August 27, 2026 • 50 mins
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Have you ever felt like math education needs to take a good long look at itself in the mirror and make some major changes before everything goes off the rails? Like one of those Hollywood interventions - but for math class?
Well today's guest, Juliana Tapper, is a math interventionist! She steps in to help students before they slip through the cracks.
Today they discuss:
- what a math intervention is and how it works
- the keys to a successful intervention
- small shifts teachers can try that really make a difference
The conversation also gets emotional when Juliana reads out some of her student “mathographies” (their personal math stories), showing how powerful it can be when students are able to voice their deepest feelings and fears around math.
Links mentioned:
- Coherence by Design article by TNTP about intervention tutoring
- Free download: "My Mathography" - print and try with your students!
About Juliana: (Website, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn)
Juliana Tapper is living proof that your worst subject can become your superpower. After healing her own early math trauma, she dedicated her life to ending the cycle of math trauma for other kids and to empowering teachers with strategies and tools that actually work for students who have been historically unsuccessful in math. She works with schools, districts, state departments of education, and juvenile justice systems to make math accessible for all. She is the bestselling author of Teaching 6-12 Math Intervention: A Practical Framework to Engage Students Who Struggle and the host of the K-12 Math Intervention Summit.
Contact us:
- Vanessa Vakharia: Instagram, TikTok, Email
- Math Therapy: Text the Podcast
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Episode Transcript
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Juliana Tapper (00:03):
it is important for teachers to share their own
mathographies.
I think especially elementaryteachers have maybe had more
emotional with math, a lot ofelementary teachers are like,
"Well, I don't wanna say that tomy kids." Say that to your kids.
Tell them your math history.
I start this activity by readingmy own and sharing my own math
anxiety, and immediately ithelps kids feel like,"Oh, this
(00:25):
is a safe place where I can alsoshare my math anxieties.
This is a safe space where I canalso share my math traumas." You
know, she's had somethingsimilar.
So if you have had some of thoseexperiences, share it with your
kids.
That's like the most powerfulhumanizing thing you can do with
your kids.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:42):
Hello, and welcome to another episode of
Math Therapy, guys.
I know I've been promising yousome top-tier guests, and let me
tell you, today I'm about todeliver.
Have you ever felt like mathclass legit needs an
intervention?
Like one of those dramatic moviescenes where everyone gathers
around and is like,"You cannotkeep doing this to yourself."
(01:03):
Well, today's guest, JulianaTapper, is an actual math
interventionist.
Like, she literally intervenesto make sure students don't fall
through the cracks in school.
And if you're like me, you'reprobably thinking,"Wait, what?
Why did this not exist when Iwas a student?" Well, it exists
now, and Juliana is here to talkto us about why a student might
(01:24):
need an intervention, how it canbe a successful intervention
instead of making things worse,and why it's crucial to find the
balance between filling in priorknowledge gaps while also
prioritizing what students arelearning right now at this exact
moment.
This convo honestly reallyopened my eyes to what it looks
like to actually supportstudents without making them
feel like they're at adisadvantage for simply needing
(01:47):
that help.
Oh, and you're gonna wanna havesome Kleenex nearby for this
one, because Juliana shares someof her students' actual math
stories.
Like, she reads out loud thewords they wrote, and it gets
pretty emotional.
As in, I cried, and you probablywill too.
Now, before we get into it,before we grab that Kleenex, let
me tell you, today is our lastTexas Instruments giveaway.
(02:10):
In case you missed it, a fewmonths ago, Texas Instruments
dropped their newest calculator,the TI-84 Evo, and people are
obsessed.
Like, that is an understatement.
The navigation on thiscalculator is a literal dream,
and because of, like, itsicon-based home screen, there's
no more endless scrolling tofind things, and it charges with
a USB-C cable like a normalphone, and it comes in seven
(02:31):
stunning colors and, like, it'sjust a total game changer.
Well, we're giving one final OhMy Math box away this episode,
which includes the calculator, afour-year online calculator
license, a getting startedguide, a calendar, and the
much-coveted plushie keychain ina mystery color.
Now, the response to the firstthree giveaways was insane, so
(02:53):
this time we're doing somethingsneaky, and it's kind of giving
treasure hunt.
At some point during thisepisode, I'm going to talk about
a band that I'm not a huge fanof.
It may shock you.
Please don't cancel me.
But do text us the name of thatband by hitting the link in your
show notes that says,"Send us atext." That is how you enter the
giveaway, by texting us the nameof the band.
(03:14):
That's it.
You're entered.
Okay, back to you grabbing yourKleenex, because it is time for
my conversation with JulianaTapper.
Wait, is it Juliana?
Yeah, right?
Juliana Tapper (03:26):
Aw-nah, yep.
I like to say Juliana like"iguana"
Vanessa Vakharia (03:29):
There we go.
Juliana Like Iguana, welcome tothe podcast.
Juliana Tapper (03:34):
Thanks for having me.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:35):
The coolest thing is that you call yourself
a math interventionist.
But it's not like you callyourself that, that is your job,
correct?
Like, that's a job.
Juliana Tapper (03:42):
yeah.
I feel like that is my job
Vanessa Vakharia (03:45):
Well, I say that because I feel like this is
a new thing.
Like, I know when I was inschool, there was no such thing
as a math interventionist.
I know it's not new new, like itstarted yesterday.
I'm sure a lot of our listenersare like,"Yeah, that's a thing."
I'm sure some of our listeners,especially those who are not
teachers themselves, are like,"I'm sorry, they have math
interventionists now?
(04:05):
I need a math intervention."Many people need a math
intervention.
So I actually wanna start byasking, tell us what it i- what
is a math interventionist?
Like, what is this job?
Juliana Tapper (04:14):
Yeah.
so I think there's, like, thetraditional math interventionist
role in schools, and then mine'ssort of like, since I work with
schools on, like, a contractbasis, like, they bring me in
for a certain number of days,mine's a little different.
So I think, like, in thetraditional sense, I hear the
term math interventionist a lotmore at the elementary level,
where it's, a teacher that isnot the core teacher that pulls
(04:39):
kids out of their coreclassrooms for a certain amount
of time each day, a couple timesa week, one time a week, where
they do math, you know,separately from their core
class.
that's traditionally how I seeit being used in elementary.
And in secondary, I was a highschool math intervention
(04:59):
teacher, so I guess I could havebeen a secondary math
interventionist, where I had aset-aside class.
My kids had two periods of math.
They had algebra one, and thenthey also had me for math
intervention.
And so again, it's like thatset-aside time for intervention
support.
Now in my roles with schools anddistricts, I will come in for a
(05:22):
certain amount of days, andmaybe we'll do professional
development.
Maybe we'll do some coaching,and help them just structure,
like, If you have the ability tohave a teacher that you have an
interventionist, how can we bestuse that role?
And so how can I help with,like, sort of the structural
support of how do we structurethat intervention period, and
(05:43):
also how do we structure thecore class to more effectively
intervene for the students whoare struggling in the core grade
level class?
Vanessa Vakharia (05:53):
Okay, so let me get this straight.
So let's say you have a gradesix classroom, right?
We've got the grade sixclassroom, a teacher's up there,
they're teaching the math, butthen we have this
interventionist that is going topull kids out of that classroom
Juliana Tapper (06:05):
I think at the secondary level in 6 through 12,
I think it's much less common tohave someone pull out.
So at the K-5 level, it's morecommon to have an
interventionist be pulling agroup of kids out.
the secondary level, I thinkit's much more common that it
would be an additional period,and that teacher would be an ad-
(06:25):
an additional math period inthat kid's day.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:29):
Okay, I get it.
So there are an additionalperiod in that kid's day to help
them with what they're learningin their core classroom.
Juliana Tapper (06:35):
That's the big question about math intervention
is what do we do in thatadditional time?
What do we do?
When I pull these kids out, whatdo I do?
Do I go back four grade levelsand teach them what they were
supposed to learn but didn'tlearn?
Or do I, what you just said, doI support them with what they're
doing in their core class?
Like, that is, it's the WildWild West in intervention, and
(06:57):
people are just like,"I don'tknow.
Try whatever you want."
Vanessa Vakharia (07:01):
So, okay, but we wanna know what you think.
Like, what, what...
Like, I feel like you obviouslyhave some opinions judging by
how wide your eyes are opening.
Okay.
Juliana Tapper (07:10):
I have so many opinions.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:12):
Okay, let's start hearing them.
Let's hear them.
Juliana Tapper (07:14):
I have been the teacher that teaches There's
like, there's two models ofintervention.
There's just-in-caseintervention and just-in-time
intervention.
Just-in-case is fully focused onre-teaching what they probably,
you know, didn't learn in priorgrades.
I like to think of it as like astreet with potholes, and every
(07:35):
pothole is something that a kidmissed in prior grade levels.
So our job as a just-in-case orintervention teacher is to go
through, like filling all thepotholes, just all this so that
they have a smooth road to gradelevel.
I like to think aboutjust-in-time intervention like a
staircase, where we're actuallygonna think of a staircase, and
we're gonna start our planningat the top step of that
(07:58):
staircase, and that's gonna bethe grade level content that
they're doing in their coreclass.
But I know that my students havesome gaps, some not yet's, that
they haven't yet mastered.
So I have to ask myself, to besuccessful at that grade level
content, what's maybe onescaffold or what's one kind of
s- prerequisite skill or contentthat they need in order to be
(08:20):
successful?
And we just keep going down thestaircase and making this
staircase of content.
So those are kind of the twointervention models.
So some interventionists aregonna pull groups or have this
additional period, and they'regonna completely use prior grade
level materials.
It might be a fifth grade andthey're pulling kindergarten,
first grade, second gradematerials, and they are fill-
(08:41):
trying to fill all those gaps,starting from the very lowest
gap to the gap closest to gradelevel.
A just-in-time or a just-in-timeintervention teacher is gonna
say,"Hey, core teacher, what areyou teaching in the core, in the
core content?" You know, in abest case scenario, it would be,
"What are you teaching in liketwo weeks?""Oh, in two weeks
(09:01):
you're teaching equations withvariables on both sides.
Okay.
That means this week in myintervention class, in my
intervention pullout, I need tofocus on combining like terms,
distributive property, one-stepequations, two-step, multi-step
equations." And so all of thatis technically prior grade level
content, but it is specificallyin support of what they're doing
(09:23):
in the core class.
And so it's like a very personalthing for me because I have been
asked to do both.
Like, I have done both.
In some of I've worked at threedifferent high schools as a math
intervention teacher, and atsome schools they asked me to do
just in case.
And at one school they asked meto do just in time.
And when I saw the growth of mykids from a just in time
approach to intervention, I waslike,"This is what the world
(09:46):
needs to hear."
Vanessa Vakharia (09:48):
So okay, this is reminding me, like I tutor,
that's my thing, And I run atutoring studio, and one of the
things I've always been so trueto, and this is like really
interesting to hear'cause I'mlike, oh my God, this is, this
is language I never would'veused.
But whenever parents are like,"Okay, my kid is so behind,"
this and that, they need tocatch up, I'm always like,"Cool.
(10:10):
We're going to catch them up,but we're going to catch them up
by doing what they're currentlydoing in class and filling in
whatever they need." We're notgonna be like,"Oh, they missed
stuff from, you know, like fouryears ago, and we're just gonna
teach it out of nowhere,"because it's completely
irrelevant to them.
So would I be calling that justin time?
Juliana Tapper (10:31):
Yes
Vanessa Vakharia (10:31):
So it's just in time because I'm teaching it
in time for what they need itfor.
Okay, oh my God.
And I do feel like obviouslyyou're the expert here, but I've
always intuitively done that.
That's what our tutors do.
That's what our whole service isbecause I'm like, first of all,
for it to be relevant for kids,for them to actually care, it's
like they're gonna care more ifthey're doing it in the
classroom as opposed to learningthis like seemingly disconnected
(10:52):
content, right?
Juliana Tapper (10:53):
100%.
And now there's actually, uh,there's a great research article
that you should read that we canmaybe link in the show notes
from TNTP.
They released this, don't It'snot really a study, but it's, a
paper that they released calledCoherence by Design.
And in it they talk about howdoes core instruction fit with
intervention time, fit withtutoring.
(11:14):
They actually mention tutoringas like, it's like a three-prong
approach to what moves kidsforward the most.
And they give the example of itneeds to be just in time.
It needs to be that the kids seethe point of what they're doing
in intervention, what they'redoing in tutoring, is having
something to do with theirsuccess in the core class.
(11:34):
Because at the end of the day,if they don't pass the core
class, if they're not seeingmovement in the core class,
they're gonna lose motivation
Vanessa Vakharia (11:43):
Okay, definitely we will link to that
in the show notes, and I wannaread that.
Juliana Tapper (11:46):
It's a great paper.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:47):
And, like, I think that is such a key thing
that you're touching on is thisidea of motivation, right?
Like, if we think about it, justthinking about intervention as a
whole, when do we haveinterventions?
Like, we have interventions,like, in movies with our
friends, right?
Like, it's like we need to planan intervention because
so-and-so has gone off the deepend or whatever.
Like, we have an interventionwhen there's a problem.
(12:08):
We're not just having anintervention, like, because we
feel like it.
So already, I'm assuming thekids who are being, who are part
of the intervention probablyaren't feeling so hot, right?
They're probably like,"Hmm,there's an issue, which is why I
either have this extra period orwhy, you know, this, you know,
Miss Tapper is taking me out ofclass right now," right?
Like, there's an issue.
So I'm imagining that with thesekids, they are already lacking
(12:30):
motivation and that they aren'tfeeling so great about their
math ability.
Can you tell us more about that?
Juliana Tapper (12:36):
Yes, that is exactly why I love your book and
I love your work so much,because it has to be a part of
the intervention conversation.
Like, we are essentially takingkids, like the kids know they,
you know, aren't, quote, good atmath.
The kids know that they arebeing pulled out in a special
(12:57):
class.
And I've had many conversationswith teachers,"Oh, should we
call it something else?" Like,what if we called our
intervention class likeaccelerated math?
You know, like what if we calledit advanced math or something?
But the thing is, when the kidsget in there and they see who
else is in here, they're gonnabe
Vanessa Vakharia (13:14):
Oh my God
Juliana Tapper (13:15):
"This is not...
Like, I'm in here with everyonewho has also been failing math
for many years."
Vanessa Vakharia (13:22):
Wait, hold on.
I'm actually dying thinkingabout rebrand, this idea of like
let's rebrand it, because Iactually love that idea, right?
Like, I love the idea of beinglike let's call it something
fun, but I think it's so funnythat like why would you go to
like let's call it somethingthat it clearly is not.
That's like gaslighting, no?
Juliana Tapper (13:39):
I have a hard time with it.
Like, on, on some levels I'mlike,"Oh, we should call it
advanced math," and just belike,"We're gonna adopt this
growth mindset, and hey, we areall advanced mathematicians in
here." Like, there is some partof that that I do really love,
Vanessa Vakharia (13:51):
Hmm
Juliana Tapper (13:52):
realities, at least thinking about it at h-
with high school kids who, Imean, I taught ninth grade, 10th
grade, 11th grade students whostill had not passed algebra
one.
And when we're talking aboutthat, they look around and they
know who's been with them onthis struggle train all through
school math.
(14:12):
And so maybe it would workbetter in, like, a K-5 setting.
I just, I don't personally seeit working well for high school
Vanessa Vakharia (14:20):
like, or like let's call it something, I
actually am with you that likemath intervention sounds bad.
Like, do you know what I mean?
Like, that does n- does notsound good.
It's like why don't we c- callit something like more chill,
like what, like Math Slay.
I don't know, like somethingmore like,
Juliana Tapper (14:36):
Most schools are calling it math lab
Vanessa Vakharia (14:41):
Oh, I actually don't hate, I don't hate that.
Juliana Tapper (14:43):
lab.
And so
Vanessa Vakharia (14:44):
I like that
Juliana Tapper (14:45):
extra lab time to do more math.
And I think, so, like, the mostimportant thing that you can do
as an interventionist, as anintervention teacher, is to help
kids have a positive experiencein a math class.
And it's like, like I have aframework in my book, the Break
It Math Intervention framework,and the B stands for build
(15:05):
community, because the rest ofthe framework is gonna crumble
if you don't take time to buildthat community, and that's
exactly what your whole book isabout.
Like, it's almost like yourwhole book is just like my first
step.
And so I feel like every teacherwho reads my book needs to read
your book because that's how youactually build the community and
help heal math trauma, helpexpose math anxiety.
(15:29):
All of that is part of thecommunity that students who have
historically been unsuccessfulin math need.
Like, they need to recreate whatit means to be in math class,
and we're asking them to be in,for a lot of secondary kids, and
even K-5 that get pulled out,we're asking them to do math
twice a day.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:49):
Hmm.
Juliana Tapper (15:50):
A lot, and this is a subject that they have
trauma around.
This is a subject they haveanxiety around.
And we're saying,"Oh, great.
Let's just make you do that twotimes a day."
Vanessa Vakharia (16:00):
So, what, okay, this is a really, really
interesting point, right?
And I think this is something wereally need to consider, because
from our perspective, we'relike,"We're providing you extra
support," right?
Which is, like, so nice we'redoing this thing.
But from their perspective,they're like,"Oh, great, so now
I've gotta do this thing I hatetwice a day instead of just
once.
Like, I've gotta do more of it."So in addition to teaching
(16:21):
content, which is obviously,like, the fo- you know, the
primary focus of these mathlabs, I actually really love
calling it that, it is to, is toteach them content and
competencies with their skills.
But as you said, there's thiswhole other piece, right?
And I always say, like, youknow, you can have the best
content and pedagogy in theworld, but if a student is doing
the emotional equivalent ofhyperventilating into a paper
(16:43):
bag, they're not getting it.
So, like, now you have them inthere for that second time of
the You have them.
What is the mindset piece?
Like, how do you start workingon their identity around
mathematics so that they canabsorb this new content?
Juliana Tapper (16:57):
We do all of the activities from your book.
That class, that class is wherewe do all the activities from
your book.
Spread them out over the year.
You know, like whatever it needsto be so that these students can
build that positive mathidentity in that classroom.
Even if you don't get to a tonof content, I think, and it
(17:18):
really depends.
Like I said, intervention is theWild Wild West.
What I keep seeing a lot of inmiddle schools is they'll have
intervention, but it's, for 30minutes once a week.
I don't know what administratorthink that that is going to
change test scores.
And so whenever a teacher comesto me and they say,"I have
intervention, but it's 30minutes once or twice a week,"
(17:39):
and I've only seen this atmiddle schools, but I've seen
this at a number of middleschools now, I say,"A, you need
to be real with youradministrator that this is not
gonna move test scores forward.
And B, my only goal for thatclass is to help kids have a
positive math experience." Iwould do that by exploring their
math identities, exploring theirmath trauma, having them share
(18:00):
about their math anxieties.
And I love doing, like, thesecond step on my framework, is
routines that boost confidence.
We need to do things like whichone doesn't belong, same and
different, notice and wonder.
I would say in that interventiontime, those structures need to
be, like, the warm-ups everysingle day.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:18):
So I'm hearing a couple of things here, and I
wanna make sure we're clear.
Like, you know, we kinda startedthis conversation by talking
about just-in-time andjust-in-case intervention, and
to me, that seemed a bit morecontent-focused, right?
Like, what content are weteaching them at what times?
Oh, we wanna be teaching themcontent that's relevant to what
they're currently doing in theclassroom.
But now that we've moved along alittle bit, I hear you kinda
(18:40):
being like, content might noteven be the most important thing
you're doing in intervention.
Am I getting that right?
Juliana Tapper (18:45):
I think it depends on how much time you
have for the intervention,
Vanessa Vakharia (18:49):
Right.
Juliana Tapper (18:50):
with them every day, right, like in a middle
school situation or a highschool situation where they have
you for a full additionalperiod, you see them every day
just as much as they see theircore teacher.
In that, I, I think it is reallyimportant that we are content
focused, that that is thepriority.
But in these random, like, I seeyou once or twice a week for
(19:13):
minutes, it feels moreunrealistic to me that we're
gonna get to a ton of meaningfulcontent in that timeframe.
And I used to also think that,oh, well, okay, well,
just-in-time intervention, Ihave to be on this trajectory
towards grade level content,but, know, my students in
algebra one, I'm gonna get themto solving quadratics.
(19:35):
I'm gonna get them to using thequadratic formula.
We are gonna get there.
And the reality is also mystudents struggle with
foundational skills likemultiplication, adding and
subtracting negative numbers.
So a lot of times secondaryteachers especially will say,
"Well, I can't teach quadraticfunctions because my kids can't
multiply." And so withjust-in-time intervention, that
(19:55):
feels really uncomfortable forthose teachers because they're
like,"You're telling me I haveto be on this trajectory towards
quadratic functions, but mystudents are struggling with
foundational skills." And soit's not that with a
just-in-time approach we can'tbring in foundational skills,
it's more like could we donumber talks?
Could we do number strings?
Could we do ways that practicethose foundational facts in a
(20:17):
way that's, building theirnumber sense as opposed to
memorization and a focus onspeed?
And can we do those forwarm-ups?
Can we do, can we do that once amonth or twice a month can we
focus on some number sense, butthen the rest of the time we're
focused on that trajectorytowards grade level content?
Does that help?
Vanessa Vakharia (20:39):
It does, it does.
It's just like it feels sooverwhelming in a way, right?
Like,'cause I think what you're,like what It, it almost like
points to the root of theproblem for all of us that we're
struggling with, which is liketime, right?
And it's like, how do youprioritize that time?
Like, what's the most importantthing to do?
What's gonna move the dial themost?
And like, I think while it's, itsounds like there's no one
answer, it obviously is casedependent and depends how often
(21:00):
you have these students, itdepends on the student.
Like, fine, let's not focus onexactly what you should be doing
with the time, but I do wannatalk about something that you've
brought up quite a few times,which is that mindset is
sometimes the most importantthing, right?
It's like if you have no time,focus on mindset.
If you have more time, great,focus on content and mindset.
But never, never once duringthis conversation are you like,
(21:21):
"Yeah, you know what?
Just scrap all You should focuson content is the number one
thing." I'm not hearing you saythat, and that's what I'd love
to talk about, because I thinkwe have this misconception that,
mindset work, relationship withmath, the emotional component of
learning, that's the thing to doif you happen to have extra time
at the end.
And I'm always like, it's themost important thing you need to
do, because if you don't havethat, like if a student is shut
(21:43):
down, if they're in one of thetrauma responses and they're
just like,"Nope, I can't do it,"no matter what content or
pedagogy or curriculum you have,they're never gonna get that.
So I hear you saying that, and Iwould love to hear maybe one of
like i, I think you and I havetalked about how we both love
doing that mathography activity.
I would love to hear maybe howyou interweave math
(22:04):
therapy-esque work into yourintervention, and what things
actually move the dial.
I'm always like preaching aboutwhy I think it's so important,
but I would love to hear fromyou why you're like,"No, it's
important because..."
Juliana Tapper (22:16):
It is so important.
Like, I just laughed so hardwhen I opened your book, and I
had already submitted my book tomy publisher, and I opened your
book, and I see mathography, youknow, very early on in your
book.
And I'm like,"That's hilarious,"because it's also, you know,
like in chapter three of mybook.
And of, of course, there, it's alittle different take on it.
(22:37):
I love to do a mathography aslike the very first, like,
homework assignment.
Like, that is the first thingthat I'm gonna give my kids.
It is the first thing I gave mykids.
I like to spend time the firstweek doing a couple of
activities.
Like, I have, like, fouractivities that I recommend,
teachers always start with.
So mathography, I love itbecause there is some research
(23:00):
around when students write theirmath anxieties, they're actually
freeing more working memory intheir brains.
And like you said, if they're inone of those trauma responses,
the ability to recall and retainand problem-solve is severely
diminished.
Like, I think of building thiskind of community that you
outline in your book, that Ioutline in my book, that it's a
(23:22):
biologic prerequisite tolearning.
Like,
Vanessa Vakharia (23:24):
Hmm.
I love that
Juliana Tapper (23:26):
biologic prerequisite to They will not
learn.
Like, we're always like,"Whycan't they remember their math
facts?
Why can't they remember theirmultiplication tables?" Well, if
their brain is in a fear statewhile we're trying to teach them
their multiplication tables, th-that's why they can't remember
it, you know?
Like, their ability to recalland retain is diminished.
And so with the mathography,they're able to share that.
(23:47):
They're able to get it off theirchest.
They're able to get it out oftheir brain so that more working
memory is freed up, and then youas the teacher can respond to
their mathography and they feelseen.
They feel,"Oh, my teacher seesmy greatest anxieties about this
class, and she validated meanyways."
Vanessa Vakharia (24:04):
Okay, and I wanna just back up for those of
you listening who are like,"Whatthe fuck is a mathography?" A
mathography is where you writeyour math story.
The general idea is you're like,it's like a biography, but a
mathography.
Tell me your math story, right?
So, like, what is it?
What's the vibe?
And from that, students startwriting, right?
They start writing down,"Well,this thing happened, that thing
happened, I felt like that." Itoften unleashes it from within,
(24:26):
where they haven't even talkedabout it or thought about it.
It also gives us the opportunityas educators to see where a
student's math trauma lies,right?
They can't always articulate it,but we can see it through story.
So here's what I'm thinkingright now, because I know you
have some other things you do.
We're gonna get to those laterbriefly.
I wanna focus on themathography, because for me too,
it is one of the firstactivities in my book.
(24:47):
It- You'll even see, if you pickup my book, I ask you to write
your own, because I am withJuliana.
There's nothing more powerfulthan telling your math story.
And for you guys who know me,you know that when somebody says
to me,"I'm not a math person,"or,"I hate math," my first
response is always, what do Itell you guys to say?
I tell you guys to say,"Huh,interesting.
Do you, did you have, like, anegative experience with math?
(25:09):
Like, what, tell me about it."And that is essentially what
you're doing with themathography, and what comes out
is always way more valuable thanwhatever you wanted to say to
them in the first place, right?
We wanna hear from the person infront of us.
So Juliana has a fewmathographies in front of her,
and I would love for you to,like, share one or two with us.
Juliana Tapper (25:29):
Yes.
So in case anyone's watching, Iprinted two actual student
mathographies that, I wassupporting a school for their
summer school work and theirremedial Algebra 1 summer
course.
And so these were all kids thathad just failed Algebra 1 as a
ninth grader, and their recoveryteacher asked them to write
their mathographies'cause wewere working together.
(25:50):
And so the student said, so I'mjust gonna read these.
"Hated all my math teachers.
Never understand the work.
Sucked at math sincekindergarten.
My highest grade in math for thepast years has been a 26%.
Already gave up on math.
Never going to figure it out.
Don't expect to figure outanything new, only here so I can
graduate on time.
(26:10):
Don't truly think I'm going topass or learn anything.
I'm a lost cause.
If I were a teacher, I'd give upon me."
Vanessa Vakharia (26:17):
Oh my God, that actually makes me so
emotional like, what do you dowhen you read something like
that?
Juliana Tapper (26:25):
Right
Vanessa Vakharia (26:27):
Yeah.
That's like, oh my God, like,and I think it's interesting too
'cause it's like so many of uswould be observing that student
being like,"Ugh, they're sounmotivated," you know,
whatever.
And it's like, then you hearthis and you're like,"Well,
fuck.
I would be really unmotivatedtoo, like, that's not even the
right word to be using here.
Juliana Tapper (26:46):
And I think you hit on it.
Like, I think from that, thatspecific matho- right?
Every mathography is different.
From that specific mathography,I think a huge part of that that
I gained from that kid's storyis motivation.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:02):
Well, and also, like, I would be listening
to that, and I'd be like,"Oh myGod," like, that last line, if I
was my teacher, I would've givenup on him, too," like, I think
I'd read that and be like,"I amnot gonna be the next teacher
that gives up on this kid." Youknow?
Like, it's like, first of all,as an educator, I feel like it
mo- it like, you know, it sparkssomething in you.
(27:23):
But also, like, now you have anapproach with him that is gonna
be so different
Juliana Tapper (27:28):
I also wanted to say, I think maybe yes do right
now would be we can both gothrough and say if, if that were
to be, you know, this is themathography that your kid turned
into you as your first homeworkassignment, what are you gonna
write on their sheet here?
Like, what would your feedbackbe?
I could say what my feedbackwould be, and then we can move
on to the next one and do itagain.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:48):
I love this activity.
Okay, wait, I wanna hear yoursfir- you go first.
So wait, wait, this is actuallya good que- this is a good
question, is, is this how youassign it?
You assign it, they do theirthing, and then you're gonna
write feedback on there?
Are you gonna arrange a meetingwith them, or are you just gonna
write them feedback?
Juliana Tapper (28:04):
Me personally, class with, w- I mean, my
biggest class one year was,like, 42 kids,
Vanessa Vakharia (28:10):
Got it
Juliana Tapper (28:11):
I'm gonna write the feedback, and then I make
sure to hand it back to them thevery next day so they
immediately can read myfeedback.
So on here, I would say, am sosorry you've had such a negative
experience with math." like, asI I'm just, like, trying to look
back down to this.
Like,"I'm, I'm so sorry you'vehad a negative experience with
(28:31):
math.
I absolutely want to change thisfor you.
I believe that you can do mathin this class, and I'm gonna do
everything I can to help you getthere.
Let me know how I can help you."I would I think that's where I
would go with it.
What would your response be tothis kid?
Vanessa Vakharia (28:46):
Okay.
Well, I just cried, so I guess,like, a bit emotional.
I guess I would be like, yeah, Ithink I would write something
like,"Oh my God." I think I'd belike,"OMG.
I'm so sorry that this has beenthe experience you've had.
It's totally not your fault.
This isn't about you." A- Ithink for me, and I know you
actually have something similar,I'd be like,"I failed grade 11
(29:09):
math twice.
I can totally relate, and I feltthe same way, and I felt like
all my teachers hated me, too.
I believe in you, and I knowthat you can have a better
experience with math, and Ican't wait to figure out how
we're gonna make that happentogether." And I think, I mean,
obviously, it depends.
I feel like with this one, Imean, if I had a pile of 40 of
these, it would be different,but you know, some of them are
different than others.
(29:29):
This, to me, seems, like, sosevere.
I think I'd be like,"Let's havea one-on-one chat." I think I'd,
like, wanna talk to this kid.
Now, again, we only have so muchtime, and again, if you have a
pile of 40 similar ones, that'sgonna change the tone.
But if I have, like, 20 thatare, like, you know, a little
more chill, and then I had thisone, I might be like, I need to,
(29:49):
like, look this kid in the eyeand be like,"Dude, like, we've
got this.
Juliana Tapper (29:54):
Yes.
I will say from experience,having done this exact activity
with my kids year after year,you know, it wasn't necessarily
in my class of 42, but in myintervention classes of 20, 25,
it was like 20, 25 of
Vanessa Vakharia (30:08):
Yeah.
Of these, yeah.
Juliana Tapper (30:09):
You know, we're talking about 9th grade, 10th
grade that have not passed amath class since passing math
class became a thing when theystarted, middle school, and so
it's lot of baggage.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:25):
So what happens next?
Like, you actually had thisstudent, right?
This is your student.
Juliana Tapper (30:29):
This was the teacher, like I was supporting a
teacher in her recovery classfor the summer.
So we read these together.
You know, I met with her aftershe gave this assignment, and we
read them together.
She was gonna write thefeedback, hand them back to the
kids.
And I think an interesting thingthat came out of this one is
this kid remembered, hespecifically wrote,"my highest
(30:52):
grade has been a 26%." That isinsanely specific, that a kid
would be so aware of theirpercentage in a math class.
Like, there's something there tounpack grades impact motivation,
how grades impact how kids feelabout math, you know, all of
(31:13):
that.
And so I think that's like a, akind of another side
conversation.
Also, it is important forteachers to share their own
mathographies.
I think especially elementaryteachers have maybe had more
emotional with math, and somet-a lot of elementary teachers are
like,"Well, I don't wanna saythat to my kids." Say that to
your kids.
Tell them your math history.
(31:35):
I start this activity by readingmy own and sharing my own math
anxiety, and immediately ithelps kids feel like,"Oh, this
is a safe place where I can alsoshare my math anxieties.
This is a safe space where I canalso share my math traumas." You
know, she's had somethingsimilar.
So if you have had some of thoseexperiences, share it with your
kids.
That's like the most powerfulhumanizing thing you can do with
(31:56):
your kids.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:57):
I totally agree, and I think like
especially in math class whereso many of us now are trying to
be like,"We need to let them,you know, we want them to make
mistakes.
We want them to da, da, da," youhave to remember kids are coming
into your classroom with ahistory of math class that has
told them the opposite.
They have been told theopposite.
You shouldn't be vulnerable.
You should always be right.
You shouldn't ask questions.
You should always know the rightanswer.
(32:18):
You're gonna get in trouble ifyou know the right answer.
So we are, like Juliana said, weare trying to provide them with
new math experiences that changethe way they feel, right?
That are literally rewiringtheir reaction to math class.
The best way to do that, it, itis through not just saying to
them,"Don't worry, mistakes areokay," but by sharing a story
(32:39):
from your past about yourselfthat illustrates that you truly
believe in that philosophy,right?
Like, so I think that is really,really important, and I think
this is I really love thisexercise of like, where do we go
from here?
They've- you've assigned theassignment.
They've written the mathography.
You've given the feedback.
Let's do one more, because Iwanna do this.
I, I, I would love to engage inanother like let's read what
(33:01):
they say, let's see what both ofour feedback would be, and then
I want to talk about like whatthen happens.
Juliana Tapper (33:07):
Yes, let's do it.
Okay, here's number two.
"I really don't rememberanything from kindergarten.
I actually can't rememberanything from any grade, so I'm
kinda cooked, but I really wantto change my future." It's like
you know this was writtenfreshly.
but that's an importantsentence.
"But I really want to change myfuture.
I struggle with school ingeneral, so I feel like I might
(33:30):
fail summer school as well, andthis feels like a waste of time
for you to teach me."
Vanessa Vakharia (33:35):
It's so crazy that in both of these, like, the
student is so- is, like, lookingout for the teacher.
Like, do you know what I mean?
Like, it's- it shows such adegree of empathy.
This is making me emotional toonow.
I mean, like, I'm just beinglike, this, this kid is, like,
taking this from their ownshitty feeling to be like,"And
I'm so sorry," right?
Like, which again, really to mehighlights the dynamic, like,
(33:59):
the weird power dynamic we'veset up in classrooms since, you
know, the beginning of time,where, like, these students are
so, like, subservient to us,and, like, don't Like, I get
that we're in- you know, we arethe adult in the room.
But I think there's a couplethings.
I think this one, th- whatstands out as a stark difference
is this one gives me a littlebit of hope.
The student is like,"I wannachange my future." Like, they
(34:20):
don't know how, and, like, theyfeel kind of bad that you're
taking the lead, but there's alittle bit of like,"I want to
make a difference," whereas thef- the one we read before this
was just, like, end of the roaddefeat.
Like, it was like there wasn'teven a hope in hell.
So I think with this one, Ithink I would probably write
something like"it totally sucksto feel like you're starting so
(34:40):
behind, but let me just, like,assure you you're not too far
behind." Like, again, I wouldpr- I would probably always be
like,"I failed grade 11 mathtwice," like, you know what I
mean?
"There's always a way.
I'm so excited that, like, youwanna change your future,
because I'm the perfect personto help you do that." And I
think I'd be like,"This, youknow, challenge accepted.
Teaching, you know, teaching youand, like, helping you change
(35:02):
your relationship with math isnot a burden.
It's, like, such an honor to me,and I can't wait to, like,
embark on this journeytogether."
Juliana Tapper (35:07):
Yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (35:08):
I like what you said in that last one where
you were like,"Let me know how Ican help you." I feel like a
really important conversation isbeing like,"I'm really open to
working on this together.
Like, I can't wait to hear whathelps and what doesn't," right?
Like,"I wanna, like, you know, Iwanna work together.
Like, I- this isn't just gonnabe a top-down approach." Okay,
what would you say?
What would you say?
Juliana Tapper (35:28):
I, I think similarly with this one, like,
as I look back at it, I justthink I would affirm, like,
thank you for sharing that ithas been a struggle.
I'm gonna do everything I can tomake this as painless as
possible for you to be able topass summer school and move on
to change your future.
You know, I want to help youachieve your dreams.
(35:50):
I think,'cause I agree with you,this one does have more hope,
and I think it's reallyinteresting, like, both of these
students talked about,"I'm onlyhere so I can graduate on time,
and I really want to change myfuture." And they see that math
is the connection point forthat.
They see that math isresponsible for helping them
(36:14):
graduate on time, that math isresponsible for helping them
change their future.
And I think sometimes as mathteachers, we don't realize the
power that we have as mathteachers.
Like, math is, you know, quote,the gatekeeper subject.
These kids clearly know it.
You know, without even beingtold about gatekeeping they know
that math is the gatekeepersubject.
(36:34):
They know they have to pass thisclass to be able to graduate, to
be able to change their future.
And I think sometimes when wethink about, as math teachers,
and specifically if we're a mathteacher who loves math and has
always loved math, we tend tothink about, well, I want my
kids to be motivated by thebeauty of math, by how cool
numbers come together, byproblem-solving.
(36:55):
But if we look at these kids'mathographies, their motivation
is passing the class andchanging their future.
And I think as teachers, wekinda need to be aware of what
our personal motivations aboutlearning math might be, may not
be the same motivations that ourkids have, and we gotta, we
gotta play in both lanes'causewe have to speak to their
(37:16):
motivations if we wanna bringthem up on this road.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:20):
Ugh, that is so powerful, and actually it
makes me think of, you know,whenever w- like, you know how
we, there's such a strong focuson being like,"We need real life
math and relevant math," and I'malways like, things being
relevant have nothing to do withtheir concreteness on the
physical plane, right?
Like, things, for something tobe relevant to a student, it has
to mean something to them rightnow, and guess what means
(37:41):
something to these studentsright now?
Passing your class.
I also think there's a reallyinteresting tie there of like
passing your class being amotivation is a really good
gateway.
If you're like,"Ugh, like I wantthem to care about more than
that," first of all, like toobad.
Work, work with what you've got.
But also that idea of passingyour class as a motivation,
(38:01):
right?
Busting through a gatekeeper isso empowering.
Once they see they can do that,that leads to a whole other
conversation about hopes anddreams and resilience and
getting places and what they'reactually capable of.
So like capitalize on that, andlike honestly, not everybody has
to be into the beauty and wonderof math.
People talk about this in musicall the time.
Like, they're like,"But jazz,it's so fucking cool," and like
(38:24):
this and that, and I'm like,"Guys, I don't know what to
fucking tell you.
I don't like jazz.
I don't appreciate it.
I'm sure it's so beautiful.
Like, I get it, like blah, blah,blah, like scatty, scatty,
whatever they're doing, like thekey changes.
Like, it doesn't speak to me.
I don't find it beautiful.
I don't find it exciting." Justlike I think The Beatles are one
of the most overrated bands ofall time.
David is rolling his eyes, and Isaid it.
(38:45):
I like them, guys, just so youknow.
They're, I like them.
I appreciate what they've donefor pop culture.
I don't wanna sit around andlisten to them.
I just don't.
I don't love The Beatles, okay?
Okay, Sorry.
Juliana Tapper (38:57):
Confession on the Math Therapy pod.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:59):
But the point is, right, like I think what
you're saying is so apt.
It's like there are many inroadsinto helping a student build a
better relationship with math.
Yes, the wonder and beauty ofmathematics is one of those
inroads.
Tapping into their personalmotivation though is another
one, and probably a moreimmediate one, depending on what
their motivation is, right?
(39:20):
So like I really like that youbrought that up.
Okay, so let's now, I mean, Icould go on and on because I
love, this is actually such afun game.
But once we're done here, sothey have, you've assigned the
mathography.
They've written out their thing.
You've provided feedback.
What happens now from yourperspective in terms of using
this information to help themlearn math?
Juliana Tapper (39:43):
Now you have to actually practice what you
preach.
Now you have to get up there andyou can't just do a mathography,
make these kind comments, andthen go back to teaching math,
you know, a way that createsthis.
You have to take that intoaccount and say,"Okay, what do
(40:03):
my kids need to be successful inthis class?
And that's the kind of teacherthat I need to be." Clearly,
there's a lot of math anxietyhere.
There's math trauma here, so weneed to choose activities that
are going to help them sharethat, but also overcome it,
right?
Like, I think, I do think numbertalks and number strings are the
(40:24):
best ways to get studentsovercoming that math anxiety,
right?
Vanessa Vakharia (40:28):
Pause.
I need you to pause.
I need you to tell me what bothof those things are and why you
think that.
Pretend someone's listening.
Not pretend, I mean, I'm surethere are people listening who
are like,"What is a number talk?
What is a number string?"
Juliana Tapper (40:39):
Yeah.
So number talk, I think of anumber talk as, like, when we
put up a problem.
The one I do in PD all the timewith teachers is 18 times five.
So the kids walk in, they justsee 18 times five, and we think
deeply about what are all thedifferent ways that students in
this classroom see 18 timesfive.
One kid's gonna say thealgorithm of stacking them on
top of each other.
One kid's gonna see, I see it as20 times five, and then I take
(41:02):
away two groups of five.
One kid's gonna say, I see it as10 times five and eight times
five, and I add that together.
You know, like, there's gonna bemultiple representations.
And, there's a quote from, oneof Jo Boaler's papers with Tonya
Lamar, Dr.
Tonya Lamar, where they say,it's like the You-cubed
perspective on specialeducation.
(41:22):
And they say that math anxietydisappears when we value the
different ways students thinkand reason.
And so can we pick activitiesthat help value the different
ways students think and reason?
so that's one thing that we cando as a next step.
We need to keep the math anxietylow by choosing activities that,
(41:43):
that aren't visuallyoverwhelming for kids.
So once we read this, we need tomake that decision.
I am not going to give a warm-upof 10 problems practicing what
we did yesterday.
I'm going to give one numbertalk of 18 times five and let
kids think deeply about 18 timesfive and value all the different
ways that I see thinking andreasoning happening.
And then we're gonna move on tothe grade-level content, right?
(42:04):
And we're gonna teach thegrade-level content how you
think your kids need to betaught the grade-level content
so that it makes sense for them.
And so yeah you gotta practicewhat you preach there..
Vanessa Vakharia (42:16):
Thank you, and I love that you just gave
everyone listening autonomy tobe like, however you think is
best to teach that, you go dothat.
Juliana Tapper (42:23):
You know, you read the stories.
You know what they, they, theyprobably need something
different.
How can you do somethingslightly different?
It doesn't, you know, have to beone extreme or the other.
Can we be shades of gray?
You know, whatever your kidsneed.
Vanessa Vakharia (42:36):
Well, and I love that too, because I
actually feel like lately I'vebeen hearing a lot of, like,
absolute thinking of, like,"Youhave to teach it this way," this
and that.
And I actually-- Everyone who'slistening, you guys are amazing
educators who care, and we knowmore than we think.
You have intuition, you haveemotional intelligence, like,
you are a proficient teacher.
(42:57):
So I love that we all loveprofessional development, and I
love that we all love learningfrom each other, but I want to
empower teachers, and I feellike that's exactly what you're
doing by being like,"You've gotthis," right?
You have the stories in front ofyou.
You are listening to yourstudents tell you what didn't
work for them, what they hated,what they came away thinking,
and where they are now.
And now you, you are themagician.
You have all the tools you needto go execute in the way that
(43:21):
you feel is best,'cause we trustyou
Juliana Tapper (43:23):
Yes.
Yes.
I think there is so much to besaid about empowering teachers.
Learn a toolbox of strategies,of instructional strategies, and
then you pick the tool that youneed for the job
Vanessa Vakharia (43:35):
Oh my God.
Okay, let me ask you as we wrapup here, what is one mistake
that you find well-meaningteachers make, and what's a
small shift that they could maketomorrow that might have a big
impact?
Juliana Tapper (43:47):
That's a really great question.
I think, I mean, honestly, Ithink the biggest mistake is
skipping the community piece.
We're so pressured as mathteachers to pacing guide, pacing
guide, pacing guide, have to getthrough an entire book, have to
teach every section of mytextbook, that we forget about
the importance of thatcommunity.
(44:07):
And in intervention, it's more,it, it, it's not optional.
It is a biologic prerequisite tolearning the math, and I think
that's the most overlooked pieceof intervention
Vanessa Vakharia (44:19):
Let me ask you this.
Like, I love this idea of e-especially in that intervention
time, doing activities likemathography.
I know you had a list of otherones that we didn't get to
because there are so many, butthey, we, we can find those in
your book, we can find that inmy book, like, there's stuff in
there.
Is there something small, like,if a teacher was like,"Okay,
fine, like, I get that I can doan activity, but what's a small
(44:39):
practice I can be doing everyday that builds community?" Is
there anything you would throwout there?
Juliana Tapper (44:44):
Hmm.
You know, having one of thosefive-minute warmup routines
where you are fostering buildingthat community, you are helping
them to value the different waysstudents think and reason.
All of that is gonna be sohelpful.
Vanessa Vakharia (44:59):
I think that's great because I think, I
actually think, I'm glad yousaid that because I feel like we
throw those routines out likethey're just like an icebreaker.
Like, and it's like no, it's somuch more than an icebreaker.
When you do a which one doesn'tbelong or a this or that, right?
Like something as simple as likewould you rather live without
your phone or without yourcomputer, or would you rather
use fractions or decimals,whatever.
(45:20):
This isn't just an icebreaker.
It gets students talking, and itgives you an opportunity to
evaluate thinking.
The second the activity starts,the second kids start speaking,
you can start dishing outcompliments, and the second you
start doing that, right, it'slike it gives you that
opportunity.
So I really love that.
And finally, you know, so manyteachers are carrying their own,
their own math trauma and theirown icky math stories, and while
(45:43):
they're trying to help studentsheal theirs.
Talk to the teacher who'slistening right now who's like,
"Oh my God, yes, I wanna do allthis stuff.
I have my own like so muchpent-up like negativity and
angst around math, and I wannamake sure that doesn't affect my
students while I'm in, in mathlab." What's one piece of advice
you would give them?
Juliana Tapper (46:03):
I think it would be to be honest with your kids
about that.
I think it would be to say,"Youguys, equations give me the ick,
and they were always really hardfor me.
I have had to relearn to solveequations so that I could teach
you.
So, like, I'm gonna try to teachyou in a way that made sense for
my brain right now, becausemaybe that'll make sense for
(46:25):
your brain." Like, just beingtransparent and human with your
kids, it, that's always okay todo, and I think that's always
the strong thing to do, is toUh, you don't have to say,"I
hate equations.
Here we go.
Let's learn'em." But you cansay, you can spin it to say,
"They have always been hard forme.
Vanessa Vakharia (46:43):
Here
Juliana Tapper (46:43):
what works for them to make sense to me.
Let me see if that helps you
Vanessa Vakharia (46:48):
I love that, and I feel like by being I feel
like that actually takes a lotof weight off of our shoulders.
Hopefully, for those of youlistening with your own math
trauma, you don't have to fakeit.
You don't have to pretend you'rethe expert.
You don't have to pretend youfeel good.
Being honest is gonna be one ofthe greatest tactics you can use
with your students, because itopens up the space for them to
be honest and to try just likeyou are.
Juliana Tapper (47:06):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (47:06):
You have been so amazing.
I mean, I have a million morequestions to ask you, but, a
million, a million and twoquestions to ask you.
And guys, you should knowJuliana is here with her own
experiences around math, right?
Like, you had a whole situationin grade four that we didn't
talk about, but let's just sayyou walked away with your own
math trauma.
(47:27):
Am I correct?
Juliana Tapper (47:27):
Absolutely
Vanessa Vakharia (47:28):
And she uses that every day to help those
around her build a betterrelationship with math.
So before I let you go, I haveto ask you the two questions I
ask everyone on the pod.
You have 30 seconds to answereach of them.
I know we hate a timed test, butalso too bad.
Okay, question number one (47:40):
If somebody was listening to this,
and they were like,"That's soawesome.
Oh my God.
Cool, I love it.
Just none of this is gonna workfor me, though, to be honest,
'cause I'm just not a mathperson," what's your response?
Juliana Tapper (47:52):
My response to them is,"You don't have to be a
math person.
You just have to show upauthentically to your kids and
try to do the next right thingfor your kids."
Vanessa Vakharia (48:03):
Oh my God, I love that.
I loved that.
Okay, I've- I'm all, like,stunned.
Okay, and finally, if there'sone thing you could change about
the way math is taught in schooltoday, what would it be?
Juliana Tapper (48:15):
I think it would be that we need to create
classrooms where no one is ableto sit in the back of the room
with hoodies up, earbuds on.
We need to create the kind ofclassrooms where participation
is had and expected from everysingle kid in the room so that
we're always getting thatfeedback from every single kid.
Vanessa Vakharia (48:37):
Okay, you should be in charge of every
school and maybe the world.
Thank you so much for being onthe pod.
You are amazing.
It was worth every single secondof waiting to get here, and I'm
so excited for everyone to hearfrom you.
Guys, to find all of Juliana'sstuff, hit the link in the show
notes.
Is there anything you want us toknow?
(48:57):
Where can we find things thatare related to you that everyone
needs to know?
Juliana Tapper (49:01):
On Instagram.
Vanessa and I chat all the timeon Instagram.
I'm@collaborated.with.julianaand my website
collaboratedwithjuliana.com
Vanessa Vakharia (49:09):
Okay.
Love you.
See you on the internet.
Juliana Tapper (49:11):
Love you.
Thank you
Vanessa Vakharia (49:16):
Ugh, guys, those mathographies still get me
all choked up.
But I love how Juliana helped ussee those as opportunities for
us to work with our students asa team, not just be their
teacher that, like, gives them agrade and moves on.
Also, something else justoccurred to me.
When we read what our studentswrite, we hear about their hopes
and fears.
The fear of not passing a classor not being able to change
(49:38):
their future, those translateinto what motivates a student.
And you know, teachers arealways telling me that students
seem unmotivated, but I deeplybelieve that it's because we
haven't tapped into what it isthat motivates them.
By asking students to write amathography, we have a shot at
gaining insight into whatmotivates them, so we can tap
into that in our teachingapproach and our practices and
(49:58):
our pedagogy.
And those mathographies are apowerful tool to help students
build trust with their teacherand with themselves.
And because I believe sostrongly in their power, I've
put a link in the show notes tosome mathography templates that
come straight from my book, MathTherapy.
A little gift to you, ourlistener, and all I ask in
return is that if you use them,let me know what you think by
(50:19):
texting the podcast.
The link to do that is also inthe show notes.
Math Therapy is hosted by me,Vanessa Vakharia, produced by
David Kochberg.
Our theme music is by our band,Goodnight Sunrise, and that is
all for this week.
See you next Thursday
it is important for teachers to share their own
mathographies.
I think especially elementaryteachers have maybe had more
emotional with math, a lot ofelementary teachers are like,
"Well, I don't wanna say that tomy kids." Say that to your kids.
Tell them your math history.
I start this activity by readingmy own and sharing my own math
anxiety, and immediately ithelps kids feel like,"Oh, this
(00:25):
is a safe place where I can alsoshare my math anxieties.
This is a safe space where I canalso share my math traumas." You
know, she's had somethingsimilar.
So if you have had some of thoseexperiences, share it with your
kids.
That's like the most powerfulhumanizing thing you can do with
your kids.
Vanessa Vakharia (00:42):
Hello, and welcome to another episode of
Math Therapy, guys.
I know I've been promising yousome top-tier guests, and let me
tell you, today I'm about todeliver.
Have you ever felt like mathclass legit needs an
intervention?
Like one of those dramatic moviescenes where everyone gathers
around and is like,"You cannotkeep doing this to yourself."
(01:03):
Well, today's guest, JulianaTapper, is an actual math
interventionist.
Like, she literally intervenesto make sure students don't fall
through the cracks in school.
And if you're like me, you'reprobably thinking,"Wait, what?
Why did this not exist when Iwas a student?" Well, it exists
now, and Juliana is here to talkto us about why a student might
(01:24):
need an intervention, how it canbe a successful intervention
instead of making things worse,and why it's crucial to find the
balance between filling in priorknowledge gaps while also
prioritizing what students arelearning right now at this exact
moment.
This convo honestly reallyopened my eyes to what it looks
like to actually supportstudents without making them
feel like they're at adisadvantage for simply needing
(01:47):
that help.
Oh, and you're gonna wanna havesome Kleenex nearby for this
one, because Juliana shares someof her students' actual math
stories.
Like, she reads out loud thewords they wrote, and it gets
pretty emotional.
As in, I cried, and you probablywill too.
Now, before we get into it,before we grab that Kleenex, let
me tell you, today is our lastTexas Instruments giveaway.
(02:10):
In case you missed it, a fewmonths ago, Texas Instruments
dropped their newest calculator,the TI-84 Evo, and people are
obsessed.
Like, that is an understatement.
The navigation on thiscalculator is a literal dream,
and because of, like, itsicon-based home screen, there's
no more endless scrolling tofind things, and it charges with
a USB-C cable like a normalphone, and it comes in seven
(02:31):
stunning colors and, like, it'sjust a total game changer.
Well, we're giving one final OhMy Math box away this episode,
which includes the calculator, afour-year online calculator
license, a getting startedguide, a calendar, and the
much-coveted plushie keychain ina mystery color.
Now, the response to the firstthree giveaways was insane, so
(02:53):
this time we're doing somethingsneaky, and it's kind of giving
treasure hunt.
At some point during thisepisode, I'm going to talk about
a band that I'm not a huge fanof.
It may shock you.
Please don't cancel me.
But do text us the name of thatband by hitting the link in your
show notes that says,"Send us atext." That is how you enter the
giveaway, by texting us the nameof the band.
(03:14):
That's it.
You're entered.
Okay, back to you grabbing yourKleenex, because it is time for
my conversation with JulianaTapper.
Wait, is it Juliana?
Yeah, right?
Juliana Tapper (03:26):
Aw-nah, yep.
I like to say Juliana like"iguana"
Vanessa Vakharia (03:29):
There we go.
Juliana Like Iguana, welcome tothe podcast.
Juliana Tapper (03:34):
Thanks for having me.
Vanessa Vakharia (03:35):
The coolest thing is that you call yourself
a math interventionist.
But it's not like you callyourself that, that is your job,
correct?
Like, that's a job.
Juliana Tapper (03:42):
yeah.
I feel like that is my job
Vanessa Vakharia (03:45):
Well, I say that because I feel like this is
a new thing.
Like, I know when I was inschool, there was no such thing
as a math interventionist.
I know it's not new new, like itstarted yesterday.
I'm sure a lot of our listenersare like,"Yeah, that's a thing."
I'm sure some of our listeners,especially those who are not
teachers themselves, are like,"I'm sorry, they have math
interventionists now?
(04:05):
I need a math intervention."Many people need a math
intervention.
So I actually wanna start byasking, tell us what it i- what
is a math interventionist?
Like, what is this job?
Juliana Tapper (04:14):
Yeah.
so I think there's, like, thetraditional math interventionist
role in schools, and then mine'ssort of like, since I work with
schools on, like, a contractbasis, like, they bring me in
for a certain number of days,mine's a little different.
So I think, like, in thetraditional sense, I hear the
term math interventionist a lotmore at the elementary level,
where it's, a teacher that isnot the core teacher that pulls
(04:39):
kids out of their coreclassrooms for a certain amount
of time each day, a couple timesa week, one time a week, where
they do math, you know,separately from their core
class.
that's traditionally how I seeit being used in elementary.
And in secondary, I was a highschool math intervention
(04:59):
teacher, so I guess I could havebeen a secondary math
interventionist, where I had aset-aside class.
My kids had two periods of math.
They had algebra one, and thenthey also had me for math
intervention.
And so again, it's like thatset-aside time for intervention
support.
Now in my roles with schools anddistricts, I will come in for a
(05:22):
certain amount of days, andmaybe we'll do professional
development.
Maybe we'll do some coaching,and help them just structure,
like, If you have the ability tohave a teacher that you have an
interventionist, how can we bestuse that role?
And so how can I help with,like, sort of the structural
support of how do we structurethat intervention period, and
(05:43):
also how do we structure thecore class to more effectively
intervene for the students whoare struggling in the core grade
level class?
Vanessa Vakharia (05:53):
Okay, so let me get this straight.
So let's say you have a gradesix classroom, right?
We've got the grade sixclassroom, a teacher's up there,
they're teaching the math, butthen we have this
interventionist that is going topull kids out of that classroom
Juliana Tapper (06:05):
I think at the secondary level in 6 through 12,
I think it's much less common tohave someone pull out.
So at the K-5 level, it's morecommon to have an
interventionist be pulling agroup of kids out.
the secondary level, I thinkit's much more common that it
would be an additional period,and that teacher would be an ad-
(06:25):
an additional math period inthat kid's day.
Vanessa Vakharia (06:29):
Okay, I get it.
So there are an additionalperiod in that kid's day to help
them with what they're learningin their core classroom.
Juliana Tapper (06:35):
That's the big question about math intervention
is what do we do in thatadditional time?
What do we do?
When I pull these kids out, whatdo I do?
Do I go back four grade levelsand teach them what they were
supposed to learn but didn'tlearn?
Or do I, what you just said, doI support them with what they're
doing in their core class?
Like, that is, it's the WildWild West in intervention, and
(06:57):
people are just like,"I don'tknow.
Try whatever you want."
Vanessa Vakharia (07:01):
So, okay, but we wanna know what you think.
Like, what, what...
Like, I feel like you obviouslyhave some opinions judging by
how wide your eyes are opening.
Okay.
Juliana Tapper (07:10):
I have so many opinions.
Vanessa Vakharia (07:12):
Okay, let's start hearing them.
Let's hear them.
Juliana Tapper (07:14):
I have been the teacher that teaches There's
like, there's two models ofintervention.
There's just-in-caseintervention and just-in-time
intervention.
Just-in-case is fully focused onre-teaching what they probably,
you know, didn't learn in priorgrades.
I like to think of it as like astreet with potholes, and every
(07:35):
pothole is something that a kidmissed in prior grade levels.
So our job as a just-in-case orintervention teacher is to go
through, like filling all thepotholes, just all this so that
they have a smooth road to gradelevel.
I like to think aboutjust-in-time intervention like a
staircase, where we're actuallygonna think of a staircase, and
we're gonna start our planningat the top step of that
(07:58):
staircase, and that's gonna bethe grade level content that
they're doing in their coreclass.
But I know that my students havesome gaps, some not yet's, that
they haven't yet mastered.
So I have to ask myself, to besuccessful at that grade level
content, what's maybe onescaffold or what's one kind of
s- prerequisite skill or contentthat they need in order to be
(08:20):
successful?
And we just keep going down thestaircase and making this
staircase of content.
So those are kind of the twointervention models.
So some interventionists aregonna pull groups or have this
additional period, and they'regonna completely use prior grade
level materials.
It might be a fifth grade andthey're pulling kindergarten,
first grade, second gradematerials, and they are fill-
(08:41):
trying to fill all those gaps,starting from the very lowest
gap to the gap closest to gradelevel.
A just-in-time or a just-in-timeintervention teacher is gonna
say,"Hey, core teacher, what areyou teaching in the core, in the
core content?" You know, in abest case scenario, it would be,
"What are you teaching in liketwo weeks?""Oh, in two weeks
(09:01):
you're teaching equations withvariables on both sides.
Okay.
That means this week in myintervention class, in my
intervention pullout, I need tofocus on combining like terms,
distributive property, one-stepequations, two-step, multi-step
equations." And so all of thatis technically prior grade level
content, but it is specificallyin support of what they're doing
(09:23):
in the core class.
And so it's like a very personalthing for me because I have been
asked to do both.
Like, I have done both.
In some of I've worked at threedifferent high schools as a math
intervention teacher, and atsome schools they asked me to do
just in case.
And at one school they asked meto do just in time.
And when I saw the growth of mykids from a just in time
approach to intervention, I waslike,"This is what the world
(09:46):
needs to hear."
Vanessa Vakharia (09:48):
So okay, this is reminding me, like I tutor,
that's my thing, And I run atutoring studio, and one of the
things I've always been so trueto, and this is like really
interesting to hear'cause I'mlike, oh my God, this is, this
is language I never would'veused.
But whenever parents are like,"Okay, my kid is so behind,"
this and that, they need tocatch up, I'm always like,"Cool.
(10:10):
We're going to catch them up,but we're going to catch them up
by doing what they're currentlydoing in class and filling in
whatever they need." We're notgonna be like,"Oh, they missed
stuff from, you know, like fouryears ago, and we're just gonna
teach it out of nowhere,"because it's completely
irrelevant to them.
So would I be calling that justin time?
Juliana Tapper (10:31):
Yes
Vanessa Vakharia (10:31):
So it's just in time because I'm teaching it
in time for what they need itfor.
Okay, oh my God.
And I do feel like obviouslyyou're the expert here, but I've
always intuitively done that.
That's what our tutors do.
That's what our whole service isbecause I'm like, first of all,
for it to be relevant for kids,for them to actually care, it's
like they're gonna care more ifthey're doing it in the
classroom as opposed to learningthis like seemingly disconnected
(10:52):
content, right?
Juliana Tapper (10:53):
100%.
And now there's actually, uh,there's a great research article
that you should read that we canmaybe link in the show notes
from TNTP.
They released this, don't It'snot really a study, but it's, a
paper that they released calledCoherence by Design.
And in it they talk about howdoes core instruction fit with
intervention time, fit withtutoring.
(11:14):
They actually mention tutoringas like, it's like a three-prong
approach to what moves kidsforward the most.
And they give the example of itneeds to be just in time.
It needs to be that the kids seethe point of what they're doing
in intervention, what they'redoing in tutoring, is having
something to do with theirsuccess in the core class.
(11:34):
Because at the end of the day,if they don't pass the core
class, if they're not seeingmovement in the core class,
they're gonna lose motivation
Vanessa Vakharia (11:43):
Okay, definitely we will link to that
in the show notes, and I wannaread that.
Juliana Tapper (11:46):
It's a great paper.
Vanessa Vakharia (11:47):
And, like, I think that is such a key thing
that you're touching on is thisidea of motivation, right?
Like, if we think about it, justthinking about intervention as a
whole, when do we haveinterventions?
Like, we have interventions,like, in movies with our
friends, right?
Like, it's like we need to planan intervention because
so-and-so has gone off the deepend or whatever.
Like, we have an interventionwhen there's a problem.
(12:08):
We're not just having anintervention, like, because we
feel like it.
So already, I'm assuming thekids who are being, who are part
of the intervention probablyaren't feeling so hot, right?
They're probably like,"Hmm,there's an issue, which is why I
either have this extra period orwhy, you know, this, you know,
Miss Tapper is taking me out ofclass right now," right?
Like, there's an issue.
So I'm imagining that with thesekids, they are already lacking
(12:30):
motivation and that they aren'tfeeling so great about their
math ability.
Can you tell us more about that?
Juliana Tapper (12:36):
Yes, that is exactly why I love your book and
I love your work so much,because it has to be a part of
the intervention conversation.
Like, we are essentially takingkids, like the kids know they,
you know, aren't, quote, good atmath.
The kids know that they arebeing pulled out in a special
(12:57):
class.
And I've had many conversationswith teachers,"Oh, should we
call it something else?" Like,what if we called our
intervention class likeaccelerated math?
You know, like what if we calledit advanced math or something?
But the thing is, when the kidsget in there and they see who
else is in here, they're gonnabe
Vanessa Vakharia (13:14):
Oh my God
Juliana Tapper (13:15):
"This is not...
Like, I'm in here with everyonewho has also been failing math
for many years."
Vanessa Vakharia (13:22):
Wait, hold on.
I'm actually dying thinkingabout rebrand, this idea of like
let's rebrand it, because Iactually love that idea, right?
Like, I love the idea of beinglike let's call it something
fun, but I think it's so funnythat like why would you go to
like let's call it somethingthat it clearly is not.
That's like gaslighting, no?
Juliana Tapper (13:39):
I have a hard time with it.
Like, on, on some levels I'mlike,"Oh, we should call it
advanced math," and just belike,"We're gonna adopt this
growth mindset, and hey, we areall advanced mathematicians in
here." Like, there is some partof that that I do really love,
Vanessa Vakharia (13:51):
Hmm
Juliana Tapper (13:52):
realities, at least thinking about it at h-
with high school kids who, Imean, I taught ninth grade, 10th
grade, 11th grade students whostill had not passed algebra
one.
And when we're talking aboutthat, they look around and they
know who's been with them onthis struggle train all through
school math.
(14:12):
And so maybe it would workbetter in, like, a K-5 setting.
I just, I don't personally seeit working well for high school
Vanessa Vakharia (14:20):
like, or like let's call it something, I
actually am with you that likemath intervention sounds bad.
Like, do you know what I mean?
Like, that does n- does notsound good.
It's like why don't we c- callit something like more chill,
like what, like Math Slay.
I don't know, like somethingmore like,
Juliana Tapper (14:36):
Most schools are calling it math lab
Vanessa Vakharia (14:41):
Oh, I actually don't hate, I don't hate that.
Juliana Tapper (14:43):
lab.
And so
Vanessa Vakharia (14:44):
I like that
Juliana Tapper (14:45):
extra lab time to do more math.
And I think, so, like, the mostimportant thing that you can do
as an interventionist, as anintervention teacher, is to help
kids have a positive experiencein a math class.
And it's like, like I have aframework in my book, the Break
It Math Intervention framework,and the B stands for build
(15:05):
community, because the rest ofthe framework is gonna crumble
if you don't take time to buildthat community, and that's
exactly what your whole book isabout.
Like, it's almost like yourwhole book is just like my first
step.
And so I feel like every teacherwho reads my book needs to read
your book because that's how youactually build the community and
help heal math trauma, helpexpose math anxiety.
(15:29):
All of that is part of thecommunity that students who have
historically been unsuccessfulin math need.
Like, they need to recreate whatit means to be in math class,
and we're asking them to be in,for a lot of secondary kids, and
even K-5 that get pulled out,we're asking them to do math
twice a day.
Vanessa Vakharia (15:49):
Hmm.
Juliana Tapper (15:50):
A lot, and this is a subject that they have
trauma around.
This is a subject they haveanxiety around.
And we're saying,"Oh, great.
Let's just make you do that twotimes a day."
Vanessa Vakharia (16:00):
So, what, okay, this is a really, really
interesting point, right?
And I think this is something wereally need to consider, because
from our perspective, we'relike,"We're providing you extra
support," right?
Which is, like, so nice we'redoing this thing.
But from their perspective,they're like,"Oh, great, so now
I've gotta do this thing I hatetwice a day instead of just
once.
Like, I've gotta do more of it."So in addition to teaching
(16:21):
content, which is obviously,like, the fo- you know, the
primary focus of these mathlabs, I actually really love
calling it that, it is to, is toteach them content and
competencies with their skills.
But as you said, there's thiswhole other piece, right?
And I always say, like, youknow, you can have the best
content and pedagogy in theworld, but if a student is doing
the emotional equivalent ofhyperventilating into a paper
(16:43):
bag, they're not getting it.
So, like, now you have them inthere for that second time of
the You have them.
What is the mindset piece?
Like, how do you start workingon their identity around
mathematics so that they canabsorb this new content?
Juliana Tapper (16:57):
We do all of the activities from your book.
That class, that class is wherewe do all the activities from
your book.
Spread them out over the year.
You know, like whatever it needsto be so that these students can
build that positive mathidentity in that classroom.
Even if you don't get to a tonof content, I think, and it
(17:18):
really depends.
Like I said, intervention is theWild Wild West.
What I keep seeing a lot of inmiddle schools is they'll have
intervention, but it's, for 30minutes once a week.
I don't know what administratorthink that that is going to
change test scores.
And so whenever a teacher comesto me and they say,"I have
intervention, but it's 30minutes once or twice a week,"
(17:39):
and I've only seen this atmiddle schools, but I've seen
this at a number of middleschools now, I say,"A, you need
to be real with youradministrator that this is not
gonna move test scores forward.
And B, my only goal for thatclass is to help kids have a
positive math experience." Iwould do that by exploring their
math identities, exploring theirmath trauma, having them share
(18:00):
about their math anxieties.
And I love doing, like, thesecond step on my framework, is
routines that boost confidence.
We need to do things like whichone doesn't belong, same and
different, notice and wonder.
I would say in that interventiontime, those structures need to
be, like, the warm-ups everysingle day.
Vanessa Vakharia (18:18):
So I'm hearing a couple of things here, and I
wanna make sure we're clear.
Like, you know, we kinda startedthis conversation by talking
about just-in-time andjust-in-case intervention, and
to me, that seemed a bit morecontent-focused, right?
Like, what content are weteaching them at what times?
Oh, we wanna be teaching themcontent that's relevant to what
they're currently doing in theclassroom.
But now that we've moved along alittle bit, I hear you kinda
(18:40):
being like, content might noteven be the most important thing
you're doing in intervention.
Am I getting that right?
Juliana Tapper (18:45):
I think it depends on how much time you
have for the intervention,
Vanessa Vakharia (18:49):
Right.
Juliana Tapper (18:50):
with them every day, right, like in a middle
school situation or a highschool situation where they have
you for a full additionalperiod, you see them every day
just as much as they see theircore teacher.
In that, I, I think it is reallyimportant that we are content
focused, that that is thepriority.
But in these random, like, I seeyou once or twice a week for
(19:13):
minutes, it feels moreunrealistic to me that we're
gonna get to a ton of meaningfulcontent in that timeframe.
And I used to also think that,oh, well, okay, well,
just-in-time intervention, Ihave to be on this trajectory
towards grade level content,but, know, my students in
algebra one, I'm gonna get themto solving quadratics.
(19:35):
I'm gonna get them to using thequadratic formula.
We are gonna get there.
And the reality is also mystudents struggle with
foundational skills likemultiplication, adding and
subtracting negative numbers.
So a lot of times secondaryteachers especially will say,
"Well, I can't teach quadraticfunctions because my kids can't
multiply." And so withjust-in-time intervention, that
(19:55):
feels really uncomfortable forthose teachers because they're
like,"You're telling me I haveto be on this trajectory towards
quadratic functions, but mystudents are struggling with
foundational skills." And soit's not that with a
just-in-time approach we can'tbring in foundational skills,
it's more like could we donumber talks?
Could we do number strings?
Could we do ways that practicethose foundational facts in a
(20:17):
way that's, building theirnumber sense as opposed to
memorization and a focus onspeed?
And can we do those forwarm-ups?
Can we do, can we do that once amonth or twice a month can we
focus on some number sense, butthen the rest of the time we're
focused on that trajectorytowards grade level content?
Does that help?
Vanessa Vakharia (20:39):
It does, it does.
It's just like it feels sooverwhelming in a way, right?
Like,'cause I think what you're,like what It, it almost like
points to the root of theproblem for all of us that we're
struggling with, which is liketime, right?
And it's like, how do youprioritize that time?
Like, what's the most importantthing to do?
What's gonna move the dial themost?
And like, I think while it's, itsounds like there's no one
answer, it obviously is casedependent and depends how often
(21:00):
you have these students, itdepends on the student.
Like, fine, let's not focus onexactly what you should be doing
with the time, but I do wannatalk about something that you've
brought up quite a few times,which is that mindset is
sometimes the most importantthing, right?
It's like if you have no time,focus on mindset.
If you have more time, great,focus on content and mindset.
But never, never once duringthis conversation are you like,
(21:21):
"Yeah, you know what?
Just scrap all You should focuson content is the number one
thing." I'm not hearing you saythat, and that's what I'd love
to talk about, because I thinkwe have this misconception that,
mindset work, relationship withmath, the emotional component of
learning, that's the thing to doif you happen to have extra time
at the end.
And I'm always like, it's themost important thing you need to
do, because if you don't havethat, like if a student is shut
(21:43):
down, if they're in one of thetrauma responses and they're
just like,"Nope, I can't do it,"no matter what content or
pedagogy or curriculum you have,they're never gonna get that.
So I hear you saying that, and Iwould love to hear maybe one of
like i, I think you and I havetalked about how we both love
doing that mathography activity.
I would love to hear maybe howyou interweave math
(22:04):
therapy-esque work into yourintervention, and what things
actually move the dial.
I'm always like preaching aboutwhy I think it's so important,
but I would love to hear fromyou why you're like,"No, it's
important because..."
Juliana Tapper (22:16):
It is so important.
Like, I just laughed so hardwhen I opened your book, and I
had already submitted my book tomy publisher, and I opened your
book, and I see mathography, youknow, very early on in your
book.
And I'm like,"That's hilarious,"because it's also, you know,
like in chapter three of mybook.
And of, of course, there, it's alittle different take on it.
(22:37):
I love to do a mathography aslike the very first, like,
homework assignment.
Like, that is the first thingthat I'm gonna give my kids.
It is the first thing I gave mykids.
I like to spend time the firstweek doing a couple of
activities.
Like, I have, like, fouractivities that I recommend,
teachers always start with.
So mathography, I love itbecause there is some research
(23:00):
around when students write theirmath anxieties, they're actually
freeing more working memory intheir brains.
And like you said, if they're inone of those trauma responses,
the ability to recall and retainand problem-solve is severely
diminished.
Like, I think of building thiskind of community that you
outline in your book, that Ioutline in my book, that it's a
(23:22):
biologic prerequisite tolearning.
Like,
Vanessa Vakharia (23:24):
Hmm.
I love that
Juliana Tapper (23:26):
biologic prerequisite to They will not
learn.
Like, we're always like,"Whycan't they remember their math
facts?
Why can't they remember theirmultiplication tables?" Well, if
their brain is in a fear statewhile we're trying to teach them
their multiplication tables, th-that's why they can't remember
it, you know?
Like, their ability to recalland retain is diminished.
And so with the mathography,they're able to share that.
(23:47):
They're able to get it off theirchest.
They're able to get it out oftheir brain so that more working
memory is freed up, and then youas the teacher can respond to
their mathography and they feelseen.
They feel,"Oh, my teacher seesmy greatest anxieties about this
class, and she validated meanyways."
Vanessa Vakharia (24:04):
Okay, and I wanna just back up for those of
you listening who are like,"Whatthe fuck is a mathography?" A
mathography is where you writeyour math story.
The general idea is you're like,it's like a biography, but a
mathography.
Tell me your math story, right?
So, like, what is it?
What's the vibe?
And from that, students startwriting, right?
They start writing down,"Well,this thing happened, that thing
happened, I felt like that." Itoften unleashes it from within,
(24:26):
where they haven't even talkedabout it or thought about it.
It also gives us the opportunityas educators to see where a
student's math trauma lies,right?
They can't always articulate it,but we can see it through story.
So here's what I'm thinkingright now, because I know you
have some other things you do.
We're gonna get to those laterbriefly.
I wanna focus on themathography, because for me too,
it is one of the firstactivities in my book.
(24:47):
It- You'll even see, if you pickup my book, I ask you to write
your own, because I am withJuliana.
There's nothing more powerfulthan telling your math story.
And for you guys who know me,you know that when somebody says
to me,"I'm not a math person,"or,"I hate math," my first
response is always, what do Itell you guys to say?
I tell you guys to say,"Huh,interesting.
Do you, did you have, like, anegative experience with math?
(25:09):
Like, what, tell me about it."And that is essentially what
you're doing with themathography, and what comes out
is always way more valuable thanwhatever you wanted to say to
them in the first place, right?
We wanna hear from the person infront of us.
So Juliana has a fewmathographies in front of her,
and I would love for you to,like, share one or two with us.
Juliana Tapper (25:29):
Yes.
So in case anyone's watching, Iprinted two actual student
mathographies that, I wassupporting a school for their
summer school work and theirremedial Algebra 1 summer
course.
And so these were all kids thathad just failed Algebra 1 as a
ninth grader, and their recoveryteacher asked them to write
their mathographies'cause wewere working together.
(25:50):
And so the student said, so I'mjust gonna read these.
"Hated all my math teachers.
Never understand the work.
Sucked at math sincekindergarten.
My highest grade in math for thepast years has been a 26%.
Already gave up on math.
Never going to figure it out.
Don't expect to figure outanything new, only here so I can
graduate on time.
(26:10):
Don't truly think I'm going topass or learn anything.
I'm a lost cause.
If I were a teacher, I'd give upon me."
Vanessa Vakharia (26:17):
Oh my God, that actually makes me so
emotional like, what do you dowhen you read something like
that?
Juliana Tapper (26:25):
Right
Vanessa Vakharia (26:27):
Yeah.
That's like, oh my God, like,and I think it's interesting too
'cause it's like so many of uswould be observing that student
being like,"Ugh, they're sounmotivated," you know,
whatever.
And it's like, then you hearthis and you're like,"Well,
fuck.
I would be really unmotivatedtoo, like, that's not even the
right word to be using here.
Juliana Tapper (26:46):
And I think you hit on it.
Like, I think from that, thatspecific matho- right?
Every mathography is different.
From that specific mathography,I think a huge part of that that
I gained from that kid's storyis motivation.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:02):
Well, and also, like, I would be listening
to that, and I'd be like,"Oh myGod," like, that last line, if I
was my teacher, I would've givenup on him, too," like, I think
I'd read that and be like,"I amnot gonna be the next teacher
that gives up on this kid." Youknow?
Like, it's like, first of all,as an educator, I feel like it
mo- it like, you know, it sparkssomething in you.
(27:23):
But also, like, now you have anapproach with him that is gonna
be so different
Juliana Tapper (27:28):
I also wanted to say, I think maybe yes do right
now would be we can both gothrough and say if, if that were
to be, you know, this is themathography that your kid turned
into you as your first homeworkassignment, what are you gonna
write on their sheet here?
Like, what would your feedbackbe?
I could say what my feedbackwould be, and then we can move
on to the next one and do itagain.
Vanessa Vakharia (27:48):
I love this activity.
Okay, wait, I wanna hear yoursfir- you go first.
So wait, wait, this is actuallya good que- this is a good
question, is, is this how youassign it?
You assign it, they do theirthing, and then you're gonna
write feedback on there?
Are you gonna arrange a meetingwith them, or are you just gonna
write them feedback?
Juliana Tapper (28:04):
Me personally, class with, w- I mean, my
biggest class one year was,like, 42 kids,
Vanessa Vakharia (28:10):
Got it
Juliana Tapper (28:11):
I'm gonna write the feedback, and then I make
sure to hand it back to them thevery next day so they
immediately can read myfeedback.
So on here, I would say, am sosorry you've had such a negative
experience with math." like, asI I'm just, like, trying to look
back down to this.
Like,"I'm, I'm so sorry you'vehad a negative experience with
(28:31):
math.
I absolutely want to change thisfor you.
I believe that you can do mathin this class, and I'm gonna do
everything I can to help you getthere.
Let me know how I can help you."I would I think that's where I
would go with it.
What would your response be tothis kid?
Vanessa Vakharia (28:46):
Okay.
Well, I just cried, so I guess,like, a bit emotional.
I guess I would be like, yeah, Ithink I would write something
like,"Oh my God." I think I'd belike,"OMG.
I'm so sorry that this has beenthe experience you've had.
It's totally not your fault.
This isn't about you." A- Ithink for me, and I know you
actually have something similar,I'd be like,"I failed grade 11
(29:09):
math twice.
I can totally relate, and I feltthe same way, and I felt like
all my teachers hated me, too.
I believe in you, and I knowthat you can have a better
experience with math, and Ican't wait to figure out how
we're gonna make that happentogether." And I think, I mean,
obviously, it depends.
I feel like with this one, Imean, if I had a pile of 40 of
these, it would be different,but you know, some of them are
different than others.
(29:29):
This, to me, seems, like, sosevere.
I think I'd be like,"Let's havea one-on-one chat." I think I'd,
like, wanna talk to this kid.
Now, again, we only have so muchtime, and again, if you have a
pile of 40 similar ones, that'sgonna change the tone.
But if I have, like, 20 thatare, like, you know, a little
more chill, and then I had thisone, I might be like, I need to,
(29:49):
like, look this kid in the eyeand be like,"Dude, like, we've
got this.
Juliana Tapper (29:54):
Yes.
I will say from experience,having done this exact activity
with my kids year after year,you know, it wasn't necessarily
in my class of 42, but in myintervention classes of 20, 25,
it was like 20, 25 of
Vanessa Vakharia (30:08):
Yeah.
Of these, yeah.
Juliana Tapper (30:09):
You know, we're talking about 9th grade, 10th
grade that have not passed amath class since passing math
class became a thing when theystarted, middle school, and so
it's lot of baggage.
Vanessa Vakharia (30:25):
So what happens next?
Like, you actually had thisstudent, right?
This is your student.
Juliana Tapper (30:29):
This was the teacher, like I was supporting a
teacher in her recovery classfor the summer.
So we read these together.
You know, I met with her aftershe gave this assignment, and we
read them together.
She was gonna write thefeedback, hand them back to the
kids.
And I think an interesting thingthat came out of this one is
this kid remembered, hespecifically wrote,"my highest
(30:52):
grade has been a 26%." That isinsanely specific, that a kid
would be so aware of theirpercentage in a math class.
Like, there's something there tounpack grades impact motivation,
how grades impact how kids feelabout math, you know, all of
(31:13):
that.
And so I think that's like a, akind of another side
conversation.
Also, it is important forteachers to share their own
mathographies.
I think especially elementaryteachers have maybe had more
emotional with math, and somet-a lot of elementary teachers are
like,"Well, I don't wanna saythat to my kids." Say that to
your kids.
Tell them your math history.
(31:35):
I start this activity by readingmy own and sharing my own math
anxiety, and immediately ithelps kids feel like,"Oh, this
is a safe place where I can alsoshare my math anxieties.
This is a safe space where I canalso share my math traumas." You
know, she's had somethingsimilar.
So if you have had some of thoseexperiences, share it with your
kids.
That's like the most powerfulhumanizing thing you can do with
(31:56):
your kids.
Vanessa Vakharia (31:57):
I totally agree, and I think like
especially in math class whereso many of us now are trying to
be like,"We need to let them,you know, we want them to make
mistakes.
We want them to da, da, da," youhave to remember kids are coming
into your classroom with ahistory of math class that has
told them the opposite.
They have been told theopposite.
You shouldn't be vulnerable.
You should always be right.
You shouldn't ask questions.
You should always know the rightanswer.
(32:18):
You're gonna get in trouble ifyou know the right answer.
So we are, like Juliana said, weare trying to provide them with
new math experiences that changethe way they feel, right?
That are literally rewiringtheir reaction to math class.
The best way to do that, it, itis through not just saying to
them,"Don't worry, mistakes areokay," but by sharing a story
(32:39):
from your past about yourselfthat illustrates that you truly
believe in that philosophy,right?
Like, so I think that is really,really important, and I think
this is I really love thisexercise of like, where do we go
from here?
They've- you've assigned theassignment.
They've written the mathography.
You've given the feedback.
Let's do one more, because Iwanna do this.
I, I, I would love to engage inanother like let's read what
(33:01):
they say, let's see what both ofour feedback would be, and then
I want to talk about like whatthen happens.
Juliana Tapper (33:07):
Yes, let's do it.
Okay, here's number two.
"I really don't rememberanything from kindergarten.
I actually can't rememberanything from any grade, so I'm
kinda cooked, but I really wantto change my future." It's like
you know this was writtenfreshly.
but that's an importantsentence.
"But I really want to change myfuture.
I struggle with school ingeneral, so I feel like I might
(33:30):
fail summer school as well, andthis feels like a waste of time
for you to teach me."
Vanessa Vakharia (33:35):
It's so crazy that in both of these, like, the
student is so- is, like, lookingout for the teacher.
Like, do you know what I mean?
Like, it's- it shows such adegree of empathy.
This is making me emotional toonow.
I mean, like, I'm just beinglike, this, this kid is, like,
taking this from their ownshitty feeling to be like,"And
I'm so sorry," right?
Like, which again, really to mehighlights the dynamic, like,
(33:59):
the weird power dynamic we'veset up in classrooms since, you
know, the beginning of time,where, like, these students are
so, like, subservient to us,and, like, don't Like, I get
that we're in- you know, we arethe adult in the room.
But I think there's a couplethings.
I think this one, th- whatstands out as a stark difference
is this one gives me a littlebit of hope.
The student is like,"I wannachange my future." Like, they
(34:20):
don't know how, and, like, theyfeel kind of bad that you're
taking the lead, but there's alittle bit of like,"I want to
make a difference," whereas thef- the one we read before this
was just, like, end of the roaddefeat.
Like, it was like there wasn'teven a hope in hell.
So I think with this one, Ithink I would probably write
something like"it totally sucksto feel like you're starting so
(34:40):
behind, but let me just, like,assure you you're not too far
behind." Like, again, I wouldpr- I would probably always be
like,"I failed grade 11 mathtwice," like, you know what I
mean?
"There's always a way.
I'm so excited that, like, youwanna change your future,
because I'm the perfect personto help you do that." And I
think I'd be like,"This, youknow, challenge accepted.
Teaching, you know, teaching youand, like, helping you change
(35:02):
your relationship with math isnot a burden.
It's, like, such an honor to me,and I can't wait to, like,
embark on this journeytogether."
Juliana Tapper (35:07):
Yeah,
Vanessa Vakharia (35:08):
I like what you said in that last one where
you were like,"Let me know how Ican help you." I feel like a
really important conversation isbeing like,"I'm really open to
working on this together.
Like, I can't wait to hear whathelps and what doesn't," right?
Like,"I wanna, like, you know, Iwanna work together.
Like, I- this isn't just gonnabe a top-down approach." Okay,
what would you say?
What would you say?
Juliana Tapper (35:28):
I, I think similarly with this one, like,
as I look back at it, I justthink I would affirm, like,
thank you for sharing that ithas been a struggle.
I'm gonna do everything I can tomake this as painless as
possible for you to be able topass summer school and move on
to change your future.
You know, I want to help youachieve your dreams.
(35:50):
I think,'cause I agree with you,this one does have more hope,
and I think it's reallyinteresting, like, both of these
students talked about,"I'm onlyhere so I can graduate on time,
and I really want to change myfuture." And they see that math
is the connection point forthat.
They see that math isresponsible for helping them
(36:14):
graduate on time, that math isresponsible for helping them
change their future.
And I think sometimes as mathteachers, we don't realize the
power that we have as mathteachers.
Like, math is, you know, quote,the gatekeeper subject.
These kids clearly know it.
You know, without even beingtold about gatekeeping they know
that math is the gatekeepersubject.
(36:34):
They know they have to pass thisclass to be able to graduate, to
be able to change their future.
And I think sometimes when wethink about, as math teachers,
and specifically if we're a mathteacher who loves math and has
always loved math, we tend tothink about, well, I want my
kids to be motivated by thebeauty of math, by how cool
numbers come together, byproblem-solving.
(36:55):
But if we look at these kids'mathographies, their motivation
is passing the class andchanging their future.
And I think as teachers, wekinda need to be aware of what
our personal motivations aboutlearning math might be, may not
be the same motivations that ourkids have, and we gotta, we
gotta play in both lanes'causewe have to speak to their
(37:16):
motivations if we wanna bringthem up on this road.
Vanessa Vakharia (37:20):
Ugh, that is so powerful, and actually it
makes me think of, you know,whenever w- like, you know how
we, there's such a strong focuson being like,"We need real life
math and relevant math," and I'malways like, things being
relevant have nothing to do withtheir concreteness on the
physical plane, right?
Like, things, for something tobe relevant to a student, it has
to mean something to them rightnow, and guess what means
(37:41):
something to these studentsright now?
Passing your class.
I also think there's a reallyinteresting tie there of like
passing your class being amotivation is a really good
gateway.
If you're like,"Ugh, like I wantthem to care about more than
that," first of all, like toobad.
Work, work with what you've got.
But also that idea of passingyour class as a motivation,
(38:01):
right?
Busting through a gatekeeper isso empowering.
Once they see they can do that,that leads to a whole other
conversation about hopes anddreams and resilience and
getting places and what they'reactually capable of.
So like capitalize on that, andlike honestly, not everybody has
to be into the beauty and wonderof math.
People talk about this in musicall the time.
Like, they're like,"But jazz,it's so fucking cool," and like
(38:24):
this and that, and I'm like,"Guys, I don't know what to
fucking tell you.
I don't like jazz.
I don't appreciate it.
I'm sure it's so beautiful.
Like, I get it, like blah, blah,blah, like scatty, scatty,
whatever they're doing, like thekey changes.
Like, it doesn't speak to me.
I don't find it beautiful.
I don't find it exciting." Justlike I think The Beatles are one
of the most overrated bands ofall time.
David is rolling his eyes, and Isaid it.
(38:45):
I like them, guys, just so youknow.
They're, I like them.
I appreciate what they've donefor pop culture.
I don't wanna sit around andlisten to them.
I just don't.
I don't love The Beatles, okay?
Okay, Sorry.
Juliana Tapper (38:57):
Confession on the Math Therapy pod.
Vanessa Vakharia (38:59):
But the point is, right, like I think what
you're saying is so apt.
It's like there are many inroadsinto helping a student build a
better relationship with math.
Yes, the wonder and beauty ofmathematics is one of those
inroads.
Tapping into their personalmotivation though is another
one, and probably a moreimmediate one, depending on what
their motivation is, right?
(39:20):
So like I really like that youbrought that up.
Okay, so let's now, I mean, Icould go on and on because I
love, this is actually such afun game.
But once we're done here, sothey have, you've assigned the
mathography.
They've written out their thing.
You've provided feedback.
What happens now from yourperspective in terms of using
this information to help themlearn math?
Juliana Tapper (39:43):
Now you have to actually practice what you
preach.
Now you have to get up there andyou can't just do a mathography,
make these kind comments, andthen go back to teaching math,
you know, a way that createsthis.
You have to take that intoaccount and say,"Okay, what do
(40:03):
my kids need to be successful inthis class?
And that's the kind of teacherthat I need to be." Clearly,
there's a lot of math anxietyhere.
There's math trauma here, so weneed to choose activities that
are going to help them sharethat, but also overcome it,
right?
Like, I think, I do think numbertalks and number strings are the
(40:24):
best ways to get studentsovercoming that math anxiety,
right?
Vanessa Vakharia (40:28):
Pause.
I need you to pause.
I need you to tell me what bothof those things are and why you
think that.
Pretend someone's listening.
Not pretend, I mean, I'm surethere are people listening who
are like,"What is a number talk?
What is a number string?"
Juliana Tapper (40:39):
Yeah.
So number talk, I think of anumber talk as, like, when we
put up a problem.
The one I do in PD all the timewith teachers is 18 times five.
So the kids walk in, they justsee 18 times five, and we think
deeply about what are all thedifferent ways that students in
this classroom see 18 timesfive.
One kid's gonna say thealgorithm of stacking them on
top of each other.
One kid's gonna see, I see it as20 times five, and then I take
(41:02):
away two groups of five.
One kid's gonna say, I see it as10 times five and eight times
five, and I add that together.
You know, like, there's gonna bemultiple representations.
And, there's a quote from, oneof Jo Boaler's papers with Tonya
Lamar, Dr.
Tonya Lamar, where they say,it's like the You-cubed
perspective on specialeducation.
(41:22):
And they say that math anxietydisappears when we value the
different ways students thinkand reason.
And so can we pick activitiesthat help value the different
ways students think and reason?
so that's one thing that we cando as a next step.
We need to keep the math anxietylow by choosing activities that,
(41:43):
that aren't visuallyoverwhelming for kids.
So once we read this, we need tomake that decision.
I am not going to give a warm-upof 10 problems practicing what
we did yesterday.
I'm going to give one numbertalk of 18 times five and let
kids think deeply about 18 timesfive and value all the different
ways that I see thinking andreasoning happening.
And then we're gonna move on tothe grade-level content, right?
(42:04):
And we're gonna teach thegrade-level content how you
think your kids need to betaught the grade-level content
so that it makes sense for them.
And so yeah you gotta practicewhat you preach there..
Vanessa Vakharia (42:16):
Thank you, and I love that you just gave
everyone listening autonomy tobe like, however you think is
best to teach that, you go dothat.
Juliana Tapper (42:23):
You know, you read the stories.
You know what they, they, theyprobably need something
different.
How can you do somethingslightly different?
It doesn't, you know, have to beone extreme or the other.
Can we be shades of gray?
You know, whatever your kidsneed.
Vanessa Vakharia (42:36):
Well, and I love that too, because I
actually feel like lately I'vebeen hearing a lot of, like,
absolute thinking of, like,"Youhave to teach it this way," this
and that.
And I actually-- Everyone who'slistening, you guys are amazing
educators who care, and we knowmore than we think.
You have intuition, you haveemotional intelligence, like,
you are a proficient teacher.
(42:57):
So I love that we all loveprofessional development, and I
love that we all love learningfrom each other, but I want to
empower teachers, and I feellike that's exactly what you're
doing by being like,"You've gotthis," right?
You have the stories in front ofyou.
You are listening to yourstudents tell you what didn't
work for them, what they hated,what they came away thinking,
and where they are now.
And now you, you are themagician.
You have all the tools you needto go execute in the way that
(43:21):
you feel is best,'cause we trustyou
Juliana Tapper (43:23):
Yes.
Yes.
I think there is so much to besaid about empowering teachers.
Learn a toolbox of strategies,of instructional strategies, and
then you pick the tool that youneed for the job
Vanessa Vakharia (43:35):
Oh my God.
Okay, let me ask you as we wrapup here, what is one mistake
that you find well-meaningteachers make, and what's a
small shift that they could maketomorrow that might have a big
impact?
Juliana Tapper (43:47):
That's a really great question.
I think, I mean, honestly, Ithink the biggest mistake is
skipping the community piece.
We're so pressured as mathteachers to pacing guide, pacing
guide, pacing guide, have to getthrough an entire book, have to
teach every section of mytextbook, that we forget about
the importance of thatcommunity.
(44:07):
And in intervention, it's more,it, it, it's not optional.
It is a biologic prerequisite tolearning the math, and I think
that's the most overlooked pieceof intervention
Vanessa Vakharia (44:19):
Let me ask you this.
Like, I love this idea of e-especially in that intervention
time, doing activities likemathography.
I know you had a list of otherones that we didn't get to
because there are so many, butthey, we, we can find those in
your book, we can find that inmy book, like, there's stuff in
there.
Is there something small, like,if a teacher was like,"Okay,
fine, like, I get that I can doan activity, but what's a small
(44:39):
practice I can be doing everyday that builds community?" Is
there anything you would throwout there?
Juliana Tapper (44:44):
Hmm.
You know, having one of thosefive-minute warmup routines
where you are fostering buildingthat community, you are helping
them to value the different waysstudents think and reason.
All of that is gonna be sohelpful.
Vanessa Vakharia (44:59):
I think that's great because I think, I
actually think, I'm glad yousaid that because I feel like we
throw those routines out likethey're just like an icebreaker.
Like, and it's like no, it's somuch more than an icebreaker.
When you do a which one doesn'tbelong or a this or that, right?
Like something as simple as likewould you rather live without
your phone or without yourcomputer, or would you rather
use fractions or decimals,whatever.
(45:20):
This isn't just an icebreaker.
It gets students talking, and itgives you an opportunity to
evaluate thinking.
The second the activity starts,the second kids start speaking,
you can start dishing outcompliments, and the second you
start doing that, right, it'slike it gives you that
opportunity.
So I really love that.
And finally, you know, so manyteachers are carrying their own,
their own math trauma and theirown icky math stories, and while
(45:43):
they're trying to help studentsheal theirs.
Talk to the teacher who'slistening right now who's like,
"Oh my God, yes, I wanna do allthis stuff.
I have my own like so muchpent-up like negativity and
angst around math, and I wannamake sure that doesn't affect my
students while I'm in, in mathlab." What's one piece of advice
you would give them?
Juliana Tapper (46:03):
I think it would be to be honest with your kids
about that.
I think it would be to say,"Youguys, equations give me the ick,
and they were always really hardfor me.
I have had to relearn to solveequations so that I could teach
you.
So, like, I'm gonna try to teachyou in a way that made sense for
my brain right now, becausemaybe that'll make sense for
(46:25):
your brain." Like, just beingtransparent and human with your
kids, it, that's always okay todo, and I think that's always
the strong thing to do, is toUh, you don't have to say,"I
hate equations.
Here we go.
Let's learn'em." But you cansay, you can spin it to say,
"They have always been hard forme.
Vanessa Vakharia (46:43):
Here
Juliana Tapper (46:43):
what works for them to make sense to me.
Let me see if that helps you
Vanessa Vakharia (46:48):
I love that, and I feel like by being I feel
like that actually takes a lotof weight off of our shoulders.
Hopefully, for those of youlistening with your own math
trauma, you don't have to fakeit.
You don't have to pretend you'rethe expert.
You don't have to pretend youfeel good.
Being honest is gonna be one ofthe greatest tactics you can use
with your students, because itopens up the space for them to
be honest and to try just likeyou are.
Juliana Tapper (47:06):
Yes.
Vanessa Vakharia (47:06):
You have been so amazing.
I mean, I have a million morequestions to ask you, but, a
million, a million and twoquestions to ask you.
And guys, you should knowJuliana is here with her own
experiences around math, right?
Like, you had a whole situationin grade four that we didn't
talk about, but let's just sayyou walked away with your own
math trauma.
(47:27):
Am I correct?
Juliana Tapper (47:27):
Absolutely
Vanessa Vakharia (47:28):
And she uses that every day to help those
around her build a betterrelationship with math.
So before I let you go, I haveto ask you the two questions I
ask everyone on the pod.
You have 30 seconds to answereach of them.
I know we hate a timed test, butalso too bad.
Okay, question number one (47:40):
If somebody was listening to this,
and they were like,"That's soawesome.
Oh my God.
Cool, I love it.
Just none of this is gonna workfor me, though, to be honest,
'cause I'm just not a mathperson," what's your response?
Juliana Tapper (47:52):
My response to them is,"You don't have to be a
math person.
You just have to show upauthentically to your kids and
try to do the next right thingfor your kids."
Vanessa Vakharia (48:03):
Oh my God, I love that.
I loved that.
Okay, I've- I'm all, like,stunned.
Okay, and finally, if there'sone thing you could change about
the way math is taught in schooltoday, what would it be?
Juliana Tapper (48:15):
I think it would be that we need to create
classrooms where no one is ableto sit in the back of the room
with hoodies up, earbuds on.
We need to create the kind ofclassrooms where participation
is had and expected from everysingle kid in the room so that
we're always getting thatfeedback from every single kid.
Vanessa Vakharia (48:37):
Okay, you should be in charge of every
school and maybe the world.
Thank you so much for being onthe pod.
You are amazing.
It was worth every single secondof waiting to get here, and I'm
so excited for everyone to hearfrom you.
Guys, to find all of Juliana'sstuff, hit the link in the show
notes.
Is there anything you want us toknow?
(48:57):
Where can we find things thatare related to you that everyone
needs to know?
Juliana Tapper (49:01):
On Instagram.
Vanessa and I chat all the timeon Instagram.
I'm@collaborated.with.julianaand my website
collaboratedwithjuliana.com
Vanessa Vakharia (49:09):
Okay.
Love you.
See you on the internet.
Juliana Tapper (49:11):
Love you.
Thank you
Vanessa Vakharia (49:16):
Ugh, guys, those mathographies still get me
all choked up.
But I love how Juliana helped ussee those as opportunities for
us to work with our students asa team, not just be their
teacher that, like, gives them agrade and moves on.
Also, something else justoccurred to me.
When we read what our studentswrite, we hear about their hopes
and fears.
The fear of not passing a classor not being able to change
(49:38):
their future, those translateinto what motivates a student.
And you know, teachers arealways telling me that students
seem unmotivated, but I deeplybelieve that it's because we
haven't tapped into what it isthat motivates them.
By asking students to write amathography, we have a shot at
gaining insight into whatmotivates them, so we can tap
into that in our teachingapproach and our practices and
(49:58):
our pedagogy.
And those mathographies are apowerful tool to help students
build trust with their teacherand with themselves.
And because I believe sostrongly in their power, I've
put a link in the show notes tosome mathography templates that
come straight from my book, MathTherapy.
A little gift to you, ourlistener, and all I ask in
return is that if you use them,let me know what you think by
(50:19):
texting the podcast.
The link to do that is also inthe show notes.
Math Therapy is hosted by me,Vanessa Vakharia, produced by
David Kochberg.
Our theme music is by our band,Goodnight Sunrise, and that is
all for this week.
See you next Thursday
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