because hazebert isso lovable, whereas in some ways
it would be easier if, if godremained absent.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Uh, in the, in the, the show I read that, you know,
earlier in the season in theseries they had all.
They had never intended to showgod, they never intended to
show hell either, and they brokeboth of those as the series
went on, which is interesting.
(12:23):
In some ways, it would beeasier, and I think that's also
real Like there are very fewpeople who are truly just bad
people.
I mean, you and I know one ortwo, but but there aren't very
many in the world who are trulyjust plain bad people.
Yeah, and I think that.
So that feels sort of accurate,especially since, you know, when
(12:48):
Dan is like, he's like above,like petty foibles and stuff,
and a minute ago it's like, well, no, I don't think he is, you
know, like the reminder that Godis one of us, uh, to quote that
song.
Anyway, what I think is reallyI'm I'm thinking a lot about
(13:08):
metaphor lately, separate anddifferent from Lucifer, I'm just
I'm reading a book aboutmetaphor and I'm just like
thinking a lot about the waysthat we use metaphor humans.
Humans use metaphor to learnnew concepts, and the thing
that's really really elegant andsatisfying about
self-actualization is that themetaphor becomes real right.
(13:30):
The elegant and satisfying aboutself-actualization is that the
metaphor becomes real right.
The metaphor is actually solike the vulnerability, even
talking about vulnerability as ametaphor for emotional
closeness, you know.
So to make the metaphor, thenyou know, actualize is really
powerful and satisfying, becausemetaphors are satisfying.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
I think that's.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Because metaphors are satisfying.
I think that's I think it'sreally fascinating.
I think I'm less to me theshame is less damning of Hays
for its God than it is for you,because I think that it's a it's
(14:03):
, it's a complicated emotion.
I agree it comes from somewhere, but it's not entirely, it's
not entirely from outside, right, I think there's.
There's definitely someinternalization and there's some
like cooking inside.
That happens.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
I think the well, and the the, the fact, that fact
that Michael's shoulder iscrooked and Lucifer says to him
like you know, you got such achip on your shoulder, a chip
manifested it, and then the factthat Lucifer is vulnerable,
like physically vulnerable,around Chloe because he's
(14:40):
emotionally vulnerable aroundher, like that to me feels very
elegant, although, come to thinkof it, the reason Amenadiel was
, he lost his powers and he losthis wings.
I was focusing on the fact thathe and Maze had a relationship
(15:02):
and it might be that, but he hadbeen responsible for the deaths
of some of people, of somehumans, in which case I'm kind
of okay with feeling shame andmanifesting that exactly so okay
that that's.
I had forgotten that, but that'sthat's yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
So the other thing that's really interesting about
the fact that Amenadiel'ssuffering is what Lucifer brings
to his father is that it'sAmenadiel's suffering.
I mean he does talk about hisown, but because Michael brings
it up first, you had a kingdomto rule over.
You had a kingdom to rule over,right.
(15:42):
That's why he brings up howhorrible it was to be in hell
and to be forced to torturesouls.
He doesn't bring it up on hisown.
He doesn't say like I made abad decision and you cut me off
for the millennia.
He says look what you did to mybrother and let him suffer when
(16:03):
you could have eased hissuffering.
And to me that offers a levelof emotional maturity from
Lucifer that we don't usuallysee.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Yeah, we definitely would not have seen in season
one.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Agreed Not at all he had zero empathy for his brother
in season one, I mean, and hedoes it all while he's shoving
food in his mouth and talkingwith his mouth full, which is
really unpleasant.
But you know, I said that'ssort of that's something that
stood out to me, and and theneven more so as you were talking
about that confrontation.
So in that scene, moment ofoverthinking, we've talked about
(16:37):
names before hazeburg and theythey mispronounce it.
It wouldn't have been Michael,it would have Michael and they
don't have the.
But even even like anAmericanized version, it should
be Michael, cause it anywaysmall thing, uh, maybe even
fluff, but it's like as it.
(16:57):
As they were like, yeah, I kindof like the sound of that, so
my, my mym-i-k-i-l or whatever,yeah, and I was like no, no, no,
no, no, no no you know, can wemove on from the dinner itself?
absolutely so.
The other moment that I want totalk about and think about is
(17:21):
maze, and when maze comes totalk to god, when she's dressed
like little red riding hoodinexplicably.
Um, yeah, that scene again.
Like I forget about it when Ihaven't recently rewatched, I
think in part because it is soheart-wrenching yeah that she
(17:46):
feels this lack which isultimately loneliness, and
that's why I have a hard timemaking connections.
She says you know, and?
And when he says you're perfect, just as you are, like she just
can't hear that.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Well, that's one of those where it can feel like a
slap in the face.
Yeah, clearly, when you'reconvinced that there's something
wrong with you and someone elsesays no, of course there's not,
and you're like, what's wrongwith you that you can't see this
(18:26):
, yeah, yeah.
And so I mean that's one of thereasons why I love that this
show, I feel like for the mostpart, does such a good job like
showing and discussing mentalhealth, even when it's not doing
it directly, because that is avery clear.
I feel like I've mentioned thisat some point before, but it
(18:49):
reminded me of how, after RobinWilliams died, I was reading an
opinion article by a comediantalking about how you know that
a comedian considers you afriend when they're not funny in
front of you and you know, andif you are like, hey, where's
(19:10):
the, where's the funny guy?
Or something like that, they'llput the mask back up and you
and it will be a completesurprise.
Now, with with Williams, therewas clearly something the Lewy
body dimension, all of thatwhich was only somewhat related
to, to, like, his lifelongdepression.
But I'm just thinking aboutthat.
That's like when she takes offthe the, I mean, she shows her
(19:34):
her real face, demon face, andand says like, do you think this
is perfect?
That is so real for someone whois experiencing self-loathing
in that, like you know, how canyou possibly think that I'm
perfect, just as I am, when I'mthis horrible creature?
And in part because God is soremote, and this is the first
(20:04):
time she's, I think, met him,it's going to be impossible to
take that from him, whereas Ifeel like if Amenadiel had said
it, she might have been able tohear some portion of it.
Maybe, maybe it's, but yes,that was.
(20:25):
That was just heartbreaking.
I also, I have to say I lovethe through line of him always
having the exact right drink forsomeone.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
When she like it's all right.
And then he turns his back andhe's just like oh funny, I don't
.
And Leslie and Brant like theway that she like, just like I
think your whole mouth in thatlike martini glass.
That was pretty great, oh my.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
God, that was great, that was so good, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Then the next scene, when we see her talking to
Michael at Lux, like we alreadydon't like Michael, the writers
have already given us plenty ofreason to despise Michael, which
, you know, lucifer makes cleanwhen he says what Michael has
done since he's been on earth.
And again in that scene I meanthere's, there's a moment of
(21:17):
connection between him and mazeover their disdain for God which
, like, makes him all the moredespicable because, not only
because we're well, they'replanting the seeds so that we
can start to realize that notonly is he duplicitous with his
(21:38):
siblings and and humans, he'salso being duplicitous with his
father, which I don't think.
I think that's the first timewe see that seed.
They, like we may be suspectthat he's not being fully
truthful, like surely he didn'ttell God that he was going to go
down and like try and breakLucifer's life before he left
(22:04):
the silver city.
But you know that I'll go, I'llstay with you and let like,
let's go back, like all that.
And then we just saw when, uh,hayesworth scott says that's a
bad idea to go home.
Yeah, yeah, I don't think.
I think the conversation withmaze then makes that converse,
the conversation with dad, allthe more smarmy, which is really
an interesting also set up forus around Haysbert Scott, that
(22:26):
cause, you're not sure, does heknow, does he not know?
And that adds to the layers ofcomplexity that they're trying
to give us with him by havinghim banish I'm putting quotes
around that, michael, whilesticking around to spend time
with Lucifer.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Anyway, I, you know, the thing that struck me in that
scene is even as despicable asMichael is.
Scene is, um, even asdespicable as michael is.
It was proof that maze is notcorrect when she says she can't
connect with people, because shedoes connect with michael and
in a genuine way, like not likehe's not playing her at that
(23:07):
point, right, um, even thoughhe's always playing somebody and
he connects with her in a waythat she can hear and she's like
, oh, what, you come to saygoodbye.
He's like, well, all the people, I don't entirely hate you,
which is like high praise forMaze and like, oh, he's all
(23:28):
right.
And I found that scene watchingit again this time, I found it
Endearing is too strong.
Scene.
Watching it again this time, Ifound it endearing is too strong
.
But it was like there's, thereis something in michael that is
worthwhile in that he did makesure to talk to maize because
she was someone he had connectedwith for whatever reason.
(23:52):
And that's like, as ickish asMichael is and as despicable as
he will become, you know, weknow what's coming up there's
still the opportunity for growth, there's still the opportunity
for him to become better thanwhat he is and I appreciate that
(24:15):
just because that's.
That's what the show is aboutthat's.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah, that is the undercurrent of the whole show.
Absolutely, absolutely, yeah.
Let's move on to the otherepisode, the bloody celestial
karaoke jam so this is like kindof fluffy, but that first scene
when he's singing the wickedways, wicked game.
Yeah, wicked game.
Right, thank you uh when hekicks over the, the, the bench
(24:46):
piano bench oh so I I saw um,they actually the director
wanted it like they had to filmit in slow-mo because of the
spin, so he actually was singingin double time, so that I mean,
I think that they overdub himsinging in a studio.
Absolutely, yeah, but he wassinging in double time so that
(25:08):
the lips would match.
When they slowed it down toslow-mo, wow right, that's so
cool, I know.
Yeah.
So the direct like well, thethe thing that I saw that talked
about it the director was likeyeah, he's such a trooper.
I told him we had to do itdouble time and he was like okay
, well, the director is sherwinshalotti, who he?
Speaker 3 (25:32):
he's the one who did um god johnson back in season
two I think um where, and.
And he did that gorgeous likepanning shot of of the chaos and
then, yeah, the chaos and thepsychiatric ward.
So I was like, okay, yeah, thatthat fits, that this is is he
the one who did the one with umdetective?
Speaker 2 (25:54):
amenadiel?
Is that he the I?
Speaker 3 (25:56):
don't know.
You know what I meant to look,Because I think he's also the
one who did.
You can't just go in there andsay, hello, drug dealers.
He's like I never do that.
And then he did it in Korean.
I think he's the same directorof that All right, pause, I'm
going to look it up.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Okay, so it's not the same guy as the detective
amenadiel episode.
That was nathan hope.
I was wondering because there'sa similar moment of the camera
sort of following and turningupside down, which, like I, I
would never have picked up onthat in my first run through,
but watching for these for youand I.
You know, in my conversation Inoticed those sorts of
directorial, directorial choices, and it was interesting in this
(26:37):
case because we've that treelike chandelier yeah, has been a
focal point often throughoutthe the previous five seasons,
and so that upside down scenewe've seen, we've seen the
reflection of it to make itright set up as a tree.
It's been there a lot, and soto have it flip upside down here
(26:59):
, I was like what does that mean?
Because I'm overthinking it, Idon't know.
I don't know what it meant, butI noticed it.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
I would like to have an overthinking logistical
moment.
So Lucifer wakes up, he singsWicked Game game beautifully, I
might add and his father comesin.
We're never entirely clear.
(27:32):
If he was would have sung thaton his own, or if that was God
it?
We're told it's four in themorning.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
He gets a text and then she says I'm surprised
you're here, it's been fourhours.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
I noticed that too now here's the question I have
when was that guy killed?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
there and all those people were there at a game at
four in the friggin morning.
That seems unlikely.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
I think that was a mistake yeah, because I was,
because I was sitting therethinking I was just like, okay,
even if it had happenedovernight or like the night
before, let's say like 8 pm game, 9 pm game, maybe even late,
maybe it was and and they werelike be there, well, I was
thinking they'd be there if theyneeded to.
So let's say it was a late game.
(28:18):
Okay, it took a minute for themto realize this was a murder
and not just a death, becausethey said I thought he was.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Ella figured out it was a murder.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Yeah.
So if they knew it was a murder, I could understand them saying
nobody can go anywhere, wegotta interview everybody.
I could see that, but not for12 hours, and like I don't know
how hot it is in Los Angeles andI don't know what time, what
time of year this is, but likethose, those cheerleading
(28:49):
outfits do not cover much.
And if they were sittingoutside overnight?
Speaker 2 (28:54):
you know, also, like, logistically, if they thought
he was having a heart attack,they would have done CPR and
whoever gave him mouth to mouthwould have also been poisoned.
That is a good point, if I meanassuming they didn't have one
of those bags.
But yeah, yeah, if they thoughthe was having a heart attack,
he would have been, he wouldhave been at the hospital.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
And been on the field yeah and that you know I texted
you four hours ago.
That whole timeline just doesnot make.
Does not make sense.
I have a feeling there was likea different storyline, like
maybe another text that we thatended up on the cutting room
floor or something, because itjust didn't make sense, does not
make sense.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Yeah, so, and it was like they needed everyone to be
there so that they could havethe big musical number.
Obviously, yeah, um, but I'mwondering like if, if his murder
had been accomplished in adifferent way, it would have
made more sense, or if it hadbeen like clearly murder and
like the same night, or it was aday game.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
yeah, something, something about that whole
sequence.
Like isn't I?
It's missing, I think I I haveour writers are too good to have
not seen that.
I have a feeling somethingended up on the cutting floor
that would have made sense ofthat.
Yeah, like, maybe there was atext at four in the morning from
her Cause she was clearly upthat he ignored, and maybe there
(30:20):
was another one you know at,and now it's noon.
Yeah, something like that.
Something like that, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Cause it doesn't.
I agree, yeah.
So if it were like a Saturdaymorning game at 10 AM, yeah,
yeah.
So I do want to say all right.
So the musical numbers we haveWicked Game by Chris Isaac.
We've got Queens, another OneBites the Dust.
We've got Every Breath you Takeby the Police, but sung by
(30:48):
Debbie Gibson.
We've got In the Afterlife bythe Squirrel Nut Zippers.
And then there's that mashup ofBad to the Bone and Scrubs,
tlc's Scrubsippers.
And then there's that mashup ofbat to the butt, oh, bad to the
bone and scrubs, tlc scrubs, um.
And then there's a dream todream from.
Uh, what is that?
Yeah, it's, it's from les mis.
It's, uh, fantine's song.
(31:09):
Basically, this is again clearto me.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Gen xers are making this tv gen xers.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
It's just like, oh, bless you, and they may even be.
They may be even be like oregontrail generation, like us, or
like not quite full gen xers.
But uh, definitely in highschool in the 80s and 90s yeah,
late 80s, early 90s, yeah, late80s and early 90s at the latest,
and I love it so much.
(31:41):
Particularly, I remember seeingpeople talking about this
episode and they're like I don'tknow that In the Afterlife song
and I was just like, oh,clearly you were in high school
in 1996.
Like how did you not know thissong?
Do you not remember the Swingrevival in the mid-90s?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah, yeah, what.
We were all trying to put ourboots back on, yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
So I just, it's one of those things where, like Gen
X is often forgotten about.
You know, you see, like youknow, it's Millennials versus
Boomers.
We're like, hey, that's okay,we'll let ourselves in and get
ourselves a snack, it's well,we've been doing it for forever
right, we were the latchkeygeneration.
(32:24):
So, like whatever squabbly allyou want, we're gonna be over
here making ourselves a grilledcheese and watching mash on
reruns the afternoon while we doour own work right, we raised
our own damn selves.
We did but so, and I like thisis one of those things.
I don't I don't know if this isactually true, but it sometimes
(32:46):
it feels like there are thingsthat are, like, meant to appeal
to boomers and they're likethere are things that are meant
to appeal to millennials,they're like oh yeah, this is
gonna.
You know, just shove this in,they're gonna love it, and so,
like this, I'm just like I'mokay with being appealed to my
turn damn it I'm down with thismusic.
(33:10):
So, um, yeah, I, I actually Iwas singing along as I watched.
Yeah, I was singing along as Iwatched, yeah, yeah, I also, I
do want to talk about, at thevery end, what was really, and
so we don't get into thespecifics Exactly here, but this
is again as talked about mentalhealth.
(33:31):
It's it's like a, an adultchild, seeing their parent
experience dementia orAlzheimer's or something along
those lines, or just losingmobility, losing independence.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Decline in general.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Yes, and the way that Tom Ellis is able to go from
angry, overwhelmed with sadness,resentful at what his father
has done to him, to like, oh myGod, dad, are you okay?
With one word and his face yeah, and I also.
(34:08):
It reminded me of how growingup partially is about learning
that your parents are realpeople and recognizing that you
know they do the best they can,but they're they're.
They're people they're.
You know they're flawed humanbeings.
And so you go from you know, achild who is like worshiping
(34:30):
your parents, to like theteenager who's rebelling against
them, to an adult who's, likeyou know, counting on them, to
in some way or another, to likerecognizing like, oh gosh, this
is, they're not eternal and thatthat is uh like.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
he instantly wasn't worried about his resentments
anymore the complication oftheir relationship actually
across these two episodes isreally interesting too, where he
in in the previous episode herecognizes that.
I mean he says at the dinnertable, if all the apples are
rotten, maybe there's a problemwith the tree.
And then when he they, whenthey, when they catch the killer
(35:13):
and it turns out to be thegirlfriend, and the dad is also
there.
And because the dad sacrificedhimself because he was afraid
he'd lose another child, and sodid his kid and he's.
And then he's sort of likeshe's like get the gun, because
he's like off in his head, andthat's that's the moment he's
realizing, that's the moment thecharacter is realizing that he
is incapable of loving.
That's what he thinks, becausehe told his father his father
(35:34):
was incapable of loving.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
That's what he thinks because he told his father, his
father was incapable of loving.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
And then he said the thing about the tree and the
apples, and so that that wasactually beautifully written, so
that I could, so that I couldstring those breadcrumbs.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, yeah, that, that true line is very clear.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
And then he says that to to Chloe episode, and, and
and now in this, this secondepisode, in the karaoke jam, at
that very end where you'retalking about, where Ellis so
beautifully brings us along on aquite a long emotional journey
very, very quickly, um, from oneto another.
(36:10):
I mean there's there there'ssomething really similar to
about like the push and pull ofthe ways in which we are alike
and not like ways we are thesame and separate from our
parents.
That I think is really humanand resonant and interesting.
That I really appreciated inthat that in these two episodes
(36:35):
and further, the power of chosenfamily too.
I mean, even in chloe, whenshe's like no, I don't believe
it, and the way she says I havefaith in you is like it's a
thing that we one might say tosomeone out, to a you know, a
friend, a human, I just rememberanother song.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
So, uh, just the two of us, but the the will smith
version oh, there's also the onethat um trixie sings.
Oh yes, yes, that's an oldstandard with you.
Yes, sorry, sorry, I just ithit me because I was thinking
about, um, like, parenting andand family, and ameniel saying
(37:18):
like let me be mortal instead.
And so one of the things that Ifound really odd in parenting
was when, like my particularlymy eldest was tiny, like I knew
he was separate from me, I knewhe was a different person from
(37:38):
me, but it wasn't until he hewent to a language intensive
preschool when he was like twoand a half three years old and
he went on.
He took a bus to go and he wasso excited and I wasn't there
with him and I wasn'texperiencing it with him.
And that was the first time itreally hit me as like he is his
own person doing his own thing.
(37:59):
That is not about me and like,obviously you know, like, of
course, but there was, there wasthis emotional sense of like,
of a separation that had notbeen there before.
And I was reminded of that withAmenadiel, like you know, like
let me be the one who is mortalbecause there is this sense of
(38:23):
like.
I am my child, my child is me,I will take on what is difficult
so my child doesn't have tohave it.
My child doesn't have to do it.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
You know, interestingly in these two
episodes we get sort of spectrumof that you know from from a
mena deal which is if, if feudal, maybe also healthy.
Um to debbie gibson's characteroh, yes, where she's still so
(38:55):
wrapped up in them being thesame person she doesn't even
know who is who her son is whothe?
17 year old kid is yeah.
Who is her son?
Speaker 3 (39:03):
JJ yeah, and that's.
That's one of those thingswhere, like I, I remember when
that happened and I had thatlike that odd feeling and it was
uncomfortable and I rememberthinking like, oh, I can kind of
understand how, likeoverbearing and narcissistic
(39:24):
parents can can do that isbecause, like when that happened
, it was uncomfortable and I waslike I just need to embrace
this because this is what I'mdoing, this is what the point is
.
You know, and you know otherfolks who aren't as
introspective or are more, moreuncomfortable with discomfort
might be like Nope, they're me,I'm them, you know, but that's
(39:49):
yeah, it's uh.
What's also interesting is thatthat also kind of from the
other side of it.
You know Lucifer as the childis.
You know I've read that.
You know very tiny children havetrouble differentiating between
themselves and their caretakers.
(40:09):
You know when it makes sense,and so this like separation that
Lucifer and Dennis Haysbert'scharacter I struggle to call him
, god, right, I have have gonethrough is it's kind of like the
(40:32):
.
You know the realization thatthey're there.
They are separate.
You know the child'srealization they're separate,
which I suspect must be kind oftraumatic, depending on how it
happens and when it happens.
And then moving through, likeall of the stages of anger and
resentment and all of that, andthen the reminder again, but
(40:55):
that they.
There is a separation betweenthem, but they are connected.
When seeing a parent'svulnerability, just to overthink
it a lot, parents'vulnerability, just to overthink
it a lot.
By the way, part of the reasonwhy I struggle to call Dennis
Haysbert God is because God'spronouns are God, so I do not
(41:16):
like using he, him pronouns withGod.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Yeah, I'm with you.
I'm with you.
I actually I want to come backto something I was talking about
, though yes, I'm sorry, Iinterrupted you in them when
Chloe says that she has faith in.
Lucifer and the significance.
I mean, that is a sentence thatI might say to another, to a
friend, right?
And also, she's not just sayingit to another human being,
she's saying it to the devil.
(41:40):
And I think there's somethingreally fascinating and
interesting about saying to thedevil I have faith in you, in
particular, because what she'ssaying is I have faith that you
are capable of love.
That's what she's saying to thedevil, and the use of that word
faith, I don't think iscoincidental or accidental on
(42:04):
the part of our writers.
It may be on the part of ChloeDecker, but not on the part of
our writers.
Yeah, and I, I find that reallyfascinating and very satisfying
and I think it actually gave him.
I, I don't know.
I want to go back and rewatchthat scene now that I'm talking
about it, because it goes prettyquickly where he just he just
(42:25):
feels overwhelmed and and likehe's disappointing her, he's
letting her down and he knows itand he just, he just feels like
his it's just, he just feelsbroken.
I mean clearly, because in thenext scene his dad says I can't
fix you.
And he says you can't or youwon't, right and and like the
(42:47):
reaction is I don't need to be.
The reaction is not I don'tneed to be fixed.
He wants to be fixed.
He thinks that, he thinks he'sbroken.
So having her say that I don'tknow I.
There's something like deeplybeautiful to me about having
this human being who we'veestablished is one of the few
who can actually see him.
Yes, yeah, say it in that way.
(43:09):
Not just I love you, I havefaith in you.
I think that's reallysignificant and, like I, just if
y'all ever see it, like Joe LD,whoever wrote this, I saw it
and it's beautiful and thank you.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Yeah, I, I, you.
It made me realize that how,how similar maze, maze's story
and Lucifer's story are in thesetwo episodes.
Cause she's having the samereaction Like I, I.
There's something wrong with me.
I can't fix it.
You need to fix it.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
And and and and.
The connection is what'smissing?
Right, I'm broken.
She's saying I'm broken becauseI don't have a soul.
That's why I can't connect.
He's saying I'm broken becauseI'm his kid and I'm incapable of
love.
But both are saying, you'reright, Different versions of the
same thing.
Yeah, I'm incapable or I'munworthy.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
Yeah, yeah.
And what's interesting is thatthe reaction like Haysbert's
reaction in both cases is islike that's you know you, you
are you, and so when, like whenhe says I can't fix you, it's
because there's nothing to befixed and that's I don't know.
(44:31):
There's there, there issomething to like him saying you
wanted his kids to have freewill and you know part of what's
going on here is is like youknow there's nothing to be fixed
and you also need to to workthis out on your own.
You need to be an emotionallatchkey kid.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Well, you have to I can't fix you I.
He says I can't fix you,lucifer, only lucifer can fix
lucifer, because there's nothingwrong with lucifer we're both
back and forth muting our micbecause of the loudness in our
houses.
Maybe that's a sign from theuniverse that it's time for us
(45:10):
to say we've overthunk it enough.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
Do you have any?
Speaker 2 (45:13):
fluff you want to share.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
I do.
I've got one piece of fluffwhich is it's one of those like
it's a continuity issue inFamily Dinner.
At the end, lucifer takes offhis tie and he gets up and he
throws it on top of the platterof chicken.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
I thought that was his napkin.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
It was a tie, and I know because I went back cause I
was just like what the heck isthat?
And like it was gross to me outthat he put it on the platter
of chicken too, cause I'm likeand what?
And then the very next scene,like like it's, it's less than
five seconds later, the platteris moved further to the left and
the tie is on the table to theright of it, and I was just like
(45:57):
, oh, I wish I hadn't noticedthat I, yeah, I saw him through.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
I I read that as a napkin, but I did see him take
the tie off because he's likeI'm done with this and he like
starts taking the tie off.
Yeah, um, I don't know if thiscounts it's so loud here.
I don't know if this counts asfluff, but the scene when Dennis
Haysbert comes in with the tray, the breakfast tray, and
(46:23):
Lucifer sleeping on his tummy onthe couch, naked, and he sits
up and so we're just like gracedwith this, like chest and
collarbones and like that's mysexual orientation, that scene
with the chest and thecollarbones and the coffee and
(46:46):
the like, there's just one pieceof hair.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
Yes, and when he is like it's a little bit better
Like the noise he makes, yes.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
That's it.
That is my current sexualorientation.
It may change, but right nowthat's it.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
Can I just say, just overthinking it, he's like dad
and I'm like.
You're sleeping on the sofa inan open plan.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
And we know he has pajamas because we saw them when
he was playing like a game,like put on your pajamas, I'm
like why are you sleeping nakedwhen your dad's right there?
It's like 15 feet away.
I mean it was a nice funnyscene because, like I've seen
naked, if I had a nickel for allthis.
(47:38):
Yeah, that was very funny.
And also we know he ownspajamas.
We've seen him recently, yeahyeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
One other thing I do want to mention real quick is
ella trying to get back to hernormal self after everything's
happened.
I wish that she had we'd givenher a little bit more time in
these couple of episodes, but Ireally appreciated the
conversation that dan has withher and the fact that when he's
(48:10):
like he had all of us fooled andshe's like oh yeah, yeah, of
course that's right, cause youslept with him too, and like
she's like, yeah, dan, that'sthat's not helpful.
You know, she, she has a verydifferent experience and like,
honestly, I don't know how onegets over the ick factor of
(48:32):
knowing that you were intimatewith someone who was that evil.
But I like Dan's trying and Iappreciate it, I really
appreciate that he's trying.
So I just wanted to give alittle moment to that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
Yeah, yeah.
And the way that like, in fact,the way that Ella is like
talking about it, is like theydon't, her friends don't know
what to do or say you know, andshe's like oh, I know who did it
.
Just introduce me to all of thesuspects and whichever one I'm
most attracted to, that's theone that did it Like, yeah, I
don't blame Ella for saying orthinking or feeling that way and
also like I also don't blameher friends for, like, not
(49:11):
knowing what to say.
Speaker 3 (49:12):
Yeah, I also.
I appreciated where, likeChloe's, like Dan, go home, and
he's like, oh, I need to work.
And he's like you werekidnapped, you should stay home.
And then they're like, at leastElla's at home, oh, it's Ella.
And they're like we're notgoing to argue with you.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
Really, I have like five or six documents.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I reallythink we should call it.
I'm calling it.
Speaker 3 (49:39):
Okay, have we overthunk it enough?
We have overthunk it.
Oh my goodness, so muchoverthinking.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
Our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetechcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(50:09):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
with them and visit the shownotes for other ways to connect.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hi, I'm here with my sister, Emily Guy-Burken.
She does not use a hyphen.
I'm here with my sister, EmilyGuy-Burken.
She does not use a hyphen.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
That's true, and I'm here with my sister, tracy
Guy-Decker, and she does use ahyphen.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
And together we are Lightbringers where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
.
And yeah, we're overthinking it.
So much overthinking, and todaywe are going to overthink
episodes 509 and 510, familyDinner and Bloody Celestial
(00:52):
Karaoke Jam.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yes, so in these two episodes we are introduced to
Dennis Haysbert as God Almighty,you know it's funny, dennis
Haysbert, as God Almighty, youknow it's funny.
In the rewatch you said this.
You said this last time aboutthe Pete episodes, about how,
like in your memory, you kind oflike forget the like creepy
(01:15):
serial killer and you onlyremember the fun parts, like
when Lucifer's like runningaround in the background trying
to test his mojo on everyone.
Yeah, I find the same thingabout these two where I remember
in my memory both of theseepisodes are hilarious and they
are uh, but there's alsoactually quite a bit of pathos,
uh, yeah, like this, likesadness and empathy and like
(01:40):
struggle and loneliness that Ijust forget until I'm sitting in
front of the screen again.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
So I I do have to say , even though I knew it was
coming the line you do have afuton right Again, just took me
out.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, I remember that one as well.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Not only the, the, the line like as written, but
how Haysbert delivers.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Haysbert is so satisfying, as God just has that
sort of like.
It's not a grin exactly but,just sort of like the satisfied,
satisfied smile through most ofhis delivery.
He's very satisfying.
Um yeah, yeah.
So okay, let's.
(02:37):
Let's stay with the firstepisode, with the family dinner.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
I think it's really interesting that Chloe is so
completely embraced the ideathat Lucifer projects his own
problems onto the case of theweek, that she's actually
comforted when she realizes thathe instantly suspects the
family and she's like the family, not the girlfriend.
(03:04):
She's like okay now, like she'sbeen in this very anxious space
since he literally disappearedfrom her perspective.
Just disappeared when he wasabout to say he loved her in the
evidence room, and then shefinds him, however long, much
later, like reveling at Lux.
So I appreciated that, like asa long-time viewer, like I felt,
(03:30):
like let's yeah, it happens andshe notices it too like let's
just run with it and embrace it.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Yeah, actually I enjoyed that yeah and it she's
got this tough line to walk,both the actress and the and and
the character.
You know cause she has likefallen for this guy who she
knows is a bad romantic choice.
(03:59):
Um, you know she'd had thatconversation with linda.
You know, right before they gotthey they had sex for the first
time, where it's just like, oh,he was a narcissist with huge
daddy problems and commitmentissues and, you know, overgrown
teenager and you know all of thedifferent things.
So you know she has every rightto be furious at him and she
(04:22):
makes it very clear like, okay,I'm not going to do that and I
am not sure how I feel aboutthat.
You know, obviously, in the show, as a shipper, I'm like, yeah,
let him take the time he needs.
It's not about you.
But you know, as a womannavigating the world who has
(04:46):
consistently been explicitly andimplicitly asked to let him
have his thing, you know, lethim have his freak out or just
forgive something, or he wasn'treally, he didn't really mean it
.
It's about his family.
It's blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.
And I'm not talkingspecifically about my current
partner, I'm just talking aboutit in general, you know, cause
(05:11):
it's not just about romantic.
I mean it's blah blah blah, andI'm not talking specifically
about my current partner, I'mjust talking about it in general
, you know, because it's notjust about romantic.
I mean it's, you know, at work,it's friends, it's, it's
teachers, it's everybody.
I like that is frustrating.
It's frustrating and at thesame time it's it seems that's
what would happen.
You know, that's because we, aswomen, have been socialized to
do that.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah, I had similar thoughts.
So I was like I, I don't thinkshe owes him an apology.
You know, like, even from herperspective, I don't think she
owes him an apology.
And, in particular, like I feellike there should have been
more.
Like, how did you disappear?
Like he was there and then hewasn't, like the rest of the
people in the precinct thoughtthat there had been an
(05:54):
earthquake because the glass hadshattered and stuff.
But yeah, I, I feel like Iagree with you on all counts and
I wonder, like if I could, if Icould rewrite it, maybe I would
push harder on the curiosity.
Yeah, and I think that mightnot have been out of character
for chloe decker, who, like,wants to solve mysteries,
(06:19):
because we know that he can,like you know whatever, fly and
move pretty quickly.
But they were standing, youknow, really close, and then she
blinked and he was gone andthat I don't think he's done to
her before.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
I will say that, considering where she was,
emotionally, I could see herbeing like I can't poke that,
yeah.
Emotionally, I could see herbeing like I can't poke that
Like, and feeling like I can'tbe curious about that Cause I
don't.
I can't know what happened,because if I do like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yeah, yeah, and that's why she apologized too,
cause it was easy, it was a way,it was a path forward that she
had control over.
So that makes sense.
Absolutely.
Yeah, yep.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Yep, I'd like to talk about the actual dinner.
yeah, so poor linda when aminute feels like you almost
made it I love their, theirlittle interactions because,
well, part of what's so greatabout this scene is that it is
(07:23):
very familiar to anyone who'sbeen at an uncomfortable family
dinner.
And linda is like the personwho married in, even though she
and amenadiel aren't togetheranymore, and like they're
whispered back and forth likewhen she she was like I just
thank god for napkins.
He's like you did better than Iwould have.
Um, that that was really like.
(07:45):
It's one of the reasons whythis show is so beloved and
feels so universal in some ways,even though it's about things
that are clearly not universal.
Yeah, that really struck me in away that made me change how I
(08:07):
think about the character Dennis.
Like Dennis Haysbert plays asGod, so I think he's supposed to
be played, supposed to be like,likable.
I mean like it's, for one thing, he's Dennis Haysbert who's
just charming.
I mean just charming, Charmingand handsome and that gorgeous
(08:28):
voice and all of that.
And then also the way thatthey've written him is as
someone who's well-meaning butkind of screwed up but also kind
(08:50):
of didn't it's.
Lucifer starts talking abouthow Amenadiel self-actualized
the loss of his powers and hiswings, oppression, whether it's
something like really structured, like like a religion or cult,
or just being a woman in in inin the world, or a black person
(09:11):
in America, or anything likethat.
One of the ways that the youknow?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
the structure exerts power is by having you
internalize the shame.
It's one of the four eyes ofoppression.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
I did not know.
There were four eyes ofoppression.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Four eyes of oppression internalized,
interpersonal, institutional andideological.
Yeah, and the internalized is a.
It's a pillar, because that waythe oppressor is oppressing
even when he's not around.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Yes, so you're self-policing and you're
policing others.
And so what got me about that?
Because I've always, you know,the first time through that
didn't strike me, and I'vealways liked the, the, this
sense that angels self-actualize, um, because it's elegant in a
(10:05):
lot of ways in terms ofstorytelling and also in you
know what in this universe thisGod has created and all of that.
It also is clear in the likethat God wanted his children to
make their own way, and this isone way that happens make their
(10:30):
own way, and this is one waythat happens.
But the way that Amenadielself-actualized feels like
internalized oppression becausehe was feeling shame and that's
why he did that, and so I mean,that's where Lucifer's face
comes from too.
That to me like puts a realsinister cast over dennis
haisbert's character in that ithad to have like that
(10:55):
internalized shame, had to havecome from somewhere, and so I
thought that it was really welldone in terms of like when
Lucifer is confronting hisfather at the dinner table and
he's bringing up things that arelegitimate concerns with a
(11:19):
narcissistic parent, and wedon't get any kind of real
catharsis in that, that sceneand uh, it's, it's, it's a lot
and it it had.
I.
I was wondering how much joeand ildy and the and you know
(11:43):
the team were trying to getacross in terms of actual bad
parenthood, because hazebert isso lovable, whereas in some ways
it would be easier if, if godremained absent.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Uh, in the, in the, the show I read that, you know,
earlier in the season in theseries they had all.
They had never intended to showgod, they never intended to
show hell either, and they brokeboth of those as the series
went on, which is interesting.
(12:23):
In some ways, it would beeasier, and I think that's also
real Like there are very fewpeople who are truly just bad
people.
I mean, you and I know one ortwo, but but there aren't very
many in the world who are trulyjust plain bad people.
Yeah, and I think that.
So that feels sort of accurate,especially since, you know, when
(12:48):
Dan is like, he's like above,like petty foibles and stuff,
and a minute ago it's like, well, no, I don't think he is, you
know, like the reminder that Godis one of us, uh, to quote that
song.
Anyway, what I think is reallyI'm I'm thinking a lot about
(13:08):
metaphor lately, separate anddifferent from Lucifer, I'm just
I'm reading a book aboutmetaphor and I'm just like
thinking a lot about the waysthat we use metaphor humans.
Humans use metaphor to learnnew concepts, and the thing
that's really really elegant andsatisfying about
self-actualization is that themetaphor becomes real right.
(13:30):
The elegant and satisfying aboutself-actualization is that the
metaphor becomes real right.
The metaphor is actually solike the vulnerability, even
talking about vulnerability as ametaphor for emotional
closeness, you know.
So to make the metaphor, thenyou know, actualize is really
powerful and satisfying, becausemetaphors are satisfying.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
I think that's.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Because metaphors are satisfying.
I think that's I think it'sreally fascinating.
I think I'm less to me theshame is less damning of Hays
for its God than it is for you,because I think that it's a it's
(14:03):
, it's a complicated emotion.
I agree it comes from somewhere, but it's not entirely, it's
not entirely from outside, right, I think there's.
There's definitely someinternalization and there's some
like cooking inside.
That happens.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
I think the well, and the the, the fact, that fact
that Michael's shoulder iscrooked and Lucifer says to him
like you know, you got such achip on your shoulder, a chip
manifested it, and then the factthat Lucifer is vulnerable,
like physically vulnerable,around Chloe because he's
(14:40):
emotionally vulnerable aroundher, like that to me feels very
elegant, although, come to thinkof it, the reason Amenadiel was
, he lost his powers and he losthis wings.
I was focusing on the fact thathe and Maze had a relationship
(15:02):
and it might be that, but he hadbeen responsible for the deaths
of some of people, of somehumans, in which case I'm kind
of okay with feeling shame andmanifesting that exactly so okay
that that's.
I had forgotten that, but that'sthat's yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
So the other thing that's really interesting about
the fact that Amenadiel'ssuffering is what Lucifer brings
to his father is that it'sAmenadiel's suffering.
I mean he does talk about hisown, but because Michael brings
it up first, you had a kingdomto rule over.
You had a kingdom to rule over,right.
(15:42):
That's why he brings up howhorrible it was to be in hell
and to be forced to torturesouls.
He doesn't bring it up on hisown.
He doesn't say like I made abad decision and you cut me off
for the millennia.
He says look what you did to mybrother and let him suffer when
(16:03):
you could have eased hissuffering.
And to me that offers a levelof emotional maturity from
Lucifer that we don't usuallysee.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Yeah, we definitely would not have seen in season
one.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Agreed Not at all he had zero empathy for his brother
in season one, I mean, and hedoes it all while he's shoving
food in his mouth and talkingwith his mouth full, which is
really unpleasant.
But you know, I said that'ssort of that's something that
stood out to me, and and theneven more so as you were talking
about that confrontation.
So in that scene, moment ofoverthinking, we've talked about
(16:37):
names before hazeburg and theythey mispronounce it.
It wouldn't have been Michael,it would have Michael and they
don't have the.
But even even like anAmericanized version, it should
be Michael, cause it anywaysmall thing, uh, maybe even
fluff, but it's like as it.
(16:57):
As they were like, yeah, I kindof like the sound of that, so
my, my mym-i-k-i-l or whatever,yeah, and I was like no, no, no,
no, no, no no you know, can wemove on from the dinner itself?
absolutely so.
The other moment that I want totalk about and think about is
(17:21):
maze, and when maze comes totalk to god, when she's dressed
like little red riding hoodinexplicably.
Um, yeah, that scene again.
Like I forget about it when Ihaven't recently rewatched, I
think in part because it is soheart-wrenching yeah that she
(17:46):
feels this lack which isultimately loneliness, and
that's why I have a hard timemaking connections.
She says you know, and?
And when he says you're perfect, just as you are, like she just
can't hear that.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Well, that's one of those where it can feel like a
slap in the face.
Yeah, clearly, when you'reconvinced that there's something
wrong with you and someone elsesays no, of course there's not,
and you're like, what's wrongwith you that you can't see this
(18:26):
, yeah, yeah.
And so I mean that's one of thereasons why I love that this
show, I feel like for the mostpart, does such a good job like
showing and discussing mentalhealth, even when it's not doing
it directly, because that is avery clear.
I feel like I've mentioned thisat some point before, but it
(18:49):
reminded me of how, after RobinWilliams died, I was reading an
opinion article by a comediantalking about how you know that
a comedian considers you afriend when they're not funny in
front of you and you know, andif you are like, hey, where's
(19:10):
the, where's the funny guy?
Or something like that, they'llput the mask back up and you
and it will be a completesurprise.
Now, with with Williams, therewas clearly something the Lewy
body dimension, all of thatwhich was only somewhat related
to, to, like, his lifelongdepression.
But I'm just thinking aboutthat.
That's like when she takes offthe the, I mean, she shows her
(19:34):
her real face, demon face, andand says like, do you think this
is perfect?
That is so real for someone whois experiencing self-loathing
in that, like you know, how canyou possibly think that I'm
perfect, just as I am, when I'mthis horrible creature?
And in part because God is soremote, and this is the first
(20:04):
time she's, I think, met him,it's going to be impossible to
take that from him, whereas Ifeel like if Amenadiel had said
it, she might have been able tohear some portion of it.
Maybe, maybe it's, but yes,that was.
(20:25):
That was just heartbreaking.
I also, I have to say I lovethe through line of him always
having the exact right drink forsomeone.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
When she like it's all right.
And then he turns his back andhe's just like oh funny, I don't
.
And Leslie and Brant like theway that she like, just like I
think your whole mouth in thatlike martini glass.
That was pretty great, oh my.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
God, that was great, that was so good, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Then the next scene, when we see her talking to
Michael at Lux, like we alreadydon't like Michael, the writers
have already given us plenty ofreason to despise Michael, which
, you know, lucifer makes cleanwhen he says what Michael has
done since he's been on earth.
And again in that scene I meanthere's, there's a moment of
(21:17):
connection between him and mazeover their disdain for God which
, like, makes him all the moredespicable because, not only
because we're well, they'replanting the seeds so that we
can start to realize that notonly is he duplicitous with his
(21:38):
siblings and and humans, he'salso being duplicitous with his
father, which I don't think.
I think that's the first timewe see that seed.
They, like we may be suspectthat he's not being fully
truthful, like surely he didn'ttell God that he was going to go
down and like try and breakLucifer's life before he left
(22:04):
the silver city.
But you know that I'll go, I'llstay with you and let like,
let's go back, like all that.
And then we just saw when, uh,hayesworth scott says that's a
bad idea to go home.
Yeah, yeah, I don't think.
I think the conversation withmaze then makes that converse,
the conversation with dad, allthe more smarmy, which is really
an interesting also set up forus around Haysbert Scott, that
(22:26):
cause, you're not sure, does heknow, does he not know?
And that adds to the layers ofcomplexity that they're trying
to give us with him by havinghim banish I'm putting quotes
around that, michael, whilesticking around to spend time
with Lucifer.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Anyway, I, you know, the thing that struck me in that
scene is even as despicable asMichael is.
Scene is, um, even asdespicable as michael is.
It was proof that maze is notcorrect when she says she can't
connect with people, because shedoes connect with michael and
in a genuine way, like not likehe's not playing her at that
(23:07):
point, right, um, even thoughhe's always playing somebody and
he connects with her in a waythat she can hear and she's like
, oh, what, you come to saygoodbye.
He's like, well, all the people, I don't entirely hate you,
which is like high praise forMaze and like, oh, he's all
(23:28):
right.
And I found that scene watchingit again this time, I found it
Endearing is too strong.
Scene.
Watching it again this time, Ifound it endearing is too strong
.
But it was like there's, thereis something in michael that is
worthwhile in that he did makesure to talk to maize because
she was someone he had connectedwith for whatever reason.
(23:52):
And that's like, as ickish asMichael is and as despicable as
he will become, you know, weknow what's coming up there's
still the opportunity for growth, there's still the opportunity
for him to become better thanwhat he is and I appreciate that
(24:15):
just because that's.
That's what the show is aboutthat's.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah, that is the undercurrent of the whole show.
Absolutely, absolutely, yeah.
Let's move on to the otherepisode, the bloody celestial
karaoke jam so this is like kindof fluffy, but that first scene
when he's singing the wickedways, wicked game.
Yeah, wicked game.
Right, thank you uh when hekicks over the, the, the bench
(24:46):
piano bench oh so I I saw um,they actually the director
wanted it like they had to filmit in slow-mo because of the
spin, so he actually was singingin double time, so that I mean,
I think that they overdub himsinging in a studio.
Absolutely, yeah, but he wassinging in double time so that
(25:08):
the lips would match.
When they slowed it down toslow-mo, wow right, that's so
cool, I know.
Yeah.
So the direct like well, thethe thing that I saw that talked
about it the director was likeyeah, he's such a trooper.
I told him we had to do itdouble time and he was like okay
, well, the director is sherwinshalotti, who he?
Speaker 3 (25:32):
he's the one who did um god johnson back in season
two I think um where, and.
And he did that gorgeous likepanning shot of of the chaos and
then, yeah, the chaos and thepsychiatric ward.
So I was like, okay, yeah, thatthat fits, that this is is he
the one who did the one with umdetective?
Speaker 2 (25:54):
amenadiel?
Is that he the I?
Speaker 3 (25:56):
don't know.
You know what I meant to look,Because I think he's also the
one who did.
You can't just go in there andsay, hello, drug dealers.
He's like I never do that.
And then he did it in Korean.
I think he's the same directorof that All right, pause, I'm
going to look it up.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Okay, so it's not the same guy as the detective
amenadiel episode.
That was nathan hope.
I was wondering because there'sa similar moment of the camera
sort of following and turningupside down, which, like I, I
would never have picked up onthat in my first run through,
but watching for these for youand I.
You know, in my conversation Inoticed those sorts of
directorial, directorial choices, and it was interesting in this
(26:37):
case because we've that treelike chandelier yeah, has been a
focal point often throughoutthe the previous five seasons,
and so that upside down scenewe've seen, we've seen the
reflection of it to make itright set up as a tree.
It's been there a lot, and soto have it flip upside down here
(26:59):
, I was like what does that mean?
Because I'm overthinking it, Idon't know.
I don't know what it meant, butI noticed it.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
I would like to have an overthinking logistical
moment.
So Lucifer wakes up, he singsWicked Game game beautifully, I
might add and his father comesin.
We're never entirely clear.
(27:32):
If he was would have sung thaton his own, or if that was God
it?
We're told it's four in themorning.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
He gets a text and then she says I'm surprised
you're here, it's been fourhours.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
I noticed that too now here's the question I have
when was that guy killed?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
there and all those people were there at a game at
four in the friggin morning.
That seems unlikely.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
I think that was a mistake yeah, because I was,
because I was sitting therethinking I was just like, okay,
even if it had happenedovernight or like the night
before, let's say like 8 pm game, 9 pm game, maybe even late,
maybe it was and and they werelike be there, well, I was
thinking they'd be there if theyneeded to.
So let's say it was a late game.
(28:18):
Okay, it took a minute for themto realize this was a murder
and not just a death, becausethey said I thought he was.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Ella figured out it was a murder.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Yeah.
So if they knew it was a murder, I could understand them saying
nobody can go anywhere, wegotta interview everybody.
I could see that, but not for12 hours, and like I don't know
how hot it is in Los Angeles andI don't know what time, what
time of year this is, but likethose, those cheerleading
(28:49):
outfits do not cover much.
And if they were sittingoutside overnight?
Speaker 2 (28:54):
you know, also, like, logistically, if they thought
he was having a heart attack,they would have done CPR and
whoever gave him mouth to mouthwould have also been poisoned.
That is a good point, if I meanassuming they didn't have one
of those bags.
But yeah, yeah, if they thoughthe was having a heart attack,
he would have been, he wouldhave been at the hospital.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
And been on the field yeah and that you know I texted
you four hours ago.
That whole timeline just doesnot make.
Does not make sense.
I have a feeling there was likea different storyline, like
maybe another text that we thatended up on the cutting room
floor or something, because itjust didn't make sense, does not
make sense.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Yeah, so, and it was like they needed everyone to be
there so that they could havethe big musical number.
Obviously, yeah, um, but I'mwondering like if, if his murder
had been accomplished in adifferent way, it would have
made more sense, or if it hadbeen like clearly murder and
like the same night, or it was aday game.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
yeah, something, something about that whole
sequence.
Like isn't I?
It's missing, I think I I haveour writers are too good to have
not seen that.
I have a feeling somethingended up on the cutting floor
that would have made sense ofthat.
Yeah, like, maybe there was atext at four in the morning from
her Cause she was clearly upthat he ignored, and maybe there
(30:20):
was another one you know at,and now it's noon.
Yeah, something like that.
Something like that, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Cause it doesn't.
I agree, yeah.
So if it were like a Saturdaymorning game at 10 AM, yeah,
yeah.
So I do want to say all right.
So the musical numbers we haveWicked Game by Chris Isaac.
We've got Queens, another OneBites the Dust.
We've got Every Breath you Takeby the Police, but sung by
(30:48):
Debbie Gibson.
We've got In the Afterlife bythe Squirrel Nut Zippers.
And then there's that mashup ofBad to the Bone and Scrubs,
tlc's Scrubsippers.
And then there's that mashup ofbat to the butt, oh, bad to the
bone and scrubs, tlc scrubs, um.
And then there's a dream todream from.
Uh, what is that?
Yeah, it's, it's from les mis.
It's, uh, fantine's song.
(31:09):
Basically, this is again clearto me.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Gen xers are making this tv gen xers.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
It's just like, oh, bless you, and they may even be.
They may be even be like oregontrail generation, like us, or
like not quite full gen xers.
But uh, definitely in highschool in the 80s and 90s yeah,
late 80s, early 90s, yeah, late80s and early 90s at the latest,
and I love it so much.
(31:41):
Particularly, I remember seeingpeople talking about this
episode and they're like I don'tknow that In the Afterlife song
and I was just like, oh,clearly you were in high school
in 1996.
Like how did you not know thissong?
Do you not remember the Swingrevival in the mid-90s?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah, yeah, what.
We were all trying to put ourboots back on, yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
So I just, it's one of those things where, like Gen
X is often forgotten about.
You know, you see, like youknow, it's Millennials versus
Boomers.
We're like, hey, that's okay,we'll let ourselves in and get
ourselves a snack, it's well,we've been doing it for forever
right, we were the latchkeygeneration.
(32:24):
So, like whatever squabbly allyou want, we're gonna be over
here making ourselves a grilledcheese and watching mash on
reruns the afternoon while we doour own work right, we raised
our own damn selves.
We did but so, and I like thisis one of those things.
I don't I don't know if this isactually true, but it sometimes
(32:46):
it feels like there are thingsthat are, like, meant to appeal
to boomers and they're likethere are things that are meant
to appeal to millennials,they're like oh yeah, this is
gonna.
You know, just shove this in,they're gonna love it, and so,
like this, I'm just like I'mokay with being appealed to my
turn damn it I'm down with thismusic.
(33:10):
So, um, yeah, I, I actually Iwas singing along as I watched.
Yeah, I was singing along as Iwatched, yeah, yeah, I also, I
do want to talk about, at thevery end, what was really, and
so we don't get into thespecifics Exactly here, but this
is again as talked about mentalhealth.
(33:31):
It's it's like a, an adultchild, seeing their parent
experience dementia orAlzheimer's or something along
those lines, or just losingmobility, losing independence.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Decline in general.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Yes, and the way that Tom Ellis is able to go from
angry, overwhelmed with sadness,resentful at what his father
has done to him, to like, oh myGod, dad, are you okay?
With one word and his face yeah, and I also.
(34:08):
It reminded me of how growingup partially is about learning
that your parents are realpeople and recognizing that you
know they do the best they can,but they're they're.
They're people they're.
You know they're flawed humanbeings.
And so you go from you know, achild who is like worshiping
(34:30):
your parents, to like theteenager who's rebelling against
them, to an adult who's, likeyou know, counting on them, to
in some way or another, to likerecognizing like, oh gosh, this
is, they're not eternal and thatthat is uh like.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
he instantly wasn't worried about his resentments
anymore the complication oftheir relationship actually
across these two episodes isreally interesting too, where he
in in the previous episode herecognizes that.
I mean he says at the dinnertable, if all the apples are
rotten, maybe there's a problemwith the tree.
And then when he they, whenthey, when they catch the killer
(35:13):
and it turns out to be thegirlfriend, and the dad is also
there.
And because the dad sacrificedhimself because he was afraid
he'd lose another child, and sodid his kid and he's.
And then he's sort of likeshe's like get the gun, because
he's like off in his head, andthat's that's the moment he's
realizing, that's the moment thecharacter is realizing that he
is incapable of loving.
That's what he thinks, becausehe told his father his father
(35:34):
was incapable of loving.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
That's what he thinks because he told his father, his
father was incapable of loving.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
And then he said the thing about the tree and the
apples, and so that that wasactually beautifully written, so
that I could, so that I couldstring those breadcrumbs.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, yeah, that, that true line is very clear.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
And then he says that to to Chloe episode, and, and
and now in this, this secondepisode, in the karaoke jam, at
that very end where you'retalking about, where Ellis so
beautifully brings us along on aquite a long emotional journey
very, very quickly, um, from oneto another.
(36:10):
I mean there's there there'ssomething really similar to
about like the push and pull ofthe ways in which we are alike
and not like ways we are thesame and separate from our
parents.
That I think is really humanand resonant and interesting.
That I really appreciated inthat that in these two episodes
(36:35):
and further, the power of chosenfamily too.
I mean, even in chloe, whenshe's like no, I don't believe
it, and the way she says I havefaith in you is like it's a
thing that we one might say tosomeone out, to a you know, a
friend, a human, I just rememberanother song.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
So, uh, just the two of us, but the the will smith
version oh, there's also the onethat um trixie sings.
Oh yes, yes, that's an oldstandard with you.
Yes, sorry, sorry, I just ithit me because I was thinking
about, um, like, parenting andand family, and ameniel saying
(37:18):
like let me be mortal instead.
And so one of the things that Ifound really odd in parenting
was when, like my particularlymy eldest was tiny, like I knew
he was separate from me, I knewhe was a different person from
(37:38):
me, but it wasn't until he hewent to a language intensive
preschool when he was like twoand a half three years old and
he went on.
He took a bus to go and he wasso excited and I wasn't there
with him and I wasn'texperiencing it with him.
And that was the first time itreally hit me as like he is his
own person doing his own thing.
(37:59):
That is not about me and like,obviously you know, like, of
course, but there was, there wasthis emotional sense of like,
of a separation that had notbeen there before.
And I was reminded of that withAmenadiel, like you know, like
let me be the one who is mortalbecause there is this sense of
(38:23):
like.
I am my child, my child is me,I will take on what is difficult
so my child doesn't have tohave it.
My child doesn't have to do it.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
You know, interestingly in these two
episodes we get sort of spectrumof that you know from from a
mena deal which is if, if feudal, maybe also healthy.
Um to debbie gibson's characteroh, yes, where she's still so
(38:55):
wrapped up in them being thesame person she doesn't even
know who is who her son is whothe?
17 year old kid is yeah.
Who is her son?
Speaker 3 (39:03):
JJ yeah, and that's.
That's one of those thingswhere, like I, I remember when
that happened and I had thatlike that odd feeling and it was
uncomfortable and I rememberthinking like, oh, I can kind of
understand how, likeoverbearing and narcissistic
(39:24):
parents can can do that isbecause, like when that happened
, it was uncomfortable and I waslike I just need to embrace
this because this is what I'mdoing, this is what the point is
.
You know, and you know otherfolks who aren't as
introspective or are more, moreuncomfortable with discomfort
might be like Nope, they're me,I'm them, you know, but that's
(39:49):
yeah, it's uh.
What's also interesting is thatthat also kind of from the
other side of it.
You know Lucifer as the childis.
You know I've read that.
You know very tiny children havetrouble differentiating between
themselves and their caretakers.
(40:09):
You know when it makes sense,and so this like separation that
Lucifer and Dennis Haysbert'scharacter I struggle to call him
, god, right, I have have gonethrough is it's kind of like the
(40:32):
.
You know the realization thatthey're there.
They are separate.
You know the child'srealization they're separate,
which I suspect must be kind oftraumatic, depending on how it
happens and when it happens.
And then moving through, likeall of the stages of anger and
resentment and all of that, andthen the reminder again, but
(40:55):
that they.
There is a separation betweenthem, but they are connected.
When seeing a parent'svulnerability, just to overthink
it a lot, parents'vulnerability, just to overthink
it a lot.
By the way, part of the reasonwhy I struggle to call Dennis
Haysbert God is because God'spronouns are God, so I do not
(41:16):
like using he, him pronouns withGod.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Yeah, I'm with you.
I'm with you.
I actually I want to come backto something I was talking about
, though yes, I'm sorry, Iinterrupted you in them when
Chloe says that she has faith in.
Lucifer and the significance.
I mean, that is a sentence thatI might say to another, to a
friend, right?
And also, she's not just sayingit to another human being,
she's saying it to the devil.
(41:40):
And I think there's somethingreally fascinating and
interesting about saying to thedevil I have faith in you, in
particular, because what she'ssaying is I have faith that you
are capable of love.
That's what she's saying to thedevil, and the use of that word
faith, I don't think iscoincidental or accidental on
(42:04):
the part of our writers.
It may be on the part of ChloeDecker, but not on the part of
our writers.
Yeah, and I, I find that reallyfascinating and very satisfying
and I think it actually gave him.
I, I don't know.
I want to go back and rewatchthat scene now that I'm talking
about it, because it goes prettyquickly where he just he just
(42:25):
feels overwhelmed and and likehe's disappointing her, he's
letting her down and he knows itand he just, he just feels like
his it's just, he just feelsbroken.
I mean clearly, because in thenext scene his dad says I can't
fix you.
And he says you can't or youwon't, right and and like the
(42:47):
reaction is I don't need to be.
The reaction is not I don'tneed to be fixed.
He wants to be fixed.
He thinks that, he thinks he'sbroken.
So having her say that I don'tknow I.
There's something like deeplybeautiful to me about having
this human being who we'veestablished is one of the few
who can actually see him.
Yes, yeah, say it in that way.
(43:09):
Not just I love you, I havefaith in you.
I think that's reallysignificant and, like I, just if
y'all ever see it, like Joe LD,whoever wrote this, I saw it
and it's beautiful and thank you.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Yeah, I, I, you.
It made me realize that how,how similar maze, maze's story
and Lucifer's story are in thesetwo episodes.
Cause she's having the samereaction Like I, I.
There's something wrong with me.
I can't fix it.
You need to fix it.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
And and and and.
The connection is what'smissing?
Right, I'm broken.
She's saying I'm broken becauseI don't have a soul.
That's why I can't connect.
He's saying I'm broken becauseI'm his kid and I'm incapable of
love.
But both are saying, you'reright, Different versions of the
same thing.
Yeah, I'm incapable or I'munworthy.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
Yeah, yeah.
And what's interesting is thatthe reaction like Haysbert's
reaction in both cases is islike that's you know you, you
are you, and so when, like whenhe says I can't fix you, it's
because there's nothing to befixed and that's I don't know.
(44:31):
There's there, there issomething to like him saying you
wanted his kids to have freewill and you know part of what's
going on here is is like youknow there's nothing to be fixed
and you also need to to workthis out on your own.
You need to be an emotionallatchkey kid.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Well, you have to I can't fix you I.
He says I can't fix you,lucifer, only lucifer can fix
lucifer, because there's nothingwrong with lucifer we're both
back and forth muting our micbecause of the loudness in our
houses.
Maybe that's a sign from theuniverse that it's time for us
(45:10):
to say we've overthunk it enough.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
Do you have any?
Speaker 2 (45:13):
fluff you want to share.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
I do.
I've got one piece of fluffwhich is it's one of those like
it's a continuity issue inFamily Dinner.
At the end, lucifer takes offhis tie and he gets up and he
throws it on top of the platterof chicken.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
I thought that was his napkin.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
It was a tie, and I know because I went back cause I
was just like what the heck isthat?
And like it was gross to me outthat he put it on the platter
of chicken too, cause I'm likeand what?
And then the very next scene,like like it's, it's less than
five seconds later, the platteris moved further to the left and
the tie is on the table to theright of it, and I was just like
(45:57):
, oh, I wish I hadn't noticedthat I, yeah, I saw him through.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
I I read that as a napkin, but I did see him take
the tie off because he's likeI'm done with this and he like
starts taking the tie off.
Yeah, um, I don't know if thiscounts it's so loud here.
I don't know if this counts asfluff, but the scene when Dennis
Haysbert comes in with the tray, the breakfast tray, and
(46:23):
Lucifer sleeping on his tummy onthe couch, naked, and he sits
up and so we're just like gracedwith this, like chest and
collarbones and like that's mysexual orientation, that scene
with the chest and thecollarbones and the coffee and
(46:46):
the like, there's just one pieceof hair.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
Yes, and when he is like it's a little bit better
Like the noise he makes, yes.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
That's it.
That is my current sexualorientation.
It may change, but right nowthat's it.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
Can I just say, just overthinking it, he's like dad
and I'm like.
You're sleeping on the sofa inan open plan.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
And we know he has pajamas because we saw them when
he was playing like a game,like put on your pajamas, I'm
like why are you sleeping nakedwhen your dad's right there?
It's like 15 feet away.
I mean it was a nice funnyscene because, like I've seen
naked, if I had a nickel for allthis.
(47:38):
Yeah, that was very funny.
And also we know he ownspajamas.
We've seen him recently, yeahyeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
One other thing I do want to mention real quick is
ella trying to get back to hernormal self after everything's
happened.
I wish that she had we'd givenher a little bit more time in
these couple of episodes, but Ireally appreciated the
conversation that dan has withher and the fact that when he's
(48:10):
like he had all of us fooled andshe's like oh yeah, yeah, of
course that's right, cause youslept with him too, and like
she's like, yeah, dan, that'sthat's not helpful.
You know, she, she has a verydifferent experience and like,
honestly, I don't know how onegets over the ick factor of
(48:32):
knowing that you were intimatewith someone who was that evil.
But I like Dan's trying and Iappreciate it, I really
appreciate that he's trying.
So I just wanted to give alittle moment to that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
Yeah, yeah.
And the way that like, in fact,the way that Ella is like
talking about it, is like theydon't, her friends don't know
what to do or say you know, andshe's like oh, I know who did it
.
Just introduce me to all of thesuspects and whichever one I'm
most attracted to, that's theone that did it Like, yeah, I
don't blame Ella for saying orthinking or feeling that way and
also like I also don't blameher friends for, like, not
(49:11):
knowing what to say.
Speaker 3 (49:12):
Yeah, I also.
I appreciated where, likeChloe's, like Dan, go home, and
he's like, oh, I need to work.
And he's like you werekidnapped, you should stay home.
And then they're like, at leastElla's at home, oh, it's Ella.
And they're like we're notgoing to argue with you.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
Really, I have like five or six documents.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I reallythink we should call it.
I'm calling it.
Speaker 3 (49:39):
Okay, have we overthunk it enough?
We have overthunk it.
Oh my goodness, so muchoverthinking.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
Our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetechcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(50:09):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
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